[LUTE] Re: [Lutelist] Purcell on the lute
Erm, do you happen to play chess or just a proud Norwegian :) I have become interested in chess lately after 42 years of abstinence. Rainer Am 27.09.2020 um 19:30 schrieb magnus andersson: Also noteworthy are the arrangements of the (Daniel) Purcell pieces in the Poznan 7033 ms. Best, Magnus Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS> Den söndag, september 27, 2020, 2:26 em, skrev Rainer : Very nice. The Rondeau is also from Abdelazer. Which reminds me of the film "Pride and Prhudice". Of course, nobody would have played music by Purcell as dance music in 1813 (or 1797). Anyway many people praised the film music by Marianelli - pseudo romantic piano music which did not yet exists in 18213 (or 1797) The only really great music in the film is by Purcell. HAve I missed something? By the way, I really like the film. Films like this one will probably soon be forbidden by PC idiots... Rainer Am 27.09.2020 um 13:50 schrieb heiman.dan...@juno.com <mailto:heiman.dan...@juno.com>: > Rainer, Nigel North did a set of intabulations of Henry Purcell pieces at the beginning of his concert on 11-course d-minor lute.https://bit.ly/NorthConcert Daniel > > -- Original Message -- > From: Rainer mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>> > To: Lute net mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>>, lutelist mailto:lutel...@groundsanddivisions.info>> > Subject: [Lutelist] Purcell on the lute > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 09:34:51 +0200 > > Dear lute netters, > > I wonder if anybody has intabulated this for two Renaissance lutes (or one). > > https://youtu.be/UfwO_RRgRXE <https://youtu.be/UfwO_RRgRXE> > > Rainer > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
[LUTE] Re: [Lutelist] Purcell on the lute
Very nice. The Rondeau is also from Abdelazer. Which reminds me of the film "Pride and Prhudice". Of course, nobody would have played music by Purcell as dance music in 1813 (or 1797). Anyway many people praised the film music by Marianelli - pseudo romantic piano music which did not yet exists in 18213 (or 1797) The only really great music in the film is by Purcell. HAve I missed something? By the way, I really like the film. Films like this one will probably soon be forbidden by PC idiots... Rainer Am 27.09.2020 um 13:50 schrieb heiman.dan...@juno.com: Rainer, Nigel North did a set of intabulations of Henry Purcell pieces at the beginning of his concert on 11-course d-minor lute.https://bit.ly/NorthConcert Daniel -- Original Message ------ From: Rainer To: Lute net , lutelist Subject: [Lutelist] Purcell on the lute Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 09:34:51 +0200 Dear lute netters, I wonder if anybody has intabulated this for two Renaissance lutes (or one). https://youtu.be/UfwO_RRgRXE Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Purcell on the lute
Dear lute netters, I wonder if anybody has intabulated this for two Renaissance lutes (or one). https://youtu.be/UfwO_RRgRXE Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Peter Croton's email address
Dear lute netters, does anybody know Peter Croton's email address? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Switch to the new list?
Does anybody remember (Wayne? :)) when Wayne's server will be shut down? Isn't it time to migrate to the new list? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lautenband
In der Tat - Wenn man nach Lautengurt sucht. Wenn man nach Lautenband sucht, findet man das berühmte "Mit dem grünen Lautenbande" von Schubert :) Rainer Am 20.09.2020 um 10:07 schrieb Joachim Lüdtke: Dear Rainer, there are lute straps as the sand on the sea, very much ... As you are searching for a provider in your country, have a look on the website of lute builder Schossig. Best Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Lautenband Datum: 2020-09-20T09:42:13+0200 Von: "Rainer" An: "Lute net" Auf Deutsch, weil ich das nicht im Ausland kaufen will: Ich will doch noch mal versuchen mit einem Band zu spielen - Lauten kann man bekanntlich nicht halten. Spezielle Bänder für Lauten gibt es wohl nicht - wozu auch. Gitarrenbänder gibt es wie Sand am Meer (der wird wohl langsam knapp). Kann jemand ein Fabrikat empfehlen? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lautenband
Auf Deutsch, weil ich das nicht im Ausland kaufen will: Ich will doch noch mal versuchen mit einem Band zu spielen - Lauten kann man bekanntlich nicht halten. Spezielle Bänder für Lauten gibt es wohl nicht - wozu auch. Gitarrenbänder gibt es wie Sand am Meer (der wird wohl langsam knapp). Kann jemand ein Fabrikat empfehlen? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Pavana alla veniciana
Dear lute netters, the Tabualturbeilage 2018/4 contains a few pieces from Judenkunig's Underweisung. One of the pieces - the pvavana all Veniciana - looks very strange. Bars 15, 23, 31, 39 and 47 (attention: the barring in the Tabulaturbeilage is a mess) contain a minim(?) rest which does not make any musical sense. I think Judenkunig uses it to indicate that the previous note is dotted. Apparent he had no other means to indicate dotted rhythm) Indeed, the whole book does not contain any dotted rhythm symbols. Somewhat strange... Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem
Am 08.09.2020 um 17:55 schrieb howard posner: On Sep 8, 2020, at 3:18 AM, Rainer wrote: According to a source I cannot remember the Sonata lasted 55 minutes when played by Liszt. He wrote presque une heure - even slower. Playing everything as asked for by Beethoven makes 32 minutes. As far as I know there is not a single recording that lasts 32 minutes only. I am not really interested in Liszt's tempo and I am convinced that some modern players can play faster than Liszt. I am interested in other people's opinions regarding the metronome markings in those days. Some pieces by Czerny are ridiculously fast in modern interpretation. Some Pieces by Schumann are totally ruined unless played at half the speed. On the other hand Chopin#s etudes played at half the speed sound somewhat boring. I simply do not know... See for example https://youtu.be/7PwoFoZTTHU Sometimes his arguments are not really convincing nor are his music examples, but there is certainly some truth in it. Rainer PS Even Korstick is slower :) And a certain Alfred Brendel said "Das vorgeschriebene Tempo des ersten Satzes zumal ist von keinem Spieler, und sei es der Teufel persönlich, auf irgendeinem Flügel der Welt auch nur annähernd zu bewältigen." Liszt said something of the sort in a letter written 40 years after the performance Berlioz reviewed. For all we know, he hadn’t played it in years and didn’t recall accurately. Or he took the fast movements slower as time went on. Or he took the slow movement, or the sections that don’t have metronome markings, more slowly. And for all we know, Berlioz didn’t mean to say specifically that Liszt played at Beethoven’s indicated metronome markings, only that he didn’t play around with the tempo once he started. And even if he did, maybe Berlioz, sitting in a theater with the sheet music but without a metronome, couldn’t tell the difference between quarter note = 144 and quarter note =130. This all pretty much exemplifies the problems of discussing tempo in the pre-recording age. I haven’t found any source saying Lizst was unable to play the sonata at the indicated tempi. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Le Luth Doré
everything is fine. My provider treated the order confirmation as spam :( Rainer Am 08.09.2020 um 16:00 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, has anybody ordered something form Le Luth Doré ? I have placed an order and already paid via PayPal but not received an order confirmation. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Le Luth Doré
Dear lute netters, has anybody ordered something form Le Luth Doré ? I have placed an order and already paid via PayPal but not received an order confirmation. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem
According to a source I cannot remember the Sonata lasted 55 minutes when played by Liszt. This is much slower than some modern performances. Rainer Am 08.09.2020 um 01:09 schrieb howard posner: On Sep 7, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Rainer wrote: Even List could not play the Hammerklavier Sonate at Beethoven's metronome markings - if they are meant as they are today. Hector Berlioz seems to indicate otherwise in an 1836 review of a Liszt concert in the La Revue et Gazette musicale de Paris: "Liszt has explained the work in such a way that if the composer himself had returned from the grave, joy and pride would have swept over him. Not a note was left out, not one added (I followed the performance with the sheet music), not one alteration was made in the tempo that was not indicated in the text (….) It was the ideal performance of a work with the reputation of being unperformable. Liszt, in bringing back a work that was previously not understood has shown that he is a pianist of the future.” This quote is from "Early Performances of Beethoven’s ‘Hammerklavier’ Sonata op. 106 in France and England” by Marten Noorduin: https://www.ripm.org/cnc/?p=592 Here’s a different translation: "A new Oedipus, Liszt, has solved it, solved it in such a way that had the composer himself returned from the grave, a paroxysm of joy and pride would have swept over him. Not a note was left out, not one added . . . no inflection was effaced, no change of tempo permitted. Liszt, in thus making comprehensible a work not yet comprehended, has proved that he is the pianist of the future." I haven’t seen the original Berlioz article in French (and it wouldn’t do me much good if I did). The real problem with Beethoven’s metronome marks is that they were ignored in the early 20th century, and by time the early music movement got to Beethoven there was a performance tradition going back a few generations, and zillions of recordings establishing an accepted range of tempi. Some of them worked even though they were ridiculously wrong as a matter of performance practice: the Allegretto second movement of the Seventh Symphony played as if it were a slow movement comes to mind. If I’m not mistaken, the Hammerklavier was the only piano sonata Beethoven published with metronome marks. There are far more of them in the orchestral works. Roger Norrington, in his recordings of the Beethoven orchestral works, adhered to the metronome markings, and often offers explanations of them in his written notes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem
Dear lute netters, as most of you probably know there was and is some discussion about the metronome markings in the first half of the 19th century. Even List could not play the Hammerklavier Sonate at Beethoven's metronome markings - if they are meant as they are today. I wonder what others think about this problem. Rainer As an illustration see the incredible https://youtu.be/NmI_ALcEGUw To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Right Hand
