Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
Sherm Pendley wrote: On May 7, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Chris Nandor wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sherm Pendley) wrote: I need donations to CamelBones. Or web hosting customers. Or consulting clients. Or a plain old-fashioned job. Or something - and I need it soon. Have you considered a Perl Foundation Grant? Surely this is more worthy than some of the other grants they've done. I've considered it, but one of the requirements is that the proposed project benefits a large segment of the Perl community. Honestly, I've never figured CamelBones would meet that requirement - Mac users are a pretty small niche, Cocoa developers a small niche within that, and Cocoa/Perl developers a small niche within that. Try it anyway! If you don't ask, the answer is always no. : ) Robert
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
Sun, May 06, 2007 at 05:07:46PM -0400: Sherm Pendley mangled some bits into this alignment: On May 6, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Alex Robinson wrote: I wish even more that Apple had picked you up and made CamelBones a first class citizen. Good news: That may still happen. Good news indeed. Before I go any further I ought to introduce myself since I am new to the list. My name is Jeremiah Foster and I'm a perl hacker and OS X softie - perfect for this list eh? =) So, why has Apple ignored CamelBones? What all this means is, first-class scripting support is actually language-neutral, and even though Leopard will be the first OS version to include it, nothing about it will require Leopard. At the edges, specific support for RubyCocoa and PyObjC basically means that their frameworks and project templates are included with Leopard. Why did the OS X loving bit of the perl community sit by and let PyObjC become the default bridge. I blame the CamelBones management - i.e. myself. Great to see such candor from a developer, it is commendable. I blog and write a bit on O'Reilly's web site, maybe I can work out a blog posting about CamelBones? Hopefully that would add traffic/users/donations which would be a good thing. Let me know if you are interested sherm. I am afraid I cannot offer financial support at this time since I am also not gainfully employed in a permanent fashion, just some writing and such, but if I can help in other ways I would love to. Perhaps you can post a wish list to this mailing list so that those who can hack, provide bandwidth, etc. can contribute if that is useful to you. In any case, I am very interested in perl, OS X, and CamelBones and am willing to use my little soap box to further their vitality. Regards, Jeremiah
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
Tue, May 08, 2007 at 05:25:35PM -0400: Sherm Pendley mangled some bits into this alignment: On May 7, 2007, at 6:23 AM, David Cantrell wrote: On Sun, May 06, 2007 at 08:25:49PM +0100, Alex Robinson wrote: Why did the OS X loving bit of the perl community sit by and let PyObjC become the default bridge. Because the vast majority of perl people who moved to OS X did so because it was Unix That Worked On A Laptop and not because it was Mac. Too many of us still sneer at anything non-Unix. It's not just in Mac circles either - there's a very widespread misconception that Perl is useful for system admins, web developers, and little else. One thing I find personally frustrating is the corollary, that Perl *programmers* must be admins or web devs. I find that frustrating because I'm not an admin, and while I don't mind web work, I don't want to focus on it exclusively. So, what can be done to change that? It's basically a PR/evangelism problem, which is well outside my area of expertise. Any suggestions? One or two cool apps will help. Coda is an excellent example of creating a buzz amongst creatives and developers. I also think Perl 6 is going to be really, really amazing but that may not directly aid CB, maybe present it with its own set of problems. But it would be pretty cool if CB had Perl 6 support and people could build OS X apps in Perl 6 with Cocoa bindings, w00t. Also the chattering classes, that is to say bloggers, of which I am an ignominious member, need to promote CB, perl, and Mac OS X development in general since OS X is a great platform for development and perl is a great language and CB is the perfect tool, etc. Jeremiah,
Re: Speaking of support for Camel Bones
Sherm Pendley wrote: snip That's my biggest concern. CB is mostly of use to the subset of the community who are using Macs, and need to write GUI apps. My concern is whether that's a big enough subset to warrant a grant. Yes, but think of the future. If this is funded and gets to be a part of OSX going forward then the community really is anyone who *may* program in Perl on OSX in the future. That could be a large number of people that would be helped by CB. Evangelism is all that is needed. : ) Robert
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
Hi all, I have blogged a bit about Camel Bones here on O'Reilly. Please comment if you would so that the python person who commented is not the sole comment. Nothing personal against python but it sucks. http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2007/05/developing_with_camel_bones_pe_1.html Jeremiah
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
