Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
begin Bill Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:51:39 -0800) On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 05:16:29AM -0500, Matthew Carpenter wrote: unless of course you meant to type rm -rf *.bak and accidently typed rm -rf * (and hit return prematurely) DOH! slaps himself in the face for past mistakes Experience is the best teacher :-). Only for those willing to learn :) _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
Yeah, sure. So I can have users losing entire directories. I will never forget the time I was called frantically to restore accounting information to someone's server because it was missing. It being on NetWare I attempted a Salvage, but couldn't find anything to salvage. Well Chief, to make a long story short, someone had dragged the directory into one of the surrounding subdirectories. While Konqueror would have asked Move, Copy, Link, Exploder didn't think to and simply moved it. DOH! begin Mike Andrew [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:00:20 +1130) On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:21, Bill Campbell wrote: I learned a long time ago (1) to always ``cd'' to a directory before doing an ``rm *'' in that directory instead of ``rm dir/*'' since a space after the slash does nasty things, and (2) to think really hard before using the ``*'' to make sure I've typed it correctly. This is where a gui widget helps. A delete widget (button or icon) is context sensitive, it might operate on some highighted info, or many other criteria. The only thing context sensitive about the cli method is the current path (dot)(slash) A gui widget learns from it's mistakes. Ie it is automated better by each iteration of the code underlying it. It might do self checks, it might 'understand' what can / can't be deleted, it might be full bloat and actually do hidden backups. Point being, it can be automated with intelligence. The same intelligence you have to 'learn', it can too. The difference is the gui widget is an accumulator of knowledge. It doesnt forget, or make typos, or unlearn. You can create this fundamental, identically, using cli script. Ie overwriting the basic rm command with an alias to a written script of your own which would exhibit the same strengths as a gui-widget (because basically all scripts are widgets). Where the gui method differs is that all possible options (can be) presented in your face so to speak, with radio buttons or check boxes. There's nothing different about using 'no operator intelligence required' gui button and an equally 'no intelligence required' script. Both are implemented with the same goal in mind. But give me a gui anyday to remove the typos, and remind me, of all possible options that I can't remember, or much much worse, how to present them, on the command line. Secondly, a gui widget is a token. A picture of a crimson pink elephant means something. awk, grep, Grep, grEp, GRep, and grePpp mean nothing and are impossible to remember (the classic cp -r ... and chown -R .) Using a mouse (gui), or, using the up-arrow (cli), has the same degree of laziness, except mice can't type miStakeZ. The idea of 'you can type the command quicker and easier', frankly, fills me with horror. Been there dun that, and recovered. SOME installations ban all use of the cli for this reason. (VisaCard servers eg). *nix makes much of the security aspect linux won't let you.. This is fuddelbunk when it comes to individual users. Linux very weak in protecting a user from himself. The idea that a scientist deleting his 2,000 page thesis by accident is 'too stupid to use a computer' doesn't wash well. Up arrows create havoc each day every day. One final thing to say about gui widgets is there is a disconnect between the command option and the literal. With cli, once you determine that --elephants means ignore timeouts, that's it. In most cases, 'elephants' is position sensitive as well. You can't change the name, nor it's position relative to other commands (without serious wurries). Filenames are particularly notorious, eg copy this = that, or is it copy that-this ? With a gui, the visual front end can be radio-button-elephants and next version radio-button:giraffes if that has more contextual sense, and options have no position sensitivy. A text box saying input file name is pretty clear. This means that revision of a gui widget doesn't automatically break the underlying code, nor, does it inhibit revision. The dangers inherent in changing how a cli verb operates has indeed prevented many of them from being revised and is the reason why we cannot have a uniform set of -a, -b -c switches. They can't even agree on --help, /h -h, --H, -i, --I, -v or -vV. The F1 key is agreed on. -- http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. -- Matthew Carpenter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.e-i-s.cc/ Enterprise Information Systems *Network Consulting, Integration Support *Web Development and E-Business
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
[ snips ] On Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:00:20 +1130 Mike Andrew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:21, Bill Campbell wrote: I learned a long time ago (1) to always ``cd'' to a directory before doing an ``rm *'' in that directory instead of ``rm dir/*'' since a space after the slash does nasty things, and (2) to think really hard before using the ``*'' to make sure I've typed it correctly. This is where a gui widget helps. A delete widget (button or icon) is context sensitive, it might operate on some highighted info, or many other criteria. The only thing context sensitive about the cli method is the current path (dot)(slash) A gui widget learns from it's mistakes. Ie it is automated better by each iteration of the code underlying it. It might do self checks, it might 'understand' what can / can't be deleted, it might be full bloat and actually do hidden backups. Point being, it can be automated with intelligence. As with so many things in life, I find myself between the extremes in this discussion. I certainly wouldn't want to try cli browsing and/or email manipulations (there are advocates even for this), but I've never gotten to like the concept of drag and drop overly much, even on Windoze. For the great army of potential linux users out there (the unwashed, so to speak), however, a standard offering of gui elements to make them comfortable in the wilderness of new unix facilities (which they may never want to comprehend) is esential. -- Collins Richey - Denver Area WWTLRD? - ELX rc1 with xfce and sylpheed ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:21, Bill Campbell wrote: I learned a long time ago (1) to always ``cd'' to a directory before doing an ``rm *'' in that directory instead of ``rm dir/*'' since a space after the slash does nasty things, and (2) to think really hard before using the ``*'' to make sure I've typed it correctly. This is where a gui widget helps. A delete widget (button or icon) is context sensitive, it might operate on some highighted info, or many other criteria. The only thing context sensitive about the cli method is the current path (dot)(slash) A gui widget learns from it's mistakes. Ie it is automated better by each iteration of the code underlying it. It might do self checks, it might 'understand' what can / can't be deleted, it might be full bloat and actually do hidden backups. Point being, it can be automated with intelligence. The same intelligence you have to 'learn', it can too. The difference is the gui widget is an accumulator of knowledge. It doesnt forget, or make typos, or unlearn. You can create this fundamental, identically, using cli script. Ie overwriting the basic rm command with an alias to a written script of your own which would exhibit the same strengths as a gui-widget (because basically all scripts are widgets). Where the gui method differs is that all possible options (can be) presented in your face so to speak, with radio buttons or check boxes. There's nothing different about using 'no operator intelligence required' gui button and an equally 'no intelligence required' script. Both are implemented with the same goal in mind. But give me a gui anyday to remove the typos, and remind me, of all possible options that I can't remember, or much much worse, how to present them, on the command line. Secondly, a gui widget is a token. A picture of a crimson pink elephant means something. awk, grep, Grep, grEp, GRep, and grePpp mean nothing and are impossible to remember (the classic cp -r ... and chown -R .) Using a mouse (gui), or, using the up-arrow (cli), has the same degree of laziness, except mice can't type miStakeZ. The idea of 'you can type the command quicker and easier', frankly, fills me with horror. Been there dun that, and recovered. SOME installations ban all use of the cli for this reason. (VisaCard servers eg). *nix makes much of the security aspect linux won't let you.. This is fuddelbunk when it comes to individual users. Linux very weak in protecting a user from himself. The idea that a scientist deleting his 2,000 page thesis by accident is 'too stupid to use a computer' doesn't wash well. Up arrows create havoc each day every day. One final thing to say about gui widgets is there is a disconnect between the command option and the literal. With cli, once you determine that --elephants means ignore timeouts, that's it. In most cases, 'elephants' is position sensitive as well. You can't change the name, nor it's position relative to other commands (without serious wurries). Filenames are particularly notorious, eg copy this = that, or is it copy that-this ? With a gui, the visual front end can be radio-button-elephants and next version radio-button:giraffes if that has more contextual sense, and options have no position sensitivy. A text box saying input file name is pretty clear. This means that revision of a gui widget doesn't automatically break the underlying code, nor, does it inhibit revision. The dangers inherent in changing how a cli verb operates has indeed prevented many of them from being revised and is the reason why we cannot have a uniform set of -a, -b -c switches. They can't even agree on --help, /h -h, --H, -i, --I, -v or -vV. The F1 key is agreed on. -- http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 20:43, Joshua Lee wrote: The S-100 bus existed as a standard bus on many CP/M boxes long before the Apple II, though Apple is to be commended for it's open specs for The reference was in context to the Apple, and the demise of Mrola, which is directly related. The S100 (or separately, the Apple bus) were 'copied' into the IBM pc. It is only ironic that the good idea wasn't enough. Volumes are what counted. Intel beat the Motorollas only through brute force, The brute force equated to volumes and price. _because_ Apples were and are excessively expensive, they weren't high volumes (relative to cheaply made, unlicensed pc klones). The sheer volume