Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[billogden]

I agree with Shumel and some others. It would be very nice if many panels
would somehow display the actual commands they will use or, if that is not
workable, perhaps a very short outline of the actions that will be taken.

Being rather elderly now (and with failing memory at times) this would be
especially nice for helping us old blockheads be nicer about zOSMF.

Bill Ogden

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Grant Taylor]

On 2/26/23 7:59 PM, Leonard D Woren wrote:
What those panels should do, but I don't know whether they do this or 
not, is display the line command as it's executed.


SMIT(TY) in AIX does something like this.  I really like it.

I think it's great for new operators to use the forms to answer 
questions and then toggle the option to see the command that will be run.


There's also good context sensitive help in SMIT(TY).

I wish that more things were like this.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Bob Bridges]

Right.  I don't at all object to the admins using the panels if they like
them, nor creating supplemental panels for homegrown tools.  But yeah, I'm
mostly for the native commands myself, or REXX shortcuts.  (I was the same
way in DOS, more interested in the typed commands than in the various menu
products.)

Some of the shortcuts save a lot of time and extra typing; for instance, a
REXX that submits a DB2 query that asks "what user IDs have access to this
resource?".  Others are just laziness; an RLIST command that I can feed a
single user ID on group and get its listing in View.  (The equivalent in Top
Secret is TLIST.  It's been a while since I had an ACF2 client; I forget
what I named that command, but it wasn't ALIST at the time.  Maybe it would
be now.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Don't believe everything you think. */

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 04:15

I am a strong GUI and panel advocate WHEN THEY SAVE TIME, and that includes
the RACF panels. In some contexts the RACF panels that IBM provides are
useful and save the time needed to write your own. For a lot of tasks they
are not appropriate, and that's fine. You have to carve the bird at the
joints.

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

I am a strong GUI and panel advocate WHEN THEY SAVE TIME, and that includes the 
RACF panels. In some contexts the RACF panels that IBM provides are useful and 
save the time needed to write your own. For a lot of tasks they are not 
appropriate, and that's fine. You have to carve the bird at the joints.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Leonard D Woren [ibm-main...@ldworen.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2023 9:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?

Eons ago, I tried out the RACF ISPF panels once.  Took me 10x as long
to navigate to the panel as just typing the actual line command.  What
those panels should do, but I don't know whether they do this or not,
is display the line command as it's executed.

To this day I don't understand why experienced systems programmers and
experienced security officers use the RACF ISPF panels.

That said, I will be writing ISPF panels to let coworkers use my
personal productivity tools.


/Leonard

David Spiegel wrote on 2/21/2023 9:47 AM:
> Hi Doug,
> I consider relying on ISPF Panels *solely* negative, especially when
> SysProgs should learn the Command Line, in particular for RACF
> Commands. This is a sign of laziness.
> I've also been in jobs where I maintained/added to ISPF Applications
> to e.g. create a z/OS Clone, where the user fills in the "from" and
> "to" DASD addresses and the ISPF application does the rest.
> BTW, I am referring negatively to people who rely upon ISPF Panels
> *and* have never heard of CBT.
> There is no need  to get offended.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-02-21 12:13, Doug wrote:
>> So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to
>> write dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do.
>> Never thought it was bad if  "people in charge are by-the-book
>> mentality and I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything
>> from RACF to SMP/e." Especially when I was the person in charge.
>> And I knew what the CBT tape was and is
>>
>> Doug Fuerst
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>> Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15
>> Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to
>> speed on a new environment?
>>
>>> Hi Brian,
>>> You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need
>>> in order to perform my job efficiently?  ..."
>>> My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality
>>> and I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF
>>> to SMP/e.
>>> (At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never
>>> heard of it" (This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more
>>> than 30 years.))
>>> These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're
>>> scared due to ignorance.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> David
>>>
>>> On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:
 I think that's a pretty invalid point. I don't see anyone
 questioning how to write an exit or install a new system, or use
 SMPe, so why would they question my use of anything I need in
 order to perform my job efficiently?

 Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.
 If they didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to
 do the project.

 Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Leonard D Woren]

Eons ago, I tried out the RACF ISPF panels once.  Took me 10x as long 
to navigate to the panel as just typing the actual line command.  What 
those panels should do, but I don't know whether they do this or not, 
is display the line command as it's executed.


To this day I don't understand why experienced systems programmers and 
experienced security officers use the RACF ISPF panels.


That said, I will be writing ISPF panels to let coworkers use my 
personal productivity tools.



/Leonard

David Spiegel wrote on 2/21/2023 9:47 AM:

Hi Doug,
I consider relying on ISPF Panels *solely* negative, especially when 
SysProgs should learn the Command Line, in particular for RACF 
Commands. This is a sign of laziness.
I've also been in jobs where I maintained/added to ISPF Applications 
to e.g. create a z/OS Clone, where the user fills in the "from" and 
"to" DASD addresses and the ISPF application does the rest.
BTW, I am referring negatively to people who rely upon ISPF Panels 
*and* have never heard of CBT.

There is no need  to get offended.

Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 12:13, Doug wrote:
So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to 
write dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do.
Never thought it was bad if  "people in charge are by-the-book 
mentality and I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything 
from RACF to SMP/e." Especially when I was the person in charge. 
And I knew what the CBT tape was and is


Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to 
speed on a new environment?



Hi Brian,
You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need 
in order to perform my job efficiently?  ..."
My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality 
and I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF 
to SMP/e.
(At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never 
heard of it" (This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more 
than 30 years.))
These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're 
scared due to ignorance.


Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:
I think that's a pretty invalid point. I don't see anyone 
questioning how to write an exit or install a new system, or use 
SMPe, so why would they question my use of anything I need in 
order to perform my job efficiently?


Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  
If they didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to 
do the project.


Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Wayne Bickerdike]

I had an interesting experience at a client (Defence). I was sitting in a
shared area with an IBM rep and a couple of Defence staff.

I put a USB stick into my desktop and a Defence public servant went off at
me. I had no idea that it was forbidden since at another client site, the
USB ports were disabled.

Defence have USB drives that carry password protection and are rarely
available. That won't stop malware being transferred if it can be copied
onto the drive. This again comes back to trust issues. The mainframe
already had PDS86 installed and some other CBT utilities.

The IBM rep later admitted that he used a personal USB drive all the time
and hadn't been briefed on the rules.

On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 6:47 AM Mark Zelden  wrote:

> I always ask permission before downloading CBT tools or anything else like
> that, or my own free tools.  In days of old, I backed it up to 3480 carts.
> Then TSO XMIT of my PDSes and keeping them on a USB drive.  I have seen
> USBs locked down, but that hasn't been a problem for me.
>
> If I was doing an ad-hoc consultant gig with a specific task or tasks and
> they wanted me to re-invent the wheel for simple JCL or have to constantly
> ask about things that I could easily figure out with SHOWMVS, IPLINFO or do
> things quicker with PDS86 etc. etc., it is their money and my hourly rate
> and I would do what they wanted.   So far, I've never had anyone ever tell
> me I couldn't use non-APF authorized freeware to help get my job done.
> That being consulting or as an employee.
>
> What I don't do is suggest to or put freeware as part of any production
> process, job etc.  That includes very useful tools, but I still won't do
> it.   Sysprog use only, fine.  Production use, no.
>
> Oh, and I always do leave my personal (mostly) JCL PDS when I leave a
> shop.  Nothing "secret" or copyrighted in there, just years and years of
> helpful samples, doc, etc. that is part of what my client gets by hiring
> me.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
> --
> Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS
> ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
> mailto:m...@mzelden.com
> Mark's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html
>
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-- 
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Mark Zelden]

I always ask permission before downloading CBT tools or anything else like 
that, or my own free tools.  In days of old, I backed it up to 3480 carts.  
Then TSO XMIT of my PDSes and keeping them on a USB drive.  I have seen USBs 
locked down, but that hasn't been a problem for me.

If I was doing an ad-hoc consultant gig with a specific task or tasks and they 
wanted me to re-invent the wheel for simple JCL or have to constantly ask about 
things that I could easily figure out with SHOWMVS, IPLINFO or do things 
quicker with PDS86 etc. etc., it is their money and my hourly rate and I would 
do what they wanted.   So far, I've never had anyone ever tell me I couldn't 
use non-APF authorized freeware to help get my job done.  That being consulting 
or as an employee.  

What I don't do is suggest to or put freeware as part of any production 
process, job etc.  That includes very useful tools, but I still won't do it.   
Sysprog use only, fine.  Production use, no.   

Oh, and I always do leave my personal (mostly) JCL PDS when I leave a shop.  
Nothing "secret" or copyrighted in there, just years and years of helpful 
samples, doc, etc. that is part of what my client gets by hiring me.   


Regards,

Mark
--
Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS
ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
mailto:m...@mzelden.com
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Brian,
"... Originally ..." maybe 30 or more years ago?
(Incidentally, I started with SMP4 (before 1983). I don't remember any 
ISPF Panels for that.)


I do RACF in Batch so that it (almost) self-documents and is repeatable. 
ISPF Panels are not (easily) repeatable.


Regards,
David

On 2023-02-22 19:58, Brian Westerman wrote:

I never really thought about it.  I use the ISPF panels (for racf and smp/e) a 
lot, and I know pretty much all of the commands to do it otherwise.  Actually, 
I think I built my SMPe jobs originally from the panels. :)

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Brian Westerman]

I never really thought about it.  I use the ISPF panels (for racf and smp/e) a 
lot, and I know pretty much all of the commands to do it otherwise.  Actually, 
I think I built my SMPe jobs originally from the panels. :)

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

> the assumption that soneone starting work
> at a new site could expect to bring their
> own tools with them, with impunity.

I can, because I ask for permission. Doing it when you know it's not allowed, 
OTOH, is, shall we say, ill considered.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll 
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 11:09 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023, at 23:27, Beverly Caldwell wrote:
> I would answer your questions if knew who you were and why you were asking!
> But yes it has never been a problem for me. Sometimes takes a little
> deviousness to make the transfer work.  These people think they are
> so smart but there is usually a way round their little schemes.

I do not see why you'd to know who I am - how does that affect the answer?

I've been reading and posting on IBM-mainframe mail lists/newsgroups for -
I think - about 25 years.  Before ill-health forced me to stop work I was an
MVS sysprog at a UK bank for a while, then led a small programming team
who (amongst other things) worked on SA/390 automation.  If you don't
believe it, search for me on LinkedIn.

I'm asking because I've been following the thread and was somewhat amazed
at the assumption that soneone starting work at a new site could expect to
bring their own tools with them, with impunity.

When you refer to "These people think they are so smart...", who do you mean?

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023, at 23:27, Beverly Caldwell wrote:
> I would answer your questions if knew who you were and why you were asking!
> But yes it has never been a problem for me. Sometimes takes a little
> deviousness to make the transfer work.  These people think they are
> so smart but there is usually a way round their little schemes.

I do not see why you'd to know who I am - how does that affect the answer?

I've been reading and posting on IBM-mainframe mail lists/newsgroups for -
I think - about 25 years.  Before ill-health forced me to stop work I was an 
MVS sysprog at a UK bank for a while, then led a small programming team 
who (amongst other things) worked on SA/390 automation.  If you don't 
believe it, search for me on LinkedIn.

I'm asking because I've been following the thread and was somewhat amazed
at the assumption that soneone starting work at a new site could expect to
bring their own tools with them, with impunity.

When you refer to "These people think they are so smart...", who do you mean?

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Laurence Chiu]

This particular organisation (a bank) doesn't allow anybody to attach USB
sticks or download stuff.  If you want to download from a non-recognised
source you seek approval from the security team who assess the risk and
then usually only open up the site for an hour or so for you to download
the content. I have yet to sight a process to allow access to USB sticks.

