[hugin-ptx] when to sharpen?

2012-09-11 Thread TvE
This probably an FAQ, but I couldn't find an answer: when do you sharpen 
spherical panoramas? Before compositing (i.e. sharpen the original images) 
or afterwards, and if so, using what type of projection (I need to output 
equirectangular in the end)?

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Re: [hugin-ptx] when to sharpen?

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Postle
On 11 Sep 2012 07:54, TvE tvoneic...@gmail.com wrote:

 This probably an FAQ, but I couldn't find an answer: when do you sharpen
spherical panoramas? Before compositing (i.e. sharpen the original images)
or afterwards, and if so, using what type of projection (I need to output
equirectangular in the end)?

Sharpening doesn't survive remapping very well, so you should apply it to
your final image at the intended display resolution. So for a cubic
panorama it is the individual cubefaces that you sharpen etc...

-- 
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Re: [hugin-ptx] when to sharpen?

2012-09-11 Thread Rogier Wolff
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 04:09:50AM -0400, Bruno Postle wrote:
 Sharpening doesn't survive remapping very well, so you should apply it to

Right! It looks to me that the remapping takes the average of two
surrounding pixels, on average. 

i.e. with an image that COULD map 1 to 1, every source pixel will
still be smeared out over two destination pixels minimum. (or the
other way around: every destination pixel is the average of two source
pixels). 

If my math intuition is good, the -0.5 2 -0.5 convolution is the
inverse of 0,1,1,0. Such a convolution might be possible to build into
the remapping operation to keep the images as sharp as the original.

The core of the problem is that you want to prevent aliasing
effects. It is quite possible that 50 source pixels map to 49
destination pixels. This means that at one point (say at 0 and 49
destination pixels) they line up perfectly. While at another (that
would be around 25 pixels) each destination pixel is halfway inbetween
two source pixels. 

If you do it the obvious way, you'd just copy pixels 0, 1, 48, 49 to
get a sharp image, but near pixels 24 and 25 you'd have to take the
average of 24, 25 to get destination pixel 24, and then average 25,26
to get destination pixel 25. This would probably lead to visible
artefacts. So there is some smart stuff in there to take a similar
average near the point where just copying would be more obvious.

I've described things as if they are one-dimensional. Things get a bit
more complicated in two dimensions.

Roger.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Help aligning multiple panoramas

2012-09-11 Thread panfun
Thanks for your reply, Carlos.

Aligning the resulting equirectangular projections is an option, but I was 
hoping to avoid having to filter the images twice, so as to keep the most 
sharpness.

Cheers,

lensfun

On Monday, September 10, 2012 5:18:53 AM UTC-7, Cartola wrote:

 Have you tried to align them after they are finished? Don't know if this 
 is the best option, but I did it in this case here:

 http://wp.me/p1AGa0-ih

 The second picture was taken more than one year after the other and I 
 aligned the two equirectangular at the end. I did it manually into hugin, 
 but it is probably an easy task to automate.

 Cheers,

 Carlos E G Carvalho (Cartola)
 http://cartola.org/360
 http://www.panoforum.com.br/



 2012/9/10 panfun stuffa...@gmail.com javascript:

 Hi,

 I just started using hugin recently, and while I've been reading a lot, I 
 could use some help/guidance from the experts here.

 Case at hand:
 I have multiple 360 panoramas, taken from the same position, at different 
 times of day, using a motorized head.
 However, there are slight rotation differences between each set of 
 pictures (and probably the whole rig moved a little bit).

 I have a papywizard template that I've used to set up a generic .pto to 
 read in Hugin. Now, I can go in and add CPs, optimize, etc, and get a good 
 panorama for each one of the sets, but if I do each one separately, they 
 are all slightly different (in rotation, but also different areas get 
 warped differently).
 Ultimately, I'd need all panoramas to line up perfectly with each other.

 Ant tips for the best way to go about that? I've tried extracting 
 rotation differences for each set, and then using that to modify the master 
 .pto file to create a rotated one for each set. But by the time I add CPs 
 and optimize, I still get panoramas that don't line up with each other.

 Help! and Thanks!

 panfun


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Re: [hugin-ptx] Help aligning multiple panoramas

2012-09-11 Thread panfun
Hmm, not sure why my previous message got deleted.

Here it is again:

Thanks, Carlos. 
Aligning the resulting equirectangular projections is indeed an option, but 
I was hoping to find a way to do it within the stitching process, to avoid 
loosing any quality by double-processing the source images.
Something like, solve one panorama, and then use its orientation and CPs as 
a constraint to solve the others.

Is something like that possible?

