Re: VIRGIL: bullet-proof fix
Since I didn't receive the original spam I'm not sure whether it merited more than instant deletion like the anatomical extension and pump-and-dump share offers one expects to get; but if it is really a problem, by all means let us go to Google Groups. Leofranc Holford-Strevens In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes The software that runs Mantovano is old and far from bullet-proof. A possible solution is to move the list to a free mailing list service such as Google Groups. This would simplify my job, certainly! The main disadvantage is that everyone who wants to continue receiving messages would need to register with Google Groups. It's easy (and free), but it is an additional step. Right now, it's extremely easy to join the discussion -- and also easy to send spam. I do what I can behind the scenes, but some kinds of spam I can't intercept. What are your thoughts? --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Garland and bough: PS
Further to my comments on the lines from Meleager cited by Martin: Gow and Page, in _Hellenistic Epigrams_ ii. 604 ad loc., do their best to botanize the golden bough: 'chrusánthemon is the name of more than one flower, and if one of these is meant there is no way of deciding which. Klw^na however suggests shrub or tree rather than flower and we should consider also chrusókarpos, _ivy_, and chrysóxulon, _fustic_, _Rhus continus_. Since _aei_ presumably qualifies chrúseion these seem more suitable than a flower.' Not a hint that the expression may be figurative, but also (which is more significant) not a hint that the phrase is paralleled elsewhere. Plato they refer to a note on the epigrams ascribed to him (and declaring 'Plato the Younger', AP 9. 13, 748, 751 to be too late for the Garland); but by saying of the participial clause 'perhaps bright with the author's excellence', but the phrase is flat' they eliminate any reference to Plato as a moral philosopher. A search on the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae produced only one other golden bough, in 'political verses' [i.e. accentual iambics of 15 syllables to the line] by Theodore Prodromos on the birth of Alexios, son of the Sebastokrator Anronikos, grandson of the Emperor John II (1118-43), great-grandson of the Emperor Alexios I (Alexius Comnenus, 1081-1118). John, called 'flourishing, very broad, and great tree' is informed that he has tw^n chruoklw'nwn aúxhsin ek tw^n paraphuádwn kaì tw^n blastw^n tw^n eugenw^n kaì tw^n apoblastídwn: (Carmina historica, 44: 39-40), which appears to mean 'increase of the golden boughs (the imperial house) from the offshoots (his brothers), the noble shoots (his sons), and the shoots of shoots (his grandsons)'; for the continuation runs 'Count with your children and your children's children this newborn Sebastokratorid too, the offspring of your sweetest child Andronikos. Add another new Komnenos to the Komnenoi, and attach another general to your generals.' It seems impossible to relate this to any image that might have been used by, or derived from, either Meleager or Vergil; but in so literary a culture as the Byzantine that suggests that Theodore knew no more of a golden-bough tradition than poor Cornutus, who alas did not know about the clipping of the deceased's hair either. Leofranc Holford-Strevens ' Meleager (whom Vergil can hardly not have known) is describing the poets whose works he has included in his collection as flowers or other delights for his garland. Some of the phrases seem more specific than others; they include 'Sappho's slight things, but roses' and 'the sweet myrtle of Callimachus, ever full of stinging honey'. The Plato intended is undoubtedly Plato the philosopher, but as the ascriptive author of epigrams whose authenticity we no longer believe in; there is no reason to read anything special into the phrase so far as Meleager is concerned, nor single out one couplet rather than set it against all the other impressionistic judgements in the poem. So far as Vergil is concerned, however, there is no reason why it should not have given him ideas; if he blended it with the Pythagorean Y and the Aureum Carmen, that would be entirely within his method, to draw on two or more sources and make something of his own. Leofranc Holford-Strevens In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rosemary Grayston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Finding a literary origin for the Golden Bough has been very difficult, as is generally acknowledged. Servius, as I remember, says that the image comes from Pythagoras' belief that the bough or Y-shape represents the sharp divergences of fate. This is interesting but fails to say anything about gold. The only clear verbal parallel comes as far as I know from Garland, a poem by Meleager of Gadara who died about when V was born and who was quite well known: the golden branch of the ever-divine Plato, shining all through with virtrue. Mackail, who worked on both Meleager and V, remarks that this is one of the best-ever few-word critical judgements, assuming that the great Plato not some lesser poet of the same name is meant, and that it might have contributed to V's conception of the Bough - David West makes this phrase the key to a Platonist interpretation of much of the Katabasis story. For my less qualified part I find it hard to think that V did not know of Meleager's phrase; moreover we are aware that V, from his treatment of Berenice's Lock of Hair, which left Berenice's head as unwillingly as Aeneas left Dido's realm, was well prepared to take Hellenistic phrases which had been merely charming and turn them into something much more stern and dramatic. Perhaps the word charming underestimates Meleager, but I would think in spite of Mackail's praise that M was not really trying to be profound. His theme is the association of a series of poets with a series of flowers and fruits making the Garland: quite common botanical things
Re: VIRGIL: Garland and bough
Meleager (whom Vergil can hardly not have known) is describing the poets whose works he has included in his collection as flowers or other delights for his garland. Some of the phrases seem more specific than others; they include 'Sappho's slight things, but roses' and 'the sweet myrtle of Callimachus, ever full of stinging honey'. The Plato intended is undoubtedly Plato the philosopher, but as the ascriptive author of epigrams whose authenticity we no longer believe in; there is no reason to read anything special into the phrase so far as Meleager is concerned, nor single out one couplet rather than set it against all the other impressionistic judgements in the poem. So far as Vergil is concerned, however, there is no reason why it should not have given him ideas; if he blended it with the Pythagorean Y and the Aureum Carmen, that would be entirely within his method, to draw on two or more sources and make something of his own. Leofranc Holford-Strevens In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rosemary Grayston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Finding a literary origin for the Golden Bough has been very difficult, as is generally acknowledged. Servius, as I remember, says that the image comes from Pythagoras' belief that the bough or Y-shape represents the sharp divergences of fate. This is interesting but fails to say anything about gold. The only clear verbal parallel comes as far as I know from Garland, a poem by Meleager of Gadara who died about when V was born and who was quite well known: the golden branch of the ever-divine Plato, shining all through with virtrue. Mackail, who worked on both Meleager and V, remarks that this is one of the best-ever few-word critical judgements, assuming that the great Plato not some lesser poet of the same name is meant, and that it might have contributed to V's conception of the Bough - David West makes this phrase the key to a Platonist interpretation of much of the Katabasis story. For my less qualified part I find it hard to think that V did not know of Meleager's phrase; moreover we are aware that V, from his treatment of Berenice's Lock of Hair, which left Berenice's head as unwillingly as Aeneas left Dido's realm, was well prepared to take Hellenistic phrases which had been merely charming and turn them into something much more stern and dramatic. Perhaps the word charming underestimates Meleager, but I would think in spite of Mackail's praise that M was not really trying to be profound. His theme is the association of a series of poets with a series of flowers and fruits making the Garland: quite common botanical things, like violets, spurge, cyclamen and pears. When he comes to Plato does his golden branch come from a mythical or supernatural context unlike all the other ones? Or is he again referring to something quite common? The obvious candidate seems to me to the plant we know as Golden Rod, solidago virgaurea, which does have a pleasantly bright appearance and also has inner goodness in form of medicinal properties (good for kidney stones, apparently). The point I was thinking of is that if V is exploiting an inherited, rather charming, comparison of Plato to a common garden flower he is also transforming the idea that he inherits, raising it to another plane, and one should not assume that he retains from the tone of his original an uncritically flattering view of political Platonism. How nice it would be to find another source that took us out of the garden and into a rather more sacred and mythological realm where V's Bough seems to belong. Unless Meleager is using his anthology to encode some deeper ideas. - Martin Hughes -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil passages for comparison
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Helen Conrad-O'Briain [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What passages are generally used as test passages for manuscript affiliation for Vergil? I have a list somewhere, but 1. I cannot find it, and 2. I suspect it might not have been a list that was necessarily generally accepted. At 08:40 PM 4/24/03 +0100, Helen COB wrote: What would the list suggest as passages to use for tests of text affiliations in manuscripts or early printed books ? To which David replied: Matteo Venier uses the following passages in Per una storia del testo di Virgilio nella prima età del libro a stampa (1469-1519): - E 1.6, 8; G 1.1-200; A 5.484-600 - incomplete verses: A 2.614, 640, 767; 3.340, 661; 8.41; 10.284, 728, 876) - interpolated verses: G 4.338; A 2.76, 567-88; 3.204abc; 4.273, 528; 6.242, 289abcd, 702; 8.46; 9.29, 121, 529; 10.278, 872 - interesting verses from the standpoint of early printed editions: G 1.321, 336, 2.126-30, 168, 449-51, 523, etc. Is that what you meant? Leofranc -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: boiling the must
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John O'Flynn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Greetings to the list. Why, in Georgics 1.295, is the peasant woman boiling the must? Thomas's note ad loc. leaves me entirely mystified: The boiling down of must was a means of bypassing fermentation. How on earth can you make wine without fermentation? If you boil down the must you'll simply end with concentrated grape juice. In reading the _Georgics_, the first resource, especially on these rural matters, should always be Mynors, who writes on p. 68 of his posthumous edition (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1990): 'we turn back from the long winter evenings to a busy spell in October, when selected must from the wine-press is boiled down into a sweet syrup of various strengths, to blend with natural wines in order to improve them and make them keep (Col[umella] 2.21.4 'uinum defrutare'), or for use in home medicine or in the kitchen, or for sale. Varro [De Vita Populi Romani lib. I, cited by Nonius p. 551M [= p. 885 Lindsay, s.v. sapa], says that reduction by one-half produced _sapa_ (which is a festive drink in Ovid _fasti_ 4.780), and by two-thirds the _defrutum_ of _G[eorgics] 4.269. Pallad[ius] 11.18 adds _caroenum_, from redction by one-third; but there is some variety in the names used. In the full description in Col. 12.19-21, the boiling liquor is skimmed with bunches of fennel tied on sticks (V's _follis_), or with strainers plaited from rushes or broom. _dulcis_ is noted by Quintilian 8.2.10 as an example of the well-chosen epithet.' Mynors goes on to discuss the use of _Volcano_ as metonym for fire and the hypermetric elision _umor(em)_. On the next line he notes at _aëni_: Col. 12.20.2 and Pliny 14.136 advise the use of lead for the vessel rather than bronze. and considers a possible echo from the _Erga_ of Menecrates of Ephesus. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: *** SPAM *** Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rosemary Grayston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes By 'racism' I mean 'irrational prejudice on grounds of race or nationality', As opposed to a rational one? But of course if one believed the scientific theories in fashion before the Second World War, rational is precisely what racial hostility was. I quite agree that the legal story, as far as the Young Caesar was concerned, of the Actium campaign was of a war of Rome against Egypt, where certain traitors appeared, most nefariously, on the Egyptian side. But this story is not quite what we get in V's account of the Shield, which I suppose puts a case to Republican sympathisers that they have a better deal from the Augustan than they could ever have obtained from the Antonian system. Which was indeed an Augustan line, at least in Latin literature, as Syme shows; true, a great temple of Mars Ultor celebrating Augustus' avenging of Caesar is not the stuff to give Republicans, but it was aimed at a wider public than the narrow readership of literature. Antony does not appear as a love-slave tied to Cleo's ample apron but as a vigorous and menacing leader, using his position as a Roman victor in the East to carry the Eastern peoples (some reluctantly, perhaps) in an attempt to secure domination for himself in Rome. She follows him, not he her. No one thinks it nefarious for a wife to follow her husband and within the scheme of the Aeneid it is not forbidden for women to appear on a battlefield for a cause she believes in: Cleo and Antony would seem to have a Camilla-Turnus, rather than a Dido-Aeneas, relationship. Certainly by then (even by Actium, if one took seriously the speech Dio puts in Imp. Caesar's mouth) there was no need to maintain the pretence that the enemy was Egypt; but Antony's relation with Cleopatra is symptom, or cause, of his treasonable alliance with the Orient--at best Greek-speaking, at worst barbarians--against Rome, all Italy, and all decent Latin-speakers everywhere. I would think that the nefarious act in this passage, for the sales pitch to the Republican diehards, seems to be the introduction not just of a form of monarchy but of a form that brings Eastern political and religious forces into the Roman political equation: a sudden and unmanageable transition. It is better for everyone, including the easterners, whose rivers will now run more gently under Augustan tutelage, to establish a regime that will from now on respect Western-style religious restraints. The unpleasantness of the Triumviral period is over, and was Antony's fault anyway. Certainly. Yet the reference to Egypt in the Georgics as the home a fortunate race that Eastern influences of all kinds on a united Empire would inevitably arrive and we should make the best of them. But is that meant to be present in the mind? If Theseus can have two different fates in one book (Aeneid VI), it seems a little much to worry about what might have been said in another work all those years ago. And moderns are quite capable of doublethink about foreign countries too. France, in early nineteenth-century Britain, was both the deadly enemy and the source of wine; Grandfather Buddenbrooks heartily damns the French, but quite unselfconsciously uses the French expressions of his eighteenth-century education that no subsequent generation would have dreamt of uttering. Come to that, in more recent times much American culture and ways of thought have been imported into other countries by left-wingers who denounce American policies at every turn. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: *** SPAM *** Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
