Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[JohnK]

I do not know how to properly applaud Dalibor. It seems such an empty thing 
coming from myself. I am just an observer.
However, I am so absolutely impressed with what he has done. It quite goes 
beyond the obsessive amateur radio guys filling a room with gear, the amateur 
scale-railroad enthusiasts who fill a workshop and make ride-on trains. We have 
all seen TV docos and interviews with such people.
Dalibor seems to have had an idea and made it into a dream and then is well on 
the way to realising that potential. He seems to have kept his feet on the 
ground.
Perhaps I feel this way because my wife and I have 10 minutes ago  [together] 
read the book "What do you do with an IDEA?", Kobi Yamada, illus Mae Besom, 
2014. [Don't overlook another one by the pair - "What do you do with a 
problem?" and perhaps "The most Magnificent Thing", Ashely Spires.]

I know that there have been video snippets of Dalibor's work, but it warrants a 
full documentary.  I hope that there is someone in the loop who can do some 
Life Writing (to use the more modern term for a bio and auto-bio etc). And it 
needs to be done now, progressively, not in 20 years.

I think that the Japanese concept of "Living National Treasure" applies to 
Dalibor. "Well done, that man!" as the Brits might say.
His staff and family deserve some accolades too of course.


John Kaesehagen
Australia.





  - Original Message - 
  From: Dalibor 
  To: neonixie-l 
  Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 4:46 AM
  Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes


  Hello!


  I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of someone who spent 
last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-)


  IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so cheap, even 
in 60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8 (equal to today's 
$64) when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no mercury. Large tube 
(B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the nixie tubes were 
cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R engineers and whole 
tube backing industry. They were produced in large quantities for lot of 
equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for digital clocks, they 
were simply expensive for consumer market.
  You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly russian tubes - 
their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists willing to pay for 
it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large volumes in soviet 
central planned economy, even when the demand was decreasing - this is why 
there are still full stocks of them in former soviet countries.


  You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont have much new 
technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The use of 
computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new technologies like 
laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction, jigs..). There 
are tens of operations involved in the assembly/sealing/pumping procedures - 
the quantity of machines needed for automated line would be big and their price 
very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few $M would be necessary just for the 
machinery. You would also soon find that automation make demands on supplier's 
tolerances ( e.g. glass thickness, diameter) which is beyond their standard 
production capabilities = back to hand processing.. This is one of the reason 
why large factories like Blackburn had own facilities for production of all the 
raw materials/prefabs.
  Last year, I had a meeting with people from german company producing 
glassworking machines - simple semiautomated machine just for sealing operation 
(stem/envelope) which still needs operator starts at $250.000 and its 
production capacity is not so high (my estimation was 30 tubes/hour). And this 
is one of very few pieces of equipment you can purchase, the rest is necessary 
to develop - according to your specifications and process description.


  But even if you had a fully equiped factory now, it would take you long time 
to get to working nixie tubes. It is not about machines, but about the 
operator/R - you need to know when the tube is sufficiently degassed before 
filling, what purity of the raw material is necessary, purity of the gases, 
time for aging etc.. Many factors, each of them can make your tube prone to 
failure. Not immediately, but after year of operation for instance - your 
backers will not wait years until you come up with working combination..


  Some data from our business:
  - Our price for a tube is now set to $145.
  - We make around 130 tubes per month (+ handful of clocks) with monthly 
revenue of around 20.000 USD.
  - We are now a team of 5 people and this production volume makes us really 
busy (I work 7 days a week, all day long).
  - We need 250 square meters (2700sqft) of space for our current equipment.
  - As for the "butique price" - my monthly net salary is $384, I 

RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Jeff Walton]

Dalibor’s information is surprisingly candid.  He is also quite correct that 
there are many operations such as this which are extremely labor intensive.  
His videos are very educational and tell you a lot about what it will take to 
even begin to make Nixies.  The investment to justify more automation is based 
on volume production and the ability to reach a “critical mass” where 
production volumes and demand at a market price will generate sufficient 
capital to purchase machinery and support the overhead of a highly specialized 
operation.  The economics of such a market do not exist (IMHO) for anything 
beyond a “boutique” or “cottage” industry, as we call them.  There is certainly 
sufficient economy to support small operations such as Dalibor’s but I think 
that mass producing tubes simply does not have the demand that it would take to 
get the price down to the price levels suggested.

