Re: Debian rsync problems
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 10:47:23PM +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Shachar Shemesh wrote: > > >Shaul Karl wrote: > > > >> My true suggestion is to raise the problem on > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >I'll probably do that. That's actually the information I was really > >looking for. > > I'm not sure it's the right forum, but there is a debian-mirrors > moderated mailing list > (http://lists.debian.org/debian-mirrors/). > Neither do I. Its archive has Dec 2002 as the last time there was a new post. Quoting http://lists.debian.org/debian-mirrors debian-mirrors mailing list News and announcements regarding FTP archive mirrors Important changes to the FTP archive are announced here. These are mainly useful to maintainers of Debian mirrors. All posts to this list are moderated. http://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html has a complete index for debian mailing lists. One more page to look into if we run out of ideas. I mentioned debian-devel because it looks to me a proper place and because as far as I remember, once or twice in the distant past there were senior Debian developers who answered me when I complained about a mirror. In any case I believe that for now the maintainers of mirror.hamakor.org.il are trying to establish or deny a connection between a specific primary mirror and the problems that we are having. Looks a reasonable approach to me in attacking the problem. -- Shaul Karl,shaulk @ actcom . net . il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 10:25:47PM +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Rony Shapiro wrote: > > > > >>What about "cvs -qn up -r bugfix16"? > >> > >> > >> > > > >Exactly my point - you have to define a label "bugfix16", and adhere to > >that > >naming convention. What if someone creates a label "BugFix18"? The system > >does not enforce any policy - you need the discipline to adhere to naming > >conventions, and the luck to avoid typos... > > > What's wrong with having a script to enforce this, > e.g. "submit-bugfix 16"? > > In my previous workplace we had a very very good locally evolved > working procedure and command-line tools writen as Perl scripts > wrapping Perforce and doing other stuff around it like updating the > bugs database etc. > > In my current workplace me and a co-worker from the previous workplace > are trying to reach a similar state, currently on top of CVS. There is so,ething called "cvszilla": http://homepages.kcbbs.gen.nz/~tonyg/ from what I read it is not trivial to install... -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 09:14:43PM +0300, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > update-binfmts is part of a separate debian package (update-binfmts ?) $ apt-cache search update-binfmts binfmt-support - Support for extra binary formats $ Package: binfmt-support 1.2.2 Support for extra binary formats The binfmt_misc kernel module, contained in versions 2.1.43 and later of the Linux kernel, allows system administrators to register interpreters for various binary formats based on a magic number or their file extension, and cause the appropriate interpreter to be invoked whenever a matching file is executed. Think of it as a more flexible version of the #! executable interpreter mechanism. This package provides an 'update-binfmts' script with which package maintainers can register interpreters to be used with this module without having to worry about writing their own init.d scripts, and which sysadmins can use for a slightly higher-level interface to this module. -- Shaul Karl,shaulk @ actcom . net . il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 20:21, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > dittigas wrote: > > >On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 19:36, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > > > > > >>dittigas wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>And, on Debian Unstable install seems to fail with: > >>> > >>>FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. > >>>update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. > >>> > >>>Manually running update-binfmts --enable gives: > >>> > >>>update-binfmts --enable > >>>FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. > >>>update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Which package are you using? > >> > >> > >> > > > >See full output: > > > > > > > > > > > What I meant was "Where did you get the package from". > Official Unstable repository. > Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian rsync problems
Shachar Shemesh wrote: Shaul Karl wrote: My true suggestion is to raise the problem on [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'll probably do that. That's actually the information I was really looking for. I'm not sure it's the right forum, but there is a debian-mirrors moderated mailing list (http://lists.debian.org/debian-mirrors/). --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
We have Tortoise as an open-source CVS client for Windows, integrates very nicely with the Windows Explorer. But the guy/company we hired to setup a basic development environment for us shows us how Eclipse is actually the best CVS GUI interface, for any platform. For Linux, there is Cervisia for CVS KDE client. Thanks for the pointers to diff utils, I'm looking for something a-la beyond compare but more available. --Amos Tzahi Fadida wrote: read this, very enlightening "converting from clearcase to cvs" http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/info-cvs/2002-02/msg00552.html also, note that there is a cvs for win32 (i.g: win 2000) www.cvsnt.org works fairly well, but the linux version is better. for clients in windows you have wincvs that i can tell you that even INTEL uses and recommend. for linux you have many good client tools, checkout freshmeat.net A good open source diff/merge tool you can find at sourceforge.net - winmerge for windows. for linux there are "meld" in kde i believe, and kdiff3 http://kdiff3.sourceforge.net/ and kompare http://bruggie.dnsalias.org/kompare/ enjoy * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Josh Roden Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:44 AM To: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Your email is protected by Mailshell -- As you requested, this email was forwarded to you by Mailshell. Mailshell will forward your replies to this email and keep your private email address safe. To unsubscribe safely and easily using Mailshell or to stop forwarding: http://www.mailshell.com/control.html?a=blshp8b9gc0rxhgk_srox_llfpptvypmvy7j Wouldn't you rather have amos-sha.com as your personal domain? http://rd.mailshell.com/ad465 Earn up to $3 for each of your friends who signs up with Mailshell! http://rd.mailshell.com/sp5 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Rony Shapiro wrote: What about "cvs -qn up -r bugfix16"? Exactly my point - you have to define a label "bugfix16", and adhere to that naming convention. What if someone creates a label "BugFix18"? The system does not enforce any policy - you need the discipline to adhere to naming conventions, and the luck to avoid typos... What's wrong with having a script to enforce this, e.g. "submit-bugfix 16"? In my previous workplace we had a very very good locally evolved working procedure and command-line tools writen as Perl scripts wrapping Perforce and doing other stuff around it like updating the bugs database etc. In my current workplace me and a co-worker from the previous workplace are trying to reach a similar state, currently on top of CVS. Again, I agree that this is *possible* in CVS, but it depends on the goodwill, self-discipline, and luck of all the programmers involved. Programmer discipline is important in any case. You can make it easier by providing tools (e.g. scripts) which must be used in order to touch stuff in your CVS/bug-database. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
dittigas wrote: Exported LANG as he_IL.UTF-8 got: keyboard:X11DRV_KEYBOARD_DetectLayout Your keyboard layout was not found! Yes, ok. But did Hebrew work? Was the order of characters correct? Exported LANG as he_IL.ISO-8859-8 and got the same error with an additional complaint: err:keyboard:X11DRV_ToUnicode Please report: no char for keysym 0CF7 (hebrew_qoph) : for all keys, not just "koph", reporting "koph" was pressed. Try setting it to he_IL.ISO8859-8, or just he_IL BTW Tzafrir, my custom 2.6-test4 kernel didn't have misc support and when removing, I realized mono was dependent on it. It was originaly installed with 2.4.20 kernel so I didn't get any errors. -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
Exported LANG as he_IL.UTF-8 got: keyboard:X11DRV_KEYBOARD_DetectLayout Your keyboard layout was not found! Exported LANG as he_IL.ISO-8859-8 and got the same error with an additional complaint: err:keyboard:X11DRV_ToUnicode Please report: no char for keysym 0CF7 (hebrew_qoph) : for all keys, not just "koph", reporting "koph" was pressed. BTW Tzafrir, my custom 2.6-test4 kernel didn't have misc support and when removing, I realized mono was dependent on it. It was originaly installed with 2.4.20 kernel so I didn't get any errors. This is what I see in the console. LANG=he_IL.UTF-8 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ wine notepad.exe Invoking /usr/bin/wine.bin notepad.exe ... When you are running with a native NT directory specify 'Profile=' or disable loading of Windows registry (LoadWindowsRegistryFiles=N) fixme:hook:SetWinEventHook (32779,32779,(nil),0x1001c51,8,0,0x)-stub! fixme:keyboard:X11DRV_KEYBOARD_DetectLayout Your keyboard layout was not found! Using closest match instead (United States keyboard layout (phantom key version)) for scancode mapping. Please define your layout in dlls/x11drv/keyboard.c and submit them to us for inclusion into future Wine releases. See the Wine User Guide, chapter "Keyboard" for more information. fixme:commdlg:ChooseFontA : unimplemented flag (ignored) fixme:keyboard:X11DRV_KEYBOARD_DetectLayout Your keyboard layout was not found! Using closest match instead (United States keyboard layout (phantom key version)) for scancode mapping. Please define your layout in dlls/x11drv/keyboard.c and submit them to us for inclusion into future Wine