Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Yeah, I've seen that as well, but the ebay listing has different values
listed (see my msg above). Oh well, I guess I'll have to buy them and test
it out.

On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 11:27 AM gregebert  wrote:

> The datasheet I found online for the IN-4 has these values, so your
> resistor value will need to be increased somewhat. Remember - This is the
> operating voltage, not the ionization voltage (which is always higher).
>
>
> operating voltage Voltage drop V 150
> Cathode current nominal Cathode current nominal  mA 2.5
>
>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[gregebert]

The datasheet I found online for the IN-4 has these values, so your 
resistor value will need to be increased somewhat. Remember - This is the 
operating voltage, not the ionization voltage (which is always higher).


operating voltage Voltage drop V 150
Cathode current nominal Cathode current nominal  mA 2.5

>
>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Thanks for this helpful info! I just need to find out what tube voltage I
should expect for these tubes. Sounds like you think 165, so I'll go with
that. I can adjust later, as you say.

On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 1:36 AM gregebert  wrote:

> The exact anode voltage is not critical; it needs to be high enough to
> ensure the tube is reliably ionized over the life of the tube. 200 volts is
> a good value.
>
> What matters the most is the *current*. If the current is too high, the
> tube's life will be reduced. If the current is too low, the brightness
> might be less than desired, and your tube may develop cathode poisoning,
> where portions of some cathodes dont fully illuminate. Generally, cathode
> poisoning is reversible so dont get overly concerned about it at the moment.
>
> The simplest method to limit anode current is to use an anode resistor.
> You can calculate the approximate value of the anode resistor from basic
> circuit theory:
>
> Anode_supply_voltage = (anode_current) * (anode_resistor) - Tube voltage.
>
> If your tube's voltage is 165V, and the anode supply is 200V, and the
> ideal anode current is 2.75mA, you would need about 12.7K for your anode
> resistor. After you setup a tube and your supply, measure the voltage
> across the anode resistor to calculate the current to make sure it's the
> right value.
>
> From the formula, you will notice that variations the tube's voltage drop
> and the supply-voltage affect the current. But at higher supply voltages,
> the variations in these will have smaller impact on tube-current. My first
> nixie clock has a +340V anode supply, so I just use larger resistors and
> waste a bit more energy.
>
> Personally, I dont like anode resistors because the anode current will
> vary as the tube and power supply age, so I use a simple current limiter.
> I've posted about this a few times in the past so you can do a search for
> details. It's a matter of choice, and there are valid arguments a regulator
> is overkill.
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[gregebert]

The exact anode voltage is not critical; it needs to be high enough to 
ensure the tube is reliably ionized over the life of the tube. 200 volts is 
a good value.

What matters the most is the *current*. If the current is too high, the 
tube's life will be reduced. If the current is too low, the brightness 
might be less than desired, and your tube may develop cathode poisoning, 
where portions of some cathodes dont fully illuminate. Generally, cathode 
poisoning is reversible so dont get overly concerned about it at the moment.

The simplest method to limit anode current is to use an anode resistor. You 
can calculate the approximate value of the anode resistor from basic 
circuit theory:

Anode_supply_voltage = (anode_current) * (anode_resistor) - Tube voltage.

If your tube's voltage is 165V, and the anode supply is 200V, and the ideal 
anode current is 2.75mA, you would need about 12.7K for your anode 
resistor. After you setup a tube and your supply, measure the voltage 
across the anode resistor to calculate the current to make sure it's the 
right value.

>From the formula, you will notice that variations the tube's voltage drop 
and the supply-voltage affect the current. But at higher supply voltages, 
the variations in these will have smaller impact on tube-current. My first 
nixie clock has a +340V anode supply, so I just use larger resistors and 
waste a bit more energy.

Personally, I dont like anode resistors because the anode current will vary 
as the tube and power supply age, so I use a simple current limiter. I've 
posted about this a few times in the past so you can do a search for 
details. It's a matter of choice, and there are valid arguments a regulator 
is overkill.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

That would be sweet, but I'm going keep it simple for my 1st go-round.

