subject:"\[Mailman\-Users\] Re\: mailman v2.x"

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:56 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 9/17/20 2:27 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> > Absolutely not.  I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3)
> > with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it.  But, to date, that
> > doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM,
> > but I do see value in those things.
> 
> No just a need for a 15 year out-dated user interface and a MLM that 
> requires an EOL version of Python. Otherwise Mailman 3 can behave in the 
> same manner as Mailman 2. The installation of Mailman 3 takes an hour. 
> That includes OS, web server, database, MTA and python 3. All of the 
> complexity you continue to gripe about is, to use your word, fud.

The age of a product shouldn't determine it's usefulness.  Is Mark less
useful because of his age?  WTF dude?  

I don't get how you are a champion of mm3 being a simple install. You do
realize this list's archive is full of your problems with mm3, right? 
That, and you had to replace 2/3 of mm3 to get what you wanted?  How is
that easy, and how is that done in 1 hour?

> 
> > That's just FUD.  Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on
> > your mm3 work around(s).  I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my
> > users want.
> 
> There it is again. A use of a word meant to imply something negative. 
> Affinity and Empathy are not "workarounds". They are modern interfaces 
> that I developed because I host MANY list owners with all kinds of 
> requirements. I also wanted something to set apart myself from other 
> potential competitors. I am still using Postorius and Hyperkitty to for 
> Mailman 3 hosting clients. They are still fine to work with.
> 
> So your users don't want to use a MLM that works just like Mailman 2? 
> Mailman 3 can just be that but the potential to be more is there, a 
> potential that Mailman 2 does not have.
> 
> 
> > Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of
> > Mailman 3 work for you.
> 
> Again a disingenuous remark. You pull the same bs with Stephen all the 
> time. Mailman 3 works fine apart from Affinity/Empathy. I accomplished a 
> bold marketing and brand move with those two applications. You wouldn't 
> understand that. 

I do understand it, it's just that your business doesn't matter one way
or the other to me.  I get the sense that you might think we are MLM
competitors, we're not.  You have a MLM business, I just host a few
lists for others at my expense.

> I am no longer on the same playing field with budget 
> hosts. I have set my company apart from them. Why because Mailman 3 gave 
> me the ability to do that. Mailman 2 did not.
> 
> > My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman
> > reports out to admins.  Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere
> > else, but why?
> 
> Then why bring them up as a reason to not use MM3?

They were a bullet point in a list of bullet points, nothing more.

> 
> > > Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to
> > > Mailman 3 within a day.
> > I won't be your salesman.
> 
> Yet you have been in the past. Jimmy, did I offend you???

In the past I simply sent someone to you because they came to me asking
to pay me to do a mm3 migration. I told them I was no fan, but that you
were.  I don't get your "Jimmy" comment, but whatever dude.

> > I hope you one day see how ridiculous that sounds as an elevator pitch.
> 
> Not anymore ridiculous as your proposals to work harder to keep an EOL 
> MLM application alive when its replacement is alive and well.

I'm curious, do you get a new car every year when the dealership
replaces last year's model?

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/20 2:27 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
Absolutely not.  I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3)
with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it.  But, to date, that
doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM,
but I do see value in those things.


No just a need for a 15 year out-dated user interface and a MLM that 
requires an EOL version of Python. Otherwise Mailman 3 can behave in the 
same manner as Mailman 2. The installation of Mailman 3 takes an hour. 
That includes OS, web server, database, MTA and python 3. All of the 
complexity you continue to gripe about is, to use your word, fud.




That's just FUD.  Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on
your mm3 work around(s).  I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my
users want.


There it is again. A use of a word meant to imply something negative. 
Affinity and Empathy are not "workarounds". They are modern interfaces 
that I developed because I host MANY list owners with all kinds of 
requirements. I also wanted something to set apart myself from other 
potential competitors. I am still using Postorius and Hyperkitty to for 
Mailman 3 hosting clients. They are still fine to work with.


So your users don't want to use a MLM that works just like Mailman 2? 
Mailman 3 can just be that but the potential to be more is there, a 
potential that Mailman 2 does not have.




Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of
Mailman 3 work for you.


Again a disingenuous remark. You pull the same bs with Stephen all the 
time. Mailman 3 works fine apart from Affinity/Empathy. I accomplished a 
bold marketing and brand move with those two applications. You wouldn't 
understand that. I am no longer on the same playing field with budget 
hosts. I have set my company apart from them. Why because Mailman 3 gave 
me the ability to do that. Mailman 2 did not.



My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman
reports out to admins.  Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere
else, but why?


Then why bring them up as a reason to not use MM3?



Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to
Mailman 3 within a day.

I won't be your salesman.


Yet you have been in the past. Jimmy, did I offend you???



I hope you one day see how ridiculous that sounds as an elevator pitch.


Not anymore ridiculous as your proposals to work harder to keep an EOL 
MLM application alive when its replacement is alive and well.




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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users

Hello Brian Carpenter. On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 14:20:06 -0400, you wrote:

> I am sure Christian also meant to include me in their list of other 
> choices: https://harmonylists.com. At least I still offer Mailman 3 
> howbeit as a SaaS provider and not encourage a fellow mailman user on 
> a mailman user list to move away from using mailman.

Of course I do not want do move anyone away from Mailman. If Phil absolutely 
wants to retire Python 2 on his machine(s), he should either use MM3 or any 
other products. And I just did not think of your services when I wrote my reply 
to him. Good that you mentioned them. 

Christian 

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 9/17/20 1:45 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather
> > prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including
> > installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom
> > admin scripts unique to my setup, etc.  No one has sold me on mm3 yet.
> 
> It's because you don't want to be sold. 

Absolutely not.  I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3)
with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it.  But, to date, that
doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM,
but I do see value in those things.

> But I will say this, what you 
> want as a list owner, and what your list members want are two different 
> things. They may line up and they may not. But I suspect many list 
> owners are watching their mm2 lists shrink either in membership size or 
> posting activity. Communication behavior changes. Social media has had a 
> tremendous impact on how communications work on the web. Integrations 
> are very important to a lot of groups. None of these things are possible 
> with Mailman 2. Mailman 2 is inflexible as your position to not be 
> swayed to use Mailman 3.

That's just FUD.  Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on
your mm3 work around(s).  I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my
users want.

> Also your above comments show your unjustified bias against Mailman 3: 
> "you have to do so many things to use Mailman 3". No you don't. 

Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of
Mailman 3 work for you.

> I think 
> the real culprit is your custom admin scripts that you are using to make 
> up for whatever shortcomings you found with MM2.  You don't want to go 
> through the task of getting them to work with Mailman 3. Perhaps you 
> can't. So at least that is a valid point for wanting to stick with MM2. 
> However that is not the fault of Mailman 3.

My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman
reports out to admins.  Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere
else, but why?

> > > I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
> > > ;;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.
> > They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on
> > how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger
> > server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows).  What i do know
> > is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman
> > version:
> > 
> > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners,
> >  this time via Outlook
> > X-BeenThere:mai...@mailop.org
> > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
> > Precedence: list
> > List-Id: For mail operators 
> > 
> > 
> > I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to
> > it a few times on their list.  Note: he originally planned to started
> > moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.
> 
> Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to 
> Mailman 3 within a day.

I won't be your salesman. 

> > > It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
> > > archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
> > > importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
> > > `django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.
> > > 
> > > I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
> > > the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
> > > mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
> > > multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
> > > ;;. Brian's take is at
> > > ;;.
> > > 
> > I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good
> > detail to have.  What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30
> > second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3.
> > Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3
> > if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine?  There are
> > people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling
> > point?
> > 
> > -Jim P.
> 
> I have been posting those selling points frequently. But you are 
> *inflexible* in your insistence in using MM2.

So re-capping them should be easy and do'able, right?

> I will give you a 3 second selling point: *flexibility*, choices, future 
> new features, searchable archives, a growing community of users, etc.

I hope you one day see how ridiculous that sounds as an elevator pitch.
;-)

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 1:59 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

I am in no way a programmer - but as I understand it, Python 2 can live
alongside Python 3 without any problems.

The EOL declaration for Python 2 does NOT mean that Python 2 will stop working
on the date the publishers announced. There will just be no improvements. And
as long as there are no obvious security holes in Python 2, it is absolutely
not necessary to retire it on any machine.