 

Forgetting about the economics, it has taken Dalibor 5 years of hard work to 
learn some of the lost art of producing a product which actually requires a 
great deal of expertise in materials, gasses and a level of cleanliness that he 
is just discovering. 

 

I come from the semiconductor industry where I learned that the electrical 
design of the chip is actually only a very small fraction of what it takes to 
make a viable product.  The physics of the materials and the manufacturing 
skills required to maintain such an operation demand that there be a market for 
billions of parts.  For reliability, one will never get past very low 
production and yield without the knowledge and ability to control the 
cleanliness of the manufacturing environment and material content.  It is very 
surprising that Dalibor has been able to achieve as much as he has demonstrated 
in such a short time.

 

If you study any high tech product, you either stay small and specialized or 
you get big and produce a incredible quantities for a market that is demanding 
it.  The reason that nixies were displaced in the first place is because there 
was market demand for a much more efficient, mass producible product such as 
the LED display.  Those did not happen overnight, either.  I was selling low 
performance LED displays in the 70’s which were still succeeding against nixies 
on reliability, but mostly on the ease of use in designs.  Nixies are a 
specialty that is for a niche market that is consuming them based on the look 
and is willing to pay a higher price for something unique.  In other words, I 
don’t see a mass market because I can’t name enough advantages for a Nixie 
display over another technology.  Business decisions are not made just because 
a product looks cool.  There are too many cons for use of Nixies in modern day 
commercial products.

 

There will, however, be a good market for Nixies among the hobby builders and 
retro aficionados.   The market could support a few operations like Dalibor’s.  

 

So, when someone comes up with a RELIABLE $25 nixie tube that looks good, I 
will buy a bunch.  And I would do it quickly because at that price, I know that 
the seller will run out of money very fast…

 

Jeff

 

From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Dalibor
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 2:17 PM
To: neonixie-l
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

 

Hello!

 

I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of someone who spent 
last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-)

 

IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so cheap, even in 
60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8 (equal to today's $64) 
when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no mercury. Large tube 
(B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the nixie tubes were 
cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R engineers and whole 
tube backing industry. They were produced in large quantities for lot of 
equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for digital clocks, they 
were simply expensive for consumer market.

You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly russian tubes - 
their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists willing to pay for 
it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large volumes in soviet 
central planned economy, even when the demand was decreasing - this is why 
there are still full stocks of them in former soviet countries.

 

You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont have much new 
technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The use of 
computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new technologies like 
laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction, jigs..). There 
are tens of operations involved in the assembly/sealing/pumping procedures - 
the quantity of machines needed for automated line would be big and their price 
very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few 

[neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Dalibor]

Hello!

I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of someone who 
spent last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-)

IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so cheap, even 
in 60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8 (equal to today's 
$64) when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no mercury. Large 
tube (B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the nixie tubes 
were cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R engineers 
and whole tube backing industry. They were produced in large quantities for 
lot of equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for digital 
clocks, they were simply expensive for consumer market.
You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly russian tubes - 
their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists willing to pay 
for it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large volumes in 
soviet central planned economy, even when the demand was decreasing - this 
is why there are still full stocks of them in former soviet countries.

You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont have much new 
technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The use of 
computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new technologies like 
laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction, jigs..). 
There are tens of operations involved in the assembly/sealing/pumping 
procedures - the quantity of machines needed for automated line would be 
big and their price very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few $M would be 
necessary just for the machinery. You would also soon find that automation 
make demands on supplier's tolerances ( e.g. glass thickness, diameter) 
which is beyond their standard production capabilities = back to hand 
processing.. This is one of the reason why large factories like Blackburn 
had own facilities for production of all the raw materials/prefabs.
Last year, I had a meeting with people from german company producing 
glassworking machines - simple semiautomated machine just for sealing 
operation (stem/envelope) which still needs operator starts at $250.000 and 
its production capacity is not so high (my estimation was 30 tubes/hour). 
And this is one of very few pieces of equipment you can purchase, the rest 
is necessary to develop - according to your specifications and process 
description.

