Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
I believe I've got that from IBM, over a REGION= in a PROC in SAMPLIB. And don't many contain disclaimers that they're not supported? Well. It's enough to get almost any CBPDO installtion from IBM. Program Directory (supported one) says clearly: Use the following jobs ... form ABC.XYZ.F1. The jobs contain: REGION=4M for IEFBR14 - could the default be to small? REGION=4M for GIMSMP - it doesn't work! why? ;-) etc. etc. Last, but not least: different products have different approach for job customization. This is probably to keep our job more interesting, eve surprising. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:03:30 +0100, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl wrote: REGION=4M for GIMSMP - it doesn't work! why? ;-) Did you open a PMR? If no one does, it won't get fixed. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
In f255efe0ecf08c4a9c1db6aff42354170e55f...@ch2wpmail1.na.ds.ussco.com, on 02/08/2010 at 11:54 AM, Chase, John jch...@ussco.com said: Like IBM formerly did here? ObLegion I never said it was IBM. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
In a6b9336cdb62bb46b9f8708e686a7ea005bde01...@nrhmms8p02.uicnrh.dom, on 02/05/2010 at 09:07 AM, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.com said: We had a software vendor who swore on the insert religious book of choice ObAmbroseBierce He swore that all other religions were gammon, and wore out his knees in the worship of Mammon. Vendor promises don't mean a thing[1] unless they're in the contract and backed up by penalty clauses. [1] Yeah, I know about the Catamore case, but that was an aberration. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
In 398110.13853...@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com, on 02/04/2010 at 03:54 PM, Ed Gould ps2...@yahoo.com said: Then I got back an answer that surprised me something to the effect that the documentation wasn't right. Why should that surprise you? Sometimes the manual really was wrong. sometimes the software was BAD. Both are common. What bothers me is when the *vendor* refers me to examples, and when they don't work says Well, they're only examples. A few days later we get a phone call from a sales type at Neon and he was well lets say less than happy we did not want to buy the product and a few choice sentences. I guess that he didn't want to try selling you the next release. A smart salesman would have apologized and sent your comments to the developers, with a note that he had lost a sale because of the defects you noted. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) In 398110.13853...@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com, on 02/04/2010 at 03:54 PM, Ed Gould ps2...@yahoo.com said: Then I got back an answer that surprised me something to the effect that the documentation wasn't right. Why should that surprise you? Sometimes the manual really was wrong. sometimes the software was BAD. Both are common. What bothers me is when the *vendor* refers me to examples, and when they don't work says Well, they're only examples. Like IBM formerly did here? http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/F1A1D910/15.0 The Note: on this page wasn't there pre-1990, when I tried the sample. :-) -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:08:12 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote: What bothers me is when the *vendor* refers me to examples, and when they don't work says Well, they're only examples. I believe I've got that from IBM, over a REGION= in a PROC in SAMPLIB. And don't many contain disclaimers that they're not supported? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-SNIP On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:08:12 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote: What bothers me is when the *vendor* refers me to examples, and when they don't work says Well, they're only examples. I believe I've got that from IBM, over a REGION= in a PROC in SAMPLIB. And don't many contain disclaimers that they're not supported? ---SNIP Interesting question. At the minimum they should have taken a doc apar (in my opinion). I am of the old school and believe if there is an example in a manuel and it shows X the product should perform and give X as a result. Examples (to me) are guides and if an example guides you to run the product and get the expected output then it either should or at a minimum explain why it does not. Also, I believe you could probably sue them for stating a program does this and it does not. Note this is different than an JCL error issue (in my opinion). Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Mark Zelden wrote: So I guess my point is, putting aside software costs, it is better from an overall system performance perspective to have all GPs. Agreed. If they all run at full speed. OTOH, if the GPs are knee-capped, there can be a break-even point where having zAAPs (or zIIPs) can actually help. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 310-338-0400 x318 edja...@phoenixsoftware.com http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Far be it from me to play the role of IBM's defender, but I cannot let this exchange go unchallenged. Here we have a case where Eric expresses an opinion and Paul treats it as fact and raises the stake in making IBM be the bad guy. Enough with revisionist history. I see it all the time in this town and am loathe to put up with it in my favorite industry. Eric's assertion is wrong (sorry Eric, but it is...customers always have choices. They may not like them, but they have them). At the time of its introduction, the zAAP was marketed to entice the Java crowd to come play on the big boys' machines at a cost that would not break their software budget's back. One of the many benefits to IBM was bragging rights of J2EE on all platforms, a very significant thing. The big boys observed that they finally had a way to run Java on the mainframe that would not break the software usage bank because of expensive Java cycles on general purpose processors. It was a win-win for the customers that could take advantage of it and, of course, IBM. Prior to that, IBM was not very successful at promoting Java on the mainframe, so as the passage of time has shown, the new strategy clearly worked. Assigning ulterior motives to things IBM does can be fun, bloodsport, like politics are in this town. But sometimes, IBM really does behave like the good corporate citizens they should be and are making a profit to boot. After all, are we not still a country that admires free enterprise? Oops, that slipped out. :-) One comment to add to the processor discussion; IBM started marketing the 9672s with 12 CPs in every box when they determined that it was more cost-effective to do that than to produce the 4 and 8 CP models as well (G4/G5 timeframe?). Using microcode to control the powerwho ever thought of that idea should still be trying to spend the bonus for that suggestion. Clearly, there are going to be folks that disagree with this post. I welcome your thoughts. For me, I'm thankful that IBM's technology has provided me with a career for the last thirty plus years. Bob -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 6:10 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 21:31:02 +, Eric Bielefeld wrote: I always thought that the whole specialty engine thing is just not quite right. It is a way to make more money off of some customers who don't have a choice, while trying to win new customers to the mainframe by making their work cheaper. The end result is driving your old customers away because of the cost. I better not say any more or I'll get in trouble. And the prospective new customers, if they're wary, will observe IBM's treatment of its legacy customers and shy away. It's almost like the communication providers: they offer an introductory rate; when it expires they're free to jack your price up. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
I think you're right on it Bob. And I totally agree that perspective comes into play when looking at this, thanks. For us taking delivery of WAS 3.02 back in 2001, as freeware if I remember correctly, seemed like a prudent move to save work from continually going to the other side. We had a development management type who worked mainframe and midrange/open who's vision was to deploy where he believed the work should be hosted. When we put WAS 3.02 up on a small RB6 G5 machine they jumped on it. It was not a pretty sight from a performance capacity perspective, in the early stages. My rants are in the archives here and on MXG. We managed to work out bugs in the application and as a single server instance I did not have to do much in WLM to find a spot for it in the hierarchy. We eventually upgraded to WAS 3.5 and then 4.0 (3.5 compatibility mode single server instance). All was still relatively good except for the CPU spins we would take which would bring the system to its knees - I built a resource group for those special occasions. When it was decided to move to WAS V5 that's when I started to really feel the pain due to the construct difference between single server instance and cell group. At this point we were already looking at z800 and then z890 and at that point, from a pure performance/cost perspective, the only option getting us out of that mess was a zAAP. The upgrade costs to support anything other than a similar speed z/890 w/zAAP were prohibitive. And to me personally, as the performance guy, I'm looking at it as a significant performance improvement over another knee-capped GP CP. I'm currently in a similar situation right now with an older z890 and similar speed GP CP's and no zAAP trying to shoehorn WAS V7. So while I agree Mark with your statements about engine switching overhead and running all GP CP's over a mix of GP SP CP's there are obvious situations where a knee-capped machine w/SP CP's can out perform an all GP CP knee-capped machine. So in effect, this is my *perspective* of the overall situation and how we evolved with WAS on the mainframe. And while I did say in a previous post *something had to be done* I still feel something did have to be done to help supplement the CPU requirements of WAS while limiting is potential performance impact to the traditional work all running together on the same LPAR, from a performance perspective. I'm not talking about 10 way high speed machines here, I'm talking about a lot of folks just trying to move ahead with the technology in small and mid-size environments where the luxury of having full speed GP CP's is not an option. That costing/marketing gimmicks came into play is all good and added to helping customer stave off some of the migration to other platforms. --- On Fri, 2/5/10, Richards, Robert B. robert.richa...@opm.gov wrote: From: Richards, Robert B. robert.richa...@opm.gov Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 12:06 PM Far be it from me to play the role of IBM's defender, but I cannot let this exchange go unchallenged. Here we have a case where Eric expresses an opinion and Paul treats it as fact and raises the stake in making IBM be the bad guy. Enough with revisionist history. I see it all the time in this town and am loathe to put up with it in my favorite industry. Eric's assertion is wrong (sorry Eric, but it is...customers always have choices. They may not like them, but they have them). At the time of its introduction, the zAAP was marketed to entice the Java crowd to come play on the big boys' machines at a cost that would not break their software budget's back. One of the many benefits to IBM was bragging rights of J2EE on all platforms, a very significant thing. The big boys observed that they finally had a way to run Java on the mainframe that would not break the software usage bank because of expensive Java cycles on general purpose processors. It was a win-win for the customers that could take advantage of it and, of course, IBM. Prior to that, IBM was not very successful at promoting Java on the mainframe, so as the passage of time has shown, the new strategy clearly worked. Assigning ulterior motives to things IBM does can be fun, bloodsport, like politics are in this town. But sometimes, IBM really does behave like the good corporate citizens they should be and are making a profit to boot. After all, are we not still a country that admires free enterprise? Oops, that slipped out. :-) One comment to add to the processor discussion; IBM started marketing the 9672s with 12 CPs in every box when they determined that it was more cost-effective to do that than to produce the 4 and 8 CP models as well (G4/G5 timeframe?). Using microcode to control the powerwho ever thought of that idea should still be trying to spend the bonus for that suggestion. Clearly
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
