Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
Philip Sturgeon wrote:
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Arvids Godjuks
arvids.godj...@gmail.com wrote:
пт, 13 Мар 2015, 23:01, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com:
Pavel,
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Pavel Kouřil pajou...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com
wrote:
But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the
only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best chance
for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the
different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating
users.
Hello,
I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode:
- It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't
think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or the
declare() one, because both of them are bad.
- It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it
does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups.
- Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would probably
be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most
people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the
language.
(There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I
currently have.)
Regards
Pavel Kouril
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Hang on. This is not the time to nitpick things in various RFCs that
have already been answered time and time again.
An ini setting would be insane because taking an app that works on one
machine and putting it on another would completely break the app.
Hello anything using Composer, hello any CMS, hello any system moving
to a new host that doesn't let you change ini settings, or you dont
know how.
A declare statement in the top of the file changing how that file
handles things is hardly a problem, and is exactly how a lot of other
languages do things. Hello JavaScript.
It seems like you didn't read anything now you're just saying it's
bad a lot. Please don't do that.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
That declare thing with the removal of block-aware declare(){} kills one of
the fundamental optimizations you can do for large PHP projects - compacting
most used files into one single big file and caching it. And you never had
to care what the files are - just splice it all together and let autoload
handle the rare cases. With single declare statement I effectivly have to
scan all the code, remove declare statements and choose a mode globally.
Well, it might work for a small project, but in a big project with multiple
teams or even multiple vendors doing different parts
At this point I have only swearing words for the proposing persons and
supporters.
It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you
can't fix it with some PHP code.
You really had to fuck it all up for us, the userland developers, didn't
you?
Sorry, but I now question the wisdom and sanity of most new PHP folks.
Because the old once see the danger and vote no. And everyone just thinks
they act up. Well, you wrong. I will nit be surprised if they just leave the
project for good after this.
Wow, that's a lot of rage over nothing. Here, I got you a gift:
foreach (new DirectoryIterator('./src/**/*.php') as $fileInfo) {
$fileContents = file_get_contents($fileInfo-getFilename());
if (strpos($fileContents, 'declare(strict_types=1') !== 0) {
$fileContents = str_replace(declare(strict_types, #
declare(strict_types, $fileContents);
file_put_contents('./compiled/weak.php', $fileContents, FILE_APPEND);
} else {
file_put_contents('./compiled/strict.php', $fileContents, FILE_APPEND);
}
}
Tadaaa.
Phil Sturgeon. Problem solver. Fixer of the bad day. Userland Ninjitsu. :)
I would like to appologize for my previous email. ..
It contained quite a serious oversight.
if (strpos($fileContents, 'declare(strict_types=1') !== true) {
That's better.
Wouldn't the condition be always true in this case? Testing for ===
false seems to be more appropriate.
--
Christoph M. Becker
--
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Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On 03/15/2015 03:49 AM, Dennis Birkholz wrote: Hi together, Am 14.03.2015 um 14:37 schrieb Peter van Fessem: If a dev turns a file that he or she wrote into strict mode, then that only counts for that specific file. If you take over some code, then you can remove the declare line. *none* of those things you'd be able to do with ini settings. So don't shout out that nonsense FUD. It's equivalent to an ini setting in that it changes the behavior of the code based on something that is declared elsewhere. Obviously a declare statement in the top of the file is a lot better than an ini setting, but I think the principle is the same. that is simply not true. The principle is not the same. The principle is roughly the same as with namespaces. If you are unsure, got to the top of the file, finished. Ini-Settings are runtime-dependent so there is no way to find out what the ini-setting will be beforehand. I don't think we disagree on this. I was only trying to say that both ini settings and declare statements influence behavior of other code, and that in both cases you have to put some effort into looking up the current value, but that is where the comparison ends. I think nobody will argue that namespaces are to complicated because you can define the current namespace at the top of a file which than changes the behavior of the file completely (which it does, somehow, by the way). I'd never argue that namespaces are complicated, but they, like every language feature, add a non zero complication to the language, whether you would use them yourself or not. Looking at the top of the file isn't a massive problem, but it is a small one. If I didn't see the value in namespaces, I'd prefer not to have them in the language at all (but I do, so I don't). I'm arguing against statements like: Well if you don't like strict mode, don't use it.. It's not that simple. The fact that it exists adds a cost. Greets Dennis Thanks, Peter -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
Hi together, Am 14.03.2015 um 14:37 schrieb Peter van Fessem: If a dev turns a file that he or she wrote into strict mode, then that only counts for that specific file. If you take over some code, then you can remove the declare line. *none* of those things you'd be able to do with ini settings. So don't shout out that nonsense FUD. It's equivalent to an ini setting in that it changes the behavior of the code based on something that is declared elsewhere. Obviously a declare statement in the top of the file is a lot better than an ini setting, but I think the principle is the same. that is simply not true. The principle is not the same. The principle is roughly the same as with namespaces. If you are unsure, got to the top of the file, finished. Ini-Settings are runtime-dependent so there is no way to find out what the ini-setting will be beforehand. I think nobody will argue that namespaces are to complicated because you can define the current namespace at the top of a file which than changes the behavior of the file completely (which it does, somehow, by the way). Greets Dennis -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Arvids Godjuks
arvids.godj...@gmail.com wrote:
пт, 13 Мар 2015, 23:01, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com:
Pavel,
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Pavel Kouřil pajou...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com
wrote:
But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the
only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best chance
for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the
different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating
users.