On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 8:04 PM Tom Brennan 
wrote:

> I think it's a matter of trust.  Right off, a company needs to trust
> that I'm honest, otherwise they shouldn't allow me anywhere near their
> datacenter or network.  But how can they trust that I'm reasonably
> competent in the areas I claim to be, and that I won't make mistakes
> that cause big problems?  That takes time or guesses or references or
> maybe just their gut instinct.  I don't know.
>
> On 2/19/2023 9:52 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
> > The USB is just for emergencies, I can download from my phone just as
> well, and from my NAS at home if necessary.  It seems odd to me to lock
> down a systems programmer from getting information that may save the site,
> but maybe it's just me.  I can honestly say that no one has ever told me I
> could not load my stuff, but honestly I can't remember ever asking anyone
> if they had a problem with me doing so.
> >
> > Most things I could probably just retype, especially when I have the
> data already displayable.  It seems very short sighted to "lock down" use
> of a tool that could very well fix a major problem, but again, maybe it's
> just that I have never asked anyone if they minded me fixing their site. :)
> >
> > Brian
> >
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

Some submit jobs, and I've often scavenged the generated JCL to use as a basis 
for other jobs. But I'm always prepared to enter the JCL and input myself when 
appropriate. A good servant but a poor master.

Same for CLI versus GUI; I find a GUI convenient for a lot of tasks but write 
scripts for the heavy lifting.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom 
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 2:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?

I forgot what system it was (maybe a panel system on AIX?) where you can
run through the panel selections checking various options, but with the
ability to show the final command issued.  I'm pretty sure things like
RACF, RMM, and some other ISPF dialogs just issue TSO commands under the
covers, but is there an option to see those commands?

On 2/21/2023 9:47 AM, David Spiegel wrote:
> Hi Doug,
> I consider relying on ISPF Panels *solely* negative, especially when
> SysProgs should learn the Command Line, in particular for RACF Commands.
> This is a sign of laziness.
> I've also been in jobs where I maintained/added to ISPF Applications to
> e.g. create a z/OS Clone, where the user fills in the "from" and "to"
> DASD addresses and the ISPF application does the rest.
> BTW, I am referring negatively to people who rely upon ISPF Panels *and*
> have never heard of CBT.
> There is no need  to get offended.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-02-21 12:13, Doug wrote:
>> So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to
>> write dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do.
>> Never thought it was bad if  "people in charge are by-the-book
>> mentality and I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from
>> RACF to SMP/e." Especially when I was the person in charge. And I knew
>> what the CBT tape was and is
>>
>> Doug Fuerst
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>> Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15
>> Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to
>> speed on a new environment?
>>
>>> Hi Brian,
>>> You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need in
>>> order to perform my job efficiently?  ..."
>>> My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality and
>>> I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e.
>>> (At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never heard
>>> of it" (This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more than 30
>>> years.))
>>> These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're
>>> scared due to ignorance.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> David
>>>
>>> On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:
 I think that's a pretty invalid point. I don't see anyone
 questioning how to write an exit or install a new system, or use
 SMPe, so why would they question my use of anything I need in order
 to perform my job efficiently?

 Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  If
 they didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the
 project.

 Brian

 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>>
>>> --
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Tom Brennan]

I forgot what system it was (maybe a panel system on AIX?) where you can 
run through the panel selections checking various options, but with the 
ability to show the final command issued.  I'm pretty sure things like 
RACF, RMM, and some other ISPF dialogs just issue TSO commands under the 
covers, but is there an option to see those commands?


On 2/21/2023 9:47 AM, David Spiegel wrote:

Hi Doug,
I consider relying on ISPF Panels *solely* negative, especially when 
SysProgs should learn the Command Line, in particular for RACF Commands. 
This is a sign of laziness.
I've also been in jobs where I maintained/added to ISPF Applications to 
e.g. create a z/OS Clone, where the user fills in the "from" and "to" 
DASD addresses and the ISPF application does the rest.
BTW, I am referring negatively to people who rely upon ISPF Panels *and* 
have never heard of CBT.

There is no need  to get offended.

Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 12:13, Doug wrote:
So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to 
write dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do.
Never thought it was bad if  "people in charge are by-the-book 
mentality and I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from 
RACF to SMP/e." Especially when I was the person in charge. And I knew 
what the CBT tape was and is


Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to 
speed on a new environment?



Hi Brian,
You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need in 
order to perform my job efficiently?  ..."
My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality and 
I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e.
(At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never heard 
of it" (This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more than 30 
years.))
These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're 
scared due to ignorance.


Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:
I think that's a pretty invalid point. I don't see anyone 
questioning how to write an exit or install a new system, or use 
SMPe, so why would they question my use of anything I need in order 
to perform my job efficiently?


Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  If 
they didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the 
project.


Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Robert Prins]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 at 18:26, Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:

> I have a whole collection of handy ISPF panel driven utilities and use the
> excellent Frank Clarke IMBED utilities. This makes them extremely portable,
> everything in one piece of REXX code, no need to go looking for panels,
> messages and skeletons in random places.


You might also try EPANQ 
with some samples in E123 
and  which uses an embedded
load library (that's for obvious reasons not deleted at the end…)

I did know about FC's IMBED, not sure if it can handle LOAD libraries, I've
used EPANQ with load libraries converted to XMIT format, which requires a
manual "ENTER". but a not-kept experiment with a AMATERSE'd load library
did not.

Robert

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

imhoYou seem to be disagreeing with something he never wrote. Nobody here has 
argued against heavy use of ISPF panels. Nobody here has claimed that they 
don't use them heavily. The key word in David's reply, which he emphasized, was 
"solely".

IMHO a systems programmer should know the tools  at his disposal and make an 
informed decision as to what is most productive in a given context.




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Doug 
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 1:03 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?

Sorry, but I agree to disagree. The panels can have the effect of making
staff FAR more efficient than learning command line TSO even for RACF.
I can use them both, but I started in RACF way before there were any
dialogs. Rather than "laziness" think efficiency.

I prefer 3.2 to typing "allocate ." to define a PDS.
Especially given today's upcoming new "sysprogs."

And I and my staff at one place designed and implemented a dialog to
clone the res. Still works today. WAY more efficient. But I can build a
res by hand if I have to.

Some of the most challenged sysprogs I ever dealt with were ones that
thought that the command line was the only thing used by "real"
sysprogs. They felt so superior, and made s many errors.

I like command line in Unix too, but I gotta admit, I love Filezilla for
FTP's.

Amazing. Never really one answer.

Doug

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 21-Feb-23 12:47:32
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed
on a new environment?

>Hi Doug,
>I consider relying on ISPF Panels *solely* negative, especially when SysProgs 
>should learn the Command Line, in particular for RACF Commands. This is a sign 
>of laziness.
>I've also been in jobs where I maintained/added to ISPF Applications to e.g. 
>create a z/OS Clone, where the user fills in the "from" and "to" DASD 
>addresses and the ISPF application does the rest.
>BTW, I am referring negatively to people who rely upon ISPF Panels *and* have 
>never heard of CBT.
>There is no need  to get offended.
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>On 2023-02-21 12:13, Doug wrote:
>>So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to write 
>>dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do.
>>Never thought it was bad if  "people in charge are by-the-book mentality and 
>>I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e." 
>>Especially when I was the person in charge. And I knew what the CBT tape was 
>>and is
>>
>>Doug Fuerst
>>
>>-- Original Message --
>>From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15
>>Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
>>new environment?
>>
>>>Hi Brian,
>>>You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need in order 
>>>to perform my job efficiently?  ..."
>>>My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality and I can 
>>>imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e.
>>>(At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never heard of it" 
>>>(This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more than 30 years.))
>>>These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're scared due 
>>>to ignorance.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>David
>>>
>>>On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:
I think that's a pretty invalid point. I don't see anyone questioning how 
to write an exit or install a new system, or use SMPe, so why would they 
question my use of anything I need in order to perform my job efficiently?

Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  If they 
didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the project.

Brian

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>>>
>>>--
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>>
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>
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Wayne Bickerdike]

I sit on the fence regarding command line vs ISPF panels.

Command line can be a life saver if you screw up your logon procedure. I've
seen many people use CONCAT type ISPF panels and add a load library to the
source library ISP and boom. At that point, it's handy to understand the
RENAME command or good old fashioned TSO EDIT.

I have a whole collection of handy ISPF panel driven utilities and use the
excellent Frank Clarke IMBED utilities. This makes them extremely portable,
everything in one piece of REXX code, no need to go looking for panels,
messages and skeletons in random places.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 5:04 AM Doug  wrote:

> Sorry, but I agree to disagree. The panels can have the effect of making
> staff FAR more efficient than learning command line TSO even for RACF.
> I can use them both, but I started in RACF way before there were any
> dialogs. Rather than "laziness" think efficiency.
>
> I prefer 3.2 to typing "allocate ." to define a PDS.
> Especially given today's upcoming new "sysprogs."
>
> And I and my staff at one place designed and implemented a dialog to
> clone the res. Still works today. WAY more efficient. But I can build a
> res by hand if I have to.
>
> Some of the most challenged sysprogs I ever dealt with were ones that
> thought that the command line was the only thing used by "real"
> sysprogs. They felt so superior, and made s many errors.
>
> I like command line in Unix too, but I gotta admit, I love Filezilla for
> FTP's.
>
> Amazing. Never really one answer.
>
> Doug
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 21-Feb-23 12:47:32
> Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed
> on a new environment?
>
> >Hi Doug,
> >I consider relying on ISPF Panels *solely* negative, especially when
> SysProgs should learn the Command Line, in particular for RACF Commands.
> This is a sign of laziness.
> >I've also been in jobs where I maintained/added to ISPF Applications to
> e.g. create a z/OS Clone, where the user fills in the "from" and "to" DASD
> addresses and the ISPF application does the rest.
> >BTW, I am referring negatively to people who rely upon ISPF Panels *and*
> have never heard of CBT.
> >There is no need  to get offended.
> >
> >Regards,
> >David
> >
> >On 2023-02-21 12:13, Doug wrote:
> >>So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to write
> dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do.
> >>Never thought it was bad if  "people in charge are by-the-book mentality
> and I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to
> SMP/e." Especially when I was the person in charge. And I knew what the CBT
> tape was and is
> >>
> >>Doug Fuerst
> >>
> >>-- Original Message --
> >>From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >>Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15
> >>Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed
> on a new environment?
> >>
> >>>Hi Brian,
> >>>You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need in
> order to perform my job efficiently?  ..."
> >>>My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality and I
> can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e.
> >>>(At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never heard of
> it" (This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more than 30 years.))
> >>>These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're
> scared due to ignorance.
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>David
> >>>
> >>>On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:
> I think that's a pretty invalid point. I don't see anyone questioning
> how to write an exit or install a new system, or use SMPe, so why would
> they question my use of anything I need in order to perform my job
> efficiently?
> 
> Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  If
> they didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the
> project.
> 
> Brian
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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> >>>
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Doug]

Sorry, but I agree to disagree. The panels can have the effect of making 
staff FAR more efficient than learning command line TSO even for RACF.
I can use them both, but I started in RACF way before there were any 
dialogs. Rather than "laziness" think efficiency.


I prefer 3.2 to typing "allocate ." to define a PDS.
Especially given today's upcoming new "sysprogs."

And I and my staff at one place designed and implemented a dialog to 
clone the res. Still works today. WAY more efficient. But I can build a 
res by hand if I have to.


Some of the most challenged sysprogs I ever dealt with were ones that 
thought that the command line was the only thing used by "real" 
sysprogs. They felt so superior, and made s many errors.


