[NSP] Re: 4mm or 6mm staples
Colin's interesting account of making staples from sheet metal is a very good reminder that this was the staple [pun unavoidable] method of making staples for historical reeds - they generally relied on the binding to keep them airtight. No reason why that shouldn't work perfectly well today, although many of todays tins are corrugated. However, the easiest source of tube fit for the job is brass or (cheaper) aluminium tube from the nearest model shop. Quite often this stuff is sourced from the US and though it may have nominal metric sizes, is often actually imperial with a 5/32 (4mm) internal diameter and a 3/16 (4.76mm) exterior. I think some experimentation and variation on the standard recommended dimensions would be really good (is anyone already doing this?) and the hand -rolled staple may be an excellent way of doing this. A final word in praise of the NPS Forum and its 'Pipe making and Maintenance' area - which is a really good place for following and preserving discussions like the present one. Francis On 27 Nov 2011, at 16:51, cwhill wrote: 3/16 is 4.76mm (so very near to 5mm) so I presume you meant that and should you downsize to 4 or try for a 5mm tube? Personally, I made my staples from a Fray Bentos pie tin lid as brass tubing was hard to get back then so never had to buy any (it worked - paint side out - as I had a drill the right size to mould it around. That was what was in my instruction book - along with getting reed cane from old flower baskets!). Current reed makers must have gone metric by now so they should know. Yes, you can get 5mm http://www.metalsmith.co.uk/metals-materials.htm BT5 on that page 500mm for £2.60 Do note that the size is external diameter so the internal bore is actually 4mm Unfortunately I don't know what your instruction book means by 3/16 (internal or external). Colin Hill On 27/11/2011 15:33, Kevin wrote: Hi to All, can any one advise me what size staples to buy for making NSP chanter reeds? in my local D.I.Y. there are brass rods of 4mm or 6mm, but i read in my booklet on making reeds that it is 3/16th (imperial) and my chart says 3/16th is 4mm. so what do i go for? is 6mm too big or is 4 too small? can one get 5mm rods now? any advice on what to buy. thanks kevin -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4641 - Release Date: 11/26/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4641 - Release Date: 11/26/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4641 - Release Date: 11/26/11
[NSP] Re: Alice Burn Emily Hoile
Good result, Anthony! This lovely item can be heard for the next 6 days at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b014fj7j Emily and Alice's slot is at 1.09 Francis On 13 Sep 2011, at 22:58, Anthony Robb wrote: Some might be interested to know I sent a couple of tracks recorded recently by Emily Alice down to Radio 3. The response has been very positive and as a result they will be playing on this week's 'In Tune' (Thurs 15 Sept. 16:30 - 18:30 local time). Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Alice Burn Emily Hoile
On 16 Sep 2011, at 13:18, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: Why did I get Rachmaninov? Richard (Puzzled in Quebec) Because that is the first item on in the programme. For Alice and Emily go to 1.09 (hours and minutes). Good luck Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Farewell to Whisky - Niel Gow
Thanks, all, for the many interesting and informative responses! Francis On 13 Sep 2011, at 17:54, Francis Wood wrote: The note accompanying the fine tune 'Farewell to Whisky' appearing in the Gow 5th collection states: This tune alludes to prohibiting the making of Whisky in 1799. It is expressive of a Highlander's sorrow on being deprived of his favourite beverage. Also in the 5th collection is the remedy to this distressing situation: 'Whisky Welcome back again', with the note: Alluding to permitting Whisky to be distilled in the year 1801. It is a merry dancing Tune. I seem to remember reading that the prohibition was caused by a shortage of grain. Can anyone provide anything more specific about the relevant circumstances in 1799 - 1801? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Farewell to Whisky - Niel Gow
The note accompanying the fine tune 'Farewell to Whisky' appearing in the Gow 5th collection states: This tune alludes to prohibiting the making of Whisky in 1799. It is expressive of a Highlander's sorrow on being deprived of his favourite beverage. Also in the 5th collection is the remedy to this distressing situation: 'Whisky Welcome back again', with the note: Alluding to permitting Whisky to be distilled in the year 1801. It is a merry dancing Tune. I seem to remember reading that the prohibition was caused by a shortage of grain. Can anyone provide anything more specific about the relevant circumstances in 1799 - 1801? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: (no subject)
Is there an obvious repertoire of tunes for this useful variant? Francis On 8 Sep 2011, at 10:40, Richard York wrote: I wonder when someone will develop the double action bellows - one to inflate the pipes, another to fit a vacuum cleaner attachment, which if you think about it could look remarkably like a large bagpipe set with an extra long open ended chanter... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Playing with a man-ometer . . .
You really have to see this. A great demonstration of playing pressure, from full glory to Pipers' Droop. Especially the ending: http://youtu.be/fPedwnc5e_s Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Our very own . . .
A familiar figure appears on the Home Page of the British Library. See under Latest news: http://www.bl.uk/ Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Trivia
Since it's August . . . . What tunes does your dog prefer? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
I do very much agree with what John Gibbons said a few days ago: If the NPS offered a trophy of a silver cup full of beer for anyone playing W on the W verbatim from memory, nobody would ever want to win it. It doesn't work, whether in classical, modern or traditional terms. Is it really possible that Mr. Dunk is being misjudged? I have two thoughts on this: - Should there be a 'Dunk Cup’, to be awarded for future attempts at what Gilbert Askew described as “successful essays in what may be termed the Northumbrian mode? - If 'Whin Shields on the Wall' is regarded as a 'successful essay', what on earth would an unsuccessful essay be like? I look forward to hearing Dave Shaw's recomposition of the piece. We can then compare it with Askew's own. Francis On 17 Jul 2011, at 13:47, Dave Shaw wrote: Francis Wood said; I must say, I greatly prefer Gilbert Askew's re-working of this tune to the reworking of the abc below! Well you would, it has the familiarity of long association. What Dunk submitted in manuscript to the NPS was no scribble. Its appearance looks plausible and musically literate and there's no doubt at all as to the intentions of its content. The problem is that it remains musical nonsense. I haven't seen the original ms, but in the abc of it the traditional tune form is immediately obvious. As I said , all that is missing is the punctuation. The question must therefore be why did Askew choose to re-write the tune or could he not see what should have been staring him in the face either. And Barry; I would like to hear an audio clip of your version. I for one do not read well enough to appraise your ABC I'll give it a run through on the pipes in the next day or two and try to record it. So far I've only played it from the abc file on the computer (melody assistant) as Rapper dancing at a very wet Rothbury festival has left little time available this weekend. I did run into Hamish Moore though who was playing bodhran with the Irish dancers band. Pipe makers on their days off eh? If I get it done I'll stick it on some web space and let you know. I'm not going down the utube route. Cheers, Dave Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles www.daveshaw.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
On 17 Jul 2011, at 14:10, Francis Wood quoted John Gibbons: If the NPS offered a trophy of a silver cup full of beer for anyone playing W on the W verbatim from memory . . . ., Just as an afterthought, John, . . . were you suggesting that the cup full of beer be awarded before, or after playing W on the W? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
On 17 Jul 2011, at 13:47, Dave Shaw wrote: The question must therefore be why did Askew choose to re-write the tune or could he not see what should have been staring him in the face either. Perhaps there are two distinct questions here. So here's an attempt at two answers: - The question must therefore be why did Askew choose to re-write the tune Because he found some valuable ideas in his friends very dysfunctional tune, and thought it worth reworking into a form which generations of pipers have since found very appealing. - could he not see what should have been staring him in the face either. Perhaps he saw it very clearly indeed and didn't fully like what he saw. So another more relevant question: If Gilbert Askew hadn't extended this kindness, would anybody now bother to play what Dunk actually wrote? Have a look at that on the Forum where Julia has posted the manuscript: http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/pipersforum/viewtopic.php?f=18t=206 I hope the link works. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Hello Dave and others, I must say, I greatly prefer Gilbert Askew's re-working of this tune to the reworking of the abc below! What Dunk submitted in manuscript to the NPS was no scribble. Its appearance looks plausible and musically literate and there's no doubt at all as to the intentions of its content. The problem is that it remains musical nonsense. It's interesting that Askew (who edited the NPS Tunebook in 1936) found value in this tune, as well as Dunk's other included tune, the Lass of Falstone. I don't know whether that one required similar remedial attention. These are his remarks in the introduction: The editor also wishes to thank his friend Mr. John L. Dunk for the Whinshields Hornpipe [Askew has also changed the title here] and the Lass o' Falstone, two very successful essays in what may be termed the Northumbrian mode, by the author of , Hyperacoustics Tonality - its Rational Basis and Elementary Development and other works dealing with the philosophic aspect of music. Perhaps it was really a question of you hum it and I'll write it. Is it possible that, after all, Dunk couldn't accurately represent the tune himself in written form? Incidentally the choice of tunes in that collection wasn't Askew's alone. Several other members were also acknowledged in this task, including Jack Armstrong who could certainly recognise a tune that was good, and logically one that was not. So what was really going on here? Francis On 16 Jul 2011, at 23:11, Dave Shaw wrote: Francis Wood wrote; I'm not convinced that this is anything else other than nonsense. It starts familiarly but then goes completely mad ( a brief allusion to 'Il est né, le Divin Enfant' creeps in) and goes all over the place. I agree, though . . . a very interesting character! Mr Dunk was heavily involved in the highbrow music scene He may have thought he was, but did the highbrow music scene agree? Well, the educated musicians of Dunks day tended to be snobbish and condescending towards folk music and musicians. We would do well to avoid that pitfall in return. Having looked at Dunks ms in abc then it does appear on the surface to have no merit. If however you realise that the thing has no musical punctuation at all then you have a way into the piece. His ms may have been a work in progress, and handed over with a few verbal instructions which were never passed down the line. Add normal form to it and bar 9 needs a first part repeat, with 10 for the second time thro. Same for bars 18 and 19. This left the end still confused but I realised that bars 26 abd 27 were the first time and 28 and 29 the last time thro, played slowly for a big finish. Probably you would play the piece 2As, 2Bs over with 2Cs to finish with a flourish. Here it is, amended. I hope it reads ok as melody leaves a lot of dross which I had to edit out. Pay more attention next time, because it works ok even if a little unfamiliar. Cheers, Dave X:Music edited by Dave Shaw T:Whin Shields on the Wall C:John L. Dunk Q:1/4=104 M:2/4 L:1/16 K:G d2 |:B2G2 G2B2 |A2D2 D2D2 | G2G2 GABc |d3B d2g2 |e2c2 c2e2 | d2G2 G2AB |c2E2 E2FG |[1ABcd e2fg :|[2 decB ABGF |:G3E G2B2 |e2B2 B2e2 | d3A d2e2 |a2e2 e2f2 |g3e g2f2 | e2d2 c2B2 |A2d2 d2fd |[1A2d2 e2fg :|[2 a3g gfed |:B2G2 GABG |A2D2 D2EF | G2G2 GABc |d6 g2 |e2c2 c2de | d2G2 G2AB |[1c2B2 A2G2 |dedB GAGE :|[2 c3F Fd2G-|G3E G4 |] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
