Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
ciao luca and massimo veturetti! you know well that i don't agree with you. i don't understand what are your measures since with that other system in 20 years we stil can not install the os? you will say that an advanced user surely knows how to deal with this issue but as always i can anser that eden more advanced users can serve them selves with all the tools they know how to use regardless of operating systems. most of all fail to give assolute importance to the tables and the braille because the computer is not used only for super documents or who knowswhat else . i think that if somebody whants to nivea serios opinione on an assistive technology he or she must consider the system and its general use instead of an element by it self. for example ilote the touch pad but i will neverblame jais for not having it. then if we watt to be fair enough must say that ms office 2007 is not the most easy thing to use and let us not talk to some jais problems which jais keeps on having besides its price. Inviato da iPad Il giorno 25/lug/2011, alle ore 14:31, Luca luca.dava...@gmail.com ha scritto: I agree, i was expecting a lot more from vo in lion... look, two years have passed since last release, and what have you new? ok activities, single navigation letter (which could have been made better...), international voices (very buggy, cant deny it...), and new drag and drop... Well in two years only these things is a little on my opinion.. Braille support is terrible, whe told them, wrote a lot of mail... and nothing has changed. Still You cannot do decent word processing with vo, no tables, no footnnotes detection, no title/list detection... Ok some of these things you can do wiith pages but in an extremely convoluted and non efficient way.. And what about numbers? you can use it in a very basic way only... And i am not speaking of bugs, those i hope will be fixed.. but there are quite significant ones -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Ok, i may be naive to the point of stupidness here, but i hope and pray to God that we will be free from scripting on the VO platform. One of the reasons why i switched from PC to Mac was the fact that not only did we have to pay a horrible amount of money for screen readers and the like, but sometimes, we even had to pay a ridiculous sum of money just because we ourselves couldn't adapt the screen reader to work with our programs, because we needed to be programmers to do this. That left the field open for people who did scripts that sometimes worked and other times didn't but we had to pay them still. I do not want to see this on the Mac platform. Of course it would be nice to have programs work the way we wanted it, but i don't want to pay 1.5 times more for the same app as my sighted collegues use, period. /Krister 27 jul 2011 kl. 11:02 skrev Luca: Hi, Some important things i cannot still do with vo are wordprocessing (tables, items, titles, footnotes and so on), easy navigation in number (se t title row, column row , auto reading info when you move from cell to cell ecc). There are also some very useful features in other screen reader still not implemented: continuous reading with fast skipping of elements, for example. And what about scripting? ok activities are a step forward, but still we are not there.. You wrote: I would also ask, what does voiceover not do that you need it to do? I would say it does most things the windows screen readers do, and in some ways does many of them better. On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:12 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: - Nascondi testo citato- Mostra testo citato - Hi, In regards to the iWork stuff, On 24 Lug, 20:49, Chris Snyder ch...@chris-snyder.com wrote: Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
In data Giovedì 28 Luglio 2011 17.11.33, Krister Ekstrom kris...@kristersplace.com ha scritto: Ok, i may be naive to the point of stupidness here, but i hope and pray to God that we will be free from scripting on the VO platform. As you wish. What I need to have done is automatic reading of incoming messages in skype active chat window. Right now, if I want to read incoming chat messages, I need to move VO cursor, then I have to interact with the HTML content, then I have to move to the last message. In alternative, I have to unlink VO cursor from the system focus and still I am not able to have incoming messages read automatically. I need to enter commands. I need to know if a paragraph contains footnotes and endnotes reference; and, if it does and if I want, I should be able to read the note's content without leaving the document text area. When in a spreadsheet, I need to define monitor cells on a document base; when navigating the cells, I need to know if a cell content is a constant or the result of a formula again without leaving the spreadsheet itself. JAWS, Orca, NVDA, Windows eyes to are scriptable. And it is a very powerfull feature. If you want to use that feature, well, it is there; if you do not want, just don't. If something is there, you can choose if you want to use it or not; if a feature is not available... Yes, I know, you can control VO using Apple Script. But there are some limitations and they are major limitations too. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Hi, Some important things i cannot still do with vo are wordprocessing (tables, items, titles, footnotes and so on), easy navigation in number (se t title row, column row , auto reading info when you move from cell to cell ecc). There are also some very useful features in other screen reader still not implemented: continuous reading with fast skipping of elements, for example. And what about scripting? ok activities are a step forward, but still we are not there.. You wrote: I would also ask, what does voiceover not do that you need it to do? I would say it does most things the windows screen readers do, and in some ways does many of them better. On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:12 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: - Nascondi testo citato- Mostra testo citato - Hi, In regards to the iWork stuff, On 24 Lug, 20:49, Chris Snyder ch...@chris-snyder.com wrote: Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Hi Masimo, With respect to Spreadsheets, specifically Numbers, I'm not sure of what you are referring to with respect to its problems. After about one hour of playing around I was able to merge cells, do various formatting, implement functions and much more. I am quite proficient with computers in general but by no means a expert user of spreadsheets. If you have questions about how to do some of these tasks, please feel free to contact me off-list. Later… On 2011-07-27, at 8:51 AM, Massimo Vettoretti wrote: Il giorno 26/lug/2011, alle ore 05:07, Mike Arrigo ha scritto: I would also ask, what does voiceover not do that you need it to do? I would say it does most things the windows screen readers do, and in some ways does many of them better. Hello Mike. I usually like your podcasts and I find your explanations and demos very interesting. But, in this case, I disagree with you. I am not interested in making comparisons between various screen readers, but I prefer a task-related point of view. In other words, the questions I ask to myself wen I am testing a new work environment, is: Can I do the same things I was used to do with the old tools, even if in a different way? And then, is the new way more or less efficient? Is it possible for me, after an appropriate treating period, to accomplish the same work in the same given time using the new operating set and the new assistive technology? Let me say, I love Apple's operating system and I think Voice Over is an awesome accomplishment. But, when it comes to MacOSX Voice Over implementation, in my Humble opinion, there are many many things VO should do better. First of all, Braille implementation is… less then insufficient. After two years, what Braille support under MacOSX Voice Over does, is a poor TTS mirroring. Advanced word processing is another huge problem. How can I work easily with tables, nested lists, end notes, footnotes, headings? Spreadsheets is the same thing. Ok, I can populate a spreadsheet, but when it comes to work with merged cells, formulas, graphics and all that sort of stuff, well, there is a problem, and it is not a very very little problem. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. Tim Kilburn Fort McMurray, AB Canada -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Ok, so VoiceOver has been around 4 or 5 years and has quite a good feature set. No, they don't have everything some other screen readers for Windows have. But, those have been around for 15 years or more, and just look at how buggy and often times unstable they are and I want to ask why those packages are still as unstable, and buggy as they are after 15 years or more of trying. - Original Message - From: Luca luca.dava...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 4:02 AM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Hi, Some important things i cannot still do with vo are wordprocessing (tables, items, titles, footnotes and so on), easy navigation in number (se t title row, column row , auto reading info when you move from cell to cell ecc). There are also some very useful features in other screen reader still not implemented: continuous reading with fast skipping of elements, for example. And what about scripting? ok activities are a step forward, but still we are not there.. You wrote: I would also ask, what does voiceover not do that you need it to do? I would say it does most things the windows screen readers do, and in some ways does many of them better. On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:12 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: - Nascondi testo citato- Mostra testo citato - Hi, In regards to the iWork stuff, On 24 Lug, 20:49, Chris Snyder ch...@chris-snyder.com wrote: Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
No, I just happen to be one of those terrible assistive technology specialist that tells it the way he sees it and sometimes some of the big boys in the assistive technology field don't necessarily like what I say, but they know that I wouldn't say something is bad unless I have the facts to back up what I say. On the other hand, those that I work with would tell you that I don't play favorites with one product or another. And, I don't try to push a product down people's throats that they don't want. Nor will I push a product on someone unless I believe that it will truely meet their needs. - Original Message - From: carolyn Haas chaas0...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Hi David: Can you be bribed? On Jul 25, 2011, at 7:24 PM, David Tanner wrote: I am certainly glad that I don't see nearly as many bugs in VoiceOver as you will find in the shark. - Original Message - From: Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Hi, In regards to the iWork stuff, Its kinda unfair to pin that on the Lion OS in my opinion. after all, There has not been a major update to iWorks since 2009. Lets see what the next big release will mean for accessibility. And in regards to the lack of new features, hmm, I don't know. For example, How many new features exist in jaws 12 that weren't there in jaws 10? I'm not sure how many new features one can really cram into a screen reader in 2 years. And as far as the bugs go, its not like Apple is going to delay Their new OS because of some Voiceover bugs. Lets give it an update or 2 to see what happens? Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com Twitter Skype: rwalker296 www.mobileaccess.org On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:31 AM, Luca wrote: I agree, i was expecting a lot more from vo in lion... look, two years have passed since last release, and what have you new? ok activities, single navigation letter (which could have been made better...), international voices (very buggy, cant deny it...), and new drag and drop... Well in two years only these things is a little on my opinion.. Braille support is terrible, whe told them, wrote a lot of mail... and nothing has changed. Still You cannot do decent word processing with vo, no tables, no footnnotes detection, no title/list detection... Ok some of these things you can do wiith pages but in an extremely convoluted and non efficient way.. And what about numbers? you can use it in a very basic way only... And i am not speaking of bugs, those i hope will be fixed.. but there are quite significant ones -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
