Re: Identify included files

[Wols Lists]

On 22/05/20 02:08, David Wright wrote:
> On Thu 21 May 2020 at 17:54:38 (+0100), antlists wrote:
>> On 21/05/2020 16:36, David Wright wrote:
>>> On Thu 21 May 2020 at 13:57:00 (+0100), antlists wrote:

> 
>> I have tried accidentally
>> to do things like "lilypond voiceTrombone.ily" and it blew up quite
>> spectacularly. I would expect most of mine, and in truth most other
>> peoples', .ily files to blow up if fed straight to lilypond.
> 
> Big deal. I won't ask what's in voiceTrombone.ily.

A variable declaration. You know - EXACTLY THE SAME as C programmers
often stick in .h files ...
> 
>> And if they do compile, the output probably isn't much use ... :-)
> 

>>
>> Does bar.c contain a main{} definition?
> 
> Why would it?

Why WOULDN'T it?

You said that bar.c contained a load of functionality that you wanted in
foo.c. How am I supposed to know whether bar.c is a program or a library?
> 
>>> Now we can compile foo.c (which #includes bar.h) over and over while
>>> debugging it, all without ever recompiling bar.c. foo.c knows all it
>>> needs to know about bar.c because of bar.h's declarations.
>>
>> Can you now link bar.o into foo? I honestly don't know - I don't know
>> how a linker will behave if fed two main{} functions ... ?
> 
> This isn't too hard. As I wrote, bar.c has functions, and bar.h has
> declarations for those functions so that compiling foo.c can check
> the calls of those functions without ever seeing bar.c (ie without
> recompiling bar.c over and over).
> 
>>> I now have a suite.ly that typesets my Suite for flute and piano.
>>> It \includes nine files: flute{I,II,III}.ily, piano{I,II,III}.ily
>>> (the notes), and flute-part.ily, piano-part.ily and complete-score.ily,
>>> (my \score templates). It also \includes {marks,dyns,fingers}.ily that
>>> contain LP code for my preferred styles of markings, dynamics and fingering.
>>>
>>> I have a file, suite.dep, which contains the information that suite.ly
>>> depends on these files to produce three targets, {flute,piano,suite}.pdf
>>> The same file might also indicate that I need just flute{I,II,III}.ily,
>>> flute-part.ily and {marks,dyns,fingers}.ily for just a flute.pdf.
>>>
>>> What do I write in a top-level theFlute.ly file to produce this
>>> flute.pdf and how does it benefit from the suite.sep information?
>>> How do I use this information profitably, in the way that bar.h did?

I don't have a clue. Your workflow sounds completely weird and totally
incomprehensible to me. You know what? I don't give a monkeys - your
world view is what you choose to see. You see things different to me!
>>>
>>> ¹ I'm abbreviating with shell's "brace expansion" notation.
>>>
>> Now we get to the meat of the matter. You've put bar.c's
>> *declarations* into bar.h. Does lilypond even have declarations? Also,
>> it's perfectly normal practice to put *definitions* in .h files -
>> static variables, macros, inline functions, etc etc.
>>
>> I put most of my lilypond variable *definitions* into .ily files. Yup,
>> .h files *tend* to contain declarations not definitions, but as I say,
>> I don't think lilypond syntax has  declarations?
>>
>> So yes, am I right in thinking you view .ily files as closer to .o
>> files? With lilypond closer to a linker than a compiler?
> 
> No.

Okay.
> 
>> At the end of the day, I see it as .h files can contain declarations,
>> .ily files contain declarations. .h files are included, .ily files are
>> included. Some languages (like lilypond) are monolithic and don't
>> really have the concept of libraries. So I find it extremely easy to
>> view .ly/.ily as being similar to .c/.h. Not the same, because
>> lilypond is not gcc ... :-)
>>
>> There's no one absolute view - you see things different to me, doesn't
>> mean you (or me) is right.
> 
> Look¹, I'm not the one making this analogy. I'm trying to make any
> sense of it, and why this "dependency file" is being built.

I didn't make it either! I just happen to totally agree with it.
> 
> How do I use .ily files—almost all of them are definitions of
> layouts, score structures, paper formats, variables' default values,
> my abbreviations, and scheme code where it's wrapped in LP syntax.
> They reside in a library directory that also has three subdirectories:
> a collection of systematically named paper-margin files, a load of
> boilerplate for exhaustively constructing MIDI file voice combinations,
> and raw .scm files (like swing.scm).
> 
> One or two .ily files consist of source that's been factorised out of
> the .ly file(s) that calls them. So, for example, there are festal
> hymns that have words for the different seasons, so most of the
> seasonal versions can be factorised out into an .ily file and then
> inserted at the appropriate points in the main .ly file. There's
> no saving in volume of compilation, only duplication.

WHICH IS EXACTLY A REASON FOR .h FILES! Removing duplication is a good
way of removing errors (or making them easier to fix :-)
> 
> I haven't used any 

Re: Fonts for text

[Wols Lists]

On 26/04/20 09:20, Noeck wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 26.04.20 um 09:13 schrieb Thomas Morley:
>> In "Times New Roman" the "Roman" is taken as font-family of font
>> "Times New", which does not exists, thus a fall-back font is used.
> 
> What? :)
> 
> (Well, I think I know some background why, but that is still really
> unexpected.)
> 
What I call a chainsaw bug, not a papercut bug ...

Okay, I've only really skimmed the thread, but if you pass a valid font
name and it mis-interprets it as a font-family, that's nasty.

Down to the usual argument about "is a space part of a token, or a token
separator?", I guess ...

Cheers,
Wol

Re: notes in text

[Wols Lists]

On 23/04/20 18:42, bobr...@centrum.is wrote:
> I'm looking for a way to include some free standing notes in a line of text.  
> Specifically, I want a pair of beamed 16th, a '=' sign, and then three beamed 
> 16th notes, indicating that two 16ths equal three 16ths.  I'd also like to 
> use it in a \tempo marking.  I searched nabble but did not find what I was 
> after.  Can someone point me in the right direction?
> 
Search the docs?

By default, the \tempo does the tempo followed optionally by a text
description. I wanted a text description followed by the tempo, and I
believe the documentation does tell you how to do that, which is exactly
what I think you want.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Wols Lists]

On 30/03/20 10:15, Dr Nicholas Bailey wrote:
> I don't trust Zoom anyway.  Why has it got more than 2 open file 
> descriptors? What's it doing  with my files??
> 
> $ lsof | grep -i zoom | wc -l
> 20811

I can't find what I was looking for, but this was mentioned recently on
LWN. Apparently it's down to naive usage of glibc ... :-(

I think it was this article https://lwn.net/Articles/814535/ , you'll
probably find it was blindly searching for a whole bunch of config files
are those descriptors are dentries for files that don't exist.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: Chord options in leadsheets

[Wols Lists]

On 22/02/20 09:11, hendry.mich...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> I use Lilypond to prepare jazz leadsheets. Most of the time, this is
> straightforward, but the screenshot illustrates three additions I'd like to
> be able to include.
> 
> 1. The ability to provide alternative chords (shown in parentheses above the
> first two bars).

I tried to do this, and it didn't get accepted. I struggle with Scheme
and the more esoteric lilypond syntax. That said, I did get it working,
what it needed was clean-up.

I attach the patches, if you or someone else would like to take it on
and get it in ...

Cheers,
Wol
>From 60972eafba7f58fc0792529efc4e7b5f269f4cd1 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Carl Sorensen 
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:52:28 -0600
Subject: [PATCH] Add capo chord names

Got capo-handler working properly
---
 lily/chord-name-engraver.cc   |4 ++--
 scm/chord-name.scm|   28 
 scm/define-context-properties.scm |2 ++
 3 files changed, 32 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/lily/chord-name-engraver.cc b/lily/chord-name-engraver.cc
index d0ced5a..2442cdb 100644
--- a/lily/chord-name-engraver.cc
+++ b/lily/chord-name-engraver.cc
@@ -124,8 +124,8 @@ Chord_name_engraver::process_music ()
 
   pitches = scm_sort_list (pitches, Pitch::less_p_proc);
 
-  SCM name_proc = get_property ("chordNameFunction");
-  markup = scm_call_4 (name_proc, pitches, bass, inversion,
+  SCM capo_proc = ly_lily_module_constant ("capo-handler");
+  markup = scm_call_4 (capo_proc, pitches, bass, inversion,
   context ()->self_scm ());
 }
   /*
diff --git a/scm/chord-name.scm b/scm/chord-name.scm
index 79b0189..98506d0 100644
--- a/scm/chord-name.scm
+++ b/scm/chord-name.scm
@@ -170,3 +170,31 @@ FOOBAR-MARKUP) if OMIT-ROOT is given and non-false.
 	 (alist (map chord-to-exception-entry elts)))
 (filter (lambda (x) (cdr x)) alist)))
 
+(define-public (capo-handler pitches bass inversion context)
+  (let ((chord-function
+  (ly:context-property context 'chordNameFunction 'jazz-chord-names))
+(capo-pitch (ly:context-property context 'capoPitch '(
+(if (not capo-pitch)
+(chord-function pitches bass inversion context)  ;; call the chordNameFunction as of old
+(let* ((new-pitches   ;; else transpose the pitches and do the chord twice
+(map (lambda (p)
+   (ly:pitch-transpose p capo-pitch))
+ pitches))
+   (new-bass
+ (if (ly:pitch? bass)
+ (ly:pitch-transpose bass capo-pitch)
+ '()))
+   (new-inversion
+ (if (ly:pitch? inversion)
+ (ly:pitch-transpose inversion capo-pitch)
+ '()))
+   (capo-markup
+ (make-parenthesize-markup
+   (chord-function new-pitches new-bass new-inversion context)))
+   (name-markup (chord-function pitches bass  inversion context))
+  (capo-vertical (ly:context-property context 'capoVertical #f)))
+  (if capo-vertical
+  (make-column-markup (list name-markup capo-markup))
+  (make-line-markup (list name-markup
+  (make-hspace-markup 1)
+  capo-markup)))
diff --git a/scm/define-context-properties.scm b/scm/define-context-properties.scm
index dab5211..d17f72f 100644
--- a/scm/define-context-properties.scm
+++ b/scm/define-context-properties.scm
@@ -135,6 +135,8 @@ that normally end on beats.")
  (beatStructure ,list? "List of @code{baseMoment}s that are combined
 to make beats.")
 
+ (capoPitch ,ly:pitch? "The pitch to transpose chords down by when using the capo.")
+ (capoVertical ,boolean? "Whether to display actual and transposed pitches above each other or not.")
  (chordChanges ,boolean? "Only show changes in chords scheme?")
  (chordNameExceptions ,list? "An alist of chord exceptions.
 Contains @code{(@var{chord} . @var{markup})} entries.")
-- 
1.7.2.2

>From 5da87456d11663f10ff2aab0e3e2ea63b6b42c36 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Wol 
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 23:42:34 +0100
Subject: [PATCH 3/3] Documentation for the capoPitch chordname property

---
 Documentation/notation/chords.itely |   27 +++
 1 files changed, 27 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)

diff --git a/Documentation/notation/chords.itely b/Documentation/notation/chords.itely
index 1109075..12e9390 100644
--- a/Documentation/notation/chords.itely
+++ b/Documentation/notation/chords.itely
@@ -506,6 +506,33 @@ Rests passed to a @code{ChordNames} context will cause the
 }
 @end lilypond
 
+@cindex Transposing guitar chords for capo
+
+If the @code{capoPitch} property is set, then the chords will additionally be printed
+transposed for a guitar with the 

Re: QtWebEngine vs. Ubuntu 16.04

[Wols Lists]

On 29/12/19 04:30, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> thanks for the reply. I have learned from painful experience that it
> seems better to just reinstall the OS completely, avoiding any issues
> with the upgrade, and restore user data from backup. I have made all
> preparations for that and am trying to do it (freshly install 18.04).

In that case, if you haven't already, make sure you put /home on its own
partition. That will make things a lot easier as the re-install won't go
anywhere near your home directories ...

Cheers,
Wol

Re: transpositions within a global key setting.

[Wols Lists]

On 10/12/19 06:41, Urs Liska wrote:
> 
> Am 09.12.19 um 15:24 schrieb N. Andrew Walsh:
>> Hi List,
>>
>> let us say I have a piece where I want to specify the key signature
>> once for all instruments. I have something like the following:
>>
>> \version = 2.19.82
>> global= {
>>  \key f \minor
>>  \time 4/8
>>   }
>> %% (and whatever other settings I want)
>>
>> oDAMusic = \transpose a c {
>>   \relative c''' {
>> \key as \minor
>> {{MUSIC}}
>>   }
>> }
> 
> 
> What this code is trying to convey (different from your intentions) that
> MUSIC is some music in as minor that is then transposed to f minor.
> 
> What you *need* to say is that the music is in f minor (because that is
> your key signature) but transposed *for display* to as minor. It should
> immediately strike you as odd when you seem to need to write \key as
> \minor when you are not actually having polytonality.
> 
> So the key signature in your music should be the f minor specified in
> the global variable (note BTW that it is not ideal practice naming a
> variable "global"), and you can simply include that *within* the music
> expression rather than in teh staff definition.
> 
> You define the music in the original key and then transpose it to the
> key you want it displayed in. If you are dealing with MIDI output (and
> even if not you should consider it) you can then use \transposition to
> re-transpose the MIDI output without affecting the engraved key and
> pitches (see
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#instrument-transpositions
> (which is where you should have looked at)).
> 
> This is what you want to do:
> 
> \version  "2.19.82"
> global= {
>   \key f \minor
>   \time 4/8
> }
> 
> oDAMusic = 
> \transpose f as 
> \relative c' {
>   \transposition a
>   \global
>   f g as
> }
> 
> \score {
>   \new Staff = "Staff_oboeDA" <<
> \oDAMusic 
>   >>
> }
> 
> HTH
> Urs
> 
As a player in a concert band and a brass band, this is my main use of
lilypond. I don't use midi, and I've never got to grips with
transposition (because I don't use midi?)

So when I'm INPUTing music, I always do

voiceTrombone = \transpose c' c' { notes }
or
voiceTrombone = \transpose c' bf { notes }

This then gives me a music variable with all my notes IN CONCERT PITCH.

When outputting, I then do

\Staff {
   \Clef = bass
   \transpose c' c' {
  \key ...
  \voiceTrombone
  ...
   }
}

or

\Staff {
   \Clef = treble_8
   \transpose bf c' {
  \key ...
  \voiceTrombone
  ...
   }
}

That way, everything is always in concert until the last possible
moment, but also, when I'm looking at the music, I can tell whether it
was copied from a concert or a brass part, and the notes in the .ly file
match the notes on the piece of paper.

(And I *always* transpose, even from C to C, because it tells me I
haven't forgotten anything :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Re: make text span a specified musical interval?

[Wols Lists]

On 25/11/19 03:00, Jace Toronto wrote:
>> Is this what you would like the output to look like or am I misunderstanding?
> 
> Hi Ben,
> 
> Yes, thank you, that is exactly the right look for this particular example.  
> Is there a way to tell the end of the text to align with the barline (or 
> repeat sign in this case), so that different layouts can be accommodated 
> without a hard-coded spacer?
> 
Off the top of my head, would it be possible to create a new voice just
for this, and attach the text to a crotchet spacer-note s4? That's what
I'd try ...

Cheers,
Wol

Re: Set a temporary tempo change

[Wols Lists]

On 18/11/19 01:51, Paolo Prete wrote:
> Aaron,
> 
> that's great.
> I propose to the ML to add the function to the official release. It's
> very helpful when you want to make the midi output more realistic, with
> frequent tempo changes

A lot of music I play has "tempo primo". Personally I don't care about
midi, but this stack mechanism seems almost perfect for implementing
that, too ...

