RE: [Mpls] In Ballot Box: The Coming E-Mail War
Craig Cox wrote: > In Ballot Box: The Coming E-Mail War > McLaughlin campaign manager Tony Scallon responds to charges of > campaign finance irregularities and predicts a flurry of last-minute > charges in mayor's race. > > Go to: <http://www.mplsobserver.com/ballotbox/php> Neither campaign has been that courteous or focused on the issues. I would hope to see less infighting from two members of the same party. I'm now considering voting for an alternative to the candidate that I had originally supported. Honorable and positive campaigning has to start somewhere and if not at the municipal level than I don't know where else. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Most drug arrests are local residents
Mark Wilde wrote: > Now, Allan reminded me that one statistic does not a > case make, but my point still stands: The majority of > drugs bought and sold in Minneapolis are by people who > live in Minneapolis. This is an incorrect conclusion. Truly, the only conclusion you can draw is that the majority of people ARRESTED for drugs in Minneapolis identify their city of residence as Minneapolis. There are still a lot of "ifs" here. Most importantly, I would like to point out that it might be that the majority of those ARRESTED are Blacks who claim to live in Minneapolis and those not arrested are suburban Whites. I'm just trying to keep this discussion on an even keel. Personally, I think this issue is not particularly relevant to the solution. If you want to blame somebody for intercity drug problems blame our government, not the buyers or the sellers. It's the government that has created a marketplace for "illegal" drugs. > A Star Tribune article this morning backs up my point > as well. 31% of boys and 17% of girls in 12th grade > in Minneapolis public school report being sold, given > or offered illegal drugs at school. This statistic has no causal relevance to the question of the residence of drug buyers at all. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Most drug arrests are local residents
Michael Atherton wrote: > Most importantly, I would like to point out that it might > be that the majority of those ARRESTED are Blacks who claim > to live in Minneapolis and those not arrested are suburban > Whites. Also, keep in mind that only a fool would give an out-of-state address and open themselves up to Federal investigation and charges of interstate distribution. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Call Pawlenty re: conceal-carry and Nye's
David Brady wrote: > I believe the man wasn't carrying his gun on him it was > in his car so I don't see how the law has anything to > do with it? Anyone can carry a gun in there car license or > no license. Not only can anyone carry a gun in their car, anyone can carry a gun on their person. Do people really believe that criminals (or others) don't carry guns when feel the need to? I knew several people in L.A. who always carried guns regardless of whether they had licenses or not. I don't think the gun law has any impact whatsoever on whether criminals carry guns. And in the case of the bouncer who was shot, whether the killer had a license or not is most likely irrelevant. I sure you could find many cases of bouncers being killed by unlicensed guns. David Gadberry wrote: > If you are in a situation where deadly force might be required to > protect yourself or a loved one do you actually think that > the police will be around to deal with the situation??? > Of course not - the police can't (and shouldn't) be everywhere. The probability of the average citizen using a gun to protect themselves from criminal assault is about the same as winning the lottery. The probability of being killed by someone with a license to carry one is even smaller. This all breaks down to whether you "feel" carrying guns is a good idea or not. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Smoking and Carts
Tim Bonham wrote: > Yes, but even if the smell of hotdogs bothers you, it is NOT > known to cause cancer in those who happen to smell it. > > Unlike secondhand smoke, which IS a proven cancer-causing agent in > non-smokers who happen to breath it. > > A real big difference there. Motor vehicles are known to cause permanent and fatal injuries to secondhand drivers and even innocent pedestrians. Do you drive? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Smoking and Carts
Mark Snyder wrote: > I don't know whether Tim Bonham drives and I'm not sure why > it matters, but it seems to me that the motor vehicle analogy > would serve as an argument for a smoking ban in bars/restaurants > rather than against it. > We recognize the dangers that operating a motor vehicle can > pose, so we regulate it. You cannot just drive anywhere or > any way you please. We have traffic rules and other restrictions > in place that are (theoretically) designed to reduce the hazards > posed by operating motor vehicles. > > Why should smoking cigarettes be any different? If I were to smoke in an enclosed space there is a certain probability (as yet to be convincingly determined) that it might cause you some injury. Although I knowingly accept this risk to you, you have voluntary entered our shared space with full knowledge of the risk. When you drive there is a certain probability (actually better established) that you may cause me some injury. I can even eliminate my responsibility for putting you at any risk by using public transportation and still be injured by your vehicle simply by walking on the street (at possibly a higher probability than the risk from secondhand smoke). My question is: Why are anti-smoking advocates so worried about protecting people from a risk that they knowingly take, when at the same time they are willing to put lives at risk, possibly at an even higher probability, by driving? This is all rhetorical anyway, because we already know (and ignore) that there is a solution that reduces the risk of secondhand smoke in bars and restaurants to close to zero. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Employment and Race Correction
Andy Driscoll wrote: > Once again, you're not reading. This was a legitimate > testing methodology, the same as used by fair housing > outlets funded by the federal government. Testing sends > a mix of races and ethnic "minorities" into the marketplace to > test for discrimination. This is empirically and > statistically sound. Four men filing 350 separate jobs > applications equals 1,400 application samples in one city. > National polling considered statistically sound employ far > fewer samples - often between 850 and 1,200 respondents out > of 300 million to measure public opinion (a much less concrete > measurement) on political candidates and issues. > > Not only does the data suggest what we already know, it is > significant in its impact for the ratio between the samples > size and the population it represents. > > I would suggest you study your statistics a bit better > before adjudging such data as less reliable than you likely > would a far less representative poll. Could someone please cite the original journal reference for this study? Without knowing the design, methods, and type of analysis there's no way of evaluating whether these figures are reliable, valid, or generalizable. Given the information provided so far I can think of any number of factors that might have needed to be controled for and could have invalidated the results. We need to look at the origional methodlogy, not the secondary citation. Also, what is important here is not that discrimination exists (most us of probably agree that it does). What we need to know is what factors can be modified to help people find jobs. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Employment and Race Correction
Andy Driscoll wrote: > If the results of this testing are as Dane related them, I, > for one, have no reason to believe otherwise, these are clear > cases of employment discrimination and subject to legal action. > This is not a study, or a survey or a poll< it's a testing, > something civil rights monitors in the Twin Cities as well > as Milwaukee and other urban centers do all the time (and > have done for 50 years) because it's often the only way to identify > companies (as with realtors and landlords in the housing > arena) willing to weed out potential employees based on their color. If the Black applicants all fail to communicate in standard English and instead use slang, then the differences in hiring rates are not discriminatory based on race (as long as the jobs require communication skills). Percentage differences do not constitute legal discrimination in and of themselves. I don't believe that anyone has shown that all factors other than race were accounted for and I'm still waiting for the origional reference for this "testing." > And that's the point: that people who care about these > issues will test the marketplace for sign of racial > discrimination in violation of local and state human right > laws in preparation for official complaints and, if > necessary, punishment. The ultimate goal is to change behaviors > or be penalized for breaking the law. Changing hiring practices to > make them more color-blind (or gender-blind, etc.) is the ultimate > goal because what we really want are jobs for traditionally excluded > peoples based on everything but their qualifications to do the work > required. This is old regressive rhetoric that focuses only on the employers. We haven't been provided with enough information to determine whether the differences in hiring rates are due to the skill sets of the applicants or the discriminatory behavior of the employers. I'm perfectly willing to accept that the actions of the employers are discriminatory, if more evidence is forthcoming. > If the results of this testing are as Dane related them, I, > for one, have no reason to believe otherwise..." If you want to think critically about this issue then you will have a reason to consider alternative explanations and seek more complete data. If on the other hand, you are only interested in confirming your own prejudices, then you indeed have "no reason to believe otherwise." Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Strib on supes: Peebles' job on line, Gurban's a reform focus
Laura wrote: > It will be a lesson learned for Minneapolis. Time to wake up and pay > attention to authentic leadership style. Which type of leadership style is most effective is context dependent. Effective is the key word here. If your criterion is making teachers happy then Peebles might not be the right person. I'd be more interested in seeing how much test scores improve, whether there is a narrowing in the acheivement gap, and whether Peebles is able to correct some of the fundamental injustices in the system. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Why Peebles needs to shape up or ship out
Lynnell Mickelsen wrote: > Here's a letter I sent to School Board members which says > what my concerns are. For what it's worth. I don't think that it is worth very much. There doesn't appear to be much in this letter other than gossip, shaming, and rumor. If you want to make a case against Dr. Peebles (assuming she's now earned her Doctorate), then you should include some numbers such as the number of staff that have left (over and above the baseline changeover rate) and the lack of progress in the schools that she was supervising. If you can't do that, then I'll side with the Aferican Americans who are questioning why she's being harassed after only a year on the job. The School Board hired her with full knowledge of her management style. Maybe this whole thing is a setup so they can say, "See, we hired a Black person, but it didn't work out. Now we need to get Jennings back." ;-) Carol Johnson was paid a lot of money to put on a happy face and do nothing. Peebles doesn't put on a happy face and is trying to do something, yet doesn't seem to have done much of anything, but she's shaking the tree enough to upset the White folks and the union, which in turn rattles the Board, which in turn waves a big stick. Meanwhile the Black folks play the race card to keep the superintendent's the correct color, while being blind to the lack of advancement. Personally, if I was Dr. Peebles I'd stay the course (assuming that she believes it's best) and then take the money and run after the Board fires her (which was foolish to write in such a generous termination clause). There'll always be another school district that will hire her. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Update on Dr. Peebles and community support
Robert Halfhill wrote: > The bottom line on the furor over Dr. Peebles is that she > has managed to raise test scores in some of the worst > schools in Minneapolis. Questions about whether she is > "autocratic" or a "top down" manager pale in comparison to > the raised test scores. We have been reading about the > gravity of this problem of poor minority test scores for > years and, now when someone comes along who manages to raise > them for the first time, those [EMAIL PROTECTED] on the School Board > try to fire her because she has not deferred to their tender egos. > The voters should decide what is most important -- > bruised egos or higher test scores. > ADDENDUM: Comment to Doug Mann. > You say she has NOT raised the test score. According to > what I read in the STAR TRIBUNE, the first test scores did > show an increase. If you can document that test score have > not increased, I will have to reconsider my position. The problem is knowing exactly what has raised test scores. NCLB was designed and implemented to raise test scores, so we shouldn't be surprised if scores rise. The question should be whether the scores at schools where Dr. Peebles was directly involved improved over and above those at similar schools in the Metro. I haven't seen that analysis yet. If such an analysis does show a significant difference, then the Board's concern about "style" should be ignored. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Dr. Peebles