I like command line in Unix too, but I gotta admit, I love Filezilla for 
FTP's.


Amazing. Never really one answer.

Doug

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 21-Feb-23 12:47:32
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed 
on a new environment?



Hi Doug,
I consider relying on ISPF Panels *solely* negative, especially when SysProgs 
should learn the Command Line, in particular for RACF Commands. This is a sign 
of laziness.
I've also been in jobs where I maintained/added to ISPF Applications to e.g. create a z/OS Clone, 
where the user fills in the "from" and "to" DASD addresses and the ISPF 
application does the rest.
BTW, I am referring negatively to people who rely upon ISPF Panels *and* have 
never heard of CBT.
There is no need  to get offended.

Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 12:13, Doug wrote:

So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to write 
dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do.
Never thought it was bad if  "people in charge are by-the-book mentality and I can 
imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e." Especially when I 
was the person in charge. And I knew what the CBT tape was and is

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?


Hi Brian,
You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need in order to 
perform my job efficiently?  ..."
My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality and I can 
imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e.
(At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never heard of it" 
(This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more than 30 years.))
These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're scared due to 
ignorance.

Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:

I think that's a pretty invalid point. I don't see anyone questioning how to 
write an exit or install a new system, or use SMPe, so why would they question 
my use of anything I need in order to perform my job efficiently?

Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  If they 
didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the project.

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Doug,
I consider relying on ISPF Panels *solely* negative, especially when 
SysProgs should learn the Command Line, in particular for RACF Commands. 
This is a sign of laziness.
I've also been in jobs where I maintained/added to ISPF Applications to 
e.g. create a z/OS Clone, where the user fills in the "from" and "to" 
DASD addresses and the ISPF application does the rest.
BTW, I am referring negatively to people who rely upon ISPF Panels *and* 
have never heard of CBT.

There is no need  to get offended.

Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 12:13, Doug wrote:
So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to 
write dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do.
Never thought it was bad if  "people in charge are by-the-book 
mentality and I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from 
RACF to SMP/e." Especially when I was the person in charge. And I knew 
what the CBT tape was and is


Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to 
speed on a new environment?



Hi Brian,
You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need in 
order to perform my job efficiently?  ..."
My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality and 
I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e.
(At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never heard 
of it" (This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more than 30 
years.))
These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're 
scared due to ignorance.


Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:
I think that's a pretty invalid point. I don't see anyone 
questioning how to write an exit or install a new system, or use 
SMPe, so why would they question my use of anything I need in order 
to perform my job efficiently?


Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  If 
they didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the 
project.


Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Doug]

So David, you consider using ISPF panels a net negative? I used to write 
dialogs for anything repetitive that I or anyone else had to do.
Never thought it was bad if  "people in charge are by-the-book mentality 
and I can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to 
SMP/e." Especially when I was the person in charge. And I knew what the 
CBT tape was and is


Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "David Spiegel" <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 21-Feb-23 6:09:15
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed 
on a new environment?



Hi Brian,
You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need in order to 
perform my job efficiently?  ..."
My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality and I can 
imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e.
(At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never heard of it" 
(This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more than 30 years.))
These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're scared due to 
ignorance.

Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:

I think that's a pretty invalid point.  I don't see anyone questioning how to 
write an exit or install a new system, or use SMPe, so why would they question 
my use of anything I need in order to perform my job efficiently?

Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  If they 
didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the project.

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Brian,
You said: "...so why would they question my use of anything I need in 
order to perform my job efficiently?  ..."
My answer is that the people in charge are by-the-book mentality and I 
can imagine them using ISPF Panels for everything from RACF to SMP/e.
(At one of my jobs, the MVS Team Lead said : "CBT??? ... never heard of 
it" (This guy has been an MVS Systems Programmer for more than 30 years.))
These same people eschew creativity in any form, because, they're scared 
due to ignorance.


Regards,
David

On 2023-02-21 00:31, Brian Westerman wrote:

I think that's a pretty invalid point.  I don't see anyone questioning how to 
write an exit or install a new system, or use SMPe, so why would they question 
my use of anything I need in order to perform my job efficiently?

Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  If they 
didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the project.

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Brian Westerman]

I think that's a pretty invalid point.  I don't see anyone questioning how to 
write an exit or install a new system, or use SMPe, so why would they question 
my use of anything I need in order to perform my job efficiently?  

Maybe it's just that they all assume I must know what I'm doing.  If they 
didn't believe that, I doubt they would have asked me to do the project.

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Wayne Bickerdike]

The Covid years were horrible for me in Australia. We were working for a
Defence Contractor (USA company).

We weren't allowed to work remotely. Our Australian management wouldn't
argue in our favour, so a 45 minute commute through road blocks with Police
and Armed forces checking your right to travel through the Melbourne "ring
of steel".

Management and admin staff all worked from, however, we had to mask up in
the office, maintain "social distancing", plaster hand-sanitiser on at
frequent intervals, measure forehead temperature to make sure we weren't
infected. Absolute farce.

The same organisation doesn't allow USB sticks to be inserted into desktops
or laptops connected to the network. Some certified USB drives were allowed
but the public servants wouldn't hand them over.

Public servants worked from home. Not so the ones who get the job done. I
retired in late 2021 and haven't regretted a single day since.

I would say my best work was done when working from home when an employer
allowed it. So good to get away from the background noise of the office.

In the late 70's I was lucky enough to work away from mainframes. Some Z80
assembler, 6502 Assembler and a variety of micro operating systems such as
CP/M, MP/M, NorthStar Basic, Apple IIE and Cromemco System/3. We broke in
Microfocus COBOL when it was a fledgling product.

My best IT job was the first one. UK multinational, ADABAS, PL/I, Assembler
and some great and very smart mentors. The next role wasn't so great and
that was IBM, I thought I was going to the dream job, ack no.

The job has given me lots of world travel. West Coast USA, UK, Australia
and Indonesia.


On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 1:03 PM David Spiegel <
0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Hi Leonard,
> You said: "... a manager who thought if he couldn't see you, you weren't
> working ..."
> This is the government mentality I referred to earlier. Here is one
> other weird fact .., the per capita insanity (in Yiddish M'shugaas)
> rises from municipal to state/provincial to federal. (I've worked at all
> 3.)
> If anyone wants, I've got all  kinds of crazy stories to tell (just like
> everyone else, I'm sure).
>
> Regarding the uncooperative colleagues, I worked at a place where the
> SysProg-in-chief decided that I would not be permitted to run DFSFSMSdss
> in TSO (to make application backups to disk), because, I might impinge
> on someone else's Address Space.
> (TSO Tape mounts were out of the question, which didn't bother me.)
> This  veto was after his underlings saw no issue with my request, but,
> had to get his "blessing".
> This person had no clue what Virtual Storage means, let alone its
> implementation.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-02-20 20:08, Leonard D Woren wrote:
> > When I started as the primary and basically only real sysprog at a
> > small shop almost 40 years ago, it tooks weeks to get up to speed
> > because the junior guys there resented me being brought in to be their
> > supervisor, and wouldn't tell me anything.  The previous lead guy was
> > being kept on as a part-time consultant until I could get up to speed,
> > but he was nearly useless.  "Where's the IOGEN source?"  "I don't
> > know." Sigh.
> >
> > This article  is almost 3 years old and was written when COVID-19
> > vaccine was just a hope, yet in my opinion it's still mostly valid:
> >
> >Never Go Back to the Office
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fideas%2Farchive%2F2020%2F05%2Fnever-go-back-office%2F611830%2F=05%7C01%7C%7C2ab92f9bdf0d4e07f61c08db13a8300b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638125385402690889%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=gYtkt8%2B2AElM3xVnuV9bp36O2Anpqa9lBlfc%2Bc%2Fskoo%3D=0
> >
> >
> > What I remember of working in an office, other than commutes being
> > horrid resulting in people starting their workday in a bad mood, is
> > people getting to the office, getting their coffee, standing around
> > socializing for 15-30 minutes, and then maybe starting useful work.
> >
> > The last time I worked in an office was at a small start-up for a
> > manager who thought if he couldn't see you, you weren't working. But
> > for some reason he didn't notice the guy without enough to do who
> > spent a major chunk of his time transcribing books.
> >
> > In lieu of having coworkers at arm's reach for helping supply
> > information (where's the IOGEN?), now there's Jabber, or the mess
> > called Slack, or Microsoft Teams, etc, plus WebEx, Zoom, etc.  And
> > old-school email.
> >
> >
> > Tom Brennan wrote on 2/20/2023 8:19 AM:
> >> In the 80's I purposely bought a house only 12 minutes away from
> >> where I planned to work until retirement.  But this is Los Angeles so
> >> that 12 minutes eventually turned into a painful 30-45 with few
> >> work-from-home options.  When I got outsourced and got a new job, I
> >> remember calling 

Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Leonard,
You said: "... a manager who thought if he couldn't see you, you weren't 
working ..."
This is the government mentality I referred to earlier. Here is one 
other weird fact .., the per capita insanity (in Yiddish M'shugaas) 
rises from municipal to state/provincial to federal. (I've worked at all 3.)
If anyone wants, I've got all  kinds of crazy stories to tell (just like 
everyone else, I'm sure).


Regarding the uncooperative colleagues, I worked at a place where the 
SysProg-in-chief decided that I would not be permitted to run DFSFSMSdss 
in TSO (to make application backups to disk), because, I might impinge 
on someone else's Address Space.
(TSO Tape mounts were out of the question, which didn't bother me.) 
This  veto was after his underlings saw no issue with my request, but, 
had to get his "blessing".
This person had no clue what Virtual Storage means, let alone its 
implementation.


Regards,
David

On 2023-02-20 20:08, Leonard D Woren wrote:
When I started as the primary and basically only real sysprog at a 
small shop almost 40 years ago, it tooks weeks to get up to speed 
because the junior guys there resented me being brought in to be their 
supervisor, and wouldn't tell me anything.  The previous lead guy was 
being kept on as a part-time consultant until I could get up to speed, 
but he was nearly useless.  "Where's the IOGEN source?"  "I don't 
know." Sigh.


This article  is almost 3 years old and was written when COVID-19 
vaccine was just a hope, yet in my opinion it's still mostly valid:


   Never Go Back to the Office
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fideas%2Farchive%2F2020%2F05%2Fnever-go-back-office%2F611830%2F=05%7C01%7C%7C2ab92f9bdf0d4e07f61c08db13a8300b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638125385402690889%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=gYtkt8%2B2AElM3xVnuV9bp36O2Anpqa9lBlfc%2Bc%2Fskoo%3D=0 



What I remember of working in an office, other than commutes being 
horrid resulting in people starting their workday in a bad mood, is 
people getting to the office, getting their coffee, standing around 
socializing for 15-30 minutes, and then maybe starting useful work.


The last time I worked in an office was at a small start-up for a 
manager who thought if he couldn't see you, you weren't working. But 
for some reason he didn't notice the guy without enough to do who 
spent a major chunk of his time transcribing books.


In lieu of having coworkers at arm's reach for helping supply 
information (where's the IOGEN?), now there's Jabber, or the mess 
called Slack, or Microsoft Teams, etc, plus WebEx, Zoom, etc.  And 
old-school email.



Tom Brennan wrote on 2/20/2023 8:19 AM:
In the 80's I purposely bought a house only 12 minutes away from 
where I planned to work until retirement.  But this is Los Angeles so 
that 12 minutes eventually turned into a painful 30-45 with few 
work-from-home options.  When I got outsourced and got a new job, I 
remember calling the owner of the new company asking what office I 
should work at and he basically replied, "What in the world are you 
talking about - I don't want you wasting time driving."  Now that's a 
modern attitude!


