Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 07:37, jacobbrett jacobbr...@hotmail.com wrote: Philip Jägenstedt wrote: On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 22:02, Simon Austin chi...@auzsoft.net wrote: In this edit, http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14510889 some want to move an existing German release event to Europe, and keep only one Europe release. I would disagree, but more eyes on it the better. I encounter the same problem when editing Chinese releases. Some albums have been released in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore with the same label and barcode. Sometimes they're printed in different places, but are otherwise identical. Having separate releases for these is way overkill IMO, as sometimes you'll have no way of telling from the physical release which MusicBrainz release it matches. As a general guideline, I'd want releases that have the same barcode, catalog number and track listing to only have one release in MusicBrainz. If it was released in multiple countries/regions, this should be represented in some other way than duplicating the whole release. I think that if they are distinguishable, for example, by being printed/manufactured in different locations for those different release countries, then they may be worth adding as separate releases. I disagree. I've seen releases which have the exact same packaging, barcode, catalog number and content but say Manufactured and printed in Taiwan vs Singapore or Hong Kong. Then there are some that are printed in Taiwan but have stickers that say only for sale in Hong Kong or Malaysia. While I wouldn't mind keeping track of the fact that something was released in several regions, duplicating releases in this situation seems way overkill to me. For now, I'm putting additional regions in annotations, and have even entered edits to merge releases like this: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 IMO, the strongest reason for this is that any change to one release would have be duplicated on the other, since the tracklisting, booklet and everything is identical. The only way to distinguish them is to buy one copy from each region and look at the fine print. Though, if it's the exact same pressing released in several neighbouring countries, then I consider that one release area and would recommend simply adding (in order): * Europe (if applicable to most of Europe), * the artist's country (if it is one of the countries that printing is released in), * the largest market/country of distribution (if released on the same date), or * the country of earliest release. I agree, and since there's no region for Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan and Singapore, I usually just use the artists region of origin. I think the correct fix here is to allow for several countries per release, but that annotations is perfectly acceptable. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On 30/05/2011 07:38, Philip Jägenstedt wrote: While I wouldn't mind keeping track of the fact that something was released in several regions, duplicating releases in this situation seems way overkill to me. For now, I'm putting additional regions in annotations, and have even entered edits to merge releases like this: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 IMO, the strongest reason for this is that any change to one release would have be duplicated on the other, since the tracklisting, booklet and everything is identical. The only way to distinguish them is to buy one copy from each region and look at the fine print. We're not duplicating releases though - at least no more than before. None of the edits I've seen have been rejecting new release events, just removing old ones. Perhaps the cause is because the release event is now higher in the chain... previously they were after the tracklist; now they're before - but in a list with all other tracklists for that release. To me what this boils down to is that you're deleting information because you don't like how it's displayed. And I don't think that should be the first option here, especially not so soon after NGS has been released. - Si ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
Update: I've finished version 2, following the ongoing discussions. Also some topics were added, please have your say. http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/Unofficial_CSG_release_names Can I also get some initial comments for a howto I've just started: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/CSG_howto /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
I mostly agree with the directon you are taking, but one big item jumped right out at me: are you seriously suggesting (in the section Multiple Artists) that we should create new artist entries called just Mannion, Remmert, Taylor, Hauptmann just because they are printed that way on the cover Three of those four artists are already in MB under their full names. I would be vehemently opposed to this. Artist names should in my view always be standardised (I do not mean in additional title information entries, I mean as actual artist entities in MB) Brant Gibbard Toronto, ON http://bgibbard.ca -Original Message- From: musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org [mailto:musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of symphonick Sent: May-30-11 10:03 AM To: MusicBrainz Style Discussion Subject: Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists Update: I've finished version 2, following the ongoing discussions. Also some topics were added, please have your say. http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/Unofficial_CSG_rel ease_names Can I also get some initial comments for a howto I've just started: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/CSG_howto /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