releases. See the Wine User Guide, chapter "Keyboard" for more information. fixme:commdlg:ChooseFontA : unimplemented flag (ignored) Wine exited with a successful status LANG=he_IL.ISO-8859-8 export LANG=he_IL.ISO-8859-8 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ wine notepad.exe Invoking /usr/bin/wine.bin notepad.exe ... When you are running with a native NT directory specify 'Profile=' or disable loading of Windows registry (LoadWindowsRegistryFiles=N) fixme:hook:SetWinEventHook (32779,32779,(nil),0x1001c51,8,0,0x)-stub! fixme:keyboard:X11DRV_KEYBOARD_DetectLayout Your keyboard layout was not found! Using closest match instead (United States keyboard layout (phantom key version)) for scancode mapping. Please define your layout in dlls/x11drv/keyboard.c and submit them to us for inclusion into future Wine releases. See the Wine User Guide, chapter "Keyboard" for more information. err:keyboard:X11DRV_ToUnicode Please report: no char for keysym 0CF7 (hebrew_qoph) : err:keyboard:X11DRV_ToUnicode (virtKey=C0,scanCode=29,keycode=1A,state=0) On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 20:14, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 08:55:18PM +0200, dittigas wrote: > > And, on Debian Unstable install seems to fail with: > > > > FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. > > update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. > > > > Manually running update-binfmts --enable gives: > > > > update-binfmts --enable > > FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. > > update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. > > Your kernel probably does not support binfmt-misc . > > binfmt-misc is support in the kernel for using basically any binary > (executable) format using an external intereter. Wine can thus be used > to execute directly win32 executables. > > If the error bothers you: > update-binfmts is part of a separate debian package (update-binfmts ?) > that includes some scripts to allow programs to register themselves as > hadlers for such executable formats. Remove this package (IIRC wine > recommends it, but does not depend on it) then this error should be > gone) > = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
dittigas wrote: On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 19:36, Shachar Shemesh wrote: dittigas wrote: And, on Debian Unstable install seems to fail with: FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. Manually running update-binfmts --enable gives: update-binfmts --enable FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. Which package are you using? See full output: What I meant was "Where did you get the package from". Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 08:55:18PM +0200, dittigas wrote: > And, on Debian Unstable install seems to fail with: > > FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. > update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. > > Manually running update-binfmts --enable gives: > > update-binfmts --enable > FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. > update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. Your kernel probably does not support binfmt-misc . binfmt-misc is support in the kernel for using basically any binary (executable) format using an external intereter. Wine can thus be used to execute directly win32 executables. If the error bothers you: update-binfmts is part of a separate debian package (update-binfmts ?) that includes some scripts to allow programs to register themselves as hadlers for such executable formats. Remove this package (IIRC wine recommends it, but does not depend on it) then this error should be gone) -- Tzafrir Cohen +---+ http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir/ |vim is a mutt's best friend| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +---+ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 19:36, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > dittigas wrote: > > >And, on Debian Unstable install seems to fail with: > > > >FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. > >update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. > > > >Manually running update-binfmts --enable gives: > > > >update-binfmts --enable > >FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. > >update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. > > > > > Which package are you using? > See full output: Preconfiguring packages ... Selecting previously deselected package libwine. (Reading database ... 73445 files and directories currently installed.) Unpacking libwine (from .../libwine_0.0.20030813-1_i386.deb) ... Selecting previously deselected package wine. Unpacking wine (from .../wine_0.0.20030813-1_i386.deb) ... Setting up libwine (0.0.20030813-1) ... Setting up wine (0.0.20030813-1) ... FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. > Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
dittigas wrote: And, on Debian Unstable install seems to fail with: FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. Manually running update-binfmts --enable gives: update-binfmts --enable FATAL: Module binfmt_misc not found. update-binfmts: warning: Couldn't load the binfmt_misc module. Which package are you using? Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
dittigas wrote: Does it need to be installed or run in any particular way in regards to LANG support for Hebrew encoding etc.? You need to set the encoding to something that supports Hebrew. LC_CTYPE=he_IL is fine. So is (with sufficiently late versions) en_US.UTF-8. Pay attention to case and hyphens, however. en_US.utf8, for example, will not work. Nor will en_US.utf-8. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
Does it need to be installed or run in any particular way in regards to LANG support for Hebrew encoding etc.? On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 16:19, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > Hi list, > > Lately, the BiDi engine in Wine has changed to be an external library, > that has to be statically linked during compilation. As a result, I have > just found out that the RH9 RPMs don't support BiDi out of the box. I'm > on that case, but I would like to know where we stand on other. > > I would like your help in testing the other platforms out. Please > download the wine prebuilt packages for your platform from > www.winehq.org, and try them out. Just run notepad and try typing a few > Hebrew characters. I would love to hear results regarding whether this > worked or not. > > One important note - I know that the Mandrake packager made special > effort to make sure BiDi works there. If it does not work for you, I > have an idea regarding what could have gone wrong. I ask, however, that > you say so to me rather than to him, to avoid unpleasentness. > > Thanks, > > Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Wine RPMs/Debs and BiDi support
Hi list, Lately, the BiDi engine in Wine has changed to be an external library, that has to be statically linked during compilation. As a result, I have just found out that the RH9 RPMs don't support BiDi out of the box. I'm on that case, but I would like to know where we stand on other. I would like your help in testing the other platforms out. Please download the wine prebuilt packages for your platform from www.winehq.org, and try them out. Just run notepad and try typing a few Hebrew characters. I would love to hear results regarding whether this worked or not. One important note - I know that the Mandrake packager made special effort to make sure BiDi works there. If it does not work for you, I have an idea regarding what could have gone wrong. I ask, however, that you say so to me rather than to him, to avoid unpleasentness. Thanks, Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian rsync problems
Shaul Karl wrote: On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 01:07:18PM +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote: I'm not sure whether there are any other official mirror sources. I wouldn't like to rsynch from a secondary mirror, as that may impose a latency into the mirror (i.e. - the Israeli mirror will alsways be 1 day behind). I believe the Israeli mirror is already one day behind, at least as far as testing is concerned, although this might be due to the problems the mirror is experiencing. It isn't. When the syncs go well, having "ftp.us.debian.org" after "mirror.hamakor.org.il" in your apt sources will cause the machine to pick the israeli mirror (i.e. - it is almost always as up to date as the us one). As for mirroring from another source, I believe that debian uses round Robin DNS for some servers, and there fore it is not as straight forward to pick up another mirror as it sounds. I found the proper page. mirror is listed as a secondary mirror. I just picked another primary mirror, and we'll wait and see how it goes. As for round robin - that is not the case. My true suggestion is to raise the problem on [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'll probably do that. That's actually the information I was really looking for. Does `no data goes through' is like a browser gets stalled when it tries to follow a link and display a page? Exactly. -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian rsync problems
