Re: JDEE installer?
Either Web Start or a standalone JAR would work. I'm not sure about trying this with an applet, mainly because of security restrictions. (Web Start has security restrictions as well, but you don't have to deal with the possibility of a buggy browser JVM.) Artur's script is a good start on this. Some of the features I'd like to see in the installer, in addition to those stated, are: -) Backup of old versions -) Rollback to older versions -) Command-line and GUI interface (for those X-impaired people) -) Proxy support (maybe) Figuring out which bundles are updated could be accomplished by looking in a central file or searching a remote filesystem, although I favor the former. Any other ideas? Here's one: How about renaming or deleting legacy JDEE variables not used in the new JDEE package? I just went through this very annoying process while customizing jde-key-bindings and trying to save my changes for the current session. Emacs kept prompting me of Invalid functions (for jde-complete-at-point-menu, for example) still mapped to keys. I think that Klaus Berndl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), author of ECB has a hack to do this. Another feature of the Installer could the creation of an install log file. If it's going to mess around in the .emacs, then it should log all steps and make a backup of the original .emacs before it changes it. Ciao, Daniel _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: JDEE installer?
I think that a user-friendly install-shield-like GUI wizard for the Windows folks would be very nice. You know, with check-boxes and Next buttons. :) Heh, feel free to create such one. I am the one who hates GUI wizards. If I would love them you can be sure I would prefer to use JBuilder like whole company where I work, instead of emacs+JDEE. Artur -- Artur Hefczyc [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wttools.sourceforge.net/ http://geotools.sourceforge.net/
Re: JDEE installer?
Althought we're getting off the topics of installers, I say I agree, but that doesn't mean GUI's. If emacs people like GUI's they wouldn't be emacs people. But we need better UI for jde in general. For example, what's with the C-c C-v keybindings? This is only one key off from the C-x C-c binding which exits emacs. Not good. And in the debugger, is there anyone who has not rebound jde-bug-step-over? No way anyone is typing C-c C-z n just to go to the next line! When debugging, things should work like in edebug - editing is disabled, n for next, c for continue, e for eval. This would help a lot. Daniel Hegyi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that a user-friendly install-shield-like GUI wizard for the Windows folks would be very nice. You know, with check-boxes and Next buttons. :) Heh, feel free to create such one. I am the one who hates GUI wizards. If I would love them you can be sure I would prefer to use JBuilder like whole company where I work, instead of emacs+JDEE. My personal opinion is that Emacs should become a little more user-friendly, otherwise IDEs like JBuilder and WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer WILL take over, and Emacs will become a notepad on steroids. I don't know about you, but I have a tough time remembering just a few function names, not to mention the several hundred that JDEE/Emacs offer. GUI isn't such a bad thing. Let's face it, we're living in the 21st Century. Daniel _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: JDEE installer?
Daniel Hegyi writes: I think that a user-friendly install-shield-like GUI wizard for the Windows folks would be very nice. You know, with check-boxes and Next buttons. :) Heh, feel free to create such one. I am the one who hates GUI wizards. If I would love them you can be sure I would prefer to use JBuilder like whole company where I work, instead of emacs+JDEE. My personal opinion is that Emacs should become a little more user-friendly, otherwise IDEs like JBuilder and WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer WILL take over, and Emacs will become a notepad on steroids. I don't know about you, but I have a tough time remembering just a few function names, not to mention the several hundred that JDEE/Emacs offer. GUI isn't such a bad thing. All the key JDEE commands are listed on the JDEE menu, together with their key bindings. All the settings are in customization buffers that function like dialog boxes. So I don't know what you're talking about. If you're memorizing and typing in commands, I've wasted my time creating the JDEE, my aim being to provide the equivalent of an IDE in Emacs, including GUI features like menus and dialog boxes. If there is a command that you use frequently that is not on a menu, please let me know. You should be able to use the JDEE without ever having to enter a command. Most of the 100s of functions to which you refer are part of the implementations of a relatively small set of commands with key and menu bindings. You cannot and should not be invoking most of the JDEE functions directly. - Paul Let's face it, we're living in the 21st Century. Daniel _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: JDEE installer?
