Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
Ming H. (<2097632...@qq.com>) kirjutas 30.08.2021 kell 05:17: > -- Original -- > From: "Mihkel Tõnnov" ; > Send time: Monday, Aug 30, 2021 2:46 AM > > > >> To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually > >> saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and > >> traditional Chinese." > >> > > Thanks for the explanation. > > > > I found that there's an (attempted) explanation also in Help: > > "Common terms are words that have the same meaning in traditional and > > simplified Chinese but are written with different characters." (key-ID > ujmVB > > in current master) > > However, this makes no sense to me -- what am I missing? > > In addition to Cheng-Chia Tseng's explanation, I'll offer two analogies > with > other languages. Think "apartment vs. flat" and "cookie vs. biscuit" in > American > English and British English, or east European languages that can be either > written > in Latin script or Cyrillic script (I remember Serbian is like this?). > > The difference between simplified and traditional Chinese is somewhere in > between the two scenarios above. As for the Chinese conversion feature in > LibreOffice, the cases covered by this "common terms" list are more like > "apartment vs. flat", as the cases like "Latin vs. Cyrillic" are more > easily done > by rule-based replacement in large scale, and don't need this special > "common > terms" list. > Thank you all for your explanations. I played around with the feature and understand now what it does – and looking back at all your examples, they make perfect sense now as well. However, by now I'm also quite sure that the English term for this is rather wrong (and as a consequence, so are many/most of the translations): the core of the meaning is not the converted terms being "common" (either as "frequent" or "shared"), but instead them consisting of more than one character, although apparently single-character substitutions can be defined as well (which contradicts what Help says [1]). As an example that might be easier for us non-Chinese speakers to wrap our heads around: if we continue the BrE vs. AmE analogy of "flat vs. apartment", one could add an entry pair of "flatmate – roommate" in order to not get "flatmate" turned into "apartmentmate" by the program's own logic... Could we consider renaming this term to "Compound words" in LibO? [1] https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/shared/01/06010600.html?=SHARED=UNIX Best regards, Mihkel Estonian translator -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
-- Original -- From: "Mihkel Tõnnov" ; Send time: Monday, Aug 30, 2021 2:46 AM > >> To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually >> saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and >> traditional Chinese." >> > Thanks for the explanation. > > I found that there's an (attempted) explanation also in Help: > "Common terms are words that have the same meaning in traditional and > simplified Chinese but are written with different characters." (key-ID ujmVB > in current master) > However, this makes no sense to me -- what am I missing? In addition to Cheng-Chia Tseng's explanation, I'll offer two analogies with other languages. Think "apartment vs. flat" and "cookie vs. biscuit" in American English and British English, or east European languages that can be either written in Latin script or Cyrillic script (I remember Serbian is like this?). The difference between simplified and traditional Chinese is somewhere in between the two scenarios above. As for the Chinese conversion feature in LibreOffice, the cases covered by this "common terms" list are more like "apartment vs. flat", as the cases like "Latin vs. Cyrillic" are more easily done by rule-based replacement in large scale, and don't need this special "common terms" list. Hope this helps, Ming -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
Mihkel Tõnnov 於 2021年8月30日 週一，上午2:47寫道： > Cheng-Chia Tseng () kirjutas 27.08.2021 kell 02:51: > >> >> Yeah. It is used for Simplified and Traditional Chinese Conversion. >>> >>> Common terms are shared in both languages, like Fire “火”, Air “風”, Earth >>> “土” ,Water “水” ,etc. >>> >>> However, different terms referring to the same thing exist between China >>> and Taiwan. >>> For example, potato is “土豆” in simplified Chinese while “馬鈴薯” in >>> traditional Chinese. >>> >>> >> To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually >> saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and >> traditional Chinese." >> > > Thanks for the explanation. > > I found that there's an (attempted) explanation also in Help: > "Common terms are words that have the same meaning in traditional and > simplified Chinese but are written with different characters." (key-ID ujmVB > in current master) > However, this makes no sense to me -- what am I missing? > It’s like describing the same thing with different aspects. Taken the elephants as an example , we can name them with some very special features, like “four pillars,” “two sharp horns,” “long nose,” etc. As to the potato here, “土豆” which used in simplified Chinese means “earth bean,” and “馬鈴薯” in traditional Chinese means “horse bell yam” literally. This kind of naming variants also exist within different regions of Chinese speaking people besides the writing system. > Thanks, > Mihkel > >> -- Cheers, by Cheng-Chia Tseng -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