I understood the when customer does not have a choice in a completely different way. ( but then english is not my native language) In this particular case or thread , I understood that it meant a customer who cannot avoid being a z/OS customer ( because he has a trillion z/os applications that would need 20 years to move onto another platform. Or because he has only cobol programmers or whatever expensive reason. The idea being that for these customers, the prices can be kept artificially high on whatever run on GP processors because IBM does not sell or rent z/OS on other platforms than IBM mainframe. my 0.99 euros :) Bruno Sugliani zxnetconsult(at)free(dot)fr On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:06:45 -0500, Richards, Robert B. robert.richa...@opm.gov wrote: Far be it from me to play the role of IBM's defender, but I cannot let this exchange go unchallenged. Here we have a case where Eric expresses an opinion and Paul treats it as fact and raises the stake in making IBM be the bad guy. Enough with revisionist history. I see it all the time in this town and am loathe to put up with it in my favorite industry. Eric's assertion is wrong (sorry Eric, but it is...customers always have choices. They may not like them, but they have them). At the time of its introduction, the zAAP was marketed to entice the Java crowd to come play on the big boys' machines at a cost that would not break their software budget's back. One of the many benefits to IBM was bragging rights of J2EE on all platforms, a very significant thing. The big boys observed that they finally had a way to run Java on the mainframe that would not break the software usage bank because of expensive Java cycles on general purpose processors. It was a win-win for the customers that could take advantage of it and, of course, IBM. Prior to that, IBM was not very successful at promoting Java on the mainframe, so as the passage of time has shown, the new strategy clearly worked. Assigning ulterior motives to things IBM does can be fun, bloodsport, like politics are in this town. But sometimes, IBM really does behave like the good corporate citizens they should be and are making a profit to boot. After all, are we not still a country that admires free enterprise? Oops, that slipped out. :-) One comment to add to the processor discussion; IBM started marketing the 9672s with 12 CPs in every box when they determined that it was more cost-effective to do that than to produce the 4 and 8 CP models as well (G4/G5 timeframe?). Using microcode to control the powerwho ever thought of that idea should still be trying to spend the bonus for that suggestion. Clearly, there are going to be folks that disagree with this post. I welcome your thoughts. For me, I'm thankful that IBM's technology has provided me with a career for the last thirty plus years. Bob -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Sugliani Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator I understood the when customer does not have a choice in a completely different way. ( but then english is not my native language) In this particular case or thread , I understood that it meant a customer who cannot avoid being a z/OS customer ( because he has a trillion z/os applications that would need 20 years to move onto another platform. Or because he has only cobol programmers or whatever expensive reason. The idea being that for these customers, the prices can be kept artificially high on whatever run on GP processors because IBM does not sell or rent z/OS on other platforms than IBM mainframe. my 0.99 euros :) Bruno Sugliani zxnetconsult(at)free(dot)fr Well, customers always have a choice. But not necessarily any desirable ones. A few years ago, our then-management was in a mode of replace all systems with Wintel. We had a software vendor who swore on the insert religious book of choice that they had a way to replace __all__ of our z/OS programs (COBOL, assembler, EasyTrieve Plus, JCL, REXX, ... - batch and CICS) with equivalent .NET based applications. And, they also averred (word of the day!) that the cost would be less than keeping the current z-based applications. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:07 PM, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.comwrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Sugliani Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator I understood the when customer does not have a choice in a completely different way. ( but then english is not my native language) In this particular case or thread , I understood that it meant a customer who cannot avoid being a z/OS customer ( because he has a trillion z/os applications that would need 20 years to move onto another platform. Or because he has only cobol programmers or whatever expensive reason. The idea being that for these customers, the prices can be kept artificially high on whatever run on GP processors because IBM does not sell or rent z/OS on other platforms than IBM mainframe. my 0.99 euros :) Bruno Sugliani zxnetconsult(at)free(dot)fr Well, customers always have a choice. But not necessarily any desirable ones. A few years ago, our then-management was in a mode of replace all systems with Wintel. We had a software vendor who swore on the insert religious book of choice that they had a way to replace __all__ of our z/OS programs (COBOL, assembler, EasyTrieve Plus, JCL, REXX, ... - batch and CICS) with equivalent .NET based applications. And, they also averred (word of the day!) that the cost would be less than keeping the current z-based applications. And the result was? ... -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.comhttp://www.healthmarkets.com/ Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Sugliani Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator I understood the when customer does not have a choice in a completely different way. ( but then english is not my native language) In this particular case or thread , I understood that it meant a customer who cannot avoid being a z/OS customer ( because he has a trillion z/os applications that would need 20 years to move onto another platform. Or because he has only cobol programmers or whatever expensive reason. The idea being that for these customers, the prices can be kept artificially high on whatever run on GP processors because IBM does not sell or rent z/OS on other platforms than IBM mainframe. my 0.99 euros :) Bruno Sugliani zxnetconsult(at)free(dot)fr Well, customers always have a choice. But not necessarily any desirable ones. A few years ago, our then-management was in a mode of replace all systems with Wintel. We had a software vendor who swore on the insert religious book of choice that they had a way to replace __all__ of our z/OS programs (COBOL, assembler, EasyTrieve Plus, JCL, REXX, ... - batch and CICS) with equivalent .NET based applications. And, they also averred (word of the day!) that the cost would be less than keeping the current z-based applications. Did that vendor also aver that the resulting quality of service would equal or exceed that of the z-based applications? Or did your then-management deem that an irrelevant consideration? -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Sam Siegel On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:07 PM, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.comwrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Sugliani Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator I understood the when customer does not have a choice in a completely different way. ( but then english is not my native language) In this particular case or thread , I understood that it meant a customer who cannot avoid being a z/OS customer ( because he has a trillion z/os applications that would need 20 years to move onto another platform. Or because he has only cobol programmers or whatever expensive reason. The idea being that for these customers, the prices can be kept artificially high on whatever run on GP processors because IBM does not sell or rent z/OS on other platforms than IBM mainframe. my 0.99 euros :) Bruno Sugliani zxnetconsult(at)free(dot)fr Well, customers always have a choice. But not necessarily any desirable ones. A few years ago, our then-management was in a mode of replace all systems with Wintel. We had a software vendor who swore on the insert religious book of choice that they had a way to replace __all__ of our z/OS programs (COBOL, assembler, EasyTrieve Plus, JCL, REXX, ... - batch and CICS) with equivalent .NET based applications. And, they also averred (word of the day!) that the cost would be less than keeping the current z-based applications. And the result was? ... The term then-management seems self-explanatory: They are not the now-management. :-) -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Chase, John jch...@ussco.com wrote in message news:f255efe0ecf08c4a9c1db6aff42354170e4c8...@ch2wpmail1.na.ds.ussco.co m... -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Sam Siegel On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:07 PM, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.comwrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Sugliani Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator I understood the when customer does not have a choice in a completely different way. ( but then english is not my native language) In this particular case or thread , I understood that it meant a customer who cannot avoid being a z/OS customer ( because he has a trillion z/os applications that would need 20 years to move onto another platform. Or because he has only cobol programmers or whatever expensive reason. The idea being that for these customers, the prices can be kept artificially high on whatever run on GP processors because IBM does not sell or rent z/OS on other platforms than IBM mainframe. my 0.99 euros :) Bruno Sugliani zxnetconsult(at)free(dot)fr Well, customers always have a choice. But not necessarily any desirable ones. A few years ago, our then-management was in a mode of replace all systems with Wintel. We had a software vendor who swore on the insert religious book of choice that they had a way to replace __all__ of our z/OS programs (COBOL, assembler, EasyTrieve Plus, JCL, REXX, ... - batch and CICS) with equivalent .NET based applications. And, they also averred (word of the day!) that the cost would be less than keeping the current z-based applications. And the result was? ... The term then-management seems self-explanatory: They are not the now-management. :-) -jc- 'Because of' or just by natural evolution? Kees. ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Siegel Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:12 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator snip And the result was? ... They were foolish enough to write down their proposal. And we in mainframe Tech Services ripped them into shreds on some simple questions. Like how to do post-mortem debugging. How to do performance monitoring (like Mainview/CICS). How the production schedulers could monitor batch work (like SDSF and Mainview for z/OS). How to know what was causing the performance problem for a particular application? Either Windows doesn't have this. Or it requires extra cost software which was not part of the proposal. Or they simply didn't know. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:13 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator -Original Message- snip Did that vendor also aver that the resulting quality of service would equal or exceed that of the z-based applications? Or did your then-management deem that an irrelevant consideration? -jc- Oh, they did guarantee that the cost would be less and the performance at least equal to the performance on the z. Basically the proposed a particular hardware configuration, but stated that they would upgrade that configuration for no cost if performance did not meet or exceed the performance on the z for the equivalent applications. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [On Behalf Of McKown, John -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:13 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator -Original Message- snip Did that vendor also aver that the resulting quality of service would equal or exceed that of the z-based applications? Or did your then-management deem that an irrelevant consideration? -jc- Oh, they did guarantee that the cost would be less and the performance at least equal to the performance on the z. Basically the proposed a particular hardware configuration, but stated that they would upgrade that configuration for no cost if performance did not meet or exceed the performance on the z for the equivalent applications. Hmmm You might have wound up with a Google-plex. :-) -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Evolution ? ... I thought he was talking about management ? Sorry ... It is Friday !! The term then-management seems self-explanatory: They are not the now-management. :-) -jc- 'Because of' or just by natural evolution? Kees. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html This e-mail message, including any attachments transmitted with it, is CONFIDENTIAL and may contain legally privileged information. This message is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and delete it from your system. Please visit our website to read the full disclaimer: http://www.euroclear.com/site/public/disclaimer
