Re: [Marxism] Richard Becker video on Libya

[MARGARET WYLES]

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On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 9:28 PM,  wrote:

> ==
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> ==
>
> Yes, there is some interesting stuff. But he starts by saying, "With regard
> to
> Libya, what's happening in Libya today..." and then he spends most of the
> talk
> discussing how great Gaddafi *was*, before "bourgeois forces got stronger"
> and
> Gaddafi moved away from support for the national liberation movements. What
> he
> says is really interesting, although he himself admits that his knowledge
> of
> Libya is limited.
>

The Feb. 17th  Movement has it's own website and forum where you can obtain
information directly from the rebels.  I thought the photo gallery was
particularly illuminating.though it's heart breaking to see the
devastation and loss of life.

http://www.libyafeb17.com/

>
> Of course, the background history is really important, but what's glaringly
> absent is any attempt to *actually* talk about what's happening in Libya
> today.
> There is nothing about whether or not the oposition might have genuine
> cause for
> rebellion, nothing about who the opposition are, just an exposition on
> "Libyan
> exceptionalism". That aspect of the talk, and those key omissions, were a
> disappointment.
>
> I really think these people need to stop covering for Gaddafi. Then their
> anti-Western intervention calls would carry far more weight. I mean does he
> really believe that Al Qaeda have sneaked into pantries and cafe store
> rooms
> right throughout Libya in the night to spike everyone's coffee with
> halucinogenic drugs???
> Cheers,
> John
>
> 
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>

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[Marxism] New Marxist blog by Fred Goldstein

[jay rothermel]

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http://www.lowwagecapitalism.com/blog/
Fred Goldstein is the author of "Low Wage Capitalism". Fred also writes on
international and domestic affairs from a Marxist perspective and is a
contributing editor to Workers World newspaper.

-- 
Comradely,

Jay Rothermel

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[Marxism] Chavez gambles on Gaddafi diplomacy

[dave x]

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http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/03/201134121327738678.html

Chavez gambles on Gaddafi diplomacy
Hugo Chavez could yet emerge as a respected peacemaker over Libya, or
find himself on "the wrong side of history".
  Simon Hooper

fta:

'Honourable way out'

But, Salas warned, the only scenario in which Chavez could emerge in a
positive light would be in "facilitating the process in which Gaddafi
leaves the country".

"If he could provide an honourable way out for Gaddafi, in some ways
that would reduce the tensions and provide for some transition. He
could actually come out as a well-regarded mediator with international
credibility - or he could end up on the wrong side of history."

David Lehmann, Director of the Centre of Latin American Studies at
Cambridge, also suggested that Chavez could play a useful role between
Gaddafi and other Arab states because of their close ties through
OPEC, the global oil monopoly.

"Gaddafi has been expelled from the Arab League and the Saudis despise
him. Most of his friendships are to the south, so you could imagine
the Arab League might want somebody to come in and mediate," Lehmann
said.
Some see a contradiction between Chavez's "21st-century socialism" and
Venezuela's partnerships with countries such as Iran [EPA]

But Kozloff said Venezuela's relationship with Libya highlighted
bigger issues regarding Chavez's foreign policy, which has seen the
South American country forge high-profile strategic partnerships with
states such as Iran, Russia and Belarus in an effort to build a
"multipolar" alternative to Western supremacy.

Some see a contradiction between human rights abuses in those regimes
and Chavez’s "21st century socialism" ideology.

"While it's understandable that you’d want to build this multipolar
world against western imperialism, if that multipolarism consists of
Russia, China, and a bunch of authoritarian regimes then what use is a
multipolar world?" Kozloff said.

Chavez also risked finding himself isolated from the revolts sweeping
the Arab world, with possible implications for his leftist credentials
at home and abroad.

"Rather than expressing solidarity with this anachronistic generation,
he should be allied with the modern day movement in Egypt and
elsewhere," said Kozloff. "If he becomes involved in mediation [on
behalf of Gaddafi], then some in South America may not view that as
particularly progressive."

Gregory Wilpert, co-founder of the Venezuela Analysis website, said
there had been a "vigorous debate" within the pro-Chavez camp in
Venezuela over the regime's ties to Libya.

"One segment is defending Gaddafi as a fellow revolutionary and
another camp is condemning him and is urging the government to do so
too," said Wilpert.

"Opponents of Chavez are of course trying to take maximum advantage of
Chavez’s ties to Gaddafi by displaying this as proof that Chavez
himself is an autocrat."


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Re: [Marxism] Richard Becker video on Libya

[johnedmundson]

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Pat wrote:

> Richard Becker is knowledgeable about the Middle East and makes some
> interesting remarks about the current situation

Yes, there is some interesting stuff. But he starts by saying, "With regard to
Libya, what's happening in Libya today..." and then he spends most of the talk
discussing how great Gaddafi *was*, before "bourgeois forces got stronger" and
Gaddafi moved away from support for the national liberation movements. What he
says is really interesting, although he himself admits that his knowledge of
Libya is limited.

Of course, the background history is really important, but what's glaringly
absent is any attempt to *actually* talk about what's happening in Libya today.
There is nothing about whether or not the oposition might have genuine cause for
rebellion, nothing about who the opposition are, just an exposition on "Libyan
exceptionalism". That aspect of the talk, and those key omissions, were a
disappointment.

I really think these people need to stop covering for Gaddafi. Then their
anti-Western intervention calls would carry far more weight. I mean does he
really believe that Al Qaeda have sneaked into pantries and cafe store rooms
right throughout Libya in the night to spike everyone's coffee with
halucinogenic drugs???
Cheers,
John


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[Marxism] Richard Becker video on Libya

[pat costello]

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Richard Becker is knowledgeable about the Middle East and makes some
interesting remarks about the current situation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOrGb8TTSdA


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[Marxism] LaBotz - The New American Workers Movement at the Crossroads

[dave x]

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http://www.solidarity-us.org/current/node/3208

The New American Workers Movement at the Crossroads

By Dan La Botz

The new American workers movement, which has developed so rapidly in
the last couple of months in the struggle against rightwing
legislative proposals to abolish public employee unions, suddenly
finds itself at a crossroads. Madison, Wisconsin, where rank-and-file
workers, community members, and social movement activists converged to
create the new movement, remains the center of the struggle. In Ohio,
which faces similar legislation, unions have also gone into motion,
while working people around the country have been drawn into the
fight.

In both states, things are coming to a head. In Wisconsin the courts
have ordered the capitol building closed and the governor is
threatening layoffs to begin next week. In both Wisconsin and Ohio the
legislators are threatening to push the bills through one way or
another. And now, in the fight to win, the movement has come to a fork
in the road.

Two different tendencies in the labor movement point in two quite
different directions. The top leaders of the AFL-CIO and Change to Win
unions like SEIU have thrown their weight into the struggle in the
only way that they know how. Following the model they use in political
campaigns, they have reached out to established organizations to build
coalitions. They have sent organizers into take charge and to reach
out to communities. Their goal is to rebuild their institutional power
and their relationship with the Democratic Party, hoping to turn the
upsurge in support for public employees into a political victory.

The Union Leaders’ Approach

In both Wisconsin and Ohio, while not publicly giving up the fight to
defeat the anti-union legislation, the top union officials quietly
suggest that the bills cannot be stopped in the legislatures. So the
unions in Wisconsin and Ohio indicate they will be turning
respectively to efforts at recall and referendum. With their usual
orientation toward political solutions, the unions’ Central Labor
Councils in Ohio return to their reliance on the Democratic Party and
prepare for the contest in the coming elections.

The unions’ top leaders at the national level shy away from mobilizing
the social and economic power of the unions to win this thing, turning
instead to their allies in the Democratic Party. It is not that the
union officials don’t want to win in Wisconsin and Ohio, but their
notions about how to win and what winning means represent a particular
conception of the role of the labor movement. For the AFL-CIO and
other major unions, winning means preserving, through political
influence, the existing model of collective bargaining—even though we
know that under the existing model unions have been losing for the
last 40 years.

The Workers Power Tendency

There is, however, another tendency in the new workers’ movement which
presents a different alternative. This alternative, which is not so
easy to name but which might be called workers’ power tendency, is
made up of those rank-and-file workers and their union stewards and
local officials, together with the community groups and social
movement activists who have rallied to the cause. This group includes
the teachers who called in sick and produced a virtual shutdown of the
schools in Madison and other parts of Wisconsin. It is made up of
firemen, policemen and other public employees who have spent every
available minute surrounding the capitol in spirited demonstrations.
And it includes the union, community and student activists who have
occupied the capitol building and made it the center and the symbol of
the new workers’ movement.

This tendency has demonstrated—even it is has not yet worked out an
elaborate position on paper or issued some sort of manifesto—that for
them winning means using workers’ power to stop the anti-union bills
and to stop concessions offered up by some of the union leaders. Some
of these workers have been holding on to the capitol risking arrest.
Others are considering some form of direct action or civil
disobedience.

These are the workers and their supporters who taken seriously the
call for a general strike issued by the South Central Federation of
Labor. Taking seriously the idea of a general strike of Wisconsin
workers doesn’t mean jumping into it. A general strike issue from the
ranks isn’t simply called—as some activists have been trying to do. A
general strike is mulled over, it is prepared through conversation,
discussion and debate. It is organized. And finally (but soon), when
the moment is right, it is begun when one crucial group of workers has
the courage to make the first move drawing others into the process.