On 15 Jul 2011, at 09:48, Matt Seattle wrote: I am fascinated by the 'soup' that accompanies traditional tunes, the lore which has its own reality but is different from 'facts'. It is not inconceivable that Shield composed the Morpeth Rant; I have seen no evidence that convinces me he did; and does it matter? Matt's question raises the interesting issue of how tunes by known composers become 'traditional tunes' (what does that really mean?) and also how they evolve and are over-composed by subsequent players and editors. One good example of this is the Hesleyside Reel by Thomas J. Elliott of Hexham, acknowledged and thanked in the 1936 edition of the NPS Tunebook, but regarded now as thoroughly traditional. Players, as well as the editor of the most recent edition, have sensibly ignored Elliot's dotted 2nd and third notes of the first full bar and where the passage repeats. As he has it, it's awkward to play and adds nothing to the tune. Another 'traditional' tune, J.L Dunk's Whin Shields on the Wall was unplayable nonsense when given to the NPS in a literate-looking but impossible manuscript. Someone, probably the editor Gilbert Askew has bashed it into the excellent Whinshield's Hornpipe. Few people would now play Miss Forbes' Farewell to Banff at the speed Isaac Cooper intended it, as a slow song. At the usual present speed, it would seem that she couldn't get away fast enough. I certainly prefer it with some energetic pace. Finally, there is an odd, tenuous and completely inconsequential connection between Shield and Morpeth. Shield is buried in Westminster Abbey, adjacent to Muzio Clementi, the first really significant composer for the piano and subsequent piano manufacturer. Clementi was 'discovered' in Rome and brought to England by an aristocrat, Peter Beckford who was doing the young rich toff's customary GrandTour. Beckford was, for a while, MP for Morpeth. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
On 15 Jul 2011, at 10:41, Francis Wood wrote: Few people would now play Miss Forbes' Farewell to Banff at the speed Isaac Cooper intended it, as a slow song. I think history and evolution have been fairly kind to Isaac Cooper. A lively 'Miss Forbes' Farewell' is a cracking tune! Other members of her family, also favoured with Cooper's titles have been less fortunate. Miss Betty Forbes and Miss Annie Forbes both have reels, neither of which seems to me to have any merit at all. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
On 15 Jul 2011, at 10:41, Francis Wood wrote: Finally, there is an odd, tenuous and completely inconsequential connection between Shield and Morpeth. . . . .and another odd, inconsequential and irrelevant fact in the present discussion. Shield is buried under the same stone as Salomon who 'brought Haydn to England' as the inscription states: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi=95553 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi=89571 Shield knew Haydn well and was one of his closest English friends. francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Well, this is what Dunk actually wrote, transcribed in abc from the very clear manuscript in the possession of the NPS: X:NPS Collection T:Whin Shields on the Wall C:John L. Dunk Q:1/4=100 M:2/4 L:1/16 K:G z6 d2 |B2G2 G2B2 |A2D2 D2D2 |G2G2 GABc |d3B d2g2 |e2c2 c2e2 |d2G2 G2AB |c2E2 E2FG |ABcd e2fg | decB ABGF |G3E G2B2 |e2B2 B2e2 |d3A d2e2 |a2e2 e2f2 |g3e g2f2 |e2d2 c2B2 |A2d2 d2fd |A2d2 e2fg | a3g gfed |B2G2 GABG |A2D2 D2EF |G2G2 GABc |d6 g2 |e2c2 c2de |d2G2 G2AB |c2B2 A2G2 |dedB GAGE | c3F Fd2G-|G3E G4 |] I'm not convinced that this is anything else other than nonsense. It starts familiarly but then goes completely mad ( a brief allusion to 'Il est né, le Divin Enfant' creeps in) and goes all over the place. I agree, though . . . a very interesting character! Mr Dunk was heavily involved in the highbrow music scene He may have thought he was, but did the highbrow music scene agree? Francis On 15 Jul 2011, at 11:55, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: Quoting Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com: Another 'traditional' tune, J.L Dunk's Whin Shields on the Wall was unplayable nonsense when given to the NPS in a literate-looking but impossible manuscript. Someone, probably the editor Gilbert Askew has bashed it into the excellent Whinshield's Hornpipe. I think that Francis is being unkind to Mr James Delanoy Dunk. Mr Dunk was heavily involved in the highbrow music scene of London in the early part of the last century. His sister, Susan Spain-Dunk achieved some recognition as a Classical composer. http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2009/09/susan-spain-dunk-note-in-music-student.html James' writings on music theory are widely regarded as incomprehensible but they reveal someone who has thought deeply about the nature of music. Perhaps he has thought too deeply, for that way madness lies! I suspect that Whin Shields on the Wall as submitted was an attempt to make a work which would bring the NSP into the Classical repertoire of the time. I can make no sense of it but then I have no feeling for the works of Schonberg, Stockhausen, Bertwhistle or Cage. I leave such matters to others in the same way as I leave aside recent attempts to take NSP into the world of contemporary classical music. These ventures simply hold no interest for me. The Lass of Falstone is a pretty good tune though. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
On 15 Jul 2011, at 14:48, Dave S wrote: The Arethusa is from a musical farce called Lock and Key and in the British Minstrelsy the melody is assigned to Shield. Hi Dave, That's interesting! More here: http://www.contemplator.com/sea/arethusa.html Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
On 15 Jul 2011, at 16:59, Gibbons, John wrote: But it's so free-form that it sounds like he was drunk when he wrote it. H . . . Dunk and disorderly. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
On 15 Jul 2011, at 12:29, Francis Wood wrote: . . .and another odd, inconsequential and irrelevant fact in the present discussion. Shield is buried under the same stone as Salomon who 'brought Haydn to England' as the inscription states: . . . Even more oddly, inconsequentially and irrelevantly, Salomon's orchestra (which gave the first performances of Haydn's 'London' symphonies) included the cellist, Joseph Reinagle. He was the composer of Hamilton House (NPS Tunebook II). Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
On 11 Jul 2011, at 13:05, Gibbons, John wrote: Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description misses? Wiktionary helpfully gives: From Dutch ranten, randen (“talk nonsense, rave”). Can anybody help to clarify the difference between a Rant and a Rave? Or at least, suggest how Rant entered the vocabulary of dance? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: PS Forum
Thanks, Tim . . . that is certainly easier to find. One further possible improvement would be to add the Forum to the links on the left. I very much agree with Mike over the usefulness of the Forum space with its ability to present images and sound. How can any musical instrument-based discussion really thrive these days without such a facility? I don't see the Forum as in any way replacing the Dartmouth list, which remains a good conversational medium. It also has the advantage of simplicity and is well suited for most of its content which is entirely ephemeral. Its disadvantage is that it cannot preserve and organise anything that is worth keeping. Its archive is useful up to a point, although searches are likely to miss much of what is valuable. The problem is that topics evolve very far from their original header. One other disadvantage worth noting is that once a posting to Dartmouth has been sent, it is there permanently. There is much lying around on those electronic shelves which does nobody any credit. At present the NPS Forum is greatly under-used, despite its usefulness. I think it may take time before it is more widely adopted. What would help here is a _brief_ idiot-proof guide. As is well known you can't fully idiot-proof anything because they keep inventing cleverer idiots. However, perhaps an attempt could be made. Experienced forum users will assert that it's an entirely simple matter - an RTFM issue really. I disagree. Two suggestions for encouraging Forum use: - A simple guide, presented on Dartmouth, together with an evolving one on the Forum itself. (Mike, did I see your hand go up?) - Announcement on Dartmouth of any new topic or significant addition to the Forum which the provider thinks may be of general interest. Francis On 4 Jul 2011, at 07:36, Tim Rolls wrote: Hi John, Mike and anyone else who's interested, Entry to the NPS forum, open to all, is now also on the Home page of the NPS website, and so easier to find as you suggest, so you can now find it at http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/ or go straight there at http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/pipersforum/ There are links to Adrian's Forum, and many other things, including more tune collections than you have time to read through, on the Links page of the NPS website http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/index.php?page=Links Any other suggestions for improving the site, or volunteers to look after any sections, existing or new, gratefully accepted cheers, Tim On 3 Jul 2011, at 23:22, smallpi...@machineconcepts.co.uk wrote: Hi John The forum on the NPS web site is open to all (you just have to register) For some reason it is tucked away on the members page - I think that it should be on the front page! Currently things are a bit quiet but I hope that it will perk up once people try it and like it. It is certanly better for posting pictures, music and the threads are likely to be more coherent. It will only be useful if it is well used. I would like to have the chance to discuss various elements of pipemaking with other makers but unless others make an effort to get involved it will just wither. http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/pipersforum/index.php Adrian's forum is not part of the NPS web site and is really a place for him to discuss his opinions with other like minds. Mike Quoting John Dally dir...@gmail.com: Is this Mike Nelson? If so, hello Mike. Thanks for your efforts with the NPS website. I'm confused. There are two forums on the NPS website. One is for members, and it's difficult to find. The other is Adrian's and it's easy to find. Is this correct? I get the feeling that the members' forum is for ordinary pipers, like me, and Adrian's is for extraordinary pipers, like him, otherwise why would there be two forums? Are they both open to the general public? Many thanks, John On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, smallpi...@machineconcepts.co.uk wrote: And an even better case for posting it on the NPS forum (its open to non members) Quoting Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com: On 1 Jul 2011, at 20:39, david...@pt.lu wrote: How about posting the article here? There are lots of people who are interested but are not NPS members Hi Dave, I think you've made quite a good case here for joining the NPS. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~**wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlhttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Another Roxburgh Castle
On 4 Jul 2011, at 08:10, Edric Ellis wrote: Here's my somewhat plodding effort. I really like this. Very neat, very musical. Actually, I prefer the tune un-ranted, though I've enjoyed the other versions. I recorded this mostly so I could listen back for my own education, As Robert Burns said of YouTube: O wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us, An' foolish notion: Your version has none of the latter! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Roxborough Castle TOTM
Wot, no comments? This certainly deserves some appreciation! Nice account, John. Very toe-tapping. I particularly admire your very economical finger movements. A very good basis for effective closed-fingering and it certainly shows up well in the playing here. Congratulations! Francis On 3 Jul 2011, at 22:16, John Dally wrote: Here's my offering for the TOTM. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK5xTxCFvOY I played these tunes in what I hope is a rant rhythm. -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK5xTxCFvOY To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [NPS-Discussion] Re: PS Forum
