[NSP] Re: small coals, and the peacock following the hen
Derek Lofthouse recently wrote: A question I forgot to ask though, are these 2 tunes played much? Hello Derek The tunes are popular in some circles and have been for some time. I remember Chuck Fleming leading us all with 'Peacock Followed ..' in the pub at Kathryn's (Tickell) 21st birthday party yelling do it again after each time through with words to the effect that it was a very enjoyable tune, the best Northumbrian one he'd come across (but not so politely put). We played it 10 or 12 times - it might have even been more. More recently I taught the same tune by ear to 150 youngsters at The Youth Summer School in Durham (Folkworks) with the words: Won't you come cuddle me, cuddy Now won't you come cuddle me reet Won't you come cuddle me, cuddy Just as ye did yesterday neet .. As for 'Small Coals..' it was also popular with the same age group and I did some 2nds for the nimble-fingered to do. I've got it as a pdf which I can send down the wires to anyone interested. Best wishes Anthony From: DEREK LOFTHOUSE dloftho...@shaw.ca To: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 15 August 2012, 14:14 Subject: [NSP] Re: small coals, and the peacock following the hen Thanks Matt, Anthony, John and Kevin for your thoughts on these tunes. I will try the ideas you guys have suggested and I guess go with what works best for me. I guess it a matter of what you are used to, when i play border pipes I have no problem with 'discordant' drones, ex. playing in Bm with A drones, but i am used to just playing mainly G and D tunes (with the occassional venture into A and E)on the NSP with the appropriate drones. I'll and do more of it and maybe it will start sounding better to me. A question I forgot to ask though, are these 2 tunes played much? thanks again Derek - Original Message - From: Matt Seattle [1]theborderpi...@googlemail.com To: [2]nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:27:50 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: small coals, and the peacock following the hen On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Anthony Robb [1][3]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: Here is what Forster Charlton, Colin Ross and Roland Wright put in the introduction to the second edition to the NPS 1st Tune Book: Small Coals and Little Money and Cuckold Come Out The Amrey are in an unusual mode for which the drones should be tuned to the notes A and E. Any drone which will not tune to either of these two notes is best shut off! Personally, I agree - others don't. Where I disagree is in saying they are in the same mode. Small Coals is a straightforward A minor tune, although with no 6th (F#) it's neither dorian nor aeolian mode. There is a case for tuning the drones to A for Small Coals if you insist on the drones being concordant with the home key or mode of the tune. I don't personally find that an issue, and neither do other bagpipe traditions, where drones are what drones were meant to be - fixed, so that tunes in different modes sound like they are in different modes. For me, Cuckold is a mixed-mode tune with alternating A minor and C major strains, where A drones have the effect of masking the C major sections because, over A drones, these also sound like A minor. So, if I were an NSP player, I'd leave the drones in G for this tune, which I am well aware is heresy. [2][4]http://youtu.be/71KwJ11O0fI -- References 1. mailto:[5]anth...@robbpipes.com 2. [6]http://youtu.be/71KwJ11O0fI To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:theborderpi...@googlemail.com 2. mailto:nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com 4. http://youtu.be/71KwJ11O0fI 5. mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com 6. http://youtu.be/71KwJ11O0fI 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: small coals, and the peacock following the hen
Hello Derek' In a way you've answered your own question. G D drones would presumably have been used originally for these tunes as they probably precede the development of tuning beads but they don't sound right to many people. Here is what Forster Charlton, Colin Ross and Roland Wright put in the introduction to the second edition to the NPS 1st Tune Book: Small Coals and Little Money and Cuckold Come Out The Amrey are in an unusual mode for which the drones should be tuned to the notes A and E. Any drone which will not tune to either of these two notes is best shut off! Personally, I agree - others don't. As for speed it is probably an age thing but slower (allowing pulse to permeate through the tune butters my parsnip) these days (wasn't always so). I've put a clip here [1]http://http://www.robbpipes.com/Hesleyside-Spoots for people unfamiliar with this lovely pulse (again not all agree but it is the quintessential Northumbrian way of doing it). Two of the players are from 'The Shepherds' and were the best exponents of the real old country style of playing which cut across all instruments (including pipes) in their part of the county. Hope this helps Best wishes Anthony From: DEREK LOFTHOUSE dloftho...@shaw.ca To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 14 August 2012, 14:36 Subject: [NSP] small coals, and the peacock following the hen I decided to play through the contents of the first 30 tunes book, just to see how many of them i actually knew, or could play. Fortunately i've played most of them. There are only 2 that i had never looked at, as the title suggests, Small coals and little money, and the Peacock followed the hen. Both of these appear to be what (I think) Matt calls bi-modal. switching between G and A minor, they sort of resolve to G, although the g drones (to me anyway) dont always seem to work. What drones do people use on these tunes? Also how fast should they be played. I've heard the Tickel version of small coals, but should it really be that fast? thanks in advance Derek To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://http//www.robbpipes.com/Hesleyside-Spoots 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP spotted on ebay UK
Hello Mike I agree there is nothing of the Hedworth style in this set - keys especially. Hedworth taught silver smithing to Colin Ross and was a master of beautiful keywork. His style is unique with the key stem shaped and silver soldered to reach completely across the domed round bit (hope my technical language if not too baffling). There is a good sample of various makers' keywork at the bottom of this page: [1]http://www.robbpipes.com/WindyGyleBand.html Hedworth made the ivory (G) chanter and it has absolutely typical Hedworth keys. As aye Anthony From: Mike Sharp mike_sh...@pacbell.net To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2012, 22:28 Subject: [NSP] Re: NSP spotted on ebay UK Colin Hill writes: I saw a distinct Hedworth look in the chanter but note it's brass fittings. He, I think, used NS (he did on mine) and there's more ivory on this one. I pretty sure this isn't Bill Hedworth's work. I don't see his distinctive rolled (crimped) line that he used to anchor the metalwork to the wood, and the keys are also of a style different that what I'm use to seeing in his work. --Mike -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.robbpipes.com/WindyGyleBand.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] TOTM
Hello all, Here's my offering. [1]http://youtu.be/sfiCRPct9vQ Warmest best Anthony -- References 1. http://youtu.be/sfiCRPct9vQ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] February TOTM
Hello All, John Dally has kindly invited me to choose the TOTM for February and it is: The Keelman Ower Land This tune has been a favourite since 1973 when (according to Johnny Handle) Carole I gave its first public airing in years. It is still yielding up its secrets 38 years on. 3/2 tunes are becoming more popular and widely established as shown by the following abstract from Stewart Hardy submitted to the North Atlantic Fiddle Convention (A Cos go Cluas - trans. aEUR~from foot to ear') 2012 I think it might be of interest to some: Working with Dinosaurs Triple-time Hornpipes Stewart Hardy The triple-time hornpipes of the British Isles suffered a dramatic reversal of fortune during the eighteenth century: initially one of the most widely played tune forms, at its end the decline was such that if extinction was not complete, then continued existence was critically endangered. Not until the last quarter of the twentieth century was there a significant effort to reawaken interest in this type of tune. A wealth of fabulous material has been unearthed, containing great energy and appeal for performer and listener alike. Without an unbroken oral tradition and with the disappearance of dances associated with these tunes, there are significant challenges to developing historically and contextually informed interpretations. Clues are found in the surviving manuscripts and published collections, folk song and literary descriptions of village dance. Attempts to reconstruct the dances also provide illuminating material. Rediscovering and resurrecting triple-time hornpipes presents an opportunity to observe the shift from social process to aesthetic product in reverse - from ear to foot rather than from foot to ear. In this paper I will explore these issues, demonstrate tunes and suggest some practical and well-founded solutions to problems of interpretation. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: 4mm or 6mm staples
Hello Kevin First off, I'm assuming you mean tube and not rod? I follow Mike Nelson's advice on this and use model aircraft aluminium fuel tubing - 4mm internal, 4.75mm external diameters. This is very easily cut to length with a large scalpel/sharp Stanley knife ( simply roll it with the blade to score it then carefully snap the piece off). It is also very easy to shape but be gentle with the metal former otherwise the edges of the staple end can be pushed outwards making it impossible to get a good seating for the cane slip(s). Hope this helps. Anthony From: Kevin tilb...@yahoo.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 3:33 PM Subject: [NSP] 4mm or 6mm staples Hi to All, can any one advise me what size staples to buy for making NSP chanter reeds? in my local D.I.Y. there are brass rods of 4mm or 6mm, but i read in my booklet on making reeds that it is 3/16th (imperial) and my chart says 3/16th is 4mm. so what do i go for? is 6mm too big or is 4 too small? can one get 5mm rods now? any advice on what to buy. thanks kevin -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle
Hello Kevin and all I noticed this in Kevin's email: ...so i closed the G hole with glue at one side until it was in tune. I'm wondering why you put the glue at one side rather than the top? Putting glue at the side will flatten the note by making the hole smaller but this would need more glue than putting it at the top of the hole which flattens it by a) slightly moving the hole down and b) making the hole smaller. This double whammy effect means less glue needed and (more often than not) bright tone preserved. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Dots for 'The Primitives'
Hellos apiece, Some might be interested to know I've put the dots for all of the tracks on 'The Primitives' album as pdf files in a handy zipped folder. Several people have asked for this and I made an attempt to put down the dots as close to the versions on the album as I could manage. This may be of general interest to pipers and not just those who want to play along to the disc. Just email me to get the folder. Best wishes Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Rachel's Scottische
For the benefit of dancers, callers and dance band members, I forgot to say the tune is great for the 'Ideal Schottische' and Pete's dots come complete with his seconds which really do make a tasty job of the whole piece. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] TOTM (nearly)
Hello Folks John Dally's beautifully paced hornpipes (and their snaps) connect really well for me with this new tune by Pete Cryer which is about two weeks old. This version is a reasonable attempt at it (recorded shortly after I learnt it on Tuesday evening) once again recorded on Jimmy's Baty of Wark set. It's a schottische rather than a hornpipe but for me these tune types are close cousins. The tune had a good reception at the Cleveland Branch of the NPS on Wednesday evening and it might well appeal to some on this list. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b--ny91Y0tM Pete is happy to supply dots in pdf form ([2]petecr...@btinternet.com). Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b--ny91Y0tM 2. mailto:petecr...@btinternet.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] TOTM (ulterior motive)
Hello all Some may remember I used Jimmy Little's (Baty of Wark) set for The Bewshaugh and Rememebr Me Hornpipes. This set has now been checked and valued by Graham Wells and Jimmy has offered to sell it to me. Consequently I need to sell (reluctantly) a lovely blackwood and solid silver 7 key chanter (normal 7 + low C B) by Colin Ross. This has been reeded by Colin and comes with a solid silver and blackwood interchangeable stock. I'm looking for offers in the region of -L-800 (GBP) for this - it can be heard playing President Garfield's here: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAnjWROxmjc I also need to sell my concert D set by Henry Knox (including curverd oak bellows by Tom Swinney). These can be heard playing Jock of Hazeldene (using Tom's bellows) here: [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VAr4cyILh8 I'm looking for about -L-850 (GBP) for this set. I will be advertising both items in due course but thought I'd mention them here first. I can send photographs to anyone who might be interested. Apologies if all this is out of order but although a long way short of what is needed these sales will allow me to stake a claim so to speak. As fellow pipers you can understand what it is to be smitten by a particular set and so might forgive any transgression. Anthony -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAnjWROxmjc 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VAr4cyILh8 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] TOTM Hornpipe(s)
Hellos apiece Here we go - flawed as usual - two great tunes that are becoming popular but could be more so. I've been doing up Jimmy Little's pipes which have spent the last 18 years languishing in their box. I've given them a new chanter reed and have re-tongued three of the drone reeds. The set has only been working fully for a couple of days but should get even better with more playing. According to Jack Armstrong they were made by Baty of Wark circa 1850. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shd_W9kzXpo Best wishes Anthony -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shd_W9kzXpo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Farewell to Whisky - Niel Gow
Hello Francis Can't help on that front but I'm told Jack Armstrong would launch into that tune when his glass was empty. Anthony --- On Tue, 13/9/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Farewell to Whisky - Niel Gow To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 13 September, 2011, 17:54 The note accompanying the fine tune 'Farewell to Whisky' appearing in the Gow 5th collection states: This tune alludes to prohibiting the making of Whisky in 1799. It is expressive of a Highlander's sorrow on being deprived of his favourite beverage. Also in the 5th collection is the remedy to this distressing situation: 'Whisky Welcome back again', with the note: Alluding to permitting Whisky to be distilled in the year 1801. It is a merry dancing Tune. I seem to remember reading that the prohibition was caused by a shortage of grain. Can anyone provide anything more specific about the relevant circumstances in 1799 - 1801? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Alice Burn Emily Hoile
Some might be interested to know I sent a couple of tracks recorded recently by Emily Alice down to Radio 3. The response has been very positive and as a result they will be playing on this week's 'In Tune' (Thurs 15 Sept. 16:30 - 18:30 local time). Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Trivia
Hello Hilary - not if you do all 73 verses! Anthony --- On Sun, 7/8/11, Hilary Paton h.pa...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: From: Hilary Paton h.pa...@blueyonder.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Trivia To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com Date: Sunday, 7 August, 2011, 10:03 Since she's called Chevy and doesn't particularly like the pipesI should think Chevy Chase as its short!! Hilary - Original Message - From: Francis Wood [1]oatenp...@googlemail.com To: Dartmouth NPS [2]nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 8:55 PM Subject: [NSP] Trivia Since it's August . . . . What tunes does your dog prefer? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oatenp...@googlemail.com 2. http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: TOTM/shameless plug