Hello,
I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode:
- It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't
think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or the
declare() one, because both of them are bad.
- It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it
does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups.
- Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would probably
be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most
people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the
language.
(There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I
currently have.)
Regards
Pavel Kouril
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Hang on. This is not the time to nitpick things in various RFCs that
have already been answered time and time again.
An ini setting would be insane because taking an app that works on one
machine and putting it on another would completely break the app.
Hello anything using Composer, hello any CMS, hello any system moving
to a new host that doesn't let you change ini settings, or you dont
know how.
A declare statement in the top of the file changing how that file
handles things is hardly a problem, and is exactly how a lot of other
languages do things. Hello JavaScript.
It seems like you didn't read anything now you're just saying it's
bad a lot. Please don't do that.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
That declare thing with the removal of block-aware declare(){} kills one of
the fundamental optimizations you can do for large PHP projects - compacting
most used files into one single big file and caching it. And you never had
to care what the files are - just splice it all together and let autoload
handle the rare cases. With single declare statement I effectivly have to
scan all the code, remove declare statements and choose a mode globally.
Well, it might work for a small project, but in a big project with multiple
teams or even multiple vendors doing different parts
At this point I have only swearing words for the proposing persons and
supporters.
It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you
can't fix it with some PHP code.
You really had to fuck it all up for us, the userland developers, didn't
you?
Sorry, but I now question the wisdom and sanity of most new PHP folks.
Because the old once see the danger and vote no. And everyone just thinks
they act up. Well, you wrong. I will nit be surprised if they just leave the
project for good after this.
Wow, that's a lot of rage over nothing. Here, I got you a gift:
foreach (new DirectoryIterator('./src/**/*.php') as $fileInfo) {
$fileContents = file_get_contents($fileInfo-getFilename());
if (strpos($fileContents, 'declare(strict_types=1') !== 0) {
$fileContents = str_replace(declare(strict_types, #
declare(strict_types, $fileContents);
file_put_contents('./compiled/weak.php', $fileContents, FILE_APPEND);
} else {
file_put_contents('./compiled/strict.php', $fileContents, FILE_APPEND);
}
}
Tadaaa.
Phil Sturgeon. Problem solver. Fixer of the bad day. Userland Ninjitsu. :)
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
Hi Anthony and Zeev, On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com wrote: There's something that I think needs to be said about the now 3 scalar type proposals. Please bear with me, there's a lot to say here. I'll try to keep it as brief as I can. I've been working off-and-on on scalar types for over 3 years. I've officially proposed 3 proposals and have discussed and played with many more versions. After I left, Andrea mentioned to me that she wanted to pick one up. So I helped her. I worked with her for months on what was ultimately withdrawn (https://wiki.php.net/rfc/scalar_type_hinting_with_cast). At that point I resigned to the fact that it wasn't possible to do scalar types in PHP. Andrea proved me wrong. When she came up with the dual-mode RFC in 0.3, it was the first proposal that either of us worked on that even had a shot of passing. She put it up to vote slightly prematurely, but the votes were pretty clear that it was basically what people wanted, but with a few minor issues. When she abandoned it, I picked it up. Partly because I wanted to see it pass (I think it's the right proposal), but partly because I didn't want to see her efforts go in vain by people who didn't even understand the why. So let me explain what I learned through that experience. Why I chose to pick the dual mode RFC back up. Why I predicted the coercive mode RFC would do so badly. And why I currently predict the basic scalar type RFC, if voted on, would fail as well. It comes down to what people want. It became quite clear early on, that no matter what rule set you choose, there is a non-trivial amount of people who want something else. This is life. However, in this case, there are basically 3 camps: 1) Those that want purely weak types (what we have with ZPP now). 2) Those that want stronger weak types (similar to what the coercive mode proposal does, but slightly stricter) 3) Those that want strict types. Each of these three camps has a non-trivial amount of members (at least 20-30%). Personal interactions that I've had suggest to me that the largest camp is for strong types, but even if it wasn't, it's still not trivial. So what does that mean? Well, it means that no single mode proposal can pass. Because any single mode proposal is 100% guaranteed to alienate the needs/wants of at least 1, but more likely 2 of those groups. The current dual mode proposal is the only one that I've seen that doesn't alienate groups. It gives the purely weak camp what they want (and by default too). It gives the strict type camp what they want. And it lets the stronger-weak-types group choose between the two as they want/need. Is it a perfect proposal? No. But it works for everyone, rather than against them. Zeev mentioned on twitter yesterday that he wants to at least try and understand why people are voting no for it and turn it around with respect to his coercive proposal. Despite the fact that many people have said in threads why they voted against it, let me say it again here, really simply. There are two fundamental reasons people are voting against it: 1) Backwards Compatibility and 2) It alienates the needs of a portion of voters. And there's a deeper problem. In trying to clean up the conversions, it partially makes it stricter than some want (the purely weak group) and doesn't go far enough for those that want stronger weak types. So it sits as a worst-of-all-worlds. Bob's pure-weak proposal (which is basically 1/2 of the dual mode RFC) seems like a great compromise. It's simple, easy to use, easy to understand, and can be part of a stepping stone to future modes (a strict mode can always be added later). But that ignores that it doesn't give 2/3 of the people what they want/need. It ignores that it actually makes it *less* likely for those 2/3 to get what they want/need. Without the support of 2 of the groups, it's unlikely that anything will ever pass. And a future RFC to introduce a strict mode (after we have a weak mode) would be unlikely to pass since it serves no benefit to the weak group. So what effectively would happen is you'd get at least 1 of the groups (the strict group) to vote against it. And you'd get at least a few from the stronger-weak types group to vote against it. Meaning that it would be hard to get it passed. Scalar types are a **hard** problem. Not technically, but politically, because so many people use PHP in different ways. And everyone thinks their way is the one true way. The dual-mode proposal is the only one on the table that currently addresses the different needs of different people. Does that mean that a single-mode compromise is impossible? I wouldn't use the word impossible, but I certainly would use improbable. We've been talking about this for **years**. The chances are quite high that if a good compromise existed, it would have been found. Instead, every compromise that
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:19 PM, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Arvids Godjuks
arvids.godj...@gmail.com wrote:
пт, 13 Мар 2015, 23:01, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com:
Pavel,
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Pavel Kouřil pajou...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com
wrote:
But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the
only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best chance
for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the
different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating
users.