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 01:07:18PM +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > I'm not sure whether there are any other official mirror sources. I > wouldn't like to rsynch from a secondary mirror, as that may impose a > latency into the mirror (i.e. - the Israeli mirror will alsways be 1 day > behind). > I believe the Israeli mirror is already one day behind, at least as far as testing is concerned, although this might be due to the problems the mirror is experiencing. As for mirroring from another source, I believe that debian uses round Robin DNS for some servers, and there fore it is not as straight forward to pick up another mirror as it sounds. But this is only partial information and I don't know if, and how, it is applicable for the case at hand. My true suggestion is to raise the problem on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Does `no data goes through' is like a browser gets stalled when it tries to follow a link and display a page? > > Oleg Kobets wrote: > > >Change the upstream server and see if the problem persists. > > > > > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "Shachar Shemesh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Linux-IL mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:50 AM > >Subject: Debian rsync problems > > > > > > > > > >>hi all, > >> > >>There is a wierd problem when trying to sync mirror.hamakor.org.il with > >>the debian mirror. It appears that the rsync connection works fine (i.e. > >>- connection is established), but every so often (very often) no data > >>goes through (rsync doesn't print anything). Is this an upstream mirror > >>problem? I tried moving the time the script runs around a little, but to > >>no avail. The same problem does not happen for debian-security and > >>debian-non-US (both synching from another server), nor, as far as I > >>could tell, with other mirrors (gentoo and mandrake are also synched by > >>the same server). > >> > >>Any ideas what could be causing this (aside from an upstream problem). > >> > >> Shachar > >> > >>-- > >>Shachar Shemesh > >>Open Source integration consultant > >>Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > >> > >> > >> > >>= > >>To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > >>the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > >>echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > Shachar Shemesh > Open Source integration consultant > Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Shaul Karl,shaulk @ actcom . net . il = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
i don't know if its not hackers-il material but: You said it, you can't. The thing is, you don't have too. its not an application that requires that much performance for disk drive reading. you load the file into memory once, then when the user click save it dumps it back to disk. for manipulation we use DOM. * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html > -Original Message- > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 2:28 PM > To: Tzahi Fadida > Cc: Rony Shapiro; Linux-Il (E-mail) > Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Tzahi Fadida wrote: > > > UML is garbage, too many diagrams, too many inconsistencies between them. checkout > > http://dori.technion.ac.il/opm/ > > One highly orthogonal and highly expressive diagram for everything, technion > > methodology. + Java > > case tool free to d/l for educational use or non-commercial use. currenly only > > works > with microsoft > > access database in windows, but there is a non publicly released version that use > > xml. > > What I don't understand is how it is possible to effectively replace MS > Access with XML. Databases offer O(1) or O(logN) search for records, > while XML is O(n). Unless, of course, the database is managed entirely > in memory, and dumped and restored from the disk everytime. > > Regards, > > Shlomi Fish > > > if anyone > > wants contact me. > > if you are doing agents methodology, this is for since it has more under thehood > > then any other > > methodology out there for agents. > > for life processes its the tool of choice. > > > > * - * - * > > Tzahi Fadida > > MSc Student > > Information System Engineering Area > > Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management > > Technion - Israel Institute of Technology > > Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 > > Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * > > > > WARNING TO SPAMMERS:see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > > > Rony Shapiro > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM > > > To: Linux-Il (E-mail) > > > Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management > > > system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. > > > > > > I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at > > > the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting > > > "meta-data" on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like "what files were > > > changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom?" and "what bugfixes made it into > > > release 3.4?". Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, > > > unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's > > > fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but > > > it's not a full configuration management tool. > > > > > > Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw > > > various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate > > > code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to > > > get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development > > > process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). > > > > > > Just my 0.02 NIS. > > > > > > Rony > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh > > > > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 > > > > To: Lior Kesos > > > > Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) > > > > Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > > > > > > > > > > Lior Kesos wrote: > > > > > > > > > Shany Pozin wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>>We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give > > > > >>>a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" > > > > >>>and are looking for and open source solution instead of > > > > >>>purchasingRational ClearCase. > > >> >>>I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. > > > > >>> > > > > >>>Josh Roden > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > > Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? > > > > > > > > I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is > > > > making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management > > > > suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking > > > > between the revision control and
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
lets talk now about the requirements design and implementation and maintenance. the first 2 are clearly not connected to a versioning system or "configuration management". its about good practices, using a good UML case tool? (or prefferably throwing the UML garbage, saving a lot of time and use OPM :) as for implementation, CVS is all for that. maintenance is just a big word for patching major versions. What's up with the OPM website? It doens't work with Mozilla 1.4 and the pdf file explaining what it actually is, is missing. Gad -- http://yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au/~gabraham = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Hi, > > > >I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at > >the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting > >"meta-data" on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like "what files were > >changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom?" > > > What about "cvs -qn up -r bugfix16"? > Exactly my point - you have to define a label "bugfix16", and adhere to that naming convention. What if someone creates a label "BugFix18"? The system does not enforce any policy - you need the discipline to adhere to naming conventions, and the luck to avoid typos... > >and "what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?". > > > That depends on your setup. If you kept a good log in the history, there > is no reason to not be able to answer that (and CVS can be configured to > require you to do so). Again, I agree that this is *possible* in CVS, but it depends on the goodwill, self-discipline, and luck of all the programmers involved. > > > Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). > > > Please explain. > Explicit knowledge of the development process makes it easier to handle the files/revisions associated with changes. For example, if I fixed some files so that they pass my unit tests, but didn't pass integration tests yet, the changes should be visible to another programmer, but not to the release builder, say. Again, I'm not saying that you can't do these kind of tricks with CVS, but a commercial configuration management tool makes this easier, and enforces the policy/process that you've defined. > > > I don't think it makes sense to try and compare CVS with Rational Rose. > It's like asking whether Mozilla is better than kreversi. > Violent agreement here. Rony = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [JOB] Sys Admin in Talpiot
Hi Yasha,
We need an Israeli citizen for this job for reasons that I do not intend
and am not required to elaborate in a public forum. Israeli citizens with
older ID cards have a nationality ("leum") indicated on their ID card. We
don't care what this nationality is. It can be "Russian", "Jewish",
"Muslim", "Druze", or anything else as far as we are concerned. Our past
hiring record proves that we have uphelp this policy.
Regards,
- yba
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, yasha wrote:
> dear jonathan ben avraham,
>
> just a question for clarification re: your job offer for a sys admin in talpiot:
>
> you state that Israeli citizenship is required, but then at the end you state that
> you invite applications from people regardless of nationality, etc...
>
> can you please clarify -- what is your actual position on nationality?
>
> i'm not going to apply for the job, but if others do, seems like it should be
> clearer.
>
> shalom,
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> > Greetings linux-il list,
> > Tk Open Systems Ltd. is looking for a system administrator for work in
> > Talpiot. The required qualifications are:
> >
> > 1. Residence in the greater Jerusalem area.
> >
> > 2. Track record of personal interest in Linux, open source, or bidi issues
> > as proven by membership in Linux-oriented organization, mailing list,
> > academic project or contribution to an open source project.
> >
> > 3. At least one year's experience managing Sendmail, Apache, Squid, xdm,
> > iptables, Linux or FreeBSD installations in a commercial or educational
> > organization.
> >
> > 4. Persons with experience in Debian will be given slightly more
> > consideration. Extra points also for Solaris and Oracle experience.
> >
> > 5. Some knowledge of PC hardware and a willingness to deal with hardware
> > glitches, move equipment around, etc.
> >
> > 6. Valid driver's license.
> >
> > 7. Good oral Hebrew. Some ability to read Hebrew. Some spoken English
> > required.