Hello Dave Thanks for the copy of Mad Moll. It looks like a/the precursor of Peacock Followed The Hen to me but Matt would know better. As for modal A tunes on my Primitives, I sometimes move the sliding parts so that the two smallest ends go on the drones below and the big G end goes on little g. This gives me a pair of drones e A but the pipes don't sing as well like that, so although it's possible I rarely do it. It can be fun though and I might give it a whirl sometime soon. I'll keep you posted off list. Cheers Anthony --- On Sun, 31/7/11, Dave S david...@pt.lu wrote: From: Dave S david...@pt.lu Subject: [NSP] Re: TOTM/shameless plug To: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com Cc: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 31 July, 2011, 21:00 Hi Anthony, Would it be a possibility for you to play the 1697/8 Playford Mad Moll on your primitive set? If you could get a drone pair to G C (assuming it's G setup) Mad moll is in Am and has no Fnats in it. I have attached a scan for you -- I know the NSP site will strip it off --- if anyone wants a copy let me know and I will check with Barry/Tim to get it on site somewhere best Dave S On 7/29/2011 11:16 AM, Anthony Robb wrote: Hello all I've been reluctant to vote on this since our house is fighting back whilst we put in a new kitchen, downstairs loo and new wee studio. There is building dust everywhere and my pipes, mics and other gear are packed away for the duration. Even though I can't contribute musically I would go for Peacock. Perhaps most will be familiar with the snippet: Aal the neet ower and ower And aal the neet ower agyen Aal the net ower and ower The peacock followed the hen The cock's a dainty dish The hen's aal hollow within There's nee deceit in a puddin' An' pie's a dainty thing I also think of (but no idea why or where it comes from) Won't ye come cuddle me cuddy Now won't ye come cuddle me reet Won't you come cuddle me cuddy Just as ye did yesterday neet That's about all I can offer on TOTM but I also thought some might be interested to know that I have put my chanter where my mouth is so to speak and had a very happy off-the-cuff couple of days putting down 16 tracks (4 of them double tracked) on my keyless pipes (The Primitives as maker Bill Hedworth called them). I did it primarily as a teaching resource (even though there are a few finger-busting favourites) but I've been persuaded to go for a proper production of it. Interested parties can go here to see what Stewart Hardy makes of it: [1]www.robbpipes.com Thanks for any interest Anthony -- References 1. [1]http://www.robbpipes.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3793 - Release Date: 07/28/11 -- -- References 1. http://www.robbpipes.com/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: TOTM
--- On Sun, 31/7/11, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: Matt has argued an octave pair of drones tuned Gg will work for The Peacock/Mad Moll and other harmonically similar tunes like Cuckold - you want to show up the contrast between the Am and Cmaj in the first and second strain respectively. Hello John The quick answer for me is, I'm not sure I do but I might be open to persuasion. Might it be possible for you to borrow a recorder of some sort (cam or audio) and let us see/hear what you mean? I know if I tried my heart wouldn't be in it and I'd probably not be able to convince myself but the sound of someone playing like that with conviction might open my ears and mind. I should admit much of this is above my head (dots are one thing but theory is even lower down my list of must dos in whatever time I have left - as some one recently said, talking about music is like standing with two young boys in front of a sweet shop and explaining to them how sweets are made). Give us the theory by all means but please sweeten the pill with the sounds to bring it all to life. The only way to learn traditional music is by listening, listening, listening then listening again - an approach instilled in me 37 years ago by John Doonan and corroborated only last night by Jimmy Little. I'm sure you have experience and knowledge to impart - it would be great if you shared it aurally and not just on paper. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] TOTM/shameless plug
Hello all I've been reluctant to vote on this since our house is fighting back whilst we put in a new kitchen, downstairs loo and new wee studio. There is building dust everywhere and my pipes, mics and other gear are packed away for the duration. Even though I can't contribute musically I would go for Peacock. Perhaps most will be familiar with the snippet: Aal the neet ower and ower And aal the neet ower agyen Aal the net ower and ower The peacock followed the hen The cock's a dainty dish The hen's aal hollow within There's nee deceit in a puddin' An' pie's a dainty thing I also think of (but no idea why or where it comes from) Won't ye come cuddle me cuddy Now won't ye come cuddle me reet Won't you come cuddle me cuddy Just as ye did yesterday neet That's about all I can offer on TOTM but I also thought some might be interested to know that I have put my chanter where my mouth is so to speak and had a very happy off-the-cuff couple of days putting down 16 tracks (4 of them double tracked) on my keyless pipes (The Primitives as maker Bill Hedworth called them). I did it primarily as a teaching resource (even though there are a few finger-busting favourites) but I've been persuaded to go for a proper production of it. Interested parties can go here to see what Stewart Hardy makes of it: [1]www.robbpipes.com Thanks for any interest Anthony -- References 1. http://www.robbpipes.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
Hello Margaret Thanks for that. I hear what you say re Jimmy but this is hardly an obscure tune and it seems strange that he would pluck that name out of the air as any other tune with that name is proving elusive. As for the version in question you can hear it here: [1]http://www.folknortheast.com/archive/detail.asp?id=P0010010 I do find the thing fascinating and realise there's bound to be some human conjecture here. I'm wondering now if it might be another case of the 'big dog' interpretation of La Grande Chaine. Which it turns out came from youthful imaginings at a Folkworks Durham Youth Summer School and was then aired by Eleanor Walker on the Session tunes site, but then John Armstrong of Carrick is a much less fanciful source. The matter of real importance and certainty, of course, is that it has survived in various forms and is a cracking tune. Anthony --- On Thu, 14/7/11, Margaret Watchorn marga...@watchorn7.plus.com wrote: From: Margaret Watchorn marga...@watchorn7.plus.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 14 July, 2011, 22:51 I spent some time with John Armstrong c.1979/1980 playing tunes and going through his wonderful piles of mss. He was very kind and encouraging to a (then) young piper, and passed on some invaluable insights into how he played and what he thought about tunes. Unfortunately I don't have any record of playing the Morpeth Rant with him. I do remember that John was sometimes unsure of a tune from its title, but once the first notes were played, he knew exactly what it was. Similarly, the question 'How does it gan?' that Jimmy Little often asked when playing with Dishalagie was followed by an instant recall of the tune once it started. Best wishes Margaret -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 14 July 2011 22:04 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To make it absolutely clear, it was not I who attached the name Shield's to the soundclip. Whether the source - JA of C - gave it that title, I don't know. This is not impossible given the Clough connection. The FARNE Core Tunes article on Morpeth Rant (not my work) also gives the Shield attribution. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Gibbons, John [1][4]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: But isn't Matt just quoting the Cloughs' title there? Beware of secondary sources, in other words - they don't corroborate where they are drawn from. A citation of 'The Morpeth Rant' (new or old) from anyone but the Cloughs, with the Shields' title, from pre-1900 would be interesting - one from anywhere near as far back as 1770, when 'The Morpeth Rant' made its first virtual appearance, would be astonishing. John -- References 1. mailto:[5]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.folknortheast.com/archive/detail.asp?id=P0010010 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 5. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
--- On Fri, 15/7/11, Francis Wood [1]oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote:Matt's question raises the interesting issue of how tunes by known composers become 'traditional tunes' (what does that really mean?) Hello Francis A rather good question. The full title of the 'Folk' degree at Newcastle is 'Folk and Traditional Music'. The distinction is important and I offer the following thoughts. When a piece is composed (often with dots by the composer or transcribed) it would be regarded as an example of Folk. If it then gets taken up by a whole local community and passed on orally it begins its journey into 'The Tradition'. To my way of thinking a composed piece can accomplish this transformation (if enough people take it up and absorb it, individualise it and pass it on) in little more than a generation. The examples you give of The Hesleyside is an excellent example. Versions I heard played with trad players were always dotted as that's what the local dancers needed. Others prefer the plain version that's fine too. The thing for me is that once you have had dotted versions instilled the plainer ones don't conjure up the images or memories and so the dots don't just add to the tune they are from that standpoint an essential part of their character. The variation in opinion/personal choice is possibly the strongest evidence for the tune having reached traditional status. Warmest best Anthony -- References 1. http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oatenp...@googlemail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
Hello Matt Lovely! --- On Fri, 15/7/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 15 July, 2011, 12:42 Impressive, Francis. Now you've even uncovered where Shield has been Haydn for all these years. On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Francis Wood [1][1]oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: On 15 Jul 2011, at 10:41, Francis Wood wrote: Finally, there is an odd, tenuous and completely inconsequential connection between Shield and Morpeth. . . . .and another odd, inconsequential and irrelevant fact in the present discussion. Shield is buried under the same stone as Salomon who 'brought Haydn to England' as the inscription states: [2][2]http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi= 95553 [3][3]http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi= 89571 Shield knew Haydn well and was one of his closest English friends. francis To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[5]oatenp...@googlemail.com 2. [6]http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi=955 53 3. [7]http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi=895 71 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oatenp...@googlemail.com 2. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi= 3. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi= 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oatenp...@googlemail.com 6. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi=95553 7. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pvGRid=10244PIpi=89571 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
Hello Matt I know what you mean but something has persuaded John Armstrong of C to call it Shield's. It is strange he should latch on to that as a staunch Northumbrian when Morpeth Rant would have claimed it as one of ours. A mystery indeed! Anthony --- On Thu, 14/7/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com Cc: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 14 July, 2011, 20:23 Anthony You just can't believe everything you read, even on FARNE or in the Clough mss! The attribution is definitely 'out there', and is, I believe, a case of 'iconic attraction'. Tunes become posthumously attached to the names of famous musicians who neither composed them, nor claimed to have done so. I was contracted to do some of the FARNE work and there were things I declined to do because I didn't have the knowledge. You can fill in the rest. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 7:49 PM, Anthony Robb [1][1]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: Hello Folks I came across this on Farne, even if it's dodgy stuff it might explain the note in the Clough manuscript linking Morpeth Rant to Shield. The piece relates to a sound clip by John Armstrong of Carrick. Title: Shield's Hornpipe Also known as: Morpeth Rant, Morpeth's Hornpipe, Ivy Leaf Hornpipe, Jim Clarks' Hornpipe, Clark's Hornpipe Performer: John Armstrong, Composer: Shield, William (b.1749 d.1829 Although John Armstrong is best remembered as a musician, but he was also well known as a stick dresser and huntsman. He worked two large farms in Elsdon, near to the Army firing range. The Armstrong family claims an unbroken tradition of Northumbrian piping going back at least four generations. The Clough family visited the Armstrong family home at Raylees just after the First World War. It was here that John often played duets with Tom Clough. He also played with Billy Pigg. John owned a magnificent collection of pipe tunes, including original manuscripts by James Hill, Tom Clough and Robert Whinham. He provided many tunes for the Charlton Memorial Tune Book. A series of accidents to his hands, resulting in a stiffening of his fingers, forced John to concentrate on the fiddle in later years. He is featured on the Topic Album 'Bonny North Tyne' (12TS239) and was known to many amongst the older Northumbrian musicians as Carrick, a name taken from his dwelling place and a useful device to differentiate him from the many other John Armstrongs who live along the borders. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[3]anth...@robbpipes.com 2. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
Hello Both No, Matt it wasn't you it was Phil Ranson that did the original interview and recording. He was a librarian who did quite a bit of collecting. He lived near me when I lived in Wylam, he was at Hagg Bank a mile up the river and was a very down to earth Geordie lad. John A was an even more no nonsense man and player who impressed me deeply on the two or three occasions we met and had tunes together (Joe Hutton's and Archie Bertram's). I agree whith your main points but still claim a tenable stance in being puzzled by the whole thing. By the way the sound clip of John A playing is the perfect antidote to the 'hell for leather' approach so prevalent with most (but thankfully not all) youngsters at the moment. Anthony --- On Thu, 14/7/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 14 July, 2011, 22:03 To make it absolutely clear, it was not I who attached the name Shield's to the soundclip. Whether the source - JA of C - gave it that title, I don't know. This is not impossible given the Clough connection. The FARNE Core Tunes article on Morpeth Rant (not my work) also gives the Shield attribution. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Gibbons, John [1][1]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: But isn't Matt just quoting the Cloughs' title there? Beware of secondary sources, in other words - they don't corroborate where they are drawn from. A citation of 'The Morpeth Rant' (new or old) from anyone but the Cloughs, with the Shields' title, from pre-1900 would be interesting - one from anywhere near as far back as 1770, when 'The Morpeth Rant' made its first virtual appearance, would be astonishing. John -- References 1. mailto:[2]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 2. http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants
Hello Matt Firstly, many thanks to you and other kind bods for letting me know the thing got through and to Wayne for explaining the problem. I have to stress it isn't me but rather the etymologists at the OED who are suggesting that rant in terms of dance music has a possible derivation from a 16th century dance. This does seem, perhaps, more plausible than other possibilities so far on offer. What I'm taken with is the idea of the gliding action - I've been to dances in Whittingham, Glanton, Low Barton, Bolton, Netherton, Wooler.and haven't seen the old dancers 'stomp' a rant. I'm wondering if the gliding courant was akin to that other celebrated gliding step the pas de bas (both in triple time). If so, a courrant danced to a slow Shields Hornpipe might have evolved into a rant by upping the tempo a tad. This would explain how Shield's Hornpipe became known as the Morpeth Rant and why the courrant had '... hath twise so much in a straine, as the English country daunce'. Who knows? I'm merely throwing my thoughts into the pot. This is, for me at least, a fascinating topic but one which my limited experience/knowledge does not equip me well for researching. Undoubtedly there will be unanswerable questions but people like your goodself might offer more accurate/likely ideas. Cheers Anthony --- On Tue, 12/7/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: Re: [NSP] Rants To: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com Cc: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 12 July, 2011, 20:19 Yes it got through but with some strange text added (EURYEN every so often). Interesting references Anthony. Do I take it you are identifying the Rant with the Courant(e)? Interesting how one can find diverging etymologies which converge strangely. Cheers Matt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Rants