My personal opinion is that Emacs should become a little more user-friendly, otherwise IDEs like JBuilder and WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer WILL take over, and Emacs will become a notepad on steroids. I don't know about you, but I have a tough time remembering just a few function names, not to mention the several hundred that JDEE/Emacs offer. GUI isn't such a bad thing. Let's face it, we're living in the 21st Century. Maybe I am too old for modern 21st century apps. Maybe not. I even used Linux with kernel version below 1.0.0, don't exactly remember which one. During my development career I used many advanced IDEs: Borland Pascal, Delphi, Borland C++ builder, JBuilder and some other. At last I fallen in love to emacs and after starting programming in Java to JDEE for emacs. Look, Emacs shouldn't be user friendly because it isn't for users. Emacs is for developers so it should be developers friendly. And it is! I assume you are Java programmer. If you have troubles with remembering just few function names how can you be good Java programmer? Java has much more classes and methods. And each new JDK release offers next sets of packages with classes. Development is all about learning. If just don't like learning change your duty. Actually I am not going to force you use emacs+jdee or other IDEs or change your programming habits. Emacs+JDEE is for java developers as well as other Java Builders. They are simply for different kind of developers. Don't change emacs! I love it as is. If you don't like it switch to different IDE. PS. Please, please don't send copy of your e-mails to my address. I read jdee mailing list regularly so I don't need copies of each mail. regards Artur Hefczyc -- Artur Hefczyc [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wttools.sourceforge.net/ http://geotools.sourceforge.net/
keybindings (was Re: JDEE installer?)
Andrew Hyatt writes: For example, what's with the C-c C-v keybindings? This is only one key off from the C-x C-c binding which exits emacs. Not good. I think the point of these keybindings is that they are easy to type. In any case, you are right about C-x C-c being easy to inadvertantly type. It is quite easy to hit the c and x and the same time when doing any number of commands that start with either C-x or C-c (which most emacs modes make heavy use of). One way to fix the problem of inadvertently exiting emacs is to add set the variable confirm-kill-emacs to something like y-or-n-p so that it always asks you before exiting. --Peter
Re: JDEE installer?
[This response is off topic, but it is hoped that it is useful to someone.] On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 12:02:25PM -0800, Andrew Hyatt spake thus: For example, what's with the C-c C-v keybindings? This is only one key off from the C-x C-c binding which exits emacs. Not good. I agree with the point Andrew is making, but I have stumbled into C-x C-c plenty of times not because it is close to C-c C-v, but because I am a clumsy typist. A work-around for this key sequence exiting out of emacs is to keep a shell buffer open all the time (M-x shell); if a shell buffer is open with a shell subprocess, when I accidentally type C-x C-c, emacs gives the following prompt in the minibuffer (before closing any buffers): Active processes exist; kill them and exit anyway? (yes or no) I just type no and continue on as before. -Al -- Alan D. Salewski, Programmer Charles Jones, LLC
Re: JDEE installer?
Daniel Hegyi writes: I think that a user-friendly install-shield-like GUI wizard for the Windows folks would be very nice. You know, with check-boxes and Next buttons. :) Heh, feel free to create such one. I am the one who hates GUI wizards. If I would love them you can be sure I would prefer to use JBuilder like whole company where I work, instead of emacs+JDEE. My personal opinion is that Emacs should become a little more user-friendly, otherwise IDEs like JBuilder and WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer WILL take over, and Emacs will become a notepad on steroids. I don't know about you, but I have a tough time remembering just a few function names, not to mention the several hundred that JDEE/Emacs offer. GUI isn't such a bad thing. All the key JDEE commands are listed on the JDEE menu, together with their key bindings. All the settings are in customization buffers that function like dialog boxes. So I don't know what you're talking about. Just today I couldn't find code completion, i.e., jde-complete-at-point/jde-complete-in-line. (I'm using JDE2.2.9BETA12) Daniel _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: JDEE installer?
My personal opinion is that Emacs should become a little more user-friendly, otherwise IDEs like JBuilder and WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer WILL take over, and Emacs will become a notepad on steroids. I don't know about you, but I have a tough time remembering just a few function names, not to mention the several hundred that JDEE/Emacs offer. GUI isn't such a bad thing. Let's face it, we're living in the 21st Century. Maybe I am too old for modern 21st century apps. Maybe not. I even used Linux with kernel version below 1.0.0, don't exactly remember which one. During my development career I used many advanced IDEs: Borland Pascal, Delphi, Borland C++ builder, JBuilder and some other. At last I fallen in love to emacs and after starting programming in Java to JDEE for emacs. Look, Emacs shouldn't be user friendly because it isn't for users. Emacs is for developers so it should be developers friendly. And it is! I assume you are Java programmer. If you have troubles with remembering just few function names how can you be good Java programmer? I don't know whether I'm a good Java programmer, but I disagree with you! It's about the algorithm and architecture, not about memorizing the API. That's ridiculous. That's how I did it with various other languages in grad school as well. The syntax is secondary. I can very quickly look up any method and class in the documentation or via code-completion. :) Java has much more classes and methods. And each new JDK release offers next sets of packages with classes. Each new JDK release doesn't change 99% of my coding habits. Not very interested in the new java MP3 API set. Development is all about learning. ...the tools that you need, not all that exist. If just don't like learning change your duty. Actually I am not going to force you use emacs+jdee or other IDEs or change your programming habits. Emacs+JDEE is for java developers as well as other Java Builders. They are simply for different kind of developers. Don't change emacs! Emacs IS changing. The question is, is the change fast enough. Ciao, Daniel _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: JDEE installer?