As a matter of interest, how came *** SPAM *** into the header? Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rosemary Grayston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes . What was the sentiment to which V appeals in the Shield passage of A8 when he accompanies mention of 'the Egyptian wife' of Antony with an expostulation about the nefarious nature of the partnership? The racism and fear of Caesarian 'tota Italia' propaganda, as advertised by Syme? What is meant here by 'racism'? The scientific theories that were all the rage (not least amongst progressive eugenicists) until the Second World War and then dropped like a hot potato afterwards? Or simply the belief that certain other peoples, especially those against whom one is fighting, are inherently decadent or vicious, which is normal in all wars? (Think of the stuff the British told each other about the Germans in both World Wars; anyone who imagines the Second was fought only against the Nazis needs to grow up fast.) Retrospective moral judgements are for prigs, the kind of people who used to rebuke Martial for obscenity and then when the fashion changed for obsequiousness; or else for those who Compound for sins that they've a mind to By damning those they're not inclin'd to. Even if one happens to believe that some moral principle or other is timeless, one can no more blame those who lived before its revelation for not abiding by it than the most zealous Christian blames those who lived before the Incarnation for not being Christians. Augustus had declared war on Cleopatra, not on Antony, in order that the conflict should be with a foreign enemy with whom (as could be foreseen) Antony would treasonably ally himself, rather than a civil war against someone whose right to power was no worse than his own. Once the war was on, of course the enemy would be vilified: for the spirit in which Cleopatra could be viewed see (in a poet who had seen the dark side of Octavian at Perugia, and who sometimes plays at a dandyish sympathy for his opponent) Propertius 3. 11, especially v. 41 'ausa Ioui nostro latrantem opponere Anubim', even though in the previous verse he has acknowledged that Cleopatra was of Macedonian blood, and therefore not a native Egyptian (unlike Apion if you believe Josephus' defence of the Jews against his *racial* attack). But in Vergil the point of Aegyptia coniunx is surely less to tarnish her than to damn Antony, who (nefas!) had taken a foreign wife and thrown in his lot with her; had committed the crime, in fact, from which Aeneas had drawn back. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Ancient Geography
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Hippolyte Menshikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I have been trying to make some sense of the geographical place names listed by Meliboeus at Eclogue 1.64-66. In his commentary, Page suggests that they constitute the 4 points of the compass: North (Scythia), East (Oaxes), South (Africans) and West (Britons). This took me somewhat by surprise. According to modern cartography, Which has nothing to do with the case; not even ancient cartography. What we need is neither the Barrington Atlas nor Strabo, but a poetic map in which the barbarian peoples are located where they need to be, because it is barbarians amongst whom Meliboeus, in disgust or despair, must go. The Africans are obvious; Oaxes is a portmanteau of Oxus and Araxes (if Shakespeare can speak of 'Ariachne's woof', why can't Vergil blend names too), and therefore stands for the east; obviously not Crete, a Mediterranean island in the empire, which as Clausen puts it would not 'be compatible with the African desert, distant Britain, and the frozen North'. The West has to be the cut-off Britons because Spain, due west of Italy as it lies, and even Gaul are under Roman rule. Scythia did indeed stand for the frozen North in the classical imaginary (think of the Riphaean mountains) because it was cooler than Greece or Italy; after all, the Straits of Kerch had frozen over in the lifetime of Vergil's father. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Loeb for student text?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christine Perkell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes why not order two different paperbacks--one Aeneid, one Eclogues/ Georgics. I should think the Loeb would be deadly. I admit to knowing nothing about what students want, even in Britain let alone in America, nor have I ever looked at the Loeb in question beyond seeing what Goold had to say about some difficulty, but what is being sought in an English translation: something that gives a reasonable approximation to the surface sense, or something that has literary life? I can imagine that the former, if in workaday prose, would be deadly, and the latter convey too much of the wrong life; personally I find (for instance) Dryden a lot easier to take than Day Lewis, but that is because I appreciate seventeenth-century poets more than twentieth, not because in either case I feel I am reading Vergil. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: seduction by Aeneid
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes I'm sorry no one has picked up the Christianus Maro query. This is the exactly the right place for that kind of question. I did not reply because I supposed that someone else must have had more dealings with Mantuan than I had: I quote his counter to leap-year superstition in _The Oxford Companion to the Year_, p. 681 and note at p. 128 (on his day 20 March) that 'He is the good old Mantuan misquoted by Holofernes in _Love's Labour's Lost_, IV. ii' (though some editions clean up the quotation). But when no-one had written, David's kind words prompted me to contribute. I have just finished watching a Spanish film, Son de mar (1998), directed by Bigas Luna. The main character, Ulises, teaches literature at a high school by the sea and wins the love of his landlord's daughter by reciting lines (in Spanish, not Latin) from the Aeneid. There's the cave, of course, and a passage which never seemed sexy to me, the description of two snakes breasting the waves and squeezing Laocoon. This second passage is apparently the girl's favorite, and he recites it to her at key points in the story (either prior to or during sex). Well, (near)-strangling is attested as an erotic practice, not least for its effect on the male member... Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas' Character
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Melanie Austin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I suspect that Virgil intended Aeneas to be a hero Augustus would have viewed as ideal. The degree to which his epic is ironic has been the subject of much debate. I was taught (by a prof who ignored the irony) that Creusa dies so that Aeneas may found a new Troy via a new marriage. It was not wrong of Aeneas to tell Creusa to follow him; rather, it was an assertion of the patriarchal notion of male power, control, and continuity. One can always find another wife, after all. Creusa seems to cooperate with the patriarchal order when she appears to Aeneas after her death. Which Vergil after all was not challenging. Besides, for the purposes of the plot he needed Aeneas to be wifeless when he arrived in Carthage; he could have made him a widower before the fall, but the loss described is more pathetic. (And Creusa, like its masculine counterpart Creon, was the favoured name for a genealogical item invented at need.) She does not accuse him, as Dido will; she just points him in the direction he must take to fulfill his mission. And that is part at least of what she is there for. In both ancient and modern literature, it is the fault of 'Anglo-Saxons' to focus on characters as if they were real human beings to the exclusion of their function within the work of literature. It is easy enough to read Homer for real human beings; but was Vergil so concerned? Dido, who has negative features often overlooked, is 'real', or rounded, enough; but it is precisely when Aeneas steps out of the Idealized Roman to be an individual that he is, at least morally, most fallible: falling for Dido, killing Turnus. But there again, historical aetiology requires Dido to have ground for cursing him; and can anyone envisage Turnus settling down as either a private citizen or the First Minister of Aeneas' government without nurturing his resentment or being the focus for any malcontents? Neither poetically nor politically is the individual the be-all and end-all that English-speakers seem to wish. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Dis = dis 'wealthy'?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes Commentators in the Renaissance routinely explain the proper name Dis as dis 'wealthy'. Cf. Plouton from Ploutos in Plato, Crat. 403a. I have two questions about this. 1. Is the Dis etymology valid? Ernout-Meillet accept it; and I don't know of an alternative. 2. How old is it? At least as old as Cicero (De natura deorum 2. 66), though Quintilian (1. 6. 34) took it to operate by contraries (quia minime dives). Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Comparetti's Virgilio nel Medioevo available online
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Emma T.K. Guest-Consales [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Thanks for posting the Comparetti link, David. Also, I would like to inform the list that I recently completed my dissertation in art history at Rutgers University: The Illustration of Virgil's Bucolics and its influence in Italian Renaissance Art. I would be happy to post the abstract to the list, if that would be appropriate. Excellent topic. Please do. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's knowledge of the underworld (Dante)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes I've been writing this month about the underworld. Here's something I'm curious about: when Dante and Virgil are going through hell, Dante asks his guide whether anyone from limbo ever visits the lower circles. That was 35 years ago. To my knowledge, no one has discovered a source for the episode, and I think B. d. I. was probably right: this was Dante's invention. But why does he drag Erichtho into it? The connection between Aen. 6 and Phars. 6 is obvious, interesting, and one that commentators in the Middle Ages had a lot to say about. But whom did Virgil draw forth from the circle of Judas, and did Erichtho animate Virgil's corpse to do it? The commentaries I own do not answer these questions, though Tommaso Di Salvo sees in the story an answer to the rationalizing reader's question, how Vergil knows his way around, even as Vergil provided an answer to the question how the Sibyl knew. Let us take it from there. Lucan's Erictho, in the same-numbered book as Aeneas' katabasis and all the more a kind of anti-Sibyl, could also substitute for Hecate (who as a heathen goddess was not available for Dante), since as Lucan tells us (6. 513-15): coetus audire silentum, nosse domos Stygias arcanaque Ditis operti non superi, non uita uetat. Neither the gods above nor her own way of life forbid her to hear the assemblies of the silent dead, to know the Stygian halls and the secrets of hidden Dis. However, since unlike Hecate she does not reside in the underworld, she operates by power of magical command, bringing a dead man back to life in order that he may prophesy to Sextus; she picks over the unburied corpses; wolves and carrion-birds while she chooses one to be her soothsayer: dum Thessala uatem eligit. Dante, I suggest, while no doubt being fully aware of the real meaning, creatively reinterpreted this as 'when [a standard medieval use of _dum_] she chooses the inspired poet', namely Vergil, who is made to fetch the deceased soul so that he shall know the way when Dante needs him to do so. The soul so fetched is no more in need of identification than the dead soldier whom Lucan's Erictho restores to life. I offer this to be improved upon. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: The Importance of Creusa
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Zara Hayat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Apart from telling Aeneas his destiny in the form of a ghost (an event that, together with her death, is crucial to move the story along), is Creusa an important character? She is also important as the mother of Iulus/Ascanius, who remembers her (9. 297); but if you mean is her individual character important, beyond that of being a loving wife who releases her husband from his grief, and a loving daughter-in-law who helps persuade Anchises to leave Troy, the answer appears to be no. Neither is Lavinia of much importance as an individual human being, rather than a fulfilleress of function (gender-suffix deliberate, as indicating a role women are liable to be assigned); the one was, and the other will be, a Good Wife. Contrast Dido. Leofranc Holford-Strevens --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Re: VIRGIL: conceptions of time (was ein Weihnachtsgruß)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes What is the purpose of these ruined cities (which are mentioned only briefly)? Are they a prophecy of what Rome will come to in the end? In which case there is not going to be much progress after all... There was a prophecy that Rome would one day perish; and Scipio the younger had thought on those lines, or so Polybius tells us. I don't think you have to read it that way: for me (and perhaps for Virgil also) ruins are romantic as well as melancholy, because they connect us with the past. Insofar as they are ruins, they are monitory. Where is the horse and rider? / Where is the horn that was blowing? And so on. But ruins are also remnants. And they invite continuation, in a way that the finished monument, intact and imposing, does not. There is a similar puzzle at the end of Met. XV: will the Golden Age of Augustus really last forever, or will it give way to the Changefulness that Pythagoras has just finished saying (at the beginning of Met. XV) is the abiding principle of the universe? All part of the Pythagoras problem in that book: when Ovid introduces his speech with the words docta quidem soluit, sed non et credita, uerbis are we meant to reflect on human blindness in the face of wisdom, or to write the philosopher off as a silly old fool? As with Janus' denunciation of rampant greed in book 1 of the Fasti, do we really want to live the abstemious and impoverished life of virtue--do you, hypocrite lecteur, mon semblable, mon frère? Leofranc Holford-Strevens --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Mantovano
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Phillip Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I am not familiar with the name Mantovano as it relates to Virgil. Can you tell me the connection? Tennyson so addressed Vergil, using the modern Italian form of the ethnic: I salute thee, Mantovano, I that loved thee since my day began, Wielder of the stateliest measure ever moulded by the lips of man. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Remember me?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Patrick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In regard to the current discussion on teaching the Aeneid in translation, an expression that seems to have become embedded in the English-speaking psyche since the time of Purcell's Dido Aeneas (and maybe before) is remember me as a special request. Does Virgil actually put any such words into Dido's mouth (I tried to find such and failed)? No, nothing so resigned: a good round curse, other revenge having been contemplated (4. 563-4) but not executed (4. 600-6). It is Aeneas who says he will not be sorry [i.e. be very happy] to remember her (4. 335). Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil in translation
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes because the phrase exactly conveys the feeling of a poetic nightpiece---which, by the way, I'm sure must be a form antedating Virgil, but I can't cite examples. Try Apollonius Rhodius 3. 744-50 (setting up the contrast with the sleepless Medea) Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: the anchises, aeneas group
See too Jane Davidson Reid with Chris Rohmann, _The Oxford Guide to Classical Mythology in the Arts, 1300-1990s_, 2 vols. (New York and Oxford), 1993, vol. i, pp. 43-5, covering all the arts. Leofranc Holford-Strevens In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Johan Hanselaer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In A. Pigler, Barockthemen. Eine Auswahl von Verzeichnissen zur Ikonographgie des 17. und 18. Jahrhunderts, Budapest, 1974 (2n edn), vol. II: pp. 283ff: Geschichte des Äneas. pp. 286-289: Äneas trägt seinen Vater Anchises aus dem brennenden Troja. List of works from antiquity to 18th c. Yours truly, Johan HANSELAER http://home.tiscalinet.be/beledimar (Editions, printed in Belgium before 1801, on the Market) * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - Johan HANSELAER Koning Albertlaan 71 B-9000 Gent België/Belgique/Belgien/Belgium http://home.tiscalinet.be/beledimar (Editions, printed in Belgium before 1801, on the Market) -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dave Emes Verzonden: vrijdag 23 mei 2003 8:42 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: VIRGIL: the anchises, aeneas group Besides Raphael's painting Fire in the Borgo, Bernini's sculpture Aeneas, Anchises, and Ascanius, and Preti's painting Aeneas, Anchises, and Ascanius Fleeing Troy, what other artists in what works have employed this subject? Thanks for any help. Ex animo, David Emes --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Rome founded by Trojan women?