Dear all, Depending on the pieces and their time of compositions or better to say depending on the number of courses ( 6,7,8,10,11,13) they are written for, there ist no need to use the little finger on the soundbord (10,11,13, course lutes ) or it is recomended to put the little Finger on the soundbord (6,7,8 course lutes) If you put the little Finger on the soundbord, you will not have the chance to play with the Ringfinger. Therefore the use of Thumb, Forefinger and Middlefinger is recomended. The Forefinger has to play the second and third course( as small "Harpeggio"). The Middlefinger plays the first one.Chords with more tones should be played with the Forefinger and Middlefinger and with the help of the thumb. In this way i learned it . Rainer Waldeck To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ringfinger
From Judenkunig's Utilis et compendiaria introductio (1510-20 (?), no year) Preterea admonendus es ut literas et characteres numeri quotquot ordinatim signis notarum supponuntur, singulas eorum cordas singulis digitis (si modo digitorum dextre numerum non excedunt) discretim aut si plures sunt quam quatuor, digitorumque numerum superant, simul uno ictu pollicis oberrando percucias pulsesque. Die einzelnen Chorsaiten der Buchstaben und Ziffern sollen mit je einem Finger angeschlagen werden, falls sie nicht etwa die Zahl der Finger der rechten Hand überschreiten. Sind es aber mehr als vier Chorsaiten und überschreiten die Zahl der Finger, sollen sie (alle) zugleich mit einem Daumenschlag gestreift werden. German translation by Hans Radke Anybody crazy enough to provide an English translation? Anyway, this clearly indirectly states that the third finger of the right hand was used. See Hans Radke Acta Musicologica, Vol. 52, Fasc. 2 (Jul. - Dec., 1980), pp. 134-147 Am 30.08.2020 um 21:10 schrieb Martin Shepherd: Le Roy (1568/74) explains it all... M On 30/08/2020 17:14, Leonard Williams wrote: Good question--I have a hard time getting my ring finger working well, especially switching between single-note runs and four-note chords. I can't separate it far enough from my pinky. How were chords of more than three notes played without ring finger in thumb-in play? Regards, Leonard Williams -Original Message- From: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de To: lute net ; Lute arc Sent: Sun, Aug 30, 2020 8:59 am Subject: [LUTE] Ringfinger Dear all, first of all I'd like to express my sincerest gratitude towards Wayne for creating this great forum! Unfortunately I became only a member a few years ago, but still I enjoyed much of the discussions here! I hope, that the list will continue also after Wayne's retirement! The actual reason for writing is this time about the use of the ringfinger of the right hand in 16th/early 17th century lute music. What do we know about it? When did lute players start to use it? It would be great to collect some sources, with your generous help! Also ideas for modern literature is appreciated! Have a nice sunday and enjoy lute playing Yuval To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Eijsertt
For a few concordances see Ward's famous A DOWLAND MISCELLANY appendix S (Ward loved appendices and footnotes that were longer then the text) pp. 138-139 Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Red notes in Eysert
In Eysert or the Linzer Lautenbuch in some pieces whole bars or groups of bars are in red - very strange. Perhaps we can find something in: Josef Klima, Das Lautenbuch des Michael Eysert, Norimbergensis (vor 1600): das "Linzer Lautenbuch" : Original im Oberösterreichischen Landesarchiv : Themenverzeichnis Wiener Lautenarchiv Publisher J. Klima, 1977 Unfortunately this is not available here at the university library nor at JSTOR: Rainer Am 24.08.2020 um 01:50 schrieb Leonard Williams: In Mudarra's third book of Tres Libros there are a couple of pieces where he picks out the vocal line with apostrophes in the tablature. Could the Eysert red notes be similar in intent? (Would the player be singing, or might the singer be a tab reader?) Leonard Williams -Original Message- From: Jussi-Pekka Lajunen To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2020 6:04 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Red notes in Eysert Maybe they are used to show where the intabulation does not follow the original vocal model? The chords in those parts seem to differ from the harmony of the original pieces. Sarge Gerbode kirjoitti 23.8.2020 klo 20.22: > After putting out the first 50 pages of the Eysert Lute Book, I > realize that I have ignored the red notes, figuring that they were > faded ink or a meaningless idiosyncrasy of the scribe. But now I am > wondering if they do, in fact, actually mean something. fronimo can do > red notes, so... Anybody have any thoughts about this? > > --Sarge To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The lute list is retiring soon
Am 22.08.2020 um 21:04 schrieb Wayne: Hi - I have been running this lute mail list since 1998, and it has been interesting and fun. I am sure I joined the list in 1995 or 1996. Your are getting old:) I am probably one of the oldest members on the list - regarding membership, not my age :) Arto must have joined before me, Caroline Usher used to be very active and the older members will remember those wonderful flame wars between Arthur Ness and a certain person whose name I will not tell you - he has died 1 or 2 years ago. I think he was the only member that was expelled from the list. 20 years ago the was much higher traffic but loosing the list would be horrible. By the way, Wayne, what will become of the updates for tab. Regarding the mailing list we might have a simple free solution. The newsgroup rec.music.early still exists and there is almost no traffic. There are free newsgroup servers with mild limitations. For example nntp.aioe.org does not allow more than 40 [forty] postings per day from the same IP address. This should be enough for everybody - even Tristan :) I have posted a test message a few minutes ago and it appeared a few seconds later. Configuring a mail client for newsgroups is very easy and takes a few seconds. Of course, non-lute readers of rec.music.early might complain. However, the last postings were: Download Solution Manual Fundamentals of Gas Dynamics (apparently the wrong newsgroup) 4 postings "Francesco da Milano: Ness 28 = Chiesa number?" this would fit our list 1 posting regarding recorders. 1 test posting by a certain Rainer Since apparently there are less than 3 [three] postings per month I don't think capturing the list would cause severe problems. For people who have no experience with newsgroups: You do not have to register. They are not monitored (depending on server and list) Attachments are not allowed (at least not on this list) What do the "expert" think? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Julian Brean has died
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-53777949 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: e vs c
A horrible example of almost indistinguishable "c"s and "e"s is Mertel - and Rude. There is a different "solution" for this problem: an "e" that looks like an epsilon. Rainer Am 04.08.2020 um 08:34 schrieb Martin Shepherd: The "r" is in most English lute MSS and in all the lute song prints as well. In fact it's not an "r" at all, just another way of writing "c". My biggest readability complaint is writing the letters on the lines rather than between them - a habit which seems to have become quite common with some modern editors of lute music. And just to open up a few more worms, I find French tablature very convenient because (although I read all kinds of tab fluently) I can write in fingerings, which can get very confusing in Italian tab. M To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Le Roy for guitar
https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3625 https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3627 https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3629 https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3631 https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3633 Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Terzi and the viola bastarda
http://vdgs.org.uk/journal/Vol-08.pdf Rainer Am 02.07.2020 um 23:11 schrieb Sean Smith: Dear all, I have a question regarding the overlap in repertoire between the viola bastarda and Terzi. In his second book (1599) he includes Chi farà fede [Striggio] with the note, "... accommodato à modo di Viola bastarda per suonar in Concerto con Liutto grande". I take it to mean that it's 'in the style of' the v.b. and not actually for the v.b. but I was wondering if there were viols with the necessary 7th string a 4th below #6 at the time suitable for this rep. Any thoughts on this? Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lanturulu
Dear collected wisdom, I'm looking for the italian words of the song "Lanturulú". It has been sung by burgundian peasants and winemakers when they made a rebellion in february 1630 in Dijon against the tax increase and reduction of their privileges decreeded by king Louis XIII. But the melody must have been known before in Italy, because Buonamente wrote in 1626 already a Sonata for 2 Violins and BC using this song. In the ms. Barb.Lat. 4177 (Vatican, Rome) there is only one italian verse with alfabeto chords. It seems that it was a very popular satirical song against the french king, because it has been printed many times (Sanz, Corbetta, Carbonchi and others). Il puovero Re di francia quando era picciolino come [via] la lancia e da[n]a in un Quarino (?) adesso [è] Re le grande non Laca[r]e piu. Lanturlúru, etc. The words/letters in brackets are hard to read in the ms. and my interpretation is probably wrong. Does by chance anyone know another source for the italian words? Rainer -- __ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laute - periodical
Dear Monica, Am 09.06.2020 um 16:24 schrieb Monica Hall: Does anyone have any knowledge of a periodical called Laute published in Stuttgart. I am looking for an article in vol. xi, 2013. Which article do you need? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: JSTOR
I have access to JSTOR form the university library. However, the universities are closed. Now I needed a short article (10 or 15 pages) in order to help John Robinson. This is what I did with my 100 articles free account: * Download every page. * Create a pdf file from the tiff files with a freeware tool * Add text to the pdf file with a freeware pdf viewer that has an OCR feature. Better than nothing :) Rainer Am 08.05.2020 um 22:07 schrieb G. C.: Jstor is open until 30th of June for 100 articles per month with simple registration. Reading online only. G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Off topic to German members