On 2/20/2023 7:46 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
Yeah, I commuted half an hour one-way on the interstate for a good 
many years and took it for granted. I would have said it didn't 
cause any stress.  Then my wife talked me into buying a house in a 
different location, and suddenly I was commuting ten minutes by back 
roads...and I realized I'd been wrong, it really did make a difference.


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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Leonard D Woren]

When I started as the primary and basically only real sysprog at a 
small shop almost 40 years ago, it tooks weeks to get up to speed 
because the junior guys there resented me being brought in to be their 
supervisor, and wouldn't tell me anything.  The previous lead guy was 
being kept on as a part-time consultant until I could get up to speed, 
but he was nearly useless.  "Where's the IOGEN source?"  "I don't 
know." Sigh.


This article  is almost 3 years old and was written when COVID-19 
vaccine was just a hope, yet in my opinion it's still mostly valid:


   Never Go Back to the Office
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/never-go-back-office/611830/ 



What I remember of working in an office, other than commutes being 
horrid resulting in people starting their workday in a bad mood, is 
people getting to the office, getting their coffee, standing around 
socializing for 15-30 minutes, and then maybe starting useful work.


The last time I worked in an office was at a small start-up for a 
manager who thought if he couldn't see you, you weren't working. But 
for some reason he didn't notice the guy without enough to do who 
spent a major chunk of his time transcribing books.


In lieu of having coworkers at arm's reach for helping supply 
information (where's the IOGEN?), now there's Jabber, or the mess 
called Slack, or Microsoft Teams, etc, plus WebEx, Zoom, etc.  And 
old-school email.



Tom Brennan wrote on 2/20/2023 8:19 AM:
In the 80's I purposely bought a house only 12 minutes away from 
where I planned to work until retirement.  But this is Los Angeles 
so that 12 minutes eventually turned into a painful 30-45 with few 
work-from-home options.  When I got outsourced and got a new job, I 
remember calling the owner of the new company asking what office I 
should work at and he basically replied, "What in the world are you 
talking about - I don't want you wasting time driving."  Now that's 
a modern attitude!


On 2/20/2023 7:46 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:
Yeah, I commuted half an hour one-way on the interstate for a good 
many years and took it for granted.  I would have said it didn't 
cause any stress.  Then my wife talked me into buying a house in a 
different location, and suddenly I was commuting ten minutes by 
back roads...and I realized I'd been wrong, it really did make a 
difference.


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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Tom Brennan]

In the 80's I purposely bought a house only 12 minutes away from where I 
planned to work until retirement.  But this is Los Angeles so that 12 
minutes eventually turned into a painful 30-45 with few work-from-home 
options.  When I got outsourced and got a new job, I remember calling 
the owner of the new company asking what office I should work at and he 
basically replied, "What in the world are you talking about - I don't 
want you wasting time driving."  Now that's a modern attitude!


On 2/20/2023 7:46 AM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Yeah, I commuted half an hour one-way on the interstate for a good many years 
and took it for granted.  I would have said it didn't cause any stress.  Then 
my wife talked me into buying a house in a different location, and suddenly I 
was commuting ten minutes by back roads...and I realized I'd been wrong, it 
really did make a difference.


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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Bob Bridges]

Yeah, I commuted half an hour one-way on the interstate for a good many years 
and took it for granted.  I would have said it didn't cause any stress.  Then 
my wife talked me into buying a house in a different location, and suddenly I 
was commuting ten minutes by back roads...and I realized I'd been wrong, it 
really did make a difference.

Nowadays I get dressed, comb my hair and then walk three feet to my desk.  
Getting older and more experienced is a rough life!

(Although I do sometimes miss the chit-chat over cubicle walls.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Justice is incidental to law and order.  -J Edgar Hoover */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:25

You said: "... a number of reasons they want you on-site that doesn't have to 
do with trust ..."
Here's one (especially governments in the US and Canada (I've worked for 
both)): We've always done it this way (and we're not going revisit this ... 
ever)) aka inertia.

If I had on-site colleagues with whom I have to regularly confer in person, 
you're obviously correct.  Otherwise, I don't see the value in commuting 2 
hours/day uncompensated.  (6 years ago, I had a job doing Online Banking 
Development and this was the case.)

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Bob Bridges]

Quite right, Shmuel, and I guess I was thinking of only one aspect of trust,
ie "can I trust you not to steal from the company?".  That question can't be
resolved by insisting that I work on-site (because what manager would know
what I was doing, or even understand what I do, whether I do it 20 feet or
20 miles from him?).  But the issue of goofing off when on the clock is also
trust, and that's one of the reasons managers could want me on-site.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* New York (SatireWire.com) - A study issued Tuesday claiming that
pessimists have more long-term health problems than positive people just
proves pessimists were right, say pessimists. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:18

There are different kinds of trust. Mistrust can be a good thing or a bad
thing.

Can I trust you to do your job?

Can I trust you to not abuse your authority?

Can I trust you to not make mistakes?

Can I trust you to recognize fatigue and take a break when necessary?

As a matter of policy, I prefer checks and balances to avoid errors.
Maintaining multiple user ids with different levels of access and privile
can be seen as a lack of trust, but I see it as a good thing.

Micromanaging, OTOH, can damage both morale and productivity; in fact, it
might actually increase the error rate.

Code and design reviews can be seen as a sign of distrust, but they are well
worth doing.

Ordering an employee to take a nap during a long DR test can be a sign of
distrust, but IMHO it is good management.

Bottom line: it's a balancing act. The tradeoffs vary from shop to shop.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:04 AM

I've been staying out of this discussion 'cause I'm not a sysprog.  (I do
security, and before I did security I was an apps developer.)  But I'll
comment on this one point:  It obviously does NOT mean that.  Or rather, it
could mean that if the only reason they want you on-site is that they don't
trust you otherwise.  But that's not a serious possibility.  Any of us can
think of a number of reasons they want you on-site that doesn't have to do
with trust, leading among them (in my opinion) is simply habit:  They're
USED to seeing people on-site.  There are other and better reasons too.

Mostly it seems to me that management exhibit a surprising level of trust in
matters like this.  As I said, I'm a security jock, and I've been fully
remote since five years before COVID, but mostly wherever I go clients hand
me the keys to the kingdom (a different set of keys than yours but
nonetheless powerful) without any outward qualms.  I sometimes wonder at it,
for all that it's necessary for me to do the job they hired me for.  Do they
lie awake at night worrying about me?  They certainly wouldn't tell me if
they do.  Are they merely clueless?  How much is their concern assuaged by
the fact that the recruiting company that rents me out to them undoubtedly
covers the possibility of my misbehavior with scads of insurance?

(Rereading this I have to clarify something:  I don't mean that trust cannot
seriously be an issue - only that it's not the only possible issue.)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
David Spiegel
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 06:49

I have seen many job ads which say "remote until COVID". This means that
they are willing to trust my work out of the office while there is a
pandemic. Afterwards, I'm not trusted?!

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Bob,
You said: "... a number of reasons they want you on-site that doesn't 
have to do with trust ..."
Here's one (especially governments in the US and Canada (I've worked for 
both)): We've always done it this way (and we're not going revisit this 
... ever)) aka inertia.


If I had on-site colleagues with whom I have to regularly confer in 
person, you're obviously correct.

Otherwise, I don't see the value in commuting 2 hours/day uncompensated.
(6 years ago, I had a job doing Online Banking Development and this was 
the case.)


Regards,
David

On 2023-02-20 10:04, Bob Bridges wrote:

I've been staying out of this discussion 'cause I'm not a sysprog.  (I do 
security, and before I did security I was an apps developer.)  But I'll comment 
on this one point:  It obviously does NOT mean that.  Or rather, it could mean 
that if the only reason they want you on-site is that they don't trust you 
otherwise.  But that's not a serious possibility.  Any of us can think of a 
number of reasons they want you on-site that doesn't have to do with trust, 
leading among them (in my opinion) is simply habit:  They're USED to seeing 
people on-site.  There are other and better reasons too.

Mostly it seems to me that management exhibit a surprising level of trust in 
matters like this.  As I said, I'm a security jock, and I've been fully remote 
since five years before COVID, but mostly wherever I go clients hand me the 
keys to the kingdom (a different set of keys than yours but nonetheless 
powerful) without any outward qualms.  I sometimes wonder at it, for all that 
it's necessary for me to do the job they hired me for.  Do they lie awake at 
night worrying about me?  They certainly wouldn't tell me if they do.  Are they 
merely clueless?  How much is their concern assuaged by the fact that the 
recruiting company that rents me out to them undoubtedly covers the possibility 
of my misbehavior with scads of insurance?

(Rereading this I have to clarify something:  I don't mean that trust cannot 
seriously be an issue - only that it's not the only possible issue.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* [Repentence] is not something God demands of you before He will take you 
back and which He could let you off if He chose; it is simply a description of 
what going back is like.  -C S Lewis, quoted in _In His Image_ by Dr Paul Brand 
and Philip Yancey */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 06:49

I have seen many job ads which say "remote until COVID". This means that they 
are willing to trust my work out of the office while there is a pandemic. Afterwards, I'm 
not trusted?!

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

There are different kinds of trust. Mistrust can be a good thing or a bad thing.

Can I trust you to do your job?

Can I trust you to not abuse your authority?

Can I trust you to not make mistakes?

Can I trust you to recognize fatigue and take a break when necessary?

As a matter of policy, I prefer checks and balances to avoid errors. 
Maintaining multiple user ids with different levels of access and privile can 
be seen as a lack of trust, but I see it as a good thing.

Micromanaging, OTOH, can damage both morale and productivity; in fact, it might 
actually increase the error rate.

Code and design reviews can be seen as a sign of distrust, but they are well 
worth doing.

Ordering an employee to take a nap during a long DR test can be a sign of 
distrust, but IMHO it is good management.

Bottom line: it's a balancing act. The tradeoffs vary from shop to shop.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 10:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?

I've been staying out of this discussion 'cause I'm not a sysprog.  (I do 
security, and before I did security I was an apps developer.)  But I'll comment 
on this one point:  It obviously does NOT mean that.  Or rather, it could mean 
that if the only reason they want you on-site is that they don't trust you 
otherwise.  But that's not a serious possibility.  Any of us can think of a 
number of reasons they want you on-site that doesn't have to do with trust, 
leading among them (in my opinion) is simply habit:  They're USED to seeing 
people on-site.  There are other and better reasons too.

Mostly it seems to me that management exhibit a surprising level of trust in 
matters like this.  As I said, I'm a security jock, and I've been fully remote 
since five years before COVID, but mostly wherever I go clients hand me the 
keys to the kingdom (a different set of keys than yours but nonetheless 
powerful) without any outward qualms.  I sometimes wonder at it, for all that 
it's necessary for me to do the job they hired me for.  Do they lie awake at 
night worrying about me?  They certainly wouldn't tell me if they do.  Are they 
merely clueless?  How much is their concern assuaged by the fact that the 
recruiting company that rents me out to them undoubtedly covers the possibility 
of my misbehavior with scads of insurance?

(Rereading this I have to clarify something:  I don't mean that trust cannot 
seriously be an issue - only that it's not the only possible issue.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* [Repentence] is not something God demands of you before He will take you 
back and which He could let you off if He chose; it is simply a description of 
what going back is like.  -C S Lewis, quoted in _In His Image_ by Dr Paul Brand 
and Philip Yancey */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 06:49

I have seen many job ads which say "remote until COVID". This means that they 
are willing to trust my work out of the office while there is a pandemic. 
Afterwards, I'm not trusted?!

