Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
Is there nay management, policy or procedure continuity from ITS to zCloud? Can anybody from IBM comment on the contracts, if any, between IBM and 3rd party software vendors in support of zCloud? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Art Gutowski [arthur.gutow...@gm.com] Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 2:58 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ? I wouldn't be. Maybe no problem with licensing, but support is another matter. If it's not their product, how would they know? They don't license other ISV products internally, so all learning is in the field, or "handled" by sub-contracting out the work (as we often did in ITS), or by buying out the customer's IT staff (as they often did in Outsourcing). If that didn't work, or if it broke down, due to repeated downsizing and/or waves of voluntary departures, IBM then "dealt with it" by attempting to convert off of ISVs to their own "equivalents" (FSVO, equivalents). I lost count of how many times I asked, "the marketing rep told you it would do what, exactly?" Perhaps things have improved in the 15 years since I departed, but perhaps not, given that ITS has since been disbanded, outsourcing has now been spun off, and some marketing reps are still prone to hyperbole. Art Gutowski On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:17:36 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >Yes, like any other outsourcing and time-sharing contract, you need to define >your requirements before committing to it, and that includes license issues. >It's your responsibility to include what you need in the contract, but I would >be very surprised if IBM was unable to deal with 3rd party software. > >-- >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
We have our products in IBM zCloud environments... On 6/3/2021 11:58 AM, Art Gutowski wrote: I wouldn't be. Maybe no problem with licensing, but support is another matter. If it's not their product, how would they know? They don't license other ISV products internally, so all learning is in the field, or "handled" by sub-contracting out the work (as we often did in ITS), or by buying out the customer's IT staff (as they often did in Outsourcing). If that didn't work, or if it broke down, due to repeated downsizing and/or waves of voluntary departures, IBM then "dealt with it" by attempting to convert off of ISVs to their own "equivalents" (FSVO, equivalents). I lost count of how many times I asked, "the marketing rep told you it would do what, exactly?" Perhaps things have improved in the 15 years since I departed, but perhaps not, given that ITS has since been disbanded, outsourcing has now been spun off, and some marketing reps are still prone to hyperbole. Art Gutowski On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:17:36 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: Yes, like any other outsourcing and time-sharing contract, you need to define your requirements before committing to it, and that includes license issues. It's your responsibility to include what you need in the contract, but I would be very surprised if IBM was unable to deal with 3rd party software. -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
I wouldn't be. Maybe no problem with licensing, but support is another matter. If it's not their product, how would they know? They don't license other ISV products internally, so all learning is in the field, or "handled" by sub-contracting out the work (as we often did in ITS), or by buying out the customer's IT staff (as they often did in Outsourcing). If that didn't work, or if it broke down, due to repeated downsizing and/or waves of voluntary departures, IBM then "dealt with it" by attempting to convert off of ISVs to their own "equivalents" (FSVO, equivalents). I lost count of how many times I asked, "the marketing rep told you it would do what, exactly?" Perhaps things have improved in the 15 years since I departed, but perhaps not, given that ITS has since been disbanded, outsourcing has now been spun off, and some marketing reps are still prone to hyperbole. Art Gutowski On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:17:36 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >Yes, like any other outsourcing and time-sharing contract, you need to define >your requirements before committing to it, and that includes license issues. >It's your responsibility to include what you need in the contract, but I would >be very surprised if IBM was unable to deal with 3rd party software. > >-- >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
There are also different zCloud offerings. IBM Hyper Protect Virtual Servers is much different than the traditional "your mess for less" hosting of your environment (whether it's on your own or a shared box). On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 8:17 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > Yes, like any other outsourcing and time-sharing contract, you need to > define your requirements before committing to it, and that includes license > issues. It's your responsibility to include what you need in the contract, > but I would be very surprised if IBM was unable to deal with 3rd party > software. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of Keith Gooding [034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 6:36 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ? > > One of my reasons for asking about zCloud here was that I have been asked > (at second- or third-hand) whether an ISV product is “supported” on zCloud, > so there is clearly a case to answer. At first sight, if zCloud just means > transferring LPARs to an IBM-owned machine, the answer would be ‘yes’. But > there may be reasons why it would not be ‘supported’ - e.g. for licensing > reasons, because IBM do not have the expertise to manage it, because IBM > prefer to replace it with one of their owns products, etc. > > Another reason is that I found a reference to “zcloud environments” in IMS > v13 documentation in regards to what is now called “cloud provisioning” ie > using z/OSMF and possibly Z Cloud Broker) to create and manage middleware > environments “on demand” using templates etc provided by the middleware > developers. I now think that this use of the term “zcloud” here (or terms > such as “Z cloud”, Z/cloud” etc rather than “zCloud” ) may refer > generically to cloud services on Z rather than the “Managed Extended Cloud > Infrastructure as a Service(IaaS) for IBM Z (zCloud)” offering. > > There is still a nagging doubt that some ISV products may be required to > “play nicely” on zCloud, especially in environments where instead of > transferring an LPAR to zCloud a new z/OS system is created just for > development purposes so that modern development tools can be used. In that > case there could be a requirement for middleware to co-operate in the > automatic provisioning of test environments. > > At the risk of being contacted by an IBM salesperson I have attempted to > get in touch with a “zCloud” person for information. > > Keith Gooding > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 29 May 2021, at 15:13, Colin Paice wrote: > > > > I remember about 20+ years ago there was "dial a vm" from IBM for > > customers. By the time you had phoned up, given your credit card details > > it had created a second level system for you to play with. > > > > "We did it first on z" > > > > Colin > > > >> On Sat, 29 May 2021 at 12:45, Scott Chapman < > scott.chap...