How We Win Makes all the Difference

One might argue that

[Marxism] Richard Walker on the crisis in California

[dave x]

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Richard Walker - THE GOLDEN STATE ADRIFT
http://newleftreview.org/?page=article&view=2868

kudos to Kasama:
California: From Golden State to Failed State?, Pt. 1
http://kasamaproject.org/2011/03/03/california-from-golden-state-to-failed-state-pt-1/

Information on the recent anti-cuts protest and occupation of Wheeler
hall at Berkeley:
http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_1753?nclick_check=1
http://sfist.com/2011/03/04/scenes_from_wheeler_hall_protest_at.php?gallery0Pic=1#gallery


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[Marxism] Bill McKibben - My Life as a Communist

[dave x]

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heh.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/28/AR2011022803518.html

My life as a communist

By Bill McKibben
Tuesday, March 1, 2011

My life as a communist actually began without me knowing it, on Friday
evening, when Glenn Beck  spent his program explaining about a
"communistic" conspiracy that included 10 groups in America. One was
350.org, a global campaign to fight climate change that I helped found
three years ago. He even put our logo up on his whiteboard - and next
to it a hammer and sickle.

Since I don't actually watch Mr. Beck, I didn't know about it until
e-mails began to arrive, informing me that indeed I was a communist.
My first reaction was: I'm not a communist. I'm a Methodist.

But then I reconsidered.



I turned 50 last fall - that's half a century not understanding who I
really was. There's something liberating about finding out. After all,
it was Marx who said that above 350 parts per million carbon dioxide
in the atmosphere, we can't have a planet "similar to that on which
civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted." No,
wait, those were NASA scientists. The same people who faked the moon
landing. This is a complicated world; I'm going back to the baseball
game.


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Re: [Marxism] Re. Libya and list discussion

[Matt]

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Walter was not unsubscribed because of his views. If that were the case
then Fred and Nestor would have been kicked along with Karadjis over
Serbia and any number of comrades who disagree with Louis on anything.
Walter decided to pepper every cross post with the same strawman barbs
that lead to his original unsubbing. If he didn't get the point then so
be it.


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[Marxism] From Latin America to the Arab World – What’s going on in Libya?

[dave x]

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Interesting article:

>From Latin America to the Arab World – What’s going on in Libya?
Send to friend Printer-friendly version

By Santiago Alba Rico & Alma Allende - Rebelion, March 3rd 2011

full: http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/6035


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[Marxism] 360-degree views of WI Capitol protests

[Juan Fajardo]

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http://www.tourdeforce360.com/madison_protest/


--
- Juan



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Re: [Marxism] Libyan "Ambassador" issues demand for immediate U.S. bombing ca...

[martin schiller]

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On Mar 4, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Alistair Boyd-Bell wrote:

> Er, are you suggesting that George and Paddy are automatically more correct
> because they (may) have greater age and experience? Because that in itself
> seems rather non-dialectical to me.

Gets more logical as you age.

martin


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Re: [Marxism] Libyan "Ambassador" issues demand for immediate U.S. bombing ca...

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/4/11 6:13 PM, Alistair Boyd-Bell wrote:



Er, are you suggesting that George and Paddy are automatically more correct
because they (may) have greater age and experience? Because that in itself
seems rather non-dialectical to me.



A rabbi goes into a saloon with a parrot on his shoulder...


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Re: [Marxism] Libya

[Paula]

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John wrote:
"Firstly, treating the post-colonial histories of countries as diverse as 
Libya

and Australia in the one breath is a serious error."

No two countries are ever alike, so the moment you classify countries, you 
are going to bring together diverse elements.


Libya and Australia are different in countless ways, but they are similar in 
this respect: they are not colonies or semi-colonies; they are independent 
states with relatively small spheres of influence.


Sure, we know that independent states vary in size, reach, etc. Venezuela's 
economy is larger and more industrialized than Norway's, Indonesia's economy 
is larger and more industrialized than New Zealand's, etc. Some independent 
nations have much less economic power and political influence than any of 
these. It's a pecking order; variety is what we should expect, and there's 
always someone at the bottom of the pile.


Look again at the figures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Note that the "Great Powers" too are a diverse group of countries.
Today, at least in terms of GDP size ( and not counting the EU as one), the 
6 most powerful countries are the US, China, Japan, India, Germany, and 
Russia.

Quite a lot of variety there - as we would expect.

"Libya has since developed an oil industry and Libyan money has been used
in investments outside its borders and as funding for the African Union, as 
the
map Paula posted laid out. But to claim therefor that Libya has "join[ed] 
the
ranks of the "smaller" imperialist states" is to deny the big picture of 
Libya's

post-colonial history."

Libya's development of a heavily monopolized industry, its use of the 
super-profits derived from it to buy off a section of the population, invest 
abroad, fund foreign adventures, etc - that's the actual picture of Libya's 
recent history. And it's a fairly typical picture of imperialist 
development.


Louis wrote:
"it would be useful to see why Canada succeeded and Argentina did not".

Canada's economy today is larger than Argentina's, but Argentina's is larger 
than Austria's. Don't forget, success is relative. And that's before we ask 
which class reaps most of its benefits under the current economic system.


Paula 




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Re: [Marxism] Libyan "Ambassador" issues demand for immediate U.S. bombing ca...

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/4/11 5:44 PM, midhurs...@aol.com wrote:


These mechanistic theories
Tend to always underestimate the dialectical process
In other words you're wrong
George Anthony



Considering the fact that the combined ages of George and Paddy is 
something like 165 and that both were members of the CPGB for decades, I 
would suggest that Nestor defer to older and wiser heads.



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Re: [Marxism] Libyan "Ambassador" issues demand for immediate U.S. bombing ca...

[Midhurst14]

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These mechanistic theories
Tend to always underestimate the dialectical process
In other words you're wrong
George Anthony

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Re: [Marxism] Libyan "Ambassador" issues demand for immediate U.S. bombing campaign

[Paddy Apling]

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Comrade Nestor,

Of course it does - it implies that this member of the Libyan ruling class has 
concluded that there is going to be a change of regime - and he wants to keep 
his position.

That is clear.

But it is up to you, Nestor, to explain how this implies that those 
demonstrating in the streets of Tripoli and fighting around Benghazi and other 
towns in Libya are not interested in revolution but are (apparently in your 
opinion) tools of US imperialism.

I put what I see as the true position as clearly as I possibly could in my last 
post at 19.05 (GMT) - cannot you see that Chavez and Fidel are mistaken on this 
issue?

Paddy
http://apling.freeservers.com


-Original Message-
From: marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu 
[mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu]
 On Behalf Of Néstor Gorojovsky
Sent: 04 March 2011 10:04 PM
To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Libyan "Ambassador" issues demand for immediate U.S. 
bombing campaign

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Has any Egyptian ambassador taken same step?

Doesn´t this imply anything?





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Re: [Marxism] Libyan "Ambassador" issues demand for immediate U.S. bombing campaign

[johnedmundson]

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In reply to:

> > Ali Aujali, the Libyan Ambassador to the U.S. who says he no longer
> > represents the Gaddafi government (but still claims to be the Ambassador),
> > just issued a plea on live TV (Fox News with Shep Smith) for immediate U.S.
> > military action in the form of bombing military bases and headquarters loyal
> > to Gaddafi.

Néstor Gorojovsky asks:

> Has any Egyptian ambassador taken same step?

> Doesn´t this imply anything?

This is the sort of thing I'm finding frustrating. A Gaddafi appointee turned
defector calls for the bombing of his own country and we're supposed to read
this as proof that the struggle against Gaddafi is somehow riddled with
reaction. We could equally interpret it as meaning Gaddafi's regime is more
closely aligned with imperialism since he chose this guy to represent him.

A perhaps more likely explanation is that with the Egyptian army deciding it
wouldn't shoot at the demonstrators, the situation never arose. This was also
true in Tunisia. The Egyptian army has now attempted to sieze control and as far
as possible keep business as usual and retain close ties with the West. Elements
within the Libyan army and broader resistance will attempt to do the same. They
may succeed in both cases but the revolutionary attempt to rid a people of the
(pro-Western) dictator is no less valid for having tried. Plenty of revolutions
fail. If these ones fail that will be a set back the anti-imperialist struggle.
But people will learn and perhaps will be more capable of keeping the
reactionaries out next time, whenever that is. On the other hand they may
succeed, in which case those who abstained will have a lot of catching up to do.

Cheers,
John


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Re: [Marxism] Libyan "Ambassador" issues demand for immediate U.S. bombing campaign

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

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Has any Egyptian ambassador taken same step?

Doesn´t this imply anything?

2011/3/4 Eli Stephens :
>
>
>
> Ali Aujali, the Libyan Ambassador to the U.S. who says he no longer 
> represents the Gaddafi government (but still claims to be the Ambassador), 
> just issued a plea on live TV (Fox News with Shep Smith) for immediate U.S. 
> military action in the form of bombing military bases and headquarters loyal 
> to Gaddafi.
>
> Eli Stephens
>

-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría


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[Marxism] Leftists, stop being the mirror image of imperialist powers

[fesen joon]

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"What else do you guys want on top of Lenin as the leader of revolutions in
Iran, Libya, Egypt, etc.? How about "Baghlavaa topped with some extra honey"
as my Kurdish Grandma would say or "Kabab with an extra tomato" as Persian
speakers would say?"

http://revolutionaryfesenjan.blogspot.com/2011/03/leftists-stop-being-mirror-image-of.html

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Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

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Dear Marv, excuse me for brevity and causticity:

History is always concrete.

And perhaps that socialist movement disappeared, among other reasons,
because more times than not its members, in full honesty but wrongly,
fought regimes that did not look "national-democratic" any more, only
to realize it was too late after those regimes were trhown away and
the stooges of imperialism took helm.

