subject:"Re\: \[MBZ\] OT License plate Readers"

So will the no right to complain police arrest me for what I write in
this forum?

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 More from our friends at Techdirt:


 https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150127/18110029835/dea-collecting-massive-database-your-driving-habits-secret-using-license-plate-readers.shtml

 Here's something for Randy:


 https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150128/07173529836/spying-sharing-canadas-intelligence-agency-collecting-data-ip-addresses-free-file-sharing-sites.shtml

 I vote in every election and do my best to understand the issues and
 candidates.  I figure you have no right to complain about things if you
 don't participate in the process.

 Dan



  On Jan 28, 2015, at 7:34 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  Roger wrote:
  Now if all of you will call or write your elected officials, at all
 levels, and give them a piece of your mind, it will accomplish nothing...
 
 
  Totally sensible.
  mao
 
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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

I was purposely being silly.  Should have appended a winkie icon to my
post.

Surprisingly, I think there are broad areas of agreement across the
political spectrum on the need to control how big data is collected, used
and destoyed by law enforcement.




On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 No, silly.

 I think this whole situation is such that depending on how you view the
 role of government, you either perceive these actions as protective or
 overreaching.  As I see it, much of what is happening today is a result of
 people trying to control information, for whatever reason.  In some cases
 they abuse this control, and that’s when things get out of hand.

 While I’m all for try to catch bad guys/gals, if that starts to infringe
 on my rights as an individual I have a problem with it.

 The gathering or retention of data is something I personally have a
 problem with, as I think it conflicts with an individual’s right to
 privacy.  Gathering license plate data is a good example.  If there’s a
 reason for doing it, that is, maybe someone is searching for a particular
 individual who is up to no good or alleged to be so, fine.  But once that
 data is collected and searched for the desired person ad results, it should
 be disposed of.

 No matter how stuff like this is viewed, it’s contentious.  I don’t see a
 problem with it being discussed here as long as we’re respectful and play
 nice.  I think civil discourse is a good thing.

 Dan


  On Jan 29, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  So will the no right to complain police arrest me for what I write in
 this forum?
 


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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-29 Thread Dan Penoff via Mercedes

No, silly.

I think this whole situation is such that depending on how you view the role of 
government, you either perceive these actions as protective or overreaching.  
As I see it, much of what is happening today is a result of people trying to 
control information, for whatever reason.  In some cases they abuse this 
control, and that’s when things get out of hand.

While I’m all for try to catch bad guys/gals, if that starts to infringe on my 
rights as an individual I have a problem with it.

The gathering or retention of data is something I personally have a problem 
with, as I think it conflicts with an individual’s right to privacy.  Gathering 
license plate data is a good example.  If there’s a reason for doing it, that 
is, maybe someone is searching for a particular individual who is up to no good 
or alleged to be so, fine.  But once that data is collected and searched for 
the desired person ad results, it should be disposed of.

No matter how stuff like this is viewed, it’s contentious.  I don’t see a 
problem with it being discussed here as long as we’re respectful and play nice. 
 I think civil discourse is a good thing.

Dan


 On Jan 29, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 So will the no right to complain police arrest me for what I write in this 
 forum?
 


___
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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-29 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes

Scroll down to the story with the vid and if you have a few minutes you 
can get some entertainment


http://charlestonthuglife.net/2015/01/a-number-of-updates/

--R


On 1/29/15 12:57 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:

But I'll reiterate my initial point: there is little to be gained by acting
confrontational with police officers in the field (even if they are acting
like fools).

Scott



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-29 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes

Weren't we (well, not me, I wasn't born yet) doing nearly the same thing at the 
same time (minus the killing and gulag of course) with things like the House 
Un-American Activities Committee and Hoover's FBI files on people?
-Curt
  From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 12:13 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

A working example which we free Americans can look to is the files which
still exist, some of which are 70 years old, gathered by the USSR
government by the KGB on soviet citizens. Based on that data collected,
Stalin is reported to have executed or killed by forced labor in Gulag,
some 20 million Russian citizens. Decisions to kill someone or put them to
forced labor and remove them from society were based on information
gathered and kept by government agency workers and citizen reports.

As Americans, who spent billions of tax dollars to defend against the
prime enemy Russia for decades, there is a natural abhorrence and
resistance to such data collection. Logic would indicate that in the Soviet
Communist system, such data was used improperly by our Constitutional
standards.

Yet. it seems America has began to repeat exactly that which we fought
against...

Troubling . certainly to those of us who fought the cold war, which was
not always so cold.

The legal principle that guides all law enforcement, as stated in our
founding documents, is innocent till proven guilty. The burden of proof
rests with the accuser, as a function of law properly applied, even then, a
prosecutor has a duty to present any evidence that may prove innocence
[seemingly ignored presently].

The collection of data, without good cause shown, against an individual,
fails the protections of 4th Amendment... in general terms, and has been
repeatedly found the rule of law by courts of every level.

I agree, civil discourse is much appreciated.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 I was purposely being silly.  Should have appended a winkie icon to my
 post.

 Surprisingly, I think there are broad areas of agreement across the
 political spectrum on the need to control how big data is collected, used
 and destoyed by law enforcement.

 On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  No, silly.

  I think this whole situation is such that depending on how you view the
  role of government, you either perceive these actions as protective or
  overreaching.  As I see it, much of what is happening today is a result
 of
  people trying to control information, for whatever reason.  In some cases
  they abuse this control, and that’s when things get out of hand.

  While I’m all for try to catch bad guys/gals, if that starts to infringe
  on my rights as an individual I have a problem with it.

  The gathering or retention of data is something I personally have a
  problem with, as I think it conflicts with an individual’s right to
  privacy.  Gathering license plate data is a good example.  If there’s a
  reason for doing it, that is, maybe someone is searching for a particular
  individual who is up to no good or alleged to be so, fine.  But once that
  data is collected and searched for the desired person ad results, it
 should
  be disposed of.

  No matter how stuff like this is viewed, it’s contentious.  I don’t see a
  problem with it being discussed here as long as we’re respectful and play
  nice.  I think civil discourse is a good thing.

  Dan

   On Jan 29, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com

  wrote:

   So will the no right to complain police arrest me for what I write in
  this forum?

  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com

  To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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  individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
  has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

I don't know how anyone can get any joy out of watching that sad spectacle.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Scroll down to the story with the vid and if you have a few minutes you
 can get some entertainment

 http://charlestonthuglife.net/2015/01/a-number-of-updates/

 --R


 On 1/29/15 12:57 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:

 But I'll reiterate my initial point: there is little to be gained by
 acting
 confrontational with police officers in the field (even if they are acting
 like fools).

 Scott



 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-29 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes

Just routine stuff around here, in amongst the murders by the young 
(self-described) thugs and other random idiots.


The cops showed remarkable restraint on the woman, and her husband was 
lucky he didn't get ventilated when he ran up on the cops with their 
weapons drawn.


--R


On 1/29/15 4:04 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
I don't know how anyone can get any joy out of watching that sad 
spectacle.


On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


Scroll down to the story with the vid and if you have a few
minutes you can get some entertainment

http://charlestonthuglife.net/2015/01/a-number-of-updates/

--R


On 1/29/15 12:57 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:

But I'll reiterate my initial point: there is little to be
gained by acting
confrontational with police officers in the field (even if
they are acting
like fools).

Scott



___
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those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. 
The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of

each contributor.




