Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Alan Altmark]

On Tuesday, 08/29/2006 at 09:51 GMT, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >Defining an operating system according to its usefulness is a waste of 
time.
> 
> That I disagree with!
> Usefulness is the only indicator.
> 
> If it's not useful, why would I purchase it?

LOL, Ted!  :-)  You would only purchase something if you find it useful, 
of course. 

In the words of Lewis Carroll:
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it 
means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' 

Since we cannot agree on what an "operating system" is, we cannot hope to 
agree on it's shape, size, weight, speed (laden or unladen), or, in this 
discourse, usefulness.  I find operating systems immensely *valuable* 
since they enable all kinds of *useful* applications.  But by my 
definition of "operating system", it is not useful by itself.  It just 
sits there and contemplates its cybernetic navel.

I contend that when you bought "z/OS" you did not buy an operating system. 
 Rather, you bought a data warehouse, a transaction processor, security, 
scalability, reliability, world-class support, expandability (hey, the h/w 
is there, too!), and all the other "inherent mainframe coolness" (TM) from 
which you derive business value.  The operating system itself was not the 
driving force.  All the stuff around it (e.g. CICS) is where the action 
is.

Likewise, when someone sees the business value of large-scale, flexible, 
server consolidation or test environments, they turn to z/VM because it is 
the world's most scalable and flexible provider of virtualization 
services.  They didn't say "Ooooh!  Ah!  CMS!  Way cool!".  :-)

Ruh roh!  The cooler is empty again!!!

Alan Altmark
z/VM Development
IBM Endicott

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Ted MacNEIL]

>The definition of "Operating System" should not depend on the usefulness of a 
>particular instance.  The definition shouldn't even depend on the 
*existance* of an instance - any instance.

Too Zen for me.
What is the sound of one disk IPLing?

If an OS is not useful, why am I using it?
The purpose of a computer is to automate and (unfortunately) reduce head-count.

That is the reason I purchase it!

When in doubt.
PANIC!!

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:51:56 +, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>Defining an operating system according to its usefulness is a waste of 
time.
>
>That I disagree with!
>Usefulness is the only indicator.
>
>If it's not useful, why would I purchase it?
>...

"Defining an operating system..."  "Defining", not "using", not "buying".

The definition of "Operating System" should not depend on the usefulness
of a particular instance.  The definition shouldn't even depend on the 
*existance* of an instance - any instance.

Pat O'Keefe 

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Defining an operating system according to its usefulness is a waste of time.

That I disagree with!
Usefulness is the only indicator.

If it's not useful, why would I purchase it?
When in doubt.
PANIC!!

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Re: VSAM CLOSE failure problem

[Andy Wood]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:11:27 -0500, Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

. . .

>
>parmlist for close req
>8000 11AA3C10
>

Show the expansion of the CLOSE macro.
Is R1 getting cleared to indicate MODE=31? If not, it would be trying to 
close an ACB at location zero (and something else must be causing the 
SC03).

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Alan Altmark]

On Tuesday, 08/29/2006 at 08:07 GMT, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> If you define the OS as just BCP, then you are going to have a lot of 
things 
> that you cannot do.
> So, if you expand the definition to BCP, JES2, all the utilities and 
tools 
> needed to keep it runnning, you can expand it to VTAM, TCP/IP, TSO, 
ISPF, SMP, 
> and keep going.
> 
> There are (many) valid cases for including/excluding certain 
sub-systems.
> But, I would go  with all the ('free') stuff that is bundled inside 
z/OS, and 
> covered by that single licence, as a start.

Defining an operating system according to its usefulness is a waste of 
time.  (Depending on your definition of "operating system", "usefulness" 
and "waste", of course!)

Academically, I cannot call z/VM an operating system, either.  CP, yes. 
CMS, yes.  GCS, yes.  Each with different levels of sophistication and 
capability.  But z/VM, like z/OS, is the name of a *product* that IBM 
sells.  From a *packaging* perspective, these products contain one or more 
operating systems, a collection of utilities, applications, and 
documentation.  The best part is that everyone knows what I mean when I 
say "z/VM".  Having to say "You know, the software offering from IBM that 
includes CP, CMS, GCS, AVS, TSAF, DVF, SES, ..., and TCP/IP" would just be 
too exhausting.

z/OS is the same thing.  It's the name of a collection of widgets that 
some people find moderately useful.  ;-)

"Windows" is the same.  The public's definition of "OS" and that of my 
Operating Systems professor in college are miles apart.

Alan Altmark
z/VM Development
IBM Endicott

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Welcome back (was Dups)

[Patrick O'Keefe]

Ever notice how some people think they they can sneak back without anyone
noticing the absence?  You need a name like "Smith" to achieve that.

Welcome back.

Pat O'Keefe

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Ergo, an OS is . . .
>
>...what z/OS do?

Or:
Do that voodoo you do so well!

The definition is never going to be nailed down properly.

If you define the OS as just BCP, then you are going to have a lot of things 
that you cannot do.
So, if you expand the definition to BCP, JES2, all the utilities and tools 
needed to keep it runnning, you can expand it to VTAM, TCP/IP, TSO, ISPF, SMP, 
and keep going.

There are (many) valid cases for including/excluding certain sub-systems.
But, I would go  with all the ('free') stuff that is bundled inside z/OS, and 
covered by that single licence, as a start.

When in doubt.
PANIC!!

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Re: DSORG=IS

[Ted MacNEIL]

>of course the corollaries UNIT=AFF and AFF=

(Sorry about the previous blank post. Something about fat fingers and a 
BlackBerry keyboard).

I use UNIT=AFF all the time dumping SMF from multiple archive tapes.

When in doubt.
PANIC!!

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Re: DSORG=IS

[Ted MacNEIL]

>
When in doubt.
PANIC!!

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Re: z/OS 1.7 Enhanced ACIF

[Mark Jacobs]

On Tuesday 29 August 2006 13:49, Kok, Howi wrote:
> Hi All,
> I'm trying to put together our order for z/OS 1.7 before time runs out.
> One thing that confuses me is the Enhanced ACIF pgm no 5655-M32.  Does
> anyone know if I don't put this in the order list will I still get ACIF?
> The IBM partner that I'm working with could not get an answer from IBM.
> This is quite frustrating.  For those of you who are already on 1.7
> perhaps can guide me out of this confusion.  Thanks a lot.
>
> Howi Kok

PSF V4 only ships with enhanced ACIF, which is a charge product. If you don't 
order it you will not get the "freebee" ACIF.

-- 

Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Tampa, FL

-

b.i.b.a.w.y.l.o. and i.w.w.y.t.b.w.

Brian Smith to his wife Maureen 
To Sail Beyond the Sunset

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:59:35 EDT, IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>...
>And how did you manage to do all the PITA work necessary?  Did you  start
>JES2, then TSO (needs JESx alive to get started), then update files,  
then run
>batch jobs (needs JESx to start) or started tasks (needs JESx to  start) 
to test
>out your changes?  Or did your MSTR subsystem arrive  already pre-
customized
>like that from IBM?
>...

But that's all beside the point.  You have a pretty locked-down MVS without
JES and TSO (although I know some Roscoe bigots that would argue that last
point), but you still have a usable operating system.  You can still run
start tasks under MSTR and they work just fine without JES and TSO.  In 
fact HASP and ASP per comopletely separate addons in the olden days, and
wasn't available at all.  (Pre-MVS but definitely not pre-OS.)

Pat O'Keefe 



>My point is you can't do any meaningful work without some means of  
starting
>a process (JESx) that either interacts with you (TSO) or at least  reads 
card
>images from some device (JESx), so that you can do the necessary  PITA 
work.
>After having used JESx to help you do all the work to  customize the 
system,
>then you can run TSO from MSTR, but not as the system  comes from IBM.
>
>Bill  Fairchild
>
>
>
>
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Re: JCL - Copy Tape

[Ed Gould]

On Aug 29, 2006, at 5:47 AM, R.S. wrote:
--SNIP



I was wrong. I confused block count field of HDR1/EOF1/EOV1 with  
block size field of HDR2/EOF2/EOV2. Indeed, zero's means you should  
read bytes 71-80 for block size. BTW: ADRDSSU does not use LBI, but  
writes 64kB blocks. It always sets block size as 0. That's why  
ADRDSSU dumps cannot be copied using "legal" methods, like IEBGENER.





Unless you specify dcb=blksize=32760, IIRC.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Edward Jaffe]

john gilmore wrote:
There was consensus only about the usual operational definition, 
'Mathematics is what mathematicians do'.


Ergo, an OS is . . .


what OS-ticians do? :-)

--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: >27x132?

[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:42:59 +0200, Chris Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

In the past (in other venues like the old TalkLink) I've joked about the
length and complexity of Chris's append to threads on various fora.  Well,
he's now shown that isn't always the case.  Sometimes they are short.  But
you get 47 of them. :-) 

>...
>Once within the SNA session, you are stuck with the dimensions determined
>when the session was started. If, somehow, the device or emulator detects
>that there has been a change of dimensions, a sense code is available to
>warn the application that all is not as it should be, one of 082A, 082B or
>084A.
>...