@epstrategies.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> I think one important distinction of cloud vs. outsourcing is the > >> ephemeral nature of the resources in cloud computing. I.E. the ability > to > >> start from zero, provision compute and storage resources of some type > >> (either manually or automatically in response to changing conditions) > and > >> then deprovision them similarly after using the resources for perhaps > mere > >> minutes or hours. The cost is determined by what you used for the > duration > >> you used it, typically billed to an interval of minutes or sometimes > even > >> seconds. And since it has on-ramp starting at zero infrastructure and > zero > >> cost, you can easily try out ideas at a cost of something you can put > on a > >> credit card. Infrastructure is charged in increments of pennies. And if > it > >> doesn't work out, you turn it off and your charges stop.* > >> > >> Last I knew, and I would like to be proven wrong, zCloud didn't embody > the > >> idea of "I want to play with z/OS for a few hours, stand up a z/OS image > >> with x CPU and y GB of disk and put it on my credit card". > >> > >> *-Remember: in the cloud, you pay for what you forgot to turn off. And > >> those pennies can add up shockingly fast in some cases! > >> > >> Scott Chapman > >> > >> -- > >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instruct
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
Yes, like any other outsourcing and time-sharing contract, you need to define your requirements before committing to it, and that includes license issues. It's your responsibility to include what you need in the contract, but I would be very surprised if IBM was unable to deal with 3rd party software. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Keith Gooding [034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 6:36 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ? One of my reasons for asking about zCloud here was that I have been asked (at second- or third-hand) whether an ISV product is “supported” on zCloud, so there is clearly a case to answer. At first sight, if zCloud just means transferring LPARs to an IBM-owned machine, the answer would be ‘yes’. But there may be reasons why it would not be ‘supported’ - e.g. for licensing reasons, because IBM do not have the expertise to manage it, because IBM prefer to replace it with one of their owns products, etc. Another reason is that I found a reference to “zcloud environments” in IMS v13 documentation in regards to what is now called “cloud provisioning” ie using z/OSMF and possibly Z Cloud Broker) to create and manage middleware environments “on demand” using templates etc provided by the middleware developers. I now think that this use of the term “zcloud” here (or terms such as “Z cloud”, Z/cloud” etc rather than “zCloud” ) may refer generically to cloud services on Z rather than the “Managed Extended Cloud Infrastructure as a Service(IaaS) for IBM Z (zCloud)” offering. There is still a nagging doubt that some ISV products may be required to “play nicely” on zCloud, especially in environments where instead of transferring an LPAR to zCloud a new z/OS system is created just for development purposes so that modern development tools can be used. In that case there could be a requirement for middleware to co-operate in the automatic provisioning of test environments. At the risk of being contacted by an IBM salesperson I have attempted to get in touch with a “zCloud” person for information. Keith Gooding Sent from my iPad > On 29 May 2021, at 15:13, Colin Paice wrote: > > I remember about 20+ years ago there was "dial a vm" from IBM for > customers. By the time you had phoned up, given your credit card details > it had created a second level system for you to play with. > > "We did it first on z" > > Colin > >> On Sat, 29 May 2021 at 12:45, Scott Chapman >> wrote: >> >> I think one important distinction of cloud vs. outsourcing is the >> ephemeral nature of the resources in cloud computing. I.E. the ability to >> start from zero, provision compute and storage resources of some type >> (either manually or automatically in response to changing conditions) and >> then deprovision them similarly after using the resources for perhaps mere >> minutes or hours. The cost is determined by what you used for the duration >> you used it, typically billed to an interval of minutes or sometimes even >> seconds. And since it has on-ramp starting at zero infrastructure and zero >> cost, you can easily try out ideas at a cost of something you can put on a >> credit card. Infrastructure is charged in increments of pennies. And if it >> doesn't work out, you turn it off and your charges stop.* >> >> Last I knew, and I would like to be proven wrong, zCloud didn't embody the >> idea of "I want to play with z/OS for a few hours, stand up a z/OS image >> with x CPU and y GB of disk and put it on my credit card". >> >> *-Remember: in the cloud, you pay for what you forgot to turn off. And >> those pennies can add up shockingly fast in some cases! >> >> Scott Chapman >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
I hope that you never go into farming. Livestock are expensive. Shooting a cow represents a significant loss. The only time a farmer kills a sick cow is when it's too expensive for the veterinarian to cure her. Otherwise you only kill your livestock when they are too old to be worth their keep or when they are of an appropriate age to sell for meat. So, in your analogy, what is the cow? Is it an instance of an image, or is it the assets that you have deployued in that instance? The former costs little to deploy, the latter may be the heart of your business. You may shoot a horse with a broken leg, but do you really want to throw away a broken IMS or TPF application? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Colin Paice [colinpai...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 7:01 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ? I remember a customer talk on something like "are your systems Pets or Cows?" If they are pets,they have names, and if they are ill - you nurtured them. If they are just cows, they have a number, not a name, if they are ill you shoot them. The customer then said they moved their systems from pets to cows. They create a new system on a sysres for all service on all products. Add it to the sysplex. Take down the oldest system and shoot it, This way they could do rapid deploy. I looked at z/OSMF deploy for quickly deploying a new MQ queue manager on z/OS.Good in theory, but you would not create an MQ very often. The z/OSMF deploy made the easy bits easier (creating datasets) - and left the hard bits to the end user (setting up RACF profiles, setting up SMS profiles, doing backups of key resources, setting up monitoring of security violations, integrating it with everything else.) I think setting up CICS through z/OSMF was better. Instead of calling things cloud it would be good if people called it 