Update: I'm still getting used to the new format in SNG, and I never noticed the Artist as credited field, which is now what I guess you mean in the http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/Unofficial_CSG_release_names issue I mentioned. I am less opposed to that, but I still don't see any point in doing that when it is clear that the only reason for entering only a surname on the cover is lack of space for a full name rather than artistic intent Brant Gibbard Toronto, ON http://bgibbard.ca -Original Message- From: musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org [mailto:musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of symphonick Sent: May-30-11 10:03 AM To: MusicBrainz Style Discussion Subject: Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists Update: I've finished version 2, following the ongoing discussions. Also some topics were added, please have your say. http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/Unofficial_CSG_rel ease_names Can I also get some initial comments for a howto I've just started: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/CSG_howto /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
On Mon, 30 May 2011 16:27:36 +0200, Brant Gibbard bgibb...@ca.inter.net wrote: Update: I'm still getting used to the new format in SNG, and I never noticed the Artist as credited field, which is now what I guess you mean in the http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/Unofficial_CSG_release_names issue I mentioned. I am less opposed to that, but I still don't see any point in doing that when it is clear that the only reason for entering only a surname on the cover is lack of space for a full name rather than artistic intent Like all caps, you mean? Noted. There's a better explanation ( use of it?) in the howto. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
In terms of the howto page one thing I would look at is the wording: The title is in all caps on the cover, we don't enter that. under the Title Release Group section. I know that you mean to standardise capitalisation, but if I took it literally I might think you meant don't enter Symphonie Fantastique or anything else printed in all caps! Brant Gibbard Toronto, ON http://bgibbard.ca -Original Message- From: musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org [mailto:musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of symphonick Sent: May-30-11 10:03 AM To: MusicBrainz Style Discussion Subject: Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists Update: I've finished version 2, following the ongoing discussions. Also some topics were added, please have your say. http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/Unofficial_CSG_rel ease_names Can I also get some initial comments for a howto I've just started: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/CSG_howto /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
Yes, I completely agree with the Rozhdestvesnky example. Brant Gibbard Toronto, ON http://bgibbard.ca -Original Message- From: musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org [mailto:musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of symphonick Sent: May-30-11 10:30 AM To: MusicBrainz Style Discussion Subject: Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists On Mon, 30 May 2011 16:27:36 +0200, Brant Gibbard bgibb...@ca.inter.net wrote: Update: I'm still getting used to the new format in SNG, and I never noticed the Artist as credited field, which is now what I guess you mean in the http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/Unofficial_CSG_release_nam es issue I mentioned. I am less opposed to that, but I still don't see any point in doing that when it is clear that the only reason for entering only a surname on the cover is lack of space for a full name rather than artistic intent Like all caps, you mean? Noted. There's a better explanation ( use of it?) in the howto. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
On Mon, 30 May 2011 16:32:04 +0200, Brant Gibbard bgibb...@ca.inter.net wrote: In terms of the howto page one thing I would look at is the wording: The title is in all caps on the cover, we don't enter that. under the Title Release Group section. I know that you mean to standardise capitalisation, but if I took it literally I might think you meant don't enter Symphonie Fantastique or anything else printed in all caps! I see. Suggestions for better wording? My brain has stopped working. Also, I'm Swedish. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
2011/5/30 symphonick symphon...@gmail.com On Mon, 30 May 2011 16:32:04 +0200, Brant Gibbard bgibb...@ca.inter.net wrote: In terms of the howto page one thing I would look at is the wording: The title is in all caps on the cover, we don't enter that. under the Title Release Group section. I know that you mean to standardise capitalisation, but if I took it literally I might think you meant don't enter Symphonie Fantastique or anything else printed in all caps! I see. Suggestions for better wording? My brain has stopped working. Also, I'm Swedish. The title is in all caps on the cover, we don't enter that way. But I'am French, so my suggestion may not be much better than yours :-) What about also putting an example? -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