2011/3/4 Marv Gandall :
> ==
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> ==
>
>
>
> On 2011-03-04, at 2:04 PM, Paddy Apling wrote:
>>
>> No doubt there are tribalists, monarchists, Islamic fundamentalists, and all
>> sorts of other "...ists" that we have never heard about, and cannot
>> understand, among the crowds opposing tyranny.  But they are in ACTION
>> against tyranny !!
>>
>> NO revolution has ever - or WILL EVER HAPPEN - that only includes people who
>> have a rational understanding of the vast issues involved.  These are simple
>> people - just like the people you pass in the street or in the shops when
>> you go to by your food.  They are not political theorists like so many of us
>> on this list - they are just coming on to the streets because things have
>> just gone beyond what they can put up with any longer.   They just know that
>> things have become INTOLERABLE and they want CHANGE  !!!  Most of them have
>> not the slightest idea what they mean by change - but they know they want
>> it.
>
> Had the once powerful international socialist movement not disappeared from 
> the historical stage, can there be any doubt that its Libyan cadres would not 
> now be at the forefront of the democratic struggle against a repressive 
> regime which can no longer lay claim to any anti-imperialist credentials? 
> Would the presence of bourgeois liberal democrats and Islamists in the Libyan 
> and related Middle Eastern movements - or the declared support of imperialist 
> nations for their liberal bourgeois leaders - have caused them to turn on 
> these movements and join the autocratic regimes in bloodily repressing them? 
> Would they be challenging the bourgeois democrats and Islamists for 
> leadership of the more radically democratic Libyan masses - whose political 
> objectives have an underlying social and incipiently revolutionary character 
> - or would they be standing apart from their uprising as mainly inspired and 
> directed by foreign imperialist and even "monarchist" (!) agents? Would the 
> calls by its bourgeois liberal faction for foreign military assistance be 
> enough in itself to justify its suppression?
>
> Obviously rhetorical questions on my part, but I'd be interested in the 
> response to them by Nestor, Fred, Eli and others who have distanced 
> themselves from the Libyan movement.
>
>
>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at: 
> http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/nmgoro%40gmail.com
>



-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría


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[Marxism] Egypt and Lybia

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

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2011/3/4 Marce Cameron :
>
>

> Fidel and Chavez did not hesitate to express their
> support for the popular upsurge in Egypt, yet Walter did not rush to
> denounce this "interference" in Egypt's internal affairs.
>

The main "interference" in Egypt´s internal affairs was Mubarak,
against who revolted the rebels. The difference between Marce, Chávez,
Fidel, and some few on this list (perhaps just two among the vocal
ones) lays in that we don´t buy the idea that Gadafi and Mubarak are
one and the same thing only because they seem to have been equally
cruel to their own peoples (and some even dare defy this fact by
showing that Lybia enjoyed high HDI and other issues, which of course
are reactionary data in themselves).

-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría


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Re: [Marxism] Re. Libya and list discussion

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

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"The national question is subordinate to the class struggle"!

I guess Marce writes from either the US of America or England. If this
is the case, then Marce should convert Marx, who during the US
American civil war supported the bourgeois and petty bourgeois
national struggle of the North against the South instead of, like the
British bourgeoisie, support the right of the British workers to have
cheap cotton so they could have jobs and not layoffs.

Social reformism at its best!

2011/3/4 Marce Cameron :
>
>
>
> I disagree with Walter Lippmann's comments on Libya on Marxmail. I
> think Fidel and Chavez have blundered in not clearly expressing their
> support with the revolutionary insurrection against the West's thug in
> Tripoli, Colonel Gaddafi. The national question is subordinate to the
> class struggle.

Maybe Marce should make sure there is no West thug in Benghazi.

-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría


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Re: [Marxism] Re. Libya and list discussion

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/4/2011 4:02 PM, Marce Cameron wrote:

But I urge Louis Proyect to reconsider his decision to expel Walter
Lippman from this list. This is a necessary debate and one that should
be allowed to run its course on Marxmail. Censoring Walter's views
because they are different from those of the list editor is childish
and diminishes the value of Marxmail.



As I have pointed out in prior controversies surrounding Walter 
Lippmann, virtually everything he posted here can be read on the 
Greenleft mailing list or on CubaNews, a list that he moderates:


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/messages

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/messages

Of course, the very fact that his pronouncements are broadcast in 
this manner should give you a sense of his mission to spread the 
gospel of Cuban foreign policy.




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Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer

[Marv Gandall]

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On 2011-03-04, at 2:04 PM, Paddy Apling wrote:
> 
> No doubt there are tribalists, monarchists, Islamic fundamentalists, and all
> sorts of other "...ists" that we have never heard about, and cannot
> understand, among the crowds opposing tyranny.  But they are in ACTION
> against tyranny !!
> 
> NO revolution has ever - or WILL EVER HAPPEN - that only includes people who
> have a rational understanding of the vast issues involved.  These are simple
> people - just like the people you pass in the street or in the shops when
> you go to by your food.  They are not political theorists like so many of us
> on this list - they are just coming on to the streets because things have
> just gone beyond what they can put up with any longer.   They just know that
> things have become INTOLERABLE and they want CHANGE  !!!  Most of them have
> not the slightest idea what they mean by change - but they know they want
> it.

Had the once powerful international socialist movement not disappeared from the 
historical stage, can there be any doubt that its Libyan cadres would not now 
be at the forefront of the democratic struggle against a repressive regime 
which can no longer lay claim to any anti-imperialist credentials? Would the 
presence of bourgeois liberal democrats and Islamists in the Libyan and related 
Middle Eastern movements - or the declared support of imperialist nations for 
their liberal bourgeois leaders - have caused them to turn on these movements 
and join the autocratic regimes in bloodily repressing them? Would they be 
challenging the bourgeois democrats and Islamists for leadership of the more 
radically democratic Libyan masses - whose political objectives have an 
underlying social and incipiently revolutionary character - or would they be 
standing apart from their uprising as mainly inspired and directed by foreign 
imperialist and even "monarchist" (!) agents? Would the calls by its bourgeois 
liberal faction for foreign military assistance be enough in itself to justify 
its suppression?

Obviously rhetorical questions on my part, but I'd be interested in the 
response to them by Nestor, Fred, Eli and others who have distanced themselves 
from the Libyan movement.




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[Marxism] Re. Libya and list discussion

[Marce Cameron]

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I disagree with Walter Lippmann's comments on Libya on Marxmail. I
think Fidel and Chavez have blundered in not clearly expressing their
support with the revolutionary insurrection against the West's thug in
Tripoli, Colonel Gaddafi. The national question is subordinate to the
class struggle. Fidel and Chavez did not hesitate to express their
support for the popular upsurge in Egypt, yet Walter did not rush to
denounce this "interference" in Egypt's internal affairs.

But I urge Louis Proyect to reconsider his decision to expel Walter
Lippman from this list. This is a necessary debate and one that should
be allowed to run its course on Marxmail. Censoring Walter's views
because they are different from those of the list editor is childish
and diminishes the value of Marxmail.

Marce Cameron


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[Marxism] Libyan "Ambassador" issues demand for immediate U.S. bombing campaign

[Eli Stephens]

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Ali Aujali, the Libyan Ambassador to the U.S. who says he no longer represents 
the Gaddafi government (but still claims to be the Ambassador), just issued a 
plea on live TV (Fox News with Shep Smith) for immediate U.S. military action 
in the form of bombing military bases and headquarters loyal to Gaddafi.

Eli Stephens
 Left I on the News
 http://lefti.blogspot.com

  

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[Marxism] An anthropologist does field work on Wall Street

[Louis Proyect]

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Counterpunch Weekend Edition
March 4 - 6, 2011
The Financial Times' "Anthropologist in America"
How Will Gillian Tett Connect With the Natives of the US Left?

By BRIAN McKENNA

Gillian Tett is an anthropologist on the move. She's worked for a 
Pakistani non-profit (at 17), covered war in the former Soviet 
Union and documented Japan's financial fall (Tett, 2003). For her 
Ph.D. fieldwork in anthropology, Tett studied marriage rituals in 
Tajikistan. But Tett's greatest anthropological achievement came 
when she studied "the tribe" of J.P. Morgan, (a global financial 
services corporation) right in her own backyard of London, 
England. Tett sleuthed how a group of Gordon Gekko-type hot-shots 
brought capitalism to its knees.


“It was completely mad in places,” said Tett.

As a columnist for the Financial Times, in 2005-2007, Tett went 
out on the limb and told the world about her ethnographic 
findings, warning of a catastrophe ahead. Her bestselling "Fool's 
Gold" (2009) tells this story with dramatic punch, unpacking the 
history of obscure financial processes known collateralized debt 
obligations and credit default swaps, which she had suspected lay 
at the root of a possible nightmare. It turns out that these 
instruments were a chief spark for the meltdown.  Why weren't more 
people aware of this fact?


"It was all incredibly tribal," said Tett, "people's loyalties are 
tribal. They are in separate silos [canisters of specialization] 
and all these silos are competing with one another, so people hog 
onto information at all costs, so only people at the top can see 
what is going on." But those people did nothing, so Tett did.


And she's now a movie star. Tett plays a significant role in the 
award-winning film “Inside Job” (2010) the first film to provide a 
comprehensive analysis of the global financial crisis of 2008.  If 
you do not have time to read the book, go see the movie, the 
counter-curriculum to neoliberal deceptions. Narrated by Matt 
Damon it is highly entertaining and dreadfully depressing.


As Managing Editor of the Financial Times, Tett is one of the most 
powerful women in media.   She arrived in the U.S. this past 
summer and is prepared to take the country by storm, suiting up to 
take on rivals at the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. 
 FT management so appreciated her fieldwork in Fool's Gold that 
they gave her a column, "An Anthropologist in America."


full: http://www.counterpunch.org/mckenna03042011.html


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[Marxism] Historical Materialism symposium on Lars Lih’s “Lenin Reconsidered”

[Louis Proyect]

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The September 2010 issue of Historical Materialism includes a 
symposium on Lars Lih’s “Lenin Reconsidered”, a mammoth book that 
includes his own new translation of “What is to be Done” (Chto 
Delat in Russian)—the object of his research. Put simply, Lih 
argues that this seminal text is not a harbinger of a party of a 
“new type” but rather Lenin’s call for building a party in Czarist 
Russia that is modeled on the German Social Democracy. Not only 
did I come to this conclusion long before reading anything Lih has 
written (I confess to having read only partial selections of 
“Lenin Reconsidered”), I have quoted this selection from WITBD 
frequently to support this claim:


	Why is there not a single political event in Germany that does 
not add to the authority and prestige of Social-Democracy? Because 
Social-Democracy is always found to be in advance of all others in 
furnishing the most revolutionary appraisal of every given event 
and in championing every protest against tyranny. It does not lull 
itself with arguments that the economic struggle brings the 
workers to realise that they have no political rights and that the 
concrete conditions unavoidably impel the working-class movement 
on to the path of revolution. It intervenes in every sphere and in 
every question of social and political life; in the matter of 
Wilhelm’s refusal to endorse a bourgeois progressist as city mayor 
(our Economists have not yet managed to educate. the Germans to 
the understanding that such an act is, in fact, a compromise with 
liberalism!); in the matter of the law against “obscene” 
publications and pictures; in the matter of governmental influence 
on the election of professors, etc., etc. Everywhere the 
Social-Democrats are found in the forefront, rousing political 
discontent among all classes, rousing the sluggards, stimulating 
the laggards, and providing a wealth of material for the 
development of the political consciousness and the political 
activity of the proletariat.