Chuck Holtman wrote: > Comments from the sidelines: It's not really the sidelines considering that Pratt Elementary was save on Dr. Peebles watch. > 1. Let's not lose sight of the fact that "test scores" do > not measure whether a school system is successful. They are > used as a measurement because many believe outcome measures > are needed and therefore you need to create something that > you can measure and because, now, the feds require it (in my > view, the intent of NCLB is to divert public funds, take > away time from learning and further weaken public education; > I don't have Mr. Atherton's research knowledge, I just have > my knowledge of the administration's agenda and of how > disruptive NCLB and similar testing has been to learning in > my daughter's school). We can talk about "test scores" as > shorthand, but let's remember there's a broader view. Although testing scores do not necessarily measure whether a school system is successful, they are a very reliable and strong indicator. I would also like to point out that it is not NCLB that makes testing disruptive. There was testing before NCLB and the law itself only requires that the states do testing at most grade levels and include all students. The type of test and testing standards are left up to individual states. The fact that the District hasn't modified and consolidated their tests to conform with NCLB is their responsibility. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Dr. Peebles
> Michael Atherton writes: > > > The fact that the District hasn't > > modified and consolidated their tests to conform > > with NCLB is their responsibility. > David Brauer wrote: > > Can you explain more about this? "NCLB requires testing of all students in grades 3-8, annually, in reading and math by 2005. Testing in science, in one grade within each of three grade levels 3-5, 6-9, and 10-12, is also required by 2008." http://www.dieringer.wednet.edu/district/about/nclbfactsheet.html The important thing to note is that that NCLB does not require more than one, or possibly two, days of testing a year. I think that's very reasonable and an absolute necessity for the accountability and effectiveness of the public schools. Pre-Kindergarten screening is required for all Minnesota school districts by state law; that's the first test. Here's a link that outlines the testing for the MPS for 2004-2005. While you read this keep in mind that NCLB currently only requires reading and math tests in grades 3-8. All the other tests are the District's idea and have nothing to do with NCLB, funny how parents have come to believe that it is due to NCLB. :-| http://rea.mpls.k12.mn.us/sites/770fc804-a9f8-4beb-8663-61ad5e99b91e/uploads/All_Testing_Dates_2004-05.pdf Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Dr. Peebles
Michael Atherton wrote: > All the other tests are the District's > idea ... Opps, sorry! I should have said the District's or the State's idea. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Dr. Peebles
Dorian Eder wrote: > According to the MN Dept of Education Website, the MN SOLOM, Basic > Skills Test and MN Comprehensive Assessmnets are all required by the > state, both to comply with NCLB and our own state policy. It's my > understanding that MPS also requires the NALT tests, and I have been > told that they do this because it provides the best measure > of progress among students and cohorts, not just a 'snapshot' of what > the kids knew on testing day. So, you are right in that the NALT test is > required in addition to the others, but I think it's the only one. Can > someone from the school board or who works in assessment at MSP answer > this more fully? The type, frequency, and quality of testing is another discussion. My point was that NCLB is not the only force motivating the testing of students in the public schools. Obviously, the State and the District see value in monitoring the progress of students. I would agree with many parents that testing should be not be too intrusive, but irrationally disparaging testing ignores its benefits. There are many people who would prefer that the performance of the schools not be public knowledge. The major strategy of NCLB is to provide public information which will then motivate educational reform (and it is). I think that it is the responsibility of the MPS to work with the State to try and reduce the number of required tests. It's my suspicion that the MPS use additional tests just for CYA. NCLB left the details of test design up to the States (a big mistake in my opinion), so the content and type of test is flexible. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Dr. Peebles
, Chuck Holtman's original point was that federal > requirements have added to the testing burden. If you add the > friendly amendment to read "state and feds," he seems to be > pretty right on. It IS fair to say Minneapolis should drop > NALT, but it appears to be the tail on this dog - and not a > useless tail at that. I think that the responsibility is entirely at the State and District levels. Other than requiring additional grades and making the tests mandatory for all students, the Feds haven't required much more testing than what the State and the District weren't already doing or planning to do. Ann Berget wrote: > ...We had already restored the curriculum and instruction department > several years before, so with the best of intentions, we put together > a very focused summer school program and invited/urged low-performing > students to attend. As Ross Taylor said, "They stayed away in droves." > After a couple of years of struggling with that we wanted to know why > fewer than 4 out of 10 low-performing students were participating. > The responses from families tended to be things like "He's got more > important things to do", or "It interferes with our summer plans". > The answers we got were not encouraging. This begs the question, "Why didn't you make the summer programs mandatory?" That's the current strategy, rather than making student repeat the same grade in the same classroom without tutoring, schools are requiring mandatory tutorial programs before students go on to the next grade. This has been a direct result of NCLB. If you thought that the answer was focused summer programs that students didn't attend, why did the MPS continue to move students onto the next grade even though they hadn't mastered basic skills? As far as I know the MPS are still practicing social promotion! Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Superintendent Peebles
Mohamed Jibrell wrote: > Superintendent Peebles cannot advance the cause of minority > students in the school system by alienating the teachers > who are dedicated to educating these very students that she > claims to champion. I think that this opinion ignores the fact that teachers are as much a part of the problem as they are a part of the solution. Dedication to ineffective and discriminatory practices is obstructive not progressive. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Superintendent Peebles
Laura Waterman Wittstock wrote: > The inferred education contract is between the parent and > the teacher in the early years and between the student and > the teachers in the later years. That's where the learning > happens. We owe it to our kids to make good faith efforts > and respect our partners in the schools unless one of the > sides fails. > > Candidate for Minneapolis Library Board of Trustees If we continue to elect candidates like Ms. Waterman Wittstock we never see improvement in our education system. Not only does she spread propaganda and misinformation about NCLB, she also perpetuates a common myth that teachers themselves has no responsibility for the system they perpetuate. Teachers have failed in their responsibilities to our students and our society in two fundamental ways. First, they continue to place their personal self-interests over the needs of students by perpetuating a seniority system that assigns the least experienced teachers to the students in the greatest need and secondly, they continue to use instructional methods and practices that rely on unexamined and unverified philosophical assumptions. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Superintendent Peebles
Buzzy Bohn wrote: > The whole notion that senior teachers don't teach in the > schools with the most need, just isn't true. If you look at > schools like Bethune, North Star, Franklin, Loring and other > Northside schools you will find many teachers with a lot of > seniority. I myself have 19 years seniority as an educational > assisstant and have always choosen to work in the schools of my > Northside community. The lack of depth of this analysis is one reason I am fearful of enrolling my children in the public schools and it's typical of how many people in the public schools react only with denial rather than critical reevaluation. The claim is not that there are NO senior teachers in schools dominated by minority students. The claim is that these schools have a disproportionate percentage of novice teachers. If I recall correctly, the Tribune already did a story about this problem. When discussing this type of issues it is important to look at the numbers. Perhaps someone from the MPS can provide us with a breakdown by school or by race matched with years of teaching experience? Don't hold your breath. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Teacher experience,student poverty: The Numbers!
Note: This is a rough analysis. I have not double checked the data entry or the computations. The selection of elementary schools is a biased (non-random) sample. This analysis should also really be done by numbers of students, not percentages. However, what this analysis does imply is that a more accurate and detailed study is called for. For those of you who don't understand correlation. An "R" shows the strength of relationship with a number between 0 and 1. 0 indicates no relationship, 1 a perfect relationship (whenever one thing occurs so does the other). A negative R indicates that as one thing goes up, the other goes down (e.g., the larger the percentage of Black students, the smaller the percentage of teachers with more than 10 years of experience). The important thing to notice is that at every level schools with higher percentages of Black students appear to have fewer experienced teachers and schools with higher percentages of White students appear to have more. In a perfect world we would expect to see no relationship between race and teacher experience. I had expected to see much smaller correlations, ranging from 0 to 3. The fact that these are much higher should be enough to initiate a city wide debate on this issue. If this data is not formatted let me know and I'll send you a copy of the spreadsheet. Note: For the statistically savvy, I think I should have used an "r", but "R" is more readable. Please feel free to note errors and offer corrections, but I don't think that there's anything big enough to invalidate the implication that students in the most need of good teaching in Minneapolis, don't get it (if good teaching can be measured by years of experience!). On a personal note, if I was the parent of a Black student I'd be really really angry. And so much for the "It's the Parents" argument. We were discussing the responsibility of teachers anyway. Why don't we try to stick to that topic? And, for all of my neighbors in Prospect Park who don't have a clue why I thought that Pratt Elementary should be a Charter school that would have been open to everyone, this is why. Talk about social justice! Michael Atherton Prospect Park Drawn from the DOE website: WhiteBlack Years of Exp Students Students<3 >10 District27.3%42.5% 8.0%56.0% W. HARRY DAVIS 1.3%54.0% 6.0%21.0% R(Black,>10)= -0.37 HALL2.5%75.3% 4.0%24.0% R(White,>10)= 0.55 JORDAN PARK 2.9%59.6% 8.0%24.0% NELLIE STONE2.5%58.5% 8.0%31.0% GREEN CENTRAL PARK 2.7%37.1% 2.0%42.0% PHILLIPS2.9%16.7% 2.0%51.0% LYNDALE 10.2% 60.5% 3.0%52.0% BURROUGHS 71.3% 4.0%0.0%56.0% LORING 29.0% 45.3% 4.0%56.0% LINCOLN EL. 1.8%71.3% 6.0%58.0% NORTH STAR 3.5%74.7% 2.0%59.0% LAKE HARRIET UPPER 82.4% 8.6%0.0%62.0% ARMATAGE58.3% 24.2% 0.0%65.0% KENNY 52.7% 27.3% 7.0%68.0% BETHUNE 0.0%72.5% 6.0%69.0% LAKE HARRIET LOWER 85.5% 3.9%0.0%76.0% PILLSBURY EL32.9% 46.4% 0.0%89.0% FRANKLIN MID27.3% 75.1% 13.0% 29.0% R(Black,>10)= -0.79 OLSON MID 12.5% 57.0% 14.0% 32.0% R(White,>10)= 0.57 ANTHONY MID 50.2% 38.4% 0.0%37.0% FOLWELL MID 12.3% 39.8% 2.0%40.0% NORTHEAST MID 35.6% 36.5% 8.0%44.0% Field Community 56.1% 26.6% 8.0%47.0% SANFORD MID 55.0% 33.0% 3.0%50.0% ANWATIN MID 29.7% 49.5% 7.0%47.0% NORTH 3.4%72.3% 9.0%39.0% R(Black,>10)= -0.49 HENRY SR. 15.5% 49.7% 9.0%27.0% R(White,>10)= 0.67 ROOSEVELT SR. 19.1% 50.1% 7.0%46.0% EDISON SR.
RE: [Mpls] Teacher experience,student poverty: The Numbers!
