[NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note
By nuances I mean more the phrasing and the length of notes, i.e. holding a note just that tiniest fraction longer or shorter than would be written. These, together with attack, are in my view among the most basic elements of style and illustrate how, in many ways, style is inseparable from technique. I'm mainly a string player and these things really boil down to how to use the bow. I'm sure everyone who has attempted to teach a string instrument will have come across the i'll worry about those details when I can play better attitude from otherwise intelligent pupils who fail to realise (or refuse to believe) that concerning yourself with such details is how you get to play better in the first place. With the brass and wind, the equivalent is how to use the tongue, lips and breath. On nsp it probably boils down simply to how short or long the notes are (and of course in 99.9% or more of cases, notes on nsp sound better separated - which is what staccatto means (it doesn't mean short)) and whether slides or gracenotes are used (I confess to being quite fond of the odd choyte here and there.) I just find that taking the played note and writing it down is like translating something from one language into another, and wondered if other people have had a similar struggle. As a professional translator, I can assure you that the correspondence between music and the notation that has developed for representing it visually on a more or less one-to-one basis is much closer than the correspondence between any two languages. Languages are, after all, not code forms of each other - which is one of the reasons why we translators still haven't been put out of a job by computers. I can attest to the struggle though. Oops, way off topic!!! As for the penguins, give it a go - it may be the elusive element you've been missing all along (though I prefer peacocks). chirs Hilary -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 November 2006 09:18 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: the vagaries of the written note The written notes identify a piece. By nuances i expect hilary means aspects of style (though in French les nuances means dynamics - loud and soft, crescendo-diminuendo etc.). Style - i.e. phrasing, articulation etc. - is tradition. It can be conveyed by a teacher and/or absorbed from careful listening. Classical music is as much a tradition as any other genre. The top young students have often acquired a solid and complete technique from their anonymous teachers before they go near a big name to study the finer points of interpretation. In Hilary's specific case, it would be interesting to see what she had written and to compare it with how she plays the same pieces. I don't think one can generalise about how to put a maximum of music into the notes on the page. The older the music, the fewer the markings - presumably because people weren't exposed to a wide variety of styles as they are today (transport, communications). The addition of markings reached an extreme with webern, who put dynamics over rests (go figure). The following delight may be new to some of you: http://www.well.com/user/bryan/waltz.html chirs -Original Message- From: Hilary de Vries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:41 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] the vagaries of the written note With the topic drifting into the area of written music, I'd like to ask to see if other people have had the same experience as me with regards to writing music down. Before starting to compose myself, I took written music pretty much as gospel (probably encouraged by learning Highland chanter where it all felt very spelt out). Then when I tried to write my tunes down, I discovered that it was far from an exact science. I felt like I was squeezing them into some kind of musical corset: the overall shape was okay, but somehow the nuances had been flattened out. The fact that some of my tunes don't have a regular time signature hasn't made the process any easier. I've sort of accepted the limitations of the written note, but not without a struggle, and the fight's not over yet. I wonder what other people's experiences have been, and if similar battles have been fought. Or if, unlike me, you've found ways to get your tune over without feeling compromised. If so, I'd love to know how! I look forward to your replies! Hilary -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ NOD32 1.1856 (20061106) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
[NSP] Re: tune
Given that the writer only wrote 7 bars every other line, do we take the rest of rhythm literally, as syncopated throughout, or a mistake? In other words, is it really dotted crotchet, crotchet, quaver, or the more common dotted crotchet, quaver, crotchet - ? Hm, I'd been wondering this myself. And aren't there a few dots missing? chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: reed making
Fascinating, he makes it look so easy. The other nsp stuff is also brillant, particularly the clough family. -Original Message- From: Stephen Douglass [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:20 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] reed making If anyone is interested I have posted a video on You Tube which is 'part one' of reed making by Colin Ross. I will post the remaining parts every couple of weeks. This is purely educational NOT a business venture, so I didn't think it was a problem to post this. The link to view is below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gYQ82P6GZE Cheers Steve Douglass To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: German word
My understanding, confirmed with a native German-speaking friend last night, is that Bordun is a musical process not connected to a specific instrument (like continuo basso) and when used with the pipes (Dudelsack) it refers to Brummpfeife/n, i.e. the drones. This may be historically true, but in practice in modern usage it means both. C Die Bordune können mit den mitgelieferten Stöpseln abgestellt werden. the drones (nominative) can be switched off with the stoppers supplied. Hümmelchen ... mit zwei Bordunen .. With two drones (dative after mit). From http://www.bagpipe.de/query.php?cp_tpl=maincp_sid=182565295b45 chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: German word - and strictly speaking off topic
According to German grammar, the 1. casus, Nominativ, undefined pluralis (any), is Bordune. 1. casus Nominativ defined pluralis (these) is Die Bordunen. Can you refer me to any authority you are quoting here? And what would the terminology be if you stuck to one language rather than a mixture of Latin, English and German/Scandinavian (nominativ)? Nominative plurals of *adjectives* not preceded by an article (indefinite (sic)) end in e while those preceded by the definite (sic) article (die = the) end in en. these is the demonstrative adjective in English, corresponding to the German diese). Bordun is not, however, an adjective. It's a noun, hence the above rule is irrelevant. Chirs Hartwig Den 24. apr. 2007 kl. 10.23 skrev [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hartvig Körner wrote: Theoretically, the plural form would be die Bordunen According to which theory? According to both Wildhagen and Harraps (the only German dictionaries I happen to have at hand), Brockhaus and bagpipe.de it's Bordune (except in the dative. All German plurals end in n in the dative.) at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordun we find Bordun defined as: 1) an organ stop, 2) the lowest pitched in a set of bells, and 3) einen während der gesamten Melodie oder signifikanter