> >
> > 8. Ability to deal respectfully with nudgy customers.
> >
> > 9. No criminal record that would disqualify from recieving Israeli
> > government security clearance. Israeli citizenship required. Prior IDF
> > service not required.
> >
> > This is relatively junior level position.
> >
> > The position can be either part-time or fulltime, salaried or freelance,
> > depending upon the qualifications of the applicant.
> >
> > Please send CV's in non-proprietary format to me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or by
> > fax to 02-679-6453. CV's in MS Word format will be deleted without further
> > consideration. Unsolicited phone calls to Tk Open Systems or to me
> > personally in connection with this position will be considered a
> > disqualification.
> >
> > Tk Open Systems is an equal opportunity employer. We invite applications
> > from qualified applicants regardless of race, nationality, national
> > origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, political or religious
> > position or lack thereof.
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > - yba
> >
> > --
> > EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5 83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~ Tk Open
> Systems
> > =}ooO--U--Ooo{=
> > - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
> >
> >
> =
> > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
--
EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5 83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~ Tk Open Systems
=}ooO--U--Ooo{=
- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Rony Shapiro > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM > release 3.4?". Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, > unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's coding - Concurrent versioning system. hmm... yes it doesn know coding. unit test - does clearcase test your program or hardware part? lets talk about it. how do you really test a part, you take a revision and test it. cvs can do that no? integration - is clearcase some kind of ai with robots that takes softwares and integrate them? mind you, that this should have been done in the requirement and design stages though we know better how it works. again, just more coding. release - hmm... CVS - branching a major version. maintenance - commiting to the major version that was created. lets talk now about the requirements design and implementation and maintenance. the first 2 are clearly not connected to a versioning system or "configuration management". its about good practices, using a good UML case tool? (or prefferably throwing the UML garbage, saving a lot of time and use OPM :) as for implementation, CVS is all for that. maintenance is just a big word for patching major versions. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Dear original poster - While we're asking bigger picture questions - what do you need CASE for? this is not a rhetorical question. All of these tools take quite a bit of work to get them to help you. Unless you have a precisely defined need, you might get some pretty pictures, but are very unlikely to actually achieve any goals. If you have specific goals, specifying them expicitly will help the list help you. Daniel Tzahi Fadida <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > UML is garbage, too many diagrams, too many inconsistencies between them. checkout > http://dori.technion.ac.il/opm/ > One highly orthogonal and highly expressive diagram for everything, technion > methodology. + Java > case tool free to d/l for educational use or non-commercial use. currenly only works > with microsoft > access database in windows, but there is a non publicly released version that use > xml. if anyone > wants contact me. > if you are doing agents methodology, this is for since it has more under the hood > then any other > methodology out there for agents. > for life processes its the tool of choice. > > * - * - * > Tzahi Fadida > MSc Student > Information System Engineering Area > Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management > Technion - Israel Institute of Technology > Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 > Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * > > WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > > Rony Shapiro > > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM > > To: Linux-Il (E-mail) > > Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > > > > Folks, > > > > As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management > > system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. > > > > I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at > > the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting > > "meta-data" on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like "what files were > > changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom?" and "what bugfixes made it into > > release 3.4?". Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, > > unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's > > fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but > > it's not a full configuration management tool. > > > > Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw > > various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate > > code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to > > get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development > > process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). > > > > Just my 0.02 NIS. > > > > Rony > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh > > > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 > > > To: Lior Kesos > > > Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) > > > Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > > > > > > > Lior Kesos wrote: > > > > > > > Shany Pozin wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>>We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give > > > >>>a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" > > > >>>and are looking for and open source solution instead of > > > >>>purchasing Rational ClearCase. > > > >>>I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. > > > >>> > > > >>>Josh Roden > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? > > > > > > I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is > > > making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management > > > suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking > > > between the revision control and the bugs database. > > > On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one > > > company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a > > > general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become > > > slower, less intuative, and more difficult. > > > > > > As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, > > > where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - > > > the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find > > > it hard to call that serious. I will agree that the system is > > > commercial, though :-) > > > > > > > cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. > > > > http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . > > > > > > Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set > > > to go. > > > > > > Shachar > > > > > > -- > > > Shachar Shemesh > > > Open Source integration consultant > > > Home page & resume -
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > Rony Shapiro wrote: > > >Folks, > > > >As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management > >system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. > > > >I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at > >the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting > >"meta-data" on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like "what files were > >changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom?" > > > What about "cvs -qn up -r bugfix16"? > Subversion can do that, and so can many other alternatives (Aegis, Arch, etc.) > >and "what bugfixes made it into > >release 3.4?". > > > That depends on your setup. If you kept a good log in the history, there > is no reason to not be able to answer that (and CVS can be configured to > require you to do so). > > > Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, > >unit test, integration, release, maintenance). > > > Please explain. > This is a feature of a software configuration management system. CVS is a pure version control system that only tracks changes to file. Some systems (like Aegis) are more copmlex, and also enable reviewing the code, testing it, etc. These are called software conf management systems. > > Again, I *like* CVS, and it's > >fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but > >it's not a full configuration management tool. > > > > > >Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. > > > I don't think it makes sense to try and compare CVS with Rational Rose. > It's like asking whether Mozilla is better than kreversi. > The question of course is whether Josh wanted a CASE tool (like Rational Rose or ArgoUML) or an SCM/Version Control tool (like CVS, ClearCase, Subversion, Aegis, etc.). Since he said he wanted a CASE tool and was going to buy Rational ClearCase, it's hard to tell, but IMH guess he probably meant Rational Rose. Regards, Shlomi Fish > -- > Shachar Shemesh > Open Source integration consultant > Home page& resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Routing problem