This is a good thing, I get tired of people always suggesting one product, regardless of what else is available, I would put the capabilities of voiceover against any windows screen reader, it would at least tie them and in some cases, come out ahead. On Jul 26, 2011, at 7:59 PM, David Tanner wrote: No, I just happen to be one of those terrible assistive technology specialist that tells it the way he sees it and sometimes some of the big boys in the assistive technology field don't necessarily like what I say, but they know that I wouldn't say something is bad unless I have the facts to back up what I say. On the other hand, those that I work with would tell you that I don't play favorites with one product or another. And, I don't try to push a product down people's throats that they don't want. Nor will I push a product on someone unless I believe that it will truely meet their needs. - Original Message - From: carolyn Haas chaas0...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Hi David: Can you be bribed? On Jul 25, 2011, at 7:24 PM, David Tanner wrote: I am certainly glad that I don't see nearly as many bugs in VoiceOver as you will find in the shark. - Original Message - From: Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Hi, In regards to the iWork stuff, Its kinda unfair to pin that on the Lion OS in my opinion. after all, There has not been a major update to iWorks since 2009. Lets see what the next big release will mean for accessibility. And in regards to the lack of new features, hmm, I don't know. For example, How many new features exist in jaws 12 that weren't there in jaws 10? I'm not sure how many new features one can really cram into a screen reader in 2 years. And as far as the bugs go, its not like Apple is going to delay Their new OS because of some Voiceover bugs. Lets give it an update or 2 to see what happens? Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com Twitter Skype: rwalker296 www.mobileaccess.org On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:31 AM, Luca wrote: I agree, i was expecting a lot more from vo in lion... look, two years have passed since last release, and what have you new? ok activities, single navigation letter (which could have been made better...), international voices (very buggy, cant deny it...), and new drag and drop... Well in two years only these things is a little on my opinion.. Braille support is terrible, whe told them, wrote a lot of mail... and nothing has changed. Still You cannot do decent word processing with vo, no tables, no footnnotes detection, no title/list detection... Ok some of these things you can do wiith pages but in an extremely convoluted and non efficient way.. And what about numbers? you can use it in a very basic way only... And i am not speaking of bugs, those i hope will be fixed.. but there are quite significant ones -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I agree with the things said here, take the ITunes bugs for instance. I can definitely see some sluggishness in Itunes behavior, but when i do a search for say a specific artist, and the list gets smaller, i don't have the sluggishness issues at all. I've got about 1 songs in my ITunes library and browsing through that entire list to find one specific song is unpractical for me, so even though i don't like the sluggishness, i, with my personal way of working with ITunes see it as a minor issue. It's a bit unfortunate that one no longer hears songs etc when scrolling only with arrows, but i can live with that, as long as i remember to interact with the tables. I've seen this behaviour elsewhere in Lion as well, so i can't help but thinking is this a way of Apple to make navigation more logical i mean in some places, you don't need to interact with things, and in other places you have to do it, this can confuse people and so they've made it so that you have to interact with lists, tables and the like to get speech, but if that's the case, i do wish they'd have it togglable with a check box, so that you could go back to the previous behaviour should you so wish. /Krister 24 jul 2011 kl. 21:27 skrev Lynn Schneider: I think definitely part of the problem is that, with a new OS, we do have to learn to do things in a different way, but I also wonder if we can isolate these problems to specific system configurations. I have an iMac with 4 GB RAM, 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo and I am not having the lag issues people are experiencing. I do get the strange com.apple.extras message on boot up, but it doesn't really bother me. I'm more intrigued about it than anything else. I don't notice much of a difference at all in boot up times, although I rarely reboot my iMac anyway. I don't doubt at all that people are having problems, but since some of us are having problems and others not, I wonder if we can try to isolate the issues instead of just saying how terrible things are? On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Tim Kilburn wrote: Hi, I would disagree with the premise that Apple is getting sloppy as well as the comment of Lion being riddled with bugs to the point of a Beta release. Apple's commitment to accessibility is evident through the improvements and modifications to VO and the group of Beta testers involved in its Beta phase. As mentioned in previous posts, most of the issues called bugs over the last few days of posting are simply a different way of doing things. Humans, for the most part, resist change. There are some exceptions but most of us get used to doing things in a certain way and are set back when things are changed/modified. That's partially why we here so much noise about VO not being as good as JAWS by many PC users and many early switchers. I, myself, have been a VO user since its introduction in 2005 and each time the new OS is released, I struggle with some of the new ways of doing things. This isn't to say that each of my struggles are bugs in the OS implementation, they are just hurdles for me because I'm used to doing things in a different way. So, in a nutshell, I take exception to comments on Apple's sloppiness. I agree that Lion is slower in booting, but if I don't turn my Mac off that often, then what's the big deal. I agree that there is quite a number of things done differently, but, you still can teach an old dog new tricks, and I'm game for it. Just my opinion. Later… On 2011-07-24, at 12:49 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
25 jul 2011 kl. 02:40 skrev matthew Dyer: If you remember when 10.6 was released, 10.6.1 came out with in a week of its first release. And i have read in the Swedish Macworld, that 10.7.1 is due out within a few weeks. I'm not worried at all and i as i said before don't even begin to dream of downgrading back to SL, there's too many goodies in Lion i will miss should i downgrade. Now if only i could figure out how to open a folder i created in Launchpad… /Krister -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow exist? Yes! It's just an observation/opinion people? It's not your spouce who won't... umm... I'm not finishing that... LOL! ROFL! You get the point. So in my defense, I ask jpeole, please be more gentle with me. I'm only trying to help you all, and make suggestions. I may come on harsh at times, I know I do, but for god sake, cut me some slack! I'm frustrated! Can you blame me? Are we not all at one point or another in life? Bluntly? Deal with it, or don't read my mail! It's not rocket science! OK, I'm not gonna keep ranting and raving about htis. I've said my peace and hopefully've been heard. Enough is enough, in all respect fiarness to all of you all. I rest my case. Chris. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I agree, i was expecting a lot more from vo in lion... look, two years have passed since last release, and what have you new? ok activities, single navigation letter (which could have been made better...), international voices (very buggy, cant deny it...), and new drag and drop... Well in two years only these things is a little on my opinion.. Braille support is terrible, whe told them, wrote a lot of mail... and nothing has changed. Still You cannot do decent word processing with vo, no tables, no footnnotes detection, no title/list detection... Ok some of these things you can do wiith pages but in an extremely convoluted and non efficient way.. And what about numbers? you can use it in a very basic way only... And i am not speaking of bugs, those i hope will be fixed.. but there are quite significant ones -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Alright alright, here's my rant/chat about Lion. I have my mixed opinions on the OS as it were, and mainly Voiceover. I do to some extent, feel that Apple didn't give as much thought to Voiceover, or didn't focus more on important areas and major bugs and correcting them. For someone like me, Item Chooser is a really big deal, as I frequent lots of web pages with thousands of items. I really only started to use the Mac the day SL came out, and I certainly don't remember seeing this many issues. I've had some pretty major things like VO refusing to go into menus, and sometimes even the dock. Turning VO off then on again still didn't cut it. The only thing that resolved the issue was to restart the OS itself. iTunes... Well, I'll rest that one a bit, due to issues really starting to hit in 10.3. mail: Well, for the most part its ok, and the viewing options can be changed really, so that's a user descression thing, and something I haven't played with enough to go striking that app down with opinions. Safari in general: Again, not sure. I'm not sure if I really like the downloads window on the toolbar, seeing as it seems to screw round with Voiceover focus when I move it back to the page. However, that's probably a bug that Apple overlooked. I do find it kind of irratating that Apple feel the need to stress new Voices as a feature, when there are other more broken things they could have spent time fixing, or at least somewhat considering. There is no way that I'm expecting the thing to be free of bugs, simply because that's just not the nature of new stuff. Take for example, a new kind of chocolate. You don't know how it will taste, so you are a bit unsure. You take a bight, and you don't think you like it as much as the old brand. However, you stick with it. After a certain time, you develop a fondness for it, and leave the old one dead in its tracks. End conclusion is, give the OS an update or two, then see how it goes. If much of this stuff is still not addressed, then its time to get worryed. P.S I can't say I'm all that impressed either with the Scansoft voices, especially the compact ones. What's the point of them anyway? I dunno why Apple didn't just make a bunch of new Voices of their own, and just leave that to iOS. Maybe its just me, but I think Realspeak is a rather over-used synth in general, and sounds very over priced. If Apple were to use something like Ivona instead, then I would be more than happy. Once an update comes ouut, I might post back another review. Catcha later, James On 7/25/11, Krister Ekstrom kris...@kristersplace.com wrote: 25 jul 2011 kl. 02:40 skrev matthew Dyer: If you remember when 10.6 was released, 10.6.1 came out with in a week of its first release. And i have read in the Swedish Macworld, that 10.7.1 is due out within a few weeks. I'm not worried at all and i as i said before don't even begin to dream of downgrading back to SL, there's too many goodies in Lion i will miss should i downgrade. Now if only i could figure out how to open a folder i created in Launchpad… /Krister -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Hi, In regards to the iWork stuff, Its kinda unfair to pin that on the Lion OS in my opinion. after all, There has not been a major update to iWorks since 2009. Lets see what the next big release will mean for accessibility. And in regards to the lack of new features, hmm, I don't know. For example, How many new features exist in jaws 12 that weren't there in jaws 10? I'm not sure how many new features one can really cram into a screen reader in 2 years. And as far as the bugs go, its not like Apple is going to delay Their new OS because of some Voiceover bugs. Lets give it an update or 2 to see what happens? Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com Twitter Skype: rwalker296 www.mobileaccess.org On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:31 AM, Luca wrote: I agree, i was expecting a lot more from vo in lion... look, two years have passed since last release, and what have you new? ok activities, single navigation letter (which could have been made better...), international voices (very buggy, cant deny it...), and new drag and drop... Well in two years only these things is a little on my opinion.. Braille support is terrible, whe told them, wrote a lot of mail... and nothing has changed. Still You cannot do decent word processing with vo, no tables, no footnnotes detection, no title/list detection... Ok some of these things you can do wiith pages but in an extremely convoluted and non efficient way.. And what about numbers? you can use it in a very basic way only... And i am not speaking of bugs, those i hope will be fixed.. but there are quite significant ones -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