of Intel cpu's was the brute force. It was nothing that Intel did or didn't do to make that happen. Intel eventually having more megahertz. Motorolla always had less clock cycles per instruction and a lot more elegance This is not the case at the point of disconnect. The 68040 was a gruntier, crunchier chip than the (early versions) of the 486. Intel did not 'win' based on more megahertz, Motorola did not 'lose' despite having a more elegant (read uniformly linear) cpu. Motorola had no place (other than Apple) to push it's cart in desktops (Amiga was a closed box). Where Mrola continues to win is any embedded engine based on it's CPU32 core. They compete head to head with Intel in volumes because it is single application-specific. (eg Palm pilots). Afaik, MC68HC11's, 05's , 680332 are dominant and Intel is an also ran. Well, there were other factors, such as IBM choosing the 8088 for it's PC. ;-) which brings me back full circle. History will never know if a very big player backing the 8086 caused it to win. What caused the 680x0 to lose is Apple's unambiguous greed, simple as that. The 8080 and Z-80 were horrible, a total lack of useful addressing modes, specialized registers in context to your paragraph, I don't think you were slagging the Z80. It was the most advanced cpu peripheral family of it's day and your arguments for the 6502, while valid, are a risk/cisc argument, hotly debated in 1975 citing both as 'exhibit one'. The Z80 pinched many mainframe concepts (mostly from Xerox Sigma 6 Univac 1100's), including vectored interrupts. A lack which continues to plague us with the irq limit on x86. Most commentators of the time remarked on the ultimate demise of Charlie Chaplin because they backed the wrong horse (snigger snigger): an 8086 which was designed by the flotsam of Intel that remained after Exxon bought out the original design team. Anyway, nice to sse you know what you're talking about cheesy grin -- http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:48:22PM -0500, Matthew Carpenter wrote: customized menu rather annoying. One thing nice I've found about SuSE, BTW, is that it includes FreeSWAN VPN solution in the box. Caldera, RH, and I believe Mdk can't say that. SuSE Pro seems to have the most packages of any distribution, it's famous for that. I couldn't find FreeSWAN on my system though, and I'm running 7.3, the latest. Where does it live at? ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 04:24:49PM -0500, Stew Benedict wrote: customized menu rather annoying. One thing nice I've found about SuSE, BTW, is that it includes FreeSWAN VPN solution in the box. Caldera, RH, Free/SWAN patches are in the Mandrake kernel, as well as the user space applications. This is a kernel patch? Now I know why I can't find it. ;-) I'm running the 2.4.16 update kernel, I assume it includes it too? Pardon me if I seem a little bit dumb at this point, I don't know much about VPN other than it's a solution for telecommuters? ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 12:17:38AM +1130, Mike Andrew wrote: then maybe there are some users we just don't need to attract. /sunday evening rant too bloody right. I've never been attracted to *nix. I use it because Bill Gates and Steve Jobs gave me no choice. Linux has some way to go before I 'like' it. A decent gui is one. The command line of *nix isn't just any ordinary command line, you can do a lot of tricks with it that no other OS can. If you use it only like an ordinary command line, like DOS or CP/M, then you're missing half it's strength. greedily, unnecessarily, expensive. It was the Apple ][ that introduced the bus concept, *the* item from above that made all the difference for the Oem. The S-100 bus existed as a standard bus on many CP/M boxes long before the Apple II, though Apple is to be commended for it's open specs for all of their hardware with the Apple II. (I recall with fondness reading the commented 6502 assembler that Apple provided in it's technical reference manuals.) Motorola fuelled to the 68040, a far better cpu in all respects than it's 80486 counterpart (not my say so, industry definition), Apple would not Intel beat the Motorollas only through brute force, eventually simply having more megahertz. Motorolla always had less clock cycles per instruction and a lot more elegance (Though to be fair the original 8080 wasn't intended to be a CPU, and we've been stuck with it's design flaws ever since.) reduce the price sufficiently to get the cpu chip-volume up, Motorola, sensibly, gave the public what it deserved. Intel. Well, there were other factors, such as IBM choosing the 8088 for it's PC. ;-) This decision was driven by the fact that the 8080 derived Z-80 at the time had the business market in CP/M boxes. (The 8080 and Z-80 were horrible, a total lack of useful addressing modes, specialized registers that made more sense for embedded controller applications than for a CPU, lots of instruction cycles for many instructions (which Intel didn't fix until the 80286, making efficient assembly programming a difficult art) etc. The 6502 of the Apple, a one-accumulator inexpensive cousin of the Motorolla 6800, was actually a better chip than the 8088 for everything but certain math intensive operations, or later on memory intensive applications once they started shipping lots of RAM with PC clones.) ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
I'd like to post this not as a flame, but as a way of adding additional information and clearing up some misconceptions. Mandrake is a good distro, it has some strengths such as GUI-driven configuration that SuSE has not completely caught up with, but I thought I'd correct some of the information (not misinformation, I assume he simply doesn't know much about SuSE as he's not running it, or a recent version of it.) in this post. On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 04:40:41PM -0700, Tyler Regas wrote: Ah, but that's where Mandrake has succeeded where others, especially Red Hat have not. Mandrake just inked a deal with HP to provide two versions of 8.1 (I think) for the vast majority of *desktop* systems HP sells. Mandrake I'm happy about that, since I run an HP, but it's only an option for the business models. The home models that are sold in computer stores and elsewhere they aren't putting it on. Though at least HP isn't only putting it on servers like the rest. :-) being on the bleeding edge has put them into the position where they could accept this contract. Their system is the most complete, GUI-based Linux distro there is. Literally no feature must be edited from a text editor. No SuSE's a little bit bleeding edge, the kernel is 2.4.10, the latest kernel of any off the shelf distro (updatable at least to 2.4.16, if not more if you go to mantel's directory on the ftp sites.) but not too bleeding edge for production work. They're all there, its just that Mandrake has practically eliminated the need for the CLI tools. And don't think that this is _not_ what people It's not what *I* want, though it'd be nice at times to have them when knowledge is lacking and it's not in a situation where it would stomp on an existing custom-configured text file. Last, and certainly not least, is Linux. Even Red Hat, the self-appointed champion of the Open Source and Linux movements, has been unable to achieve the ease of use and GUI integration of Mandrake. There are few distros that Red Hat is not meant for the desktop, it's CEO and one of it's founders have both made statements to that effect. Once that's been considered the lack of GUI-driven tools versus having stable and more conservative versions of software becomes important; availability of servers, not the desktop, is their goal. What should be compared is Mandrake versus SuSE, as SuSE hasn't abandoned the desktop market completely, though it is closely involved with a partnership with IBM. (That will hopefully cure it's occasional financial worries.) come close to matching what Mandrake has been able to offer the desktop user. Combine Mandrake's Control Center, Mandrake Update (skip the kernel upgrade unless you've retained the stock kernel in your install, though), and Ximian's Red Carpet and you have a powerful GUI-based technology currency system in place. This is where Mandrake surely can shine, once they get the bugs out of the system. SuSE's Yast2 Online Updates system is pretty simple too though. Actually, the best currancy system would be something similar to Debian apt-get or BSD's port systems. Connectiva with it's apt for RPM system, and some non-mainstream Linux distros with a port system, are playing with this and it bears watching. (Debian would be a killer update system if the updates were, well, more up to date. ;-) Though as a server OS it's not a bad configuration, and maybe they're right to avoid the Kernel of Pain.) AFAIK, other than Red Carpet, the Mandrake tools are not present elsewhere. Similar things exist for updating SuSE, and there are more powerful tools for updating Debian, Connectiva, FreeBSD, Gentoo and Soceror. For GUI *configuration* however, Mandrake is the reigning champion; but a considerable amount of configuration *can* be done with SuSE's tools. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Wednesday 06 February 2002 12:18 am, Joshua Lee wrote: Even Microsoft doesn't do all that much mass media advertising. A couple of big events when a new version of the Windows virus is propagated, and then media-wise there is silence. Really? What part of this planet are you from? Walk into any computer store and look around, what do you see? Every new system being sold and advertised on tv is advertising M$. Every flyer selling computers is advertising M$. I can fill a whole page on how M$ aggresively markets their virii. Just pick up a computer magazine and you'll find it full of M$ dung. Talk to any K12 teacher and see what they teach their studens. Then ask them if they know anything about k12ltsp (www.k12ltsp.org) probably nothing! They can however give you a list of MSN sites and even tell you what you will find there. M$ has left no stone unturned when it comes to advertising its virii or dealing with its competition. To the majority FUD is an unfamiliar term, but we know how M$ used it to infect this planet. To attack a product is just another form of advertising your own. M$ manufactured FUD was always MASS MEDIA. Do you thing that M$ filled all the K12 schools with their virii out of the goodness of their heart? That was the greatest mass media push ever! They have even made inroads to comunity colleges. Three years ago I decided it was time to learn to code in C, so I enroled (Edmonton Alberta). After paying my dues I enter their programing course. Then I'm told that the C programing is only a small part of the course (15%) the rest of the course is visuall basic. It took two sessions in court to get my money back. Everywhere you look you see M$. Is that not mass media? JMHO -- Ted Ozolins (VE7TVO) Westbank, B. C. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