Stürmisch ist es bei uns im Norden erst, wenn die Schafe keine Locken mehr haben. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Ballard 1612
https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3446 Click under "Télécharger" Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon Website
Becoming a mandora enthusiast without having a mandora can only happen, if first of all you like the music which has been written for this instrument. Its standard tuning is equal to modern guitar tuning. There have been mandoras tuned in E (like guitar) or one note lower in D. So you can play this music directly from the tab on a modern guitar, or, as you mentioned, on a Wandervogel lute. (But a lot of the original repertoire is asking for another tuning where the lowest course is tuned up a third (in E= e' - h - g - d - A - G). The arrangements of the Mandora Website are all adapted for standard tuning. Of course playing this music on guitar or Wandervogel lute sounds - what else - like guitar or Wandervogel lute, but it can give you an impression of what the music itself sounds like - and if you like it. If you would like to hear how this music sounds played on mandora please listen to what Rod Blocksidge offers on his vimeo channel (link on www.mandora.de/audio). Coming close to the mandora sound by using modern guitar or a Wandervogel lute will be difficult because of their much higher string tension. You can try to replace your strings by some lute strings with less tension, but I'm not sure if this will be satisfying and makes a good sound. __ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 Am 24.01.2020 um 14:15 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: Can I become a Mandora enthusiast by using a Wandervogel lute?... What's the stringing choice to come close to Mandora sound? On 24.01.20 14:16, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Well done Rainer, - let's hope this produces even more interest in this relatively neglected but, once, popular little family of instruments. regards Martyn On Friday, 24 January 2020, 13:06:47 GMT, Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt wrote: Hi all, I would like to inform you that I have setup a new website dedicated to the Gallichon/Mandora, where some information can be found, and where some music for solo mandora, songs with mandora or chamber music with mandora is already integrated and downloadable for free. You can find links to libraries which offer their digitized manuscripts with mandora music online. The website is in german and english language, and it's still a work in progress. So from time to time I will put in some more music (or audio files). Of course other mandora-enthusiast are invited to participate as well. The music is mostly unknown and taken from different mss. You can visit this page at: [1]www.gallichon. de or [2]www.mandora.org -- __ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: [3]www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 -- References 1. [1]http://www.gallichon/ 2. [2]http://www.mandora.org/ 3. [3]http://www.seicentomusic.de/ To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.gallichon/ 2. http://www.mandora.org/ 3. http://www.seicentomusic.de/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon Website
Hi all, I would like to inform you that I have setup a new website dedicated to the Gallichon/Mandora, where some information can be found, and where some music for solo mandora, songs with mandora or chamber music with mandora is already integrated and downloadable for free. You can find links to libraries which offer their digitized manuscripts with mandora music online. The website is in german and english language, and it's still a work in progress. So from time to time I will put in some more music (or audio files). Of course other mandora-enthusiast are invited to participate as well. The music is mostly unknown and taken from different mss. You can visit this page at: [1]www.gallichon. de or [2]www.mandora.org -- __ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: [3]www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 -- References 1. http://www.gallichon/ 2. http://www.mandora.org/ 3. http://www.seicentomusic.de/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fuenllana "author. D."
"D" = Difficult "F" = Easy Rainer Am 15.01.2020 um 16:23 schrieb Mumin Lute: Dear collective wisdom, This could be ridiculously silly question because of my lack of some very basic knowledge, but it would be very much appreciated if anyone could direct me to the right answer... In Fuenllana's Orphenica Lyra, what does " D " or "F" in the heading of the piece stand for? It first appears on fol.17v as "Fantasia del author. .D.", capitalized and coloured in red. The following pieces apparently are fantasia by the author himself, the explanatory title on the top of the page says "Fantasia a quattro, Fuenllana." without any other attributions, so I guess the letter is not the initial of a composer. "F" is another mysterious letter on the heading..e.g. "Motete a quatro de Gombert. .F." on fol.50v... . I was inclined to think F is for Fuenllana but it obviously is not .. Regards, Tomoko . -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
For a better digital version see: http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC09162120 Rainer Am 10.01.2020 um 14:11 schrieb Stewart McCoy: Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
https://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg51564.html Rainer Am 10.01.2020 um 11:32 schrieb Stewart McCoy: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Android OS software
Am 05.01.2020 um 21:34 schrieb DANIEL SHOSKES: Well, the Boox max 3 is “only” 761 Euro so I guess that’s an improvement? Fast geschenkt :) Rainer On Jan 5, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Rainer wrote: Am 05.01.2020 um 20:51 schrieb Daniel Shoskes: This is the year I’ve committed to reducing paper clutter throughout the house so I’ve finally bought a dedicated tablet for music storage and performance. I got a 13.3 inch E ink display which is friendly to my aging eyes and can fit a lot of music on 1 page. It is however the first device I have owned that runs Android (9.0) rather than iOS. Settled on MobileSheetsPro for sheet music management which has a dedicated E ink version (but no Mac or iOS equivalent). 13.3 inch e-ink? Many years ago there was an A4 e-ink device by Sony. Only 1.100 Euro :( What device are you talking about? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Android OS software
Am 05.01.2020 um 20:51 schrieb Daniel Shoskes: This is the year I’ve committed to reducing paper clutter throughout the house so I’ve finally bought a dedicated tablet for music storage and performance. I got a 13.3 inch E ink display which is friendly to my aging eyes and can fit a lot of music on 1 page. It is however the first device I have owned that runs Android (9.0) rather than iOS. Settled on MobileSheetsPro for sheet music management which has a dedicated E ink version (but no Mac or iOS equivalent). 13.3 inch e-ink? Many years ago there was an A4 e-ink device by Sony. Only 1.100 Euro :( What device are you talking about? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Dlugoraj
The digital facsimile of so-called Dlugoraj (II.6.15) lute book was announced ages ago. Now a miracle has happened: https://sachsen.digital/werkansicht/dlf/363424/1/ Rainer PS: For the few who don't speak German: Use the third download option To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: conserto vago
Not really good, but better than imslp(?) http://www.bibliotecamusica.it/cmbm/viewschedatwbca.asp?path=/cmbm/images/ripro/gaspari/_V/V156/ Happy new year, Rainer Am 01.01.2020 um 13:39 schrieb Lex van Sante: Dear collective wisdom, I am trying to decipher the avvertimenti belonging to the Conserto Vago, Roma 1645 but my copy found on IMSLP is very hard to read. Does anyone have, or know of, a good quality copy or a link I can use? I have investigated the site of the biblioteca della musica di Bologna where the original is kept but they do not seem to have a copy service available. Cheers and all the best for 2020! Lex van Sante -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Byrd: Earl of Ocfords march
tenor viol The Earl of Oxford's March Dd.5.21 1v ??? cittern, consort part The Earl of Oxford's March Otley 3v/1 [illegible] march luteThe Earl of Oxford's March Mynshall 7r/3 my lorde of Oxfordes Marche / [index:] my lord of oxfords marc luteThe Earl of Oxford's March 2764(2) 7v/2-8r/1 No Title luteThe Earl of Oxford's March 408/295/3 a march recorderThe Earl of Oxford's March Dd.5.21 10v ??? keyboardByrd, William The Earl of Oxford's March Nevell 13v The marche before: the battell: Brookes, No. 1343a lute, consort part The Earl of Oxford's March Dd.3.18 20r/2 The March / The Erle of Oxforde[s] Marche / [index:] E of Oxf. March. cittern The Earl of Oxford's March Dd.4.23 20r/2 Mask / T. R keyboardByrd, William The Earl of Oxford's March 5609 241-244 The Marche before the Battle / The Battle Brookes, No. 1343a keyboardByrd, William The Earl of Oxford's March Rogers 31r/2[inv] No TitleFragment, Brookes, No. 1343a keyboardByrd, William The Earl of Oxford's March FWVB 371/2-373/1 The Earl of Oxfords Marche / William Byrd. Brookes, No. 1343a luteThe Earl of Oxford's March Thysius 373v/1 La Marche. mixed consort The Earl of Oxford's March Morley 1599 No. 14 My Lord of Oxenfords maske Rainer Am 21.12.2019 um 07:00 schrieb Mikael Forsberg: Hi I am looking for lute tabs for this nice piece? Any ideas? Best regards Mikael -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Vous Usurpe
Dear lute netters, does anybody know what happened to "Vous Usurpe" on page 23 of the music supplement to Lute News 99? The piece looks like a failed automatic conversion form Italian to French tablature. The music sounds more like Boulez than Marco Dall' Aquila :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Amusing pic
Saint Cecilia and the Angel by Carlo Saraceni See for example https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Carlo_Saraceni_-_Saint_Cecilia_and_the_Angel_-_WGA20829.jpg and many others This one is funny: https://www.123rf.com/photo_30094094_cambodia-circa-1985-a-stamp-printed-in-cambodia-shows-st-cecilia-and-the-angel-painting-by-carlo-sar.html Rainer Am 19.12.2019 um 15:41 schrieb Martyn Hodgson: [1]https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg__;!bvwDki4T53I!kh_zZmwalGl8C3drXCQQN46_ZhOqtMqKR40WuYa2hQwAmP62usf87WxFunyHs60$ Recently an amusing pic was sent round (I can't remember who by - sorry) - link above. Can someone kindly tell me the location of the picture, the artist and whether there's an available representation online without the humorous text added. regards and Happy Xmas to all; Martyn -- References 1. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://i.redd.it/qtufsdsfwz241.jpg__;!bvwDki4T53I!kh_zZmwalGl8C3drXCQQN46_ZhOqtMqKR40WuYa2hQwAmP62usf87WxFunyHs60$ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Physics and music and goofy librarians