On 5/8/07, at 5:25 PM -0400, Sherm Pendley wrote: It's not just in Mac circles either - there's a very widespread misconception that Perl is useful for system admins, web developers, and little else. One thing I find personally frustrating is the corollary, that Perl *programmers* must be admins or web devs. I'm a retired mathematician, myself. I can't even administer my own (iMac) system, but I use Perl constantly. I am not particularly interested in Camel Bones, but I do use the ShuX application quite often. You had something to do with that didn't you, Sherm? I believe I got it from your site. Regards, Vic -- *---* mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Victor Thane Norton, Jr. | Mathematician and Motorcyclist | Bowling Green, OH 43402-2223, USA | Phone: 419-353-3399 *---* http://vic.norton.name
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
On 5/9/07 Jeremiah Foster wrote: I have blogged a bit about Camel Bones here on O'Reilly. Please comment if you would so that the python person who commented is not the sole comment. Nothing personal against python but it sucks. But let's not turn this into a battle in the best language wars. All tools to all people, as needed, where useful! Best, - Bruce __bruce__van_allen__santa_cruz__ca__
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
Wed, May 09, 2007 at 08:55:54AM -0700: Bruce Van Allen mangled some bits into this alignment: On 5/9/07 Jeremiah Foster wrote: I have blogged a bit about Camel Bones here on O'Reilly. Please comment if you would so that the python person who commented is not the sole comment. Nothing personal against python but it sucks. But let's not turn this into a battle in the best language wars. All tools to all people, as needed, where useful! Absolutely Bruce. I didn't mean to turn this into a language war. Just trying to be funny and glib. I apologize. Jeremiah
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
On 5/9/07 Jeremiah Foster wrote: Wed, May 09, 2007 at 08:55:54AM -0700: Bruce Van Allen mangled some bits into this alignment: On 5/9/07 Jeremiah Foster wrote: I have blogged a bit about Camel Bones here on O'Reilly. Please comment if you would so that the python person who commented is not the sole comment. Nothing personal against python but it sucks. But let's not turn this into a battle in the best language wars. All tools to all people, as needed, where useful! Absolutely Bruce. I didn't mean to turn this into a language war. Just trying to be funny and glib. I apologize. Accepted. - Bruce __bruce__van_allen__santa_cruz__ca__
Re: Speaking of support for Camel Bones
On 5/8/07 Tim Bunce wrote: On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 05:38:42PM -0400, Sherm Pendley wrote: On May 8, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Bruce Van Allen wrote: I think we can confidently answer the Benefits to the Perl Community issue. That's my biggest concern. CB is mostly of use to the subset of the community who are using Macs, and need to write GUI apps. My concern is whether that's a big enough subset to warrant a grant. Don't just think about the Benefits to the Perl _Developer_ Community. Also think in terms of increasing the size of the Perl _User_ Community by enabling quality Mac apps to be implemented in/with perl. Tim. Exactly. I don't have an actual count, but what comes to mind is the huge number of people now dipping their toes into SQL and programmable database systems simply because of the (L)AMP connection of mySQL and PHP. Appreciate what they're missing (besides being limited to a Web framework): CB + DBI = the real thing. And there would be plenty of other growth vectors opened up. But moving past the why, some work needs to be done before the sales pitch/evangelism. Sherm will need to write a proposal and submit it to the Perl Foundation. The rest of this message has my suggestions for how this could happen. The next deadline for submissions is June 8, 2007. Per TPF guidelines, the proposal needs to include some things that have to be thought through and written out: - Synopsis A short description. - Benefits to the Perl Community - Deliverables Quantifiable results e.g. Improve X modules in ways Y and Z, Write 3 articles for X website. - Project Details A more detailed description. Additional non-trivial items are a schedule for the project and a description of Sherm's background and qualifications to do the project. A quick look at recently funded TPF grants suggests that this might take a total of 2500 to 4000 words -- the length of a serious journal article. To do this in one month, it would be handy to have some milestones that give Sherm a timeline for writing, and provide those of us who want to help a structure for some parallel processing. 1. Project Definition. To start, the project will need to be defined; in my view this should be the realistic next set of steps in CB's development. The rest of the proposal follows from the project definition. - Sherm's part: I imagine Sherm has next steps in mind, so the task now would be for him to write out a description and circulate it. - Our part: We can help if he needs encouragement to think big or if he needs to choose what to take _off_ the plate for now. 2. Outlines, lists, or blurts for the sections listed above. This is just to get started; the point is to see what needs to be said and where it should be said in the sections of the proposal. - Sherm's part: Sherm should do this in whatever way he's most comfortable putting ideas into words. Concreteness and clarity more important than golden sentences. Ask for support where you have gaps. - Our part: Review and especially check for what's missing/incomplete in the _ideas_ for each section. Conceive of examples. Check references. 