I especially love the business about “obscene” publications and 
government interference in the election of professors. That’s a 
Lenin who would appreciate what we are up against today, with 
neo-Czarists like Glenn Beck and Daniel Pipes on the scene.


full: 
http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/historical-materialism-symposium-on-lars-lihs-lenin-reconsidered/



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Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer

[Paddy Apling]

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Dear Comrade Nestor,

I am really surprised that you are unable to see the reality of the Arab
revolution (which indeed has nothing to do DIRECTLY with the fight for
socialism in the western world) - but has EVERYTHING to do with the common
fight of the common people against the moneybags.

We should be exhilarated that the Arabs are revolting against the oppression
that the west (led originally by Britain and subsequently by the USA) has
dealt them since 1918.

No doubt there are tribalists, monarchists, Islamic fundamentalists, and all
sorts of other "...ists" that we have never heard about, and cannot
understand, among the crowds opposing tyranny.  But they are in ACTION
against tyranny !!

NO revolution has ever - or WILL EVER HAPPEN - that only includes people who
have a rational understanding of the vast issues involved.  These are simple
people - just like the people you pass in the street or in the shops when
you go to by your food.  They are not political theorists like so many of us
on this list - they are just coming on to the streets because things have
just gone beyond what they can put up with any longer.   They just know that
things have become INTOLERABLE and they want CHANGE  !!!  Most of them have
not the slightest idea what they mean by change - but they know they want
it.

This is the situation where your REAL understanding as a revolutionary is
tested.  You must be able to talk to the people in words they understand -
to help them towards an understanding of who their REAL enemies are - and to
help THEM make a BETTER LIFE for themselves and their families.  (That is
why I became both a scientist and a communist).

Surely that is the fundamental reason we are revolutionaries - not to show
how important Marxism is to let us understand the world - but to CHANGE the
world for the betterment of HUMANITY, whatever its peculiarities and
beliefs. 

Tyrants like Gaddaffi (and Mugabe), whatever their revolutionary
credentials, have no place in this HUMAN fight for Liberté, Fraternité et
Equalité.THAT, the idea of the French Revolution is what we are fighting
for under the banner of Socialism and Marxism - the same REVOLUTIONARY
slogan of the common people for centuries.

Of course our governments want to control what happens in the future of the
Arabian countries - howver, the people may be SIMPLE in theoretical terms -
but they are not STUPID = and THEY HAVE GOT OFF THEIR KNEES - which is for
evermore just for worshipping Allah on Saturdays.

Finally, we should realise, that without knowing it - they are fighting for
US as well.  Let us work for a HUGE turn out for the TUC demo on March 26th.

Paddy
http://apling.freeservers.com


-Original Message-
From:
marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.
edu] On Behalf Of dave x
Sent: 04 March 2011 4:55 PM
To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer

==
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Nestor:
It is too easy to tell me I slander those you have defined as
"revolutionaries" (without much experience of Lybian issues, I presume),
when I have simply shown that they are, at most, "rebels", with some
unsavory and (for a revolutionary) uncanny elements within.





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Re: [Marxism] Qaddafi's goons beat up Telesur reporters and destroy their footage

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

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Five hours, in fact. And after that he was harassed. But he did not extract
the conclusions many are extracting.

But Nicolàs Maduro has just agreed with the Lybian FM to form the
international commission that Chavez, "boldly" (that is the way Fidel called
it), proposed.

I understand the outrage that has caught most cdes. on this list for the
attacks on demo rights in Lybia. But I guess that you are missing something,
cdes.


2011/3/4 Louis Proyect 

>
>
> http://multimedia.telesurtv.net/25/2/2011/27843/el-enviado-especial-de-telesur-en-tripoli-fue-retenido-durante-4-horas/
>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
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>



-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría

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[Marxism] Obama: Libya No-Fly Zone still an Option

[Greg McDonald]

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1362694/Libya-fly-zone-option-Obamas-US-forces-deployed-Middle-East.html


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[Marxism] Qaddafi's goons beat up Telesur reporters and destroy their footage

[Louis Proyect]

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http://multimedia.telesurtv.net/25/2/2011/27843/el-enviado-especial-de-telesur-en-tripoli-fue-retenido-durante-4-horas/


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[Marxism] Venezuela and Libya: it is not an April 11 coup, it is a February 27 Caracazo

[Louis Proyect]

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http://www.marxist.com/venezuelan-libya-not-april-11-but-caracazo.htm


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Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

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==


Dear David, I will crawl back to my cave.

Can`t beat your logic.

2011/3/4 dave x 

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> Nestor:
> It is too easy to tell me I slander those you have defined as
> "revolutionaries" (without much experience of Lybian issues, I presume),
> when I have simply shown that they are, at most, "rebels", with some
> unsavory and (for a revolutionary) uncanny elements within.
>
> Dave:
> The Libyans don't have to prove their revolutionary-ness to you or me
> or anyone else. They have already proven it to themselves with their
> struggle, their courage and their blood. They will prove it to Gadhafi
> too before this is done. One is not a revolutionary because you belong
> to an organization with the word 'revolutionary' in its name or in its
> program. One is a revolutionary because history makes one so, because
> history transforms you, however quotidian or even reactionary one was
> before.
>
> Nestor:
> Again: I am not as sure as most cdes. on this list that there exists room
> for a democratic revolution in Lybia in the "formal" sense of the word that
> does not fall prey, of necessity, of imperialist powers.
>
> What sort of room was there in Russia in February 1917? Indeed what
> sort of room was there for a communist revolution in October? Did
> Lenin and Trotsky think the revolution could survive on its own? The
> Libyan revolution is not occurring in a vacuum but in the midst a
> great transnational revolutionary upheaval. That Nestor thinks it
> might not succeed is no reason not to support the Libyan revolution. I
> mean have you read Marx's Civil War in France? What chances did he
> give them?
> -dave
>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
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>



-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría

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Re: [Marxism] Of course it is

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/4/2011 1:03 PM, Paddy Apling wrote:


What was this message replying to?

I just do not understand what you are talking about.

Paddy
http://apling.freeservers.com



This was a reference to me unsubbing Walter. As if he was being 
"expelled" from a revolutionary organization, an experience he 
went through in the SWP. To my knowledge, it was impossible for 
people to belong to the SWP with phony names and no obligation to 
pay a penny in dues--hallmarks of course of listserves. That of 
course is the whole basis of the critiques by Malcolm Gladwell and 
Evgeny Morozov, namely that the Internet cannot be a substitute 
for traditional political organizing.


I agree with this only partially. I never created Marxmail as some 
kind of incipient party. In this I differ from the Kasama Project, 
for example. I only saw it as a place where Marxists could debate 
with each other. Even though the road has been bumpy, I think it 
has fulfilled its goal.



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Re: [Marxism] being unsubbed is not expulsion...

[Jeff]

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==


I hardly consider this worth answering, but just want to point
out to anyone new here that every time this issue comes up Mark
ALWAYS offers the same tired explanation. I guess it could be
described as "pedantry" just as Louis (correctly) described
Walter's post.

My concern isn't that losing a list member is any greater a
tragedy than if they had never been here in the first place, but
rather that such a modus operandi gives the left a bad name.
Just as I think the position on Libya by Walter/PSL/Fidel gives
the left a bad name. And then we hear some whining that those
fighting for freedom and democracy in Libya (etc.) "fail" to
appreciate the legacy of the left. :-(

- Jeff

On Fri, March 4, 2011 15:35, Mark Lause wrote:
>
> ...and email lists aren't parties.  If you see the email list in
> this way,
> I'd urge you to push your chair back, log off, shut down the
> computer and
> take a week to reacquaint yourself with RL.
>
> And parties, as far as that goes, aren't microcosms of some
> future society.
> If you are trying to live your life in that shell, I think you
> should break
> out of it as well...
>
> Taken for what it is, this part of cyberspace--notwithstanding
> the
> subject--is not socially or democratically owned and managed.  I
> don't even
> know how you could attempt such an experiment of doing this in a
> useful
> way.
>
> The better analogy, frequently made, is that this is a different
> kind of
> "party."  We're a group of people having a discussion as we're
> sitting
> around the moderator's living room.  The host makes the rules.
> Each of us
> would probably do this a little differently, but that's the way
> it goes.
>
> The most important question is whether the list does anything at
> all for us
> we couldn't get any other way.  I think our presence here rather
> answers
> that question.  If it does, we should refrain from lighting
> large cheap
> cigars and throwing matches in the moderator's waste can.
>
> ML

[Intentionally not clipped]




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Re: [Marxism] Of course it is

[Paddy Apling]

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==


What was this message replying to?

I just do not understand what you are talking about.

Paddy
http://apling.freeservers.com

-Original Message-
From:
marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.
edu] On Behalf Of Mark Lause
Sent: 04 March 2011 4:08 PM
To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com
Cc: Jeff
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Of course it is


Really?  You really think so?

Have I missed something?  Is this email list organizing joint propaganda
over anything?  Running a newspaper?  Holding any interventions?  How about
even formulating "a line" on something?