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Tom Brennan]

Thanks David.  You actually brought up one more area of trust: 
Commitment.  How do they know I'm not wasting time?  When I was a 
sysprog in the office, if I wasn't working on something specific there 
was a lot of free time.  So I would try to work on side projects, 
assembler, scripts, etc.  One day the boss decided he would be spending 
a day with each person to watch what they did, so my plan was to browse 
random web sites that day, just to make a point.  Luckily he gave up on 
that idea and it never happened.


And yes, I agree there's almost no reason to work in an office anymore. 
I only mentioned "datacenter" because I was on site last week watching a 
z16 install.  Turns out the sysprogs for that machine have never been to 
the site - they rely on contractors to drop by and connect cables, work 
with the SSR, help with HMC setup, etc.  I brought my regular tool kit 
including USB's, cables, and an 8-port switch for problem diagnosis.  I 
imagine there are some places that wouldn't let me in the door with that 
kit.


On 2/20/2023 3:48 AM, David Spiegel wrote:

Hi Tom,
I've been saying this (i.e. matter of trust) for many years.

I also say that any (potential) employer who demands that a SysProg work 
on-site is being illogical. I have seen many job ads which say "remote 
until COVID". This means that they are willing to trust my work out of 
the office while

there is a pandemic. Afterwards, I'm not trusted?!
(Back in the '80s before VPNs, some places had no (or very limited) 
remote access. Later, the on-site mentality was changed by a lot of 
companies with governments being the big exception.
They also believed (mistakenly) that if an employee/contractor was "in 
the office" the work could be monitored. i believe that if the 
milestones are set properly, this is not a problem. Also, if someone 
really wants to goof off, it can be done at the office too.)


While we're on the topic of installing one's "took kit" ... I work at a 
place where the MVS people (i do middleware at this job, but, I've been 
doing MVS for more than 40 years) have been thwarting every effort I've 
made to have (ACF2) TSO Command Limiting removed from my account. I even 
showed them official emails from Broadcom saying that TSO Command 
Limiting is useless for my job (especially because I have update access 
to APF Authorized PDS(E)s).
At one meeting, the MVS Team Lead asked why I want this capability. I 
mentioned the CBT "Tape". The MVS Team Lead then said: "CBT??? ... Never 
heard of it! I Googled it and couldn't find it". I then realized that 
this was a no-win situation.
(They also refused to update the TSO Command Limiting Table to include 
e.g. PDS86.). Incidentally, these people had some Exit redesign work 
assigned to me, because they claimed to not know Assembler.

Systems Programmers not knowing Assembler? ... Make your own conclusion.

Regards,
David


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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Bob Bridges]

I've been staying out of this discussion 'cause I'm not a sysprog.  (I do 
security, and before I did security I was an apps developer.)  But I'll comment 
on this one point:  It obviously does NOT mean that.  Or rather, it could mean 
that if the only reason they want you on-site is that they don't trust you 
otherwise.  But that's not a serious possibility.  Any of us can think of a 
number of reasons they want you on-site that doesn't have to do with trust, 
leading among them (in my opinion) is simply habit:  They're USED to seeing 
people on-site.  There are other and better reasons too.

Mostly it seems to me that management exhibit a surprising level of trust in 
matters like this.  As I said, I'm a security jock, and I've been fully remote 
since five years before COVID, but mostly wherever I go clients hand me the 
keys to the kingdom (a different set of keys than yours but nonetheless 
powerful) without any outward qualms.  I sometimes wonder at it, for all that 
it's necessary for me to do the job they hired me for.  Do they lie awake at 
night worrying about me?  They certainly wouldn't tell me if they do.  Are they 
merely clueless?  How much is their concern assuaged by the fact that the 
recruiting company that rents me out to them undoubtedly covers the possibility 
of my misbehavior with scads of insurance?

(Rereading this I have to clarify something:  I don't mean that trust cannot 
seriously be an issue - only that it's not the only possible issue.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* [Repentence] is not something God demands of you before He will take you 
back and which He could let you off if He chose; it is simply a description of 
what going back is like.  -C S Lewis, quoted in _In His Image_ by Dr Paul Brand 
and Philip Yancey */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 06:49

I have seen many job ads which say "remote until COVID". This means that they 
are willing to trust my work out of the office while there is a pandemic. 
Afterwards, I'm not trusted?!

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[kekronbekron]

"but honestly I can't remember ever asking anyone if they had a problem with me 
doing so."

I'm sure they would be very upset if they knew.
Those whose reputation precede them can get away with it. 
Or if there is still trust to be found in workplaces (as David said).
For the rest of us, we're merely Jira janitors.

- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, February 20th, 2023 at 11:22 AM, Brian Westerman 
 wrote:


> The USB is just for emergencies, I can download from my phone just as well, 
> and from my NAS at home if necessary. It seems odd to me to lock down a 
> systems programmer from getting information that may save the site, but maybe 
> it's just me. I can honestly say that no one has ever told me I could not 
> load my stuff, but honestly I can't remember ever asking anyone if they had a 
> problem with me doing so.
> 
> Most things I could probably just retype, especially when I have the data 
> already displayable. It seems very short sighted to "lock down" use of a tool 
> that could very well fix a major problem, but again, maybe it's just that I 
> have never asked anyone if they minded me fixing their site. :)
> 
> Brian
> 
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

ObDieJungfrauvonOrleans We've all had colleagues who were most useful when the 
were goofing off:

Boss: How long will this task take you if Jon helps?
SP:   Three months.
Boss: How long will it take if John doesn't help?
SP:   Three weeks.

It's hard for some folks to wrap their minds around the concept of open source. 
That's understandable; it's been around for less than 8 decades, although not 
under that name, and it takes a while for the word to get around.

I use the terms "systems janitor" and "SMP jocky" for MVS systems programmers 
who can't write and debug assembler, CLIST or REXX. There are a lot of them. In 
a large shop they may be useful.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Spiegel [0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 6:48 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?

Hi Tom,
I've been saying this (i.e. matter of trust) for many years.

I also say that any (potential) employer who demands that a SysProg work
on-site is being illogical. I have seen many job ads which say "remote
until COVID". This means that they are willing to trust my work out of
the office while
there is a pandemic. Afterwards, I'm not trusted?!
(Back in the '80s before VPNs, some places had no (or very limited)
remote access. Later, the on-site mentality was changed by a lot of
companies with governments being the big exception.
They also believed (mistakenly) that if an employee/contractor was "in
the office" the work could be monitored. i believe that if the
milestones are set properly, this is not a problem. Also, if someone
really wants to goof off, it can be done at the office too.)

While we're on the topic of installing one's "took kit" ... I work at a
place where the MVS people (i do middleware at this job, but, I've been
doing MVS for more than 40 years) have been thwarting every effort I've
made to have (ACF2) TSO Command Limiting removed from my account. I even
showed them official emails from Broadcom saying that TSO Command
Limiting is useless for my job (especially because I have update access
to APF Authorized PDS(E)s).
At one meeting, the MVS Team Lead asked why I want this capability. I
mentioned the CBT "Tape". The MVS Team Lead then said: "CBT??? ... Never
heard of it! I Googled it and couldn't find it". I then realized that
this was a no-win situation.
(They also refused to update the TSO Command Limiting Table to include
e.g. PDS86.). Incidentally, these people had some Exit redesign work
assigned to me, because they claimed to not know Assembler.
Systems Programmers not knowing Assembler? ... Make your own conclusion.

Regards,
David

On 2023-02-20 02:04, Tom Brennan wrote:
> I think it's a matter of trust.  Right off, a company needs to trust
> that I'm honest, otherwise they shouldn't allow me anywhere near their
> datacenter or network.  But how can they trust that I'm reasonably
> competent in the areas I claim to be, and that I won't make mistakes
> that cause big problems?  That takes time or guesses or references or
> maybe just their gut instinct.  I don't know.
>
> On 2/19/2023 9:52 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
>> The USB is just for emergencies, I can download from my phone just as
>> well, and from my NAS at home if necessary.  It seems odd to me to
>> lock down a systems programmer from getting information that may save
>> the site, but maybe it's just me.  I can honestly say that no one has
>> ever told me I could not load my stuff, but honestly I can't remember
>> ever asking anyone if they had a problem with me doing so.
>>
>> Most things I could probably just retype, especially when I have the
>> data already displayable.  It seems very short sighted to "lock down"
>> use of a tool that could very well fix a major problem, but again,
>> maybe it's just that I have never asked anyone if they minded me
>> fixing their site. :)
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> --
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>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Tom,
I've been saying this (i.e. matter of trust) for many years.

I also say that any (potential) employer who demands that a SysProg work 
on-site is being illogical. I have seen many job ads which say "remote 
until COVID". This means that they are willing to trust my work out of 
the office while

there is a pandemic. Afterwards, I'm not trusted?!
(Back in the '80s before VPNs, some places had no (or very limited) 
remote access. Later, the on-site mentality was changed by a lot of 
companies with governments being the big exception.
They also believed (mistakenly) that if an employee/contractor was "in 
the office" the work could be monitored. i believe that if the 
milestones are set properly, this is not a problem. Also, if someone 
really wants to goof off, it can be done at the office too.)


While we're on the topic of installing one's "took kit" ... I work at a 
place where the MVS people (i do middleware at this job, but, I've been 
doing MVS for more than 40 years) have been thwarting every effort I've 
made to have (ACF2) TSO Command Limiting removed from my account. I even 
showed them official emails from Broadcom saying that TSO Command 
Limiting is useless for my job (especially because I have update access 
to APF Authorized PDS(E)s).
At one meeting, the MVS Team Lead asked why I want this capability. I 
mentioned the CBT "Tape". The MVS Team Lead then said: "CBT??? ... Never 
heard of it! I Googled it and couldn't find it". I then realized that 
this was a no-win situation.
(They also refused to update the TSO Command Limiting Table to include 
e.g. PDS86.). Incidentally, these people had some Exit redesign work 
assigned to me, because they claimed to not know Assembler.

Systems Programmers not knowing Assembler? ... Make your own conclusion.

Regards,
David

On 2023-02-20 02:04, Tom Brennan wrote:
I think it's a matter of trust.  Right off, a company needs to trust 
that I'm honest, otherwise they shouldn't allow me anywhere near their 
datacenter or network.  But how can they trust that I'm reasonably 
competent in the areas I claim to be, and that I won't make mistakes 
that cause big problems?  That takes time or guesses or references or 
maybe just their gut instinct.  I don't know.


On 2/19/2023 9:52 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
The USB is just for emergencies, I can download from my phone just as 
well, and from my NAS at home if necessary.  It seems odd to me to 
lock down a systems programmer from getting information that may save 
the site, but maybe it's just me.  I can honestly say that no one has 
ever told me I could not load my stuff, but honestly I can't remember 
ever asking anyone if they had a problem with me doing so.


Most things I could probably just retype, especially when I have the 
data already displayable.  It seems very short sighted to "lock down" 
use of a tool that could very well fix a major problem, but again, 
maybe it's just that I have never asked anyone if they minded me 
fixing their site. :)


Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Tom Brennan]

I think it's a matter of trust.  Right off, a company needs to trust 
that I'm honest, otherwise they shouldn't allow me anywhere near their 
datacenter or network.  But how can they trust that I'm reasonably 
competent in the areas I claim to be, and that I won't make mistakes 
that cause big problems?  That takes time or guesses or references or 
maybe just their gut instinct.  I don't know.