Hello,
I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode:
- It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't
think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or the
declare() one, because both of them are bad.
- It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it
does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups.
- Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would probably
be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most
people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the
language.
(There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I
currently have.)
Regards
Pavel Kouril
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Hang on. This is not the time to nitpick things in various RFCs that
have already been answered time and time again.
An ini setting would be insane because taking an app that works on one
machine and putting it on another would completely break the app.
Hello anything using Composer, hello any CMS, hello any system moving
to a new host that doesn't let you change ini settings, or you dont
know how.
A declare statement in the top of the file changing how that file
handles things is hardly a problem, and is exactly how a lot of other
languages do things. Hello JavaScript.
It seems like you didn't read anything now you're just saying it's
bad a lot. Please don't do that.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
That declare thing with the removal of block-aware declare(){} kills one of
the fundamental optimizations you can do for large PHP projects - compacting
most used files into one single big file and caching it. And you never had
to care what the files are - just splice it all together and let autoload
handle the rare cases. With single declare statement I effectivly have to
scan all the code, remove declare statements and choose a mode globally.
Well, it might work for a small project, but in a big project with multiple
teams or even multiple vendors doing different parts
At this point I have only swearing words for the proposing persons and
supporters.
It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you
can't fix it with some PHP code.
You really had to fuck it all up for us, the userland developers, didn't
you?
Sorry, but I now question the wisdom and sanity of most new PHP folks.
Because the old once see the danger and vote no. And everyone just thinks
they act up. Well, you wrong. I will nit be surprised if they just leave the
project for good after this.
Wow, that's a lot of rage over nothing. Here, I got you a gift:
foreach (new DirectoryIterator('./src/**/*.php') as $fileInfo) {
$fileContents = file_get_contents($fileInfo-getFilename());
if (strpos($fileContents, 'declare(strict_types=1') !== 0) {
$fileContents = str_replace(declare(strict_types, #
declare(strict_types, $fileContents);
file_put_contents('./compiled/weak.php', $fileContents, FILE_APPEND);
} else {
file_put_contents('./compiled/strict.php', $fileContents, FILE_APPEND);
}
}
Tadaaa.
Phil Sturgeon. Problem solver. Fixer of the bad day. Userland Ninjitsu. :)
I would like to appologize for my previous email. ..
It contained quite a serious oversight.
if (strpos($fileContents, 'declare(strict_types=1') !== true) {
That's better.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On 03/13/2015 06:02 PM, Arvids Godjuks wrote: At this point I have only swearing words for the proposing persons and supporters. It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you can't fix it with some PHP code. You really had to fuck it all up for us, the userland developers, didn't you? Sorry, but I now question the wisdom and sanity of most new PHP folks. Because the old once see the danger and vote no. And everyone just thinks they act up. Well, you wrong. I will nit be surprised if they just leave the project for good after this. If you're going to behave this way in public, please just leave the project for good. It will be good for the project. --Larry Garfield -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On Fri, 13 Mar 2015, Arvids Godjuks wrote: At this point I have only swearing words for the proposing persons and supporters. Certainly *that* is going to help? It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you can't fix it with some PHP code. It is not even close to equivalent. As those options are php.ini settings. There is nothing, absolutely *nothing*, that will change if you, as an author of a PHP file, does not use typehints in that file. If a dev turns a file that he or she wrote into strict mode, then that only counts for that specific file. If you take over some code, then you can remove the declare line. *none* of those things you'd be able to do with ini settings. So don't shout out that nonsense FUD. You really had to fuck it all up for us, the userland developers, didn't you? Sorry, but I now question the wisdom and sanity of most new PHP folks. Because the old once see the danger and vote no. And everyone just thinks they act up. Well, you wrong. I will nit be surprised if they just leave the project for good after this. Yes, because of people like you swearing at them. cheers, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On 03/14/2015 01:10 PM, Derick Rethans wrote: On Fri, 13 Mar 2015, Arvids Godjuks wrote: It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you can't fix it with some PHP code. It is not even close to equivalent. As those options are php.ini settings. There is nothing, absolutely *nothing*, that will change if you, as an author of a PHP file, does not use typehints in that file. If a dev turns a file that he or she wrote into strict mode, then that only counts for that specific file. If you take over some code, then you can remove the declare line. *none* of those things you'd be able to do with ini settings. So don't shout out that nonsense FUD. It's equivalent to an ini setting in that it changes the behavior of the code based on something that is declared elsewhere. Obviously a declare statement in the top of the file is a lot better than an ini setting, but I think the principle is the same. I prefer consistency over choice. I don't think it's that important that it matches my wishes/requirements exactly, because it's never going to; but if a switch is going to be implemented, I'm going to have to use both depending on who I work with/for, and that seems a lot more annoying than whatever the type system ends up being. I would strongly prefer a type system that matches the current type conversion rules, and slowly 'strengthen' these *together*, over the next few major releases to something that matches the weak type system proposals. Somewhat unrelated: I don't really buy the javascript strict mode comparison. Strict mode was added to differentiate between an 'old' and a 'new' system, but here two new modes are added in one go. Just my 2 cents. Regards, Peter -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On 13/03/15 23:48, Arvids Godjuks wrote: And actually, I would plea for a moment of sanity right now. As far as i'm concerned - the RM for the 7.0 had to step in a long time ago and said guys, I do not accept any typehint proposals into the 7.0 release, work it out and come back for 7.1. Because if this would be a commercial development before a release - feature would be scrapped and re-sheduled for later release. Why? Because the clusterf**k happened at RFC level already, the development itself is going to be haisty considering the timeline and definetly being bombarded by the protesters, countless critisism and so on. It is going to affect the projects. And that is a bad thing. Look past the damn typehint RFC's and just try to asses the big picture. Right now it's a tunnel vision for many on the list. Seconded ... There are more important things to get right, so perhaps just protecting the hooks for type hints is the best that can be fully supported in PHP7 ? Lets simply get the ground rules on naming conventions and what is reserved and the like to start the path to bigger things later? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
Hi, On 13 March 2015 at 23:48, Arvids Godjuks arvids.godj...@gmail.com wrote: And actually, I would plea for a moment of sanity right now. As far as i'm concerned - the RM for the 7.0 had to step in a long time ago and said guys, I do not accept any typehint proposals into the 7.0 release, work it out and come back for 7.1. Because if this would be a commercial development before a release - feature would be scrapped and re-sheduled for later release. Why? Because the clusterf**k happened at RFC level already, the development itself is going to be haisty considering the timeline and definetly being bombarded by the protesters, countless critisism and so on. It is going to affect the projects. And that is a bad thing. Look past the damn typehint RFC's and just try to asses the big picture. Right now it's a tunnel vision for many on the list. This has been under discussion for a really long time and putting it off is unlikely to substantially change the outcome. The current RFCs went to vote within the allowed timeline for PHP7. What you are basically saying is that the entire PHP 7 timeline is flawed. If that's the case then you should be arguing for the PHP7 timing to be changed, if you feel that any RFC will need additional development time, not for the typehinting RFCs to all be withdrawn. Paddy -- Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.survivethedeepend.com -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On 14 March 2015 at 15:05, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Just what is being added which PHP5 will actually baulk at? The code base I will be running myself with PHP7 is PHP5.4 with E_STRICT etc. clean code. For the RFC https://wiki.php.net/rfc/scalar_type_hints_v5 that is on the edge of passing there will be no effects on BC for code, except for the fact that int/string etc are now reserved words. There may be other issues upgrading to 7 caused by other RFCs - but that scalar type hints proposal does not cause any issues. I'll ask yet again a question that I keep asking but not seeing anybody explaining. Perhaps if you sent fewer emails to the internals list, people would be more likely to read and respond to the emails you do send? cheers Dan -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On 14/03/15 11:08, Lester Caine wrote: Lets simply get the ground rules on naming conventions and what is reserved and the like to start the path to bigger things later? I'll ask yet again a question that I keep asking but not seeing anybody explaining. Just what is being added which PHP5 will actually baulk at? I've been assuming 'the type hints' and that it is adding these which will make a current library unusable with PHP5 systems? All of the discussion on just HOW the type hints are handled is secondary to the basic breaking of the code base? Once a third party has added type hints we have to handle the results, which may be different depending on how the 'user' of type hint expects it to be interpreted? Weak or Strict will fail in different ways? But of more interest, just what happens if I pick up a library that has been 'improved' by the inclusion of strict types but I'm still working with no typing at all? Or rather legacy type checking as part of the code base. The code base I will be running myself with PHP7 is PHP5.4 with E_STRICT etc. clean code. That is what the test bed is comparing and with what has been added so far the code simply works, and I expect THAT to be the case but I keep seeing things which suggest I will HAVE to make changes to the PHP5.4 code for it to run clean on PHP7 by the time we get to RC stage? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
Hi, 2015-03-13 12:45 GMT-03:00 Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com: All, [...] I respectfully ask Zeev to retract his current proposal as it's currently failing with 68% of voters voting against it (currently 16:34). Without extending the timeline for 7, there's very little chance of it passing. So rather than dragging out the entire process needlessly for 2 more weeks, can we just finally be done with it? Thanks, Anthony -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php At the time I'm witting this, the Coercive Scalar Types RFC needs 52 yes votes to reach minimum ratio. This RFC was well discussed and people justified their no votes quite verbosely on the respective thread. Being practical, we all know it has no chances to pass. By keeping this vote running we put in risk all the advancements that are already so close to be consolidated. Loosing this opportunity would be damaging for both the major part of the community and the RFC process itself, IMMO, specially because the dual mode RFC already reached super majority and the voting would be closed today. The concurrent RFC, that is now clearly rejected, had its chance and failed. I agree that dropping the vote for Coercive Scalar Typehints is the logical (even noble) attitude in such context. Please let's not drag this situation for more two weeks for nothing. Regards, Márcio