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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

Anybody watching The Americans on Bravo?  Great series - well actedl!  It's
about deeply embedded KGB spies, a married couple having adventures in D.C.
during the height of the Cold War.  Suspenseful, taut, authentic.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 I did except the gulags. I meant that the US was keeping an awful lot of
 information on people who, with the benefit of hindsight (well and not
 being ideologues) were really doing nothing wrong. The House Committee
 seems very much of the time with the rat out your friends mentality.
 Stalin must have loved it.
 -Curt
   From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com
  To: 'Curt Raymond' curtlud...@yahoo.com; 'Mercedes Discussion List' 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
  Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 6:10 PM
  Subject: RE: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

 Gulags and black listing aren't even close to being similar.  In one it
 was hard to get a job.  In the other you (and often your family)
 disappeared and usually died painfully.

 Also, in the US it was ideological anti-communist while in the USSR it was
 political and personal.



  -Original Message-
  From: Curt Raymond via Mercedes
  Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 12:22 PM
 
  Weren't we (well, not me, I wasn't born yet) doing nearly the same thing
 at
  the same time (minus the killing and gulag of course) with things like
 the
  House Un-American Activities Committee and Hoover's FBI files on people?
  -Curt
   From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
   To: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com; Mercedes Discussion List
  mercedes@okiebenz.com
   Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 12:13 PM
   Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers
 
  A working example which we free Americans can look to is the files
 which
  still exist, some of which are 70 years old, gathered by the USSR
 government
  by the KGB on soviet citizens. Based on that data collected, Stalin is
 reported
  to have executed or killed by forced labor in Gulag, some 20 million
 Russian
  citizens. Decisions to kill someone or put them to forced labor and
 remove
  them from society were based on information gathered and kept by
  government agency workers and citizen reports.
 
  As Americans, who spent billions of tax dollars to defend against the
 prime
  enemy Russia for decades, there is a natural abhorrence and resistance
 to
  such data collection. Logic would indicate that in the Soviet Communist
  system, such data was used improperly by our Constitutional standards.
 
  Yet. it seems America has began to repeat exactly that which we
 fought
  against...
 
  Troubling . certainly to those of us who fought the cold war, which
 was not
  always so cold.
 
  The legal principle that guides all law enforcement, as stated in our
 founding
  documents, is innocent till proven guilty. The burden of proof rests
 with
  the accuser, as a function of law properly applied, even then, a
 prosecutor
  has a duty to present any evidence that may prove innocence [seemingly
  ignored presently].
 
  The collection of data, without good cause shown, against an individual,
 fails
  the protections of 4th Amendment... in general terms, and has been
  repeatedly found the rule of law by courts of every level.
 
  I agree, civil discourse is much appreciated.
 
 
  On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-29 Thread Scott Ritchey via Mercedes

Gulags and black listing aren't even close to being similar.  In one it was 
hard to get a job.  In the other you (and often your family)  disappeared and 
usually died painfully.  

Also, in the US it was ideological anti-communist while in the USSR it was 
political and personal.  

 -Original Message-
 From: Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 12:22 PM
 
 Weren't we (well, not me, I wasn't born yet) doing nearly the same thing at
 the same time (minus the killing and gulag of course) with things like the
 House Un-American Activities Committee and Hoover's FBI files on people?
 -Curt
   From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
  To: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com; Mercedes Discussion List
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
  Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 12:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers
 
 A working example which we free Americans can look to is the files which
 still exist, some of which are 70 years old, gathered by the USSR government
 by the KGB on soviet citizens. Based on that data collected, Stalin is 
 reported
 to have executed or killed by forced labor in Gulag, some 20 million Russian
 citizens. Decisions to kill someone or put them to forced labor and remove
 them from society were based on information gathered and kept by
 government agency workers and citizen reports.
 
 As Americans, who spent billions of tax dollars to defend against the prime
 enemy Russia for decades, there is a natural abhorrence and resistance to
 such data collection. Logic would indicate that in the Soviet Communist
 system, such data was used improperly by our Constitutional standards.
 
 Yet. it seems America has began to repeat exactly that which we fought
 against...
 
 Troubling . certainly to those of us who fought the cold war, which was 
 not
 always so cold.
 
 The legal principle that guides all law enforcement, as stated in our founding
 documents, is innocent till proven guilty. The burden of proof rests with
 the accuser, as a function of law properly applied, even then, a prosecutor
 has a duty to present any evidence that may prove innocence [seemingly
 ignored presently].
 
 The collection of data, without good cause shown, against an individual, fails
 the protections of 4th Amendment... in general terms, and has been
 repeatedly found the rule of law by courts of every level.
 
 I agree, civil discourse is much appreciated.
 
 
 On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 


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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-29 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes

Andrew wrote:
 Anybody watching The Americans on Bravo?

I liked The Americans a while back when it was on hulu.  Now hulu wants $$.
There ain't nuthin' we can do - processes are too deep and there is
not enuf angst.  We love our color tvs.  We like china prices.  So,
grin.  Or be sure to keep out of the way, which works if you are
careful and diligent.  When we complain about what *they* are doing,
we become inefficient.  Rather, we need to listen to each other tell
how to stay out of their way.  We the people rule.  Vote does not rule
- vote is an indoctrination, a ruse.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

You sound ripe for recruitment by the KGB.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:51 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Andrew wrote:
  Anybody watching The Americans on Bravo?

 I liked The Americans a while back when it was on hulu.  Now hulu wants $$.
 There ain't nuthin' we can do - processes are too deep and there is
 not enuf angst.  We love our color tvs.  We like china prices.  So,
 grin.  Or be sure to keep out of the way, which works if you are
 careful and diligent.  When we complain about what *they* are doing,
 we become inefficient.  Rather, we need to listen to each other tell
 how to stay out of their way.  We the people rule.  Vote does not rule
 - vote is an indoctrination, a ruse.
 mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-29 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes

Andrew wrote:
 You sound ripe for recruitment by the KGB.

KGB is not as kool as ISIS or Snowden.
I am also an originality freak and I like liberty which appears to
draw little attention these days as a reality worth cherishing.
Liberty is We the People and We the People need to be careful against
liberty takers such as DC.  We still have plenty of liberty, if we are
careful.
KGB nor ISIS have anything on what we have, even though we have plenty
about which to complain, but complain wastes resources and
accomplishes nothing and we need to do things.  Let's get busy?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-29 Thread G Mann via Mercedes

KGB no longer exists. It went away with the fall of USSR.

Replaced by another agency.. still rude, but less power.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 You sound ripe for recruitment by the KGB.

 On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:51 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  Andrew wrote:
   Anybody watching The Americans on Bravo?
 
  I liked The Americans a while back when it was on hulu.  Now hulu wants
 $$.
  There ain't nuthin' we can do - processes are too deep and there is
  not enuf angst.  We love our color tvs.  We like china prices.  So,
  grin.  Or be sure to keep out of the way, which works if you are
  careful and diligent.  When we complain about what *they* are doing,
  we become inefficient.  Rather, we need to listen to each other tell
  how to stay out of their way.  We the people rule.  Vote does not rule
  - vote is an indoctrination, a ruse.
  mao
 
  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com
 
  To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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  individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
  has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
 
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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-29 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes

I did except the gulags. I meant that the US was keeping an awful lot of 
information on people who, with the benefit of hindsight (well and not being 
ideologues) were really doing nothing wrong. The House Committee seems very 
much of the time with the rat out your friends mentality. Stalin must have 
loved it.
-Curt
  From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com
 To: 'Curt Raymond' curtlud...@yahoo.com; 'Mercedes Discussion List' 
mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 6:10 PM
 Subject: RE: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

Gulags and black listing aren't even close to being similar.  In one it was 
hard to get a job.  In the other you (and often your family)  disappeared and 
usually died painfully.  