That would work very efficiently . . . in fact, probably too efficiently. Wouldn't it be better to leave it to the individual writer to decide whether they want their addition to the forum announced on Dartmouth? And isn't there a facility for the individual reader to opt in to an email alert facility? At the moment, theres an awful lot of duplication on the Dartmouth NSP Discussion lists, about which, I'll post separately. Francis On 4 Jul 2011, at 13:29, smallpi...@machineconcepts.co.uk wrote: A simple way of automating this would be to register the Dartmouth list email address to receive new topic and new message notification from the NPS forum. Quoting ch...@harris405.plus.com: - Announcement on Dartmouth of any new topic or significant addition to the Forum which the provider thinks may be of general interest. That would be very helpful. One of the major advantages of the email list is that you don't have to go looking for it. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [NPS-Discussion] NSP Lists duplication
Thanks Julia. A really helpful response. I'm in favour of your suggestions. Francis On 4 Jul 2011, at 14:23, Julia Say wrote: On 4 Jul 2011, Francis Wood wrote: The Dartmouth list is for anyone interested in Northmbrian Small-pipes. It is administered and monitored entirely from without NPS membership. No member or officer of the society has any say in how it is run, although several (only about half) committee members read it and some contribute (obviously). Very occasionally Wayne (who does run it) and I consult on whether names are actual people or not, that is all. The NPS Discussion list was subsequently established for Society-specific discussion. I remain as a subscriber to the second list because I don't know whether it still is useful. I have no means of knowing. Tim I set it up, and do the necessary admin (mostly non-subscribers trying to cross post from Dartmouth) to keep NPS announcements / politics from annoying non- members. It presently has only 89 subscribers. As a consequence it is of little use to reach most NPS members. It was also set up as a stop-gap until a discussion forum could be activated on the NPS website, where political discussions could be held in separate threads which need not bother those had no interest. If (and this is not for me to decide, but NPS-discussion subscribers) we have reached the point where it could realistically be suspended, we can do so. What I would actually propose (wearing my secretarial hat for a moment) is to convert it to an NPS-info list, subscribe all NPS members who have an email address unless they opt out, and use it for Society announcements with the reply function set to come to the sec.only. That is to say, not a discussion list, but an info-list, with discussions pointed to the website forum. This would have to be passed by the committee and announced in the NL, since it is a further change, so it isn't going to happen now before the autumn, although we (the 89 subscribers) could all agree that NPS Discussion has passed its use-by date, and agree not to post to it, but rather use the forum. Hope this helps Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Breaking a promise
Dear Anthony, I should probably keep out of this. However . . . So I've just re-read this from a few days ago: I am the vile editor of the NPS Journal who changed the title of Anthony's article without his consent and I have apologized to him privately and will publish a full apology in the next issue. A private apology, a public recantation of the reason for the apology and a promise of a specific published apology seems fairly gracious. What else can the Editor do? Life's too short (and today's too hot) so let's not get back to the old days of unmusical controversy on this list. By the way, I re-read your article with great interest and pleasure and am glad to repeat the link here: http://www.robbpipes.com/AnyoneForARant As for the title, the word 'rant' has a specific meaning in traditional music known and properly understood mostly by a small number of the inhabitants at the Northern end of this island. However, the NPS Journal (and this Dartmouth list) circulates worldwide to readers of English who natively use this word in one sense only. My point in saying so is that there is always the likelihood of a humourous leak between the two meanings. You're right to object if you think this was done deliberately in a title change which you did not like. The Editor was right to apologise. But for a huge number of people, this word-association is going to happen anyway. For most people, I'd suggest that it doesn't seem absent from your chosen title. Best wishes, Francis Francis On 3 Jul 2011, at 09:04, Anthony Robb wrote: As I'm aware that many out there will not share my rather high tedium tolerance level I'd decided to let this one go but a Sunday morning chat over a cuppa with Heather has persuaded me to make a couple of points: 1) The apology Barry refers to was in relation to not sending me a proof and despite my explanation that what I found upsetting was the change in tenor of the piece as a result of the alteration of the title and the ditching of the subtitle no further apology was forthcoming. Now that it has it is gratefully acknowledged and received. The thing I found very puzzling was that the Magazine had changed into a Journal for that edition but the editor made an artistic decision as though it was still a magazine. 2) The article on Hannah and Jimmy did take some sorting out but I would like to point out that this was largely as a result of the editor retyping the whole piece and the inevitable slips which ensued. Perhaps some guidance for fitting in with 'the house style' might lessen the workload for contributor and editor in the future. Cheers Anthony --- On Fri, 1/7/11, barr...@nspipes.co.uk barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: From: barr...@nspipes.co.uk barr...@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Re: To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 July, 2011, 21:28 (Suspicious voice) Hullo, Anyone there? I've got my tin hat on. Any incoming fire? (Normal voice) Attempts at humour on the internet are dangerous and generally misunderstood. I am the vile editor of the NPS Journal who changed the title of Anthony's article without his consent and I have apologized to him privately and will publish a full apology in the next issue. Anthony presented two contributions to the Journal, the rant article coming earlier in the year well before any start had been made on compiling the issue and then later I received, the wonderful interview with Hannah Hutton and Jimmy Little which threw so much light on a particular section of our tradition and together with Hannah's photographs it became a very important part of the Journal. i am sure that Anthony remembers that article going back and forth for correction until we got it as right as possible. While this was going on, I was typesetting the magazine which involves competing influences, to get the content balanced , to get articles starting on the left or right as appropriate, to end up with a multiple of 4 pages, and I thought that there would not be room for Anthony's Rant article, until almost magically as I tidied up all the pages, a space appeared which demanded an article of just about that length. A few font changes... and it was in and I was grateful. I assembled the whole thing, hit the build contents key -- and the contents page didn't reflect the energy contained in the publication. I looked down the contents and felt that Anthony's title did not sit well against the previous title, and (woe is me) I tried changing Anthony's title in what I thought was a subtle and slightly humorous way and the magazine felt more balanced. However, I forgot to seek Anthony's permission. OOps. An editor must not offend his correspondents or the Journal will be empty. So again I apologize for my oversight as I will do in any
[NSP] Re: Re:
On 1 Jul 2011, at 20:39, david...@pt.lu wrote: How about posting the article here? There are lots of people who are interested but are not NPS members Hi Dave, I think you've made quite a good case here for joining the NPS. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Your Video
On 1 Jul 2011, at 21:44, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: However, how long does video persist on Utube? Easy for the account holder to remove videos from YouTube videos , as the help pages indicate. Will our hesitant attempts at playing still be floating in the ethernet in 2525. Interesting to contemplate how The Tradition will have evolved by then! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune of the Month, July, Roxborough Castle
On 30 Jun 2011, at 08:15, John Dally wrote: Here are a couple of youtube items that already fit the bill for July. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHBO8CGAIeQfeature=related [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKC0ZoVqfzUNR=1 What's your take on the tune? Hi John, Two very contrasting renditions. [1] It's a lot easier to play Roxborough Castle in dotted rhythm, as is done here. I prefer it played absolutely straight, which is really very challenging. A commonly played tune which is rarely played well. I quite like this rendition here . . . seems to have been videoed during a casual session by a bystander. [2] Awful, awful, awful! This version has the tune played in a manner way beyond the performers ability or understanding of the tune, and apparently on a poorly set-up instrument. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: the man with the tin ear
On 30 Jun 2011, at 09:22, smallpi...@machineconcepts.co.uk wrote: I agree with francis. Another mangalisation this time using the Uillean pipes as the weapon of choice. http://www.youtube.com/user/disinpass#p/a/u/0/dkK4_tcPaG8 And, guessing from the size of those arms, he's using the UP bag as a workout device! francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune of the Month, July, Roxborough Castle
Hello Anthony, I don't think we disagree. At Stuart Hardy's musical altitude, I'm sure you're right. That's a level I can only admire but never approach. On a more basic level, playing the tune with a dotted rhythm will get you through in a far less exposed manner than playing straight, which would seem to be an ability to acquire before refining the playing to a more regionally idiomatic expertise. I was fairly OK with the present example because it was reasonably musical and enjoyable . . . and goodness knows, anyway, how long he'd been playing at that booth and under what circumstances. I was harsher on the second YouTube example which was a staged affair as well as being a musical assault. I wondering if other players on the list find the rant speed rhythm a challenge? Well, yes, it is. Good examples are always welcome! All the best, Francis On 30 Jun 2011, at 11:50, Anthony Robb wrote: -- On Thu, 30/6/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: It's a lot easier to play Roxborough Castle in dotted rhythm, as is done here. I prefer it played absolutely straight, which is really very challenging. A commonly played tune which is rarely played well. I quite like this rendition here . . . seems to have been videoed during a casual session by a bystander. Hello Francis I think that might be an oversimpification. Stewart Hardy with his years of top notch tuition experience would say that all things (especially speed) being equal dotted rhythms are harder. What we have here is a reduction of speed from the typical rant speed of 96 bpm to a hornpipe at 76 bpm. As you say it is OK but even at that speed he loses his rhythm when it comes to the top As which should be dotted quavers but come out as quick flicks. My first realisation that rants were almost as dotted as hornpipes but 25% faster came at Archie Bertram's when they all played Roxburgh and Hesleyside with almost hornpipe lilt but at a speed which left me floundering. It wasn't the normal straight reel speed of 106 bpm which isn't easy but for me certainly a bit easier that the rant rhythm at 96 bpm. I wondering if other players on the list find the rant speed rhythm a challenge? As for other comments I think you are spot on. Warmest best Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: KVR online
On 29 Jun 2011, at 18:06, Julia Say wrote: I see the copy digitised was donated to NLS by Dorothea Ruggles-Brise - she of pulling Dixon out of the flames fame. Not famous enough for me to have heard of her . . . so what's the rest of this interesting story? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 24 Jun 2011, at 12:24, cwhill wrote:
Imagine some guy sitting watching his goats playing a shawm, getting out of
breath (and they do take a lot of puff) and thinking I have a cunning plan.
Hi Colin and all,
Goats are pretty clever creatures and apparently have been playing bagpipes
since mediaeval times. It must be true, because here's a picture in a Swedish
church showing a pipes-playing goat.
Perhaps the first significant piper to be called Billy.