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On 13 March 2015 at 17:24, Marcio Almada marcio.w...@gmail.com wrote: At the time I'm witting this, the Coercive Scalar Types RFC needs 52 yes votes to reach minimum ratio. This RFC was well discussed and people justified their no votes quite verbosely on the respective thread. Being practical, we all know it has no chances to pass. By keeping this vote running we put in risk all the advancements that are already so close to be consolidated. Loosing this opportunity would be damaging for both the major part of the community and the RFC process itself, IMMO, specially because the dual mode RFC already reached super majority and the voting would be closed today. The concurrent RFC, that is now clearly rejected, had its chance and failed. I agree that dropping the vote for Coercive Scalar Typehints is the logical (even noble) attitude in such context. Please let's not drag this situation for more two weeks for nothing. Indeed, at this point in time the Coercive RFC is considered harmful, a lot of damage has already been done, but we can at least try and mitigate further damage. Many people who have been coerced (see what I did there?) into voting for the coercive RFC have voted against the dual-mode RFC out of principal. Yes for one is No for another, makes sense. How many do you think will revisit their vote if one RFC is retracted? So I also urge people to consider this. Do you want scalar type hints in the language? If there was only the dual-mode RFC, would you vote for it? If the answer to both of those is Yes, then you should consider supporting the option that actually stands a chance of passing. If you're in the strict camp, and you're voting against because you don't want to declare strict in every file, there are ways around this. Don't oppose the RFC simply on this issue alone. Cheers, Leigh. On 13 March 2015 at 17:24, Marcio Almada marcio.w...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, 2015-03-13 12:45 GMT-03:00 Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com: All, [...] I respectfully ask Zeev to retract his current proposal as it's currently failing with 68% of voters voting against it (currently 16:34). Without extending the timeline for 7, there's very little chance of it passing. So rather than dragging out the entire process needlessly for 2 more weeks, can we just finally be done with it? Thanks, Anthony -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php At the time I'm witting this, the Coercive Scalar Types RFC needs 52 yes votes to reach minimum ratio. This RFC was well discussed and people justified their no votes quite verbosely on the respective thread. Being practical, we all know it has no chances to pass. By keeping this vote running we put in risk all the advancements that are already so close to be consolidated. Loosing this opportunity would be damaging for both the major part of the community and the RFC process itself, IMMO, specially because the dual mode RFC already reached super majority and the voting would be closed today. The concurrent RFC, that is now clearly rejected, had its chance and failed. I agree that dropping the vote for Coercive Scalar Typehints is the logical (even noble) attitude in such context. Please let's not drag this situation for more two weeks for nothing. Regards, Márcio -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 10:01 PM, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com wrote: Pavel, On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Pavel Kouřil pajou...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com wrote: But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best chance for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating users. Hello, I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode: - It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or the declare() one, because both of them are bad. - It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups. - Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would probably be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the language. (There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I currently have.) Regards Pavel Kouril -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Hang on. This is not the time to nitpick things in various RFCs that have already been answered time and time again. An ini setting would be insane because taking an app that works on one machine and putting it on another would completely break the app. Hello anything using Composer, hello any CMS, hello any system moving to a new host that doesn't let you change ini settings, or you dont know how. A declare statement in the top of the file changing how that file handles things is hardly a problem, and is exactly how a lot of other languages do things. Hello JavaScript. It seems like you didn't read anything now you're just saying it's bad a lot. Please don't do that. Hello, there may maybe be some misinterpretation of what I'm saying, but I read everything from the scalar types discussions in the past 2 or 3 months, actually. I know ini setting is much much worse than this, but this is imho still bad - the intent is pretty much similiar (aka some directive that changes how code behaves); I've been saying that I disagree with this approach ever since the Andrea's first Dual Mode was published as a RFC and I feel I need to bring it up again. Regards Pavel Kouril -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com wrote: But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best chance for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating users. Hello, I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode: - It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or the declare() one, because both of them are bad. - It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups. - Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would probably be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the language. (There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I currently have.) Regards Pavel Kouril -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
пт, 13 Мар 2015, 23:01, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com:
Pavel,
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Pavel Kouřil pajou...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com
wrote:
But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the
only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best chance
for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the
different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating
users.
Hello,
I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode:
- It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't
think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or the
declare() one, because both of them are bad.
- It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it
does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups.
- Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would probably
be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most
people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the
language.
(There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I
currently have.)
Regards
Pavel Kouril
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Hang on. This is not the time to nitpick things in various RFCs that
have already been answered time and time again.
An ini setting would be insane because taking an app that works on one
machine and putting it on another would completely break the app.
Hello anything using Composer, hello any CMS, hello any system moving
to a new host that doesn't let you change ini settings, or you dont
know how.
A declare statement in the top of the file changing how that file
handles things is hardly a problem, and is exactly how a lot of other
languages do things. Hello JavaScript.