I think that radicals, no less than anyone else in modern civic culture,
tends to use online things as a substitute for real activity.  This isn't an
organization and people should stop using it as a substitute for one.

If you think you think we need such an organization, you should direct your
attentions to building one.

ML




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Re: [Marxism] A Libyan exception?

[Paddy Apling]

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No, there's no exception except the earlier history of the tyrant.  Like in
so many previous cases, the leader of an earlier revolution which has not
resulted in continuing democratic activities of the masses (whether these
are regarded as proletarians, peasants - or any other name by us Marxists -
but where the social composition of the populace goes some way to explain
what happened in the interim) that (a popular) leader of the revolution
found himself forced into the situation of a tyrant (cf. Joseph Stalin; or
even Bonaparte) and becomes completely separated from the humanistic ideals
of the revolution, with only HIS power remaining as the important result of
the revolution.

We have two examples remaining today - Qadaffi in Libya and Mugabe in
Zimbabwe - and as one who in his youth regarded Joseph Stalin as an examplar
(as he undoubtedly was - compared to the others sharing the world stage
during the time of the rise of fascism, the invasion of Abyssinia, the
Spanish Civil War and during WW2) - eventually became one who could only be
regarded as a unconscionable tyrant.

History has, so to speak, left these people behind - they have become
embarrassments to the continuing revolutionary tradition.

It is, for me, a sorrow that such people have been unable to adept
themselves to the changes in the world around them, and so have become
individuals to be execrated rather than admired - that their earlier
contributions are just forgotten rather than inscribed in the complicated
history of the struggle of the common people  against their exploiters.

History has left Qadaffi behind.  He imagines himself living in a period
which has passed 

Paddy
http://apling.freeservers.com



-Original Message-
From: marxism- POST
OFFICE.—bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.eco
nomics.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.
edu] On Behalf Of Louis Proyect
Sent: 04 March 2011 3:24 PM
To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com
Subject: [Marxism] A Libyan exception?


Libya, so it goes, should be treated as an "exception" because the 
"revolution there is stage-managed by the CIA" which targets 
Qaddafi for elimination because of his "anti-imperialist" posture 
in the Middle East, a posture that extended to other parts of the 
world through (what is portrayed as) his unconditional support for 
national liberation movements.

Libya further should be treated as an "exception" because Qaddafi 
is an Arab socialist and his socialism has given (apparently) 
Libyans a life way better than most Arabs; in fact, even better 
than the life of some people in the West.




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Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer

[dave x]

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Nestor:
It is too easy to tell me I slander those you have defined as
"revolutionaries" (without much experience of Lybian issues, I presume),
when I have simply shown that they are, at most, "rebels", with some
unsavory and (for a revolutionary) uncanny elements within.

Dave:
The Libyans don't have to prove their revolutionary-ness to you or me
or anyone else. They have already proven it to themselves with their
struggle, their courage and their blood. They will prove it to Gadhafi
too before this is done. One is not a revolutionary because you belong
to an organization with the word 'revolutionary' in its name or in its
program. One is a revolutionary because history makes one so, because
history transforms you, however quotidian or even reactionary one was
before.

Nestor:
Again: I am not as sure as most cdes. on this list that there exists room
for a democratic revolution in Lybia in the "formal" sense of the word that
does not fall prey, of necessity, of imperialist powers.

What sort of room was there in Russia in February 1917? Indeed what
sort of room was there for a communist revolution in October? Did
Lenin and Trotsky think the revolution could survive on its own? The
Libyan revolution is not occurring in a vacuum but in the midst a
great transnational revolutionary upheaval. That Nestor thinks it
might not succeed is no reason not to support the Libyan revolution. I
mean have you read Marx's Civil War in France? What chances did he
give them?
-dave


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Re: [Marxism] Of course it is

[Mark Lause]

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Really?  You really think so?

Have I missed something?  Is this email list organizing joint propaganda
over anything?  Running a newspaper?  Holding any interventions?  How about
even formulating "a line" on something?

I think that radicals, no less than anyone else in modern civic culture,
tends to use online things as a substitute for real activity.  This isn't an
organization and people should stop using it as a substitute for one.

If you think you think we need such an organization, you should direct your
attentions to building one.

ML

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Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer

[Néstor Gorojovsky]

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I have NEVER said the Lybian rebels are in any kind of conspiracy. I still
refrain from callint them revolutionaries.

Again: I am not as sure as most cdes. on this list that there exists room
for a democratic revolution in Lybia in the "formal" sense of the word that
does not fall prey, of necessity, of imperialist powers.

And as I always stress: I hope I am wrong.

2011/3/4 Louis Proyect 

>
>
> On 3/4/2011 10:28 AM, Néstor Gorojovsky wrote:
>
>>
>> Not only I have seen "truly revolutionary movements" but as an Argentinean
>> I
>> have even had the joy of being at the forefront of a couple of them.
>>
>> I have not said that the Lybian rebels are monarchists. I have said that
>> when you look at such a movement as allows monarchists to be part of their
>> ranks, then you should think it twice  before labeling those rebels as
>> "revolutionaries".
>>
>
>
> Nestor, the same kinds of smears have been directed against Juan Peron.
> Don't you remember all the bullshit about Nazis working in Argentina after
> WWII? One would think that you would step a bit more gingerly when it comes
> to applying litmus tests in Libya in light of this.
>
> And what do you mean by allowing monarchists in their ranks? This is a
> chaotic mass movement, not under the direction of a seasoned and highly
> disciplined cadre. This is the same kind of reasoning I have heard from
> ultraleft opponents of the trade union movement in Iran. Because Freedom
> House endorses the bus drivers, we are led to believe that the union is in
> some kind of conspiracy. Nobody can prevent Freedom House from issuing such
> a proclamation and nobody can stop a Libyan monarchist from doing the same
> thing.
>
> That is called politics.
> 
>



-- 

Néstor Gorojovsky
El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría

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[Marxism] Mau Mau (Was Re: A moderator's view solicitation)

[Bill Quimby]

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It was in use back in the 70's, when the Black Panther movement was in
full stride.

See this wikipedia item for some background.



- Bill

martin schiller wrote:


I would like to ask when the term Mau Mau began being used in reference to the 
US
president, and why? I can read neither positive or negative inference from 
reading
wiki entries on the history. Anyway, I heard the term used a half dozen times on
MSNBC today, and wondered if you could provide a marxist analysis of the history
and the application if the term to Obama?

martin



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Re: [Marxism] Protest

[John Obrien]

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I respect comrade Louis P. and his contributions and efforts including
this List, but I have to agree with comrade Apling's recent email and
others, on what has become the Walter Lipmann question.

I would also ask that comrade Lipmann be allowed back on this List.
Perhaps a 30 - 60 day suspension, would be a good compromise, so
there is some mental payment for putting the moderator through 
mental stress. 

Perhaps if when comrades act immature or deliberately, as in comrade
Lippmann's case to be a drama queen and tweek the moderator, they
can still be viewed to have the potential to bring important insight and
knowledge to those on this List.

I was really moved by comrade Apling's remarks and insights on the
current events unfolding and that comrade Lippmann who has become 
unfortunately in my opinion more stalinized in his political thinking,
still can contribute and should be respected for his own many years
of activism, despite his moving (temporarily?) away from internationalism
that he reflects in his current insight.  But I do ask to include the unique 
comrades, with their strengths and weaknesses among us on this List. 



> From: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 14:17:38 +
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Protest
 

> Hallo Lou,
> 
> I must DIS-agree with your unsubbing of Walter Lippman,  whose recent return
> to the list I have much welcomed, although I often do not agree with him, he
> is a thoughtful correspondent I can have useful discussions with.  Please
> let him back to the list, and just let any comments of his that raise your
> ire fall "like water off a duck's back".
> 
> I don't mind telling you that as communist for something like 70 years I
> have never felt so excited about entering a revolutionary situation (even
> including those years of 1944-6, when 1947/8 followed with the start of the
> Cold War).  
> 
> This is not, nor cannot be, a revolution against world capitalism, it is the
> revolt of the whole Arab world against what they have been subjected to
> since 1918; it is a national-democratic revolution (akin perhaps to 1905 or
> February 1917 in Russia).
  

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Re: [Marxism] PL: Mass Pressure Leads Egyptian Prime Minister to Resign

[Eli Stephens]

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==



Alistair asks: " is it really worth our while censoring ourselves on a Marxist 
list for fear of what a right-wing clown might say about us?"

No, I don't think so, which is why I mentioned that second and noted it was a 
"lesser issue." If that was the only fear, I wouldn't think it of concern at 
all. But the question of the banners we'll be seeing raised at future 
demonstrations, or even what banners we'll see on the stages of those 
demonstrations (and, as a result, how they are portrayed in the media and how 
they are perceived by the public) is a very real one.



Eli Stephens
 Left I on the News
 http://lefti.blogspot.com

  

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Re: [Marxism] Libyan rebels reject Hugo Chávez mediation offer

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/4/2011 10:28 AM, Néstor Gorojovsky wrote:


Not only I have seen "truly revolutionary movements" but as an Argentinean I
have even had the joy of being at the forefront of a couple of them.

I have not said that the Lybian rebels are monarchists. I have said that
when you look at such a movement as allows monarchists to be part of their
ranks, then you should think it twice  before labeling those rebels as
"revolutionaries".


Nestor, the same kinds of smears have been directed against Juan 
Peron. Don't you remember all the bullshit about Nazis working in 
Argentina after WWII? One would think that you would step a bit 
more gingerly when it comes to applying litmus tests in Libya in 
light of this.


And what do you mean by allowing monarchists in their ranks? This 
is a chaotic mass movement, not under the direction of a seasoned 
and highly disciplined cadre. This is the same kind of reasoning I 
have heard from ultraleft opponents of the trade union movement in 
Iran. Because Freedom House endorses the bus drivers, we are led 
to believe that the union is in some kind of conspiracy. Nobody 
can prevent Freedom House from issuing such a proclamation and 
nobody can stop a Libyan monarchist from doing the same thing.