Also, in the US it was ideological anti-communist while in the USSR it was 
political and personal.  

 -Original Message-
 From: Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 12:22 PM

 Weren't we (well, not me, I wasn't born yet) doing nearly the same thing at
 the same time (minus the killing and gulag of course) with things like the
 House Un-American Activities Committee and Hoover's FBI files on people?
 -Curt
      From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
  To: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com; Mercedes Discussion List
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
  Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 12:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

 A working example which we free Americans can look to is the files which
 still exist, some of which are 70 years old, gathered by the USSR government
 by the KGB on soviet citizens. Based on that data collected, Stalin is 
 reported
 to have executed or killed by forced labor in Gulag, some 20 million Russian
 citizens. Decisions to kill someone or put them to forced labor and remove
 them from society were based on information gathered and kept by
 government agency workers and citizen reports.

 As Americans, who spent billions of tax dollars to defend against the prime
 enemy Russia for decades, there is a natural abhorrence and resistance to
 such data collection. Logic would indicate that in the Soviet Communist
 system, such data was used improperly by our Constitutional standards.

 Yet. it seems America has began to repeat exactly that which we fought
 against...

 Troubling . certainly to those of us who fought the cold war, which was 
 not
 always so cold.

 The legal principle that guides all law enforcement, as stated in our founding
 documents, is innocent till proven guilty. The burden of proof rests with
 the accuser, as a function of law properly applied, even then, a prosecutor
 has a duty to present any evidence that may prove innocence [seemingly
 ignored presently].

 The collection of data, without good cause shown, against an individual, fails
 the protections of 4th Amendment... in general terms, and has been
 repeatedly found the rule of law by courts of every level.

 I agree, civil discourse is much appreciated.

 On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Max Dillon via Mercedes

Wilton,

The reason this mass surveillance gets my hackles up is because of the data 
base aspect.

Keeping a record of everywhere I go in my car could be easily abused.  Given 
the Louis Lerner / IRS abuses of conservative non-profits, one can easily 
imagine a day when those in power decide that my past behavior, which was 
perfectly legal, has now become problematic, because my political beliefs don't 
match up.  

We see that Dillon's car was present at the meetings of that terror group 
Boston Tea Party, he has a concealed weapon permit, and now he's driving 
toward the national capital region right after we outlawed old diesel engines 
which are destroying the atmosphere.  Go arrest him!

I would much rather that the police have to work a little harder to catch the 
bad guys than give up any liberty.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston, SC

On January 27, 2015 7:04:48 PM EST, WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:
I can freely drive anywhere in N. America I want to knowing that I'm
doing 
nothing wrong.  My license plate is clearly displayed for the public
and/or 
the po-pos to read anytime they want.  If having my plate read
occasionally 
by the po-pos will help to catch the sorry SOB's around me who may be
(or 
have been) breaking the law, please do.



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Max Dillon via Mercedes

Go get 'em, Donald!
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston, SC

On January 27, 2015 7:03:30 PM EST, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
If you want to read about police problems you can read about the large
numbers of police shootings in Wichita. Since 2010, wichita has had
more fatal police shootings Detroit and Chicago!

Here is an interesting story:

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article2629463.html

I just entered into this case (and three other cases 


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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes

If you want to read about police problems you can read about the 
large numbers of police shootings in Wichita. Since 2010, wichita 
has had more fatal police shootings Detroit and Chicago!


Here is an interesting story:

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article2629463.html

I just entered into this case (and three other cases involving fatal 
shootings by the WPD). The lawyer who started these cases needed 
some help and asked me to help.


Donald H. Snook


popo here stopped a kid they knew was drugged up, and put 15 rounds 
into the unarmed kid, because the kid stopped and backed into the po 
lice car.   Nothing wrong with thataccording to the po lice 
department.


popo in missouri handcuffed a drunk kid on a boat, pulled him into 
the po-boat wrapped a life jacked around the kid, took him out where 
nobody could see, then pushed the kid over and drowned him.  popo had 
no idea how the kid ended up in the water and got drowned.  Yeah, 
right.

(granted the kid was probably a smart-mouth but they should be used to that)

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Donald Snook via Mercedes

It is a real change of pace.  For 10 years I was a firm and we defended the 
City in these police shootings.  Now, I'm on the other side.  It was pretty 
shocking when I learned what the statistics are. 

Don Snook 

-Original Message-
From: Max Dillon [mailto:dillonm...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 2:03 AM
To: Donald Snook; Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

Go get 'em, Donald!
--
Max Dillon
Charleston, SC

On January 27, 2015 7:03:30 PM EST, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
If you want to read about police problems you can read about the large 
numbers of police shootings in Wichita. Since 2010, wichita has had 
more fatal police shootings Detroit and Chicago!

Here is an interesting story:

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article2629463.html

I just entered into this case (and three other cases

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes

Meanwhile, 
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150128/PC16/150129397/1177/charleston-police-officer-who-was-under-investigation-committed-to-psychiatric-hospital


A day or two ago this guy went off on a kid who had a toy gun and the 
mother got pretty upset about it.  I forget the details, the cop was at 
a park with his son or something when his kid found the toy, the cop 
smashed it, the owner kid's mom ended up getting pinned and held down 
while he called other cops to come arrest her.


--R



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes

Isn't the whole point of today's toy guns to make them look REAL?

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Meanwhile, http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150128/PC16/
 150129397/1177/charleston-police-officer-who-was-under-
 investigation-committed-to-psychiatric-hospital

 A day or two ago this guy went off on a kid who had a toy gun and the
 mother got pretty upset about it.  I forget the details, the cop was at a
 park with his son or something when his kid found the toy, the cop smashed
 it, the owner kid's mom ended up getting pinned and held down while he
 called other cops to come arrest her.

 --R



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes

Scott  wrote:
 The fastest way to lose our liberty (and that of our descendants) is to 
 demand the government supply...


Well, we love helicopter government.
See helicopter parents - modern term regarding parenting practices
that are vogue over the past 30 years.  i.e. it is not my fault, it is
their fault.  We the People need less of all things.  Less government
anything.  We the People need less fear and more balls - not unlike we
grew up with, not unlike the WILTON stories... the parts he is not
telling.  We need liberty - liberty to fail but liberty to pick up
where that failure ends, if possible.  Screw up, and we end up dead -
which is probably not as bad as we make it out to be (think darwin).
'm still waiting to find out and probably don't have the balls to try
to approach that edge...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Max Dillon via Mercedes

There's your marker Donald, see if you can beat $1.6M...
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston, SC


On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 What about the guy in New Mexico they suspected of drugs, had him
 illegally x-rayed numerous times, then illegally had a doctor
manually
 search him, then x-rayed some more. Still never found any drugs...
 Wonder what happened in that one?
 Found it, he got $1.6 million

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/16/justice/new-mexico-search-settlement/Turns
 out I was wrong about the details, it was worse...
 -Curt


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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes

Roger wrote:
 Now if all of you will call or write your elected officials, at all levels, 
 and give them a piece of your mind, it will accomplish nothing...


Totally sensible.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread WILTON via Mercedes

I was trying not to say anything.   ;)

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net; Mercedes 
Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

He could have done that then had his and his department's @$$e$ sued for 
false arrest, imprisonment, etc.  That would have been fun to do.