Cheers,
Wol

Re: Polyrythmic Align Bars

[Wols Lists]

On 16/09/19 14:38, sir.teddy.the.fi...@gmail.com wrote:
> The 4/4-Bar needs to be played over the duration of the two 6/8-Bars and
> I want it to realign afterwards to continue both voices with a 6/8 time.
> 
> The 4/4-Part would need to have a different tempo, because if both play
> at the same tempo, they won’t align.
> 
> It is probably harder to write this down than to actually play it, but
> this should be the easiest way to notate this without using tons of tuplets.
> 
>  
> 
> Is something like this possible?
> 
What happens if you just wrap the entire 4/4 bar in a "\times 3/2 {}"
wrapper? I'm sure I've done something like that and it might generate
your "tons of tuplets", but at least you're not typing them all in
individually.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Proportional notation not working as expected.

[Wols Lists]

On 15/09/19 01:51, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> Hi Stefano,
> 
> I work extensively with a New Complexity School composer whose work I
> engrave. I disagree with one of his major concepts, which is that the
> bars should be 3.0 cm wide and represent one second of music. He's
> really insistent on this. Personally I don't believe this helps the
> musicians at all, and music is not graph paper as far as I am concerned,
> speaking as a player.
> 
> I have tried for years to make equal, fixed width bars with proportional
> notation in Lilypond. With his music changing time signature sometimes
> every bar, I am utterly unable to achieve what he wants. The requirement
> is simple - fixed width bars of a specified size.
> 
> I have a vague idea that this concept goes completely against the design
> of the lilypond layout engine, and so it may be stupid to even want
> this. But much as I disagree with the musical justification for this,
> this topic does keep coming up on this list from time to time from
> others also.

From my memories of years ago, yes it does. Lilypond is intended to
produce music that is easy to read.

While "beauty" may seem a subjective concept, there are certain rules in
how we perceive beauty, and beautiful music by its very nature is
usually easy to read.

One of those rules is that ALL LINES SHOULD BE SUBTLY DIFFERENT. That
means, even if you have two lines with exactly the same notes, they
should not render exactly the same. To give a real-world example, my
wife has great difficulty reading books because she can't work out where
lines begin and end. That's why newspapers and others often use columns,
because that makes the end of one line and the beginning of the next
easy to track. Your composer friend is - intentionally or not - making
it very difficult for musicians to read his music because he is making
it very easy for them to get the lines muddled and get lost.

Unfortunately he is falling into the classic manager trap of telling
other people HOW to do their job. As a composer it is his job to tell
the musicians WHAT notes to play. If he insists on telling the musicians
HOW to play them, his music will very rapidly disappear as "unplayable",
unless and until some arranger removes all those silly layout rules.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Producing scores for visually impaired and blind people

[Wols Lists]

On 14/09/19 10:50, David Kastrup wrote:
> Also I would imagine that learning by ear is pretty tricky for ensemble
> rather than solo work. 

Probably no harder than anything else ... I'm bad at remembering stuff,
but years ago I was told I had to learn a piece by heart because we were
playing on stage, and would be blinded by the lights. I don't think we
did a bad job ... :-)

(A brass band, we marched on from the wings, once round the stage, and
fanned out across the front facing the audience. And yes, we couldn't
see a thing ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Detecting first and last pages of a score

[Wols Lists]

On 06/09/19 17:00, David Kastrup wrote:
> I am not saying "it never will be able to do" things like that but the
> mechanisms are not there even in rudimentary form, so the manner in
> which it may be done at some prospective future time is not clear.

Is this the sort of thing the editions engraver could handle? (I've
never used it - I don't know what it can do ...)

Okay, it would be a bit of work for every new document, but it would
avoid having to go in and edit the score every time.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Lyrics extend question

[Wol's lists]

On 29/08/2019 19:53, Jacques Menu wrote:

Hello David,

The other thread was about a score I’m adapting for our oboes band for 
concerts to come.


This lead me to compare how various applications import MusicXML, and I 
found this difference.


And you’re right, my interest is in the algorithms for such import.


My gut feel is that an extender should only extend if the word does not 
lie under both notes. You say you made the font larger, so if the 
melisma belongs under the second note, the text extended, hit it, and 
(like pacman) ate it :-)


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: frescobaldi extensions [was: python-ly, ly.indent]

[Wols Lists]

On 18/08/19 09:00, Urs Liska wrote:
> Hi Mason,
> 
> 18. August 2019 01:05, ma...@masonhock.com schrieb:
> 
>> > On 08/17, Urs Liska wrote:
>> > 
>>> >> ...
>> > 
>> > Thanks. While I personally prefer command line tools, I would consider
>> > turning this into a Frescobaldi extension if that would mean the
>> > difference between something only being useful to me versus potentially
>> > being useful to others. 
> OK. From my experience I'd say it is a worthwile but non-trivial effort to 
> make things generally useful and available. You always have to strike a 
> balance between enabling *arbitrary* use cases and imposing complex 
> configuration "costs" on the user.
> 
When doing this, it's always a good idea to think in terms of the
parochial and the universal. For example, in nature, it is a parochial
fact that mammals have four legs. It is a universal that legs come in
pairs. Confusing the two leads to pain:-(

My favourite computer example is why I love WordPerfect. Word contains
lots of parochial solution, WordPerfect tries to provide universal
solutions with maybe a parochial wizard. Labels, for example. Word
formats a table and populates it with a mailmerge - useless if you then
need to edit the label document. WordPerfect separates the concept of a
physical page (sheet of paper) from a logical page (user layout) and
provides a wizard to format the physical page in terms of logical pages.
So your logical page can be used for all sorts of things, labels, books
etc. And if you want to maintain a document of labels, it's easy - you
can insert pages, delete pages, do what you like.

So take the effort to try and make the fundamentals universal, and then
the users will find the configuration is simple and logical for their
parochial needs.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Alternating text and music

[Wols Lists]

On 26/07/19 12:23, Peter Toye wrote:
> All,
> 
> Thanks very much for all the suggestions. I had asked for an _easy_ way!
> Also, I'm not 100% fussed about the exact layout as it's only for an
> example.

Just a thought ... can't lily chuck out png's? I've never used it, but
if it can chuck out one png per line it'll cost a little bit of effort
to assemble it in your word processor of choice, but you could import
them, and then put the text between the lines.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Bug with transpose in functions

[Wols Lists]

On 12/07/19 19:04, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
> 
>> Functions like transpose act destructively on their argument, so you
>> need a copy or the original will get changed.  [...]
> 
> How can Joe User find out whether a function is acting destructively?
> 
Computer pedant here :-)

Functions do not have side effects, and for any given input they always
return the same output. So if this is a PROPER function, it cannot act
destructively :-)

Obviously it isn't, so it's technically a subroutine that returns a
value. Dunno how you tell the difference, but that's why you get
computer languages where all variables are "write once" - everything is
based on proper functions.

Maybe the documentation should make a point of saying whether functions
are "proper" or "improper". :-)

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Two Hands "Snake"

[tdy lists]

Thank you all for the help!
I manage to do quite what I was lookin to...

With the template of the vibrato:

%%
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mwitmer/LyUtil/master/ly/expressive_markings/vibrato.ly
%% Original author: Mark Witmer
%% Rewritten version by Harm

I tweak the thiknes of the curve and I add a couple of lines to the
variable that I find in another question
%%%
https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/42775/move-a-trill-into-the-stave

so the Snake can get inside the staff.

The where a couple of things I couldn't do.

1 - I couldn't find the way to start de curve from up to down.
2 - When the spanner arrive to a line break it's stops and do not continue
as can be seen in the attached image.



El lun., 8 de jul. de 2019 a la(s) 11:15, tdy lists (tdy.li...@gmail.com)
escribió:

> Wow!
> Thank
>
> I'll try to make something of all these!
> I think Pierre's answer to Andrew is where I find the most acurate answer,
> now I'll extract the fragment needed (ifI can manage), and put it inside
> the staff...
> Let's start tweaking!!!
>
> THANKS again!
>
> El lun., 8 de jul. de 2019 a la(s) 05:54, Andrew Bernard (
> andrew.bern...@gmail.com) escribió:
>
>> Hi Marcos,
>>
>> Here is what I use. I hope you may find it useful. The vibrato function
>> modifies the trill spanner.
>>
>> Picture attached of real use in the piece I engraved (for 7 string
>> guitar, but that's not really relevant).
>>
>> I do not recall where I got this from, but the author is acknowledged.
>> The example along with the function code gives you lots of inspiration.
>> Highly parameterised.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> %==
>>
>> %\version "2.19.44"
>>
>> % vibrato.ly
>> % Author: Mark Witmer
>>
>> % Sets the next trill spanner to draw a waveform with the provided
>> wevelength
>> % and amplitudes. The waveform will go from one amplitude to the next in a
>> % linear fashion.
>>
>> vibrato =
>> #(define-music-function (amplitudes wavelength)
>> (list? number?)
>> #{
>>   \once \override TrillSpanner #'after-line-breaking =
>>   $(lambda (grob)
>>  (ly:grob-set-property! grob 'stencil (makevib grob amplitudes
>> wavelength)))
>> #})
>>
>> #(define adjustvib #t)
>>
>> % Creates the postscript for one system of the vibrato marking
>> #(define (make_ps no-sib? lbound xspan span-so-far amplitude-vector
>> wavelength)
>> (if (or (= xspan -inf.0) (= xspan +inf.0))
>> ""
>> (let ((lbound
>>(cond
>> ((and (> span-so-far 0) adjustvib)
>>  (- lbound 18))
>> (no-sib? (+ lbound 1))
>> (else lbound)))
>>   (last
>>(inexact->exact (floor (/ (+ span-so-far xspan)
>> wavelength)
>>   (format
>>#f "gsave currentpoint translate 0.15 setlinewidth newpath /x
>> ~a def\nx 0.0 moveto\n ~a ~a"
>>lbound
>>(let make-curve
>>  ((current (inexact->exact (floor (/ span-so-far
>> wavelength)
>>  (cond
>>   ((= current (vector-length amplitude-vector)) "")
>>   ((< (vector-ref amplitude-vector current) 0) "")
>>   (else
>>(let ((current-ps
>>   (format
>>#f " x ~a add ~a x ~a add ~a x ~a add 0.0
>> curveto\n/x x ~a add def\n"
>>(exact->inexact (/ wavelength 3))
>>(vector-ref amplitude-vector current)
>>(exact->inexact (* 2 (/ wavelength 3)))
>>(- (vector-ref amplitude-vector current))
>>wavelength
>>wavelength)))
>>  (if (= (+ current 1) last)
>>  current-ps
>>  (format #f "~a~a" current-ps
>>(make-curve (+ 1 current
>>"stroke grestore"
>>
>> % Returns the width of a grob
>> #(define (grob-width grob)
>> (if (or (= (car (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent)) -inf.0)
>> (= (car (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent)) +inf.0))
>> 0
>> (- (cdr (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent))
>>   (car (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent)
>>
>> % Returns the number of ems already travers

Re: Two Hands "Snake"

[tdy lists]

Wow!
Thank

I'll try to make something of all these!
I think Pierre's answer to Andrew is where I find the most acurate answer,
now I'll extract the fragment needed (ifI can manage), and put it inside
the staff...
Let's start tweaking!!!

THANKS again!

El lun., 8 de jul. de 2019 a la(s) 05:54, Andrew Bernard (
andrew.bern...@gmail.com) escribió:

> Hi Marcos,
>
> Here is what I use. I hope you may find it useful. The vibrato function
> modifies the trill spanner.
>
> Picture attached of real use in the piece I engraved (for 7 string
> guitar, but that's not really relevant).
>
> I do not recall where I got this from, but the author is acknowledged.
> The example along with the function code gives you lots of inspiration.
> Highly parameterised.
>
> Andrew
>
> %==
>
> %\version "2.19.44"
>
> % vibrato.ly
> % Author: Mark Witmer
>
> % Sets the next trill spanner to draw a waveform with the provided
> wevelength
> % and amplitudes. The waveform will go from one amplitude to the next in a
> % linear fashion.
>
> vibrato =
> #(define-music-function (amplitudes wavelength)
> (list? number?)
> #{
>   \once \override TrillSpanner #'after-line-breaking =
>   $(lambda (grob)
>  (ly:grob-set-property! grob 'stencil (makevib grob amplitudes
> wavelength)))
> #})
>
> #(define adjustvib #t)
>
> % Creates the postscript for one system of the vibrato marking
> #(define (make_ps no-sib? lbound xspan span-so-far amplitude-vector
> wavelength)
> (if (or (= xspan -inf.0) (= xspan +inf.0))
> ""
> (let ((lbound
>(cond
> ((and (> span-so-far 0) adjustvib)
>  (- lbound 18))
> (no-sib? (+ lbound 1))
> (else lbound)))
>   (last
>(inexact->exact (floor (/ (+ span-so-far xspan)
> wavelength)
>   (format
>#f "gsave currentpoint translate 0.15 setlinewidth newpath /x
> ~a def\nx 0.0 moveto\n ~a ~a"
>lbound
>(let make-curve
>  ((current (inexact->exact (floor (/ span-so-far
> wavelength)
>  (cond
>   ((= current (vector-length amplitude-vector)) "")
>   ((< (vector-ref amplitude-vector current) 0) "")
>   (else
>(let ((current-ps
>   (format
>#f " x ~a add ~a x ~a add ~a x ~a add 0.0
> curveto\n/x x ~a add def\n"
>(exact->inexact (/ wavelength 3))
>(vector-ref amplitude-vector current)
>(exact->inexact (* 2 (/ wavelength 3)))
>(- (vector-ref amplitude-vector current))
>wavelength
>wavelength)))
>  (if (= (+ current 1) last)
>  current-ps
>  (format #f "~a~a" current-ps
>(make-curve (+ 1 current
>"stroke grestore"
>
> % Returns the width of a grob
> #(define (grob-width grob)
> (if (or (= (car (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent)) -inf.0)
> (= (car (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent)) +inf.0))
> 0
> (- (cdr (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent))
>   (car (ly:grob-property grob 'X-extent)
>
> % Returns the number of ems already traversed by the grob's siblings in
> % previous systems
> #(define (width-up-to grob siblings count)
> (if (eq? (car siblings) grob)
> count
> (+ (+ count (width-up-to grob (cdr siblings) count))
>   (grob-width (car siblings)
>
> % Returns the total width of the individual grobs for each system that
> make up
> % the original grob
> #(define (calcfull siblings count)
> (if (eqv? (length siblings) 0)
> count
> (calcfull (cdr siblings) (+ count (grob-width (car siblings))
>
> % Fills a vector of length len with linear interpolations between the
> values
> % found in amplitudes
> #(define (fill-amplitude-vector! amplitude-vector len current-index
> amplitudes)
> (if (> (length amplitudes) 1)
> (let ((start-amplitude (car amplitudes))
>   (end-amplitude (cadr amplitudes))
>   (start-index current-index)
>   (end-index (+ current-index
>(inexact->exact
> (floor (/ (vector-length amplitude-vector)
>  (- len 1)))
>   (do ((n current-index (+ 1 n)))
> ((or (> n (+ start-index end-index))
>  (>= n (vector-length amplitude-vector
> (vector-set! amplitude-vector n
>   (exact->inexact
>(+ start-amplitude
>  (* (/ (- n start-index) (- end-index start-index))
>(- end-amplitude start-amplitude))
>   (fill-amplitude-vector!
>amplitude-vector len 

Re: percent repeats (bug?)

[Wols Lists]

On 04/07/19 00:59, Christopher Heckman wrote:
> In a post/email sent out several months ago, Randy brought up some
> issues about percent repeats over more than two measures. He cited two
> issues, related to where the percent sign is placed and what it looks
> like.
> 
> I would like to add a third: line breaks aren't allowed in the middle
> of a \repeat percent. I discovered this when trying to set up a 4-bar
> repetition of a bass riff. A smaller example is:
> 
> \score {<<
> \new TabStaff { \repeat percent 5 { \repeat unfold 16 { c4 } } }
> \lyrics { \repeat unfold 20 "a very long bit of lyrics indeed!"1 }
>>> }
> 
> (Incidentally, I have tried to put a line break in the appropriate
> place, using the LSR and the manuals but gotten nowhere. A fix would
> be nice to have.)
> 
Just to chuck another spanner into the mix :-) if anybody tackles this,
the music I use never starts a line with a percent repeat. If there's a
line break, it repeats the bar at the start of the line before
continuing with the repeats.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Two simultaneous mark events

[Wols Lists]

On 19/05/19 02:08, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> Why not just use markup for 'fine'? Position it as you wiil.