On 2/19/2023 9:52 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:

The USB is just for emergencies, I can download from my phone just as well, and 
from my NAS at home if necessary.  It seems odd to me to lock down a systems 
programmer from getting information that may save the site, but maybe it's just 
me.  I can honestly say that no one has ever told me I could not load my stuff, 
but honestly I can't remember ever asking anyone if they had a problem with me 
doing so.

Most things I could probably just retype, especially when I have the data already 
displayable.  It seems very short sighted to "lock down" use of a tool that 
could very well fix a major problem, but again, maybe it's just that I have never asked 
anyone if they minded me fixing their site. :)

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Brian Westerman]

The USB is just for emergencies, I can download from my phone just as well, and 
from my NAS at home if necessary.  It seems odd to me to lock down a systems 
programmer from getting information that may save the site, but maybe it's just 
me.  I can honestly say that no one has ever told me I could not load my stuff, 
but honestly I can't remember ever asking anyone if they had a problem with me 
doing so.  

Most things I could probably just retype, especially when I have the data 
already displayable.  It seems very short sighted to "lock down" use of a tool 
that could very well fix a major problem, but again, maybe it's just that I 
have never asked anyone if they minded me fixing their site. :)

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Tom Brennan]

Ditto here.

On 2/19/2023 4:38 PM, Beverly Caldwell wrote:

Oh dear.



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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

It's a management issue, not a technical issue. If management gives a green 
light, any competent systems programmer should be able to import his personal 
tools. If management says no, then you have an obligation to respect their 
rules unless and until they change their minds.

The same issue applies to a DVD; with permission it's trivial; without 
permission, don't do it even though it's still trivial.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Brian Westerman [brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 7:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?

I carry everything around on a USB drive.  All JCL, manuals and source code and 
even load libraries that I might ever need.  Drives are very cheap and can hold 
much more data than I ever would need.  I rarely go anywhere without it 
because, well, it's attached to my keys.

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Rob Schramm]

Okay on the subject of violating the code of security regarding external
utilities their shop their rules.  It is way better to fight that up front
than to get found out bringing something in.  Most shops I've worked on are
fairly easy about utility stuff however there are always the hard cases and
it's just not worth it.

One point about my post was - it's better to just count on the stuff that
you know is there rather than a non-existent guarantee that it's going to
be something that you can load onto it.  It's like learning vi for an AIX
system because you can't count on anything else.

Rob

On Sun, Feb 19, 2023, 19:56 Laurence Chiu  wrote:

> The last 3 environments I worked in the USB drives were locked down so you
> could not use them. And if you did manage to, then your action would be
> detected and could lead to disciplinary action. So for me at least, that is
> not an option.
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 1:53 PM Brian Westerman <
> brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com> wrote:
>
> > I carry everything around on a USB drive.  All JCL, manuals and source
> > code and even load libraries that I might ever need.  Drives are very
> cheap
> > and can hold much more data than I ever would need.  I rarely go anywhere
> > without it because, well, it's attached to my keys.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > --
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Laurence Chiu]

The last 3 environments I worked in the USB drives were locked down so you
could not use them. And if you did manage to, then your action would be
detected and could lead to disciplinary action. So for me at least, that is
not an option.

On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 1:53 PM Brian Westerman <
brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com> wrote:

> I carry everything around on a USB drive.  All JCL, manuals and source
> code and even load libraries that I might ever need.  Drives are very cheap
> and can hold much more data than I ever would need.  I rarely go anywhere
> without it because, well, it's attached to my keys.
>
> Brian
>
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Brian Westerman]

I carry everything around on a USB drive.  All JCL, manuals and source code and 
even load libraries that I might ever need.  Drives are very cheap and can hold 
much more data than I ever would need.  I rarely go anywhere without it 
because, well, it's attached to my keys.

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Beverly Caldwell]

Oh dear.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2023, 5:03 PM Grant Taylor <
023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On 2/19/23 4:27 PM, Beverly Caldwell wrote:
> > But yes it has never been a problem for me. Sometimes takes a little
> > deviousness to make the transfer work.
> >
> > These people think they are so smart but there is usually a way round
> > their little schemes.
>
> I feel like this flies in the face of security policies that some
> organizations put in place.  What's more is that trying to circumvent
> the stated policy is often sufficient violation to become an HR ~>
> employment problem.
>
> You should never have to try, or even attempt, to get around something.
>
> You should have blessing and an approved method to bring something in.
>
> If someone violates this precept to bring something in, how do you know
> that they won't also violate this precept to take something out?
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Grant Taylor]

On 2/19/23 4:27 PM, Beverly Caldwell wrote:
But yes it has never been a problem for me. Sometimes takes a little 
deviousness to make the transfer work.


These people think they are so smart but there is usually a way round 
their little schemes.


I feel like this flies in the face of security policies that some 
organizations put in place.  What's more is that trying to circumvent 
the stated policy is often sufficient violation to become an HR ~> 
employment problem.


You should never have to try, or even attempt, to get around something.

You should have blessing and an approved method to bring something in.

If someone violates this precept to bring something in, how do you know 
that they won't also violate this precept to take something out?




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

Tools? That's something to discuss up front. Not just ownership, but whether to 
share.

JCL? Sharing is fine if your colleagues understand "as is".

I'm most comfortable when sharing is the norm, but their shop, their rules.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll 
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 5:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023, at 22:33, Rob Schramm wrote:

> Ps Most of the rest can be figured out.. tools/JCL can be downloaded

Do all sites actually let you bring in your own tools, sample JCL etc?  How
about - say - assembler source?  It seems to me that some places might
view that as a security risk.  And how, if you develop any new samples/tools
at one site do you get them out afterwards?


Never mind moving to a new site, how much less productive does anyone think
they would be if one day they suddenly had no access to their own datasets
(and let's say those of colleagues, as well)?

I know that when I last worked I hardly ever wrote any JCL etc from scratch.  I
looked for my own prior examples.  If I had none, I browsed my immediate
colleagues' PDSes.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Beverly Caldwell]

I would answer your questions if knew who you were and why you were asking!
But yes it has never been a problem for me. Sometimes takes a little
deviousness to make the transfer work.
These people think they are so smart but there is usually a way round their
little schemes.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2023, 3:52 PM Jeremy Nicoll 
wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Feb 2023, at 22:33, Rob Schramm wrote:
>
> > Ps Most of the rest can be figured out.. tools/JCL can be downloaded
>
> Do all sites actually let you bring in your own tools, sample JCL etc?
> How
> about - say - assembler source?  It seems to me that some places might
> view that as a security risk.  And how, if you develop any new
> samples/tools
> at one site do you get them out afterwards?
>
>
> Never mind moving to a new site, how much less productive does anyone think
> they would be if one day they suddenly had no access to their own datasets
> (and let's say those of colleagues, as well)?
>
> I know that when I last worked I hardly ever wrote any JCL etc from
> scratch.  I
> looked for my own prior examples.  If I had none, I browsed my immediate
> colleagues' PDSes.
>
> --
> Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>
> --
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023, at 22:33, Rob Schramm wrote:

> Ps Most of the rest can be figured out.. tools/JCL can be downloaded

Do all sites actually let you bring in your own tools, sample JCL etc?  How 
about - say - assembler source?  It seems to me that some places might 
view that as a security risk.  And how, if you develop any new samples/tools
at one site do you get them out afterwards?


Never mind moving to a new site, how much less productive does anyone think
they would be if one day they suddenly had no access to their own datasets
(and let's say those of colleagues, as well)?

I know that when I last worked I hardly ever wrote any JCL etc from scratch.  I
looked for my own prior examples.  If I had none, I browsed my immediate
colleagues' PDSes.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Rob Schramm]

I agree with Brian.  It really depends on what you need done.  But start
with

1) where or how is syslog, stc output and jobs archived - this is nice
2) what are the smf jobs - also nice
3) hope for SDSF
4) hope for the correct access as a sysprog
5) hmc access
6) doc if it exists

Most everything can be figured out if you have this stuff.

At this point you should be able to drop in and help.  If you can't..
well.. most of the people I see on the list could do it..  they might
complain.. but given a terrible turn over for a system..  who wouldn't.

My 2(of whatever diminutive denomination you would like to use)

Rob

Ps Most of the rest can be figured out.. tools/JCL can be downloaded



On Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 19:58 Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> I've been able to be productive on the first day for things that didn't
> require institutional knowledge, but I've never picked up all of the non
> technical things anywhere near that quickly. I've also never taken as long
> as 6 months. But if the installation is a real mare's nest, all bets are
> off. YMMV.
>
> In general, I can learn a new language or a new OS more quickly than a new
> shop. Search for "dusty card deck".
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Mark Zelden [m...@mzelden.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 6:35 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed
> on a new environment?
>
> Wow!  I think I'm pretty good and I would never say "1 day".   Even back
> when I was consulting
> full time at different small-ish clients it normally took a few days to
> get into the groove and figure out
> the local environment.  And that's with bringing all my own tools to help
> figure things out
> because they are rarely documented well as someone wrote. Even if things
> are documented,
> each site has naming conventions, processes and procedures that are
> unique. Figuring out and
> learning all the red tape takes longer than one day!  Back at that time I
> did a lot of jumping
> around to different clients there were usually local sysprogs around and
> they didn't want to
> help a consultant anyway.  So someone helping / volunteering information
> would make it a
> bit easier.  I still run into that today with people that think it is job
> security to share information
> or purposely don't document something.  I always felt it was my duty and
> it also let me
> move onto other things if someone could do what I was doing easy enough
> with proper
> documentation.
>
> Today, I work in an environment with 8 sysplexes, 30 LPARs, different
> standards for things
> in different sysplexes.  I've often wondered how long it would take a good
> experienced
> sysprog to be productive in it.  Not a "superstar".   What I deal with is
> "experienced"
> off shore resources that typically have 6-8 years of z/OS system
> programming and
> even with a ton of documentation about everything they still aren't
> productive at all
> for 6 months and it takes another 6 months before they're doing real
> work.  I'm not
> talking about being able to do parmlib APF and LNKLST updates.  I'm
> referring to
> being able to install, configure and roll out software upgrades (not just
> installing
> PTFs) across a large complex environment without breaking something. And
> hardware?  Forget it... they don't have a clue.
>
> And my comments above refer to "OS" system programming.  Other areas like
> CICS, DB2, MQ, Network have similar challenges but the local learning
> curve is
> probably half or less than half.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
> --
> Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS
> ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
> mailto:m...@mzelden.com
> Mark's MVS Utilities:
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

I've been able to be productive on the first day for things that didn't require 
institutional knowledge, but I've never picked up all of the non technical 
things anywhere near that quickly. I've also never taken as long as 6 months. 
But if the installation is a real mare's nest, all bets are off. YMMV.

In general, I can learn a new language or a new OS more quickly than a new 
shop. Search for "dusty card deck".


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Mark Zelden [m...@mzelden.com]
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2023 6:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a 
new environment?

Wow!  I think I'm pretty good and I would never say "1 day".   Even back when I 
was consulting
full time at different small-ish clients it normally took a few days to get 
into the groove and figure out
the local environment.  And that's with bringing all my own tools to help 
figure things out
because they are rarely documented well as someone wrote. Even if things are 
documented,
each site has naming conventions, processes and procedures that are unique. 
Figuring out and
learning all the red tape takes longer than one day!  Back at that time I did a 
lot of jumping
around to different clients there were usually local sysprogs around and they 
didn't want to
help a consultant anyway.  So someone helping / volunteering information would 
make it a
bit easier.  I still run into that today with people that think it is job 
security to share information
or purposely don't document something.  I always felt it was my duty and it 
also let me
move onto other things if someone could do what I was doing easy enough with 
proper
documentation.