They're all there, its just that Mandrake has practically eliminated the need for the CLI tools. And don't think that this is _not_ what people It's not what *I* want, though it'd be nice at times to have them when knowledge is lacking and it's not in a situation where it would stomp on an existing custom-configured text file. That's fine, and I want everyone to have what they want. Choice is paramount. Working the way you want to is critical. The problem lies with the new users. Whether they approach a Mac, Windows box, or even Mandrake configured Linux box if they can't get some results from it immediately they will walk away. Ask anyone who's spent a mere 5 minutes with any OS for the first time and if it didn't go well, that OS will go on their Sucky list. So, IMHO, the ultimate goal for Linux is twofold: -Create a GUI-based system that is the pinnacle of ease and intuitiveness. Tools should fall to hand. Menus should contain only the items that need to be there. A standardized widget set language should be created, allowing the user, not the developer, to globally decide what their widgets will look like and how they will work. This last item is critical. There are far too many widget libraries and no standards of appearance are adhered to. Leave choice in, but give the ultimate choice to the end-user. -Leave the system architecture alone. Don't fix what ain't broke. Design applications for both GUI and console use. Every time someone develops a new application they should also provide a framework that could be rolled into a global framework system. Make it easier to develop for Linux than it is for Windows. When starting a project, make it for Linux *and* MacOS X. Somebody please yank the WP code out of OpenOffice and make a real clone of M$ Word!! I believe that this mission approach will make Linux an Every Person OS... in time. Forget chasing Windows. Forget trying to integrate Windows this and Windows that. Dump WINE. Yes, I said dump WINE. There's enough talent out there to make Linux native versions of everything that Windows has, and nobody has to pay the Pied Piper of Redmond. Finally, stop being afraid of making proprietary code. People have to make money and making everything free is not going to do it. Keep the OS GNU licensed, but make some commercial apps, folks! Do you think M$ has nearly $40 billion in the bank because it gave everything away? Last, and certainly not least, is Linux. Even Red Hat, the self-appointed champion of the Open Source and Linux movements, has been unable to achieve the ease of use and GUI integration of Mandrake. There are few distros that Red Hat is not meant for the desktop, it's CEO and one of it's founders have both made statements to that effect. Once that's been considered the lack of GUI-driven tools versus having stable and more conservative versions of software becomes important; availability of servers, not the desktop, is their goal. What should be compared is Mandrake versus SuSE, as SuSE hasn't abandoned the desktop market completely, though it is closely involved with a partnership with IBM. (That will hopefully cure it's occasional financial worries.) This is a major problem. The most visible Linux company in the world is saying that Linux is not bound for the desktop. If anyone is shooting themselves in the foot, its Linux. If IBM can take Linux and make an entire server business out of it and HP can sign a contract with Mandrake to supply them with desktop software (corporate or otherwise) then Linux can work on the desktop. In fact, its far more scalable than Windows. Hell, we've seen Linux in everything from a matchbox sized server to an IBM behemoth. What more does it take to prove the damn things worthiness!! Tyler ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
Today Tyler Regas was heard saying: snip -Redmond. Finally, stop being afraid of making proprietary code. People -have to make money and making everything free is not going to do it. -Keep the OS GNU licensed, but make some commercial apps, folks! Do you -think M$ has nearly $40 billion in the bank because it gave everything -away? *** No, but this depends entirely of what your goal in life is. If it is a filled up bank account than yes you are right. There are people, however, for whom crispy bills are not the main driving force. Furthermore you seem to forget Linux is what it is because not everybody has dollar signs in his eyes. The people who feel like making proprietary apps. can go ahead, but I do not think you should blame the community for having strong principals. We need the free code fana's as the counter weight to the greedy guy's... Cheers, Zoran. -- If you find me, please return me to my $HOME: my address is 'cd'. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On February 6, 2002 03:22 am, Joshua Lee wrote: SuSE Pro seems to have the most packages of any distribution, it's famous for that. I couldn't find FreeSWAN on my system though, and I'm running 7.3, the latest. Where does it live at? /usr/share/doc/susehilf/raw_pacs/en/freeswan -- burns ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
I agree whole-heartedly with everything you just said. Webmin and
webmin-like tools are excellent and will get even better as better
error-checking is written into the code. The biggest problem with Webmin
is that it is all done in perl. I'd like to see the main system rewritten
using J2EE (at least servlets) on Tomcat. I believe it would be much
faster (yes, Bevis, I said that Java would run faster than something). I
was comparing SSH to the GUI admin tools of lesser-fortunate OS'es like
Windows Terminal Services and Remotely imPossible. Things of that nature.
Web GUI's are where it's at for GUI over the internet, although the CLI
is still much more powerful. GUI makes it clean and neat and nifty... but
there ain't no grep, awk, perl, cut, {insert favorite CLI tool} in a web
GUI. Note that Novell NetWare will is heading toward complete Web GUI
administration as well. They have seen that light... and others. Look
for Novell to treat Linux as a normal desktop OS. I have heard relyable
rumors of Desktop admin tools for Linux Desktops in the very near future.
On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:07:08 -0600
Michael Hipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You make good points, Matthew. But seems to me that something Webmin-ish
should be able to run over most any link. Webmin, imho, is the best
candidate for a be-all administrator's gui tool. (Its many current
shortcomings notwithstanding).
But on the desktop I wish the likes of Mandrake, et al would stop
mucking with their very functional but utterly oddball things like
HardDrak and such. If we could put all their efforts into Kde Control
Center the issue could shortly be put into the solved problem file.
above URL.
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Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
Not that I am at all anti-GUI. But there are and will ALWAYS be good reasons for a CLI. For instance, there are simple CLI tools which can be combined in any number of ways to find information and sort/cut/copy/mail/fold/spindle/mutilate/etc... which would take a long time to create a GUI to do. Oftentimes the knowledgeable mind wishes to do something not commonly done but very time-saving and helpful (eg. manipulate a listing of a domain). He can spend time thinking of an extensible design for a GUI (which would allow him to add on in the future as different needs arose), or he could understand the tools that already exist (building-block tools) and go to bash and type: nslookup ls amway.com amway exit grep router amway and have a listing of every listing in the amway.com network that has the work router in it. Now if he wanted to change the formatting or pipe it into some other program or file, it's a simple couple key-strokes. Not that you couldn't do ALL these things in a GUI. But in that 30 seconds it just took you to do all that, it would take at least a week to write some code to do the same thing in a GUI and debug and extend and create a system which would allow you to be creative and change the output and routing/mangling next week. It just doesn't make good sense. Because you may never do the same thing twice. In order to build a GUI tool which does all that you need, it would take you hundreds of times longer than just using the tools for the flexibility that they offer. On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:39:15 -0700 Tyler Regas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:04 AM 2/4/2002, you wrote: Bovine defacation! Doug Gwyn put it best when he said ``GUIs make simple things simple, and complex things impossible''. Doug Gwyn was incorrect. Good GUI design makes everything simple. Bad GUI design makes doing anything unbearable. I'm not saying that GUIs aren't useful for many things, and I certainly would find life a lot harder without them. On the other hand, there are many things I can do much more easily and quickly from the command line than I can poking through endless menus and screens to accomplish the same thing. It's a lot easier to copy all the text files in a directory to a floppy by typing ``cp *.txt /auto/floppy'' than it is to select them with a GUI, right-click copy, go find the floppy in another file manager, then right-click paste. How many times have you been selecting files from a dialog box with ctrl-leftclick, only to let up on the ctrl key, and loose all the ones you had selected? While I've never had to use two file managers to copy files to a floppy I can certainly understand why you selected this task as one complicated by a GUI. Of course, I'm talking about GUI design and not existing GUI technology. One should be able to select a number of files and then send them to floppy with a one click affair. A five file transfer should take no more than six clicks, seven tops. I also commiserate with you on the multiple select problem, but consider how much time it would take to copy several files of varying extension types from different directories to a floppy. Some applications are by nature GUI. GUIs make the infrequently performed system administration jobs more convenient. GUIs make it extremely difficult if not impossible to automate jobs. I think you have this backwards. A CLI tool is fine for infrequent management tasks. You can call it easily from a console. You can add it to a script or automate it with cron or what have you. You can concatenate it with other tools. OTOH, a GUI is well suited to frequent tasks for reporting and administration. Being able to glance at an activity monitor or click once to add a user is a time saver. The best GUI administration tools are basically front ends for command line programs, and either display or log the commands they execute so that jobs that are done frequently can be repeated very quickly by putting those commands in a script. Here, I emphatically agree with you. And its really this that offers the best tool for what the user prefers. Prefer the CLI, use it. Want a GUI, here it is. Same tool, different interface. Then again, there are some tools that are, as you've stated before, decidedly GUI oriented. A paint or illustration tool ala GIMP is a good example. --- Tyler Regas PHM Editor-in-Chief [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.pdahandyman.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