http://www.myspace.com/blackmagicfools/photos/881123#{%22ImageId%22%3A881123}
Francis
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 26 Jun 2011, at 13:23, cwhill wrote: I wonder what the bag is made from then - a shepherd perhaps? Interesting idea! Perhaps make shepherds pie from the other bits? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
Hello Barry and others, Well this is certainly interesting. Firstly can anyone (i.e you, Julia!) throw any light on Fenwick his background? Was Mr. Fenwick right? I think he was, in the 1885 context of the aims of that tutor and the unfamiliarity of the instrument. I would suggest a better description Yes, I agree that it is, being a fuller scientific description of what is required, and more suitable to the more sophisticated, experienced and knowledgeable reader, by which I mean any subscriber to the Dartmouth List! Scientific too, in that it has resulted not only from careful listening to proponents of a certain style but your electronic examination thereof. Mr Fenwick's description seems to me to owe a lot to the style of playing appropriate to open ended pipes such as GHB. I don't believe it is influenced by anything other than an attempt to explain in simpler (and less musical) terms than yours the basic principles of closed fingering. Initially the gaps between the notes will be large, but with practise they *will* come down to an appropriate length. I like the parallels drawn with the psychology of effective sports coaching. Concerning your remark above, there is much to discuss about what is appropriate. Playing Rothbury Hills in the style of Meggy's Foot might improve it a lot! I suppose after all, Fenwick did a reasonable job though there are factual inaccuracies and much needless repetition. As a member of the (very small) Northumbrian Small-Pipes Society of the time he may have been the best person to undertake this task. Francis Francis On 22 Jun 2011, at 22:56, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: In the instruction book published by the Northumbrian Smallpipes Society in 1896, Mr Fenwick wrote, 'The note G is sounded by lifting the fourth finger off the bottom hole. To produce A, replace the fourth finger on the hole, and raise the third finger. The other notes are produced by closing and opening one hole at a time as given in the scale.' It seems to me that there are some deficiencies in this description. If we follow the instruction in the first sentence, we are left with a G sounding. This will go on until we decide to play another note. In order to play that other note we have to move two fingers in a coordinated fashion. I would suggest a better description as A note of G is sounded by lifting the fourth finger off the bottom hole for the length of time appropriate to the note and then replacing it. Other notes are played in the same fashion either by lifting a finger or thumb to open a tone-hole for the required duration and then replacing the finger or thumb or by depressing a key for the appropriate length of time and then releasing it. The major difference is that every note has a length as well as a pitch, the player is aware of the length of the note when he starts to play it, and the note isn't complete until it has been stopped. Mr Fenwick's description seems to me to owe a lot to the style of playing appropriate to open ended pipes such as GHB. Once the pipes are started, a stream of sound emanates from the chanter and the player is engaged in directing this to various pitches. It is a bit like operating a garden hose with no access to the tap. You can direct where the water goes but you cannot stop it. Conversely, with a closed end chanter NSP can produce distinct notes, and I think this is the way the instrument is best approached. Once we know how to play a G quaver, we can decide to play a G quaver without worrying about where the note will end. Our training will kick in and the fourth finger will descend at the appropriate time. we should imagine the whole of the note in our head before playing it. We can decide to follow that G with an A and to do that we lift the third finger at the appropriate time. and the fourth finger has already closed the G hole. Initially the gaps between the notes will be large, but with practise they *will* come down to an appropriate length. This description is my own but it owes much to detailed listening to recordings of Chris Ormston, to practice methods described by Inky-Adrian and discussions with other pipers who shall for now remain nameless. I feel that there are parallels with the methods used by Sports psychologists and coaches who encourage those they are teaching to break down the actions they require into well defined segments, and to have a clear vision of the outcome they wish to achieve before they start the action - we should 'think' the note before we play it. Does this make any sort of sense? Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
On 23 Jun 2011, at 11:20, Julia Say wrote: The most important thing in a tune is the spaces between the notes, not the notes themselves. This is also consistent with the musical principles of the composer Bruno Heinz Jaja, demonstrated by the musicologists Dr Klauss Domgraf-Fassbaender and Professor von der Vogelweide at the Hoffning Interplanetary Festival 1958 Each note is dependant on the next. Each note is like a little polished diamond There are three bars of silence . . . the second bar is in 3-4 and this gives to the whole work a quasi-Viennese flavour Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
On 23 Jun 2011, at 12:01, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: Fassbender offers some grudging compliment to Schoenberg So he does! The essential difference between Schoenberg and Proper Piping is that in his case it was a 12 tone row, whereas in the recent discussion (Proper Peacock Piping) it became an 8 tone row. Quite a heated row, at times. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 22 Jun 2011, at 09:31, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: Word's spellchequer used to suggest fellated for filleted. Further light has thus been thrown on the term 'codpiece' Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 22 Jun 2011, at 09:39, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: What would you say was the opposite of legato. Ooooh, I'm not going there!! Saying that something is _not_ the opposite of another is only one assertion. Saying what _is_ an opposite requires a number of bold and foolhardy propositions which will keep this thread going for several years I take 'detached fingering' to mean only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time. In other words you don't have to overdo it to prove that you're piping properly? Well, I agree though that's not quite what I meant. More a matter of simple technique indicated by the physical aspects of a stopped chanter, rather than any question of taste. Would you make the odd exception for vibrato and the occasional mordent, acciaccatura or cut (in the UP sense) and such like? Oh yes, of course. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 21 Jun 2011, at 10:38, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: now that I'm emerging from the doldrums Doldra, surely? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Hello Julia and others, I like this reply very much. This has been a good thread and a great endorsement of the varied interests which emerge from and return to the discussion of our favourite instrument. It's also a good demonstration of both the value and the disadvantages of this list medium. The disadvantages are obvious. Searching for topics in the list archives would be unsuccessful in the present instance since the header is 'Deaf/Dead' . . the discussion has now migrated far from that original idea. For sequence of topics and responses the Forum medium is far superior. On the other hand, the present list facility is excellent for immediate conversational responses. And I must say, I thoroughly enjoy the odd and interesting mutations that emerge in these discussions! Francis On 21 Jun 2011, at 10:05, Julia Say wrote: On 20 Jun 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: stacc. abbreviated form of staccato (Italian: detached, separated) staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note The word has its natural meaning, in other words. Stacatissimo is what some people think it means, but it doesn't! I believe I read (probably in the online dolmetsch.com music theory site since that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms these days, a note with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is printed, (so a crotchet becomes a quaver, for instance), whilst staccatissimo means the note should be played one quarter of the written value. I have more than a suspicion that the precise meaning of these terms varies from instrument to instrument (different characteristics and all that) as well as through historical and musical time. Maybe an exploration of the relevance and meaning of such terms for the nsp is worthwhile. Tenuto also appears to mean separated, but only by a hair's breadth, which I think we should appropriate, as it describes exactly what we sometimes want. Reading (this time on Wikipedia) legato can be either separated or joined (slurred legato?) depending on instrument and context. What / which do we (nsp-ers) mean by it? And under what circumstances? I once played classical flute - where staccato dots often (but not always) meant tongueing, slurs meant no tongueing. And so on and so forth. Each of us is coming to the nsp with a slightly different perspective and experience and we have to bear this in mind in discussions We have staccatissimo marks in Peacock on Meggy's Foot - and all seem agreed that this is a highly exaggerated staccato tune. So, in our case, staccatissimo could be said to be as short as you can possibly make it, whilst staccato is with the bounce that most players seem to apply to (for example) the first of a pair of repeated notes. Not something that's ever been pointed out to me formally but most players do it, almost by instinct. Which makes it traditional in my book. If we can find a consensus on how these terms are / should be used in nspiping, discussions might be a little less confrontational. Julia (who has been told off by both Chris O and I- Adrian for playing too staccato - yees!) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 21 Jun 2011, at 14:54, Tim Rolls wrote: Popapoms would be the Australian version then? Well, which country is this? : Poppadom, Poppadom Pom Pom Pom . . . Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
P On 21 Jun 2011, at 15:51, Richard York wrote: Then there's the Beethoven version- poppopaDOM Or this, anyone? Poppadom, Poppadom, Poppadom-pom ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 21 Jun 2011, at 23:13, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: PS my spellchecker offered as alternatives to 'stratocaster': 'toastmaster' or castrated. Ah! the wonders of a digital age. Don't know about 'toastmaster', but 'castrated' is a proper musical term. In Italian, that is. More seriously, a good post, Barry. 'Staccato' as a useful description works just fine for me. I've not found the need to refine a very precise meaning, but it conveys a common concept to most people. 'Detached' is not an equivalent, though. I'll play a slow air, or everything else for that manner with 'detached fingering' because that's how a stopped chanter works. And it's not the opposite of 'legato'! I take 'detached fingering' to mean only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time, with either an infinitesimal or a more pronounced gap between notes. Once it is more noticeable, then it's staccato. 'Meggy's Foot' to take an extreme example and 'Lads of Alnwick' less so. 'Rothbury Hills' or whatever, hardly at all. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 20 Jun 2011, at 09:34, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: However, I think we differ over the harpsichord's ability to play 'long-sustained'. I was having this discussion with my wife the other day (she plays keyboards rather better than I can), so I went to the harpsichord and tried it to check. Just like on a piano, if you hold a key down, the damper remains out of contact with the string, which sustains longer than it would if you released the key immediately. Not as long as on the piano of course, but there's a difference between staccatissimo and simple separation. Maybe the term should be short-sustained. As regards detached fingering, it's interesting that the term détaché when applied to bowing of a string instrument does not imply a silence between the notes. It merely means that you change bow direction for each note, making a fresh start, rather than slurring two or more together. The on-the-string bowing with a silence between notes is called martelé. Staccato means separating notes with a silence while staying on the string but not changing the direction of the bow. Then of course there's all the off-the-string stuff. Staccato in Italian means separated. It does not mean short. Playing NSP with a fresh start to each note but not necessarily a clearly audible silence can sound very pleasant, at least to my ears, and of course you need to be able to do the staccatissimo in the first place to do it reliably because the timing has to be phenomenally precise. The look mummy, no legato (or dripping tap) way of playing just sounds like a technical exercise. To do a good détaché it helps to have a good martelé to begin with. I would argue that the martelé was the basic stroke just like the staccato is the basic way of playing NSP. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 17 Jun 2011, at 09:24, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: I reckon being dead is an even greater impediment to hearing them played now. Well, if he hadn't been the late Beethoven, how could he have composed the Late Quartets? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 17 Jun 2011, at 12:39, cwhill wrote: I'm thinking here of the closed fingering techniques, one finger off at a time, no choyting etc. Hi Colin and others, The closed-fingering technique derives much more from the nature of the instrument rather than any opinions about style. Since the NSP chanter has a stopped end, there would be little point in adopting anything other than this fingering style, which allows separate notes with (usually) a distinguishable silence between each. This is something that no other bagpipe can do. In fact it would be difficult to think of another wind instrument capable of silence whilst pressure is applied. At present I can only identify the ocarina. The limits of any bag-blown chanter/ oboe are obvious. Almost no opportunity for dynamics, and very little for on-the-go tuning. The scale of the primitive NSP chanter is confined to eight notes. This is clearly a chicken egg situation - the construction and the style of playing of instruments are closely related, and neither predates the other. What commonly happens with almost any musical instrument is that its limitations are adopted into the playing style as highly identifiable and positive features. Hence, closed fingering. Operated by open minds. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Hello Richard, I think we pretty much agree. Who, for example, would want to play Rothbury Hills in a staccato manner? (Who, indeed would want to play RH in any manner whatsoever, some might interject.) However it was composed by a significant piper who happened to be the official piper to the Duke of somewhere or other. So like it or not, it's part of the tradition. Often improved, if you get the chance to hear it, by Inky-Adrian's farmyard impressions. That harpsichord comparison is mightily good, since that and the NSP have some principles remarkably in common. However, I think we differ over the harpsichord's ability to play 'long-sustained'. That has as much to do with what the contemporary listener actually heard, knowing the style and nature of the music, rather than the acoustic output of the instrument. While we're usefully on this topic, here's an opportunity to quote one of the greatest of harpsichordists in one of the bitchiest-ever remarks about taste: Well, you play Bach your way and I'll play him his way. That was Wanda Landowska. Much quoted in that remark, though it turns out that it was playfully said to a dear colleague and longtime friend, the cellist Pablo Casals. B! . . . Mooo! . . .. Oink-oink!!! Francis On 17 Jun 2011, at 13:50, Richard York wrote: Hello Francis, Quite so, but, playing devil's advocate for a minute, (and loving tradition except where it becomes tribal), does the fact that we can play staccato and 99% of other pipes can't, mean it's all we should do? The harpsichord, after all, could only really play staccato or slightly sustained, and then the piano came in and could play long sustained, but it doesn't mean we don't still use staccato as part of the vocabulary on the piano. I'm not doubting the value of detached playing at all, it really is the best thing most of the time, but just wanting the occasional extra bit of vocabulary. And as a matter of taste more than a tiny bit of smooth really doesn't suit the nsp's to my mind, but like some spices, the occasional addition can go a long way. I speak more as a listener than claiming great expertise in playing here. Best wishes, Richard. PS should the proper piping movement consider calling itself the Real piping movement? Hi Colin and others, The closed-fingering technique derives much more from the nature of the instrument rather than any opinions about style. Since the NSP chanter has a stopped end, there would be little point in adopting anything other than this fingering style, which allows separate notes with (usually) a distinguishable silence between each. This is something that no other bagpipe can do. In fact it would be difficult to think of another wind instrument capable of silence whilst pressure is applied. At present I can only identify the ocarina. The limits of any bag-blown chanter/ oboe are obvious. Almost no opportunity for dynamics, and very little for on-the-go tuning. The scale of the primitive NSP chanter is confined to eight notes. This is clearly a chicken egg situation - the construction and the style of playing of instruments are closely related, and neither predates the other. What commonly happens with almost any musical instrument is that its limitations are adopted into the playing style as highly identifiable and positive features. Hence, closed fingering. Operated by open minds. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Text inserted by Panda IS 2011: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_9926SPAM=truepath=C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Richard\Local%20Settings\Application%20Data\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Internet%20Security%202011\AntiSpam ---