Cheng-Chia Tseng () kirjutas 27.08.2021 kell 02:51: > > Yeah. It is used for Simplified and Traditional Chinese Conversion. >> >> Common terms are shared in both languages, like Fire “火”, Air “風”, Earth >> “土” ,Water “水” ,etc. >> >> However, different terms referring to the same thing exist between China >> and Taiwan. >> For example, potato is “土豆” in simplified Chinese while “馬鈴薯” in >> traditional Chinese. >> >> > To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually > saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and > traditional Chinese." > Thanks for the explanation. I found that there's an (attempted) explanation also in Help: "Common terms are words that have the same meaning in traditional and simplified Chinese but are written with different characters." (key-ID ujmVB in current master) However, this makes no sense to me -- what am I missing? Thanks, Mihkel > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
Thanks, this is a very good explanation. Tuomas Kevin Suo kirjoitti 27.8.2021 3:22: As explained in the Help page: *"Translate common terms* Converts words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms. After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by character." The "Common Terms" list can be found on the UI if you open "Tools > Language > Chinese Conversion" where there is a "Edit Terms" button. Clicking on the button will open an "Edit Dictionary" dialog where you can define your Common Terms. For instance, if I've defined the following in the Common Terms list: 中国 --> 美国 (meaning: China --> United States) Then if I type (or copy paste) the word 中国 into Writer and check the "Translate common terms" opinion in the Chinese Conversion dialog, the conversion result would be "美国". That is to say, the "Common Terms" means the List of Common Terms dictionary you have defined by yourself (which is blank by default). In other words, it has nothing to do with "shared". Please correct me if I am wrong. Kevin Suo -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
> Yeah. It is used for Simplified and Traditional Chinese Conversion. > > Common terms are shared in both languages, like Fire “火”, Air “風”, Earth > “土” ,Water “水” ,etc. > > However, different terms referring to the same thing exist between China > and Taiwan. > For example, potato is “土豆” in simplified Chinese while “馬鈴薯” in > traditional Chinese. > > To be more specific and clear, the UI "Common terms" here is actually saying "Daily used common terms, but not the same in both simplified and traditional Chinese." -- Cheers, by Cheng-Chia Tseng -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
Kevin Suo 於 2021年8月27日 週五 上午8:24寫道： > As explained in the Help page: > > *"Translate common terms* > Converts words with two or more characters that are in the list of > common terms. After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted > character by character." > > The "Common Terms" list can be found on the UI if you open "Tools > > Language > Chinese Conversion" where there is a "Edit Terms" button. > Clicking on the button will open an "Edit Dictionary" dialog where you > can define your Common Terms. > > For instance, if I've defined the following in the Common Terms list: > 中国 --> 美国 > (meaning: China --> United States) > > Then if I type (or copy paste) the word 中国 into Writer and check the > "Translate common terms" opinion in the Chinese Conversion dialog, the > conversion result would be "美国". > > That is to say, the "Common Terms" means the List of Common Terms > dictionary you have defined by yourself (which is blank by default). In > other words, it has nothing to do with "shared". > Kevin Suo is also right about this. The "common terms" here means the terms dictionary conversion between simplified and traditional Chinese. For example. You can set Term as "土豆 " and Mapping as "馬鈴薯" for referring to potatoes. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
Mihkel Tõnnov 於 2021年8月27日 週五，上午5:26寫道： > Hi, > > Tuomas Hietala () kirjutas 25.08.2021 kell 19:10: > > > Hello Sophie, > > > > sophi kirjoitti 25.8.2021 18:56: > > > below, there is the extended tip: > > > > > context="chineseconversiondialog|extended_tip|commonterms">Converts > > > words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms. > > > After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by > > > character. > > > So I'd say frequently occurring terms that are in the list. > > > But I don't write Chinese, so my understanding of the context may be > > > wrong :) > > > > That would be my guess too, but in at least Finnish and Swedish it's > > currently translated the other way, i.e. "mutually shared". Are those > > translations based on guessing or knowledge? I have no idea. > > > > Duplicating my comment from Weblate here as well: > I think it has to be "common" as in "frequent, occurring often" – the other > meaning would make little sense in this context: if a term is common (as in > "shared") between Traditional and Simplified script, then what is there to > convert? Actual Chinese speakers, please correct me if I'm wrong :) Yeah. It is used for Simplified and Traditional Chinese Conversion. Common terms are shared in both languages, like Fire “火”, Air “風”, Earth “土” ,Water “水” ,etc. However, different terms referring to the same thing exist between China and Taiwan. For example, potato is “土豆” in simplified Chinese while “馬鈴薯” in traditional Chinese. > > Anyway, thanks for raising this – if my reasoning is correct, then it means > the current translation in my language has been wrong for > gods-know-how-many years. > > Best, > Mihkel > Estonian translator > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > -- Cheers, by Cheng-Chia Tseng -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