That should be Alfred Einstein. The title and the publication date are not correct, either. See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Einstein The English WIKI entry is much shorter. Rainer PS On YouTube you will find a chess game between Albert Einstein and Oppenheimer. Apparently Einstein was a much stronger player than Oppenheimer :) Am 10.12.2019 um 03:06 schrieb Alain Veylit: There is an interesting mistake on that Stanford library page - see item 57. Or perhaps, the year 1905 was particularly spectacular in some parallel universe? I thought Albert played the violin, not the viola ... https://library.stanford.edu/collections/ben-schmidt-collection-music-lute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: PL-Kj 40267
Am 02.12.2019 um 22:14 schrieb s.wa...@ntlworld.com: How do you see DJVU files? Guggst Du hier: https://windjview.sourceforge.io Rainer Sent from my Huawei phone Original Message Subject: [LUTE] Re: PL-Kj 40267 From: Rainer To: lute list CC: Dieses hier? https://jbc.bj.uj.edu.pl/publication/308364/content Rainer Am 02.12.2019 um 13:43 schrieb Andreas Schlegel: > Dear collected wisdom > > Has somebody a digitalisation of this tablature for Hamburger Cithrinchen and is willing to share it? > I’m looking for it because of some concordances. > > Thanks a lot! > > Andreas > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: PL-Kj 40267
Dieses hier? https://jbc.bj.uj.edu.pl/publication/308364/content Rainer Am 02.12.2019 um 13:43 schrieb Andreas Schlegel: Dear collected wisdom Has somebody a digitalisation of this tablature for Hamburger Cithrinchen and is willing to share it? I’m looking for it because of some concordances. Thanks a lot! Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Mandora Website
Dear Lute list, since a couple of days the Mandora-Website is online and I've put some information there. It's far away from beeing complete but step by step I try to fill it with more information, articles, adresses. Maybe that soon I'll change the structure a bit, but nothing really basic. The download page includes now 2 anonymous partitas from the ms. Graz 1869 and Brno A.27.750. Much more will follow soon. If you have material to share too don't hesitate to contact me. --- - There is a new email-adress concerning the mandora and its webpage: [1]i...@gallichon.de Please use this one for your communication! --- --- There is a second web-adress too, which automatically forewards you on the gallichon page: [2]www.mandora.org. You can use both adresses. Perhaps you can help me to collect more information. Do you know: Who is playing Mandora/Gallichon? Which lutemaker builds/offers mandoras/gallichons? All the best Rainer -- References 1. mailto:i...@gallichon.de 2. http://www.mandora.org/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A comedy of errors
Dear lute netters, Luys Milan is not known to have composed chromatic fantasias. However, in his Fantasia 27 (Maestro, K3r-K5r/1) the sequence 34543 (on the same string) appears 4 (four) times. See bars 93, 96, 123, and 127. This is plain nonsense but apparently Milan hasn't noticed. These errors are not mentioned in the errata list at the end of the book. I have no explanation how this could happen. Rainer PS in the complete Maestro on the Fronimo group page the errors are tacitly corrected but not mentioned either. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Dear Martyn (and others), thanks a lot for your interest. I'm still busy with the website itself and I haven't opened a dedicated e-mail yet. But that's possible. I'll let you know about when it's done. Until then, if you would like to contribute, you can use my email seicentomu...@arcor.de. That's the one I have a look on at least once a day. I'm in contact with Dieter Kirsch who is going to contribute some of his articles. I will ask Pietro Posser as well if he agrees in the publication of his articles (already translated into english!) on the gallichon website. I will concentrate mainly on two instruments: the "short" mandora in D or E (70-75cm string lenght) ande the gallichon in A with its longer string lenght. There will be place for other instruments of the same family like the italian Colascione and Mandola too, but i'm not very familiar with them. So if there is someone out there who already knows a lot about, don't hesitat to contact me. I once tried one of the duets Mandora and Clavicembalo by Signor Kneferle. I played it together with Hammerflügel, which makes a wonderful sound and works quite well with the mandora. Unfortunately I couldn't go any further because the Hammerflügel-player was a bit ignorant, and music written by other people than C.Ph.E Bach or Haydn or Beethoven was not really worth it to be played by him. A shame! I had to transpose the harpsichord part, so that at least we could play in the same key. While writing this I have the idea of making mp3-files of the harpsichord parts (already transposed to a key which fits well with the mandora), and put them in the download area of the website, of course together with the mandora part. Same might be possible for other duets. I have already tried some of the Zinck-songs as well, and some of them seem to be really good. The problem with this songs is, that most of the handwritten words are completely unreadable to me, and to judge about a song without its words is nonsense. But a "translation" of these songs into readable german is already at work - and will be available on the website, as soon as it is finished. Rainer By the way: there is a second webadress now www.mandora.org. From there you will be redirected on to www.gallichon.de -- __ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
The italian instruments might be a good idea, especially the "big" Presbler mandola. Thanks for the pictures. First of all I wait to see what happens now.... Best Rainer __ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 Am 21.11.2019 um 19:46 schrieb Braig, Eugene: I don't know if they're on your radar, but will the Italian relatives that are often referred to as "mandola" or similar be included? See, e.g., this paired 1790s mandolino and mandola by Presbler held by New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art. Best, E Eugene C. Braig IV Artistic Director Phone: 614-561-9204 e-mail: eug...@columbusguitarsociety.org The Columbus Guitar Society Capital University, Conservatory of Music 1 College & Main Columbus, OH 43209 USA http://columbusguitarsociety.org/ -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website Dear Lute-List, I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallichon. This might be a place for general information about the instrument(s), its history, where it has been played, composers, and, and, and.but also information about where to find a player, a lutemaker, and last but not least a download page for lots of pieces. Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music: don't be afraid! I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring menuets there. Amongst all the manuscripts which I have (quite a lot, in copy of course) I've found many interesting pieces, technically not to much demanding, often with nice melodies, and sometimes music of high quality in baroque or gallant style. During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces and suites, and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably other mandora players did the same. So why not putting together the whole mandora wisdom and repertoire and collect it in the web, downloadable for free and open to all. That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit. Therefore I would like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I know there are some) to participate to this idea, and to contribute whatever might be of interest. You can have a look to this very basic website with just an index-page, a completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the impressum (which is obligatory in Germany). The web adress is: www.gallichon.de But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see which themes I have integrated until now. But that's just work in progress, and to be filled with real information soon. If you have any suggestion about what else should be there, if you have any material to share, don't hesitate to contact me. The website shall be in english and german. As you certainly have seen I'm not a native speaker. Any help in transforming my poor english into something closer to good english is welcome. Let's try it. Rainer -- ______ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website
Dear Lute-List, I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallichon. This might be a place for general information about the instrument(s), its history, where it has been played, composers, and, and, and.but also information about where to find a player, a lutemaker, and last but not least a download page for lots of pieces. Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music: don't be afraid! I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring menuets there. Amongst all the manuscripts which I have (quite a lot, in copy of course) I've found many interesting pieces, technically not to much demanding, often with nice melodies, and sometimes music of high quality in baroque or gallant style. During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces and suites, and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably other mandora players did the same. So why not putting together the whole mandora wisdom and repertoire and collect it in the web, downloadable for free and open to all. That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit. Therefore I would like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I know there are some) to participate to this idea, and to contribute whatever might be of interest. You can have a look to this very basic website with just an index-page, a completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the impressum (which is obligatory in Germany). The web adress is: www.gallichon.de But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see which themes I have integrated until now. But that's just work in progress, and to be filled with real information soon. If you have any suggestion about what else should be there, if you have any material to share, don't hesitate to contact me. The website shall be in english and german. As you certainly have seen I'm not a native speaker. Any help in transforming my poor english into something closer to good english is welcome. Let's try it. Rainer -- __ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan et Saint-Saëns