The problem with using Ivona voices is that they're only available in … yes you guessed it English, that's why i love the realspeak voices, they are actually available in my language, Swedish, which means that even i can go to a Mac anywhere, hit cmd+f5 and it comes up talking in my language. And i don't think the Realspeak voices are so bad, they certainly have less pronunciation issues, at least in Swedish than the highly aclaimed Acapella voices. /Krister 25 jul 2011 kl. 14:41 skrev James Malone: Alright alright, here's my rant/chat about Lion. I have my mixed opinions on the OS as it were, and mainly Voiceover. I do to some extent, feel that Apple didn't give as much thought to Voiceover, or didn't focus more on important areas and major bugs and correcting them. For someone like me, Item Chooser is a really big deal, as I frequent lots of web pages with thousands of items. I really only started to use the Mac the day SL came out, and I certainly don't remember seeing this many issues. I've had some pretty major things like VO refusing to go into menus, and sometimes even the dock. Turning VO off then on again still didn't cut it. The only thing that resolved the issue was to restart the OS itself. iTunes... Well, I'll rest that one a bit, due to issues really starting to hit in 10.3. mail: Well, for the most part its ok, and the viewing options can be changed really, so that's a user descression thing, and something I haven't played with enough to go striking that app down with opinions. Safari in general: Again, not sure. I'm not sure if I really like the downloads window on the toolbar, seeing as it seems to screw round with Voiceover focus when I move it back to the page. However, that's probably a bug that Apple overlooked. I do find it kind of irratating that Apple feel the need to stress new Voices as a feature, when there are other more broken things they could have spent time fixing, or at least somewhat considering. There is no way that I'm expecting the thing to be free of bugs, simply because that's just not the nature of new stuff. Take for example, a new kind of chocolate. You don't know how it will taste, so you are a bit unsure. You take a bight, and you don't think you like it as much as the old brand. However, you stick with it. After a certain time, you develop a fondness for it, and leave the old one dead in its tracks. End conclusion is, give the OS an update or two, then see how it goes. If much of this stuff is still not addressed, then its time to get worryed. P.S I can't say I'm all that impressed either with the Scansoft voices, especially the compact ones. What's the point of them anyway? I dunno why Apple didn't just make a bunch of new Voices of their own, and just leave that to iOS. Maybe its just me, but I think Realspeak is a rather over-used synth in general, and sounds very over priced. If Apple were to use something like Ivona instead, then I would be more than happy. Once an update comes ouut, I might post back another review. Catcha later, James On 7/25/11, Krister Ekstrom kris...@kristersplace.com wrote: 25 jul 2011 kl. 02:40 skrev matthew Dyer: If you remember when 10.6 was released, 10.6.1 came out with in a week of its first release. And i have read in the Swedish Macworld, that 10.7.1 is due out within a few weeks. I'm not worried at all and i as i said before don't even begin to dream of downgrading back to SL, there's too many goodies in Lion i will miss should i downgrade. Now if only i could figure out how to open a folder i created in Launchpad… /Krister -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Live regions what are they - was Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I think I can fill in some gaps here. I haven't upgraded to Lion yet but I do know about live regions on web pages. This is part of the w3c spec for ARIA or Accessible Rich Internet Applications and has been supported on other browser on other platforms for some time now. Generally it's used for areas on the page which get updated and the web developer wants the screen reader to announce the changes. The common example is a web-based chat where you want it to read any incoming messages added to the chat log. Normally the only way to notice changed content in a particular spot on a page is to move focus away and back or set a hot spot manually. Live region attributes added by the web developer tell the browser to pass changes to the assistive technology to be announced. There are also some settings like only read the changed text and whether to defer to any other stuff already being read. For example, the chat log might be one big container with new items inserted at the end. So when a new item is added we only want the new item read, not the entire chat log. More on the w3c's spec site here: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/terms#def_liveregion http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#attrs_liveregions CB On 7/23/11 8:20 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: Hello. This whole discussion about live regions and the like starts to make me wonder a bit. What are live regions and what are they supposed to do for us? I know they are a part of the area or how it's spelled thing, but what are they doing and why would we want them. This doesn't apply only to VO but also to other screen readers on other platforms that support Area. If a live region updates a page such that the whole page changes and thus forces the cursor back to the beginning of a page after each update, do we really want those areas? What it all boils down to, i guess, is that in VOs case, there must be a reason for that Live areas check box to be there and checked and for why they can be unchecked. I would love to know that reason. /Krister 23 jul 2011 kl. 05:28 skrev Christopher-Mark Gilland: It's OK Quinn, don't worry about it. As you said, we all make mistakes. As far as I see it, your apologise greatly is accepted. I wonder if this would solve the issue with my item chooser list. Now you got me curious! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberlquinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionariesmacvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Thought I would updatethis quickly. I figured out why safari was being Soleil D and why I was having so many problems with voice over in Safari. Why was sitting on my computer I was thinking maybe I should check the voice over Control Panel thing. I did so and is the web category in the voice over control panel at the very bottom of the settings page there is a checkbox that in lion comes checked. This check boxes called live regions. In a nutshell what it does is it updates parts of the website that are continually updated for example ad banners and things like that. I uncheck the checkbox and now everything seems to be working fine. So unless you really know what that checkbox does on CheckIt and life will be made much easier at least it was for me. I didn't mean to be so critical of apple in my last post. As a matter of fact being a recent Windows convert I have found that Apple accessibility is amazing. And yes I do agree that we do need to show some patients on our part. Everyone makes mistakes it's just hard to deal with those mistakes when voice over and the other Mac accessibility features are the only way in which you have access to all your information. I don't mean this to directly criticize anyone on this blog. I have found the Mac blog very helpful in solving and answering questions. The criticism is more geared toward myself as self-criticism. On Jul 22, 9:50 pm, Christopher-Mark Gillandclgillan...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from
Re: Live regions what are they - was Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Which would all make web based chat and apps better than any Mac app currently is, especially if you can do neat things like have a live region with apps like Adium in the future if VO will support that, saving the need to rely on Growl. I think FB chat on the website may end up being the way to chat for many of us though. Cheers Dave On 25 Jul 2011, at 15:48, Chris Blouch wrote: I think I can fill in some gaps here. I haven't upgraded to Lion yet but I do know about live regions on web pages. This is part of the w3c spec for ARIA or Accessible Rich Internet Applications and has been supported on other browser on other platforms for some time now. Generally it's used for areas on the page which get updated and the web developer wants the screen reader to announce the changes. The common example is a web-based chat where you want it to read any incoming messages added to the chat log. Normally the only way to notice changed content in a particular spot on a page is to move focus away and back or set a hot spot manually. Live region attributes added by the web developer tell the browser to pass changes to the assistive technology to be announced. There are also some settings like only read the changed text and whether to defer to any other stuff already being read. For example, the chat log might be one big container with new items inserted at the end. So when a new item is added we only want the new item read, not the entire chat log. More on the w3c's spec site here: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/terms#def_liveregion http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#attrs_liveregions CB On 7/23/11 8:20 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: Hello. This whole discussion about live regions and the like starts to make me wonder a bit. What are live regions and what are they supposed to do for us? I know they are a part of the area or how it's spelled thing, but what are they doing and why would we want them. This doesn't apply only to VO but also to other screen readers on other platforms that support Area. If a live region updates a page such that the whole page changes and thus forces the cursor back to the beginning of a page after each update, do we really want those areas? What it all boils down to, i guess, is that in VOs case, there must be a reason for that Live areas check box to be there and checked and for why they can be unchecked. I would love to know that reason. /Krister 23 jul 2011 kl. 05:28 skrev Christopher-Mark Gilland: It's OK Quinn, don't worry about it. As you said, we all make mistakes. As far as I see it, your apologise greatly is accepted. I wonder if this would solve the issue with my item chooser list. Now you got me curious! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberlquinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionariesmacvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Thought I would updatethis quickly. I figured out why safari was being Soleil D and why I was having so many problems with voice over in Safari. Why was sitting on my computer I was thinking maybe I should check the voice over Control Panel thing. I did so and is the web category in the voice over control panel at the very bottom of the settings page there is a checkbox that in lion comes checked. This check boxes called live regions. In a nutshell what it does is it updates parts of the website that are continually updated for example ad banners and things like that. I uncheck the checkbox and now everything seems to be working fine. So unless you really know what that checkbox does on CheckIt and life will be made much easier at least it was for me. I didn't mean to be so critical of apple in my last post. As a matter of fact being a recent Windows convert I have found that Apple accessibility is amazing. And yes I do agree that we do need to show some patients on our part. Everyone makes mistakes it's just hard to deal with those mistakes when voice over and the other Mac accessibility features are the only way in which you have access to all your information. I don't mean this to directly criticize anyone on this blog. I have found the Mac blog very helpful in solving and answering questions. The criticism is more geared toward myself as self-criticism. On Jul 22, 9:50 pm, Christopher-Mark Gillandclgillan...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I
Re: Live regions what are they - was Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Generally ARIA live regions are a addition to standard HTML so while it's possible this type of stuff could migrate to desktop apps, it's really meant as a web-application helper. I have heard that Flash is or will adopt ARIA for their ActionScript language for similar purposes, but my previous posts already document the many hurdles to Flash working accessibly on any platform, not to mention OSX. CB On 7/25/11 10:57 AM, David Taylor wrote: Which would all make web based chat and apps better than any Mac app currently is, especially if you can do neat things like have a live region with apps like Adium in the future if VO will support that, saving the need to rely on Growl. I think FB chat on the website may end up being the way to chat for many of us though. Cheers Dave On 25 Jul 2011, at 15:48, Chris Blouch wrote: I think I can fill in some gaps here. I haven't upgraded to Lion yet but I do know about live regions on web pages. This is part of the w3c spec for ARIA or Accessible Rich Internet Applications and has been supported on other browser on other platforms for some time now. Generally it's used for areas on the page which get updated and the web developer wants the screen reader to announce the changes. The common example is a web-based chat where you want it to read any incoming messages added to the chat log. Normally the only way to notice changed content in a particular spot on a page is to move focus away and back or set a hot spot manually. Live region attributes added by the web developer tell the browser to pass changes to the assistive technology to be announced. There are also some settings like only read the changed text and whether to defer to any other stuff already being read. For example, the chat log might be one big container with new items inserted at the end. So when a new item is added we only want the new item read, not the entire chat log. More on the w3c's spec site here: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/terms#def_liveregion http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#attrs_liveregions CB On 7/23/11 8:20 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: Hello. This whole discussion about live regions and the like starts to make me wonder a bit. What are live regions and what are they supposed to do for us? I know they are a part of the area or how it's spelled thing, but what are they doing and why would we want them. This doesn't apply only to VO but also to other screen readers on other platforms that support Area. If a live region updates a page such that the whole page changes and thus forces the cursor back to the beginning of a page after each update, do we really want those areas? What it all boils down to, i guess, is that in VOs case, there must be a reason for that Live areas check box to be there and checked and for why they can be unchecked. I would love to know that reason. /Krister 23 jul 2011 kl. 05:28 skrev Christopher-Mark Gilland: It's OK Quinn, don't worry about it. As you said, we all make mistakes. As far as I see it, your apologise greatly is accepted. I wonder if this would solve the issue with my item chooser list. Now you got me curious! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberlquinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionariesmacvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Thought I would updatethis quickly. I figured out why safari was being Soleil D and why I was having so many problems with voice over in Safari. Why was sitting on my computer I was thinking maybe I should check the voice over Control Panel thing. I did so and is the web category in the voice over control panel at the very bottom of the settings page there is a checkbox that in lion comes checked. This check boxes called live regions. In a nutshell what it does is it updates parts of the website that are continually updated for example ad banners and things like that. I uncheck the checkbox and now everything seems to be working fine. So unless you really know what that checkbox does on CheckIt and life will be made much easier at least it was for me. I didn't mean to be so critical of apple in my last post. As a matter of fact being a recent Windows convert I have found that Apple accessibility is amazing. And yes I do agree that we do need to show some patients on our part. Everyone makes mistakes it's just hard to deal with those mistakes when voice over and the other Mac accessibility features are the only way in which you have access to all your information. I don't mean this to directly criticize anyone on this blog. I have found the Mac blog very helpful in solving and answering questions. The criticism is more geared toward myself as self-criticism. On Jul 22, 9:50 pm, Christopher-Mark Gillandclgillan...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I am certainly glad that I don't see nearly as many bugs in VoiceOver as you will find in the shark. - Original Message - From: Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Hi, In regards to the iWork stuff, Its kinda unfair to pin that on the Lion OS in my opinion. after all, There has not been a major update to iWorks since 2009. Lets see what the next big release will mean for accessibility. And in regards to the lack of new features, hmm, I don't know. For example, How many new features exist in jaws 12 that weren't there in jaws 10? I'm not sure how many new features one can really cram into a screen reader in 2 years. And as far as the bugs go, its not like Apple is going to delay Their new OS because of some Voiceover bugs. Lets give it an update or 2 to see what happens? Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com Twitter Skype: rwalker296 www.mobileaccess.org On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:31 AM, Luca wrote: I agree, i was expecting a lot more from vo in lion... look, two years have passed since last release, and what have you new? ok activities, single navigation letter (which could have been made better...), international voices (very buggy, cant deny it...), and new drag and drop... Well in two years only these things is a little on my opinion.. Braille support is terrible, whe told them, wrote a lot of mail... and nothing has changed. Still You cannot do decent word processing with vo, no tables, no footnnotes detection, no title/list detection... Ok some of these things you can do wiith pages but in an extremely convoluted and non efficient way.. And what about numbers? you can use it in a very basic way only... And i am not speaking of bugs, those i hope will be fixed.. but there are quite significant ones -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I would also ask, what does voiceover not do that you need it to do? I would say it does most things the windows screen readers do, and in some ways does many of them better. On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:12 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hi, In regards to the iWork stuff, Its kinda unfair to pin that on the Lion OS in my opinion. after all, There has not been a major update to iWorks since 2009. Lets see what the next big release will mean for accessibility. And in regards to the lack of new features, hmm, I don't know. For example, How many new features exist in jaws 12 that weren't there in jaws 10? I'm not sure how many new features one can really cram into a screen reader in 2 years. And as far as the bugs go, its not like Apple is going to delay Their new OS because of some Voiceover bugs. Lets give it an update or 2 to see what happens? Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com Twitter Skype: rwalker296 www.mobileaccess.org On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:31 AM, Luca wrote: I agree, i was expecting a lot more from vo in lion... look, two years have passed since last release, and what have you new? ok activities, single navigation letter (which could have been made better...), international voices (very buggy, cant deny it...), and new drag and drop... Well in two years only these things is a little on my opinion.. Braille support is terrible, whe told them, wrote a lot of mail... and nothing has changed. Still You cannot do decent word processing with vo, no tables, no footnnotes detection, no title/list detection... Ok some of these things you can do wiith pages but in an extremely convoluted and non efficient way.. And what about numbers? you can use it in a very basic way only... And i am not speaking of bugs, those i hope will be fixed.. but there are quite significant ones -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Hi David: Can you be bribed? On Jul 25, 2011, at 7:24 PM, David Tanner wrote: I am certainly glad that I don't see nearly as many bugs in VoiceOver as you will find in the shark. - Original Message - From: Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Hi, In regards to the iWork stuff, Its kinda unfair to pin that on the Lion OS in my opinion. after all, There has not been a major update to iWorks since 2009. Lets see what the next big release will mean for accessibility. And in regards to the lack of new features, hmm, I don't know. For example, How many new features exist in jaws 12 that weren't there in jaws 10? I'm not sure how many new features one can really cram into a screen reader in 2 years. And as far as the bugs go, its not like Apple is going to delay Their new OS because of some Voiceover bugs. Lets give it an update or 2 to see what happens? Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com Twitter Skype: rwalker296 www.mobileaccess.org On Jul 25, 2011, at 8:31 AM, Luca wrote: I agree, i was expecting a lot more from vo in lion... look, two years have passed since last release, and what have you new? ok activities, single navigation letter (which could have been made better...), international voices (very buggy, cant deny it...), and new drag and drop... Well in two years only these things is a little on my opinion.. Braille support is terrible, whe told them, wrote a lot of mail... and nothing has changed. Still You cannot do decent word processing with vo, no tables, no footnnotes detection, no title/list detection... Ok some of these things you can do wiith pages but in an extremely convoluted and non efficient way.. And what about numbers? you can use it in a very basic way only... And i am not speaking of bugs, those i hope will be fixed.. but there are quite significant ones -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
As i understand it, and i can be wrong, you'll have to tell Mail if you want to see related mails from other mailboxes or not. This could be done from the view menu or from preferences if you always wanted to have mails from other mailboxes included. /Krister 23 jul 2011 kl. 22:06 skrev Mary Otten: David, I am curious. I've been using the mail in SL and am reasonably happy with its efficiency. I gather that you can keep the classic view if you want it, but I'd like to know what you changed and what you like about the new way with your changes as opposed to the Snow Leopard implementation. I am a fan of the preview pane, and I like hearing just the column I'm in when in the messages table. I have not used the thread view in SL. I guess my current way of doing things is as close to the mail app I've used for a decade or so on my pc. The idea of viewing mail by conversation seems like a good thing, but I read somewhere in a review of Lion that the new mail view includes not just email in the inbox, but also messages from other boxes as well. Since I'm using IMap, that would mean, I think, that you'd see messages from the gmail trash, which would make that conversation view kind of a pain. anyway, my basic question is, what changes did you make and what do you like better about it? Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I enjoy reading email on the mac, mainly because I can interact with the messages table, and read just the subject of each message, I get through my email much faster than I can in windows, once I upgrade to lion, I will probably switch to the classic view. I can't think of any advantage to doing email in windows. On Jul 23, 2011, at 2:40 PM, David Tanner wrote: I am glad that you found what you needed on the iPad. Meantime, I decided I would jump into mail and just see what everybody was complaining about. Well, the first thing I did was to make a few changes that I personally prefer and I have to say that thus far, after reading about 25 messages I think I am happier with mail now than I was before when I quit using the email on the Mac back around February. I may actually consider changing and reading my email on the Mac. On Jul 22, 2011, at 11:56 PM, carolyn Haas wrote: Hi David: Very well said. It's so easy to gripe and start blaming someone when what we did before doesn't work the same anymore. I like the way you've pointed this out. It sounds much better than I could have done. Take care Oh, and BTW: found that iPad setting. Thanks again. Carolyn On Jul 22, 2011, at 10:13 PM, David Tanner wrote: How much of the problems that people are having is caused because the OS is new, and things are done a bit different and it is too soon to have learned the new ways of doing things in the new OS. There a large majority of those who are complaining of problems who are new or relatively new to Apple in the first place, and now they are trying to deal with a new operating system which was announced to have way over 200 changes and new features. People need to realize that it is going to take more than 24 hours to learn a new operating system that has over 250 changes and new features. And, how many of these folks have sat down with the list of new features and even read through them to learn how to use those new features? Let's see where things are a month from now. I bet by then there are going to be a lot of changed attitudes about the whole Lion experience. - Original Message - From: Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow exist? Yes! It's just an observation/opinion people? It's not your spouce who won't... umm... I'm not finishing that... LOL! ROFL! You get the point. So in my defense, I ask jpeole, please be more gentle with me. I'm only trying to help you all, and make suggestions. I may come on harsh at times, I know I do, but for god sake, cut me some slack! I'm frustrated! Can you blame me? Are we not all at one point or another in life? Bluntly? Deal with it, or don't read my mail! It's not rocket science! OK, I'm not gonna keep ranting
RE: Voice over lag and other lion issues