3. Writing Writing is re-writing. - Sherm's part: Develop drafts. Write to an audience that is both demanding of you and also believes in you. - Our part: review drafts, feed back quickly, stay on topic. 4. Proposal Composition The written pieces need to be strung together in order and printed out in a format different from the previous composition, so the emerging proposal may be read with fresh eyes. - Sherm's part: Piece it together, send it out, and then take a break. - Our part: Read, review, encourage, stay on topic. 5. Credentials This is a part that is important but outside the particulars of the proposed project, namely Sherm's qualifications. - Sherm's part: circulate something. Don't be modest, don't BS. - Our part: Read and review; also write our own brief and focused support notes/letters. 6. Project Schedule Budget The proposal will need a schedule for the project that makes sense, and a budget for Sherm's time that is credible. At this starting point (May 9), I think attention should be on conceiving a sufficiently large project to move CB forward -- but I don't know what that is, or how long it would take. Looking at past TPF grants will give some context for this. But focus on the project for now, and come back to this after progress on the above steps. OK, those are enough milestones for now. All meant in the spirit of creating a framework, nothing rigid or right about it. How about some dates? 1. Project Definition. Mon, May 14. 2. Outlines, lists, or blurts for the sections listed above. Fri May 18. 3. Writing Fri May 25 4. Proposal Composition Tues May 29 5. Credentials Fri June 1 6. Project Schedule Budget Fri June 1 These dates are arbitrary, but if we get those things done, the remaining week up to the Fri June 8 deadline should be sufficient for final editing and
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
On May 9, 2007, at 11:55 AM, Bruce Van Allen wrote: On 5/9/07 Jeremiah Foster wrote: I have blogged a bit about Camel Bones here on O'Reilly. Please comment if you would so that the python person who commented is not the sole comment. Nothing personal against python but it sucks. But let's not turn this into a battle in the best language wars. All tools to all people, as needed, where useful! That, indeed, is the philosophy of CamelBones. I'll say it again, in the land of the free: Use your freedom of choice! --Devo sherm-- Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
On May 9, 2007, at 11:51 AM, Vic Norton wrote: On 5/8/07, at 5:25 PM -0400, Sherm Pendley wrote: It's not just in Mac circles either - there's a very widespread misconception that Perl is useful for system admins, web developers, and little else. One thing I find personally frustrating is the corollary, that Perl *programmers* must be admins or web devs. I'm a retired mathematician, myself. Is that something you can *really* retire from? Or are you doing the same thing you've always done, only now without bosses and schedules to distract you? :-) I can't even administer my own (iMac) system, but I use Perl constantly. I am not particularly interested in Camel Bones, but I do use the ShuX application quite often. You had something to do with that didn't you, Sherm? I believe I got it from your site. Yes, ShuX was the first CamelBones app. When I switched to Mac OS X, I found that a couple of years of using MacPerl and Shuck had thoroughly spoiled me for readable docs. I simply could not stand going back to reading them in fixed-pitch Monaco again. I had a little sign over my monitor for a while that said Times or Bust. :-) Funny thing is, I like Monaco for command-line work, and for editing text in BBEdit. It's only for reading docs that it really bothers my eyes. | Mathematician and Motorcyclist Have you seen the new Norton motorcycles? The Commando is *sweet*! :-) sherm-- Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Fwd: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Just figured out that this only went to Jeremiah. Begin forwarded message: From: Tom Yarrish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: May 9, 2007 9:11:08 AM CDT To: Jeremiah Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food! -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On May 9, 2007, at 5:59 AM, Jeremiah Foster wrote: Tue, May 08, 2007 at 05:25:35PM -0400: Sherm Pendley mangled some bits into this alignment: On May 7, 2007, at 6:23 AM, David Cantrell wrote: On Sun, May 06, 2007 at 08:25:49PM +0100, Alex Robinson wrote: Why did the OS X loving bit of the perl community sit by and let PyObjC become the default bridge. Because the vast majority of perl people who moved to OS X did so because it was Unix That Worked On A Laptop and not because it was Mac. Too many of us still sneer at anything non-Unix. It's not just in Mac circles either - there's a very widespread misconception that Perl is useful for system admins, web developers, and little else. One thing I find personally frustrating is the corollary, that Perl *programmers* must be admins or web devs. I find that frustrating because I'm not an admin, and while I don't mind web work, I don't want to focus on it exclusively. So, what can be done to change that? It's basically a PR/evangelism problem, which is well outside my area of expertise. Any suggestions? One or two cool apps will help. Coda is an excellent example of creating a buzz amongst creatives and developers. I also think Perl 6 is going to be really, really