Hello Folks Here's what the OED comes up with for 'rant': ...couE^ rant | carant, v. intr. To dance... 1. A kind of dance formerly in vogue, characterized by a running or gliding step (as distinguished from leaping). 2.Music. The tune used for accompanying this dance, or a tune of similar construction; a piece of music in triple time, regularly following the Allemande as a movement of the Suite. 1586 E. Hoby tr. M. Coignet Polit. Disc. Trueth xi. 39 The Voltes, courantes, and vyolent daunses proceede from furie. [1596 J. Davies Orchestra lxix. sig. B6^v, What shall I name those currant trauases That on a triple Dactyle foote doe run Close by the ground with slyding passages, Wherein that Dauncer greatest prayse hath won Which with best order can all orders shun: For euery where he wantonly must range, And turne, and wind, with vnexpected change.] 1597 T. Morley Plaine Easie Introd. Musicke 181 The volte rising and leaping, the courante trauising and runningaEURYENThe courant hath twise so much in a straine, as the English country daunce. 1676 G. Etherege Man of Mode. i. 64, I am fit for Nothing but low dancing now, a Corant, a BoreA, Or a MinnuA(c)t. a1701 C. Sedley tr. D. A. de Brueys J. Palaprat Grumblerii. xvii, in Wks. (1722) II. 185 L. You wou'd have a grave, serious Dance perhaps? G. Yes, a serious oneaEURYENL. Well, the Courante, the Bocane, the Sarabande. 1746 E. Haywood Female Spectator (1748) IV. 304 SheaEURYENswam round the room, as if leading up a courant. c1817 J. Hogg Tales Sketches V. 10 He dreamed of the reel, the jig,aEURYENand the corant. 1880 Prout in Grove Dict. Music I. 410 As a component of the suite, the Courante follows the Allemande, with which in its character it is strongly contrasted. This seems to tie in well with Vickers' 'The Cow's Courrant' Cheers Anthony PS This is the third time since 4 o clock yesterday that I've tried to send this. My computer tells me it has gone but members tell me nothing has appeared on the list. Could one or two please let me know if it gets through this time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
Hello John I think that's fairly close. It is possible to do rants steps to reels, polkas and even jigs but in the Northumbrian sense it is a subtle up-tempo near hornpipe that really does help you to lift your feet off the ground and move rhythmically around the floor for long periods of time (e.g. Eightsome Reel - up to 11 minutes) in that unique way. There are quite a few examples of people really lashing into it; Dorset 4 Hand, Royton Clog Morris etc. and these might reflect the more colourful definitions of the word recently offered but as I've indicated before this has nowt to do with the Northumbrian sense of the word. In fact 'rant' seems fairly common in the general tune sense. I remember my disappointment when I discovered The Aith Rant was a jig! In true traditional style, however, the word means something to Northumbrian dancers which others do not share/find alien. Listen to Willy Taylor playing his own 'reels' and you'll get a perfect sense of the way they go. His rants steps were smooth, economical, simply beautiful to watch and as far removed from dictionary definitions as it is possible to be. As aye Anthony --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Rants again To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 11 July, 2011, 13:05 Why has this rant thread gone so quiet all last week? What makes a tune sound like a rant, rather than a reel or hornpipe? If I take a (4 in a bar) hornpipe without triplets, speed it up a bit, but not as much as a reel, smooth out the dotting a bit, and emphasise the odd beats at the expense of the even ones, will I get a rant? How essential are those 3-crotchet cadences? Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description misses? John To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
On Mon, 11/7/11, cal...@aol.com cal...@aol.com wrote: All dancers really need is a strong down beat...Never really had a dancer say, I can't dance this dance to that tune. Hello Alec I think the point here is not what can be danced to such and such a tune but which style of tune best suits a certain dance. People in the area I'm talking talking about would usually attend at least two dances per week and these would often start at 10 at night and go on until 6 the next morning. This had two effects; 1) it made the dancers refine their style until it looked and felt wonderful but was economic with no wasted energy and 2) it made them acutely tuned in to which tunes really helped them dance all through the night. The example you gave a link to was typical of the 'earthy' English style that is so very different from the Northumbrian rant style I have in mind. When I said that rant steps could be done to jigs I should have added that they become more akin to pas be bas than rant. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] TOTM for July
Hello John Thank you very much for giving us those two tunes and taking on the rant rhythm which brings back so many memories of nights shared with the old guys. That particular set (done in reverse order) was a turning point for me in my piping career when I attempted to join in with Archie Bertram, John Armstrong of Carrick. Joe Hutton, Will Atkinson and Willy Taylor and, if memory serves, John and Kevin Doonan at Archie's house 35(?) years ago. The room was lifting, the tunes were pulsing and thanks to a mixture of surprise, excitement and inexperience with that style I floundered my way through them. Until then I hadn't a clue as to how the Hesleyside reel was played on home turf so to speak. I vowed then to get to grips with that way of playing 'reels' and to be quite honest it has taken me an awful lot longer than it seems to have taken you. Congratulations! Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Breaking a promise[off list]
Hello Francis If someone kicks you in the shins and you say ouch that hurt and on being informed of the the hurt the person then apologises for wearing boots is that an effective apology? Barry has now apologised for the act itself and as I said in my recent comments it is gratefully received and acknowledged. I have contacted Barry saying there is no need for anything further on his part. Yes, the word Rant has its own conotations that is why I thought it important to include a subtitle explaining that the article wasn't a rant in that way. At the end of all of this we are still left with the conundrum of a publication taking on the academic appellation of Journal and then resorting to magazine practices. I might well be the only person on this list with mainstream journal experience to raise an eyebrow over this and so I'm more than happy to end it here. Best wishes Anthony --- On Sun, 3/7/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Breaking a promise To: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com Cc: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 3 July, 2011, 12:28 Dear Anthony, I should probably keep out of this. However . . . So I've just re-read this from a few days ago: I am the vile editor of the NPS Journal who changed the title of Anthony's article without his consent and I have apologized to him privately and will publish a full apology in the next issue. A private apology, a public recantation of the reason for the apology and a promise of a specific published apology seems fairly gracious. What else can the Editor do? Life's too short (and today's too hot) so let's not get back to the old days of unmusical controversy on this list. By the way, I re-read your article with great interest and pleasure and am glad to repeat the link here: [1]http://www.robbpipes.com/AnyoneForARant As for the title, the word 'rant' has a specific meaning in traditional music known and properly understood mostly by a small number of the inhabitants at the Northern end of this island. However, the NPS Journal (and this Dartmouth list) circulates worldwide to readers of English who natively use this word in one sense only. My point in saying so is that there is always the likelihood of a humourous leak between the two meanings. You're right to object if you think this was done deliberately in a title change which you did not like. The Editor was right to apologise. But for a huge number of people, this word-association is going to happen anyway. For most people, I'd suggest that it doesn't seem absent from your chosen title. Best wishes, Francis Francis On 3 Jul 2011, at 09:04, Anthony Robb wrote: As I'm aware that many out there will not share my rather high tedium tolerance level I'd decided to let this one go but a Sunday morning chat over a cuppa with Heather has persuaded me to make a couple of points: 1) The apology Barry refers to was in relation to not sending me a proof and despite my explanation that what I found upsetting was the change in tenor of the piece as a result of the alteration of the title and the ditching of the subtitle no further apology was forthcoming. Now that it has it is gratefully acknowledged and received. The thing I found very puzzling was that the Magazine had changed into a Journal for that edition but the editor made an artistic decision as though it was still a magazine. 2) The article on Hannah and Jimmy did take some sorting out but I would like to point out that this was largely as a result of the editor retyping the whole piece and the inevitable slips which ensued. Perhaps some guidance for fitting in with 'the house style' might lessen the workload for contributor and editor in the future. Cheers Anthony --- On Fri, 1/7/11, [2]barr...@nspipes.co.uk [3]barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: From: [4]barr...@nspipes.co.uk [5]barr...@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Re: To: Dartmouth NPS [6]nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 1 July, 2011, 21:28 (Suspicious voice) Hullo, Anyone there? I've got my tin hat on. Any incoming fire? (Normal voice) Attempts at humour on the internet are dangerous and generally misunderstood. I am the vile editor of the NPS Journal who changed the title of Anthony's article without his consent and I have apologized to him privately and will publish a full apology in the next issue. Anthony presented two contributions to the Journal, the rant article coming earlier in the year well before any start had been made on compiling the issue and then later I
[NSP] Ouch!
Apologies! I deleted the wrong email address there! Come back Barry, all is forgiven! Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] More Rants
Hello Folks After this I promise to go away and play my pipes for a week and leave you all in peace but I thought these might be of interest to some: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX-wAEtK_hM They are three Willy Taylor Rants - a bit more gentle than the usual rant speed (93bpm compared to the more usual 97bpm). The Far Frae Hame set was more up tempo at about 103 bpm which is getting towards a normal reel tempo. Perhaps this is because the first two tunes are from over the border? Anthony -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX-wAEtK_hM To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune of the Month, July, Roxborough Castle
-- On Thu, 30/6/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: It's a lot easier to play Roxborough Castle in dotted rhythm, as is done here. I prefer it played absolutely straight, which is really very challenging. A commonly played tune which is rarely played well. I quite like this rendition here . . . seems to have been videoed during a casual session by a bystander. Hello Francis I think that might be an oversimpification. Stewart Hardy with his years of top notch tuition experience would say that all things (especially speed) being equal dotted rhythms are harder. What we have here is a reduction of speed from the typical rant speed of 96 bpm to a hornpipe at 76 bpm. As you say it is OK but even at that speed he loses his rhythm when it comes to the top As which should be dotted quavers but come out as quick flicks. My first realisation that rants were almost as dotted as hornpipes but 25% faster came at Archie Bertram's when they all played Roxburgh and Hesleyside with almost hornpipe lilt but at a speed which left me floundering. It wasn't the normal straight reel speed of 106 bpm which isn't easy but for me certainly a bit easier that the rant rhythm at 96 bpm. I wondering if other players on the list find the rant speed rhythm a challenge? As for other comments I think you are spot on. Warmest best Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[no subject]
--- On Thu, 30/6/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: Hello Anthony, I don't think we disagree. At Stuart Hardy's musical altitude, I'm sure you're right. That's a level I can only admire but never approach. On a more basic level, playing the tune with a dotted rhythm will get you through in a far less exposed manner than playing straight, which would seem to be an ability to acquire before refining the playing to a more regionally idiomatic expertise. Hello Francis I'm still not sure I can agree completely. I've taught lots now myself (more or less regularly since 1976 and mostly beginners/youngsters) - probably in the region of 3500 pupil-hours and found that (hornpipes aside - which are slowish anyway) people get get away with jigs and reels played steady and straight but as soon as we try and dot/lilt them they fall away after a bar or two.This is especially true of (even) slowish jigs. I used to take the approach you outline; get them playing evenly and steadily and then put the regional (some would say the all important) accent in afterwards but getting people to feel a good lilt and use it consistently after having spent months mastering the straight version has proved very difficult indeed. In recent years I've tried to get the lilt in from the off so that even if fingers aren't responding the brain would be taking something in and it seems to work better. Of course the old guys would never hear the straight version in the first place and they have the steadiest pace and control I've ever heard. Scottish and Irish bands were popular in Northumberland but when the old guys swiped their tunes they used their own accent to play them. Sadly that distinctive accent is all too rare these days and it would be great to see more pipers from this area taking it on. The problem is how best to achieve it - which ever way we tackle it results are a long time coming. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Forbearance please
--- On Wed, 22/6/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: OK Anthony, I won't discuss it, but how good to hear Mr Preston's Hornpipe, it suits the NSP very well IMO. Hello Matt Many thanks for putting us right on the name of the 2nd tune. I'll tell the lasses and make sure we get it right in future. The wonders of the oral tradition! (OK, the name was sent to me via text but you know what I mean!) As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Forbearance please
Here is a link to a video clip (kindly supplied by Pete Ashby) of Alice Emily's controversial playing. It was taken when the band played in support of The Chantry Museum. Certain members may wish to delete this message at this point. The clip is mainly for the benefit of those who couldn't download the previous offering. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxh4GyR7XhA Hoping that no further discussion will ensue! Anthony -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxh4GyR7XhA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Ending tunes traditionally
Hello Richard I have to bow to Matt's much greater academic knowledge on this one but I still offer a lesser mortal's thoughts: The old guys I played with were dance driven and would invariably resolve tunes in the manner you describe. As far as my own preference is concerned I find certain tunes cry out for resolution (Lads of Alnwick for example) whilst I like others 'left in the air' (such as The Keelman Ower Land, Sir John Fenwick's the Flower Amang Them All). On singing tunes through in my head to check this I think there might be a pattern emerging. Perhaps tunes ending in fast passages need resolution but slower ones sound quite grittily scrumptious with a long E, for example, against GD drones. Again this is a personal feeling. After all that has been said about a living/evolving tradition I would not be comfortable giving a definitive answer but hope this helps a bit. As my nana would often say, just please your Bessie! Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Trad.nsp vs Dartmouth
Hello Rick I have great difficulty with your implication that Billy Pigg was not a 'proper' piper. Best wishes Anthony --- On Thu, 16/6/11, Rick Damon richard.a.damon@dartmouth.edu wrote: From: Rick Damon richard.a.damon@dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Trad.nsp vs Dartmouth To: John Dally dir...@gmail.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 16 June, 2011, 20:23 John, I try to stay out of these public debates, as it seems nothing good ever comes of them. But I really think it is unfair of you to categorize the argument as elitism because a couple of the best plpers are trying to make people understand how to play their instrument properly. I'll stop now before I anger too many friends! best wishes, Rick Damon On Jun 16, 2011, at 2:50 PM, John Dally wrote: I don't understand the rift between the proper pipers and the NPS. Don't they owe much of their fame to winning and judging competitions there? Doesn't the NPS publish and sell their books? I'm sorry to see fractious elitism born again. I thought we had gone beyond that a couple of years ago, finally. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 16, 2011, at 11:19 AM, Dave S [1]david...@pt.lu wrote: Hi Inky, -- glad you keep one eye open and nope I can't play proper - I don't have the wrapper of the tradition anywhere near - so I don't even bother with any form of competition, I just like great instruments. Dave S On 6/16/2011 8:08 PM, Inky- Adrian wrote: The annual smallpipe Bitch and Bite comps. will be in July. There will be 6 classes: absolute sloppyness and running-your-notes-in, just damn right easy-playing, almost there, nearly normal, can't play like that-it's too hard and tight as a cats arsehole. Tommy Breckons would be proud of me! -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3707 - Release Date: 06/16/11 Rick Damon [3]richard.a.damon@dartmouth.edu A computer without Windows is like a chocolate chip cookie without ketchup. -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=david...@pt.lu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=richard.a.damon@dartmouth.edu
[NSP] Pipes concerts etc.