Dan McGuire wrote: > Is correlation and cause the same thing? In other words, > when that more accurate and detailed study gets done, it > would be useful to establish if the more experienced teachers > cause the racial differences or if the racial differences cause > the more experienced teachers to move. The same kind of cause > and effect analysis could benefit the discussion about the > achievement gap - do more experienced teachers lessen the gap, > or does the lesser gap attract more experienced teachers? My > unscientific observation would be that it's some of both. > And then the question is, What changes should be made and > how should they be made? > > And when we discover the answer to these questions we can > call it the Minneapolis Model and spread the good news all > over the planet, via e-democracy, of course. I'm trying not to get my street dander up here, but in a personal sense who gives a flying patuidy what causes more experienced teachers to avoid teaching Black students? The result is a social injustice that each teacher should hold themselves individually accountable for. From a Black parent's perspective (speaking rhetorically) why would I care what causes teachers to avoid providing a quality education for my child? Maybe it's because they're racist or maybe they just what their classrooms to be more "pleasant." I don't care, I just want my child to have the same educational opportunities as White kids. So I'd either try to get them into a "White" school, or move them to a charter. Do people really need to know what specific changes occur in DNA before they quit smoking? So okay, from an organizational and management perspective it would be useful to know why there are smaller percentages of experienced teachers educating Black students, but that doesn't relieve the Minneapolis Public Schools or the teachers' union from their responsibility that their services are qualitatively different for students of different races. Robert P. Goldman writes: > The question is, "what should we do about this?" I've heard a bunch > of suggestions that boil down to "force more experienced teachers into > high-poverty schools." I would prefer not to do this, because it > damages the other schools, and may just drive yet more teachers out of > the system. Rewind to 1957 in the Old South, "We all don't want to integrate because it will damage the schools and just drive teachers out of the system." Federal troops were required to provide justice for Black students then. Sometimes, there are higher moral necessities that supersede practical concerns. If in the America of the 21st century we cannot find a solution to equalize the delivery of educational services then we have failed as a free and democratic society. And there is no need to fail. As an individual I can come up with any number of possible solutions, none of which will be entirely pleasant for teachers, but so what. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] School discussion
Robert P. Goldman wrote: > Once again, when anyone disagrees with him, Michael A decides to > call that person a racist, and a segregationist. Excuse me? > He doesn't seem to feel any desire to engage in answering my question > which was to ask "how do we get teachers to WANT to take on the > challenge of high-poverty schools?" Name-calling meets his needs > more. Maybe I didn't answer this question because it has an assumed premise that I don't agree with. Personally, I don't think that WANTING is an absolute necessity in this situation. I think that educating students irregardless of race should be a part of the job description. As to "name-calling," I never called anyone anything. I tried to point out that the structure, and certain parts of your argument, have been used to perpetuate injustice in other situations, as I think they are here. > Nevertheless, I would still like to see some discussion of how > teachers could be made to want to take on this challenge. If, in the 1950s, we had waited until we could find a way to make segregationists WHAT to take on the challenge of integration we'd still be waiting. Sometimes we have to look back to the Bill of Rights and our fundamental values and then enforce them. > And I'd like to see the school system do this by leveling > UP, not leveling down. Perhaps you should explain what this means and then propose how to do it? > For what it's worth, our family uses a high-poverty school > (Jefferson) that does have a cadre of teachers with a lot of team > spirit, who seem to work together admirably well. Saying this > may lead to another outburst of name-calling from Michael A., > but: it is this cohesive team of experienced teachers that I would > fight to resist having be smashed and scattered to the winds. > I see that Jefferson was omitted from Michael's statistics: > > totalhispaf-am white > 575 296 180 70 > 51% 31% 12% > > Average teacher years of experience, 11.9 > > Although in the Uptown area, Jefferson has more than the average of > students eligible for free/reduced lunch, which makes it a > high-poverty school. > > This seems to suggest to me that it IS possible to have a > school where teachers will want to stay, even when it's a > high-poverty school. The issue was not "high-poverty" schools. The issue was whether Black students in particular are provided with educational services on par with Whites. How is it then relevant to give a single example of a school that is more than 50% Hispanic with a small White population. One of the points I was trying to make was that individual data points (schools) tend to distort the picture and that you need to look at the general trend. It also doesn't help to change the statistics you are reporting in the middle of the discussion. I was using "percentage of teachers with more than 10 years of experience," not "average teacher years of experience." I'll include the same figures as I was using for Jefferson below: WhiteBlack Years of Exp Students Students<3 >10 JEFFERSON 11.8%31.1% 4.0%53.0% This puts Jefferson somewhere in the middle of my analysis, which means it is not going so significantly impact the conclusion that Black students receive inferior services compared to Whites. You are welcome to analyze the figures for Hispanics. My guess is that the correlations for Hispanics will not be as extreme as they are for Blacks, although they will probably not be as good as those for Whites. Once again, the point of my argument is that the seniority system results in poorer educational opportunities for African American students and I think that the numbers clearly show that it does. Can we please stay on the same topic? If you'd like to argue that the seniority system results in equitable educational opportunities for all races please be my guest. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] School discussion
cites Peebles' "mercurial > temper," among other reasons. > > A grant supporting Belton's job was not renewed, and he may leave the > district soon, School Board members say. > > Not in your paper this a.m., but online at: > http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5481956.html And here's another surefire way to obstruct reform: Don't allow the superintendent to have control over her own employees. What were we saying about bad principles? What about bad administrators? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Steve Belton v. Thandiwe Peebles
Dan McGuire wrote: > I would feel better about the folks at 807 being on a fire > at will basis if what it was they were supposed to do was > better articulated. If their job expectations are reasonable, > then an at will employment status might make sense. I wonder, > also, how an at will employment status will affect future > recruiting for leadership positions. If it spurs improvement, > then there will be few complaints. There's nothing that would prohibit giving "at will" employees more secure contracts sometime in the future. Indeed, it's easier to go from "fire at will" to tenure, than from tenure to "fire at will." >From a more global perspective, rates of organization change should vary according to their success rates. I think that it's fair to say that the MPS are not presently very successful and increasing the rate of organizational change may result in significant progress at this point in time. It's certainly reasonable to conclude that the MPS haven't made much progress with the currently staff in the last ten years. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Steve Belton v. Thandiwe Peebles
Dan McGuire wrote: > The important question is - will the new employment > conditions work, in the short term and for the long > term? Steve Belton is someone who has considerable > experience with the MPS staff. It would be reckless > to discount his opinion. Where do Mr. Belton's loyalties lie? With the staff? With the teachers? With the DFL? Whose loyalties lie with the students? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] How quickly we get used to a smoke-free environment
Brionna Harder wrote: > I recently attended a professional conference in Washington, DC. My > colleagues and I did a lot of eating out and hanging out > during the week we were there and one of the recurring comments was how > surprised we were at our disgust that they were not smoke-free. In other > words, having gotten used to eating and drinking in smoke-free environments, > being in eating and drinking establishments that were not smoke-free was > difficult for all of us to stomach despite the fact that it has only been a few > months since the ban took effect here. It certainly made me appreciate the ban. A smoker visiting from D.C. could have a similar complaint about Minneapolis. Is it really that hard to call ahead and find out if a bar or restaurant has a non-smoking section and then choose accordingly? BTW, if you think D.C. is bad you should try traveling in Europe. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Forum Frets and Board Boredom
Gina Palandri wrote: > I don't know maybe I am just so bored with the smoking ban > discussions...I think smoking and stadiums, in relation to > an earlier post I made about how our local Mpls nursing homes > are understaffed and theres an 1 to 11 ratio of aides to patients > with alzheimers is pretty sad. But more people are worried here > in Mpls where they can light up. I'm not worried about where I can light up; I don't smoke. I'm worried about people who feel that they are justified in setting moral priorities for others against their will. There are a lot of things that interest other people that bore me the heck out of me. So many in fact that it scares me as to what the world would be like if everyone thought exactly as I do. Which is why I spend so much time defending the rights of others to make their own choices (as long as they don't inflict their choices on other people). Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] How quickly we get used to a smoke-free environment
Denny Wagner wrote: > That's a gross oversimplification and misrepresentation. I > don't like whiskey, but I hardly think it should be banned. Well that's a great analogy! :-| While you don't happen to want to ban whiskey it just so happens that there WAS a group of people who did and were successful in getting it banned, using many of the same reasons to justify the smoking ban. The power to force your values on others, when their behavior has no direct impact, allows the same type of impositions on you. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Forum Frets and Board Boredom
Jim Bernstein wrote: > To quote Michael Atherton: ". . . which is why I spend so much time > defending the rights of others to make their own choices as long as > they don't inflict their choices on other people." > > Smoking in enclosed public spaces is a near perfect example of > inflicting the smoker's choice on other people. The decision to > prohibit it respects the right of a community to protect > public health. There are lots of things that are done in public spaces that I think are potentially offensive or unhealthy, so I don't choose to enter these public spaces. That's my choice and yours, but I don't personally feel the need to prohibit others from choosing to participate in these activities. With slight modifications your argument would justify the prohibition of any number of activities, among them music, art, dancing, sports, driving, etc. I'm sure that there are many bars in Minneapolis that you've never patronized and will never patronize. I find your desire to ban smoking in these establishments morally offensive and dictatorial. At most, your argument would require the isolation of smokers, not the prohibition of smoking. As I have pointed out many times previously: Vancouver, B.C. has required the construction of smoking rooms by bars that want to allow patrons to smoke. These smoking rooms protect public health. Other than satisfying your own sense of morality, what further objectives does a ban provide for? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Forum Frets and Board Boredom
Michael Atherton had written: > At most, your argument would require the isolation of smokers, > not the prohibition of smoking. As I have pointed out many > times previously: Vancouver, B.C. has required the construction > of smoking rooms by bars that want to allow patrons to smoke. > These smoking rooms protect public health. Other than satisfying > your own sense of morality, what further objectives does a ban > provide for? Jim Bernstein responded: > Because restaurants and bars are public spaces! For the > umpteenth time, bars and restaurants are licensed facilities > in Minneapolis; they have to conform to public health standards > which are established by the city. The owner does not have the > authority to determine which public health standards he/she wishes > to abide by! Mark Snyder pondered: > Aside from that, I'm kind of curious what "slight modifications" > could be made to Jim's argument that would justify banning dancing, > music, art, sports or driving. Generally, governments feel the necessity of providing a justification for the imposition of force on individuals. Throughout history they have provided a variety of justifications: spiritual purity, moral turpitude, and so on. Although such rationalizations may seem innocuous enough to us in the 21st century, they have been used to justify all types of atrocities in the past. Today, rather than salvaging the souls or the morality of our fellow citizens, we justify our impositions on them in the name of public health. Although not quite as open to interpretation as spiritual purity or moral turpitude, public health, if liberally interpreted (no pun intended), can be used to ban any number of activities that involve what we normally consider to be acceptable risks. Professional sports for instance. There is a non-zero probability that you can be seriously injured or killed while attending any number of sporting events, from foul balls at Twins games to crashes at stock car races. We could ban any number of personal sports because of risks to participants or bystanders: rock climbing, sky diving, bicycling, etc. A number of years ago there was serious discussion about banning slam dancing as a public health hazard. The hegemony of morality into the realm of public health is exemplified by the redefining of the physical abuse of women as a public health epidemic (for some reason the physical abuse of men doesn't qualify). > This is issue is not and has never been about "rights". It is a very > simple question about whether or not second hand tobacco smoke in > enclosed places poses a hazard to people. If such a hazard > exists, then communities are free to take action to eliminate or > at least minimize the hazard. Right-wing "breath" squads are not dragging people from their homes and imprisoning them in smoky bars and restaurants. People go to these places by choice. There is no such thing as stealth cigarette smoke which injures people unawares (cigarette smoke stinks). People make knowledgeable and often stupid choices. It's their right or it damn well should be. So this issue IS really about "rights" and always has been. Maybe it's not about specific legal rights, but it is about the moral right of self-determination and individual choice. Social pressure and customer preference have been pervasive factors in the reduction of exposure to cigarette smoke in restaurants. They can continue to be. There is no need for the imposition of blanket legal prohibitions. > The evidence from myriad studies done about this issue is > compelling and persuasive to virtually every public health professional > and agency in the U.S. Communities therefore, are responding and > implementing ordinances and laws to protect the public by eliminating > second hand smoke in public places - including bars and restaurants. There is a myriad of studies about skin cancer that are compelling and persuasive to virtually every public health professional and agency in the U.S.: sunshine is a public health hazard. Yet, you are not advocating the imposition of burkas or sunscreen. Bottom line: I think that adults should be able to gather in public spaces and partake in pursuits that you and the society may find dangerous or offensive, as long as they don't impact other people against their will. You don't. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract __
RE: [Mpls] Smoking Ban Politics
Megan Goodmundson wrote: > If someone wants to smoke in their own home, go for it. > Government does not interfere with drinking & being > intoxicted in your own private setting but we all agree that > it is not socially acceptable or safe or healthy to be drunk > in public. So why are we going to regress and even re-visit > the idea to risk other's health in public by smoking? Is it > because of money? The tobacco industry's lose money too, but > isn't that the nature of business? It ebbs & flows. You must live in a different world or reality than I do. It's not socially acceptable or safe to be drunk in public? You must not get out much. Maybe you never attended any parties during high school or college. There sure seem to be a lot of bars around just for social drinkers. Very few people drink for the taste. Those that do spit, they don't swallow. Maybe we should force everyone who currently drinks (and swallows) in public to do it at home, that'd really make the bar and restaurant industry happy. Unbelievable. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Smoking Ban Politics
Brandon Lacy Campos wrote: > Megan is absolutely correct. You are NOT allowed to drink alcoholic > beverages in public. We seem to be confusing definitions. Drinking and (previously) smoking do take place in "public" establishments, as Mr. Bernstein has fervently argued. Bars and restaurants are certainly not "private" spaces. But to follow Mr. Lacy's apparent definition of large open spaces being the only "public" ones, then alcoholic beverages are illegal in SOME cases (e.g., public streets, but not Twins games and some music events), and cigarette smoking is legal in "public" spaces. The ban has had no effect on public smoking under Mr. Lacy's definition. Conversely, (to follow the same argument) cigarette smoking is banned in private, but alcohol is not. Ms. Goodmundson's and Mr. Lacy's posts only cloud the issues related to the smoking ban (no pun intended). At least from my perspective, the discussion revolves around local governments actions to ban cigarette smoking in bars and restaurants. There haven't been any attempts to ban smoking in Mr. Lacy's "public" spaces. > And since second hand smoke kills more people every year > than...say...gun violenceI think it is right on to ban > smoking in public venues. Period. The guy drinking right > next to me isn't going to intoxicate me against my > will at a bar...the guy smoking next to me can sure as heck > help me along the way to cancer against my will (and the > diatribes about choosing to be in a place where there is > smoking are old and tired...smokers can choose to > smoke at home, or in their cars, etc. etc. etc. rights are > accorded based on those that are most adversely affected... > therefore my right to live free of second hand smoke and > potential deadly harm trumps the right of a smoker to > smoke in a public space where he or she can put another at > risk). There is no unequivocal evidence showing a strong link between health and the effects of secondhand smoke in bars and restaurants. If there is, please cite the study. If rather than "public health," we use spiritual purity or moral turpitude as justifications we could just as easily ban homosexuality (as many evangelicals would like to do). If you don't wanted to be offended by homosexuality you shouldn't go to gay bars. If you don't want to be exposed to secondhand smoke you shouldn't go to bars that permit smoking. Different people have different inclinations and preferences, just because some of them offend you that's not a justification for legally prohibiting other people from enjoying them. Mr. Lacy is too young to remember, but at the beginning of the AIDS crisis "public health" was used to advocate all kinds of irrational and oppressive restrictions on homosexuals. It was "God's Curse" (just to illustrate the interrelationships between spiritual purity, moral turpitude, and public health). Steven Clift wrote: > All I know is that I loved my bowling league in St. Louis Park after the > ban and I'll never go back to stinking on a Sunday night (other than on > the lanes). Sure there are benefits from the imposition of injustice on others. I'm sure that many Germans were happy to see Jews confined to ghettos. Limiting the choices of others may support your preferences, but not others. But that's my major point, how do we determine fairly what others should be allowed to do? Keep in mind that the ban not only provides you smoke free bowling lanes, but it also prevents people who like to smoke from having ANY "public" choices in Minneapolis. Why is it so unreasonable to allow bowlers who smoke to have a few bowling lanes where they can? You can always lobby your bowling league to only hold events in lanes that are non-smoking. WizardMarks wrote: > I should say here that I'm thoroughly tired of this thread. People, both > pro and anti, are cemented into their positions, there is not one > scintilla of movement either way. Everything is just a boring repetition > of previously expressed opinion. The fact that there is movement (on the county board) is the reason this issue has flared up again (pun intended). Your Delete Key is located in the upper right side of your keyboard. What bores you may not bore everyone. Which is kinda the issue here. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Guns and Nirvana
Don Johnson wrote: > Until we citizens of Mpls reach complete Nirvana would gun > safes in homes and businesses be too much to ask? When it > comes to stray bullets, the life you save may be your own. If you purchase a gun for self-protection (and I'm not advocating that anyone should), what's the point of locking it up in a safe? Guns are only useful for self-defense if they're readily available, otherwise you might as well not own one. Unless of course you're a hunter or collector and then gun safes make a lot of sense. To protect children we need technology that only allows the owner to fire the gun. I have difficulty understanding why we're having so much trouble designing such systems. If we can design cardiac pacemakers I don't see why trigger lock would be so difficult (this is an attempt at a little self-deprecating black humor). And, I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with a mayoral candidate asking rhetorical questions like this when the answers are so obvious. I guess it might have something to do with being the 23rd most liberal city in America. ;-) Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Guns and Nirvana
Dennis Plante wrote: > It is absolute hogwash to blame the recent spike in murders > and crime on the current "socio-economic" conditions. > > Even in the worst of economic times, the overwhelming > majority of people, do NOT resort to killing someone else > because they have no other way to obtain > an income. Boy, I feel really conflicted about this issue. First off, I don't think that you can really understand poverty unless you've stared it in the face. There was a distinct point in my life where, without a lucky break, I would have ended up in a lifetime loop of incarceration as did many of my friends. Breaks are important, connections are important; social support, mores, and minority culture are important. You can gain more of a perspective on this if you have lived in the South and know that the culture of poverty is not limited to minorities. I don't think that anyone who believes it's just a matter of family values has ever grown up in an urban culture of poverty. But okay, as a conservative I will concede that, "yes," any one individual can make it in America on will power alone, but we're concerned about the aggregate here, not special cases. The fewer the opportunities, the more children who will disappear into crime. I've stressed over and over again that we need to do something about Minneapolis' 47% high school dropout rate. If you don't realize that lowering the dropout will have an impact on crime rates, then I don't think you've thought much about the problem. The difficulty here is that many people believe that it really is, "just a matter of family values" and not systemic problems within the educational system. Why? Because I don't think that people are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to provide an equality of opportunities. Would equality of educational opportunity eliminate crime and poverty? No, of course not, but it would reduce their pervasiveness. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] District investigating alleged misconduct by superintendent
Dan McGuire wrote > If the allegations against Ms. Peebles are true, this is > about much more than bad talk. Little children classroom > stuff is all about integrity, respect and responsibility. Because of the continuing campaign to discredit Dr. Peebles, I think that we have to receive these new charges with a fair amount of skepticism. We don't know if she asked a district employee to do homework for her, make a copy of a class assignment, or drop something in the mail, if in fact any charge is true. While I would agree that if true any one or all of these might be justification for reprimand or dismissal, I think that the primary justification (as in Monicagate) would have to be stupidity. When you know the jackals are nipping at your heals you need to keep your hands clean and your cigar in your pocket. Regardless of whether it is used by conservatives or liberals I find this constant harassment strategy to be offensive. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] District investigating alleged misconduct by superintendent
Jim Bernstein wrote: > In the end we may learn that these allegations are completely false or > they are substantially true or something in between. If they > are false, then the School Board needs to take action to discipline those who > engage in such maliciousness. If they are true then the School Board > needs to address those findings with Superintendent Peebles and take > whatever action is warranted. In any event, the School Board cannot > just on their hands and hope that this situation goes away. Although I'd agree for the most part with this augment, we still need to be cognizant of when allegations represent a pattern of harassment. Kenneth Starr should have been dismissed a year prior to impeachment. At some point, the school board needs to limit the credibility of these accusations (however, in my opinion this is unlikely given that some members of board seem to have an stake in perpetuating them). Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Graffiti again
Don Greeley wrote: Mr.Wilde said: > " I am aware of this welcome change in the law. > However, painting over graffiti is just a white-wash, > and doesn't address the real gang problem that the > graffiti is only a visible symptom of." > > I have to strongly disagree with Mr. Wilde's statement. Painting over > gang graffiti is not a "white-wash". Gangsters are attempting to mark > their territory with gang graffiti. We know from a lot of experience > that when gangsters start marking turf, and writing over each others > gang markers, they are trying to provoke the rival gang. Violence > frequently follows. Painting over gang tags as quickly as possible is > one way to help reduce the provocation, and the likelihood of gang > violence. Gang graffiti is much more than just a symptom of the gang > problem. If I remember correctly, there is research showing that not responding to graffiti increases the deterioration of neighborhoods. Just think about for a while, would you get out of your car and shop in a neighborhood that is covered with graffiti? In L.A. knowledgeable people avoid such places, if they can. In fact, knowing about tags and gang symbols is an important means of self-preservation. I always thought it was funny that every year or so Minnesotan papers have an article about the dangers of walking or driving on the ice, while in L.A. every year or so there's an article about how to protect yourself at ATMs and what to do if your car breaks down on the freeway. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] (no subject)
Don Johnson Candidate for Mayor wrote: > This forum like the op ed pages of most newspapers is full > of the baloney of hacks, spin masters and lobbyists from the oil, coal, > nuclear and auto industry. The "logorhea" that recently trashed solar energy > was a prime example. As if being mayor would be any different? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Mpls Schools make gains-Will Supt Peebles criticssupporther?
Dorie Rae Gallagher wrote: > Way to go Peebles! Proof is in the puddingperhaps some of > the attack cats can leave her alone to do her job which is to > improve our schools which sunk into obliteration in more kind > and gentler days. As much as I've defended Dr. Peebles, this is DEFINITELY not proof of her effectiveness. I could as easily claim that the improvement in test scores is due to NCLB. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] A serious problem with stopping crime
Dan McGrath wrote: > Actually, on reviewing Dave Shegstad's written complaint to Internal > Affairs, I did discover a point of fact I was mistaken on. > Dave Shegstad DID make a citizens arrest, but did so with > uniformed police assistance. He didn't have to handle that > phase solo, at least. First, let me admit that I am not familiar with Minnesota's criminal statues, but in California (if my memory serves me correctly and lately it been a little fuzzy) misdemeanors had to have been observed directly by an officer for them to make an arrest, although they were required to follow through on a citizen's arrest. Also, I think that it's unlikely that they would incarcerate anyone based on a misdemeanor citizen's arrest. Could this situation been handled better? It would seem so, but it would have depended on now busy a night it was and how serious the other calls. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Rybak retort to Police Federation
Dennis Plante wrote: > To feel the need to "drive the point home" by mentioning the > disaster in NO on the same parallel to what we face everyday > in MSP for crime and lawlessness, is indeed in my mind, > unconscionable. It has been ingrained in me that the worst > set of circumstances have a tendency to bring-out the > "true colors" of those involved. I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Plante. Mr. Delmonico's comments are so outrageous and offensive to the people of New Orleans that one would have to wonder about voters who would listen to his recommendation. I think his communication is one that could have benefited greatly from the "sleep on it" rule. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Rybak retort to Minneapolis Police Federation
> > Well, I can agree with that. Let's not forget that the Minneapolis DFL has > > two nearly-identical candidates -- actually moderate Republicans -- wasting > > about a million bucks apiece to sling mud at each other. > > There they float, side by side, in the big porcelain bowl. > > High up there is a large chrome handle. I think that this representation is completely false and intentionally distorted for political advantage. First, characterizing either of candidates as "moderate Republicans" is ridiculous. It shows how radically left of center the accusers are. Second, you need only look at the lawn signs in my neighborhood to realize that there are major differences between these candidates. For the most part, those with McLaughlin signs are old guard DFL/NRP ingroupees. Those with Rybak signs are younger and more free from past loyalties. I think that who you chose brakes along the edges of commitment to Old Labor (as can be evidenced by the Police Federation recommendation) support for the pork barrel NRP program, and "hope" for a more progressive and farsighted DFL. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] FBI Searches Dean Zimmermann's Home
Jim Graham wrote: > No matter what it is a sad day for Minneapolis. Again. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Unconditionally support Dean Zimmerman
Margaret Hastings wrote: > I support Dean Zimmerman unconditionally. > And I mean unconditionally. You mean to say that you would support Council Member Zimmerman even if he is charged and convicted of corruption? Note that Mr. Zimmerman hasn't been charged with anything, I'm just astounded that someone be so quick to rush to judgment without any evidence, regardless of whether it's evidence of guilt or innocence. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Unconditionally support Dean Zimmerman