After seeing your message, I'm ready to cave and ask my question. What is the best way to revert to Snow Leopard. I used CCC to backup my drive right before I bought Lion, and I know that drive works perfectly. My main concern is getting rid of Lion's recovery partician if I revert. Would I boot from my external drive, format the mac's internal drive and then clone the external drive back onto it? I don't want to try reverting without clear instructions, but ever since I got lion, as much as I like the new voices, I just don't like anything else about it, so would like to give it another chance once some of the bugs have been sorted. I have another external drive handy, so might back lion up onto that so that I'll have all the voices ready to go whenever I'm ready to give it another chance, but for the time being, I honestly think I'd be happier reverting; I just need to know the best, safest way to do it that will insure getting rid of lion's recovery partician. Thanks! Missy -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Snyder Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 2:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I think definitely part of the problem is that, with a new OS, we do have to learn to do things in a different way, but I also wonder if we can isolate these problems to specific system configurations. I have an iMac with 4 GB RAM, 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo and I am not having the lag issues people are experiencing. I do get the strange com.apple.extras message on boot up, but it doesn't really bother me. I'm more intrigued about it than anything else. I don't notice much of a difference at all in boot up times, although I rarely reboot my iMac anyway. I don't doubt at all that people are having problems, but since some of us are having problems and others not, I wonder if we can try to isolate the issues instead of just saying how terrible things are? On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Tim Kilburn wrote: Hi, I would disagree with the premise that Apple is getting sloppy as well as the comment of Lion being riddled with bugs to the point of a Beta release. Apple's commitment to accessibility is evident through the improvements and modifications to VO and the group of Beta testers involved in its Beta phase. As mentioned in previous posts, most of the issues called bugs over the last few days of posting are simply a different way of doing things. Humans, for the most part, resist change. There are some exceptions but most of us get used to doing things in a certain way and are set back when things are changed/modified. That's partially why we here so much noise about VO not being as good as JAWS by many PC users and many early switchers. I, myself, have been a VO user since its introduction in 2005 and each time the new OS is released, I struggle with some of the new ways of doing things. This isn't to say that each of my struggles are bugs in the OS implementation, they are just hurdles for me because I'm used to doing things in a different way. So, in a nutshell, I take exception to comments on Apple's sloppiness. I agree that Lion is slower in booting, but if I don't turn my Mac off that often, then what's the big deal. I agree that there is quite a number of things done differently, but, you still can teach an old dog new tricks, and I'm game for it. Just my opinion. Later… On 2011-07-24, at 12:49 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I have to fully agree with Tim. A great deal of what I have read has been simply a result of changes to how people are used to doing things and not being familiar with those changes. Yes, some things work differently than they did in SL, but this does not equate to a bug in the least. I think a lot of people are just reacting to those changes and others who are trying to decide whether or not to install Lion are being effected by the fact that a lot of the list traffic is being derived from the simple reality that Lion is just 4 days old and folks have not completely gotten their heads around what Apple has changed. In all honesty, just install Lion, work with it and like Snow Leopard, or any other operating system you have used, you will adapt and get used to it. Whatever actual bugs currently exist will be fixed as time goes on. Take Care John Panarese jpanar...@gmail.com On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Tim Kilburn wrote: Hi, I would disagree with the premise that Apple is getting sloppy as well as the comment of Lion being riddled with bugs to the point of a Beta release. Apple's commitment to accessibility is evident through the improvements and modifications to VO and the group of Beta testers involved in its Beta phase. As mentioned in previous posts, most of the issues called bugs over the last few days of posting are simply a different way of doing things. Humans, for the most part, resist change. There are some exceptions but most of us get used to doing things in a certain way and are set back when things are changed/modified. That's partially why we here so much noise about VO not being as good as JAWS by many PC users and many early switchers. I, myself, have been a VO user since its introduction in 2005 and each time the new OS is released, I struggle with some of the new ways of doing things. This isn't to say that each of my struggles are bugs in the OS implementation, they are just hurdles for me because I'm used to doing things in a different way. So, in a nutshell, I take exception to comments on Apple's sloppiness. I agree that Lion is slower in booting, but if I don't turn my Mac off that often, then what's the big deal. I agree that there is quite a number of things done differently, but, you still can teach an old dog new tricks, and I'm game for it. Just my opinion. Later… On 2011-07-24, at 12:49 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Hey Chris. The only thing that concerns me, is how can I get back up to ITunes 10.3, without going all the way to 10.4 in software update should I choose to downgrade back to SL. I don't think I will, but, just in case. I do have a dmg of 10.3, but when I tried installing it over top of 10.4, it obviously didn't work. Chris. On Jul 24, 2011, at 2:49 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow exist? Yes! It's just an observation/opinion people? It's not your spouce who won't... umm... I'm not finishing that... LOL! ROFL! You get the point
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Tim, thank you. I've been thinking this for the last couple days. I'm not trying to minimise the difficulties people are experiencing. I'm aware that I've been lucky so far and only encountered bugs that are more of a nuisance than anything else, and if I were having the real issues like Alex lagging during typing, or significantly reduced battery drain, I'd be extremely disappointed. But even so, it seems like every time there's any kind of accessibility hiccup, we start questioning whether Apple's commitment to Voiceover has run its course. I don't think for a second we should sit quietly and not let them know about the issues we come across, but at some point, don't we have to start trusting that they're actually interested in doing this right? They've made almost every major product in their lineup accessible out of the box, at no extra cost to us; they've got a dedicated email just for accessibility concerns; and every OS upgrade on both their platforms has brought significant Voiceover enhancements. I agree that the way Apple runs its betas possibly means more problems slip past to the final release product, but I don't think that's an issue related only to Voiceover, and it doesn't indicate a lot about what their commitment is. For all we got bugs in Lion, we got some pretty good changes too. Activities are already proving really useful, and will only get better as time goes on and people think of different uses for them. Non-English language support out of the box is something people have been asking for for years, and we got that; the VO method of drag and drop in Lion is a huge improvement on the previous method. Even the things that I think could use a little work, like single letter navigation, are still changes for the better, and that's not taking into account features I haven't even really played with, like the quick search function. When the next OS comes out and there are no meaningful changes, then I'll start to worry. Until then, I'm going to assume the genuine bugs will get squashed over time, and they'll keep working to incorporate our feedback. On Jul 24, 8:07 pm, Tim Kilburn kilbu...@shaw.ca wrote: Hi, I would disagree with the premise that Apple is getting sloppy as well as the comment of Lion being riddled with bugs to the point of a Beta release. Apple's commitment to accessibility is evident through the improvements and modifications to VO and the group of Beta testers involved in its Beta phase. As mentioned in previous posts, most of the issues called bugs over the last few days of posting are simply a different way of doing things. Humans, for the most part, resist change. There are some exceptions but most of us get used to doing things in a certain way and are set back when things are changed/modified. That's partially why we here so much noise about VO not being as good as JAWS by many PC users and many early switchers. I, myself, have been a VO user since its introduction in 2005 and each time the new OS is released, I struggle with some of the new ways of doing things. This isn't to say that each of my struggles are bugs in the OS implementation, they are just hurdles for me because I'm used to doing things in a different way. So, in a nutshell, I take exception to comments on Apple's sloppiness. I agree that Lion is slower in booting, but if I don't turn my Mac off that often, then what's the big deal. I agree that there is quite a number of things done differently, but, you still can teach an old dog new tricks, and I'm game for it. Just my opinion. Later… On 2011-07-24, at 12:49 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
You referenced something called quick search, what is that? Chris. - Original Message - From: Laura M laura.mcgl...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 6:02 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Tim, thank you. I've been thinking this for the last couple days. I'm not trying to minimise the difficulties people are experiencing. I'm aware that I've been lucky so far and only encountered bugs that are more of a nuisance than anything else, and if I were having the real issues like Alex lagging during typing, or significantly reduced battery drain, I'd be extremely disappointed. But even so, it seems like every time there's any kind of accessibility hiccup, we start questioning whether Apple's commitment to Voiceover has run its course. I don't think for a second we should sit quietly and not let them know about the issues we come across, but at some point, don't we have to start trusting that they're actually interested in doing this right? They've made almost every major product in their lineup accessible out of the box, at no extra cost to us; they've got a dedicated email just for accessibility concerns; and every OS upgrade on both their platforms has brought significant Voiceover enhancements. I agree that the way Apple runs its betas possibly means more problems slip past to the final release product, but I don't think that's an issue related only to Voiceover, and it doesn't indicate a lot about what their commitment is. For all we got bugs in Lion, we got some pretty good changes too. Activities are already proving really useful, and will only get better as time goes on and people think of different uses for them. Non-English language support out of the box is something people have been asking for for years, and we got that; the VO method of drag and drop in Lion is a huge improvement on the previous method. Even the things that I think could use a little work, like single letter navigation, are still changes for the better, and that's not taking into account features I haven't even really played with, like the quick search function. When the next OS comes out and there are no meaningful changes, then I'll start to worry. Until then, I'm going to assume the genuine bugs will get squashed over time, and they'll keep working to incorporate our feedback. On Jul 24, 8:07 pm, Tim Kilburn kilbu...@shaw.ca wrote: Hi, I would disagree with the premise that Apple is getting sloppy as well as the comment of Lion being riddled with bugs to the point of a Beta release. Apple's commitment to accessibility is evident through the improvements and modifications to VO and the group of Beta testers involved in its Beta phase. As mentioned in previous posts, most of the issues called bugs over the last few days of posting are simply a different way of doing things. Humans, for the most part, resist change. There are some exceptions but most of us get used to doing things in a certain way and are set back when things are changed/modified. That's partially why we here so much noise about VO not being as good as JAWS by many PC users and many early switchers. I, myself, have been a VO user since its introduction in 2005 and each time the new OS is released, I struggle with some of the new ways of doing things. This isn't to say that each of my struggles are bugs in the OS implementation, they are just hurdles for me because I'm used to doing things in a different way. So, in a nutshell, I take exception to comments on Apple's sloppiness. I agree that Lion is slower in booting, but if I don't turn my Mac off that often, then what's the big deal. I agree that there is quite a number of things done differently, but, you still can teach an old dog new tricks, and I'm game for it. Just my opinion. Later… On 2011-07-24, at 12:49 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. Friendly, Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Hi all, Let me first say that at the moment I am still using sl. This is only do to the fact that I do not have the $30 rite now, but hope to have the money very soon. Now hear some of the problems that people are talking about, I have no daught that apple will fix them in time. I will take the itunes bug whare it is very slow to respond and does not read in the table of songs or sorses table for example. I have reported this to apple and though I have not heard any responce, I know that the more people the contac them about it, the more apple will fix it. I have no daught that apple is aware of the bugs that people are talking about and they will be fixed. If you remember when 10.6 was released, 10.6.1 came out with in a week of its first release. That is just my thoughts on this hole thing. Matthew matthew Dyer e-mail/msn: ilovecountrymusic...