begin David A. Bandel's quote: | And my experience lately has been: | SuSE == RH (European style) == totally borken. | Mandrake on the other hand (8.1) has been nearly flawless. The 8.2 | Beta is even better. well, suse-7.3 is a pita in a lot of ways, some of them kernel-related, i think. 7.2, though, is as solid a non-caldera distribution as i've seen. we're hitting right now, seems to me, a considerable hump. the kernel has been a mess for more than a year, distros have elevated incompatibility to an art form, and big projects are infused with lots of people going off and doing as they damn well please rather than doing the stuff that needs to be done. it's going to be a real test, to see if we're going to need companies to step in and do the grunt work. at the moment, i wonder if in a couple years we won't all be using not just gnome but ximian gnome. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Sunday 03 February 2002 04:56 pm, Peter Ruskin warbled: I have 8.1 and Cooker, Keith. Do menudrake - Action - Menu style - Standard menu. Ok managed to do thata, thanks. There are loads of mirrors, I use these ( I won't list Cooker because you probably won't want that ) : ftp://ftp.sunet.se/Mandrake-devel/contrib/ ftp://ftp.sunet.se/Mandrake/updates/8.1/ ftp://ftp.sunet.se/Mandrake-devel/unsupported/8.1/ I believe that Software Manager will check the net if you're online and find sources for you. I have managed for the first time to update from online, no idea what the source was though. However are ther not total new updates like later kernael available ?? -- Keith Antoine aka 'skippy' 18 Arkana St, The Gap, Queensland 4061 Australia PH:61733002161 Retired Geriatric, Sometime Electronics Engineer, Knowall, Brain in storage ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:41, Burns MacDonald wrote: frontal lobotomy can produce a Windows OS clone. You're opinion is always worth respecting Burns but that's a cheap throway shot at explaining away the need to make an OS user friendly. A killer line to knock out opposition. (anyway, it takes a real idiot to create 10million lines of code and call it Windows, a lobotomy would have reduced the line count) The arcane blitheringly stupid cli syntax of Linux can get consigned to the dustbin where it deserved to be 20 years ago. The cli is an embarassment to those who use it. I no longer need to grep an awk before I bash it. It hasn't put one more hair on my chest. While I've learned a few more verbs since 1972 *nix hasn't kept up beyond the monosylable. We're stuck in a time warp with ls, tre, man, and a host of other inscrutable geek. The only reason people defend tar: a tape archiver for god's sake, is because it brings back fond memories of Bob Dylan, Coffee Shops and Duffel coats. (Ask them to be rational and the expression mists over) I'd call this geekspeak a high entry barrier when what I want to do is design T shirts and run accounts. If that were my profession, i'd like to love Linux, not wrestle it to the mat. CP/M did better. Bash syntax and the engine that runs it is more profuse with bloat than any complaint about kde. (read the maintainers' comments on same subject) Gui's and point n click assist in a need, and it doesn't equate to being a Windows clone. X is a good idea(tm). If there are similarities, then it's because Bill was savvy enough to use the original Xerox reccomendations, and the laid-in-concrete specifications for the 'special' keys of the keyboard, Not many people realise that the feel in windows look 'n feel is an IBM dictation(SAA something) for System 36/8 in existence prior to the PC, adopted by DEC, and passed on (partly) via the x-motif widget set. I would certainly back you in an argument where some distro was stupid enough to chase the Windoze market by emulating Windoze, but being a self-confessed gui-adorer doesn't make me a me-too Windoze luser. then maybe there are some users we just don't need to attract. /sunday evening rant too bloody right. I've never been attracted to *nix. I use it because Bill Gates and Steve Jobs gave me no choice. Linux has some way to go before I 'like' it. A decent gui is one. The MAC suffered because they insisted on a completely proprietary model in an increasingly generic market model. They were clobbered by the dominance of the PC clone model and all the explosive cross-development that brought with it. I would argue with you here, not on the clearness of above, but Steve's greed. The cause of all of the above ills were and are that Macs are crazily, greedily, unnecessarily, expensive. It was the Apple ][ that introduced the bus concept, *the* item from above that made all the difference for the Oem. Motorola fuelled to the 68040, a far better cpu in all respects than it's 80486 counterpart (not my say so, industry definition), Apple would not reduce the price sufficiently to get the cpu chip-volume up, Motorola, sensibly, gave the public what it deserved. Intel. -- http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:23:38 -0500 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: has a caldera-like desire to achieve and maintain stability. mandrake is in many ways little more than a broken red hat. Ouch! I thought RedHat was broken enough! _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:34:59 -0500 burns [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I understand that SuSE is common in Europe and 7.2 and 7.3 Pro are getting rave reviews as a server load, but for all intents and purposes, SuSE just doesn't exist in the North American corporate market. FWIW, I am running SuSE 7.2 Pro Maybe it's whiplash from their 6.x days when dieser dokumentation wast very Duetsche! Their broken english scared me off. They were the first distro I ever installed. Now I remember why Caldera is my first love. They were the second install (COL2.2) and the difference was night and day. (To say nothing of the fact that SuSE didn't get X working and COL was GUI from bootup/install. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
While I agree with some of what you said, Mike, I must add that as of February 4th, 2002, GUI apps for remote administration are still infants. They are relatively insecure and bloated in their use of bandwidth when compared with the their slick cousin, SSH. Yes, you can get lost in bash/etc... but that is because it is so powerful, as is the CLI. GUI's are great and I love to see more added to Linux all the time. I fight for Linux on the desktop and GUI-everything is what it is going to take. But when I administer remote clients (especially the poor souls locked into a 5 year contract with their 56k ISDN connection) SSH and the command line is what I want. Dated and trapped in a time-warp? Perhaps. Pragmatic? You betcha. On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:17:38 +1130 Mike Andrew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:41, Burns MacDonald wrote: frontal lobotomy can produce a Windows OS clone. You're opinion is always worth respecting Burns but that's a cheap throway shot at explaining away the need to make an OS user friendly. A killer line to knock out opposition. (anyway, it takes a real idiot to create 10million lines of code and call it Windows, a lobotomy would have reduced the line count) The arcane blitheringly stupid cli syntax of Linux can get consigned to the dustbin where it deserved to be 20 years ago. The cli is an embarassment to those who use it. I no longer need to grep an awk before I bash it. It hasn't put one more hair on my chest. While I've learned a few more verbs since 1972 *nix hasn't kept up beyond the monosylable. We're stuck in a time warp with ls, tre, man, and a host of other inscrutable geek. The only reason people defend tar: a tape archiver for god's sake, is because it brings back fond memories of Bob Dylan, Coffee Shops and Duffel coats. (Ask them to be rational and the expression mists over) I'd call this geekspeak a high entry barrier when what I want to do is design T shirts and run accounts. If that were my profession, i'd like to love Linux, not wrestle it to the mat. CP/M did better. Bash syntax and the engine that runs it is more profuse with bloat than any complaint about kde. (read the maintainers' comments on same subject) Gui's and point n click assist in a need, and it doesn't equate to being a Windows clone. X is a good idea(tm). If there are similarities, then it's because Bill was savvy enough to use the original Xerox reccomendations, and the laid-in-concrete specifications for the 'special' keys of the keyboard, Not many people realise that the feel in windows look 'n feel is an IBM dictation(SAA something) for System 36/8 in existence prior to the PC, adopted by DEC, and passed on (partly) via the x-motif widget set. I would certainly back you in an argument where some distro was stupid enough to chase the Windoze market by emulating Windoze, but being a self-confessed gui-adorer doesn't make me a me-too Windoze luser. then maybe there are some users we just don't need to attract. /sunday evening rant too bloody right. I've never been attracted to *nix. I use it because Bill Gates and Steve Jobs gave me no choice. Linux has some way to go before I 'like' it. A decent gui is one. The MAC suffered because they insisted on a completely proprietary model in an increasingly generic market model. They were clobbered by the dominance of the PC clone model and all the explosive cross-development that brought with it. I would argue with you here, not on the clearness of above, but Steve's greed. The cause of all of the above ills were and are that Macs are crazily, greedily, unnecessarily, expensive. It was the Apple ][ that introduced the bus concept, *the* item from above that made all the difference for the Oem. Motorola fuelled to the 68040, a far better cpu in all respects than it's 80486 counterpart (not my say so, industry definition), Apple would not reduce the price sufficiently to get the cpu chip-volume up, Motorola, sensibly, gave the public what it deserved. Intel. -- http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