See, the thing is by acting like a dick he deserved no respect, and was 
clearly trolling with no probable cause whatsoever to stop me, a citizen 
going about my business, infringing no laws.  Although an idiot, he was 
smart enough not to push it when he realized he had made an error in 
judgment, especially when Dr. Thomas lit into him over his behavior.

And I think the uniform was not standard-issue cop uniform, it was the 
intimidation paramilitary look the SWAT guys go for.  A wannabe.

--R (who is happy and thankful we had that little disagreement back in the 
late 70s over rights and property and liberty and all that stuff)

In his mind, he HAD probable cause.   You had a TX license plate. That 
makes you suspect in his hamlet.

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread rogerhga--- via Mercedes

To all in this discussion, 
  I'm glad to see so many concerned citizens.  Now if all of you will call 
or write your elected officials, at all levels, and give them a piece of your 
mind, it will get better.  It's nice to discuss on this list, but that 
accomplishes nothing but making you feel better and clutters the archives.  
Contact your elected officials and make your position known.  And if they don't 
act, use term limits the next time and vote them out.  That's what I do, but 
I'm only one person.  Join the outrage! 
Best Wishes, 
Roger 
Roger Hale 
Dinnerware Classics, Inc. 
Monroe, Ga. 
770-267-0850 
www.dinnerwareclassics.com  (new) 
www.southernnightsantiques.com  (antique) 

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes

He could have done that then had his and his department's @$$e$ sued 
for false arrest, imprisonment, etc.  That would have been fun to do.


See, the thing is by acting like a dick he deserved no respect, and 
was clearly trolling with no probable cause whatsoever to stop me, a 
citizen going about my business, infringing no laws.  Although an 
idiot, he was smart enough not to push it when he realized he had 
made an error in judgment, especially when Dr. Thomas lit into him 
over his behavior.


And I think the uniform was not standard-issue cop uniform, it was 
the intimidation paramilitary look the SWAT guys go for.  A wannabe.


--R (who is happy and thankful we had that little disagreement back 
in the late 70s over rights and property and liberty and all that 
stuff)


In his mind, he HAD probable cause.   You had a TX license plate. 
That makes you suspect in his hamlet.


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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes

Yeah geez Bubba didn't shoot the dog nor throw an old lady on the ground nor
nothin. Didn't even toss a flash/bang into an autistic kid's room.
He's so dumb if he'd had to he might even have knocked on the door rather than
busting in.
Those no knocks are the worst. Cops bust in and you defend yourself you get
dead. Even worse when they do it to the wrong house...
-Curt
From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

Max Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

Bubba says shut up, get in the car. Bubba drives for a few minutes, pulls
up at a seemingly random house and up their drive way. Stay in the car!
says Bubba, then he toots the horn once.

Someone peeks out the door, goes back inside, a few minutes later a man comes
out, hang dog, slowly walks up, gets into the back seat of the police car.

George, did you shoot someone last night?!

But...but...how can he do that without waiting for the SWAT team to break the
door down and shoot the dog first?

http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/how-to-serve-a-warrant-1972-versus-today-by-lt-harry-thomas/

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes


Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:

It seldom pays to be confrontational with a cop in the field.  If the cop
feels sufficiently threatened you could end up dead.  If issues need to be
sorted, do it later in a controlled environment, like a police station or
court house.  If you are carrying concealed (legally, of course) follow the
cop's instructions very carefully and slowly.  Why?  Ask Erik Scott:
http://pjmedia.com/blog/gunned-down-in-vegas-what-really-happened-to-erik-scott/


Except Scott never had a chance to do anything but absorb bullets, according to 
his father.


http://www.copblock.org/67750/interview-erik-scott-father-bill-death-threats/


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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes


Max Dillon via Mercedes wrote:


Bubba says shut up, get in the car.  Bubba drives for a few minutes, pulls up at a 
seemingly random house and up their drive way.  Stay in the car!  says Bubba, then he 
toots the horn once.

Someone peeks out the door, goes back inside, a few minutes later a man comes 
out, hang dog, slowly walks up, gets into the back seat of the police car.

George, did you shoot someone last night?!


But...but...how can he do that without waiting for the SWAT team to break the 
door down and shoot the dog first?


http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/how-to-serve-a-warrant-1972-versus-today-by-lt-harry-thomas/

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes





But...but...how can he do that without waiting for the SWAT team to 
break the door down and shoot the dog first?


http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/how-to-serve-a-warrant-1972-versus-today-by-lt-harry-thomas/



That is just sad, but it states the situation quite clearly.

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread G Mann via Mercedes

The issue of personal freedom vs government intrusion is one that becomes
very personal regardless of which side of the issue a person takes.

Those who read and understand the Constitution and Amendments as
protections FROM government intrusions and abuse of power see the current
and somewhat recent [last 40 years or so] increase in the size and control
of government, local, state, and federal, as violations of those
protections.

Those who read and understand the Constitution and Amendments as
protections BY government, take comfort that government has become larger
and more all providing, by their reasoning.

As for myself, I take the stance that when the police arrive at the scene
of violence carrying their gun, chalk to mark the outline of the newly
deceased, and a report clipboard, that I be the one giving the statement,
rather than the one having my outline drawn in chalk. Having exercised my
Right to Self Defense guaranteed by Constitution and Amendments.

For others, it seems they are content to delegate that Right to someone
else, along with all the other Rights, except for freedom of speech...

From my view point, we have seen a somewhat slow erosion of the principles
of the very thing that made America the most successful nation in history.
That principle driven by fierce personal independence, standing on your own
feet, taking responsibility for your own actions, and reaping the rewards
of your own success or your own failure.. Not relying on government to
provide all things.

Then, I come from a generation of men who built businesses, hired people,
fired people who didn't preform the job, paid and promoted those who did,
produced products that worked and lasted, improved those products, and
treated customers with respect. And made profit.

Old School... apparently. Which is why I like and enjoy my made the old
way Mercedes, which were built to that same standard. To last.

[Mercedes content]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:16 AM, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 It is a real change of pace.  For 10 years I was a firm and we defended
 the City in these police shootings.  Now, I'm on the other side.  It was
 pretty shocking when I learned what the statistics are.

 Don Snook

 -Original Message-
 From: Max Dillon [mailto:dillonm...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 2:03 AM
 To: Donald Snook; Mercedes Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

 Go get 'em, Donald!
 --
 Max Dillon
 Charleston, SC

 On January 27, 2015 7:03:30 PM EST, Donald Snook via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 If you want to read about police problems you can read about the large
 numbers of police shootings in Wichita. Since 2010, wichita has had
 more fatal police shootings Detroit and Chicago!
 
 Here is an interesting story:
 
 http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article2629463.html
 
 I just entered into this case (and three other cases



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes

What about the guy in New Mexico they suspected of drugs, had him illegally 
x-rayed numerous times, then illegally had a doctor manually search him, then 
x-rayed some more. Still never found any drugs...
Wonder what happened in that one?
Found it, he got $1.6 million 
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/16/justice/new-mexico-search-settlement/Turns out I 
was wrong about the details, it was worse...
-Curt
 

 From: Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 9:59 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers
   
If you want to read about police problems you can read about the 
large numbers of police shootings in Wichita. Since 2010, wichita 
has had more fatal police shootings Detroit and Chicago!