@gmail.com AIM: mattdy1 Yahoo: md1616 twitter: mdyer1. Facebook: ilovecountrymusic...@gmail.com Skype: graduater2004 On Jul 22, 2011, at 10:23 PM, Quinn Haberl wrote: Yeah I know what you mean. I really hope that Apple is not using its commitment to those who have visual impairments. As far as I'm concerned at least with Mac OS X Snow Leopard Apple has stood out amongst the competition. I love my MacBook Pro and I love Apple because of accessibility. But I'm hoping that was the first lion update that they will fix many of these problems. I'm actually thinking about writing apple a kind you written letter that addresses many of the problems that have been mentioned. Yeah the busy problem only occurs in the Safari web browser. There is no other place on the Mac that I have these problems. I wish I could downgrade and go back to Snow Leopard. At least until they fix some of the problems. Can you guys think of that with subsequent updates these problems will be fixed or do you think Apple is losing its commitment to those who have disabilities? On Jul 22, 8:54 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: Oh believe me, if you've not been following the thread, the lag is the least of your worries! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberl quinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:06 PM Subject: Voice over lag and other lion issues Just wondering if anyone else out there notice that there are a lot of witches with Mac OSx lion invoice over. One of the things I noticed right away when trying to use the new voices is that you get the annoying message that says voiceover busy. I notice that it happens a lot in the Safari web browser. If anyone else is noticed these types of problems let me know. I don't think it is anything to do with my computer as I'm using the new core I seven MacBook Pro. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Yes, the one thing that I have noticed is that it keeps saying Safari Busy when I go to logoff of my banking website. I didn't have this problem before. Chris On Jul 22, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Quinn Haberl wrote: Just wondering if anyone else out there notice that there are a lot of witches with Mac OSx lion invoice over. One of the things I noticed right away when trying to use the new voices is that you get the annoying message that says voiceover busy. I notice that it happens a lot in the Safari web browser. If anyone else is noticed these types of problems let me know. I don't think it is anything to do with my computer as I'm using the new core I seven MacBook Pro. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Hi, Let me also add that for every major upgrade of a program or an operating system, especially if you add a lot of new features, there's bound to be new bugs as well. I wouldn't dream of ever downgrading, despite the fact that i can see some bugs, or things that are different from the way i work. Activities are reason enough for me not to downgrade. /Krister 23 jul 2011 kl. 04:30 skrev Chris Westbrook: I can't help but think that some of these problems are system specific. I haven't had any busy messages with webkit, ever since spotlight got done indexing my files my mac has ran as normal. Have you tried repairing permissions? That seems to have helped for me too. There was a message earlier today on how to do that. I think the new voices and the activities prove that apple is not losing it's commitment to accessibility, I think we just need to give them time to fix these things. And things like the new mail are just going to be a little different, even sighted people say that is different. I think over the next few weeks most people will probably be happy with the upgrade. Seems like much of what I read on the sighted community's impressions have been positive. On Jul 22, 2011, at 10:23 PM, Quinn Haberl wrote: Yeah I know what you mean. I really hope that Apple is not using its commitment to those who have visual impairments. As far as I'm concerned at least with Mac OS X Snow Leopard Apple has stood out amongst the competition. I love my MacBook Pro and I love Apple because of accessibility. But I'm hoping that was the first lion update that they will fix many of these problems. I'm actually thinking about writing apple a kind you written letter that addresses many of the problems that have been mentioned. Yeah the busy problem only occurs in the Safari web browser. There is no other place on the Mac that I have these problems. I wish I could downgrade and go back to Snow Leopard. At least until they fix some of the problems. Can you guys think of that with subsequent updates these problems will be fixed or do you think Apple is losing its commitment to those who have disabilities? On Jul 22, 8:54 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: Oh believe me, if you've not been following the thread, the lag is the least of your worries! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberl quinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:06 PM Subject: Voice over lag and other lion issues Just wondering if anyone else out there notice that there are a lot of witches with Mac OSx lion invoice over. One of the things I noticed right away when trying to use the new voices is that you get the annoying message that says voiceover busy. I notice that it happens a lot in the Safari web browser. If anyone else is noticed these types of problems let me know. I don't think it is anything to do with my computer as I'm using the new core I seven MacBook Pro. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
On the other hand, if we didn't pounce on a new operating system the day it came out, but rather waited until som bug fixes came along, how would we know what bugs needed to be fixed? How would we know how the system worked in practice? Maybe we should demand that there were public betas of the os, but until such time, there are bound to be pouncers and there are bound to be bugs that pass the private beta testers. and as someone pointed out some time ago, much of the quarks that we see could be people who don't really know about how to handle certain parts of the system. Take me and the Launchpad, for example. I could create a folder by moving apps on top of each other, but i can't for the life of me open the folder i created, to view what's inside. I'm sure it's only me who makes mistakes and if anyone knows how to do this, i would be thankful for advice. 'nough ranting now. /Krister 23 jul 2011 kl. 05:05 skrev Missy Hoppe: Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things
Live regions what are they - was Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Hello. This whole discussion about live regions and the like starts to make me wonder a bit. What are live regions and what are they supposed to do for us? I know they are a part of the area or how it's spelled thing, but what are they doing and why would we want them. This doesn't apply only to VO but also to other screen readers on other platforms that support Area. If a live region updates a page such that the whole page changes and thus forces the cursor back to the beginning of a page after each update, do we really want those areas? What it all boils down to, i guess, is that in VOs case, there must be a reason for that Live areas check box to be there and checked and for why they can be unchecked. I would love to know that reason. /Krister 23 jul 2011 kl. 05:28 skrev Christopher-Mark Gilland: It's OK Quinn, don't worry about it. As you said, we all make mistakes. As far as I see it, your apologise greatly is accepted. I wonder if this would solve the issue with my item chooser list. Now you got me curious! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberl quinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Thought I would updatethis quickly. I figured out why safari was being Soleil D and why I was having so many problems with voice over in Safari. Why was sitting on my computer I was thinking maybe I should check the voice over Control Panel thing. I did so and is the web category in the voice over control panel at the very bottom of the settings page there is a checkbox that in lion comes checked. This check boxes called live regions. In a nutshell what it does is it updates parts of the website that are continually updated for example ad banners and things like that. I uncheck the checkbox and now everything seems to be working fine. So unless you really know what that checkbox does on CheckIt and life will be made much easier at least it was for me. I didn't mean to be so critical of apple in my last post. As a matter of fact being a recent Windows convert I have found that Apple accessibility is amazing. And yes I do agree that we do need to show some patients on our part. Everyone makes mistakes it's just hard to deal with those mistakes when voice over and the other Mac accessibility features are the only way in which you have access to all your information. I don't mean this to directly criticize anyone on this blog. I have found the Mac blog very helpful in solving and answering questions. The criticism is more geared toward myself as self-criticism. On Jul 22, 9:50 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
In data Sabato 23 Luglio 2011 6.13.35, David Tanner david.tanner...@gmail.com ha scritto: How much of the problems that people are having is caused because the OS is new, and things are done a bit different and it is too soon to have learned the new ways of doing things in the new OS. There a large majority of those who are complaining of problems who are new or relatively new to Apple in the first place, and now they are trying to deal with a new operating system which was announced to have way over 200 changes and new features. Bugs are bugs, not different ways to do things. I am a registered developer and I am using Lion since first beta version. I reported several bugs, but none of them has been addressed. We really need to call things by theyr real name, if we want Vo to improove. This Lion, from an accessibility point of view, is not the best Apple's accomplishment. Braille output, in example, has not changed: it is just a lame voice mirror and it is unacceptable if you want call VO a Professional Screen reader. Braille verbosity has been poorly implemented. If we want talk about web navigation, just look at the newly implemented one key command. So, have your quicknav turned on, activate the one key commands and start browsing a web page. Now, jump to the next heading by pressing h, open web rotor with VO+u and select lines, in example. Now, go on browsing your web page using down arrow, then press h again. If you press down arrow to continue your line by line browsing, you'll find that the web rotor is no longer set to line but to heading. And what's about the translations? They are irritating, at least. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Well said, massimo. Donna On Jul 23, 2011, at 9:24 AM, Massimo wrote: In data Sabato 23 Luglio 2011 6.13.35, David Tanner david.tanner...@gmail.com ha scritto: How much of the problems that people are having is caused because the OS is new, and things are done a bit different and it is too soon to have learned the new ways of doing things in the new OS. There a large majority of those who are complaining of problems who are new or relatively new to Apple in the first place, and now they are trying to deal with a new operating system which was announced to have way over 200 changes and new features. Bugs are bugs, not different ways to do things. I am a registered developer and I am using Lion since first beta version. I reported several bugs, but none of them has been addressed. We really need to call things by theyr real name, if we want Vo to improove. This Lion, from an accessibility point of view, is not the best Apple's accomplishment. Braille output, in example, has not changed: it is just a lame voice mirror and it is unacceptable if you want call VO a Professional Screen reader. Braille verbosity has been poorly implemented. If we want talk about web navigation, just look at the newly implemented one key command. So, have your quicknav turned on, activate the one key commands and start browsing a web page. Now, jump to the next heading by pressing h, open web rotor with VO+u and select lines, in example. Now, go on browsing your web page using down arrow, then press h again. If you press down arrow to continue your line by line browsing, you'll find that the web rotor is no longer set to line but to heading. And what's about the translations? They are irritating, at least. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I am glad that you found what you needed on the iPad. Meantime, I decided I would jump into mail and just see what everybody was complaining about. Well, the first thing I did was to make a few changes that I personally prefer and I have to say that thus far, after reading about 25 messages I think I am happier with mail now than I was before when I quit using the email on the Mac back around February. I may actually consider changing and reading my email on the Mac. On Jul 22, 2011, at 11:56 PM, carolyn Haas wrote: Hi David: Very well said. It's so easy to gripe and start blaming someone when what we did before doesn't work the same anymore. I like the way you've pointed this out. It sounds much better than I could have done. Take care Oh, and BTW: found that iPad setting. Thanks again. Carolyn On Jul 22, 2011, at 10:13 PM, David Tanner wrote: How much of the problems that people are having is caused because the OS is new, and things are done a bit different and it is too soon to have learned the new ways of doing things in the new OS. There a large majority of those who are complaining of problems who are new or relatively new to Apple in the first place, and now they are trying to deal with a new operating system which was announced to have way over 200 changes and new features. People need to realize that it is going to take more than 24 hours to learn a new operating system that has over 250 changes and new features. And, how many of these folks have sat down with the list of new features and even read through them to learn how to use those new features? Let's see where things are a month from now. I bet by then there are going to be a lot of changed attitudes about the whole Lion experience. - Original Message - From: Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