I was thinking about that.  Nothing forces LUs to abide by characteristics
specified in the BIND.  If the LUs were in collusion they could agree on a
technique for redefining the presentation space dimensions at will.  This
would take them out of the standard 3270 datastream, though, so they
would be able to communicate with with LUs designed around the 3270
datastream.  In general, flexable but pretty useless.  

Pat O'Keefe

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Thompson, Steve (SCI TW)]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of john gilmore
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 2:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

There was consensus only about the usual operational definition, 
'Mathematics is what mathematicians do'.

Ergo, an OS is . . .

...what z/OS do?

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Craig Mullins]

But Mr. Gates sure did try to make IE part of the OS, didn't he?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Walt Farrell
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 1:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

On 8/29/2006 2:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The core functions have grown over the years, and the OS has gotten
more 
> complex as things like 31 bit and 64 bit came along. What does your
own 
> experience lead you to believe is necessary and not...and we come back
to 
> it depends. If I have a CICS user, then CICS is part of his or her OS 
> cloud. 

I will agree that if you require CICS, then your system must have CICS 
on it.  That does not make it part of the OS, however.

If you require Firefox for some reason on your Windows box, that does 
not make Firefox part of Windows, after all, and Bill Gates would 
certainly object if you claimed it did.

Walt

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[john gilmore]

Attempts at definitions like this one are seductive, but they always fail.

I was at the ICM in Madrid last week, and there was a session called 'What 
is Mathematics?'.


There was consensus only about the usual operational definition, 
'Mathematics is what mathematicians do'.


Ergo, an OS is . . .

John Gilmore
Ashland, MA 01721-1817
USA

_
Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!  
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG


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DSORG=IS

[Phil Payne]

I shall mourn its passing, but not for long.  There was a very good article in 
Datamation more
years ago than I like to remember entitled: "The hidden speed of ISAM".

In the late days of MVT, someone collected around forty different ways of 
breaking into key 0.
When MVS came out I got regular reports on how many had been closed off - the 
ones that hung
around the longest were ISAM tricks.

More recently the Germans said: "ISAM is langsam, VSAM is grausam."

The two JCL parameters (long obsolete, but still tolerated) that I found 
confused many people
were SEP= and UNIT=SEP= (and of course the corollaries UNIT=AFF and AFF=

These days the W3 people used the term "deprecated" for such old rubbish.

-- 
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.co.uk
  +44 7833 654 800

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Daniel A. McLaughlin]

that's the whole point, your OS is what you and your customers perceive it 
to be. 

This would be a great topic about 11:00 PM Thursday at a certain social 
gathering at Share...too bad I can't be there to fuel it.




Daniel McLaughlin
ZOS Systems Programmer
Crawford & Company
PH: 770 621 3256
*









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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Walt Farrell]

On 8/29/2006 2:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The core functions have grown over the years, and the OS has gotten more 
complex as things like 31 bit and 64 bit came along. What does your own 
experience lead you to believe is necessary and not...and we come back to 
it depends. If I have a CICS user, then CICS is part of his or her OS 
cloud. 


I will agree that if you require CICS, then your system must have CICS 
on it.  That does not make it part of the OS, however.


If you require Firefox for some reason on your Windows box, that does 
not make Firefox part of Windows, after all, and Bill Gates would 
certainly object if you claimed it did.


Walt

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Daniel A. McLaughlin]

It all becomes one big philosophical debate based upon where you sit. I've 
worked on OS/MFT, OS/MVT, VS1, MVS/SP, ESA, XA, OS/390, and Z/OS.

The core functions have grown over the years, and the OS has gotten more 
complex as things like 31 bit and 64 bit came along. What does your own 
experience lead you to believe is necessary and not...and we come back to 
it depends. If I have a CICS user, then CICS is part of his or her OS 
cloud. If it's a NOMAD user, or SAS, PL/1, COBOL, FORTRAN, or HLASM, that 
would be part of that percieved universe.

It begins to sound like the blind men trying to describe an elephant based 
on touch.




Daniel McLaughlin
ZOS Systems Programmer
Crawford & Company
PH: 770 621 3256
*









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Re: >27x132?

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 8/29/2006 10:48:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

My  recollection is that the 2260 and every monochrome 3270 before the
3290 was  green.




>>
Part of SHARE and IT in general is Human Factors. Ergonomics, color, tilt,  
tactile feel, neutral hand and eye position, abbreviated command structure are  
analyzed for cause and effect. For many years IBM had a Human factors lab in  
Almaden, but don't know if they still do. PARC and Alan Kay analyzed in 
detail  the 'modern office' and laid the ground work for much how we work today.
 
Joan Winters from SLAC head the Human Factors projects at SHARE for many  
years and usually took home the prize for best session. IIRC the green screen  
was for IBM monitors. Other vendors, Memorex, GRID, and a few others  extended 
the research into more efficient phosphors(persistence) and had other  colors 
available. 

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Re: Z/os Performance issue: REWRITE a sequential data set

[Rick Arellanes]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:32:15 -0500, Ed Gould <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

>>
>> Finally, you should always report your problems (including performance
>> problems) to IBM service so that it will come to us directly. Our PL/I
>> service people can help you identify this type of performance
>> problem and
>> its solution quickly.
>
>Ahhh yes apparently the rest of IBM (MVS) doesn't feel the way you do:(
>
>Ed
>

I can't speak for other products, but we in COBOL and PL/I development are 
concerned with the performance of our products. In fact, the reason that 
we made the changes to PL/I's QSAM, VSAM, and REGIONAL(1) I/O processing 
was due to customer feedback regarding PL/I's I/O performance. So, if you 
do encounter a performance problem with COBOL or PL/I running under 
Language Environment, please report it to IBM service and we (IBM service 
and the COBOL and PL/I developers) will work with you to understand the 
problem and see how/if we can resolve it.

Rick Arellanes (IBM COBOL and PL/I Development and Performance)

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Password expiration message?

[McKown, John]

I can't remember if this happens or not. On TSO, when you logon and your
password is about to expire, you get a message like:

ICH70002I YOUR PASSWORD WILL EXPIRE IN   1 DAYS.

Does the ftp server send out this message? Sorry, but I just don't
remember. And I just changed my password, so it will be a while before I
can check again.

We have a number of ftp-only users. Is there any way to get the ftp
server to send this message to the ftp client (as a 230 message,
perhaps). Or can I use the FTPCHKPWD exit to do this. If so, anybody got
code? .

What about people (we are few) who use "telnet", or "rlogin", or "ssh"
to get into a UNIX shell? I don't recall it ever putting out this sort
of message either.

If these products do not do this, would this be a reasonable requirement
to ask for?

Oh, running z/OS 1.6. 

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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z/OS 1.7 Enhanced ACIF

[Kok, Howi]

Hi All,
I'm trying to put together our order for z/OS 1.7 before time runs out.
One thing that confuses me is the Enhanced ACIF pgm no 5655-M32.  Does
anyone know if I don't put this in the order list will I still get ACIF?
The IBM partner that I'm working with could not get an answer from IBM.
This is quite frustrating.  For those of you who are already on 1.7
perhaps can guide me out of this confusion.  Thanks a lot.

Howi Kok

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Re: ROI and Mainframe Migration Analysis Report

[Staller, Allan]

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http://go.techtarget.com/r/492109/279318
  -or-
http://searchdatacenter.bitpipe.com/detail/RES/1154349695_883.html?src=R
U_sdc_08_29_06_1&li=27469


Signed onto the spam list (using a fake email) and read the document.

Customer was on OS/390 2.10 /G5 processor. Lease was Up.
Choice: Buy a z-series and upgrade or Buy a server farm and migrate.

The main cost factor was software license costs.

Faced with this chjoice I probably would also have migrated.

I have to admit, this was done on the basis of the businees case,
Not "just because"

Al

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Wade Curry]

Daniel A. McLaughlin([EMAIL PROTECTED])@Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 08:24:54AM -0400:
> So which part of Windows is the OS?
> 
> File handling
> I/O
> GUI
> 
> 
> Obviously it's a sum of its parts, as is Z/OS, Z/VM, Linux, Unix...and so 
> on. If a component is removed and renders it useless. it would seem to be, 
> IMHO, that it is germane to the OS. Can you work without JES, or a like 
> function? Not very well.
> 
> 

I meant to address one more thing in my previous post.  When you
ask "which parts would disable the system when removed", it isn't
as practical as it may seem.  The parts that your business relies
on might not be part of the OS.  If your mission-critical wintel
application  requires the GUI, does that make the GUI
part of the OS?  If you were to remove the programs that comprise
the GUI would the computer become unuseable?  Windows (in it's
current incarnation) probably would fail to be useable without the
GUI, but that still wouldn't indicate that it is part of the OS in
my opinion.