Thanks again,
lensfun


On Monday, September 10, 2012 5:18:53 AM UTC-7, Cartola wrote:

 Have you tried to align them after they are finished? Don't know if this 
 is the best option, but I did it in this case here:

 http://wp.me/p1AGa0-ih

 The second picture was taken more than one year after the other and I 
 aligned the two equirectangular at the end. I did it manually into hugin, 
 but it is probably an easy task to automate.

 Cheers,

 Carlos E G Carvalho (Cartola)
 http://cartola.org/360
 http://www.panoforum.com.br/



 2012/9/10 panfun stuffa...@gmail.com javascript:

 Hi,

 I just started using hugin recently, and while I've been reading a lot, I 
 could use some help/guidance from the experts here.

 Case at hand:
 I have multiple 360 panoramas, taken from the same position, at different 
 times of day, using a motorized head.
 However, there are slight rotation differences between each set of 
 pictures (and probably the whole rig moved a little bit).

 I have a papywizard template that I've used to set up a generic .pto to 
 read in Hugin. Now, I can go in and add CPs, optimize, etc, and get a good 
 panorama for each one of the sets, but if I do each one separately, they 
 are all slightly different (in rotation, but also different areas get 
 warped differently).
 Ultimately, I'd need all panoramas to line up perfectly with each other.

 Ant tips for the best way to go about that? I've tried extracting 
 rotation differences for each set, and then using that to modify the master 
 .pto file to create a rotated one for each set. But by the time I add CPs 
 and optimize, I still get panoramas that don't line up with each other.

 Help! and Thanks!

 panfun


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Re: [hugin-ptx] Help aligning multiple panoramas

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Postle
On 10 September 2012 22:08, panfun stuffandc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Aligning the resulting equirectangular projections is indeed an option, but
 I was hoping to find a way to do it within the stitching process, to avoid
 loosing any quality by double-processing the source images.
 Something like, solve one panorama, and then use its orientation and CPs as
 a constraint to solve the others.

Just put all your photos for all panoramas in one project and align
them together. Then stitch it several times, enabling one set of
photos at a time.

Though the loss of data from remapping a second time is negligible, so
I wouldn't worry about this very much.

-- 
Bruno

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Re: [hugin-ptx] when to sharpen?

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Postle
On 11 September 2012 10:03, Rogier Wolff rew-googlegro...@bitwizard.nl wrote:
 On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 04:09:50AM -0400, Bruno Postle wrote:
 Sharpening doesn't survive remapping very well, so you should apply it to

 If my math intuition is good, the -0.5 2 -0.5 convolution is the
 inverse of 0,1,1,0. Such a convolution might be possible to build into
 the remapping operation to keep the images as sharp as the original.

Artificially 'sharpened' images are a special case, you don't find
this kind of data in 'normal' photos, these don't really suffer any
loss of focus in the standard remapping used by Hugin.

-- 
Bruno

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Re: [hugin-ptx] when to sharpen?

2012-09-11 Thread Rogier Wolff

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:38:55AM +0100, Bruno Postle wrote:
 On 11 September 2012 10:03, Rogier Wolff rew-googlegro...@bitwizard.nl 
 wrote:
  On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 04:09:50AM -0400, Bruno Postle wrote:
  Sharpening doesn't survive remapping very well, so you should apply it to
 
  If my math intuition is good, the -0.5 2 -0.5 convolution is the
  inverse of 0,1,1,0. Such a convolution might be possible to build into
  the remapping operation to keep the images as sharp as the original.
 
 Artificially 'sharpened' images are a special case, you don't find
 this kind of data in 'normal' photos, these don't really suffer any
 loss of focus in the standard remapping used by Hugin.

IMHO, when I click optimal size it recommends a size where each
source pixel maps to at least one remapped pixel. Bluntly said: If I
take three portrait 2500x4000 images and align them next to each
other, my optimal size will have a height of 4000 pixels (plus
whatever is needed because they don't align perfectly).

In this situation, I have the impression I can clearly see that the
remapped images are softer, fuzzier than the originals.

Roger. 

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Re: [hugin-ptx] HDR panorama - how to make it with Hugin?

2012-09-11 Thread Carlos Eduardo G. Carvalho (Cartola)
Have you seen this tutorial?

http://hugin.sourceforge.net/tutorials/enfuse-360/en.shtml

Cheers,

Carlos E G Carvalho (Cartola)
http://cartola.org/360
http://www.panoforum.com.br/



2012/9/11 AKS-Gmail-IMAP aksei...@gmail.com

 I am not an expert at all in this but I can say I've done it both ways as
 you say. I've first HDR merged the bracketed shots using an outside program
 and then used Hugin to stitch the pano. More recently in one similar to
 yours in number of shots and homemade panohead I threw all the images into
 Hugin using a manual process that split the control point matching into two
 categories. I control point matched the bracketed image trios within each
 trio. So for example for the normal exposure image A the corresponding -A
 and +A exposure images had control points matching only to image A.  The
 second matching category matched control points amongst all the normal
 exposure images. The matching was done manually in all cases as I found the
 automatic feature produced way to many points that utterly swamped the
 calculations. I am sure there are all sorts of Hugin parameters to automate
 or avoid much of this method or to create the pano as should be done in a
 totally different fashion. The result of the last mentioned method was very
 good.