I want to use these tubes:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/IN-4-IN4-4-nixie-digit-tube-display-indicator-vintage-lamp-USSR-NOS-NEW/323117163758

The listing says "lighting voltage" of 170, "operating / discharge 
sustaining voltage" of 160, and "power supply voltage" of 200. Which of 
these do you think is the voltage at the anode? I'm trying to figure out 
what my HV power supply voltage and anode resistor should be. I thought 
these tubes typically dropped 150V?

On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 5:07:20 AM UTC-4, David Pye wrote:
>
> One downside of the in4 is a supposed lack of mercury inside, and so a 
> shorter lifespan than some of the other tubes eg in12.
>
> How about a few bargraph Nixies for a graphic equaliser too? :-)
>
> On Sat, 4 May 2019, 04:03 Justin Scott, > 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks. I'm hoping to use the IN-4. I like the circular bulb and they're 
>> a good size for the front panel of a stereo.
>>
>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:05:46 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>> You mean PWM it (because they don't latch on)? Yes, this is how you dim 
>>> them. There is some anecdotal evidence to indicate that this does indeed 
>>> lengthen tube life. However, if the tube is doped with mercury, the life is 
>>> in the 100,000s of hours. For undoped tubes it is around 10,000 hours. So 
>>> let us know what tubes you plan to use. The very common (and very robust) 
>>> IN-12 are long-life. Some people find the '5' digit on them annoying...
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:

 Right. Or to turn a digit on you could switch the cathode quickly, so 
 there would be lower current on average moving through the tube. I assume 
 this would lengthen tube life, but sounds like it's not necessary.

 On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on, 
> pull it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.
>
> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>
>> Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be 
>> direct-drive, so I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch 
>> the cathode though, or can I just leave it on continuously?
>>
>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>>>
>>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being 
>>> that you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with 
>>> savings, there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current 
>>> higher 
>>> for multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is 
>>> specifically 
>>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
>>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not 
>>> to 
>>> use multiplexing.
>>>
>>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost 
>>> is a secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- 
>>> irreplaceable 
>>> nixie tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to 
>>> switch the anode. However, I have some designs that use anode 
>>> current-regulators which is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>>>
>>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are 
>>> concerned about it, be sure that your design has programmable 
>>> blanking-time, refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment 
>>> to 
>>> get the best results.
>>>
>> -- 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[David Pye]

One downside of the in4 is a supposed lack of mercury inside, and so a
shorter lifespan than some of the other tubes eg in12.

How about a few bargraph Nixies for a graphic equaliser too? :-)

On Sat, 4 May 2019, 04:03 Justin Scott,  wrote:

> Thanks. I'm hoping to use the IN-4. I like the circular bulb and they're a
> good size for the front panel of a stereo.
>
> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:05:46 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>>
>> You mean PWM it (because they don't latch on)? Yes, this is how you dim
>> them. There is some anecdotal evidence to indicate that this does indeed
>> lengthen tube life. However, if the tube is doped with mercury, the life is
>> in the 100,000s of hours. For undoped tubes it is around 10,000 hours. So
>> let us know what tubes you plan to use. The very common (and very robust)
>> IN-12 are long-life. Some people find the '5' digit on them annoying...
>>
>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>>
>>> Right. Or to turn a digit on you could switch the cathode quickly, so
>>> there would be lower current on average moving through the tube. I assume
>>> this would lengthen tube life, but sounds like it's not necessary.
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:

 Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on,
 pull it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.

 On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>
> Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be
> direct-drive, so I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch
> the cathode though, or can I just leave it on continuously?
>
> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>>
>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being
>> that you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with
>> savings, there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current 
>> higher
>> for multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is 
>> specifically
>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's
>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to
>> use multiplexing.
>>
>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost
>> is a secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable
>> nixie tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to
>> switch the anode. However, I have some designs that use anode
>> current-regulators which is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>>
>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are
>> concerned about it, be sure that your design has programmable
>> blanking-time, refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to
>> get the best results.
>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

IN-4 tubes aren’t doped with mercury.