Here is an interesting story:

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article2629463.html

I just entered into this case (and three other cases involving fatal 
shootings by the WPD). The lawyer who started these cases needed 
some help and asked me to help.

Donald H. Snook

popo here stopped a kid they knew was drugged up, and put 15 rounds 
into the unarmed kid, because the kid stopped and backed into the po 
lice car.  Nothing wrong with thataccording to the po lice 
department.

popo in missouri handcuffed a drunk kid on a boat, pulled him into 
the po-boat wrapped a life jacked around the kid, took him out where 
nobody could see, then pushed the kid over and drowned him.  popo had 
no idea how the kid ended up in the water and got drowned.  Yeah, 
right.
(granted the kid was probably a smart-mouth but they should be used to that)



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes

These are outliers that get all the headlines.  I have never been beat up
by police but each time I wasn't beat up it never made the news.

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 What about the guy in New Mexico they suspected of drugs, had him
 illegally x-rayed numerous times, then illegally had a doctor manually
 search him, then x-rayed some more. Still never found any drugs...
 Wonder what happened in that one?
 Found it, he got $1.6 million
 http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/16/justice/new-mexico-search-settlement/Turns
 out I was wrong about the details, it was worse...
 -Curt


  From: Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
  To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
  Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 9:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

 If you want to read about police problems you can read about the
 large numbers of police shootings in Wichita. Since 2010, wichita
 has had more fatal police shootings Detroit and Chicago!
 
 Here is an interesting story:
 
 http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article2629463.html
 
 I just entered into this case (and three other cases involving fatal
 shootings by the WPD). The lawyer who started these cases needed
 some help and asked me to help.
 
 Donald H. Snook

 popo here stopped a kid they knew was drugged up, and put 15 rounds
 into the unarmed kid, because the kid stopped and backed into the po
 lice car.  Nothing wrong with thataccording to the po lice
 department.

 popo in missouri handcuffed a drunk kid on a boat, pulled him into
 the po-boat wrapped a life jacked around the kid, took him out where
 nobody could see, then pushed the kid over and drowned him.  popo had
 no idea how the kid ended up in the water and got drowned.  Yeah,
 right.
 (granted the kid was probably a smart-mouth but they should be used to
 that)



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 individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
 has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-28 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes

So you're suggesting we can remove protections and the outliers will stay 
outliers?
That makes no sense. If that were true why would you not suggest removing gun 
control? My guns have never killed anybody. My dad has loads of guns that never 
killed anybody (well some of the military stuff was used in war and may have 
killed people), many of my friends have never killed anybody. Those don't make 
headlines either. For every gun used illegally there are thousands that aren't.
-Curt

  From: Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com
 To: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 2:45 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers
   
These are outliers that get all the headlines.  I have never been beat up by 
police but each time I wasn't beat up it never made the news.


On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

What about the guy in New Mexico they suspected of drugs, had him illegally 
x-rayed numerous times, then illegally had a doctor manually search him, then 
x-rayed some more. Still never found any drugs...
Wonder what happened in that one?
Found it, he got $1.6 million 
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/16/justice/new-mexico-search-settlement/Turns out I 
was wrong about the details, it was worse...
-Curt


     From: Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 9:59 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

If you want to read about police problems you can read about the
large numbers of police shootings in Wichita. Since 2010, wichita
has had more fatal police shootings Detroit and Chicago!

Here is an interesting story:

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article2629463.html

I just entered into this case (and three other cases involving fatal
shootings by the WPD). The lawyer who started these cases needed
some help and asked me to help.

Donald H. Snook

popo here stopped a kid they knew was drugged up, and put 15 rounds
into the unarmed kid, because the kid stopped and backed into the po
lice car.  Nothing wrong with thataccording to the po lice
department.

popo in missouri handcuffed a drunk kid on a boat, pulled him into
the po-boat wrapped a life jacked around the kid, took him out where
nobody could see, then pushed the kid over and drowned him.  popo had
no idea how the kid ended up in the water and got drowned.  Yeah,
right.
(granted the kid was probably a smart-mouth but they should be used to that)



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes

Hear, hear!

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 This sort of thing has been common in England for a long while.
 It does go against the grain to have the authorities spying on one all of
 the time but if we want the police to catch the bad guys, we sometimes have
 to give up some of our liberties to help them do it.

 RB


 On 27/01/2015 2:30 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:

 After a recent double murder in nearby Granville County NC on New Year's
 Day, the alleged perps were apprehended in West Virginia after an
 automated
 license plate reader flagged the victim's stolen car.


 See:
 http://abc11.com/news/911-call-shows-desperate-scene-at-
 murder-victims-home/
 462397/


 The alleged perps shot the West VA cops that made the traffic stop and
 the
 original victim's bodies were found in the truck they were diving; so
 there
 is not much doubt about their guilt.


 Getting back to privacy issues, in this case the license reader enabled
 the
 cops to catch two very dangerous criminals; they were apparently on a
 crime
 spree.  On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't appreciate anyone
 (especially the Government) tracking my every move.  Like the NSA. I think
 the answer is in insuring the power is not abused.  That is especially
 hard
 when there is little transparency in government.

 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes


Those who give up liberty for security have neither

Founders of this country understood that concept so well they wrote
protection into the founding documents of Constitution, now known as 4th
Amendment.

Just because it has been abused by the current government, it has not been
revoked. The Right to be secure in your own possessions is given by God,
not government. It can not be infringed. Government does not and has not
been given the power to do it.

Such abuse must be restrained.


Hear, Hear!(ach, you beat me to it   but I added the citation)

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes


Hear, hear!

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


 This sort of thing has been common in England for a long while.
 It does go against the grain to have the authorities spying on one all of
 the time but if we want the police to catch the bad guys, we sometimes have
 to give up some of our liberties to help them do it.


  RB
 


Randy, I don't often disagree with you, but in this case, you speak 
like a Briton, not like an American.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little 
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.   Benjamin 
Franklin Nov 11, 1755.


(Yes, canadians are Americans too)   The canuck legal system (and 
mindset?) is decidedly more British than American.


This spying on citizens if most certainly unconsititutional.  (as 
amended by the Bill of Rights)

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers


On 27/01/2015 3:32 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes wrote:

Hear, hear!

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


 This sort of thing has been common in England for a long while.
 It does go against the grain to have the authorities spying on one 
all of
 the time but if we want the police to catch the bad guys, we 
sometimes have

 to give up some of our liberties to help them do it.


  RB
 


Randy, I don't often disagree with you, but in this case, you speak 
like a Briton, not like an American.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little 
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.   Benjamin 
Franklin Nov 11, 1755.


(Yes, canadians are Americans too)   The canuck legal system (and 
mindset?) is decidedly more British than American.


This spying on citizens if most certainly unconsititutional.  (as 
amended by the Bill of Rights)

___

Well, you may have misunderstood me or I may not have phrased it well.
I said iIt goes against the grain to have cameras all over the place but 
I qualified that a bit because it does help catch the bad guys.

Technology has made that the  cheap way to police many areas.
Not just by the government on the roads but by stores, businesses, and 
homes.There are cameras everywhere anymore.
You hardly dare scratch your  for fear of it showing up on the net - 
especially if you are someone notable.


However, we are being taxed to death to pay for police services and we 
cannot keep up with the demand. The bad guys are everywhere and they are 
getting smarter so we need some manner of getting to them.


I don't know how you balance the two  issues.

You can threaten to penalize the he** out of those who mis-use the 
information gained from this sort of spying but it is difficult to 
prove they did it and over time the government will rely on it more and 
more and decide that it is acceptable to do so. Not a good thing.