I am administering some mailing lists which run on MM2 / cPanel, and they work.
I have no access to that machine other than via cPanel, and it is in most cases
sufficient. The question of Python 2 yes or no is up to the provider.

If you absolutely want to get rid of Python 2, either use Mailman 3, or another
mailing list manager.

There are some other mailing list managers available - some for free, some for money. I can
propose 2 of them here, you mey find others which may work for you. I am also operating some
mailing lists privately, they don’t use Mailman. They use CommuniGate Pro in the
"community edition" (free version with limited number of mail and other users, but
unlimited number of mailing lists and mailing list subscribers). This runs on an older Mac mini
in my basement - CGPro is also available for Windows, Linux, etc.
-

And there is Sympa, a mailing list manager created by people from French universities,
see and

Christian

I am sure Christian also meant to include me in their list of other
choices: https://harmonylists.com. At least I still offer Mailman 3
howbeit as a SaaS provider and not encourage a fellow mailman user on a
mailman user list to move away from using mailman.

--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/20 1:45 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather
prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including
installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom
admin scripts unique to my setup, etc.  No one has sold me on mm3 yet.


It's because you don't want to be sold. But I will say this, what you 
want as a list owner, and what your list members want are two different 
things. They may line up and they may not. But I suspect many list 
owners are watching their mm2 lists shrink either in membership size or 
posting activity. Communication behavior changes. Social media has had a 
tremendous impact on how communications work on the web. Integrations 
are very important to a lot of groups. None of these things are possible 
with Mailman 2. Mailman 2 is inflexible as your position to not be 
swayed to use Mailman 3.


Also your above comments show your unjustified bias against Mailman 3: 
"you have to do so many things to use Mailman 3". No you don't. I think 
the real culprit is your custom admin scripts that you are using to make 
up for whatever shortcomings you found with MM2.  You don't want to go 
through the task of getting them to work with Mailman 3. Perhaps you 
can't. So at least that is a valid point for wanting to stick with MM2. 
However that is not the fault of Mailman 3.



I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.

They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on
how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger
server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows).  What i do know
is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman
version:

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners,
 this time via Outlook
X-BeenThere:mai...@mailop.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: For mail operators 


I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to
it a few times on their list.  Note: he originally planned to started
moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.


Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to 
Mailman 3 within a day.





It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
`django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.

I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
;. Brian's take is at
;.


I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good
detail to have.  What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30
second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3.
Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3
if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine?  There are
people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling
point?

-Jim P.


I have been posting those selling points frequently. But you are 
*inflexible* in your insistence in using MM2.


I will give you a 3 second selling point: *flexibility*, choices, future 
new features, searchable archives, a growing community of users, etc.


--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users

Hello Phil Stracchino. On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 12:37:08 -0400, you wrote:

> .. Except for the part where it requires me to keep Python 2 installed
> beyond its second, extended, we absolutely mean it this time, no more
> extensions, declared EOL.
> 
> It's not that I need anything Mailman 2 doesn't do.  (Except run on
> Python 3.)  It's that I need Python 2 to be gone, dead and buried with a
> fork stuck in it.  I'm just waiting for Gentoo's Mailman 3 ebuild to be
> flagged stable.

I am in no way a programmer - but as I understand it, Python 2 can live 
alongside Python 3 without any problems. 

The EOL declaration for Python 2 does NOT mean that Python 2 will stop working 
on the date the publishers announced. There will just be no improvements. And 
as long as there are no obvious security holes in Python 2, it is absolutely 
not necessary to retire it on any machine. 

I am administering some mailing lists which run on MM2 / cPanel, and they work. 
I have no access to that machine other than via cPanel, and it is in most cases 
sufficient. The question of Python 2 yes or no is up to the provider. 

If you absolutely want to get rid of Python 2, either use Mailman 3, or another 
mailing list manager. 

There are some other mailing list managers available - some for free, some for 
money. I can propose 2 of them here, you mey find others which may work for 
you. I am also operating some mailing lists privately, they don’t use Mailman. 
They use CommuniGate Pro in the "community edition" (free version with limited 
number of mail and other users, but unlimited number of mailing lists and 
mailing list subscribers). This runs on an older Mac mini in my basement - 
CGPro is also available for Windows, Linux, etc. - 

And there is Sympa, a mailing list manager created by people from French 
universities, see  and 

Christian 

-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)  
Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 09:07 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 8:04 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:54 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > > Forward to where?
> > 
> > Oh the irony of you asking that question. :)  If we go back a year,
> > there were STARK warnings about the EOL of mm2.  Blatant EOL warnings. 
> > To me, a "path forward" is a way past that, a continued L(ife) with
> > something that people know, and something that meets their needs.
> 
> The EOL notices were clarified to mean "no new features" I committed to
> continue to fix critical bugs and security issues going forward.

I can't say this enough, Thank you for clarifying that issue because it
does mean a lot to a lot of people when it comes from you.

> If Mailman 2.1 meets their needs now, why won't it continue to do so as
> it is? (Aside: I still sometimes use Adobe Reader 9 for Linux on my
> desktop even though it has been unsupported and unavailable from Adobe
> for years.)

That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather
prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including
installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom
admin scripts unique to my setup, etc.  No one has sold me on mm3 yet.

> 
> > Flipping the coin around, make the actual written case, an "elevator
> > pitch" if you will, for some entity like NANOG or MAILOP to migrate to
> > mm3 this weekend.  Let's see what that looks like.
> 
> I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
> ;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.

They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on
how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger
server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows).  What i do know
is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman
version: 

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners,
this time via Outlook
X-BeenThere: mai...@mailop.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: For mail operators 

I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to
it a few times on their list.  Note: he originally planned to started
moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.

> It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
> archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
> importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
> `django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.
> 
> I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
> the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
> mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
> multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
> ;. Brian's take is at
> ;.
> 

I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good
detail to have.  What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30
second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3. 
Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3
if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine?  There are
people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling
point? 

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Phil Stracchino

On 2020-09-17 12:07, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> If Mailman 2.1 meets their needs now, why won't it continue to do so as
> it is? (Aside: I still sometimes use Adobe Reader 9 for Linux on my
> desktop even though it has been unsupported and unavailable from Adobe
> for years.)

Weighing in on this question alone, Mailman 2 does everything that I
actually need a mail list manager to do for me, and everything I
anticipate needing it to do in the future.

... Except for the part where it requires me to keep Python 2 installed
beyond its second, extended, we absolutely mean it this time, no more
extensions, declared EOL.

It's not that I need anything Mailman 2 doesn't do.  (Except run on
Python 3.)  It's that I need Python 2 to be gone, dead and buried with a
fork stuck in it.  I'm just waiting for Gentoo's Mailman 3 ebuild to be
flagged stable.

-- 
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  Babylon Communications
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  Mobile:   +1.603.998.6958
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Dmitri Maziuk


On 9/17/2020 9:24 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:


FYI, here is a decent comparison of Django vs Flask:

https://hackr.io/blog/flask-vs-django

In the article, this was said:

"Django is suited for bigger projects that need a lot of functionality. 
For simpler projects, the features might be an overdose"


Meh. The real deal is Django is the kind of framework that makes you 
program for the framework. Flask gives you everything you need and does 
not force you to touch anything you don't -- not that there is a lot of 
the latter in it.


Django is suited for the projects where the goal is write an application 
in django ecosystem. For everything else, it is not.


Dima
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 8:04 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:54 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> Forward to where?
> 
> Oh the irony of you asking that question. :)  If we go back a year,
> there were STARK warnings about the EOL of mm2.  Blatant EOL warnings. 
> To me, a "path forward" is a way past that, a continued L(ife) with
> something that people know, and something that meets their needs.

The EOL notices were clarified to mean "no new features" I committed to
continue to fix critical bugs and security issues going forward.

If Mailman 2.1 meets their needs now, why won't it continue to do so as
it is? (Aside: I still sometimes use Adobe Reader 9 for Linux on my
desktop even though it has been unsupported and unavailable from Adobe
for years.)

> Flipping the coin around, make the actual written case, an "elevator
> pitch" if you will, for some entity like NANOG or MAILOP to migrate to
> mm3 this weekend.  Let's see what that looks like.

I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.

It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
`django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.