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 17 Jun 2011, at 14:14, ch...@harris405.plus.com wrote: The Uilleann pipe chanter can be, and often is, played closed, by resting the chanter on the knee. It's possible, but more difficult, to get just as clean, detatched playing as with nsp. However this isn't seen as a fundamental distinguishing feature, and is not insisted upon. The chanter can be played open or closed, and is indeed played both ways, to get more varied effects. Hello Chris, Thanks for this. I'm ignorant about Uilleann pipes as you'll probably gather. But do you mean to say that the chanter can be played using two radically different fingering systems and still remain _in tune_? If not, can the closed method probably really and properly be regarded as part of the core technique of those pipes? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 17 Jun 2011, at 21:44, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: The sound of skeletons copulating on a corrugated tin roof. Rattling the parrot's cage with a toasting fork is another. What a good thing nobody would ever say anything so cruel about our magnificent instrument. Positive remarks only, about it's neatness of execution. As was once famously said, the sound should resemble 'NSP's coming out of a pod. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Positive remarks only, about it's neatness of execution. When I said it's, I hope it's obvious that its real meaning was its. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: divorce
Hello Dave and others, I see things a little differently. Two things have happened here, the first being a move to have opinions, information and other resources made permanently available in the form of a forum. This is currently happening in the NPS Forum and the Traditional NSP Forum established by Inky-Adrian. The advantage of the forum medium is clear - it provides a growing archive where threads are easily followed and remain related to their original header. This is not so with the archived posts of this, or any other list. The second development is that there are now two separate forums. It might be argued that it's a pity that the party is going on in two different houses. My own view is that diversity is a good thing. Each forum can learn and develop from the other. It's also a good demonstration that the often-confused NSP and NPS are not in fact the same thing, and that each can exist detached from the other. I'll continue to follow and enjoy this list, though I treat it very much as a newspaper, occasionally keeping cuttings but treating the rest as daily ephemera. As a repository of useful fact and opinion, it doesn't really work. By the way, does anyone have any good ideas about the right kind of oil to use? Francis On 16 Jun 2011, at 08:38, Dave S wrote: Hi, It seems as though Inky has his wish. The tradition is now firmly no longer out in the open. This list served the purpose of introducing the beginner(shy fence-sitter to brash young expert) to light conversation/disagreement/proposition on all subjects around the wonderful instrument known as the NSP. It has done this well for a good number of years, but I believe the polarisation Inky wrongly thought was necessary to save his ideal methodology (rightly or wrongly) of the ONLY way to play NSP has wrought more damage than can now be imagined. I would liken it to attempting to harmonize the accents used by people in any single country of the world. I find it rather saddening that this has occurred - I will continue to listen and reply to try and keep this list going -- will the rest of you out there do the same ?? Inky has a good heart but perhaps a too impulsive temperament has taken over in this case -- why not teach your method to the masses by force of persuation, Inky, and not by force of typing. Of course there are multiple sides in the recent situation but I hope our love the instrument, it's possibilities and it's beatiful music will eventually prevail over the hot tempered reactions. ciao Dave S To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Dartmouth
Well the day the NPS starts dictating how I have to play my pipes will be the day I pick up my chanter and drones and go home. I certainly don't want any elders of that church telling me about being boiled eternally in hot oil (of any variety) because of my fingering technique - (forgive me) - or my taste in tunes. Actually the church analogy works pretty well for me, and even though I'm unreligious I have a perpetual respect for the established Church over here (i.e. the C of E) which seems to be able to accommodate various shades of belief (some of whom absolutely hate each other) without actually falling apart. There is a sense of overall good purpose as well as some lovely cathedrals and great music. On that topic, by the way, I prefer the Proper Tudor stuff and don't like modern carols . . . but there you are. The C of E has been responsible for burning a few heretics at the stake, but by and large it has abandoned those practices since they don't attract new members. It seems to me that there is plenty of room in a healthy NPS for quite a few different ways of doing things. You can pick your own congregation if you like the way they do things, and stick with that crowd if it suits you. I still think a Peacock's Parlour, or alternatively titled area, would be a good addition to the grievously under-used NPS forum. I'd continue to use Dartmouth, which has been a great resource over the years. And I'd stick with the new Facebook group which I've found really interesting. But I do think that we need more resources than either can really provide these days and I agree strongly with what Mike Nelson has said earlier. Neither Dartmouth or FB provide any permanence for interesting threads. Even more importantly, neither is good for revising or withdrawing anything which is passionately or unwisely said . . which is perhaps what I'm doing right now. Francis On 27 May 2011, at 21:39, Inky- Adrian wrote: Dear all , Dartmouth is not a dedicated forum. The one on facebook is, although it's got its limits. I'd rather not have our forum on the NPS forum because they do not back what this new group stands for and I don't agree that the NPS should get the credit afterwards. In fact as I said before, the NPS lays down rules on how the pipes should look: stopped ends, no shuttle-drones and no stepped bores. The NPS does not give two-hoots on how they should be played. It does not recognise that there is a correct way to play the pipes although in the 1800's and reprinted in the 1970's (or was it the 30's?), a book was written and published for the NPS with its backing. I have never seen in writting or in any rule change that has changed the stance of the NPS on this matter. So where has the change come in and on who's authority, if there was any change on the rules at all? If there was no rule change then I think the NPS should relook at this matter as you cannot run a society when the NPS doesn't know what's happened in the past and brushed it under the carpet and forgot it, if they did. Now this is why I don't like to publish on Dartmouth , one has to answer stupid questions instead of being in concordance in another forum, where I was quite happy. You've had an invitation. Dartmouth is not the place for the new forum but it is for this posting. If you don't like it, lump it. I'm buggering of to a more pleasant forum where we have intelligentcia. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Ovingham Goose Fair
Without wishing to disadvantage any geese, might this be an opportunity to resolve the recent discussion on Facebook concerning the use of goose quills as drone reeds? Francis On 1 Jun 2011, at 09:23, Julia Say wrote: Could anyone planning on coming to this (Sat 18 June) a) let me know so I've an idea of numbers (we are scheduled to lead the procession and do 2 spots on the stage - what is played will depend on who turns up.) b) let me know *asap* if you would like a car pass - which allows parking quite near the playing area, useful for dumping spare stuff. We need to be there by 12.30 at the latest - the procession is earlier than it used to be, and there is no free lunch anymore. Thanks. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Pipes concerts etc.
On 29 May 2011, at 09:40, Anthony Robb wrote: It's such a pity that this part of the tradition (which was in some ways a truer and longer tradition than the Clough one) is not only ignored but actively denied in some quarters. Someone once said 'A language is a dialect with an army'. Well, of course, it was the Cloughs who had the explosives. Haswellite, I believe! But more seriously, you're right to point out that there were other traditions, some still going strong. Whilst accepting basic principles, there's more than one way to play. Any instrument which is capable of only one narrowly prescribed style isn't worth playing. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Differences in Tradition
On December 10, 1929, Stanley Kennedy North gave a talk to the Musical association in London. With him was Tom Clough who played his own 17 key chanter. Kennedy North had brought an unfinished 18 key chanter (additional G key) which he was himself making. However on this occasion he played a 7 key Reid set. Below is an interesting excerpt from the proceedings. Francis It is too often forgotten that experiments in the workshop resulting in improvements and modifications of musical instruments, have affected in a marked degree the music played upon them. That the peculiarities of the small-pipes are best shown off by the characteristic music of Northumbria will at once be apparent to you as musicians when you come to hear Mr. Tom Clough play. You will notice the frequent use of the leaping octave, the repetition of phrases, the abundance of triplets, arpeggi, thirds and sixths and a remarkably effective use of the seventh. I will now ask Mr Tom Clough to play “Chevy Chase”. This tune, as you know, is a very old one. It is simple and elementary, sits well on the Northumbrian small-pipe, and is often played by Mr. James Hall the Duke’s Piper at Alnwick Castle. I want to say here at that Mr Hall’s rendering is quite different in time and phrasing from that of Mr. Clough, and if you would allow me to say so, much more to my liking; but you! must remember that families of papers, like the Halls and the Cloughs have their own traditional ways and playing of tunes. In their heart of hearts they don't think much of each other's methods either. Unfortunately I have never had the pleasure of entertaining Mr James Hall, or rather being entertained by him in London. Mr. Tom Clough is many years his junior. Mr. James Hall, a charming man for whom I have a great affection, lives up in the hills on the banks of the Breamish and his playing has a distinctly crisp and more primitive quality than the polished musicianly execution of the famous Tynesider we have here this afternoon. Here again the style of playing is affected by the variation in the instruments. Mr James Hall’s chanter reeds are smaller than those of our friend here, and his drone reeds are of cane, while Mr Tom Clough’s are of brass. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rules
On 28 May 2011, at 00:13, Julia Say wrote: They are also well aware that there is a playing tradition that we all strive to continue and develop, each in our different way. I agree . . . a case of taking the Clough with the Smooth really. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Proper piping group
Hi Richards (both of you good folk!) I rather agree with Adrian that this kind of discussion is best held in a dedicated area. Some people are passionately interested in this aspect of piping, whilst others will find it totally boring. The problem with Dartmouth is that it is very difficult to follow the thread of any discussion, since the topic being discussed may have moved far from the original subject. This is why it is often difficult to extract useful information from the archived posts. There is also no opportunity to host sound or image files Facebook seems to me to be a useful place to initiate this discussion so far. The problem there is that nothing is archived. Perhaps the best destination for this interesting discussion is a dedicated area of an already existing forum. Peacock's Parlour perhaps? Francis On 27 May 2011, at 16:38, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: Dear Adrian, Why cannot all this very positive work be done on the current group that Wayne Cripps set up many years ago for exactly this type of discussion? Richard - Original Message - From: Inky- Adrian inkyadr...@googlemail.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 9:54 AM Subject: [NSP] Proper piping group The new facebook forum The Proper Northumberland small-pipe Players has now developed into an array of topics: Traditional reedmaking, smallpipe making , traditional developement and delving into the past to see how things might have worked and possibly revamp them for todays use. The forum is not for those who have a total dislike of of all things traditional, it is for those who have a positive view and a general agreement with each other on what the small-pipes are about. We are actively recording the tunes and how we think the pipes should be sound. Adrian. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: new group
On 24 May 2011, at 08:25, Anthony Robb wrote: Are they rivalists as well as revivalists? Oh, just taking a detached view . . . For enquiring minds the best demonstration of true detached fingering technique is Helen Fish's admirable video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7paLft9_ms Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: tune of the month
Since I've never felt the urge to compete, perhaps I shouldn't really comment. But from what I've observed, the competition element in the NSP world is nothing like that in GHB piping. It seems to me that NSP competition is far more about participation in traditional events and receiving some personal endorsement of achievement, rather than defeating the opposition. I've no idea what melodeon culture and tradition is like, but evidently it cannot be ancient, as piping traditions are. If there are strong feelings about how things should be done (preferably expressed in a friendly way, but I won't lose sleep if they are not), I'm interested and glad to read them in this forum. This is essentially a pretty friendly place, though with the occasional angry outburst. Rather like any average marriage, I guess. Love n' Peace to all, Francis On 24 May 2011, at 09:33, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: Perhaps one of the reasons the melodeon group is so friendly is that they don't have competition built into their culture the way pipers do. (For a diatribe on the subject see my editorial at [2]www.theotherpipers.org). Excellent article! Csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: tune of the month
On 24 May 2011, at 11:04, Gibbons, John wrote: Free-reed instruments in Europe are only a half-century or less younger than keyed NSP, mind Well OK . . a good point. But concertinas were infants at a time when smallpipes had an ancient lineage! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re-Tune of the Month
On 24 May 2011, at 13:12, Richard York wrote: Love and piece indeed... did you have any particular piece in mind this month, Francis? Well, as a matter of fact, yes! The last 'piece' I played was 'Handel's Water Piece', a duet arrangement of Handels 2nd Water Music Suite (the Ouverture), found in Robert Bewick's manuscript tunebooks. Chris Evans and I did that at Oxford Pipeworks on Saturday. Lots of fun to play. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: new group
On 24 May 2011, at 20:24, Matthew Boris wrote: I'm sensing a Judean Peoples' Front vs. Peoples' Front of Judea schism here... Excellent! What has the NPS ever done for us ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: new group
On 23 May 2011, at 21:28, Mark Stayton wrote: Is this different than the Proper Northumbrian Pipers group? It's a slightly different chapel but we worship the same God. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Alice Burn
On 19 May 2011, at 22:28, Anthony Robb wrote: Here she is playing with Emily Hoile at the Chantry Museum last night Definitely the right kind of Hoile . . . Lovely item, Anthony! Got any more? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Heavy pipes
Saves messing around with those fiddly reed things. And you can probably play in E maj. No problem! Francis On 18 May 2011, at 09:33, Tim Rolls wrote: Hi All, Fed up with carrying around those heavy old Northumbrian smallpipes in their bag? Learn to play the Scottish smallpipes instead. But, I hear you say, surely they're just as heavy Sorry, forgot to say, you can now play them virtually on your iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad http://www.tradlessons.com/BlowPipesSP.html There's a demo on YouTube and everything... Now all I need is an iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad, and to be twenty years younger so I can work one. enjoy Tim -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cocks Bryan Book for sale
On 18 May 2011, at 09:05, Julia Say wrote: There was also a lively discussion with another person at the time as to whether it was adequate. I can imagine that it was lively! But as to whether or not any pipe-making book can be adequate, that depends entirely on what one expects. A good book will have enough information to make a decent set of pipes. Making them work is another matter and requires personal explanation and demonstration. What Cox Bryan provides is a good representation of parts of historical sets by the Reids and Dunn in their 'as found' state after fettling. In fact there isn't a complete Reid set illustrated; the drones and chanter are from different sets. However, there's plenty of good information there to make a very authentic Reid style set, or one resembling Dunn's work representing an earlier stage of NSPS C B was very much a product of its time being written in a period when technical education was far more widespread. Many boys (not girls, unfortunately) would have had some experience of lathe and metal-work at school. This is no longer the case, and a suitably equipped school workshop would be hard to find, these days. The present consequence of that is that a pipe-making course would now be a difficult thing to establish. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Wishful thinking or feasible science?