On Tuesday 09 September 2003 14:07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi, > |172.17.2.30 Masquerade t this interface > Kernel IP routing table > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt > Iface > 172.30.0.0 172.16.0.10 255.255.0.0 UG 40 0 0 > eth1 > 172.16.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth1 > 172.17.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth0 > 0.0.0.0 172.17.1.10 0.0.0.0 UG 40 0 0 > eth0 > B --> C(172.30.0.1) : Fail > B --> D : Fail If I understand correctly 172.30.0.0/16 and 172.17.0.0/16 are on different physical networks, and A is supposed to link between them? The linux box probably forwards your packets from B to D, however, D has no idea how to get back to B, as 172.30.x.x is out of it's subnet, and unless some other routing rules are specified, it will just go to the default gateway, if there's one(which I assume is not A in our case). Here's what you can do: A) Make sure the 172.30.x.x network hosts route via A for 172.17.x.x network in some way. B) NAT(Masquerade) the interface, so traffic from 172.17.x.x to 172.30.x.x are mapped accordingly, see iptables documentation for more information. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Tzahi Fadida wrote: > UML is garbage, too many diagrams, too many inconsistencies between them. checkout > http://dori.technion.ac.il/opm/ > One highly orthogonal and highly expressive diagram for everything, technion > methodology. + Java > case tool free to d/l for educational use or non-commercial use. currenly only works > with microsoft > access database in windows, but there is a non publicly released version that use > xml. What I don't understand is how it is possible to effectively replace MS Access with XML. Databases offer O(1) or O(logN) search for records, while XML is O(n). Unless, of course, the database is managed entirely in memory, and dumped and restored from the disk everytime. Regards, Shlomi Fish > if anyone > wants contact me. > if you are doing agents methodology, this is for since it has more under thehood > then any other > methodology out there for agents. > for life processes its the tool of choice. > > * - * - * > Tzahi Fadida > MSc Student > Information System Engineering Area > Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management > Technion - Israel Institute of Technology > Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 > Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * > > WARNING TO SPAMMERS:see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > > Rony Shapiro > > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM > > To: Linux-Il (E-mail) > > Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > > > > Folks, > > > > As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management > > system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. > > > > I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at > > the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting > > "meta-data" on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like "what files were > > changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom?" and "what bugfixes made it into > > release 3.4?". Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, > > unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's > > fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but > > it's not a full configuration management tool. > > > > Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw > > various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate > > code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to > > get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development > > process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). > > > > Just my 0.02 NIS. > > > > Rony > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh > > > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 > > > To: Lior Kesos > > > Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) > > > Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > > > > > > > Lior Kesos wrote: > > > > > > > Shany Pozin wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>>We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give > > > >>>a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" > > > >>>and are looking for and open source solution instead of > > > >>>purchasingRational ClearCase. > >> >>>I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. > > > >>> > > > >>>Josh Roden > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? > > > > > > I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is > > > making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management > > > suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking > > > between the revision control and the bugs database. > > > On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one > > > company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a > > > general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become > > > slower, less intuative, and more difficult. > > > > > > As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, > > > where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - > > > the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find > > > it hard to call that serious. I will agree that thesystem is > > > commercial, though :-) > > > > > > > cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. > > > > http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . > > > > > > Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set > > > to go. > > > > > > Shachar > > > > > > -- > > > Shachar Shemesh > > > Open Source integration consultant > > > Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > Tounsubscri
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Rony Shapiro wrote: Folks, As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting "meta-data" on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like "what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom?" What about "cvs -qn up -r bugfix16"? and "what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?". That depends on your setup. If you kept a good log in the history, there is no reason to not be able to answer that (and CVS can be configured to require you to do so). Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Please explain. Again, I *like* CVS, and it's fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but it's not a full configuration management tool. Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. I don't think it makes sense to try and compare CVS with Rational Rose. It's like asking whether Mozilla is better than kreversi. -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
UML is garbage, too many diagrams, too many inconsistencies between them. checkout http://dori.technion.ac.il/opm/ One highly orthogonal and highly expressive diagram for everything, technion methodology. + Java case tool free to d/l for educational use or non-commercial use. currenly only works with microsoft access database in windows, but there is a non publicly released version that use xml. if anyone wants contact me. if you are doing agents methodology, this is for since it has more under the hood then any other methodology out there for agents. for life processes its the tool of choice. * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Rony Shapiro > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM > To: Linux-Il (E-mail) > Subject: RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > Folks, > > As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management > system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. > > I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at > the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting > "meta-data" on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like "what files were > changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom?" and "what bugfixes made it into > release 3.4?". Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, > unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's > fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but > it's not a full configuration management tool. > > Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw > various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate > code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to > get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development > process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). > > Just my 0.02 NIS. > > Rony > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh > > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 > > To: Lior Kesos > > Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) > > Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > > > > Lior Kesos wrote: > > > > > Shany Pozin wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >>>We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give > > >>>a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" > > >>>and are looking for and open source solution instead of > > >>>purchasing Rational ClearCase. > > >>>I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. > > >>> > > >>>Josh Roden > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? > > > > I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is > > making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management > > suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking > > between the revision control and the bugs database. > > On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one > > company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a > > general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become > > slower, less intuative, and more difficult. > > > > As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, > > where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - > > the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find > > it hard to call that serious. I will agree that the system is > > commercial, though :-) > > > > > cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. > > > http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . > > > > Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set > > to go. > > > > Shachar > > > > -- > > Shachar Shemesh > > Open Source integration consultant > > Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > > > > > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Yaacov Fenster - System Engineering Troubleshooting and other miracles wrote: Having/being a relatively heavy user of Clearcase I would disagree with you. Clearcase is a mature product. It's problem is that it has so many options and possibilities that it is trivial to shoot yourself in the foot. In order to set it up for usage by non-CC gurus, you have to put in quite a lot of thought. But I would agree that it most likely did cause things "generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult.". It takes up many more resources, and once one person did something wrong, the problems tend to compound as other users try to work around the initial problem. This is not a system to be taken lightly. As you indicated, CVS+bugzilla is usually a much better solution for small to medium size groups. Is a 300 developers shop considered "medium" or "large"? If the later, I'm afraid we just ran out of group sizes that CC IS good for. The original setup was CVS+ClearQuest. ClearQuest was very slow. CVS wasn't too fast either, and had serious locks problem (i.e. - people would constantly have locks on directories because they were commiting/tagging). The later problems affected mostly project managers (as the rest would only need a lock on a single directory, and thus were not too much bothered by the problem). In any case, an elaborate system (that was necessary anyways) was put in place to seperate the company's source code into almost independant modules, so that the problem was really affecting very few people. After the switch to clearcase+clearquest, several things became apparent: A. Integration didn't work. The theory that CC and CQ can integrate didn't stand up to real life. Things crawled to a standstill the moment that was turned on. B. ClearCase didn't respond well to being hosted on NetApp. Nobody knew exactly what the problems were, but strange problems would happen all the time (see - 500MB quota story). C. CC didn't scale. Each server could only run 1000 processes, and as each view requires a server process, there were constant requests from the admin team for people to delete views. D. While the locking problem indeed went away, the average time it took to checkout a new project, or to perform any other operation, had actually increased rather than decreased. E. No decent command line support. The beutiful diff tools are only available as GUI. No convinent "cvs diff -u". As we all know, the effeciveness of GUI has a certain cap. It was very annoying to bump against it. Now, I have not been there for quite some time. Maybe some or all of these problems got better as administrators got better aquented. Maybe the generation that knew how things have been on CVS is slowly leaving, so that people no longer know that they are having a bad system. Maybe they are still cursing under their lips every time they have to do a CC operation. I don't know. I do know that the migration took over a year, with the close help of Rational. I agree that many of these probelms probably won't affect people working in smaller groups. Then again, these people can probalby be as effective with CVS, since the added functionality CC gives there is less important. To me, this spells "you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't". Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Routing problem