Am 07.01.2019 um 22:25 schrieb Arthur Ness: Heavens!!! Now, who was the other guy (ca. 1900, French as I recall) who arranged lute music for concert grand piano? It looked like Liszt on the open page. Perhaps François-Auguste Gevaert (1828-1908), the Belgian composer and director of the Paris opera. In the preface to Morphy's famous book he wrote: Un des plus anciens conservateurs, M. Richard, grand amateur de chant et de théâtre, m'avait pris en armitié et me signalait les raretés musicales de ce riche dépôt. C'est ainsi que le Libro de Vihuela de Don Luis Milan m'était tombé sous la main, deux ou trois mois avant l'arrivée du comte Morphy à Paris. Séduit, dès le premier coup d'oeil, par les mélodies des romances viejos et des villancicos, notées sur la portée, je m'étaís mis patiemment à traduire aussi dans notre usuelle écriture musicale les accompagnements de luth, notés en tablature, de quelques-unes de ces cantilènes, ainsi qu'une couple de pavanes et de fantasias. Rainer PS Here is another early transcription of a piece by Milan by the Spanish composer and musicologist Manuel Manrique de Lara: https://www.europeana.eu/portal/sk/record/2022717/bnesearch_detalle_bdh159350.html?l[r]=5[t]=14 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Arcadelt
Should be "nous voyons que les hommes". According to Brown there are two intabulations for guitar - a bit thin for the lute. Rainer Am 05.11.2019 um 23:42 schrieb theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu: Lutetopia: Does anyone know if there is an in tabulation of the Arcadelt chanson "nous voyons ques les hommes"? (It is a charming little tune). Thanks trj -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A strange "error" in Maestro
Dear lute netters, In some cases Milan seems to have sacrificed music for playability: Fantasia 18, bar 81 - compare bars 73-75, 78-80 and others Fantasia 19, bar 129 - Echoes bar 126 Fantasia 20, bar 49 - compare bar 44 I don't think these are errors. However, I also believe that this sounds ridiculous. Any ideas? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] LSA facsimile links
Dear lute netters, 7 (seven) weeks ago I told the LSA about incorrect links to facsimiles on the Internet. Apparently nothing has been changed :( Most impressive... Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: looking for cittern book Dd.4.23
I have not "made" the index. I have generated it from my database with a program ages ago. I can send an updated version. Unfortunately I am not aware of any digital facsimile except the one available form the LSA. If you are a member of the LSA you can download it. However, it is nor really good. Rainer On 14.09.2019 14:24, Andre Nieuwlaat wrote: Hello all, I have recently been studying the wonderfully detailed index, made by Rainer aus dem Spring, to the cittern book Dd.4.23 in Cambrdge. The concordances to this source are quite intriguing, and for this reason I would very much like to see a facsimile of Dd.4.23. So far, I have not been able to find one. I hope that someone in this group will be able to help me out. André Nieuwlaat -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The Lord my careful Shepherd is
On 08.09.2019 03:05, howard posner wrote: On Sep 7, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: Yes, the fact that it may have been written in at a later day was obvious and I was surprised you overlooked the fact. I'm just wondering why you mentioned this to the list. For the same reason Rainer often mentions things to the list: to increase the body of knowledge available to the lute world, enlarging the big picture, sometimes one pixel at a time. Exactly this was my intention. As far as I know nobody - not even Ward - has published a paper about the Euing MS. He didn’t overlook anything. I lack Rainer’s gift for detail, This is no gift. It is HARD work :) but I am intrigued at the thought that a collection of music from around 1600 may still have been in use 80 or 90 years later, or that someone 80 or 90 years later was in desperate need of scratch paper to write down Psalm 23. Don't forget that the Euing MS contains a second part - missing in Sarge's on-line files - that includes instructions for realising figured bass on the Theorbo. This part was copied several decades after the first part that contains lute music in old tuning. The psalm may be contemporary to this part of the music. I have a paper copy of the whole MS but never studied the second part. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The Lord my careful Shepherd is
On 07.09.2019 13:54, Ron Andrico wrote: Rainer, you wrote that you were interested in using the inclusion of the psalm text to help date the ms. Yes, the fact that it may have been written in at a later day was obvious and I was surprised you overlooked the fact. I'm just wondering why you mentioned this to the list. Apparently you haven't read my mail before you replied. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The Lord my careful Shepherd is
On 06.09.2019 23:26, Ron Andrico wrote: Rainer, the text could very well have been copied into the ms at a later date. I have no idea what you want to tell us. The lute music was copied around 1600. The text was almost certainly copied in or after 1679. This is so obvious that I have not mentioned it. Rainer RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Rainer Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 5:37 PM To: Lute net Subject: [LUTE] The Lord my careful Shepherd is Dear lute netters, some of you may know that the Euing lute manuscript contains texts written upside-down on some pages. On the bottom of folio 41r which contains Holborne's Posthuma pavan there is a relatively long text written in a very small hand upside-down. I have managed to identify the text - in the hope it may help to date the manuscript. It is a translation of the famous 23. psalm - know from dozens of Westerns and even science fiction films. "Unfortunately" this version is drawn from a book published in 1679 - much later than the lute music. See The Psalms of David-, by John Patrick, D.D. Preacher to the Charter House, London:—London 1679. In HISTORY OF THE Scottish Metrical Psalms; WITH AN ACCOUNT OF THE PARAPHRASES AND HYMNS, AND OF THE MUSIC OF THE OLD PSALTER. by J. W. MACMEEKEN, Glasgow, 1872 there is an appendix with 42 [sic!] versions of the 23. psalm and this version appears only once. Therefore I have little doubts rewarding its origin. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] The Lord my careful Shepherd is
Dear lute netters, some of you may know that the Euing lute manuscript contains texts written upside-down on some pages. On the bottom of folio 41r which contains Holborne's Posthuma pavan there is a relatively long text written in a very small hand upside-down. I have managed to identify the text - in the hope it may help to date the manuscript. It is a translation of the famous 23. psalm - know from dozens of Westerns and even science fiction films. "Unfortunately" this version is drawn from a book published in 1679 - much later than the lute music. See The Psalms of David-, by John Patrick, D.D. Preacher to the Charter House, London:—London 1679. In HISTORY OF THE Scottish Metrical Psalms; WITH AN ACCOUNT OF THE PARAPHRASES AND HYMNS, AND OF THE MUSIC OF THE OLD PSALTER. by J. W. MACMEEKEN, Glasgow, 1872 there is an appendix with 42 [sic!] versions of the 23. psalm and this version appears only once. Therefore I have little doubts rewarding its origin. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Herwarth 266 f 64
On 29.08.2019 18:47, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. wrote: Many thanks to all of you who provided the info I needed, and promptly! I should have joined this list a long time ago! Sometimes I think I should have left this list a long time ago :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Herwarth 266 f 64
On 28.08.2019 21:26, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. wrote: I have a (mostly) nice copy of Herwarth 266 that I have been working from, but f. 64r has what looks like about 3/4" missing from its left margin. Has anyone got a copy of this page where we can see what's along the left margin, or do I have to guess? What a shame. Looks like the colour images made by the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek are missing the left margin here (and in other pages). I have a XEROX copy showing more I'll scan it for you. Rainer PS The BSB still has a b copy online made from an old film which seems to be OK: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0003/bsb00031681/images/index.html?fip=193.174.98.30=00031681=1 Note: Press download and then switch to English To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dd.5.20
On 25.08.2019 19:37, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Unfortunately not, so far, Stewart... Le 25/08/2019 à 19:29, Stewart McCoy a écrit : The book was to have been published posthumously, but I don't know if it ever was. Which book? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dead links on LSA facsimile page
On 25.08.2019 18:26, Nancy Carlin wrote: I have found several broken links myself and we are currently looking for a volunteer lute musicologist to take on the job of fixing the links and adding additional sources to our library. ??? Fixing the links has nothing to do with musicology. Basic knowledge of HTML and Google would help - I guess. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dd.5.20
On 25.08.2019 13:39, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Lyle’s mistake obviously! I thought so :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Dead links on LSA facsimile page
Dear lute netters, I have used a tool to validate the links on the LSA facsimile links page. Can anybody tell me to whom I should an EXCEL sheet with the invalid URLs? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Dd.5.20
Dear lute netters, I wonder if anybody out there is familiar with the Cambridge consort books and may be able to help me. I have downloaded a digital copy of Dd.5.20/21 (bound together) from the LSA web site. Now I am comparing the books with entries in my Holborne edition and Nordstrom's article published in the LSA journal in 1972. Something is decidedly wrong here: According to Nordstom (page 87 of his article) Holborne's Farewell appears in Dd.5.20 on f. 5r. In my digital copy it appears on folio 6r. My first thought was that the MS might have two different foliations-one of them not visible in the poor digital copy. However: According to Nordstrom (page 82) Callinoe appears in Dd.5.20 on folios 3, 5 and 6, which matches the foliation in my digital copy. Any idea anybody? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Solo e pensoso i piú deserti campi