Teile eines Musikstücks ausgehaltenen Begleitklang gleicher Tonhöhe [An accompanying sound of constant pitch sustained throughout the entire melody or significant parts of a piece of music] (in other words, a drone) and last but not least: 4) umgangssprachlich auch die Bordunpfeifen und Bordunsaiten (siehe weiter unten). [colloquially also the drone pipes and drone strings (see below for further information)] So, if we want to be pedantic, Bordun refers to the droning phenomenon and the bit(s) of the instrument producing it is one Bordunpfeife or several Bordunpfeifen (the n here is the plural in all grammatical cases, not just the dative (German is complicated)). I suppose strictly speaking it's the same in English ; drone pipes produce the drone. So we call them drones for short. To further complicate matters, some nouns in German can, but need not, add an e in the dative singular - so we can find, at http:// www.mittelalter.de/shop/produktkatalog/ Sackpfeifen,Sackpfeifen_32_produktkatalog_liste.html , for example - mit 1 [einem] Bordune (dative after mit) [with one drone]. Very confusing, but correct. So, to sum up: It's one 'Bordun' (but can - but doesn't have to - be with, from, to etc. one 'Bordune') and more than one 'Bordune' (but *must* be with, from, to etc. more than one 'Bordunen'). And colloquially the word can be used to mean drone (hardware) No prizes for guessing what I've been doing for a living since 1974 ;-) HTH. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: German word
K=F6rner An example of a cybermangled dieresis. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: g set
continued use of the left thumb from one note to another (c# and d#) Does anyone know why the C# is usually next to the D on the right of the chanter, and the D# next to the E on the left? I know of one maker who reverses them, so you can play C#-D left pinky right thumb and D#-E right thumb left pinky. I'm surprised this arrangement is not more popular. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: g chanter
I was referring to the middle c# and d# on a 7 keyed chanter and g# 's would be needed too, to play in g on an f chanter. Oops, thought you meant the low ones. I must admit that I've got rather more keys than I need. The maker did warn me ... chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Plumbing the depths, and further
And of course Blow the wind southerly. Aaarrggh -Original Message- From: Anita Evans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:49 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Plumbing the depths, and further Chris Ormston wrote: Dear All, I recently received a card through the letterbox advertising Northumbria Pipes Plumbing Services. Do ye ken John pee'd? -- Anita To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Plumbing the depths, and further
My dearie sits ower late; what can the matter be? c -Original Message- From: Anita Evans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:49 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Plumbing the depths, and further Chris Ormston wrote: Dear All, I recently received a card through the letterbox advertising Northumbria Pipes Plumbing Services. Do ye ken John pee'd? -- Anita To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: BBC Feature and related puerility
The reference to the Rolling Stones reminds me of one of my favourite misprints: Brian Jones was always something of an enigma even to his closet friends Chirs -Original Message- From: Ormston, Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:48 AM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] BBC Feature Back to piping matters.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/tyne/content/articles/2008/03/17/colin_ros s_feature.shtml Chris The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to public disclosure under the NHS Code of Openness or the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the information is legally exempt, the confidentiality of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. Unless expressly stated otherwise, the information contained in this e-mail is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy, distribute, or take any action or reliance upon it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender. Any unauthorised disclosure of the information contained in this e-mail is strictly prohibited. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: (Top quality) NSP at auction
Ah sorry - my fault. Not really because: The question mark was intended for anyone interested .. If it had been intended for Colin Ross it would/should have been inside the brackets. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
It might have saved us from that Maxwell-Davis stuff grin Not to mention Mozart and the Beatles ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
Boyden of course is not the last word in research on the history of violin playing. I gather from other sources that not all old bows were shorter, even though such authorities as Jaap Schroeder continue to state that they were. Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest respect for Jaap as both a human being and a musician, but he is one of the many who cling to ideas that emerged in the early days of the early music revival - such as the idea that stringing was generally at a (much) lower tension. Any one interested could do worse than czech out what Ephraim Segerman has to say here: [1]http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/About.html and elsewhere. Particularly telling is the statement The historical information has been very useful to some, but most use more modern stringing because the traditions of the early-music movement developed before the research was done. (my emphasis) Mersenne recommended using a long bow (though doesn't specify how long), and I think Boyden himself quotes some authority as saying that short bows were for tavern musicians (prost!). Certainly, a number of my baroque bows - copied from early 18th century originals in the Ashmolean collection - are more or less the same length as modern bows. Maybe the detached style was the string players in turn adapting to the articulation of the keyboards. And of course, you can detach with a modern bow too. chirs -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [[2]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 2:38 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; BIRCH Christopher (DGT) Subject: Re: [NSP] The great choyte debate redux On 22 Aug 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I remember reading somewhere (possibly in Boyden's book on the history of violin playing,) From the same book, which I'm currently reading / ploughing through, I have bookmarked a small paragraph which remarks (of violinists in the C17), that the old bows (which were shorter) meant that notes were on the whole clearly articulated (approx. = detached, from the context) in comparison with C19 playing where the long legato bow stroke was regarded as desirable. I'm simplifying here, obviously. However it set me to wondering whether there were connections between the articulated style of the violinists / fiddlers of the period and the articulation of the closed chanter, developing about the same time (as far as we know). Food for thought, anyway. Julia -- References 1. http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/About.html 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The great choyte debate redux
Also being in the Folk genre doesn't mean 'anything goes'. Hear hear hear hear hear, and so on. This point cannot be emphasised enough. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: More choyting!