Gee, I really think you are being unreasonable here. I think JDE could improve in user friendliness. A lot of things in emacs-land can. That doesn't mean to switch to GUI's or anything. But JDE SHOULD be user-friendly. You can have user-friendly emacs programs, look at BBDB. It's usually not significantly more difficult to make things easier than it is to make them harder. It just takes a willingness to listen to user feedback, and a perception of what interactions seem to be pain points. If JDE was not friendly, people wouldn't use it, they would use Java-mode instead. Some people at my company do exactly this. I'm not saying JDE's UI is very bad, I actually think it's one of the better UI's in emacs-land. However, I think there is room for improvement. An example of a ui problem: I was showing my boss how to use JDE. I showed him how to attach to a running Java process and step through the program. When he asked how to see local variables, I paused for a second. I do this all the time, but I made my own keybinding for it. So I looked through the menu and found JDebug-Display-Local Variables. When we did this, though, it wasn't what I wanted, and he wasn't very impressed. I had to assure him that there was a very nice way to view local variables, I just could't find it at the moment. I later found it was at JDebug-Show Buffer-Locals. I think things that cause confusion like this are a real problem. If I can't find the command, it's as much a problem as if the command doesn't work. To me, there would be no difference. For this case, perhaps that Display menu item should be renamed something else, although I don't use it enough to know what would be more appropriate. Artur Hefczyc [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My personal opinion is that Emacs should become a little more user-friendly, otherwise IDEs like JBuilder and WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer WILL take over, and Emacs will become a notepad on steroids. I don't know about you, but I have a tough time remembering just a few function names, not to mention the several hundred that JDEE/Emacs offer. GUI isn't such a bad thing. Let's face it, we're living in the 21st Century. Maybe I am too old for modern 21st century apps. Maybe not. I even used Linux with kernel version below 1.0.0, don't exactly remember which one. During my development career I used many advanced IDEs: Borland Pascal, Delphi, Borland C++ builder, JBuilder and some other. At last I fallen in love to emacs and after starting programming in Java to JDEE for emacs. Look, Emacs shouldn't be user friendly because it isn't for users. Emacs is for developers so it should be developers friendly. And it is! I assume you are Java programmer. If you have troubles with remembering just few function names how can you be good Java programmer? Java has much more classes and methods. And each new JDK release offers next sets of packages with classes. Development is all about learning. If just don't like learning change your duty. Actually I am not going to force you use emacs+jdee or other IDEs or change your programming habits. Emacs+JDEE is for java developers as well as other Java Builders. They are simply for different kind of developers. Don't change emacs! I love it as is. If you don't like it switch to different IDE. PS. Please, please don't send copy of your e-mails to my address. I read jdee mailing list regularly so I don't need copies of each mail. regards Artur Hefczyc -- Artur Hefczyc [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wttools.sourceforge.net/ http://geotools.sourceforge.net/
Re: keybindings (was Re: JDEE installer?)
Peter Dobratz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Andrew Hyatt writes: For example, what's with the C-c C-v keybindings? This is only one key off from the C-x C-c binding which exits emacs. Not good. I think the point of these keybindings is that they are easy to type. In any case, you are right about C-x C-c being easy to inadvertantly type. It is quite easy to hit the c and x and the same time when doing any number of commands that start with either C-x or C-c (which most emacs modes make heavy use of). One way to fix the problem of inadvertently exiting emacs is to add set the variable confirm-kill-emacs to something like y-or-n-p so that it always asks you before exiting. Yes, I see you are correct. This is not a unique problem with JDE. I have in fact turned on that C-x C-c keybinding because of this. I do still think that shorter keybindings might be nicer, though. And for debugging they are essential - they should be just keys (I have mine bound to f10, f11, etc) --Peter
RE: JDEE installer?