Pauline Francis This looks wonderful! Here's another quote from the publicity: In Britain and Ireland, the tradition of playing bellows-blown bagpipes exists to this day, primarily in the traditional dance repertoire. [1]http://4pipers.wordpress.com/ That rings so true as far as north Northumberland is concerned. Pipers and fiddlers played together and shared the dance repertoire. They were far too far away (40 miles as the crow flies) from the Cloughs to be influenced by their style. An idea of the sort of difficulties of this ever happening can be found here: [2]www.robbpipes.com/WillWillyHighBleakhope It's such a pity that this part of the tradition (which was in some ways a truer and longer tradition than the Clough one) is not only ignored but actively denied in some quarters. Anthony -- References 1. http://4pipers.wordpress.com/ 2. http://www.robbpipes.com/WillWillyHighBleakhope To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Link to Will Willy
Sorry folks the link in my last email is broken. For anyone interested try this one. [1]www.robbpipes.com/WillWillyTalkHighBleakhope Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://www.robbpipes.com/WillWillyTalkHighBleakhope To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: new group
Are they rivalists as well as revivalists? --- On Mon, 23/5/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: new group To: Mark Stayton mark.stay...@pipersgathering.org Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 23 May, 2011, 21:42 On 23 May 2011, at 21:28, Mark Stayton wrote: Is this different than the Proper Northumbrian Pipers group? It's a slightly different chapel but we worship the same God. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Alice Burn - hear Emily play
-- On Sat, 21/5/11, inky-adrian inky-adr...@ntlworld.com wrote: This is not Northumberland Smallpipe-playing. The player choytes. The player slides into notes too. Staccato rules! Hello Adrian As I made clear to you offlist Alice's playing would not be to your taste but I did suggest it would give an idea of her fluency and musicality. I think it is rather sweeping to suggest there is only one way to play the pipes. Even Kennedy North, an avid supporter of Tom Clough (and the person who got him down to London to do those amazing recordings), said he preferred the very different style of the north Northumberland pipers. Clearly there have always been pipers that differed in approach from the Cloughs and it is inaccurate to suggest that theirs is the only/one true way. The beauty of Alice's playing for me is that she puts very tight staccato as well as choytes in the same piece. For some of us this gives depth and variety and adds more strings to her very expressive bow. Onward upward Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Alice Burn - hear Emily play
--- On Sat, 21/5/11, Zack Arbios zaxco...@aol.com wrote: Reminds me of the epic gulf between Seumas Macneill and Gordon Duncan. For Adrian, Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? (and I am a great admirer of what I can see of your playing) I enjoyed Emily's playing, although it far eclipses my ability for any forseeable future, but does provide one more goal to try for. Similarly catching up in any small way with your playing is a laudable goal. I've still got pdfs of Troy's Wedding in those 4 keys which I've zipped and sent to one list member. If any one else with an extended-range chanter would like copies for some interesting finger/key exercise please contact me offlist. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Alice's Chanter
On Fri, 20/5/11, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: I think the most likely explanation for the pipes would be that Alice was playing a chanter in concert F sharp. In nominal terms this would put her in F, with B flat the only unusual note. Honestly Christopher, it was a concert pitch G chanter - I'd reeded it and set it up for her. Watching her perform was strange because she didn't look as though she was playing at all - her fingers barely moved - her thumb was whizzing around doing 20 to the dozen. Karen (her mother) said often when she watched Alice play in Folkestra it was a similar thing. Certainly there was a big concert at The Sage Gateshead when Alice just looked as though she was smiling sweetly at the audience but the notes were pouring out nevertheless - from the sides and back. When I first started teaching her the school asked me to set specific technical exercises for her. The first one was Troy's Wedding in the (nominal) keys of D, C, G and A on her F chanter she was 11 years old at the time. When, after a couple of weeks, I said they're starting to come, she said what you mean Anthony is that they'll need at least another 20 hours work. When I replied yes or even more, she said fine and asked me to always give my comments to her straight! She's an amazing lass! Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Alice Burn
--- On Fri, 20/5/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: Lovely item, Anthony! Got any more? Only the two they did on the CD. Emily arrived back from the States on Saturday but she has already started working on material for an album with Alice which we hope to start recording this summer. In the meantime here's a totally contrast with Alice wearing her traditional hat and joining in impeccably with a Jimmy Little-led Taylor set which we did on the same night. [1]www.robbpipes.com/TichPearlShirley Again not everyone's cup of tea but she has the Taylor lilt well and truly nailed (she comes in 2nd time through Tich's). Anthony -- References 1. http://www.robbpipes.com/TichPearlShirley To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Various
Busy with real music so briefly: Tim Adrian: Tune in E maj on G chanter - the A part has about 78 notes and 62 of them are played on the right thumb so even electronic pipes don't help unless of course you cheat by electronically transposing. Barry: Tradition is wonderful but not if it insists on flat Bs etc! I thought at the time your fruit analogy was flawed (perishables compared with reasonably stable entities - not a good idea). Just as Reid pipes need tweaking to make them sweet to modern ears so too with the Cox - Bryan spacings. Dukes -paid hundreds of pounds in pipers wages to keep them in the popular domain this included a Tyneside Reid in the mid 19th century. I'm sure you will be able to discover more should you wish to delve. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Alice Burn
Hello folks There may be one or two apart from Adrian interested in the Alice person. Here she is playing with Emily Hoile at the Chantry Museum last night for the Windy Gyle Band Force 6 launch. This won't be to everyone's liking but gives a flavour of what she Emily get up to when left to their own devices. Aplogies for overloads, I started my Edirol running and then totally neglected the levels - Emily's harp shook the living daylights out of it! [1]http://www.robbpipes.com/AliceEmily Cheers Anthony P.S. it was a grand night - thank you Anne M. -- References 1. http://www.robbpipes.com/AliceEmily To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
On Tue, 17/5/11, inky-adrian inky-adr...@ntlworld.com wrote: Dear all, Who is this Allis thingy person? What are you on about, Anthony? E major..no! She can't do it-unless it's crap Adrian Hello Adrian I'm wonderting if you need to get out more? Alice Burn is a piper from Beal near Holy Island who has been studying music at St Mary's School Edinburgh and is gaining a good reputation among those lucky enough to hear her. She is at home both with the north Northumbrian tradition and modern approaches. For me she is rather special because her ego is in inverse cubic proportion to her talent. Believe me, neither she nor Catriona Macdonald do crap! Perhaps this might be a case of if the crap fits... Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
--- On Tue, 17/5/11, Dave Shaw d...@daveshaw.co.uk wrote: Hi Anthony Any idea what the E major reel was? It would be fun to give it a go. Dave Hello Dave I'll try and find out - I noticed the different tonality and only asked what key it was in. Once I got the answer I did not pursue my enquiry! I'll ask Alice tomorrow when I see her but tune names are not her strong point. Will email Catriona too. They played it in the Millennium Square in Durham as part of the Festival after Catriona ran the Hotshots group at the Youth Summer School. Knowing Catriona it would all be done by ear but she did express delight (and surprise) that a piper could manage it. Cheers Anthony From: Dave Shaw d...@daveshaw.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: even more on G and D To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu, Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com Date: Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, 11:34 Hi Anthony Any idea what the E major reel was? It would be fun to give it a go. Dave -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] E major tune
Hello Dave all Catriona has got back to me: The tune was called the Lounge Bar - written by Norwegian fiddler Annlaug Borsheim. I've asked her for the dots if poss. Something has clicked in my old brain and I'm thinking it might have been a jig - not a reel - but it fairly rocked along. Will keep you posted Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: E major tune
--- On Tue, 17/5/11, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: It is remarkable that an Emaj tune can be played successfully, 4 sharps away from the NSP's home key. It might be easier if the tune was on a gapped scale rather than full-blown E major, but it is hard to avoid the E-B interval, which isn't quite a 5th on NSP, but should be in this key. Playing on the keys rather than fingerholes slows us mortals down, too. I'd like to see the dots or abc of the tune, just to know what some people are managing nowadays. Hello John all Neil Tavernor kindly sent attachments of two versions in ABC from JC tune finder. Here's a link to ABC and sheetmusic formats: [1]http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8853/comments Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8853/comments 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: E major tune
Hello Rick That's probably a one for Catriona but I'll take a stab - a) It's the key it seems to have been written in b) It probably fits well on the fiddle and that's what the teacher played c) When people alter keys like that (eg. Calliope House from Emaj to Dmaj) something is lost and most importantly d) It sounded really lovely in that key. In this particular instance Alice was the only piper among a group of hotshot players - mostly fiddlers - so she just fitted in. The thing was she made such a good job of it Catriona dropped a group of about 10 down to just her and Alice to really punch it along as a middle tune in a great set. Anthony --- On Tue, 17/5/11, Rick Damon richard.a.damon@dartmouth.edu wrote: From: Rick Damon richard.a.damon@dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: E major tune To: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com Cc: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, 15:21 Anthony, can you explain why one would want to play such a tune in Emaj, when it fits nicely in Gmaj? Just wondering... On May 17, 2011, at 10:19 AM, Anthony Robb wrote: --- On Tue, 17/5/11, Gibbons, John [1]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: It is remarkable that an Emaj tune can be played successfully, 4 sharps away from the NSP's home key. It might be easier if the tune was on a gapped scale rather than full-blown E major, but it is hard to avoid the E-B interval, which isn't quite a 5th on NSP, but should be in this key. Playing on the keys rather than fingerholes slows us mortals down, too. I'd like to see the dots or abc of the tune, just to know what some people are managing nowadays. Hello John all Neil Tavernor kindly sent attachments of two versions in ABC from JC tune finder. Here's a link to ABC and sheetmusic formats: [1][2]http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8853/comments Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [4]http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8853/comments 2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Rick Damon [6]richard.a.damon@dartmouth.edu A computer without Windows is like a chocolate chip cookie without ketchup. -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 2. http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8853/comments 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8853/comments 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=richard.a.damon@dartmouth.edu
[NSP] Pipe makers
Ian Lawther wrote: I don't know if Mike Nelson is doing much making these days but he is in Cambridge and therefore local which could be an advantaqe. Hello all Mike has just taken delivery of enough bits of Sage pipes to make 6 sets for use at this years' Cambridge Festival and so is not likely to be able to help out in the near future. As it seems that a set of pipes is needed fairly quickly the best plan would be to try out as many sets as possible on approval. I'd go with how well the instrument plays rather than who made it. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Tuning/pitch
Francis wood wrote today: There's no reason to suppose that Robert and James Reid were careless about the consistency of pitch of their products. No doubt, they would be extremely surprised to know of the latitude in pitch (and indeed tuning) of many of today's pipes. Hello Francis, John and others with the stamina to keep reading this, The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. This degree of variation would make it impossible for these sets to span the gulf by pressure adjustment. Add to that the modern trend to play as near to F (A=440) as possible, with the resulting move away from the Reid pattern, and here we find ourselves. What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that with Ross/Nelson figures. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Pitch
Hello Folks * Yes, reeds make a huge difference. In general I use different reed patterns to converge pitch, that's why I have 4 different patterns just for 'F' chanters. * When I referred to a modern trend towards concert F (A=440) I did not for a millisecond mean to imply it was a universal trend. I was actually thinking of the Cut Dry Dolly album where we needed pipes in concert F to play with Alistair Anderson's concertina. This seemed to start something and this very evening I played for over 2 hours in F with Sylviane Bartowiak (concertina player and regular Cleveland Branch attender). It is modern in the sense that it wasn't something the Reids needed to consider. * I totally agree, this music is primarily social. That's why I have three different 'F' chanters to play comfortably in various situations. As Francis rightly points out this is not essential but it does make the music-making a joy rather than an acievement. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Chanter tuning
Christopher Birch wrote recently: I don't know exactly how flat A = 398 is but it can't be very far off F+, given that A = 392 would correspond to concert G. I wonder if Anthony would agree therefore that since lots of the notes are sharp, a good starting point would be to pull the reed out a fraction? C Hello Chris F+ is a variable thing but 90% of pipers seem to blend their pipes failry pleasantly at A=446. This is 8 Hz sharper than the chanter in question so I'd be disinclined to pull the reed out as a first step, especially as the chanter has a top B which is already 25 cents flat. I'd be interested to see the results of the cotton bud plunger trials before changing anything to do with the set up. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Tuning
Chris, John, Dru others In no particular order: * I set my Korg DA 30 to 446 using the calibration button and take it from there * I've got a chanter in for overhaul at the moment and have just seen the top B rise in pitch bt 20 cents by moving a plunger in from 10mm to 25mm * My solo pipes are happy playing at 458 which is well on the way to F# but when I do Em tunes I tune drones to a reasonably happy compromise between fingered B and bottom E. To keep in acceptable tune with these drones I find I am playing at 454. I keep it all as relaxed as possible and Bonny at Morn, Peter Bailey's Pig etc sound good to my ears. * When I retune my small D drone from the 5th its G drones postion to the tonic for D tunes I find that it needs sharpening a tad for tunes like Flowers of the Forest Top It Off but flattening a tad for softer tunes like Water of Tyne March of the King of Laoise. I don't necessarily advise this as a general principle but for me it works in these differing situations where the nature of the tune being played asks for a different amount of attack. Can I add that these adjustments/observations hold true well after my pipes are well settled down, have had a good 30min play in and reached that alive, buzzing and and up for anything stage beneath the fingers. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning
Hello Matt Yep, it's a 7 key chanter so no F nats. Also, it's a song and all of the singers I have backed (OK, there have only been 3 in 40 years!) prefer that key. And finally, as an instrumental it makes a loamishly lovely springboard to dive into P B's P. Cheers Anthony --- On Mon, 7/2/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 16:41 On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Anthony Robb [1][1]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: * My solo pipes are happy playing at 458 which is well on the way to F# but when I do Em tunes I tune drones to a reasonably happy compromise between fingered B and bottom E. To keep in acceptable tune with these drones I find I am playing at 454. I keep it all as relaxed as possible and Bonny at Morn, Peter Bailey's Pig etc sound good to my ears. Just curious - why play Bonny At Morn in Em? Would Am not fall more readily under the fingers, or do people generally not have an Fnat key? -- References 1. mailto:[2]anth...@robbpipes.com To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Chanter Tuning