Imagine if Pavarotti had thrown in the odd yodel in Nessun Dorma, and you'll get the idea! grin Ah yes, but no one claims that Pavarotti's is the only way to sing - or even to sing Nessun Dorma. My personal pet hates are excessive and misplaced vibrato, conjectural intonation and pomposity. In other words, Pavarotti - not to mention most classical and opera singers. Now the Hilliard Ensemble and Ian Partridge are other matters entirely. (incidentally pavarotti has been used as an insult on the local rock scene here) Very big grin (even if it's true...) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: More choyting!
tries to get the e hole to sound in tune...) You'll be lucky ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: More choyting!
maybe we should have a society red nose for such players :) Can I put my name down now. Count me in To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds...
There were many Folk clubs during the 60's - 80's including a few excellent traditional clubs (I ran one - and played my pipes there Which one was that? I was quite active on the folk scene in Liverpool in the mid-60s but had only ever encountered nsp on record (played by colin ross accompanying louis killen on derwentwater farewell). Strange our crossths didn't path ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: It's not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me -- quite the opposite!
We were quite happy to get rid of him I reckon to this day he thinks he's a great musician and doesn't realise that he wasn't being used by the other beatles as comic relief (the perfect voice for a little help from my friends). Good drummer, though, and made a serious contribution there. Oops, way off topic. Colin's fault, I think ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds...
Ah, I left in 1968 and have not been back much since. Coach House and Jim Peden's were main venues. Only played guitar (and just started fiddle when I left) in those days, so sessions were not much of an option - I didn't want to be yet another annoying thrasher, even if I could get my head round the rhythms of slip jigs and dorrington lads ;-), which I confess in those less enlightened days I thought was called Byker Hill ... So it goes chirs. -Original Message- From: Ormston, Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 1:06 PM To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT); [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds... Me too! Used to go to the Liverpool Trad Club at the Cross Keys in the early 80s, and the Baltic Fleet, the Grapes on Matthew Street, and the shorter-lived Brook House Club, and made occasional forays to the Bothy in Southport. I mostly played in sessions though at the Cracke, the Nelson on the Dock Road, the Irish Centre and a pub somewhere behind the Philharmonic Hall, the name of which escapes me. Most memorable, though was a session on board the Irish Oak which was docked near the Nelson - had to give a backhander to the security man at the dock gates to get in, and nearly got arrested trying to leave again as we were mistaken for illegal immigrants! Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 27 August 2008 10:38 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds... There were many Folk clubs during the 60's - 80's including a few excellent traditional clubs (I ran one - and played my pipes there Which one was that? I was quite active on the folk scene in Liverpool in the mid-60s but had only ever encountered nsp on record (played by colin ross accompanying louis killen on derwentwater farewell). Strange our crossths didn't path ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to public disclosure under the NHS Code of Openness or the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the information is legally exempt, the confidentiality of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. Unless expressly stated otherwise, the information contained in this e-mail is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy, distribute, or take any action or reliance upon it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender. Any unauthorised disclosure of the information contained in this e-mail is strictly prohibited.
[NSP] Re: the cry of the curlew, the wind in the reeds...
Jim and Shirley were usually found at Gregson's Well Yep, that's the place. Tuesday (been there, sung there) Idem along with John? Kaneen. (his nickname was Yogi) Yup. Cross Keys? Yes, went there as well - the formidable Tony Wilson in charge (Bothy ) with his captain's hat. Idem. And Dave Boardman, who used to be my English teacher. Great days for folk. Indeed. Chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] chooning
Yes, Sheila's right. anyone who got tired of the tuning debate on previous occasions is invited to stop here ;-) Question: Is your absolute pitch in equal temperament. In other words, does a piano sound in tune - especially the thirds? I have nothing approaching absolute pitch but very acute relative pitch. A few of my friends with absolute pitch have told me that it can be more of a burden than a blessing, and I'm inclined to believe them - particularly as I'm regularly changing from A = 415 to 440 or thereabouts with my bigger viols and baroque violin/viola depending on who I'm playing with and where, and I tune my pardessus to something like very low French chamber pitch (Quantz) around 390 because a) it's more authentic and b) the top string doesn't break every other day. (up and down like the vicar's wife's knickers to quote a colleague) Sorry about that.. Seriously though.. In theory, at least according to some authorities, the nsp chanter is tuned in just intonation (pure intervals sound better against the drones) and of course it can only be perfect in one key. Even if it's ideally tuned for G major, you have to decide whether you want the E to make a pure fifth with the low A or a pure third with the C - you can't have both. And the B and A will be considerably flat and a bit sharp respectively relative to a piano or other equal temperament instrument (or tuning device). In practice, of course, slight tempering can be applied and pressure tweaked (oops, heresy aaarghh!!) to get things sounding subjectively more or less ok, even in different keys - including, arguably, at a pinch, E minor (which some authorities claim is impossible). I hasten to add that I'm not an authority. The above is just a synthesis of what I've gleaned from various sources. To flatten a note semipermanently you can apply a small crescent of white wood-glue (PVA) to the leading edge of the offending hole. Since the chanter is oiled (we hope) it is a very easy matter to remove any glue again using a sharp pointed object without damaging the chanter. Recommendations for chanter tuning can be found here (not strictly just intonation - the A, for example would be +4 if if were): http://www.machineconcepts.co.uk/smallpipes/tuning.htm Hope I haven't opened any cans of worms or trodden on any toes here. chirs -Original Message- From: Wright Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: More choyting! Thanks Sheila and Colin for your advice, I'll give it a go and see how it works out. I'll try playing some A minor stuff to see if the E sounds right as the fifth in that key then if not, I'll give the maker a go - if I get no answer from him, I'll try the wax. What a helpful lot you pipers are! (I won't say 'we pipers' just yet as scales and a few simple hornpipes probably don't qualify me!) Allan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please