This removal => uselessness criteria would be useful if the issues
were not conflated by the users' definition of "useless" and the
mixing of OS and non-OS functionality in the system software.  (Each
case would need to be evaluated separately.  I'm not making any
judgement with that statement.)

Wade Curry
Sr. Implementation Mgr., AT&T
San Diego, CA

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Re: VSAM CLOSE failure problem

[Mark]

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:04:34 -0500 Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

:>Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:14:19 -0500 Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

:>> :>Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:>> :>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 08:55:35 -0500 Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

:>> :>> :>Robert A. Rosenberg wrote:
:>> :>> :>> At 16:20 -0500 on 08/25/2006, Mark wrote about Re: VSAM CLOSE failure 
:>> :>> :>> problem:


:>> :>> :>>> Charles,
:>> :>> :>>> When I issue the close request, I do indeed still have the ACB in 
:>> :>> :>>> core.  The SHOWCB ERROR as noted in the docs return the same info as 
:>> :>> :>>> the acberflg.


:>> :>> :>>> So as far as I can tell, VSAM is returning an RC of 4, but  zero 
:>> :>> :>>> error value.  A combination which is not documented.
:>> :>> :>>> So either I'm missing some documentation, or DFSMS is returning a bad 
:>> :>> :>>> error value.


:>> :>> :>>> Any more ideas?

:>> :>> :>> Are you closing them one at a time or all 4 in the same close. If the 
:>> :>> :>> latter, try closing them one at at time and see if it helps (or 
:>> :>> :>> returns better tracking results).


:>> :>> :>I am indeed closing them one at a time.   The first ones work, the last 
:>> :>> :>one doesn't.  The last close doesn't know its the last one until after 
:>> :>> :>the close takes place and I can not find a next control block in the chain.


:>> :>> :>I'm going to check that the DEB points to my ACB.  It should but I have 
:>> :>> :>had cases in the past where it didn't because I'd goofed something up on 
:>> :>> :>the OPEN request.


:>> :>> It would be a good idea to get a dump to confirm that the address you 
are
:>> :>> CLOSEing contains an ACB.

:>> :>I've confirmed that the ACB address is good for closing.   And it would 
:>> :>seem that the ACB is in the DEB as well.  However, my SYSUDUMP 
:>> :>information looks a bit strange...


:>> SYSUDUMP of the x03 or a forced abend when the CLOSE failed?
   
:>Forced abend when the CLOSE failed.


Show the CLOSE plist and the ACB.
  


Binyamin

   I have altered the order of the close requests, and the error 
follows the DD/ACB.


ACB - at 11AA3C10
A010004C 11AB7080 00FD3868 8A01
 0400 8008 
  0FCC0011 00876B00
D200   
   

RPL - at 11A3C60
0010004C      
  11AA3C10 
  2080    
   

 4000  

parmlist for close req
8000 11AA3C10

-Mark

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Wade Curry]

Daniel A. McLaughlin([EMAIL PROTECTED])@Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 08:24:54AM -0400:
> So which part of Windows is the OS?
> 
> File handling
> I/O
> GUI
> 
> 
> Obviously it's a sum of its parts, as is Z/OS, Z/VM, Linux, Unix...and so 
> on. If a component is removed and renders it useless. it would seem to be, 
> IMHO, that it is germane to the OS. Can you work without JES, or a like 
> function? Not very well.
> 

This comment pretty much encapsulated my thoughts.  The Windows GUI
isn't part of the OS *functionality*, but has become part of the OS
*code base*.  I could certainly digress into the technical reasons
this is undesireable, and what about it was prompted by lousy
ethics, but I'll resist.

With respect to MVS, when I see these blurry lines I have to wonder
which parts actually provide the core OS functionality.  I tend to
think of that functionality along similar lines as those Lindy and
others mentioned ... The software that 
1) enables the devices to be used at all
2) provides the API for accessing those resources 
3) schedules the access to the hardware
That doesn't eliminate all the fuzziness, but I don't like to stray
to far from that when defining the term "OS".

Where IBM might like for their customers to think of the OS as the
entire package solution,  it seems reasonable to me to discard that
notion long enough to ask which parts actually provide that core
functionality.

After four years in operations, I've pushed myself pretty hard to
understand the system beyond batch and online systems (and beyond
what our other operators learn, for that matter), but I still don't
know many of the components, yet.  So, I wonder along with Lindy
which parts are the OS, and which are not.

Wade Curry
Sr. Implementation Mgr., AT&T
San Diego, CA

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/29/2006
   at 08:50 AM, Alan Altmark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Sure they are.  They are controlling your access to the disk or tape.

Not really; they are using the same services that I could use. SAM
doesn't even use STARTIO, much less directly access the channel
subsytem.

>Packaging vs. Academics.  If they are just "helper" routines (a la 
>gethostbyname() that [could] run in my address space without
>privilege)  then Computer Science would not consider them part of
>the operating system  proper.

Vendors were using the term operating system before the CS folks
jumped on the bandwagon.

>Then perhaps my terminology is faulty.  I was taught that the part
>of MVS  that handles memory management, scheduling, dispatching,
>security, program  management, address space management, system
>operation, I/O and so on was  the BCP; that upon which all else is
>built, and whose services are accessed by SVC and [these days] PC.

No; the BCP is that part of the SCP that is not JES2 or JES3. It
includes a huge body of code that is not accessed by PC or SVC, other
than the ATTACH used for any jobstep program.

>Is there a better term for this?

I'm not sure that there is any utility for a term that refers only to
PC and SVC routines. Especially when a lot of those don't do much more
than validate requests and queue them for other code to process.

Put it this way; is a virtual; machine running SFS part of the
operating system?

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/29/2006
   at 08:55 AM, "Kuredjian, Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
said:

>If z/OS doesn't fit a traditional CS definition of a kernel, then
>what is it?

If an airplane doesn't fit a traditional navigator's definition of a
boat, then what is it? z/OS is the most recent version of MVS. There's
no reason to expect or want it to fir an artificial academic model.

>Does the BCP act as a micro or nano kernel with all other services
>sharing its address space?

No. MVS doesn't have a micro kernel, and the BCP runs in multiple
address spaces.

>Does the concept of "rings" or "kernel address space" even exist on
>these machines?

Those are two separate concepts, neither of which is applicable to
MVS. MVS was designed in a more amorphous and distributed fashion.

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/29/2006
   at 03:33 PM, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>I can/have used Windows (& OS/2) without a mouse.

I use OS/2 without a mouse. It's perfectly comfortable.
 
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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/29/2006
   at 08:21 AM, J R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>I'm not familiar with the MVC and OI commands, but if you're
>referring to the MVC and OI instructions, these are handled directly
>by the CPU. [1]

Or simulated by the Licensed Internal Code.
 
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Re: IBM's "rights" (was Head's Up - zIIP issue OA17458/UA28419)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/29/2006
   at 12:29 AM, "Robert A. Rosenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>In that case add it as port of the toleration service PTF Chain not 
>as a stand-alone PTF (ie: It only gets done as part of the toleration
> service install).

That would complicate the service process and would still offer no
real protection. Nor is toleration service likely to be the only case
for which adding a DS or EQU is necessary.
 
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Product ports under Unix Systems Services (was: What part of z/OS is the OS?)

[Jon Brock]

As long as the subject has been raised, does anyone know whether there are any 
plans to port Ruby to run on z/OS?  

Perl is in the "Ported Tools" product, right?

Jon




I don't think it is perverse at all.  One should be able to do almost 
everything from the shell.  Why should I work in ISPF if I am more comfortable 
with sh or bash?  (We definitely need more ported editors, too.)

There is some sdsf thingy on the tools and toys page, if you didn't already try 
it:

http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/unix/bpxa1ty2.html


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Re: SLIP trap for "wild branch"?

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Walt Farrell
> 
> On 8/28/2006 2:38 PM, Chase, John wrote:
> > From what is visible via CEDF, there aren't any errors from which to

> > recover -- until the EXEC CICS ENDBR command that doesn't exist in
the 
> > program under examination, and it appears arrival there was just 
> > "blind luck".  Unfortunately I have no way of knowing how many 
> > instructions are executed between the previous EXEC command and the 
> > "bogus" ENDBR (I've "disassembled" only about 80 bytes worth of the 
> > code following the last successful EXEC command so far, and found 
> > nothing amiss), but the CEDF interval is not noticeably slower than 
> > the intervals between other EXEC commands.
> 
> That really does NOT sound like a wild branch.  First, just 
> as COBOL programs would not usually look at PSA, they also 
> usually do not take wild branches.  Second, a wild branch 
> will give you an abend, not an application that continues to 
> run until it makes some request CICS does not understand.

Well, given that "wild" implies unpredictability, you are correct:  This
"incomprehensible" (for want of a better term) branch is eminently
predictable as to its destination; its origin and cause remain
mysteries.