> On May 3, 2019, at 11:03 PM, Justin Scott  wrote:
> 
> Thanks. I'm hoping to use the IN-4. I like the circular bulb and they're a 
> good size for the front panel of a stereo.
> 
>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:05:46 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>> You mean PWM it (because they don't latch on)? Yes, this is how you dim 
>> them. There is some anecdotal evidence to indicate that this does indeed 
>> lengthen tube life. However, if the tube is doped with mercury, the life is 
>> in the 100,000s of hours. For undoped tubes it is around 10,000 hours. So 
>> let us know what tubes you plan to use. The very common (and very robust) 
>> IN-12 are long-life. Some people find the '5' digit on them annoying...
>> 
>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>> Right. Or to turn a digit on you could switch the cathode quickly, so there 
>>> would be lower current on average moving through the tube. I assume this 
>>> would lengthen tube life, but sounds like it's not necessary.
>>> 
 On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
 Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on, pull 
 it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.
 
> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
> Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be direct-drive, 
> so I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch the cathode 
> though, or can I just leave it on continuously?
> 
>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
>> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
>> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
>> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not 
>> to use multiplexing.
>> 
>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
>> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable 
>> nixie tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to 
>> switch the anode. However, I have some designs that use anode 
>> current-regulators which is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>> 
>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
>> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
>> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
>> results.
> 
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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Thanks. I'm hoping to use the IN-4. I like the circular bulb and they're a 
good size for the front panel of a stereo.

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:05:46 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> You mean PWM it (because they don't latch on)? Yes, this is how you dim 
> them. There is some anecdotal evidence to indicate that this does indeed 
> lengthen tube life. However, if the tube is doped with mercury, the life is 
> in the 100,000s of hours. For undoped tubes it is around 10,000 hours. So 
> let us know what tubes you plan to use. The very common (and very robust) 
> IN-12 are long-life. Some people find the '5' digit on them annoying...
>
> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>
>> Right. Or to turn a digit on you could switch the cathode quickly, so 
>> there would be lower current on average moving through the tube. I assume 
>> this would lengthen tube life, but sounds like it's not necessary.
>>
>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on, 
>>> pull it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:

 Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be direct-drive, 
 so I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch the cathode 
 though, or can I just leave it on continuously?

 On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being 
> that you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with 
> savings, there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current 
> higher 
> for multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is 
> specifically 
> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
> use multiplexing.
>
> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is 
> a secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable 
> nixie 
> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch 
> the 
> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators 
> which 
> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>
> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are 
> concerned about it, be sure that your design has programmable 
> blanking-time, refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to 
> get the best results.
>


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RE: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[johnk]

Well, what can we say?

I suspect that he knows Spinal Tap and maybe HE was the interviewer  J

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc

 

BTW, Justin, I hope you caught my recent diatribe on Watts and Watts RMS.

 

John Kaesehagen

Australia

 

 

From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Jonathan Peakall
Sent: Friday, 3 May 2019 23:11
To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

 

Because 11 is louder. It is one more than 10! Duh!

On 5/3/2019 6:22 AM, Justin Scott wrote:

Why don’t I just make 10 a little louder and then make 10 the top number and 
make that a little louder?

 

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:52 AM Paul Andrews  wrote:

I’m going to say the obvious thing here: Surely it should show the volume as 
0-11?


On May 3, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Justin Scott  wrote:

Thanks; good advice. I am an EE with 12 years of experience and have worked 
with HV before. Built my own tube amp with 420 VDC inside. Would love to hear 
your tips. 

 

What I'm actually building is a volume display for a tube amp. When you turn 
the volume pot, a couple of nixies will display 0-99. The amp in question 
already has a transformer that delivers 220VAC, so I will be dropping and 
rectifying that to get my 180V for the nixie anodes.

 

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:01:27 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:

I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous design 
work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things that go wrong 
(line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate isolation) with very bad 
consequences. 

 

If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to make a 
line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want is for 
someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.

 

I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that ended-up 
with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful forethought. 
There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it will get you.

….clip..

 

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

You mean PWM it (because they don't latch on)? Yes, this is how you dim 
them. There is some anecdotal evidence to indicate that this does indeed 
lengthen tube life. However, if the tube is doped with mercury, the life is 
in the 100,000s of hours. For undoped tubes it is around 10,000 hours. So 
let us know what tubes you plan to use. The very common (and very robust) 
IN-12 are long-life. Some people find the '5' digit on them annoying...