Used occasionally it's not too intrusive. I think the hard line taken by Clough, Adrian and I is really an attempt to reign in some of the worst excesses of open technique. Nicely put, though I enjoy a good choyte now and then. This is probably heresy to some, but I think it's arguable that Clough's was only one possible way of playing and the one most approved of at the time. there may be more. There is a difference between bad and different isn't there? As between wrong and not to my taste or not in my tradition. Django Rheinhardt was a great guitarist but should we proscribe the use of all four fingers? Heifetz and Grappelly were both great but very different violinists and some people can even put up with Joe Venuti (true, he had technique). How's about - to stay within the folk or traditional ambit - the fiddling of, say, Willie Taylor versus say, Martin Hayes? Same instrument, very different way of playing, both valid. What about singing? Does Pavarotti or Tom Waits do it correctly and the other not? Frankly I can't bear to listen to either of them. Give me Harry Cox or Freddy Mercury any day. Er, and Emma Kirkby. They all do it right. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please
I'd go along with all of this. Thanks, Richard, for putting it so eloquently. c -Original Message- From: Richard York [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:57 AM To: NSP Mailing List Subject: [NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please Oh dear - that wasn't what I meant at all! Just an honest appeal for information which seems to be common knowledge to many, but obscure to me, and I gather, others too. Because I don't know who is truly Outside The Pale I might get the wrong idea, and start thinking wrong things about absolute heroes/heroines. I really didn't mean to muddy the water, but I would just be interested to know who is considered a good role model, and, yes, who is considered not so, by those who have a lot more knowledge of the nsp's than I do, so that at least I can make up my own mind. I don't promise to be orthodox, and I reserve the right to my own musical judgement, but it would be useful to know, and might save a lot of time, and perhaps money in buying CD's. I have to admit that when people come up to me at events where I'm working want to know about playing particular early instruments, I have been known to quietly suggest certain outlets which might be better treated with caution, just to save them wasting their money, but I'm not going to stand up shout about it. My off-list reference was to save anyone having to Name Names in public, which would be embarrassing. I hope this isn't offending anyone, or getting into more politics. Music doesn't deserve that. Richard. So a whispering campaign? Is this really a good idea? Francis On 28 Aug 2008, at 10:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One frustration in the choyte debate was the we-all-know-who-we're-talking-about bit - we don't all know, if we're not of the tribe yet. If anyone cares to let me know, on- or off-list, who is Kosher who isn't, it would be most helpful, and I'll listen with interest to the recordings. Include me in copy too pleez. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Not Choyting - advice please
Of course, the traditional style needs to be mastered first to acquire the skill to take it further otherwise it tends to be bad playing. Indeed. (am I the only person in the world that likes buttered peas and hates holey halfpenny?). :) For listening or playing? And of course you have to shell your peas before you can butter them. in effigy Hope springs eternal ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] de gustibus non est disputandum
- grace notes (or gracings), i.e. twiddly bits that are not necessary for articulation but are put in because the composer or player thinks they sound good. Choyting on the NSP would fall into the latter category. I'll drink to that! There might even be a few listeners who think they sound good too. Bad taste I suppose ;-) - as exhibited by, imho, the likes of Pavarotti and Kreisler, who I gather are quite popular in some circles. The right way to sing and play the violin, I believe. Hm chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2
Our pipes alone, among other bagpipes, have the capability of producing truly detached notes In other words, they can do what the others can't. However they can also do what the others can, so they are potentially richer. Why make them, complementarily, as restricted as the others? I think a useful analogy is provided by uilleann pipes, where you can choose to cut etc. or play closed style for musical reasons, not because of constraints. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: George Atkinson recordings
Has anyone had more luck than me? No. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Tonschönheit ist Nebensache
it's better to try to teach people how to think musically than to answer specific questions about what is correct or incorrect... Indeed. A friend of mine once told me about a concert during his schooldays when he was sitting next to a kid who was apparently the nephew or something of a dreadful warbling soprano. Said nephew commented: it may not sound very nice, but that's the right way to do it. Three tenors anyone? chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Fool, fearing to tread, aka Peacock marks
pegment sans appui I'm not familiar with the term. Is this what purists might call a dégringolement? c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: John's Miles Davis Quote
As for choyting etc, it's the gold standard to learn to play without it, then choose to include it later if you wish to. So we could have foregone the entire debate then? grin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mistakes in public perfomance, Miles Davis etc
Clarinet-like? What sort of reed was he using? Most I've heard sound more oboe-like, which imho is a Good Thing. chirs -Original Message- From: Francis Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 5:05 PM To: Ormston, Chris Cc: NSP Mailing List Subject: [NSP] Re: Mistakes in public perfomance, Miles Davis etc On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:46, Ormston, Chris wrote: Francis sent me an old clip from the Times, reviewing a Clough performance in London. I don't have it to hand, but the reviewer commented on Tom's absorption in his music, and his sense of phrasing - can you elighten us, Francis? Hi Chris and others, Here's the notice about the Tom Clough performance given as part of a concert of Northumbrian music in London. from The Times of 07.03.28. The comments are nice (if a little patronising) and very relevant to the present discussions. Francis (with thanks to Maureen Davison for typing the text) The one instrumental performance in this engaging programme, filled with too many good things for all to be noticed separately, was a complete novelty for a London audience, and the London audience was a complete novelty for the performer. Mr. Tom Clough is a member of a family who have been performers on small Northumbrian pipes for generations, and he played a number of tunes with the variations on them which belonged to his family tradition. The Northumbrian pipes, with their clarinet-like quality of tone, sound more civilized in the concert room than the more famous Scottish pipes. Mr. Clough, who's normal working day begins at 3am by cycling five miles to the mine at which he is employed, faced his audience composedly, seemed as completely absorbed in his music as Senor Casals, and his phrasing had something of the quiet mastery of Casals. He has a large repertory, learnt entirely without notes, (though we understand that he has learned enough of notation to be able to write out some of his tunes), and his playing was absorbingly interesting as it evidently was to himself. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Correct grade of oi l?