Because it doesn't make sense to use markup? It's a lot easier to
position something, if it's attached to its reference object. Otherwise
a minor change to the score will mess things up nicely!

In a different context, I hit this regularly with tempi at rehearsal
marks - because I separate layout from notes and re-use layout across
several parts, it's a nightmare when I have to use markup and attach
things to spacer rests, when I'd much rather attach multiple items to
the bar line.

This usually manifests itself in staircase markups just when I'm
struggling to cram as much music as possible into as small a space as
possible ..

Cheers,
Wol
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 03:15, Gianmaria Lari  > wrote:
> 
> I'm often in this situation:
> 
> \version "2.21.0"
> fine = {
>   \once \override Score.RehearsalMark #'break-visibility =
> #'#(#t #t #f)
>   \once \override Score.RehearsalMark #'self-alignment-X = #RIGHT
>   \mark \markup \italic  "Fine"
> }
> 
> \fixed c' {
> c d e f \bar "|." \fine \break 
> \mark A c c c c
> }
> 
> 
> So, I would like the text "Fine" at the end of the first measure
> (and in this case at the end of the line) and the rehearsal mark "A"
> at the beginning of the next measure (and in this case at the
> beginning of the second line).
> 
> 
> 
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> 


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Re: <>

[Wols Lists]

On 05/01/19 20:40, Aaron Hill wrote:
> But I don't think we ever lost a stand, so I can only imagine the
> conditions you are forced to play in.

Seaside bandstands :-)

Where if the band calls it off they don't get paid. You need to find the
organisers and get them to cancel it, and where do you find them on a
wet and windy British Summer Sunday afternoon?

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: <>

[Wols Lists]

On 05/01/19 20:20, Aaron Hill wrote:
> P.S.  I would like to add that, as a performer who has great disdain for
> annoying page turns, I will join you in the battle for promoting sane
> typesetting.  Slightly squished and/or "creative" notation is far better
> than wrestling with (and wasting) paper.

It's not disdain for page turns, it's for them being bdy impossible!
When we perform, our music is usually stuck to the stands with
everything we can lay our hands on to keep it there - it's not uncommon
for an attempt to turn the page to result in the music disappearing down
the field ... it has been known for the music to disappear down the
field taking the stand with it :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: <>

[Wols Lists]

On 05/01/19 17:34, Aaron Hill wrote:
> On 2019-01-05 2:40 am, Wols Lists wrote:
>> On 04/01/19 18:41, Aaron Hill wrote:
>>>
I *H*A*T*E* about people who proclaim "This is
>> correct".
>>
>> Take my case - which would you choose between "follow the current
>> wisdom" and "music that is readable (and hence playable)". Note that
>> this *IS* an either/or choice! How often have I moaned on this list
>> because I need to over-ride lily's defaults because the result is
>> otherwise pretty much unplayable ...
> 
> I disagree.  The two options are not mutually exclusive--they are one
> and the same.  That is, I see following classical and modern wisdom as
> tools to aid in achieving what will be readable and playable.  But the
> goal is very much the latter, not the former...

They may not be mutually exclusive for you. But as you may remember, I
regularly struggle to eliminate page-breaks, and if that leads to
cramped, hard-to-read music so be it - the alternative is unplayable.
> 

> 
> The problem I have with something like Elements of Style is that the
> work is largely arbitrary yet presented as if it were based in fact. 
> Modern research and analysis of written works through history do not
> agree with Strunck and White's conclusions.  Based on that, one might
> all too quickly throw out the Elements; but putting aside the ego of the
> authors, there is still wisdom in its pages.  It is ultimately born out
> of understanding why and how a rule can be useful in different
> situations.  And to quote a cult classic, "Sometimes you have to know
> when to break the rules."
> 
> In the world of music notation, it would seem that Gould has filled a
> similar role.  I have seen many folks cite their work as the rational
> basis for engraving something a particular way.  It would be my approach
> to take this work not as "you must strictly adhere to these various
> commandments" but rather "while ideal to follow this path as closely as
> reasonable, stray from it should it make things clearer."
> 
> Given that, you should definitely feel free to experiment with notation
> and treat it like an artist who has much freedom with their brush.  If> 
> -- Aaron Hill
> 
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> your music is particularly unusual, perhaps an equally unusual engraving
> is most apropos.  And hopefully LilyPond is and will continue to be
> malleable enough to accommodate the whims of the unusual.

I agree with you, "Elements of Style", "Gould", "The Oxford English
Dictionary" are all necessary to *define* *standards* to make it easy
for us to understand each other :-)
> 
> But for matters of the not-so-unusual, have no disillusion your
> engraving (or writing) will be readily clear if you choose to stray too
> far from the path.
> 
?

But standards are of no use if applying them results in output that is
not "fit for purpose" as English law puts it ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: <>

[Wols Lists]

On 04/01/19 18:41, Aaron Hill wrote:
> 
>> Yeesh, that is terrible.This is why it's important to follow good
>> notation
>> practice: I was so confused by this bad typesetting that I thought the
>> bar
>> was 6/4 time, and now my day is ruined.
> 
> Unless someone is doing academic work where it is critical for the
> typesetting to precisely match that of a reference work, all new
> typesetting ideally should follow the current wisdom of notation.  There
> is little reason to continue to propagate archaic and non-standard
> practices, especially if they are more likely to cause confusion.

This is exactly what I *H*A*T*E* about people who proclaim "This is
correct".

Take my case - which would you choose between "follow the current
wisdom" and "music that is readable (and hence playable)". Note that
this *IS* an either/or choice! How often have I moaned on this list
because I need to over-ride lily's defaults because the result is
otherwise pretty much unplayable ...

I make no comment about the current piece being discussed - it sounds
like it's incomprehensible to orchestral musicians, but why should
everybody be forced to speak "orchestra"? We don't all speak English, or
write in the Latin script!

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: [OT] Variations in ordinals and building floor numbers

[Wols Lists]

On 02/01/19 03:42, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> Never seen '*' in Australia.
> 
Same here in the UK.

QUITE often, the street level is either green, or noticeably raised, or
both, but I've come across several where the street exit is on "1" and
"G" takes you some place else ...

(And given my last job, I've come across several "LB" which stands for
"Loading Bay" :-)

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Flat flared hairpins

[Wols Lists]

On 31/12/18 13:29, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> American floors: 11 12 14 15
> English floors: 11 12 13 14
> 
> I saw this a lot when I worked in new York.

We get this in England too. I'm not aware of a missing 13th floor, but
the house numbers in my street go 9,11,15,17 ...
> 
> Andrew

Cheers,
Wol
> 
> 
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 at 00:07, Wols Lists  <mailto:antli...@youngman.org.uk>> wrote:
> 
> 
> American English floors:  first  second third  fourth
> English floors:   ground first  second third
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Flat flared hairpins

[Wols Lists]

On 31/12/18 12:55, David Kastrup wrote:

> 
> Natural language cardinals: zero   onetwothree
> Natural language ordinals: first  second third
> Scheme cardinals:   0  1  2  3
> Scheme ordinals:   0  1  2

American English floors:  first  second third  fourth
English floors:   ground first  second third
> 
> C is similar.  Any wonder that off-by-one errors are so popular?
> 
:-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: landscape printing and viewing

[Wols Lists]

On 09/09/18 23:55, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> On 09.09.2018 23:13, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Kieren MacMillan  writes:
>>> Hi Martin,
 \paper {
   #(set-paper-size "a4" 'landscape)
 }
>>> If I’m not mistaken, the correct incantation is
>>>
>>> \paper {
>>>   #(set-paper-size "a4landscape")
>>> }
>> That sets_only_  the papersize, not the orientation.  For the screen it
>> might be what you want.  Whether your printer driver is smart enough to
>> figure out what you want is a different question then.
> 
> It has to be, doesn’t it? #(set-paper-size "a4landscape" 'landscape)
> doesn’t help, because then it’s displayed wrong by both evince and
> PyQtPdfViewer (I don’t know its exact name, the one in Frescobaldi…).
> Can’t test printing right now.
> Although: I get furious every time I feed an A4 page into a normal copy
> machine (at my university) the wrong way and the damn thing isn’t able
> to figure it out, but goes exactly with the orthogonal relation and
> creates a cropped print. This is 2018, man… and that’s still happening.
> 
fwiw, I use the

#(set-default-paper-size "a4" 'landscape)

syntax and everything works just fine and normal for me. I use okular as
my pdf viewer. It seems to be a hard thing to get right, however,
because that cropped print you mention, I seem to get quite a lot with
firefox. If the damn web-page won't print properly losing stuff to the
right, I often select landscape, only to discover the paper prints
landscape fine, but the print itself is still cropped to portrait width!!!

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Proprietary Software term

[Wol's lists]

On 19/08/18 08:44, David Kastrup wrote:

Wols Lists  writes:


On 19/08/18 00:34, David Kastrup wrote:

As any theoretical physicist will tell you, anything that involves
actual hardware also is maths.

Are you telling me that maths PREscribes reality?

No.  Reality's math is inseparable from reality.  The Schrödinger
equation models state spaces, not states.


You've just used the word "model". And Schrodinger describes what MAY 
happen. I know it's just words, but what is reality? As far as I'm 
concerned, if it's a model, or a future possibility, it's not "real".



If hardware is maths, then how comes physicists aren't creating the
reality we would like to live in?

Determining the laws of the universe does not give you a handle for
changing them.


The whole point of patents is that they describe what happens in
reality, what we usually do not understand of the maths, or how we tip
the maths to work in our favour.

The math holds regardless of whether you can think of a way to make use
of it.

And patents are meant to cover the *use* we make of that maths.

I like to draw a little distinction between mathematics and science.
A mathematical proof says "this is logically correct". A scientific
proof says "this is not reality".  Theoretical physicists aren't
scientists, they're mathematicians.

I doubt they'll be considering your verdict authoritive.
Well, they're all philosophers, but within the field of philosophy 
there's a lot of argument about where the borders are. Okay, this is my 
view of it, but to my mind there is a clear distinction. Maths is the  
*logical* *modeling* to either explain what is happening, or try to 
predict what will happen. That's why I said theoretical physics are 
mathematicians. The scientists are the guys either getting data for the 
theoreticians to explain, or trying to test their predictions. (The 
reality, of course, is that many people fall into *both* camps.)

Patents are there for technologists, for people who deal with
scientific proofs, not for mathematicians dealing with mathematical
proofs. A patent deals with "this is how we get reality to do what we
want", not with "this is what logic says should happen".

Newton is easy to prove MATHEMATICALLY CORRECT. He is also easy to
prove SCIENTIFICALLY WRONG.

So you say that Special (and General) Relativity should be patentable?

No. Because they're maths. They're models. They're not real. You need to 
separate the DESCRIPTION from the INSTANTIATION. A patent is protected 
by copyright because it is not a thing. It's the thing it describes that 
is protected by patent.


(And from my studies, Relativity can't be patented for other reasons. 
Like Newtonian Mechanics and eg Boyles Law, Special Relativity doesn't 
actually work in reality. It contains a whole bunch of simplifications. 
Likewise, General Relativity is unsolvable even for the simplest cases.)


To my mind, you have to get clear in your mind the distinction between 
the description, and what is described. And there's a lot of people out 
there with a vested interest in muddying the water. (Not helped, as you 
have shown, by the philosophical question "what is reality?" :-) Like 
most things philosophical, there probably is no definitive answer ...


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Proprietary Software term

[Wols Lists]

On 19/08/18 00:34, David Kastrup wrote:
> As any theoretical physicist will tell you, anything that involves
> actual hardware also is maths.

Are you telling me that maths PREscribes reality? Are you telling me
that Newton got it right?

If hardware is maths, then how comes physicists aren't creating the
reality we would like to live in?

Mathematics DEscribes reality. As I understand it, SCOTUS said that
anything that could be done by sweat of the brow, anything that could be
done by someone with pencil and paper and infinite time, is not
patentable. As such, any and all calculations are not patentable. Any
DEscription of reality is not patentable. LOGIC (and that includes
mathematics) is NOT PATENTABLE. (Doesn't prevent patent attorneys
trying, and succeeding :-(

The whole point of patents is that they describe what happens in
reality, what we usually do not understand of the maths, or how we tip
the maths to work in our favour.

I like to draw a little distinction between mathematics and science. A
mathematical proof says "this is logically correct". A scientific proof
says "this is not reality". Theoretical physicists aren't scientists,
they're mathematicians. Patents are there for technologists, for people
who deal with scientific proofs, not for mathematicians dealing with
mathematical proofs. A patent deals with "this is how we get reality to
do what we want", not with "this is what logic says should happen".

Newton is easy to prove MATHEMATICALLY CORRECT. He is also easy to prove
SCIENTIFICALLY WRONG.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Proprietary Software term

[Wols Lists]

On 18/08/18 23:28, David Kastrup wrote:
> zip has been defined using patentable techniques (like
> https://www.google.com/patents/US5051745) but the implementations are
> usually unencumbered.

Just because it has been patented does not mean it is patentable :-(

Of course, the problem is persuading the Patent Offices (who are paid
based on the patents they *issue*) that the patent applications are
actually invalid.

(A file is just a big number, or a collection of numbers. Anything that
does not involve actual hardware is maths. None of that is patentable
under either the American or European legal system. Just wish we could
actually get the lawyers to recognise that :-(

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Proprietary Software term

[Wols Lists]

On 18/08/18 21:18, David Kastrup wrote:
>> "Undocumented proprietary format" doesn't express the intent which
>> > "lock-in" does. As David pointed out, patents can be used to protect
>> > a proprietary format, only I don't think that, for example, the exFAT
>> > filesystem is, in his words, a "strange case".

> A filesystem is not a file format.

What's the difference? As soon as you take the Unix "everything is a
file" approach, your filesystem IS a file format. I run VirtualBox - all
my filesystems really are files. Etc etc. Once you start digging, it's
all a distinction without a difference ...

(take a look at file containers, like zip, vorbis (or is it ogg), mp3
and mp4, etc. What IS the difference between a file and a filesystem?)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Proprietary Software term

[Wols Lists]

On 18/08/18 12:51, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Indeed, that wasn't expressed too well. What I meant is that
>> > CodaMusic's policy to use binary non-released (for some time even
>> > encrypted) file formats strongly discouraged anyone to make a program
>> > use these files.

> That's more than just lock-in.  Don't know a good expression, but that's
> more like locked-away (don't know a good expression for it) since the
> format is designed to keep the user from being able to access his own
> information (and/or that of others).  In my book, that's a no-no since
> it renders archiving worthless.
> 
Undocumented proprietary format.

I compare WordPerfect with Word ... Word's format seems to change with
almost every release, the changes being in many cases apparently to
interfere with compatibility with other programs.

While WordPerfect's format, although proprietary, was well-documented,
with defined extensibility, and a guarantee of compatibility. To the
extent that WordPerfect 6, released in 1994, is to the best of my
knowledge capable of editing and saving - WITHOUT DAMAGING IT - a file
created by the latest version. So any WordPerfect-compatible program
should be able to do the same.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: an "odd" accidental problem...

[Wols Lists]

On 27/07/18 14:10, David Kastrup wrote:
> Torsten Hämmerle  writes:
> 
>> B~M wrote
>>> It appeared in the "Fantasy Etudes for
>>> Viola" written by
>>> Lillian Fuchs who was a significant contributor to Viola in the USA.
>>
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> Thanks for this background information.
>> Lillian Fuchs' expertise is beyond all possible doubt, and I apologize for
>> suspecting ignorance. 
>> Moreover, her 16 Fantasy Etudes have been published by a renowned company,
>> and so this strange orthography may be well-founded.
>> It'd be interesting to learn about her motives, but, unfortunately, she
>> can't answer anymore.
> 
> Enharmonics in violin/viola music can be used for maintaining a
> position-dependent correspondence between fingering and notation in
> preference over scale and notation in the rare situation where those
> differ (usually being able to play/notate a diatonic run aligns those
> two objectives pretty well on those instruments).
> 
> I don't know the music in question, so I cannot vouch for either.  Just
> a suggestion of what might motivate some string composers to choose
> particular notation.
> 
Or does she want the music played in that particular tonic scale ...
bear in mind enharmonic tuning is assumed because that's the way you
have to tune a keyboard, but not all instruments are (or can play)
enharmonic. And in those cases F-flat is very definitely not E. Hint -
if any notes are written as resting your finger on the string but not
pushing the string against the neck ... a not uncommon technique in
guitar playing.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: an "odd" accidental problem...