I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
. Brian's take is at
.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:54 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 7:36 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
> > can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
> > mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
> > and/or Flask, etc.
> 
> Or they can just continue to use Mailman 2.1 with Python 2.7, and no one
> needs to do anything.
> 
> 
> > What I'm trying to do is
> > provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
> > those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
> > issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.
> 
> Forward to where?

Oh the irony of you asking that question. :)  If we go back a year,
there were STARK warnings about the EOL of mm2.  Blatant EOL warnings. 
To me, a "path forward" is a way past that, a continued L(ife) with
something that people know, and something that meets their needs.

Flipping the coin around, make the actual written case, an "elevator
pitch" if you will, for some entity like NANOG or MAILOP to migrate to
mm3 this weekend.  Let's see what that looks like.

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/20 10:36 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

Would it though?  Is that conjecture or based on available data that can
be analyzed?  Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
and/or Flask, etc.  All those current mm2 admins get to continue life as
they normally do.  They save a weekend (or a month in some cases) and
some even save some $$, by not having to significantly change their
Mailman installation or server size, etc.  What I'm trying to do is
provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.


I am seeing issues with MM2 on this list. Issues always exist with 
software applications so please stop using that as an argument against 
the adoption of Mailman 3. It's disingenuous.


Django is complex so moving away from it would reduce the complexity of 
a Mailman 3 installation procedure and maintenance. I manage dozens of 
mailman 2 and mailman 3 servers. When it comes to maintenance and 
support issues not much of a difference between the two. I will tell you 
this though, migrating a mm2 list to mm3 is easy and effective.


See, this discussion of changing interfaces for Mailman 3 itself 
demonstrates the flexibility of Mailman 3. A flexibility Mailman 2 will 
never see. The needs of list admins (and let's not forget list members) 
do change and they should as evolution of email discourse continues to 
change. Mailman 3 is in a better position to meet the needs of list 
admins (and let's not forget list members) far better than Mailman 2.


Personally having the ability to communicate with a list using email and 
a lightweight forum at the same time is a great thing. In fact, I think 
it is the future as list members will grow to like the flexibility. 
Let's not forget the way archives become instantly more useful with an 
include search feature in a Mailman 3 installation.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 7:36 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
> can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
> mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
> and/or Flask, etc.


Or they can just continue to use Mailman 2.1 with Python 2.7, and no one
needs to do anything.


> What I'm trying to do is
> provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
> those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
> issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.


Forward to where?

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 07:13 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> > If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
> > web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
> > Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
> > process.
> 
> I have said multiple times that Postorius and HyperKitty are just
> examples and are part of Mailman 3 because we need something and that's
> what we've got, and also that efforts to port Mailman 2.1 to Python 3 or
> add new features to Mailman 2.1 would be better spent building a
> lightweight (e.g. Flask based) web UI to manage Mailman 3 via its REST API.

Would it though?  Is that conjecture or based on available data that can
be analyzed?  Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
and/or Flask, etc.  All those current mm2 admins get to continue life as
they normally do.  They save a weekend (or a month in some cases) and
some even save some $$, by not having to significantly change their
Mailman installation or server size, etc.  What I'm trying to do is
provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x


On 9/17/20 9:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:

If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
process.


We went with Laravel (PHP) when we replaced Postorius with our Affinity. 
It's not python but we didn't want to use a python framework.


FYI, here is a decent comparison of Django vs Flask:

https://hackr.io/blog/flask-vs-django

In the article, this was said:

"Django is suited for bigger projects that need a lot of functionality. 
For simpler projects, the features might be an overdose"


Do you think Mailman 3 would be considered a "bigger project" that needs 
a lot of functionality?


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 7:20 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> 
> Yep.  Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound like criticism ...


And it wasn't taken as such. I'm only trying to reinforce the idea that
there are opportunities for making a different MM 3 web UI that would be
less complex to install, and working on that would be a valuable and
worthwhile effort.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Matthew Pounsett

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 at 10:14, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> >
> > If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a
> different
> > web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that
> isn't
> > Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
> > process.
>
> I have said multiple times that Postorius and HyperKitty are just
> examples and are part of Mailman 3 because we need something and that's
> what we've got, and also that efforts to port Mailman 2.1 to Python 3 or
> add new features to Mailman 2.1 would be better spent building a
> lightweight (e.g. Flask based) web UI to manage Mailman 3 via its REST API.
>

Yep.  Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound like criticism ... while it's never
appealed to me personally, obviously Django has its uses or people wouldn't
use it.   I was just responding to Stephen's comment about the
perceived complexity of setting up MM3.  Not having to install and
configure another application would be, objectively, simpler.

I already have too many full time jobs, so I'm not in a position to
volunteer to take on another. :)
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/17/20 6:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> 
> If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
> web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
> Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
> process.

I have said multiple times that Postorius and HyperKitty are just
examples and are part of Mailman 3 because we need something and that's
what we've got, and also that efforts to port Mailman 2.1 to Python 3 or
add new features to Mailman 2.1 would be better spent building a
lightweight (e.g. Flask based) web UI to manage Mailman 3 via its REST API.

This is exactly the motivation for the separation of the core engine
from the web UI in Mailman 3.

Brian has actually done this with Affinity and Empathy, but because of
his legitimate business interests, these are only available via his
hosting services.

I would welcome and support anyone who wants to develop a lightweight,
pythonic web UI for Mailman 3 list management and/or archiving and make
it available to the community.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Matthew Pounsett

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 at 07:22, Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

>
> Replacing Postorius with a Mailman 2 lookalike would probabaly be a
> nearly complete rewrite.  Of course you can reuse the HTML and perhaps
> the page-generating code, but all of the "business logic" needs to be
> rewritten pretty much from scratch, as Mailman 2 has direct access to
> list configurations, but in Mailman 3 you need to talk REST.
>
> I'm not sure this would be easier to install, although the typical
> installation / configuration problems might be more familiar to
> Mailman 2 users.
>

If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
process.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull

Cleaned up the @s.

Jonathan M writes:

 > What would be fun is a “Mailman 2 lookalike” Python 3 user
 > interface for Mailman 3, complete with Times New Roman and Courier.

The archiver part would be relatively easy to do; Pipermail is
probably fairly easy to disentangle from Mailman 2.  I can't speak to
how easy it would be to translate to Python 3.

Replacing Postorius with a Mailman 2 lookalike would probabaly be a
nearly complete rewrite.  Of course you can reuse the HTML and perhaps
the page-generating code, but all of the "business logic" needs to be
rewritten pretty much from scratch, as Mailman 2 has direct access to
list configurations, but in Mailman 3 you need to talk REST.