Hi, -The two eth0 appear since the first one is for the network attached to the eth0 and the second one is for the default router. -I forgot to mention that station C could ping all the stations including the Linux router. -About the local looping, well it seems to work fine... Yehoram B.Y. -Original Message- From: yasha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu, September 11, 2003 17:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Routing problem dear yehoram, [idea in the form of a question]: why are there two eth0 listed in your routing tables when you only have on listed in your interfaces list? also did you try to ping from C -> *all* and from D -> *all* ? seems like maybe there's a conflict of ip sharing? did you also remember to test local looping of the NICs? ping 127.0.0.1 to see that each NIC responds properly to itself there... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Hi, > > I'm trying to use Linux as a small router but it is probably not my day :) > this is the configuration I have: > > +--+ > | O | > +--+ > |172.17.2.3 > | > | > |172.17.2.30 Masquerade t this interface > +--+ > | A - Linux | > +--+ > |172.16.0.1 > | > | > +--+172.16.0.2 | 172.16.0.10+--+172.30.0.1 172.30.0.10+--+ > | B |--| C |--| D | > +--+ 255.255.0.0 +--+255.255.0.0 +--+ > > interface I have: > eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:E0:72:A0:03:1F > inet addr:172.17.2.30 Bcast:172.17.255.255 Mask:255.255.0.0 > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:821 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:4 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 > RX bytes:75201 (73.4 kiB) TX bytes:1306 (1.2 kiB) > Base address:0x8500 > > eth1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:E0:72:A0:03:10 > inet addr:172.16.0.1 Bcast:0.0.0.0 Mask:255.255.0.0 > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:58 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 > RX bytes:9209 (8.9 kiB) TX bytes:0 (0.0 iB) > Base address:0x8400 > > loLink encap:Local Loopback > inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 > UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 > RX packets:283 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:283 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 > RX bytes:82004 (80.0 kiB) TX bytes:82004 (80.0 kiB) > > this is the perliminary routing table I had: > Kernel IP routing table > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt > Iface > 172.16.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth1 > 172.17.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth0 > 0.0.0.0 172.17.1.10 0.0.0.0 UG 40 0 0 > eth0 > > I add the next route: > route add -net 172.30.0.0 netmask 255.255.0.0 gw 172.16.0.10 > > so now I have the next routing table: > Kernel IP routing table > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt > Iface > 172.30.0.0 172.16.0.10 255.255.0.0 UG 40 0 0 > eth1 > 172.16.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth1 > 172.17.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth0 > 0.0.0.0 172.17.1.10 0.0.0.0 UG 40 0 0 > eth0 > > Connection test using ping: > A --> O : OK > A --> B : OK > A --> C : OK > A --> D : OK > - > B --> A : OK > B --> O : OK > B --> C(172.16.0.10) : OK > B --> C(172.30.0.1) : Fail > B --> D : Fail > > 1. The default router for B is A. > 2. All the stations except A are Win2K/Win9X > > Any idea what I should do so that B can get to D? > > Best Regards > > Yehoram Ben-Yaacov > Better On-line Solutions > > Voice: +972 (04) 9907561 > Fax: +972 (04) 9990334 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.boscom.com/ > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- free email addresses that kick ass @ http://my.schoolsucks.com = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Folks, As much as I like CVS, it is not a full-blown configuration management system, and a configuration management system is not a CASE tool. I don't want to start a Holy War, but CVS is great for tracking changes at the file and directory level, but it lacks built-in support for getting "meta-data" on the changes, i.e., to answer queries like "what files were changed for bugfix 17, when and by whom?" and "what bugfixes made it into release 3.4?". Also, it has no explicit idea of a development cycle (coding, unit test, integration, release, maintenance). Again, I *like* CVS, and it's fine for small industrial projects, or even large open source projects, but it's not a full configuration management tool. Rational Rose, OTOH, *is* a CASE tool. That is, it allows one to draw various UML diagrams, check their syntax, annotate the sematics, generate code, etc. etc. But for educational purposes, I think the important thing to get across is the importance of a formal notation, and a development process, and for this Xfig (or Visio) is Good Enough (tm). Just my 0.02 NIS. Rony > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shachar Shemesh > Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:07 > To: Lior Kesos > Cc: Josh Roden; Linux-Il (E-mail) > Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > Lior Kesos wrote: > > > Shany Pozin wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>>We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give > >>>a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" > >>>and are looking for and open source solution instead of > >>>purchasing Rational ClearCase. > >>>I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. > >>> > >>>Josh Roden > >>> > >>> > >>> > > Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? > > I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is > making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management > suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking > between the revision control and the bugs database. > On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one > company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a > general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become > slower, less intuative, and more difficult. > > As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, > where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - > the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find > it hard to call that serious. I will agree that the system is > commercial, though :-) > > > cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. > > http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . > > Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set > to go. > > Shachar > > -- > Shachar Shemesh > Open Source integration consultant > Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > > = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Josh Roden wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in " Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase . I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden I'm having the same problem at the moment - finding a decent UML/CASE tool that works on Linux, and is free (not the same). I'll share with you what I've dug up, and I suggest you try a few and see which one 'floats your boat': * Argouml - Free, Java based (aka sluggish) , limited in capabilities - only a few diagram types are supported. * Poseidon - there are a few versions (based on Argouml). I used version 1.6 Community Edition. I thought it was the best solution for me - it has more capabilities than Argo. It still a bit sluggish, and a little buggy (doesn't work well with big documents which contain dozens of classes). Oh, and you can't print in the CE version. * Dia - not a case tool but a diagram tool, which has some limited UML capabilites. Free, but pretty ugly (it matters!), and not "intelligent" - doesn't really know about classes and attributes, except from a graphical point of view. * Umbrello - haven't used it. QT based, find it at http://uml.sourceforge.net/index.php * TCM - Toolkit for Conceptual Modeling at http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~tcm/ . Haven't used it, so I can't comment. * Rational Rose - the mother of all CASE tools. There are evaluation versions that you can download (about 90 MB). I found it to be an overkill, and "too smart", but I'm not working on enterprise wide projects or anything like that. Like I mentioned before, I found Poseidon CE to offer the best combination of features, although it's not without its faults. I don't know what their prices are like for the higher end versions. Cheers, Gad -- http://yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au/~gabraham = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
read this, very enlightening "converting from clearcase to cvs" http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/info-cvs/2002-02/msg00552.html also, note that there is a cvs for win32 (i.g: win 2000) www.cvsnt.org works fairly well, but the linux version is better. for clients in windows you have wincvs that i can tell you that even INTEL uses and recommend. for linux you have many good client tools, checkout freshmeat.net A good open source diff/merge tool you can find at sourceforge.net - winmerge for windows. for linux there are "meld" in kde i believe, and kdiff3 http://kdiff3.sourceforge.net/ and kompare http://bruggie.dnsalias.org/kompare/ enjoy * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Josh Roden Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:44 AM To: Linux-Il (E-mail) Subject: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Routing problem