I participated in an earlier discussion of this problem on another list; there seems to be no new papyrus involved, and if the piece is meant to be serious at all, it is probably the result of confusing Stesichorus' connection with the Tabula Iliaca and a tradition mentioned in Dionysius of Halicarnassus on, I believe, a woman Rhome founding the City (unfortunately, I do not have the exact reference at hand). I thought that might be it: see Dionysius Halicarnassus, _Roman Antiquities_ 1. 72. 2, ascribed to 'the man who collected the priestesses in Argos and the events of their individual tenures'. It is clearly incompatible with the Tabula Iliaca, if in despite of Horsfall we allow that to illustrate Steschorus' Iliou Persis. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Rome founded by Trojan women?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Patrick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Subscribers, if they are not aware of it already, may be interested in knowing that, according to Rome's Il Messaggero newspaper, a fragment of writing by the Graeco-Sicilian poet Stesichorus (638-555 BC) recounts how a woman named Roma arrived with a Trojan fleet in an idyllic place that could easily be Rome, burnt her boats and founded the eponymous city there. The story is here: http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/22/wrome22 .xmlsSheet=/news/2003/04/22/ixworld.html When I tried it, the page was said not to be available. Is this said to be a new fragment, or have I forgotten something? Leofranc Holford-Strevens (Don't forget to join the two bits of the link together) One wonders if Virgil was aware of this alternative version of the founding of Rome. Patrick Roper --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Ugly reeds?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Patrick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In Georgics IV, 478/9, Virgil writes deformis harundo/Cocyti. This has been translated unsightly reeds of Cocytus. I wonder if it would be possible to interpret this as deformed reeds of Cocytus. The question is whether deformis designates a universal quality of reeds or a particular quality of *these* reeds, the reeds growing by the River of Lamentation, ugly and misshapen to match the black mud and stagnant water of the unlovely mere. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: What others say about Virgil
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Hieronymus Prechtl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Halifax, Nova Scotia October 17, 2:00 pm DONATUS: a few things here and there, like that Cicero, having familiarized himself with every nuance of the Bucolics, was so impressed that he declared Virgil the second great hope of Rome, as if he himself were the first hope of the Latin language and Virgil the second. Where does Donatus say that? and what time had Cicero to read even a single eclogue before being murdered? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Kaster volume?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Helen Conrad- O'Briain [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Venier's 'Per una storia del testo di Virgilio nella prima eta del libro a stampa' arrived this morning, and I stumbled across something quite interesting in the bibliography: R. A. Kaster, The tradition of the text of the Aeneid in the ninth century, New York, 1990. I assume that this is his Harvard dissertation published -, but I have never seen a reference to it before. Has anyone seen it? Does anyone know the publisher Garland; ISBN 0824033051 Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Early Vergil printings and another request
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Helen Conrad- O'Briain [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Could someone suggest to an unreconstructed early medievalist a good discussion of incunabula Vergils? Matteo Venier, _Per uns storia del testo di Virgilio nella prima età del libro a stampa (1469-1419) (Udine: Forum, 2001), ch. 2; for Venice see too Craig Kallendorff, _A Bibligraphy of Venetian Editions of Virgil, 1470-1599_ (Littera Antiqua, 3; Florence: Olschki, 1991), 17-52. You might find something in Paola Casciano, 'L'edizione romana del 1471 di Virgilio di Sweynheym e Pannartz', in Massimo Miglo with P. Farenga and A. Modigliani (ed.), _Scrittura biblioteche e stampa a Roma nel Quattrocento: Atti del 2o seminario 6-8 maggio 1982_ (Vatican Cit: Scuola Vaticana di Paleografia, Diplomatica e Archivistica, 1983), 653-68. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: naming conventions
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Emma Guest [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Great question, David, and as an art historian I haven't the least idea of how to answer it! I do have a second part to it. Who decides or how does one decide whether to use Virgil or Vergil? Is it an American v English question? In Italian he is always Virgilio I don't recall ever seeing Vergilio even though in the 15th c. Poliziano proved that the correct spelling is Vergilius not Virgilius. Thoughts on i v e would also be most appreciated. I had always blamed the i on interference from virgo_, cf. the poet's nickname Parthenias (and Milton, the Maid of Christ's). So too the sweetest maid in Rome became Virginia instead of Verginia. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], James Butrica [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes By the way, in other traditions of catabasis, how do living mortals return from the Underworld? In the so-called Orphic Catabasis of P. Bon. 4, the last legible letters, a few lines from the end of the poem, are sigma kappa alpha phi, which would appear to come from either skaphion or skaphis; one would presume that this meant not 'bowl' but 'boat', suggesting that the visitor departed the same way as he had come, on Charon's skiff. As for Aeneas, what hypothesis does not run into obstacles? If the false dreams in any way represent the foreshadowings of Rome's future in Anchises' speech, how is it that his account fits well enough with standard Roman tradition? (If anything might have raised eyebrows outside the Palatium it was the lament for the young Marcellus, whose death, a setback for the project of hereditary monarchy, would hardly have been a cause for grief amongst those who still harboured republican sentiments.) If the idea is that military glory etc. are in some way a false path, then why didn't Augustus let the _Aeneid_ be destroyed in accordance with the poet's own wishes? (Or are we robust enough to declare the whole tale of the violated _fideicommissum_ a fiction?) If anything at all can be saved of the self-referential theory, it would have to be based on the fuzzy logic of dreams: of course what I am telling you is a myth, for the Muses know how to tell lies that resemble truth (Hesiod, _Theogony_ 27). In the cold light of day, or prose paraphrase, that cannot withstand the arguments that Jim O'Hara has deployed; does that mean it is false, or that that is not the light to view it in? As Jim says, Aeneas is somehow associated with false dreams; that 'somehow' must, one presumes, be rather more than the fact of leaving by the same gate, as if anyone who left Rome by (say) the Porta Capena were an associate or confederate of everyone else who did so. But precisely how. or are we not allowed to ask precisely? And if ever we know how, then why? (Suppose for instance that the wink theory could somehow be made to stand up, why should Vergil wish to play that game?) Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Barbarico auro
In message Pine.GSO.3.95-960729.1020118110908.24173A-
[EMAIL PROTECTED], M W Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
This is mainly a reply to a reply of some time ago (I've been disrupted
by my wife's death). I mentioned the reference to
'pillars decorated with gold, barbarian-style' (A II 504; following, I
think, words attributed to Cassandra by Naevius and admired by Cicero) as
problem illustrating V's use of 'focalisation', or as an indication of V's
readiness to exploit variant focalisation - uncertainty about whose point
of view certain words represent - in order to create an interesting
effect. ()Is Aeneas focalising 'barbarico' so that it refers to how the
Greek conquerors think or is he beginning, after seven years of exile
mainly amid Greek cultural influences, to think that there was something
barbaric about Troy?
Since the verse as a whole runs 'barbarico postes auro spoliisque
superbi', a hendiadys denoting spoils consisting in barbarian gold, the
reference, at the most literal level, is to gold (a metal in which
barbarians were known to rejoice) captured from the Trojans' subject
peoples such as the barbarous-voiced Carians of Iliad 2. 867; likewise
in Ennius (not Naevius) 'adstante ope barbarica' means 'with your
barbarian auxiliaries for bodyguards'. On that footing, the Trojans
would not themselves be barbarians; there need be no more contempt or
disrespect than in images of fine manly Indian and African soldiers in
our own imperial days, but it would seem unduly reductive to interpret
the word as simply 'speaking foreign languages'.
On the other hand, if we assume a self-inclusive sense ('our
fellow barbarians'), the question is whether the appropriate parallel is
the use by Aeschylus' Persians of barbaroi to denote themselves, a term
put in their mouths by a Greek, or the Romans' self-referential use of
_barbarus_ in Plautus' day, which in principle might be due to ignorance
or to acceptance of a Greek view of things but in my opinion is far
likelier to be the proud appropriation of an insult (like 'Whig',
'Tory', 'Old Contemptibles', and more recently 'Iron Lady', a badge of
honour proffered to a grateful Mrs Thatcher by some dunderhead on TASS).
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone
Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter?
OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
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Re: VIRGIL: Helen's robe
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Patrick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Thanks to Leofranc and David for help on Helens' robe and Mrs Swancourt's rings. The passage in Thomas Hardy finishes with a heniadys of his own which can scarcely be accidental: Beyond this rather quaint array of stone and metal Mrs Swancourt wore no ornament whatever. (But is 'stone and metal' really a hendiadys?) Not really: the sense is not 'stony metal' or 'metallic stone'. I suspect all this was aimed at his friend and Classics tutor Horace Moule, rather than the general public whom he hoped would be reading his novel. Between the mass public and the old tutor there stands that very large body of educated general readers who had done their school Latin would have read the early books of the Aeneid, even if little other Latin poetry apart from Horace and some Catullus; but why take a minimalist view when even knowledge of Greek was more widespread amongst educated men, and indeed educated women, than at any time before or since? (Indeed, competence in both was required for admission to Oxford and Cambridge.) Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Helen's robe
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Patrick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In chapter 12 of 'A Pair of Blue Eyes, the novel by Thomas Hardy, the author says of Mrs Swancourt She had held out to Elfride hands whose fingers were literally stiff with rings, signis auroque rigentes, like Helen's robe The Latin is from The Aeneid Book 1, verse 648 and, I think, should read signis auroque rigentem. Indeed, but Hardy naturally changed it to agree with the plural 'fingers'. I have seen this translated as stiff with rings and gold and stiff with golden wire. Neither is right: it means 'stiff with golden embroidery', or more expansively 'with figures embroidered in gold thread': _signis auroque_ is a hendiadys, equivalent to _signis aureis_. I am not quite sure how either of these two version was arrived at, but it seems most likely to me that Helen's robe or 'palla' would have been woven with gold filigree and thus somewhat rigid. Hardy's comparison therefore seems rather inappropriate, especially as he goes on to describe Mrs Swancourt's rings as heavy and grotesque and far from anything attributed by Virgil to Helen. _Signum_, amongst its many other meanings, may be a signet-ring; hence the humorous application to Mrs Swancourt's rings. 'Inappropriate' misses the point: the reader is expected to observe the incongruity and smile. I wonder if Hardy had translated the Latin himself Of course; it's hardly a difficult achievement. and if he really thought his average 19th century reader would be well enough versed in the Aeneid to enjoy his quotation. Certainly yes, and certainly rightly. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: trojan horse story
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Simon Cauchi
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Besides the Aeneid, in how many other ancient writings (pre- and
post-Virgil) does the story of the Trojan Horse and, particularly, the
role of Sinon, appear?
Lempriere in his Classical Dictionary cites the following references at the
end of the article on Sinon:
Dares Phrygius; Homer, Odyssey 8.492 and 11.521; Virgil, Aeneid 2.79ff.;
Pausanias 10, chap. 27; and lastly Q. Smyrn. 10 (whoever and whatever
that is).
Quintus of Smyrna, Posthomerica; a late imperial poem on events after
the Iliad, not very wonderful but with a rather good episode in book 10
when the wounded Paris begs Oenone to heal him; she gives him the brush-
off ('Get out of my house and go to Helen'), then decides too late that
she does still love him after all and throws herself on his funeral
pyre.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone
Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter?
OX2 6EJ
tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
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Re: VIRGIL: Annius of Viterbo
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mike Gascoigne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Can anyone tell me if Annius of Viterbo (late 15th century) went to Mantovano and discovered some documents which he attributed to Berosus? If so, were there any academic institutions where he might have found that type of document? No, he made them up. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's Influence on Rural Art In the Roman Era
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Carson G Manzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] enquires about landscape paintings inspired by the Bucolics and Georgics; some will be found under 'Arcadia' in _The Oxford Guide to Classical Mythology in the Arts, 1300-1990s_, ed. Jane Davidson Reid with the assistance of Chris Rohmann (New York, 1993). It covers all the arts, and is arranged by mythological subject. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: 5-word hexameters
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura From: Tim Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 21:48:29 + This came in when I was about to leave the country; I hoped when I came back to find a discussion in full swing. As it is, I had better try to get one going myself. I have been re-reading Aeneid 8.306-341 and was struck by the 6 instances of 5-word hexameters contained within this passage alone. Seeing that I could not entirely pin down quite why these instances seemed significant to me, I wondered whether anyone on the list had any thoughts on the significance (or otherwise) of the number of words that appear in any one line of Virgil? I THINK my attention to the 5-word hexameters in this passage was probably spurred by a dim recollection of Eclogue 2.24: AMPHION DIRCAEUS IN ACTAEO ARACYNTHO Clausen declares this to be a verse of the most precious Alexandrian sort. By this is he pointing solely to the learned allusions and the distintive rhythm of Actaeo Aracyntho - or do the number of words in the line have any part to play in this assessment? The line would go straight back into Greek with nothing but the odd vowel changed; in fact five-words hexameters are harder to find in Greek because of the greater number of small particles and pronouns. But this raises the question of whether they should be called words, to which I shall return below; we print Latin _-que_ together with what precedes and its Greek counterpart _te_ separately, but what right does that give is to say the former is not a word and the latter is? There is another notable line in the Eclogues (5.73): SALTANTIS SATYROS IMITABITUR ALPHESIBOEUS. Here of course the effect is of cheerful galumphsome rustic dancing. Clausen remarks on this line that 4 word hexameters are rare in Virgil (he cites 7 other examples). So I suppose the more general question becomes: when does the number of words in a line become significant? Anyway, back to 5-word hexameters and the particular passage I had in mind, Aeneid 8.306-341. I can see that a line with 5 words in it can attain a certain symmetry (esp. in a Golden Line). As for instance in: 8.334: FORTUNA OMNIPOTENS ET INELUCTABILE FATUM and (esp if we read the variant Romano rather than Romani) 8.338: ET CARMENTALEM ROMANO NOMINE PORTAM and 8.341: AENEADAS MAGNOS ET NOBILE PALLANTEUM But is there any greater significance than the patterning of words here? And how about the other examples that do not display so obvious an ordering: 8.309: INGREDIENS UARIOQUE UIAM SERMONE LEUABAT. 8.312: EXQUIRITQUE AUDITQUE UIRUM MONIMENTA PRIORUM. 8.322: COMPOSUIT LEGESQUE DEDIT, LATIUMQUE UOCARI. When the line is syntactically self-contained (as in the first three), the effect is surely one of solemnity, appropriate to the pre-foundation (as one might call it) of Rome; I am not so sure about the last three, all of which are enjambed. However, if we are to talk about these matters, we had better agree on what a word is. If a group of syllables under a single stress, then prepositions and conjunctions do not count as words (and indeed may until modern times be found written together with what follows); if that which is contained between two spaces or other word-dividers, then in ancient usage enclitic -que- may be a word. I have to admit that my access to the usual reference books is rather limited at the moment, so I must apologise if some of these questions could readily be answered elsewhere. However, if this query sets off a more general discussion about Virgil's use of metre then it would have been worth it for that alone. Many thanks Tim Saunders --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Anthrax
In message Pine.GSO.3.95-960729.1011025205254.19521A- [EMAIL PROTECTED], M W Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I think V generally tries to get his scientific facts right, A very good subject for debate, pitting the late-antique 'It's all there in Vergil' school against the likes of Horsfall, but he is always more interested in making moral and religious and literary, cf. the apt comment on the book-endings. rather than scientific points. His description: [...] As everyone since Servius has seen, this is the counterpart amongst the beasts to the Great Plague at Athens, which no one has diagnosed and not for want of trying. If we can't identify an undoubtedly historical disease, what chance have we with one that may have been made up? Mynors, though formally leaving the question of historicity open, makes no attempt to identify the Noricum plague; can any listmember in cattle country do better, or is the very attempt as fatuous as asking how many children had Lady Macbeth? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: why Virgil wanted to burn his poem
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes At 11:03 AM 10/18/01 +0100, Patrick Roper wrote: I thought that that might be the case, after all most creative people feel they could have done better - the stuff on the page, isn't quite what seemed to be in the mind. But do we know this is what Virgil thought? Did he say so somewhere? Or did one of his contemporaries say that of him? As Patrick Roper and Jim O'Hara point out, we need to be skeptical. In addition to Thomas, see, for instance, Nicholas Horsfall, Virgil: His Life and Times, in _A Companion to the Study of Virgil_, ed. Nicholas Horsfall, Mnemosyne Supplement 151 (Leiden: Brill, 1995), pp. 1-25. Exactly. The all but explicit conclusion of Horsfall's analysis is that we do not even know *whether* Vergil wanted the _Aeneid_ burnt, never mind why. But the story is attractive on so many grounds: perfectionist poet, enlightened monarch, the rights of posterity against an author's wishes; after all, even those of us who are neither poets nor princes will be posterity to more and more authors as we grow older. (And if you rebel against the enlightened Augustus, then you can apply a different _color_, or in modern parlance spin, as Broch did.) It has also, from Hyginus onwards, licensed adverse criticism of particular passages within the supreme masterpiece: since Vergil recognized that his poem had faults, he must have agreed with the critic that this or that expression or assertion was one of them, and would have corrected it had he lived. The psychological utility of this safety-valve is rather more evident than its scientific value, since there is always someone else to say it isn't a fault at all (even in the case of the half-lines); readers just need the story to be true. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: question
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert T. White [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes LH-S scripsit: A few years ago our listowner (I think) posted some interesting comments about the strength and weaknesses of Dryden's version; unfortunately I cannot find them now. I was struck by his rendering of Aen. 6. 651-8: Dulces exuuiae, dum fata deusque sinebat, accipite hanc animam meque his exsoluite curis. Vixi et quem dederat cursum Fortuna peregi, et nunc magna mei sub terras ibit imago. Urbem praeclaram statui, mea moenia uidi, ulta uirum poenas inimico a fratre recepi; felix, heu nimium felix, si litora tantum numquam Dardaniae tetigissent nostra carinae. This is Book 4, I think... Oops! Lapsus digiti. LAH-S *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Turnus ~ Mark Antony?