I'm not sure this would be easier to install, although the typical
installation / configuration problems might be more familiar to
Mailman 2 users.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 18:47 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
>  > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 02:34 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
>  > > You don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit 
> bit
>  > > to do any of that.
>  > > 
>  > > You just do it.
>  > 
>  > Exactly!  But that is not really what this convo is all about.
> 
> No, that is *all* this conversation is about.  You need to persuade us
> to give you what you want.  If you don't speak to our interests, you
> won't get it.
> 
>  > You keep taking it into the "end user support" arena, I'm focused
>  > on product preservation.
> 
> I care very little about product preservation for Mailman 2 (it's
> complete subordinate to user service in the sense that it would be a
> nice to have if there's zero risk to user support), and you need
> *nothing* from us to do it, anyway.
> 
> Pragmatically, users are *all* I care about in the Mailman 2 world.
> And I'm quite sure that's what the rest of GNU Mailman (the software
> development project) thinks, too.  Note well: I am not their elected
> representative, but I believe my statements are generally
> representative of their beliefs about the user base and their values.
> If you think otherwise, get in touch with them off list, since they
> aren't posting that I'm full of nonsense on list (ie, maybe they're
> just not listening here).
> 
>  > There are multiple roles, as you well know, why do you feel I need
>  > to fit in the role you define for me?
> 
> You don't need to fit into any role in the Mailman project.  You have
> the code, you have access to Launchpad or Github or Gitlab or
> SourceForge, and you have and will have access to this mailing list.
> 
> But if you don't care about users, you're not part of the team.
> You're a lone ranger.
> 
>  > Who's users?  ;-)
> 
> The Mailman Project's users, and in particular subscribers and admins
> of Mailman 2 sites and lists.
> 
>  > I think, based on this thread, you are going to have a really tough
>  > time ever retiring from Mailman.
> 
> From "Mailman"?  Not even envisioned at present, except in the sense
> that I'm old enough to be aware of my own impending death being closer
> to me than my birth.
> 
> From *Mailman 2*?  No problem at all.  This is not my first rodeo, my
> friend.  You clearly do not understand what I've been saying about the
> costs and benefits of user support and why GNU Mailman has chosen the
> development and user support strategies we have.
> 
> I'm not saying you should agree.  Certainly not that you should
> abandon your own interests.  But you seem to have a completely
> unrealistic idea of how things work in open source and how you could
> get at least some of what you want in this particular case.
> 
>  > > "Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
>  > > vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
>  > > Mailman.
> 
>  > Let GNU Mailman, the FSF, and the Mailman community decide that and
>  > don't prevent them from deciding that.
> 
> Have a clue, Jim.  Really.  Abhilash, Mark, I, and several others
> *are* GNU Mailman -- there's nothing else it *could* be.  The FSF has
> nothing to do with decisions about what code we distribute, that's not
> what GNU is about.  The Mailman community is *not* going to be part of
> the decision-making process, except that a small, unrepresentative
> sample of individual community members post here, and GNU Mailman is
> listening to them.  And in fact, there will not even be a decision in
> some sense.  That is, we could lift the feature freeze at any future
> date, and then we could reverse that decision afterward.
> 
> As for me preventing anything, I can't prevent anything -- if it's at
> all a close call, Abhilash will decide -- and I am not trying to do
> so.  I am *advocating* that
> 
> 1. the current feature freeze is, on balance, *good* for the community
>as a whole even though there's a very vocal group (I take it on
>faith that you're not the only one ;-) that wants the freeze
>lifted, and
> 
> 2. that lifting the freeze *as proposed on this list* is *not* in the
>interest of GNU Mailman or the community
> 
> and I am stating that
> 
> 3. due to my own preferences and constraints, I will retire from
>Mailman 2 support if I don't get credible assurances that Mark and
>I will get substantial help with user support to offset the likely
>increase in needs, and to ensure that user support is maintained at
>high levels even as we reduce our commitments as currently planned.
> 

Stephen, I"m just going to say that your input is always appreciated and
welcome, whether you continue to support mm2 or not.  Best wishes buddy.

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-17 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
 > On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 02:34 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

 > > You don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit bit
 > > to do any of that.
 > > 
 > > You just do it.
 > 
 > Exactly!  But that is not really what this convo is all about.

No, that is *all* this conversation is about.  You need to persuade us
to give you what you want.  If you don't speak to our interests, you
won't get it.

 > You keep taking it into the "end user support" arena, I'm focused
 > on product preservation.

I care very little about product preservation for Mailman 2 (it's
complete subordinate to user service in the sense that it would be a
nice to have if there's zero risk to user support), and you need
*nothing* from us to do it, anyway.

Pragmatically, users are *all* I care about in the Mailman 2 world.
And I'm quite sure that's what the rest of GNU Mailman (the software
development project) thinks, too.  Note well: I am not their elected
representative, but I believe my statements are generally
representative of their beliefs about the user base and their values.
If you think otherwise, get in touch with them off list, since they
aren't posting that I'm full of nonsense on list (ie, maybe they're
just not listening here).

 > There are multiple roles, as you well know, why do you feel I need
 > to fit in the role you define for me?

You don't need to fit into any role in the Mailman project.  You have
the code, you have access to Launchpad or Github or Gitlab or
SourceForge, and you have and will have access to this mailing list.

But if you don't care about users, you're not part of the team.
You're a lone ranger.

 > Who's users?  ;-)

The Mailman Project's users, and in particular subscribers and admins
of Mailman 2 sites and lists.

 > I think, based on this thread, you are going to have a really tough
 > time ever retiring from Mailman.

>From "Mailman"?  Not even envisioned at present, except in the sense
that I'm old enough to be aware of my own impending death being closer
to me than my birth.

>From *Mailman 2*?  No problem at all.  This is not my first rodeo, my
friend.  You clearly do not understand what I've been saying about the
costs and benefits of user support and why GNU Mailman has chosen the
development and user support strategies we have.

I'm not saying you should agree.  Certainly not that you should
abandon your own interests.  But you seem to have a completely
unrealistic idea of how things work in open source and how you could
get at least some of what you want in this particular case.

 > > "Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
 > > vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
 > > Mailman.

 > Let GNU Mailman, the FSF, and the Mailman community decide that and
 > don't prevent them from deciding that.

Have a clue, Jim.  Really.  Abhilash, Mark, I, and several others
*are* GNU Mailman -- there's nothing else it *could* be.  The FSF has
nothing to do with decisions about what code we distribute, that's not
what GNU is about.  The Mailman community is *not* going to be part of
the decision-making process, except that a small, unrepresentative
sample of individual community members post here, and GNU Mailman is
listening to them.  And in fact, there will not even be a decision in
some sense.  That is, we could lift the feature freeze at any future
date, and then we could reverse that decision afterward.

As for me preventing anything, I can't prevent anything -- if it's at
all a close call, Abhilash will decide -- and I am not trying to do
so.  I am *advocating* that

1. the current feature freeze is, on balance, *good* for the community
   as a whole even though there's a very vocal group (I take it on
   faith that you're not the only one ;-) that wants the freeze
   lifted, and

2. that lifting the freeze *as proposed on this list* is *not* in the
   interest of GNU Mailman or the community

and I am stating that

3. due to my own preferences and constraints, I will retire from
   Mailman 2 support if I don't get credible assurances that Mark and
   I will get substantial help with user support to offset the likely
   increase in needs, and to ensure that user support is maintained at
   high levels even as we reduce our commitments as currently planned.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-16 Thread Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 02:34 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> You're right.  If we're going to reopen the Mailman 2 branch to new
> features, there should be a much larger body.  So where is it?  Mark
> and I are not special.  We're merely here every day, we have acquired
> a lot of knowledge about common issues, and we dig into the code or
> the user's configuration when that's needed to solve a problem.  

You're not alone in that, there are plenty of people who help out. Are
you one of the more prevalent this month? Sure!  Last month, not so much
(according to my email archive), etc.  People do what they can, when
they can.

> You don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit bit
> to do any of that.
> 
> You just do it.

Exactly!  But that is not really what this convo is all about.  You keep
taking it into the "end user support" arena, I'm focused on product
preservation.  There are multiple roles, as you well know, why do you
feel I need to fit in the role you define for me?

> It's *easy* to learn to support users, at least the relatively
> sophisticated, often service-oriented admins we see on most days.  So
> where are the folks who "just do it" and show day-to-day attachment to
> supporting other users?
>
> Bottom line: When do we get to retire?  What happens to our *users*
> when we do?  Eventually (ie, within 3 years or so) that *is* going to
> happen.  What are you going to do for our users?

Who's users?  ;-)  I think, based on this thread, you are going to have 
a really tough time ever retiring from Mailman.  I think, and I mean
this with love and appreciation, you are extremely protective of
something you've shepherded.  Like a parent who is offended by a teacher
or professor criticizing their child.

> "Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
> vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
> Mailman.

Let GNU Mailman, the FSF, and the Mailman community decide that and
don't prevent them from deciding that.

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-16 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:

 > Wait, so you do want to continue to support mm2 users, but you don't
 > want to support them in any fashion if someone else other than you and
 > Mark manages just the new features?

That's right.

Currently Mark and I have a tolerable balance between the burden of
work that is intrinsically not very rewarding, the value that we get
from serving our users, and the knowledge that the burden is steadily
decreasing.  That decrease depends on the feature freeze.

You propose to remove the freeze, and indeed suggest that Mailman 2
even has a long-term growth story via rewriting in Python 3.  I am not
signed up for a slower decline in the user base, let alone growth, and
I think it's safe to say neither is Mark.

Here's the problem.

 > I think the genuine problem here is that it's a 2 man show when it
 > should be a much larger body.

You're right.  If we're going to reopen the Mailman 2 branch to new
features, there should be a much larger body.  So where is it?  Mark
and I are not special.  We're merely here every day, we have acquired
a lot of knowledge about common issues, and we dig into the code or
the user's configuration when that's needed to solve a problem.  You
don't need to have a title, an @mailman email address, or a commit bit
to do any of that.

You just do it.

It's *easy* to learn to support users, at least the relatively
sophisticated, often service-oriented admins we see on most days.  So
where are the folks who "just do it" and show day-to-day attachment to
supporting other users?