dear yehoram, [idea in the form of a question]: why are there two eth0 listed in your routing tables when you only have on listed in your interfaces list? also did you try to ping from C -> *all* and from D -> *all* ? seems like maybe there's a conflict of ip sharing? did you also remember to test local looping of the NICs? ping 127.0.0.1 to see that each NIC responds properly to itself there... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Hi, > > I'm trying to use Linux as a small router but it is probably not my day :) > this is the configuration I have: > > +--+ > | O | > +--+ > |172.17.2.3 > | > | > |172.17.2.30 Masquerade t this interface > +--+ > | A - Linux | > +--+ > |172.16.0.1 > | > | > +--+172.16.0.2 | 172.16.0.10+--+172.30.0.1 172.30.0.10+--+ > | B |--| C |--| D | > +--+ 255.255.0.0 +--+255.255.0.0 +--+ > > interface I have: > eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:E0:72:A0:03:1F > inet addr:172.17.2.30 Bcast:172.17.255.255 Mask:255.255.0.0 > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:821 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:4 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 > RX bytes:75201 (73.4 kiB) TX bytes:1306 (1.2 kiB) > Base address:0x8500 > > eth1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:E0:72:A0:03:10 > inet addr:172.16.0.1 Bcast:0.0.0.0 Mask:255.255.0.0 > UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 > RX packets:58 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 > RX bytes:9209 (8.9 kiB) TX bytes:0 (0.0 iB) > Base address:0x8400 > > loLink encap:Local Loopback > inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 > UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 > RX packets:283 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 > TX packets:283 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 > collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 > RX bytes:82004 (80.0 kiB) TX bytes:82004 (80.0 kiB) > > this is the perliminary routing table I had: > Kernel IP routing table > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt > Iface > 172.16.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth1 > 172.17.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth0 > 0.0.0.0 172.17.1.10 0.0.0.0 UG 40 0 0 > eth0 > > I add the next route: > route add -net 172.30.0.0 netmask 255.255.0.0 gw 172.16.0.10 > > so now I have the next routing table: > Kernel IP routing table > Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt > Iface > 172.30.0.0 172.16.0.10 255.255.0.0 UG 40 0 0 > eth1 > 172.16.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth1 > 172.17.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 > eth0 > 0.0.0.0 172.17.1.10 0.0.0.0 UG 40 0 0 > eth0 > > Connection test using ping: > A --> O : OK > A --> B : OK > A --> C : OK > A --> D : OK > - > B --> A : OK > B --> O : OK > B --> C(172.16.0.10) : OK > B --> C(172.30.0.1) : Fail > B --> D : Fail > > 1. The default router for B is A. > 2. All the stations except A are Win2K/Win9X > > Any idea what I should do so that B can get to D? > > Best Regards > > Yehoram Ben-Yaacov > Better On-line Solutions > > Voice: +972 (04) 9907561 > Fax: +972 (04) 9990334 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.boscom.com/ > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- free email addresses that kick ass @ http://my.schoolsucks.com = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Shachar Shemesh wrote: Lior Kesos wrote: Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking between the revision control and the bugs database. On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult. Having/being a relatively heavy user of Clearcase I would disagree with you. Clearcase is a mature product. It's problem is that it has so many options and possibilities that it is trivial to shoot yourself in the foot. In order to set it up for usage by non-CC gurus, you have to put in quite a lot of thought. But I would agree that it most likely did cause things "generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult.". It takes up many more resources, and once one person did something wrong, the problems tend to compound as other users try to work around the initial problem. This is not a system to be taken lightly. As you indicated, CVS+bugzilla is usually a much better solution for small to medium size groups. As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find it hard to call that serious. I will agree that the system is commercial, though :-) cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set to go. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . ClearCase is indeed a version-control system. I believe he meant Rational Rose. Anyhow, about ArgoUML which was mentioned earlier -- I used it for a while (more precisely *tried* to use it for a while), and was not very impressed. It has matured a bit since the time I tried it, but it still is quite sluggish and is still not as stable as needed should be with serious documents. This list is probably not the best place to mention this, but if you have MS developer tools licenses you might have the very simple MS Visual Modeler which I guess can be used for teaching. Also -- perhaps Dia has UML designing capabilities? might be worth to check that. Alon. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Routing problem
Hi, I'm trying to use Linux as a small router but it is probably not my day :) this is the configuration I have: +--+ | O | +--+ |172.17.2.3 | | |172.17.2.30 Masquerade t this interface +--+ | A - Linux | +--+ |172.16.0.1 | | +--+172.16.0.2 | 172.16.0.10+--+172.30.0.1 172.30.0.10+--+ | B |--| C |--| D | +--+ 255.255.0.0 +--+255.255.0.0 +--+ interface I have: eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:E0:72:A0:03:1F inet addr:172.17.2.30 Bcast:172.17.255.255 Mask:255.255.0.0 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:821 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:4 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 RX bytes:75201 (73.4 kiB) TX bytes:1306 (1.2 kiB) Base address:0x8500 eth1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:E0:72:A0:03:10 inet addr:172.16.0.1 Bcast:0.0.0.0 Mask:255.255.0.0 UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:58 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 RX bytes:9209 (8.9 kiB) TX bytes:0 (0.0 iB) Base address:0x8400 loLink encap:Local Loopback inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 RX packets:283 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:283 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 RX bytes:82004 (80.0 kiB) TX bytes:82004 (80.0 kiB) this is the perliminary routing table I had: Kernel IP routing table Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt Iface 172.16.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 eth1 172.17.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 eth0 0.0.0.0 172.17.1.10 0.0.0.0 UG 40 0 0 eth0 I add the next route: route add -net 172.30.0.0 netmask 255.255.0.0 gw 172.16.0.10 so now I have the next routing table: Kernel IP routing table Destination Gateway Genmask Flags MSS Window irtt Iface 172.30.0.0 172.16.0.10 255.255.0.0 UG 40 0 0 eth1 172.16.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 eth1 172.17.0.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.0.0 U40 0 0 eth0 0.0.0.0 172.17.1.10 0.0.0.0 UG 40 0 0 eth0 Connection test using ping: A --> O : OK A --> B : OK A --> C : OK A --> D : OK - B --> A : OK B --> O : OK B --> C(172.16.0.10) : OK B --> C(172.30.0.1) : Fail B --> D : Fail 1. The default router for B is A. 2. All the stations except A are Win2K/Win9X Any idea what I should do so that B can get to D? Best Regards Yehoram Ben-Yaacov Better On-line Solutions Voice: +972 (04) 9907561 Fax: +972 (04) 9990334 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.boscom.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Lior Kesos wrote: Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? I think that sentance is probably wrong on each and every claim it is making. ClearCase (or, more precisely, the rational product management suite) is much more than CVS. For example, it allows hard linking between the revision control and the bugs database. On the other hand, it is also not mature. I have seen at least one company where there was a migration from CVS to CC, and the result was a general uproar. The migration caused things, generally, to become slower, less intuative, and more difficult. As for serious - well, when someone had a problem of exeeding quota, where the system claimed that he takes 500MB in modified sources (i.e. - the system more or less claimed that he typed 500MB of sources), I find it hard to call that serious. I will agree that the system is commercial, though :-) cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . Add to that bugzilla for change management, and your'e pretty much set to go. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Josh Roden wrote: > We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give > a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" > and are looking for and open source solution instead of > purchasingRational ClearCase. Are you sure you mean ClearCase? ClearCase is a Version Control System or Software Configuration Management system. That's something different entirely to CASE. The Rational CASE product is called Rational Rose. Regards, Shlomi Fish > I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. > > JoshRoden > > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
Shany Pozin wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden Isn't clearcase simply a realy serious,mature and commercial CVS? cvs is preinstalled or available in practically any linux distro. http://www.cvshome.org/ for detailed information . -- Lior Kesos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content Development Team Leader == "Everything should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler" -- Albert Einstein
RE: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
word of caution! i have evaluated the thing last semester for the technion. aside from the many drawbacks i can specify one that is mucho annoying: you can do association class! forget it, it doesn't worth the hassle. note: poseidon is an extension of argouml. here is my short eval in hebrew: שימוש בכלי CASE חופשי POSEIDON: נגד: נתחיל בכך שהתוכנה לא יציבה כאשר יש ריבוי מחלקות (לפחות 25) ולמעשה מחקה לי את הקובץ שעבדתי עליו! והגעתי למסקנה שזה בלתי אפשרי לישם את התרגיל בתוכנה זו. היא לא תומכת בASSOCIATION CLASS בגרסה זו. (באופן מוצהר באתר החברה) אין תמיכה ב UNIDIRECTIONAL ASSOCIATION. אין אייקונים לסטריאוטיפים שונים. מאוד איטית לאחר 10 עד 15 מחלקות, נבדק על פנטיום 3 500 385 מגה זיכרון. אין נעילת בחירה בבחירת עצמי UML ולכן יש צורך בכל פעם לבחור מחדש. אין פרמוט אוטומטי (AUTOLAYOUT) דבר שמאוד מקשה במיוחד כאשר כל פעולה היא איטית. בעד: אם כל מה שנדרש מהתוכנה הוא מספר קטן של מחלקות (עד 10 – 15) אזי זוהי תוכנה שניתן לעבוד אתה. בנויה בJAVA ועל כן יכולה לעבוד על מספר פלטפורמות. * - * - * Tzahi Fadida MSc Student Information System Engineering Area Faculty of Industrial Engineering & Management Technion - Israel Institute of Technology Technion City, Haifa, Israel 32000 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Shany Pozin > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:44 AM > To: Josh Roden > Cc: Linux-Il (E-mail) > Subject: Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) > > > > --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28 > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > You can try Argo UML > http://argouml.tigris.org/ > > shany > > On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 12:43, Josh Roden wrote: > > > We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give > > a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" > > and are looking for and open source solution instead of > > purchasing Rational ClearCase. > > I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. > > > > Josh Roden > > > > --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > > > You can try Argo UML > http://argouml.tigris.org/";>http://argouml.tigris.org/ > > shany > > On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 12:43, Josh Roden wrote: > > We (Hadassah College - Computer > Science) want > to give > a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" > and are looking for and open source solution instead of > purchasing Rational > ClearCase COLOR="#737373" SIZE="2">. > I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. > > Josh Roden > > > > > > --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28-- > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian rsync problems