In the same spirit, the duel might be thought to represent both the actual battle with Antony at Actium and the duel that Imp. Caesar refused to fight and could not have fought without upsetting the fiction that the war was being fought not between himself and Antony but between Rome and Egypt. Leofranc Holford-Strevens In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bob Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Another possible angle could be the destruction of alternative routes which Rome could take. Just as the different aspects of Dido are refracted and split into Amata and Lavinia, so that the former can be safely isolated and destroyed, while the latter remains as a tabula rasa for the imprint of imperial destiny, so the duality of Aeneas in Carthage - pius Octavian or decadent Antony - can be split into an Augustan Aeneas whose Antonine qualities are displaced onto Turnus and safely eliminated. Or maybe I'm getting carried away... Bob *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's mistakes
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Hello all: I'm writing on paper on the influence on Virgil's lfe on his writing of the work. I've decided to base one of my arguments on his death and how it left the Aeneid incomplete. I've read about there being half-lines in the book, but only two have been listed specifically (Book I l.534 and Book I l.560), and I doubt if that will serve to prove my point. I was wondering if any of you knew of any more. Any info. would be greatly appreciated. Lenora There are a lot more, which you will immediately see on reading the poem; there is also a well-known study of them by John Sparrow. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Dido's lament
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Patrick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I was reading Christina Rossetti's well-known poem 'Remember' yesterday and wondered if she had Purcell's famous aria 'Remember me' from Dido and Aeneas in mind when she wrote it. Or Marlowe's 'Dido Queen of Carthage', or, indeed, the Aeneid itself. Any of these could have been quite fresh in her mind as she wrote 'Remember' when she was only nineteen and therefore not long out of education. It may be taken for granted that she had read Vergil; it wouldbe interesting to show she knew the early modern works mentioned. Marlowe seems likelier than Tate/Purcell at that date. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's mistakes
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I am currently doing a study of Virgil's half lines or unfinished lines. I have merely touched the surface of these lines, but my initial reactions are such: most of the unfinished lines are unfinished by choice on Virgil's part to draw greater attention to these lines; however, some lines are obviously not unfinished by choice for they make little or no sense. Any insight about the unfinished lines? No-one in antiquity ever imitated them, though almost everything else in Vergil was imitated; the notion that they were intended has long since been exploded, by Sparrow if not before. We may find some of them striking, but so did the nineteenth century find the damaged limbs of the Melian Aphrodite (called the Vénus de Milo by those who make an icon of the ruin); at most we can say that because they make so fine an ending for their sentence, the poet could not at once see how to continue. By Seneca's time people were filling in the gaps. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Re: VIRGIL
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], James Butrica [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes ¿Podría alguien ayudarme a localizar una pgina donde exista algún tipo de foro de discusión sobre Lorenzo Valla y su obra en latín? Estoy buscando el comentario que realiza el autor al término latino Testamentum (quiz se encuentre en sus Elegantiae...pero no he podido consultarlas). Gracias de antemano por vuestra colaboración. I am unable to direct you to a web-page where Valla is discussed, but if you need the actual words that he wrote about the word Testamentum at 6.36 of the Elegantiae, I can provide that for you from the text of the editio Gryphiana of 1538: [. . .] In that of 1543, the chapter is followed by a note from Andreas Alciatus, De verborum significatione 2: Iustinianum inridet, qui testamentim dixerit, testaionem mentis esse, auctoritateque Gellii nititur, alioquin et ornamentum, uestimentum, pauimentum, idque genus similia, a mente deducerentur. respondeo, non etymologiam ibi Iustinianus adducit, sed allusionem, qualem Grammatici paronomasian, Rhetores parison habent, solumque in ea nominis conformitas spectatur: quod et Fab(ium) Quintil(ianum) non latuit, cum non ad originem uocis, sed ad soni similitudinem referatur, ut hoc casu eo melior fuit allusio, quod ueritatem etiam respicit.in testamentum enim mens potissimum dominatur. Since Justinian, Institutiones 2. 10. pr. writes 'Testamentum ex eo appellatur, quod testatio mentis est'. I am not sure this defence holds; but if it holds for Justinian against Valla, it holds for Ser. Sulpcius against Gellius (see _Noctes Atticae_ 7. 12, which to Valla and Alciatus was 6. 12)'. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's tomb; archaeology
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gregory Hays [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes This morning I rec'd the following query: From an archeological perspective I am trying to find a book/literature that physically describes/shows pictures etc. of Virgil's tomb at Naples. Can you offer any advice? You can find a photo of something so designated at: http://wings.buffalo.edu/AandL/Maecenas/italy_except_rome_and_sicily/naples/ac88 0803.html I tried it, but was told it was not available, either by expiry or by error. Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Double Firsts
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr Helen Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes ThanksLeofranc, I finally understand the reference in the Sword in the Stone where Madame Mim had a double first from - what was it Dom Daniel under the sea? By my day a double first was in Mods and Greats, i.e. langauge and literature (after five terms) and history and philosophy (after another seven, or twelve in all). So still now, except that the separation is less rigid. A few more comments before I depart these shores for musicological conferences in the USA; at one I am giving a paper on the influence of humanism on the language of Latin music treatises. Best wishes, Leofranc `165v-6v: Ars rhetorica Clodiani statibus' Thus? `Stokes and Strachan note the identification by Stern of mac Cialláin with a deacon Niall mac Giallain (Fiallain, Iallain) a reputed visionary who died in 854/8.' Non-Celticists deserve reassurance that the same man can have so many alternative consonants. `For its relationship to other manuscripts see Waldrop (1934). Waldrop (1934, 212) suggests'. Please let it be 'see Waldrop (1934), who suggests (212)'. `the names of Irish scholars and the passages they are apparently written against - usually identifiable by the appearance of enlarged letters in the text in a general study of all the Irish names and a close study of the more than seventy references to John Scottus.' Second dash needed after `text'. `Ellergy to Macenas': Ellery McQueen? `(Lindsay (1915), p. 234)'. Thus within a text of 1934? `Wolfenbüttel, Aug.20 7.10 [W] for Sevius [g] for Vergil' Presumably Servius not Sevius Nicanor. `Discussion: A direct copy of V made before its losses Mynor's [g] a close copy of [P] Vat.. Pal. lat 1631 in Lorsch in the ninth century' Mynors's, but the rest is a mite incoherent. *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: RE: Vergilian seances
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Peter Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes As for post-mortem meetings with Virgil, I have collected a few examples of which the following is probably the most entertaining. The novel Penguin Island(L'ile des pingouins (1908)) by Anatole France (1844-1924) Is indeed well worth reading. But the translator was deceived by a _faux ami_: although both come from the same Celtic phrase for 'white head', _un pingouin_ is not a penguin (a bird confined to the Southern Hemisphere, in French _un manchot_) but a Great Awk; hence of course the name of the aristocratic house 'Greatauk ducs du Skull'. Virgil mentions that he had received another visitor about a century and a half before, who had come from an ancient Etruscan colony founded by Sulla near Fiesole on the banks of the Arno. Virgil had not been impressed and considered him to be a barbarian. In particular he isn't much impressed by rhyme: 'Cet artifice ne me semble point ingénieux; mais ce n'est pas aux morts à juger les nouveautés.' Query (for another list, when you want to be philosophical but not too serious): _why_ is it not for the dead to judge of innovations? Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: The Devil Knows Latin: A Further Word
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], JAMES C Wiersum [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I too think that mathematics and the classics go together. They used to do at Oxford; in the early nineteenth century a 'double first' meant a first in Literae Humaniores and a first in mathematics. It is not for me to say what America needs, but I do wonder why people on the list are so dogmatic about criticizing ancient values from the standard of modern liberalism (never vice versa) without even wondering what right they have to be judge in their own cause. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Bucolic 2: umbrosa cacumina
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neven Jovanovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Dear Vergiliani, working on a Croatian translation of Vergil's Bucolica, I was not satisfied with Clausen's commentary (or reticence) on B. 2,3: tantum inter densas, umbrosa cacumina, fagos (assidue ueniebat...) How can _cacumina_, that is, the tree-tops, be _umbrosa_? They're on top, aren't they? Would you prefer to take _umbrosa_ as passive or active adjective? Isn't it both, in the poet's characteristic manner: they cast shadows not only on the ground but on each other (the trees are close together), and therefore receive shadows too. We ought not to be too rigorously logical in these matters. Yours, Neven *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Philip Thibodeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The collection of quotations regarding P. Virgilius Maro was very entertaining. I recall reading a review of a book on PVM and wondering whether this was an April Fool's edition of the journal it was in! At any rate, the book might be worth mentioning: it's by Vivien Law, and is called, Wisdom, authority, and grammar in the seventh centruy : decoding Virgilius Maro Grammaticus (Cambridge University Press, 1995). She tries valiantly to place PVM within his context, and does something useful in that respect, as I recall. No poisson d'Avril by her or by the journal; but PVM had his tongue in his cheek all right. The debate between 'Terrentius' (sic, a frequent Irish spelling; but remember how Varro is always working his _nomen_ in) and 'Galbungus' on the vocative of _ego_ recalls the debate in Gellius 14.5 on the vocative of egregius. *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas' treason?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes About a month ago a gentleman from Oxford commented on Dido's mention of impia facta as possibly referring to Aeneas' treason? Would the Oxford gentleman kindly elaborate on I can't think of any such instance, nor can I imagine that Vergil would want the Roman reader to regard him as guilty of treason, something very contrary to his main character quality, pietas. Laomedon, an ancestor of Aeneas, certainly had a very untrustworthy character. His record with Hercules, etc. indicates it clearly. This is the story that Aeneas (who felt under-valued by Priam, Iliad 13. 461, cf. Achilles' words to him at 20. 178-86) secured his escape from Troy by handing the city over to the Greeks: see Menecrates of Xanthos (Fragmente der griechischen Historiker 799 F 3 quoted by Dionysius of Halicarnassus, _Roman Antiquities_ 1.48.3) Greek writers made much of it during the period of Roman conquest; see Casali's footnote in the article I cited, Classical Quarterly, new series 49, 1999, 206 n. 6. Dido, it is argued, had heard the story (the queen of Juno's city would know all about Trojan crimes), and wishes she had remembered it at the right time. There is of course no reason to take her view of the matter; but it was a very well established story, mentioned more than once by Servius. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Apologies
Dear colleagues, Many apologies for posting a private message to the list; I have already apologized to the intended recipient. My only excuse is that it was 1 a.m. in England. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Latin verse in grammar schools
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Forwarded message from: Robin Sowerby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:42:40 +0100 I decided to make contact via the internet with other Virgilians because I am rather isolated at my university where there is no classics department and I have come up against a problem to which so far I have not been able to find the answer. Part of my current project requires that I find evidence for the teaching of Latin verse in grammar schools in the Renaissance and beyond. Virgil and Ovid, then as now, must have been the main models for neo-Latinists as they made their own verse compositions. I have browsed the British Library catalogue and drawn a blank; I can find no manuals of verse composition for the earlier period at all. This material must exist if I knew the right place in which to look. Do you know of any scholars who might be able to help me? - Robin Sowerby In the Middle Ages there was the Doctrinale of Alexander de Villa Nova; from the seventeenth century onwards the Gradus ad Parnassum. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: translations
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], James M. Pfundstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes James Pfundstein writes: I hope I didn't give the wrong impression-- I'm a big reader of 19th Century stuff-- I'm very fond of Tennyson, for instance, and Morris. (I also read a lot of Dashiell Hammett-- Hemingway I take in smaller doses.) But the translation style which larded each line with awkward and innaccurate English, is bad, was bad then, will always be bad. The early Loebs of A.S. Way are a perfect example of this stuff. Horses for courses; he was arguably the right man to do Quintus Smyrnaeus, but not Euripides. Leofranc H.-S. *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: translations
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:42:28 -0400 From: Lena Friesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello all-- I'm new here, so pardon me if this has been discussed before - I was wondering what the better translations are of the Aeneid, I own the Knight and West prose versions already, are there any else? I came across a Dover edition but I didn't like it as it was too old-fashioned, done in Victorian-era language. Virgil (as I understand it) wrote in a plain style. Am I right? Absolutely not; and no-one would have cared for him if he had. Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: re: Why A Horse?