Bottom line: When do we get to retire?  What happens to our *users*
when we do?  Eventually (ie, within 3 years or so) that *is* going to
happen.  What are you going to do for our users?

"Manage just the new features" sounds like a terrible deal for the
vast majority of admins and subscribers, and a very bad look for GNU
Mailman.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-16 Thread Jonathan M


> On 16 Sep 2020, at 07:07, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> 
> I think that will be pretty challenging actually.  At least, it was when I 
> did it years ago.  And unless you’re *really* careful to avoid the temptation 
> to “fix" things along the way, you’ll probably end up with something not too 
> far away from Mailman 3. ;)   But hey, it’ll definitely be fun.


What would be fun is a “Mailman 2 lookalike” Python 3 user interface for 
Mailman 3, complete with Times New Roman and Courier.

An easier-to-install interface could open up Mailman 3 to the old audience. 

Best wishes

Jonathan  

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-16 Thread Barry Warsaw

I admit I haven’t been following this thread very closely, and don’t intend to 
do so.  (There’s a reason I turned over project management a few years ago :).

Just a couple of points.

> On Sep 15, 2020, at 18:11, Brian Carpenter  wrote:
> 
> When you say py3, are you talking about python 3? Are you trying to make mm2 
> python 3 compatible?

I think that will be pretty challenging actually.  At least, it was when I did 
it years ago.  And unless you’re *really* careful to avoid the temptation to 
“fix" things along the way, you’ll probably end up with something not too far 
away from Mailman 3. ;)   But hey, it’ll definitely be fun.

The only other point to make is to remember that Mailman is “GNU Mailman”.  2 
or 3, it’s still a GNU project, which means more than just being covered under 
some flavor of the GPL.  Just saying that if responsibility for MM2 is 
transferred, you’ll need to coordinate with the GNU project.

Cheers, and good luck!
-Barry

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 21:11 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 9/15/20 8:18 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > A small group, including myself, are planning to present a proposal.  We
> > are in the early stage of defining what that will involve, but we are
> > all committed.  I've also, as you've probably seen on lp, been focused
> > on pushing my py3 changes for mm2 to get them to the point of usable
> > testing.  I'm not anti-mm3 but myself and some others certainly do see
> > the ongoing need for a MLM like mm2.
> 
> When you say py3, are you talking about python 3? Are you trying to make 
> mm2 python 3 compatible?

yes.

> 
> So this labor you and your group are looking to do for MM2, how is this 
> not going to take more time then just migrating to MM3? One of your 
> criticism is that MM3 is complex and it is difficult to install. How is 
> all of this effort you are making staying with a version of Mailman that 
> has been updated (MM2 to MM3), and uses an interface that is over 15 
> years old productive? 

How old is the technology and tools used to steer the vehicle you drive,
or the mechanics behind the blades that wipe the windshield?

> I don't see this path you are trying to take as 
> one that is less complex and difficult than just moving to a MM3 
> environment. 

Fair point.

> At this point, those who use MM2 via cPanel will most 
> likely not benefit from your efforts. Especially if you port MM2 to 
> python 3 (this is an assumption I am making). I don't think cPanel will 
> touch such a version at all.

I'm no fan of cpanel as I have stated many times before. This isn't for
them.

> By the way, with all the problems I have seen with some folks having a 
> difficult time with installing MM2 on this list, I think the arguments 
> that MM3 is too difficult to install (it's not) 

says the guy who paid someone to re-craft 2/3rds of it. O_o   :)


> weakens considerably. I 
> still think non-cPanel MM2 users' time is better spent learning to 
> install MM3 and using it. Or better yet use a Mailman 3 host provider 
> such as myself to make their lives considerably easier.
> 

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-15 Thread Brian Carpenter


On 9/15/20 8:18 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

A small group, including myself, are planning to present a proposal.  We
are in the early stage of defining what that will involve, but we are
all committed.  I've also, as you've probably seen on lp, been focused
on pushing my py3 changes for mm2 to get them to the point of usable
testing.  I'm not anti-mm3 but myself and some others certainly do see
the ongoing need for a MLM like mm2.


When you say py3, are you talking about python 3? Are you trying to make 
mm2 python 3 compatible?


So this labor you and your group are looking to do for MM2, how is this 
not going to take more time then just migrating to MM3? One of your 
criticism is that MM3 is complex and it is difficult to install. How is 
all of this effort you are making staying with a version of Mailman that 
has been updated (MM2 to MM3), and uses an interface that is over 15 
years old productive? I don't see this path you are trying to take as 
one that is less complex and difficult than just moving to a MM3 
environment. At this point, those who use MM2 via cPanel will most 
likely not benefit from your efforts. Especially if you port MM2 to 
python 3 (this is an assumption I am making). I don't think cPanel will 
touch such a version at all.


By the way, with all the problems I have seen with some folks having a 
difficult time with installing MM2 on this list, I think the arguments 
that MM3 is too difficult to install (it's not) weakens considerably. I 
still think non-cPanel MM2 users' time is better spent learning to 
install MM3 and using it. Or better yet use a Mailman 3 host provider 
such as myself to make their lives considerably easier.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 16:51 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/15/20 12:41 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
> > all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
> > support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad. 
> 
> I told you to make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org. I suggested
> what I thought it should include. I don't think I said it had to include
> all that. See my follow=up at
> ;.
> 

Thank you Mark.  I did read your followup when you posted a few days
back, I've read and followed every email in this thread.

A small group, including myself, are planning to present a proposal.  We
are in the early stage of defining what that will involve, but we are
all committed.  I've also, as you've probably seen on lp, been focused
on pushing my py3 changes for mm2 to get them to the point of usable
testing.  I'm not anti-mm3 but myself and some others certainly do see
the ongoing need for a MLM like mm2.

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-15 Thread Mark Sapiro

On 9/15/20 8:59 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I went to the last link at the bottom of this list's posts and clicked
> on the (first) item with the same Subject as this email.  I paged down
> into that long page to find the single post that I wanted to link to.
> After a while I gave up trying to find it because I was distracted by
> all the out-of-order posts that were displayed there.  Go try it
> yourself, look at how the past post of "I'm done Jim" is listed right
> after your most recent post today.  I get that HK is different than
> Pipermail, but there's something stylish and simplistic about Pipermail
> that make it easy to use.


I admit, it isn't easy to find a single post on a page containing over
80 posts, but you might find it easier to "Search this list" for
"mailman v2.x" and "sort by latest first, or use your browser's find in
page function.

It doesn't seem that difficult for me if I know what I'm looking for.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-15 Thread Mark Sapiro

On 9/15/20 12:41 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
> all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
> support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad. 


I told you to make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org. I suggested
what I thought it should include. I don't think I said it had to include
all that. See my follow=up at
.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-15 Thread Brian Carpenter


On 9/15/20 4:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
If only this were a meeting conducted under Robert's Rules, the Chair 
would have invoked cloture, or at least referred this issue back to 
committee.  All interested parties have made their arguments, 
positions have hardened, and debate has become unrevealing.


Insofar as anything ever dies on the Internet, this abused equine is 
pinin' for the grassy fjords.


Please, can we convert this into a three-way private conversation, and 
consign this nearly ninety-entry email thread to history?  My screen 
isn't wide enough to handle the indentation required. 


Please don't make this private. Chip doesn't have to read it. That is 
why email programs contain a delete button.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-15 Thread Chip Davis

If only this were a meeting conducted under Robert's Rules, the Chair 
would have invoked cloture, or at least referred this issue back to 
committee.  All interested parties have made their arguments, 
positions have hardened, and debate has become unrevealing.

Insofar as anything ever dies on the Internet, this abused equine is 
pinin' for the grassy fjords.

Please, can we convert this into a three-way private conversation, and 
consign this nearly ninety-entry email thread to history?  My screen 
isn't wide enough to handle the indentation required.

-Chip-

On 9/15/2020 3:41 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

On Wed, 2020-09-16 at 03:51 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:

  > I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
  > any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
  > umbrella.

Digging??  Wake up, Jim!  It's *official policy* that Mailman 2 will
not receive new features under the Mailman umbrella.  It has been so
for *years*.  And the reasons have been the same for just as long:
It's because we don't want to support them.  Mark and I have both been
quite clear about that.