From Chris Gregg: So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I thought it was just poor musicianship on my part! The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo instrument it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people get around it in recording sessions. Hello Chris This sounds to me as though your bottom G is a tad flat and that's why so many notes seem sharp. The other thing to say is that the chanter, in all likelihood, could be brought in tune with careful use of PVA glue (for sharp notes) and a scalpel fitted with an 11P blade (for flat notes). Before doing anything drastic, however, I would get to know your chanter's idiosyncrasies by removing the cotton wool plug, if there is one, from the bottom of the bore. Then I'd repeat your measurements (draw up a table) with a cotton bud inserted at set positions into the bore. I'd start off with the rounded tip in at 10mm then go up by 5mm increments to within 15mm of your bottom D (for a 7 key chanter) checking the tuning of each note as you go. Write down your results so the pattern can be seen at a glance. This will tell you how much effect the standing waves below each chanter note are affecting the pitch of each note. You might find one position will bring your chanter closer in tune with itself. If the cotton bud makes matters worse I'd insert a 20mm narrow cone of cotton wool (point first) into the chanter and see if that helps. If you do need to resort to scalpel glue I'd do this with the cotton wool cone to minimise standing waves interfering with your tuning. Let me know how you get on. With regards to recording sessions every group of pipers of pipers will have their own solution. As you say solo is fine as the piper can adjust where necessary. At the other end of the scale massed pipes are OK too because variations with 5 chanters or more tend to balance out. The trickiest we find is when 3 pipes are playing together. We found that recording the three chanters together without drones (live or recorded) works best as each of us listens out for what is happening with the other players and adjusts where necessary. Then drones are tuned to the chanters and added to the mix. This can mean up to 11.5 mins of constant drone without fingering the chanter at all which is surprisingly tiring on the fingers. It also means that chanters have to be played at a fairly consistent pitch and in with each other without any external reference point at all. But then as we can see from the recent posts external references are often a hindrance rather that a help in that situation. I hope some of this helps but please remember no theories whatsoever have been used as a basis for this advice just 40 years mucking about with some of the loveliest chanters around (Burleigh, Gruar, Hedworth, Nelson and Ross) and nowt but my own lugs as final arbiter. Good Luck Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
What a lovely thought, Philip. Thanks too for the warnings about possible pitfalls with the flake shellac method. By and large it works really well but there be problems if the soldering iron hasn't reached max temp. Anthony --- On Sat, 15/1/11, Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net wrote: From: Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net Subject: [NSP] Re: Shellac To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 15 January, 2011, 22:53 Incidently, you can also get 'Blonde' French Polish which might suit lighter woods. Under the ferrules, the colour of the polish is like the beautiful carvings up out of sight on a medieval cathedral - there because only God can see it. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
Hello Francis and Paul David B uses shellac on his silver mounted sets. As Paul's set is made from lignum it won't be a Burleigh set. So shellac seems to make sense in this case. When it comes to pad fixing Mike Nelson's method of using a small piece of flake shellac between pad and key in situ on the chanter and then gentle pressing a hot soldering iron on the key until the molten shellac reaches the edges of the key (easily observed) seems to work well. It also heat forms the pad to seal nicely with any minor irregularities in the chanter seating. Anthony --- On Sat, 15/1/11, Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shellac To: Paul Scott pscot...@gmail.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 15 January, 2011, 12:39 Paul, this largely depends on what the pipe-maker has used in the first place. Shellac would be an appropriate material for antique pipes, fulfilling two functions, both as an adhesive and a gap-filler. In this case the material would be solid shellac rather than in solution which will obviously change in volume through evaporation. Most NSPs on this planet are made by David Burleigh, his total being well in excess of 3000 sets. His preferred adhesive is UHU and that's what I would recommend if you own one of those. Francis On 15 Jan 2011, at 11:56, Paul Scott wrote: After having fixed a leaky tuning bead fitting I have to replace the brass ferrule and end stopper. Am I correct that shellac is the best solution? I know that there are plenty of other adhesives but would Shellac in alcohol be the stuff I am looking for? It us advertised as sanding sealer and says on the label that it is pure shellac and alcohol. They are lignum drones. Paul Scott To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Drone reeds
Thanks John. It's a gem! Sunny up here on the plateau. Francis I agree that this is a wonderful article and would like to add a couple of tips which are worth a try: 1. The gentlest way to close a reed (best with cane but can work for composite with care) is to roll it several times between your palms (this is a Colin Caisley/Clough tip I believe). It lets the gentle warmth and pressure of your hands have a go before resorting to more direct sources of heat. . 2. Pipers playing lots in pubs etc will often find grot accumulating between the tongue and body of composite reeds. I find that sliding a piece of thin strong paper (80g/sq metre max) very carefully up to the bridle then pressing on the toungue fairly firmly with the thumb of one hand whilst pulling the paper out with the other removes a noticeable amount of muck. I do this with a fresh area of paper until the paper comes out clean (usually 2 or 3 times) This tip came from Colin Ross and though less of a problem thanks to the smoking ban I find I need to do it every 6 months or so to keep my drone reeds in the Plateau of Stability - I really warm to that phrase. Please regard these these ideas as complementary therapy to John's excellent advice not a challenge to it. As aye Anthony On 12 Jan 2011, at 01:11, John Liestman wrote: Francis, you must have the earlier pre-plateau version! I have posted a pdf file version at [1]http://www.liestman.com/plateau.pdf for anyone to read that is so inclined. It is called Drone Reeds and the Plateau of Stability but it is truly the plateau of happiness if you can achieve it! Let me know if for some reason the link does not work and I will just email you (whoever you are . . . or is) a copy. Happy droning on the plateau! -- References 1. http://www.liestman.com/plateau.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Hello Mike Ian Corrigan recommends lemon oil as a pleasant, not too viscious cleaning liquid. It also, he reckons, gives wood a near invisible but protective coat. I haven't tried it but think it might be worth a try. The border pipes he made for Paul Martin are a visual and sonic delight so I'm very happy to take his word on this. Anthony --- On Fri, 14/1/11, Mike Dixon msdi...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Mike Dixon msdi...@btinternet.com Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... To: 'Northumbrian Small Pipes' nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 14 January, 2011, 11:49 The walking site I use tells me it denatured alcohol you put what we would call a meths stove Mike -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 14 January 2011 11:32 To: Victor Eskenazi Cc: Northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 13 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... rubbing or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the green IPA will degrease everything in sight, but is a bit drastic. Sold in the UK as a computer cleaning fluid. Good for degreasing springs and metal slots, but it'll take oil out of your wrappings too which you don't want. The one we have in the UK is a form of ethyl alcohol which has been adulterated so it can't be drunk. Could someone fluent in both forms of English translate methylated spirit into USA-speak, please? until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra virgin, olive oil. aaargh!No wonder. If you must use olive oil you want the cheapest, nastiest, hot presssed clear cheapy variety - the exact reverse of what you have used. Or use neatsfoot oil (from a saddlers, but make sure it's pure oil, not neatsfoot compound which has water in it). Or liquid paraffin/mineral oil / baby oil / baby gel (another terminology minefield) a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Oops
not too viscious .. neither too viscous or too viscous AARRHHGGG! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Hello Julia Bo Thanks for the warning. To be fair to Ian he's the sort of guy that doesn't laquer his pipes or use plastic mounts. He was recommending this purely for keeping natural wood and nickel silver clean and looking good. On the olive oil question those who used/use it (Clough, Caisley, Hillery, Nelson et al) were from the era when it was sold in 50ml bottles from the chemists to soften ear wax. It was/is probably the (almost) pure triester (between glycerol and oleic acid) and so being short on tasty bits (including minute bits of olive) it would have been reasonable to use. Mike Nelson still uses it and reckons if you look after your pipes/play them regularly it will be problem free. But, as Julia so rightly says, opinion is divided! Anyone remember a similar line in The Dosing of the Hoggs? A very kittle business. Anthony --- On Fri, 14/1/11, Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk wrote: From: Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... To: 'Northumbrian Small Pipes' nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 14 January, 2011, 14:33 On 14 Jan 2011, Bo Albrechtsen wrote: . Care should be taken to keep it off anything painted or lacquered and also it tends to break down many plastic-materials in a slow process that may not become noticed before tiny cracks begin to develop in the plastic long time after the lemon oil was used. So possibly deleterious to alternative ivory unless you want that antique cracked chanter foot look! Julia To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Drink To Me Only
Hello Julia John Drink To Me Only was also the first tune played on pipes by David Hillery, Ron Elliott, Gerry Murphy and me. Past down presumably from Tom C by Colin Caisley and chosen because it was already in our heads so to speak. We all worked at it by finding our way around the chanter by the singing/listening process mentioned recently by John G. Drones weren't involved so it clearly served an important second purpose. Cheers Anthony --- On Sun, 9/1/11, Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk wrote: From: Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Intonation To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu, gibbonssoi...@aol.com Date: Sunday, 9 January, 2011, 9:00 On 8 Jan 2011, [1]gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Long notes are good practice for this - I wonder if this is one reason Tom Clough liked playing hymn tunes? 'Oh God our Help in Ages Past' (aka St Anne, or 'The Goldfish') is a good one for this, dead slow. Tommy Breckons told me that Clough used Drink to me only for this type of thing, also for hearing the ghostly third on the drones. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gibbonssoi...@aol.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan Glackin)
Hello Matt I feel my comments need clarification, For the record, in general I think drones are fantastic, and used all 4 together: GDdg on the Whittingham/Glen Aln/Lads of Alnwick track on the WG album. I realize this is anachronistic for Lads aEUR| (also fairly tiring) but I think it works. Where drones can be destructive is when there is up to 70 cents difference between one player and the next and each tunes their own drones to their own chanter. The move away from the Reid dimensions by those makers aiming for concert pitched sets in F and the retention of that pattern by David Burleigh who has now provided 3000+ sets to the piping community means that this is often the case. If I have any control over the proceedings I tune one drone on each set of pipes to the mean (usually around F + 30) and then get each player to see if they can play acceptably against that drone if the answer is yes, I invite them to add a second drone if the answer is no, I ask them to switch the drone off. This means that in a gathering of pipers with a spread of pitch we usually get something pleasing to the ears. I would not dream of having a group of pipers playing/performing pipe tunes without drones but I would limit drone use in the interests of a pleasing drone hum (bees rather than angry wasps). And yes, this generally pleases others in the room too. (Thanks JG for making that point) Cheers Anthony --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan Glackin) To: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 7 January, 2011, 18:23 On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Gibbons, John [1][1]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: I'd agree completely about this record. Lovely! I must dig it out again. The precision is what marks it out from a lot of lesser performances, Irish or from wherever. I am so relieved that peace has broken out. I was especially worried after Anthony's Yes drones are wonderful and powerful but this power can also be, and all too often is, destructive. which reminded me that drones, like the nuclear force which binds everything together, might, if mishandled, lead to some Chernobyl-type musical meltdown scenario. And I love the Glackin Keenan record too, I haven't heard it for ages but it used to really fire me up, it has The Juice. A Guid New Year to all from fair Teviotdale -- References 1. mailto:[2]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan Glackin)
Matt Absolutely! Anthony --- On Sat, 8/1/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan Glackin) To: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 8 January, 2011, 11:10 On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Anthony Robb [1][1]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: I feel my comments need clarification, Where drones can be destructive is when there is up to 70 cents difference between one player and the next and each tunes their own drones to their own chanter. which sounds like my remark drones, like the nuclear force which binds everything together, might, if mishandled, lead to some Chernobyl-type musical meltdown scenario. We do not disagree. I suspect from other of your postings that we also converge on the dilemma that, as fiddlers, we know, on a near instinctive level, how to use our bow arm to play with whatever degree of lilt we wish, but as drone addicts, we experience the difficulty of transferring this to the pipes. Cheers Matt -- References 1. mailto:[2]anth...@robbpipes.com To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan Glackin)
Hello John That is the extreme but it happens fairly regularly and if people have signed up for a day's workshop (or longer) and have travelled some distance that's the way I deal with it. It has to be said that I do prefer the higher pitch sound personally and so have 3 F chanters myself to cater for various circumstances. This is not an option for many punters, hence my pragmatic (some would say draconian) approach. Cheers Anthony --- On Sat, 8/1/11, gibbonssoi...@aol.com gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com gibbonssoi...@aol.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan Glackin) To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 8 January, 2011, 14:03 A 70 cent divergence between one set of pipes and another is alarming! More than a third of a tone in old money. We are approaching the territory of that Irish flute player I mentioned. A tactful cull of the outliers might be a good idea - 'Your pipes are more suitable for solo playing' perhaps? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