You make good points, Matthew. But seems to me that something Webmin-ish should be able to run over most any link. Webmin, imho, is the best candidate for a be-all administrator's gui tool. (Its many current shortcomings notwithstanding). But on the desktop I wish the likes of Mandrake, et al would stop mucking with their very functional but utterly oddball things like HardDrak and such. If we could put all their efforts into Kde Control Center the issue could shortly be put into the solved problem file. Michael On Monday 04 February 2002 09:40 am, Matthew Carpenter wrote: While I agree with some of what you said, Mike, I must add that as of February 4th, 2002, GUI apps for remote administration are still infants. They are relatively insecure and bloated in their use of bandwidth when compared with the their slick cousin, SSH. Yes, you can get lost in bash/etc... but that is because it is so powerful, as is the CLI. GUI's are great and I love to see more added to Linux all the time. I fight for Linux on the desktop and GUI-everything is what it is going to take. But when I administer remote clients (especially the poor souls locked into a 5 year contract with their 56k ISDN connection) SSH and the command line is what I want. Dated and trapped in a time-warp? Perhaps. Pragmatic? You betcha. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Monday 04 February 2002 06:47 am, Mike Andrew wrote: [snip] The arcane blitheringly stupid cli syntax of Linux can get consigned to the dustbin where it deserved to be 20 years ago. The cli is an embarassment to those who use it. I no longer need to grep an awk before I bash it. It hasn't put one more hair on my chest. While I've learned a few more verbs since 1972 *nix hasn't kept up beyond the monosylable. We're stuck in a time warp with ls, tre, man, and a host of other inscrutable geek. The only reason people defend tar: a tape archiver for god's sake, is because it brings back fond memories of Bob Dylan, Coffee Shops and Duffel coats. (Ask them to be rational and the expression mists over) I'd call this geekspeak a high entry barrier when what I want to do is design T shirts and run accounts. If that were my profession, i'd like to love Linux, not wrestle it to the mat. [snip] Gui's and point n click assist in a need, and it doesn't equate to being a Windows clone. X is a good idea(tm).[snip] Bravo! Wish I'd said all that. I would certainly back you in an argument where some distro was stupid enough to chase the Windoze market by emulating Windoze, but being a self-confessed gui-adorer doesn't make me a me-too Windoze luser. Agreed. But I believe the likes of Lycoris and Elx are contributing something real to Linux with innovation like simplified menu structure, simple network browser, preconfiguration targeted to end users, etc. It don't see any of the below as a foregone conclusion: 1) That an OS must be difficult to use in order to be powerful and stable. 2) That an OS cannot satisfy both users and gurus alike. 3) That emulating those things that Windows does well (*not* a null list) will somehow turn Linux into a proprietary, unsecure, unstable, expensive, resource hogging, reboot-and-reload clone of Windows. Michael ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 12:17:38AM +1130, Mike Andrew wrote: On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:41, Burns MacDonald wrote: frontal lobotomy can produce a Windows OS clone. You're opinion is always worth respecting Burns but that's a cheap throway shot at explaining away the need to make an OS user friendly. A killer line to knock out opposition. (anyway, it takes a real idiot to create 10million lines of code and call it Windows, a lobotomy would have reduced the line count) The arcane blitheringly stupid cli syntax of Linux can get consigned to the dustbin where it deserved to be 20 years ago. The cli is an embarassment to those who use it... Bovine defacation! Doug Gwyn put it best when he said ``GUIs make simple things simple, and complex things impossible''. I'm not saying that GUIs aren't useful for many things, and I certainly would find life a lot harder without them. On the other hand, there are many things I can do much more easily and quickly from the command line than I can poking through endless menus and screens to accomplish the same thing. It's a lot easier to copy all the text files in a directory to a floppy by typing ``cp *.txt /auto/floppy'' than it is to select them with a GUI, right-click copy, go find the floppy in another file manager, then right-click paste. How many times have you been selecting files from a dialog box with ctrl-leftclick, only to let up on the ctrl key, and loose all the ones you had selected? Some applications are by nature GUI. GUIs make the infrequently performed system administration jobs more convenient. GUIs make it extremely difficult if not impossible to automate jobs. The best GUI administration tools are basically front ends for command line programs, and either display or log the commands they execute so that jobs that are done frequently can be repeated very quickly by putting those commands in a script. As an example of this, I frequently have to burn CDs containing all the vendor updates for a system along with all of the software we've written for installations, and the directory this is in has gotten too large to fit on a single CDrom so I have to exclude some files and directories. I did this with xcdroast, tweaking patterns until I got it right, then put the commands it used to make the ISO file system, burn, and verify the CD into a short script that I can now execute from the command line in less time than it takes to get xcdroast past the initial greeting screen (less people time, not the time to actually do the processing). Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ A fake fortuneteller can be tolerated. But an authentic soothsayer should be shot on sight. Cassandra did not get half the kicking around she deserved. -- R.A. Heinlein ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
At 09:11 PM 2/3/2002, you wrote: Tyler wrote: They're all there, its just that Mandrake has practically eliminated the need for the CLI tools. Oh swell... like filling your car floor to ceiling with cotton candy, then trying to drive down the street. To clarify; the GUI tools are eliminating the need for CLI tools, not removing them from the distros. As Linux is all about choice (whereas M$ is about using M$ and nothing else) the simple fact that most GUIs are front-ends to CLI tools means you can use what you like. MS RANT SNIPPED. SEE Matt Carpenter's MSG ON SAME The Mac was there, but it succumbed to poor management, a 'hippy' mentality, and an accomplice factor that causes them to lump in with MS instead of compete. The MAC suffered because they insisted on a completely proprietary model in an increasingly generic market model. They were clobbered by the dominance of the PC clone model and all the explosive cross-development that brought with it. If Apple suffers from proprietary hardware then there would be decline and not growth. The popularity of the iMac, ridiculous as it may be, is clear indication that people want something simple and easy to use. And, lest we forget, the dominance of the PC platform was defined by the oft illegal marketing and contract policies of Microsoft. If market were based entirely on quality and ease of use then Amiga and Apple would own the market. Next comes Psion/Symbian. I know, this doesn't make much sense, but its a reality. EPOC32 and the Symbian OS (which are really quite similar) is very compatible with Windows and MS file formats, is extremely scalable (from phone to desktop), and handles Java and TCP/IP with native aplomb. Psion's inability to properly market handheld devices to the consumer and keep a steady flow of new, evolutionary devices coming did, however, clearly indicate that it will take longer to get to the desktop. Psion did a pretty good business in Europe, especially with their handhelds devices... they were years ahead of the current PDA market. However, they became stagnant and are starting to lose share in a market they should have dominated. They easily could have been Palm, but for old boy parochialism and an inability to think globally and reach beyond regional markets. You're a PDA guy - you should know that. Begging your pardon, Burns, but I that's what I said. Psion's withdrawal from the consumer market was created by their inability to properly market the devices to consumers and their lack of new products that met the demands of the user. That they bowed to the parochial is moot as made clear by the ludicrous introduction of the SonicBlue/Diamond Mako as an entry into the US market. Too little, too late. Tyler ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
At 10:04 AM 2/4/2002, you wrote: Bovine defacation! Doug Gwyn put it best when he said ``GUIs make simple things simple, and complex things impossible''. Doug Gwyn was incorrect. Good GUI design makes everything simple. Bad GUI design makes doing anything unbearable. I'm not saying that GUIs aren't useful for many things, and I certainly would find life a lot harder without them. On the other hand, there are many things I can do much more easily and quickly from the command line than I can poking through endless menus and screens to accomplish the same thing. It's a lot easier to copy all the text files in a directory to a floppy by typing ``cp *.txt /auto/floppy'' than it is to select them with a GUI, right-click copy, go find the floppy in another file manager, then right-click paste. How many times have you been selecting files from a dialog box with ctrl-leftclick, only to let up on the ctrl key, and loose all the ones you had selected? While I've never had to use two file managers to copy files to a floppy I can certainly understand why you selected this task as one complicated by a GUI. Of course, I'm talking about GUI design and not existing GUI technology. One should be able to select a number of files and then send them to floppy with a one click affair. A five file transfer should take no more than six clicks, seven tops. I also commiserate with you on the multiple select problem, but consider how much time it would take to copy several files of varying extension types from different directories to a floppy. Some applications are by nature GUI. GUIs make the infrequently performed system administration jobs more convenient. GUIs make it extremely difficult if not impossible to automate jobs. I think you have this backwards. A CLI tool is fine for infrequent management tasks. You can call it easily from a console. You can add it to a script or automate it with cron or what have you. You can concatenate it with other tools. OTOH, a GUI is well suited to frequent tasks for reporting and administration. Being able to glance at an activity monitor or click once to add a user is a time saver. The best GUI administration tools are basically front ends for command line programs, and either display or log the commands they execute so that jobs that are done frequently can be repeated very quickly by putting those commands in a script. Here, I emphatically agree with you. And its really this that offers the best tool for what the user prefers. Prefer the CLI, use it. Want a GUI, here it is. Same tool, different interface. Then again, there are some tools that are, as you've stated before, decidedly GUI oriented. A paint or illustration tool ala GIMP is a good example. --- Tyler Regas PHM Editor-in-Chief [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.pdahandyman.