That is called politics.



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Re: [Marxism] PL: Mass Pressure Leads Egyptian Prime Minister to Resign

[Alistair Boyd-Bell]

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On the other hand, is it really worth our while censoring ourselves on a
Marxist list for fear of what a right-wing clown might say about us,
especially given that nobody we're likely to recruit to a Marxist way of
thinking takes him seriously?

On 4 March 2011 15:03, Eli Stephens  wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
>
> John writes about the shouted (ALL CAPS) slogan: "Because the audience for
> the statement was the people on this list, some of whom are skeptical about
> that "people's revolution". In that context it is no threat to the
> revolution and will not bring intervention any closer. It was being declared
> to a group who I think unanimously oppose intervention and would understand
> that context."
>
> Well, perhaps, although I took the way things have been expressed to
> suggest that this will be a banner I'll be seeing at the next demonstration
> (if indeed it hasn't already been seen at a demonstration I've missed). And,
> based on my experience over the years in relation to Iran, I frankly expect
> to see that banner but with the first half missing, namely, "Victory to the
> People's Revolution in Libya" WITHOUT the "U.S. Hands Off" portion, and I
> expect to see that from people calling themselves "left."
>
> That's of course over and above the lesser issue that nothing on this list
> is actually private, and you could well hear Glenn Beck (who just for
> example shows videos from PSL conferences on his show, videos that were
> available on the Internet just as these conversations are available) talking
> about it.
>
>
> Eli Stephens
>  Left I on the News
>  http://lefti.blogspot.com
>
>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
> http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/andrensath%40gmail.com
>

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Re: [Marxism] A Libyan exception?

[Eli Stephens]

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"It is Right to Rebel? Yes, except Libya"

Really? So when the South seceded from the United States (they even called 
themselves the "Rebels"), that was a progressive thing? We should have 
supported it?

No, every rebellion is not to be supported. There ARE such things as 
counter-revolutions. Is that what is happening in Libya? I personally don't 
think it is clear what is happening, aside from the fact that there is a civil 
war in progress. But what I particularly object to is the idea that it MUST 
ipso facto be progressive because, after all, it is a "rebellion." No, it 
doesn't work that way.


Eli Stephens
 Left I on the News
 http://lefti.blogspot.com

  

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[Marxism] The Untold Story of One of America's Largest Slave Revolts

[Louis Proyect]

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http://www.theroot.com/views/untold-story-unknown-hero

The Untold Story of One of America's Largest Slave Revolts
By: Wendell Hassan Marsh
Posted: February 25, 2011 at 3:46 PM

Some history books try to tell a story. Others try to turn history 
upside down, challenging preconceived notions about winners and 
losers. American Uprising: The Untold Story of America's Largest 
Slave Revolt does the latter.


Some history books try to tell a story. Others try to turn those 
stories on their heads, breaking apart what has been accepted as 
truth in the process. Daniel Rasmussen's American Uprising: The 
Untold Story of America's Largest Slave Revolt (Harper) tries to 
do the latter.


Through his account of the little-known 1811 Louisiana slave 
rebellion, the 24-year-old recent Harvard grad challenges popular 
narratives of docile and simple slaves who seldom engaged in 
subversive activity to gain freedom. He does this by repositioning 
slave struggles in larger intellectual and political movements of 
the era. He also wreaks havoc on that well-worn archetype of the 
tragic mulatto.


About the Louisiana rebellion, American historians generally have 
agreed on a few things: In the middle of the night on Jan. 8, 
1811, a small group of slaves entered the bedroom of plantation 
owner Manuel Andry in his German Coast, La., home. After slaves 
slung a few axes and other domestic weapons, a wounded Andry 
managed to escape, but his son did not. The slaves then quickly 
seized arms and marched to New Orleans, picking up fighters along 
the way as whites fled in fear. The revolt, however, was quickly 
put down by a local militia.


That's where the story splits. The official storyline that 
then-Louisiana Gov. William C.C. Claiborne pushed and that most 
historians have accepted was that the slaves were a simple band of 
"brigands" out to pillage and plunder. The quick suppression and 
subsequent un-due process in the courts proved a testament to the 
power of American legality in the wake of the Louisiana Purchase.


But Rasmussen digs into the scant historical evidence that remains 
and builds a different account. The author situates the events in 
larger, international political and intellectual currents, 
revealing the sophistication of his subjects that many histories 
of slave rebels fail to portray. By the author's account, the 1804 
Haitian revolution victory inspired slaves around the colonies to 
rebel. The timing of the revolt -- when there was little work and 
the white elites were preparing for Carnival celebrations, paired 
with the absence of a significant force of order because of 
American expansionism in Spanish West Florida -- speaks to the 
slaves' political and organizational acumen.


A cosmopolitan black republicanism seems to have been ripe in the 
region at the time of the revolt. Maroon colonies in the bayou 
operated as effective bases from which rebels attacked in the 
years leading up to the German Coast uprising. Copies of the 
French Declaration of the Rights of Man were found in slave 
quarters. Battle-hardened warriors from Ghana and Angola also make 
an appearance in Rasmussen's version, in which the rebels march in 
formation and in uniform with cavalry support, not simply to "give 
us us free," as Cinqué asked, but to take control of New Orleans 
and establish a black state.


Rasmussen's history does shift the focus from the "big house" in 
traditional slave-rebellion narratives, but still struggles to 
find those hidden voices of the washhouse in those histories. 
Nevertheless, he does introduce new names to the historical account.


One such name is Charles Deslondes, with whom Rasmussen quite 
successfully transforms the tragic mulatto trope -- a tormented 
figure torn between two worlds -- into the heroic mulatto, a race 
savior who uses the image of and access available to the oppressor 
to liberate the oppressed. Deslondes, who emerges as one of the 
main leaders of the rebellion, is high-yella and green-eyed. 
Instead of enjoying the privilege that his mixed heritage affords 
him, working as a slave driver in Creole Louisiana, Deslondes 
raises arms to fight for freedom.


The bedroom scene in the book, when Andry is attacked, echoes the 
actions of another heroic mulatto, Georges, who, despite meeting a 
tragic end in The Mulatto by Victor Séjour (the first work of 
short black American fiction), presents a symbol of heroic 
African-American armed struggle. Somewhat jarringly, though, 
Rasmussen inserts contemporary vocabulary into historical 
discourse with terms like "sleeper cell" and "guerilla," almost 
leaving the impression that slave rebellion was terrorist activity 
with a sympathetic objective.


In that vein, the 1811 slave rebellion was a 9/11-like 

Re: [Marxism] PL: Mass Pressure Leads Egyptian Prime Minister to Resign

[Eli Stephens]

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John writes about the shouted (ALL CAPS) slogan: "Because the audience for the 
statement was the people on this list, some of whom are skeptical about that 
"people's revolution". In that context it is no threat to the revolution and 
will not bring intervention any closer. It was being declared to a group who I 
think unanimously oppose intervention and would understand that context."

Well, perhaps, although I took the way things have been expressed to suggest 
that this will be a banner I'll be seeing at the next demonstration (if indeed 
it hasn't already been seen at a demonstration I've missed). And, based on my 
experience over the years in relation to Iran, I frankly expect to see that 
banner but with the first half missing, namely, "Victory to the People's 
Revolution in Libya" WITHOUT the "U.S. Hands Off" portion, and I expect to see 
that from people calling themselves "left."

That's of course over and above the lesser issue that nothing on this list is 
actually private, and you could well hear Glenn Beck (who just for example 
shows videos from PSL conferences on his show, videos that were available on 
the Internet just as these conversations are available) talking about it.


Eli Stephens
 Left I on the News
 http://lefti.blogspot.com

  

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Re: [Marxism] Protest

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/4/2011 8:18 AM, Michael Karadjis wrote:


The mainstream over at the Green Left list would probably also
disagree with Walter's view on this, and similar issues, as much
(or perhaps more consistently) than the immoderator here, yet he's
never been threatened with purge and expulsion from there. The
immoderator appears to unsub due to momentary whim, like a nasty
old crank rather than a reasoned political decision maker.


Karadjis, Greenleft is primarily a news list first of all. Second 
of all, I probably made a mistake in allowing Walter back on the 
list. Anybody with both feet on the ground understands that he 
sees his role as "intervening" on behalf of what he perceives as 
the imperatives of Cuban foreign policy. If he was capable of 
mixing this agenda up with observations about California politics, 
hydrofracking, some aspect of Marxist theory, etc., he would have 
not had a problem. I did not create Marxmail to function as a 
parliament of fools making speeches on behalf of a party, even if 
it is a party of one. Get it? Probably not but that's the way it 
goes here.



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[Marxism] USFI critique of Venezuelan and Cuban orientation to the Libyan Revolution

[Chris Latham]

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This article by a leading member of the L/igue Communiste 
Révolutionnaire-Socialistische Arbeiderspart the Belgian section of the 
USFI/ has been been reprinted at International Viewpoint.


The USFI has been extremely supportive of the revolutionary movements 
across the Arab world and this article reflects the critique, of at 
least a section of the FI, of the role of currently being played by both 
the Cuban and Venzuelan Governments in prettifying the Libyan and other 
regimes as anti-imperialist.


Latin America and the Arab revolution: the bankruptcy of Chavism?
http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1999


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[Marxism] Of course it is

[Jeff]

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[Marxism] being unsubbed is not expulsion...

[Mark Lause]

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...and email lists aren't parties.  If you see the email list in this way,
I'd urge you to push your chair back, log off, shut down the computer and
take a week to reacquaint yourself with RL.

And parties, as far as that goes, aren't microcosms of some future society.
If you are trying to live your life in that shell, I think you should break
out of it as well...

Taken for what it is, this part of cyberspace--notwithstanding the
subject--is not socially or democratically owned and managed.  I don't even
know how you could attempt such an experiment of doing this in a useful
way.