But even if you had a fully equiped factory now, it would take you long 
time to get to working nixie tubes. It is not about machines, but about the 
operator/R - you need to know when the tube is sufficiently degassed 
before filling, what purity of the raw material is necessary, purity of the 
gases, time for aging etc.. Many factors, each of them can make your tube 
prone to failure. Not immediately, but after year of operation for instance 
- your backers will not wait years until you come up with working 
combination..

Some data from our business:
- Our price for a tube is now set to $145.
- We make around 130 tubes per month (+ handful of clocks) with monthly 
revenue of around 20.000 USD.
- We are now a team of 5 people and this production volume makes us really 
busy (I work 7 days a week, all day long).
- We need 250 square meters (2700sqft) of space for our current equipment.
- As for the "butique price" - my monthly net salary is $384, I get paid 
since February 2017 ;-) But my people's salary is above average (for a 
given profession and our region).
- I invested around $80.000 from my personal savings on the beginning

I know that if I want to really succeed and earn money, I need to cut down 
the production costs. So I am step by step making our manufacture efficient 
with the intention to make our nixie tubes less expensive one day. I am 
investing our profit back to tooling/equipment, I am for example working on 
a high vacuum rotary manifold for carousel pumping machine with higher 
production capacity. I recently reverse-engineered Philips vacuum locking 
mechanism (tube clamping) for the same machine. But I am not sure if it is 
possible to make nixie tubes for below $60-80 even with high level of 
automation.

I hope it doesnt sound too discouraging ;-) just my $0.02

best regards,

Dalibor Farny
 

On Wednesday, 19 April 2017 11:52:06 UTC+2, Aiden Koh wrote:
>
> I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.
> With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M 
> inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc). 
> I don't compromise on quality. hence, it will be built with parts mostly 
> sourced from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified.
>
> However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the 
> minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with 
> the project when I know that there is enough interest.
>
> What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show 
> your 

[neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

W dniu czwartek, 20 kwietnia 2017 11:26:15 UTC+2 użytkownik SWISSNIXIE - 
Jonathan F. napisał:
>
> Dalibors tubes are wonderful and perfect, and the price is very reasonable 
> no boubt about that. 
>
> If there were newly made tubes in size of Z566M or ZM1042 this would be 
> perfect, the Dalibor tubes are rather big, and for a clock to place on your 
> desk or so they are maybe to big. Tubes in size of 30mm digits would be 
> very nice and good looking for projects, if they were affordable. 
>
Making a tube based on Z566M is a great idea.
Firstly, if the B13B socket would be used, the new tubes could be easily 
integrated in existing clocks (or perhaps even still functioning lab 
equipment), as it is most popular for medium sized tubes.
Secondly, Z566M is (in my opinion) the most beauftiful tube existing with 
perfect digits shape and tube diameter/height proportion. Z568M is very 
similar, but looks "fatter", not mentioning the price and avaibility 
difference. 
And I agree that they have a good size for a clock - a Z568M clock can 
easily be wider than 0,5m, which is gigantic!

But still the most important thing is if and when the new tubes would be 
ready including their operating life tests.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Constant current source design

[Nick Sargeant]

Oh, I could tell you some stories. When we did some early ships of advanced 
workstations to universities, I had a bunch of complaints from Cambridge 
University that their optical mice were failing randomly. I phoned the lab 
tec to find out what was going on .. these mice used two colours of LED, 
and a reflective pad with a grid of lines on. So, he told me that one in 
particular was random, jerky, and sometimes the mouse pointer wouldn't move 
at all. I asked him for the serial number of the failing mouse (thinking 
was there a bad batch?) .. he said Hang on, just have to shut the blinds so 
I can read the number - sunlight is too strong ... (a long pause) ... oh, 
wait, it's working now. 

And that was a leading academic institution. Speaks to the difference 
between intelligence and common sense, I feel. 