I seem to remember seeing a vase, or sherd of a vase, in West Berlin, as it was then, in which Athena is fashioning a horse. I haven't got LIMC beside me at the moment, but someone may know what I'm talking about. Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: paid for propaganda?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Timothy Mallon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes At what historical moment was anything of the kind first thought? It doesn't match anything I have read in classical or other pre-modern authors; it seems to me a product of the socio-economic alienation of the intellectual. (Only an intellectual could envisage the redesign of reality; only an alienated one would be interested in so doing. But of course we first have to define reality; and 'real', like 'free', is one of those words most easily understood from their opposites in any given context.) Wouldn't Plato fit the definition of an alienated or disaffected intellectual? He certainly contemplated the redesign of much of the society he was born in. Indeed he was an alienated intellectual who hated democracy and whose personal connections lay with that gang of alienated intellectuals whose government had discredited oligarchy for two generations. But he was not concerned with redesigning what he understood to be reality, but with finding out what it was. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Re: Cornix, Georgics and Alliteration
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neven Jovanovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The easy solution, or interpretation, of G. 1,388 would be to read _crow's s's_--and C's and H--as the sound of _sand_, harena: et Sola in SiCCa SeCum Spatiatur Harena There probably are strong reasons to resolutely reject the very existence of any _Tonmalerei_ in all poetry. I cannot think even of weak ones: at best one may doubt a particular instance, but poetry is written neither for nor by cloth-eared logicians. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: paid for propaganda?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Philip Thibodeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes There can be no doubt that there is a great difference between the social and economic conditions for patronage in antiquity and for more modern critics; and the a priori notion that the poets' rightful place is in opposition to the establishment does seem to be characteristically modern. On the other hand, the projection of this idea onto ancient Rome, and onto the Augustan Age in particular, is not as anachronistic as some make it out to be. Consider that, 1) while most poets, then as now, were little more than producers of cacata carta, the fact is that a great or even a popular poet was regarded as a marvellous, somewhat uncanny figure - 'divine', as an ancient might say. A major poet was seen as doctus, prudens, sapiens; informed, canny, and wise. For this reason, poets on the level of Vergil and Horace possessed a certain power. Readers knew that they were great men, even if they could not always say why (cf. Propertius' nescio quid maius Iliade). The safest course was simply to praise them, to kick them upstairs into a snug canonicity. 2) Part of their power resided in their unpredictability. Major poets are the constant object of requests for panegyric; most of these commissions they refuse, and they have the luxury of choosing the ones they want. When they accept a commission, the inevitable result is never *just* a piece of panegyric. Callimachus wrote in praise of his patrons on a number of occasions; no doubt Ptolemy and Berenice expected their requests to be fulfilled with something to make the heart throb. Instead what they get are things like a chattering lock of hair, lamenting its apotheosis. The praise is there, sure; but the poem itself is surprising and comes ever so close to being - crazy. But why can't the patrons ever be sophisticated enough to appreciate it, and to see that it did them more good than the uninspired panegyric? Consider Choerilus of Iasos, the notoriously bad poet who accompanied Alexander on his conquests and is set up in shameful contrast to the great painter Apelles and great sculptor Lysippus who alone were permitted to represent the great man visually. (Not that our sources ever say whom Alexander ought to have commssioned to write about him instead.) Vergil's and Horace's panegyrics can have the same over-the-top character (cf. the prologue to the first Georgic and H's Cleopatra Ode.) Is the Cleopatra ode over the top? Not nearly as much as Ode 1.2; but it is significant that these poems, like the Georgic prologue, seem to be from early in the reign. Perhaps Augustus dropped a hint that he would rather not be assassinated by people thinking he wanted to be a Hellenistic god-king, thank you very much. Are they being serious? Comic? Laudatory? Cynical? You can't pin them down. That is not an accident of scholarship; it is an essential characteristic of their poems. 3) Precisely because it is so unpredictable, good poetry always has the *potential* to serve as an expression of dissent. 'Dissent', of course, is a broad term - it has to cover phenomena as diverse as Ovid's cheerfully immoral poems (and the carmen that won him exile), Hasn't Ovid recently been represented as an ultra-loyalist whose loyalty was not appreciated? Catullus' tiff with Caesar over some lines of poetry, Lucan's hyper-republican epic, with its ambiguous praise of Nero, Not half so subversive in that as it is of its own Republicanism: Pompey was by no means the past-it feebleton whom Lucan depicts, nor did Cicero urge battle at Pharsalus because he longed to hear the sound of his own voice (he wasn't even there). Personally I see Lucan as Nero's crony (cf. L'incoronazione di Poppea) till Nero became jealous of the better poet; when Lucan cited Nero's 'sub terra tonuisse putes' in the public lavatories that may not have been dissent, but the (possibly ill-judged) self-confident of the favourite. and Curiatius Maternus, the star of Tacitus' Dialogus, who 'broke the power of Vatinius' in Nero's time by 'reading tragedies'. These (and the rest of Philip's message) make good points; but don't court poets usually spend most of their capacity for dislike or dissent on each other, only turning against the ruler when he fails to take them at their own valuation? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead
Re: VIRGIL: paid for propaganda?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], michell pre- [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The need is psychological; even a bad review is better than none. But that's just mentioning a delight in any form of progress, as long as anything is happening. A med-student might cut his finger in dissection, but this is not so bad. Language. Its not a social drive, its not a drive to be social, but to get rid of sociality, to resignify reality. At what historical moment was anything of the kind first thought? It doesn't match anything I have read in classical or other pre-modern authors; it seems to me a product of the socio-economic alienation of the intellectual. (Only an intellectual could envisage the redesign of reality; only an alienated one would be interested in so doing. But of course we first have to define reality; and 'real', like 'free', is one of those words most easily understood from their opposites in any given context.) Praise or harrassment, the poet at least feels it is getting somewhere, perhaps, would the poet recieve nothing, no bad nor good review, the poet would be content. But no one ever gives the poet nothing. They either ignore the poet, praise it, or harrass it. Its always something deliberate. Perhaps the poet just wants people to stop deliberating? Something to do with language. Can you describe the psychological need, Being neither a poet nor a psychologist, no; I can only observe, or will this put the list off terribly? Probably, but I can't anyway. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Sabine Women
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], john dwyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Can anyone furnish me with name of an artist who has portrayed the Rape of the Sabine Women (viii 822ff)? The first who comes to mind is David (Les Sabines, 1799, in the Louvre). Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes More humour in Vergil invitus, regina, tuo de litore cessi (Bk 6) reference to Catullus' Lock of Berenice invitus, regina, tuo de cervice cessi, a singularly incongruous intertextualism at a singularly inapposite moment. I have always thought invitus, regina to be as bad as W. S. Gilbert's a thing of shreds and patches. But a closer analogy would be if The Yeoman of the Guard were an Elizabethan operetta and Hamlet a 19th cent. tragedy, so that we would find fault with Shakespeare's line rather than Gilbert's. Or rather, as Fletcher puts it better, the sense of incongruity is much as we should feel if we came upon a line from Pope's Rape of the Lock in Keats' Hyperion. I don't think Virgil intended the line to be humorous, though. Despite the source from which it is taken, the effect is pathetic (I mean, pathos is the intended effect). Isn't it? Aeneas does express a sense of desperation in this speech, and there's always something a bit ridiculous about any male -- let alone an epic hero -- making excuses and vowing he had no choice in the matter. But I suspect there is a bimillennial cultural gulf here (as in so much else to do with the Aeneid), and that interpretation is necessarily uncertain. Indeed; there is a parallel in Horace's _recusatio_ to Augustus at _Epist._ 2.1/250-7: I would much rather write an epic in your honour than these earth-bound _sermones_ if I had the talent. nec sermones ego mallem 250 repentes per humum quam res componere gestas terrarumque situs et flumina dicere et arces montibus impositas et barbara regna tuisque auspiciis totum confecta duella per orbem claustraque custodem pacis cohibentia Ianum 255 et formidatam Parthis te principe Romam, si quantum cuperem possem quoque. Hands up anyone who can say what verse 255 reminds him or her off. Yes, that's right, Cicero's infamous line O fortunatam natam me consule Romam. Subversion? A sly but friendly jest? Inadvertence? Or was _O fortunatam_ not yet the stock example of bad verse it had become by Silver times? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
Many thanks to Neven for Nicholas Modrussiensiensis; but if I may expand on my own dissertation, where I had occasion to comment on 'facetiis' at Gellius 2. 23. 3 'ita Graecarum, quas aemulari nequiuerunt, facetiis atque luminibus obsolescunt' [i.e. Roman comedies are not a patch on the Greek originals]: To the English reader _facetus_ is a 'faux ami': it implied not schoolboyishness but polished elegance; not always even humour; cf. Quintilian 6.3.20: Facetum quoque non tantum citca ridicula opinor consistere; neque enim diceret Horatius facetum carminis genus concessum esse Vergilio. Decoris hanc magis et excultae cuiusdam elegantiae appellationem puto. Ideoque in epistulis Cicero haec Bruti refert uerba: ne illi sunt pedes faceti ac +deliciis ingredienti mollius+ [text corrupt, but reference is to mincing gait]. Quod conuenit cum illo Horatiano molle atque facetum. It is allied to _urbanitas_; cf. Catullus 36. 19 'pleni ruris et inficetiarum', 22. 14 'idem infaceto est infacetior rure'. To be sure a sense of humour is not excluded (see Fordyce on Catullus 43. 8), but 'hoc etiam animaduertendum est, non esse omnia ridicula faceta' (Cicero, _De oratore_ 2. 251). In Horace, if 'facetum' is to be translated 'witty', let it be in the eighteenth-century sense rather than the twentieth. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Clare Studwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I brought up this question about a week ago about the ekphrasis in Book VI (lines 20-36) of Vergil's Aeneid. Unfortunately I received NO responses. If you have any opinion on the role of this ekphrasis on the temple doors which Daedalus created, please let me know. Thanks. Clare I had been meaning to find a moment to think about the passage, but for the time being: a journey through the air counterpoises one to the underworld; and the ekphrasis before this major episode recalls that before another, in Carthage. Quite inadequate, but perhaps it will stimulate someone else, like the crystal that seeds a supersaturated solution into precipitating. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: source of quotation please
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I can't find it as yet, but Amores i.3.18 is rather similar, so it's probably Ovid, but I'm pretty sure it's not Amores Neither have I found it yet, but what classical author writes 'sicque'? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Juno's supplication
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Sorry, this is probably a bit of a basic question. But I was shown recently how Juno's supplication at Aen 1.65-75 is , generically speaking, in the form of a standard prayer (is euktikon the right term, or kleticon? Euktikon: kletikon is the 'Come hither' type of prayer. ), but that certain topoi are omitted. Thus Juno does not invoke her past services to Aeolus as a good reason for his support, but Aeolus himself then mentions them anyway in his reply. This sophistication highlights the rather paradoxical supplication going on, where Juno is really superior to Aeolus. Can anyone comment on anything more complex in it, or on other sophistications. I'd also be interested in finding some good examples of fairly 'normal' prayers of the same genre in earlier Greek poetry to compare it with. Try Chryses' prayer to Apollo after his rebuff by Agamemnon, _Iliad_ 1. 36-42, which likewise sets in motion the action of the epic, and does contain the reference to past service. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Re: Appendix
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Geyssen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes While we're on the topic--Is there anything close to an accepted date for the Culex or Ciris? Culex: first century AD, before Lucan, if you believe Sootiness' report that he 'initia sua cum Vergilio conparans ausus sit dicere: 'et quantum mihi restat ad Culicem?'; otherwise before Statius, _Silvae_ 2. 7. 74 'ante annos Culicis Maroniani'. Either way, you have to allow the forgery time to be believed in; but not much time, since people wanted to believe in it (see Fraenkel, JRS 1952). Ciris: some people say first century AD, some second. The 'back to Catullus' feel about it might support the retro-chic of the second. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Re: Appendix
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Leofranc Holford- Strevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Geyssen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes While we're on the topic--Is there anything close to an accepted date for the Culex or Ciris? Culex: first century AD, before Lucan, if you believe Sootiness' Oops: rogue spellchecker for Suetonius; I thought I'd turned it off--and now I see it doesn't even recognize 'spellchecker'! Sorry Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Aen. IX 371
In reply to Caroline Butler: Where are Euryalus and Nisus? We have just read 'excedunt castris et tuta capessunt'; then comes the Latin mission, which M. Valerius Probus in the first century, followed by C. Sulpicius Apollinaris in the second, found to contradict 7. 600. So we needn't feel too badly if we don't make sense of it all; but are we meant to? Did Vergil intend to describe a realistic war and fail, or simply to give a poetic impression of war? Even in Homer, it is easier to appreciate the portrayal of the martial spirit (brutality and all) than the technical exactness of the fighting; the only bit that convinces me is the Doloneia, notoriously an addition to the story and composed by one who was not quite master of the formulaic language, but who (I think) knew whereof he spoke. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: B.6,62-3: bitter bark
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neven Jovanovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Isn't the point that the bark exudes the musk, i.e. the amber? (Cf. Ovid,_Met._ 2. 344-66 for a fuller account.) You see, this is the point where my _hubris_ started; I have seen the _muscus_ = musk note in the Lewis-Short; but OLD is silent on this point, and Vergil in other places writes _muscus_ and _muscosus_ always meaning _moss_. I have checked, and my beautiful idea had to evaporate. Oops: of course you're right: 'the moss that belongs to (i.e. grows on) the bitter bark', i.e. the bitter bark with its moss. Clausen, Williams. and Coleman see no difficulty, perhaps for the same reason that Nelson saw no signal. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: B.6,62-3: bitter bark
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Neven Jovanovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Dear Mantovanae and Mantovani, Reading Eclogue 6 I have come to the vv. 62-3: _tum Phaethontiadas musco circumdat amarae corticis atque solo proceras erigit alnos_. Why should the bark be bitter? The commentaries I consulted (old Latin one based on Heyne, and German Tusculum edition, and Klingner) raise no question about it. Servius ad loc. notes on _amarae_: _et est epitheton naturale_. On the contrary, my students suggested that _amarae_ can be taken metaphorically -- standing for the pain which torments the Phaethon's sisters. What do the other commentators say (unfortunately, I have no Clausen at hand)? What seems to me even more important -- how would you read these verses? Not only is this bark bitter, but so is the celery in l. 68 (apio . . . amaro): Unde epitheton?, asked the admirable La Cerda, or so Clausen reports; for his part Clausen refers to line 47: a uirgo infelix, quae te dementia cepit, which as Deutero-Servius points out alludes to 'Caluus in Io: a uirgo infelix, herbis pasceris amaris and suggests that Vergil had _amarus_ on the brain: 'Twice below, as if thinking of herbis pasceris amaris, V. uses the adjective _amarus_ (62, 68)'. Calvus' line was also imitated by Ovid, _Met._ 1. 632-4, where once more the subject is Io, frondibus arboreis et amara pascitur herba, proque toro terrae non semper gramen habenti incubat infelix. _Musco_ also bothers me; the picture seems somewhat clumsy, not substantial enough. Isn't the point that the bark exudes the musk, i.e. the amber? (Cf. Ovid,_Met._ 2. 344-66 for a fuller account.) Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: de rosis nascentibus
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Miryam Cesar Libran Moreno [EMAIL PROTECTED] write: Could you please inform me whether De Rosis Nascentibus is considered to be a part of the Appendix Vergiliana? I always thought that Decimus Magnus Ausonius wrote it, but to my surprise I found it listed in the Appendix in a Latin Literature Textbook. The textbook was right, but you may well be right too. The poem is transmitted with other poems of the Appendix Vergiliana; it was claimed for Ausonius in the sixteenth century by Hieronymus Aleander and (on MS evidence now lost) by M. Accursius. No-one imagines it is by Vergil; the attribution to Ausonius is contested, but favoured by R. P. H. Green in his edition, _The Works of Ausonius_ (Oxford, 1990), 669. Some of the MSS containing it also contain the poems _De institutione viri boni_ and _De est et non_, which are undoubtedly Ausonian (they are XIV. 20 and 21 in Green, but otherwise allocated by other editors). Nevertheless, all three are also edited in the OCT of the Appendix Vergiliana (Oxford, 1966); in the preface, signed by Wendell Clausen (who edited all three) ahead of his colleagues, it is stated: Poematia quoque 'Ausoniana' Vergilio olim perperam attributa Appendici appendiculae loco subiungere placuit. Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: furor
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dan Knauss [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Is it likely that there was a common Greek and Roman sentiment toward the barbarian tribes that classed them as what a civilized person might become if overcome by extreme passions like love and hate? Certainly: Greeks (and Romans when they can no longer be called barbarians) are distinguished, in their own eyes at least, by the ability to givern themselves by reason. A Gaul or Thracian, say, may have more brute courage than a Greek or Roman, because he will charge into battle where a civilized person would have thought better of it; but if the charge doesn't carry all before it he is disheartened and gives up where a Greek or a Roman would have stuck to it. That is to say, he cannot rationally judge which dangers are to be risked and which avoided, which hardships are to be endured and which refused. -- Leofranc Holford-Strevens --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: beyond the limits of nature?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
From: Ramon Sevilla [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:31:17 -0600
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit . Aeneid I, 203.