Today, I work in an environment with 8 sysplexes, 30 LPARs, different standards 
for things
in different sysplexes.  I've often wondered how long it would take a good 
experienced
sysprog to be productive in it.  Not a "superstar".   What I deal with is 
"experienced"
off shore resources that typically have 6-8 years of z/OS system programming and
even with a ton of documentation about everything they still aren't productive 
at all
for 6 months and it takes another 6 months before they're doing real work.  I'm 
not
talking about being able to do parmlib APF and LNKLST updates.  I'm referring to
being able to install, configure and roll out software upgrades (not just 
installing
PTFs) across a large complex environment without breaking something. And
hardware?  Forget it... they don't have a clue.

And my comments above refer to "OS" system programming.  Other areas like
CICS, DB2, MQ, Network have similar challenges but the local learning curve is
probably half or less than half.

Regards,

Mark
--
Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS
ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
mailto:m...@mzelden.com
Mark's MVS Utilities: 
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1omHWGxIkiiMSX-BcfoSVGoO99e23DSy9x98OyPh1DcTN24ve7mVeOQFWQh40PrhekHuuLemMeR8pdcoGO6Yl3H-aB7nZwjs3UCaGGdQZVrrkl8lNHNamcjrCmT63aAiAmZ34T38nQOJLiKfGaovT5DK8alcAfVBFYQi9Wn3WTRuIJtnXQ0qKdyMqjK3wBl7DmMQobkelwp9CsYIGSPKbPC_mrMNigfarMjjFiukLOseNsCcktKRnrYOCLTktEWtF3As35enhjqkzaSZgEDtd1cIlFk2SiHree05AV71zd-K2t61IfzjzntxcTgqAT-QAeZb1wJFcOpC0Y17TieYjp0OFjCliG7eJgVfZpeDSCQ6HnvkgeP17AjsQ-UfE6x8H-617Bbdqxu5mrYoDVcBnISVjjM5RQ11StSarp-qGgw4/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzelden.com%2Fmvsutil.html

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Laurence Chiu]

That indeed is the crux of the matter. When we were advised by the
incumbent outsourcing the backlog of work that is urgent would take so long
to deliver we suggested we could add additional staff. To which the
response was it would take at least 6 months for even an experienced
systems programmer to come up to speed to be productive and that is what I
am questioning.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2023, 3:44 AM Paul Gorlinsky  wrote:

> 
>
> If the vendor is claiming 6 months ... look elsewhere ... IMHO
>
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Brian Westerman]

I think you guys are mixing up being productive after the first day with being 
able to take everything over and run the site by yourself.  And remember this 
isn't a test, it's just asking for our personal opinions of our personal 
experience.  There are all types an levels of systems programmers, just like 
any other profession.  

No one should take anyone else'[s opinions for anything other than the face 
value of being their opinion.  I really hate getting all the personal flaming 
email from people who seem to think that I have no business giving my opinion 
because I have "an unfair advantage".  I'm not sure I even understand the 
unfairness but I certainly don't appreciate the personal email if all you are 
going to do is whine and complain about my opinion.  It's not like I'm not 
going to have an opinion, and whether you agree with me or not is totally 
irrelevant (to me).

My personal opinion was, and still is, that an "experienced" systems programmer 
should have zero problems being productive after or even during that first day. 
 To be able to manage the entire site could take a while, but that wasn't what 
was originally asked.  I also personally don't believe that you hire a senior 
systems programmer to spend months training them, that's what junior people are 
for.

My opinion again is that taking 6 months to come up to speed, or even 2 months 
it totally outrageous to me.  Are there things that you won't know about after 
the first day or so, of course, but they should be limited to what might be 
archaic (or seem to be archaic) local procedures, not just "being" a systems 
programmer. 

I know a lot of systems programmers and some are very, very good, and would be 
productive even quicker than I would,  But some are quite bad, and no amount of 
time will make then good.

So, in the end, this was an opinion question, there is no "right" or "wrong" 
answer to someone honest opinion, but apparently some of you don't want others 
to have an opinion unless it is the same one you have.  I can live with that, 
just don't send me personal email about it.

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Colin Paice]

As an MQ developer, I was at a customer who was interviewing contractors
for a couple of MQ positions.  We asked a couple of good meaty open ended
questions, and listened to how they answered it.  Some guys had good
qualifications but little experience and tried blagging their way through.
Some others did not have all the qualifications but made some good attempts
at the answers.  The  later group were hired.
Colin

On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 at 14:44, Paul Gorlinsky  wrote:

> As a z/VM sysprog independant contractor for 30+ years, IMHO this is not a
> question that can be definitively answered.
>
> The term sysprog has an extremely wide set of standards. For example, a
> sysprog from blue's GS division is typically an installer, customizer, data
> gatherer, etc. only for zOS and not TCPIP, VTAM, DB2, IMS, CICS, etc.
> Whereas, as an independent contracting sysprog I learned and managed
> everything zOS, including communications, security, TP monitors, data
> bases, etc.
>
> Typically, I take about a day to peak at the running system and how it is
> implemented, then start in on servicing the punch list from the customer.
> But keep in mind, that I started on MVT and still work all the way thru
> z/OS 2.5 ( as well as z/VM and z/VSE )...
>
> In other words, some sysprogs are trained to be part of a team of people
> to manage the environment and others are lone wolfs ... each person is
> unique in their learned abilities and their ability to learn...
>
> If the vendor is claiming 6 months ... look elsewhere ... IMHO
>
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Paul Gorlinsky]

make that z/VM, z/VSE, z/OS systems programmer ... BTW I also managed Dr. 
Amdahl's last CPU development effort at Andor Systems and I developed and 
market a FICON Virtual Tape Server ...

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Paul Gorlinsky]

As a z/VM sysprog independant contractor for 30+ years, IMHO this is not a 
question that can be definitively answered. 

The term sysprog has an extremely wide set of standards. For example, a sysprog 
from blue's GS division is typically an installer, customizer, data gatherer, 
etc. only for zOS and not TCPIP, VTAM, DB2, IMS, CICS, etc. Whereas, as an 
independent contracting sysprog I learned and managed everything zOS, including 
communications, security, TP monitors, data bases, etc. 

Typically, I take about a day to peak at the running system and how it is 
implemented, then start in on servicing the punch list from the customer. But 
keep in mind, that I started on MVT and still work all the way thru z/OS 2.5 ( 
as well as z/VM and z/VSE )...

In other words, some sysprogs are trained to be part of a team of people to 
manage the environment and others are lone wolfs ... each person is unique in 
their learned abilities and their ability to learn... 

If the vendor is claiming 6 months ... look elsewhere ... IMHO

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Tom Brennan]

That's about what I would say too - at least a month.  Of course it's 
easy to figure out things like TMS vs. RMM, RACF vs. TSS, etc. and the 
different naming conventions, install methods, and where's the CSI.  But 
what about the overall view, like how do they do their DR tests, what 
prod freeze dates are undocumented, what change control methods are 
needed, which LPARs do what, etc.  That all takes time and if you don't 
know, you can appear pretty green.


But I admit there are people who can swap jobs at a moment's notice and 
pick things up with a few questions.  Those are probably the best of the 
bunch.  For example, I once heard Gilbert Saint-flour wrote SHOWMVS to 
give him a quick overview of a site he just started working at - all the 
basics in one report.


On 2/17/2023 4:08 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:

At least a month depending on what is falling in your court. And assuming that 
zOSMF is functional. Are products current. I just depends

Sent from my iPhone

No one said I could type with one thumb


On Feb 17, 2023, at 17:35, Mark Zelden  wrote:

Wow!  I think I'm pretty good and I would never say "1 day".   Even back when 
I was consulting
full time at different small-ish clients it normally took a few days to get 
into the groove and figure out
the local environment.  And that's with bringing all my own tools to help 
figure things out
because they are rarely documented well as someone wrote. Even if things are 
documented,
each site has naming conventions, processes and procedures that are unique. 
Figuring out and
learning all the red tape takes longer than one day!  Back at that time I did a 
lot of jumping
around to different clients there were usually local sysprogs around and they 
didn't want to
help a consultant anyway.  So someone helping / volunteering information would 
make it a
bit easier.  I still run into that today with people that think it is job 
security to share information
or purposely don't document something.  I always felt it was my duty and it 
also let me
move onto other things if someone could do what I was doing easy enough with 
proper
documentation.

Today, I work in an environment with 8 sysplexes, 30 LPARs, different standards 
for things
in different sysplexes.  I've often wondered how long it would take a good 
experienced
sysprog to be productive in it.  Not a "superstar".   What I deal with is 
"experienced"
off shore resources that typically have 6-8 years of z/OS system programming and
even with a ton of documentation about everything they still aren't productive 
at all
for 6 months and it takes another 6 months before they're doing real work.  I'm 
not
talking about being able to do parmlib APF and LNKLST updates.  I'm referring to
being able to install, configure and roll out software upgrades (not just 
installing
PTFs) across a large complex environment without breaking something. And
hardware?  Forget it... they don't have a clue.

And my comments above refer to "OS" system programming.  Other areas like
CICS, DB2, MQ, Network have similar challenges but the local learning curve is
probably half or less than half.

Regards,

Mark
--
Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS
ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
mailto:m...@mzelden.com
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Steve Beaver]

At least a month depending on what is falling in your court. And assuming that 
zOSMF is functional. Are products current. I just depends 

Sent from my iPhone

No one said I could type with one thumb 

> On Feb 17, 2023, at 17:35, Mark Zelden  wrote:
> 
> Wow!  I think I'm pretty good and I would never say "1 day".   Even back 
> when I was consulting
> full time at different small-ish clients it normally took a few days to get 
> into the groove and figure out
> the local environment.  And that's with bringing all my own tools to help 
> figure things out
> because they are rarely documented well as someone wrote. Even if things are 
> documented,
> each site has naming conventions, processes and procedures that are unique. 
> Figuring out and
> learning all the red tape takes longer than one day!  Back at that time I did 
> a lot of jumping
> around to different clients there were usually local sysprogs around and they 
> didn't want to
> help a consultant anyway.  So someone helping / volunteering information 
> would make it a 
> bit easier.  I still run into that today with people that think it is job 
> security to share information
> or purposely don't document something.  I always felt it was my duty and it 
> also let me
> move onto other things if someone could do what I was doing easy enough with 
> proper
> documentation.   
> 
> Today, I work in an environment with 8 sysplexes, 30 LPARs, different 
> standards for things
> in different sysplexes.  I've often wondered how long it would take a good 
> experienced
> sysprog to be productive in it.  Not a "superstar".   What I deal with is 
> "experienced"
> off shore resources that typically have 6-8 years of z/OS system programming 
> and 
> even with a ton of documentation about everything they still aren't 
> productive at all 
> for 6 months and it takes another 6 months before they're doing real work.  
> I'm not
> talking about being able to do parmlib APF and LNKLST updates.  I'm referring 
> to
> being able to install, configure and roll out software upgrades (not just 
> installing
> PTFs) across a large complex environment without breaking something. And 
> hardware?  Forget it... they don't have a clue.
> 
> And my comments above refer to "OS" system programming.  Other areas like
> CICS, DB2, MQ, Network have similar challenges but the local learning curve is
> probably half or less than half.  
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mark
> --
> Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS
> ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
> mailto:m...@mzelden.com
> Mark's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html
> 
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Mark Zelden]

Wow!  I think I'm pretty good and I would never say "1 day".   Even back when I 
was consulting
full time at different small-ish clients it normally took a few days to get 
into the groove and figure out
the local environment.  And that's with bringing all my own tools to help 
figure things out
because they are rarely documented well as someone wrote. Even if things are 
documented,
each site has naming conventions, processes and procedures that are unique. 
Figuring out and
learning all the red tape takes longer than one day!  Back at that time I did a 
lot of jumping
around to different clients there were usually local sysprogs around and they 
didn't want to
help a consultant anyway.  So someone helping / volunteering information would 
make it a 
bit easier.  I still run into that today with people that think it is job 
security to share information
or purposely don't document something.  I always felt it was my duty and it 
also let me
move onto other things if someone could do what I was doing easy enough with 
proper
documentation.   