John, please remember I was talking in the context of switching off drones to let the music shine forth, not silly things like playing a semitone above everyone else! Many general music sessions involve key changes from G to D to A. Are you saying that pipes should not be adding their crystalline punchiness to the mix just because they have to be droneless? Cheers Anthony --- On Thu, 6/1/11, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning To: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com, nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu, rob@milecastle27.co.uk rob@milecastle27.co.uk Date: Thursday, 6 January, 2011, 20:50 Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I would argue is the main purpose of traditional music. Pleasing everyone else in the room might be a priority for some, as well! I have heard too many so-called traditional musicians play to please themselves (and nobody else) not to add this health warning. You get them everywhere, but I recall the bloke who wound his flute up to E flat because that's the key Matt Molloy played in, though everyone else in the session was in D, and the one who played faster than everyone else because it was more exciting. I've been the latter one myself on occasion Think about how it sounds for the rest of the world, and you will play better. John From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb [[3]anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 06 January 2011 18:19 To: [4]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [5]rob@milecastle27.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning --- On Thu, 6/1/11, [6]rob@milecastle27.co.uk [7]rob@milecastle27.co.uk wrote: It's a case of trying and seeing what you like. The other way round this would be for the piper not to play drones ... but I wouldn't recommend that approach. cheers Rob Sorry to disagree, Rob, but occasionally switching the drones off to let other instruments provide the accompaniment can be lovely. I would also recommend learning and practising mainly on the chanter alone. It is the way I was taught and was the Colin Caisley way presumably passed on from Tom Clough. When Colin Caisley was chairman of the NPS in the 60s the Society hired out a 'goose' (bellows, bag and chanter only) for people to try out the pipes. Recently I came across an article, from the 70s I guess, written by Paddy Maloney who suggests uillean pipers should learn on a 'goose' for 3 to 4 years before thinking about getting drones. The premise being that the chanter is where the music is created and so needs to be learnt before adding drones or regulators. He also extols the beauty and effectiveness of playing parts of a piece on solo chanter only and then adding accompaniment be it drones or other instruments to lift the sound. On a slightly related topic, people have commented on how well in tune the 3 beginner pipers in Windy Gyle Band play on the CD and have suggested that some digital trickery might be involved. This is absolutely not the case. All three have learnt to play on chanter only and two of them are now (after 3 years) beginning to add drones occasionally. The drones can add excitement like nothing else to the pipes sound but they can also mask some of the music at times. So my message would be follow your ears, try all the options and go with what works for you. Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I would argue is the main purpose of traditional music. Cheers Anthony --- On Thu, 6/1/11, [8]rob@milecastle27.co.uk [9]rob@milecastle27.co.uk wrote: To get on or off this list see list information at [1][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 4. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rob@milecastle27.co.uk 6. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rob@milecastle27.co.uk 7. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rob@milecastle27.co.uk 8. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc
[NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
What you say is true, but still ignores Paddy Maloney's point of adding drones further into (even 'proper') pipes tunes for greater impact. We also have to remember that out of tune drones (and this unfortunately is the norm it seems to me) do little to enhance the music. This is true even in the most surprising quarters i.e. modern recordings where retakes could be done fairly easily to correct this. Yes drones are wonderful and powerful but this power can also be, and all too often is, destructive. Anthony --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning To: 'Anthony Robb' anth...@robbpipes.com, nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu, rob@milecastle27.co.uk rob@milecastle27.co.uk Date: Friday, 7 January, 2011, 10:17 Not at all - but pipes do sound better with drones, which are a fundamental part of the instrument, and also of what we might call 'proper' pipe music. There are some tunes where drones don't work, and some multi-instrument arrangements where they might get in the way, but - on pipe tunes at least - there is a price to pay if you shut them off. My warning was just to your more literal-minded readers out there, who might not think about the effect of their music on listeners. John -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 07 January 2011 09:48 To: [3]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [4]rob@milecastle27.co.uk; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning John, please remember I was talking in the context of switching off drones to let the music shine forth, not silly things like playing a semitone above everyone else! Many general music sessions involve key changes from G to D to A. Are you saying that pipes should not be adding their crystalline punchiness to the mix just because they have to be droneless? Cheers Anthony --- On Thu, 6/1/11, Gibbons, John [5]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John [6]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning To: Anthony Robb [7]anth...@robbpipes.com, [8]...@cs.dartmouth.edu [9]...@cs.dartmouth.edu, [10]rob@milecastle27.co.uk [11]rob@milecastle27.co.uk Date: Thursday, 6 January, 2011, 20:50 Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I would argue is the main purpose of traditional music. Pleasing everyone else in the room might be a priority for some, as well! I have heard too many so-called traditional musicians play to please themselves (and nobody else) not to add this health warning. You get them everywhere, but I recall the bloke who wound his flute up to E flat because that's the key Matt Molloy played in, though everyone else in the session was in D, and the one who played faster than everyone else because it was more exciting. I've been the latter one myself on occasion Think about how it sounds for the rest of the world, and you will play better. John From: [1][12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb [[3][14]anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 06 January 2011 18:19 To: [4][15]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [5][16]rob@milecastle27.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning --- On Thu, 6/1/11, [6][17]rob@milecastle27.co.uk [7][18]rob@milecastle27.co.uk wrote: It's a case of trying and seeing what you like. The other way round this would be for the piper not to play drones ... but I wouldn't recommend that approach. cheers Rob Sorry to disagree, Rob, but occasionally switching the drones off to let other instruments provide the accompaniment can be lovely. I would also recommend learning and practising mainly on the chanter alone. It is the way I was taught and was the Colin Caisley way presumably passed on from Tom Clough. When Colin Caisley was chairman of the NPS in the 60s the Society hired out a 'goose' (bellows, bag and chanter only) for people to try out the pipes. Recently I came across an article, from the 70s I guess, written by Paddy Maloney who suggests uillean pipers should learn on a 'goose' for 3 to 4 years before thinking about getting drones. The premise being that the chanter is where the music is created and so needs to be learnt before adding
[NSP] Re: Drone Tuning
Hello John In reverse order, switching off drones is certainly a cop out if the player is capable of tuning up properly in the first place otherwise it seems fairly sensible to keep them off (in public at least) until that stage is reached. I'm particularly thinking of the 'drones at all costs' approach regardless of whether players are capable of getting them in tune to start with and then holding them in tune for the duration of the piece. Re UP music after my last email I went to my album collection to see if other respected Uillean pipers had the same approach to Paddy M. and listened to one of my all time favourites, Doublin' by Keenan and Glackin. Paddy K. not only uses the drones off technique on slower tunes but also on reels such asThe Old Bush and the Boyne Hunt. The hornpipe set Plains of Boyle and Cronin's and the jig set My Darling Asleep and Garrett Barry's Jig are performed entirely without drones and the interplay between chanter and fiddle is sheer magic for me. The way WGB tackles the drones on during a piece is to start on a droneless set and then bring in a set with drones. As I realise not every one's cup of tea but it butters my parsnip and, of course, there has to be at least two of you. Anthony --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Drone Tuning To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 7 January, 2011, 12:11 Anthony, Certainly adding drones on the 2nd time through, works well on UP, especially on airs. Irish slow airs, being usually vocal music rather than pipe music, maybe don't require a drone so fundamentally. Musically this idea makes less sense on drone music though - double-tonic tunes etc. But with NSP, it is rare to have an on-off drone key, so it is hard for us to do in practice. As for drones being out of tune on recordings - as I said, it is the effect on the listener which matters. I can think of an otherwise excellent recording where the drones were badly out in places, so I know what you mean. But shutting them off is a cop-out, not a solution. John -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 07 January 2011 10:52 To: [3]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [4]rob@milecastle27.co.uk; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning What you say is true, but still ignores Paddy Maloney's point of adding drones further into (even 'proper') pipes tunes for greater impact. We also have to remember that out of tune drones (and this unfortunately is the norm it seems to me) do little to enhance the music. This is true even in the most surprising quarters i.e. modern recordings where retakes could be done fairly easily to correct this. Yes drones are wonderful and powerful but this power can also be, and all too often is, destructive. Anthony --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Gibbons, John [5]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John [6]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning To: 'Anthony Robb' [7]anth...@robbpipes.com, [8]...@cs.dartmouth.edu [9]...@cs.dartmouth.edu, [10]rob@milecastle27.co.uk [11]rob@milecastle27.co.uk Date: Friday, 7 January, 2011, 10:17 Not at all - but pipes do sound better with drones, which are a fundamental part of the instrument, and also of what we might call 'proper' pipe music. There are some tunes where drones don't work, and some multi-instrument arrangements where they might get in the way, but - on pipe tunes at least - there is a price to pay if you shut them off. My warning was just to your more literal-minded readers out there, who might not think about the effect of their music on listeners. John -Original Message- From: [1][12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 07 January 2011 09:48 To: [3][14]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [4][15]rob@milecastle27.co.uk; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning John, please remember I was talking in the context of switching off drones to let the music shine forth, not silly things like playing a semitone above everyone else! Many general music sessions involve key changes from G to D to A. Are you saying that pipes should not be adding their crystalline punchiness to the mix just because they have to be droneless? Cheers Anthony --- On Thu, 6/1/11, Gibbons, John [5][16]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John [6
[NSP] Doublin' (Keenan Glackin)
If any UP fans haven't heard this album or others want to know more, it was released 31 years ago but has been redone on CD and is available at Amazon: (for UK readers) [1]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doublin-Paddy-Glackin/dp/B4SCTK/ref=sr_1 _4?ie=UTF8qid=1294413475sr=8-4 This review just about sums it up: Take two stunning musicians at the height of their powers, let them play a heap of the best tunes ever and this is what you get. Hell-for-leather playing, utterly precise, gives the cleanest example I know of how exciting Irish traditional music can be. It also my favourity version of Paddy Keenan playing the Bucks of Oranmore, which is heart stopping. Pure music - great for learning tunes from, or convincing doubters how good the music can be. Not my words but exactly my sentiments. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doublin-Paddy-Glackin/dp/B4SCTK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8qid=1294413475sr=8-4 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan Glackin)
And I love the Glackin Keenan record too, I haven't heard it for ages but it used to really fire me up, it has The Juice. (Matt) And at 8.99 GBP surely the best value music CD online this year!! Anthony PS John G is a sharp as a broken pisspot (as we say up/down here) and I enjoy our exchanges immensely. - --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com wrote: From: Matt Seattle theborderpi...@googlemail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan Glackin) To: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 7 January, 2011, 18:23 On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Gibbons, John [1][1]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: The precision is what marks it out from a lot of lesser performances, Irish or from wherever. I am so relieved that peace has broken out. I was especially worried after Anthony's Yes drones are wonderful and powerful but this power can also be, and all too often is, destructive. which reminded me that drones, like the nuclear force which binds everything together, might, if mishandled, lead to some Chernobyl-type musical meltdown scenario. And I love the Glackin Keenan record too, I haven't heard it for ages but it used to really fire me up, it has The Juice. A Guid New Year to all from fair Teviotdale -- References 1. mailto:[2]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
--- On Thu, 6/1/11, rob@milecastle27.co.uk rob@milecastle27.co.uk wrote: It's a case of trying and seeing what you like. The other way round this would be for the piper not to play drones ... but I wouldn't recommend that approach. cheers Rob Sorry to disagree, Rob, but occasionally switching the drones off to let other instruments provide the accompaniment can be lovely. I would also recommend learning and practising mainly on the chanter alone. It is the way I was taught and was the Colin Caisley way presumably passed on from Tom Clough. When Colin Caisley was chairman of the NPS in the 60s the Society hired out a 'goose' (bellows, bag and chanter only) for people to try out the pipes. Recently I came across an article, from the 70s I guess, written by Paddy Maloney who suggests uillean pipers should learn on a 'goose' for 3 to 4 years before thinking about getting drones. The premise being that the chanter is where the music is created and so needs to be learnt before adding drones or regulators. He also extols the beauty and effectiveness of playing parts of a piece on solo chanter only and then adding accompaniment be it drones or other instruments to lift the sound. On a slightly related topic, people have commented on how well in tune the 3 beginner pipers in Windy Gyle Band play on the CD and have suggested that some digital trickery might be involved. This is absolutely not the case. All three have learnt to play on chanter only and two of them are now (after 3 years) beginning to add drones occasionally. The drones can add excitement like nothing else to the pipes sound but they can also mask some of the music at times. So my message would be follow your ears, try all the options and go with what works for you. Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I would argue is the main purpose of traditional music. Cheers Anthony --- On Thu, 6/1/11, rob@milecastle27.co.uk rob@milecastle27.co.uk wrote: To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Technique (etc)
Chris, 1) Viols: apologies (silly, subjective choice of words) 2) Nasty synthetic reverb: you have good ears, I agree 3) Jacky Layton: excellent tune but it might be a big ask to get it in your head quickly John, Yes, it takes ages and some bars need more ages than others. In my doldrums days I was asked to play The Shipley Set with Alistair Anderson at The Chantry Museum. We had a number of rehearsals (me playing largely by ear aEUR the dots were hand written (I'm being kind) on 6 sheets of manuscript pasted on a large piece of cardboard aEUR a challenge even to a seasoned dots reader as not all parts were named or in the correct order). One particular bar in the Rant refused to flow. I remember Alistair's words vividly, Right we'll play this bar till we drop. I counted the first 84 times through, lost count and after another minute or so looked pleadingly at Alistair, he replied Kidda, this is what we call work and we carried on for another 20 or so times through the bar. An eye-opener to put it mildly! Re choice, it depends what your main interest is. Choose a tune you like that you have on tap, listen to it until you can sing it in your head and then you're ready to start and work on it. Miss Forbes' Farewell to Banff could be a good one as you already have it on disc and the dots have been published I think by NPS. If any one is interested in more formal methods I can send them the exercises that I give to my Caedmon class members. Not every one's cup of tea but there are two sheets, one for the keyless chanter which gives some preparation for Peacock tunes as well as general fingering, the other concentrates on key-work and should help with tunes like the Barrington. I hasten to add these are nothing special but they are ready to go and might help a bit. The other approach to help with technique is to use a good easy-to-understand-the-pattern tune like Banjo Breakdown. This is excellent finger exercise and accessible enough to get beyond the dots quickly. It went down well at Killington this year and again I can send the dots if anyone wants them. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: technique etcetera
Helen, Good choice for a starter. The beauty with that tune is it can be tried: a) as a very free air, b) steady waltz, c) faster Circle Waltz, to keep interest up. Cheers Anthony --- On Wed, 22/12/10, Helen Capes helen.ca...@paradise.net.nz wrote: From: Helen Capes helen.ca...@paradise.net.nz Subject: [NSP] Re: technique etcetera To: John Dally dir...@gmail.com, NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 22 December, 2010, 7:50 Quote from Anthony Robb: May I suggest picking one tune that really speaks to us but isn't yet inside us (this includes brain, heart and fingers) and devote half our practice time each week to that single tune for 1-6 months (depending on time allocated to practice and complexity of tune). Which do you suggest? The first tune I ever did this with was Crooked Bawbee, as suggested by Bill Hume. It worked well for me, I didn't get bored with it. Helen To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] The Crooked Bawbee