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Monday 04 Feb 2002 23:30, Keith Antoine wrote: On Sunday 03 February 2002 04:56 pm, Peter Ruskin warbled: I have 8.1 and Cooker, Keith. Do menudrake - Action - Menu style - Standard menu. Ok managed to do thata, thanks. There are loads of mirrors, I use these ( I won't list Cooker because you probably won't want that ) : ftp://ftp.sunet.se/Mandrake-devel/contrib/ ftp://ftp.sunet.se/Mandrake/updates/8.1/ ftp://ftp.sunet.se/Mandrake-devel/unsupported/8.1/ I believe that Software Manager will check the net if you're online and find sources for you. I have managed for the first time to update from online, no idea what Good. the source was though. However are ther not total new updates like later kernael available ?? There are currently 105 RPMs in Mandrake/updates/8.1/, including kernel 2.4.8-34.1mdk. Mandrake-devel/unsupported/8.1/ has 66 RPMs plus 4 sub-directories. -- Peter Ruskin, Wrexham, Wales. AMD Athlon XP 1600+, 512MB RAM. Registered Linux User 219434. Mandrake Linux release 8.1 (Vitamin) Kernel 2.4.8-34.1mdk-win4lin, XFree86 4.1.0, patch level 21mdk. KDE: 2.2.2. Qt: 2.3.2. Up 1 hour 39 minutes. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 03:10, Matthew Carpenter wrote: They are relatively insecure and bloated in their use of bandwidth when compared with the their slick cousin, SSH. agreed. -- http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 04:34, Bill Campbell wrote: It's a lot easier to copy all the text files in a directory to a floppy by typing ``cp *.txt /auto/floppy'' than it is to select them with a GUI, right-click copy, go find the floppy in another file manager, then It's a lot easier to make a typo, too. The best GUI administration tools are basically front ends for command line [snip] No contest. A good gui is a visual front end to a script. It might contain additional checks, some automation etc, but that's the bottom line. There's no fite about the goodness(tm) of a cli. It's evolvement under *nix has a lot to answer for. It doesn't need to be that tuff. -- http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 11:44:48AM +1130, Mike Andrew wrote: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 04:34, Bill Campbell wrote: It's a lot easier to copy all the text files in a directory to a floppy by typing ``cp *.txt /auto/floppy'' than it is to select them with a GUI, right-click copy, go find the floppy in another file manager, then It's a lot easier to make a typo, too. Yabbut with command history, it's easy to fix it and rerun the command. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.'' -- Frederick Douglass. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
Today Mike Andrew was heard saying: -On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:41, Burns MacDonald wrote: - - frontal lobotomy can produce a Windows OS clone. - snip -count) The arcane blitheringly stupid cli syntax of Linux can get consigned -to the dustbin where it deserved to be 20 years ago. The cli is an *** But before that somebody will have to come with a valid alternative. At this point I don't see any so I don't think you should send something to a dustbin without having something new and better to replace it. The arcane blitheringly stupid cli syntax is the building stone of a lot of things, scripts for one, which would end up in the dustbin too. Don't you think you're a bit short sighted? -embarassment to those who use it. I no longer need to grep an awk before I *** No not at all. Why an embarrassment? I'm very much OK the way it is. -bash it. It hasn't put one more hair on my chest. While I've learned a few -more verbs since 1972 *nix hasn't kept up beyond the monosylable. We're -stuck in a time warp with ls, tre, man, and a host of other inscrutable geek. -The only reason people defend tar: a tape archiver for god's sake, is -because it brings back fond memories of Bob Dylan, Coffee Shops and Duffel -coats. (Ask them to be rational and the expression mists over) *** Simplicity (tar cvf [output.file] [input file] is all it takes), compatibility, the fact it exists and nobody came up with something else. Furthermore, advance or something better does not necessarily mean something else. If it works don't brake it. It works, why changing? -I'd call this geekspeak a high entry barrier when what I want to do is design -T shirts and run accounts. If that were my profession, i'd like to love -Linux, not wrestle it to the mat. CP/M did better. Bash syntax and the engine -that runs it is more profuse with bloat than any complaint about kde. (read -the maintainers' comments on same subject) *** You switched on your rant mode!? Your views used to be more balanced. snip -but being a self-confessed gui-adorer doesn't make me a me-too Windoze -luser. *** Is this what p* you off. OK, I can understand that. -then maybe there are some users we just don't need to attract. -/sunday evening rant - -too bloody right. I've never been attracted to *nix. I use it because -Bill Gates and Steve Jobs gave me no choice. Linux has some way to go -before I 'like' it. A decent gui is one. *** You do not use it because you believe it can solve your problem but because you do not have a choice. I think that is your problem. Cheers, Zoran. -- If you find me, please return me to my $HOME: my address is 'cd'. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
Tyler Regas wrote: Don't you think that's pretty cynical? I happen to think that Mandrake has a very strong community connection. Hell, they post their nightly builds on Cooker, FCS! At 11:44 PM 2/2/2002, you wrote: Mostly SUSE and mandrake are going for servers with partners like IBM and such big names so they are trying to ignore the normal user and marketing of them to big firms is only done with the partner Believe you have SuSe and Mandrake confused with Caldera. I have sitting on the retail bookshelf boxed sets of Mandrake 8.1 and SuSe 7.2 for the desktop computer. Suse even included a sheet of stickers to plaster my box with and a pin to jam in my ballhat.Mandrake is running a Mandrake Club users list that periodically receives info from the company of interest to the common user and tech advice from other users. Lee --- Tyler Regas PHM Editor-in-Chief [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.pdahandyman.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
I've been pretty happy with Mandrake on my desktop. I only wish they'd stick a little closer to the normal menuing system. I find mdk's customized menu rather annoying. One thing nice I've found about SuSE, BTW, is that it includes FreeSWAN VPN solution in the box. Caldera, RH, and I believe Mdk can't say that. On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 08:33:55 -0800 (PST) Net Llama [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know how true this is. Mandrake is notoriously bleeding edge. No company is going to want to install their product for normal usage. --- zohar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mostly SUSE and mandrake are going for servers with partners like IBM and such big names so they are trying to ignore the normal user and marketing of them to big firms is only done with the partner -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lee Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002 Ted Ozolins wrote: On Thursday 31 January 2002 08:52 am, Tony Alfrey wrote: o: SuSE Linux List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I was at LWCE yesterday and found SuSE to be absent from the floor. I came to know later that they cancelled their spot. So with this and coupled with the fact that they laid off most of the US staff, does it mean that SuSE is no longer interested in US market? Lenz? I was also surprised to see Mandrake booth. This year, the floor was even smaller and attendence lighter. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Mandrake. Lately, they have begun to show an agressive streak. Imagine that the French advance while the Germans retreat. The next thing you know somebody will let the cat out of that bag that Gates runs Linux on his home computer. = Lonni J. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Step-by-step help: http://netllama.ipfox.com . __ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Sunday 03 February 2002 12:59 pm, Peter Ruskin warbled: I've always detested the Mandrakised menus but you don't have to suffer them. If you start menudrake and select standard menu then log out, when you log in again the menus are as you expect them. Which version of Mandrake do you have. I started MenuDrake up; I think, and could not find that standard menu tag anywhere (8.1)... I use mostly KDE and I've added a single Quick Browser on kicker pointing to /usr/share/applnk-mdk -- just to see if I may be missing anything after upgrades. Now thats something that I have not been able to fathom out how to do. There is nothing to say how to get online and upgrade the files. I found the the mandrake control centre and click on System - Software Manager. I then have a small window 'configure a source', click on this it gives me sources but from here on I am lost: too bloody complicated. All i want to do is like Suse upload the updates and install them. -- Keith Antoine aka 'skippy' 18 Arkana St, The Gap, Queensland 4061 Australia PH:61733002161 Retired Geriatric, Sometime Electronics Engineer, Knowall, Brain in storage ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Matthew Carpenter wrote: I've been pretty happy with Mandrake on my desktop. I only wish they'd stick a little closer to the normal menuing system. I find mdk's customized menu rather annoying. One thing nice I've found about SuSE, BTW, is that it includes FreeSWAN VPN solution in the box. Caldera, RH, and I believe Mdk can't say that. Free/SWAN patches are in the Mandrake kernel, as well as the user space applications. Stew Benedict ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Monday 04 Feb 2002 11:42, Keith Antoine wrote: On Sunday 03 February 2002 12:59 pm, Peter Ruskin warbled: I've always detested the Mandrakised menus but you don't have to suffer them. If you start menudrake and select standard menu then log out, when you log in again the menus are as you expect them. Which version of Mandrake do you have. I started MenuDrake up; I think, and could not find that standard menu tag anywhere (8.1)... I have 8.1 and Cooker, Keith. Do menudrake - Action - Menu style - Standard menu. I use mostly KDE and I've added a single Quick Browser on kicker pointing to /usr/share/applnk-mdk -- just to see if I may be missing anything after upgrades. Now thats something that I have not been able to fathom out how to do. There is nothing to say how to get online and upgrade the files. I found the the mandrake control centre and click on System - Software Manager. I then have a small window 'configure a source', click on this it gives me sources but from here on I am lost: too bloody complicated. All i want to do is like Suse upload the updates and install them. There are loads of mirrors, I use these ( I won't list Cooker because you probably won't want that ) : ftp://ftp.sunet.se/Mandrake-devel/contrib/ ftp://ftp.sunet.se/Mandrake/updates/8.1/ ftp://ftp.sunet.se/Mandrake-devel/unsupported/8.1/ I believe that Software Manager will check the net if you're online and find sources for you. -- Peter Ruskin, Wrexham, Wales. AMD Athlon XP 1600+, 512MB RAM. Registered Linux User 219434. Mandrake Linux release 8.1 (Vitamin) Kernel 2.4.8-34.1mdk-win4lin, XFree86 4.1.0, patch level 21mdk. KDE: 2.2.2. Qt: 2.3.2. Up 9 hours 22 minutes. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Sun, 3 Feb 2002 08:33:55 -0800 (PST) Net Llama [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know how true this is. Mandrake is notoriously bleeding edge. No company is going to want to install their product for normal usage. --- zohar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mostly SUSE and mandrake are going for servers with partners like IBM and such big names so they are trying to ignore the normal user and marketing of them to big firms is only done with the partner -Original Message- On Behalf Of Lee Ted Ozolins wrote: On Thursday 31 January 2002 08:52 am, Tony Alfrey wrote: I was at LWCE yesterday and found SuSE to be absent from the floor. I was also surprised to see Mandrake booth. This year, the floor was even smaller and attendence lighter. Mandrake changed from one relese to the next. They used to be just a tiche better than RedHat, I installed a Beta that worked great, but every release after that was further over the edge. I'm back to ELX for now. -- Collins Richey (Denver Area) WWTLRD? - ELX - XFCE - SYLPHEED ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
RE: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
I don't know how true this is. Mandrake is notoriously bleeding edge. No company is going to want to install their product for normal usage. Ah, but that's where Mandrake has succeeded where others, especially Red Hat have not. Mandrake just inked a deal with HP to provide two versions of 8.1 (I think) for the vast majority of *desktop* systems HP sells. Mandrake being on the bleeding edge has put them into the position where they could accept this contract. Their system is the most complete, GUI-based Linux distro there is. Literally no feature must be edited from a text editor. No critical application is only accessible through the console. They're all there, its just that Mandrake has practically eliminated the need for the CLI tools. And don't think that this is _not_ what people want. They most assuredly do. No matter how slick and shifty MS was (and is), if Windows simply sucked so bad as to be nigh unusable, people would stop using it. Now, we all know, regardless of how much we hate M$, that the thing does work... to a degree. This is enough for the average user and won't change for some time, or until something easier and cheaper and 100% compatible comes along. The Mac was there, but it succumbed to poor management, a 'hippy' mentality, and an accomplice factor that causes them to lump in with MS instead of compete. If Apple was really serious about competition and not just making easy money riding on MS' anti-trust coattails they would have been building dull beige models of the iMac and G3/4 systems all along to sell into corporations and not spend all their time on candy colored operating systems, regardless of how truly bitching it may be. Next comes Psion/Symbian. I know, this doesn't make much sense, but its a reality. EPOC32 and the Symbian OS (which are really quite similar) is very compatible with Windows and MS file formats, is extremely scalable (from phone to desktop), and handles Java and TCP/IP with native aplomb. Psion's inability to properly market handheld devices to the consumer and keep a steady flow of new, evolutionary devices coming did, however, clearly indicate that it will take longer to get to the desktop. Last, and certainly not least, is Linux. Even Red Hat, the self-appointed champion of the Open Source and Linux movements, has been unable to achieve the ease of use and GUI integration of Mandrake. There are few distros that come close to matching what Mandrake has been able to offer the desktop user. Combine Mandrake's Control Center, Mandrake Update (skip the kernel upgrade unless you've retained the stock kernel in your install, though), and Ximian's Red Carpet and you have a powerful GUI-based technology currency system in place. AFAIK, other than Red Carpet, the Mandrake tools are not present elsewhere. Tyler --- Tyler Regas PHM Editor-in-Chief [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.pdahandyman.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
RE: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
The thing is they are selling the retail pack but are not after the pranks of marketing that they were doing before to sell to individual user. Ex. Suse is giving this things that its normal advertising is done by seeing the stickers of your machine and pin on your ballhat but have you seen them advertising vigorously like big names like IBM, HP, Compaq, Microsoft, Seagate, etc. Keeping a dedicated men/women for support and a dedicated server to make the user list working though seem to be a bit costlier for an individual user but it's a cheap deal in comparison of running an advertising campaign. To the point, this linux resellers are in the retail market but sees more stuff in the server market and wants to make big bucks there. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lee Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 9:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002 Tyler Regas wrote: Don't you think that's pretty cynical? I happen to think that Mandrake has a very strong community connection. Hell, they post their nightly builds on Cooker, FCS! At 11:44 PM 2/2/2002, you wrote: Mostly SUSE and mandrake are going for servers with partners like IBM and such big names so they are trying to ignore the normal user and marketing of them to big firms is only done with the partner Believe you have SuSe and Mandrake confused with Caldera. I have sitting on the retail bookshelf boxed sets of Mandrake 8.1 and SuSe 7.2 for the desktop computer. Suse even included a sheet of stickers to plaster my box with and a pin to jam in my ballhat.Mandrake is running a Mandrake Club users list that periodically receives info from the company of interest to the common user and tech advice from other users. Lee --- Tyler Regas PHM Editor-in-Chief [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.pdahandyman.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
Tyler wrote: They're all there, its just that Mandrake has practically eliminated the need for the CLI tools. Oh swell... like filling your car floor to ceiling with cotton candy, then trying to drive down the street. Now, we all know, regardless of how much we hate M$, that the thing does work... to a degree. This is enough for the average user and won't change for some time, or until something easier and cheaper and 100% compatible comes along. I'm sorry, Tyler, but I just can't bring myself to join the our aim is to out-windows Microsoft camp. IMHO anybody with enough money, time and a frontal lobotomy can produce a Windows OS clone. We shouldn't compromise on the values that make Linux *better* (and different). I don't want to sound elitist and it's true we do still have a ways to go in terms of useability, but if we have to make Linux look and act exactly like Windows, then maybe there are some users we just don't need to attract. /sunday evening rant The Mac was there, but it succumbed to poor management, a 'hippy' mentality, and an accomplice factor that causes them to lump in with MS instead of compete. The MAC suffered because they insisted on a completely proprietary model in an increasingly generic market model. They were clobbered by the dominance of the PC clone model and all the explosive cross-development that brought with it. Next comes Psion/Symbian. I know, this doesn't make much sense, but its a reality. EPOC32 and the Symbian OS (which are really quite similar) is very compatible with Windows and MS file formats, is extremely scalable (from phone to desktop), and handles Java and TCP/IP with native aplomb. Psion's inability to properly market handheld devices to the consumer and keep a steady flow of new, evolutionary devices coming did, however, clearly indicate that it will take longer to get to the desktop. Psion did a pretty good business in Europe, especially with their handhelds devices... they were years ahead of the current PDA market. However, they became stagnant and are starting to lose share in a market they should have dominated. They easily could have been Palm, but for old boy parochialism and an inability to think globally and reach beyond regional markets. You're a PDA guy - you should know that. Last, and certainly not least, is Linux. Even Red Hat, the self-appointed champion of the Open Source and Linux movements, has been unable to achieve the ease of use and GUI integration of Mandrake. There are few distros that come close to matching what Mandrake has been able to offer the desktop user. Combine Mandrake's Control Center, Mandrake Update (skip the kernel upgrade unless you've retained the stock kernel in your install, though), and Ximian's Red Carpet and you have a powerful GUI-based technology currency system in place. Mandrake's primary money market is Europe, where the Linux desktop is gaining far greater acceptance than on this side of the pond. Here, in North America, the Linux market is primarily in the server room and that is where RedHat is putting most of its development resources. Ipso Facto: Engineering goes where the bucks are - where that is depends upon your target market. YMMV -- burns ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