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 11:01:39 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>
> Right. Or to turn a digit on you could switch the cathode quickly, so 
> there would be lower current on average moving through the tube. I assume 
> this would lengthen tube life, but sounds like it's not necessary.
>
> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on, pull 
>> it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.
>>
>> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be direct-drive, 
>>> so I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch the cathode 
>>> though, or can I just leave it on continuously?
>>>
>>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:

 Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being 
 that you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with 
 savings, there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current 
 higher 
 for multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
 designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
 minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
 use multiplexing.

 I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is 
 a secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable 
 nixie 
 tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch 
 the 
 anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators 
 which 
 is basically a switch that is not fully-on.

 Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
 about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
 refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
 results.

>>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Right. Or to turn a digit on you could switch the cathode quickly, so there 
would be lower current on average moving through the tube. I assume this 
would lengthen tube life, but sounds like it's not necessary.

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 10:33:30 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on, pull 
> it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.
>
> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>>
>> Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be direct-drive, 
>> so I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch the cathode 
>> though, or can I just leave it on continuously?
>>
>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>>>
>>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
>>> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
>>> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
>>> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
>>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
>>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
>>> use multiplexing.
>>>
>>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
>>> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
>>> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
>>> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
>>> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>>>
>>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
>>> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
>>> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
>>> results.
>>>
>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

Perhaps I misunderstand, but each digit is a cathode. To turn it on, pull 
it ground, to turn it off let it float or push it to around 80V.

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:10:15 AM UTC-4, Justin Scott wrote:
>
> Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be direct-drive, so 
> I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch the cathode though, 
> or can I just leave it on continuously?
>
> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>>
>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
>> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
>> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
>> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
>> use multiplexing.
>>
>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
>> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
>> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
>> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
>> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>>
>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
>> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
>> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
>> results.
>>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Jonathan Peakall]

Because 11 is louder. It is one more than 10! Duh!

On 5/3/2019 6:22 AM, Justin Scott wrote:
Why don’t I just make 10 a little louder and then make 10 the top 
number and make that a little louder?


On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:52 AM Paul Andrews > wrote:


I’m going to say the obvious thing here: Surely it should show the
volume as 0-11?

On May 3, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Justin Scott mailto:justin...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Thanks; good advice. I am an EE with 12 years of experience and
have worked with HV before. Built my own tube amp with 420 VDC
inside. Would love to hear your tips.

What I'm actually building is a volume display for a tube amp.
When you turn the volume pot, a couple of nixies will display
0-99. The amp in question already has a transformer that delivers
220VAC, so I will be dropping and rectifying that to get my 180V
for the nixie anodes.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:01:27 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:

I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done
some previous design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a
lot of not-obvious things that go wrong (line noise,
transients, component failure, inadequate isolation) with
very bad consequences.

If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips
on how to make a line-operated design safer and more
reliable. The last thing we want is for someone's nixie clock
to cause a fire, or worse.

I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated
circuits that ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small
explosions despite careful forethought. There's always
something you overlook, and sooner or later it will get you.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Why don’t I just make 10 a little louder and then make 10 the top number
and make that a little louder?

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:52 AM Paul Andrews  wrote:

> I’m going to say the obvious thing here: Surely it should show the volume
> as 0-11?
>
> On May 3, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Justin Scott  wrote:
>
> Thanks; good advice. I am an EE with 12 years of experience and have
> worked with HV before. Built my own tube amp with 420 VDC inside. Would
> love to hear your tips.
>
> What I'm actually building is a volume display for a tube amp. When you
> turn the volume pot, a couple of nixies will display 0-99. The amp in
> question already has a transformer that delivers 220VAC, so I will be
> dropping and rectifying that to get my 180V for the nixie anodes.
>
> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:01:27 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
>> I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous
>> design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things
>> that go wrong (line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate
>> isolation) with very bad consequences.
>>
>> If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to
>> make a line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want
>> is for someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.
>>
>> I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that
>> ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful
>> forethought. There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it
>> will get you.
>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

I’m going to say the obvious thing here: Surely it should show the volume as 
0-11?