On 12 May 2011, at 16:00, cal...@aol.com wrote: You'll note that flutes, shawms, sackbutts (gotta love that name) and other instruments that are directly mouth-blown are far more prone to cracking, Flutes and shawms, yes. But sackbutts, definitely no! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
On 10 May 2011, at 14:08, Rob Say wrote: My thought is that there aren't enough long chanters and extended range players to form a solid judgement at the moment. I agree totally, Rob. And would add only this: that there are even fewer'extended range players' than there are 'long chanters'. Philip's question remains a good one: it's important for a maker to be able to discuss the options in a responsive way. However an experienced and expert player probably already knows what they want and the options have been well explored in this forum in recent responses and earlier postings. A less experienced and able player might well ask themselves how well they can manage a seven-keyed chanter. Francis ( a long-term 7-key user and still working on that!) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Historical image of John Dunn, John Peacock?
On 4 May 2011, at 09:52, Matt Seattle wrote: Also, I wonder whether the keywork added by Dunn was 'chromatic' at this stage, but others will know more about this than I do. Hi Matt, I think the problem with this text is that it allows some ambiguity. It's true that Dunn was the first to add keywork. It's also true that keywork provided chromatic notes - eventually. This sentence, as well as the omission of editorship, definitely needs some improvement, which, under Wikipedia provisions, any registered person can do. But I don't think that any omission in this article casts doubt on the reliability of Wikipedia. 'Authoritative' printed sources often contain errors and omissions which cannot be corrected until a subsequent edition. Wikipedia allows instant correction. Dunn's initial improvement (?) to the original chanter (I'm not calling it plain, primitive or keyless!) was to add F#, E and D below, with an A on top. I believe there's another, later chanter thought to be by Dunn, with a C#. I know who to ask! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
Paul, if you mean acoustic effects . . . probably nothing audibly detectable resulting from minor warping. If the warping has resulted in a mismatch between the tenon and socket, permitting a small leak, that's another matter. It would probably be true to say that all wooden artefacts warp, as well as changing shape throughout the seasonal year. The question is really in the degree of change. Francis On 11 Feb 2011, at 11:26, Paul Scott wrote: And just to throw another q out therewhat is the effect, if any, of minor warping of wooden chanter/drones? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
Glad you also think it's good, Bob. A little background on Benade here: http://acousticalsociety.org/about/awards/gold/12_10_10_benade https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/BenadeHome.html What I like is that the material links the theoretical aspects of acoustics to the practical ways in which instruments actually behave - as well as the modifications which players like to undertake. His other excellent book is 'Horns, Strings and Harmony', a rather more populist work. Despite the title, there's a good bit about woodwind, including his design for a multi-keyed flute made out of tubing and bits of tin can. A keen maker, though not a craftsman; he wanted to see how things could be made to work and how they could be modified to work better. Francis On 11 Feb 2011, at 13:44, BobG wrote: Francis, Thanks for the ref to Arthur Benade's book. I've just bought it, and first indications are that it is excellent! Bob - Original Message - From: Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com To: julia@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 2:38 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch On 10 Feb 2011, at 13:43, Julia Say wrote: a small depression could surely catch a sound wave at a funny angle and cause it to behave in a less than theoretically perfect manner It's really much more like the effect caused by a tiny irregularity in a tooth. It seems massively more important than it actually is. There's absolutely no possibility of theoretically perfect behaviour in a woodwind bore, so consequently these insignificant irregularities cannot possibly disturb such perfection. Practically speaking (unless one is unbelievably expert) the factors influencing sound waves in an NSP bore are a good mixture of the laws of Physics and Sod's Law. In varying proportions, obviously. I don't think I've seen Arthur Benade's Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics mentioned in this forum. I certainly can't claim to know it well, or to understand most of it. But I think it is one of the best regarded textbooks on musical acoustics written by a first class scientist who also enjoyed making musical instruments (especially wind) when he wasn't busy with the day job. I'm mentioning this here because it's a book I turn to in curiosity when the behaviour of woodwinds is in question. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
Interesting speculation there, Julia. One notable thought is the difference between modern and earlier-centuries perception of this matter of the work marks in the bore. They are very common in Reid instruments which all show an extraordinary degree of craftsmanship. I've just had a look inside an exquisite ivory musette bore, and yes, the point of the drill is very visible. It clearly wasn't thought very important in the 18th and 19th century when instrument design developed as a result of enormous quantities of experimentation and experience in certain families. Personally, I'd avoid leaving those marks. But I'm grateful to those early makers who did, because it leaves unequivocal evidence of the intended position of those tone-holes, no matter how much they have been altered. In response to your question about unevenness at those drill points and the effect on standing waves, I strongly doubt (and this is just a guess) that it would have any effect on standing waves. Consider that the volume of the cavity caused by a tiny drill point is virtually nothing compared with the volume of the huge cavity that lies immediately opposite; the tone-hole itself. The other thing to consider here is the nature of the cylindrical bore. We expect cylindrical bores to behave in predictable ways because that's what acousticians tell us. To a large extent thats reliable wisdom, but what applies to a clarinet is certainly not true of a small-pipe bore which may be anything from 4mm (very early) to 5+mm (some recent examples). A small pipe-bore cannot function as a theoretical cylindrical bore because of the relatively huge tone-hole cavities. The same is true of a clarinet but the relative disturbance is proportionally much less. It would be nice to think of a well made small-pipe bore as analagous to a long regular and smooth surfaced walking stick. In practice, its effective shape is closer to some knobbly stick pulled out of a hedge. Even if you have sanded it and varnished it afterwards! Even with such an irregular effective bore-profile, it still works best when coated with oil. I wonder what is the best kind of oil to use? Does anyone have any ideas on that? Yours mischievously, Francis On 10 Feb 2011, at 10:38, Julia Say wrote: On 9 Feb 2011, Philip Gruar wrote: I'll just say that with care, a flat-ended drill and delicacy of touch, there should be no need for rods down the bore. You just stop the drill before it goes too deep! Well, quite. One can both hear and feel the drill reaching the bore. Nevertheless it was something I was warned about, and was checked up on. Now I'm wondering about the acoustic effect of all those dimples that do occur in various makes of pipes (historical and otherwise) on what I believe is supposed to be a smooth shiny bore. (Not to mention all the agricultural standard bores that are about - this a phrase which makers fettlers sometimes use!) My ivory chanter is jointed near the low E and when I got it, squeaked on that key at the least provocation. Adrian had a look at it and suggested there was possible unevenness in the jointing. We had a bit of a go at sorting it and the matter improved (so did my playing, which probably helped too). The point being that I'm wondering whether the uneveness caused by drill marks in the bore would be sufficient in some cases to upset or affect the standing waves and therefore tuning / tone / stability / reed / whatever. Since that's physics, which frightens me rigid due to some very poor teaching in my yoof, I'm going to tiptoe away now and let the heavy duty theorists get to work on the suggestion. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
On 10 Feb 2011, at 13:43, Julia Say wrote: a small depression could surely catch a sound wave at a funny angle and cause it to behave in a less than theoretically perfect manner It's really much more like the effect caused by a tiny irregularity in a tooth. It seems massively more important than it actually is. There's absolutely no possibility of theoretically perfect behaviour in a woodwind bore, so consequently these insignificant irregularities cannot possibly disturb such perfection. Practically speaking (unless one is unbelievably expert) the factors influencing sound waves in an NSP bore are a good mixture of the laws of Physics and Sod's Law. In varying proportions, obviously. I don't think I've seen Arthur Benade's Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics mentioned in this forum. I certainly can't claim to know it well, or to understand most of it. But I think it is one of the best regarded textbooks on musical acoustics written by a first class scientist who also enjoyed making musical instruments (especially wind) when he wasn't busy with the day job. I'm mentioning this here because it's a book I turn to in curiosity when the behaviour of woodwinds is in question. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
On 9 Feb 2011, at 07:20, Paul Gretton wrote: So in fact the variety of pitches for the NSP is extremely traditional! Two hundred years ago it wouldn't have been thought in any way remarkable. Hello Paul and others, I must say, I disagree here. It's often forgotten that the the NSP of two hundred years ago - the conventional fully keyed form - was the product of a single workshop and was played in a relatively narrow geographical area. There's no reason to suppose that Robert and James Reid were careless about the consistency of pitch of their products. No doubt, they would be extremely surprised to know of the latitude in pitch (and indeed tuning) of many of today's pipes. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
On 9 Feb 2011, at 15:11, Paul Gretton wrote: I would assume that the Reids worked to a chosen pitch standard in the same way as did Silbermann or - more relevant here - the Hotteterre gang. And at least the Hotteterre gang had the sense to pitch their instruments a whole tone below modern pitch, their G being more or less concert F. No NSP's there, but the next best thing. Some delectable 12 keyed musettes. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
On 9 Feb 2011, at 16:02, Anthony Robb wrote: Hello Francis, John and others with the stamina to keep reading this, The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. Hello Anthony and others, Well, not quite as far as the Andrew Davison set is concerned. What Julia said was that when a reed was first put in the chanter it was said to have played at F+20. I took that to be an interesting and amusing anecdote without any specific conclusions to be drawn from it [is that correct, Julia?] Incidentally, the owner of that set is admiring and appreciative of the work done by the expert fettler who did the best possible job. However, he acknowledges that the performance at F+20 of that historic set is not ideal at the present pitch which is (if other Reid chanters are taken as valid examples) very far from that originally intended. What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that with Ross/Nelson figures. I have recorded hole positions from several Reid chanters. This is easier than one might suppose because although hole sizes have wandered over the years, their original position is usually indicated very clearly on the opposite wall of the bore where the Reid drill made contact. It's evident that Reid revised some of his hole positions - a normal and sensible thing for any woodwind maker. As you would expect, the Reid scale is shorter, as you would expect from a higher pitched instrument. Julia is right to point out that Reid hole positions are provided (very accurately) in Cocks Bryan. Ross/Nelson figures are not identical and I believe Colin's pattern also shows some evolution, as one would expect. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