I use neatsfoot and have had no problems. c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 9:54 AM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Correct grade of oi l? Hi Being very new to piping I get a bit confused about the right type of oil for the pipes .Some say neatsfoot oil some say paraffin oil some say olive oil, I am sure someone recommends Castrol GTX ! Can someone enlighten me on the reasons for one type of oil over the other? Or is it just tradition? I have always used .. it must be the best, or is there some science behind the choices? Regards Graham Graham Wright Faculty of Health Medical Sciences University of Surrey Guildford Surrey GU2 7XH TEL:01483682613 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Oil and health
The top B was still dodgy 70+ years after the original recording!!! Not to mention the top A, particularly at 2.00 and 2.07. Great stuff though c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP and pop music
I believe Chris Ormston plays on a Peter Gabriel album, but I haven't chased it up yet. An NSP player is credited on Mike Oldfield's Ommadawn, but apparently didn't actually appear on the album because his reed broke and some UP player, er, played instead (information from Chris O). c -Original Message- From: Mike Sharp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:02 PM To: Steve Bliven Cc: NSP Mailing List Subject: [NSP] Re: NSP and pop music Hi Steve, when is doubt, ask wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nontraditional_bagpipe_usage Among other notable uses mentioned on wikipedia: * [1]Sting used Northumbrian smallpipes, played by [2]Kathryn Tickell, on his hit song Fields Of Gold, from his 1993 album [3]Ten Summoner's Tales --Mike Sharp Bagpipes Reeding fettling NSPs and SSPs __ From: Steve Bliven [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List - NSP nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 11:40:05 AM Subject: [NSP] NSP and pop music Greetings - Got a call today from the Museum of Fine Art in Boston where they are teaching a course on the use of traditional instruments in pop music. They were specifically looking for examples where bagpipes were used in widely recognized pop songs. I could recall some instances where Loud Highland Bagpipes and Uilleann pipes were involved but nothing off-hand for NSP (other than Ryofu and let's not go there again.). Appreciate any input related to NSP - and any other types while you're at it. Best wishes. Steve -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_%28musician%29 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Tickell 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Summoner%27s_Tales 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Ranting and raving
The start of the rant beat is the opposite of trochhee and more iambic with two extra strong beats following the iambic te-tum. i.e. te-tum,tum,tum. Err... Matt's illustration (Nuts and raisins) is definitely two trochees. Yes, confusing, isn't it? Long live conventional notation. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants and reels
I can't think of a single word that will do but no doubt some one will. Untunable? Unbareable? c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
Could he be left handed or is the print backwards, I wonder. In fact the whole thing is left-handed so either of the above explanations are possible. More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in Carbisdale Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has his right hand on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR. chirs N� ��讇߶��+-�祊�b��+��b�v���i��0�� j�f��ayۿ��?��^i٢���u�a�i
[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
Even more disorientating was playing with a German violinist who had had an accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play left-handed. A minor quibble, but do you mean ruined his *left* hand? I can imagine bowing with an injured right hand as long as the wrist, elbow and shoulder were still ok, but doing the job normally assigned to the left hand with an injured right sounds impossible. I know a left-handed cellist who tried to learn the right way round but found it much easier when she reversed everything. This suggests that, for some people at least, one way is more natural than the other at the neurological level. I also know a brilliant left-handed guitarist who plays right-handed (ditto violinist), so it's probably all down to the individual. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
I gather the unexplanation of the Goebel's paralysis was carpal tunnel syndrome. c -Original Message- From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:01 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers -Original Message- From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] Sent: 15 January 2009 11:51 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers Oops! Yes, I do mean that he ruined his **right** hand. DAMMIT! NO, I DON'T that...@#*$%#!! I mean he ruined his LEFT hand, the one he fingered the strings with. You can see how disorienting all this is! :-) Paul To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re written music
With regard to the Tom Anderson quote, Never try to learn a tune you don't already know, as posted by Christopher Birch, Just for the record, I was referring to a previous posting by Colin Ross, in which he wrote: It has already attracted criticism from one of our pipers who is 'deeply disappointed' that the CD is not with the book as originally planned and who thinks that it will do real damage to what is essentially an oral tradition. He quotes the late Tom Anderson of Shetland who 'rightly' said 'Never try to learn a tune you don't already know'. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Chanter hole spacings
Viola for sale - recently tuned. How did they know? g? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Northumbrian smallpipe teacher in Brussels, Belgium?