The better analogy, frequently made, is that this is a different kind of
"party."  We're a group of people having a discussion as we're sitting
around the moderator's living room.  The host makes the rules.  Each of us
would probably do this a little differently, but that's the way it goes.

The most important question is whether the list does anything at all for us
we couldn't get any other way.  I think our presence here rather answers
that question.  If it does, we should refrain from lighting large cheap
cigars and throwing matches in the moderator's waste can.

ML

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Re: [Marxism] Protest

[Paddy Apling]

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Hallo Lou,

I must DIS-agree with your unsubbing of Walter Lippman,  whose recent return
to the list I have much welcomed, although I often do not agree with him, he
is a thoughtful correspondent I can have useful discussions with.  Please
let him back to the list, and just let any comments of his that raise your
ire fall "like water off a duck's back".

I don't mind telling you that as communist for something like 70 years I
have never felt so excited about entering a revolutionary situation (even
including those years of 1944-6, when 1947/8 followed with the start of the
Cold War).  

This is not, nor cannot be, a revolution against world capitalism, it is the
revolt of the whole Arab world against what they have been subjected to
since 1918; it is a national-democratic revolution (akin perhaps to 1905 or
February 1917 in Russia).  It has the POSSIBILITY of raising the eyes and
aims of the labour movement in the west, but we in the west can do no more
than support these youngsters of the April 6th Movement - wish them well and
look forward to the end of tyrannies (all US and UK supported).

These youngsters are just showing what technically (but not politically)
educated youngsters
can achieve for democracy and freedom.  The Marxist texts of the 19th
century give very little guidance for the new situation of the 21st century
- they (and we) have to determine our own way forward, based on our general
understanding; our (and their) understanding must be of the tactics which
can involve the largest number of people (whether they are working class,
proletariat, petit-bourgeoisie or whatever) in ACTION against the vastly
rich, the those who have collaborated in keeping the Arab peoples in
subjection simce 1918.

UNITY of the greatest number (shades of Jeremiah Bentham and we should not
forget the likes of John Wilkes, 1715-97 against the censorship in Britain)
is the greatest good;  only THIS can secure even the minimal achievements of
the revolution so far.

Socialism (with all the bad things associated with the words socialism and
communism inculcated in the minds of ordinary people 50 or 60 years of US
domination) is just not on the agenda - it only confuses the issues and
helps the counter-revolution at this time: the people need time to learn in
their struggles with the disgustingly rich who have dominated them for so
long.  Only struggles for "simple" issues can work (remember the Bolshevik
slogan of 1917 = Bread and Land).  Today this equates to "Freedom and a
Decent Standard of Living" - or something of that sort - I feel sure  that
Ahmed Maher, the leader of the 6th April Movement in Egypt has a better way
of putting it - but all I have heard, and listened to on Al-Jazeera suggests
to me that he may be the Lenin of the moment.

Comrades, think this through.  It is not enough, now, to be submerged in the
Marxist classics.  You must be able to put yourself into that great mind of
Karl Marx and work out for yourselves what - two centuries later - he would
have advised.  (I think I have just an inkling.  Let's see what others
think)


-Original Message-
From:
marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces+e.c.apling=btinternet@greenhouse.economics.utah.
edu] On Behalf Of Marv Gandall
Sent: 04 March 2011 12:52 PM
To: e.c.apl...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Protest

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On 2011-03-03, at 9:03 PM, Peggy Dobbins wrote:
> 
> Me too
> peggy
> 
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Néstor Gorojovsky 
wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I strongly protest against W. Lippmann´s being unsubbed for stating
>> bluntly and honestly his point of view.

I don't agree with the Walter-Fred-Nestor line on Libya, but their position
is an arguable one and I don't think any or all of them have presented it
provocatively, except to those who are too easily provoked. There was
nothing in Walter's comments which justified his expulsion, and his
persistence in advancing his particular viewpoint is not unique to the list
either.




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Re: [Marxism] PL: Mass Pressure Leads Egyptian Prime Minister to Resign

[Marv Gandall]

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On 2011-03-04, at 4:22 AM, dave x wrote:

> This upsurge also raises serious questions about the viability of the
> campist 'anti-imperialist' approach in general, an approach that has
> dominated much of the hard left since Vietnam. This approach has
> always been flawed, but over time it has lost touch with reality,
> perhaps due to reality continuing to change even as they have not. The
> disjunction with reality is apparent on multiple levels.
> 
> It profoundly misunderstands the nature of imperialism, not realizing
> how imperialism functions as a global system and putting, for example,
> far to much weight on raw military intervention by imperialists but
> not realizing that this is only one tool in the imperialist arsenal,
> often not the preferred one and often not the most effective.

Excellent point. Chavez the anti-imperialist, for example, seems to be placing 
great store in the efforts of the Arab League to mediate the crisis without 
acknowledging that the Arab League is not an anti-imperialist but one mainly 
consisting of proxies for US imperialism in the region. In this case, the 
respective interests of Chavez and the anti-imperialist camp and the 
anti-Ghaddafi forces may well converge around a mediated settlement which 
arranges for the peaceful exit of the discredited tyrant and the formation of a 
new government composed of ruling class figures drawn from the opposition and 
regime who enjoy greater popular legitimacy. This is the outcome the US and its 
allies are seeking, WITHOUT having to resort to military intervention which 
they rightly fear would further destabilize the country and the region.



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Re: [Marxism] Protest

[Michael Karadjis]

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The mainstream over at the Green Left list would probably also disagree 
with Walter's view on this, and similar issues, as much (or perhaps more 
consistently) than the immoderator here, yet he's never been threatened 
with purge and expulsion from there. The immoderator appears to unsub 
due to momentary whim, like a nasty old crank rather than a reasoned 
political decision maker.


- Original Message - 
From: "Marv Gandall" 
I don't agree with the Walter-Fred-Nestor line on Libya, but their 
position is an arguable one and I don't think any or all of them have 
presented it provocatively, except to those who are too easily provoked. 
There was nothing in Walter's comments which justified his expulsion, 
and his persistence in advancing his particular viewpoint is not unique 
to the list either.


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[Marxism] (BN) Wen Jiabao Sees Billionaires When Communists Convene as Wealth Gap Widens

[Red Arnie]

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Bloomberg News, sent from my iPad.
Wen Sees Billionaires in Congress as Gap in Wealth Widens

March 4 (Bloomberg) -- As Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao this week opens the annual 
gathering of the National People’s Congress with a pledge to shrink China’s 
wealth gap, his challenge will be reflected in the makeup of the assembly 
itself.

The richest 70 of the 2,987 members have a combined wealth of 493.1 billion 
yuan ($75.1 billion), and include China’s richest man, Hangzhou Wahaha Group 
Chairman Zong Qinghou, according to the research group Hurun Report. By 
comparison, the wealthiest 70 people in the 535-member U.S. House and Senate, 
who represent a country with about 10 times China’s per-capita income, had a 
maximum combined wealth of $4.8 billion, data from the Washington-based Center 
for Responsive Politics show. 

The presence of billionaires in the Congress, which is the highest state 
legislative body and meets to approve government economic and fiscal plans, is 
one consequence of the Communist Party’s opening to capitalists to join it a 
decade ago. The step now risks hampering efforts to tackle inequality, such as 
higher taxes on upper-income earners, financial disclosures and real- estate 
levies, said Huang Jing of Singapore National University.

“The biggest problem to passage of the property tax is the People’s Congress,” 
said Huang, a professor at the Lee Kuan Yew Center for Public Policy. “How can 
you expect those rich people to represent the interests of people who need 
help?”

Outstripping U.S.

Data compiled by Hurun, a Shanghai-based group that tracks China’s wealthy, 
indicate there are at least 38 NPC delegates with more in assets than the 
wealthiest U.S. Congress member, Representative Darrell Issa of California. 
Issa had maximum wealth of $451.1 million in 2009, according to congressional 
disclosures compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics. Issa’s office 
didn’t respond to an e-mailed request for comment.

The ranks of wealthy in China are swelling as the nation experiences the 
fastest expansion of any major economy, with gross domestic product increasing 
on average about 10 percent annually in the past two decades. The benchmark 
Shanghai Composite Index of stocks climbed 124 percent in local-currency terms 
in the five years through February, compared with a 3.6 percent advance for the 
U.S. Standard & Poor’s 500 Index.

Zong, 65, a Communist Party member whose wealth Hurun puts at $12 billion, told 
reporters in Beijing March 1 he believes higher taxes and extensive 
welfare-benefit programs, such as those in Europe, sap energy from 
entrepreneurs. Nations with those policies will “have problems when all their 
money is spent,” he said.

‘No Jobs’

“Rich people are investing their money, creating more jobs,” Zong said. “If 
rich people all get killed, nobody is going to invest or build factories, there 
will be no jobs.”

Wen, 68, said Feb. 27 that the government would push to narrow a growing wealth 
gap which Credit Suisse Group AG said in an August report was at levels not 
seen outside of Africa. Wen pledged to tackle surging property prices that have 
put home ownership out of the reach of many, control inflation and crack down 
on official corruption.

“We should not only make the cake of social wealth as big as possible, but also 
distribute the cake in a fair way and let everyone enjoy the fruits of reform 
and opening up,” Wen said Feb. 27, according to state-owned Xinhua News Agency. 
Wen’s opening address to the Congress tomorrow, scheduled for 9 a.m. in 
Beijing, is set to detail the government’s latest Five Year Plan for China, 
focused on bolstering domestic demand and household spending.

Rural Incomes

China’s leaders have embraced higher wages as part of their campaign, with all 
31 of China’s provinces and regions likely to increase their minimum wages in 
2011 for the second consecutive year, according to Credit Suisse. Rural incomes 
rose 10.9 percent in 2010 to an average 5,919 yuan, government data show.

Even so, accelerating inflation and rising property prices have undermined 
households’ spending power. Consumer prices have exceeded the government’s 4 
percent target for 2011 in each of the past four months. Slums have emerged in 
the suburbs of cities from Beijing to Guangzhou as migrant workers and cash- 
strapped urban youth seek an affordable place to live.