I had another complaint from a customer somewhere in NY state that one of 
my workstations had a CRT screen where the image wobbled. Just the one. .. 
on a hunch I asked him where it was in the room. Next to a wall, he said. 
Can you move it away from the wall? Oh, look, it has stopped wobbling now. 
What's the other side of that wall? A huge transformer serving power to the 
building apparently. *sigh* 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Constant current source design

['Terry S' via neonixie-l]

There is a very similar story about an early super computer developed at 
Control Data in the 70's. 

An AC outlet on the side of the machine was intended for engineering for 
debug instruments.

But nightly, when the cleaning lady plugged in her vacuum cleaner, the 
machine would crash. It took days to figure it out.

Terry

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 2:34:21 AM UTC-5, rd2...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> That story reminds me of one from work. Not Nixie-related but sorta funny 
> :)
>
> Years ago, work had an IBM System/360 ot /370 of some age; It started 
> having faults at random times, so they called in the tech. He opened the 
> system covers, tied in all the diagnostics tools - logic analyzer, etc, 
> but, zero faults happened over a couple days of his running those; So they 
> pulled them out & closed the system up. Next day a few faults happened, so 
> he was called back in, wired it up and ran it another week, no faults. He 
> pulled the test gear & closed it up, but it crashed before he even made it 
> to his car; He was called back in and of course once wired up, zero 
> errors...
>
> The light finally lit up on someone's brain in there (reports varied on 
> whose!) - That the system cover doors, when OPEN, would preclude any 
> errors, but when they were closed, errors would occur; So they looked at 
> the wiring harnesses and found the harness that was flexing when the doors 
> were closed, which had a nasty intermittent in there, that was only going 
> open circuit VERY rarely, if quite enough to be horribly ANNOYING.
>
> Systems Engineers types and so on, HATE intermittents, they're the bane of 
> their existence :P LOL And they're quite annoying to debug, sometimes you 
> can't figure out where the darned things are hiding at all.
>
>   Mark
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[NeonJohn]

On 04/20/2017 05:28 AM, Aiden Koh wrote:

> I'm sorry if I sound unsubstantial; I had once contacted stem base
> suppliers in china, and they do say that they have the product line ISO
> 9001 certified, but I have a hunch that they subcontract the orders to
> another workshop. The US manufacturers carry the parts needed, and they're
> more reputable too. High-quality parts would equate to less of a headache.

Owning a small manufacturing company, I can comment with some authority.
 I think that you're hopelessly naive about this proposal.  Do you have
at least $1 million at your disposal?  That would probably pay for a
minimally automated plant.  And maybe another $mil for R

About buying American.  Dream on.  Very few electronics products are
made in America anymore.  It's almost all done in China, Taiwan and a
few other far eastern companies.  All the US companies do is mark up the
product. A lot.  If you do find a piece manufactured in the US, you have
a fiduciary duty to your investors and stockholders to investigate far
eastern manufacture of the part.

Example: A Meanwell 15 volt 15 watt power supply.  About $25 from
Mouser.  Less than $3 directly from Meanwell when I buy 100 pieces.
Cheaper when I buy more.

Another example.  Our induction heater uses a large buck converter
toroidial inductor.  From Magnetisc, low quantity price was $35.
Somewhere around $20 in quantity 100.  We found out who their Chinese
manufacturer is.  $2, quantity 200.

The next thing you need to know about the Chinese is that they will tell
you anything you want to hear.  It's not lying in their culture.  It is
culturally very difficult to say "no".  We address that problem by
having an agent in China.  He's a Chinese citizen with an American
technical education who speaks flawless English. He actually visits the
factories and verifies that we are getting what we spec'd and what we
paid for.

Which brings up the next thing about China.  It is ALWAYS cash up front.
 Most manufacturers will accept an escrow service which gives us some
reassurance but each order is still somewhat of a shot in the dark.

Now a comment on the tube itself.  I worked for a couple of years for a
man named Ed Kay, retired Chief Engineer at Tung Sol's tube
manufacturing plant in NJ.  Being an amateur glass blower and interested
in vacuum tubes, I relentlessly picked his brain.