> On May 3, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Justin Scott  wrote:
> 
> Thanks; good advice. I am an EE with 12 years of experience and have worked 
> with HV before. Built my own tube amp with 420 VDC inside. Would love to hear 
> your tips.
> 
> What I'm actually building is a volume display for a tube amp. When you turn 
> the volume pot, a couple of nixies will display 0-99. The amp in question 
> already has a transformer that delivers 220VAC, so I will be dropping and 
> rectifying that to get my 180V for the nixie anodes.
> 
>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:01:27 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
> 
>> I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous 
>> design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things 
>> that go wrong (line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate 
>> isolation) with very bad consequences.
>> 
>> If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to make 
>> a line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want is 
>> for someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.
>> 
>> I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that 
>> ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful 
>> forethought. There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it 
>> will get you.
> 
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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Thanks; good advice. I am an EE with 12 years of experience and have worked 
with HV before. Built my own tube amp with 420 VDC inside. Would love to 
hear your tips.

What I'm actually building is a volume display for a tube amp. When you 
turn the volume pot, a couple of nixies will display 0-99. The amp in 
question already has a transformer that delivers 220VAC, so I will be 
dropping and rectifying that to get my 180V for the nixie anodes.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:01:27 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:

> I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous 
> design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things 
> that go wrong (line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate 
> isolation) with very bad consequences.
>
> If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to 
> make a line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want 
> is for someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.
>
> I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that 
> ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful 
> forethought. There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it 
> will get you.
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Justin Scott]

Thank you! I completely understand now. My design will be direct-drive, so 
I won't need to switch the anode. Will I need to switch the cathode though, 
or can I just leave it on continuously?

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
> use multiplexing.
>
> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>
> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
> results.
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[David Pye]

I agree.

I can't help thinking that for a first clock a 9/12vdc powered design using
a known HV module seems to offer the safest option for people without line
voltage experience.

David

On Thu, 2 May 2019, 22:01 gregebert,  wrote:

> I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous
> design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things
> that go wrong (line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate
> isolation) with very bad consequences.
>
> If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to
> make a line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want
> is for someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.
>
> I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that
> ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful
> forethought. There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it
> will get you.
>
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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[gregebert]

I dont recommend line-operated designs unless you've done some previous 
design work at  high-ish voltages. There are a lot of not-obvious things 
that go wrong (line noise, transients, component failure, inadequate 
isolation) with very bad consequences.

If you have done a lot of past designs, I can share some tips on how to 
make a line-operated design safer and more reliable. The last thing we want 
is for someone's nixie clock to cause a fire, or worse.

I've had a few "learning experiences" with line-operated circuits that 
ended-up with sparks, smoke, and/or small explosions despite careful 
forethought. There's always something you overlook, and sooner or later it 
will get you.

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

Interesting. What about a ceramic capacitor? For example, there is this 
400V AC X2 

 
cap on digikey, though quite large at almost 25mm diameter.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 2:06:25 PM UTC-4, Dekatron42 wrote:
>
> One thing about the type of power supply that relies on a capacitor in the 
> manner that the clock design in the link from www.dos4ever.com is that 
> the capacitor will degrade over time for every voltage spike on the mains, 
> this is as designed by the capacitor manufacturers but it also means that 
> the capacitance will become lower over time as the self-healing properties 
> are not 100% so the voltage you get from this power supply will get lower 
> over time. There was a big problem with this a few years ago as the 
> capacitors that were manufactured over a time degraded faster than designed 
> so many home appliances went dead long before they were intended to (I 
> worked with smart electricity meters that were also affected by this 
> problem and it took a long time to find out that it was these capacitors 
> that were the problem). Finally they found out that there were 
> manufacturing problems of these polypropylene capacitors that meant that 
> they degraded faster than designed. The costs for repairing the electricity 
> meters were in part covered by the capacitor manufacturers but I guess that 
> it was a loss to everyone in the end. So you should count on the capacitor 
> giving up at some point, but modern capacitors nowadays take some of this 
> into account as the manufacturers realized that they had to change the 
> manufacturing process to make better and more reliable capacitors (but 
> since cost has always been the driving point for these types of components 
> they might not be so much better anyway).
>
> Do some googling on for instance "smart meter capacitive power supply 
> problems" and you'll see some discussions and documents on this.
>
> Choose a specially designed capacitor for this use and your power supply 
> will live a lot longer and don't just put any capacitor in there!
>
> /Martin
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Dekatron42]