and it looks like Christopher Birch who is on this list may be closest to you in Luxemburg. Thanks for the plug, but I'm a dabbler more than a teacher ;-) I could impart the basics though. There's also David Singleton - also in Luxembourg - who helped me a great deal with his fettling skills in the early days. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: stiff fingers and aging
I was very strict with myself about using the tips of my fingers for NSP, having read the phrase little pistons to describe proper NSP technique. Similarly you often see correct violin technique described as playing on the tips, and the phrase little hammers is used. Ruggiero Ricci, to whom I referred in my previous posting, recommends playing on the pads. He also recommends supporting the instrument on the wrist in good old folk/gypsy fashion and extending back and forth from what looks to a conventional modern player like third or fourth position. He got the ideas from a certain Paganini. Someone wrote speed comes from rhythm but I think it's the other way around, although it's a chicken and the egg question. Often rhythm is sacrificed for speed. I wrote Speed depends on rhythmic accuracy. If you tend to stumble when trying to play something fast when practicing, stop trying and play it rhythmically at a speed you can manage. Of course there are those who play flurries of notes that are all correct and in the right order but with no rhythmic sense. In my view this doesn't count. You are admittedly less likely to come up against a stumbling point if you rush and slow down whenever you feel like, but such rhythmic variations are purely for reasons of technique or lack of it (and why string sections in amateur orchestras often sound like a swarm of bees). You need to be able to play metronomically precise rhythms before any (deliberate) departures can acquire the status of musical expression rather than just reflecting sloppy technique. I wish I had come to the above conclusions very much earlier in life. Then my technique and speed would be far better than they are in reality - but they are still improving slowly as I approach the dreaded seventh decade. Btw, experience tells me that practically all types of music from traditional to folk to country to classical to rock etc. have more in common than it might seem on the surface - especially when it comes to developing your chops. Rule 1: get a metronome. Rule 2: use it. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Canny Shepherd Laddies o' the Hills... back to the music
Wonderful! Which leads me to offer this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q28ikQaPFK4 OK, it's fiddle-orientated rather than either sheep or smallpipes, but don't you think there's scope here for a new category in piping contests? Or perhaps simply a nice variant on the advice to practise with a metronome. Love it! Why didn't I think of that? c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Re:
I don't think it fair to call any style of playing any instrument 'incorrect' simply because it does not adhere rigidly to tradition. Here we go again! FWIW: I a) value the tradition (and the baroque) and b) agree wholeheartedly with the above statement. I play various instruments in various styles. Why should NSP be the only instrument restricted to a single style? Kreisler any one? Or Stuff Smith? Or Andrew Manze? Didier Lockwood? Gatemouth? Grappelly? Itzhak Perlman? Willie Taylor? I wish I knew who was playing properly... chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Re:
Do you think math teachers are unfair for calling answers wrong? I'm sorry, but this is frankly silly. Proving things write or rongue is what maths is about. Something may be wrong when playing a given style music (like playing jazz as if it was classical and vice versa) but describing a style as wrong in itself can only be regarded as narrow-mindedness - can't it? c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley
I think this very eloquently says it all - about piping, about music in general, and about life as a whole. I hope my wife is doing rumbled thumps again for lunch. Gudden appetit. chirs -Original Message- From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:10 AM To: 'Rick Damon'; 'Dartmouth NPS'; Chris Ormston Subject: [NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley Come on Chris, you know fine well who is responsible a and so do the others on this list. Sounding off at bairns themselves certainly wonat bring about a process of reflection and correction. As for your comments re the 4^th year piping student, it should be made clear that the only main study piping student to have come through the Degree Course so far has just entered their 4^th year. I am their tutor and they certainly know where to put the beat on a jig. Not only that, they are aware that a bar of 6 quavers would be played in 5 different time values in the north Northumbrian Tradition. Students come on to the course from a wide variety of backgrounds and some are encouraged to take up a new second instrument such as the pipes as a minor part of their studies. You were obviously brought in to help with this process and Iam sure you taught them brilliantly so that by the end of the course they did know where the beat lay in a jig! The Sage Gateshead, like all huge organisations, is far from perfect but intemperate outbursts wonat persuade the people at the top to change things. I am quietly arguing the case to bring a more consistent approach to the piping classes so the for the first time in 4 years we can guarantee some continuity for Caedmon participants. As for enjoying mediocrity Iam afraid thatas exactly what I do. I love everyday attainable and sustainable things. I can only take stunning amazing things in small doses and this goes for music too. The sound of an everyday sort of player like Carolyn Dickson or Jimmy Little when I first moved to Alnwick filled me with warmth and an appreciation that there certainly was music beyond aI saw my Love Come Passing by Mea a still my favourite piece of all time but only a tiny part of what our tradition has to offer. When Joe and Hannah Hutton first came round for a music night I played that (or another Peacock tune) and Hannah just said very quietly, aI divvent [sic] like these pippy [sic] tunes you play Anthonya. I understood what she meant and took no offence. It is not a viable stance to insist that the only apropera way to play the pipes is the tight closed style of the Cloughs. A folk tradition, by definition, must be accessible to the vast majority of players and not the preserve of the extremely talented. I enjoy our music because at its roots it has a sharing communal quality to it that the virtuoso stuff doesnat have. I remember going to a Manitas de Plata concert in the 60s with a student who was learning classical guitar. The playing was exciting, truly mind-boggling but for me it palled after 20 minutes or so. The next day I asked him what he thought of it. He said he thought it was like aspitting on a sixpence at twenty yardsa; extremely clever and totally amazing but not very heart-warming or deeply refreshing. It is not mediocrity to see the aspitting on a sixpence at twenty yardsa aspect in some of the virtuoso material. To give a food analogy, Macdonaldas is appalling and Michelin Star places are beyond me. Just let me have good ordinary food a high quality mince and vegetables and decent bread etc. Iad be surprised to find Iam alone in enjoying these simple pleasures on a daily basis. As for the odd posh meal, I love them too but not as my staple diet a not sustainable for us ordinary folk! As aye Anthony --- On Tue, 14/4/09, Chris Ormston ch...