As explained in the Help page: *"Translate common terms* Converts words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms. After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by character." The "Common Terms" list can be found on the UI if you open "Tools > Language > Chinese Conversion" where there is a "Edit Terms" button. Clicking on the button will open an "Edit Dictionary" dialog where you can define your Common Terms. For instance, if I've defined the following in the Common Terms list: 中国 --> 美国 (meaning: China --> United States) Then if I type (or copy paste) the word 中国 into Writer and check the "Translate common terms" opinion in the Chinese Conversion dialog, the conversion result would be "美国". That is to say, the "Common Terms" means the List of Common Terms dictionary you have defined by yourself (which is blank by default). In other words, it has nothing to do with "shared". Please correct me if I am wrong. Kevin Suo 在 2021/8/25 下午11:36, Tuomas Hietala 写道: Hello all, Does anyone know in which sense is the word "common" used in the following string? https://translations.documentfoundation.org/translate/libo_ui-master/svxmessages/en/?checksum=904e3236f1d69307 In other words, is the meaning "translate mutually shared terms", "translate frequently occurring terms", or something else entirely? As you can see, there are many possible meanings: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/common Regards, Tuomas Hietala -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
Hi, Tuomas Hietala () kirjutas 25.08.2021 kell 19:10: > Hello Sophie, > > sophi kirjoitti 25.8.2021 18:56: > > below, there is the extended tip: > > > context="chineseconversiondialog|extended_tip|commonterms">Converts > > words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms. > > After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by > > character. > > So I'd say frequently occurring terms that are in the list. > > But I don't write Chinese, so my understanding of the context may be > > wrong :) > > That would be my guess too, but in at least Finnish and Swedish it's > currently translated the other way, i.e. "mutually shared". Are those > translations based on guessing or knowledge? I have no idea. > Duplicating my comment from Weblate here as well: I think it has to be "common" as in "frequent, occurring often" – the other meaning would make little sense in this context: if a term is common (as in "shared") between Traditional and Simplified script, then what is there to convert? Actual Chinese speakers, please correct me if I'm wrong :) Anyway, thanks for raising this – if my reasoning is correct, then it means the current translation in my language has been wrong for gods-know-how-many years. Best, Mihkel Estonian translator -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
Hello Sophie, sophi kirjoitti 25.8.2021 18:56: below, there is the extended tip: Converts words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms. After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by character. So I'd say frequently occurring terms that are in the list. But I don't write Chinese, so my understanding of the context may be wrong :) That would be my guess too, but in at least Finnish and Swedish it's currently translated the other way, i.e. "mutually shared". Are those translations based on guessing or knowledge? I have no idea. Tuomas -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] The word "common" in Chinese conversion dialog
Hi Tuomas, Le 25/08/2021 à 17:36, Tuomas Hietala a écrit : > Hello all, > > Does anyone know in which sense is the word "common" used in the > following string? > https://translations.documentfoundation.org/translate/libo_ui-master/svxmessages/en/?checksum=904e3236f1d69307 > > > In other words, is the meaning "translate mutually shared terms", > "translate frequently occurring terms", or something else entirely? if you look at the link provided: https://git.libreoffice.org/core/+/master/svx/uiconfig/ui/chineseconversiondialog.ui#180 below, there is the extended tip: Converts words with two or more characters that are in the list of common terms. After the list is scanned, the remaining text is converted character by character. So I'd say frequently occurring terms that are in the list. But I don't write Chinese, so my understanding of the context may be wrong :) Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier so...@libreoffice.org GSM: +33683901545 IRC: soph Foundation coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