There were and are SO many little trade secrets that go into designing
and building a successful tube.  Take electrode treatment, for example.
You can't just have them made and use them in a tube.  There are several
chemical and mechanical treatments that must be performed first.  For
Nixie tube, Dalbor knows but he's not telling.  The point of this
paragraph is to try to convey to you just how much R you have ahead of
you before you design your piece of manufacturing equipment.

I think that a $50 tube might be possible IFF you have very deep pockets
backing you.  No way at the price you quoted.

And we still haven't addressed the potential market for Nixie tubes at
any price.  I don't think it's there.  We Nixieonians constitute a tiny
market.  What product do you see that might consume say, 100,000 tubes a
year?

John

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[JohnK]

I do wish you well with the enterprise Aiden but it sounded to me as if your 
first buyers were going to carry the venture and risk aspects.

I have knowledge of Chinese manufacturing both back when trouble-shooting and 
very recently when doing the same for a mate who imports LED lighting.
You better be prepared to pop over there a few times.

Take my comments in the context of a [very] sceptical potential customer; I'll 
probably shush now :-)

John K
  - Original Message - 
  From: Aiden Koh 
  To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 6:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes


  Hi John, you're right about how people shouldn't commit to buying a product 
that hasn't stood real life testing in the first place.
  I believe it promotes a culture where new manufacturers think it's fine to 
push out a product before its ready.
  I'm sorry if I sound unsubstantial; I had once contacted stem base suppliers 
in china, and they do say that they have the product line ISO 9001 certified, 
but I have a hunch that they subcontract the orders to another workshop. The US 
manufacturers carry the parts needed, and they're more reputable too. 
High-quality parts would equate to less of a headache.




  On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:37 PM, JohnK  wrote:

Hmm, are you talking QA or QC?
By 'product engineer' you make it sound as if you think you can treat the 
process like a 'recipe'. You are relying on experts in the various fields 
required rather than having any direct knowledge yourself? High quality 
components can make a high quality dud too by the way.
From the lack of substance in your 'blurb' you give ME the impression that 
you are a marketer by outlook.

Regardless - people should not even consider buying until the results of 
life testing is known.

John Kaesehagen
Australia
[retired trouble-shooter ISO cert electronics factory]

  - Original Message - 
  From: Aiden Koh 
  To: neonixie-l 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 7:22 PM
  Subject: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes


  I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.
  With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M 
inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc). I 
don't compromise on quality. hence, it will be built with parts mostly sourced 
from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified.

  However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the 
minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with the 
project when I know that there is enough interest.

  What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show 
your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within our grasp!


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Re: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[JohnK]

Hah! It isn't really about the QM, it is about the technology and the 
engineering knowledge. 
Your "we" had better have some real engineers in it!
You are sounding more and more like a "Product Manager" as we call them out 
here.

Once all the technologically-required steps are known, we get the Industrial 
Engineers involved in effective factory design and QC etc.
The Product Manager is the guy who BSs the buyers.

John K
  - Original Message - 
  From: Aiden Koh 
  To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 6:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes


  Hi Nicholas:) I totally agree with you; considering that what we are planning 
to undertake is building a manufacturing process ground up, there would 
definitely be a huge number of pitfalls waiting for us. Most of them would 
almost certainly be different from what Dalibor had encountered too. The best 
option then would be to learn from the quality management systems used by nixie 
tube factories of the past, and form a good one for ourselves based on our 
circumstances.




  On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Nicholas Stock  wrote:

If you can indeed deliver on that promise you will have no trouble selling 
a large quantity of tubes. However, given some of the pitfalls of new tube 
manufacturing that Dalibor has encountered (and mostly solved) then I wouldn't 
take this project on lightly.


What is your minimum threshold to cover overhead?



On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 2:50 AM, Aiden Koh  wrote:

  I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.
  With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M 
inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc). I 
don't compromise on quality. Hence, it will be built with parts mostly sourced 
from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified.

  However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the 
minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with the 
project when I know that there is enough interest.

  What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show 
your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within our grasp!


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Re: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Aiden Koh]

Hi Nicholas:) I totally agree with you; considering that what we are
planning to undertake is building a manufacturing process ground up, there
would definitely be a huge number of pitfalls waiting for us. Most of them
would almost certainly be different from what Dalibor had encountered too.
The best option then would be to learn from the quality management systems
used by nixie tube factories of the past, and form a good one for ourselves
based on our circumstances.