1. "where do you want to run your stuff" 2. "How quickly do you want to deploy it". Or the Deploy Wedge. Do you want it to be fast - and no support - (the small end of the wedge) or do you want all the bells, whistles,monitoring and backups - the fat end of the wedge. Colin On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 11:37, Keith Gooding < 034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > One of my reasons for asking about zCloud here was that I have been asked > (at second- or third-hand) whether an ISV product is “supported” on zCloud, > so there is clearly a case to answer. At first sight, if zCloud just means > transferring LPARs to an IBM-owned machine, the answer would be ‘yes’. But > there may be reasons why it would not be ‘supported’ - e.g. for licensing > reasons, because IBM do not have the expertise to manage it, because IBM > prefer to replace it with one of their owns products, etc. > > Another reason is that I found a reference to “zcloud environments” in IMS > v13 documentation in regards to what is now called “cloud provisioning” ie > using z/OSMF and possibly Z Cloud Broker) to create and manage middleware > environments “on demand” using templates etc provided by the middleware > developers. I now think that this use of the term “zcloud” here (or terms > such as “Z cloud”, Z/cloud” etc rather than “zCloud” ) may refer > generically to cloud services on Z rather than the “Managed Extended Cloud > Infrastructure as a Service(IaaS) for IBM Z (zCloud)” offering. > > There is still a nagging doubt that some ISV products may be required to > “play nicely” on zCloud, especially in environments where instead of > transferring an LPAR to zCloud a new z/OS system is created just for > development purposes so that modern development tools can be used. In that > case there could be a requirement for middleware to co-operate in the > automatic provisioning of test environments. > > At the risk of being contacted by an IBM salesperson I have attempted to > get in touch with a “zCloud” person for information. > > Keith Gooding > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 29 May 2021, at 15:13, Colin Paice wrote: > > > > I remember about 20+ years ago there was "dial a vm" from IBM for > > customers. By the time you had phoned up, given your credit card details > > it had created a second level system for you to play with. > > > > "We did it first on z" > > > > Colin > > > >> On Sat, 29 May 2021 at 12:45, Scott Chapman < > scott.chap...@epstrategies.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> I think one important distinction of cloud vs. outsourcing is the > >> ephemeral nature of the resources in cloud computing. I.E. the ability > to > >> sta
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
Classification: Confidential On the subject of rapid deployment, With few tweaks and exploitations of standard z/OS facilities, I can deploy a shared IMS (or CICS, MQ,... ) subsystem in about the recycle time of the subsystem + 5 minutes). I even have the capability of updating one LPAR without affecting others. It's all in the packaging. Z/OS. Z/OS itself uses a minor variation of the process. Couple the above packaging with a "master image", and I don't need z/OS MF for software deployment. TANSTAAFL. It does cost me some DASD, but that's the price I am willing to pay. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Colin Paice Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 6:01 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ? [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] I remember a customer talk on something like "are your systems Pets or Cows?" If they are pets,they have names, and if they are ill - you nurtured them. If they are just cows, they have a number, not a name, if they are ill you shoot them. The customer then said they moved their systems from pets to cows. They create a new system on a sysres for all service on all products. Add it to the sysplex. Take down the oldest system and shoot it, This way they could do rapid deploy. I looked at z/OSMF deploy for quickly deploying a new MQ queue manager on z/OS.Good in theory, but you would not create an MQ very often. The z/OSMF deploy made the easy bits easier (creating datasets) - and left the hard bits to the end user (setting up RACF profiles, setting up SMS profiles, doing backups of key resources, setting up monitoring of security violations, integrating it with everything else.) I think setting up CICS through z/OSMF was better. Instead of calling things cloud it would be good if people called it 1. "where do you want to run your stuff" 2. "How quickly do you want to deploy it". Or the Deploy Wedge. Do you want it to be fast - and no support - (the small end of the wedge) or do you want all the bells, whistles,monitoring and backups - the fat end of the wedge. Colin On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 11:37, Keith Gooding < 034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > One of my reasons for asking about zCloud here was that I have been > asked (at second- or third-hand) whether an ISV product is “supported” > on zCloud, so there is clearly a case to answer. At first sight, if > zCloud just means transferring LPARs to an IBM-owned machine, the > answer would be ‘yes’. But there may be reasons why it would not be > ‘supported’ - e.g. for licensing reasons, because IBM do not have the > expertise to manage it, because IBM prefer to replace it with one of their > owns products, etc. > > Another reason is that I found a reference to “zcloud environments” in > IMS > v13 documentation in regards to what is now called “cloud > provisioning” ie using z/OSMF and possibly Z Cloud Broker) to create > and manage middleware environments “on demand” using templates etc > provided by the middleware developers. I now think that this use of > the term “zcloud” here (or terms such as “Z cloud”, Z/cloud” etc > rather than “zCloud” ) may refer generically to cloud services on Z > rather than the “Managed Extended Cloud Infrastructure as a Service(IaaS) for > IBM Z (zCloud)” offering. > > There is still a nagging doubt that some ISV products may be required > to “play nicely” on zCloud, especially in environments where instead > of transferring an LPAR to zCloud a new z/OS system is created just > for development purposes so that modern development tools can be used. > In that case there could be a requirement for middleware to co-operate > in the automatic provisioning of test environments. > > At the risk of being contacted by an IBM salesperson I have attempted > to get in touch with a “zCloud” person for information. > > Keith Gooding > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 29 May 2021, at 15:13, Colin Paice wrote: > > > > I remember about 20+ years ago there was "dial a vm" from IBM for > > customers. By the time you had phoned up, given your credit card > > details it had created a second level system for you to play with. > > > > "We did it first on z" > > > > Colin > > > >> On Sat, 29 May 2021 at 12:45, Scott Chapman < > scott.chap...@epstrategies.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> I think one important distinction of cloud vs. outsourcing is the > >> ephemeral nature of the resources in cloud computing. I.E.