[Wols Lists]

On 27/07/18 15:30, Torsten Hämmerle wrote:
> Anthony Youngman-2 wrote
>> Well, lilypond is about the only place I ever normally see it! :-) YMMV
>> :-)
> 
> Here's a non-LilyPond excerpt of Tchaikovsky's Nocturne op. 19 no. 4:
>  
> After the cadenza, the key signature changes and the E-flat is being
> cancelled.
> This is the "old Russian standard" where the cancellation signs go before
> the barline.
> 
> LilyPond's default corresponds with the traditional practice (see Gould),
> the contemporary practice will do without cancelling signs, you normally
> won't see them in modern editions.
> 
Which is exactly my point about "step outside your normal music and
you'll see a completely different setup".

My "normal" is the key signature when the key changes. THAT'S IT. So I
have to make sure I know what the key is - the lack of a key signature
at the start of the line does not mean C major ... :-)

(My normal is that space is at a premium - if you can get more notes in
by leaving the key signature out, you do!)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: an "odd" accidental problem...

[Wol's lists]

On 27/07/18 11:49, B~M wrote:

Is there please a way to typeset this in Lilypond ?
This is the only time I've seen such notation, so Im guessing its rare ?


Rare for who? Too many people think "I never see it in music I'm 
familiar with, so surely nobody uses it ...". I've had this contre-temps 
on the list on several occasions - orchestral guys say "I've never seen 
this" and I reply "it's standard in ALL the music (brass/concert band) I 
typically see".


I'm more used to seeing what you describe in key signatures, but all 
these things are *tradition*, and you'll see it a lot if you look 
outside your normal repertoire.


Cheers,
Wol
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Staff-brace-like horizontal spanner

[lists]

Hi all,

I'm looking for a way to create a horizontal spanner that looks like a 
PianoStaff brace, which automatically grows horizontally without scaling the 
whole shape. The model can be seen on this page: 
http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10527451_00050.html
Of course this is realized thorugh type printing, with one type for the center 
"buckle".
I would be allowed to simply use slurs but I would really like to see if 
there's a better solution with acceptable effort.

Is there a way (or an existing solution) to achieve something like this without 
"manually" drawing a path? I'm reluctant to go for the self-drawing because I'm 
not sure how to make it to really look convincing (it feels like a 
type-designer's task).

Apart from the shape design itself I would need this in two variants: spanning 
between two notes and spanning whole measures (as seen on the sample page). I 
think for the first one one could conveniently build on the phrasing slur 
foundation (and probably even hijack that by overriding the stencil). For the 
second one: is it the right approach to parse the current system's content for 
barlines?
(BTW: I'm not interested in supporting multiline instances).

Any thoughts?
Thanks
Urs
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Different types of music expressions

[lists]

Hi,

I have a music-function that has to behave differently depending on the "type" 
of music it gets as an argument.
Interpreting the music properties 'types and 'elements I was so far able to 
successfully discern

* sequential music
* single chords
* single rhythmic events (but not if they're standalone or within a chord)
* post-events
* non-rhythmic events (e.g. clefs or key signatures)

Only today I realized that single note-events and single chords behave very 
differently and have to be treated differently within my music function.

This made me think that there might be even more types of music expressions 
that I haven't thought of yet. And while I don't look forward to more work I 
think it would be good to deal with the matter *now*, while I'm still familiar 
with the topic.

So the question is: can you think of other "types" of music expressions that 
might behave differently with regard to

* attaching music properties to the expression or sub-expressions
* being tweaked with tweak, once override or override - music - revert

?

Thanks
Urs
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Re: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 186, Issue 108

[Wols Lists]

On 22/05/18 21:11, Arle Lommel wrote:
lmost right, but doesn’t function quite as Hindemith’s
> notation does:
> 
>   * The Hindemith editions use time signatures /both/ above and in line,
> but never at the same time. They serve different purposes. The
> snipped removes the ability to do the in-line time signatures
> because the time signature engraver is removed from the main staffs.
> Easy enough to put in, but then I need to brush up enough to
> selectively control where a time signature appears
>   * Hindemith also limits the effect of a superior time signature to a
> single measure. The following measure reverts (with nothing
> displayed) to the original meter. So replicating the Schott practice
> would mean also hiding the time signature following such a measure.
> 
> 
> But this is very useful as a suggestion of an approach. Maybe I can find
> a way to selectively hide/show time signature changes in each context to
> get what I want.
> 
Another possible approach, for the temporary time changes, is can you
display the new time signature without actually setting it? (Ie if the
piece is in 2/4, you display 3/4 but lilypond still thinks its a 2/4 bar
as before with no change.

Then just use \times 2/3 {} for that bar so the notation displays correctly.

Okay, that won't work for midi, but for scores it might be a good solution.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Several questions concerning scheme-music-function

[Wols Lists]

On 27/05/18 11:50, Robert Schmaus wrote:
> The analogy is probably not perfect because investing time in Scheme
> would benefit my overall Lilypond abilities, I guess.

Learning different ways to think is ALWAYS valuable. Scheme requires a
different mindset from most languages, so learning it WILL be valuable.

(Says he who also can't get to grips with it :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Several questions concerning scheme-music-function

[Wols Lists]

On 27/05/18 10:49, Robert Schmaus wrote:
> From that thread, I take away the comfort that I'm not the only one with
> Scheme-problems.
> Now, I can live with that - most of the times I don't have to customise
> anything anyway. It's just, that with Scheme, I know, I'll never get
> into it, too.
> 
> 
> Ok, thanks again for the references. I think for now, I simply stay
> within the "out of the box" Lilypond limits. I'd have to invest hours of
> learning Scheme - that's not an option for the near future, I'm afraid.

My brother used to hate emacs when he started CompSci - he thought it
was horrendous. Then he got used to it - and realised why it's so good.

And Emacs is written (and programmed) in Lisp.

I bang on about Word and WordPerfect in the same vein. Word was dumbed
down to appeal to the "man in the street" who couldn't type. I *hate* it
- it's a mess. WordPerfect was written for the man who knew how to type
- it's intuitive, it's simple, it works like a dream. But give it to the
boss, rather than the secretary, and they just can't get it to work.
Lisp/scheme/Emacs are the same - they're wonderful tools in the hands of
the PROFESSIONAL that knows how to use them.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Need someone testing XML file in Finale and Sibelius (and Dorico)

[lists]

7. Mai 2018 18:51, "Jacques Menu Muzhic"  schrieb:

> Would it be a reasonable approach to have LilyPond first produce data in 
> memory, i.e. Scheme data
> representing the whole score, and then either to produce the score or a MIDI 
> file or supply this
> data to other applications, such as a MusicXML exporter?

Yes, that's the idea.
We had talked about the idea of providing something like an API where 
"consumers" could take that data either from some serialization on disk or 
(better) from some memory representation. Ideally such a converter should be 
writable in different languages.

> 
> Of course this would mean a lot of work.

Oh well, yes. That's why this doesn't exist yet ;-)

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Re: Need someone testing XML file in Finale and Sibelius (and Dorico)

[lists]

Hi Torsten,

5. Mai 2018 11:44, "Torsten Hämmerle"  schrieb:

> Hi Urs,
> 
> Sibelius works fine:
> 
>  
> 

Thanks.

>
> As my Dorico evaluation period has expired, I can't even start it.
> All the others allow testing w/o save/export functionality, but Steinberg is
> much more restrictive in that respect.
> 

On the Facebook group I got a screenshot of Dorico, so (not unexpectedly) this 
works too.

So my conclusion is: we can export faulty XML, and Finale, Sibelius, Dorico, 
MuseScore and Verovio will still properly handle it.
I find that somewhat embarrassing, but I think it's much better than nothing (I 
was pretty surprised to see that MusesScore didn't show *any* beams after 
exporting a small example from LilyPond ...)

Thanks to all who responded.
Urs

> All the best,
> Torsten
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html
> 
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 04/05/18 17:14, Paul Scott wrote:
> On Fri, May 04, 2018 at 11:00:59AM +0100, Wols Lists wrote:
>> On 30/04/18 22:46, Torsten Hämmerle wrote:
>>> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>>>> I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
>>>> typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.
>>>
>>> Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
>>> digital tuning device. ;D
>>>
>> Until you get the player (or novice conductor!) who tries to tune the
>> brass section to an A !!!
>>
>> I've had it happen - someone who insisted I tune my trombone to an A ...
> 
> Nevertheless any orchestra I've heard or played in in the US tunes to an A.
> 
> Bands tune to Bb and sometimes also to A.
> 
So if their A is out of tune, which tuning slide do they adjust? Hint -
there are TWO slides involved in an A ...

Likewise, on the 'bone, I can't tell you where I place the slide for an
A, I just "know", and a lot of that is probably micro-feedback - I hear
the note and my hand/arm just move slightly to get it in tune - tuning
to an A means I'll never adjust my tuning slide because it's actually
quite hard to play out-of-tune.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Tempo & Markup

[Wols Lists]

On 04/05/18 12:34, foxfanfare wrote:
> But I was wondering if I could be able to write a small function for it.
> Is it possible to change the default command "2 = 76-84" so it will take
> my own markup preferences?

Almost certainly ...

I do the same thing with the header block on my music. Brass band music
always puts the instrument on the left, orchestras (and lilypond) put it
in the centre under the title.

Find the standard code in lilypond. Take a copy of the relevant
function, and modify it to suit you. Then #include your version in the
relevant part of your music. For example, my function that I've modified
belongs in the paper block, so I include my modified version in every
paper block. Yours probably belongs in the Score block, so include it in
every score block.

Or you could replace the standard version, but that will cause problems
with upgrades ...

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 04/05/18 11:34, Aaron Hill wrote:
> As a piano/keyboards/bass/guitar player here who has only played with an
> "orchestra" for high school musicals many moons ago, you have me
> wondering now:
> 
> From what I thought happened, the oboist tunes to the piano if one is
> used or to a tuner otherwise.  From that point, I assume all the
> woodwinds can match the A and tune themselves.  Strings usually have an
> open A, and then they can tune the rest by fourths/fifths.  When and how
> do the brass typically get their reference pitch?

The majority of brass instruments are Bb instruments, so obviously,
that's the main reference pitch. In my concert band, we tune to the
oboe's Bb, or Eb and F for the Eb and F instruments.

In a brass band we just tune to the principal cornet. Quite what we do
with the Eb instruments, I'm not sure, since I've never played one and
it's never crossed my mind to notice ... :-)

(Oh - and something to watch for with *OLD* brass instruments, if they
were band instruments they are typically tuned to something
approximating Vienna pitch - they are noticeably sharp, something like
A=460. Causes fun when you mix old and new instruments ...)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 30/04/18 22:46, Torsten Hämmerle wrote:
> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
>> I suspect the least pitch-flexible instrument is the oboe, as one
>> typically uses that for a tuning reference pitch.
> 
> Yep, and just to keep up tradition, it's the oboe player who operates the
> digital tuning device. ;D
> 
Until you get the player (or novice conductor!) who tries to tune the
brass section to an A !!!

I've had it happen - someone who insisted I tune my trombone to an A ...

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 04/05/18 00:48, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> I didn’t get that far into trumpet playing — I switched to trombone as soon 
> as I could, because it better suited my embouchure — but I got far enough to 
> realize that I could do a *lot* of "tuning" with those limited valves and 
> slides. Based on that experience, I feel sure that if I got [a lot?] better, 
> I would be able to play in equal or just temperament, as desired.

You sound like me :-) I started on the cornet and switched to trombone. ...

But I'm looking at it as a physicist. HOW do you tune all those notes to
equal temperament on an instrument that does not have sufficient
adjustable nobs to do so? It can't be done.

What you CAN do, what I'm sure you've done, and what I see happen all
the time in my band, is that players can adjust - "bend" - the tone with
their embouchure. And that bending can be massive - I've heard of a
trombone teacher who suddenly realised the boy he was teaching could
only reach fourth position, but was successfully playing a bottom B
natural! (4th position is a D for non-trombonists.) The lad was bending
the note three semitones!

So I'm not saying you can't play equal temperament, or whatever you
want. I'm just saying that you can't tune the instrument to it, you just
have to "play it by ear" and "bend" the note.

Which is why my comment/question basically boils down to "what
*practical* difference does it make?". And the answer seems to be "None,
in *most* cases". Which is why I'm getting a little het up because so
many people seem to be coming across as "everyone should do it because
it matters for my corner case".

Sorry if that upsets people, but if a question is about a monotonic
instrument, don't drag your chord-playing corner case into the
discussion. (I was left with the strong feeling that this is exactly
what happened with my post - everybody discussed their corner case and
nobody actually bothered to read my question. And if I do that to other
people, feel free to call me on it ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 30/04/18 20:54, Malte Meyn wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 30.04.2018 um 15:50 schrieb Hans Åberg:
>> But orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so
>> they are not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
> 
> Which orchestral instruments do you refer to? All instruments that I
> know good enough use equal temperament or a good approximation. I don’t
> know an orchestral instrument that has different ways to play E♭ and D♯ …
> 
You're confusing equal temperament with monotonic.

Just because an instrument uses the same fingering for Eb and D# (on a
trumpet that would be first valve, I believe), doesn't mean that the
note is equal temperament, or an accurate Eb or D#. And it's a pretty
safe bet that if the player plays the two notes an octave apart they
almost certainly aren't an accurate octave ... an Eb, a D#, and the
equal temperament fudge are three distinct notes, and your trumpet is
probably playing a fourth. True, they're all ALMOST the same ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 30/04/18 20:32, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:11, Wols Lists <antli...@youngman.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> On 30/04/18 14:50, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic <imj-muz...@bluewin.ch> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.
>>>
>>> FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying enharmonic 
>>> equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation suggests applying 
>>> them to simplify for harpists, which will save time and money. But 
>>> orchestral instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are 
>>> not equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
>>>
>> Which actually matters how?
>>
>> Apart from the violins and the trombone, most instruments just play the
>> pitch to which they are tuned, so Bbb and A are the same fingering, and
>> the same note.
>>
>> Yes I know most decent wind musicians can "bend" the tuning, but surely
>> they'll bend it by ear into tune, not to some arbitrary note name.
> 
> One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is 
> typically the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean, but can 
> adapt into 5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the 
> Traditional Harmony rules. That becomes more difficult in distant keys.
> 
> 
WHAT STRING SECTION!?!?!?

Yes, I happened to mention violins as instruments which can tune a note
"on the fly", as can my instrument the trombone, but the majority of
instruments can NOT.

Plus, I'm unaware of Jazz ensembles having a string section - they might
have a double bass though, and the ensembles I play with (concert or
brass bands, I used to play in a big band) never include strings.

So, the question remains. Why - FOR THE MAJORITY OF INSTRUMENTS WHICH
ARE MONOTONIC AND DO NOT "TUNE ON THE FLY" - does it matter whether a
note is an A or a Bbb? There's sweet fa the player can do about it, anyway.

I remember having a similar "heated argument" with a guy on another
mailing list who insisted that instruments - let's say a trumpet -
should be tuned to equal temperament and any player who couldn't do it
should be sacked. It's not *possible* to tune a brass instrument to
equal temperament - it has at max 5 tuning slides to tune 12 pitches and
typically about 40 notes!