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:12:34 -0600, Chase, John jch...@ussco.com wrote: Did that vendor also aver that the resulting quality of service would equal or exceed that of the z-based applications? Or did your then-management deem that an irrelevant consideration? The main reason a lot of customers moved from this platform to weaker ones is often because they did not need z/OS stability in the first place and could save money by moving on other OS'es . This aspect is sometimes forgotten by people and when or if something happens on the new platform, the usual laugh about the weakness of the new platform but mainly the stupidity of the management is brought forward But in fact all shops inherited it from the 60's or 70's when it was the main or only way to make data processing. In my country when some government entities receive paiement ( did i say tax ?) 3 or 4 times a year on fixed dates , they do not necessarily need a parrallel sysplex with subsecond response time do to that ( no flak please it is an example) I know shops that can afford downtime of 24 hours without hurting. On the other hand they often need some very secure way of protecting the data. And other platforms can also do this kind of job very efficiently because the disks or tapes are generally the same . A lot of banks ( even if these days it is not necessarily a good example) did not wait to run their critical businesses on other platforms so it must no be that bad Bruno Sugliani zxnetconsult(at)free(dot)fr -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Chase, John jch...@ussco.com wrote: Hmmm You might have wound up with a Google-plex. :-) Or a z10... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Bruno Sugliani oldti...@wanadoo.fr wrote: The main reason a lot of customers moved from this platform to weaker ones is often because they did not need z/OS stability in the first place and could save money by moving on other OS'es . This aspect is sometimes forgotten by people and when or if something happens on the new platform, the usual laugh about the weakness of the new platform but mainly the stupidity of the management is brought forward snip This is an excellent point. Good enough is good enough is something too many shops have forgotten -- consultants rant about best of breed, when good enough is more appropriate. I'm as big a z bigot as any of you, but it doesn't make sense for everyone. ...phsiii -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Correct. I hadn't considered the fact that 9-9s available on the z doesn't do much good if the end user cannot access it due to intermediate errors (like network down, desktop broken, AD down so cannot logon to Windows Domain, etc). -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Phil Smith III Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:13 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Bruno Sugliani oldti...@wanadoo.fr wrote: The main reason a lot of customers moved from this platform to weaker ones is often because they did not need z/OS stability in the first place and could save money by moving on other OS'es . This aspect is sometimes forgotten by people and when or if something happens on the new platform, the usual laugh about the weakness of the new platform but mainly the stupidity of the management is brought forward snip This is an excellent point. Good enough is good enough is something too many shops have forgotten -- consultants rant about best of breed, when good enough is more appropriate. I'm as big a z bigot as any of you, but it doesn't make sense for everyone. ...phsiii -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On 2/5/2010 10:15 AM, Phil Smith III wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Bruno Suglianioldti...@wanadoo.fr wrote: The main reason a lot of customers moved from this platform to weaker ones is often because they did not need z/OS stability in the first place and could save money by moving on other OS'es . This aspect is sometimes forgotten by people and when or if something happens on the new platform, the usual laugh about the weakness of the new platform but mainly the stupidity of the management is brought forward snip This is an excellent point. Good enough is good enough is something too many shops have forgotten -- consultants rant about best of breed, when good enough is more appropriate. I'm as big a z bigot as any of you, but it doesn't make sense for everyone. True enough, but the customers aren't consistent either. We had a group that demanded sub-second response time, and complained whenever they didn't get. But when they move to a Windows based system, suddenly 30 second response to a mouse click was ok. -- Richard -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
And the prospective new customers, if they're wary, will observe IBM's treatment of its legacy customers and shy away. That, IMO, is an unfair statement! While not perfect, I've found, over the last 30 years, that IBM's treatment of its customers is d*mn good. Unlike certain (Islandia, New York, for example) vendors! It's almost like the communication providers: they offer an introductory rate; when it expires they're free to jack your price up. I really hate it when one vendor knocks its competition in a public forum. (PS: I'm also sick of comments complaining about decisions made 40 years ago, retained to continue to guarantee consistent results) - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of zMan On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Chase, John jch...@ussco.com wrote: Hmmm You might have wound up with a Google-plex. :-) Or a z10... I think he has a z10 anyway. :-) -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Vernooij, CP - SPLXM Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:23 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator snip 'Because of' or just by natural evolution? Kees. ** That is never discussed around here. Management just pops in and out of existance around here like virtual quantum particles. They come in, mess up everything that has been working, then go away to work their magic at some other company. They are let go (like inmates?) to pursue personal advancements. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
With big bonuses and retirement packages Jon L. Veilleux veilleu...@aetna.com (860) 636-9179 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 2:33 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Vernooij, CP - SPLXM Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:23 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator snip 'Because of' or just by natural evolution? Kees. ** That is never discussed around here. Management just pops in and out of existance around here like virtual quantum particles. They come in, mess up everything that has been working, then go away to work their magic at some other company. They are let go (like inmates?) to pursue personal advancements. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html This e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information. If you think you have received this e-mail in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this e-mail immediately. Thank you. Aetna -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-snip--- That is never discussed around here. Management just pops in and out of existance around here like virtual quantum particles. They come in, mess up everything that has been working, then go away to work their magic at some other company. They are let go (like inmates?) to pursue personal advancements. --unsnip Around my old company, it was to seek alternative challenges. :-) Rick -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Does the hardware store have a right to control the use of any hammers it sold? Does the carpenter have a right to ignore the hardware store's conditions of the sale? Does the craftsman have a right to modify the hammers? Or should carpenter switch to screws and a drill? You're comparing hampsters to stilletos. IBM ISV's have all sorts of conditions in their contracts. And, the comparisoin to hammers, screws, drills, etc is irrelevant. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Veilleux, Jon L Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 1:43 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator With big bonuses and retirement packages Jon L. Veilleux veilleu...@aetna.com (860) 636-9179 I'm just a grunt. I wouldn't know anything about that. But I doubt it because they were not high enough in the hierarchy. After all, they were here in TX, not in NYC. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:37:36 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: I'm not trying to start an argument, but performance is not about beliefs or gut feelings. It's about measurements and data / facts to back it up. I agree completely. The fact is, that there is overhead in engine switching to move work over to a specialty processor, so I'm not inclined to believe that from a performance perspective, overall, a system would run better with a split between zAAPs and GPs as opposed to all GPs. Is that a belief or is it based upon measurements and data? Now, I can see that WAS could run better since the zAAP(s) could be sitting there servicing the java work without competition - but the rest of the system could be CPU starved (also, remember the additional overhead if these engines are in another book). So I guess my point is, putting aside software costs, it is better from an overall system performance perspective to have all GPs. Again, is that belief or measurement? -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:19:18 -0600, Tom Marchant m42tom-ibmm...@yahoo.com wrote: On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:37:36 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: I'm not trying to start an argument, but performance is not about beliefs or gut feelings. It's about measurements and data / facts to back it up. I agree completely. So I guess my point is, putting aside software costs, it is better from an overall system performance perspective to have all GPs. Again, is that belief or measurement? Measurement. There is a measurable overhead in switching work over to a specialty processor. Patrick already quoted / linked to one source: http://www.itindepth.com/JoseCastano-zAAP.htm ... less than 5% - we usually see around 1-3% in lab measurements - a recent customer measured 2% Frankly, I am a little surprised about the way this thread has gone. zAAPs and zIIPs weren't invented to improve performance. They were created for marketing and software pricing since that is a major issue with our platform. If all the engines and software were cheaper, the platform would be better off without them. (and yes, I'm still leaving out the caveat of full spead zAAPs/zIIPs on a knee-capped box - again, that is a marketing point to help sell them, to decrease software costs and encourage new workloads). Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:35:55 -0600, Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com wrote: Frankly, I am a little surprised about the way this thread has gone. zAAPs and zIIPs weren't invented to improve performance. They were created for marketing and software pricing since that is a major issue with our platform. If all the engines and software were cheaper, the platform would be better off without them. (and yes, I'm still leaving out the caveat of full spead zAAPs/zIIPs on a knee-capped box - again, that is a marketing point to help sell them, to decrease software costs and encourage new workloads). Yes I am a bit surprised as well about the way this thread is going. Perhaps the marketing talks about the benefits of zAAPs and zIIPs has worked better than we thought. Obviously people started believing it was to improve performance ! I am puzzled :) Bruno Sugliani zxnetconsult(at)free(dot)fr -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:35:55 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: zAAPs and zIIPs weren't invented to improve performance. They were created for marketing and software pricing since that is a major issue with our platform. If all the engines and software were cheaper, the platform would be better off without them. I agree. I would add that kneecapped engines are also a marketing gimmick that we could do without if they would fix the pricing. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
We have a z9BC-T02 (soon to be downgraded to a Q02). A zAAP will definately out perform a CP in our circumstance. Well, for Java work, that is. If we had any. So, it is true that a unstricted CP and a zAAP run at the same speed. Therefore, in the situation where software costs are not relevant, an unretricted CP is better, more peformant, than a zAAP. Even for zAAP eligable work! Now, how many people here think that software costs are not relevant? Don't be shy! So, even if you have unrestricted CPs, a zAAP may be more cost effective than a CP. For zAAP eligible work, that is. zAAPs cost less to acquire than CPs. zAAPS don't add to your software bill. So, if while it may well be true that a CP is better when looked at in a pure performance scenario, for TCO purposes a zAAP may be a far better choice. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Sugliani Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 8:55 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:35:55 -0600, Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com wrote: Frankly, I am a little surprised about the way this thread has gone. zAAPs and zIIPs weren't invented to improve performance. They were created for marketing and software pricing since that is a major issue with our platform. If all the engines and software were cheaper, the platform would be better off without them. (and yes, I'm still leaving out the caveat of full spead zAAPs/zIIPs on a knee-capped box - again, that is a marketing point to help sell them, to decrease software costs and encourage new workloads). Yes I am a bit surprised as well about the way this thread is going. Perhaps the marketing talks about the benefits of zAAPs and zIIPs has worked better than we thought. Obviously people started believing it was to improve performance ! I am puzzled :) Bruno Sugliani zxnetconsult(at)free(dot)fr -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:04:21 -0600, Tom Marchant m42tom-ibmm...@yahoo.com wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:35:55 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: zAAPs and zIIPs weren't invented to improve performance. They were created for marketing and software pricing since that is a major issue with our platform. If all the engines and software were cheaper, the platform would be better off without them. I agree. I would add that kneecapped engines are also a marketing gimmick that we could do without if they would fix the pricing. Not at all. That part has nothing to do wth a marketing gimmick. It's a way for IBM to manufacture the same engines (savings for IBM) and still provide many different engines speeds at different price points to meet the customer's requirements. No different than IBM trying to use the same parts for system z and other non-z platforms. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