However, having said all that in reply to your comments, I will still 
bet you money that you folks south of the border have more spies than we 
do here in Canada.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers


On 27/01/2015 3:17 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

Unreasonable search referenced warrrantless searches of one's home, which
is different from the use of red light or surveillance cameras.


Red light cameras are purely about the money. Just another easy form of 
taxation.


RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread G Mann via Mercedes

Those who give up liberty for security have neither

Founders of this country understood that concept so well they wrote
protection into the founding documents of Constitution, now known as 4th
Amendment.

Just because it has been abused by the current government, it has not been
revoked. The Right to be secure in your own possessions is given by God,
not government. It can not be infringed. Government does not and has not
been given the power to do it.

Such abuse must be restrained.

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 This sort of thing has been common in England for a long while.
 It does go against the grain to have the authorities spying on one all of
 the time but if we want the police to catch the bad guys, we sometimes have
 to give up some of our liberties to help them do it.

 RB


 On 27/01/2015 2:30 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:

 After a recent double murder in nearby Granville County NC on New Year's
 Day, the alleged perps were apprehended in West Virginia after an
 automated
 license plate reader flagged the victim's stolen car.


 See:
 http://abc11.com/news/911-call-shows-desperate-scene-at-
 murder-victims-home/
 462397/


 The alleged perps shot the West VA cops that made the traffic stop and
 the
 original victim's bodies were found in the truck they were diving; so
 there
 is not much doubt about their guilt.


 Getting back to privacy issues, in this case the license reader enabled
 the
 cops to catch two very dangerous criminals; they were apparently on a
 crime
 spree.  On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't appreciate anyone
 (especially the Government) tracking my every move.  Like the NSA. I think
 the answer is in insuring the power is not abused.  That is especially
 hard
 when there is little transparency in government.

 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

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 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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 individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes

Unreasonable search referenced warrrantless searches of one's home, which
is different from the use of red light or surveillance cameras.

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 4:12 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 Those who give up liberty for security have neither

 Founders of this country understood that concept so well they wrote
 protection into the founding documents of Constitution, now known as 4th
 Amendment.

 Just because it has been abused by the current government, it has not been
 revoked. The Right to be secure in your own possessions is given by God,
 not government. It can not be infringed. Government does not and has not
 been given the power to do it.

 Such abuse must be restrained.

 On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

  This sort of thing has been common in England for a long while.
  It does go against the grain to have the authorities spying on one all of
  the time but if we want the police to catch the bad guys, we sometimes
 have
  to give up some of our liberties to help them do it.
 
  RB
 
 
  On 27/01/2015 2:30 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
 
  After a recent double murder in nearby Granville County NC on New Year's
  Day, the alleged perps were apprehended in West Virginia after an
  automated
  license plate reader flagged the victim's stolen car.
 
 
  See:
  http://abc11.com/news/911-call-shows-desperate-scene-at-
  murder-victims-home/
  462397/
 
 
  The alleged perps shot the West VA cops that made the traffic stop and
  the
  original victim's bodies were found in the truck they were diving; so
  there
  is not much doubt about their guilt.
 
 
  Getting back to privacy issues, in this case the license reader enabled
  the
  cops to catch two very dangerous criminals; they were apparently on a
  crime
  spree.  On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't appreciate anyone
  (especially the Government) tracking my every move.  Like the NSA. I
 think
  the answer is in insuring the power is not abused.  That is especially
  hard
  when there is little transparency in government.
 
  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com
 
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  individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
  has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
 
 
 
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  has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
 
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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Craig via Mercedes

On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:12:41 -0700 G Mann via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Those who give up liberty for security have neither

Hear, hear!


 Founders of this country understood that concept so well they wrote
 protection into the founding documents of Constitution, now known as 4th
 Amendment.
 
 Just because it has been abused by the current government, it has not
 been revoked. The Right to be secure in your own possessions is given
 by God, not government. It can not be infringed. Government does not
 and has not been given the power to do it.
 
 Such abuse must be restrained.

Hear, hear, hear!


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers


This sort of thing has been common in England for a long while.
It does go against the grain to have the authorities spying on one all 
of the time but if we want the police to catch the bad guys, we 
sometimes have to give up some of our liberties to help them do it.


RB

On 27/01/2015 2:30 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:

After a recent double murder in nearby Granville County NC on New Year's
Day, the alleged perps were apprehended in West Virginia after an automated
license plate reader flagged the victim's stolen car.

  


See:
http://abc11.com/news/911-call-shows-desperate-scene-at-murder-victims-home/
462397/

  


The alleged perps shot the West VA cops that made the traffic stop and the
original victim's bodies were found in the truck they were diving; so there
is not much doubt about their guilt.

  


Getting back to privacy issues, in this case the license reader enabled the
cops to catch two very dangerous criminals; they were apparently on a crime
spree.  On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't appreciate anyone
(especially the Government) tracking my every move.  Like the NSA. I think
the answer is in insuring the power is not abused.  That is especially hard
when there is little transparency in government.

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes

Some years ago I had driven from Texas to take my son to school at 
Villanova.  My wife and I were going to some hotel not very close to the 
school, in Philadelphia proper, and I get stopped by a cop.  Guy gets 
out, shaved head, black military pants and combat boots, thigh holster, 
swagger, the whole Hitler Youth works.  I look at this guy and had to 
work really hard not to laugh at him for looking like such a parody.  So 
he asks for license and registration, I ask what the issue is.  He tells 
me I had a license plate light out (it was barely dusk, for some reason 
the automatic headlights had come on, so the license plate light comes 
on too).  I had actually noticed that one of the two lights was out, and 
being on the road had not taken the time to replace it, but as long as 
one was working, no problem.  So I say, Oh yeah, the left one is out, I 
have been traveling the last few days and had not have time to replace 
it, but the other one is working so I am not sure what the problem is.  
He sorta looks at me like I am some kind of idiot (or, rather, like he 
is an idiot) and asks, How do you know that?  So I tell him I like to 
take care of my vehicles blahblah, had noticed it at a gas stop a day or 
two ago, and since there was no issue why are you harassing us?  He gets 
all mumbly and says something about people from Texas (probably meaning 
Mexicans) bring dope up there so he was making sure I wasn't a doper or 
something.  At this point my wife goes off on him, asking how many 
dopers with Villanova stickers on their newish Suburbans bring dope to 
Philadelphia, and I am looking at the guy with pity.  He kinda mumbled 
something and she goes on him more about harassing us, no valid reason 
to stop us, nice welcome y'all got here, and at that point he sorta 
apologizes and says for us to have a safe drive home or something.  What 
an idiot.


--R

On 1/27/15 5:25 PM, Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes wrote:

They're here, and not going away.  If they are used for catching dangerous
felons or terrorists, then fine.  If they are misused, like the fishing
expedition in MD to harass a citizen because he is a CCW license holder in
another state, then sue the crap out of them; have those who made the
decision to do that fired.

IMO people driving on public roads do not have the expectation of privacy
with regard to their number plates.  But mere suspicion is not grounds for a
vehicle stop and search.

Greg



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

I would suggest you are lucky he did not haul you in and detain you for 
a bit just to show you he could do so.


Be nice to the cops. They don't (at least at the patrol car level) get 
to choose what the uniform looks like.
He was just doing his job. He saw you, had a basic excuse to check you 
out so he did. You didn't appear drunk or especially nervous etc, so he 
let you go.