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
I remember a customer talk on something like "are your systems Pets or Cows?" If they are pets,they have names, and if they are ill - you nurtured them. If they are just cows, they have a number, not a name, if they are ill you shoot them. The customer then said they moved their systems from pets to cows. They create a new system on a sysres for all service on all products. Add it to the sysplex. Take down the oldest system and shoot it, This way they could do rapid deploy. I looked at z/OSMF deploy for quickly deploying a new MQ queue manager on z/OS.Good in theory, but you would not create an MQ very often. The z/OSMF deploy made the easy bits easier (creating datasets) - and left the hard bits to the end user (setting up RACF profiles, setting up SMS profiles, doing backups of key resources, setting up monitoring of security violations, integrating it with everything else.) I think setting up CICS through z/OSMF was better. Instead of calling things cloud it would be good if people called it 1. "where do you want to run your stuff" 2. "How quickly do you want to deploy it". Or the Deploy Wedge. Do you want it to be fast - and no support - (the small end of the wedge) or do you want all the bells, whistles,monitoring and backups - the fat end of the wedge. Colin On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 11:37, Keith Gooding < 034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > One of my reasons for asking about zCloud here was that I have been asked > (at second- or third-hand) whether an ISV product is “supported” on zCloud, > so there is clearly a case to answer. At first sight, if zCloud just means > transferring LPARs to an IBM-owned machine, the answer would be ‘yes’. But > there may be reasons why it would not be ‘supported’ - e.g. for licensing > reasons, because IBM do not have the expertise to manage it, because IBM > prefer to replace it with one of their owns products, etc. > > Another reason is that I found a reference to “zcloud environments” in IMS > v13 documentation in regards to what is now called “cloud provisioning” ie > using z/OSMF and possibly Z Cloud Broker) to create and manage middleware > environments “on demand” using templates etc provided by the middleware > developers. I now think that this use of the term “zcloud” here (or terms > such as “Z cloud”, Z/cloud” etc rather than “zCloud” ) may refer > generically to cloud services on Z rather than the “Managed Extended Cloud > Infrastructure as a Service(IaaS) for IBM Z (zCloud)” offering. > > There is still a nagging doubt that some ISV products may be required to > “play nicely” on zCloud, especially in environments where instead of > transferring an LPAR to zCloud a new z/OS system is created just for > development purposes so that modern development tools can be used. In that > case there could be a requirement for middleware to co-operate in the > automatic provisioning of test environments. > > At the risk of being contacted by an IBM salesperson I have attempted to > get in touch with a “zCloud” person for information. > > Keith Gooding > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 29 May 2021, at 15:13, Colin Paice wrote: > > > > I remember about 20+ years ago there was "dial a vm" from IBM for > > customers. By the time you had phoned up, given your credit card details > > it had created a second level system for you to play with. > > > > "We did it first on z" > > > > Colin > > > >> On Sat, 29 May 2021 at 12:45, Scott Chapman < > scott.chap...@epstrategies.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> I think one important distinction of cloud vs. outsourcing is the > >> ephemeral nature of the resources in cloud computing. I.E. the ability > to > >> start from zero, provision compute and storage resources of some type > >> (either manually or automatically in response to changing conditions) > and > >> then deprovision them similarly after using the resources for perhaps > mere > >> minutes or hours. The cost is determined by what you used for the > duration > >> you used it, typically billed to an interval of minutes or sometimes > even > >> seconds. And since it has on-ramp starting at zero infrastructure and > zero > >> cost, you can easily try out ideas at a cost of something you can put > on a > >> credit card. Infrastructure is charged in increments of pennies. And if > it > >> doesn't work out, you turn it off and your charges stop.* > >> > >> Last I knew, and I would like to be proven wrong, zCloud didn't embody > the > >> idea of "I want to play with z/OS for a few hours, stand up a z/OS image > >> with x CPU and y GB of disk and put it on my credit card". > >> > >> *-Remember: in the cloud, you pay for what you forgot to turn off. And > >> those pennies can add up shockingly fast in some cases! > >> > >> Scott Chapman > >> > >> -- > >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
One of my reasons for asking about zCloud here was that I have been asked (at second- or third-hand) whether an ISV product is “supported” on zCloud, so there is clearly a case to answer. At first sight, if zCloud just means transferring LPARs to an IBM-owned machine, the answer would be ‘yes’. But there may be reasons why it would not be ‘supported’ - e.g. for licensing reasons, because IBM do not have the expertise to manage it, because IBM prefer to replace it with one of their owns products, etc. Another reason is that I found a reference to “zcloud environments” in IMS v13 documentation in regards to what is now called “cloud provisioning” ie using z/OSMF and possibly Z Cloud Broker) to create and manage middleware environments “on demand” using templates etc provided by the middleware developers. I now think that this use of the term “zcloud” here (or terms such as “Z cloud”, Z/cloud” etc rather than “zCloud” ) may refer generically to cloud services on Z rather than the “Managed Extended Cloud Infrastructure as a Service(IaaS) for IBM Z (zCloud)” offering. There is still a nagging doubt that some ISV products may be required to “play nicely” on zCloud, especially in environments where instead of transferring an LPAR to zCloud a new z/OS system is created just for development purposes so that modern development tools can be used. In that case there could be a requirement for middleware to co-operate in the automatic provisioning of test environments. At the risk of being contacted by an IBM salesperson I have attempted to get in touch with a “zCloud” person for information. Keith Gooding Sent from my iPad > On 29 May 2021, at 15:13, Colin Paice wrote: > > I remember about 20+ years ago there was "dial a vm" from IBM for > customers. By the time you had phoned up, given your credit card details > it had created a second level system for you to play with. > > "We did it first on z" > > Colin > >> On Sat, 29 May 2021 at 12:45, Scott Chapman >> wrote: >> >> I think one important distinction of cloud vs. outsourcing is the >> ephemeral nature of the resources in cloud computing. I.E. the ability to >> start from zero, provision compute and storage resources of some type >> (either manually or automatically in response to changing conditions) and >> then deprovision them similarly after using the resources for perhaps mere >> minutes or hours. The cost is determined by what you used for the duration >> you used it, typically billed to an interval of minutes or sometimes even >> seconds. And since it has on-ramp starting at zero infrastructure and zero >> cost, you can easily try out ideas at a cost of something you can put on a >> credit card. Infrastructure is charged in increments of pennies. And if it >> doesn't work out, you turn it off and your charges stop.