@chrisormston.com wrote: From: Chris Ormston ch...@chrisormston.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley To: 'Anthony Robb' anth...@robbpipes.com, 'Rick Damon' rick.da...@dartmouth.edu, 'Dartmouth NPS' nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 12:18 AM Yes, the clip sounded poor and yes, the article itself was unfortunate but Jessica isn't responsible. Then who is responsible? And why doesn't the Sage promote proper piping? I was asked to provide some piping tuition for a 4th year piping student who didn't know where the beat should sit in a jig. Unacceptable for a degree course. The Sage is about Jobs for the Boys and it stinks! They pretend to be about participation, but ultimately it's all about producing middle-brow pap for the coach party market to promote the incumbents of senior positions there! I've already had a yellow card tonight from Wayne, for something posted from another with the same IP address. I'll go before the red card is
[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley
She mentioned the Kathryn Tickell connection at our first lesson just before Christmas 2008 and when I quizzed her further she admited she had had 1 lesson from her. Good to know that KT is not responsible either. It would not be the first time in this forum that the lady has been directly and indirectly knocked. IMHO the bottom line with KT is that she is building on the tradition (and magnificently) rather than either simply acting as its curator (at best) or falsifying it (at worst). Like it or dislike it, but don't dismiss it. The baroque trumpet versus jazz etc. argument is relevant here too. I bet there were traditionalists centuries back who were strongly opposed to falsifying the intrinsic nature of the pipes by closing the end of the chanter and adopting exclusively closed fingering! Hails of derisive laughter, Bruce! chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Style
If a person ignores this completely from the outset then the product may not be wrong but it is certainly misguided. Let pipers take the music in any direction they wish but to have any connection with Northumbrian piping as such they must spend time studying the starting point thoroughly before setting off on their journey. I wholeheartedly degree with this formulation. I think the problem is that people are using style and technique interchangeably. The instruments I know most about and have taught a bit are the bowed strings (mainly viola). In teaching I would stress various basic techniques (such as drawing a steady bow and observing the point of content, the pressure and the speed, for example) on-the-string staccato with the bow, off-the-string staccato, correct shifting (left thumb and forearm à la trombone - the usual modern correct classical technique) as well as correct glissando technique (use your left thumb as a reference point by the heel of the neck and slide the fingers up and down - technique advocated by Ruggiero Ricci q.v. and based on his exploration of Paganini, N.B. whose fingering was unconventional. Swarbrick also did it, but i think he only used first and third position) and a whole range of other aspects - irrespective of what kind of music they intended to play. I would also encourage pupils to play different styles of music irrespective of what they intended to concentrate on. Bach specialists should also study Paganini and folk fiddling, for example. Of course staccato technique is essential for gaining control of the NSP as an instrument but once you've got it I don't think it's a very musical idea to just go around demonstrating one's staccato technique like opera singers their brute power and vibrato. And of course, style and technique inevitably overlap. If people dont see the point in doing this then chosing to play an out and out traditional instrument seems a bit daft in the first place. This is also very true. On a personal note, I am a very humble musician when it comes to practical skills (mainly a mid-level hard-practicing semi-pro classical hack, but with experience in everything from traditional to progrock) but since I was an adult beginner (a long time ago) and am rather obsessive about music (the nearest thing I have to a religion!), I think I tend to reflect on and analyse all the various aspects to a possibly unusual (or excessive) degree. I also flatter myself by thinking that some of my conclusions may have a certain validity. So... Apologies to anyone to whom my assertiveness - born of enthusiam - may ever have come over as bumptiousness. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley
Not only Manitas da Plata!!! c -Original Message- From: Helen Capes [mailto:helen.ca...@paradise.net.nz] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:22 PM To: 'Dartmouth NPS' Subject: [NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley I went to that Manitas de Plata concert too! I think its a great example of a good theory Anthony. I totally agree. Cheers Helen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Style
I think you need to listen to more (good) opera singers, mate! Maybe. Who would you suggest? c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley
the clip sounded poor and yes, the article itself was unfortunate but Jessica isn't responsible. So... I finally got round to listening to it, and it was far far better than I had been led to expect. How were today's (and yesteryear's) big names playing when they were 14? Are there any recordings to compare? After all, she's only a poor kid with a bumptious mother (and an undeniable amount of talent) and consequently a potential for inherited bumptiousness and psychological problems in her future. It's time to cut her some slack. What she needs most at the moment is our understanding and support. Exactly! The article was diabolical, but any article I've ever read about a subject or event that I had any real knowledge of has invariably been paddling up the wrong spout with a birch tree. So we can hardly even blame the mother or KT for that. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Style