Dear lute netters, not related to the lute: In this famous madrigal by Marenzio the Canto starts with an ascending chromatic scale of 15 [sic!] notes. I wonder if anybody knows of anything comparable composed before 1599. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: new 7c lute for sale
Of course, I immediately checked which piece you are playing here : It is No. 27b in my edition, Dd.2.11, f. 89r I noticed that you ignore almost all those "ornaments" in this pieces (in my edition I have omitted all "ornaments"). Today I would probably include them with an appropriate comment. I still have no idea what they really are. Rainer On 18.08.2019 10:36, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi All, I have a new 7c lute for sale. To see and hear it: www.luteshop.co.uk/forsale Best wishes to All, Martin --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Original composers of some songs
On 12.08.2019 20:04, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. wrote: Don't use HTML! --- I am busy working on the next 50 pieces from the Herwarth MS, trying to figure out who composed what. I assume you are talking about 266, right? There are several "Herwarth manuscripts". Anyway, have a look at Arthur's dissertation: The Herwarth Lute Manuscripts at the Bavarian State Library, Munich (Part 1) - A bibliographical study with Emphasis on the Works of Marco dall'Aquila and Melchior Newsidler by Arthur J.Ness, February 1984 (PhD Dissertation, New York University) The Herwarth Lute Manuscripts at the Bavarian State Library, Munich (Part 2) - A bibliographical study with Emphasis on the Works of Marco dall'Aquila and Melchior Newsidler by Arthur J.Ness, February 1984 (PhD Dissertation, New York University) It is available at the LSA web pages (possibly to members only) and the text is searchable (probably run through some OCR Software). Rainer PS If you don't have (access to) the dissertation ask me - or Arthur :) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Belle, qui tiens ma vie
This doesn't help you but may be intersting: The piece already appears (decades before Arbeau) in the organ tablature book of Jan von Lublin under the title "Zaklolam szÿa tharnem" (??). It also appears in the so-called "Fitzwilliam Virginal Book" as "Corranto." on page 327 set by Byrd. This version also appears in the Hirsch Lute Book f. 10v and in the Kassel lute book (discussed a few day ago) f. 4r "Courante" Rainer On 10.08.2019 12:21, Jörg Hilbert wrote: Dear all, does anybody know any lute version of »Belle qui tiens ma vie « (Thinot Arbeau)? Thanks Jörg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH folk style
On 02.08.2019 10:50, Matthew Daillie wrote: There are passages in pieces by Vallet where he indicates a thumb-index alternation in diminutions on the 4th to 6th courses of the lute but this does not mean that he was using thumb-in (since he seems to specifically to deride the use of this in his introduction). There are no indications for the use of the middle finger in Ballard's two books of lute tablature. His style is much more based on 'accords brisés' so the question of what right-hand fingerings to use for diminutions is less prevalent. Ballard has no ornaments, no left hand fingering, no double dots, no slurs, ... Ballard was printed with moveably types, Vallet was engraved. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: "Equal" temoerament
You don't understand. He was lucky that the continued fraction expansion of 2^(1/12) started with such "simple" fractions. Rainer On 28.07.2019 16:53, Ron Andrico wrote: Galilei arrived at the best approximation with the information and tools available to him at the time. No other system could be more appropriate to the (evolving) music of his time. And he had a grasp of the physical realities of the lute, as well as taste. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Rainer Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2019 2:15 PM To: Lute net Subject: [LUTE] "Equal" temoerament By the way, a few minutes ago I calculated the first terms of the continued fraction expansion of the twelfth root of 2 (which is infinite and non-periodic-the continued fraction and the decimal fraction :)). This gives in a precisely defined meaning the "best" approximations of 2^(1/12) in rational numbers. The first approximations are: 1 not very useful for tuning :) 17/16 quite good 18/17 Much better - Galilei was lucky here 89/84 Too complicated already A stack of 12 semitones at 18/17 gives an octave of 1.985559952 Best wishes, Rainer PS As far as I know the first who clearly states that the twelfth root of two should be used was Hendrik Stevin in his "Van de Spiegheling der Singconst" written before 1608 but not published until 1894. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] "Equal" temoerament
By the way, a few minutes ago I calculated the first terms of the continued fraction expansion of the twelfth root of 2 (which is infinite and non-periodic-the continued fraction and the decimal fraction :)). This gives in a precisely defined meaning the "best" approximations of 2^(1/12) in rational numbers. The first approximations are: 1 not very useful for tuning :) 17/16 quite good 18/17 Much better - Galilei was lucky here 89/84 Too complicated already A stack of 12 semitones at 18/17 gives an octave of 1.985559952 Best wishes, Rainer PS As far as I know the first who clearly states that the twelfth root of two should be used was Hendrik Stevin in his "Van de Spiegheling der Singconst" written before 1608 but not published until 1894. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
A cent is 1200 times the logarithm to base 2 of a real number. And the reason for those "complicated numbers" is the rather elementary fact that log(3)/log(2) is irrational. By the Gelfond-Schneider theorem it is even transcendental, but this a very deep celebrated theorem proved in 1934 independently by Aleksandr Gelfond and Theodor Schneider. Rainer On 28.07.2019 10:43, Matthew Daillie wrote: That is not true Rainer, they simply say that the use of cents is a relatively modern one and anachronistic for dealing with Renaissance music. It is concomitant with equal temperament (in which a cent = 1/100 of a semitone). Best, Matthew Le 28 juil. 2019 à 10:13, Rainer a écrit : Apparently, they don't have the slightest idea where the concept of cents is coming from. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Very entertaining, indeed. Apparently, they don't have the slightest idea where the concept of cents is coming from. Rainer PS What these guys say about "complicated numbers" and computers in part two is - I am afraid to say - bullshit. These guys are mathematical idiots. On 27.07.2019 12:33, Matthew Daillie wrote: An interesting and entertaining introduction to temperaments in the Renaissance (but which does not broach the subject of fretted instruments): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R75unSXKJXQ=youtu.be Some of the other episodes are also relevant to questions of temperament. Best, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)
On 27.07.2019 18:21, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: Im vortail mit dem Puschel und Muschel. Most impressive! Muschel died in October 2002 and Puschel died on 3.03.03. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)
Wer lesen kann, ist klar im Vorteil. Rainer On 27.07.2019 17:32, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: F# on the 4th course shows up quite a lot in Dowland. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jul 27, 2019, at 7:09 AM, Rainer wrote: On 26.07.2019 21:53, tribioli wrote: Everything you need about fret positions is written in David van Oojien page about temperaments. I use the 1/6 comma (pythagorean) with the first fret to the A flat position (for a G first string). That gives a very wrong F sharp on the IV course (it is a G flat indeed) but old music does show D major chord with the F sharp to the IV course really really seldom (that's another thing that seems to show they used some sort of temperament) Excellent! Facts - some people have serious problems with facts. on 15.05.2018 (obviously before the football World Cup) I wrote: Another argument, I have not seen here, yet. In unequal [must be equal] temperament all octaves are pure. In 1/6 meantone the octave 2e, 4b is not pure at all. There is a piece by de Rippe where he uses 2e and 5g instead. I have run a regular expression search (the computer gurus will know) on all my tab files (to scan Fronimo files is impossible, the format is binary): the octave 2d, 4a occurs 805 times. The octave2e, 4b occurs 0 [yes zero] times. I think this is a rather convincing argument, is it not? Rainer The regular expression is not very sophisticated since it does not properly handle ornaments. But 805:0 is even better than Germany's 7:1 :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)
On 26.07.2019 21:53, tribioli wrote: Everything you need about fret positions is written in David van Oojien page about temperaments. I use the 1/6 comma (pythagorean) with the first fret to the A flat position (for a G first string). That gives a very wrong F sharp on the IV course (it is a G flat indeed) but old music does show D major chord with the F sharp to the IV course really really seldom (that's another thing that seems to show they used some sort of temperament) Excellent! Facts - some people have serious problems with facts. on 15.05.2018 (obviously before the football World Cup) I wrote: Another argument, I have not seen here, yet. In unequal [must be equal] temperament all octaves are pure. In 1/6 meantone the octave 2e, 4b is not pure at all. There is a piece by de Rippe where he uses 2e and 5g instead. I have run a regular expression search (the computer gurus will know) on all my tab files (to scan Fronimo files is impossible, the format is binary): the octave 2d, 4a occurs 805 times. The octave2e, 4b occurs 0 [yes zero] times. I think this is a rather convincing argument, is it not? Rainer The regular expression is not very sophisticated since it does not properly handle ornaments. But 805:0 is even better than Germany's 7:1 :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments
On 22.07.2019 04:15, Jurgen Frenz wrote: to my opinion it would be great if someone anyone would record an identical piece of renaissance music twice: once in equal temperament and once in a different tuning so that everybody can appreciate the difference. Of course, one thing that nobody mentioned in this discussion is our "well-tempered" music that from early childhood onward has conditioned our hearing - Arab and Indian musicians hear those micro-intervals much better than we do because their everyday sonic environment contains them. I assume that in the 16th century European ears were differently trained than ours today and hence the music-playing public would hear those intervals that we judge to be of lesser importance. There is a hypothesis that monophonic non-western music survives with little changes precisely because of these subtle intervals that are charged with emotional expressiveness whereas our western harmonic equal 'temperamented' music ended its development around 1900 when all possibilities had been explored. - I do not know if we can improve our hearing so as to recognize the subtleties of non-equal temperament once we are older than 20 or so. Whatever the case, it would be great to hear the difference in an example - it should be remarkable in a slower Dall'Aquila fantasia or something similar. Best wishes Jurgen Go to http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988 and press "Related Links". I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings, but I cannot remember. Rainer PS We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has changed his mind :( To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Folger 1v
Dear lute netters, on folio 1v of the so-called Folger-Dowland MS there are fragments of a piece (the first one) looking like a treble of a treble and ground. I seem to remember that a long time ago the task for "lutes win prizes" was to identify this piece and somebody really did it. Does anybody know? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Goodbye to microfilms
Dear lute netters, some of you may have purchased microfilms in the past. I spent a LOT of money to buy films for my Holborne edition. Today we have all those free digital copies of manuscripts. However, it's not only saving money - the digital versions are MUCH better than the films. Today I have entered The Frog galliard (the version on f. 93r in Dd.2.11) into tab and I noticed that Diana Poulton obviously had problems reading the film (I have the first edition of her Dowland edition): 1) She added a "missing" note in bar 25 which is not missing in Dd.2.11 2) She added a "missing" note in bar 42 which is not missing in the source. By the way, I think it is quite obvious that the second chord in bar 42 is nonsense and should be a single "a" on the first course only. Holmes started to copy the first chord a second time. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Folger 280
On 04.06.2019 21:00, Matthew Daillie wrote: There is a 6-page introduction by Ian Harwood to the Lute Society facsimile edition. Is this what you are after? No. I have the facsimile edition. Here is what I'm looking for (from Michael Gale, John Dowland, celebrity lute teacher, Early Music 2013): I. Harwood, ‘Aspects of the Folger “Dowland” Lute Book (MS v.b.280)’, paper presented at Folger Institute seminar ‘Harmony’s Entrancing Power’: Music in Early Modern England, 23–4 September 2005. I am indebted to the late Mr Harwood for sending me a copy of this important study which (to the best of my knowledge) remains unpublished. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Folger 280
Dear lute netters, does anybody know if Ian Harwood's ‘Aspects of the Folger “Dowland” Lute Book (MS v.b.280)’ has ever been published in any form? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes
On 26.05.2019 06:37, Alain Veylit wrote: .. At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a plausible case that C an She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of Essex galliard) is a veiled referen ce to the relationship between Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of Essex. They were wi dely believed to be lovers early on, certainly - she was only 32 (thirty-two) years older than Devereux. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dürer's African Man and Neusiedler's weird dances
West African origin - almost as certain as Tristan is living on the dark side of the moon. Anybody interested in the Hoftanz should have a look at the famous articles be Gombosi (a bit old) and Heartz. I am not aware of any text for the Schwarzknab, but schwarz certainly refers to the colour of the hair. Rainer PS: Andi should know more To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: CLM 90
On 19.05.2019 18:26, Matthew Daillie wrote: Hi Rainer, Diana Poulton's commentary remains unchanged in the 1981 edition. I find your conclusion quite convincing but why then remove the diminished bar (31) rather than the repeat of bar 15 (bar 32)? I have no argument at all - just a matter of taste :) In an edition I would offer both versions as I have done in a similar case in my Holborne edition. By the way, there was some discussion about a 4th edition to be published by Faber & Faber 15 years ago. Apparently there is no market for such editions, any more :( The candidates for a non-profit publication (John, Stewart, Martin, Ian, myself, ...) are probably too old and/or sick or dead :( Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] CLM 90
Dear lute netters, today I had a closer look at CLM90 - the version of the Frog Galliard in 3056, 42v-43r. There is a strange error apparently not understood by Diana Poulton (I have the 1974 edition) nor by John Robinson (Music supplement 113, April 2015): Apparently the second strain is too long - it ends on bar 33. Diana Poulton writes "an extra bar is introduced" I think it is quite clear what really happened here. Bar 31 is a division of bar 15. Then the scribe of 3056 copied bar 15 once again - in its original state. Later he noticed that there was an extra bar. He tried to solve the problem and made things much worse. He tried to join bars 32 and 33 into a single bar. This is obvious from the digital version of 3056 - probably not from a microfilm. I think there is only one feasible solution: Remove bar 31 or 32. To my ears removing bar 31 sounds better. Any ideas anybody? Has Poulton changed her mind in later editions? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Klosmann
Dear Arthur, Eitner was wrong. At least three part books have survived and are on-line. It contains Dowland concordances, pieces stolen form Terpsichore and other well known music. In the table of contents he claims "Sequuntur cantiones incertorum autorum, quibus voces intermediae ab authore huius operis adiectae sunt." Which implies that he at least composed additional voices for some pieces. Therefore he cannot have been a mere publisher. Apart from these additional voices the book does not seem to contain any music composed by Klosmann(?). Rainer On 04.05.2019 17:11, Arthur Ness wrote: The publisher is Caspar Klosman in Leipzig. An anthology with 100 dances, fantasias, canzonas, et cetera. Unique copy (according to Robert Eitner: Musik-Sammelwerke [1905?], pp. 269-270) in Liegnitz, Ritterakademie. TENOR partbook only. Eitner1622b. I couldn't find it in RISM online or in Recueils imprimés (1960). bibliographieder00eitn_0269.jpg bibliographieder00eitn_0270.jpg -Original Message----- From: Rainer To: Lute net Sent: Sat, May 4, 2019 4:40 am Subject: [LUTE] Klosmann Dear lute netters, does anybody know anything about Caspar Klosmann and/or his "Amoenitatum musicalium hortulus..." published in 1622? There is almost nothing on the Internet and even nothing in Jstor. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Klosmann
Dear lute netters, does anybody know anything about Caspar Klosmann and/or his "Amoenitatum musicalium hortulus..." published in 1622? There is almost nothing on the Internet and even nothing in Jstor. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Leonardo da Vinci and the lute
https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=vinci=lute%40cs.dartmouth.edu On 28.04.2019 09:42, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Dear collected wisdom In an interview on Leonardo's 500-year memorial Prof. Bernd Roeck (author of a biography) talked about the musical skills and says that Leonardo was known as a good singer and lute player. Has somebody informations and sources on that topic? Thanks a lot! Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: John Renborn article
LSA Quarterlies LSAQ 1989 No. 1 LSAQ 2006 No. 3 LSAQ 2014 No. 4 Rainer Found with the mighty power of my computer :) On 26.04.2019 14:15, Wayne wrote: Hi - Can someone remind me what LSA journal had an article about John Renborn? Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: TAB for windows 64 bit
I create a new 32-bit executable for Windows from time to time - from an new source version released by Wayne. Anybody who wants to receive these new versions please let me know. I also have a manual based on Leonard's manual. I don't think creating a 64 bit version makes sense. Nobody needs to create tab files with several Giga bytes :) Rainer On 09.04.2019 12:48, Wayne wrote: Hi lute people - I have compiled a windows 64 version of my tab program, and put it at https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/wtab/ This is a very “raw” distribution and is only for people who are very comfortable with command prompt and already are familiar with using my tab program. There are some tips at https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/tab-with-vs.html but I won’t be able to give people a lot of help. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Anglus Aloyson
From the German Wikipedia entry for Fuhrmann: Werke der Komponisten Valentin Strobel und Anglus Aloyson sind ausschließlich über Fuhrmanns Testudo überliefert. Große Wissenschaft :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: fret positions above the 12th fret (re-re)
Yes, it's as simple as that. n=12 o=13, p=14, .. so j is the only one that is not used. In those days there was no real difference between "i" and "j". Dowland uses p somewhere, Piccinini goes much higher (20th fret) and ages ago somebody found a piece that went even higher (I think it was 26) in an 18th century tablature. Rainer On 28.03.2019 11:11, Jurgen Frenz wrote: Hello there, my apologies, I forgot that the list bot doesn't handle images so a message I sent earlier was unreadable. So here I go again, with the relevant image of the tabulature linked to google drive. I didn't find an answer online or on the British Lute Society's FB page as to how positions above the octave are identified on a lute. There is this curious section in Mercure d'Orléan's "Auff der Schlacht von Padua" in Fuhrmann's Testudio p.188 where he notates notes as "p", "r" and "t". As I don't want to trust my assumption that these would correspond to finger positions 14,15 and 17 or the notes 'a', 'bb' and 'c' assuming a lute in g I am asking here for the facts. And where are these finger positions or 'fret names' codified? I attach a screen shot of the last two lines of that page. Oh and I don't want to discuss the musical quality of that lengthy piece. [1]https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UFZSHsdgjwXBpMlci5oO-rzriDIpBA9Z Any advice would be very welcome! Best wishes Jurgen -- "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen." JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi References 1. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UFZSHsdgjwXBpMlci5oO-rzriDIpBA9Z To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: frets / positions above the octave