* >> >> Last I knew, and I would like to be proven wrong, zCloud didn't embody the >> idea of "I want to play with z/OS for a few hours, stand up a z/OS image >> with x CPU and y GB of disk and put it on my credit card". >> >> *-Remember: in the cloud, you pay for what you forgot to turn off. And >> those pennies can add up shockingly fast in some cases! >> >> Scott Chapman >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
The basic business model predates electronic computing and extends at least as far back as the 1920s when IBM started operating service bureaus with tabulating equipment. See here for a 1937 photographic example: https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/asia/Vietnam_3404ph01.html I assume Remington Rand eventually did something similar. The proliferation of economical, fairly reliable Internet service has made this basic concept more easily accessible and appealing. - - - - - - - - - - Timothy Sipples I.T. Architect Executive Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions IBM Z & LinuxONE - - - - - - - - - - E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
I remember about 20+ years ago there was "dial a vm" from IBM for customers. By the time you had phoned up, given your credit card details it had created a second level system for you to play with. "We did it first on z" Colin On Sat, 29 May 2021 at 12:45, Scott Chapman wrote: > I think one important distinction of cloud vs. outsourcing is the > ephemeral nature of the resources in cloud computing. I.E. the ability to > start from zero, provision compute and storage resources of some type > (either manually or automatically in response to changing conditions) and > then deprovision them similarly after using the resources for perhaps mere > minutes or hours. The cost is determined by what you used for the duration > you used it, typically billed to an interval of minutes or sometimes even > seconds. And since it has on-ramp starting at zero infrastructure and zero > cost, you can easily try out ideas at a cost of something you can put on a > credit card. Infrastructure is charged in increments of pennies. And if it > doesn't work out, you turn it off and your charges stop.* > > Last I knew, and I would like to be proven wrong, zCloud didn't embody the > idea of "I want to play with z/OS for a few hours, stand up a z/OS image > with x CPU and y GB of disk and put it on my credit card". > > *-Remember: in the cloud, you pay for what you forgot to turn off. And > those pennies can add up shockingly fast in some cases! > > Scott Chapman > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
I think one important distinction of cloud vs. outsourcing is the ephemeral nature of the resources in cloud computing. I.E. the ability to start from zero, provision compute and storage resources of some type (either manually or automatically in response to changing conditions) and then deprovision them similarly after using the resources for perhaps mere minutes or hours. The cost is determined by what you used for the duration you used it, typically billed to an interval of minutes or sometimes even seconds. And since it has on-ramp starting at zero infrastructure and zero cost, you can easily try out ideas at a cost of something you can put on a credit card. Infrastructure is charged in increments of pennies. And if it doesn't work out, you turn it off and your charges stop.* Last I knew, and I would like to be proven wrong, zCloud didn't embody the idea of "I want to play with z/OS for a few hours, stand up a z/OS image with x CPU and y GB of disk and put it on my credit card". *-Remember: in the cloud, you pay for what you forgot to turn off. And those pennies can add up shockingly fast in some cases! Scott Chapman -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:50:28 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote: >IMHO it depends. >First, it depends on what we understand as outsourcing. >1. I buy HW and SW and keep it in my datacenter. Oh, BTW: the >application software is mine, not delivered from outside. >2. Application is delivered, and there are many options how to maintain it. >3. I keep HW in leased DC. >4. I rent HW from DC owner. >5. I rent HW from DC owner and some services like cabling, servicing, etc. >6. DC owner takes care about switches and maybe other things. >... >etc. > >Regarding Zcloud - I believe it depends on your expectations how deep >the outsourcing would be. zCloud is IBM-owned and -managed hardware and software in an IBM DC using various software stacks (z/VM, Linux, z/OS, CICS, IMS, DB2, MQ, Websphere, etc.), with your application (if any) and data. You run in one or more LPARs, sharing the machines with other zCloud customers. See the link to the data sheet at https://www.ibm.com/services/cloud/managed-infrastructure-as-a-service. You could view it as a form of outsourcing, yes. Alan Altmark IBM Alan Altmark IBM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
Yup, you’re always right. Sorry.
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Friday, May 28, 2021, 2:31 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
ObInigoMontoya No, the difference between {I believe the firearm to be
unloaded" and "I have verified that the firearm is unloaded" is precisely
semantics. The range officers has this foolish idea that the difference
matters, and ignoring the difference *will* lead to disciplinary action. No
curses, no kicking or beating, just a quick trip to the CO and an Article 15.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 11:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
An unloaded versus loaded gun is quite a bit more than semantics.
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Friday, May 28, 2021, 11:36 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
Yes, and the difference between a trainee who shoots himself and a trainee who
inspects his rifle before claiming that it is unloaded is only semantics, but
the cadre at boot camp thought that the distinction was important.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 10:57 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
Semantics.