As long as we are throwing opinions in here, I'll add mine. And you get what you have paid for it. :-) Depending on the actual scenario, I have seen cases where both Mark and Patrick are correct (measurement). But if the truth be known (belief), most managers would manage to the $$$ bottom line, so the overhead of CP switching is an acceptable compromise regardless of its impact (belief, but backed by actual experience). John's point about software costs echo mine. zAAPs were initially acquired because shops didn't want CPU-hogging JAVA work to monopolize CPs under any circumstances. It wasn't about JAVA performing well; it was about them not affecting other work. As JAVA on z/OS has become more pervasive, its performance became important and the paradigm has shifted slightly. But costs are still the yardstick most shops configure to. Reviewing zIIP and zAAP eligible time relative to the S4HRA of MSUs is normally a sufficient cost justification for acquiring additional specialty engines *because* while we entertain thoughts of cheap GP CPs, we ain't there yet! :-) Bob -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:05 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator We have a z9BC-T02 (soon to be downgraded to a Q02). A zAAP will definately out perform a CP in our circumstance. Well, for Java work, that is. If we had any. So, it is true that a unstricted CP and a zAAP run at the same speed. Therefore, in the situation where software costs are not relevant, an unretricted CP is better, more peformant, than a zAAP. Even for zAAP eligable work! Now, how many people here think that software costs are not relevant? Don't be shy! So, even if you have unrestricted CPs, a zAAP may be more cost effective than a CP. For zAAP eligible work, that is. zAAPs cost less to acquire than CPs. zAAPS don't add to your software bill. So, if while it may well be true that a CP is better when looked at in a pure performance scenario, for TCO purposes a zAAP may be a far better choice. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:23:59 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:04:21 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote: I would add that kneecapped engines are also a marketing gimmick that we could do without if they would fix the pricing. Not at all. That part has nothing to do wth a marketing gimmick. It's a way for IBM to manufacture the same engines (savings for IBM) and still provide many different engines speeds at different price points to meet the customer's requirements. We can disagree about this. The kneecapped engines are _exactly_ the same as the full speed ones. It isn't like they are selecting parts that won't perform at full spec or something. Said another way, if they are able to make money selling the systems with kneecapped engines, it is a marketing gimmick to sell the exact same hardware that is allowed to run full speed. It's like when I worked for Amdahl in the '70's and they introduced the 470V/5. It was purely a marketing gimmick, and was acknowledged as such. If Ferrari sold cars for less money with governors that kept them from going over 80 MPH it would be the same thing. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Uhh, the same engines...at different price points -- sure sounds like marketing to me! -- Regards, Gord Tomlin Action Software International (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation) Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507 Mark Zelden wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:04:21 -0600, Tom Marchant m42tom-ibmm...@yahoo.com wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:35:55 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: zAAPs and zIIPs weren't invented to improve performance. They were created for marketing and software pricing since that is a major issue with our platform. If all the engines and software were cheaper, the platform would be better off without them. I agree. I would add that kneecapped engines are also a marketing gimmick that we could do without if they would fix the pricing. Not at all. That part has nothing to do wth a marketing gimmick. It's a way for IBM to manufacture the same engines (savings for IBM) and still provide many different engines speeds at different price points to meet the customer's requirements. No different than IBM trying to use the same parts for system z and other non-z platforms. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:50:55 -0500, Gord Tomlin gt.ibm.li...@actionsoftware.com wrote: Uhh, the same engines...at different price points -- sure sounds like marketing to me! On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:50:02 -0600, Tom Marchant m42tom-ibmm...@yahoo.com wrote: We can disagree about this. The kneecapped engines are _exactly_ the same as the full speed ones. It isn't like they are selecting parts that won't perform at full spec or something. Said another way, if they are able to make money selling the systems with kneecapped engines, it is a marketing gimmick to sell the exact same hardware that is allowed to run full speed. I see what you are both saying. I guess it's the gimmick part I don't really agree with. Finding ways to manufacture something cheaper but still giving the consumer a product for the same price that does the same thing or better (if you consider the technology dividend in the specific case of system z) doesn't seem like a gimmick. It's smart business. In other words, to the end user, what's the difference in the inside parts changed and I am still getting a good deal. Would you feel better if IBM manufactured **130 different engine types for the z10 and you got the one rated at the MSU level you get today? ** the z10 BC has 130 different capacity settings alone, but that includes a combination of knee-capping and number of engines If Ferrari sold cars for less money with governors that kept them from going over 80 MPH it would be the same thing. If I could get a Ferrari for the same price as my Mustang, guess what... I would probably do it. Even if it could only go 80 MPH (which more than meets my requirements and is still well above the legal speed limit). It could be a win-win for the manufacturer and myself. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
having exploited z/IIPs very heavily with CA-IDMS, the *only* reason i was exploiting z/IIPs was to reduce software costs, not to improve performance are clients ADDING SPs to complement existing GPs? if so - there might be performance improvement, but it seems that the improvement would be no better than if they were to have purchased a corresponding number of GPs OR are clients REPLACING GPs with SPs? i wonder if *those* clients are seeing performance improvements? Chris Hoelscher Senior IDMS DB2 Database Administrator Humana Inc 502-476-2538 choelsc...@humana.com you only need to test the programs that you want to work correctly The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain CONFIDENTIAL material. If you receive this material/information in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy the material/information. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:25:52 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:50:02 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote: We can disagree about this. ... if they are able to make money selling the systems with kneecapped engines, it is a marketing gimmick to sell the exact same hardware that is allowed to run full speed. I see what you are both saying. I guess it's the gimmick part I don't really agree with. Finding ways to manufacture something cheaper but still giving the consumer a product for the same price that does the same thing or better (if you consider the technology dividend in the specific case of system z) doesn't seem like a gimmick. It's smart business. I don't follow what you are saying here. Of course it is good to find ways to manufacture something less expensively. The kneecapped machines are not less expensive to manufacture though. In other words, to the end user, what's the difference in the inside parts changed and I am still getting a good deal. Would you feel better if IBM manufactured **130 different engine types for the z10 and you got the one rated at the MSU level you get today? No. That would be absurd. What is the benefit of 130 different capacity settings? Only one that I can think of: Software costs. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
The way I see Mark's argument is that it is a lot cheaper for IBM to make 1 processor book, with a set number of processors running at a set speed than to make 130 different combinations of speeds and numbers of engines. I don't need an 8 way, full speed machine to run my business. If I were to have to pay for that size machine to run my business, management would have gotten off the mainframe years ago. As it is, IBM sold me a really knee-capped machine (z9-bc) with a single engine active, running at about 1/3 the speed it is capable of, and it was cheaper for IBM to kneecap a full size box and sell it to me at the size I needed than it would have been for them to build me a box that was exactly the size I needed. Some call this a gimmick, others call it good business practices. Po-taa-to, po-tah-to. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:47 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:25:52 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:50:02 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote: We can disagree about this. ... if they are able to make money selling the systems with kneecapped engines, it is a marketing gimmick to sell the exact same hardware that is allowed to run full speed. I see what you are both saying. I guess it's the gimmick part I don't really agree with. Finding ways to manufacture something cheaper but still giving the consumer a product for the same price that does the same thing or better (if you consider the technology dividend in the specific case of system z) doesn't seem like a gimmick. It's smart business. I don't follow what you are saying here. Of course it is good to find ways to manufacture something less expensively. The kneecapped machines are not less expensive to manufacture though. In other words, to the end user, what's the difference in the inside parts changed and I am still getting a good deal. Would you feel better if IBM manufactured **130 different engine types for the z10 and you got the one rated at the MSU level you get today? No. That would be absurd. What is the benefit of 130 different capacity settings? Only one that I can think of: Software costs. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