Today, I work in an environment with 8 sysplexes, 30 LPARs, different standards 
for things
in different sysplexes.  I've often wondered how long it would take a good 
experienced
sysprog to be productive in it.  Not a "superstar".   What I deal with is 
"experienced"
off shore resources that typically have 6-8 years of z/OS system programming 
and 
even with a ton of documentation about everything they still aren't productive 
at all 
for 6 months and it takes another 6 months before they're doing real work.  I'm 
not
talking about being able to do parmlib APF and LNKLST updates.  I'm referring to
being able to install, configure and roll out software upgrades (not just 
installing
PTFs) across a large complex environment without breaking something. And 
hardware?  Forget it... they don't have a clue.

And my comments above refer to "OS" system programming.  Other areas like
CICS, DB2, MQ, Network have similar challenges but the local learning curve is
probably half or less than half.  

Regards,

Mark
--
Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS
ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
mailto:m...@mzelden.com
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Laurence Chiu]

Thanks for the input. I raised the question because the outsourcer who
would do this work said adding more staff would not help because it would
take up to 6 months to know the environment.  This seemed excessive to me.
I would think the string is about 1 day to maybe 2 months long. Even the
longest piece is acceptable to us and it's likely to be shorter.

I am an ex sysprog myself albeit in IMS and DB2 and know SMPE and used to
code exits in Assembler. It's been a few years but I am sure if given the
chance I could be productive in a month. After all, once you have installed
and configured one major sub-system, it is not that hard to work on a
different one. And given the work that is required is on the z/OS side,
some HMC work (creating LPARs etc.) all an experienced z/OS person needs is
a TSO logon, documentation on the environment and a buddy to ask questions
about the environment and away they go.

No subsystems need to be installed - they all exist now. And the Sysplex
partner does not need to be built from scratch. Just clone the SYSRES
volume for the primary LPAR,, alter SYS1.PARMLIB etc. and go from there
(missing a few things here but as they used to say in the maths exercises
answers section, the rest is left as an exercise for the reader :-)  )

On Fri, Feb 17, 2023 at 9:19 PM Gibney, Dave <
03b5261cfd78-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> With all due respect, and I do have great respect for you Brian, you do
> have a great deal of experience in this kind of work. So, a day or so after
> you get access (and I assume you've acquired a number of tools) it is
> entirely possible that you would be up to speed.
> I do agree with you that the first hurdle would how rapidly the new guy
> gets and what level of access they are allowed.
>
> I think there are several other variables as to how rapidly a given newly
> hired yet experienced sysprog learns the ropes at a new site. From what I
> have observed here on the list, sites vary quite a bit.
>
> Personally, I would need a little longer. But, I've only worked at the one
> site, even if it was for 40 years. The thing is, I've forgotten more than I
> know at any given time. Almost always had to move to the next issue before
> any true expertise settled in. It was usually easier the next time a task
> or need rolled around, but since it was my site, I knew where I’d last left
> the tools and bread crumbs
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Brian Westerman
> > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2023 9:52 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed
> > on a new environment?
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> >
> > I completely agree with one day.  You should be productive by then, as
> for
> > learning all of the sites naming conventions, procedures and standards,
> you
> > would pick them up as you go.  I have found that by the end of the first
> > week, I typically know more about how things are "supposed" to be
> > managed than the people that are currently employed there. :)
> >
> > That assumes that everyone knows you are coming in and is prepared for
> > you to be there.  Things like getting an ID and a place to sit and
> instructions
> > for VPN's and connections.  Those things typically should be done before
> > your first day at the site, but unfortunately it rarely happens that
> way.  So I
> > should say that it's about a day after you can actually log onto the
> system.
> >
> > Brian
> >
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Colin Paice]

I would allow a day to get physical  access organised, and userid set up.
Setting up a new sysplex. is the piece of string.
There is a big difference between  "getting it ipled", to "ready for users."
This involves setting up /copying RACF profiles, setting up SMS rules,
backup procedures etc
The RACF skills and SMS skills are different to setting up the sysplex,  so
your new sysprog may not have these skills.
Many sysprogs can maintain RACF and SMS once set up, but it is harder to
set these up for production use.

You may just move the bottleneck from z/OS sysprog to RACF/SMS/Networking
skills.

Colin


On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 at 00:37, Laurence Chiu  wrote:

> This is probably a how long is a piece of string question but I said I
> would ask management anyway.
>
> Environment
>
> z/OS (of course)
> Z13's and Z15's
> Two sites with DWDM connectivity.
> DS8K SANs and TS77XX VTS
> Parallel Sysplex
>
> DWDM between the sites, Metro Mirror, HyperSwap, VTS grid.
>
> We are running into resource constraints in delivering an
> aggressive development plan which includes'
> - a new Sysplex for an independent business unit
> - moving data off an existing VTS grid and creating a whole new one
> which will require having an existing VTS having its data lost
> - Repopulating the VTS across the DWDM using COPYCAT
> - installing new VTS
> - possibly new DS8K and later one a new Z15
>
> Assuming we could find suitably qualified z/OS and storage sysprogs, given
> decent documentation etc. how long would somebody like that take to be
> productive and ease the workload?
>
> As a secondary  question, are there companies who specialise in z/OS
> sysprog services as body shops? And I don't mean the usual suspects :-)
>
> Thanks
>
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Gibney, Dave]

With all due respect, and I do have great respect for you Brian, you do have a 
great deal of experience in this kind of work. So, a day or so after you get 
access (and I assume you've acquired a number of tools) it is entirely possible 
that you would be up to speed.
I do agree with you that the first hurdle would how rapidly the new guy gets 
and what level of access they are allowed.

I think there are several other variables as to how rapidly a given newly hired 
yet experienced sysprog learns the ropes at a new site. From what I have 
observed here on the list, sites vary quite a bit. 

Personally, I would need a little longer. But, I've only worked at the one 
site, even if it was for 40 years. The thing is, I've forgotten more than I 
know at any given time. Almost always had to move to the next issue before any 
true expertise settled in. It was usually easier the next time a task or need 
rolled around, but since it was my site, I knew where I’d last left the tools 
and bread crumbs

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Brian Westerman
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2023 9:52 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed
> on a new environment?
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> I completely agree with one day.  You should be productive by then, as for
> learning all of the sites naming conventions, procedures and standards, you
> would pick them up as you go.  I have found that by the end of the first
> week, I typically know more about how things are "supposed" to be
> managed than the people that are currently employed there. :)
> 
> That assumes that everyone knows you are coming in and is prepared for
> you to be there.  Things like getting an ID and a place to sit and 
> instructions
> for VPN's and connections.  Those things typically should be done before
> your first day at the site, but unfortunately it rarely happens that way.  So 
> I
> should say that it's about a day after you can actually log onto the system.
> 
> Brian
> 
> --
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Laurence Chiu]

That might be a bit optimistic.  There would be an existing sysprog team
who are just overworked and hopefully they can spend time bringing up the
newcomer to speed. No SMPE required - this is all infrastructure stuff like
IOCDS, networking etc., fibre channel configuration etc.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2023 at 1:44 PM Beverly Caldwell 
wrote:

> One day is usually sufficient. Provided local management doesn't get in the
> way and has everything ready for the incoming person.
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2023, 5:37 PM Laurence Chiu  wrote:
>
> > This is probably a how long is a piece of string question but I said I
> > would ask management anyway.
> >
> > Environment
> >
> > z/OS (of course)
> > Z13's and Z15's
> > Two sites with DWDM connectivity.
> > DS8K SANs and TS77XX VTS
> > Parallel Sysplex
> >
> > DWDM between the sites, Metro Mirror, HyperSwap, VTS grid.
> >
> > We are running into resource constraints in delivering an
> > aggressive development plan which includes'
> > - a new Sysplex for an independent business unit
> > - moving data off an existing VTS grid and creating a whole new one
> > which will require having an existing VTS having its data lost
> > - Repopulating the VTS across the DWDM using COPYCAT
> > - installing new VTS
> > - possibly new DS8K and later one a new Z15
> >
> > Assuming we could find suitably qualified z/OS and storage sysprogs,
> given
> > decent documentation etc. how long would somebody like that take to be
> > productive and ease the workload?
> >
> > As a secondary  question, are there companies who specialise in z/OS
> > sysprog services as body shops? And I don't mean the usual suspects :-)
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
>
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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Brian Westerman]

I completely agree with one day.  You should be productive by then, as for 
learning all of the sites naming conventions, procedures and standards, you 
would pick them up as you go.  I have found that by the end of the first week, 
I typically know more about how things are "supposed" to be managed than the 
people that are currently employed there. :)

That assumes that everyone knows you are coming in and is prepared for you to 
be there.  Things like getting an ID and a place to sit and instructions for 
VPN's and connections.  Those things typically should be done before your first 
day at the site, but unfortunately it rarely happens that way.  So I should say 
that it's about a day after you can actually log onto the system.

Brian

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Seymour J Metz]

My experience is that corporate culture, naming conventions, process flow, 
etc., are usually not well documented. I would expect delays from learning 
nontechnical aspects of the environment.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Laurence Chiu [lch...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2023 7:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new 
environment?

This is probably a how long is a piece of string question but I said I
would ask management anyway.

Environment

z/OS (of course)
Z13's and Z15's
Two sites with DWDM connectivity.
DS8K SANs and TS77XX VTS
Parallel Sysplex

DWDM between the sites, Metro Mirror, HyperSwap, VTS grid.

We are running into resource constraints in delivering an
aggressive development plan which includes'
- a new Sysplex for an independent business unit
- moving data off an existing VTS grid and creating a whole new one
which will require having an existing VTS having its data lost
- Repopulating the VTS across the DWDM using COPYCAT
- installing new VTS
- possibly new DS8K and later one a new Z15

Assuming we could find suitably qualified z/OS and storage sysprogs, given
decent documentation etc. how long would somebody like that take to be
productive and ease the workload?

As a secondary  question, are there companies who specialise in z/OS
sysprog services as body shops? And I don't mean the usual suspects :-)

Thanks

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Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?

[Beverly Caldwell]

One day is usually sufficient. Provided local management doesn't get in the
way and has everything ready for the incoming person.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2023, 5:37 PM Laurence Chiu  wrote:

> This is probably a how long is a piece of string question but I said I
> would ask management anyway.
>
> Environment
>
> z/OS (of course)
> Z13's and Z15's
> Two sites with DWDM connectivity.
> DS8K SANs and TS77XX VTS
> Parallel Sysplex
>
> DWDM between the sites, Metro Mirror, HyperSwap, VTS grid.
>
> We are running into resource constraints in delivering an
> aggressive development plan which includes'
> - a new Sysplex for an independent business unit
> - moving data off an existing VTS grid and creating a whole new one
> which will require having an existing VTS having its data lost
> - Repopulating the VTS across the DWDM using COPYCAT
> - installing new VTS
> - possibly new DS8K and later one a new Z15
>
> Assuming we could find suitably qualified z/OS and storage sysprogs, given
> decent documentation etc. how long would somebody like that take to be
> productive and ease the workload?
>
> As a secondary  question, are there companies who specialise in z/OS
> sysprog services as body shops? And I don't mean the usual suspects :-)
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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