In data Sabato 23 Luglio 2011 15.38.26, Donna Goodin goodi...@msu.edu ha scritto: Well said, massimo. And why don't we discuss the new international voices? I am italian, so, just for a moment, I'll talk about italian voices. Well, we have Silvia and Paolo. Paolo, the compact and the premium version too, are unbearable... I may say excruciating. Theyr prosody is more then unnatural. Silvia and Paolo premium version perpetrate a considerable number of pronunciation errors; in example, the italian word for thing cosa becomes csa, parola (word) becomes parla (he, she, it speaks!) and so on! If exclamation marks exist, maybe, they are there for a good reason. Scansoft voices, all of them, just ignore it. I mean... I do not expect from a synthetic voice the performances of a brilliant reciter, but, if and when an exclamation mark is there, I want to know that. The random pitch changes affecting Scansoft voices is just another bug Apple is aware of... And what about status menu? In snow leopard all you could see and reach was the system icons like bluetooth, Wi-Fi status, clock icon and battery status. What can you see in Leon, two years later? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
David, I am curious. I've been using the mail in SL and am reasonably happy with its efficiency. I gather that you can keep the classic view if you want it, but I'd like to know what you changed and what you like about the new way with your changes as opposed to the Snow Leopard implementation. I am a fan of the preview pane, and I like hearing just the column I'm in when in the messages table. I have not used the thread view in SL. I guess my current way of doing things is as close to the mail app I've used for a decade or so on my pc. The idea of viewing mail by conversation seems like a good thing, but I read somewhere in a review of Lion that the new mail view includes not just email in the inbox, but also messages from other boxes as well. Since I'm using IMap, that would mean, I think, that you'd see messages from the gmail trash, which would make that conversation view kind of a pain. anyway, my basic question is, what changes did you make and what do you like better about it? Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I understand exactly what you are saying, and what you are saying is essentially what I changed. I went into the view preferences and chose to sort by date instead of by thread. I have never liked reading by thread. I prefer to see messages according to when they were received and so I sat the view so I get the messages by when they are received. And, chose to have the newest message at the bottom of the list so that I read messages in the order they were received instead of latest message first. On Jul 23, 2011, at 3:06 PM, Mary Otten wrote: David, I am curious. I've been using the mail in SL and am reasonably happy with its efficiency. I gather that you can keep the classic view if you want it, but I'd like to know what you changed and what you like about the new way with your changes as opposed to the Snow Leopard implementation. I am a fan of the preview pane, and I like hearing just the column I'm in when in the messages table. I have not used the thread view in SL. I guess my current way of doing things is as close to the mail app I've used for a decade or so on my pc. The idea of viewing mail by conversation seems like a good thing, but I read somewhere in a review of Lion that the new mail view includes not just email in the inbox, but also messages from other boxes as well. Since I'm using IMap, that would mean, I think, that you'd see messages from the gmail trash, which would make that conversation view kind of a pain. anyway, my basic question is, what changes did you make and what do you like better about it? Mary Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Voice over lag and other lion issues
Just wondering if anyone else out there notice that there are a lot of witches with Mac OSx lion invoice over. One of the things I noticed right away when trying to use the new voices is that you get the annoying message that says voiceover busy. I notice that it happens a lot in the Safari web browser. If anyone else is noticed these types of problems let me know. I don't think it is anything to do with my computer as I'm using the new core I seven MacBook Pro. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
RE: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I've got the core I 7 macbook pro, too. I haven't heard voice-over busy messages yet, but that's only because with everything else going on, I haven't done much playing around in Saphari yet. I am really, really regretting the fact that I upgraded so soon; common sense told me not to do it, and I should have listened. I'm sorry I can't offer you any helpful advice, but for what it's worth, I can tell you that the nuance voices do seem to be marginally more responsive than Alex, at least on my machine. Missy -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Quinn Haberl Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:07 PM To: MacVisionaries Subject: Voice over lag and other lion issues Just wondering if anyone else out there notice that there are a lot of witches with Mac OSx lion invoice over. One of the things I noticed right away when trying to use the new voices is that you get the annoying message that says voiceover busy. I notice that it happens a lot in the Safari web browser. If anyone else is noticed these types of problems let me know. I don't think it is anything to do with my computer as I'm using the new core I seven MacBook Pro. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Oh believe me, if you've not been following the thread, the lag is the least of your worries! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberl quinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:06 PM Subject: Voice over lag and other lion issues Just wondering if anyone else out there notice that there are a lot of witches with Mac OSx lion invoice over. One of the things I noticed right away when trying to use the new voices is that you get the annoying message that says voiceover busy. I notice that it happens a lot in the Safari web browser. If anyone else is noticed these types of problems let me know. I don't think it is anything to do with my computer as I'm using the new core I seven MacBook Pro. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Yeah I know what you mean. I really hope that Apple is not using its commitment to those who have visual impairments. As far as I'm concerned at least with Mac OS X Snow Leopard Apple has stood out amongst the competition. I love my MacBook Pro and I love Apple because of accessibility. But I'm hoping that was the first lion update that they will fix many of these problems. I'm actually thinking about writing apple a kind you written letter that addresses many of the problems that have been mentioned. Yeah the busy problem only occurs in the Safari web browser. There is no other place on the Mac that I have these problems. I wish I could downgrade and go back to Snow Leopard. At least until they fix some of the problems. Can you guys think of that with subsequent updates these problems will be fixed or do you think Apple is losing its commitment to those who have disabilities? On Jul 22, 8:54 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: Oh believe me, if you've not been following the thread, the lag is the least of your worries! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberl quinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:06 PM Subject: Voice over lag and other lion issues Just wondering if anyone else out there notice that there are a lot of witches with Mac OSx lion invoice over. One of the things I noticed right away when trying to use the new voices is that you get the annoying message that says voiceover busy. I notice that it happens a lot in the Safari web browser. If anyone else is noticed these types of problems let me know. I don't think it is anything to do with my computer as I'm using the new core I seven MacBook Pro. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I can't help but think that some of these problems are system specific. I haven't had any busy messages with webkit, ever since spotlight got done indexing my files my mac has ran as normal. Have you tried repairing permissions? That seems to have helped for me too. There was a message earlier today on how to do that. I think the new voices and the activities prove that apple is not losing it's commitment to accessibility, I think we just need to give them time to fix these things. And things like the new mail are just going to be a little different, even sighted people say that is different. I think over the next few weeks most people will probably be happy with the upgrade. Seems like much of what I read on the sighted community's impressions have been positive. On Jul 22, 2011, at 10:23 PM, Quinn Haberl wrote: Yeah I know what you mean. I really hope that Apple is not using its commitment to those who have visual impairments. As far as I'm concerned at least with Mac OS X Snow Leopard Apple has stood out amongst the competition. I love my MacBook Pro and I love Apple because of accessibility. But I'm hoping that was the first lion update that they will fix many of these problems. I'm actually thinking about writing apple a kind you written letter that addresses many of the problems that have been mentioned. Yeah the busy problem only occurs in the Safari web browser. There is no other place on the Mac that I have these problems. I wish I could downgrade and go back to Snow Leopard. At least until they fix some of the problems. Can you guys think of that with subsequent updates these problems will be fixed or do you think Apple is losing its commitment to those who have disabilities? On Jul 22, 8:54 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: Oh believe me, if you've not been following the thread, the lag is the least of your worries! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberl quinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:06 PM Subject: Voice over lag and other lion issues Just wondering if anyone else out there notice that there are a lot of witches with Mac OSx lion invoice over. One of the things I noticed right away when trying to use the new voices is that you get the annoying message that says voiceover busy. I notice that it happens a lot in the Safari web browser. If anyone else is noticed these types of problems let me know. I don't think it is anything to do with my computer as I'm using the new core I seven MacBook Pro. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow exist? Yes! It's just an observation/opinion people? It's not your spouce who won't... umm... I'm not finishing that... LOL! ROFL! You get the point. So in my defense, I ask jpeole, please be more gentle with me. I'm only trying to help you all, and make suggestions. I may come on harsh at times, I know I do, but for god sake, cut me some slack! I'm frustrated! Can you blame me? Are we not all at one point or another in life? Bluntly? Deal with it, or don't read my mail! It's not rocket science! OK, I'm not gonna keep ranting and raving about htis. I've said my peace and hopefully've been heard. Enough is enough, in all respect fiarness to all of you all. I rest my case. Chris. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