WizardMarks wrote: > The nature of friendship is that you support your friend > through the ordeal implied in a visit from the FBI--or any > other ordeal for that matter. If your friend has made a > mistake which could brand him/her as having committed a > felony, then the support of friends is more important than > ever. Supporting a friend does not condone any crime > that may/might/could be construed as having been committed, it > supports the human connection without which we die. I can understand this level of commitment for a parent or a priest, but I think that some point we have to take a stand on the ethical behavior of the people we support or associate with. If my friend is a gang member who accidentally shoots a child should I support them unconditional by remaining silent? I think that the unconditional support of unethical behavior does not result in positive consequences for our society. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Unconditionally support Dean Zimmerman
Diane Wiley wrote: > What don't you get about the presumption of innocence > Michael? And why are you so quick to assume the FBI is > right on the money -- they don't ever make mistakes? I'm getting terribly irritated by people who fail to support their accusations by failing to quote what others have said. I made no presumptions of innocence or guilt. I was making a point about the moral dangers of unconditional loyalty. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Unconditionally support Dean Zimmerman
Becca Vargo Daggett wrote: > I should stay out of this, and I realize George Lakoff's 15 > minutes are up, but this exchange is a perfect illustration of his > "strict father" versus "nurturant parent" metaphors in his book, > Moral Politics. > > Support is not the same as unconditional loyalty. Loyalty means > standing by and saying nothing in the face of immoral or unethical > behavior, because one expects to be rewarded in return. It is a > characteristic of dogs, as well as successful members of both the mob > and the Bush administration. > > Support means believing that one (alleged) bad action does not make a > bad person. It's what allows us to raise children, maintain family > ties, and to sometimes live in our own glass houses. I'm going to begin my response with a koan: "Sometimes moral action is more important than moral philosophy." Within the context of Lakoff's rationality this koan makes no sense, but in truth no amount of liberal word waving vacates the semantics of individual moral responsibility. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Zimmermann bribery allegations a frame-up
Doug Mann wrote: > Dean Zimmermann is the target of a politically motivated > frame-up and smear campaign being carried out at taxpayers > expense. Consider: The timing of the sensational raid on > Dean Zimmermann's house to seize documents that are already > in the public domain (at a Hennepin County website). The FBI > press releases. The evidence presented in reports published by the > Star-Tribune. The ulterior motive: Kill the Green Party's chances > of holding and gaining seats on the city council this fall. Not that I'm adverse to conspiracy theories (I have a number of my own, including being the subject of a campaign contribution sting ;-) and not that it doesn't make me a little queasy defending the FBI, but has anyone considered that if the FBI had rock solid evidence don't you think that they might have discussed whether to hold off until after the election and then have decided that it was in the interests of an informed electorate that they should proceed with their investigation (not to mention that they might have compromised their case by waiting). Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Zimmermann bribery allegations a frame-up (Letter toStar-Tribune)
> Doug Mann responds: The FBI clearly stepped over the line. > The FBI's raid and press releases clearly serve political > ends. And you evidence is? > And the FBI ha a long history of carrying out > "investigations" that serve political, and not legitimate law > enforcement aims, such as the cointelpro programs of the > 1960s and 70s. This maybe true previously, but why is it true in this case? > If the FBI already had rock solid evidence of Zimmermann's > guilt, what was the point of the early morning raid of DZ's' > house? Did they find the smoking gun they were after? Search warrants are typically executed to collect evidence. > Did the FBI raid yield a shoe box full of money? A rack > full of Armani suits? Did the seizure of bank DZ's bank > records show mysterious or unusually large cash deposits? > Did DZ's campaign records fail to account for > thousands of dollars in small campaign contributions(which > are not itemized in the public campaign finance report) ? This just does not match the accusations. Mr. Zimmermann is accused of taking money to finance his campaign and pay legal debts. Extravagant spending is not a necessary consequence of corruption. > Incidentally, there were no press releases about Brian Herron > allegedly taking bribes before he was prepared to enter a plea of > "guilty" to charges of felony extortion (18 July 2001). > http://citypages.com/databank/22/1088/article9861.asp So? What do this imply? Mr. Zimmermann's case, maybe different than Mr. Herron's. Why not try making some wild connection because of the difference in race? What I find interesting is that Mr. Zimmermann has yet to public deny the charges (at least to my knowledge). He made a statement about the importance of his social agenda. The goals justify the means...right? His lawyer hasn't denied that he took money, he said that campaign laws were fuzzy. This is not a strong declaration of innocence. Regardless, I'm reserving judgment until Mr. Zimmerman has his day in court. However, I'm afraid that Mr. Mann's reasoning is not prudent or reasonable and is uncharacteristic of the performance that I would expect of a city councilmember. I had more respect for Candidate Mann when he ran his school board campaigns on facts, rather than wild unverified accusations. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Zimmermann bribery allegations a frame-up (LettertoStar-Tribune)
Mark Anderson wrote: > I think the root problem is the power the council members have > over individual developers and building trade workers. The best > thing we could do is simply to deregulate these occupations, which would > eliminate the council members' temptations, as well as greatly improve the > opportunities of the poor to work their way out of poverty. But even if we > don't do that, we must remove the temptations from the direct purview of > council members. A department of the city should be in charge of making > such individual decisions. The council should be making policy decisions, > not micro-managing the city. Of course the bureaucrats in charge > would then be subject to corruption. But at least the council would then > be interested in rooting out the corruption, and maybe we wouldn't need the > FBI to root out the miscreants. I think that the root problem is that we have a populous that turns a blind eye to unethical behavior as long as it benefits them personally. Really, how many of the 70% of voters who reelected Phyllis Kahn bothered to personally express their disapproval of her stealing candidates' political literature? How can we elect ethical politicians if the public continues to "unconditionally" support them? "It's the culture, stupid!" It seems to me that it's only the FBI that is concerned about corruption and when they do something about it people accuse them of being biased! Have you ever wondered why no Republicans in Minneapolis have been changed with corruption? It's not because the FBI is biased against Greens and the DFL, it's because there are no Republicans on the council! Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Don't blame the DFL for FBI conduct in the Zimmermann affair
Doug Mann wrote: > Occam's Razor: one should not increase, beyond what is > necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything. Ack! An example of how to misrepresent rationality to lend credibility to an irrational argument. Occam's Razor refers to the complexity of supposedly factual explanations, not the complexity of paranoid fantasies. Here's an equally valid and less complex conspiracy theory to explain the Zimmermann Affair: God willed it. It is through divine intention hat the FBI is persecuting Mr. Zimmerman. God is testing Mr. Zimmerman's faith and righteousness. The FBI is only an instrument of God's will. I think that Green Party supporters could do a better job of prompting their other candidates by sticking to rational and believable strategies rather than pseudo- scientific spin. I was impressed when the Green's challenged the FBI to come forward with an indictment. It's a great strategy because: 1) It gives the appearance of integrity; 2) Puts on the best face for to continue supporting their other candidates; and 3) It is a no lose strategy because the FBI won't be rushed anyway and if Mr. Zimmerman is guilty the Party can always claim that they took the higher moral ground. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] FBI jurisdiction
Ed Felien wrote: > David Brauer raises an interesting point about the > appropriateness of the FBI intervening in this case. > The FBI assumes a mandate because the City of > Minneapolis is using Federal funds somewhere in its budget. > This narrow justification strains credibility, and it was > the basis of Basim Sabri's appeal that went all the way to > the U. S. Supreme Court. Unfortunately, the activist and > interventionist Supreme Court overruled the Appeals Court > verdict and granted the FBI power to intervene everywhere > Federal dollars are spent. I say bring it on! There ain't nobody else gonna do it. I think that the morality and political ethics of this town stinks. Even with all of it's abuses, the FBI is a self-correcting organization because of the integrity of the people who are attracted to it (and they'll never be able to screen this out). I can't think of any instance where the FBI has completely fabricated a case against anyone. Although I can think of several where entrapment was used and evidence was withheld. Not to mention, other instances overzealous enforcement. The check on overzealous enforcement is the courts. Is there anyone here who is claiming that Mr. Zimmerman would not get a fair trail in Minneapolis? Corruption is an self-perpetuating evil that is very difficult to root out. It almost always requires an outside organization to address it. Some of you may never have lived in other regions or countries where corruption is endemic, but it eventually limits all types of personal freedom and expression. Corruption is antithetical to a democratic society. And besides, there are so many legal ways to milk the system here, that you would have to be fool to do it illegally (or think your cause particularly worthy). Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] This is Farheen
Dennis Planet wrote: > Although I am not a supporter of Peter McGlaughlin, I believe > that what he is saying is fair, honest and accurrate. In the heat of a > campaign, it is virtually impossible to "screen" all the volunteers > that may wish to participate. I tip my cap to him for taking the time > to confirm his position on the subject. I agree. In my experience Commissioner McLaughlin has been a stand-up guy. He's the kind of person I wish I had as a neighbor, unfortunately I don't agree with many of the issues that he supports. Nonetheless, I think he deserves our respect for being willing to speak to us directly. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Mayor/County Rep question
Gary Hoover wrote: > OK, how about this? We just have RT Rybak and Comish > McLaughlin switch places! Wouldn't that make everybody happy? > > Myself, I will need some convincing to vote for a DFL > candidate in any race now. We are back to voting for > "Arne Carlson moderate Republicans is DFL > clothing for the most part. The exceptions are few. [snip] > The DFL is like the Republicans in that the pork barrel > spending is almost always directed to the benefit of the > already wealthy and in the most short-sited projects possible. > The projects moving toward sustainability or environmental > justice are window-dressing, and are far too little far too > late. I won't argue that both major parties are into pork barrel spending, but I don't agree that because they support special interests, that they support the SAME special interests. I think that there are MAJOR differences between the mayoral candidates. Given that there are no candidates who share my political views, I'm in the position of deciding to make my vote count meaningfully or simply register a protest. For what little it's worth I'm going to make my vote count. On the council side, I have a choice of actually selecting between candidates from two different parties and even though I once again have little in common with my choice, I do get to vote for someone who I don't think owes a huge debt to special interests. So I'm a conservative voting for a Green. I hope that my vote will help clean up the stagnant political quagmire that Minneapolis has become, but looking across the candidates I see only isolated possibilities for change. May God (or the FBI) help us all. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Turnout: Best and Worst by Precinct
Aaron Klemz wrote: > Questions of overall turnout are interesting, but I'm > fascinated by the unevenness of turnout. So I went and > did a quick look see of the highest and lowest turnout > precincts: > Highest (by percentage) > > 1) W2 P2 32.13% W2 P2 is Prospect Park "Central." I guess it's interesting to know that we're so political active (in a bizarre kind of way). Of course, there's a debt owed for saving Pratt Elementary from closure (the city's smallest school). I'm glad to see that Pratt parents reciprocated for the Mayor's personal promise to help. Power to those who vote! Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Turnout: Best and Worst by Precinct
OPPS! Right! Sorry, my mistake. Misread the map. Thanks Loki. Well, that's also interesting given that it's Cam Gordon's neighborhood. Right? Goes to show what can go wrong when you rush things. Ack. Michael Atherton Prospect Park _ From: Loki Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 11:32 AM To: Michael Atherton Subject: RE: [Mpls] Turnout: Best and Worst by Precinct Michael, Prospect Park is 2-5 (and 2-6). 2-2 is in Seward. Loki Anderson Michael Atherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Aaron Klemz wrote: > Questions of overall turnout are interesting, but I'm > fascinated by the unevenness of turnout. So I went and > did a quick look see of the highest and lowest turnout > precincts: > Highest (by percentage) > > 1) W2 P2 32.13% W2 P2 is Prospect Park "Central." I guess it's interesting to know that we're so political active (in a bizarre kind of way). Of course, there's a debt owed for saving Pratt Elementary from closure (the city's smallest school). I'm glad to see that Pratt parents reciprocated for the Mayor's personal promise to help. Power to those who vote! Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls _ Yahoo! for Good Click <http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/> here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Felien on Zimmerman
Gary Hoover wrote: [snip] > I read the article. I think that it is excellent. In the > context of what has been documented in terms various arms > of the Justice Department acting to suppress political dissent, > Felien's take on this makes even more sense. Ed Felien's own > experience as he recounts it in the article adds important > context as well. [snip] > I highly recommend the article to fellow list members. I highly recommend this article as well, but not for the same reason. I think that it calls into question Councilmember Zimmerman's judgment, if nothing else. Sorry, but I think that it is blatantly foolish for a councilmember to be accepting envelopes of cash from constituents. This isn't the 1800s. Even if such an action isn't illegal I'd personally feel downright uncomfortable doing it, regardless if there was no room for misinterpretation. Why not just ask them to put a stamp on it and send it in to your campaign? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Felien on Zimmerman
WizardMarks wrote: > During campaigns candidates have coffee parties which are essentially > parties to schmooze with the candidates and put envelopes > with donations into a basket on the table. People write checks or > give cash. It's an accepted practice. That someone would pass an > envelope of cash to a candidate outside a coffee party probably isn't > that unusual either. Great! It's normal in Minneapolis politics to be passing your favorite candidate envelopes filled with cash. I must have just passed from neurotic to psychotic because I think this is -really- crazy. And people think that the FBI is just blowing smoke rings. Whoa. How are they suppose to tell the difference between collusion and contribution? When it shows up on the contributor list? Well, apparently they didn't show on Councilmember Zimmerman's. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Felien on Zimmerman