On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Nicholas Stock 
wrote:

> If you can indeed deliver on that promise you will *have no trouble*
> selling a large quantity of tubes. However, given some of the pitfalls of
> new tube manufacturing that Dalibor has encountered (and mostly solved)
> then I wouldn't take this project on lightly.
>
> What is your minimum threshold to cover overhead?
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 2:50 AM, Aiden Koh  wrote:
>
>> I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.
>> With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M
>> inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc).
>> I don't compromise on quality. Hence, it will be built with parts mostly
>> sourced from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified.
>>
>> However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the
>> minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with
>> the project when I know that there is enough interest.
>>
>> What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show
>> your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within our
>> grasp!
>>
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>> gid/neonixie-l/f248b78a-843d-4116-85c7-0cb7a0fcfbbd%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
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Re: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Aiden Koh]

Hi John, you're right about how people shouldn't commit to buying a product
that hasn't stood real life testing in the first place.
I believe it promotes a culture where new manufacturers think it's fine to
push out a product before its ready.
I'm sorry if I sound unsubstantial; I had once contacted stem base
suppliers in china, and they do say that they have the product line ISO
9001 certified, but I have a hunch that they subcontract the orders to
another workshop. The US manufacturers carry the parts needed, and they're
more reputable too. High-quality parts would equate to less of a headache.


On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:37 PM, JohnK  wrote:

> Hmm, are you talking QA or QC?
> By 'product engineer' you make it sound as if you think you can treat the
> process like a 'recipe'. You are relying on experts in the various fields
> required rather than having any direct knowledge yourself? High quality
> components can make a high quality dud too by the way.
> From the lack of substance in your 'blurb' you give ME the impression that
> you are a marketer by outlook.
>
> Regardless - people should not even consider buying until the results of
> life testing is known.
>
> John Kaesehagen
> Australia
> [retired trouble-shooter ISO cert electronics factory]
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Aiden Koh 
> *To:* neonixie-l 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2017 7:22 PM
> *Subject:* [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes
>
> I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.
> With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M
> inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc).
> I don't compromise on quality. hence, it will be built with parts mostly
> sourced from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified.
>
> However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the
> minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with
> the project when I know that there is enough interest.
>
> What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show
> your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within our
> grasp!
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Aiden Koh]

Hi! I believe that the design shouldn't be entirely based on the existing
tubes; if we can incorporate favorited characteristics based on general
trends, why not?
It's true, the thinner the mesh, the better. I do agree that wired anodes
like on zm1177 improve visibility. Thanks for the suggestion:) It may just
work, depending on whether manufacturing it separately from the cathode and
backplate is practical.

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Tomasz Kowalczyk 
wrote:

> W dniu środa, 19 kwietnia 2017 19:19:51 UTC+2 użytkownik
> mikeselectricstuff napisał:
>>
>>
>> Kickstarter.
>>
> I don't think kickstarter is a good idea to start a business. Of course,
> if something goes wrong and the money gets essentially wasted, no one can
> blame you if you spent it on research, and you don't risk your money. But
> you start with promising people something in return for their money. Being
> a good kickstarter requires you to provide some information about how is
> the project going as often as possible - so you have to focus not only on
> your work, but also on managing whole feedback.
>
> I personally would buy some large tubes if they were no more than 30$ and
> with high life expectancy (under proper operation with standard cleansing
> routines).
> But two questions:
> 1. Are you going to make replicas of existing tubes or some new product
> based on general trends in nixie clock societies?
> 2. If they are going to be replicas, are they going to be exact replicas -
> including the base? As far as I understand the reason why R|Z568Ms made by
> Dalibor Farny have a metal base is because making the base in original way
> is simply too hard/too expensive to make. For me this is something that
> would stop me from buying a new tube - I prefer the original tube bottoms.
> Also if they are going to be new tubes based on what is popular today -
> there is room for some additions and/or modifications. For example -
> currently the king and queen of tubes are Z568M and IN-18, they both have
> quite thick, hexagonal anode mesh - I think it is worth trying to make a
> tube with wired anode, like ZM1177 or B-5441 have, or at least cutting the
> mesh even thinner. In my opinion tubes with wired anode have better
> visibility and just look better when viewed from short distance.
>
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[neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

Dalibors tubes are wonderful and perfect, and the price is very reasonable 
no boubt about that. 