RE: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues. Good night, all! -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Importance: High I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow exist? Yes! It's just an observation/opinion people? It's not your spouce who won't... umm... I'm not finishing that... LOL! ROFL! You get the point. So in my defense, I ask jpeole, please be more gentle with me. I'm only trying to help you all, and make suggestions. I may come on harsh at times, I know I do, but for god sake, cut me some slack! I'm frustrated! Can you blame me? Are we not all at one point or another in life? Bluntly? Deal with it, or don't read my mail! It's not rocket science! OK, I'm not gonna keep ranting and raving about htis. I've said my peace and hopefully've been heard. Enough is enough, in all respect fiarness to all of you all. I rest my case. Chris. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Thought I would updatethis quickly. I figured out why safari was being Soleil D and why I was having so many problems with voice over in Safari. Why was sitting on my computer I was thinking maybe I should check the voice over Control Panel thing. I did so and is the web category in the voice over control panel at the very bottom of the settings page there is a checkbox that in lion comes checked. This check boxes called live regions. In a nutshell what it does is it updates parts of the website that are continually updated for example ad banners and things like that. I uncheck the checkbox and now everything seems to be working fine. So unless you really know what that checkbox does on CheckIt and life will be made much easier at least it was for me. I didn't mean to be so critical of apple in my last post. As a matter of fact being a recent Windows convert I have found that Apple accessibility is amazing. And yes I do agree that we do need to show some patients on our part. Everyone makes mistakes it's just hard to deal with those mistakes when voice over and the other Mac accessibility features are the only way in which you have access to all your information. I don't mean this to directly criticize anyone on this blog. I have found the Mac blog very helpful in solving and answering questions. The criticism is more geared toward myself as self-criticism. On Jul 22, 9:50 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow exist? Yes! It's just an
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
hi cristopher. thanks for yourcorage. suner or later, day will understand. apple are very irresponsability. sorry for not tiping well. bod bless you brother. -Mensagem Original- From: Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:50 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow exist? Yes! It's just an observation/opinion people? It's not your spouce who won't... umm... I'm not finishing that... LOL! ROFL! You get the point. So in my defense, I ask jpeole, please be more gentle with me. I'm only trying to help you all, and make suggestions. I may come on harsh at times, I know I do, but for god sake, cut me some slack! I'm frustrated! Can you blame me? Are we not all at one point or another in life? Bluntly? Deal with it, or don't read my mail! It's not rocket science! OK, I'm not gonna keep ranting and raving about htis. I've said my peace and hopefully've been heard. Enough is enough, in all respect fiarness to all of you all. I rest my case. Chris. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
It's OK Quinn, don't worry about it. As you said, we all make mistakes. As far as I see it, your apologise greatly is accepted. I wonder if this would solve the issue with my item chooser list. Now you got me curious! Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberl quinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Thought I would updatethis quickly. I figured out why safari was being Soleil D and why I was having so many problems with voice over in Safari. Why was sitting on my computer I was thinking maybe I should check the voice over Control Panel thing. I did so and is the web category in the voice over control panel at the very bottom of the settings page there is a checkbox that in lion comes checked. This check boxes called live regions. In a nutshell what it does is it updates parts of the website that are continually updated for example ad banners and things like that. I uncheck the checkbox and now everything seems to be working fine. So unless you really know what that checkbox does on CheckIt and life will be made much easier at least it was for me. I didn't mean to be so critical of apple in my last post. As a matter of fact being a recent Windows convert I have found that Apple accessibility is amazing. And yes I do agree that we do need to show some patients on our part. Everyone makes mistakes it's just hard to deal with those mistakes when voice over and the other Mac accessibility features are the only way in which you have access to all your information. I don't mean this to directly criticize anyone on this blog. I have found the Mac blog very helpful in solving and answering questions. The criticism is more geared toward myself as self-criticism. On Jul 22, 9:50 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
No, that really didn't seem to fix anything with the item chooser issues. You know, that issue is baffling me more and more by the second! Does anyone even remotely? know what maybe causing certain things to not show up there that you darn well know are? there? I mean, this is crazyness! It would be one thing if it were just one site, but I'm seeing this on that site suggested the other day, tazachocolate.com, as well as in gmail, and, on the hj.com site. I hate to keep mentioning the hj site, but the point is like it or not it's an example where the issue exists. I'm not too fond of FS either as a company, but, that's no excuse to deny me finding a bug on their web site. It's just a web site for crying out loud! So don't smash me into the wall. K? Chris. - Original Message - From: Quinn Haberl quinnhaber...@gmail.com To: MacVisionaries macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues Thought I would updatethis quickly. I figured out why safari was being Soleil D and why I was having so many problems with voice over in Safari. Why was sitting on my computer I was thinking maybe I should check the voice over Control Panel thing. I did so and is the web category in the voice over control panel at the very bottom of the settings page there is a checkbox that in lion comes checked. This check boxes called live regions. In a nutshell what it does is it updates parts of the website that are continually updated for example ad banners and things like that. I uncheck the checkbox and now everything seems to be working fine. So unless you really know what that checkbox does on CheckIt and life will be made much easier at least it was for me. I didn't mean to be so critical of apple in my last post. As a matter of fact being a recent Windows convert I have found that Apple accessibility is amazing. And yes I do agree that we do need to show some patients on our part. Everyone makes mistakes it's just hard to deal with those mistakes when voice over and the other Mac accessibility features are the only way in which you have access to all your information. I don't mean this to directly criticize anyone on this blog. I have found the Mac blog very helpful in solving and answering questions. The criticism is more geared toward myself as self-criticism. On Jul 22, 9:50 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
No need to apologize, bro, It's perfectly OK. I think my point was made. LOL! Smile. Thanks for the kind words. Talk atcha later. Chris. - Original Message - From: mário gabriel mario@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 11:21 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues hi cristopher. thanks for yourcorage. suner or later, day will understand. apple are very irresponsability. sorry for not tiping well. bod bless you brother. -Mensagem Original- From: Christopher-Mark Gilland Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:50 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow exist? Yes! It's just an observation/opinion people? It's not your spouce who won't... umm... I'm not finishing that... LOL! ROFL! You get the point. So in my defense, I ask jpeole, please be more gentle with me. I'm only trying to help you all, and make suggestions. I may come on harsh at times, I know I do, but for god sake, cut me some slack! I'm frustrated! Can you blame me? Are we not all at one point or another in life? Bluntly? Deal with it, or don't read my mail! It's not rocket science! OK, I'm not gonna keep ranting and raving about htis. I've said my peace and hopefully've been heard. Enough is enough, in all respect fiarness to all of you all. I rest my case. Chris. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
How much of the problems that people are having is caused because the OS is new, and things are done a bit different and it is too soon to have learned the new ways of doing things in the new OS. There a large majority of those who are complaining of problems who are new or relatively new to Apple in the first place, and now they are trying to deal with a new operating system which was announced to have way over 200 changes and new features. People need to realize that it is going to take more than 24 hours to learn a new operating system that has over 250 changes and new features. And, how many of these folks have sat down with the list of new features and even read through them to learn how to use those new features? Let's see where things are a month from now. I bet by then there are going to be a lot of changed attitudes about the whole Lion experience. - Original Message - From: Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow exist? Yes! It's just an observation/opinion people? It's not your spouce who won't... umm... I'm not finishing that... LOL! ROFL! You get the point. So in my defense, I ask jpeole, please be more gentle with me. I'm only trying to help you all, and make suggestions. I may come on harsh at times, I know I do, but for god sake, cut me some slack! I'm frustrated! Can you blame me? Are we
Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
Hi David: Very well said. It's so easy to gripe and start blaming someone when what we did before doesn't work the same anymore. I like the way you've pointed this out. It sounds much better than I could have done. Take care Oh, and BTW: found that iPad setting. Thanks again. Carolyn On Jul 22, 2011, at 10:13 PM, David Tanner wrote: How much of the problems that people are having is caused because the OS is new, and things are done a bit different and it is too soon to have learned the new ways of doing things in the new OS. There a large majority of those who are complaining of problems who are new or relatively new to Apple in the first place, and now they are trying to deal with a new operating system which was announced to have way over 200 changes and new features. People need to realize that it is going to take more than 24 hours to learn a new operating system that has over 250 changes and new features. And, how many of these folks have sat down with the list of new features and even read through them to learn how to use those new features? Let's see where things are a month from now. I bet by then there are going to be a lot of changed attitudes about the whole Lion experience. - Original Message - From: Christopher-Mark Gilland clgillan...@gmail.com To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say, they seem to be getting very sloppy. I mean, ok, here's my thing. I totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill. the only reason I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this. I mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs. come on, lookit! We have some beta testers on here, do we not? Admit it, did you all see any of these bugs? If not, then wow. I apologize. Really I do. I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself, but, really, think about this for justa minute. OK, you all can shoot me, I know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention, but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear me out for a second. If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up. Just let me have this for a sec. Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's opinion standpoint, ok? this way it's more fair. 1. We all agree this is a new O S, right? 2. We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right? Uh dab dab dap? Holdit! I'm not done, listen to me! I'm still talking. You'll get your chance. I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in a software update. I'll address that in a second. right now, we're just looking at the facts. OK? So I repeat: 2. Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy? Yes, or no. 3. Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official release? Yes or no? 4. Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated to some degree? OK then. I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and everyone else on list by some members. Look, I feel you all's frustration, we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many. But, there is a delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more progressed. Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state right now. do we need to chill? OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think that an O S should be this buggy before official release? I know you all don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it, but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth. The blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty. Now, does this mean I'm saying that they are purposefully? doing this? No! Mark it in red what I say here: Ab, suh, lootly? not! I think they're just becoming more and more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved. Maybe they're trying to take on too much at once. I, don't, know! I don't know what goes on behind the scenes there? I probably don't, wanna? know! The point is, we really can't make accusations, can we! We don't know if they're really working behind the scene or not. So, on the one hand, should we probably just chill? Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to constructively complain about observations I've found? Yes. Is it justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find