I marvel how Virgil in Aeneid I, 195 ss. recalls the hardships he and his
comrades have formerly endured. He doesnt mention anything successful or
prosperous. However sharing wine with his company Aeneas speaks hopefully
looking forward to a future prosperity which will be the effect of a
painful parturition. Furthermore Aeneas refers to a deity sine nomine,
an unknown god: Dabit deus his quoque finem.
Is it appropriate to find out here something akin to a biblical Anamnesis?
David R. Slavitt writes about the fourth book of the Georgics, that it is a
book already nudging at the limits of nature... he (Virgil) is
deliberately venturing beyond the borders of ordinary experience and into
the realm of the supernatural. Or, putting it another way, he is exploring
the confines of reason and stepping, or leaping, beyond and into the
territory of faith. D.R. Slavitt, Virgil, Yale University Press,1991.
I wonder what does Virgil mean when he mentions an unnamed god as in
Georgics I {immo 4] 221: deum namque ire per omnia. Or in Aeneid I,
199: dabit
deus his quoque finem.
Unspecified _deus_ in Vergil may mean, at any given point, either the
all-pervasive god of the Stoics and other philosophers or the indefinite
_daimon_ ('some god, but who knows which one?') of Homer.
--
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
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Re: VIRGIL: Seeking translation---one sentence.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], George Heidekat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Reply to: Seeking translation---one sentence. Hi (Heus!) My Franklin Day Planner quote for the day is, They can because they think they can. Virgil. Can anyone confirm that this is a real quotation, tell me where it occurs, and provide the Latin? Thanks! Possunt quia posse videntur: _Aeneid_ 5. 231, from the boatrace episode. -- Leofranc Holford-Strevens --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Lost poem
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gregory Hays [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I don't know the poem your referring to. But I thought you might find a poem called the Pervigilium Veneris which is made up of half-lines and lines from Vergil but on a rather more humorous topic interesting. Unfortunately, I cannot remember who it is by. Anyone? Adrian Pay I think you may be confusing the Pervigilium Veneris, an anonymous original poem (perhaps by the late 3d/early 4th c. poet Tiberianus) with works such as the _Medea_ of Hosidius Geta or the biblical cento of Proba, which *are* made up of half-lines and lines from Vergil. None of these are particularly humorous, however, Apart from Ausonius' _cento nuptialis_... -- Leofranc Holford-Strevens --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: deaths in the Aeneid
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes From: Adrian Pay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:53:19 - I find Mezentius a very interesting character in the Aeneid. One bit that's particularly striking is lines 10.689f At Iovis interea monitis Mezentius ardens / succedit pugnae Teucrosque invadit ovantis (But meanwhile on the *instructions of Jupiter* burning Mezentius Now have a look at the scene where Jupiter replies to the complaints of Juno and Venus at the beginning of book 10. Jupiter says at 104ff that he will be completely impartial in the coming fight - Tros Rutulusne fuat, nullo discrimine habebo ... rex Iuppiter omnibus idem and he swears this by the Styx. The way I read it, bits like this undermine the superficial picture of a moral Jupiter; the deaths of both Trojans and Rutulans are part of the plan of Jupiter, just like the countless deaths of Greeks are part of Zeus' plan in the Iliad (1.1 and elsewhere). Have a look also at the bit where Jupiter holds up the scales to decide whether Turnus or Aeneas is to die (12.725ff). And its by *Jupiter's* th rone that the Dirae sit (one of whom is sent against Turnus) not, as one might expect, Juno's. I think you're quite right that this is intimately connected with Vergil's Augustan agenda. Generally speaking there is a balance in the Aeneid between patriotic pro-Augustan stuff (which I find a genuine and integral part of the poem) and a deep exploration of the negative side of imperialism. Very well put. The death of Turnus is an excellent example - it is the crowning moment of the Aeneid and marks both Aeneas' success and the founding of Rome, but the tone is disquieting. Homer's Iliad finished with the incredible scene of reconciliation between Achilles and Priam - the old Trojan king eats with the Greek who killed and mutilated his best son and I think Vergil wanted his readers to bear in mind how that epic finished. Remember as well Anchises words to Aeneas at 6.852f Remember, Roman, to rule over peoples with 'imperium' (these will be your arts), and to add civilized values to peace, *to spare those who are thrown down* [parcere subiectis] and war against those who are arrogant. And Aeneas almost does have mercy on Turnus (lines 12.938ff). But it is noticing Pallas' belt which incenses him (saevi...doloris; furiis accensus et ira terribilis; fervidus - words with great resonance through the Aeneid). I hope some of that will be thought provoking. Adrian Pay Indeed. The problem I have with much Vergilian comment is the demand that gods, and men, live up to Platonic (sometimes even Christian) expectations; as if what was good enough for Homeric gods and heroes weren't good enough for Vergil. It is true that V. could not wipe away 700 years (shall we say) of intellectual and religious development; but he was also an epic poet, who was entitled to the Homeric conceptions whenever they served his turn. A furher complication is that he was a Roman with Roman expectations of how men and gods should behave, above all in relation to the cause of Rome. Here indeed is one of the complexities of the Dido episode: _pius Aeneas_ behaves like a true Roman, but the gods are not the Roman collective of _di inmortales_, but individual Homeric deities with their own agendas. (The contrast is grossly oversimplified, but I think there is something in it.) Leofranc Holford-Strevens *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's religion or lack of
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephanie Spaulding [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes in reply to the message From: Shannon Merlino [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:09:22 EDT To Whom it may Concern: Recently in my Latin class I was involved in a discussion of Virgil's 'piety' or lack thereof. I was told that despite his traditional use of the divine/supernatural in his works, Virgil, much like many of the patricians of the time, [V. of course was neither a patrician nor a _nobilis_. L.A.H.-S.] was not very religious at all and hardly believed in the Roman gods at all-a near-atheist, if you will. I disagreed- am I correct in this? Surely Virgil, had he not been a devout Roman or even one with a marginal belief of the gods, would not have stuck to tradition and composed an epic glorifying Aeneas among others for their purely terrestrial endeavours? Please let me know what you think- Shannon Merlino Shannon, you're going to have to be very careful when you use the English word 'piety' in this context because the Roman concept of 'pietas' is not the same as the related word (which has picked up many connotations and is often coupled with 'religious' or moral piety). The Roman concept of pietas has much to do with the carrying out of certain obligations to family, country, and also religion. This is deffinately a crucial issue for Aeneas throughout the Aeneid. Aeneas is 'pious Aeneas' not because he closes his eyes when he prays, but because he fulfills his duties to family, country, and with ritual observance of religion. One must also remember that believing in religion and carrying out the duties and obligations may be totally separate things, an oversight many people make. That is a very good point. Nowadays in most Western countries if you don't believe you don't conform because there's no social pressure (except on politicians?); it used to be otherwise. There was a time when at an Oxford college, even after the abolition of religious tests fir entrance, you were expected to attend chapel on Sunday unless you positively belonged to another denomination or another faith; naturally Roman Catholics, Jews, and other non-Anglicans would attend their own services, but if you didn't come into those categories it was your business what you believed, but not to take part was letting the side down. Ancient Romans would have taken such an attitude for granted. As for Vergil, the tradition that he flirted with the Epicureans, who believed in gods who took no interest in human affairs (but who, if they followed their founder, were most diligent in public conformity) seems now to have been confirmed by a contemporary papyrus; but whatever he may or may not have supposed to be true at any one stage in his life (and however deeply he may or may not have been affected by the religious revival under Augustus), in his poetry he adopted poetically attractive rather than philosophically rigorous standpoints (as commentators on Silenus' song and Anchises' speech have long since recognized). After all, Milton adopted the Ptolemaic cosmogony for _Paradise Lost_, even though in civilian life he knew it had been superseded, and even though it was being upheld by the hated Papacy. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: wirgil and augustus/result of aeneid
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] edu, RANDI C ELDEVIK [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Misinformation like this should not go uncorrected on Mantovano, but I can't remain any longer at my desk right now. Would someone like to explain what is wrong here? Thanks, Randi Eldevik On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, KIMBERLY ANN SANTORA wrote: All I know is that augustus asked him to write it, and I know from translating it last yr that there are certain passages in it alluding to and praising him. I do not know them offhand, could look though if u need it. I dont know about political sit. at that time, but had affect effect? on later medieval life: most books from virgils time burnt b/cause of pagan beliefs in them, No they were not. A lot of texts weren't copied because they no longer seemed relevant, but that is quite different. There are odd cases of censorship by scribes, such as a branch of the Martial tradition that suppresses heterosexual but not homosexual obscenity; there are also places where Christian words slip into a scribe's mind in place of the one he should have copied, but that is a matter of words, not of ideas. Proof: in Manilius 1. 742 laudatique cadit post paulum gratia ponti and the beauty of the sea, which has (just) been praised, soon falls away the words 'paulum' and 'gratia' caused a scribe to write 'christi' instead of 'ponti'; had he been attempting to say (like modern trendies) that the grace of Christ falls away after Paul, i.e. that Paul denatured Christianity, he would have been playing with fire. Perhaps other listmembers would like to contribute scribal Christianism they have encountered (I have some others). I do know an old tale that a Patriarch of Constantinople (I think) destroyed the poetry of Sappho as immoral, but it is no longer taken seriously; it is certainly true that in the fifteenth century Gennadios Scholarios read, admired, and burnt an allegedly neo-pagan work by his late friend George Gemistos Plethon. but not aeneid b/c many thought there was a paragraph prophesizing christ No: it was the fourth eclogue of the Bucolics. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: alternatives to Galinsky, Augustan Culture
In message Pine.GSO.3.95-960729.980926184149.23630D- [EMAIL PROTECTED], M W Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I don't think that I need to accuse RSyme of the modern version of Medism, since I don't think that I need to accept the 'Antony=Caesar' formula. I did begin by saying that RS regards all dictatorship as a menace. RS tells us that on the 17th March 44 Antony restored a rough and ready form of constitutional government, something which the foolishly ideological Cicero was to help subvert. Is there is a contemporary analogy, and hence a message directed by RS patriae suae? If there is, would it not be the message that, if we encountered any force in Germany prepared to restore the constitution after the (quite likely violent) death of the dictator, we should not be stopped by ideology from doing business with it? That would have been more relevant in 1938, when there were possibilities, had we been firmer at Munich, of encompassing a military coup against Hitler; but among our motives for spurning the German opposition was the fact that Hitler's enemies were demanding, by way of reward for being decent people, the same concessions to Germany as he was. I don't know how far we ought, biographically, to be pushing these analogies, though I believe that Syme's thoughts on the New Order were coloured by observing mass rallies led by the Duce. In any case, what would _patriae_ in his case? Not the United Kingdom, but either the British Empire as a whole or else New Zealand. But as for V on kingship: surely there is no venom in V's usage of 'rex' or (just as interestingly) 'tyrannus' (I 544, VII 266). Indeed: one thinks of those neutral uses of _tyrannos_ in tragedy: Ennius' _O Tite tute Tati tibi tanta tyranne tulisti is hostile. I think V portrays Augustus as one who holds office by a means in which divine, rather than merely human, election (of which heredity is one indication) play a part. This sort of office is contrary to Libertas as defended by Cato. I don't see any Claudian-style synthesis of monarchy and Libertas. Brutus' action 'pulchra pro libertate' of VI 821 is action against monarchy and in the service of an attractive ideal. But it caused the Republic to be born and to live its life amid family strife, a theme of the next passage. That is a very fair account; the Republic and _libertas_ were fine things, but . . . After the First World War, a German general (I think) was heard to define himself thus: 'Ich bin Vernunftrepublikaner aber Herzensmonarchist.' Many a Roman of Augustus' time might be called 'Herzensrepublikaner aber Vernunftmonarchist'--that way round, to allow the last word to reason. Leofranc *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Silver Age
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], JAMES C Wiersum [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Just a note to say how much I appreciated the comment on the Silver Age. It was very insightful. How would Tennyson, who has been called virgilian, fit in though? Or, is this why Tennyson has always been a bit suspect by the intelligentsia from the time of the Victorian era? He was more Latin than Greek in his poetry. If a Silver poet was not a flashy rhetorician, he could always be brought down by the other barrel as a servile imitator; Silius Italicus was the obvious candidate (the younger Pliny having led the way), but Statius was, quite unjustly, tarred with this brush by persons who simply couldn't see the wit (in its eighteenth-century sense of ingenuity). Anyone who found Tennyson suspect would take this course. Although the British did not suffer from the anti-Latin disease as the Germans did, it should be remembered that Gladstone, in his writings on Homer, exalted him above Vergil as one-sidedly as Julius Caesar Scaliger had done the opposite. Those writings were cited as proof of English philological incapacity by a disappointed candidate for a German classical chair who loathed Gladstone politically but had a distinctly Romantic view of the ancient Greeks, namely Karl Marx. L.A.H.-S. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: Thebaid (was: VIRGIL: Mystery)
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I say, could anybody explain that statement at more length? Explain what
Silver Literature means, (although I can, of course, guess) and explain
why the Victorian disapproval. It sounds interesting.