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Friday, May 28, 2021, 10:29 AM, Joel C. Ewing wrote:
No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is
very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based
services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced".
A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house
cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices
with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the
definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch
offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither
are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches.
J.C. Ewing
On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are
> on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving
> data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs
> <0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was
> hosted and supported by IBM Global Services.
>
> Mark Jacobs
>
> Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.
>
> GPG Public Key -
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1qAOMAZEgf7ZMHqcX3uzwELDLRR1G1qcwNB2BeZQnwHEDWQqxIrxIHxCtU6R2ku6Y-bjG2tGtYnLal7LD4jhYC8TQ1pKyUGwojhTrz4KOeSfBy5rZSFZI71fhNlruZZfXEf83wCwFiK_0z0Tjh8MRv55xkGvwP9TXbB08_aDcmx3lYJMX9Fx0vWlhhFzCI0yp4mJolK_3I5uSf6XFwbXZIZlRUPZlrGCOlrA6TVGg8mJHa1y8ydg7QxhVxEP70ln0fv1xIV4DUtX0G4YL_SfY4OGT_CNo-qBaVi6dNWztlzRitfXF2AuS4V14ANPd9Zwg671dD0pzRimnLbkWXWT8HJPC2YGgOvKl4MzQLB8la36rXE207CyNZSPaPMHtC_TmUfXKmBTATNaRzlHbrFzZMqYkG0zla1csJfAcgVSHkVtJ9bKSs8h6I18FJmP-OA3T/https%3A%2F%2Fapi.protonmail.ch%2Fpks%2Flookup%3Fop%3Dget%26search%3Dmarkjacobs%40protonmail.com
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>
> On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding
> <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud.
>>
>> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os
>> system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability
>> to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc.
>>
>> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such
>> provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc.
>>
>> Keith Gooding
>>
>> --
>> ...
--
Joel C. Ewing
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / arch
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
ObInigoMontoya No, the difference between {I believe the firearm to be
unloaded" and "I have verified that the firearm is unloaded" is precisely
semantics. The range officers has this foolish idea that the difference
matters, and ignoring the difference *will* lead to disciplinary action. No
curses, no kicking or beating, just a quick trip to the CO and an Article 15.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 11:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
An unloaded versus loaded gun is quite a bit more than semantics.
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Friday, May 28, 2021, 11:36 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
Yes, and the difference between a trainee who shoots himself and a trainee who
inspects his rifle before claiming that it is unloaded is only semantics, but
the cadre at boot camp thought that the distinction was important.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of
Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 10:57 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
Semantics.
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Friday, May 28, 2021, 10:29 AM, Joel C. Ewing wrote:
No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is
very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based
services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced".
A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house
cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices
with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the
definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch
offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither
are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches.
J.C. Ewing
On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are
> on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving
> data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs
> <0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was
> hosted and supported by IBM Global Services.
>
> Mark Jacobs
>
> Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.
>
> GPG Public Key -
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1qAOMAZEgf7ZMHqcX3uzwELDLRR1G1qcwNB2BeZQnwHEDWQqxIrxIHxCtU6R2ku6Y-bjG2tGtYnLal7LD4jhYC8TQ1pKyUGwojhTrz4KOeSfBy5rZSFZI71fhNlruZZfXEf83wCwFiK_0z0Tjh8MRv55xkGvwP9TXbB08_aDcmx3lYJMX9Fx0vWlhhFzCI0yp4mJolK_3I5uSf6XFwbXZIZlRUPZlrGCOlrA6TVGg8mJHa1y8ydg7QxhVxEP70ln0fv1xIV4DUtX0G4YL_SfY4OGT_CNo-qBaVi6dNWztlzRitfXF2AuS4V14ANPd9Zwg671dD0pzRimnLbkWXWT8HJPC2YGgOvKl4MzQLB8la36rXE207CyNZSPaPMHtC_TmUfXKmBTATNaRzlHbrFzZMqYkG0zla1csJfAcgVSHkVtJ9bKSs8h6I18FJmP-OA3T/https%3A%2F%2Fapi.protonmail.ch%2Fpks%2Flookup%3Fop%3Dget%26search%3Dmarkjacobs%40protonmail.com
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>
> On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding
> <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud.
>>
>> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os
>> system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability
>> to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc.
>>
>> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such
>> provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc.
>>
>> Keith Gooding
>>
>> --
>> ...