I always thought that the whole specialty engine thing is just not quite right. It is a way to make more money off of some customers who don't have a choice, while trying to win new customers to the mainframe by making their work cheaper. The end result is driving your old customers away because of the cost. I better not say any more or I'll get in trouble. -- Eric Bielefeld Systems Programmer IBM MVS Technical Services Dubuque, Iowa 563-845-4363 Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com wrote: Frankly, I am a little surprised about the way this thread has gone. zAAPs and zIIPs weren't invented to improve performance. They were created for marketing and software pricing since that is a major issue with our platform. If all the engines and software were cheaper, the platform would be better off without them. (and yes, I'm still leaving out the caveat of full spead zAAPs/zIIPs on a knee-capped box - again, that is a marketing point to help sell them, to decrease software costs and encourage new workloads). Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:46:30 -0600, Tom Marchant m42tom-ibmm...@yahoo.com wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:25:52 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:50:02 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote: We can disagree about this. ... if they are able to make money selling the systems with kneecapped engines, it is a marketing gimmick to sell the exact same hardware that is allowed to run full speed. I see what you are both saying. I guess it's the gimmick part I don't really agree with. Finding ways to manufacture something cheaper but still giving the consumer a product for the same price that does the same thing or better (if you consider the technology dividend in the specific case of system z) doesn't seem like a gimmick. It's smart business. I don't follow what you are saying here. Of course it is good to find ways to manufacture something less expensively. The kneecapped machines are not less expensive to manufacture though. They are less expensive to manufacture than it would be to have different designs / parts / etc. etc. for low end models. In other words, to the end user, what's the difference in the inside parts changed and I am still getting a good deal. Would you feel better if IBM manufactured **130 different engine types for the z10 and you got the one rated at the MSU level you get today? No. That would be absurd. What is the benefit of 130 different capacity settings? Only one that I can think of: Software costs. That benefit is to you - the consumer, not to IBM in manufacturing costs. I think we've probably killed the horse by now, but I will use a similar analogy that I saw in the law suit. I have a cable box and pay a vendor to supply me a basic set of channels and some premium channels. There are many more premium channels that the box can get using the same hardware and cable connections already coming into my home but I can't get them. Is it a gimmick for the cable company to want to charge me more to get those channels? Or are they providing a service and want to be compensated more for increased service. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Eric Bielefeld Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:31 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator I always thought that the whole specialty engine thing is just not quite right. It is a way to make more money off of some customers who don't have a choice, while trying to win new customers to the mainframe by making their work cheaper. The end result is driving your old customers away because of the cost. I better not say any more or I'll get in trouble. -- Eric Bielefeld I agree. The real problem is software cost. Speciality engines and knee-capped CPs are just a way to try to address that. But, then software vendors need to make money too. And if they did not charge by MSU (or value units or cores or some other power unit), then more and more companies would consolidate into mega centers run by outsourcing companies, or co-operatives. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 4:54 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator Snipped I agree. The real problem is software cost. Speciality engines and knee- capped CPs are just a way to try to address that. But, then software vendors need to make money too. And if they did not charge by MSU (or value units or cores or some other power unit), then more and more companies would consolidate into mega centers run by outsourcing companies, or co-operatives. Not a problem if the charge is by LPAR that uses the software rather than by how powerful that LPAR is. Same as for the itty-bitty machines, charge by (logical, in our case) machine. Moderate OTC per machine with a 10-15% yearly maintenance fee per machine. Result: More LPAR's running your software due to more licenses and a reasonable continuing revenue stream. Nominal version upgrade charges for new-function versions (the difference between the old version OTC and the new version OTC). Your profit is in your volume of licenses, not in the power of your client's machines. Just not as much commission for the sales droids, that's all. Probably never get done by IBM, because as TJ Watson Jr. (or was that Sam Palmisano?) stated publically to investors and analysts, IBM will never stay in a commodity business. High-margin business or no business at all was his (and IBM's) credo. Peter This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 21:31:02 +, Eric Bielefeld wrote: I always thought that the whole specialty engine thing is just not quite right. It is a way to make more money off of some customers who don't have a choice, while trying to win new customers to the mainframe by making their work cheaper. The end result is driving your old customers away because of the cost. I better not say any more or I'll get in trouble. And the prospective new customers, if they're wary, will observe IBM's treatment of its legacy customers and shy away. It's almost like the communication providers: they offer an introductory rate; when it expires they're free to jack your price up. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 15:38:40 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: I think we've probably killed the horse by now, but I will use a similar analogy that I saw in the law suit. I have a cable box and pay a vendor to supply me a basic set of channels and some premium channels. There are many more premium channels that the box can get using the same hardware and cable connections already coming into my home but I can't get them. Is it a gimmick for the cable company to want to charge me more to get those channels? Or are they providing a service and want to be compensated more for increased service. And if you hack the converter box to get premimum channels at the basic rate, the injured party is clearly the cable company, not the vendor of the converter box. Likewise, IBM is stressing violation of the software licenses above abuse of the hardware. This depends on the language in the software license; if it focuses on the hardware model, IBM's legal position is not as strong as if they focused on the general vs. special engines. This is likely to be far more explicit at the next renewal cycle. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote: This is likely to be far more explicit at the next renewal cycle. Understatement of the week! :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
SNIP I'm not sure why the jubilation. Sure, Neon is in business to make money. They're trying to do so by offering IBM's customers a way to save money. Whether it's legal or not is for the courts to decide; they haven't rendered that decision yet. Until then, in the interest of their pocketbooks, pragmatic customers should be rooting for Neon. ---SNIP- Paul: Neon has been sort of a loose cannon in the business for quite some time. My memory is not fresh on this but here it goes. 15+ years ago we were looking at a package (details dim sorry). One of the options that we looked at was a NEON product. We called and arranged to have a demo tape shipped. I installed it (with issues). As I went through the install I made notes on issues. After I got it installed I tried it out on some items and it did have issues which I did call NEON on. I did not get answers. I called back on the install issues and got a who cares attitude which did not go down well with me. We let the users try it out and they ran into problems and I called support and got another run around and after some pushing they said something like well of course it didn't work that way and it is not suppose to. I looked at the manual while we were talking and I saw the example the user tried and it looked the same to me. I asked them what about the example on page xx isn't that the same? Then I got back an answer that surprised me something to the effect that the documentation wasn't right. After I got off the phone I wrote a 3 page memo to the boss outlining the issues I had with the product and the users issues (at least the ones I was told about). I shipped it off to my boss and cc'd the manager of the group the product that was testing it. I guess my boss talked to NEON and then to the (other) manager and sent out an email that I was to de-install it and ship the product back. A few days later we get a phone call from a sales type at Neon and he was well lets say less than happy we did not want to buy the product and a few choice sentences. All in all not a good experience with Neon. They may have changed since then I do not know as They were scratched off of the list of vendors to do business with. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Ans so we come around circle - goodnight, good-riddance Neon. At least, I would hope all would agree that they would rather see Neon go down then IBM. Please, the choice is obvious. On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Ed Gould ps2...@yahoo.com wrote: Paul: Neon has been sort of a loose cannon in the business for quite some time. My memory is not fresh on this but here it goes. 15+ years ago we were looking at a package (details dim sorry). One of the options that we looked at was a NEON product. We called and arranged to have a demo tape shipped. I installed it (with issues). As I went through the install I made notes on issues. After I got it installed I tried it out on some items and it did have issues which I did call NEON on. I did not get answers. I called back on the install issues and got a who cares attitude which did not go down well with me. We let the users try it out and they ran into problems and I called support and got another run around and after some pushing they said something like well of course it didn't work that way and it is not suppose to. I looked at the manual while we were talking and I saw the example the user tried and it looked the same to me. I asked them what about the example on page xx isn't that the same? Then I got back an answer that surprised me something to the effect that the documentation wasn't right. After I got off the phone I wrote a 3 page memo to the boss outlining the issues I had with the product and the users issues (at least the ones I was told about). I shipped it off to my boss and cc'd the manager of the group the product that was testing it. I guess my boss talked to NEON and then to the (other) manager and sent out an email that I was to de-install it and ship the product back. A few days later we get a phone call from a sales type at Neon and he was well lets say less than happy we did not want to buy the product and a few choice sentences. All in all not a good experience with Neon. They may have changed since then I do not know as They were scratched off of the list of vendors to do business with. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Guy Gardoit z/OS Systems Programming -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Oops, than not then - big difference there also! On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Guy Gardoit ggard...@gmail.com wrote: Ans so we come around circle - goodnight, good-riddance Neon. At least, I would hope all would agree that they would rather see Neon go down then IBM. Please, the choice is obvious. On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Ed Gould ps2...@yahoo.com wrote: Paul: Neon has been sort of a loose cannon in the business for quite some time. My memory is not fresh on this but here it goes. 15+ years ago we were looking at a package (details dim sorry). One of the options that we looked at was a NEON product. We called and arranged to have a demo tape shipped. I installed it (with issues). As I went through the install I made notes on issues. After I got it installed I tried it out on some items and it did have issues which I did call NEON on. I did not get answers. I called back on the install issues and got a who cares attitude which did not go down well with me. We let the users try it out and they ran into problems and I called support and got another run around and after some pushing they said something like well of course it didn't work that way and it is not suppose to. I looked at the manual while we were talking and I saw the example the user tried and it looked the same to me. I asked them what about the example on page xx isn't that the same? Then I got back an answer that surprised me something to the effect that the documentation wasn't right. After I got off the phone I wrote a 3 page memo to the boss outlining the issues I had with the product and the users issues (at least the ones I was told about). I shipped it off to my boss and cc'd the manager of the group the product that was testing it. I guess my boss talked to NEON and then to the (other) manager and sent out an email that I was to de-install it and ship the product back. A few days later we get a phone call from a sales type at Neon and he was well lets say less than happy we did not want to buy the product and a few choice sentences. All in all not a good experience with Neon. They may have changed since then I do not know as They were scratched off of the list of vendors to do business with. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Guy Gardoit z/OS Systems Programming -- Guy Gardoit z/OS Systems Programming -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Mark Zelden pisze: [...] I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Another scenario: Neon wins, IBM tries to break zPrime and is sued for trust practices. Then LOSES anti-trust trial and is obliged to keep zPrime working. Effect: everyone can lower his HW and SW bills. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:04 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator Mark Zelden pisze: [...] I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Another scenario: Neon wins, IBM tries to break zPrime and is sued for trust practices. Then LOSES anti-trust trial and is obliged to keep zPrime working. Effect: everyone can lower his HW and SW bills. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland More likely effect: IBM discontinues the speciality engines entirely. And OEM vendors start basing their software prices on both CP and speciality engines in the box instead of just on the CPs. IMO, the entire point of the zAAP at least was to not impact software costs for traditional workloads while making new workloads (WAS) affordable. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:19 AM, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.com wrote: More likely effect: IBM discontinues the speciality engines entirely. And OEM vendors start basing their software prices on both CP and speciality engines in the box instead of just on the CPs. IMO, the entire point of the zAAP at least was to not impact software costs for traditional workloads while making new workloads (WAS) affordable. Exactly. Folks are being short-sighted about this, thinking that IBM will let it stand. IBM will do anything to preserve this revenue stream (as well they should, in terms of shareholder value and like that). NEON tugged on Superman's cape; they should have expected to get swatted. You don't have to like this, it's just reality. Now, the courts COULD decide otherwise -- that's why it's, like, in court. We can debate it here endlessly, but that won't change the ruling. ...phsiii -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:03:33 +0100, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl wrote: Mark Zelden pisze: [...] I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Another scenario: Neon wins, IBM tries to break zPrime and is sued for trust practices. Then LOSES anti-trust trial and is obliged to keep zPrime working. Effect: everyone can lower his HW and SW bills. zPrime working doesn't do anyone any good if specialty engines don't get a price break (IBM can't be forced to sell them cheaper). That is the whole point of them. So the effect is more likely to be no more specialty engines (why have them at the same price). That hurts everyone who uses them today** that doesn't run zPrime. ** Everyone that uses them enough to get a price advantage. It doesn't help to purchase a specialty engine at 1/4 the price of a general engine and only run it at 10% utilization. But ZAAPZIIP in z/OS 1.11 (and the support added to z/OS 1.9 1.10 via OA27495) help. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Everyone keeps talking about the impact on the IBM software bill. I would be very worried about the impact of my non-IBM software bill. Even if IBM allowed the use of speciality engines (which I would not expect them to do), other software suppliers may not. I think the zPrime product could be bad news for everyone, even the users of the product. Terry Draper zSeries Performance Consultant w...@btopenworld.com mobile: +966 556730876 --- On Wed, 3/2/10, Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com wrote: From: Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: Wednesday, 3 February, 2010, 14:04 On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:03:33 +0100, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl wrote: Mark Zelden pisze: [...] I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Another scenario: Neon wins, IBM tries to break zPrime and is sued for trust practices. Then LOSES anti-trust trial and is obliged to keep zPrime working. Effect: everyone can lower his HW and SW bills. zPrime working doesn't do anyone any good if specialty engines don't get a price break (IBM can't be forced to sell them cheaper). That is the whole point of them. So the effect is more likely to be no more specialty engines (why have them at the same price). That hurts everyone who uses them today** that doesn't run zPrime. ** Everyone that uses them enough to get a price advantage. It doesn't help to purchase a specialty engine at 1/4 the price of a general engine and only run it at 10% utilization. But ZAAPZIIP in z/OS 1.11 (and the support added to z/OS 1.9 1.10 via OA27495) help. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
I saw a roadshow this past summer and immediately came away with the implications to licensing. A small group of us also talked about what you do below, IBM changing the licensing or breaking the software. To me anyway, it's a crafty/risky move and left me feeling, no disrespect to Neon intended, that it was like a pseudo-hack to z/OS. I smirked when I started to understand since I had not heard of the software before. Who wouldn't want to take advantage of the potential savings of running GP workloads on SP CP's? It's not surprising IBM is coming after them I'm just wondering what took so long. --- On Tue, 2/2/10, Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com wrote: From: Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 11:59 PM On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:22:39 -0600, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote: On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:18:41 -0800, Guy Gardoit wrote: Good for IBM - goodbye Neon, sleep tight. I'm not sure why the jubilation. Sure, Neon is in business to make money. They're trying to do so by offering IBM's customers a way to save money. Whether it's legal or not is for the courts to decide; they haven't rendered that decision yet. Until then, in the interest of their pocketbooks, pragmatic customers should be rooting for Neon. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Ed Gould wrote: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/01/29/ibm_countersues_neon/ -- gil I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
While I agree with what you are saying and being a very early WAS customer there were also sometimes severe implications to performance *trying* to get WAS to play nice with the traditional workloads. Something had to be done to allow the 2, trad. workloads WebFear, to cohabitate... --- On Wed, 2/3/10, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.com wrote: From: McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.com Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 1:19 PM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:04 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator Mark Zelden pisze: [...] I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Another scenario: Neon wins, IBM tries to break zPrime and is sued for trust practices. Then LOSES anti-trust trial and is obliged to keep zPrime working. Effect: everyone can lower his HW and SW bills. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland More likely effect: IBM discontinues the speciality engines entirely. And OEM vendors start basing their software prices on both CP and speciality engines in the box instead of just on the CPs. IMO, the entire point of the zAAP at least was to not impact software costs for traditional workloads while making new workloads (WAS) affordable. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:04:43 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:03:33 +0100, R.S. wrote: Mark Zelden pisze: [...] I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Another scenario: Neon wins, IBM tries to break zPrime and is sued for trust practices. Then LOSES anti-trust trial and is obliged to keep zPrime working. Effect: everyone can lower his HW and SW bills. zPrime working doesn't do anyone any good if specialty engines don't get a price break (IBM can't be forced to sell them cheaper). That is the whole point of them. So the effect is more likely to be no more specialty engines (why have them at the same price). That hurts everyone who uses them today** that doesn't run zPrime. ** Everyone that uses them enough to get a price advantage. It doesn't help to purchase a specialty engine at 1/4 the price of a general engine and only run it at 10% utilization. But ZAAPZIIP in z/OS 1.11 (and the support added to z/OS 1.9 1.10 via OA27495) help. The advantage of using zAAP and zIIP engines is not the purchase price. It is that these engines are not counted when determining software charges. zIIP and zAAP engines were introduced by IBM as a way to give users a significant break on the software charges. In the case of zAAP engines, the break is for work that could easily run on other platforms. IBM has painted itself into a corner with its software pricing algorithms, charging ever increasing amounts for the same software on larger processors. Software charges are the biggest reason that users migrate work off of the mainframe. They are also a big reason why new workloads are put on other platforms if possible. IMO, the best possible outcome of this would be if it caused IBM to revamp its software pricing policies, drastically reducing prices and ensuring that they would not continue to increase as processors become faster. It would be quite painful to IBM and other software vendors at first. The net result, I believe, would be a halt to the loss of mainframe customers and new customers coming to the platform. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:59:19 -0800, Patrick Falcone patrick.falco...@verizon.net wrote: While I agree with what you are saying and being a very early WAS customer there were also sometimes severe implications to performance *trying* to get WAS to play nice with the traditional workloads. Something had to be done to allow the 2, trad. workloads WebFear, to cohabitate... That has nothing to do with specialty engines. As a matter of fact it makes the problem worse due to all the engine switching that has to take place. Not to mention that the specialty engines could be in a different book. So in that respect, the entire concept of specialty engines is bad and was done for marketing / pricing. It never had anything to do with helping performance and mixing traditional and new workloads on the same LPAR. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:23 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:04:43 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: snip IMO, the best possible outcome of this would be if it caused IBM to revamp its software pricing policies, drastically reducing prices and ensuring that they would not continue to increase as processors become faster. It would be quite painful to IBM and other software vendors at first. The net result, I believe, would be a halt to the loss of mainframe customers and new customers coming to the platform. I agree. But this violates a management mantra: Milk the cash stream for immediate profit!! Remember the story of the goose who laid the golden egg. Management is that farmer. I firmly believe that Linux on z, i, Intel, ... is the future. If you want support, you pay for it. If you want changes to FOSS software, you can pay for it or hope somebody decides to do it for you for free. If you want custom programming, you pay for it. If you want no cost software, then there are the community support forums. Take your pick. If I were an SMB, then Linux would be my stated preferred OS. And FOSS software, perhaps with a support contract, would be my preferred environment. z/OS? Forget it. OK for large customers, too expensive for SMBs. Windows? Too expensive, too buggy, too insecure, too much DRM and vendor lock-in. iSeries is impressive, but you're locked into IBM too much. pSeries? Well, good hardware, but I'd likely run Linux on it and not AIX. -- Tom Marchant -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:23:15 -0600, Tom Marchant m42tom-ibmm...@yahoo.com wrote: On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:04:43 -0600, Mark Zelden wrote: ** Everyone that uses them enough to get a price advantage. It doesn't help to purchase a specialty engine at 1/4 the price of a general engine and only run it at 10% utilization. But ZAAPZIIP in z/OS 1.11 (and the support added to z/OS 1.9 1.10 via OA27495) help. The advantage of using zAAP and zIIP engines is not the purchase price. It is that these engines are not counted when determining software charges. Correct. I shouldn't have left that part out. But what I wrote is still true. If you purchase a zAAP or zIIP and only use it 10%, you haven't hurt your software bill, but you've spent money on a engine you aren't taking advantage of (albeit less than a GP). I don't know what the break even point is, but I'm sure it's highly variable depending on the mix of software at your shop. I think I have heard an ROT of at least 25% utilization. I don't pay as close attention to this sort of thing since I don't manage the budget. :-) Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
FOSS software? That goes with PUT tape, PIN number, and ATM machine. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of zMan Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:44 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator FOSS software? That goes with PUT tape, PIN number, and ATM machine. Yes, it is silly. But my intent was to convey information with less chance of misunderstanding. FOSS Software simply is more understandable than just saying FOSS, even if it is repetitious and redundant grin. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