If you will support Mailman 2 going forward as we (ie, mostly Mark)
have supported it to date, that would be fine.  But you've explicitly
denied that you want to do that work.  You don't think it's necessary.
We think it addresses the needs of the users who need us most, so
we'll keep doing it our way, ie, we will support no new features.

Wait, so you do want to continue to support mm2 users, but you don't
want to support them in any fashion if someone else other than you and
Mark manages just the new features? (BTW, NEWS lists New Features were
added as recently as 2020-April) Do you feel that you would be obligated
to support something that was added to mm2 that you didn't feel should
be added or that you couldn't provide support for?  Is that what this is
all about?

  > Obstruction much?

There you go with the abuse again.  But I'll answer you politely.

Mailman is free software.  There's no "obstruction" at all, it's
almost impossible to obstruct you -- you have the code, it's easy to
find well-known places to host your releases and issue tracker, and
we're not going to stop you from announcing them here or on the wiki.
You don't need anything else.

You demand a bunch of perks: use of the Mailman brand, commit rights
in the official Mailman 2 repository, manager access to the tracker (I
assume), a seat in the cabal, etc.

I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad.

You also apparently think you have
the right to tell Mark and me which releases we should support.

No I don't, and I don't know why you can't differentiate between Mailman
and yourself.  Mailman should, and can, support multiple versions.  You
and Mark should feel free to contribute wherever you feel comfortable;
but I draw the line at you saying mm2 should die because you don't want
to support it under the parameters and guidelines designed and
established by yourself (and Mark).  I think the genuine problem here is
that it's a 2 man show when it should be a much larger body.

Now, no one should be shielded from criticism when they attempt to
abandon an installed base of users.  Remember, we are at this juncture
today because several people spoke up, over the past year, about all the
repeated "Final Release" warnings. It took at least 2 days of back-n-
forth emails just to get someone to say publicly that mm2 security
issues would indeed still be addressed going forward (why was it so
difficult to come to that reasoning?).   Also, don't forget that this
time last Summer there were some discussions on this list about how mm2
would be eol on 1/1/2020 because that was the Python team's v2 eol.

My question is: what do our users get in return?  If they wanted "bright!
new! shiny!", they'd migrate to Mailman 3.  I don't see much in the
plus column.  On the minus side, Mark and I will spend time supporting
your new features, time we can't spend on "classic" Mailman 2 issues,
Python 2 EOL issues, or on Mailman 3 development, which is what the
project is committed to, as Mark and I are.

I don't see that as a good deal for Mark and me, or for the great
majority of Mailman 2 users.

Why just you and Mark?  What about any of the other many people who
contribute and help in various ways?

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Wed, 2020-09-16 at 03:51 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
>  > any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
>  > umbrella.
> 
> Digging??  Wake up, Jim!  It's *official policy* that Mailman 2 will
> not receive new features under the Mailman umbrella.  It has been so
> for *years*.  And the reasons have been the same for just as long:
> It's because we don't want to support them.  Mark and I have both been
> quite clear about that.
> 
> If you will support Mailman 2 going forward as we (ie, mostly Mark)
> have supported it to date, that would be fine.  But you've explicitly
> denied that you want to do that work.  You don't think it's necessary.
> We think it addresses the needs of the users who need us most, so
> we'll keep doing it our way, ie, we will support no new features.

Wait, so you do want to continue to support mm2 users, but you don't
want to support them in any fashion if someone else other than you and
Mark manages just the new features? (BTW, NEWS lists New Features were
added as recently as 2020-April) Do you feel that you would be obligated
to support something that was added to mm2 that you didn't feel should
be added or that you couldn't provide support for?  Is that what this is
all about?  

>  > Obstruction much?
> 
> There you go with the abuse again.  But I'll answer you politely.
> 
> Mailman is free software.  There's no "obstruction" at all, it's
> almost impossible to obstruct you -- you have the code, it's easy to
> find well-known places to host your releases and issue tracker, and
> we're not going to stop you from announcing them here or on the wiki.
> You don't need anything else.
> 
> You demand a bunch of perks: use of the Mailman brand, commit rights
> in the official Mailman 2 repository, manager access to the tracker (I
> assume), a seat in the cabal, etc.  

I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad. 

> You also apparently think you have
> the right to tell Mark and me which releases we should support.

No I don't, and I don't know why you can't differentiate between Mailman
and yourself.  Mailman should, and can, support multiple versions.  You
and Mark should feel free to contribute wherever you feel comfortable;
but I draw the line at you saying mm2 should die because you don't want
to support it under the parameters and guidelines designed and
established by yourself (and Mark).  I think the genuine problem here is
that it's a 2 man show when it should be a much larger body.

Now, no one should be shielded from criticism when they attempt to
abandon an installed base of users.  Remember, we are at this juncture
today because several people spoke up, over the past year, about all the
repeated "Final Release" warnings. It took at least 2 days of back-n-
forth emails just to get someone to say publicly that mm2 security
issues would indeed still be addressed going forward (why was it so
difficult to come to that reasoning?).   Also, don't forget that this
time last Summer there were some discussions on this list about how mm2
would be eol on 1/1/2020 because that was the Python team's v2 eol. 

> My question is: what do our users get in return?  If they wanted "bright! 
> new! shiny!", they'd migrate to Mailman 3.  I don't see much in the
> plus column.  On the minus side, Mark and I will spend time supporting
> your new features, time we can't spend on "classic" Mailman 2 issues,
> Python 2 EOL issues, or on Mailman 3 development, which is what the
> project is committed to, as Mark and I are.
> 
> I don't see that as a good deal for Mark and me, or for the great
> majority of Mailman 2 users.

Why just you and Mark?  What about any of the other many people who
contribute and help in various ways? 

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:

 > I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
 > any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
 > umbrella.

Digging??  Wake up, Jim!  It's *official policy* that Mailman 2 will
not receive new features under the Mailman umbrella.  It has been so
for *years*.  And the reasons have been the same for just as long:
It's because we don't want to support them.  Mark and I have both been
quite clear about that.

If you will support Mailman 2 going forward as we (ie, mostly Mark)
have supported it to date, that would be fine.  But you've explicitly
denied that you want to do that work.  You don't think it's necessary.
We think it addresses the needs of the users who need us most, so
we'll keep doing it our way, ie, we will support no new features.

 > Obstruction much?

There you go with the abuse again.  But I'll answer you politely.

Mailman is free software.  There's no "obstruction" at all, it's
almost impossible to obstruct you -- you have the code, it's easy to
find well-known places to host your releases and issue tracker, and
we're not going to stop you from announcing them here or on the wiki.
You don't need anything else.

You demand a bunch of perks: use of the Mailman brand, commit rights
in the official Mailman 2 repository, manager access to the tracker (I
assume), a seat in the cabal, etc.  You also apparently think you have
the right to tell Mark and me which releases we should support.  My
question is: what do our users get in return?  If they wanted "bright! 
new! shiny!", they'd migrate to Mailman 3.  I don't see much in the
plus column.  On the minus side, Mark and I will spend time supporting
your new features, time we can't spend on "classic" Mailman 2 issues,
Python 2 EOL issues, or on Mailman 3 development, which is what the
project is committed to, as Mark and I are.

I don't see that as a good deal for Mark and me, or for the great
majority of Mailman 2 users.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-15 Thread Brian Carpenter


On 9/15/20 11:59 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

Ok, that makes sense. I wonder if we can get him to license/allow a copy
for use by Python.org.


Only if they agree to use it on a server on my network with no root 
access allowed. Since Affinity and Empathy are not python apps, I doubt 
they would ever agree to that, especially since Postorius and HK are 
developed with python, howbeit Django projects.




I went to the last link at the bottom of this list's posts and clicked
on the (first) item with the same Subject as this email.  I paged down
into that long page to find the single post that I wanted to link to.
After a while I gave up trying to find it because I was distracted by
all the out-of-order posts that were displayed there.  Go try it
yourself, look at how the past post of "I'm done Jim" is listed right
after your most recent post today.  I get that HK is different than
Pipermail, but there's something stylish and simplistic about Pipermail
that make it easy to use.


I am not sure if Empathy would be any better but feel free to try:

https://harmonylists.io/empathy/list/affinity-beta.harmonylists.io

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 08:45 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/15/20 4:40 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > I'd use the new MM3 archive of this list to link to your posts, but
> > interacting with it is an abysmal time waste.  At a minimum someone
> > should put Brian's HK replacement on python.org?
> 
> Brian's Affinity and Empathy are his proprietary work and he has valid
> reasons for not licensing their use by others.