Dorie Rae Gallagher wrote: > Two of the candidate fundraisers that I went to this year > actually recorded donations at the door. To have > envelopes of money not recorded is NOT a testimonial to someone's > introspective integrity. I do not believe the FBI shows up at > someones door willy-nilly to spoil their chances to a > Green CM seat. So it is the culture! If you support practices that do not allow for accountability in campaign financing then you are implicitly allowing the possibility of corruption. I don't see that banning cash contributions would discourage many contributors or seriously impact the amount of money donated. Really, what type of businesses typically do transactions in cash without paper trails, other than street venders? I noted that not having cash donations recorded is not necessarily a testimonial to someone's integrity, just a testimonial to their good judgment. Remember that in this particular case we're not talking about contributions of $10 or $20, but $100s. We're not talking about cash envelopes given to a staff member at a fundraiser, but envelopes given directly to the candidate with no paper records. We're not talking about a random contributor, but someone with business outcomes impacted by council decisions. The fact that such contributions are even legal should be an embarrassment to the city of Minneapolis. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Felien on Zimmerman
Jim Graham wrote: > One of the few times I have to agree with Michael Atherton. Actually, Mr. Graham and I still disagree. While Mr. Graham appears to only be concerned with the indiscretion of one "green" politician, I am concerned about the ethical pitfalls of the entire system, including Mr. Graham's beloved NRP program, which has even fewer checks and balances than the city's municipal campaign financing. If any group is responsible for lax ethical standards, it the party in power. The Greens can do no more than call for an investigation, they cannot clean the system up on their own initiative. I am trying to spotlight the flaws in the system, Mr. Zimmerman just happened to fall though one. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Re: Felien on Zimmermann
Doug Mann wrote: > The FBI was poised to go to a grand jury when they raided > Zimmermann's house, then backed off. They evidently didn't > have the critical hard evidence of a quid pro quo before or > after the raid. And now that the FBI has blown the cover > on its sting operation, it is unlikely to catch its prey with > any new traps. Not to keep harping on this, but rather to show the irrationality of Mr. Mann's line of thinking: The fact that the FBI hasn't moved on an indictment says almost nothing about the guilt or innocence of Councilmember Zimmermann. In fact, the apparent lack of activity may be indicative of Mr. Zimmermann's cooperation. I guess Mr. Mann doesn't watch The Sopranos. ;-) Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Re: Felien on Zimmermann
Robert Halfhill wrote: >Again, I will ask the same question I asked last time. > Dean Zimmermann is alleged to have accepted a bribe from the > developer of the project at 24th and Chicago to vote to > approve more retail businesses on the first floor of the > project. But Zimmermann voted against approving additional > retail on the first floor of the project. >How can you be guilty of accepting a bribe to do something > if you didn't do it? Where is the bribe and what is the crime? My primary concern here is not Dean Zimmermann, it's a system that allows and, in many ways, benefits selfishness over the general welfare. To that extent, criminal culpability is secondary and ethical values primary. If Mr. Zimmermann were to deny the events detailed in the affidavit, I would back off, but until he does so I'm assume they are accurate. In my view, those events show a clear lack of judgment and a lack of ethical values. Come on! Greens are suppose to be opposed to the evil influences of corporations and business on government and the environment. We're talking about the undue influences of cash campaign donations on the political process here. Whether Mr. Zimmermann was an effective instrument of those influences is irrelevant to me: according to the affidavit he took the money. Besides, while I'm not a lawyer, I suspect that Mr. Zimmermann could still be charged with conspiracy and bribery even if he never effectively completed his end of the alleged quid pro quo. The key here is whether he accepted the money in exchange for influence. And personally, even if he had intended all along to do exactly the same, accepting cash with the implication that it would affect an outcome is just as unethical. However, if I were a supporter of Mr. Zimmermann's and he were to publicly deny the events in the affidavit, he would still have my vote. He has a right to be assumed innocent. That would be my strategy, come out strong and portray myself as a fighter for a just society and a victim of cooperate America...but you've gotta have the capital to do that, because if you don't you're going to look like one giant sleaze ball. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Re: Felien on Zimmermann
I want to make it clear that the only difference I believe there is between Mr. Zimmermann and other members of the council is that Mr. Zimmermann was not properly briefed on the proper syntax for accepting contributions. Really, we're talking about the difference here in a few verbs and adjectives. Say it right and you're reelected, say it wrong and you're in court. The DFL has so much more experience in these matters. The smart DFLers know the difference between an NRP home improvement loan and a little bit of free plumbing. I'll not forget my impression of Joe Biernat hand in the cookie jar attitude, "Why me? Why can't I end up with a great cooperate job after I leave office?" Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Z bribe allegation based on fabricated evidence
Doug Mann wrote: > US attorney Tom Hefflefinger should immediately resign or be > fired, and face prosecution for official misconduct in relation > to his investigation of Dean Zimmermann. Just for the sake of fairness, before calling for Mr. Hefflefinger's resignation, shouldn't we ask Mr. Zimmermann to make a public declaration of his innocence and provide us with his version of events? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Prospect Park Discussion Group
I've created a Yahoo Group for discussing and sharing issues, news, and information about the Prospect Park Neighborhood. If you'd like to join, feel free to visit the website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ProspectPark/. Please be aware that you will need to create a Yahoo account to join. Don't miss this opportunity to become a founding member! :-) You don't need to be a resident of Prospect Park to join. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Z bribe allegation based on fabricated evidence
Doug Mann responded: > In a message dated 9/23/2005 "Michael Atherton" wrote, > > > Just for the sake of fairness, before calling for Mr. Hefflefinger's > > resignation, shouldn't we ask Mr. Zimmermann to make a public > > declaration of his innocence and provide us with his version of > > events? > > Is it really fair to demand that Dean Zimmermann prove his innocence? This is a Straw Mann argument (pun intended). I never demanded that Mr. Zimmermann *prove* his innocence. It's my personal opinion that Mr. Zimmermann's silence is hurting both his campaign and the Minneapolis Green Party and their other candidates as well. As a Green Party candidate I would hope that Mr. Zimmermann would take the higher moral ground here. After all, he's not a DFLer. :-| I certainly hope he doesn't follow Mr. Biernat's example. > What Dean reportedly told Wizard Marks in an interview concerning > a meeting with the cooperating witness can be introduced as evidence > in a court of law. According to Marks, Dean said that the FBI's witness > accurately quoted him saying "Money, money, money" in response to a > question about what he wanted, but the context was a birthday party > attended by about 100 people. The FBI's affidavit quoted him out of > context. That's an example of how evidence can be fabricated. If the > FBI is willing to fabricate evidence to obtain a search warrant > from a judge, why wouldn't the FBI fabricate evidence to obtain a > conviction from a jury? Boy, this just never stops spinning. The, "Money, money, money," remark may have just been used to show motivation and intent. In and of itself it wouldn't have been sufficient to justify a warrant. There had to be more (fabricated or not). > Just for the sake of argument, let us say that Dean Zimmermann > is innocent, that he is being falsely accused of wrongdoing by > the FBI's cooperating witness, and that Mr. Zimmermann's lawyer > is competent and believes that his client is innocent. Dean's > lawyer will almost certainly advise him to not provide us, > and the FBI, with his version of events, because the FBI can use > that information to build its case, coach its witnesses, etc. Mr. Zimmermann is facing tradeoff, he can run out the best strategy to defend himself in court and lose the election. Or, he can take the slight risk that as an innocent person he might be falsely convicted and instead maximize his chances for reelection. From my perspective Mr. Zimmermann's current strategy isn't very Green. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Park Board Groups
Ray Marshall wrote: > Is Steve Clift with both "People for Independent Parks" and > "Citizens for Park Board Reform? Is the first group supporting > the second group's candidates? > > This is very confusing. Almost as confusing as to whom to > vote for the Library Board. Don't you just love democracy? Confusion benefits the incumbents. The only chance the (real?) reformers have is by clearly identifying alternatives. Personally, I don't see the reformers as being much better than the incumbents. Just what is it they're trying to reform? Dirty politics? They seem just as political. The REAL reform would be to eliminate the Park Board and create a Parks & Recreation Department. It'd be one small step towards making the mayor something more than a cheerleader. The current lack of interest, knowledge, and confusion surrounding the Park Board only benefits the existing DFL's backroom. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Zimmermann Denies Accusations on NRP
"Minneapolis City Councilmember Dean Zimmermann says he didn't take any bribes or solicit them. Zimmermann is the target of a federal corruption investigation. He has not been charged, but he has been accused by an FBI agent of accepting several thousand dollars in bribes from a local developer." http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/09/29_williamsb_zimmerma n/ Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] I agree with Michael Hohmann
Mark Hanson wrote: > I appreciate Michael Hohmann's articulate discussion of the > cost/benefits of city government, and laying out what the > future might be for all of us. He expressed several points > that I've been thinking about, but haven't written down. > > He provides a good template of questions that all candidates > should address in the next 4 weeks. I normally agree with Michael Hohmann opinions as well. I'm very disappointed that he didn't succeed in the primary because he could have contributed significantly to a discussion of the issues. I hope that Mr. Hohmann will consider running for a citywide office in the future so that I can have a chance to vote for him. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] You called him a pornographer...show me the pornography...
Michael Thompson wrote: > The Trendsetter (or any other pornographic publication) isn't > bringing women down, nor is the cabal of publishers and the > "concentrated media ownership society." Men who allow > porn to negatively impact their interactions with women are > bringing ALL of us down. But they're the ones that hold the > onus of change, not the publications they read. While we're talking about banning pornographic publications I think that we should mention Cosmopolitan, with all those expertise articles about how to send your partner over the top. Who buys that disgusting stuff anyway? ;-) If Councilmember Samuels did call someone a pornographer I think he owes them an apology. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] "Color" vs. "Race" some clarification of terms
Dorie Rae Gallagher wrote: > Discriminatory action and feeling is within an individual. We > are not born with it...it is taught. Children do not care if their > playmates are green or yellowonly until told to stay away > and the enforcement of fear do children learn this trait. > Discrimination is not only about color and depth of color, > but a whole spectrum from religion, head covers, size, > education, sexual preference, (politics?!). > Solution..education and compassion, both can be taught. Education is not a solution for discrimination. Integration in some schools even increased the amount of prejudice. I also don't believe that you can teach compassion. What you might be able to teach is respect, courtesy, and tolerance (none of which require compassion), but this is difficult to do when student realize that such attitudes are conditional, even for adults. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Values?
I started a discussion about values in a homeschooler list and then realized that I would be very interested in knowing what values are important to my fellow Minneapolitans, especially in an election year. It would also be interesting to see the responses of the candidates. So, below are the values that I am hoping to instill in my children and that I try to abide by myself (ranked in order of importance, 1 being most important). Please feel free to change the order or add and delete values. 1. Kind 2. Honorable 3. Happy 4. Intellectual 5. Successful 6. Disciplined 7. Brave 8. Polite 9. Generous 10. Respectful 11. Law abiding Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Issues
First off, I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to reflect and post their thoughts about values. It's really something I've been thinking a lot about in regards to raising our children and do appreciate the insights of others. There are a couple of comments I'd like to make Laura Waterman Wittstock wrote: > I'm with Earl on the values. People often confuse values with > ethics or beliefs. I'd call Michael's list ethics, a creed, or > even attributes. For example, not everyone has the capacity to be > intellectual. Intellectualism is the appreciation of the intellect and it's products, it's not the same as intelligence. So I believe that most everyone has the capacity of be intellectual, in much the same way that while many people may not have artistic talent, they can still appreciate art. Emilie Quast wrote: > For Michael's list, I'd have to drop the word "successful" because > there are so many kinds of success. Financial success is nice as > long as it's not at the expense of other kinds of success that I > value more highly. You have to remember that there was an explicit order to my list, so success has to judged in terms of other values. Personally, I believe that success provides the ability to help others. Financial success certainly falls into this category. Ron Leurquin wrote: > I wonder then if we should uphold the Boy Scouts for its efforts at > discrimination against the GLBT community then? If the Boy Scouts were following their own creed, they wouldn't be discriminating against the GLBT community. Earl Netwal wrote: > Recently the DFL as a party has been struggling with the concept. > Primarily in response to some of our opponents insistence on claiming > "Values" as their terrain. But also because there is a desire to clarify > our own message and image. This turned out to be a difficult task. > Afterall as the party for the people, we discover that people have a > wide range of values. The recently released results for now > focus on four "process" values: Opportunity, Accountability, Prosperity > and Fair Play. If this is the best the DFL can do, then I think they're blind to what many Americans are hoping to see in a political party. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Mariachi Music?
Is there a Mexican restaurant in Minneapolis where you can go to hear Mariachi music on weekends? Also, after randomly driving around S Mpls looking for an excellent (central Mexican) taco/burrito takeout place and not finding one, can anyone offer a suggestion? Thanks in advance, Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Mariachi Music?
Shauna wrote: > is it that you couldn't find an "excellent" place, or that > you couldn't find a place at all? there are at least 3 or 4 > spots on lake street btw 1st ave and bloomington...i like the > little taco place close to lake & 3rd (can't recall the name > - anyone?) We've found places, but none that bowled me over. I have to admit that I am extremely particular about Mexican food. In thirty years of living in the greater L.A. area I found only three places that I would rate as excellent. The best we've found so far in the Metro is El Taquito Taco Shop Inc in West St. Paul. Is there anyone in the List who has eaten there and can recommend somewhere in Mpls with a similar style of cooking? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Mariachi Music?