A carpenter goes the hardware store to buy some hammers. They are offer him some all-round general purpose blue hammers for $40 each. He can use them to build anything we wants. Also with the purchase of each blue hammer, he can get a special purpose red hammer for $10 each. However, he is only allowed to build coffee shacks with the red hammers. Later, a traveling craftsman shows up at the carpenter's house and tells him that (for a fee) he modify the red hammers (paint them blue), so that they could used to build almost anything. How does the carpenter feel about the hardware store? About the blue hammers? About the red hammers? About the craftsman? Who's right? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Really? Is engine switching overhead with SP's and GP's CP's more of a concern versus running WAS with GP CP's and other traditional workloads from a performance perspective? Hmm. I've been there, no SP's, and it can be very ugly. I'm not sure I follow you...So are you saying zAAP's really don't help the overall performance of a mix of WAS and traditional workloads when running this type of mix on the same LPAR? Sorry, maybe I'm misreading the below... --- On Wed, 2/3/10, Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com wrote: From: Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 3:34 PM On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:59:19 -0800, Patrick Falcone patrick.falco...@verizon.net wrote: While I agree with what you are saying and being a very early WAS customer there were also sometimes severe implications to performance *trying* to get WAS to play nice with the traditional workloads. Something had to be done to allow the 2, trad. workloads WebFear, to cohabitate... That has nothing to do with specialty engines. As a matter of fact it makes the problem worse due to all the engine switching that has to take place. Not to mention that the specialty engines could be in a different book. So in that respect, the entire concept of specialty engines is bad and was done for marketing / pricing. It never had anything to do with helping performance and mixing traditional and new workloads on the same LPAR. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On 3 Feb 2010 06:51:55 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: I saw a roadshow this past summer and immediately came away with the implications to licensing. A small group of us also talked about what you do below, IBM changing the licensing or breaking the software. To me anyway, it's a crafty/risky move and left me feeling, no disrespect to Neon intended, that it was like a pseudo-hack to z/OS. I smirked when I started to understand since I had not heard of the software before. Who wouldn't want to take advantage of the potential savings of running GP workloads on SP CP's? It's not surprising IBM is coming after them I'm just wondering what took so long. The real problem is that the environment for running traditional workloads is seen as overpriced and many organizations have migrated to other platforms due to this. Incidentally has anyone else seen the ad by Microsoft claiming 70 percent power savings and improved performance by moving to Microsoft servers. We see COBOL NOT being updated to new world (NO 64 bit, NO support for the newer data types used by JAVA including the IBM defined decimal floating point) yet a charge for item. Meeting tactical needs such as XML is not the same as having a long term strategy for co-existence and TRUE participation in the web world. I see the specialty engines as an effort to preserve a cash cow and subsidizing the new at the expense of the old. --- On Tue, 2/2/10, Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com wrote: From: Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 11:59 PM On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:22:39 -0600, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote: On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:18:41 -0800, Guy Gardoit wrote: Good for IBM - goodbye Neon, sleep tight. I'm not sure why the jubilation. Sure, Neon is in business to make money. They're trying to do so by offering IBM's customers a way to save money. Whether it's legal or not is for the courts to decide; they haven't rendered that decision yet. Until then, in the interest of their pocketbooks, pragmatic customers should be rooting for Neon. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Ed Gould wrote: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/01/29/ibm_countersues_neon/ -- gil I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Mark -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Patrick Falcone Really? Is engine switching overhead with SP's and GP's CP's more of a concern versus running WAS with GP CP's and other traditional workloads from a performance perspective? Hmm. I've been there, no SP's, and it can be very ugly. I'm not sure I follow you...So are you saying zAAP's really don't help the overall performance of a mix of WAS and traditional workloads when running this type of mix on the same LPAR? I can see a potential for performance improvement if your GPs are knee-capped, because the SPs always run pedal to the metal. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 11:31:02 -0500, Don Williams wrote: A carpenter goes the hardware store to buy some hammers. They are offer him some all-round general purpose blue hammers for $40 each. He can use them to build anything we wants. Also with the purchase of each blue hammer, he can get a special purpose red hammer for $10 each. However, he is only allowed to build coffee shacks with the red hammers. Later, a traveling craftsman shows up at the carpenter's house and tells him that (for a fee) he modify the red hammers (paint them blue), so that they could used to build almost anything. How does the carpenter feel about the hardware store? About the blue hammers? About the red hammers? About the craftsman? Who's right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Commerce_Commission (Late 19th century) In the Supreme Court's view, the U. S. Congress through legislation could outlaw an act of (economic) discrimination against an individual or corporation if the act of discrimination constituted for the affected person(s) a failure by the discriminator to afford the affected person(s) the equal application (protection) of the rules or laws. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Don, Hang on. The Blue Hammers are only $40 if you hammer 1000 nails a day. If you start hammering 2000 nails a day the guy from the hardware store knocks on your door and asks for another $40. He doesn't care how many nails you hammer a day with the red hammer. I recall this analogy being explained with spanners and cars. You buy a spanner for you Toyota, and everyone time you buy a better, faster car you have to pay the hardware store a few dollars more to use the spanner on it. But it's still the same freaking spanner! Ron -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Don Williams Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:31 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator A carpenter goes the hardware store to buy some hammers. They are offer him some all-round general purpose blue hammers for $40 each. He can use them to build anything we wants. Also with the purchase of each blue hammer, he can get a special purpose red hammer for $10 each. However, he is only allowed to build coffee shacks with the red hammers. Later, a traveling craftsman shows up at the carpenter's house and tells him that (for a fee) he modify the red hammers (paint them blue), so that they could used to build almost anything. How does the carpenter feel about the hardware store? About the blue hammers? About the red hammers? About the craftsman? Who's right? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:34:21 -0800, Patrick Falcone patrick.falco...@verizon.net wrote: Really? Is engine switching overhead with SP's and GP's CP's more of a concern versus running WAS with GP CP's and other traditional workloads from a performance perspective? Hmm. I've been there, no SP's, and it can be very ugly. I'm not sure I follow you...So are you saying zAAP's really don't help the overall performance of a mix of WAS and traditional workloads when running this type of mix on the same LPAR? No - not compared to the same number of total GP engines. There is switching overhead to move the zAAP eligible workload. In the early zAAP days, there was quite a bit of tweaking to the JVM to determine when it made sense to switch or not. There were also some estimation tools to help you determine what part of your application could run on a zAAP (prior to the RMF changes that gave you the numbers) and the switch rate (I don't know if there are any switch rate numbers in SMF records, but I don't think there is). I was looking for some SHARE sessions that could explain all of this, but the ones I have looked at don't have the slides attached (dispatcher changes to support zAAP, everything zAAP were a few I looked at). I stopped looking after that. Maybe someone else can point you to documentation or white papers or wants to provide more details. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:30:08 -0800, Ron Hawkins ron.hawkins1...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Don, Hang on. The Blue Hammers are only $40 if you hammer 1000 nails a day. If you start hammering 2000 nails a day the guy from the hardware store knocks on your door and asks for another $40. He doesn't care how many nails you hammer a day with the red hammer. I recall this analogy being explained with spanners and cars. You buy a spanner for you Toyota, and everyone time you buy a better, faster car you have to pay the hardware store a few dollars more to use the spanner on it. But it's still the same freaking spanner! I think this analogy explains IBM's position (I assume it is quotes from the law suit): http://go.techtarget.com/r/10797978/662517 IBM has now shot back, however, saying that the issue is really about Neons attempted hijacking of IBMs intellectual property. IBM compared what Neon is doing to a crafty technician who promises, for a fee, to rig your cable box so you can watch premium TV channels without paying the cable company. Even if it could be accomplished technically, it is neither lawful nor ethical. -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Does the hardware store have a right to control the use of any hammers it sold? Does the carpenter have a right to ignore the hardware store's conditions of the sale? Does the craftsman have a right to modify the hammers? Or should carpenter switch to screws and a drill? When copyright law, patent law, trade secret law, constitutional law, state's rights (and duties), etc. is invoked by lawyers, judges, state and federal government, etc. on top of greed and other human traits, you get a murky mess. If only we could keep is a simple as those analogies. I believe, that in the end, it will take many court decisions to sort it out and I would not bet on anyone's prediction. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Hawkins Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 12:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator Don, Hang on. The Blue Hammers are only $40 if you hammer 1000 nails a day. If you start hammering 2000 nails a day the guy from the hardware store knocks on your door and asks for another $40. He doesn't care how many nails you hammer a day with the red hammer. I recall this analogy being explained with spanners and cars. You buy a spanner for you Toyota, and everyone time you buy a better, faster car you have to pay the hardware store a few dollars more to use the spanner on it. But it's still the same freaking spanner! Ron -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Don Williams Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:31 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator A carpenter goes the hardware store to buy some hammers. They are offer him some all-round general purpose blue hammers for $40 each. He can use them to build anything we wants. Also with the purchase of each blue hammer, he can get a special purpose red hammer for $10 each. However, he is only allowed to build coffee shacks with the red hammers. Later, a traveling craftsman shows up at the carpenter's house and tells him that (for a fee) he modify the red hammers (paint them blue), so that they could used to build almost anything. How does the carpenter feel about the hardware store? About the blue hammers? About the red hammers? About the craftsman? Who's right? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
I'm not a lawyer, so I never learned how to properly apply the 14th amendment. Regardless, it is not clear cut to me, who is right. I'm sure that eventually it will be declared who is legally right, however, I doubt that everyone will agree with the correctness of that decision. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 12:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 11:31:02 -0500, Don Williams wrote: A carpenter goes the hardware store to buy some hammers. They are offer him some all-round general purpose blue hammers for $40 each. He can use them to build anything we wants. Also with the purchase of each blue hammer, he can get a special purpose red hammer for $10 each. However, he is only allowed to build coffee shacks with the red hammers. Later, a traveling craftsman shows up at the carpenter's house and tells him that (for a fee) he modify the red hammers (paint them blue), so that they could used to build almost anything. How does the carpenter feel about the hardware store? About the blue hammers? About the red hammers? About the craftsman? Who's right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Commerce_Commission (Late 19th century) In the Supreme Court's view, the U. S. Congress through legislation could outlaw an act of (economic) discrimination against an individual or corporation if the act of discrimination constituted for the affected person(s) a failure by the discriminator to afford the affected person(s) the equal application (protection) of the rules or laws. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 11:31:02 -0500 Don Williams donb...@gmail.com wrote: :A carpenter goes the hardware store to buy some hammers. They are offer him :some all-round general purpose blue hammers for $40 each. He can use them to :build anything we wants. Also with the purchase of each blue hammer, he can :get a special purpose red hammer for $10 each. However, he is only allowed :to build coffee shacks with the red hammers. Later, a traveling craftsman :shows up at the carpenter's house and tells him that (for a fee) he modify :the red hammers (paint them blue), so that they could used to build almost :anything. Neon claims that they are making multi-use coffee shacks. :How does the carpenter feel about the hardware store? About the blue :hammers? About the red hammers? About the craftsman? :Who's right? That is the question. -- Binyamin Dissen bdis...@dissensoftware.com http://www.dissensoftware.com Director, Dissen Software, Bar Grill - Israel Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me, you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain. I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems, especially those from irresponsible companies. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