> It sounds simply like an application error that occurs for 
> some reason in only one of your CICS regions.  You will 
> probably need a detailed trace of the application and support 
> from the application vendor.

I've learned within the past 15 minutes that we have source code for
this application, so I suggested to the programmers that they recompile
the programs (to produce "source listings" usable by Xpediter/CICS) and
find out exactly WTH is going on.

Oh, yeah, the previously uncorrupted CICS region is now "corrupted" the
same way

So now I have a small box full of SLIP traps I can sell "cheap".  IFs
and SBTs, most only used once,  :-\

-jc-

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Re: Serializing changes to parmlib/proclib

[Hal Merritt]

If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it
over?

I like the 'parmlib nazi' approach. Simple, effective, approved by
auditors. 

Make all changes via request rather than direct update. A skilled human
makes a better change control system anyway. 

My $0.02   

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Martin, Mike
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 12:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Serializing changes to parmlib/proclib

All,

We are beginning to customize our z./OS 1.7 (to replace 1.4).   We have
several folks who will be updating parmib and proclib.  There is a
possibility that we might step on each other's changes 
Mike Martin

 
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Re: AMBLIST and program objects - finding offsets.

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/29/2006
   at 09:09 AM, Peter Relson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Unfortunately, there is no information maintained within the loaded
>module or program object that understands "CSECTs".

Yes, it would be necessary to go back to the original library for
those data.

>Therefore this is literally not possible to do

It's possible; you'd need to either retain[1] information on the
original library or to require the dsname as part of the SLIP syntax.
IAC, I would word the requirement to make it clear that the proposed
solutions were only suggestions.

>One somewhat "difficult to solve" thing would be syntax to refer to
>the different sections for a split-RMODE program object.

Doesn't a read only csect also present a complication?

[1] Aren't there cases where you already do that?
 
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Re: >27x132?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/29/2006
   at 04:48 AM, Chris Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>You took the quote for your second point out of context.

No. You forgot that there was an older generation of 3270's.

>"typically" was added because the "Query Reply"

There didn't use to be a Query Reply; that came later.

>I believe you are talking about dimensions you set using the X'7F'
>code in the penultimate byte of the PSERVIC operand.

No, I was talking about the dimensions on the 3275 and 3277, which
didn't have EWA or Read Partition Query.

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Re: ROI and Mainframe Migration Analysis Report

[Kopischke, David G.]

The link to this paper requires you to sign up for a spam list,
so you might consider that before following the link.

Sorry.



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Re: >27x132?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/29/2006
   at 06:55 AM, Chris Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Your reference mentions a 3277-3 shortly after the line you quoted.

Typo. Are you talking about text in the 3277 documentation, and, if
so, what page?
 
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Re: >27x132?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/29/2006
   at 04:42 AM, Chris Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>If you check my earlier post where I try to cover all of this, you
>will see that VTAM is not involved.

See below.

>There is, of course, the possibility you are running a 3270 device
>or emulator which is "non-SNA channel-attached". In this case VTAM
>is involved because it provides another layer of emulation, mapping
>CCW-driven data exchanges to the SNA session that the application
>sees.

VTAM also must do CCW chain management for SNA channel attached
controllers.

>I tried to work out what might happen if you played fast and loose 
>with presentation space dimension specifications while VTAM was 
>trying to maintain the SNA session.

Chaos. The safe way is to let the application control size changes via
explicit partitions. Possibly there should be an asynchronous request
for the application to change the screen size, but the secondary LU
should maintain the old screen size if the request is declined

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Re: >27x132?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/29/2006
   at 04:39 AM, Chris Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>As confirmed by Alan Altmark, PCOMM follows "microcode" 3270
>implementations such as are described in "3174 Establishment
>Controller, Functional Description", GA23-0218-11:

>http://publibfp.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr/BOOKS/cn7a7003

>Thus 24 rows and 80 columns are always returned in the default fields
>of the "Query Reply" and so they are not configured anywhere.

That is *not* the behavior of a real 3270 attached to a real 3174. In
particular, it is not the behavior of a 3180 or 3192 attached to a
3174. The contents of the Query Reply is affected by the contents of
the BIND. BTDTGTTS.
 
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Re: >27x132?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/29/2006
   at 06:53 AM, Chris Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>I assume you mean the 3277 Model 1.

Yes. In fact, I had forgotten about the 3278-1 :-(

>But I expect you have some suitable hardcopy to hand.

Indeed; had it been machine readable I would have done a
cut-and-paste. I wish that IBM would[1] contribute the source text for
their old documentation to the Hercules project or the computer
museum.

[1] Assuming that the original GML, BookMaster or whatever is still
on readable media.
 
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Re: >27x132?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/29/2006
   at 06:46 AM, Chris Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>What colour were the characters? If they were green I expect it was a
>3277 Model 1. If they were orange it was a 2260.

My recollection is that the 2260 and every monochrome 3270 before the
3290 was green.
 
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Re: >27x132?

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/29/2006
   at 05:37 AM, Chris Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Thus the default presentation space dimensions need *not* necessarily
>always be 24 rows and 80 columns. It may only be a convention that
>they are so limited, a convention established by the choice taken by
>devices which follow the initial design choice of the models 3, 4 and
>5 3278 displays.

The 3180 and 3192 displays could be configured to look like standard
3278 models 2-5 or like extended models 2-5, indicated by model
numbers 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+ or 6-9, depending on which of the two is under
discussion. The extended model numbers allowed a BIND in which the
primary size was *not* 24x80. This functionality was also available on
later 3270 devices. The extended modes were fully supported by CMS, by
TPX, by TSO and by ISPF, at least when the primary size was 43x80 and
the secondary 27x132, which was what I used.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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ROI and Mainframe Migration Analysis Report

[Kopischke, David G.]

Here's an interesting one that came in my morning E-Mails:



ROI and Mainframe Migration Analysis Report Sponsored by: HP

A major provider of support services for business and industry replaced
their mainframe with a cluster of integrity UNIX servers.
This report examines the migration project in detail, including the
processes that were used, the cost reductions that were realized, the
choice of partners, risk mitigation and the business benefits that
resulted from the project.

Download this report now:
http://go.techtarget.com/r/492109/279318

  -or-

http://searchdatacenter.bitpipe.com/detail/RES/1154349695_883.html?src=R
U_sdc_08_29_06_1&li=27469

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Re: CA7 Slowdown after 1.7 implementation

[Craddock, Chris]

> Any updates from those who were impacted by this?  IBM problem?  CA
> problem?  Tuning opportunity?   We have z/OS R7 on all but our largest
> on-line systems and two CA7 test instances running fine but have not
had
> the chance to move the production CA7 to an R7 system.  I hope to get
> that done this week so we can expose it to z/OS R7 for a few weeks
prior
> to installation on those last LPARs where it normally resides.

There does appear to be some sort of problem and we're still working on
it with IBM. There is nothing to report yet and no smoking guns on
either side that I am aware of. I will pass along what we find out.

CC

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Ted MacNEIL]

>>Can you use z/OS without TSO?
>>

>Yes.

Comfortably?
Productively?
Do you really want to?

I can/have used Windows (& OS/2) without a mouse.
That doesn't mean I want to!

When in doubt.
PANIC!!

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

J R wrote:

We tend to refer to the parts we deal intimately with by name,
e.g. TSO, ISPF, HLASM, VTAM, TCP/IP, JES2, SDSF, etc., etc.
Unless we are looking at some component in particular, we tend
to refer to everything else non-specifically as "the system".


previous posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006p.html#10 What part of z/OS is the OS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006p.html#11 What part of z/OS is the OS?

in the past, kernels tended to refer to privilege/supervisor execution 
and protected storage. lots of kernels have implemented protected 
storage with virtual address spaces ... i.e. cp67 on 360/67. mvt used 
360 storage protection.


as technology progressed there was a direction (like for fault 
isolation) to provide greater granularity for both privileges and 
storage protection/isolation.


so from a structuring standpoint, system services got a lot less 
distinct with much greater levels of privileges and storage isolation.


a couple months ago there was talk by one of the vendors about moving 
SSL processing into the kernel. the issue was that they were going to be 
supporting SSL crypto hardware accelerator devices. In order to provide 
support for potentially multiple different applications sharing a common 
device ... SSL processing (used of a shared external device) became a 
resource and protection management issue (typical requirement for system 
services).


