Re: [PHP-DEV] [alexander.schrij...@gmail.com: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON]
Yes, there is a reason: As it was explained before, lemon would not display token names but actual token values. So instead of Unexpected T_PAABLAH it would say Unexpected '::' ... hello, value of some tokens is not what would be expected either. Think a bit about T_STRING for example. There should be a smart algorithm implemented. BTW bison-createdparsercan use a callback (yytnamerr) to replace tokens with something human-readable. Why not use it? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Stan Vass [mailto:sv_for...@fmethod.com] Verzonden: maandag 1 november 2010 10:19 Aan: internals@lists.php.net Onderwerp: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON Urgentie: Laag It's amazing to me this has become such a long discussion. The facts are simple: 1) People don't ask for the other parse errors even half as often as they as for T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM 2) They do so because it looks like gibberish to them, so it looks unlikely to be a common thing you can Google, nor it gives something recignizable to start with 3) Yes, to all who are not sure, more people know English than Hebrew. 4) Yes, we all acknowledge it's an easter egg joke that refers to the creators of PHP. But that particular joke has outworn its welcome in the community after repeatedly causing support issues. T_DOUBLE_COLON already exists as a constant in userland, so the jump to it won't be an epic change. Let's do it as a proof that we're not a nerd gridlock bound to argue forever about even the most minor and obviously positive changes PHP can implement. Stan Vass -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Come on people, what exactly is the problem with a once-in-a-lifetime investment of 5 seconds of your time to google some stupid error message. Something you, as a developer, spend your life doing. Please, stop complaining about a minor (yes, it is minor, use the fricking search engine!) annoyance and accept php's heritage. And please understand, I do get where all the opponents are coming from, it is an unnecessary complicated error message (I agree that the language argument is a moot point, in the world of internet and programming in particular, English is the standard), but you google it once in your life and then you 'forget' about it. And if you can't remember the meaning of something like that, I hardly doubt you'd be a decent programmer anyway. Regards, Dennis Haarbrink
Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
Agreed, and really - my experience is that googling non-standard error message usually give instant result. Googling for a common error message could become a big time investment pointing to different software even if you point to search engine for what software to look. 2010/11/1 Dennis Haarbrink den...@born05.nl: -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Stan Vass [mailto:sv_for...@fmethod.com] Verzonden: maandag 1 november 2010 10:19 Aan: internals@lists.php.net Onderwerp: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON Urgentie: Laag It's amazing to me this has become such a long discussion. The facts are simple: 1) People don't ask for the other parse errors even half as often as they as for T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM 2) They do so because it looks like gibberish to them, so it looks unlikely to be a common thing you can Google, nor it gives something recignizable to start with 3) Yes, to all who are not sure, more people know English than Hebrew. 4) Yes, we all acknowledge it's an easter egg joke that refers to the creators of PHP. But that particular joke has outworn its welcome in the community after repeatedly causing support issues. T_DOUBLE_COLON already exists as a constant in userland, so the jump to it won't be an epic change. Let's do it as a proof that we're not a nerd gridlock bound to argue forever about even the most minor and obviously positive changes PHP can implement. Stan Vass -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Come on people, what exactly is the problem with a once-in-a-lifetime investment of 5 seconds of your time to google some stupid error message. Something you, as a developer, spend your life doing. Please, stop complaining about a minor (yes, it is minor, use the fricking search engine!) annoyance and accept php's heritage. And please understand, I do get where all the opponents are coming from, it is an unnecessary complicated error message (I agree that the language argument is a moot point, in the world of internet and programming in particular, English is the standard), but you google it once in your life and then you 'forget' about it. And if you can't remember the meaning of something like that, I hardly doubt you'd be a decent programmer anyway. Regards, Dennis Haarbrink -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 10:58:36AM +0100, Dennis Haarbrink wrote: Come on people, what exactly is the problem with a once-in-a-lifetime investment of 5 seconds of your time to google some stupid error message. Something you, as a developer, spend your life doing. Please, stop complaining about a minor (yes, it is minor, use the fricking search engine!) annoyance and accept php's heritage. And please understand, I do get where all the opponents are coming from, it is an unnecessary complicated error message (I agree that the language argument is a moot point, in the world of internet and programming in particular, English is the standard), but you google it once in your life and then you 'forget' about it. And if you can't remember the meaning of something like that, I hardly doubt you'd be a decent programmer anyway. Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing this you'r annoying thousands of people. This isn't an easteregg either. This is a lesson as someone explained. eastereggs aren't visible to normal users. If you want teach people about Hebrew you obviously can do so. I don't see how that is the goal of a programming language, but that is an other issue. But don't come along and insult us with this bullshit. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote: Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing this you'r annoying thousands of people. Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch. I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message. The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected. Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run... Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