begin Burns MacDonald's quote: | Tyler wrote: | They're all there, its just that Mandrake has practically | eliminated the need for the CLI tools. | | Oh swell... like filling your car floor to ceiling with cotton | candy, then trying to drive down the street. which is actually not far from my characterizing suse's configuration tools -- filling the box so full of strofoam peanuts that there's no room to move. | I'm sorry, Tyler, but I just can't bring myself to join the our | aim is to out-windows Microsoft camp. IMHO anybody with enough | money, time and a frontal lobotomy can produce a Windows OS clone. | We shouldn't compromise on the values that make Linux *better* (and | different). I don't want to sound elitist and it's true we do still | have a ways to go in terms of useability, but if we have to make | Linux look and act exactly like Windows, then maybe there are some | users we just don't need to attract. /sunday evening rant agreement again. a surprisingly delightful post came from rms on the gnome list -- he said that chasing msft is foolish, that chasing the mac would make far more sense. which it would, because linux is far more flexible than the mac, but the mac has a gui that eats for breakfast the best that msft has to offer. | The MAC suffered because they insisted on a completely proprietary | model in an increasingly generic market model. They were clobbered | by the dominance of the PC clone model and all the explosive | cross-development that brought with it. exactly right. ibm's open architecture. | Psion did a pretty good business in Europe, especially with their | handhelds devices... they were years ahead of the current PDA | market. However, they became stagnant and are starting to lose | share in a market they should have dominated. They easily could | have been Palm, but for old boy parochialism and an inability to | think globally and reach beyond regional markets. You're a PDA guy | - you should know that. the amstrad of the 90s. sad, really. i just spent a little while with the sharp zaurus, and it ought to devour everything in sight. even has a keyboard. though the market remains open for someone to produce the pentium (or, better, transmeta crusoe) equivalent of the wonderful old poquet pc with an ibm trackpoint-style pointing device. i keep hoping ibm does it, and ibm keeps not doing it. i have a toshiba libretto (p-166, 64 megs, 10 gigs, 800x480) that *does* run linux well -- wrote my piece on lwe on it, on the train coming home -- but the combination of its limited resources and linux developers' lack of discipline when writing code (it could, and ought to be, a hell of a lot tighter, but new hardware prevents its needing to be) keeps it from being really practical for most uses. | Mandrake's primary money market is Europe, where the Linux desktop | is gaining far greater acceptance than on this side of the pond. | Here, in North America, the Linux market is primarily in the server | room and that is where RedHat is putting most of its development | resources. Ipso Facto: Engineering goes where the bucks are - where | that is depends upon your target market. mandrake isn't doing all that well in europe, either -- suse is doing much better there, because despite its many obvious shortcomings, it has a caldera-like desire to achieve and maintain stability. mandrake is in many ways little more than a broken red hat. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On February 3, 2002 11:23 pm, dep wrote: agreement again. a surprisingly delightful post came from rms on the gnome list -- he said that chasing msft is foolish, that chasing the mac would make far more sense. which it would, because linux is far more flexible than the mac, but the mac has a gui that eats for breakfast the best that msft has to offer. Yup. Probably cause they have been working on it longer (before Bill acquired it). mandrake isn't doing all that well in europe, either -- suse is doing much better there, because despite its many obvious shortcomings, it has a caldera-like desire to achieve and maintain stability. mandrake is in many ways little more than a broken red hat. It's true. I have yet to see Mandrake running seriously in a server room... it's invariably RedHat, Debian, sometimes Slackware or (very rarely) Caldera. I understand that SuSE is common in Europe and 7.2 and 7.3 Pro are getting rave reviews as a server load, but for all intents and purposes, SuSE just doesn't exist in the North American corporate market. FWIW, I am running SuSE 7.2 Pro I am starting to see more and more OpenBSD which points to greater security awareness and an emphasis on locking down networked systems sadly, something that we are currently missing - there is no real security-oriented Linux distro. -- burns ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
begin burns's quote: | It's true. I have yet to see Mandrake running seriously in a server | room... it's invariably RedHat, Debian, sometimes Slackware or | (very rarely) Caldera. I understand that SuSE is common in Europe | and 7.2 and 7.3 Pro are getting rave reviews as a server load, but | for all intents and purposes, SuSE just doesn't exist in the North | American corporate market. FWIW, I am running SuSE 7.2 Pro i'm running 7.3 pro here, and i have gained nothing in the upgrade to justify the switch from 7.2. this one, imho, was rushed out the door. better to upgrade package-by-package, with 7.2 as the base. ymmv, of course. | I am starting to see more and more OpenBSD which points to greater | security awareness and an emphasis on locking down networked | systems sadly, something that we are currently missing - there | is no real security-oriented Linux distro. there are a few, but they're *really* niche. and there is selinux from the nsa, which is the real direction of things. the obsd movement has more, i'm afraid, to do with its kinship to netbsd, which in turn os OS-X, which means the availability of msft apps . . . . . -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
RE: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
Mostly SUSE and mandrake are going for servers with partners like IBM and such big names so they are trying to ignore the normal user and marketing of them to big firms is only done with the partner -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lee Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002 Ted Ozolins wrote: On Thursday 31 January 2002 08:52 am, Tony Alfrey wrote: o: SuSE Linux List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I was at LWCE yesterday and found SuSE to be absent from the floor. I came to know later that they cancelled their spot. So with this and coupled with the fact that they laid off most of the US staff, does it mean that SuSE is no longer interested in US market? Lenz? I was also surprised to see Mandrake booth. This year, the floor was even smaller and attendence lighter. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Mandrake. Lately, they have begun to show an agressive streak. Imagine that the French advance while the Germans retreat. The next thing you know somebody will let the cat out of that bag that Gates runs Linux on his home computer. Lee -- Ted Ozolins (VE7TVO) Westbank, B. C. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
RE: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
Don't you think that's pretty cynical? I happen to think that Mandrake has a very strong community connection. Hell, they post their nightly builds on Cooker, FCS! At 11:44 PM 2/2/2002, you wrote: Mostly SUSE and mandrake are going for servers with partners like IBM and such big names so they are trying to ignore the normal user and marketing of them to big firms is only done with the partner --- Tyler Regas PHM Editor-in-Chief [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.pdahandyman.com ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Thursday 31 January 2002 08:52 am, Tony Alfrey wrote: o: SuSE Linux List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I was at LWCE yesterday and found SuSE to be absent from the floor. I came to know later that they cancelled their spot. So with this and coupled with the fact that they laid off most of the US staff, does it mean that SuSE is no longer interested in US market? Lenz? I was also surprised to see Mandrake booth. This year, the floor was even smaller and attendence lighter. Why am I not surprised. How in hell do you expect to interest people in considering linux if all they hear and see is XP? -- Ted Ozolins (VE7TVO) Westbank, B. C. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002, Ted Ozolins wrote: I was at LWCE yesterday and found SuSE to be absent from the floor. Why am I not surprised. How in hell do you expect to interest people in considering linux if all they hear and see is XP? A correction on the SuSE mailing list: they are on the floor, near the IBM booth. The situation of people not knowing about Linux is probably going to change, IBM is airing advertisements now on TV. :-) ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Thursday 31 January 2002 04:11 pm,Ted Ozolins wrote: On Thursday 31 January 2002 08:52 am, Tony Alfrey wrote: o: SuSE Linux List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I was at LWCE yesterday and found SuSE to be absent from the floor. I came to know later that they cancelled their spot. So with this and coupled with the fact that they laid off most of the US staff, does it mean that SuSE is no longer interested in US market? Lenz? I was also surprised to see Mandrake booth. This year, the floor was even smaller and attendence lighter. Why am I not surprised. How in hell do you expect to interest people in considering linux if all they hear and see is XP? Sorry again, I may have posted too soon. I saw this reply from Chris Mahmood. Still too bad they had no booth. Yes, the entire office except for me and the accountant are there. We're spread between the IBM and a couple of other booths. -- Tony Alfrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd rather be sailing ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
On Thursday 31 January 2002 19:34, Joshua Lee wrote: | A correction on the SuSE mailing list: they are on the floor, near | the IBM booth. The situation of people not knowing about Linux is | probably going to change, IBM is airing advertisements now on TV. problem is, i spent yesterday there and part of it was spent searching for suse. if they're there, they're very effectively disguised. and the show this year is *miniscule* compared to last year, so it's not all that easy to get lost. hell, i spent a short time in a nice conversation with esr, and even exchanged pleasantries with jeff hemos bates and rob malda. almost intimate. tough to hide. and no evidence of suse but for a listing at the ibm display, which included other distributions as well. and actual suse people who were there as part of other displays said that suse had canceled two weeks ago. so there is definitely conflicting information around. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
Re: OT Fwd: SuSE noshow at LWCE NY 2002
Ted Ozolins wrote: On Thursday 31 January 2002 08:52 am, Tony Alfrey wrote: o: SuSE Linux List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I was at LWCE yesterday and found SuSE to be absent from the floor. I came to know later that they cancelled their spot. So with this and coupled with the fact that they laid off most of the US staff, does it mean that SuSE is no longer interested in US market? Lenz? I was also surprised to see Mandrake booth. This year, the floor was even smaller and attendence lighter. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Mandrake. Lately, they have begun to show an agressive streak. Imagine that the French advance while the Germans retreat. The next thing you know somebody will let the cat out of that bag that Gates runs Linux on his home computer. Lee -- Ted Ozolins (VE7TVO) Westbank, B. C. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL. ___ Linux-users mailing list - http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Subscribe/Unsubscribe info, Archives,and Digests are located at the above URL.