Is anybody working on a JDEE installer that would get ALL the required and optional packages (that the user selects in the setup process, such as ECB, Jalopy) and would set all the necessary settings (such as jde-bug-jdk-directory, jde-jdk-registry) and some optional settings, such as '(jde-import-auto-sort t)? The XEmacs windows installer installs all of the required JDE packages (ECB and Jalopy are not packaged as yet) using a GUI wizard. It is open source and used by many, many people to install XEmacs also. It is a fork of the original cygwin installer and I would suggest it is a good starting point for anyone wanting to do a GUI installer (or make the XEmacs one better). wrt to GUI features I have been working on integrating toolbar support for JDEbug into JDE and a gdbsrc mode for JDEE (i.e. gdb keystrokes in your editing buffer which becomes read-only while you are debugging). I have also added support for true GUI selection boxes for things that use efc (i.e. a true GUI version of efc). All of these things are XEmacs specific. I expect to check them into the JDEE CVS repository hopefuly before Christmas. I started on a setup wizard for JDEE based on XEmacs GUI features but found I had not implemented enough GUI features, so turned down my ambition somewhat... andy
Re: JDEE installer?
Andrew Hyatt writes: Althought we're getting off the topics of installers, I say I agree, but that doesn't mean GUI's. If emacs people like GUI's they wouldn't be emacs people. But we need better UI for jde in general. For example, what's with the C-c C-v keybindings? This is only one key What would you suggest? The JDEE cannot just arbitrarily step in and assign key bindings. Most of the simple key bindings have long since been assigned to core Emacs functionaliy. Give me a break. I chose C-c as the first prefix because it is the prefix especially reserved for noncore packages. I chose C-v because it is right next to C-c on most keyboards on the same row and to the right which is comfortable for me. If you can find a better, more convenient subspace of the Emacs key binding space that does not already conflict with core features, suggest it and I'll reassign the JDEE commands to them. Further, please note that I went to the trouble of providing a customizable key binding buffer, which means that you can rebind keys without knowing anything more than how to edit a custom buffer. I knew right from the start that the default key bindings would be unacceptable to many users. That's why I made it so easy to rebind the keys to simpler combinations that are already assigned to other commands but that you feel you can live without. off from the C-x C-c binding which exits emacs. Not good. And in the debugger, is there anyone who has not rebound jde-bug-step-over? No way anyone is typing C-c C-z n just to go to the next line! I've rebound the most frequently used jdb and JDEbug debug commands to function keys. When debugging, things should work like in edebug - editing is disabled, n for next, c for continue, e for eval. This would help a lot. This is a good idea that has occurred to me. The problem is getting the time to implement it. For me, it was so easy to rebind the step and breakpoint commands to function keys as on the GUI debuggers to which I am accustomed that I never felt the incentive to provide this functionality, given the other demands on my time and the higher priority which users seem to have for other features, such as completion. - Paul Daniel Hegyi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that a user-friendly install-shield-like GUI wizard for the Windows folks would be very nice. You know, with check-boxes and Next buttons. :) Heh, feel free to create such one. I am the one who hates GUI wizards. If I would love them you can be sure I would prefer to use JBuilder like whole company where I work, instead of emacs+JDEE. My personal opinion is that Emacs should become a little more user-friendly, otherwise IDEs like JBuilder and WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer WILL take over, and Emacs will become a notepad on steroids. I don't know about you, but I have a tough time remembering just a few function names, not to mention the several hundred that JDEE/Emacs offer. GUI isn't such a bad thing. Let's face it, we're living in the 21st Century. Daniel _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: JDEE installer?