--
Joel C. Ewing
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu wi
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
I remember the GM/EDS marriage well. After I was forced to transition to EDS, whenever Packard Electric engineers wanted changes made to the IMS system, I had to perform analysis of the request and submit an RFQ (request for quotation) and EDS hierarchy pushed for more hours (they were billable) than it really should have taken. Packard engineering and other users requesting changes were none too happy with the marriage. EDS charged Packard around $75 an hour for my programming & analysis time. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, May 28, 2021, 11:50 AM, Dave Jousma <01a0403c5dc1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: >No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is >very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based >services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". >A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house >cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices >with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the >definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch >offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither >are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches. Definitely semantics. I keep telling non-mainframers here at work that mainframe has been a "cloud" for decades. Think about it, teams just deploy their apps and they run, no server provisioning, etc. Continuous availability, nah AWS has nothing on MF. Today's "cloud" is infrastructure outsourcing, nothing less. Except that the new outsourcers (Amazon, and others), have gotten smarter. Easy to get in, costs an arm and a leg to get out. In distributed systems its a slow growth, server here, server there, before long you have 100's, 1000's of AWS instances all at the mercy of someone somewhere who knows. I used to work for IBM in the 90's in their outsourcing business. Companies that outsourced to reduce capital asset requirements but still were actively using mainframe space, didnt seem to stay outsourced long. Any deviation from original contract to add services was a nightmare. My observation is that company's where MF was stablized, or a company in financial trouble were the ones that stayed. All of this ebb's and flows over time, we'll see how this all shakes out. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
Bingo. And GM eventually took back their outsourced (cloud) processing from EDS. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, May 28, 2021, 11:50 AM, Dave Jousma <01a0403c5dc1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: >No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is >very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based >services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". >A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house >cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices >with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the >definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch >offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither >are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches. Definitely semantics. I keep telling non-mainframers here at work that mainframe has been a "cloud" for decades. Think about it, teams just deploy their apps and they run, no server provisioning, etc. Continuous availability, nah AWS has nothing on MF. Today's "cloud" is infrastructure outsourcing, nothing less. Except that the new outsourcers (Amazon, and others), have gotten smarter. Easy to get in, costs an arm and a leg to get out. In distributed systems its a slow growth, server here, server there, before long you have 100's, 1000's of AWS instances all at the mercy of someone somewhere who knows. I used to work for IBM in the 90's in their outsourcing business. Companies that outsourced to reduce capital asset requirements but still were actively using mainframe space, didnt seem to stay outsourced long. Any deviation from original contract to add services was a nightmare. My observation is that company's where MF was stablized, or a company in financial trouble were the ones that stayed. All of this ebb's and flows over time, we'll see how this all shakes out. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
>No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is >very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based >services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". >A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house >cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices >with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the >definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch >offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither >are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches. Definitely semantics. I keep telling non-mainframers here at work that mainframe has been a "cloud" for decades. Think about it, teams just deploy their apps and they run, no server provisioning, etc.Continuous availability, nah AWS has nothing on MF. Today's "cloud" is infrastructure outsourcing, nothing less. Except that the new outsourcers (Amazon, and others), have gotten smarter. Easy to get in, costs an arm and a leg to get out. In distributed systems its a slow growth, server here, server there, before long you have 100's, 1000's of AWS instances all at the mercy of someone somewhere who knows. I used to work for IBM in the 90's in their outsourcing business. Companies that outsourced to reduce capital asset requirements but still were actively using mainframe space, didnt seem to stay outsourced long.Any deviation from original contract to add services was a nightmare. My observation is that company's where MF was stablized, or a company in financial trouble were the ones that stayed. All of this ebb's and flows over time, we'll see how this all shakes out. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
An unloaded versus loaded gun is quite a bit more than semantics. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, May 28, 2021, 11:36 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: Yes, and the difference between a trainee who shoots himself and a trainee who inspects his rifle before claiming that it is unloaded is only semantics, but the cadre at boot camp thought that the distinction was important. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 10:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ? Semantics. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, May 28, 2021, 10:29 AM, Joel C. Ewing wrote: No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches. J.C. Ewing On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote: > All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are > on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving > data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs > <0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was > hosted and supported by IBM Global Services. > > Mark Jacobs > > Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email. > > GPG Public Key - > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1qAOMAZEgf7ZMHqcX3uzwELDLRR1G1qcwNB2BeZQnwHEDWQqxIrxIHxCtU6R2ku6Y-bjG2tGtYnLal7LD4jhYC8TQ1pKyUGwojhTrz4KOeSfBy5rZSFZI71fhNlruZZfXEf83wCwFiK_0z0Tjh8MRv55xkGvwP9TXbB08_aDcmx3lYJMX9Fx0vWlhhFzCI0yp4mJolK_3I5uSf6XFwbXZIZlRUPZlrGCOlrA6TVGg8mJHa1y8ydg7QxhVxEP70ln0fv1xIV4DUtX0G4YL_SfY4OGT_CNo-qBaVi6dNWztlzRitfXF2AuS4V14ANPd9Zwg671dD0pzRimnLbkWXWT8HJPC2YGgOvKl4MzQLB8la36rXE207CyNZSPaPMHtC_TmUfXKmBTATNaRzlHbrFzZMqYkG0zla1csJfAcgVSHkVtJ9bKSs8h6I18FJmP-OA3T/https%3A%2F%2Fapi.protonmail.ch%2Fpks%2Flookup%3Fop%3Dget%26search%3Dmarkjacobs%40protonmail.com > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding > <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud. >> >> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os >> system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability >> to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc. >> >> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such >> provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc. >> >> Keith Gooding >> >> -- >> ... -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
Yes, and the difference between a trainee who shoots himself and a trainee who inspects his rifle before claiming that it is unloaded is only semantics, but the cadre at boot camp thought that the distinction was important. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Bill Johnson <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 10:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ? Semantics. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, May 28, 2021, 10:29 AM, Joel C. Ewing wrote: No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches. J.C. Ewing On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote: > All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are > on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving > data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs > <0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was > hosted and supported by IBM Global Services. > > Mark Jacobs > > Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email. > > GPG Public Key - > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1qAOMAZEgf7ZMHqcX3uzwELDLRR1G1qcwNB2BeZQnwHEDWQqxIrxIHxCtU6R2ku6Y-bjG2tGtYnLal7LD4jhYC8TQ1pKyUGwojhTrz4KOeSfBy5rZSFZI71fhNlruZZfXEf83wCwFiK_0z0Tjh8MRv55xkGvwP9TXbB08_aDcmx3lYJMX9Fx0vWlhhFzCI0yp4mJolK_3I5uSf6XFwbXZIZlRUPZlrGCOlrA6TVGg8mJHa1y8ydg7QxhVxEP70ln0fv1xIV4DUtX0G4YL_SfY4OGT_CNo-qBaVi6dNWztlzRitfXF2AuS4V14ANPd9Zwg671dD0pzRimnLbkWXWT8HJPC2YGgOvKl4MzQLB8la36rXE207CyNZSPaPMHtC_TmUfXKmBTATNaRzlHbrFzZMqYkG0zla1csJfAcgVSHkVtJ9bKSs8h6I18FJmP-OA3T/https%3A%2F%2Fapi.protonmail.ch%2Fpks%2Flookup%3Fop%3Dget%26search%3Dmarkjacobs%40protonmail.com > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding > <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud. >> >> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os >> system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability >> to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc. >> >> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such >> provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc. >> >> Keith Gooding >> >> -- >> ... -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