One thing I would like to mention w.r.t. this tune is watch out for the Scotchy snaps in bars 29, 30 31. The one in bar 28 is nice but the rest over egg the pudding for me and could be near disastrous if you were doing the tune in waltz style! Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Anthony Robb
Yesterday John Gibbons wrote: Is 'the NSP don't move Anthony as much as the fiddle does', a sentence about the NSP or about Anthony? He has now explained that this is his own paraphrase based on something I wrote about one particular tune played by two top rank players on the two best instruments in the world. That's not much evidence on which to base an accurate conclusion so here are some bits of information to set things in context. 1) Some time ago I sold a fiddle made in 1749 in Prague by Eberle (authenticated by a large auction house in London) to fund my ivory G pipes. I got 650 GBP for that instrument. These fiddles last year were selling for between 40,000 and 70,000 GBP. Do I regret selling it - not one bit. Pipes are my greatest love and always will be. 2) Loving something most in the world and being aware of its strengths and weaknesses is to me a perfectly tenable position. 3) I have always been moved by music and it affects me often at a physical level. Not just bringing me to tears when it is beautiful but also hurting when it's not right. A while ago I was playing at a pub session where the jigs were being pushed along very forcibly and it caused physical discomfort. As we jostled along through the tunes it was like receiving tiny shocks (like a PP3 on the tongue). I am delighted to say no pipes were involved in this unpleasant experience. 4) I'm not 'back' in the piping fold as John implies. I never really left it. What has happened is that my fiddling experience has enriched my whole approach. I discovered among other things that fiddles too will tell you to go forth and multiply in the afternoon despite being nice as pie that same morning (but fiddles don't do it on such a regular basis). 5) I have found my reappraisal of pipes/piping and consequently working within the limitations has changed my approach since the Cut Dry days and is now hitting the mark in other pipers in a way my piping never did in those days. There has been a particulary embarrassing number of OTT compliments this year but it was the strength of praise which tells me I have taken the right route for me. Yes the pipes have the most wonderful sound, they can be played lyrically and musically and can really hit the spot. But, as Inky Adrian implies they need to be played 'properly' to achieve this. The trouble is this is much harder to do on pipes than any other traditional instrument. Perhaps we have reached the stage in piping history when need to say to ourselves let's stop bagging tunes like Munros. May I suggest picking one tune that really speaks to us but isn't yet inside us (this includes brain, heart and fingers) and devote half our practice time each week to that single tune for 1-6 months (depending on time allocated to practice and complexity of tune). Yes by all means develop repertoire in the other half but keep that one tune until it becomes your very own music. When it has reached this point choose another and what you have learnt in that first experience will pay dividends. I might have been a bit of a bright spark on the pipes in my early days but it took me more hours than I care to admit to turn Jamie Allan and Because He Was a Bonny Lad into something which is (more or less) music to my ears. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Slurs
From John Gibbons or the horrible slurred playing some people go in for I take it this is a very different thing to the slurs in Chris Ormston's Blackbird? Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday
Richard York wrote a very thoughtful posting ending: And yes, a really good player can make a poorer [insert instrument name here] sound better, and a music-less player is never going to make anything sound wonderful, but I do feel there are too many instruments of all sorts out there - whether harps, gurdies, squeeze boxes, fiddles or smallpipes, sold as a beginner's instrument to people who don't get the reward they deserve for lots of hard work, and may not even realise why. And that does perturb me on their behalf. Dunno if this helps at all. Regards, Richard. Thank you Richard for some calm common sense. I too often take the bait and get stuck in before giving real thought to my relpies. I did make sure that people knew on this occasion if they should be deleting at source so to speak but I give postings the benefit of the doubt, take them seriously and give full replies if I have time. I rose to the bait in a knee-jerk fashion re the Blackbird comparison from John Gibbons. I should have simply replied: don't be daft, I heard Greg's Blackbird 15 years before Chris Ormston's. Was I supposed to think don't be seduced by this music because: a) it is not being played on pipes and b) in 15 years time a Northumbrian piper might offer a (much less interesting) version of it? It would have saved us all, you especially, a huge chunk of time. Warmest best Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Doubleday Post Script and retraction
Thanks, Helen, for making me look more deeply into my words. Highest is, on deeper thought, a bad choice as pipes in the right hands (as Inky Adrian recently pointed out) hit the heart and brain every bit as surely as, say, Heifitz or indeed Choralation (Rowan Johnston's New Zealand choir). I'm not sure if it'll be any better, however, if I substitute fullest for highest. By which I mean hitting heart, brain and body (particulary the feet), simultaneously. This is far harder to pull off on the pipes than, say, the fiddle. It's what Peter Kennedy in the introduction to the Fiddler's Tune Book (OUP 1954) calls Drops and Raises a topic he devotes 8 paragraphs to. This is not done easily or by many and clearly not the genteel ladies and gentlemen who were probably the only people able to afford keyed pipes in the mid 18 th century. This takes us back to Doubleday. For me this letter to the Duke of Northumberland said 3 things: a) the old style pipes were brilliant, perfect for the job and really pwerful for their size (I know some who say similar re their Blackberry), b) the recent development in extra range attracted a fashion set who, more often than not, made a dog's dinner of the pieces they attempted, c) this bad playing was giving the pipes themselves a thoroughly underserved bad reputation. There is a fourth thing which was not in the extract posted but something that if not said openly was perhaps implicit in his letter, so this is my d) please do something about this parlous state of affairs. I add this because if the year is correct (1857) it was the same year the Duke appointed a second Duke's Piper, one James Reid of North Shields, to promote the pipes (presumably on Tyneside) and show people how they should be played. I would love to think that a consequence of this was that the genteel folk thought, 'pipes are not for us after all' and promptly sold them on for a fraction of their cost to the likes of the Cloughs and others who knew what to do with them. Pure speculation and merely the result of my own digestion of the piece so proper research could well prove me wrong. It would, nevertheless, be a lovely and fitting end to the tale. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Pipes Fiddles
Today John Gibbons wrote: Is 'the NSP don't move Anthony as much as the fiddle does', a sentence about the NSP or about Anthony? The answer has to be it's about both. My question is where did the sentence come from? Definitely not the email you are replying to, where I said, ... pipes in the right hands (as Inky Adrian recently pointed out) hit the heart and brain every bit as surely as, say, Heifitz or indeed Choralation (Rowan Johnston's New Zealand choir). I included the reference to Choralation because that choir had almost a whole audience moved to tears in Hexham Abbey on the 12th of this month. Not only was I saying the pipes had the power to move me as much as fiddles they even had enough power to move me as much as the human voice. This for me is the ultimate compliment to pipes. He goes on to say: As for Peter Kennedy's 'Drops and Raises' aren't they a survival of 18th C performance practice, which may well have been exactly how the genteel pipers of the early 19th C would have wanted to play, if they could? Well John, they might well be but I don't think so. Here's a little bit of what he says: This rhythm on the fiddle is created by the traditional tecnique, or as the country musicians call it, by the drops and raises. .. This rhythmical technique gives the pulsating effect the dancers call 'lilt'. But it also gives continuity. The shimering melodic line, fluctuating from weak to strong, flat to sharp, short notes to long, soft to loud, gives a continuous living environment for the pulsations. Continuity is also aided by the occasional use of drones. .. Inheriting the technique 'traditionally' makes for a standard of dance playing very difficult to acquire in any other way. Let me repeat that the tunes inn this book are only outlined in the notation and some wider experience is required than learning them from the printed page. Listening to good traditional players on gramophone records or on the radio, or better still, in the flesh, will inform the fiddler as no notation can do. Peter Kennedy That's a taste of it but enough to allow people to decide the answer to your question for themselves. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: WHW
Hello John It had exactly the same effect on me despite being besotted by the original Tom Clough 78 (which Ron Elliott bought by chance in Harrogate market in the late 60s). The postman delivered Billy's album as I was leaving for the lab at Aston. I put it on the record player and tears were forming by the end of track 2 (A side - The Lark in the Clear Air was the culprit). By the time B side track 3 (WHW) came on the tears were falling on the floor. I played the whole LP 3 times through back to back and went in to the lab in the afternoon. Re WHW, I listened to it again tonight with Colin's notes in front of me. Granted that my album has been played almost to death so I could be totally wrong here but the 5 note run (B C C# D D#) between the high G and the long E only seems to happen first time round. Unless my ears deceive me the equivalent runs as the tune progresses miss out the D#. Furthermore, the D# in the original run seems to me to be quite flat. Could it be that first time around he squeezes the D up a tad to get a D# effect? There is certainly enough gap after it where he could bring the pressure back down to get the E in tune. This would be in keeping with what Dick Hill (Billy's last formal pupil and player of the stunning Jack Armstrong 7 key chanter) told me. That Billy in fact played a 6 key chanter as the D# block had broken off. If indeed this is the case we can only further marvel at Billy's genius! Cheers Anthony --- On Sun, 19/12/10, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk wrote: From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: WHW To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 19 December, 2010, 15:47 I'd heard NSP before - including Billy's TV appearance. But that record was what really got the fire burning - Jack Armstrong's LP didn't quite do it for me. Also, as you say, the notes - almost a book - were excellent. Colin's transcription of The Wild Hills of Wannie really helped me to understand what was going on. My only regret now is not getting a set sooner. Good luck to any intrepid souls attempting the yomp on Boxing Day! It might be a chilly one! John To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday
John, I know what you mean. I also think that fiddle and pipes in duet are a Northumbrian version of 'Himmel un Aed'. If I may rewind the discussion and with particular reference to the Chris Ormston's Blackbird, I have to say it is a far superior track to anything I managed to offer on that album (or indeed in the 10 years either side of it - that was a dreadful period for me stuck in the music doldrums). The thing about the Blackbird was that in about 1985 Greg Smith recorded it for me (with his own variations) on my trusty old Dansette tape recorder. It was breathtaking. Visits over subsequent years produced more recordings of the same tune with yet more mesmerising oramentation/tune development. This piece with its rises and falls, embellishments and softness of song going into harshness of the alarm call had everything and had been firmly implanted on my brain for years before I heard Chris tackle it. When he did, he made a fine job of it but even in a master's hands the pipes failed to touch me as the fiddle version had. I did listen to that track again this morning and I can understand its appeal. I also had the misfortune to hear the embarrassingly unsuccessful attempt at trying to play two lovely Northumbrian Rants after it. So, it's apologies all round for the rubbish perpetrated in the name of piping by yours truly during the years '85-'05 As aye Anthony --- On Sat, 18/12/10, gibbonssoi...@aol.com gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com gibbonssoi...@aol.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Doubleday To: cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk, nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 18 December, 2010, 12:35 One thing I like about NSP is the way vibrato alters the colour, rather than the volume of a note. You can emphasise higher harmonics this way, and Billy Pigg seemed to use this a lot in The Lark in the Clear Air, for example. As for apples and potatoes - in Cologne they have 'Himmel un Aed' - Heaven and Earth, meaning apple kompott and mashed potatoes served together with eg, Bratwurst. There's a place for both - not necessarily far apart. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
Hello Tim Wonderful stuff! Discuss? I'll have to print off, re-read (probably several times) and inwardly digest it first. It has, however, already given me a warm glow which more than compensates for the sub -zero temperature outside. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Doubleday
Hello John This is what Doubleday said of the pipes (my underscores): Thus, this instrument is limited to a single octave; and this (little as it is) admits of all the airs, to which it is really suited, being executed by it's means ; with the additional improvement that it may be played perfectly in tune, whilst the tones it produces being all staccato and of a clear, ringing, pearly, and brilliant character, give the instrument a power which it's appearance by no means promises, and which is really superior when the diminutive size of its chanter or melody-pipe is considered. In truth, whilst every other description of bag-pipe is defective, wanting in distinctness, and more or less out of tune in the upper octave, the Northumbrian pipe, when played by a master, executes the airs for which it has been intended to perfection, and with a precision even in the most rapid movements very pleasing as well as surprising. This doesn't sound to me that he doesn't like the pipes. Yes, Chris Ormston plays the Blackbird beautifully but then having heard Greg Smith doing the same piece on the fiddle takes the air to a far higher, expressive and sublime level. The same is true of Andy May's wonderful Bonny Lass o' Bon Accord - great until you hear the same piece done by the likes of Kenny Wilson (Border Strathspey Reel Society) again is moving in the way pipes can't achieve. This is true of course in other spheres. Did any one out there have the nisfortune to pay a small fortune to hear James Galway playing The 4 Seasons? What a disappointment! Much of the pipes attractiveness lies in the tone. Pair it with fiddle tand it gives acombination of real gut tingling expressiveness; a winning combination. This is as true today as it was when Jamie Allan (we assume) played with Blind Jack o' Knaresborough in the 18th century. Doubleday would have heard the airs he is talking about played intially on instruments with dynamics. Hence his quite understandable disapproval on the sweet sounding (takes a genius to get anything like expression out of these) pipes playing the airs he was used to hearing on fiddle. Doubleday is saying what I have felt myself myself for some time. The pipes are a brilliant but not capable of the highest level of expressiveness. Their strength is their beauty of tone. Pair this with a fiddle say and the effect is awsome. This is as true today as it was in the 18th century when Jamie Allan (we assume) played with Blind Jack o' Knaresborough. Here's my challenge Find me any recording of any fiddle piece played by someone of Chris Ormston's talent i.e a top notch fiddle player and convince me it is not at a different level of musical expression compared to the same piece played on pipes. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Doubleday
Hello Richard Doubleday wrote: The Northumberland small-pipe is fitted up upon the plan of construction common to all bagpipes aEUR that is to say, aEUR it consists of a pipe with stops, by means of which the melody is played, and of three longer pipes sounding different musical intervals in such a way as to produce a rude and imperfect accompaniment to the melody. Taking this in the context of his whole argument he seems to be saying that common forms of bagpipe have chanters which aren't in tune over their range and therefore clash with the constant reference point of the drones. But he then goes on to say that the special quality of the smallpipes is that they can be played in tune and make a melodious sound. It's interesting how we arrive at two contrasting interpretations of his words. For me he delights in the sound of the small-pipes. On the point of expression I've been moved to tears as much by the pipes as the fiddle. The question is, can they match the fiddle when playing the big fiddle tunes? I have to say after 45 years involvement at all levels in this music I have yet to find a single example. I would dearly love to as the pipes are my heritage. I heard them as a school boy and loved them more than any other instrument in the world, but loving them more than any other instrument is one thing, convincing myself they are the most expressive instrument in the world is another. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Doubleday