Perhaps something like: The title is in all caps on the cover, but we normally standardise capitalisation unless there is a strong reason to believe that the musicians (as opposed to the cover designer) intended to appear that way. Brant Gibbard Toronto, ON http://bgibbard.ca -Original Message- From: musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org [mailto:musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of symphonick Sent: May-30-11 10:45 AM To: MusicBrainz Style Discussion Subject: Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists On Mon, 30 May 2011 16:32:04 +0200, Brant Gibbard bgibb...@ca.inter.net wrote: In terms of the howto page one thing I would look at is the wording: The title is in all caps on the cover, we don't enter that. under the Title Release Group section. I know that you mean to standardise capitalisation, but if I took it literally I might think you meant don't enter Symphonie Fantastique or anything else printed in all caps! I see. Suggestions for better wording? My brain has stopped working. Also, I'm Swedish. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:01:12 +0200, Brant Gibbard bgibb...@ca.inter.net wrote: Perhaps something like: The title is in all caps on the cover, but we normally standardise capitalisation unless there is a strong reason to believe that the musicians (as opposed to the cover designer) intended to appear that way. Taken. But what do you mean with an example? I think you have to visit the chandos page to see the cover. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
On Mon, 30 May 2011 16:55:01 +0200, Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com wrote: What about also putting an example? Sorry, it was you who were asking for an example. Explain. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 14:24, Simon Austin chi...@auzsoft.net wrote: On 30/05/2011 07:38, Philip Jägenstedt wrote: While I wouldn't mind keeping track of the fact that something was released in several regions, duplicating releases in this situation seems way overkill to me. For now, I'm putting additional regions in annotations, and have even entered edits to merge releases like this: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 IMO, the strongest reason for this is that any change to one release would have be duplicated on the other, since the tracklisting, booklet and everything is identical. The only way to distinguish them is to buy one copy from each region and look at the fine print. We're not duplicating releases though - at least no more than before. None of the edits I've seen have been rejecting new release events, just removing old ones. Perhaps the cause is because the release event is now higher in the chain... previously they were after the tracklist; now they're before - but in a list with all other tracklists for that release. To me what this boils down to is that you're deleting information because you don't like how it's displayed. And I don't think that should be the first option here, especially not so soon after NGS has been released. This is not really new for NGS, but it is true that it was cheaper to have multiple release events before NGS, so there was less motivation to clean up incorrect or redundant release events. In my vocabulary, there really is just 1 release when two copies are identical in all respects (content, packaging, barcode, label, catalog number) except for where it was printed and sold. This is really different pressings/printings of the same release, not separate releases. I think the correct fix is to allow multiple countries on a single release, and have filed a feature request for that: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-2417 Until we have that, I think it is better, on balance, to keep this information in annotations. You're of course free to vote no to http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 if you disagree. -- Philip Jägenstedt ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
2011/5/30 symphonick symphon...@gmail.com On Mon, 30 May 2011 16:55:01 +0200, Frederic Da Vitoria davito...@gmail.com wrote: What about also putting an example? Sorry, it was you who were asking for an example. Explain. Example: (...) so that the printed title SYMPHONIE FATASTIQUE becomes Symphonie Fantastique in MusicBrainz :-) I think it is especially useful because we can't be sure the example link will still work in some time. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
If you mean an example where all caps would be appropriate? I can't off-hand think of a classical example. Most of the cases I have heard people mention with weird capitalization, deliberately strange spellings or punctuation and the like were popular music (frequently rap or Japanese popular music). I think in your particular example it's pretty obvious that the caps are there because the cover designer wanted it that way, not because Berlioz or Rozdhestvensky had strong feelings on the issue. Brant Gibbard Toronto, ON http://bgibbard.ca -Original Message- From: musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org [mailto:musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of symphonick Sent: May-30-11 11:05 AM To: MusicBrainz Style Discussion Subject: Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:01:12 +0200, Brant Gibbard bgibb...@ca.inter.net wrote: Perhaps something like: The title is in all caps on the cover, but we normally standardise capitalisation unless there is a strong reason to believe that the musicians (as opposed to the cover designer) intended to appear that way. Taken. But what do you mean with an example? I think you have to visit the chandos page to see the cover. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