 On Sep 10, 2012, at 9:36 AM, GigiG pierluigi.gio...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi all, until now I enjoyed with some panoramas with Hugin and I would
 like to know how to proceed further in order to obtain an HDR panorama. I'm
 rather confused on this and I don't know how to use Hugin correctly. In
 principle I have a series of Nikon .NEF raw images, 3 bracketed shots
 (1.7EV step) for each of the 28 panorama shots taken with a selfmade simple
 panohead (10 shots for the first row, 8 for the +\-45° second and third
 rows each, one zenith and one nadir, at 18mm focal length), for a total of
 84 images. Now, what should I do with Hugin to merge the bracketed shots
 and combine the panorama? Is it possible to do everything togheter in
 Hugin? or do I need to merge every 3 bracketed shots before (using another
 tool like Picturenaut) and then make the panorama in Hugin with the
 resulting 28 HDRIs? If the resulting panorama will be an HDR image, how can
 be visualized? Ii normally use DevalVR for viewing panos. Thanks.

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Help aligning multiple panoramas

2012-09-11 Thread Carlos Eduardo G. Carvalho (Cartola)
2012/9/11 Bruno Postle brunopos...@googlemail.com

 Though the loss of data from remapping a second time is negligible, so
 I wouldn't worry about this very much.


I share this opinion.

Another option (besides stitch all toguether as Bruno said) is to use the
equirectangular just to align the next set of images, keeping it as anchor
and don't stitch it again.

Cheers,

Carlos E G Carvalho (Cartola)
http://cartola.org/360
http://www.panoforum.com.br/

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[hugin-ptx] Re: missing areas in equirectangular projection

2012-09-11 Thread T. Modes
  This looks similar to an older bug with the masking code.  Can you
  send the .pto project so we can confirm it? (no need to send the
  photos).

It's not related to the masking code. The issue with the posted
project is the use of the translation parameters. If the images go
over the 180° border the translation parameter does not work. This is
a limitation of the currently chosen approach.
Set all translation parameters to 0 and work without translation.

Or if you need to use the translation use the proposed workaround:

  A workaround might be to rotate the whole panorama 90° down and
  stitch the panorama with the nadir in the centre.  Then you can load
  this single image in another Hugin project and flip it back.

Thomas

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[hugin-ptx] Hugin nominee for project of the month

2012-09-11 Thread T. Modes
Hugin has been nominated for the project of the month October by
sourceforge.
See http://sourceforge.net/blog/potm_102012_vote/

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[hugin-ptx] Re: missing areas in equirectangular projection

2012-09-11 Thread T. Modes
 I'm seeing a similar problem in 2012.0.0RC1 (2012.0.0.0fc00635e11f built
 by Matthew Petroff). I'm attaching the project file.

Same issue here. Your nadir image has non-zero translation parameters.
Set the translation parameters for the nadir image to 0.

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[hugin-ptx] Re: missing areas in equirectangular projection

2012-09-11 Thread TvE
Thomas, can you clarify what you mean by go over the 180 degree border? 
Do you mean that I have a panorama that covers more than 180 degrees in 
some direction? Or that some images cross the nadir or the zenith point? Is 
there some explanation of what the limitation of the currently chosen 
approach is?
Thanks!


On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:10:37 AM UTC-7, T. Modes wrote:

   This looks similar to an older bug with the masking code.  Can you 
   send the .pto project so we can confirm it? (no need to send the 
   photos). 

 It's not related to the masking code. The issue with the posted 
 project is the use of the translation parameters. If the images go 
 over the 180° border the translation parameter does not work. This is 
 a limitation of the currently chosen approach. 
 Set all translation parameters to 0 and work without translation. 

 Or if you need to use the translation use the proposed workaround: 
  
   A workaround might be to rotate the whole panorama 90° down and 
   stitch the panorama with the nadir in the centre.  Then you can load 
   this single image in another Hugin project and flip it back. 

 Thomas 


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Re: [hugin-ptx] when to sharpen?

2012-09-11 Thread dgjohnston

With any image processing it is always recommended that sharpening is the last 
thing you do. Any adjustments after that affect the perception of sharpness 
that the eye sees.
 