China’s Gini coefficient, an income-distribution gauge used by economists, has 
climbed to near 0.5 from less than 0.3 a quarter century ago, according to Li 
Shi, professor of economics, School of Economics and Business at Beijing Normal 
University. The measure ranges from 0 to 1, and the 0.4 mark is used as a 
predictor by analysts for social unrest.

Risk 

Re: [Marxism] PL: Mass Pressure Leads Egyptian Prime Minister to Resign

[Rajesh Roy]

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Implicit in the message of this long post is the hope and wish that a series of 
revolutions should now necessarily and compulsorily happen in each country in 
the Middle East.. and that they would be copies of the revolutions in Tunisia 
and Egypt.. and they begin and end within a fixed timeframe.. this is 
definitely 
not a materialistic approach..

The membership pattern of the imperialist camp may have changed, but the head 
of 
the monster still remains the same, the US/Nato combine.. this is the monster 
that is right now raping Iraq and Afghanistan and is now waiting to enter 
Libya.. they are willing to employ brute force.. the scale of devastation 
before 
and after they enter a country is massive.. the integrity of Libya should be 
protected, this is one point both sides of the present stalemate in Libya agree 
on.. Will even the worst of "mad dogs", "dictators", "monsters" ever feel 
ashamed of their deeds in comparison with the deeds of just any one President 
of 
the USA ?


- Original Message 
From: dave x 
To: rajeshcher...@yahoo.co.in
Sent: Fri, 4 March, 2011 2:52:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] PL: Mass Pressure Leads Egyptian Prime Minister to Resign

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It is obvious that Eli S, Walter L, Nestor G, as well as the PSL, WW,
Chavez and Venezuela, and many others who feel and think like them,
compose a significant element on the left as it currently exists. I
think it is useful to have this voice represented in on this list even
if it can also be irritating, wrong and in this situation, objectively
counter-revolutionary. Such is the situation of the left today - weak,
divided, and many of us on the wrong side of history. We were not
prepared for this revolutionary upsurge politically, theoretically or
practically. That is the way things happen sometimes.




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[Marxism] Libya: CIA Agents posing as Surgeons?

[Greg McDonald]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbBJOYxpxc&feature=player_embedded#at=146


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[Marxism] Debating the causes of the crisis

[Ian Aylett]

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Michael Roberts on Dumenil

http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/the-crisis-of-neoliberalism-and-gerard-dumenil/


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Re: [Marxism] PL: Mass Pressure Leads Egyptian Prime Minister to Resign

[dave x]

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It is obvious that Eli S, Walter L, Nestor G, as well as the PSL, WW,
Chavez and Venezuela, and many others who feel and think like them,
compose a significant element on the left as it currently exists. I
think it is useful to have this voice represented in on this list even
if it can also be irritating, wrong and in this situation, objectively
counter-revolutionary. Such is the situation of the left today - weak,
divided, and many of us on the wrong side of history. We were not
prepared for this revolutionary upsurge politically, theoretically or
practically. That is the way things happen sometimes.

This upsurge raises some serious questions. First there is the
question of Venzuela and Chavez. Chavez has created a horrible mess
and done serious damage to the Bolivarian revolution and to the left
in general with his approach to the revolution in Libya and he keeps
digging the hole deeper. Then there are the other Latin American
leaders such as Ortega and Castro.  Perhaps Castro gets a pass as he
is old and largely following Chavez's lead but what does this mean for
the Latin American left? For their revolutions? And for the many who
have followed them, taken them as guides to the future of socialism?

This upsurge also raises serious questions about the viability of the
campist 'anti-imperialist' approach in general, an approach that has
dominated much of the hard left since Vietnam. This approach has
always been flawed, but over time it has lost touch with reality,
perhaps due to reality continuing to change even as they have not. The
disjunction with reality is apparent on multiple levels.

It profoundly misunderstands the nature of imperialism, not realizing
how imperialism functions as a global system and putting, for example,
far to much weight on raw military intervention by imperialists but
not realizing that this is only one tool in the imperialist arsenal,
often not the preferred one and often not the most effective.

It regularly slips into conspiratorial thinking, imagining vast CIA
conspiracies and the like and in the process abandoning all pretense
to materialism and a scientific approach to politics.

It opposes real struggle and real revolution to fake idealized
versions whose conditions will never be met.

It ignores the present, actual slaughter and murder of revolutionists
in order to condemn a hypothetical, future slaughter whose likelihood,
character and extent are all subject to serious doubt.

It defends tired old monsters, insane in their dotage, corruption and
butchery and already given over to the empire, while slandering the
revolutionary workers and youth who are giving their blood to oppose
these tyrants and win their freedom.

It imagines that it should be the primary duty of the tiny fragmented
left in the US to 'oppose' imperialist intervention but thinks that
building worldwide revolutionary solidarity - the real primary task of
communists - is an obnoxious distraction from this. Never mind that
even truly mass demonstrations like we had before the Iraq war were
not sufficient to stop the imperialist war drive and the very notion
that they could was, in fact, an illusion. Never mind that Wisconsin
reveals that many American workers already naturally feel an
instinctive solidarity with the revolutions in the middle east even
while elements of the left are busy violating that solidarity by
defending the monster Gadhafi.

Educating people in the US to understand and oppose the workings of
imperialism can be a slow and painstaking task but these same people
often understand in their bones the right to rebel against injustice.
They secretly wish for it themselves. All the peoples of the world are
now secretly wishing it. That is why this revolution will continue to
spread no matter how 'anti-imperialist' the government it finds itself
opposed to. That is why 'Victory to the Revolution' should not be our
second demand. It should not be one demand among many. It should be
our first and primary demand. All others flow from it.

VICTORY TO THE REVOLUTION & HANDS OFF LIBYA
-dave


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Re: [Marxism] Latin America and the Arab revolution: the bankruptcy of Chavism?

[Midhurst14]

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4th International
Are they still around
Spreading their confusion, pessimism and defeatism
The last redoubt of the ruling class
George Anthony

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Re: [Marxism] Latin America and the Arab revolution: the bankruptcy of Chavism?

[johnedmundson]

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Ataulfo Riera, from the Belgian 4th International is understandably pessimistic
about the stand taken by Castro and Chavez, which has been weak at best.
In the post by Eli of Fidel Castro's latest reflections though, Castro seems to
have shifted a little. He describes the rebels in the following terms:

> No doubt, the faces of young people protesting in Benghazi, men and women,
> with veils and without, expressed real indignation.

Damning with faint praise? Well perhaps, except that he then goes on to quote
University of Benghazi Political Science professor Abeir Imneina saying "There
is also the feeling that this is our revolution and that it is up to us forge
ahead." That doesn't sound like a pro-Gaddafi statement to me.

In relation to the media's coverage of the conflict, he also asks us "Why the
effort to present the rebels as prominent members of society demanding U.S. and
NATO air strikes to kill Libyans?" Clearly he considers that a distortion. Is
this a shift in his position from simple fence-sitting to acknowledging the
genuine nature of the revolution? Clearly he is still obviously preoccupied with
the (real) risk of Western intervention. Whether this is just him running to
catch up or not I don't know, but I sincerely hope it represents a real shift,
and that Chavez moves the same way.
Cheers,
John


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[Marxism] From the archives: foreign forces intervene in Uganda in support of Idi Amin

[Lajany Otum]

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[When Tanzanian forces counter-attacked in response to Idi Amin's  invasion, 
plundering and attempted annexation of the Kagera region of  Tanzania,]
Libya's Muammar al-Gaddafi sent 2,500 troops to aid Amin, equipped with  T-54 
and T-55 tanks, BTR APCs, BM-21 Katyusha MRLs, artillery, MiG-21s,  and a Tu-22 
bomber.[5] However the Libyans soon found themselves on the  front line, while 
Ugandan Army units were using supply trucks to carry  their newly plundered 
wealth in the opposite direction.[6] 

>The Libyan troops were a mix of regular Libyan Army units, People's  Militia, 
>and sub-Saharan Africans of the Islamic Legion, a further force  created by 
>Libya for this type of expeditionary mission.[5] The  Tanzanians, joined by 
>UNLA 
>dissidents, moved north for Kampala but  halted at the vast deep-water swamp 
>north of Lukaya. The Tanzanians  decided to send the 201st Brigade directly 
>across the causeway across  the swamp while the better-quality 208th Brigade 
>skirted the western  edge of the swamp as an alternative in case the causeway 
>was blocked or  destroyed. A planned attack by a brigade-sized Libyan force 
>with 
>fifteen  T-55s, a dozen APCs, and BM-21 MRLs, intended to reach Masaka, 
>instead  
>collided with the Tanzanian force at Lukuya on 10 March and sent the  201st 
>Brigade reeling backwards in disarray. However, a Tanzanian  counter-attack on 
>the night of 11–12 March from two directions,  involving a reorganised 201st 
>Brigade attacking from the south and the  208th Brigade from the north-west, 
>was 
>successful, with many Libyan  units, including the militia, breaking and 
>retreating at a run. Libyan  casualties were reported at 200 plus another 200 
>allied Ugandans.
>
>
>Tanzanian and UNLA forces met little resistance after the Battle of  Lukuya 
>and 
>carried on west toward Kampala, first taking the Entebbe  airfield after some 
>fighting, and then taking Kampala itself on 10 April 1979. Few Ugandan or 
>Libyan 
>units gave much  resistance, and Pollack says the greatest problem for the 
>Tanzanian  troops was their own lack of maps of the city.[5] Amin fled, first 
>to 
>Libya and later to Saudi Arabia. 
>
>
>
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda%E2%80%93Tanzania_War
>
>
[I'm reliably told that, for this intervention on behalf of his fellow  
revolutionary and anti-imperialist firebrand Idi Amin, many Ugandans  remember 
Muammar Qaddafi with fondness, gratitude, and admiration to this  day.]


  

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