(for anyone puzzled by this discussion, one cent is 1/00 th of a semitone. So 20 cents is 1/10th of a whole tone, or 1/10th of the difference between C and D.That's not a subtle difference, of course!) On 7 Feb 2011, at 17:26, Julia Say wrote: Shortly after Andrew Davison took over the 17 key R. Reid set he now plays (which apparently is c. 1836) the fettler who helped him set it up remarked to me that they first, without altering *anything* put in a reed - design unspecified - and Andrew played it. The resulting pitch, without any work, oddities or messing on, was F + 20. Hello Julia and others, Well, that's an interesting and fortunate anecdote, but are you suggesting that it's anything more than amusing coincidence? I have no problem over the large number of pipes being pitched at F+20 cents. I can happily play on a concert F set for a whole evening with a roomful of pipers playing at variously F+20, F+ 35 and F + whatever, though I must admit the bag arm gets a little tired with the extra squeezing, and it does no favours to tone or intonation. People should be at liberty to play at whatever pitch they like, provided that they and fellow players don't mind the musical consequences. What worries me is the notion often put forward on this forum that F+20 cents is a 'standard' pitch for pipes. It isn't a standard: it's a current tendency, and nobody can accurately predict how long this will last. My instinct - and it's no more than that, though based on precedents in woodwind history - is that pitch will revert a more widely accepted standard, i.e concert pitch. The good news there is that there may well be plenty of remunerative work for the pipe fettlers of the future in converting chanters to F concert! Playing music is primarily a sociable activity and there seems to be little point in encouraging an NSP 'sharp-F ghetto' where players can only play comfortably with their own kind. For that reason, I think that anyone considering buying and learning pipes should consider whether they intend to play primarily with other instruments or just with with pipes . If pipe-makers are offering to provide pipes set up in these alternative pitches, they should make themselves known. Your narrative of the way the present situation came about is a good and accurate account, I think. what is notable is that historically, each step along this path towards F + 20 has been for some negative reason and not because of some advantage of musicality or encouraging our pipes to play a part in any wider musical context. I have no axe to grind over F+20 Cents or F concert. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice. What I do think, however is that there should actually *be* a choice! Cheers, Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
On 7 Feb 2011, at 13:03, Gibbons, John wrote: Reid pipes were generally made sharper than the current F+; close to modern F# in many cases, so Francis and Graham tell me. Yes, that's right. Or to be more precise, Reid pipes play most happily at F# using (and insert italics here) the most appropriate dimensions of the modern reed which may well be pretty different from the kind of reed that Reid intended (conclude italics and insert exclamation marks). F# is a lovely pitch, enhancing the staccato capabilities of the chanter without encountering the compromises in terms of hole spacing, comfort and tone evident in many G chanters. F and G both have the advantage of convenience since they're both standard pitches - even if you do derive them them from the equally tempered A=440 scale and then proceed to play a non-equally tempered scale! Both have the advantage that they are sociable pitches in that they can be played with fixed pitch instruments, concertinas for example. As for F + 20, its use is unknown in the rest of the civilised world. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
On 17 Jan 2011, at 13:00, Margaret Watchorn wrote: I suspect both these tunes are based on the old north Northumbrian air 'The Throttlin' of the Reeds/Reids' Margaret, I think you're probably right. The problem with Rotting of The Cotton Threads is the question: why would anyone want to do this? Rotting is part of linen production, extracting fibres from long stems. With cotton, the stuff is already white and fluffy and generally lovely. The melody itself has aspects of the 2nd Viennese school, with those improbable abrupt leaps. Could this be one of McBeaumont's compositions? Or am I making this already rotten thread even worse? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
An arduous piece of research Richard, for which we are all indebted! Clearly this represents a tradition in its debased and probably final stage. The bonds holding the whole thing together are finally disintegrating. It seems quite probable that the decline and fall of the Roman Empire may have had as its root cause the use of the wrong sort of oil. Probably bunged up their lamps something rotten. The title here refers to a linen process perhaps, also known as retting? I suppose most people know of the abc resource 'ABC Convert-A-Matic' where you can see the dots and hear the notes of this or any other tune?: http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html Francis On 16 Jan 2011, at 22:45, Richard York wrote: Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. I couldn't find anything called The Rotting of the Cotton Threads as such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called The Rotting of the Threads, which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up among the yellowing manuscripts. It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. Strange, and rather sad, really. It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be delighted to see it. I copy it below in abc's X:1 T: The Rotting of the Threads C:Trad? M:3/4 Q:120 L:1/8 K:G |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:| M:7/8 |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:4/4 .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ M:9/8 .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| M:3/4 .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| Best wishes, Richard. On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
Paul, this largely depends on what the pipe-maker has used in the first place. Shellac would be an appropriate material for antique pipes, fulfilling two functions, both as an adhesive and a gap-filler. In this case the material would be solid shellac rather than in solution which will obviously change in volume through evaporation. Most NSPs on this planet are made by David Burleigh, his total being well in excess of 3000 sets. His preferred adhesive is UHU and that's what I would recommend if you own one of those. Francis On 15 Jan 2011, at 11:56, Paul Scott wrote: After having fixed a leaky tuning bead fitting I have to replace the brass ferrule and end stopper. Am I correct that shellac is the best solution? I know that there are plenty of other adhesives but would Shellac in alcohol be the stuff I am looking for? It us advertised as sanding sealer and says on the label that it is pure shellac and alcohol. They are lignum drones. Paul Scott To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
On 15 Jan 2011, at 14:44, Paul Scott wrote: It is a set made in the 70's by my godfather who followed Colin ross's designs and advice. I used a hot hair dryer and pliers to pull off the ferrule and I think there is shellac underneath. So if I applied the solution and then allowed it to get sticky would that solve the evaporation issue? Thanks for the further information, Paul. Yes, that sounds like a successful way to do it. You'll have to assess whether you removed any appreciable amount of shellac in removing the ferrule. It may well be that there's enough there for you to simply reverse the process, i.e. warm the ferrule and shove it back on. I'd just try that and see if it works. If it doesn't, it isn't a critical thing. Just paint some more on, or try Philip's method. Shellac is a wonderful material, an effective adhesive but instantly reversible. As an adhesive it is relatively tolerant of oily surfaces which is a useful property when dealing with NSPs. Incidentally over these past cold months the humidity has often dropped to an unusually low level, resulting in shrinkage of wooden objects. I bet quite a few people are finding that ferrules are loose. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:31, Julia Say replied: ( a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . .) And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. It's one of those things that has no definitive answer. Almost every option has a possible disadvantage as Dorothy Parker pointed out.: 'Résumé' Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. I haven't found the beginning of this thread so I don't know what actual use is being proposed for the oil. Is it for use in the bore? There are historical sources mentioning the use of bore oil (almond, I think) but these are for flutes and recorders as I remember, where an oxidised coating (in a comparatively large bore) will cause virtually no problem and may actually be beneficial. The only historical treatise relevant to the present discussion is Hotteterre's Méthode pour la Musette containing comprehensive maintenance instructions for this smallpipe, all of which are directly applicable to NSPs. He makes no mention of oiling either bore or key-pads. I don't think this is likely to be an accidental omission from such comprehensive instructions. More likely perhaps, it was thought that the oils then available then were likely to bring more problems than benefit in a very narrow bore. I don't know whether anyone has tried playing in an oxygen-free environment. Nobody has yet commented on this. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: rotting of the cotton threads
On 14 Jan 2011, at 20:07, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: If we are going to discuss possible effects of mineral oil (liquid paraffin) on thread Yes, there's been a lot of interesting discussion about that but why on earth would anyone want to use liquid lubricant on thread or anywhere else for that matter? Liquid-anything tends not to stay where you put it. That's a significant disadvantage. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
A Strathspey, surely? Francis On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't learned yet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Intonation
Thanks John. It's a gem! Sunny up here on the plateau. Francis On 12 Jan 2011, at 01:11, John Liestman wrote: Francis, you must have the earlier pre-plateau version! I have posted a pdf file version at http://www.liestman.com/plateau.pdf for anyone to read that is so inclined. It is called Drone Reeds and the Plateau of Stability but it is truly the plateau of happiness if you can achieve it! Let me know if for some reason the link does not work and I will just email you (whoever you are . . . or is) a copy. Happy droning on the plateau! On 1/11/2011 12:18 PM, Francis Wood wrote: Colin, are you using composite drone reeds or all-cane ones? Adjustment techniques will, of course differ. Whatever you're using, I'd check the drone itself as a priority, checking that everything is sealing correctly (tuning beads are often suspect), that the bore is clean and smooth, and that the tone hole is entirely free of any invisible debris or excess lubrication, which often accumulates invisibly there. Any of these deficiencies will cause instability. I have John Liestman's excellent book, but probably an earlier version than the one you mentioned, since I can't find the reed advice on those or adjacent pages. I do recall reading John's remarks about the parameters of stability (I think he calls that area the 'Plateau of Happiness' or something similar) and this may be in a subsequent edition or even in an NPS Magazine article. It's very good information. Of course, it is one thing to adjust a good reed and an entirely different matter to spend ages on a drone reed that does not work well and never will. Unfortunately some drone reeds are not worthy of that attention. Pitch of almost any woodwind reed will rise with pressure. The ideal reed behaviour for NSPs is one where pitch changes relatively little, and evenly, with all drone reeds and the chanter reed behaving similarly. That's a rare but not impossible situation, requiring not only skill but luck. I suspect that as much success comes from knowing when to reject a reed, as knowing when and how to adjust it. Francis On 11 Jan 2011, at 12:40, Colin and Cheryl McNaught wrote: Following on from these sage comments, does anyone have ideas about what causes some drones to be significantly more pressure sensitive than others. By this I mean their pitch varies more for a given change in bag pressure. Once they are adjusted for pitch and pressure there doesn't seem to be anything else to tweak without spoiling the pitch/pressure set-ups. I have a set that is very stable and another that has a couple of drones that aren't and would like to improve them. I always try to play other pipe sets when at NSP get-togethers and it's been my experience that every set I have played has some quirky notes. I'm sure there's a reed dependency in this too. Making small (often unconscious) adjustments in bag pressure seems to be a part of playing this instrument well (just as embouchure adjustments on, e.g. oboe, flute). Consequently, a set of drones that is more stable can result in a 'sweeter' end result than one that isn't. Colin (McNaught) On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM,[1]gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: As many notes on an NSP chanter can be bent about a quarter tone without putting the drones far out - at least on a good reed day - I guess one difference between a good piper and a fairly good one is the former will squeeze notes into tune unconsciously and accurately, the latter consciously and only fairly accurately. I often think of singing the note, so I have an idea of the pitch in my head, to aim for. Listening to the chord with the drones - if these are in tune - also helps with some notes. It is the notes that harmonise with the drones which are most exposed if out of tune, so recognising a just 3rd or whatever tells you you've got there. The singing trick doesn't work so well if you are still thinking equal-tempered, mind. So chords are better. Long notes are good practice for this - I wonder if this is one reason Tom Clough liked playing hymn tunes? 'Oh God our Help in Ages Past' (aka St Anne, or 'The Goldfish') is a good one for this, dead slow. I sometimes use this to see if the drones are 'really' in tune. When I started playing NSP after playing the flute for years, my embouchure would bend to try to bring notes in - ineffective of itself, but I found I was doing something useful as well, as the notes came more into tune (I pinched a non-existent thumbhole to get the top octave on the whistle, as well). That first set I had needed a bit of variable squeezing to bring some notes close to where