Discussion of some of the repercussions in the SSL security model that 
were the result of the SSL crypto processing overhead ... as well as 
some discussion as to how many of the requirements for SSL might be 
addressed in other ways:

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006p.html#7 SSL, Apache 2 and RSA key sizes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006p.html#8 SSL, Apache 2 and RSA key sizes

in the referenced discussion (about moving SSL support into the kernel) 
there was also mention of repeated efforts trying to get tcp/ip protocol 
stack out of the kernel in the secure, capability coyotos secure 
operating system

http://www.coyotos.org/

coyotos heritage is eros
http://www.eros-os.org/
http://www.capros.org/

the eros/capros heritage is keyKOS
http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~KeyKOS/
http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~KeyKOS/#keylogic

keykos is the renamed gnosis by the key logic spin-off of tymshare after 
MD bought tymshare. gnosis was a secure 370-based operating system 
developed by tymshare. tymshare happened to have been one of the early 
cp67/vm370 commercial time-sharing offerings in the late 60s and 70s

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#timeshare

disclaimer, i was brought in to do gnosis audit and evaluation as part 
of the gnosis spin-off for key logic. misc. past posts mentioning 
gnosis/keykos
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#69 TSS ancient history, was X86 
ultimate CISC? designs)

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#22 No more innovation?  Get serious
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#73 7090 vs. 7094 etc.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#33 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital 
Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#35 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital 
Equipment in the 70s?

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#10 TSS/360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#59 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#0 Blade architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#4 markup vs wysiwyg (was: Re: 
learning how to use a computer)

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#43 IBM doing anything for 50th Anniv?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#63 Hercules and System/390 - do 
we need it?

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#75 30th b'day
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#18 Multiple layers of virtual 
address translation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#41 Segments, capabilities, buffer 
overrun attacks

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003i.html#15 two pi, four phase, 370 clone
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#50 Slashdot: O'Reilly On The 
Importance Of The Mainframe Heritage

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003l.html#19 Secure OS Thoughts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003l.html#22 Secure OS Thoughts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003l.html#26 Secure OS Thoughts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#24 Intel iAPX 432
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003m.html#54 Thoughts on Utility Computing?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#4 OS Partitioning and security
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#27 NSF interest in Multics security
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004m.html#29 Shipwrecks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004m.html#49 EAL5
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004n.html#41 Multi-processor timing issue
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004o.html#33 Integer types for 128-bit 
addressing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004p.html#23 Systems software versus 
applications software definitions

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005.html#7 How do you say "gnus"?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005b.html#6 [Lit.] Buffer overruns
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005b.html#7 [Lit.] Buffer over

Re: IBM's "rights" (was Head's Up - zIIP issue OA17458/UA28419)

[Thompson, Steve (SCI TW)]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter Relson
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM's "rights" (was Head's Up - zIIP issue OA17458/UA28419)

>But back to STL days for me: One of the problems that we had was that
>IBM internally did NOT follow their own rules for SPLEVEL.

I cannot speak for development outside of Poughkeepsie. We have always
known our responsibility for compatibility. And yes we have screwed up
on occasion. I believe such occasions have been rare.

I wonder what you think the "rules for SPLEVEL" were.


Well, unfortunately I no longer have access to the MVS/SP2 & SP3
manuals, but as I recall, specifying SET=2 required the macros to
generate code compatible with XA or for the MVS/XA environment. This
was, as I recall, proported to allow you to have a single SYS1.MACLIB,
which could be at the SP3 level (MVS/ESA) and produce code that was
specifically for the XA level. 

While the executive macros, for the most part, did that, the declarative
macros did not (e.g., STCB would gen, regardless for MVS/ESA).

This resulted eventually in me writing ASYSLIB for HLASM (via an exit)
so that we could change the SYSLIB concat to generate the code we needed
for certain macros (essentially repointing to a different OS release).

Years later when at an IBM location for some discussions of macro
behaviors this type of problem was pointed out by me and a few others. I
recall that it was agreed that this was incorrect behavior for the
declarative macros.

Later,
Steve Thompson

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Re: IBM's "rights" (was Head's Up - zIIP issue OA17458/UA28419)

[Thompson, Steve (SCI TW)]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter Relson
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM's "rights" (was Head's Up - zIIP issue OA17458/UA28419)

>Perhaps you might want to re-think your attitude.

You ought to re-read my appends. You are way off base.
I can guarantee you that no one thinks more about compatibility than I
do.


Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


I have. I erred. I honestly don't know how I read that statement the way
I did. In fact, I was quite astonished when I read it and then when I
reviewed it again -- 

I can only apologize to you and the group.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Re: CA7 Slowdown after 1.7 implementation

[Knutson, Sam]

Any updates from those who were impacted by this?  IBM problem?  CA
problem?  Tuning opportunity?   We have z/OS R7 on all but our largest
on-line systems and two CA7 test instances running fine but have not had
the chance to move the production CA7 to an R7 system.  I hope to get
that done this week so we can expose it to z/OS R7 for a few weeks prior
to installation on those last LPARs where it normally resides.

Best Regards, 

Sam Knutson, GEICO 
Performance and Availability Management 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
(office)  301.986.3574 

"Think big, act bold, start simple, grow fast..."

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Dups

[Carol Srna]

Thanks everyone who answered my question.  This question was posed to me 
in passsing. I also thought that a dupkey condition would be raised, and 
to use the SORT/MERGE solution.
Again, thanks to all that responded.

P.S. Another JEOPARDY question. :-)  What is the maximum number of 
Alternate Indexes(Indices)a KSDS can have? I know that a KSDS can have 
more than one Alternate.
Thanks In Advance

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Re: IBM's "rights" (was Head's Up - zIIP issue OA17458/UA28419)

[Craddock, Chris]

 
Someone said of Peter;

> >Perhaps you might want to re-think your attitude.

I have known Peter for a long time and have even occasionally had reason
to argue with him, but I don't think there is any reason at all to
attack his dedication - particularly with respect to maintaining
compatibility.

He's one of the best and brightest we have in the z/OS community and
whether you agree with him or not, he deserves a large measure of
respect. 

CC

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Re: really stupid question - z/OS 1.6 and CSTOR > 2Gb

[Leverette, Melvin K]

I am not the expert in this area, but can relate what I know.  We were a
very early adopter of Oracle on mainframe and UNIX.

We run both Oracle and DB2 on the mainframe and have many UNIX servers
running Oracle.  For years, the only way to connect to the DB2 data
bases on the mainframe from Oracle on UNIX was to use the Oracle Gateway
that we installed on the mainframe with Oracle.  Without Oracle, the
only recourse was extract, transform, and load as a means of exchanging
data with distributed.

Then came DB2 UDB.  IBM's solution was that if you wanted to connect
Oracle/UNIX to DB2 on the mainframe, you had to set up a UNIX or Windows
DB2 UDB and manage connections from there.  Originally I believe the UDB
to MF had to be LU6.2, (yuck!).  The UDB had to be used for JDBC and
ODBC connections from distributed.  

We are DB2 7.1, and have used third party products on the MF to provide
JDBC and ODBC connectivity directly to DB2 for years.  If you want to
connect to Oracle on the mainframe, UNIX, or Windows it is pretty much
all the same.  

I know there are several changes that have to be made to SQL statements
when they are ported from Oracle to DB2, so the SQL is not exactly the
same.

Oracle is pretty much Oracle where ever it is, but expect a systems
programmer to have to work with the Oracle folks to install it on the
mainframe.  The installation is not trivial, and in addition if you
require connectivity to CICS, SAS, Easytrieve, etc to access Oracle
(i.e. which gives you access to your data regardless of whether the
database is on the mainframe or other platforms) there is extra work and
support needed.  Some of the above product connections may require
additional Oracle type licenses that you may not own as a site license.

Regards,
Ken

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Re: VSAM CLOSE failure problem

[Mark]

Terry Sambrooks wrote:

Hi Mark,

In respect of your VSAM close giving RC=4. I am not a VSAM expert so the 
following may be off beam, but I remembered this quote from the Data Set Macros 
Manual.

"Requirement: If you are sharing subtasks or if you have issued an asynchronous 
request for access to a data set, you must issue a CHECK or an ENDREQ on all

RPLs before you issue a CLOSE or CLOSE TYPE=T. Otherwise, concurrent data set I/O 
activity causes unpredictable results during a close."

I wondered if the above fits with your question?

"Is there any IO call that would/could/should leave the ACBBUSY flag set when it returns?   It would seem that this is the most obvious difference between all the ACBs." 


Kind Regards - Terry

Terry,

I'm doing SYNC IO requests.  So CHECK should not be needed.
I've tried the ENDREQ approach with no change in the results.

Thanks for the ideas though.

-Mark

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Re: IBM's "rights" (was Head's Up - zIIP issue OA17458/UA28419)

[Peter Relson]

>But back to STL days for me: One of the problems that we had was that
>IBM internally did NOT follow their own rules for SPLEVEL.

I cannot speak for development outside of Poughkeepsie. We have always
known our responsibility for compatibility. And yes we have screwed up
on occasion. I believe such occasions have been rare.

I wonder what you think the "rules for SPLEVEL" were.

>Then, you come along and state that IBM can change anything they want at
>any time relative to field names and their contents (that was what you
>said, wasn't it?).

No, that is not at all what I said. Nor would I ever make any such
statement about the contents of fields or about *removing* field names.
My ONLY statement was about adding a field that is 100% compatible except
for the fact that someone was using the presence or absence of that
field to think that meant something about the release of the macro library
which it did not.