+1 This solves lots of other problems we have and will have in the future. -- James Butler Sent from my iPhone On 1 Nov 2010, at 12:00, Stefan Marr p...@stefan-marr.de wrote: On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote: Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing this you'r annoying thousands of people. Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch. I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message. The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected. Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run... Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote: On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote: Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing this you'r annoying thousands of people. Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch. I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message. The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected. Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run... Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No, thank you. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
-Original Message- From: Alexander Schrijver [mailto:alexander.schrij...@gmail.com] Sent: 01 November 2010 12:19 To: Stefan Marr Cc: Dennis Haarbrink; Stan Vass; internals@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote: On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote: Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing this you'r annoying thousands of people. Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch. I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message. The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected. Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run... Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No, thank you. Err, the entire point is that it won't matter what the underlying token is. The error as seen can be anything you want it to be, or at least you can have a fight about what the new message looks like and i'm sure there won't really be a compelling reason for it to be in hebrew (unless localized). Please grow up... -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] [alexander.schrij...@gmail.com: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON]
Oops, should've sent this to the list too. - Forwarded message from Alexander Schrijver alexander.schrij...@gmail.com - Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:28:59 +0100 From: Alexander Schrijver alexander.schrij...@gmail.com To: James Butler james.but...@edigitalresearch.com Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:23:07PM +, James Butler wrote: -Original Message- From: Alexander Schrijver [mailto:alexander.schrij...@gmail.com] Sent: 01 November 2010 12:19 To: Stefan Marr Cc: Dennis Haarbrink; Stan Vass; internals@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote: On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote: Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing this you'r annoying thousands of people. Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch. I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message. The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected. Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run... Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No, thank you. Err, the entire point is that it won't matter what the underlying token is. The error as seen can be anything you want it to be, or at least you can have a fight about what the new message looks like and i'm sure there won't really be a compelling reason for it to be in hebrew (unless localized). Please grow up... It's the policy: There are two reasons this term will stay. It is a tip of the hat to the amount of PHP work that came out of Israel, and it is a good reminder that there are a lot of other languages in the world. People whose first language is not English, myself included, are forced to work with unfamiliar terms every day. I wouldn't mind having a few more non-English identifiers in PHP actually. Well, and a third reason, I like it. There is some reason this policy will change after i write this new tokenizer? - End forwarded message - -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [alexander.schrij...@gmail.com: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON]
On Nov 01 13:30:58, Alexander Schrijver wrote: Oops, should've sent this to the list too. - Forwarded message from Alexander Schrijver alexander.schrij...@gmail.com - Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:28:59 +0100 From: Alexander Schrijver alexander.schrij...@gmail.com To: James Butler james.but...@edigitalresearch.com Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:23:07PM +, James Butler wrote: -Original Message- From: Alexander Schrijver [mailto:alexander.schrij...@gmail.com] Sent: 01 November 2010 12:19 To: Stefan Marr Cc: Dennis Haarbrink; Stan Vass; internals@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote: On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote: Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing this you'r annoying thousands of people. Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch. I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message. The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected. Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run... Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No, thank you. Err, the entire point is that it won't matter what the underlying token is. The error as seen can be anything you want it to be, or at least you can have a fight about what the new message looks like and i'm sure there won't really be a compelling reason for it to be in hebrew (unless localized). Please grow up... It's the policy: There are two reasons this term will stay. It is a tip of the hat to the amount of PHP work that came out of Israel, and it is a good reminder that there are a lot of other languages in the world. People whose first language is not English, myself included, are forced to work with unfamiliar terms every day. I wouldn't mind having a few more non-English identifiers in PHP actually. Well, and a third reason, I like it. There is some reason this policy will change after i write this new tokenizer? Yes, there is a reason: As it was explained before, lemon would not display token names but actual token values. So instead of Unexpected T_PAABLAH it would say Unexpected '::' ... Best, - End forwarded message - -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Etienne Kneuss http://www.colder.ch -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] [alexander.schrij...@gmail.com: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON]