One thing about the type of power supply that relies on a capacitor in the 
manner that the clock design in the link from www.dos4ever.com is that the 
capacitor will degrade over time for every voltage spike on the mains, this 
is as designed by the capacitor manufacturers but it also means that the 
capacitance will become lower over time as the self-healing properties are 
not 100% so the voltage you get from this power supply will get lower over 
time. There was a big problem with this a few years ago as the capacitors 
that were manufactured over a time degraded faster than designed so many 
home appliances went dead long before they were intended to (I worked with 
smart electricity meters that were also affected by this problem and it 
took a long time to find out that it was these capacitors that were the 
problem). Finally they found out that there were manufacturing problems of 
these polypropylene capacitors that meant that they degraded faster than 
designed. The costs for repairing the electricity meters were in part 
covered by the capacitor manufacturers but I guess that it was a loss to 
everyone in the end. So you should count on the capacitor giving up at some 
point, but modern capacitors nowadays take some of this into account as the 
manufacturers realized that they had to change the manufacturing process to 
make better and more reliable capacitors (but since cost has always been 
the driving point for these types of components they might not be so much 
better anyway).

Do some googling on for instance "smart meter capacitive power supply 
problems" and you'll see some discussions and documents on this.

Choose a specially designed capacitor for this use and your power supply 
will live a lot longer and don't just put any capacitor in there!

/Martin

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

I had seen that article before, but its significance to several of my 
interests hadn't really sunk in. Recently I have become more and more 
obsessed with power supplies and time bases. My father-in-law was an 
accomplished engineer. After retirement he sold various electronic gadgets, 
one of which was a small mains-powered photographic timer. I was amazed 
when he showed me inside one to see no chips and no transformer. So when I 
my interest in this stuff started, I was intrigued that I couldn't find any 
power supplies like the one he had used. Yet here it is. Furthermore, the 
guy is using the mains frequency as a time-base, something I am very 
interested in doing, since my current project is also mains-powered.

His article is very thorough, and this just got added to my to-do list of 
future projects, which is ever-increasing. I also want to use Osmond to 
design some simple PCBs on the Mac - I am interested in producing PCBs that 
are themselves a work of art (as far as I can make them), and I think this 
would be a great project for that. The more interesting things I can 
squeeze into one project, the more likely I am to work on it.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 11:37:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> That is a one tube clock. You don't need to switch the anode.
>
> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>>
>> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
>> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
>> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
>> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
>> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
>> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
>> use multiplexing.
>>
>> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
>> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
>> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
>> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
>> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>>
>> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
>> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
>> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
>> results.
>>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[Paul Andrews]

That is a one tube clock. You don't need to switch the anode.

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:43:20 AM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
> Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
> you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
> there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
> multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
> designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
> minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
> use multiplexing.
>
> I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
> secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
> tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
> anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
> is basically a switch that is not fully-on.
>
> Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
> about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
> refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
> results.
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[gregebert]

Switching the anodes is what multiplexing does, the advantage being that 
you can share the cathode logic across several tubes. But with savings, 
there is also a hidden cost: You must run the anode current higher for 
multiplexed operation versus direct-drive. If the tube is specifically 
designed to support higher peak-current for multiplexing, then there's 
minimal risk; I recall some Burroughs tubes state in the datasheet not to 
use multiplexing.

I've done a number of clock designs, all of them direct-drive. Cost is a 
secondary concern; maximizing the life of the almost- irreplaceable nixie 
tube is the overriding goal. With direct-drive, you dont need to switch the 
anode. However, I have some designs that use anode current-regulators which 
is basically a switch that is not fully-on.

Ghosting only occurs with a muliplexed display, so if you are concerned 
about it, be sure that your design has programmable blanking-time, 
refresh-rate, and on-time. You will have to experiment to get the best 
results.

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