Be happy that they are out there and willing to pull over drug dealers 
and other low life and put their neck on the line in order to do so for 
your benefit.


RB

On 27/01/2015 4:46 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes wrote:
Some years ago I had driven from Texas to take my son to school at 
Villanova.  My wife and I were going to some hotel not very close to 
the school, in Philadelphia proper, and I get stopped by a cop.  Guy 
gets out, shaved head, black military pants and combat boots, thigh 
holster, swagger, the whole Hitler Youth works.  I look at this guy 
and had to work really hard not to laugh at him for looking like such 
a parody.  So he asks for license and registration, I ask what the 
issue is.  He tells me I had a license plate light out (it was barely 
dusk, for some reason the automatic headlights had come on, so the 
license plate light comes on too).  I had actually noticed that one of 
the two lights was out, and being on the road had not taken the time 
to replace it, but as long as one was working, no problem.  So I say, 
Oh yeah, the left one is out, I have been traveling the last few days 
and had not have time to replace it, but the other one is working so I 
am not sure what the problem is.  He sorta looks at me like I am some 
kind of idiot (or, rather, like he is an idiot) and asks, How do you 
know that?  So I tell him I like to take care of my vehicles 
blahblah, had noticed it at a gas stop a day or two ago, and since 
there was no issue why are you harassing us?  He gets all mumbly and 
says something about people from Texas (probably meaning Mexicans) 
bring dope up there so he was making sure I wasn't a doper or 
something.  At this point my wife goes off on him, asking how many 
dopers with Villanova stickers on their newish Suburbans bring dope to 
Philadelphia, and I am looking at the guy with pity.  He kinda mumbled 
something and she goes on him more about harassing us, no valid reason 
to stop us, nice welcome y'all got here, and at that point he sorta 
apologizes and says for us to have a safe drive home or something.  
What an idiot.


--R

On 1/27/15 5:25 PM, Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes wrote:
They're here, and not going away.  If they are used for catching 
dangerous

felons or terrorists, then fine.  If they are misused, like the fishing
expedition in MD to harass a citizen because he is a CCW license 
holder in

another state, then sue the crap out of them; have those who made the
decision to do that fired.

IMO people driving on public roads do not have the expectation of 
privacy
with regard to their number plates.  But mere suspicion is not 
grounds for a

vehicle stop and search.

Greg



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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread WILTON via Mercedes

I can freely drive anywhere in N. America I want to knowing that I'm doing 
nothing wrong.  My license plate is clearly displayed for the public and/or 
the po-pos to read anytime they want.  If having my plate read occasionally 
by the po-pos will help to catch the sorry SOB's around me who may be (or 
have been) breaking the law, please do.


BTW, don't you think that, whenever a po-po comes up behind you, he's/she's 
already reading your plate?


That reminds me:  One Saturday afternoon in 1958, I was returning home to 
Lincoln, NE, from classes at the University of Omaha.  En route, I met a NE 
highway patrolman, who immediately turned around and came back rushing up 
behind me until he noticed that my plate on the rear was labeled, North 
Carolina.  NE required a plate on front and rear; NC required only the rear 
one; seeing none on the front as he was meeting me, he thought he had one. 
Immediately upon seeing the NC plate, he turned around and continued on his 
way, as did I without ever changing pace.


Wilton
-
 Original Message - 
From: Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers



Hear, hear!


On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


 This sort of thing has been common in England for a long while.
 It does go against the grain to have the authorities spying on one all 
of
 the time but if we want the police to catch the bad guys, we sometimes 
have

 to give up some of our liberties to help them do it.


  RB
 


Randy, I don't often disagree with you, but in this case, you speak like a 
Briton, not like an American.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary 
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.   Benjamin Franklin Nov 11, 
1755.


(Yes, canadians are Americans too)   The canuck legal system (and 
mindset?) is decidedly more British than American.


This spying on citizens if most certainly unconsititutional.  (as amended 
by the Bill of Rights)

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

Part of it is we need to re-define who are bad guys. The US puts more people 
in prison than anywhere else on the planet both by strict numbers and % of 
population. Many of those are non-violent drug offenders. Why do we put a kid 
who had an ounce of dope in jail? Once we do that the chance of him going in 
and out of jail the rest of his life skyrockets and the chance of him being a 
normal productive member of society plummets. If he's black and gets caught 
with weed he's going to jail, if he's white the cop will confiscate the weed 
and probably let him go. This is proven statistically and dammed hard to argue 
against.
Colorado and Washington have made the first step, crime is down, taxes are up, 
its working well. Other states have de-criminalized it and crime has also 
fallen. The fact is that dope smokers don't cause crime, alcohol is almost 
certainly a bigger driver of crime than weed.
TV makes you think the world is dangerous. The fact is in North America 
(excepting Mexico) the crime rate is at historically low rates. You're unlikely 
to be robbed, unlikely to be murdered, unlikely to be shot or run over by a 
drunk driver. Our world is for the most part (some inner city hell holes 
excluded) safer than its ever been...
-Curt
  From: Randy Bennell via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers
   
Well, you may have misunderstood me or I may not have phrased it well.
I said iIt goes against the grain to have cameras all over the place but 
I qualified that a bit because it does help catch the bad guys.
Technology has made that the  cheap way to police many areas.
Not just by the government on the roads but by stores, businesses, and 
homes.There are cameras everywhere anymore.
You hardly dare scratch your  for fear of it showing up on the net - 
especially if you are someone notable.

However, we are being taxed to death to pay for police services and we 
cannot keep up with the demand. The bad guys are everywhere and they are 
getting smarter so we need some manner of getting to them.

I don't know how you balance the two  issues.

You can threaten to penalize the he** out of those who mis-use the 
information gained from this sort of spying but it is difficult to 
prove they did it and over time the government will rely on it more and 
more and decide that it is acceptable to do so. Not a good thing.

However, having said all that in reply to your comments, I will still 
bet you money that you folks south of the border have more spies than we 
do here in Canada.



RB

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

So today, if you go to the bank and withdraw $ and tomorrow you put it 
back, then repeat next week you'll get on a watch list. Repeat that often 
enough and your local police department takes the money because you might be 
doing something illegal moving around less than $10,000. Now if you move around 
more than $10k it gets reported to the feds because with that much cash you 
might be buying drugs or something. So they track you for more than $10k and 
they track you for less than $10k and at some point they just steal the money.
What makes you think tracking YOUR EVERY movement  isn't going to be mis-used? 
What happens when they decide you went to the wrong part of town too much and 
that means you forfeit your car? Or you go to Canada too much? Or Canada 
realizes Randy comes to the US too much and he's obviously transporting drugs 
so they put him in the clink for awhile?
You let them go and it'll become a police state. Hitler came to power in quite 
reasonable steps. He made the trains run on time, he brought the country out of 
a terrible depression. Who cares if he broke the unions? People had food and 
clothing and some spare cash, who cares about the Jews and homosexuals. Then it 
all went wrong...
-Curt 


  From: WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 7:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers
   
I can freely drive anywhere in N. America I want to knowing that I'm doing 
nothing wrong.  My license plate is clearly displayed for the public and/or 
the po-pos to read anytime they want.  If having my plate read occasionally 
by the po-pos will help to catch the sorry SOB's around me who may be (or 
have been) breaking the law, please do.

BTW, don't you think that, whenever a po-po comes up behind you, he's/she's 
already reading your plate?