I take the point of various people that, for SOME instruments, you
really do want an obvious chord structure, but for most instruments,
especially those that cannot play chords, do the players really give a
monkeys? They just pitch-bend the tune to their neighbours.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Wols Lists]

On 30/04/18 14:50, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Jacques Menu Muzhic  wrote:
>>
>> OK, now everything is clear, it’s precisely on jazz chords I’m working.
> 
> FYI, I recall the Mehegan books on jazz improvisation applying enharmonic 
> equivalents freely. The Blatter books on instrumentation suggests applying 
> them to simplify for harpists, which will save time and money. But orchestral 
> instruments depart from Pythagorean tuning, not E12, so they are not 
> equivalent, differing by a comma of about 20 cents.
> 
Which actually matters how?

Apart from the violins and the trombone, most instruments just play the
pitch to which they are tuned, so Bbb and A are the same fingering, and
the same note.

Yes I know most decent wind musicians can "bend" the tuning, but surely
they'll bend it by ear into tune, not to some arbitrary note name.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Large set of parts

[Wol's lists]

On 29/04/18 00:00, J Martin Rushton wrote:

On 28/04/18 04:46, Karlin High wrote:

On 4/27/2018 8:28 PM, Andrew Bernard wrote:

It falls into the category of alliteration, which abounds in English


As a poetry form, too - "Beowulf" and J. R. R. Tolkien's unfinished work
"The Fall of Arthur" come to mind. Sort of like "rhyming" the beginnings
of the words instead of the endings.


Most poetry until Chaucer foisted the French custom of end-rhymes on us.
  See for example "Sir Gawaine and the Greene Knight" or "The vision of
Piers the Ploughman".

Shakespeare is almost all poetry, not prose. And it rarely rhymes. I 
can't remember the correct term, but poetry is defined by repeating 
rhythms, not by rhyming. Much like music, actually ... :-)


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Temporarily split lyrics

[lists]

2. April 2018 15:01, "Malte Meyn"  schrieb:

> Am 02.04.2018 um 14:55 schrieb li...@openlilylib.org:
> 
>> Hm, thanks for the idea, but the problem is that this would require the 
>> "empty" lyrics to actually
>> start at the beginning of the piece.
> 
> You could try something like (pseudo-code):

I'll see how I can proceed. The issue is that I also have to integrate it in an 
existing infastructure, so I'm not completely free how to set up contexts and 
variables. 
(https://git.openlilylib.org/bfsc/kayser/blob/techdoc/includes/lib/make-staff.ily
 but that's incomplete, just for getting an idea).

Urs

> 
> %
> \new Voice = "alto" \relative {
> [music before the lyrics split]
> <<
> [music during the split lyrics]
> \new Lyrics = "split" \lyricmode {
> [verse 2, lower part]
> }
>>> 
> [music after the lyrics split]
> }
> \addlyrics {
> [verse 1]
> }
> \new Lyrics \lyricsto "alto" {
> [verse 2, upper part]
> }
> %
> 
> I don’t know whether \addlyrics or \lyricsto "split" would work here but
> if you have only a short split section you can do the durations by hand.
> 
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Re: Temporarily split lyrics

[lists]

2. April 2018 14:59, "Phil Holmes"  schrieb:

> Is http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=265 any use?

Partially, thank you.

I've realized (on lilybin) that I can start a new Lyrics context within the 
lyrics definition. Probably It'll work when I use named contexts to align to. 
Then I should benefit from parts of the snippet code.

Thanks for the pointer
Urs

> 
> --
> Phil Holmes
> 
>> - Original Message -
>> 
>> From: u...@openlilylib.org
>> To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
>> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2018 1:32 PM
>> Subject: Temporarily split lyrics
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> what would be the most efficient way of typesetting lyrics that are split 
>> for a few words, ideally
>> together with some sort of brackets similar to what can be seen in
>> https://git.openlilylib.org/bfsc/kayser/issues/58
>> ?
>> 
>> Any suggestions appreciated.
>> Urs
>> 
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Re: Temporarily split lyrics

[lists]

2. April 2018 14:49, "Malte Meyn"  schrieb:

> Am 02.04.2018 um 14:32 schrieb u...@openlilylib.org:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> what would be the most efficient way of typesetting lyrics that are
>> split for a few words, ideally together with some sort of brackets
>> similar to what can be seen in
>> https://git.openlilylib.org/bfsc/kayser/issues/58
>> ?
> 
> Might not be the most efficient way, but how about this?

Hm, thanks for the idea, but the problem is that this would require the "empty" 
lyrics to actually start at the beginning of the piece.
But I admit this gives me an idea (which I should have had before ...).
I'll give it a try on lilybin.com or later when I'm home again and post an 
update.

Urs

> 
> \version "2.19.81"
> \language "deutsch"
> 
> \relative {
> \clef alto
> \key es \major
> \time 2/4
> d'8. d16 es8 f
> g f16( es)b'8 c16( as)
> f4 r
> }
> \addlyrics {
> op -- ti -- me! in -- dul -- ge gra -- ti -- am,
> }
> \addlyrics {
> ge -- ne -- ris
> \override LyricText.Y-offset = 1
> \markup { \raise #-0.5 \left-brace #25 hanc }
> Spon -- \markup { ſam \raise #-0.5 \right-brace #25 }
> \revert LyricText.Y-offset
> re -- cre -- a,
> }
> \addlyrics {
> _ _ _
> \override LyricText.Y-offset = 1
> has
> Spon -- ſas
> \revert LyricText.Y-offset
> }
> 
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Re: please direct to manual; different time signatures for different instruments

[Wols Lists]

On 25/03/18 23:39, Ben wrote:
> On 3/25/2018 6:24 PM, Colin Campbell wrote:
>> On 2018-03-25 12:19 PM, Sam Frybyte wrote:
>>> I don't even know what this is called so finding it in the manual has
>>> me stymied.
>>> I am using version 2.18.2
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>> I believe someone has already directed you to polymetric notation, but
>> here is a *very* rough piece using scaled durations, more whimsical
>> that skilled, I'm afraid, but it might suggest something.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Colin
> 
> Thanks for sharing this file with us! It's interesting to look at how
> you approach polymetric projects...
> 
> PS. I think you have a small typo in your paper block, I got an error
> with it here :)
> 
> system-system-spacing.basic-distance = #18
> 
> instead of
> system-system-spacing  #'basic-distance = #18
> 
Just guessing, but ...

I hit a problem like that. Check the version that it was written for,
compared with the version you're using. I think you'll find the syntax
has changed.

"man convert-ly" :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Variables and Repetition

[Wols Lists]

On 25/03/18 04:13, John A wrote:
> I am entering the notes in relative mode, and when I engrave the score,
> if the ending notes of the figure are too high or low, on the second
> repetition the whole figure will be an octave too high or too low. On
> the next repetition, it goes an octave higher or lower. If I put in a '
> or , to try to bring it back into place, it throws of the initial
> instance of the figure.

This is exactly what I've done. Other people don't recommend doing that
,.. enter the notes in absolute pitch.

Or do what Han Wen did for me, and look at \resetOctave (or is it
\resetRelativeOctave - can't remember). Either way, there is a command
to reset the pitch back to a specific octave.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: get current bar number

[Wols Lists]

On 23/03/18 06:21, Jan-Peter Voigt wrote:
> If you are going to write an engraver you can find some informations in
> the archive.

Also look at the rehearsal mark engraver. One of the options is to use
the bar number as the rehearsal mark, so that might give you some ideas.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Transposing Keyless Brass Parts

[Wols Lists]

On 17/03/18 23:54, Glassmenagerie wrote:
> By accident I came across another possible solution.
> 
> \score { 
> 
> 
>   \transpose c g { 
>   \relative g' { 
>   \time 2/4 
>   
>   g8[-.\p g ( aes ) aes] ( 
>   g g4 ) g8 ( 
>   f ) f4 f8 ( 
>   g\<[ ) g ( f\> ees]\! ) 
>   d4 ( c 
>   bes2 ) 
>   
>   \bar "|." 
>   
>   } 
>   } 
> }
> 
> This seems to work for the notes.  Any reason not to do this ?  Also there's
> no key signature.  The effect is to transpose up 7 intervals.

This is close to what I do, and I have to regularly transpose parts
between Bb-treble and concert-bass.

Bear in mind that lily does not assume western tonal music, so when you
say "transpose" it doesn't take scales into account - it just shifts
everything by that interval.

If you need to print stuff out in multiple pitches (like I do with my Bb
and concert parts), it's easy to put the notes in a variable wrapped in
a transpose, and then print it out wrapping the variable in a different
transpose. Just have some scheme for a consistent "scale" in your
variable - I make sure all my variables are internally in concert pitch.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: bookparts

[Wols Lists]

On 05/03/18 17:55, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> Hi Knut,
> 
>> Because the definition of testing is invalid at that point of the main
>> source file. If tempTest.ly would contain e.g. a score or a \paper block
>> no error would occur.
> 
> No, it still throws an error because you can't define a variable inside a 
> \bookpart (which is what \include-ing it at that point does).
> 
And as a programmer, I think "scope". You are defining the variable
where you want to use it. It's widely accepted that that is good
practice, global variables lead to errors, mistakes and confusion. But
here you are forced to declare your variables at the global level :-(

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: bookparts

[Wols Lists]

On 04/03/18 19:11, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
>>> book = file
>>> bookpart = portion of file with forced page break
>>>
>>> No?
>>
>> No.  One input file can have several books (and there is one implicit
>> book where scores and bookparts outside of books end up).
>>
> 
>> There might be more of a connection with output files
> 
> 
> Yes, sorry… I meant
> 
>book = output file
>bookpart = portion of output file with forced page break.
> 
Or even forced file break?

Istr some option that creates a new file for each bookpart with a suffix
on the output file name.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: A couple of questions about Edition Engraver

[lists]

Hi David,

19. Februar 2018 12:00, "David Sumbler"  schrieb:

> As a newcomer to using Edition Engraver, and looking at the example
> files etc., I wondered why they were written with so much repetition.
> "Perhaps it is just to keep things easy for newcomers like me to
> understand," I thought.
> 
> So I experimented with reformatting using braces as Lilypond does,
> which seemed the method most likely method.  For instance,
> 
> \editionMod test 1 0/4 Voice \(
> \editionMod test 1 1/4 Lyrics #(make-music 'ExtenderEvent)
> \editionMod test 1 2/8 Voice [
> \editionMod test 2 0/4 Score \time 3/4
> \editionMod test 2 0/4 Score \tempo "Allegro" 4=135
> \editionMod test 2 0/4 Voice \p
> \editionMod test 2 0/4 Voice \<
> \editionMod test 2 1/4 Lyrics #(make-music 'HyphenEvent)
> 
> might become
> 
> \editionMod test {
> 1 {
> 0/4 Voice \(
> 1/4 Lyrics #(make-music 'ExtenderEvent)
> 2/8 Voice [
> }
> 2 {
> 0/4 {
> Score {
> \time 3/4
> \tempo "Allegro" 4=135
> } 
> Voice {
> \p
> \<
> }
> }
> 1/4 Lyrics #(make-music 'HyphenEvent)
> } 
> }
> 
> This is much clearer to me, and it would potentially be much easier to
> find one's way around the file for maintenance and the addition of new
> items.  I appreciate that one might not necessarily want all entries in
> the order they appear in the score.
> 
> Unfortunately, what I wrote doesn't work.

No, and I think it can't be made to work since it's quite un-LilyPond-y.

What about something like (just a shot in the dark)

\edMods test \with {
  a = \with {
m = 1
mods = {
  \eMod 1/4 Lyrics #(make-music 'ExtenderEvent)
  \eMod 0/4 Voice \(
}
  }
  b = \with {
m = 2
mods = {
  \eMod Score \tempo "Allegro" 4=135
  
...

?
  
  

> 
> Is there any likelihood that something similar to what I have suggested
> might be added to Edition Engraver in the forseeable future?

I think interface improvements to the edition-engraver can always we considered.
But we would have to have a thorough discussion in order to be sure they are 
really an improvement. I mean a construct as I wrote above can easily become 
unwieldy and confusing too. I think there's always a tradeoff between clarity 
of structure, number of keystrokes etc. Such a nested structure tends to be 
more prone to problems through nesting brackets ...

> 
> And how near are we to seeing Edition Engraver included in Lilypond
> itself?

No idea about that, but I think it's quite a way to go until we can consider 
this.
Urs

> 
> David
> 
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Re: Interesting glitch when using tags ...

[Wols Lists]

On 04/02/18 19:20, David Kastrup wrote:
> Wol's lists <antli...@youngman.org.uk> writes:
> 
>> Okay. You wanted a minimal example ...
>>
>> But surely, "f4. ~ f4" is clearly something wrong if it's complaining
>> about an unterminated tie? Yes you might need a bit more information
>> to debug it, but on the face of it it's a blatant bug ...
> 
> And when looking closer at an actual example, it isn't.
> 
> \version "2.18.2"
> 
> \include "english.ly"
> 
> 
> \score {
> \new Staff {
> \time 6/8
> \key bf \major
> \clef "treble_8"
> << 
> {
> \repeat percent 4 { bf8[ r bf] bf[ r bf] } | c4( d8 c4) r8 | 
> c8-> r4 c8-> r4 | c2. | c2. ~ 
> }
> {
> \repeat percent 4 { f8[ r f] f[ r f] } | f4. ~ f4 r8 | a8-> 
> r4 a8-> r4 | a2. | bf2.
> }
> >>
> }
> }
> 
> The problem here is that your two melody passages are all in the same
> voice, and that means that f4 is _not_ the next note after f4. ~ but
> rather the d8 in the previous line of entry is.

Oh ... so lily is being its usual rather non-intuitive self :-) (Of
course, being a command line tool, with power comes responsibility :-)
> 
> LilyPond cannot deal sensibly with overlapping notes in the same voice.
> You need two separate voices.  Indeed, putting \\ between the two { }
> groups in the parallel music stops the problem.  Of course, with awful
> voice crossing. 

I'll see what doing that does. Bear in mind, in the full example they
are tagged ...

 Putting \voices 2,1 before the << ... >> looks better
> (but I have no idea whether the voice crossing then in the first half is
> intentional, or even whether you wanted the original in which case you'd
> like be better off with two staves).

The original is a part with two instruments, so no, two staves is very
definitely not what is wanted - and the tags are so that I can print it
out for my own purposes as two separate parts, but print it combined for
checking purposes. Can be painful :-(

Maybe I should have done it as two separate parts, and used partcombine
for checking purposes. Would probably have been easier ...
> 
> So can we agree that diagnosing this required an actual complete example
> showing the context in which this problem occured?
> 
(Which, while it wasn't a compilable example, was why I included the
context in my first post :-)

Anyways, thanks. Now I know why it's happening, I can either choose to
ignore it, or I can fix it. And next time it happens, I'll know what's
going on.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Interesting glitch when using tags ...

[Wol's lists]

Whoops - I've just spotted a genuine unterminated tie at the end of the 
first line of notes - but removing it does not get rid of the warning...


So this minimal example demonstrates both a genuine unterminated tie 
that doesn't warn, and a terminated tie that warns when it shouldn't...


Cheers,
Wol

On 04/02/18 18:49, Wol's lists wrote:

Okay. You wanted a minimal example ...

But surely, "f4. ~ f4" is clearly something wrong if it's complaining 
about an unterminated tie? Yes you might need a bit more information to 
debug it, but on the face of it it's a blatant bug ...


Cheers,
Wol

On 04/02/18 00:59, David Kastrup wrote:

Wols Lists <antli...@youngman.org.uk> writes:


On 04/02/18 00:33, David Kastrup wrote:

Wol's lists <antli...@youngman.org.uk> writes:


I suspect the cause is that I'm mixing slurs and ties, but I'm getting
the following error ...

voiceTrombone.ily:30:59: warning: unterminated tie
 \repeat percent 4 { f,8[ r f] f[ r f] } | f4.
   ~ f4 r8 | a8-> r4
a8-> r4 | a2. | bf2.(





<http://lilypond.org/tiny-examples.html>


Yes I know. But looking at the error message, I am quite clearly tying
an f to an f. So why is it complaining "unterminated tie"?


This very likely depends on details you don't quote.


I can try and make a minimal example if you like - I'm just puzzled why
what is - as far as I can see - perfectly correct syntax is generating
an error message.

NB - the lilypond version is SUSE's latest ...


And of course everybody uses SUSE and knows which is their "latest",
regardless whether we are talking about final releases or test releases
or whatever else.  And naturally there is only a single architecture
they support.