amazing but that may not directly aid CB, maybe present it with its own set of problems. But it would be pretty cool if CB had Perl 6 support and people could build OS X apps in Perl 6 with Cocoa bindings, w00t. Also the chattering classes, that is to say bloggers, of which I am an ignominious member, need to promote CB, perl, and Mac OS X development in general since OS X is a great platform for development and perl is a great language and CB is the perfect tool, etc. Jeremiah, Another way to promote CB that I just thought of, why not get an article in The Perl Review? I know it's not a huge audience, but I do know chromatic usually lists what's in the latest issue when he puts out the O'Reilly Perl newsletter. I just thought of something else too, maybe an interview on Perlcast? I could ask Josh McAdams if he's interested in doing the interview (or maybe we could arrange for someone to interview you). Tom -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFGQiEhZWzkfeDiTw4RAu7UAJ9aVlo1/qgWW8dpceEjznmXwB/qCgCfaLbI vd/CbTsiNksKfmhJmy/KARk= =3gW0 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
On Wed, May 9, 2007 3:50 pm, Sherm Pendley said: So, the next version - 1.2 release, preceded by 1.1.x betas - will also be licensed under the same terms: GPL or Artistic, your choice. I wouldn't have had a problem with a commercial program using CB anyway, even before the license change - the LGPL only requires that the framework can be easily replaced with a custom version, and the structure of an .app bundle makes that a trivial task. Also, I've been looking at PyGame, and watching how much enthusiasm it helps generate around Python. Games could definitely be a killer app area here. If you are looking for an app that would get widely used, I've got an idea that's been on the top of my 'when I have time to program' list for the past ~2 years... Macs desperately _need_ a an app to manage third-party software updates. Something that you could run periodically to keep software up to date, avoiding having every seprate program connect to the internet on startup and check for itself. (Invariably the wrong time to do an update...) My basic thought is to create a folder in the 'Application Support' directory where apps can drop an XML file with their current version, a link to where update files can be found, and their public key of some sort. The update file would just be another XML file with the current version, and some information on paid/nonpaid, license changes, what's updated, etc. Both the update file and the program update itself would be signed by the company, and the updater app doesn't accept any update that doesn't have a valid signature. The program should either be runnable manually or on schedule(s), where it checks to see if the programs registered with it (by them dropping the file in the 'Application Support' subfolder) need updating. Then it can download, install, or just notify the user. Using CPAN, this should be a fairly quick project, I think. But it would take me a few days just get back up to speed enough on Cocoa to start it, and I have _no_ spare time. (I literally don't even have a single vacation day this year.) I've got the design in my head, but it could be ages before I get a chance to write it. I'd love to pay someone to do it, but... Well, I just donated all my spare change to Sherm already. ;) I _do_ have time to discuss though, if people want info. (I can do that at work, where I have little to do. But I can't program outside projects there.) Anyway, if people are looking for a 'killer app', I think this could generate a lot of interest if done well. And, as long as the end result is free and open-source (for this, I care that people can use it) I don't care who programs it. If no one else is interested, I'll probably do it eventually, but it'll be years before I have a chance... Daniel T. Staal --- This email copyright the author. Unless otherwise noted, you are expressly allowed to retransmit, quote, or otherwise use the contents for non-commercial purposes. This copyright will expire 5 years after the author's death, or in 30 years, whichever is longer, unless such a period is in excess of local copyright law. ---
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
On 5/9/07 Peter N Lewis wrote: Perhaps folks have some ideas for apps that could be written in CamelBones? Something that would presumably use some of the vast CPAN facilities to make something cool with minimal programming effort. Mine would not be as flashy as games, but I'm working toward two related CB goals: - a GUI for a bunch of data-handling and text processing stuff that I now do in Perl using cli or BBEdit worksheets and then import to Filemaker for some outputs and also for lookups and data input by non-technical users; and - a spreadsheet GUI that is nothing but a means of accessing and displaying the cells of a table, no built-in functions, with an API capable of accepting libraries of whatever Perl code I need to use (math, text, network) for operations by cell, row, column, sub-table. Adelante! - Bruce __bruce__van_allen__santa_cruz__ca__
Re: CamelBones: Will hack for food!
On May 9, 2007, at 4:32 PM, Daniel T. Staal wrote: Macs desperately _need_ a an app to manage third-party software updates. Something that you could run periodically to keep software up to date, avoiding having every seprate program connect to the internet on startup and check for itself. A good idea. But http://metaquark.de/appfresh/ may have beat you to it. :-) -- Chris Devers