Ok, that makes sense. I wonder if we can get him to license/allow a copy
for use by Python.org.

> Would you care to elaborate on why you think interacting with HK is "an
> abysmal time waste"?

I went to the last link at the bottom of this list's posts and clicked
on the (first) item with the same Subject as this email.  I paged down
into that long page to find the single post that I wanted to link to.
After a while I gave up trying to find it because I was distracted by
all the out-of-order posts that were displayed there.  Go try it
yourself, look at how the past post of "I'm done Jim" is listed right
after your most recent post today.  I get that HK is different than
Pipermail, but there's something stylish and simplistic about Pipermail
that make it easy to use.

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-15 Thread Mark Sapiro

On 9/15/20 4:40 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I'd use the new MM3 archive of this list to link to your posts, but
> interacting with it is an abysmal time waste.  At a minimum someone
> should put Brian's HK replacement on python.org?


Brian's Affinity and Empathy are his proprietary work and he has valid
reasons for not licensing their use by others.

Would you care to elaborate on why you think interacting with HK is "an
abysmal time waste"?

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 16:10 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > See Stephens previous comments about how there was no way he could
>  > or would work with anyone working on mm2 because it was against his
>  > objectives,
> 
> Correction: I will not work with someone who repeatedly misrepresents my
> positions in the way that the quoted passage does.

Fine. I'll leave it up to the reader to bisect what you and I have both
said on the issue, including your other comments today about how you (a
member of the Mailman Cabal) will only support Mark's Mailman releases.

I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
umbrella.  Obstruction much?

I'd use the new MM3 archive of this list to link to your posts, but
interacting with it is an abysmal time waste.  At a minimum someone
should put Brian's HK replacement on python.org?

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:

 > See Stephens previous comments about how there was no way he could
 > or would work with anyone working on mm2 because it was against his
 > objectives,

Correction: I will not work with someone who repeatedly misrepresents my
positions in the way that the quoted passage does.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users writes:

 > As long as cPanel bundles MM2, I need from time to time some
 > support from the real experts. And even if MM2 would not be
 > improved at all in the future, I hope that this list will stay
 > alive.

The existence of this list, and of support for Mark's releases of
Mailman 2, is not in question (subject to health of experienced
developers and users).  As long as I'm alive and well and people are
posting to this list, I will be supporting Mark's releases (even if
they're a decade old).  To the extent that people aren't posting,
there's no burden, the list will remain.

As proof of credibility, I offer the fact that during Mark's recent
vacation, I requested, received, and used moderation privilege on this
list.  And of course you know Mark.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

Steven Jones writes:

 > I dont know what planet this user lives on,

Please, don't.  This conversation is painful enough on all sides.

 > > Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple:
 > >   1.  MM2 must continue to work,
 > >   2.  support must continue to be provided."

Read literally, he said "these are *my* requirements".  That's a
perfectly fair statement!  He didn't claim there was an obligation on
the Mailman developers, nor did he say what he would do if Mark and I
decided to completely abandon MM2 support -- but I doubt it involves
putting prices on our heads. :-)

Sure, you could take it as a statement of obligation, and indeed it
often is.  I prefer to hear it as a forecast of a cry of pain, and to
do what I can (within the effort that I have committed) to deal with
it in that spirit.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-14 Thread Steven Jones

HI,

I dont know what planet this user lives on,

"> Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple:
>   1.  MM2 must continue to work,
>   2.  support must continue to be provided."

but really?   try telling say Oracle that they MUST continue to support Oracle 
8.0, LOL.

This is open source there is no MUST in support.  If you think you are entitled 
to free support for ever you are using the wrong product(s).  Except as its 
open source unlike Oracle you can continue to look after it yourself.

Meanwhile thankyou Mailman team for the great product and support over 15+ 
years.


regards

Steven
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-14 Thread Dmitri Maziuk


On 9/13/2020 7:20 PM, dean.coll...@insightplanners.com wrote:

Yay! Most useless, uninformative post of the day!


Are you reading he same mailing list I do? And if yes, the follow-up 
question: did you notice the threads on getting MM2 to work on centos 7, 
RedHat 8, and did you ever stop to consider how they relate to


... the odds are I'll never 
need a "New! Improved!" MM2, or MM3.


*plonk*
Dima
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-13 Thread dean . collins


Yay! Most useless, uninformative post of the day!

Quoting Dmitri Maziuk :


On 9/13/2020 6:17 PM, Chip Davis wrote:

Ironically, I was writing in support of Mark's and Stephen's  
position on the matter.  As a member of Mark's cohort, the odds are  
I'll never need a "New! Improved!" MM2, or MM3.


You wish: at some point "they" will upgrade the hardware and/or the  
OS to fix whatever horrible security hole is ending the world as we  
know it this week, and the upgrade will kill python 2 compatibility.  
Or some obscure python 2 library nobody knew existed.


"Them" being cPanel of RedHat or Cluebuntu, or any number of other  
players who aren't Mark and Stephen.


Dima
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-13 Thread Dmitri Maziuk


On 9/13/2020 6:17 PM, Chip Davis wrote:

Ironically, I was writing in support of Mark's and Stephen's position on 
the matter.  As a member of Mark's cohort, the odds are I'll never need 
a "New! Improved!" MM2, or MM3.


You wish: at some point "they" will upgrade the hardware and/or the OS 
to fix whatever horrible security hole is ending the world as we know it 
this week, and the upgrade will kill python 2 compatibility. Or some 
obscure python 2 library nobody knew existed.


"Them" being cPanel of RedHat or Cluebuntu, or any number of other 
players who aren't Mark and Stephen.


Dima
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-13 Thread Chip Davis


As it turns out, as I was hitting 'Send', Christian F Buser posted:

I am just a user of a Mailman 2 installation on cPanel. And I am reading here 
because i get some answers to my questions and help if something goes wrong.

As long as cPanel bundles MM2, I need from time to time some support from the 
real experts. And even if MM2 would not be improved at all in the future, I 
hope that this list will stay alive.
... which is a much more succinct version of what I was trying to 
say.  And perhaps I should have substituted "needs" for 
"requirements", in order to avoid any intimation of a demand.  I am 
genuinely grateful for all the help I've received, primarily from 
following other admins' issues reported here.


Ironically, I was writing in support of Mark's and Stephen's position 
on the matter.  As a member of Mark's cohort, the odds are I'll never 
need a "New! Improved!" MM2, or MM3.


-Chip-

On 9/13/2020 6:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 9/13/20 12:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote:

Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple:
   1.  MM2 must continue to work,
   2.  support must continue to be provided.

Any proposal that jeopardizes those fundamentals must be rejected.

By "support", I mean everything except new functionality: bug fixes,
installation/administration hand-holding, dumb questions not properly
answered by the user community, the occasional "Why does Mailman do
this?" query, and any number of issues that depend on the encyclopedic
institutional knowledge residing in Mark's and Stephen's crania.

This includes structural changes to way email is handled (DMARC,
encryption, etc.).  This does not include additional language tables, or
any of the issues on my personal laundry list of "I sure wish Mailman
had a way to ...".


This thread started because I refused to accept a merge request to add a
new feature, hCAPTCHA, to the subscribe form. The reason I gave was "no
new features", although I have other reservations about CAPTCHAs in general.

I think I have made my position clear and I think it includes my doing
all the things Chip wants, although I'm 78 years old, and it's not
unlikely that I will die before Mailman 2.1 finally does.

What I am opposed to is third parties making changes to the code base
and expecting me to continue to make releases, so I ask that any
potential group of Mailman 2.1 developers either fork the project in
which case, they can do whatever they want with their fork, or if they
want to commit changes to the Mailman 2.1 branch on Launchpad that they
be willing to take over the entire job.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/13/20 12:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
> 
> Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple:
>   1.  MM2 must continue to work,
>   2.  support must continue to be provided.
> 
> Any proposal that jeopardizes those fundamentals must be rejected.
> 
> By "support", I mean everything except new functionality: bug fixes,
> installation/administration hand-holding, dumb questions not properly
> answered by the user community, the occasional "Why does Mailman do
> this?" query, and any number of issues that depend on the encyclopedic
> institutional knowledge residing in Mark's and Stephen's crania.
> 
> This includes structural changes to way email is handled (DMARC,
> encryption, etc.).  This does not include additional language tables, or
> any of the issues on my personal laundry list of "I sure wish Mailman
> had a way to ...".