On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 01:36:24PM +0100, Etienne Kneuss wrote: It's the policy: There are two reasons this term will stay. It is a tip of the hat to the amount of PHP work that came out of Israel, and it is a good reminder that there are a lot of other languages in the world. People whose first language is not English, myself included, are forced to work with unfamiliar terms every day. I wouldn't mind having a few more non-English identifiers in PHP actually. Well, and a third reason, I like it. There is some reason this policy will change after i write this new tokenizer? Yes, there is a reason: As it was explained before, lemon would not display token names but actual token values. So instead of Unexpected T_PAABLAH it would say Unexpected '::' ... But the lesson Rasmus was telling us about would go away. Yet, this is one of the reasons the token is being kept. I am confused. Are you telling me this is a lesson for the programmers to be learned? Not for the users? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:23 PM, James Butler james.but...@edigitalresearch.com wrote: -Original Message- From: Alexander Schrijver [mailto:alexander.schrij...@gmail.com] Sent: 01 November 2010 12:19 To: Stefan Marr Cc: Dennis Haarbrink; Stan Vass; internals@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote: On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote: Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing this you'r annoying thousands of people. Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch. I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message. The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected. Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run... Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No, thank you. Err, the entire point is that it won't matter what the underlying token is. The error as seen can be anything you want it to be, or at least you can have a fight about what the new message looks like and i'm sure there won't really be a compelling reason for it to be in hebrew (unless localized). Please grow up... We don't know that when will the lemon switch be merged With that merged, what will be used for the double colon error? If we keep the constant as is, but show some the correct english error message, then this can be a solution. But with that, the whole educational and easter egg thingy will be gone IMO, so if we chose that path, we could rename the T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM right now. If we keep the hebrew error message(so that will be shown in the logs, etc.) after the lemon switch, then I can't see why should Alexander work on that issue, when it's not going to solve the problem? Tyrael
Re: [PHP-DEV] [alexander.schrij...@gmail.com: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON]
On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Alexander Schrijver alexander.schrij...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 01:36:24PM +0100, Etienne Kneuss wrote: It's the policy: There are two reasons this term will stay. It is a tip of the hat to the amount of PHP work that came out of Israel, and it is a good reminder that there are a lot of other languages in the world. People whose first language is not English, myself included, are forced to work with unfamiliar terms every day. I wouldn't mind having a few more non-English identifiers in PHP actually. Well, and a third reason, I like it. There is some reason this policy will change after i write this new tokenizer? Yes, there is a reason: As it was explained before, lemon would not display token names but actual token values. So instead of Unexpected T_PAABLAH it would say Unexpected '::' ... But the lesson Rasmus was telling us about would go away. Yet, this is one of the reasons the token is being kept. I am confused. Are you telling me this is a lesson for the programmers to be learned? Not for the users? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Ive just brought up in the original thread, maybe we should go back there. Tyrael
Re: [PHP-DEV] [alexander.schrij...@gmail.com: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON]
On Nov 01 13:43:14, Alexander Schrijver wrote: On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 01:36:24PM +0100, Etienne Kneuss wrote: It's the policy: There are two reasons this term will stay. It is a tip of the hat to the amount of PHP work that came out of Israel, and it is a good reminder that there are a lot of other languages in the world. People whose first language is not English, myself included, are forced to work with unfamiliar terms every day. I wouldn't mind having a few more non-English identifiers in PHP actually. Well, and a third reason, I like it. There is some reason this policy will change after i write this new tokenizer? Yes, there is a reason: As it was explained before, lemon would not display token names but actual token values. So instead of Unexpected T_PAABLAH it would say Unexpected '::' ... But the lesson Rasmus was telling us about would go away. Yet, this is one of the reasons the token is being kept. I am confused. Are you telling me this is a lesson for the programmers to be learned? Not for the users? I believe that what Rasmus meant is that a simple _renaming_ of this token was not justified. I don't think that he would be against a parser change that would bring much more to the table, solely because it would make this gem disappear (at least I hope). But then again, even though Felipe did an amazing job with this lemon switch, few problems still prevent this change from happening in a near future. Best, -- Etienne Kneuss http://www.colder.ch -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