>Next, looking at the disclosure meetings with the ISVs, blind siding
>them only causes IBM problems because IBM customers WON'T upgrade the OS
>when the products they depend on can't run at that new level.

What "blindsiding" are you referring to? We disclose everything that
we think is or even might be relevant and we have tried for decades
to get the vendors to tell us what their dependencies are on undocumented
things so that we can do a better job. We appear to be making some
headway there, but the result will never be any better than the information
we get.


>Perhaps you might want to re-think your attitude.

You ought to re-read my appends. You are way off base.
I can guarantee you that no one thinks more about compatibility than I do.


Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Mark Zelden]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:40:15 +, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Can you use z/OS without TSO?
>

Yes. 

--
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Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group
mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
z/OS and OS390 expert at http://searchDataCenter.com/ateExperts/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[(IBM Mainframe Discussion List)]

 
 
On Monday, 08/28/2006 at 07:49 ZW3, "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)"  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >That would be,  again classically, just BCP: the thing that holds the
>  >SVCs.
>> Not all SVC's are in the BCP, and most of the BCP is not  composed of
>> SVC's, at least not for MVS.
 
In a message dated 8/29/2006 7:50:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
>I was taught that the part of MVS 
>that handles memory  management, scheduling
Not sure what you mean by scheduling.  You schedule an SRB by  using the 
SCHEDULE macro, which invokes the BCP via a BALR instruction.   You schedule 
batch 
jobs by using JESx.  You schedule an I/O request at the  lowest level by 
using the STARTIO macro, which invokes the I/O part of the BCP  via a BASSM 
instruction.
 
>, dispatching
Dispatching is handled by the Dispatcher, which, as far as I know, has  never 
had an interface involving an SVC.
 
>, security
Security is, like scheduling, a very broad topic.  It is enforced at  a data 
set level, device level, job level, address space level, individual 4K  pages 
of virtual storage level, etc.
 
>, program 
>management, address space management, system  operation, I/O
You can initiate I/O requests with certain SVCs, but also with BASSM (see  
above).  And you can also manipulate I/O resources by BALRing  into various I/O 
modules (halt a previously started I/O, modify a SCHIB,  vary devices, e.g.).
 
 and so on was 
>the BCP; that upon which all else is built,  and whose services are 
>accessed by SVC and [these days] PC.   Further, while the service routines 
>for the various SVCs may not be  physically resident in the BCP, I 
>understood the SVC handler itself  was.
The handlers (FLIH and SLIH) for all classes of interrupts are in  the BCP.



 
Bill  Fairchild

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne Driscoll
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:11 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?
> 
> 
> John,
> Om my z/OS 1.7 system, (which is not customized), I have both 
> vi and vim
> in /bin
> The vim is version 6.3, which is the same as I run on my PC.
> Wayne Driscoll
> Product Developer
> JME Software LLC
> NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own.

Wayne.

No vim on my z/OS 1.6 system at all. I cannot determine the version of
vi. There is a copyright from MKS in it, however.

Most likely my main problem lies in the keyboard mapping. I cannot get
them (using PuTTY) to work exactly as I am used to. Mostly likely a
PEBKAC problem.

--
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Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Lindy Mayfield]

John,

I don't think it is perverse at all.  One should be able to do almost 
everything from the shell.  Why should I work in ISPF if I am more comfortable 
with sh or bash?  (We definitely need more ported editors, too.)

There is some sdsf thingy on the tools and toys page, if you didn't already try 
it:

http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/zos/unix/bpxa1ty2.html

--

Lindy

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
McKown, John
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 4:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?


And even though it is "perverse", I'm trying to see how much I can get
done from a UNIX shell in z/OS without using TSO at all. OK, not too
much right now. I'm too stuck on things like SDSF. And the vi editor
which comes with z/OS is not very good, compared to the vim that I'm
used to on Linux/Intel. I've really made myself a PAIN over on MVS-OE
wanting things in z/OS UNIX simply to make like easier in a "UNIX shell"
environment.

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Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[J R]

Not really, but you CAN get by without ISPF (even though it would be 
difficult).


We tend to refer to the parts we deal intimately with by name,
e.g. TSO, ISPF, HLASM, VTAM, TCP/IP, JES2, SDSF, etc., etc.
Unless we are looking at some component in particular, we tend
to refer to everything else non-specifically as "the system".

Is it reasonable to say that "the system" is the OS?  Maybe.

However, most wouldn't consider "the system" enough to work
with.  We all expect everything that was delivered to be available.



From: "Veilleux, Jon L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:43:48 -0400


Not really, but you CAN get by without ISPF (even thought it would be
difficult).


Jon L. Veilleux
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(860) 636-2683


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

>If a component is removed and renders it useless. it would seem to be,
IMHO, that it is germane to the OS.

That can be stretched quite a bit, even though I agree with the
statement.

Can you use z/OS without TSO?

When in doubt.
PANIC!!



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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Wayne Driscoll]

John,
Om my z/OS 1.7 system, (which is not customized), I have both vi and vim
in /bin
The vim is version 6.3, which is the same as I run on my PC.
Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
JME Software LLC
NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own.
  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of McKown, John
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:02 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:58 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?
> 
> 



> > 
> > Can you use z/OS without TSO?
> 
> Why, sure!  E.g. my Linux guests can still reach over to DB2 on z/OS 
> if you take down TSO.  I don't think that makes the OS useless.
> I can access
> my files with NFS.
> 
> It's true, I wouldn't want to configure a z/OS system without TSO, but

> it's just one of the interfaces.  I have slowly fading nightmares of 
> CARDS and KEY PUNCHES before I was ever introduced to a 3270 and 
> TSO  :-)
> 
> Alan Altmark

And even though it is "perverse", I'm trying to see how much I can get
done from a UNIX shell in z/OS without using TSO at all. OK, not too
much right now. I'm too stuck on things like SDSF. And the vi editor
which comes with z/OS is not very good, compared to the vim that I'm
used to on Linux/Intel. I've really made myself a PAIN over on MVS-OE
wanting things in z/OS UNIX simply to make like easier in a "UNIX shell"
environment.

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Information Technology

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Daniel A. McLaughlin]

It would appear that usefulness is in the eye of the beholder. If CICS is 
your main reason for running the OS and it's removed, the OS is not 
incapacitated. To me dropping CICS is like removing the spare tire from 
the trunk of your car. Your car still runs, but one of its pieces is 
missing, in a broad sense.






Daniel McLaughlin
ZOS Systems Programmer
Crawford & Company
PH: 770 621 3256
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AMBLIST and program objects - finding offsets.

[Peter Relson]

>IMHO it's time to submit a requirement for SLIP proceesing of program
>objects. The stated requirement should be to provide a documented and
>supported way of providing an offset within a csect

Unfortunately, there is no information maintained within the loaded module
or program object that understands "CSECTs".
Therefore this is literally not possible to do unless you are willing to
have every LOAD done for your system (including LPA) load, and maintain,
all of the information that is on DASD but not necessary for the execution
of the program. Even if customers were willing to sacrifice the cycles and
the space (which seems very unlikely to me), the cost would be very large.


>Add an option to AMBLIST to produce a module-relative offset
>list of sections and entry points.

I certainly agree with this point.


One somewhat "difficult to solve" thing would be syntax to refer to the
different sections for a split-RMODE program object. That could be done,
though. I could conceive of
PVTMOD=(name,start-offset,end-offset,24|31|64)
where the 4th value's number refers to the RMODE of the section to be used.
"64" is just in case we ever do get around to supporting RMODE 64.


So in AMBLIST terms, you'd want information "per RMODE" and also "overall"
(if the program object could be loaded via LOAD with DE= and ADDR=, it
should get put into a single segment with the "lowest" RMODE).


Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM]

"Ted MacNEIL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cell00.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>...
> >If a component is removed and renders it useless. it would seem to
be, IMHO, that it is germane to the OS.
> 
> That can be stretched quite a bit, even though I agree with the
statement.
> 
> Can you use z/OS without TSO?
> 

Yes, you can, as well as you can without JES.

On the other hand, if a system mainly runs CICS, removing CICS would
render it useless. Is CICS therefor part of the OS?

I think it is useless to try to find a watertight definition of an OS.

How should we interprete the question: what part of z/OS is OS, so: what
part is 'z'? z/OS *is* the OS.

Kees.



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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Kuredjian, Michael]

If z/OS doesn't fit a traditional CS definition of a kernel, then what is it? 
Does the BCP act as a micro or nano kernel with all other services sharing its 
address space? Does the concept of "rings" or "kernel address space" even exist 
on these machines?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 2:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?


In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/28/2006
   at 06:45 PM, Lindy Mayfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Is there a general consensus about what pieces or aspects of the
>software shipped with z/OS would be defined as the "operating
>system"?