At GM, circa 1983-84, we had plants all over the country that worked off of a mainframe in Warren, Ohio. (Packard Electric) After the transition to EDS, those same plants worked off the mainframe in Charlotte, NC. (They moved multiple GM divisions there) Early cloud processing, outsourced to EDS. Now, any time I perform a banking transaction, it gets processed wherever the JP Morgan mainframe is located. If I access my photos, they are retrieved from Apple or Amazon at one of their DC’s. The only difference is in 1984 you used a stationary PC or Terminal. Now you use a smaller PC called a laptop or phone. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, May 28, 2021, 10:29 AM, Joel C. Ewing wrote: No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches. J.C. Ewing On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote: > All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are > on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving > data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs > <0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was > hosted and supported by IBM Global Services. > > Mark Jacobs > > Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email. > > GPG Public Key - > https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get=markjac...@protonmail.com > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding > <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud. >> >> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os >> system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability >> to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc. >> >> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such >> provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc. >> >> Keith Gooding >> >> -- >> ... -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
Semantics. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, May 28, 2021, 10:29 AM, Joel C. Ewing wrote: No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches. J.C. Ewing On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote: > All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are > on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving > data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs > <0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was > hosted and supported by IBM Global Services. > > Mark Jacobs > > Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email. > > GPG Public Key - > https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get=markjac...@protonmail.com > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding > <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud. >> >> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os >> system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability >> to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc. >> >> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such >> provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc. >> >> Keith Gooding >> >> -- >> ... -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
"Congratulations, you've invented time sharing!" -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Joel C. Ewing [jce.ebe...@cox.net] Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 10:29 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ? No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches. J.C. Ewing On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote: > All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are > on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving > data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs > <0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was > hosted and supported by IBM Global Services. > > Mark Jacobs > > Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email. > > GPG Public Key - > https://secure-web.cisco.com/11Tb5NRriA73gnjPf_5-9YQYk-TOQZSw3d7Ac0bmbR59osbwi4m8H-DhG8yluhMuQYdI5VJI1QLsfUNM3cZUN2Hack8uMnzeJ_O8S4GbiZ8OsN86hKNu4j6dQI-7Kb9ioPcbzwksrgI2BVQBzeRy2CDgnZGrJL7ZhctpY72k1FTWZcbsXjr4VAqb8QQ08xbuhTnCevKy1MvBslmbuIfhiVL_N-1-YlXo44rWiDebxPBEICFG4-zYhL-g_b0haH36NH0sd1FngZDt9kcRWhhaqApiwYv7GRxhEou5p-oo8xtu5RY8--K5T3IXxiRaCZuiu_NbVGCGKiAyf88HMzAnUL5n1wqzv6VKDPZ1iz2hgEs4SQRdrPtC_boPP9HGm3RDCILAiGVUEh-PLwgxniEiy-y2wJeA8lh1yOQteHIeI8dh15CthMrrfOiQb1mwu4S7M/https%3A%2F%2Fapi.protonmail.ch%2Fpks%2Flookup%3Fop%3Dget%26search%3Dmarkjacobs%40protonmail.com > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding > <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud. >> >> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os >> system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability >> to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc. >> >> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such >> provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc. >> >> Keith Gooding >> >> -- >> ... -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches. J.C. Ewing On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote: > All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are > on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving > data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs > <0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was > hosted and supported by IBM Global Services. > > Mark Jacobs > > Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email. > > GPG Public Key - > https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get=markjac...@protonmail.com > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding > <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud. >> >> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os >> system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability >> to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc. >> >> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such >> provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc. >> >> Keith Gooding >> >> -- >> ... -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
IMHO it depends. First, it depends on what we understand as outsourcing. 1. I buy HW and SW and keep it in my datacenter. Oh, BTW: the application software is mine, not delivered from outside. 2. Application is delivered, and there are many options how to maintain it. 3. I keep HW in leased DC. 4. I rent HW from DC owner. 5. I rent HW from DC owner and some services like cabling, servicing, etc. 6. DC owner takes care about switches and maybe other things. ... etc. Regarding Zcloud - I believe it depends on your expectations how deep the outsourcing would be. -- Radoslaw Skorupka (looking for new job) Lodz, Poland W dniu 27.05.2021 o 15:22, Keith Gooding pisze: I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud. As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc. Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc. Keith Gooding -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs <0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was hosted and supported by IBM Global Services. Mark Jacobs Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email. GPG Public Key - https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get=markjac...@protonmail.com ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud. > > As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os > system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability to > dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc. > > Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such > provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc. > > Keith Gooding > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?
AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was hosted and supported by IBM Global Services. Mark Jacobs Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email. GPG Public Key - https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get=markjac...@protonmail.com ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding <034af3894af4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud. > > As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os > system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability to > dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc. > > Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such > provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc. > > Keith Gooding > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