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld

-Original Message-
From: Felix Hagemann felix.hagem...@gmail.com
Sender: hugin-ptx@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:49:42 
To: hugin-ptx@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: hugin-ptx@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [hugin-ptx] when to sharpen?

On 11 September 2012 08:54, TvE  wrote:
 This probably an FAQ, but I couldn't find an answer: when do you sharpen
 spherical panoramas? Before compositing (i.e. sharpen the original images)
 or afterwards, and if so, using what type of projection (I need to output
 equirectangular in the end)?

I've been experimenting with the projection to do the sharpening on
quite some time ago. I was mainly trying to sort out if there is a
practical difference between:
(i) Sharpening the final equirectangular. In theory this should be a
bad idea due to the messed up neighbourhoods near the poles.
(ii) Create six rectilinear 90x90 images, sharpen those and reassemble
to an equirectangular.

While the difference images showed some very minor differences I was
unable to distinguish the images created by those two methods
visually. I've been sharpening equirects ever since...

Felix

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: missing areas in equirectangular projection

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Postle

On Tue 11-Sep-2012 at 11:52 -0700, TvE wrote:


Thomas, can you clarify what you mean by go over the 180 degree border?
Do you mean that I have a panorama that covers more than 180 degrees in
some direction? Or that some images cross the nadir or the zenith point?


The mosaic/translation code maps photos into a flat surface.  You 
can think of this surface as a 'virtual' rectilinear photo that sits 
exactly in the middle of the panorama canvas.  This virtual 
rectilinear photo can be used as part of a 360° spherical panorama, 
but it still has to be in the middle, and it has to be less than 
180°.


So you can include a multiple-viewpoint mosaic of a wall mural in a 
360° panorama, but the middle of the panorama canvas, the 'view 
direction', has to be pointing at the nearest part of the mural, 
perpendicular to the wall.


Similarly you can include a view of the ground taken from multiple 
viewpoints into a 360° panorama, but the nadir has to be in the 
middle of the canvas, not at the bottom.  This isn't too much of a 
problem, it is a simple process to load the equirectangular output 
into a new Hugin project and level it.



On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:10:37 AM UTC-7, T. Modes wrote:


  This looks similar to an older bug with the masking code.  Can you
  send the .pto project so we can confirm it? (no need to send the
  photos).

It's not related to the masking code. The issue with the posted
project is the use of the translation parameters. If the images go
over the 180° border the translation parameter does not work. This is
a limitation of the currently chosen approach.
Set all translation parameters to 0 and work without translation.


--
Bruno

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Re: [hugin-ptx] when to sharpen?

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Postle

On Tue 11-Sep-2012 at 13:09 +0200, Rogier Wolff wrote:

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:38:55AM +0100, Bruno Postle wrote:


Artificially 'sharpened' images are a special case, you don't find
this kind of data in 'normal' photos, these don't really suffer any
loss of focus in the standard remapping used by Hugin.


IMHO, when I click optimal size it recommends a size where each
source pixel maps to at least one remapped pixel. Bluntly said: If I
take three portrait 2500x4000 images and align them next to each
other, my optimal size will have a height of 4000 pixels (plus
whatever is needed because they don't align perfectly).

In this situation, I have the impression I can clearly see that the
remapped images are softer, fuzzier than the originals.


Are these photos sharpened?

You can see this effect by drawing a one pixel line in an image, 
then remapping it in Hugin, it will become 'fuzzy', but remap it 
again and it won't get any fuzzier.  Real, unsharpened, photos don't 
have hard edges like this, there is always a transition between two 
colours - This is nothing to do with the quality of the lens.


--
Bruno

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Re: [hugin-ptx] Re: missing areas in equirectangular projection

2012-09-11 Thread TvE
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 1:28:11 PM UTC-7, Bruno Postle wrote:

 On Tue 11-Sep-2012 at 11:52 -0700, TvE wrote: 

 Thomas, can you clarify what you mean by go over the 180 degree border? 
 Do you mean that I have a panorama that covers more than 180 degrees in 
 some direction? Or that some images cross the nadir or the zenith point? 


 Similarly you can include a view of the ground taken from multiple 
 viewpoints into a 360° panorama, but the nadir has to be in the 
 middle of the canvas, not at the bottom.  This isn't too much of a 
 problem, it is a simple process to load the equirectangular output 
 into a new Hugin project and level it. 


I tried doing this for a *spherical* panorama and wasn't particularly 
successful. Basically, from the conventional equirectangular projection 
showing the main feature area I applied a 90 degree tilt to bring the nadir 
into the center. But if I optimize after that with translation enabled I 
still get garbage. Is that what you suggested, and if not, can you provide 
concrete steps or an example?

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