On 27.03.2019 10:29, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
ogûÙýZçWvu÷›}½ñÏZ{w6óŽ_Ù°¨ž×§µ<©z×±·úej)Ü…ªìz
Ugga, Agga
Rainer
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[LUTE] Strange notation
Dear lute netters, in Brown 1546_3 (whcih is more or less a reprint of Brown 1546_2) "Intavolatura di lauto del divino Francesco da Milano, et dell''eccellente Pietro Paulo Borrono da Milano, nuovamente [...]" there is a somewhat strange notation - which may be explained in the regola, but I do not understand Italian. He uses brackets like (1 0) I assume this is an ornament - isn't it called a "pull-off" in English? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] "Late" pieces by Francesco
Dear lute netters, yesterday I have read The Reputation of Francesco da Milano (1497-1543) and the Ricercars in the "Cavalcanti Lute Book" Author(s): Victor Coelho Source: Revue belge de Musicologie / Belgisch Tijdschrift voor Muziekwetenschap , Vol. 50, Manuscrits de musique polyphonique originaires des anciens Pays-Bas. Manuscrits de musique polyphonique conservés en Belgique (1996), pp. 49-72 Published by: Societe Belge de Musicologie I wonder what others - Arthur - think about it. Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
When I first watched the film Gattaca a pianist played a well known piece (was it an Impromptu by Schubert?) I suddenly noticed some strange additional notes and told my girl friend that something was weird here. Of course, you need twelve fingers for this "version" of the piece. Shaking hands with this guy probably would be a "strange experience" :) Rainer PS Some years ago I had two Maine Coon cats and I believe Maine Coons with 6 toes are a well known mutation. Kischi and Schnuddel were wonderful cats but they had 5 toes only :) On 05.03.2019 18:04, howard posner wrote: On Mar 5, 2019, at 2:09 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Pat actually had me put masking tape on my pinky early on, to prevent it from bending. Yes, shaking hands with Roman was always a strange experience for that reason. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio
On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force. And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio
Ooops, I mixed up 2nd and 3rd finger. Sorry :) Rainer On 04.03.2019 13:23, Rainer wrote: On 04.03.2019 11:11, b...@symbol4.de wrote: Dear all, Gerle (Musica teusch, Nürnberg 1532) says explicitely: set the little and ring fingers of the right hand on the belly, not on the rose but a little behind it. This refers to the first exercises/pieces with two voices only: Nym den lautten kragen in die lincken handt vnd setz an der rechten handt den kleyn finger/ Vnd den goldfinger auff die deck/ nit auff den stern / ein wenig dar hindther... However, regarding pieces with three voices he writes: So folgen etliche stückleyn hernach mit dreyen stymen/die magstu auch lernen/ und mustu den mittel finger an der rechten handt zu der dritten stym gebrauchen. which, of course, implies that the third finger does not rest on the belly. Rainer Kind regards Bernd Gesendet: Montag, 04. März 2019 um 09:01 Uhr Von: "Martyn Hodgson" An: "Edward C. Yong" , "Lisa Sass @muse" Cc: "Lute List" Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Caravaggio There's no reason why the third finger should not be held on the belly - rather than the more conventional fourth. Indeed, some historical players (Kapsberger comes to mind) are recorded as only plucking with the thumb, first and second fingers. Further, it's not wholly unlikely that the painting shows a model who may not have had much, if any, real instruction on how to play the instrument - how many modern depictions of lutes (in ads etc) depict unlikely postures which are accepted by the general public (eg a current UK Building society TV ad) and even, amazingly, a print ad for a manufacturer of thirteen course and other lutes being played in what appears to be an unconventional manner MH On Saturday, 2 March 2019, 04:39:51 GMT, Lisa Sass @muse wrote: You're welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. Plus, link to a followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom. Sent from my TRS-80 > On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong <[1]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thank you! This may well have been it! > >> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse <[2]muse314...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Was it David Van >> Edwards? [1][3][1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm >> >> ~Lisa Sass >> Sent from my TRS-80 >> On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong <[2][4]edward.y...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK Lute >> Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings of lute >> players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was likely a >> fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was quite a >> compelling argument at the time. >> Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is >> available? >> Thanks in advance! >> Edward >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [3][5][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. [6][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm >> 2. mailto:[7]edward.y...@gmail.com >> 3. [8][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > -- References 1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 2. mailto:muse314...@gmail.com 3. [5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 5. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. [7]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 7. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 8. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio
On 04.03.2019 11:11, b...@symbol4.de wrote: Dear all, Gerle (Musica teusch, Nürnberg 1532) says explicitely: set the little and ring fingers of the right hand on the belly, not on the rose but a little behind it. This refers to the first exercises/pieces with two voices only: Nym den lautten kragen in die lincken handt vnd setz an der rechten handt den kleyn finger/ Vnd den goldfinger auff die deck/ nit auff den stern / ein wenig dar hindther... However, regarding pieces with three voices he writes: So folgen etliche stückleyn hernach mit dreyen stymen/die magstu auch lernen/ und mustu den mittel finger an der rechten handt zu der dritten stym gebrauchen. which, of course, implies that the third finger does not rest on the belly. Rainer Kind regards Bernd Gesendet: Montag, 04. März 2019 um 09:01 Uhr Von: "Martyn Hodgson" An: "Edward C. Yong" , "Lisa Sass @muse" Cc: "Lute List" Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Caravaggio There's no reason why the third finger should not be held on the belly - rather than the more conventional fourth. Indeed, some historical players (Kapsberger comes to mind) are recorded as only plucking with the thumb, first and second fingers. Further, it's not wholly unlikely that the painting shows a model who may not have had much, if any, real instruction on how to play the instrument - how many modern depictions of lutes (in ads etc) depict unlikely postures which are accepted by the general public (eg a current UK Building society TV ad) and even, amazingly, a print ad for a manufacturer of thirteen course and other lutes being played in what appears to be an unconventional manner MH On Saturday, 2 March 2019, 04:39:51 GMT, Lisa Sass @muse wrote: You're welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. Plus, link to a followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom. Sent from my TRS-80 > On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong <[1]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thank you! This may well have been it! > >> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse <[2]muse314...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Was it David Van >> Edwards? [1][3][1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm >> >> ~Lisa Sass >> Sent from my TRS-80 >> On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong <[2][4]edward.y...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK Lute >> Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings of lute >> players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was likely a >> fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was quite a >> compelling argument at the time. >> Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is >> available? >> Thanks in advance! >> Edward >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [3][5][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. [6][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm >> 2. mailto:[7]edward.y...@gmail.com >> 3. [8][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > -- References 1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 2. mailto:muse314...@gmail.com 3. [5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 5. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. [7]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 7. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 8. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: To repeat or not to repeat
Dear Andrea, On 24.02.2019 23:03, Andrea Damiani wrote: Dear Rainer I play this piece since many years and I never realized it could be a mistake, perhaps because this fantasia sounds for me like a ‘battle’ piece and the repetition allows to make some different dynamic effects. Anyway I found an other occurrence of repetition in MIlan, albeit a bit more hidden: in the fantasia 34 the first 25 measures are repeated, in proporcion de tres semibreves, from bar 76. Difficult to say if he is asking for a different accentuation. Which piece do you call fantasia 34? According to Jacobs and Chieasa it is the piece on O1r. However, it does not match you description?!? Best wishes, Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] To repeat or not to repeat
Dear lute netters, I think I posted this already 20 years ago - I cannot remember. In Milan's fantasia 22 (Maestro, G2r-G3v) bars 107-167 are (apart from s a single misprinted note) an exact copy of bars 41-101. I wonder if this is really intended. Of course, as we know from the errata list at the end of the book, Milan obviously checked the whole book for errors and why should he have missed such an error. On the other hand 60 repeated bars... I am not aware of a similar case in other fantasias. Any opinions? Best wishes, Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