Sigh.  If you are interested in getting help, try investing a minimum of
work to actually make that possible.  If not, why bother?




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Re: Interesting glitch when using tags ...

[Wol's lists]

Okay. You wanted a minimal example ...

But surely, "f4. ~ f4" is clearly something wrong if it's complaining 
about an unterminated tie? Yes you might need a bit more information to 
debug it, but on the face of it it's a blatant bug ...


Cheers,
Wol

On 04/02/18 00:59, David Kastrup wrote:

Wols Lists <antli...@youngman.org.uk> writes:


On 04/02/18 00:33, David Kastrup wrote:

Wol's lists <antli...@youngman.org.uk> writes:


I suspect the cause is that I'm mixing slurs and ties, but I'm getting
the following error ...

voiceTrombone.ily:30:59: warning: unterminated tie
 \repeat percent 4 { f,8[ r f] f[ r f] } | f4.
   ~ f4 r8 | a8-> r4
a8-> r4 | a2. | bf2.(





<http://lilypond.org/tiny-examples.html>


Yes I know. But looking at the error message, I am quite clearly tying
an f to an f. So why is it complaining "unterminated tie"?


This very likely depends on details you don't quote.


I can try and make a minimal example if you like - I'm just puzzled why
what is - as far as I can see - perfectly correct syntax is generating
an error message.

NB - the lilypond version is SUSE's latest ...


And of course everybody uses SUSE and knows which is their "latest",
regardless whether we are talking about final releases or test releases
or whatever else.  And naturally there is only a single architecture
they support.

Sigh.  If you are interested in getting help, try investing a minimum of
work to actually make that possible.  If not, why bother?

\version "2.18.2"

\include "english.ly"


\score {
\new Staff {
\time 6/8
\key bf \major
\clef "treble_8"
<< 
{
\repeat percent 4 { bf8[ r bf] bf[ r bf] } | c4( d8 c4) r8 | c8-> r4 c8-> r4 | c2. | c2. ~ 
}
{
\repeat percent 4 { f8[ r f] f[ r f] } | f4. ~ f4 r8 | a8-> r4 a8-> r4 | a2. | bf2.
}
>>
}
}


test.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: Interesting glitch when using tags ...

[Wols Lists]

On 04/02/18 00:33, David Kastrup wrote:
> Wol's lists <antli...@youngman.org.uk> writes:
> 
>> I suspect the cause is that I'm mixing slurs and ties, but I'm getting
>> the following error ...
>>
>> voiceTrombone.ily:30:59: warning: unterminated tie
>> \repeat percent 4 { f,8[ r f] f[ r f] } | f4.
>>   ~ f4 r8 | a8-> r4
>> a8-> r4 | a2. | bf2.(
>>

> 
> <http://lilypond.org/tiny-examples.html>
> 
Yes I know. But looking at the error message, I am quite clearly tying
an f to an f. So why is it complaining "unterminated tie"?

I can try and make a minimal example if you like - I'm just puzzled why
what is - as far as I can see - perfectly correct syntax is generating
an error message.

NB - the lilypond version is SUSE's latest ...

Cheers,
Wol

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Interesting glitch when using tags ...

[Wol's lists]

I suspect the cause is that I'm mixing slurs and ties, but I'm getting 
the following error ...


voiceTrombone.ily:30:59: warning: unterminated tie
\repeat percent 4 { f,8[ r f] f[ r f] } | f4.
  ~ f4 r8 | a8-> r4 
a8-> r4 | a2. | bf2.(


but as you can see, I'm tying two f's together ... the crucial point is 
it does print correctly (well, it should be an inverted tie, but at 
least it prints a tie).


The context is:

<<
\tag #'TromI {
\repeat percent 4 { bf8[ r bf] bf[ r bf] } | c4( d8 c4) r8 
| c8-> r4 c8-> r4 | c2. | c2. ~

}
\tag #'TromII {
\repeat percent 4 { f,8[ r f] f[ r f] } | f4. ~ f4 r8 | 
a8-> r4 a8-> r4 | a2. | bf2.(

}
>>

you'll see that TromII has the tie, and TromI has a slur. BUT. If I 
change the tie to a slur, the error message disappears, but so does the 
slur joining the f's if I'm printing both parts ...


Interestingly, the eagle-eyed will notice that the last note of each 
part also ends with a tie in one part and a slur in the other, but this 
prints fine and doesn't generate an error ... odd ...


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Weirdo code?

[Wols Lists]

On 28/01/18 20:09, David Kastrup wrote:
> Wol's lists <antli...@youngman.org.uk> writes:
> 
>> I've just tried to do a cut-n-paste into a piece of music, from
>> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/bars
>>
>> At the very bottom you'll find
>>
>> \relative c' {
>>   c1 \mark \markup { \musicglyph "scripts.segno" }
>>   c1 \mark \markup { \musicglyph "scripts.coda" }
>>   c1 \mark \markup { \musicglyph "scripts.ufermata" }
>>   c1
>> }
>>
>> Okay, I was only copying the markup bit - I wanted it as markup in the
>> middle of the bar - but I had to add a # as follows:
>>
>> \markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.coda" }
>>
>> Looking at the code behind the web page, it looks like that is
>> correct, so this is really just a curious enquiry - why is the #
>> required if I want a markup, but it's not required if it's a markup
>> within a mark ???
> 
> Different versions.  It's just recently that you could write strings
> within a markup without # before them.  The Documentation is likely
> newer than your version of LilyPond.
> 
Thank you both ...

I'd like to run the latest version :-) but at the moment my main machine
is bit-rotting until I get the chance to build my new one...

Cheers,
Wol

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Weirdo code?

[Wol's lists]

I've just tried to do a cut-n-paste into a piece of music, from 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/bars


At the very bottom you'll find

\relative c' {
  c1 \mark \markup { \musicglyph "scripts.segno" }
  c1 \mark \markup { \musicglyph "scripts.coda" }
  c1 \mark \markup { \musicglyph "scripts.ufermata" }
  c1
}

Okay, I was only copying the markup bit - I wanted it as markup in the 
middle of the bar - but I had to add a # as follows:


\markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.coda" }

Looking at the code behind the web page, it looks like that is correct, 
so this is really just a curious enquiry - why is the # required if I 
want a markup, but it's not required if it's a markup within a mark ???


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Character for plural Latin, "ae"

[Wols Lists]

On 24/01/18 22:50, Karlin High wrote:
> Pick your favorite method, any of them can do the job. And you can even
> just copy and past the thing from here: æ

I just tried this in konsole and it worked ...

A

Cheers,
Wol

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Fwd: Re: Engraver action every measure with Scheme

[lists]

Forwarding to the list ...

 Weitergeleitete Nachricht ---
Von: li...@openlilylib.org
An: "Ed Harbison" 
Gesendet: 9. Januar 2018 10:59
Betreff: Re: Engraver action every measure with Scheme
Hi Ed,

9. Januar 2018 09:30, "Ed Harbison"  schrieb:

> Hello all! Sorry if I am doing something wrong with how to do this. I’m new 
> here and have never
> used a mailing list before, so please let me know if I should be doing 
> something different.

So far everything is OK ;-)

> I already tried asking on the Facebook group, but the only responses I got 
> were saying I shouldn’t
> use Scheme.

Interesting. Can you name a general reasoning for that?

> However, I am also using this experience to learn more about LISP in general, 
> so I’d
> love to get some more experience with this.
> I'm currently trying to write a few scheme engravers to insert things like 
> bar lines, rehearsal
> marks, breaks, and the like. I'm using make-engraver.
> 
> I seem to have been able to get breaks in with stop-translation-timestep at 
> certain points, but
> it's so far only breaks that work, and apparently I have an off-by-one error 
> at every bar somehow
> (which is a story for another day).
> 
> Does anyone know a way to specify a check at the beginning/end of every 
> measure to see if something
> needs to happen? Like, say when it's measure 8, a break needs to happen at 
> the end of the bar, and
> when it's measure 17, the beginning of the bar has a rehearsal mark 
> accompanied with a thick single
> bar line.

How exactly do you define "something needs to happen"? This sounds like you 
have to check for some
conditions and respond appropriately (like "whenever we're in the key of a 
major color the note
heads green"), but your description only mentions barnumbers ("when we're in 
measure X do Y").

I definitely don't want to discourage you from learning to use Scheme and to 
interact with
LilyPond's internals, that's a rewarding challenge. But I *think* the tool you 
need already exists:
https://github.com/openlilylib/edition-engraver.
With this you can inject many different things (like tweaks and overrides, 
barlines, breaks, marks,
text and many others) at a given context (Staff/Voice etc.) at a given position 
(defined as
barnumber + position in the measure). You can even inject an element at a 
*list* of positions.

So if you simply need to inject stuff at specific moments the edition-engraver 
gives you all you
need, but if you really need to evaluate conditions at each measure it won't be 
the tool of choice.

HTH
Urs

> Thank you in advance!

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Re: New information (success report) for Frescobaldi 3 and the Ubuntu 16.04 repositories

[lists]

I have now finished a run-through of installation instructions. As I have once 
more renamed it the link is now 
https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/wiki/Installing-Frescobaldi-3-on-Linux-(Package-or-Source)

I'd be glad about feedback:

* confirmation
* questions
* reports about mistakes
* reports about failures
* reports/comments about distributions not covered yet.

Urs

6. Januar 2018 11:41, li...@openlilylib.org schrieb:

> Hi all,
> 
> after all the discussion about getting Frescobaldi to run on distributions 
> based on Ubuntu < 17.xx
> I decided to give it a shot myself.
> 
> TL;DR Frescobaldi *can* be installed on Ubuntu 16.04/Mint 18.3 from its own 
> Git repositories and
> the Ubuntu package repositories without issues.
> 
> Context/Situation:
> I freshly installed Linux Mint 18.3.
> (NOTE: I use a previously existing $HOME directory, but I'm quite sure this 
> doesn't affect the
> process)
> Mint 18.3 is based on Ubuntu 16.04 (Mint 19 will be based on Ubuntu 18.04, 
> the next LTS release),
> and the relevant packages are from the Ubuntu repositories (so no Mint 
> specifics added), which
> means I assume the behaviour on vanilla Ubuntu 16.04 is the same.
> 
> Commented installation steps:
> 
> # Make sure everything is up-to-date
> sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade
> 
> sudo apt install git
> 
> # Install Frescobaldi's primary dependencies
> sudo apt install python3-pyqt5 python3-pyqt5.qtsvg python3-pyqt5.qtwebkit
> 
> # Obtain the Git repositories
> # (I *assume* these could instead be downloaded from Github as ZIP files)
> cd ~
> mkdir git # this is just my personal base directory for Git repositories
> cd git
> git clone https://github.com/wbsoft/python-ly.git python-ly
> git clone https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi.git frescobaldi
> 
> First try to run Frescobaldi: Invoke python3 with the frescobaldi entry file 
> and add python-ly to
> the Python search path:
> 
> PYTHONPATH=$PYTHONPATH:~/git/python-ly python3 ~/git/frescobaldi/frescobaldi
> 
> Frescobaldi correctly starts up, but (expectedly) doesn't show the Music View 
> because the Poppler
> package isn't installed.
> 
> # Install the Poppler bindings from the Ubuntu repositories
> sudo apt install python3-poppler-qt5
> 
> After that Frescobaldi correctly starts and shows scores both in the Music 
> View and in the SVG
> View.
> 
> Knowing this one could have installed all dependencies with one single 
> 
> sudo apt install python3-pyqt5 python3-pyqt5.qtsvg python3-pyqt5.qtwebkit 
> python3-poppler-qt5
> 
> ###
> 
> I don't know enough about this and I can't investigate on a "broken" 
> computer, but I have a
> suspicion.
> The issue is that we have Qt, an application framework written in C++. 
> Frescobaldi is written in
> PyQt, which is a set of Qt "bindings" for Python, so Python programs can use 
> the Qt infrastructure.
> 
> The point is that all bindings packages (which includes the general PyQt 
> infrastructure and the
> custom bindings for the Poppler library that is used to display PDF 
> documents) have to be "compiled
> against" and with the exact versions of Qt and Python that are installed on 
> the system.
> Generally this is an aspect that should be taken care of by a Linux 
> distribution's package
> management system, and my latest try indicates that this works correctly with 
> Ubuntu 16.04 (by
> now?).
> 
> My suspicion is that when using pip (or pip3) for installing the Python 
> packages these relations
> are in some way incorrect, maybe they interfere with packages installed 
> through APT.
> Similarly, when using the setup.py script in the Frescobaldi installation 
> directory things seem not
> to work correctly.
> Finally it is maybe not clear enough in the instructions that *everything* 
> (i.e. Ubuntu packages
> and pip) have to be used in their python3 versions.
> 
> So my final recommendation is: Use Ubuntu's packages and install everything 
> through APT, and avoid
> pip3 or setup.py.
> 
> I will update the Wiki page
> (https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/wiki/Installing-Frescobaldi-3-on-Linux-(package-source),
> note that I have renamed it) and try to make everything as clear as possible. 
> But I wanted to share
> this result and encourage people using Ubuntu 16.04 to test and verify it.
> 
> Best
> Urs
> 
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Re: Fwd: frescobaldi 3

[lists]

6. Januar 2018 12:27, "Blöchl Bernhard"  schrieb:

> Thanks for your kind support!
> 
> To avoid a false delusion, in advance for list members jumping into this 
> thread the good message
> for all linux users that the repository version of frescobaldi is always 
> running clueless. This
> installation discussions are mor or less gymnastic exercises around computer 
> imperfection and not a
> prerequisite to run a frescobaldi on a linux computer.
> 
> I installed, or tried to install frescobaldi 2.20.0 and frescobaldi 3.0.0 a 
> couple of times on
> different linux brands but all based on different ubuntu versions from 16.04 
> (LTS) up to 17, 17.04
> and 17.10. I did not try ubuntu 16.10. With frescobaldi 2.20.0 I always had 
> success, with
> frescobaldi 3.0.0 it always flopped prior to ubuntu 17.x.
> 
> A "clean" installation has python3-ly 0.9.3-1 in the repository. Both 
> frescobaldi versions need
> indispensable python-ly version 0.9.5. I do not find the installation step 
> for python-ly version
> 0.9.5 (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-ly) in your description? Obviously 
> you use a previously
> installed python-ly version 0.9.5, may be a path to another linux version?


As said I am currently updating the Wiki page, but the instructions are there 
(alhtough somewhat scrambled ATM) how to run python-ly from its own Git 
repository (which can also be downloaded).

I have the impression that installing packages through pip does not work 
properly, so my recommendation (which I am currently formulating in the Wiki 
page to be fully clear) for Ubuntu 16.04 (didn't check 16.10 and 17.04) is to 
install everything except python-ly and frescobaldi through apt and 
download/clone these two from Github.
Linux Mint 18.3 is the same.