On Mon, 30 May 2011 17:16:24 +0200, Brant Gibbard bgibb...@ca.inter.net wrote: If you mean an example where all caps would be appropriate? I can't off-hand think of a classical example. Most of the cases I have heard people mention with weird capitalization, deliberately strange spellings or punctuation and the like were popular music (frequently rap or Japanese popular music). I think in your particular example it's pretty obvious that the caps are there because the cover designer wanted it that way, not because Berlioz or Rozdhestvensky had strong feelings on the issue. Sorry, I was getting your answer mixed up with Frederic's. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
Hello, On 30/05/11 17:14, Philip Jägenstedt wrote: In my vocabulary, there really is just 1 release when two copies are identical in all respects (content, packaging, barcode, label, catalog number) except for where it was printed and sold. This is really different pressings/printings of the same release, not separate releases. I think the correct fix is to allow multiple countries on a single release, and have filed a feature request for that: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-2417 Until we have that, I think it is better, on balance, to keep this information in annotations. You're of course free to vote no to http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 if you disagree. Just wanted to express that I completely agree with this point of view. -- kuno / warp. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Release Country: What's preferred, Europe or all countries we can find even small evidence for?
On 05/30/2011 08:14 AM, Philip Jägenstedt wrote: This is not really new for NGS, but it is true that it was cheaper to have multiple release events before NGS, so there was less motivation to clean up incorrect or redundant release events. In my vocabulary, there really is just 1 release when two copies are identical in all respects (content, packaging, barcode, label, catalog number) except for where it was printed and sold. This is really different pressings/printings of the same release, not separate releases. I think the correct fix is to allow multiple countries on a single release, and have filed a feature request for that: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-2417 Until we have that, I think it is better, on balance, to keep this information in annotations. You're of course free to vote no to http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14527547 if you disagree. +1 for multiple release country and date Alex / caller#6 ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
Hallo, symphonick: Update: I've finished version 2, following the ongoing discussions. Also some topics were added, please have your say. http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/Unofficial_CSG_release_names I'm entering recording location from the booklet in the annotation, since there's no way to record that in MB: Recorded in Stockholm Concert Hall 4-9 November 1991 Well, that's only partially true. You can enter the dates (at least the month) as begin and end dates on performance relationships. Can I also get some initial comments for a howto I've just started: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/CSG_howto Regarding the release event part: ℗ does not necessarily denote the release date of the release you are entering but the year of the first publication of the recordings on your release. Do not use this year as in the release event unless you're absolutely certain. This should prevent a great deal of wrong release dates on re-issues, releases which were first released on vinyl, ... -- Wieland / Mineo pgp76TQliOBFD.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] CSG: research for Release names artists
On Mon, 30 May 2011 18:42:00 +0200, Wieland Hoffmann themi...@googlemail.com wrote: I'm entering recording location from the booklet in the annotation, since there's no way to record that in MB: Recorded in Stockholm Concert Hall 4-9 November 1991 Well, that's only partially true. You can enter the dates (at least the month) as begin and end dates on performance relationships. Yes. I meant recording location specifically. I'll see if I can make that clearer. http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:symphonick/CSG_howto Regarding the release event part: ℗ does not necessarily denote the release date of the release you are entering but the year of the first publication of the recordings on your release. Do not use this year as in the release event unless you're absolutely certain. This should prevent a great deal of wrong release dates on re-issues, releases which were first released on vinyl, ... Yeah. Straight from Brian's old proposal BTW. /symphonick ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] RFV: Add Secondhandsongs Relationship Type
As more than 48 hours have passed, this proposal has passed. If you want to add it yourself now, feel free (otherwise I'll do it later). Nikki Aurélien Mino wrote: Summary: Addition of a Work-URL relationship type to link works at the Secondhandsongs database. See RFC and proposal wiki for more details: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:Secondhandsongs_Relationship_Type The expected passage date for the RFV: 30-05-2011 (2 days) - Aurélien / murdos ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