Well, historically IBM has used the term OS to include everything
bundled with the system.

>Especially since z/OS comes also with a UNIX kernel.

Which isn't a kernel in the sense that the CS mean. In fact, it would
be hard to find a part of MVS that qualified as a "kernel"; it really
doesn't fit that model.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:58 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?
> 
> 



> > 
> > Can you use z/OS without TSO?
> 
> Why, sure!  E.g. my Linux guests can still reach over to DB2 
> on z/OS if 
> you take down TSO.  I don't think that makes the OS useless.  
> I can access 
> my files with NFS.
> 
> It's true, I wouldn't want to configure a z/OS system without 
> TSO, but 
> it's just one of the interfaces.  I have slowly fading 
> nightmares of CARDS 
> and KEY PUNCHES before I was ever introduced to a 3270 and 
> TSO  :-)
> 
> Alan Altmark

And even though it is "perverse", I'm trying to see how much I can get
done from a UNIX shell in z/OS without using TSO at all. OK, not too
much right now. I'm too stuck on things like SDSF. And the vi editor
which comes with z/OS is not very good, compared to the vim that I'm
used to on Linux/Intel. I've really made myself a PAIN over on MVS-OE
wanting things in z/OS UNIX simply to make like easier in a "UNIX shell"
environment.

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Lindy Mayfield]

What would stop working if you removed TSO?  

Oh, I think I see your point, though.  You're thinking of TSO as an I/O device 
rather than a development tool, yes?  It's necessary because there are no more 
card readers?

But the subsystem part of TSO is mostly VTAM isn't it? And IKJEFT01 is like a 
utility program, for example when running a DB2 batch job.

The reason I asked this in the first place was because I found it confusing.  I 
guess in this instance it was justified. (-:

Alan is right, not enough ginger beer in the fridge.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
Veilleux, Jon L
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 3:44 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?


Not really, but you CAN get by without ISPF (even thought it would be
difficult).


Jon L. Veilleux
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(860) 636-2683 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

>If a component is removed and renders it useless. it would seem to be,
IMHO, that it is germane to the OS.

That can be stretched quite a bit, even though I agree with the
statement.

Can you use z/OS without TSO?

When in doubt.
PANIC!!

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[(IBM Mainframe Discussion List)]

 
 
In a message dated 8/29/2006 7:50:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>I've actually managed to run NET, TSO, and a TSO logon in  the
>MSTR subsystem. All without JES being up. Kids! Don't try this at  home!
>No, I don't remember all of the steps necessary. It was a royal  PITA.
And how did you manage to do all the PITA work necessary?  Did you  start 
JES2, then TSO (needs JESx alive to get started), then update files,  then run 
batch jobs (needs JESx to start) or started tasks (needs JESx to  start) to 
test 
out your changes?  Or did your MSTR subsystem arrive  already pre-customized 
like that from IBM?
 
My point is you can't do any meaningful work without some means of  starting 
a process (JESx) that either interacts with you (TSO) or at least  reads card 
images from some device (JESx), so that you can do the necessary  PITA work.  
After having used JESx to help you do all the work to  customize the system, 
then you can run TSO from MSTR, but not as the system  comes from IBM.
 
Bill  Fairchild




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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Alan Altmark]

On Tuesday, 08/29/2006 at 12:40 GMT, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >If a component is removed and renders it useless. it would seem to be, 
IMHO, 
> that it is germane to the OS.
> 
> That can be stretched quite a bit, even though I agree with the 
statement.
> 
> Can you use z/OS without TSO?

Why, sure!  E.g. my Linux guests can still reach over to DB2 on z/OS if 
you take down TSO.  I don't think that makes the OS useless.  I can access 
my files with NFS.

It's true, I wouldn't want to configure a z/OS system without TSO, but 
it's just one of the interfaces.  I have slowly fading nightmares of CARDS 
and KEY PUNCHES before I was ever introduced to a 3270 and TSO  :-)

Alan Altmark
z/VM Development
IBM Endicott

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Re: SLIP trap for "wild branch"?

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Walt Farrell
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 6:52 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: SLIP trap for "wild branch"?
> 
> 
> On 8/28/2006 2:38 PM, Chase, John wrote:
> > From what is visible via CEDF, there aren't any errors from which to
> > recover -- until the EXEC CICS ENDBR command that doesn't 
> exist in the
> > program under examination, and it appears arrival there was 
> just "blind
> > luck".  Unfortunately I have no way of knowing how many 
> instructions are
> > executed between the previous EXEC command and the "bogus" 
> ENDBR (I've
> > "disassembled" only about 80 bytes worth of the code 
> following the last
> > successful EXEC command so far, and found nothing amiss), 
> but the CEDF
> > interval is not noticeably slower than the intervals 
> between other EXEC
> > commands.
> 
> That really does NOT sound like a wild branch.  First, just as COBOL 
> programs would not usually look at PSA, they also usually do not take 
> wild branches.  Second, a wild branch will give you an abend, not an 
> application that continues to run until it makes some request 
> CICS does 
> not understand.
> 
> It sounds simply like an application error that occurs for 
> some reason 
> in only one of your CICS regions.  You will probably need a detailed 
> trace of the application and support from the application vendor.
> 
>   Walt

This just occurred to me. Could the problem be an active EXEC CICS
HANDLE condition from somewhere? The books says that the HANDLE
CONDITION is deactivated upon an EXEC CICS LINK, but does not mention
what happens with a COBOL dynamicly CALL'ed subroutine.

So if routine A does a HANDLE CONDITION, then does a dynamic CALL to
subroutine B which does not do a HANDLE CONDITION or use the appropriate
RESP or NOHANDLE on its EXEC CICS commands, then if the condition
occurs, I think you may end up back in routine A.

--
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HealthMarkets
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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Daniel A. McLaughlin]

OK, if MVS or an equivalent can be run without JES or TSO, even though 
it's a RPITA, then would it be reasonable to postulate that the OS is the 
Overall Supervisor and other pieces, like TSO or JES, are there as the 
CBLFIA (Carbon Based Life Form Interactive Agents)?




Daniel McLaughlin
ZOS Systems Programmer
Crawford & Company
PH: 770 621 3256
*









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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Alan Altmark]

On Monday, 08/28/2006 at 07:49 ZW3, "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You don't consider access methods to be part of the operating system?

Sure they are.  They are controlling your access to the disk or tape.

> Common services like DAIR and PARSE?

Packaging vs. Academics.  If they are just "helper" routines (a la 
gethostbyname() that [could] run in my address space without privilege) 
then Computer Science would not consider them part of the operating system 
proper.  They may well be packaged with the operating system, but the 
operate outside of the pale.

> For IBSYS/IBJOB and OS/360 IBM considered the entire code base to be
> an operating system.

Of course we did.  Who was going to argue?  :-)

> >That would be, again classically, just BCP: the thing that holds the
> >SVCs.
> 
> Not all SVC's are in the BCP, and most of the BCP is not composed of
> SVC's, at least not for MVS.

Then perhaps my terminology is faulty.  I was taught that the part of MVS 
that handles memory management, scheduling, dispatching, security, program 
management, address space management, system operation, I/O and so on was 
the BCP; that upon which all else is built, and whose services are 
accessed by SVC and [these days] PC.  Further, while the service routines 
for the various SVCs may not be physically resident in the BCP, I 
understood the SVC handler itself was.

Is there a better term for this?

Alan Altmark
z/VM Development
IBM Endicott

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lindy Mayfield
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 3:16 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?
> 
> 
> Would it be correct to say that any "piece" that when removed 
> would result in a non-functional OS would then belong to the 
> OS?  I was thinking about JES.  Nothing works without JES, right?

Not right. I've actually managed to run NET, TSO, and a TSO logon in the
MSTR subsystem. All without JES being up. Kids! Don't try this at home!
No, I don't remember all of the steps necessary. It was a royal PITA.

--
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Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
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Administrative Services Group
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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Alan Altmark]

On Monday, 08/28/2006 at 03:43 AST, "Thompson, Steve (SCI TW)" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Perhaps it all really is just an academic discussion, but I can't help
> but think there should be a clear definition somewhere.  Maybe I'll try
> to Google a bit harder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system is a reasonable place to 
start if you don't have a classic Operating Systems textbook.

Alan Altmark
z/VM Development
IBM Endicott

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[John Ticic]

-- snip --
So which part of Windows is the OS?

File handling
I/O
GUI

-- snip --

The mOuSe. :->


John

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Veilleux, Jon L]

Not really, but you CAN get by without ISPF (even thought it would be
difficult).


Jon L. Veilleux
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(860) 636-2683 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

>If a component is removed and renders it useless. it would seem to be,
IMHO, that it is germane to the OS.

That can be stretched quite a bit, even though I agree with the
statement.

Can you use z/OS without TSO?

When in doubt.
PANIC!!

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Ted MacNEIL]

>If a component is removed and renders it useless. it would seem to be, IMHO, 
>that it is germane to the OS.