If there were newly made tubes in size of Z566M or ZM1042 this would be 
perfect, the Dalibor tubes are rather big, and for a clock to place on your 
desk or so they are maybe to big. Tubes in size of 30mm digits would be 
very nice and good looking for projects, if they were affordable. 

If you want to producte nixie tubes on a *brand commercial level* be 
prepared to pay a lot of money for licences and so. In the end, the 
question is if the marked of nixie-builders is large enough to be 
*commerical*. If you sell a tube for 25$ and lets say you sell 1000pcs of 
it, you only made 25'000$ of sales so you will not be able to live from the 
nixie production unless you are a one-man-company or not doing it for a 
living.  But if you really would make tubes in size of IN-18 at a good 
price, i would defenitely buy at leas 12-18 for my projects!


P.S. About the russian supplies. 

You know that they say "every tale has a piece of truth in it". 
An ebay seller one day told me, he was interested in buying a old factory 
where they made IN-13 bargraph tubes. He also said parts and machines are 
still there and look in working condition, but the factory remains closed 
since 1990. What if iit is true? OR what if when someone actually bought a 
factory and made tubes - for example IN-12 - there are so many around, i 
actually bought a "live-long" supply of 40, they have a old date code of 
86, but they really look like they came just out of a factory yesterday...

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[neonixie-l] Re: Remains of a pandicon calculator

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

Im currently working on a pandicon-project with the 14-digit version (sadly 
i don't have a workshop and can only do woodworks outside, so "no working" 
in winter). This calculator helped me much to learn abou the pandicon 
timing. The gap between Anode 1 and Anode 2 is really "long" (400uS) so i'm 
glad this will not be any problem for an arduino microcontroller :)

If i have time, this working calculator gets a new case and a new life by 
me, i want to leave the components alon, but i might be able to "hack" it a 
little by injecting the control-signals to display something.

A simple clock would be fairly simple :) just interface the buttons, type 
eg. 10:09:51, after a change in the seconds, interface the clear-button and 
type 10:09:52. This could be done by just soldering wires to the button 
wires and switch them by a microcontroller :)... Will try one day :)

If i remember right, i saw a nixie calculator on youtube some time ago, 
that was controllable by smartphone :)

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Re: [neonixie-l] Constant current source design

['M W' via neonixie-l]

That story reminds me of one from work. Not Nixie-related but sorta funny :)
Years ago, work had an IBM System/360 ot /370 of some age; It started having 
faults at random times, so they called in the tech. He opened the system 
covers, tied in all the diagnostics tools - logic analyzer, etc, but, zero 
faults happened over a couple days of his running those; So they pulled them 
out & closed the system up. Next day a few faults happened, so he was called 
back in, wired it up and ran it another week, no faults. He pulled the test 
gear & closed it up, but it crashed before he even made it to his car; He was 
called back in and of course once wired up, zero errors...
The light finally lit up on someone's brain in there (reports varied on whose!) 
- That the system cover doors, when OPEN, would preclude any errors, but when 
they were closed, errors would occur; So they looked at the wiring harnesses 
and found the harness that was flexing when the doors were closed, which had a 
nasty intermittent in there, that was only going open circuit VERY rarely, if 
quite enough to be horribly ANNOYING.
Systems Engineers types and so on, HATE intermittents, they're the bane of 
their existence :P LOL And they're quite annoying to debug, sometimes you can't 
figure out where the darned things are hiding at all.

  Mark

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Re: [neonixie-l] Constant current source design

[Paul Andrews]

You need a few ions around in the Neon for the cascade to start. This can 
happen for a variety of reasons including cosmic rays, background radiation or 
doping of the gas mixture with something radioactive. There is at least one 
thread on here about radioactive nixies (which sent me off on a side quest that 
hasn't quite finished yet!). Apparently 5092's are dosed with Kr-85 and have a 
little radioactivity symbol on them.

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