R.S. wrote: Mark Zelden pisze: [...] I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Another scenario: Neon wins, IBM tries to break zPrime and is sued for trust practices. Then LOSES anti-trust trial and is obliged to keep zPrime working. Effect: everyone can lower his HW and SW bills. Don't hold your breath on that one. As IBM proved during its long antitrust litigation a few years ago, a very effective strategy is this: each time you are confronted with a particularly able attorney, HIRE HIM! Money talks, BS walks. Rick -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
That's fine, I don't agree. Thanks for checking for the documentation. I would have killed for a zAAP when we tried to go WAS V5 years ago. I would not have taken a GP either since the startup of the cell group dimmed the lights and having a GP, that was knee-capped, would have been a disadvantage over having a fully blown zAAP engine to support this workload. We had the estimation tool when it was a zap and the numbers came out in the log and showed the amount of java eligible work but I do not remember seeing switch rate information. --- On Wed, 2/3/10, Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com wrote: From: Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 5:40 PM On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:34:21 -0800, Patrick Falcone patrick.falco...@verizon.net wrote: Really? Is engine switching overhead with SP's and GP's CP's more of a concern versus running WAS with GP CP's and other traditional workloads from a performance perspective? Hmm. I've been there, no SP's, and it can be very ugly. I'm not sure I follow you...So are you saying zAAP's really don't help the overall performance of a mix of WAS and traditional workloads when running this type of mix on the same LPAR? No - not compared to the same number of total GP engines. There is switching overhead to move the zAAP eligible workload. In the early zAAP days, there was quite a bit of tweaking to the JVM to determine when it made sense to switch or not. There were also some estimation tools to help you determine what part of your application could run on a zAAP (prior to the RMF changes that gave you the numbers) and the switch rate (I don't know if there are any switch rate numbers in SMF records, but I don't think there is). I was looking for some SHARE sessions that could explain all of this, but the ones I have looked at don't have the slides attached (dispatcher changes to support zAAP, everything zAAP were a few I looked at). I stopped looking after that. Maybe someone else can point you to documentation or white papers or wants to provide more details. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:30:21 -0800, Patrick Falcone patrick.falco...@verizon.net wrote: That's fine, I don't agree. Thanks for checking for the documentation. You don't agree with what? That having 10 GPs has less overhead than 5 GPs and 5 zAAPs and can service the same workload just as well or better (since there will be less overhead)? I would have killed for a zAAP when we tried to go WAS V5 years ago. I would not have taken a GP either since the startup of the cell group dimmed the lights and having a GP, that was knee-capped, would have been a disadvantage over having a fully blown zAAP engine to support this workload. I didn't mention the caveat of a knee-capped engine, but that isn't an apples to apples comparison.Of course you are better off with a full speed specialty engine compared to a knee-capped GP if you can utilize the specialty engine. We had the estimation tool when it was a zap and the numbers came out in the log and showed the amount of java eligible work but I do not remember seeing switch rate information. I still had this old link to the tool: http://www6.software.ibm.com/dl/zosjava2/zosjava2-p Which redirected me here: https://www14.software.ibm.com/webapp/iwm/web/preLogin.do?source=zosjava2 And also this techdoc that replaced WP100431: http://www-03.ibm.com/support/techdocs/atsmastr.nsf/WebIndex/PRS2840 I thought it was the excel workbook in that techdoc that showed the switch rate. But I could be remembering slides I saw at a SHARE presentation. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Come on Mark, you made a blanket statement about zAAP's and performance and I disagreed. Now you're coming back with specifics which I'm not going to/can't argue. I'm just stating I've been in situations where I personally believe that a zAAP would have been benificial over a GP CP from a performance perspective. So can we call this a *it depends on the environment* at this point. Thanks for the links. --- On Wed, 2/3/10, Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com wrote: From: Mark Zelden mark.zel...@zurichna.com Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 9:04 PM On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:30:21 -0800, Patrick Falcone patrick.falco...@verizon.net wrote: That's fine, I don't agree. Thanks for checking for the documentation. You don't agree with what? That having 10 GPs has less overhead than 5 GPs and 5 zAAPs and can service the same workload just as well or better (since there will be less overhead)? I would have killed for a zAAP when we tried to go WAS V5 years ago. I would not have taken a GP either since the startup of the cell group dimmed the lights and having a GP, that was knee-capped, would have been a disadvantage over having a fully blown zAAP engine to support this workload. I didn't mention the caveat of a knee-capped engine, but that isn't an apples to apples comparison. Of course you are better off with a full speed specialty engine compared to a knee-capped GP if you can utilize the specialty engine. We had the estimation tool when it was a zap and the numbers came out in the log and showed the amount of java eligible work but I do not remember seeing switch rate information. I still had this old link to the tool: http://www6.software.ibm.com/dl/zosjava2/zosjava2-p Which redirected me here: https://www14.software.ibm.com/webapp/iwm/web/preLogin.do?source=zosjava2 And also this techdoc that replaced WP100431: http://www-03.ibm.com/support/techdocs/atsmastr.nsf/WebIndex/PRS2840 I thought it was the excel workbook in that techdoc that showed the switch rate. But I could be remembering slides I saw at a SHARE presentation. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:46:24 -0800, Patrick Falcone patrick.falco...@verizon.net wrote: Come on Mark, you made a blanket statement about zAAP's and performance and I disagreed. Now you're coming back with specifics which I'm not going to/can't argue. I'm just stating I've been in situations where I personally believe that a zAAP would have been benificial over a GP CP from a performance perspective. So can we call this a *it depends on the environment* at this point. I'm not trying to start an argument, but performance is not about beliefs or gut feelings. It's about measurements and data / facts to back it up. The fact is, that there is overhead in engine switching to move work over to a specialty processor, so I'm not inclined to believe that from a performance perspective, overall, a system would run better with a split between zAAPs and GPs as opposed to all GPs. Now, I can see that WAS could run better since the zAAP(s) could be sitting there servicing the java work without competition - but the rest of the system could be CPU starved (also, remember the additional overhead if these engines are in another book). So I guess my point is, putting aside software costs, it is better from an overall system performance perspective to have all GPs. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
http://openmainframe.org/news/ibm-neon-fight-flares-ibm-countersues-neon -thumbs-its-nose-d.html Alan -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Guy Gardoit Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 5:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator Good for IBM - goodbye Neon, sleep tight. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Ed Gould ps2...@yahoo.com wrote: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/01/29/ibm_countersues_neon/ With mainframe revenues off sharply and likely to be so until the System z11 mainframes ship much later this year, IBM can ill afford to look the other way as Neon Software peddles its zPrime tool for offloading mainframe workloads to much cheaper specialty engines on Big Blue's mainframes. So it has called out the lawyers and countersued Neon Software, which sued Big Blue for anticompetitive practices back in December. etc etc -- Guy Gardoit z/OS Systems Programming -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:18:41 -0800, Guy Gardoit wrote: Good for IBM - goodbye Neon, sleep tight. I'm not sure why the jubilation. Sure, Neon is in business to make money. They're trying to do so by offering IBM's customers a way to save money. Whether it's legal or not is for the courts to decide; they haven't rendered that decision yet. Until then, in the interest of their pocketbooks, pragmatic customers should be rooting for Neon. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Ed Gould wrote: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/01/29/ibm_countersues_neon/ -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:22:39 -0600, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote: On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:18:41 -0800, Guy Gardoit wrote: Good for IBM - goodbye Neon, sleep tight. I'm not sure why the jubilation. Sure, Neon is in business to make money. They're trying to do so by offering IBM's customers a way to save money. Whether it's legal or not is for the courts to decide; they haven't rendered that decision yet. Until then, in the interest of their pocketbooks, pragmatic customers should be rooting for Neon. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Ed Gould wrote: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/01/29/ibm_countersues_neon/ -- gil I don't have a stake either way, but if I were rooting for Neon and they won this battle, IBM would still be free to change the licensing rules or not charge less for special engines, or they could just change the code and break zPrime for Neon. So the only benefit seems to be temporary for anyone using the software. Long term, it could hurt everyone else. Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:22:39 -0600, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote: On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:18:41 -0800, Guy Gardoit wrote: Good for IBM - goodbye Neon, sleep tight. I'm not sure why the jubilation. Sure, Neon is in business to make money. They're trying to do so by offering IBM's customers a way to save money. Whether it's legal or not is for the courts to decide; they haven't rendered that decision yet. Until then, in the interest of their pocketbooks, pragmatic customers should be rooting for Neon. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Ed Gould wrote: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/01/29/ibm_countersues_neon/ I am rooting for Neon, but from what I've read, their software invokes the specialty engines for tasks that are not valid for those engines. I think IBM was vague about qualifying workloads when they introduced them, but they have since clarified much. I believe the IBM agreements everyone is bound by states if you run an unqualified workload on those engines, they can charge you for the entire engine at GP prices. That's a pretty pricey gamble. The courts may change that or maybe IBM will buy them out and share some of their capabilities with us. Who knows -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: IBM countersues Neon over zPrime accelerator
Good for IBM - goodbye Neon, sleep tight. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Ed Gould ps2...@yahoo.com wrote: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/01/29/ibm_countersues_neon/ With mainframe revenues off sharply and likely to be so until the System z11 mainframes ship much later this year, IBM can ill afford to look the other way as Neon Software peddles its zPrime tool for offloading mainframe workloads to much cheaper specialty engines on Big Blue's mainframes. So it has called out the lawyers and countersued Neon Software, which sued Big Blue for anticompetitive practices back in December. etc etc -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Guy Gardoit z/OS Systems Programming -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