It seems like you didn't read anything now you're just saying it's
bad a lot. Please don't do that.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
That declare thing with the removal of block-aware declare(){} kills one
of the fundamental optimizations you can do for large PHP projects -
compacting most used files into one single big file and caching it. And you
never had to care what the files are - just splice it all together and let
autoload handle the rare cases. With single declare statement I effectivly
have to scan all the code, remove declare statements and choose a mode
globally. Well, it might work for a small project, but in a big project
with multiple teams or even multiple vendors doing different parts
At this point I have only swearing words for the proposing persons and
supporters.
It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you
can't fix it with some PHP code.
You really had to fuck it all up for us, the userland developers, didn't
you?
Sorry, but I now question the wisdom and sanity of most new PHP folks.
Because the old once see the danger and vote no. And everyone just thinks
they act up. Well, you wrong. I will nit be surprised if they just leave
the project for good after this.
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
Opcode caches just cache the compiled code - you still need to load the
code into the engine, do checks for file modifications and other stuff.
Yes, if you are a badass and have full controll, all that can be solved.
Reality, however, is one big f***up. I had to fix a lot of weird stuff,
including the cases where there was some kind of opcode cache and it still
was horrible. Or shared enviroment. Or just bad code. You havent seen
FTP/SFTP project deployment in last few years? I envy you. You work for
godly clients. Or it's just that you are a rockstar in a rockstar friendly
company with resources and will to do things right. But most of us a far
lower in the food chain. We have to deal with things that would give you
nightmares.
Or take most of Open Source PHP code - besides a few high quality projects
like Symfony and the bunch, it's bad. And I know one instanse of an Open
Source project with PHP part that will go full retard mode with strict
typehints no matter the cost or consiquences. Probably will end up killing
the company behind it in the long run.
There is one thing that you learn when you actually go beyound the coding:
never ever give user a choise - he doesn't know what he wants anyway. He
thinks he needs one thing, in reality tests show absolutelly different
stuff. You need to make a decision select a way you wana do it. It newer
works out with choises - people always make a mess.
сб, 14 Мар 2015, 1:11, Benjamin Eberlei kont...@beberlei.de:
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Arvids Godjuks arvids.godj...@gmail.com
wrote:
пт, 13 Мар 2015, 23:01, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com:
Pavel,
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Pavel Kouřil pajou...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com
wrote:
But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the
only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best
chance
for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the
different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating
users.
Hello,
I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode:
- It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't
think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or the
declare() one, because both of them are bad.
- It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it
does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups.
- Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would probably
be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most
people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the
language.
(There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I
currently have.)
Regards
Pavel Kouril
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Hang on. This is not the time to nitpick things in various RFCs that
have already been answered time and time again.
An ini setting would be insane because taking an app that works on one
machine and putting it on another would completely break the app.
Hello anything using Composer, hello any CMS, hello any system moving
to a new host that doesn't let you change ini settings, or you dont
know how.
A declare statement in the top of the file changing how that file
handles things is hardly a problem, and is exactly how a lot of other
languages do things. Hello JavaScript.
It seems like you didn't read anything now you're just saying it's
bad a lot. Please don't do that.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
That declare thing with the removal of block-aware declare(){} kills one
of the fundamental optimizations you can do for large PHP projects -
compacting most used files into one single big file and caching it. And
you
never had to care what the files are - just splice it all together and
let
autoload handle the rare cases. With single declare statement I effectivly
have to scan all the code, remove declare statements and choose a mode
globally. Well, it might work for a small project, but in a big project
with multiple teams or even multiple vendors doing different parts
The same is true for namespaces, but Symfony for example works around it
by introducing block syntax.
You can just remove the declares, during concatenation, or move a single
strict to the top.
Also this is not a fundamental optimization (I'd argue never has been)
anymore since opcache is in core of PHP since 5.5
At this point I have only swearing words for the proposing persons and
supporters.
It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you
can't fix it with some PHP code.
You really had to fuck it all up for us, the userland developers, didn't
you?
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
And actually, I would plea for a moment of sanity right now.
As far as i'm concerned - the RM for the 7.0 had to step in a long time ago
and said guys, I do not accept any typehint proposals into the 7.0
release, work it out and come back for 7.1.
Because if this would be a commercial development before a release -
feature would be scrapped and re-sheduled for later release.
Why? Because the clusterf**k happened at RFC level already, the development
itself is going to be haisty considering the timeline and definetly being
bombarded by the protesters, countless critisism and so on. It is going to
affect the projects. And that is a bad thing. Look past the damn typehint
RFC's and just try to asses the big picture. Right now it's a tunnel vision
for many on the list.
сб, 14 Мар 2015, 1:29, Arvids Godjuks arvids.godj...@gmail.com:
Opcode caches just cache the compiled code - you still need to load the
code into the engine, do checks for file modifications and other stuff.
Yes, if you are a badass and have full controll, all that can be solved.
Reality, however, is one big f***up. I had to fix a lot of weird stuff,
including the cases where there was some kind of opcode cache and it still
was horrible. Or shared enviroment. Or just bad code. You havent seen
FTP/SFTP project deployment in last few years? I envy you. You work for
godly clients. Or it's just that you are a rockstar in a rockstar friendly
company with resources and will to do things right. But most of us a far
lower in the food chain. We have to deal with things that would give you
nightmares.
Or take most of Open Source PHP code - besides a few high quality projects
like Symfony and the bunch, it's bad. And I know one instanse of an Open
Source project with PHP part that will go full retard mode with strict
typehints no matter the cost or consiquences. Probably will end up killing
the company behind it in the long run.