[NSP] Re: Intonation
Colin, are you using composite drone reeds or all-cane ones? Adjustment techniques will, of course differ. Whatever you're using, I'd check the drone itself as a priority, checking that everything is sealing correctly (tuning beads are often suspect), that the bore is clean and smooth, and that the tone hole is entirely free of any invisible debris or excess lubrication, which often accumulates invisibly there. Any of these deficiencies will cause instability. I have John Liestman's excellent book, but probably an earlier version than the one you mentioned, since I can't find the reed advice on those or adjacent pages. I do recall reading John's remarks about the parameters of stability (I think he calls that area the 'Plateau of Happiness' or something similar) and this may be in a subsequent edition or even in an NPS Magazine article. It's very good information. Of course, it is one thing to adjust a good reed and an entirely different matter to spend ages on a drone reed that does not work well and never will. Unfortunately some drone reeds are not worthy of that attention. Pitch of almost any woodwind reed will rise with pressure. The ideal reed behaviour for NSPs is one where pitch changes relatively little, and evenly, with all drone reeds and the chanter reed behaving similarly. That's a rare but not impossible situation, requiring not only skill but luck. I suspect that as much success comes from knowing when to reject a reed, as knowing when and how to adjust it. Francis On 11 Jan 2011, at 12:40, Colin and Cheryl McNaught wrote: Following on from these sage comments, does anyone have ideas about what causes some drones to be significantly more pressure sensitive than others. By this I mean their pitch varies more for a given change in bag pressure. Once they are adjusted for pitch and pressure there doesn't seem to be anything else to tweak without spoiling the pitch/pressure set-ups. I have a set that is very stable and another that has a couple of drones that aren't and would like to improve them. I always try to play other pipe sets when at NSP get-togethers and it's been my experience that every set I have played has some quirky notes. I'm sure there's a reed dependency in this too. Making small (often unconscious) adjustments in bag pressure seems to be a part of playing this instrument well (just as embouchure adjustments on, e.g. oboe, flute). Consequently, a set of drones that is more stable can result in a 'sweeter' end result than one that isn't. Colin (McNaught) On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:05 PM, [1]gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: As many notes on an NSP chanter can be bent about a quarter tone without putting the drones far out - at least on a good reed day - I guess one difference between a good piper and a fairly good one is the former will squeeze notes into tune unconsciously and accurately, the latter consciously and only fairly accurately. I often think of singing the note, so I have an idea of the pitch in my head, to aim for. Listening to the chord with the drones - if these are in tune - also helps with some notes. It is the notes that harmonise with the drones which are most exposed if out of tune, so recognising a just 3rd or whatever tells you you've got there. The singing trick doesn't work so well if you are still thinking equal-tempered, mind. So chords are better. Long notes are good practice for this - I wonder if this is one reason Tom Clough liked playing hymn tunes? 'Oh God our Help in Ages Past' (aka St Anne, or 'The Goldfish') is a good one for this, dead slow. I sometimes use this to see if the drones are 'really' in tune. When I started playing NSP after playing the flute for years, my embouchure would bend to try to bring notes in - ineffective of itself, but I found I was doing something useful as well, as the notes came more into tune (I pinched a non-existent thumbhole to get the top octave on the whistle, as well). That first set I had needed a bit of variable squeezing to bring some notes close to where they should be. Intonation is a mystery on most instruments, and the hardest part to get right. A related issue is tone colour - finger vibrato alters the harmonics of a note substantially, changing the colour a lot; pressure vibrato much less so. Taking a lower finger off the chanter may vary the pitch up or down, so you can use finger vibrato to improve the intonation as well as the colour. Or worsen the intonation, if you use the wrong finger. Knowing which lower finger moves which notes in which direction is something one ought to
[NSP] Re: Like never before
On 7 Jan 2011, at 23:56, Gibbons, John wrote: I will be going back to the site for a 2nd helping once the headache's gone away. This is what happens. After the initial shock you go back. In my case, quite a lot. It's best heard on Spotify, though all the tracks can be downloaded here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tracy.firby/WyrDGeneS/WyrdgenesDownloads.html I still like it! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Like never before
On 8 Jan 2011, at 10:11, Julia Say wrote: N'brian music with pizzazz. Or as it is known in my immediate circle, with b*ks. Music with Rocks in... (Pratchett!) Well said! And passion. So sadly lacking in some places I can far too easily think of. Whoever it is has a huge enthusiasm for this repertoire and plenty of musicality, presenting it successfully in an unfamiliar way. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: A 70 cent divergence
On 8 Jan 2011, at 14:37, Alan Corkett wrote: Adults with amusia Now then. Does this describe an absence of any sense of humour? 'The Ill -Tempered Piper' perhaps? As for drones, can't someone develop the Hard Anger pipes. Same as NSP's mostly. Except that the drones are in tune Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Drone Tuning
Colin, the thing you recall is Rob Say's Northumbrian Smallpipes Simulator: http://www.milecastle27.co.uk/simulator/ I'm sure that Rob might reply himself, omitting to say how absolutely brilliant it is. So I shall do so instead. Francis On 7 Jan 2011, at 18:53, Colin wrote: This talk of drone tuning reminded me of something. Some years ago, someone on this list directed us to a website which had (I hope I can explain this and make sense) a keynote playing and you had to use sliders to tune the drones (using the mouse) and got a score for how near you were (it was an aid to tuning by ear) and showed how far out you were (I think it also had a this is how it should sound audio as well). Anyone remember it (I lost the URL several PCs ago) and does it still exist? Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 12:11 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Drone Tuning Anthony, Certainly adding drones on the 2nd time through, works well on UP, especially on airs. Irish slow airs, being usually vocal music rather than pipe music, maybe don't require a drone so fundamentally. Musically this idea makes less sense on drone music though - double-tonic tunes etc. But with NSP, it is rare to have an on-off drone key, so it is hard for us to do in practice. As for drones being out of tune on recordings - as I said, it is the effect on the listener which matters. I can think of an otherwise excellent recording where the drones were badly out in places, so I know what you mean. But shutting them off is a cop-out, not a solution. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 07 January 2011 10:52 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; rob@milecastle27.co.uk; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning What you say is true, but still ignores Paddy Maloney's point of adding drones further into (even 'proper') pipes tunes for greater impact. We also have to remember that out of tune drones (and this unfortunately is the norm it seems to me) do little to enhance the music. This is true even in the most surprising quarters i.e. modern recordings where retakes could be done fairly easily to correct this. Yes drones are wonderful and powerful but this power can also be, and all too often is, destructive. Anthony --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning To: 'Anthony Robb' anth...@robbpipes.com, nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu, rob@milecastle27.co.uk rob@milecastle27.co.uk Date: Friday, 7 January, 2011, 10:17 Not at all - but pipes do sound better with drones, which are a fundamental part of the instrument, and also of what we might call 'proper' pipe music. There are some tunes where drones don't work, and some multi-instrument arrangements where they might get in the way, but - on pipe tunes at least - there is a price to pay if you shut them off. My warning was just to your more literal-minded readers out there, who might not think about the effect of their music on listeners. John -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 07 January 2011 09:48 To: [3]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [4]rob@milecastle27.co.uk; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning John, please remember I was talking in the context of switching off drones to let the music shine forth, not silly things like playing a semitone above everyone else! Many general music sessions involve key changes from G to D to A. Are you saying that pipes should not be adding their crystalline punchiness to the mix just because they have to be droneless? Cheers Anthony --- On Thu, 6/1/11, Gibbons, John [5]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John [6]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning To: Anthony Robb [7]anth...@robbpipes.com, [8]...@cs.dartmouth.edu [9]...@cs.dartmouth.edu, [10]rob@milecastle27.co.uk [11]rob@milecastle27.co.uk Date: Thursday, 6 January, 2011, 20:50 Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I would argue is the main purpose of traditional music. Pleasing everyone else in the room might be a priority for some, as well! I have heard too many so-called traditional musicians play to please themselves (and nobody else) not to add this health warning. You get them everywhere, but I recall the bloke who wound his flute up to E flat because that's the key Matt Molloy
[NSP] Like never before
Two hornpipes as you've never heard them before - The Wordsfail Hornpipe followed by Loudrocks. http://stash.alonetone.com/mp3/13649/Redesdale_Proudlocks_Hesleyside-WyrDGeneS.mp3 I must say, I really like this. To find out more, Google 'Wyrdgenes' Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday
I think the discussion was really about the best that can be heard in Northumbrian piping. Random timing and poor intonation can be heard in abundance whatever the instrument and has nothing to do with NSPs in particular. Rather than dwelling any further on mediocre musicality, I'd rather repeat what Inky Adrian recently said: Expression is emphasised in precision Carve that in stone above the entrance to the Academy of Smallpiping! And yes it also works for harpsichord playing so thanks to Paul Gretton for that thought. Francis On 21 Dec 2010, at 09:22, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: what Northumbrian pipes can do better than any other; that precise delivery of detached notes with duration and silences perfectly timed. But unfortunately the obsession with detaching the notes sometimes lead to the durations and silences being somewhat random - thus destroying the rhythmic flow. This combined with poor intonation (and possibly cheap electronic echo effects, which I gather to my amazement would appear to be compatible with proper piping) can lead to a result that is unlistenable. I do not wish to be unkind or discourteous, but if the cap fits c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday et al
On 19 Dec 2010, at 12:55, Richard York wrote: It would be interesting to know how many people, either within the North Eastern fold or out of it, were first inspired by hearing Mr Pigg's playing, though. Well, me for a start. Knowing almost nothing about traditional music, and never having heard of Northumbrian pipes, I came across the Billy Pigg LP on Leader Records in a record shop in Colchester. I liked the scholarly presentation with excellent illustrations and notes by Colin Ross and bought it immediately, thinking I'd got something fascinating and totally obscure. On the way home, I met the vicar's wife who said Oh, I see you've got the Billy Pigg LP! I immediately played it to my flat-mate who after a couple of minutes, said Do we have to have this on? But by then, I was hooked. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: WHW
On 19 Dec 2010, at 15:47, Gibbons, John wrote: Good luck to any intrepid souls attempting the yomp on Boxing Day! It might be a chilly one! Yes, it will depend on the conditions. Title for a new march there . . . 'Yomp and Circumstance March' perhaps? Francis with apologies To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
On 17 Dec 2010, at 16:44, Tim Rolls wrote: Discuss! One of the most remarkable qualities of this paper is Doubleday's extraordinary talent for using a colossal number of words to say absolutely nothing of any importance. A very narrow bore, in my view. Perhaps I'm being too unkind to him. The paper's an interesting curiosity. I got it a while ago as a print-on-demand thing from Amazon. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
On 15 Dec 2010, at 12:05, Gibbons, John wrote: But Rob illustrates a simple feather duster - the 17 keyed ones are musically far more versatile... Is that a Peacock feather duster? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] BBC Radio bagpipes programme
BBC Radio 7 is broadcasting 'The Secret History of Bagpipes' at 14.30 today Described as 'Tom Morton investigates Pipes and Politics', this item may be of interest to NSP players. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