I'm not sure whether there are any other official mirror sources. I wouldn't like to rsynch from a secondary mirror, as that may impose a latency into the mirror (i.e. - the Israeli mirror will alsways be 1 day behind). Shachar Oleg Kobets wrote: Change the upstream server and see if the problem persists. - Original Message - From: "Shachar Shemesh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Linux-IL mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:50 AM Subject: Debian rsync problems hi all, There is a wierd problem when trying to sync mirror.hamakor.org.il with the debian mirror. It appears that the rsync connection works fine (i.e. - connection is established), but every so often (very often) no data goes through (rsync doesn't print anything). Is this an upstream mirror problem? I tried moving the time the script runs around a little, but to no avail. The same problem does not happen for debian-security and debian-non-US (both synching from another server), nor, as far as I could tell, with other mirrors (gentoo and mandrake are also synched by the same server). Any ideas what could be causing this (aside from an upstream problem). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian rsync problems
Change the upstream server and see if the problem persists. - Original Message - From: "Shachar Shemesh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Linux-IL mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:50 AM Subject: Debian rsync problems > hi all, > > There is a wierd problem when trying to sync mirror.hamakor.org.il with > the debian mirror. It appears that the rsync connection works fine (i.e. > - connection is established), but every so often (very often) no data > goes through (rsync doesn't print anything). Is this an upstream mirror > problem? I tried moving the time the script runs around a little, but to > no avail. The same problem does not happen for debian-security and > debian-non-US (both synching from another server), nor, as far as I > could tell, with other mirrors (gentoo and mandrake are also synched by > the same server). > > Any ideas what could be causing this (aside from an upstream problem). > > Shachar > > -- > Shachar Shemesh > Open Source integration consultant > Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ > > > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian rsync problems
hi all, There is a wierd problem when trying to sync mirror.hamakor.org.il with the debian mirror. It appears that the rsync connection works fine (i.e. - connection is established), but every so often (very often) no data goes through (rsync doesn't print anything). Is this an upstream mirror problem? I tried moving the time the script runs around a little, but to no avail. The same problem does not happen for debian-security and debian-non-US (both synching from another server), nor, as far as I could tell, with other mirrors (gentoo and mandrake are also synched by the same server). Any ideas what could be causing this (aside from an upstream problem). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
--=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can try Argo UML http://argouml.tigris.org/ shany On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 12:43, Josh Roden wrote: > We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give > a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" > and are looking for and open source solution instead of > purchasing Rational ClearCase. > I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. > > Josh Roden > --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can try Argo UML http://argouml.tigris.org/";>http://argouml.tigris.org/ shany On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 12:43, Josh Roden wrote: We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden --=-IykfNAEeXDu5q5C3RV28-- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)
We (Hadassah College - Computer Science) want to give a course in "Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE)" and are looking for and open source solution instead of purchasing Rational ClearCase. I would appreciate anybody's suggestions. Josh Roden
Re: New Mailing List for Translation of Technical Documents
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Tue, Sep 09, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "Re: New Mailing List for Translation > of Technical Documents": > > > > > Are you aware of the existing translation mailing list? > > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > One I suppose. But I still don't know how to subscribe to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (my previous translation request was answered > > from math.technion.ac.il) > > See subscription instructions on http://ivrix.org.il/mailing-lists/. > Basically, you need to send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a message > body saying "subscribe translation". > > Don't worry if you get replies from math.technion.ac.il - this is the > computer currently hosting the mailing list (the Ivrix.org.il web server > is on a different machine). > OK, thanks. Can I add this mailing list to the IGLU list of mailing lists? http://www.iglu.org.il/mailing-lists/ Regards, Shlomi Fish > -- > Nadav Har'El |Tuesday, Sep 9 2003, 12 Elul 5763 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Why do programmers mix up Christmas and > http://nadav.harel.org.il|Halloween? Because DEC 25 = OCT 31 > > = > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Writing a BitKeeper replacement is probably easier at this point than getting its license changed. Matt Mackall on OFTC.net #offtopic. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Mailing List for Translation of Technical Documents
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "Re: New Mailing List for Translation of Technical Documents": > > > > Are you aware of the existing translation mailing list? > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > One I suppose. But I still don't know how to subscribe to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (my previous translation request was answered > from math.technion.ac.il) See subscription instructions on http://ivrix.org.il/mailing-lists/. Basically, you need to send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a message body saying "subscribe translation". Don't worry if you get replies from math.technion.ac.il - this is the computer currently hosting the mailing list (the Ivrix.org.il web server is on a different machine). -- Nadav Har'El|Tuesday, Sep 9 2003, 12 Elul 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Why do programmers mix up Christmas and http://nadav.harel.org.il |Halloween? Because DEC 25 = OCT 31 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Changing encoding on KOrganizer?
On Tuesday 09 September 2003 00:59, you wrote: > korganizer sux... > * save a todo list in hebrew. > * change locale and run korganizer again. the text will be unreadable. OK then, Can you sujest anothe KDE based Organizer? i would like to be able to sync it to my Palm. Thanks, Amichai. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [JOB] Sys Admin in Talpiot
dear jonathan ben avraham,
just a question for clarification re: your job offer for a sys admin in talpiot:
you state that Israeli citizenship is required, but then at the end you state that
you invite applications from people regardless of nationality, etc...
can you please clarify -- what is your actual position on nationality?
i'm not going to apply for the job, but if others do, seems like it should be
clearer.
shalom,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Greetings linux-il list,
> Tk Open Systems Ltd. is looking for a system administrator for work in
> Talpiot. The required qualifications are:
>
> 1. Residence in the greater Jerusalem area.
>
> 2. Track record of personal interest in Linux, open source, or bidi issues
> as proven by membership in Linux-oriented organization, mailing list,
> academic project or contribution to an open source project.
>
> 3. At least one year's experience managing Sendmail, Apache, Squid, xdm,
> iptables, Linux or FreeBSD installations in a commercial or educational
> organization.
>
> 4. Persons with experience in Debian will be given slightly more
> consideration. Extra points also for Solaris and Oracle experience.
>
> 5. Some knowledge of PC hardware and a willingness to deal with hardware
> glitches, move equipment around, etc.
>
> 6. Valid driver's license.
>
> 7. Good oral Hebrew. Some ability to read Hebrew. Some spoken English
> required.
>
> 8. Ability to deal respectfully with nudgy customers.
>
> 9. No criminal record that would disqualify from recieving Israeli
> government security clearance. Israeli citizenship required. Prior IDF
> service not required.
>
> This is relatively junior level position.
>
> The position can be either part-time or fulltime, salaried or freelance,
> depending upon the qualifications of the applicant.
>
> Please send CV's in non-proprietary format to me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or by
> fax to 02-679-6453. CV's in MS Word format will be deleted without further
> consideration. Unsolicited phone calls to Tk Open Systems or to me
> personally in connection with this position will be considered a
> disqualification.
>
> Tk Open Systems is an equal opportunity employer. We invite applications
> from qualified applicants regardless of race, nationality, national
> origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, political or religious
> position or lack thereof.
> Best Regards,
>
> - yba
>
> --
> EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5 83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA~. .~ Tk Open
Systems
> =}ooO--U--Ooo{=
> - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
>
>
=
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> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
free email addresses that kick ass @ http://my.schoolsucks.com
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