There is one thing that you learn when you actually go beyound the coding:
never ever give user a choise - he doesn't know what he wants anyway. He
thinks he needs one thing, in reality tests show absolutelly different
stuff. You need to make a decision select a way you wana do it. It newer
works out with choises - people always make a mess.
сб, 14 Мар 2015, 1:11, Benjamin Eberlei kont...@beberlei.de:
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Arvids Godjuks arvids.godj...@gmail.com
wrote:
пт, 13 Мар 2015, 23:01, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com:
Pavel,
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Pavel Kouřil pajou...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara
ircmax...@gmail.com
wrote:
But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the
only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best
chance
for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the
different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating
users.
Hello,
I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode:
- It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't
think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or
the
declare() one, because both of them are bad.
- It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it
does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups.
- Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would
probably
be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most
people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the
language.
(There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I
currently have.)
Regards
Pavel Kouril
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Hang on. This is not the time to nitpick things in various RFCs that
have already been answered time and time again.
An ini setting would be insane because taking an app that works on one
machine and putting it on another would completely break the app.
Hello anything using Composer, hello any CMS, hello any system moving
to a new host that doesn't let you change ini settings, or you dont
know how.
A declare statement in the top of the file changing how that file
handles things is hardly a problem, and is exactly how a lot of other
languages do things. Hello JavaScript.
It seems like you didn't read anything now you're just saying it's
bad a lot. Please don't do that.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
That declare thing with the removal of block-aware declare(){} kills
one
of the fundamental optimizations you can do for large PHP projects -
compacting most used files into one single big file and caching it. And
you
never had to care what the files are - just splice it all together and
let
autoload handle the rare
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
Pavel, On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Pavel Kouřil pajou...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com wrote: But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best chance for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating users. Hello, I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode: - It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or the declare() one, because both of them are bad. - It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups. - Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would probably be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the language. (There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I currently have.) Regards Pavel Kouril -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Hang on. This is not the time to nitpick things in various RFCs that have already been answered time and time again. An ini setting would be insane because taking an app that works on one machine and putting it on another would completely break the app. Hello anything using Composer, hello any CMS, hello any system moving to a new host that doesn't let you change ini settings, or you dont know how. A declare statement in the top of the file changing how that file handles things is hardly a problem, and is exactly how a lot of other languages do things. Hello JavaScript. It seems like you didn't read anything now you're just saying it's bad a lot. Please don't do that. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
Arvids,
That declare thing with the removal of block-aware declare(){} kills one of
the fundamental optimizations you can do for large PHP projects - compacting
most used files into one single big file and caching it. And you never had
to care what the files are - just splice it all together and let autoload
handle the rare cases. With single declare statement I effectivly have to
scan all the code, remove declare statements and choose a mode globally.
Well, it might work for a small project, but in a big project with multiple
teams or even multiple vendors doing different parts
http://news.php.net/php.internals/83356 -- That's why it isn't
supported. I tried. I wanted to. It's just not feasible. If you want
to find a way, go for it. We can then add that mode later. Awesome!
However, if you really want to merge files together, great. Strip out
the strict mode and change everything to weak. It will all still work
100% **unless** you relied on the exception (which you shouldn't be
doing anyway).
And that's not even mentioning that with opcache the benefits of
merging files together is diminished significantly. But if you want
to, there's still a way.
At this point I have only swearing words for the proposing persons and
supporters.
It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you
can't fix it with some PHP code.
You really had to fuck it all up for us, the userland developers, didn't
you?
Sorry, but I now question the wisdom and sanity of most new PHP folks.
Because the old once see the danger and vote no. And everyone just thinks
they act up. Well, you wrong. I will nit be surprised if they just leave the
project for good after this.
Please remain respectful. That section was *way* out of line, and you
really must know that.
Anthony
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Arvids Godjuks arvids.godj...@gmail.com
wrote:
пт, 13 Мар 2015, 23:01, Philip Sturgeon pjsturg...@gmail.com:
Pavel,
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Pavel Kouřil pajou...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com
wrote:
But for today, I firmly believe that the Dual-Mode proposal is the
only one that stands a chance of passing. I think it's the best chance
for the language, and it's the only one that tries to unite the
different usages of PHP into a single group, rather than alienating
users.
Hello,
I see (as a userland developer) these problems with dual mode:
- It is a setting that changes the language's behavior; I don't
think that it matters whether or not it would be an INI setting or the
declare() one, because both of them are bad.
- It does not unite different usages of PHP into a single group; it
does exactly the opposite, splitting PHP usage into TWO groups.
- Once this dual mode would be introduced to PHP, there would probably
be no way of removing it later without massive BC break, once most
people would realize that it is really awful to have it in the
language.
(There's probably more of them, but these are the biggest issues I
currently have.)
Regards
Pavel Kouril
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Hang on. This is not the time to nitpick things in various RFCs that
have already been answered time and time again.
An ini setting would be insane because taking an app that works on one
machine and putting it on another would completely break the app.
Hello anything using Composer, hello any CMS, hello any system moving
to a new host that doesn't let you change ini settings, or you dont
know how.
A declare statement in the top of the file changing how that file
handles things is hardly a problem, and is exactly how a lot of other
languages do things. Hello JavaScript.