Bill Kahn wrote; > Hopefully, Michael will get some better and more informed > responses, but I think the best thing for him to do is to > take his walkman or ipod with recorded music to just about > any of the places on Lake St. Actually, I was teaching our children about Mexico and thought it would be fun for them to hear a Mariachi band (not to mention getting to try out a new restaurant), but then Mr. Kahn doesn't think very much of homeschooling either. :-| Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Mariachi Music Bias
> Bill Kahn responds: > > Cultural diversity is the sort of thing kids learn well in a > public school setting whether it is fun with Mariachis or > something else; Racial prejudice and violence are other things that children learn in the public schools and whatever education Mr. Kahn received it doesn't seem to have instilled in him an appreciation for cultural diversity or at least for Mariachi music. Not to mention that the Minneapolis Public Schools will not even consider enrolling my son until next September, while the Houston District has already accepted him for their Virtual Academy Kindergarten and placed him in 1st grade math (two years ahead of where he would be placed in the MPS when they get around to accepting him). > I suppose the experience Atherton wants for his kids > might be fun, depending on their ages, but the underlying > themes in most Mariachi music are not very suitable or > interesting for kids--better stick to the dance music. I see, so Mariachi music is less acceptable than American Rap & Rock? At least my children would not understand the purported profanities or inappropriate themes in Mariachi music given that they are not yet fluent in Spanish. :-| Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Mariachi Music Bias
Bill Kahn wrote: > The bias suggested by Michael Atherton is ridiculous. I > simply responded to his request for good Mexican restaurants > in S. Minneapolis with Mariachi music on weekends. Mr. Kahn said, "...the underlying themes in most Mariachi music are not very suitable or interesting for kids--better stick to the dance music." This statement is a little more than just a restaurant recommendation. The fact is that Mr. Kahn's opinion of Mexican cultural traditions is either outdated or simply myopic. > Mariachi music typically is played by males recounting some > romantic adventure gone very wrong, but is probably a step > above the most violent and sexually themed rap music; neither > is appropriate for young children, I believe. I think that Mr. Kahn and others who share his perspective should take the time to educate themselves: http://www.elmariachi.com/ [Please note the number of women who are now involved in this art form.] > I'll assume that he meant Minneapolis Public Schools teach > violence and racial prejudice, since otherwise his last two > posts could be considered violations of list rules (not > my call); I believe that he is very wrong in this supposition > about MPS. What I said was, "Racial prejudice and violence are other things that children learn in the public schools..." There is a difference between what children learn through socialization and what the schools explicitly teach. I never said that the MPS "teach" violence and racial prejudice. Mr. Kahn can do his own research to realize that racial prejudice and violence are prevalent in many American middle and high schools. He might want to start with the school shootings here in Minnesota and then move on to more scholarly research. > Now this new direction to home schooling brings me back to a > question I asked some time ago about how home schooled > Minneapolis kids are socialized to deal with others of > different backgrounds. Atherton has not responded, except in > this thread to suggest that I have some prejudice against > homeschooling in general and that kids listening to songs > of heartache in a language they don't understand will do > the trick (but Atherton's kids may be at the perfect age to > start learning another language). Just how do Minneapolis > home schoolers do it? I rarely take the time to reply to Mr. Kahn's *opinions*, but just in case there are others who are equally misinformed I will this time. First, I challenge Mr. Kahn to come up with ONE, as in single, valid empirical study to show that homeschoolers lack adequate socialization. All of the evidence that I have seen indicates that homeschooled children are on par with publicly schooled children or have higher self-esteem and are as socially skilled. Here are some references you can start off with if you know nothing about this topic: http://reading.indiana.edu/ieo/digests/d94.html http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/00/0068.asp http://www.geocities.com/nelstomlinson/research.bibliography.html#shyers Mr. Kahn's perspective seems to be based on two false assumptions: 1) Socialization in the public schools is a positive experience for all students. [There are voluminous numbers of studies to show the exact opposite and don't forget the 47% dropout rate in the MPS: that's great socialization for you. :-| ] 2) Homeschooled children lack opportunities for socialization. [Research fails to validate this assumption]. I will not be continuing this exchange with Mr. Kahn. The return is not worth the investment. If anyone else wants to argue his perspective I will add a few additional comments and additional references. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Homeschooling References
For anyone interested in knowing more about homeschooling and socialization (and just to show that I'm not trying to dodge the question), here are some the most recent references I am aware of on the topic. While I would hope that there was a major study done this year by neutral researches at a highly prestigious institution, these are not quite that, but two of them were published in peer reviewed journals. I would like to emphasize that, to my knowledge, there are no studies (other than opinion pieces) that show a negative impact on the socialization of homeschooled children. If you know of one please forward it to me. Francis, D.J., & Keith, T.Z. (2004). Social skills of home schooled and conventionally schooled children: a comparison study. Home School Researcher, 16(1), 15-24. http://www.nheri.org/pdfs/161B.pdf Medlin, R.G. (2000). Home schooling and the question of socialization. Peabody Journal of Education, 75 (1 & 2), 107-123. [This article is not available online, but I can send you a copy via email.] Ray, B. R. (2004). Home educated and now adults: their community and civic involvement, views about homeschooling, and other traits. Salem, OR: National Home Education Research Institute. [you can access a summary of this report at: http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf] If anyone would like to engage in a how and why discussion of homeschooling in Minneapolis I'd be happy to. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Another DT restaurant closes
Steve Nelson wrote: > Before blaming the smoking ban I would look to the long term economic > decision made by the current administration and the fact that > they have literally drained the most of the middle class wealth. > How many meals a day do the wealthy eat? I think the term "fat cat" > refers to their bank accounts and not their waist lines. Add to that > the cost of fuel and the rumors of high heating costs this winter and > I think you will find the true culprit behind the sluggish business. > > The time has come to stop whining about taxes and start > equalizing the percentage of disposable income. Yea and what about land reform? I think that I deserve a forced time-share in one of those opulent vacation homes on the North Shore. You want whining about taxes: I'm really sick of 20% property taxes increases to pay for pension mismanagement subsidizing middle-class retirees. Why should I being paying so that people in their 70s can take month long vacation cruises? I'm sick of the middle-class, I think that we can all learn a lesson from the USSR and eliminate the upper and middle classes and all live in poverty together! Equal incomes for all! God bless Minneapolis. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Smoking ban
Jared Chester wrote: > People that don't smoke, have children or breathing issues do not have > the option to go to these establishments if there is smoking. People > that do smoke can chose to not smoke and still go. Simple, right? > > I just can't ignore the fact that I see families that go to > places such as the Chatterbox that would never ever go there before. > Besides, you can actually smell their food now. Its wonderful. No > one has banned the legal choice of smoking. The ban simply limits the > negative impact of a person's individual choice to smoke. > > Let's hear from other families or individuals with asthma or emphysema > (from smoking before) that can enjoy restaurants now that businesses > don't have to cater to the smokers. Just think of smoking as Mariachi music. You can ban it from bars and restaurants because you think it's morally offensive or you can allow people to choose not to frequent places where it is played. The latter option allows people who enjoy Mariachi music to have some places to go and hear it. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Smoking ban
Jim Bernstein wrote: > Mariachi music is not a health hazard! Second hand smoke is well > established as a public health hazard. Protecting the public from > preventable health hazards is a proper function of city government. So you see a difference between moral turpitude and health hazards? Many people don't. They see people's spiritual health to be as important as their physical health and they use that concern to justify imposing their values on others. The concept of protecting the public from preventable spiritual hazards was used in Salem. Your using physical health to impose your values on others is just as pretentious and intellectually corrupt. No matter how much you deny it, people congregating in a public place to enjoy entertainment and each other's company while smoking has no effect on anyone who does not make an explicit decision to have it do so. Anyone who does not want to be exposed to secondhand smoke has other entertainment choices and no need to limit the choices of other people. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] RE: Another DT restaurant closes
Tim Bonham wrote: > Dividing the US GNP ($11,750,000,000,000) evenly between the US > population(283,000,000) gives an income of $41,519 per person, or > over $297,000 for a family of four. > > Hardly "poverty". In fact, well into the middle-class range, > I would say. This statement is so problematic, that it scares me to think that anyone could possibly accept it at face value. First, if noting else, it's the GROSS National Product. So I'm assuming that you're also proposing to distribute debt as well? Not to mention that the two largest experiments in Marxism have failed. Perhaps you could give an example of a society that successful equalized class levels and incomes? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Homeschooling References
Madeline Douglass wrote: > Is there any information re what % of Minneapolis school > age children are home schooled? All homeschoolers are required by state law to notify the school district in which they live that they will be homeschooling, so the MPS do know how many families are homeschooling. Whether they are willing to release that information is another question. > any test scores or stats comparing the academic performance > of home schooled versus traditional schooled children in > Minneapolis? Depending on the age of the student homeschoolers are required by state law to be tested annually using a nationally normed test, but parents are not required to report scores to the district or the state. So, unless someone locally has done a study comparing public school students to homeschooled students this data is not available. > Does the Minneapolis public...or private schools do anything > to support or not support home schooling? I don't know. The MPS do have a Home School Services Dept., but I don't know what they do besides register homeschooled students. Maybe someone from the MPS can tell us? > Anything unique or special about the home schooling movement > in Minneapolis? All of the advantages the rest of us share living in the city. :-) Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Re: Why can't local campaigns be free of smear?
Farheen Hakeem wrote: [snip] > So do want to know my opinion about this? Maybe you should > come to the debate and maybe I'll make a statement. > > Gosh, I am such a tease! Teasing is not an attribute that I look for in mayoral candidates. I much prefer directness and honesty. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Re: Why can't local campaigns be free of smear?