Hello Colin and Richard I agree with much you say. I like the comparison with apples and potatoes. But that is exactly what Doubleday is saying: 'don't try and make chips with apples or apple crumble with potatoes'. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] 7 keys
John Dally recently wrote: I have a friend with a very nice seven key lignam vitae chanter that doesn't get played very much. I'll have to offer to help him keep in in working order. ;-) Many thanks! Hello John The chances are it will be a goodun, but just as (for me) Del Gesus have the edge over Strads it doesn't mean that there aren't a few exceptions! Good luck with it and I hope you find it a delight. The other point is, of course, that some totally dedicated players make a very good fist of playing 17 key sets fluently. First that comes to mind is Alice Burn - but then for 5 years the pipes were her first instrument at St Mary's Music School. She would travel 240 miles for her lessons (taking at least 6 hrs in total) and practice up to 5 hours a day. I remember offering gentle encouragement in the early days (she would be about 13) and she said, Anthony what you're saying is that I need to put in another twenty hours at least on that tune. That's Alice for you! My comments were directed more towards us ordinary mortals who do not have the luxury of that much time to spend or the young fingers to stand up to that level of use! Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: a key question for NSPipers
Hello John Like everything else it is a compromise and also depends on what you want to play. Having said that a point will be reached when increased physical effort makes it harder to play sensitively. The first 17 key chanter I ever tried was a Clough - Picknell one which had belonged to Tom himself. It seemed to have almost half a snooker ball as the end-stop and weigh about a kilogram. I can't remember now who it was that let me try it but when I said I couldn't understand how Tom played such technically demanding music on it, it was explained that he used a 7 key chanter for most of his playing. That experience as a player with only a couple of years under my belt put me off trying another 17 key chanter until I decided to buy one of my own and get stuck in several years later. Within a year I had sold it on and bought a fiddle. The lack of fluency inherent in the keying makes it an very unsatisfying proposition for me. There are a couple of top notch pipers out there who consistently eschew the bottom (thumb-thumb) D - F# jumps in Bill Charlton's fancy. Often a bottom E is substituted giving a thumb-little finger flow. This problem is magnified on a 17 key chanter. There are some great pieces out there which demand these keys but they are less than 2% of the traditional repertoire (if we take the NPS tunes books as our guide). The other factor for me is one of tone. For me each added key is rather like adding weight to a fiddle tailpiece. An old wooden tailpiece with 4 heavy string adjusters can still give a pleasing sound but replace it with a modern lightweight design with integral adjusters and there is a noticeable improvement in, for want of a better phrase, I call the zing factor. As I say 17 key chanters can still sound great but my 5 favourite sounding chanters are all 7 key. 2 of them are Reid, the others are by Jack Armstrong, Mike Nelson and Philip Gruar. These also made 17 key (well at least 16 key) chanters which I've heard often but for zingy ring the 7s have it every time. In a nutshell the tune possibilities expand with the number of keys but the tonal/musical possibilities are greater with fewer keys. We pays our money and takes our choice. My advice is stick with 13 and get another instrument for other tunes. There's a very good chance it will be the instrument for which the tune was made in the first place. I know this is a very personal (and very unpopular) opinion but I can assure people that I am not alone in this. Cheers Anthony John Dally dir...@gmail.com Subject: [NSP] a key question for NSPipers To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 14 December, 2010, 16:58 When do you qualify to really need more keys? When I ordered my set a number of years ago I was convinced that the desire for 17 keys was really too much, so I ordered a thirteen key set instead. Now I find myself reaching for the two missing Bb's and C#'s. Is there such a thing as key-envy? Is it presumptuous or perhaps a failure of imagination to want more keys? How many keys is enough? I hear tell of twenty five key chanters now. Is this obsession a pipemaker's nightmare? cheers, John To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: a key question for NSPipers
Hello John There might be a bit of confusion here. If you look at your high B key you'll see that it is just about at the very top of the chanter. Colin Ross managed to squeezee in a top C in place of a high Bb key but to get up to highC# would be impossible on the pipes as the hole would have to be cut into the reed staple itself. Ouch!! When a high C# comes in a tune I play middle C# and it's not too bad. Anthony --- On Tue, 14/12/10, John Dally dir...@gmail.com wrote: From: John Dally dir...@gmail.com Subject: [NSP] Re: a key question for NSPipers To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk, nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 14 December, 2010, 18:19 High and low C# are the ones I'm missing, as well as middle and low Bbs. The high C# might be better utilized as a high C. I'm probably exposing a gross ignorance by speculating which keys at the top of the chanter would be most useful. On 12/14/10, [1]barr...@nspipes.co.uk [2]barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: So, which 13 keys do you have? I can guess the two missing Bb's. On the other hand, missing two C#'s seems a little strange. Barry Quoting John Dally [3]dir...@gmail.com: When do you qualify to really need more keys? When I ordered my set a number of years ago I was convinced that the desire for 17 keys was really too much, so I ordered a thirteen key set instead. Now I find myself reaching for the two missing Bb's and C#'s. Is there such a thing as key-envy? Is it presumptuous or perhaps a failure of imagination to want more keys? How many keys is enough? I hear tell of twenty five key chanters now. Is this obsession a pipemaker's nightmare? cheers, John To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sent from my mobile device -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=barr...@nspipes.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=barr...@nspipes.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dir...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: TV
Thanks Rob, that looks just the job! Anthony --- On Sun, 12/12/10, Rob Say rob@milecastle27.co.uk wrote: From: Rob Say rob@milecastle27.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: TV To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 12 December, 2010, 9:20 Morning - I have heard of a thing called Expat Shield: [1]http://www.expatshield.com/ I've not used it myself - investigate as much you feel necessary. cheers Rob [2]http://www.milecastle27.co.uk/rob/ On 12/12/2010 02:41, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: Hi Anthony, When I tried to log on I got a curt message saying that the show wasn't available in my area. Has anyone any ideas on how we benighted folk in North America can watch this program? Richard Anthony wrote: He's the link for the programme on iPlayer if anyone missed it but is interested to view it. [1][3]http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wmy5q/Come_Clog_Danc ing_Trea sures_of_English_Folk_Dance/ 1. [4]http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wmy5q/Come_Clog_Dancing_Trea sures_of_English_Folk_Dance/ To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.expatshield.com/ 2. http://www.milecastle27.co.uk/rob/ 3. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wmy5q/Come_Clog_Dancing_Trea 4. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wmy5q/Come_Clog_Dancing_Treasures_of_English_Folk_Dance/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Clogging
Here's a link to a snippet of tonight's programme on clogging. [1]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11930757 Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11930757 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] TV
On 11/12/10 Richard York wrote: And a truly smashing hour it was! Cheered up our evening no end, it did. Stuff like this really is what we need now, it was truly inspiring. Couldn't agree more, Richard. He's the link for the programme on iPlayer if anyone missed it but is interested to view it. [1]http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wmy5q/Come_Clog_Dancing_Trea sures_of_English_Folk_Dance/ A number of cloggies really like the precision, clarity and articulation of the pipes to dance to. For me there is a real connection between the two. I'm sure if the pipes were easier to mic up in the open Paul would have used them instead of fiddle. Nevertheless, it was a really uplifting programme. Anthony -- References 1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00wmy5q/Come_Clog_Dancing_Treasures_of_English_Folk_Dance/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Many Thanks
Hello amazing people Apologies for tardy reply (a Newcastle uni day - not helped by frantic 70mile detour to Alnwick to retrieve a one off spec teaching chanter left in the BB chest of drawers after Alnwick Gathering!) I've been overwhelmed by the time and trouble taken to help me with the website cacophony problem. I'll be contacting individuals off list to glean further advice and give personal thanks but in the meantime. A BIG THANK YOU to all involved. There is a pool (ocean more like!) of information out there which is uplifting to behold and so freely and generously shared. Warmest best Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: 'My Deary sits ower late up'
Thanks folks Another fascinating discussion. I first had this tune as a song from Johnny Handle in the late 60s and then sang it often to my own bairns. As 'deary' was no longer in popular use on Tyneside by then ( I never heard it from parents, grandparents or great grand parents) he changed if for laddy. Most recordings since then (Northumberland for Ever, Cut Dry Dolly, K. T. et al) have used laddy or laddie. I think the song might pre date the tune variations, it is sung without repeats - A B A B A B A. Hear are the words as I have them they really bring the tune to life for me (I've used the vernacular as it scans better): Cheers Anthony Me Laddy Sits Ower Late Up Refrain: Me laddy sits ower late up Me hinny sits ower late up Me deary sits ower late up Between the pint pot an' the cup 1. He addles three ha'pence a week I t's nowt but a farthin a day He sits with 'is pipe in 'is cheek An' fuddles 'is money away 2. Me laddy is never the near Me hinny is never the near An' when a shout laddy come yem He caals oot agin for more beer 3. Whe Johnny cum yem ti yer bairn Now Johnny cum yem ti yer bairn How Johnny cum yem ti yer bairn With a rye loaf under yer arm --- On Wed, 10/11/10, Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk wrote: From: Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: 'My Deary sits ower late up' To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 9:58 On 10 Nov 2010, Gibbons, John wrote: the reprint edition has a typo in the penultimate strain, the 1st bar beginning g/f/|egB egB... instead of g/f/|egd egB ... I agree. This looks like a raw typo, and I am fairly certain it was in no way an editorial decision of any sort. Looking at the abc file from which it was generated at the time gives no clue as to which part of this household was responsible, but thanks for finding it. Marked in for future reference. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Where hast thou been all the night?
Hello Colin It's not just the nasty tonal quality it is the lifeless, mechanical emptiness of the noise which rankles. This music gets its life and very existence from the human touch of individual phrasing and decoration. It is this more than anything which we need to appreciate the beauty behind the dots. We now have the technology to send this vital spark of the music around the globe. Wouldn't it be a great idea for musicians to use it? As aye Anthony --- On Fri, 5/11/10, Colin cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk wrote: From: Colin cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Where hast thou been all the night? To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 5 November, 2010, 23:44 Sound isn't a problem for me as (somehow) I have ABCNavigator set to play using something like a reedy violin ( I think it's set for harmonica) but I'm a little stuck on the tempo for this one (not that good reading the dots) and, when played, it raced away at a speed which I had no hope of matching on anything! Certainly not on the pipes or gurdy without losing a finger or two. I'm possibly used to seeing a Q value (?) in the header of abc to set the tempo. It opened at 100 but, at 30, it sounds a rather nice tune. Any suggestions as to the tempo (another well known tune that's at the same tempo would do as I really don't know that much about abc either) :-) Thanks, Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Anthony Robb [1]anth...@robbpipes.com To: Dartmouth NPS [2]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 7:07 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Where hast thou been all the night? To John Julia Matt and all This has been a wonderful interchange and highly enjoyable save in one respect. The horrible midi noise made as my computer plays the examples. I can't be the only one who would love to hear the points made on the instrument(s) the tune(s) was/were developed for. A recording via an inexpensive mic directly into the computer would be a vast improvement on the tinny piano I've been listening to. Could there be a vault where examples are stored not just for people on this list but other pipers too? I realise some immediacy would be lost but it would be a wonderful resource once the discussion was over. Cheers Anthony --- On Fri, 5/11/10, Julia Say [3]julia@nspipes.co.uk wrote: From: Julia Say [4]julia@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Where hast thou been all the night? To: NSP group [5]...@cs.dartmouth.edu, Gibbons, John [6]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Date: Friday, 5 November, 2010, 16:01 On 5 Nov 2010, Gibbons, John wrote: Crawhall's tags... are harmonically as well as melodically different from Reavely, Exactly - which is why I think there's two possible sets there. the illegibilities in Crawhall seem to be mostly his fault... Was he noting this down in haste, I wonder? There are similarities in parts of the Clough MSS, where the writing is obviously that of Tom (3), but not the considered and legible stuff of the best collection... I will happily contribute to the medal fund for a sight of Reavely! Copy, I think, is what we need (OK, so it's a wish list). It's easy to look at an MS and make an index, but with an anxious owner hovering one cannot spend enough time to even abc much. Matt's strains ... definitely don't require an open-ended chanter. OK, thanks for that. Thanks to a damaged right elbow, I'm not very fluent on anything at present. some work before I get home Working out how to rake in all those tuition fees?? grin Julia To get on or off this list see list information at [1][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=julia@nspipes.co.uk 4. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=julia@nspipes.co.uk 5. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Slowing down tunes
Hello Colin I seem to remember Bill Ochs at Killington this year demonstrating software which can slow down normal recordings whilst keeping pitch intact. Perhaps you could contact him: [1]b...@pennywhistle.com and spread the word if I'm right. Thoroughly agree about abc being useful too, it's certainly better than nowt! Cheers Anthony -- References 1. mailto:b...@pennywhistle.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Where hast thou been all the night?
To John Julia Matt and all This has been a wonderful interchange and highly enjoyable save in one respect. The horrible midi noise made as my computer plays the examples. I can't be the only one who would love to hear the points made on the instrument(s) the tune(s) was/were developed for. A recording via an inexpensive mic directly into the computer would be a vast improvement on the tinny piano I've been listening to. Could there be a vault where examples are stored not just for people on this list but other pipers too? I realise some immediacy would be lost but it would be a wonderful resource once the discussion was over. Cheers Anthony --- On Fri, 5/11/10, Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk wrote: From: Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Where hast thou been all the night? To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu, Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Date: Friday, 5 November, 2010, 16:01 On 5 Nov 2010, Gibbons, John wrote: Crawhall's tags... are harmonically as well as melodically different from Reavely, Exactly - which is why I think there's two possible sets there. the illegibilities in Crawhall seem to be mostly his fault... Was he noting this down in haste, I wonder? There are similarities in parts of the Clough MSS, where the writing is obviously that of Tom (3), but not the considered and legible stuff of the best collection... I will happily contribute to the medal fund for a sight of Reavely! Copy, I think, is what we need (OK, so it's a wish list). It's easy to look at an MS and make an index, but with an anxious owner hovering one cannot spend enough time to even abc much. Matt's strains ... definitely don't require an open-ended chanter. OK, thanks for that. Thanks to a damaged right elbow, I'm not very fluent on anything at present. some work before I get home Working out how to rake in all those tuition fees?? grin Julia To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Cymbal
On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