Andrew Hyatt writes: Gee, I really think you are being unreasonable here. I think JDE could improve in user friendliness. A lot of things in emacs-land can. That doesn't mean to switch to GUI's or anything. But JDE SHOULD be user-friendly. You can have user-friendly emacs programs, look at BBDB. It's usually not significantly more difficult to make things easier than it is to make them harder. It just takes a willingness to listen to user feedback, and a perception of what interactions seem to be pain points. If JDE was not friendly, people wouldn't use it, they would use Java-mode instead. Some people at my company do exactly this. I'm not saying JDE's UI is very bad, I actually think it's one of the better UI's in emacs-land. However, I think there is room for improvement. An example of a ui problem: I was showing my boss how to use JDE. I showed him how to attach to a running Java process and step through the program. When he asked how to see local variables, I paused for a second. I do this all the time, but I made my own keybinding for it. So I looked through the menu and found JDebug-Display-Local Variables. When we did this, though, it wasn't what I wanted, and he wasn't very impressed. I had to assure him that there was a very nice way to view local variables, I just could't find it at the moment. I later found it was at JDebug-Show Buffer-Locals. I think things that cause confusion like this are a real problem. If I can't find the command, it's as much a problem as if the command doesn't work. To me, there would be no difference. For this case, perhaps that Display menu item should be renamed something else, although I don't use it enough to know what would be more appropriate. Display-Local Variables came before the local variables buffer. It was intended as a stop gap. It requires that you get the object id of the variable whose value you want to dislay. My intention ultimately was to have it display the value of the variable at point. I never got around to finishing it. There are a lot of unfinished features in the JDEE. So many features, so little time. - Paul Artur Hefczyc [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My personal opinion is that Emacs should become a little more user-friendly, otherwise IDEs like JBuilder and WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer WILL take over, and Emacs will become a notepad on steroids. I don't know about you, but I have a tough time remembering just a few function names, not to mention the several hundred that JDEE/Emacs offer. GUI isn't such a bad thing. Let's face it, we're living in the 21st Century. Maybe I am too old for modern 21st century apps. Maybe not. I even used Linux with kernel version below 1.0.0, don't exactly remember which one. During my development career I used many advanced IDEs: Borland Pascal, Delphi, Borland C++ builder, JBuilder and some other. At last I fallen in love to emacs and after starting programming in Java to JDEE for emacs. Look, Emacs shouldn't be user friendly because it isn't for users. Emacs is for developers so it should be developers friendly. And it is! I assume you are Java programmer. If you have troubles with remembering just few function names how can you be good Java programmer? Java has much more classes and methods. And each new JDK release offers next sets of packages with classes. Development is all about learning. If just don't like learning change your duty. Actually I am not going to force you use emacs+jdee or other IDEs or change your programming habits. Emacs+JDEE is for java developers as well as other Java Builders. They are simply for different kind of developers. Don't change emacs! I love it as is. If you don't like it switch to different IDE. PS. Please, please don't send copy of your e-mails to my address. I read jdee mailing list regularly so I don't need copies of each mail. regards Artur Hefczyc -- Artur Hefczyc [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wttools.sourceforge.net/ http://geotools.sourceforge.net/
Re: JDEE installer?
On Wed, 04 Dec 2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Emacs IS changing. The question is, is the change fast enough. As far as I can tell, Gnus, in its infancy, used to be horrible. Other newsreaders blew it away. Now, it does things other newsreaders can't dream of doing. Emacs had the issue that it is written in an Elisp Virtual Machine, while its Java IDE development needed to talk to a Java Virtual Machine. I believe most popular java editors are written in java so they didn't have this issue. But, now, the JDEE is close to on-par with the best IDE's for java while giving the java development experience the Emacs flavor, which we can all appreciate. So, in the same view as Gnus, I can't imagine how powerful the JDE will be a year from now for coding java. -- Galen Boyer
RE: JDEE installer?
Andy Piper writes: Is anybody working on a JDEE installer that would get ALL the required and optional packages (that the user selects in the setup process, such as ECB, Jalopy) and would set all the necessary settings (such as jde-bug-jdk-directory, jde-jdk-registry) and some optional settings, such as '(jde-import-auto-sort t)? The XEmacs windows installer installs all of the required JDE packages (ECB and Jalopy are not packaged as yet) using a GUI wizard. It is open source and used by many, many people to install XEmacs also. It is a fork of the original cygwin installer and I would suggest it is a good starting point for anyone wanting to do a GUI installer (or make the XEmacs one better). wrt to GUI features I have been working on integrating toolbar support for JDEbug into JDE and a gdbsrc mode for JDEE (i.e. gdb keystrokes in your editing buffer which becomes read-only while you are debugging). I have also added support for true GUI selection boxes for things that use efc (i.e. a true GUI version of efc). All of these things are XEmacs specific. I expect to check them into the JDEE CVS repository hopefuly before Christmas. I've considered the Cygwin installer. In fact, I have its source on my system. My concern is that it won't work for Unix and Linux users. I'd like to have a solution that works for all platforms. That is why I am leaning toward a Java-based solution, perhaps a jar that could be downloaded from the JDEE website and executed on the user's system. I took a brief look at Web Start. One problem might be that it requires some server support. This might be an issue for Sunsite Denmark. I've also thought about Emacs Lisp, i.e., a jde-install.el file that a user could download that defines a jde-install command. My concern is that this approach require only Emacs and jde-install.el. Nothing else. This would assume that the user's OS provides the tools needed to download stuff from the Internet, e.g., ftp. Is ftp available on all Windows systems. I'm not sure. Does Emacs need an external file compression utility to extract files from tar and zip files? Such a utility might not be available on every system. The more self-contained and platform independent the tool the better. Java is the only approach that I'm fairly confident would meet this requirement. - Paul I started on a setup wizard for JDEE based on XEmacs GUI features but found I had not implemented enough GUI features, so turned down my ambition somewhat... andy