Christine Viken wrote: > Please lighten up, Michael. > > A sense of humor is a good attribute in anyone -- candidate > AND voter. I have a sense of humor, it just doesn't usually apply to my property taxes, or police and fire fighter response times. Municipal debt is just not that funny, neither are failing retirement funds, or crime victims, etc. Of course, I do like babies and razor blade jokes, not to mention racial and religious humor. ;-) I also know some great Dean Zimmermann jokes. Did you ever hear the one about the traveling FBI agent? Am I funny enough yet? If Ms. Hakeem has something to say to us, I think she should say it. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] On the smoking ban and Porter's
> Ken Bradley writes: > I have suffer from asthma (former-smoker, I am as well to > blame) and in recent years have really disliked even going > out to bars in our city. Since the smoking ban I go out much > more, and do not turn down invitations from friends like in > the past. My clothing also spells much better when I come home. Not that I don't have sympathy for people with asthma, but what is the comparative percentage of asthma sufferers who will frequent bars compared to the percentage of smokers? What about people who suffer from peanut allegories? Should we be so sympathetic to their desire to go out to bars that we should ban peanut eating in bars? How do we allocate desire and suffering? Can't we leave this up to people's willingness to spend their dollars? If there is sufficient demand from people with asthma, wouldn't there be bars willing to accommodate them or is it just that bars are catering to a larger market? Should we ban alcohol because it's a temptation for alcoholics, as cigarette smoke is to nicotine addicts? Where does all this regulation of behavior end, when we make life so sterile that we all live to be a very monotonous 100? "-Denver weighs plan to ease marijuana laws- Voters in Denver will decide on Tuesday whether to make it legal for adults to possess as much as an ounce of marijuana." http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5696288.html Maybe life would be more enjoyable if we allow people to make their own choice of vices (public or not). Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: Asthma rates and the smoking banRE: [Mpls] On the smoking ban and Porter's
David Strand wrote: > Michael Atherton asks: > "Not that I don't have sympathy for people with > asthma, but what is the comparative percentage of > asthma sufferers who will frequent bars compared to > the percentage of smokers? " > > I don't know if the following statistics help or not > but here are some statewide percentages. > According to the Minnesota Department of Public > Health's website on asthma, one in 10 Minnesotans > statewide report having been diagnosed with asthma in > their lifetime. 7% of Minnesotans 18 or over report > current asthma. > > One in 8 students in grades 9-11 in rural Minnesota > report having asthma and asthma rates have been rising > in the state over the last 20 years particularly among > children. > > Rates are significantly higher in Minneapolis and St. > Paul and Minneapolis and St. Paul typically have > higher death rates from asthma than either suburban > areas or rural areas. > > According to a more recent report in 2003, some > schools in the Minneapolis Public School District have > asthma rates in their student population as high as > 20% with a city wide average of 12% of students > currently sufferring from asthma(which is close to the > one in eight figure found statewide in 2000). > > Women are nearly twice as likely to suffer from asthma > as men. > > In 2002, 91 Minnesotans died from asthma. > > > So, potentially, one in 10 people who would like to go > out to a bar on any given night suffer from asthma and > as many as one in eight to one in five children may > suffer from asthma if a family is going out to an > event or for dinner or a snack at a restaurant. > > Asthma is not curable but can be controlled and > reducing indoor air pollutants can reduce frequency > and severity of asthma attacks. > > Coronary heart disease is also heavily impacted by > second hand smoke as was demonstrated by a study of > heart attack rates in Helena, MT after implementation > of a smoking ban for six months in 2002. The study > found that the number of heart attacks in the city > fell by 40% compared to the average for the five > previous years for the same six month period. > > http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3557 > > A reduction of 40% percent in the number of heart > attacks in the twin cities would save all of us alot > of public and private healthcare dollars and I think > the interest in public health. It will be interesting > to see if we have a slowdown in healthcare inflation > in the region after the smoking ban has been in place > for a little while. I won't dispute these statistics, I see no need to. These statistics simply support an argument that there is sufficient market demand for smoke-free bars and restaurants. Years ago I got into an argument about why there were so few movies that accurately portrayed Asian Americans. My advice was that Asian Americans should produce their own films. I'm not egoistical enough to think that it was *my* advice, but it was a good idea and some people have followed up on it. If you haven't seen it, a good example is Picture Bride: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114129/ Back to the point, I don't see anything that would prevent people with health problems who are negatively impacted by secondhand smoke opening their own businesses. And, I don't see any reason they can't allow smokers to have some public establishments where they can smoke. [snip] > For most peanut allergy sufferers, avoiding things > with peanuts in them is sufficient, but if your child > brings home a letter asking that they not bring peanut > butter sandwiches or other peanut products with them > into the classroom due to a child in the classroom > with a severe peanut allergy, I'd reccomend taking it > very seriously. Well, I'm not going to go sneaking peanuts into the pockets of my kids clothes, even if I do love babies and razor blade jokes. ;-) Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] On the smoking ban and Porter's
Andy Driscoll wrote: > Once again, you miss the point. The core argument here is > between what the majority of citizens consider ³public² > and others consider ³private.² I haven't missed the point. It happens to be a continual pain in my aspirations for a just society. Majority rule is not absolute, it is balanced by the inalienable rights of individuals. What can be more inalienable than my right to do something that has no impact on you, unless you voluntarily choose to have it do so? If you claim that the Laws of the Land failed to acknowledge this Right, then I say they are compromised and in need of revision. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] On the smoking ban and Porter's
Mark Snyder wrote: > To me, the foundation of this disagreement lies with whether > exposure to secondhand smoke is actually harmful,... False! The fact that secondhand smoke maybe harmful is irrelevant! We all choose to do things that are harmful from the perspective of others. The things we choose maybe harmful to our health, our spirits, or our morality, but they should remain our own choices and not be dictated by the values of other people as long as no one else is affected by them involuntarily. > Debating that is outside the realm of this forum. > > So how about if we just agree to disagree and find > something else to talk about, OK? To come to a conclusion that is based on a false premise, then attempt to limit debate based on this false conclusion is implicit censorship. I think that false assumptions and censorship are necessary because the position you hold is untenable and intellectually corrupt. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] On the smoking ban and Porter's
ed light district of Amsterdam. If you enlarge it enough you might be able to see the marijuana plants growing in the window. If you so choose, you can stop in have a cup of coffee and smoke a marijuana cigarette. If you were to do so, who is harmed against their will? Michael Atherton Prospect Park PS: I don't smoke tobacco or marijuana. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] On the smoking ban and Porter's
Mark Snyder wrote: > The fact that secondhand smoke may be harmful is completely relevant. > > The reason it's so is because of what Atherton snipped out of > my comment, which was "my right to do something that has no > impact on you..." > > If you don't believe your action of smoking impacts me, then > logic would follow that you don't believe secondhand smoke is > harmful. I don't believe that people smoking in bars and restaurants impacts you AGAINST YOUR WILL. You have to make an overt decision for secondhand smoke to affect you. You have to explicitly perform a series of actions for it to have an impact on your health and you can as easily make a different set of decisions. Your argument necessitates the assumption that you have a right to ban whatever MIGHT have an effect on your health in any public space if you happen to decide to go there. Has anyone here thought this through? Doesn't anyone else see how far reaching this can be? It means that the government can ban anything that might negatively impact the health of anyone in any public space. For example, because snowmobiles have a high accident rate and someone might be skiing or snowshoeing across the path of a snowmobile we can ban them. We can ban skiing because people can be injured in a collision. We can ban public restrooms, dancing, baseball, football, parades, automobiles, bicycles, skateboards, rollerblades, public gatherings during flu season, rock concerts, and this is only using health as a basis, let alone morality. > The ban does not tell smokers they cannot smoke, so the > argument that "the things we choose maybe harmful to our > health, our spirits, or our morality, but they should remain > our own choices and not be dictated by the values of > other people" is what's irrelevant here. The ban tells smokers they cannot gather in a public place by mutual decision to enjoy the company of others while they smoke. I believe that people should have the right to socialize publicly if it has no involuntary impact on anyone else. If you've forgotten this IS guaranteed explicitly by the Constitution, "Congress shall make no law ... prohibiting the right of the people peaceably to assemble." > The only reason I've tried to "limit debate" on this issue is > because the same arguments keep getting made again and again > by the same people since this whole smoking ban issue came up > a year or so ago. > > It's long past gotten old... Yea, I'm sure that many people got bored with the fight against McCarthyism. Communists are evil, let's get on with it. Smokers are evil, we've got a ban there's no point in discussing it further. I don't think so and I will continue to argue for the rights of individuals to make their own independent choices. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] On the smoking ban and Porter's
Mark Snyder wrote: > No, it doesn't necessitate the assumption that I have a right to > ban whatever might have an effect on my health. If you leave off my stipulation that you can only ban things that effect you involuntarily, then I find your right to ban whatever might possibly have an effect on your health, bizarre in the extreme. It would allow you to ban sex outside of marriage because you might possibly become infected by a STD. Mr. Snyder's position is something that I'd more likely expect to come from the future Bush Supreme Court! > What it does necessitate is that the burden for changing > behavior should fall on the person who is creating a problem, > not the person who is affected by it. > > As most of us learned in high school civics, the saying is > "your fist ends where my face begins," not "your face ends > where my fist begins" First, it allows you to dictate what another person's "problem" is. Secondly, you have to explicitly carry out series of actions so that the "problem" that you have now defined has an effect on you. To use the fist/face analogy, you redefine fist to mean bump, and then you walk into the person, so that they have bumped you. > This is why we have noise ordinances in response to loud > parties, loud "boom cars" and so on rather than tell those > affected to simply get some ear plugs or move if they don't > like the noise. This example is not the same. A person sitting in the Amsterdam coffee shop smoking a joint has no effect on anyone outside. You have to enter the coffee shop to be affected. > This is why we have pollution control laws rather than just > tell neighboring residents to deal with it or move if they > don't like what the manufacturing plant next door is sending > out the stacks or discharging into the river. Once again, the manufacturing plant has a *direct* effect on residents. They don't have to do anything to be affected. > This is why we have traffic laws and now, red light cameras, > rather than just tell pedestrians and other drivers that they > are on their own. Or is it supposed to be my fault if I get hit > by some crazy driver because I made the "overt decision" to take > a walk? Walking by the Amsterdam coffee shop and being hit by a driver is different than DECIDING to walk into the coffee shop when you KNOW that your health maybe negative impacted. Walking into the path of an oncoming car, even in a crosswalk, is not legal in Minnesota. So do you want to ban driving to eliminate the possibility that you might be injured because you WANT to walk into the paths of oncoming cars? This is what is analogous to the smoking ban. You have to WANT to be exposed to secondhand smoke. > I could go on, but hopefully, reasonable folks get the picture at > this point. In virtually every case where personal freedoms run up > against public health, it's going to be public health that wins, > and rightly so. I would hope that *reasonable* folks would *realize* that there are serious flaws in Mr. Snyder's argument and that valid conclusions do not follow from false premises. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Strib photos clarify Mayoral contest
Matty Lang wrote: > For those who still haven't decided where their > mayoral vote will go, I suggest looking at the photos > published by the Star Tribune today. I think the > photographer, Kyndell Harkness captured it perfectly. > Two different images. > > http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5711627.html There's only one picture that shows up at this link. If you're referring to the pictures on the front page, and I think you are, then my comment would be that the editors (often) pick the pictures, normally from among several. What you see is usually what they want you to see. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Apathy wins the 2005 election
Dan McGrath wrote: > I guess most voters decided, "better the devil you know." > The ones who chose to stay home must have reached the > conclusion that it makes no difference. Some countries have laws that require voting. Should Minneapolis? Can Minneapolis legally require voting? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Apathy Wins
Chris Johnson wrote: > Election day should be a national holiday. Then everyone can be out of town on election day. Why don't we make the 4th of July election day? It'd be patriotic. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Teacher Seniority Rules Challenged
"If big-city school districts such as Minneapolis want their students to do better, they must change union contracts that lay off and transfer teachers by seniority, a new national study urged Wednesday." http://www.startribune.com/stories/1592/5731649.html It's nice to have your own analysis validated by a national study. :-) So how long is it going to take before we see any improvement in the MPS? Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] smoking and the right to privacy
Ed Felien wrote: > Let's not confuse the right to privacy and social > responsibility. There are certain things we don't > do in public because we are sensitive to other > people. Most importantly, we don't endanger other citizens. > Most laws are simply codes to enforce this social contract. > Smoking cigarettes in an enclosed place endangers the health > of other people sharing that space. If that space is public > then local governments have a responsibility to protect > the health of all citizens who use or might use that space. > If that space is private, then the government has no role and > no responsibility. First we should define public. As "public" do you mean spaces that are not privately owned or do you mean "public" as in shared by many people? If the latter, then I demand that the State ban hunting so that I will be safe to hike anywhere in public. Clearly hunting is a public health hazard. Recently, several hunters (not to mention regular citizens), have been killing by their own hunting parties. To protect the public from secondhand bullets we need to ban all hunting! Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] FYI
I would appreciate it if list members would make their subject titles more meaningful. That way I don't have to open messages to see if I want read them. In this message I've opened it and I'm still not sure if I want to pursue it because I have to click on a link to find out what it's about! Ack. Thanks, Michael Atherton Prospect Park > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jared Chester > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 8:13 AM > To: mpls@mnforum.org > Subject: [Mpls] FYI > > > NIMBY: > > http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/13221169.htm > > > Jared Chester > Nokomis East > REMINDERS: > 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at > http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in > violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] > before continuing it on the list. > > 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. > > For state and national discussions see: > http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html > For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract > > > Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic > Discussion - Mn E-Democracy > Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org > Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls > REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] How Media Lies about Public Education
Today there was an article in the Tribune, "Minneapolis classrooms are losing battle of the budge." Implicitly this article demonstrates how the media helps distort the publics' view of educational issues. http://www.startribune.com/stories/1592/5738327.html If you're aware of the 2000 referendum in which voters approved funding smaller class sizes you might also remember that one of the "promises" was that smaller class sizes would increase student achievement. What's notable about today's article is that there is no mention what-so-ever about achievement. Somehow we are to implicitly assume that large class sizes are bad and that we need to reduce them. What the article fails to note is that student achievement has been raising regardless of class sizes. So possibly, class sizes are not the quite the evil they are made out to be. It has always been my contention that class sizes are more important for the numbers of union members that they result in and not how they benefit students. Voters should think twice before once again accepting an increase in funding that does not increase student achievement and also fails to reduce class sizes. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