That reminds me:  One Saturday afternoon in 1958, I was returning home to 
Lincoln, NE, from classes at the University of Omaha.  En route, I met a NE 
highway patrolman, who immediately turned around and came back rushing up 
behind me until he noticed that my plate on the rear was labeled, North 
Carolina.  NE required a plate on front and rear; NC required only the rear 
one; seeing none on the front as he was meeting me, he thought he had one. 
Immediately upon seeing the NC plate, he turned around and continued on his 
way, as did I without ever changing pace.

Wilton
  
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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes

RB wrote:
 Technology has made that the  cheap way to police many areas.


Cheap?
Are we back in the tyre thread?
Where's Jaime's warning about putting price and cost at the top of all
concerns? - Jaime?
Leave the cost and price high and we might have better interest in
exploring how it is that finding bad guys can be something a larger
force can produce - citizen force, citizen eyes, citizen
boots-on-ground, citizen sacrifice.  i.e. we have skin in the game.
We the people can do this, or we can pay tax and keep our skin out of
the game and have someone else do this for us.  Choose.  I like we the
people.  This is a related article:
thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/01/26/Downsize-Democracy-For-40-Years/
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

Investigate police overreach including folks who move money around and have 
that money taken by police departments not because they've done something wrong 
but because it looks like they MIGHT have done something wrong. The police 
steal their money and they have to spend thousands more to prove they didn't do 
anything wrong...
Research NYC cops ability to shoot innocent bystanders.
Research cops using traffic cameras to illegally track wives and girlfriends. 
How long will it be until elected officials try to have cameras suppressed when 
they show officials breaking the law? It will happen, just wait.
-Curt

  From: Hans Neureiter via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com; Scott Ritchey 
ritche...@nc.rr.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 7:01 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers
   
If one lives a clean life. Who cares?
Cameras or not.
Bitch_bitchier_bitchiest.

   
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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes

Donald wrote:
 Since 2010, wichita has had more fatal police shootings Detroit and Chicago!


lrn.fm had a recent show where they were on police over reach and
killings - ABQ was #3 in the nation.  I wonder where Witchita is in
that list?
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Mountain Man via Mercedes

Curt wrote:
 The US puts more people in prison than anywhere else on the planet...


And, this is a high dollar earner for investors, so... they lobby for
greater over reach which equals greater funding.  When We the people
can afford sacrifice of our time and treasure and skin, perhaps we can
assist to put fewer minor offenses in to the system.  But when we put
ourselves as audience to these things - yeah, we are not happy.
Selfish? - probably.  Sacrificial? - probably not.  Can it change? -
ya wonder...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes

Actually, Germans and Italians too were interned, although not in numbers as 
large as the Japanese.  The pendulum has swung in the other direction now, to 
the point where no one in power would see the danger that a Major Hassan posed 
to his fellow soldiers.

People in power have...power.  Including LEOs.  And as such, they must know 
there's a line they mustn't cross; and if they DO cross that line they must be 
smacked down.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt Raymond 
via Mercedes
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 3:37 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

Yeah, no.
What happens if they say anybody who sells drugs is a terrorist? Or 
homosexuals? Or Jews?
Oh sure, that can't happen anymore. How long ago was it the Canadian government 
stopped pulling children from indigenous homes and educating them that native 
lifestyles were wrong? Check you calendar on that one, people younger than me...
I was 70 years ago the US locked up a big portion of its citizens (asian folks) 
which was clearly unconstitutional. If it'd really made sense they'd have 
locked up folks of German descent too.
It was Franklin who said Those who are willing to They that can give up 
essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty 
nor safety.” ”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
-Curt
  From: Randy Bennell via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com; Mercedes Discussion List 
mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 3:37 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers
   
This sort of thing has been common in England for a long while.
It does go against the grain to have the authorities spying on one all of the 
time but if we want the police to catch the bad guys, we sometimes have to give 
up some of our liberties to help them do it.

RB

  
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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Donald Snook via Mercedes

If you want to read about police problems you can read about the large numbers 
of police shootings in Wichita. Since 2010, wichita has had more fatal police 
shootings Detroit and Chicago!

Here is an interesting story:

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article2629463.html

I just entered into this case (and three other cases involving fatal shootings 
by the WPD). The lawyer who started these cases needed some help and asked me 
to help.

Donald H. Snook
SNOOK LAW LLC

5020 E. Central Suite A
Wichita, Kansas 67208
Phone:  (316) 512-5608
e-mail:  d...@snooklawllc.commailto:d...@snooklawllc.com

This confidential message may be subject to the attorney-client privilege or 
protected by the attorney work-product doctrine. If you have received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify me.



On Jan 27, 2015, at 4:51 PM, Dan Penoff 
d...@penoff.commailto:d...@penoff.com wrote:

Here's a good example of the abuse of (police) power. and it's right in my 
neighborhood:

http://tbo.com/news/crime/lithia-woman-my-house-was-shot-up-why-has-no-one-been-charged-20150126/?page=1

I would be lawyering up big-time.

Dan



On Jan 27, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.commailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

They're here, and not going away.  If they are used for catching dangerous
felons or terrorists, then fine.  If they are misused, like the fishing
expedition in MD to harass a citizen because he is a CCW license holder in
another state, then sue the crap out of them; have those who made the
decision to do that fired.

IMO people driving on public roads do not have the expectation of privacy
with regard to their number plates.  But mere suspicion is not grounds for a
vehicle stop and search.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Ritchey via Mercedes
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 12:31 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

After a recent double murder in nearby Granville County NC on New Year's
Day, the alleged perps were apprehended in West Virginia after an automated
license plate reader flagged the victim's stolen car.



See:
http://abc11.com/news/911-call-shows-desperate-scene-at-murder-victims-home/
462397/



The alleged perps shot the West VA cops that made the traffic stop and the
original victim's bodies were found in the truck they were diving; so there
is not much doubt about their guilt.



Getting back to privacy issues, in this case the license reader enabled the
cops to catch two very dangerous criminals; they were apparently on a crime
spree.  On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't appreciate anyone
(especially the Government) tracking my every move.  Like the NSA. I think
the answer is in insuring the power is not abused.  That is especially hard
when there is little transparency in government.

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

2015-01-27 Thread Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes

They're here, and not going away.  If they are used for catching dangerous
felons or terrorists, then fine.  If they are misused, like the fishing
expedition in MD to harass a citizen because he is a CCW license holder in
another state, then sue the crap out of them; have those who made the
decision to do that fired.

IMO people driving on public roads do not have the expectation of privacy
with regard to their number plates.  But mere suspicion is not grounds for a
vehicle stop and search.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Ritchey via Mercedes
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 12:31 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers

After a recent double murder in nearby Granville County NC on New Year's
Day, the alleged perps were apprehended in West Virginia after an automated
license plate reader flagged the victim's stolen car.  

 

See:
http://abc11.com/news/911-call-shows-desperate-scene-at-murder-victims-home/
462397/

 

The alleged perps shot the West VA cops that made the traffic stop and the
original victim's bodies were found in the truck they were diving; so there
is not much doubt about their guilt.

 

Getting back to privacy issues, in this case the license reader enabled the
cops to catch two very dangerous criminals; they were apparently on a crime
spree.  On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't appreciate anyone
(especially the Government) tracking my every move.  Like the NSA. I think
the answer is in insuring the power is not abused.  That is especially hard
when there is little transparency in government.

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Re: [MBZ] OT License plate Readers