This thread started because I refused to accept a merge request to add a
new feature, hCAPTCHA, to the subscribe form. The reason I gave was "no
new features", although I have other reservations about CAPTCHAs in general.

I think I have made my position clear and I think it includes my doing
all the things Chip wants, although I'm 78 years old, and it's not
unlikely that I will die before Mailman 2.1 finally does.

What I am opposed to is third parties making changes to the code base
and expecting me to continue to make releases, so I ask that any
potential group of Mailman 2.1 developers either fork the project in
which case, they can do whatever they want with their fork, or if they
want to commit changes to the Mailman 2.1 branch on Launchpad that they
be willing to take over the entire job.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-13 Thread Brian Carpenter


On 9/13/20 3:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
I am loathe, as a lowly list administrator (on cPanel hosts, at that) 
to participate in the clash of titans,  but this _is_ the 
"mailman-users" discussion list.  It is somewhat distressing to see so 
little participation by the Mailman2 users, who will be most affected 
by any changes in its support.


Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple:
  1.  MM2 must continue to work,
  2.  support must continue to be provided.

Any proposal that jeopardizes those fundamentals must be rejected.

By "support", I mean everything except new functionality: bug fixes, 
installation/administration hand-holding, dumb questions not properly 
answered by the user community, the occasional "Why does Mailman do 
this?" query, and any number of issues that depend on the encyclopedic 
institutional knowledge residing in Mark's and Stephen's crania. 


The first line of support should come from your cPanel host and perhaps 
cPanel themselves. They made their own modifications to Mailman and with 
Mark's correct thinking on support custom modifications, cPanel should 
be supporting their version of Mailman.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-13 Thread Chip Davis

I am loathe, as a lowly list administrator (on cPanel hosts, at that) 
to participate in the clash of titans,  but this _is_ the 
"mailman-users" discussion list.  It is somewhat distressing to see so 
little participation by the Mailman2 users, who will be most affected 
by any changes in its support.


Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple:
  1.  MM2 must continue to work,
  2.  support must continue to be provided.

Any proposal that jeopardizes those fundamentals must be rejected.

By "support", I mean everything except new functionality: bug fixes, 
installation/administration hand-holding, dumb questions not properly 
answered by the user community, the occasional "Why does Mailman do 
this?" query, and any number of issues that depend on the encyclopedic 
institutional knowledge residing in Mark's and Stephen's crania.


This includes structural changes to way email is handled (DMARC, 
encryption, etc.).  This does not include additional language tables, 
or any of the issues on my personal laundry list of "I sure wish 
Mailman had a way to ...".


-Chip-

On 9/13/2020 1:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 9/13/20 9:29 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

Just what is the Cabal willing to accept in a proposal?

Try us and see?

My own opinion is I would want a commitment to take over what I
currently do including making releases on Launchpad, distributing them
to sourceforge and gnu.org, updating version info on
https://www.list.org/ (and mirrors) and announcing them. I would be
willing to mentor someone through this process.

I would ask for all that because I am not willing to make releases of
code I haven't audited, and if I were willing to audit all the changes,
we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. And, I don't see what
use there is of just updating the branch on Launchpad without making
releases.

You may have ideas about how this can work without all that. That's why
I think we want to see and discuss your proposal.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-13 Thread Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users

Hi all 

I am just a user of a Mailman 2 installation on cPanel. And I am reading here 
because i get some answers to my questions and help if something goes wrong. 

As long as cPanel bundles MM2, I need from time to time some support from the 
real experts. And even if MM2 would not be improved at all in the future, I 
hope that this list will stay alive. 

Christian 


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Hilfe fuer Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/13/20 9:29 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Just what is the Cabal willing to accept in a proposal?

Try us and see?

My own opinion is I would want a commitment to take over what I
currently do including making releases on Launchpad, distributing them
to sourceforge and gnu.org, updating version info on
https://www.list.org/ (and mirrors) and announcing them. I would be
willing to mentor someone through this process.

I would ask for all that because I am not willing to make releases of
code I haven't audited, and if I were willing to audit all the changes,
we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. And, I don't see what
use there is of just updating the branch on Launchpad without making
releases.

You may have ideas about how this can work without all that. That's why
I think we want to see and discuss your proposal.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-13 Thread Dmitri Maziuk


On 9/13/2020 11:01 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:


(really just who is the Cabal these days?)


There Is No Lumber Cartel.

HTH, HAND
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-13 Thread Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users

On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 09:16 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/13/20 9:01 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > What I want to hear from the Cabal is that there is support and
> > appreciation for efforts by others to carry on with mm2 in any direction
> > it takes them and that their representation in the Cabal is assured.
> 
> So make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org

I think at this point the onus is on the Cabal to formally state their
position given that we seen waffling about mm2 finality and security
releases (yes, it did eventually turn out better than it looked), and
comments like this from a current Cabal member: 

  "...the GNU Mailman Project whose core members control access 
   to Mailman resources ranging from mailing list moderation to 
   GSoC slots, has the goal of developing, maintaining and 
   promoting Mailman 3, while winding down Mailman 2 gracefully."


Just what is the Cabal willing to accept in a proposal?

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

On 9/13/20 9:01 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> What I want to hear from the Cabal is that there is support and
> appreciation for efforts by others to carry on with mm2 in any direction
> it takes them and that their representation in the Cabal is assured.

So make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org

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Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

2020-09-13 Thread Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users

On Sun, 2020-09-13 at 15:36 +, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> OK, I'm back and more or less caught up so I'm ready to continue this 
> discussion. 
> 
> In his initial post in this thread, Jim suggests that he and others want to 
> join the Mailman Coders team on Launchpad in order to commit to the Mailman 
> 2.1 branch there. In a thread on the merge proposal that started this, Jim 
> quotes my conjecture that he wants not only commit permission, but also the 
> ability to make releases and distribute them to the appropriate download 
> locations, and says that's "overkill". He also notes my suggestion that he 
> make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org which he has not yet done. [1] I 
> mentioned that previously in this thread [2] and Jim replied that my 
> suggestions were "over the top" [3].
> 
> So much for background. Here's my current position. Steve has presented a 
> summary of issues [4] with which I agree. For my part, I have stated that I 
> am willing to continue in my role as Mailman 2.1 release manager and to fix 
> critical bugs and security issues and commit i18n updates, but not implement 
> new features. I am also happy to continue to support Mailman 2.1 users via 
> this list. In fact, I just reported and fixed a bug [5].
> 
> However, if third parties are making changes to the code base, I can no 
> longer make signed releases of code that I haven't audited, and this auditing 
> is what I don't want to do.
> 
> Jim seems to want to be able to make these changes, but seems unwilling to 
> take over as release manager. So, what is the value of these changes if there 
> is never another release?
> 
> I think that's probably enough for this post. I will try to answer any 
> follow-ups.
> 
> [1] 
> https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691/comments/1024990
> [2] 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/ADOK7LGWRKNM4EJIZKO6CSIJRWCYS74A/
> [3] 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/RUZCFKDQAS2AGTPD3GXMCN7B7YBQF245/
> [4] 
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/message/XCGIWMFWRY63DZOYHJPRCCUYUXBNDK67/
> [5] https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1895451

Since it's not clear enough, my "overkill" statement about specifically
about the laundry list of things that Mark said I would need commit and
update access to [1], which seemed above and beyond necessary to me. 
More specifically that list of access-to-everything seems to me like a
jellybean test. e.g. "Ask for all of this so that it is impossible for
you get get any of it".

1. 
https://code.launchpad.net/~jks/mailman/hcaptcha/+merge/389691/comments/1024988

I standby my feelings that some people want to quietly run away from
this established product and make it impossible for any others to take
over.  See Stephens previous comments about how there was no way he
could or would work with anyone working on mm2 because it was against
his objectives, yet he wanted to remain as one of the few in the Cabal
(really just who is the Cabal these days?), thereby preventing any mm2
people from being in the Cabal, the Cabal that Mark just said myself and
anyone else would need permission and access from.  It looks like a
rotten egg, it smells like a rotten egg,

What I want to hear from the Cabal is that there is support and
appreciation for efforts by others to carry on with mm2 in any direction
it takes them and that their representation in the Cabal is assured.

-Jim P.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x