Urs

>  The other steps I have
> done quite often previously. I will install Linux Mint 18.3 today evening to 
> a blank disk and give
> frescobaldi 3.0.0 another (last) sportive try to satisfy an ambition. But at 
> least I will wait for
> ubuntu Bionic Beaver 18.04 (anounced for late April 2018) to set up a system 
> for the LTS time span.
> 
> Kind regards BB
> 
> Am 06.01.2018 11:06, schrieb li...@openlilylib.org:
> 
>> Hi,
>> I have now installed Linux Mint 18.3 (based on Ubuntu 16.04) on a
>> computer and installed Frescobaldi 3 through apt without *any* issues.
>> First I did
>> sudo apt install python3-pyqt5 python3-pyqt5.qtsvg
>> python3-pyqt5.qtwebkit git
>> Then I cloned the repositories of python-ly and frescobaldi.
>> When I launched Frescobaldi using
>> PYTHONPATH=$PYTHONPATH:/path/to/python-ly
>> Frescobaldi starts, but doesn't open the Music View (because Poppler
>> is missing, of course)
>> Then I tried
>> sudo apt install python3-poppler-qt5
>> upon which Frescobaldi started correctly with both SVG and PDF viewers
>> working.
>> This tells me that the Ubuntu packages are now working properly even
>> for Ubuntu 16.04.
>> There's one caveat that *might* be happening in addition: I am using a
>> previously existing $HOME directory, so there *might* be something I
>> had already configured earlier. But actually I'm quite sure this is
>> not the case, as before installing python3-poppler-qt5 it was not
>> detected at all, while after installation it worked properly.
>> I will write a post to the list with some more reasoning, just to have
>> it recorded publicly.
>> Best
>> Urs
>> 5. Januar 2018 18:27, "bb"  schrieb:
>> Sorry, I forgot to send regards.
> PS: I will wait for the new ubuntu LTS version anounced for April.
>  Weitergeleitete Nachricht 
> BETREFF:
>>> Re: frescobaldi 3
> DATUM:
>>> Fri, 5 Jan 2018 18:21:54 +0100
> VON:
>>> bb 
> AN:
>>> li...@openlilylib.org
> Am 05.01.2018 um 16:23 schrieb li...@openlilylib.org:
> One more short "shot" 5. Januar 2018 15:08, "bb"
>>>  schrieb:
> As the last line of the installation process of frescobaldi-3.0.0
>>> is:RuntimeError: popplerqt5 cannot import type '' from
>>> PyQt5.QtCore ~/frescobaldi-3.0.0 $
> Does that mean you run the `setup.py` file from Frescobaldi? I have
>>> never done so, and in "my" instructions this is not mentioned.
>> 
>> I first tried with " python3 frescobaldi". But "python3 frescobaldi"
>> does display the icon only for short time and disappears, as described
>> in the past mails. Then I read the INSTALL document of
>> fresobaldi-3.0.0 and experimented further. I will repeat to
>> load/install the libs and try again without using "sudo python3
>> setup.py install" from frescobaldi-3.0.0.
>> In a first step I installed PyQt5 from
>> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/PyQt5 [2] with
>> "pip3 install PyQt5"
>> My suspicion is that after having manually installed
>>> python-poppler-qt5 from the Git repository using "setup.py" from
>>> Frescobaldi will essentially trash that effort by installing the
>>> package from the 

New information (success report) for Frescobaldi 3 and the Ubuntu 16.04 repositories

[lists]

Hi all,

after all the discussion about getting Frescobaldi to run on distributions 
based on Ubuntu < 17.xx I decided to give it a shot myself.

TL;DR Frescobaldi *can* be installed on Ubuntu 16.04/Mint 18.3 from its own Git 
repositories and the Ubuntu package repositories without issues.

Context/Situation:
I freshly installed Linux Mint 18.3.
(NOTE: I use a previously existing $HOME directory, but I'm quite sure this 
doesn't affect the process)
Mint 18.3 is based on Ubuntu 16.04 (Mint 19 will be based on Ubuntu 18.04, the 
next LTS release),
and the relevant packages are from the Ubuntu repositories (so no Mint 
specifics added), which means I assume the behaviour on vanilla Ubuntu 16.04 is 
the same.

Commented installation steps:

# Make sure everything is up-to-date
sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade

sudo apt install git

# Install Frescobaldi's primary dependencies
sudo apt install python3-pyqt5 python3-pyqt5.qtsvg python3-pyqt5.qtwebkit

# Obtain the Git repositories
# (I *assume* these could instead be downloaded from Github as ZIP files)
cd ~
mkdir git  # this is just my personal base directory for Git repositories
cd git
git clone https://github.com/wbsoft/python-ly.git python-ly
git clone https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi.git frescobaldi

First try to run Frescobaldi: Invoke python3 with the frescobaldi entry file 
and add python-ly to the Python search path:

PYTHONPATH=$PYTHONPATH:~/git/python-ly python3 ~/git/frescobaldi/frescobaldi

Frescobaldi correctly starts up, but (expectedly) doesn't show the Music View 
because the Poppler package isn't installed.

# Install the Poppler bindings from the Ubuntu repositories
sudo apt install python3-poppler-qt5

After that Frescobaldi correctly starts and shows scores both in the Music View 
and in the SVG View.

Knowing this one could have installed all dependencies with one single 

sudo apt install python3-pyqt5 python3-pyqt5.qtsvg python3-pyqt5.qtwebkit 
python3-poppler-qt5

###

I don't know enough about this and I can't investigate on a "broken" computer, 
but I have a suspicion.
The issue is that we have Qt, an application framework written in C++. 
Frescobaldi is written in PyQt, which is a set of Qt "bindings" for Python, so 
Python programs can use the Qt infrastructure. 
The point is that all bindings packages (which includes the general PyQt 
infrastructure and the custom bindings for the Poppler library that is used to 
display PDF documents) have to be "compiled against" and with the exact 
versions of Qt and Python that are installed on the system.
Generally this is an aspect that should be taken care of by a Linux 
distribution's package management system, and my latest try indicates that this 
works correctly with Ubuntu 16.04 (by now?).

My suspicion is that when using pip (or pip3) for installing the Python 
packages these relations are in some way incorrect, maybe they interfere with 
packages installed through APT.
Similarly, when using the setup.py script in the Frescobaldi installation 
directory things seem not to work correctly.
Finally it is maybe not clear enough in the instructions that *everything* 
(i.e. Ubuntu packages and pip) have to be used in their python3 versions.

So my final recommendation is: Use Ubuntu's packages and install everything 
through APT, and avoid pip3 or setup.py.

I will update the Wiki page 
(https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/wiki/Installing-Frescobaldi-3-on-Linux-(package-source),
 note that I have renamed it) and try to make everything as clear as possible. 
But I wanted to share this result and encourage people using Ubuntu 16.04 to 
test and verify it.

Best
Urs

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Re: Next round on frescobaldi dependencies

[lists]

Hi all,

I must add some more confusion to this issue.

I just had the opportunity to install a new OS from scratch and did (exactly) 
the following:
* Install Ubuntu MATE 17.10 from DVD 
* sudo apt update 
* sudo apt upgrade 
* sudo apt install etckepper (definitely not related to all of this, 
but just for sake of completeness) 
* sudo apt install frescobaldi 

This gave me a *working* installation of Frescobaldi, including LilyPond 2.18.2 
and both the PDF and the SVG viewer working properly

After making the frescobaldi and python-ly Git repositories available (and 
installing Git itself) I could invoke frescobaldi directly wtih
PYTHONPATH=$PYTHONPATH:/path/to/python-ly python3 /path/to/frescobaldi

which gave me a working "development" version of Frescobaldi.

I haven't yet figured out how to add a menu entry for the Git installation (it 
seems the package manager installation "shadows" the other one), but I have to 
state that I *did* successfully install Frescobaldi 3 on a clean Ubuntu 17.10 
installation without *any* dependency problems.

Urs

28. Dezember 2017 08:55, "Andrew Bernard" )> schrieb:
Hello Urs and all,
 Following your excellent instructions on the dependenicies, always difficult 
to work out, especially when detail is missing, I am immediately presented with 
the same old core dump on startup, as per usual. I am using Ubuntu 17.10, 
kernel 4.13.0-21-generic (not that the kernel would make a difference!).
 Clearly there are deeper dependencies and issues at play here. I would not 
have imagined a python program could be so troublesome, and so difficult to 
understand and fix. I guess it is due to the complexity of the Qt ecosystem 
world. 
I remain stuck on Mint 18 for F at the moment therefore. Annoying, as all my 
other work is on Ubuntu 17. 
Andrew
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Re: Change the text within a volta

[Wols Lists]

On 30/12/17 18:48, nokel81 wrote:
> Thank you very much however, my text comes out really weird. I have set my
> font- name to "sans" but that doesn't seem to help.
>  
> 
I think the problem(s) I had were

1) the default font was only numbers, hence having to set the font to
something with the alphabet, and
2) yes I also had the problem with the weird letters.

Fonts in lilypond give me grief. It could be you haven't actually got
sans, so it's selecting the closest match which is the fonts it uses for
music text like forte, sforzando etc, which is why you have the weird
italic.

I'll have to let someone else talk you through that, but it clearly is a
font problem :-(

If you care to search the list archives, the piece is Radetzky March so
if you search for posts of mine about Radetzky, you'll find the
thread(s) where people helped me.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Change the text within a volta

[Wols Lists]

On 29/12/17 22:32, nokel81 wrote:
> Yes, I tried using the raw tag, I guess it didn't work.
> 
> \omit Score.BarLine
> \repeat volta 3 {}
> \alternative {
>   {}
>   {
>   \undo \omit Score.BarLine
>   \bar "|"
>   f2
>   \bar "|"
>   }
>   {
>   f4( ees c) ees ees( f) f2 f
>   }
> }
> 
Not a minimal example, it won't compile on its own, but I think this
does what you're after. I have a couple of voltae, and there's different
text for them.

voiceMarkup =  {
s1*4 \bar "||" \mark \markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.segno" }
s1*15

\override Staff.VoltaBracket #'font-name = #"sans"
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "No repeat"))
{ s1 \bar "||" }
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f) \text (volta "To Trio")
end-repeat)
{ s1 \bar "||" \mark \markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.ufermata" } }
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f))

s1*16
{ \mark \markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.segno" } } \noBreak
\stopStaff \cadenzaOn s32 _\markup { \right-align "D.S. al Trio" }
s2 \cadenzaOff \startStaff
{ \mark \markup { "Trio" } }
s1*4 \bar "||"
s1*16
\repeat volta 2 {
s1*15 } \alternative { { s1 } { s1 _\markup { "D.C." } } }
}

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Two short questions

[Wols Lists]

On 28/12/17 16:07, Malte Meyn wrote:
> Have a look at the PDF in the post linked above: The function can do
> both uppercase (AA) and mixedcase (Aa) (but not yet lowercase (aa)).

Sorry, I did look, but obviously missed it ... :-(

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Two short questions

[Wols Lists]

On 28/12/17 15:37, Malte Meyn wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 28.12.2017 um 16:34 schrieb Malte Meyn:
>>
>>
>> Am 28.12.2017 um 16:03 schrieb Jérôme Plût:
>>> 1. I am typesetting some music which is in 2/1, and mark using a cut
>>> time signature. How is it possible with Lilypond to put a ℂ symbol for
>>> a 2/1 time ? (see attachment, line 1)
>>
>>\time 2/1
>>\set Score.timeSignatureFraction = 2/2
>>
>>> 2. In virtually all orchestra scores I play the alphabetic marks skip
>>> the letter J. However format-mark-box-letters skips the letter I. So
>>> at each rehearsal this confuses all my colleagues. Since they are
>>> obviously slow to learn that I == J, does there exist a simple way to
>>> make a format-mark-box-letters that uses I instead of J, or should I
>>> start scheming something out of of make-markalphabet-markup?
>>> (see attachment, line 2)
>>
>> I made a generic mark formatting function that can do that, I just
>> have to find it, give me some minutes ;)
> 
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-05/msg00156.html
> 
> If you (or someone else) like it, I’ll follow Harm’s suggestion in the
> quoted post and make a patch for discussion.
> 
My reaction would be to take your version, and rewrite all the others to
call it. That way you don't break existing code, but you simplify lily
itself in that there is just one function.

When alphabet was added (for me :-) there was a random mix of frames,
content, etc. Somebody kindly wrote both bar-number and alphabet for me,
and I went through the random muddle pointing out which combinations
were missing, resulting in the (hopefully) sane set we have today :-) So
your function would keep any additions sane, in that any combination is
possible.

Oh, and by the way, to throw yet another variation into the mix, in the
(very few) scores I've seen that go past Z, they all go AA, BB, and not
Aa, Bb.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Two short questions

[Wols Lists]

On 28/12/17 15:03, Jérôme Plût wrote:
> 2. In virtually all orchestra scores I play the alphabetic marks skip
> the letter J. However format-mark-box-letters skips the letter I. So
> at each rehearsal this confuses all my colleagues. Since they are
> obviously slow to learn that I == J, does there exist a simple way to
> make a format-mark-box-letters that uses I instead of J, or should I
> start scheming something out of of make-markalphabet-markup?
> (see attachment, line 2)

Not that my scheme-fu is up to it, but I do something similar with the
header layout code.

Find the function that defines "letters" as "ABCDEFGHJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ".
Copy it into the appropriate place in your score (I've made mine an
include file, much easier) and change J to I.

Then carry on using box-letters, just that your custom version skips J.

The alternative is to use mark-alphabet, and after "\mark \default %I",
instead of doing \default, do "\mark 10", which explicitly jumps J.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Next round on frescobaldi dependencies

[lists]

23. Dezember 2017 03:30, "Simon Albrecht" )> schrieb:
Hello everybody, 
 just to let you know: After gathering from the recent thread that the 
situation with frescobaldi dependencies and conflicting versions of python 
would be easier to handle with Ubuntu 17, I tried getting it to work on a 
pristine 17.10 live system – unsucessfully, with another weird bug (?) 
preventing to build sip from source. Here’s all the details: 
https://github.com/wbsoft/python-poppler-qt5/issues/14#issuecomment-353697574 
(https://github.com/wbsoft/python-poppler-qt5/issues/14#issuecomment-353697574>)
  
Best, Simon  
Hello all,

by chance I just had the opportunity to sit in front of a computer with a 
freshly installed Ubuntu Mate 17.10.
Although LilyPond isn't on the list of things to be installed on that computer 
I couldn't resist ...

I went through the instructions on 
https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/wiki/Running-Frescobaldi-3-From-Source-Git-(Linux)
 
(https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/wiki/Running-Frescobaldi-3-From-Source-Git-(Linux))
 - and to my great surprise I didn't have any issues.

I installed the dependencies with
 sudo apt install git python3-pyqt5 python3-pyqt5.qtsvg python3-poppler-qt5 
python3-pyqt5.qtwebkit

(note that the qtwebkit package was missing from the instructions (and I have 
updated them accordingly))

then cloned the repositories of Frescobaldi and python-ly,
added python-ly to PYTHONPATH

and could immediately invoke Frescobaldi with `python3 path/to/frescobaldi`

including the music view and the SVG viewer.

Just to let everybody know.

Best
Urs
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Re: Auto-transposition

[Wol's lists]

On 18/12/17 15:08, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

Hi Saul,


\resetRelativeOctave belongs IMO always as part of the definition of a music 
expression, ideally on the line directly preceding note entry.

Agreed.

Until it's a repeated phrase, but not necessarily the same octave. iirc 
(as I said it's a long time ago) this phrase kept cropping up in the music.


Horses for courses, and I think I didn't put \resetRelativeOctave in the 
variable itself because it didn't work for some reason.


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Auto-transposition

[Wols Lists]

On 15/12/17 17:48, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> > Actually, I think it had to do with midi output for bass
> clarinet.   The
> > sample I used was not transposed the octave, and I had to
> compensate by
> > transposing the music down.
> 
> According to Wikipedia, bass clarinet is written in treble clef but
> played one octave lower than written (after subtracting the usual B♭
> transposition).  So, uh, I have no idea?
> 
> 
> 
> Correct, I'd entered the music in the printed octave, 
> and wanted to hear it in the sounding octave.
> 
Which is actually why I always like \relative when entering music. I
just alter the reference pitch up or down an octave to suit ...