It seems like you didn't read anything now you're just saying it's
bad a lot. Please don't do that.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
That declare thing with the removal of block-aware declare(){} kills one
of the fundamental optimizations you can do for large PHP projects -
compacting most used files into one single big file and caching it. And you
never had to care what the files are - just splice it all together and let
autoload handle the rare cases. With single declare statement I effectivly
have to scan all the code, remove declare statements and choose a mode
globally. Well, it might work for a small project, but in a big project
with multiple teams or even multiple vendors doing different parts
The same is true for namespaces, but Symfony for example works around it by
introducing block syntax.
You can just remove the declares, during concatenation, or move a single
strict to the top.
Also this is not a fundamental optimization (I'd argue never has been)
anymore since opcache is in core of PHP since 5.5
At this point I have only swearing words for the proposing persons and
supporters.
It's magic_quotes and register_globals all over again, but this time you
can't fix it with some PHP code.
You really had to fuck it all up for us, the userland developers, didn't
you?
Sorry, but I now question the wisdom and sanity of most new PHP folks.
Because the old once see the danger and vote no. And everyone just thinks
they act up. Well, you wrong. I will nit be surprised if they just leave
the project for good after this.
This list gets pretty intense, but this kind of swearing and attack on
persons is certainly not acceptable in my book.
Like every feature, this is optional.
[PHP-DEV] A plea for unity on scalar types
All, There's something that I think needs to be said about the now 3 scalar type proposals. Please bear with me, there's a lot to say here. I'll try to keep it as brief as I can. I've been working off-and-on on scalar types for over 3 years. I've officially proposed 3 proposals and have discussed and played with many more versions. After I left, Andrea mentioned to me that she wanted to pick one up. So I helped her. I worked with her for months on what was ultimately withdrawn (https://wiki.php.net/rfc/scalar_type_hinting_with_cast). At that point I resigned to the fact that it wasn't possible to do scalar types in PHP. Andrea proved me wrong. When she came up with the dual-mode RFC in 0.3, it was the first proposal that either of us worked on that even had a shot of passing. She put it up to vote slightly prematurely, but the votes were pretty clear that it was basically what people wanted, but with a few minor issues. When she abandoned it, I picked it up. Partly because I wanted to see it pass (I think it's the right proposal), but partly because I didn't want to see her efforts go in vain by people who didn't even understand the why. So let me explain what I learned through that experience. Why I chose to pick the dual mode RFC back up. Why I predicted the coercive mode RFC would do so badly. And why I currently predict the basic scalar type RFC, if voted on, would fail as well. It comes down to what people want. It became quite clear early on, that no matter what rule set you choose, there is a non-trivial amount of people who want something else. This is life. However, in this case, there are basically 3 camps: 1) Those that want purely weak types (what we have with ZPP now). 2) Those that want stronger weak types (similar to what the coercive mode proposal does, but slightly stricter) 3) Those that want strict types. Each of these three camps has a non-trivial amount of members (at least 20-30%). Personal interactions that I've had suggest to me that the largest camp is for strong types, but even if it wasn't, it's still not trivial. So what does that mean? Well, it means that no single mode proposal can pass. Because any single mode proposal is 100% guaranteed to alienate the needs/wants of at least 1, but more likely 2 of those groups. The current dual mode proposal is the only one that I've seen that doesn't alienate groups. It gives the purely weak camp what they want (and by default too). It gives the strict type camp what they want. And it lets the stronger-weak-types group choose between the two as they want/need. Is it a perfect proposal? No. But it works for everyone, rather than against them. Zeev mentioned on twitter yesterday that he wants to at least try and understand why people are voting no for it and turn it around with respect to his coercive proposal. Despite the fact that many people have said in threads why they voted against it, let me say it again here, really simply. There are two fundamental reasons people are voting against it: 1) Backwards Compatibility and 2) It alienates the needs of a portion of voters. And there's a deeper problem. In trying to clean up the conversions, it partially makes it stricter than some want (the purely weak group) and doesn't go far enough for those that want stronger weak types. So it sits as a worst-of-all-worlds. Bob's pure-weak proposal (which is basically 1/2 of the dual mode RFC) seems like a great compromise. It's simple, easy to use, easy to understand, and can be part of a stepping stone to future modes (a strict mode can always be added later). But that ignores that it doesn't give 2/3 of the people what they want/need. It ignores that it actually makes it *less* likely for those 2/3 to get what they want/need. Without the support of 2 of the groups, it's unlikely that anything will ever pass. And a future RFC to introduce a strict mode (after we have a weak mode) would be unlikely to pass since it serves no benefit to the weak group. So what effectively would happen is you'd get at least 1 of the groups (the strict group) to vote against it. And you'd get at least a few from the stronger-weak types group to vote against it. Meaning that it would be hard to get it passed. Scalar types are a **hard** problem. Not technically, but politically, because so many people use PHP in different ways. And everyone thinks their way is the one true way. The dual-mode proposal is the only one on the table that currently addresses the different needs of different people. Does that mean that a single-mode compromise is impossible? I wouldn't use the word impossible, but I certainly would use improbable. We've been talking about this for **years**. The chances are quite high that if a good compromise existed, it would have been found. Instead, every compromise that we've seen simply throws away the needs of an entire group. Should we clean up ZPP's parsing rules? Absolutely. 100 apples should definitely become an error. But the way