Robin Kornman
By Silver literature I mean literature of the Silver Age, roughly from
Ovid and the elder Seneca to Juvenal. The nineteenth century--which in
English literature was in full reaction against the neo-classical
eighteenth--regarded it as derivative, showy, and shallow, all polish
and no substance; it was at this point that 'rhetorical' came to be a
bad word. Macaulay's comment that reading Seneca was like dining on
anchovy sauce is the most memorable and perhaps also perceptive
statement of that view. ('Annaee, quis finis?', as Fronto was to
apostrophize a different Annaeus; and the epigrams of Oscar Wilde tend
to provoke a similar reaction when taken in excess.) The Victorians also
disliked the cynicism and pessimism of the Julio-Claudian age scarc1ely
less than the 'immorality' of Ovid or the more scabrous parts of Martial
and Juvenal.
A simplistic summary? Perhaps, but a fair picture of the stuff I was
served by histories of Latin literature and standard reference-books at
school. In Germany the period was also despised for much the same
reasons, but all Latin literature, even Vergil and Horace, was found
wanting in the eyes of Romantic _Deutschhellenentum_, firm in the
conviction that the Greeks had been the perfection of the ancient world,
and were now spiritually reborn as Germans.
Leofranc Holford-Strevens
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Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone
Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter?
OX2 6EJ
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email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)
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Re: Thebaid (was: VIRGIL: Mystery)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Geyssen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it a good read (in any language)? The Thebaid is a great read. But, like everything else, it suffers in translation, although Melville's is good (there's a review of it in BMCR). The main problem is that most expect it to be the Aeneid and are disappointed/frustrated/bent out of shape when they realize it's not; consequently it is frequently derided. It is, in fact, *explicitly* not another Aeneid and, i think, Statius sets himself (much the way Ovid did) to 'correcting' the Aeneid. It presents a very different view of the gods and any grand design, of civil war, of hero and of closure. If you do read the Thebaid, it's important to keep the Aeneid not far from the front of your mind. Many of these considerations were brought up at an excellent Statius Workshop organized by Kathyleen Coleman at Trinity College Dublin last March. It has taken Statius longer than say Lucan to emerge from Victorian disapproval of Silver literature, but he seems to have done now. LAH-S *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: nemo Hercule, nemo
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Laura [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes For example you can find this expression in very late Not late but early; it is Ennodius who is very late. latin poets, as Ennius Malo hercle magno suo convivat sine modo In Saturarum lib. I, 1 (I took the line from Vahlen's second edition of Ennius works). See now Edward Courtney, _The Fragmentary Latin Poets_ (Oxford, 1993), where this verse is Ennius fr. 7. But probably it wasn't used very much in arcaic literature, because I found this expression only in this line. There is NO other example in any of the fragments of the Annales or of the Scenica. It is beneath the dignity of epic as Romans understood it (Sander Goldberg's contrast between Roman and Greek attitudes in this respect has already been cited on this list), and likewise of tragedy, but it is easily found in Plautus, Terence, and the comic and mimic fragments in vol. ii of Ribbeck, which is just what you would expect a colloquial word. Likewise one may look for it in satire; after all it is Persius whose use of it sparked off this discussion--not Vergil, who never uses it. I will take a look on Naevius fragments, probably there are more examples There are two in the comic fragments (117 and 129 Ribbeck). *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: nemo Hercule, nemo
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes That's right: the author I cited (Lipsius) was an ardent Dutch Protestant, so I don't think he was really swearing by Hercules. I would translate it as by gum or something generic like that. But the contracted form is old: see Lewis Short, Hercules, 1b. When a Roman said 'hercle' he was swearing by Hercules, and I mean 'he', for women didn't say it; conversely mean didn't say 'ecastor', 'by Castor', though both sexes said 'edepol', by Pollux: see Aulus Gellius 11. 6. Similarly it is Greek men who say Herakleis. However, 'hercle' found its way into literary prose as _ne Dia_, by Zeus, did in Greek, and was used as a classicism at the Renaissance. (That is nothing to the letter in the British Library from Vida to Bembo congratulating him on being made a cardinal, which thanks 'the immortal gods'. It is Additional MS 21520, folio 19; the MS is a collection of autographs, including a Michelangelo drawing.) Leofranc Holford-Strevens *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: spelling: Virgil or Vergil?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes As I understand it, 'Virgil' (or French 'Virgile', etc.) is the traditional spelling in modern languages. 'Vergil' (despite Heinze) is normal in modern German. 'Vergil' is preferred by some (a minority) on the ground that in Latin the name is 'Vergilius', 'Vergilii', etc.. The 'Virgil' spelling perpetuates a medieval custom, rather like the wearing of academic gowns and hoods. We write and speak of 'Horace', 'Cicero' (pron. 'Sisero'), 'Martial' (pron. 'Marshall'), etc.; why not also 'Virgil'? Because that sdpelling has given generation of schoolboys the notion that he was a girlie drip? Or because it suggests the writer is an old- style man of letters who can't be bothered with dull facts? Of course that's fighting talk, just like 'the spelling Vergil marks the fussy pedant' on the other side; one might also, more coolly, ask: precisely because it *doesn't* affect the English pronunciation, what is the point of not changing? Perhaps those list-members who are native English-speakers might be polled on their preference: my hunch is that e is more common in the USA than in Britain, among academics than non-academics, among classicists than non-classicists, and among younger than older writers; these and any other categories might be tested, insofar as they are not thought to intrude on privacy *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Augustus and Vergil
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael Ehrman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I'm am working on a research paper that hopes to arrive at some conclusion that relates Augustus patronage of Vergil to the Aeneid. My feeling is that one of the purposes of writing the Aeneid was so that the Romans could feel good about themselves, and also that Augustus would be able to take and maintain control of the empire. I see the Aeneid as being a powerful tool of Augustine Propoganda. My paper also seeks to relate other works of literature in more modern times to political issues (ex: _Uncle_Tom's_Cabin_ and the issue of slavery). Any comments, suggestions, of direction towards research materials would be GREATLY appreciated. If you mean that Vergil was, in some sense, commissioned to write the _Aeneid_, you will have to engage with Peter White, _Promised Verse: Poets in the Society of Augustan Rome' (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1993), which denies this widely accepted model of Augustan literary life. Of course, there is nothing to stop Vergil writing 'Augustan propaganda' on his own initiative; the notion that poets are natural oppositionists and support the government only when they have been bought is sheer bosh. List-members will know I have made no secret of my own view that Vergil (a) was sincerely pro-Augustus and (b) had no earthly reason not to be; so of course I am sympathetic to your account of his purpose, but I emphasize the word 'his'. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Siro's Epicurean Garden
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Silvio Pantano [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I am having difficulty finding any substantial information on Siro and the Epicurean circle of philosophers that formed his famous Garden. I would appreciate any book or article information on this subject. thank you, Silvio Pan This whole complex is something of a growth area at the moment with all the work that is being done on Philodemus and the Herculaneum Papyri. See Marcello Gigante, 'I frammenti di Sirone', _Paideia_, 45 (1990), 175-98 and also David Sider, _The Epigrams of Philodemos_ [note spelling] (New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997), 15-24. For a more general survey (though Siro is hardly mentioned): Marcello Gigante, _Philodemus in Italy: The Books from Herculaneum_, trans. Dirk Obbink (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 1995). The Italian edition, _Filodemo in Italia_ (Florence: Felice Le Monnier, 1990), was itself a revision of _La Bibliothe`que de Philode`me et l''epicurisme romain' (Collection d''etudes anciennes, 56; Paris: Socie'te' d''Edition Les Belles Lettres, 1987); by comparing them you will find certain changes of opinion. It has to be said that there is a considerable degree of scholarly disagreement about these questions: at the Amsterdam Lucretius conference in 1966 I heard Kurt Kleve (the man who discovered fragments of Ennius and Lucretius at Herculaneum) stating a maximalist view of Lucretius' involvement with the Epicurean circle and Tiziano Dorandi a minimalist one. Philodemus _On Flattery_ (P.Herc.Paris 2) addressed 'Plotius and Varius and Vergil and Quintilius'; this links Vergil with the Herculaneum school, which in turn is linked with Siro by P.Herc.312, _c_.50 BC: 'he was minded to return with us to Naples to the very dear Siro and the way of life he taught/practised there [ten kat' auton ekei diaitan, 'the according to him there way of life'] and to engage in philosophical discourse and join with others in studying at Herculaneum'. Who 'he' and 'we' might be is, alas, uncertain; but it no longer seems unreasonably credulous to accept the link, despite the very proper warning of Horsfall, _Companion_, 7-8; whether that means formal study is another question, let alone adherence to the doctrine, though I see Vergil as studying many things, assimilating much, but always blending and compounding it into something of his own. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body.