I gather \fixed would have the same effect - I might have to try
changing to that because it would probably help avoid me getting stuff
going all over the place - I do tend to enter all the notes before I
compile and check it so a couple of missed commas or apostrophes results
in ledger lines galore :-)

If you want to print it with the treble rather than the treble_8 clef,
I'd be inclined to enter it in the correct octave with \relative then
\transpose it up the octave just for printing.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Auto-transposition

[Wols Lists]

On 15/12/17 13:45, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 15 Dec 2017 at 10:02:19 (+), Wols Lists wrote:
>> On 15/12/17 06:20, Saul Tobin wrote:
>>> Relative mode makes perfect sense if you're entering music that cares
>>> mainly about the relationship between notes within a phrase (i.e. most
>>> music). IMO absolute mode might be easier from the perspective of the
>>> software, but it's not how most musicians think, and that's
>>> important. Maybe the documentation could do a better job explaining the
>>> semantics of relative mode and when to use \resetRelativeOctave?
>>>
>>> I take exception to the idea that relative mode ought to be deprecated.
>>> I've been using exclusively relative mode to compose for almost ten
>>> years, and I think it's great.
>>
>> I think Han-Wen actually wrote \resetRelativeOctave for me :-)
>>
>> But if you don't understand relative then it will mess you up.
>>
>> Does anybody (not me :-) want to write a little update for the docu that
>> will make both relative mode and \resetRelativeOctave (hopefully) clear?
>>
>> It originated when I was (iirc) transcribing Chattanooga Choo-Choo, and
>> there's a repeated phrase, so I thought I'd define it as a variable.
>> OOOPPSS! The starting and ending notes are a fifth or more apart, and
>> the phrase repeats with nothing else in-between. The resulting staircase
>> was spectacular!
>>
>> If somebody would care to take that as hint for putting an example in
>> the docu, that's fine by me! :-)
> 
> Just use \relative early.
> 
I was thinking more along the lines of (note this is NOT TESTED)

phrase = { c f d g }

\relative { \phrase \phrase \phrase }

\relative { \resetRelativeOctave \phrase \resetRelativeOctave \phrase
\resetRelativeOctave \phrase }

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Auto-transposition

[Wols Lists]

On 15/12/17 06:20, Saul Tobin wrote:
> Relative mode makes perfect sense if you're entering music that cares
> mainly about the relationship between notes within a phrase (i.e. most
> music). IMO absolute mode might be easier from the perspective of the
> software, but it's not how most musicians think, and that's
> important. Maybe the documentation could do a better job explaining the
> semantics of relative mode and when to use \resetRelativeOctave?
> 
> I take exception to the idea that relative mode ought to be deprecated.
> I've been using exclusively relative mode to compose for almost ten
> years, and I think it's great.

I think Han-Wen actually wrote \resetRelativeOctave for me :-)

But if you don't understand relative then it will mess you up.

Does anybody (not me :-) want to write a little update for the docu that
will make both relative mode and \resetRelativeOctave (hopefully) clear?

It originated when I was (iirc) transcribing Chattanooga Choo-Choo, and
there's a repeated phrase, so I thought I'd define it as a variable.
OOOPPSS! The starting and ending notes are a fifth or more apart, and
the phrase repeats with nothing else in-between. The resulting staircase
was spectacular!

If somebody would care to take that as hint for putting an example in
the docu, that's fine by me! :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Windows 10

[Wols Lists]

On 01/12/17 14:15, peter.gen...@sunscales.co.uk wrote:
> Everything worked fine but after one fateful OS update I found to extra
> folders in C:\windows\users\  , PETERDESKTOP and PETERDESKTOP.000.

Did this update do a "clean install" of Windows?

That sounds to me like you've done a fresh install of Windows over an
existing setup, so PETERDESKTOP was the original user, and because you
(or the upgrade) created a new PETERDESKTOP user, it had to create a new
PETERDESKTOP.000 folder as the home folder.

I suspect you want to merge the original PETERDESKTOP folder into the
new PETERDESKTOP.000, but I'm not sure what side effects that will have ...

Cheers,
Wol

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Indicate (barre) frets for chords to be played in guitar sheets

[nospam001-lists]

Hey there,

I recall having read about that topic in the list a (rather long) while ago, 
though I'm not too sure about it. But anyway, there is a possibility to put 
text above the chord names and make chord names look the way one wants it, but 
is there some kind of best practice? Could somebody point me to the correct 
LSR page, which surely exists?

Thanks a lot, folks!

Kindest regards, Jan

-- 
MfG Jan

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Re: Markings on a percent bar

[Wol's lists]

On 23/11/17 18:14, David Kastrup wrote:

The problem, from my point of view, is that lilypond syntax is simple
and makes sense to me. As soon as scheme gets involved, the learning
curve is like hitting a cliff.



The Scheme "involved" here is a music function wrapper.  The body of the
music function did not contain a single line of Scheme.


-)

Except even looking at it I have difficulty understanding it ...

That said, I didn't know about countPercentRepeats. So that's a 
worthwhile hint you've given me. Is there a similar thing for counting 
exploded multi-measure-rests?


(And yes, it was a long time ago, but I *HAVE* read the lily 
documentation cover to cover - several times - proof-reading it.)


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Markings on a percent bar

[Wol's lists]

On 23/11/17 17:17, David Kastrup wrote:

Can anybody give me any hints?

I really hate it when people don't even_try_  entering a single note
themselves and leave all the work to every single reader.


Sorry. But it might be a problem someone's already solved, seeing as 
it's pretty common in my sort  of music.


That being said, you could use something like

visibleAfter =
#(define-music-function (n mus) (index? ly:music?)


At which point we are into music functions, and scheme, and EVERY time 
I've tried to do this sort of stuff I just get absolutely nowhere.


I'm quite happy to have a crack at improving that for my generic case, 
but if I do it'll probably just be a case of me making a mess of it and 
mailing the list saying "help what am I doing wrong".


The problem, from my point of view, is that lilypond syntax is simple 
and makes sense to me. As soon as scheme gets involved, the learning 
curve is like hitting a cliff.


But thanks - if I read the code correctly, this will be useful for a lot 
of my scenarios.


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Markings on a percent bar

[Wols Lists]

On 23/11/17 16:53, SoundsFromSound wrote:
> Wols Lists wrote
>> This is actually very common in my sort of music. As you can see, I have
>> a "\repeat percent 4 {}", and I have both a crescendo starting on the
>> fourth bar, plus the number "4" above it.
>>
>> Can anybody give me any hints?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Wol
>>

> 
> Hi,
> 
> I believe this will help you add markup to your percent repeats :) Perhaps?
> 
> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Adding-markup-to-percent-repeat-sign-td158763.html
> 
Thanks - I'll have to have a play. This looks perfect for this
particular instance, but it wouldn't fly for the general problem.

But it gets me out of *this* hole :-)

Cheers,
Wol


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Markings on a percent bar

[Wols Lists]

This is actually very common in my sort of music. As you can see, I have
a "\repeat percent 4 {}", and I have both a crescendo starting on the
fourth bar, plus the number "4" above it.

And I don't know where to start trying to enter this ... :-)

That "4" is actually a simple example of a common construct - it means
the fourth repeated bar. If I had had six bars, it might have had "4",
"5", "6" - it always starts counting at the first bar, but usually only
prints the count starting some way in (as here, with 4). It's also very
commonly used when you have cue parts, the player may have 16 or more
bars rest with cues.

Can anybody give me any hints?

Cheers,
Wol
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Re: [OT] Grammatic gender

[Wols Lists]

On 18/11/17 18:18, Karlin High wrote:
> On 11/18/2017 11:33 AM, David Wright wrote:
>> You might find yourself being
>> misunderstood in more serious circumstances, if you don't allow
>> for the same words to mean different things, or even the opposite.
> 
> Reminds me of my cousin on a business trip to England. He learned that,
> unlike in America, the terms "phone card" and "calling card" are NOT
> equivalent and interchangeable.

Which is why, while I don't give a monkeys which version of English you
use (and I *most* *emphatically* *do* *not* think "Standard English" is
THE correct form of English), I really would like to know which version
you are speaking because I would like to understand you.

Calling cards pre-date phones. And while I don't know exactly where the
critters live, I think if a skunk left its calling card close by you'd
know about it! Certainly it's a damn nuisance when the foxes leave
theirs outside our doors.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: [OT] Grammatic gender

[Wol's lists]

On 17/11/17 16:10, David Wright wrote:

On Fri 17 Nov 2017 at 07:45:58 (-0500), Kieren MacMillan wrote:

Hi all,




[Am 17.11.2017 um 08:55 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm:]



An apostrophe in German is a sign for something left out like "so’n Ding" (short for "so ein 
Ding"), similar to English use in "don’t" (do not).


It's the same in English, naturally.


It's just one of its uses, true. But the following sentence said:

«"While it would make some sense to use it in "mein’s" ("meines"), while still being unnecessary, it makes no 
sense at all to use it in a genitive like "Lisa’s" except in cases like "Jens’s" (oldfashioned but complete would 
be "Jensens").»¹

implying that something *has to be* omitted for an apostrophe to make
sense, but that is not true in English.


Examples, please. A suitably "grammatically correct" one, please :-)



Even the possessive "Kieren's" is derived from old English "Kierenes" (though 
even most native speakers don't know that).


Of course, they don't need to know that because English accepts
's tacked onto almost anything to indicate a possessive relationship.²

Because the CORRECT possessive ending, as mentioned above, is "es". 
Except it's been corrupted to " 's ". In other words, if you tack " 's " 
onto the end of a word to indicate the possessive, something HAS been 
omitted, namely the "e". Which is why it's wrong to use an apostrophe 
with the possessive "its", because there was never an "e" there in the 
first place.



Native speakers don't learn the language by studying its derivations,
but by being immersed in it. At school, they are taught "rules" that
make it easier to cope with the areas where immersion is less than
total (eg writing, formal constructions).


And said rules nearly always have their roots in genuine stuff. All too 
often I agree the rules are mis-applied, especially when they state that 
a modern young construct is "more correct" than the older construct that 
preceded it, "Standard English" is a very young language, but I do 
strongly support the use of "Standard English" and its associated rules 
- one of which is that an apostrophe indicates omitted letters, usually 
in the possessive, and should not be used where letters have not been 
left out.


(Dialect is not Standard English, if you want to talk dialect that's 
fine, just accept that it is not standard.)


Only specialists have to worry about derivations. They can't be
ignored when trying to tease out what the underlying rules of a
language really are; similarly, the mistakes made by children are
an important aspect of searching for those rules.

Anybody who cares about communicating should care about language. And if 
you care about language you need to care about derivation and grammar 
and all that stuff. If you don't, you get into the Humpty Dumpty world 
of "words mean what  I say they mean" and you can't understand what 
someone else is saying - I had a perfect example of that this morning 
when somebody said "close a door" when they meant "lock a door". It's 
horribly frustrating when you're talking at cross purposes because you 
don't know what the other person means. To bring it into computerese, 
it's like people saying "computer memory" when they mean the hard disk...


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: [OT] Grammatic gender

[Wols Lists]

On 16/11/17 13:58, Karlin High wrote:
> On 11/16/2017 7:45 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
>> Personally, I don't think that micromanaging gender identities is going
>> to help anybody deal better with who and what they and/or others are.
> 
> "Shifts in terms have an unfortunate side effect. Many people who don't
> have a drop of malice or prejudice but happen to be older or distant
> from university, media and government spheres find themselves tainted as
> bigots for innocently using passe terms such as "Oriental" or "crippled."
> 
> "Arbiters of the changing linguistic fashions must ask themselves
> whether this stigmatization is really what they set out to accomplish."

As I found out on Groklaw whenever the topic of race came up. As far as
I can tell, the word "Black" is extremely offensive in America,
certainly it triggered instant censorship on Groklaw.

So what am I supposed to do? Over here, blacks are not "African
Americans", they're not American, and would object to the word African
especially as many are Caribbean - as am I except that I'm white.

I now use the term "Politically Correct" as an insult :-)

Oh, and as to the original German court ruling, as a Scientist I have to
argue that they got it right. I know of NO definition that can be
accurately used to determine a person's gender other than what they
define themselves as.

Something as simple as genotype, we don't have two, we have four (the
minor two are rather unusual, admittedly). We don't have two phenotypes,
we have three (the third being very ambiguous in more ways than one :-).
And there is no perfect correlation between genotype and phenotype -
even within out standard "two of each" model, there is no guarantee the
genotype and phenotype match.

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: [OT] Grammatic gender

[Wol's lists]

On 15/11/17 20:32, David Kastrup wrote:

David Wright  writes:


On Wed 15 Nov 2017 at 11:56:07 (-0500), Kieren MacMillan wrote:

Hi Simon,





A duchess has gender, but I don't see that the word "duchess" has
grammatical gender. How is that expressed?


"The duchess ate her lunch" as opposed to "The duchess ate its lunch"?

German: "Das Mädchen aß seine Mahlzeit.".


Except that "her" refers to the person, not the noun ...

Mind you, I would feel happy with the following:
The cat ate its lunch (indeterminate gender)
The tom ate its lunch (we know it's male because it's a tom)
The queen ate its lunch (we know it's female because it's a queen)

But I suspect that's because we rarely use "tom" or "queen", and your 
mind substitutes the indeterminate "cat".



It may seem so, because the articles for all three genders are the
same, but words are referred to by ‘he’, ‘she’, or ‘it’. In
English the sun is male, the moon female


I've spoken English my entire life, and I have literally never heard
an exchange like:

   Q: Is the sun up yet?
   A: Yes — he rose an hour ago.


Neither have I, though there is the song "The sun has got his hat on".
Again, personification, not grammar.


"Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd"

Sonnet 18 by Shakespeare.

But again, personification, not grammar. To me that feels slightly weird 
- as far as I am concerned the sun is "it".


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: [OT] Grammatic gender

[Wols Lists]

On 15/11/17 01:13, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> Often people refer to boats as 'she', but that's not a part of grammar.

And the same boat is, so I understand, usually referred to BY THE CREW,
as "he". So your own boat is "he", others are "she".

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: double time signature problem

[Wols Lists]

On 15/11/17 10:51, Knut Petersen wrote:
> Am 15.11.2017 um 00:26 schrieb Noeck:
>>
>>> The diminutive of „Magd“ is „Mägdelein“ or maybe „Mägdchen“ (nobody
>>> would use the latter), but not „Mädchen“.
>> But still "Mädchen" seems to be derived from "Magd":
>> http://www.wissen.de/wortherkunft/maedchen
> 
> Yes, Grimm agrees
> .
> 
> It's a pity that Mark Twain did not know about "Mensch": "Der Mensch"
> (masculine) means "the human being". The old "das Mensch" (neuter) 
> means "a female human being" and is still occasionally used in some
> areas of Germany. Plural: "Die Menscher" ;-)
> 
Oddly enough, (and "mensch" is translated as "man" when used as a swear
word) the English word "Man" originally also meant "the human being". Eg
"mankind".

It had two ?Norse prefixes to add gender, Wer-Man and Wif-Man. The Wer
presumably got dropped (but survives in words like were-wolf), while
Wif-Man became Woman and, presumably, also Wife.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: double time signature problem

[Wols Lists]

On 14/11/17 16:50, Karlin High wrote:
> And I just learned something there:
> 
> "Der Hund hat den Mann gebissen" and
> "Den Mann hat der Hund gebissen"
> both mean "The dog has bitten the man".
> 
> I knew the Russian language had that word-order feature/bug, but didn't
> realize German did too. My knowledge of German is mostly limited to a
> Schwäbisch-Pfälzisch dialect filtered through 12 generations in America.

This is actually a *normal* feature of most languages. English is
actually very unusual in that nouns, for the most part, do not visibly
decline (that is - the form used remains the same regardless of whether
the noun is subject, object, dative, whatever. The only visible change
is the addition of 's for the genitive).

"der Hund" means "the dog (subject)", and "den Mann" means "the man
(object)", so it's perfectly clear who bit whom, regardless of where the
word is in the sentence.

You can get confusion, because in German they decline the word "the",
and combined with a noun that changes in the right way, you might get it
all ambiguous.

It's the same with gender - and that can also be confusing especially
when making a diminutive. "Die Frau" (feminine), "Das Fraulein"
(neuter). "Die Mad", "Das Madchen" likewise. Again, here English is very
unusual because words do not have a gender (the objects they refer to
may, but that's different ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Transposing an entire score

[Wols Lists]

On 08/11/17 19:38, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: Transposing an entire score
> On 08/11/17 11:42, Francisco Vila wrote:
> > Transposing every definition does work indeed, but it is a potential
> > source of problems for reusing that music (maybe in another
> > transposition) unless you want the music definitions transposed at
> > origin once and forever, for some reason.
> 
> When I'm dealing with a transposed part and want it back in C ? :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Wol
> 
> 
> This is no different than the original problem.
> 
> Except that it is already solved, since we started with everything in
> concert.
> 
You might. I don't :-)

That's the point. *I* have parts in a random mix of C and Bb, so I want
everything internal to lilypond to be in concert.

Cheers,
Wol


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