That can be stretched quite a bit, even though I agree with the statement.

Can you use z/OS without TSO?

When in doubt.
PANIC!!

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Daniel A. McLaughlin]

So which part of Windows is the OS?

File handling
I/O
GUI


Obviously it's a sum of its parts, as is Z/OS, Z/VM, Linux, Unix...and so 
on. If a component is removed and renders it useless. it would seem to be, 
IMHO, that it is germane to the OS. Can you work without JES, or a like 
function? Not very well.




Daniel McLaughlin
ZOS Systems Programmer
Crawford & Company
PH: 770 621 3256
*









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Re: Unable To Find Error Message - ADSDM192

[John Kington]

John,
>Thanks for the info.
You're welcome.
>Last favour to ask of you, you mention that you found the information in a
"esupport website".
The URL is //http:supportconnect.ca.com
You will need to register with the site to get the documentation or other
good stuff. Once
there, you can setup to follow any CA product you may have or support.
Regards,
John

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Alan Altmark]

On Monday, 08/28/2006 at 04:49 CST, Leif Rundberget 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> z/OS is not an OS.  It is a bundle of packages put together and sold by
> IBM as a product solution.  The real OS in the bundle is still MVS clear
> back to the 60s or is that 50's.

Must disagree, Leif.  The MVS product contained many subsystems and 
applications.  z/OS contains MVS and yet more applications and subsystems, 
many of which are/were products in their own right.  But even MVS had the 
BCP (basic control program) that provides the core set of services used by 
all the other subsystems and apps.

Someone's gonna have to run to the store and get more fave beverages. 
There's not enough in the cooler and fridge to get us through this 
discussion!  :-)

Alan Altmark
z/VM Development
IBM Endicott

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[J R]

This implies that any command thrown at it be it MVC or OI, is handled by 
the Operating system.


Shirley, you can't be serious!

I'm not familiar with the MVC and OI commands, but if you're
referring to the MVC and OI instructions, these are handled
directly by the CPU. [1]

[1]  other than for recovery from page faults, etc.



From: "Van Dalsen, Herbie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:00:51 +0100

My humble opinion would be the following...
1. OS = Operating system i.e. Any part that operate the system
2. Function =
a) handle all requests from users / other systems... This implies that
any command thrown at it be it MVC or OI, is handled by the Operating
system.
b) notify users / other systems of its current status... This implies
that any part of the system writing SMF records and or send error
messages.

So all error handlers on the lowest level should be included. Any
program etc that handles requests on the lowest level should be
included.

What would not be included is the next layer... IDCAMS / DFSMS that
intercepts the base error codes and tries its best to send a reasonably
understandable error code. The problem comes when the distinction
between layer 1 and 2 becomes fuzzy ?

Regards

Herbie van Dalsen

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
Sent: 28 August 2006 23:49
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/28/2006
   at 02:13 PM, Alan Altmark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>It depends on your definition of of "operating system".  The
>classical  definition is the chunk of software that manages the real
>system  resources, allocating them to application programs.

You don't consider access methods to be part of the operating system?
Common services like DAIR and PARSE?

For IBSYS/IBJOB and OS/360 IBM considered the entire code base to be
an operating system.

>That would be, again classically, just BCP: the thing that holds the
>SVCs.

Not all SVC's are in the BCP, and most of the BCP is not composed of
SVC's, at least not for MVS.

--
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see 


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Re: SLIP trap for "wild branch"?

[Walt Farrell]

On 8/28/2006 2:38 PM, Chase, John wrote:

From what is visible via CEDF, there aren't any errors from which to
recover -- until the EXEC CICS ENDBR command that doesn't exist in the
program under examination, and it appears arrival there was just "blind
luck".  Unfortunately I have no way of knowing how many instructions are
executed between the previous EXEC command and the "bogus" ENDBR (I've
"disassembled" only about 80 bytes worth of the code following the last
successful EXEC command so far, and found nothing amiss), but the CEDF
interval is not noticeably slower than the intervals between other EXEC
commands.


That really does NOT sound like a wild branch.  First, just as COBOL 
programs would not usually look at PSA, they also usually do not take 
wild branches.  Second, a wild branch will give you an abend, not an 
application that continues to run until it makes some request CICS does 
not understand.


It sounds simply like an application error that occurs for some reason 
in only one of your CICS regions.  You will probably need a detailed 
trace of the application and support from the application vendor.


Walt

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Re: JCL - Copy Tape

[R.S.]

Thompson, Steve (SCI TW) wrote:


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of R.S.
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 2:47 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: JCL - Copy Tape

Thompson, Steve (SCI TW) wrote:


How did this tape get created? Was it created on a VSE system? If so


not


all of the label information is filled out and so *YOU* have to supply
the actual physical record size (BLKSIZE) along with the other DCB


info.


UNLESS you are using LBI. In that case, the "LEGACY" BLKSIZE will be 0
but the "new" data areas will be filled out.



AFAIR the LBI does NOT change the meaning of existing fields. It simply 
*adds* new field (previously unused) as high-order bytes for BLKSIZE. So


existing block size field still has a meaningful value.



We have one guy who has been doing LBI and "huge" block/record support
(I forgot the tech name for this). From his perspective it isn't that
simple. He has seen the BLKSIZE field of the label be H'0' and then the
new fields now contain data. This is probably going to have to mature a
bit.


I was wrong. I confused block count field of HDR1/EOF1/EOV1 with block 
size field of HDR2/EOF2/EOV2. Indeed, zero's means you should read bytes 
71-80 for block size. BTW: ADRDSSU does not use LBI, but writes 64kB 
blocks. It always sets block size as 0. That's why ADRDSSU dumps cannot 
be copied using "legal" methods, like IEBGENER.



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: VSAM CLOSE failure problem

[Terry Sambrooks]

Hi Mark,

In respect of your VSAM close giving RC=4. I am not a VSAM expert so the 
following may be off beam, but I remembered this quote from the Data Set Macros 
Manual.

"Requirement: If you are sharing subtasks or if you have issued an asynchronous 
request for access to a data set, you must issue a CHECK or an ENDREQ on all

RPLs before you issue a CLOSE or CLOSE TYPE=T. Otherwise, concurrent data set 
I/O activity causes unpredictable results during a close."

I wondered if the above fits with your question?

"Is there any IO call that would/could/should leave the ACBBUSY flag set when 
it returns?   It would seem that this is the most obvious difference between 
all the ACBs." 

Kind Regards - Terry

Terry Sambrooks
Director
KMS-IT Limited
228 Abbeydale Road South
Dore
Sheffield
S17 3LA
UK

Tel: +44 (0)114 262 0933
WEB:
www.legac-e.co.uk


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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Lindy Mayfield]

Would it be correct to say that any "piece" that when removed would result in a 
non-functional OS would then belong to the OS?  I was thinking about JES.  
Nothing works without JES, right?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Van 
Dalsen, Herbie
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

My humble opinion would be the following...
1. OS = Operating system i.e. Any part that operate the system
2. Function = 
a) handle all requests from users / other systems... This implies that
any command thrown at it be it MVC or OI, is handled by the Operating
system.
b) notify users / other systems of its current status... This implies
that any part of the system writing SMF records and or send error
messages.

So all error handlers on the lowest level should be included. Any
program etc that handles requests on the lowest level should be
included.

What would not be included is the next layer... IDCAMS / DFSMS that
intercepts the base error codes and tries its best to send a reasonably
understandable error code. The problem comes when the distinction
between layer 1 and 2 becomes fuzzy ?

Regards

Herbie van Dalsen

---

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Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

[Van Dalsen, Herbie]

My humble opinion would be the following...
1. OS = Operating system i.e. Any part that operate the system
2. Function = 
a) handle all requests from users / other systems... This implies that
any command thrown at it be it MVC or OI, is handled by the Operating
system.
b) notify users / other systems of its current status... This implies
that any part of the system writing SMF records and or send error
messages.

So all error handlers on the lowest level should be included. Any
program etc that handles requests on the lowest level should be
included.

What would not be included is the next layer... IDCAMS / DFSMS that
intercepts the base error codes and tries its best to send a reasonably
understandable error code. The problem comes when the distinction
between layer 1 and 2 becomes fuzzy ?

Regards

Herbie van Dalsen

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
Sent: 28 August 2006 23:49
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What part of z/OS is the OS?

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/28/2006
   at 02:13 PM, Alan Altmark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>It depends on your definition of of "operating system".  The
>classical  definition is the chunk of software that manages the real
>system  resources, allocating them to application programs.

You don't consider access methods to be part of the operating system?
Common services like DAIR and PARSE?

For IBSYS/IBJOB and OS/360 IBM considered the entire code base to be
an operating system.

>That would be, again classically, just BCP: the thing that holds the 
>SVCs.

Not all SVC's are in the BCP, and most of the BCP is not composed of
SVC's, at least not for MVS.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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