Hooray. At last, something I can agree with publicly. I'm trying to call it detached fingering (or tenuto for the technically minded), rather than staccato, but that's a minor detail. Right! And remember staccato does not mean short. It means separated. Detached/detaché on the violin just means separate bows (with no gap in the sound). And of course I meant off-the-string s p i c c a t o. So many conductors have the habit of saying staccato when spicc is really what they want that it's catching. And they also have a tendency to say legato when they mean broad detached (legato means slurring more than one note in a single bow stroke). chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: tyles
Good points, both Stephen and Paul. Interesting point about Tchaikovski: the stringing of the violin in his day would have been much closer to what is nowadays regarded as baroque (all gut except a simply wound g). Modern synthetic (e.g. obligato), steel (e.g. prim) or even sophisticatedly wound gut (e.g. eudoxa, oliv) do not remotely resemble the strings that would have been available in the 19th century. This is of course not the place to get into a discussion about modern or fake baroque (according to some, closer in fact to 19th century stringing) and real baroque. chirs -Original Message- From: STEPHEN DOUGLASS [mailto:us...@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:26 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: tyles Begin forwarded message: From: STEPHEN DOUGLASS us...@comcast.net Date: April 14, 2009 4:25:05 PM EDT To: Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Re:Styles Paul, In the 1926 recording of Elgar's Enigma by the Royal Albert Hall Orchestra ,conducted by the composer himself, there is audible sliding (portamento) on the strings. In Simon Rattles recording in 1993 with the City Of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra the portamento is gone(or negligible). Many critics favour this version. By the mid 1930's, after Elgar's death, orchestras were moving away from that style. It would be unusual now, to hear an orchestra play with the same amount of slide. That would suggest a change of style in the same, genre, context and repertoire? and also asks questions about sticking to composers intentions. There may be a return to the previous style, but at the time the progression would have been considered innovative. Steve Douglass On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:26 AM, Paul Gretton wrote: Chirs wrote: Why should NSP be the only instrument restricted to a single style? The should is not a matter of authoritarian compulsion or hidebound conservatism but of appropriateness. Unlike the violin, the NSP has until very recently been associated with a very specific repertoire, the core of which is bound up with the structure of the instrument -- a sort of chicken/egg situation. As I said in reply to David, the problem with wild do-your-own-thing innovation is that the innovative style takes over and the traditional style is then lost. Kreisler any one? Or Stuff Smith? Or Andrew Manze? Didier Lockwood? Gatemouth? Grappelly? Itzhak Perlman? Willie Taylor? I wish I knew who was playing properly... It's confusing to speak of style here. All those people play the violin but they play different ***repertoires*** without overlap between them (with a couple of exceptions). Those repertoires require a certain style bandwidth if they are to be true to the nature of the music. I doubt if Manze would tackle the Tchaikovsky concerto on his baroque violin and in baroque style. Perlman, however, would probalby tackle a Handel or Corelli sonata, with IMHO dire results that distort the nature of the music. Or -- since you're about to become an opera buff :-) -- I would prefer to hear Isolde sung by Flagstad or Nilsson rather than by Emma Kirkby! (and vice versa for Rameau or Lully) Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] Sent: 14 April 2009 10:51 To: davidthba...@googlemail.com; ch...@chrisormston.com Cc: rosspi...@aol.com; lisaridley6...@hotmail.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Re: I don't think it fair to call any style of playing any instrument 'incorrect' simply because it does not adhere rigidly to tradition. Here we go again! FWIW: I a) value the tradition (and the baroque) and b) agree wholeheartedly with the above statement. I play various instruments in various styles. Why should NSP be the only instrument restricted to a single style? Kreisler any one? Or Stuff Smith? Or Andrew Manze? Didier Lockwood? Gatemouth? Grappelly? Itzhak Perlman? Willie Taylor? I wish I knew who was playing properly... chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: Lisa Ridley etc.etc.
Hear hear! c -Original Message- From: pipe...@tiscali.co.uk [mailto:pipe...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:02 PM To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Lisa Ridley etc.etc. Dear All, As a Tiscali customer I have had no access to the forum for over a week so imagine my amazement to find 93 e-mails waiting and that the world of NSP has gone suddenly mad. The mails relating to youngsters and pushy parents reminds me of our years with daughters in the pony showing world. Now if you want precocious kids and pushy parents thats the place to be!!! Intimidation of judges , dirty tactics and harrasment were all part of the game.(For others) Reading the rest of the contributions saddend me more than anything. Fre debate is good but this has not been good. If we have a situation that experienced pipers feel that they can no longer freely contribute to the pages then surely we have all gone wrong somewhere. I fall very much into the struggling, mediocre group of players but I enjoy what I manage to play. I live along way from the North east so thef orum and its contributors largely provide me with encouragement and technical information, some laughs and some annoyance at times but nothing, until now, that has made me wonder is it worth bothering anymore. Style... Well yes it is vital to learn the correct basics, as in any instrument, but whenyou are some distance from a group this becomes difficult. I fear a situation where I may have to lock the door and draw the curtians when playing in case the style police find where I live and come a knocking!! When attending courses and classes the one thing that always impressed me was the friendlyness and the willingness to help that came from eveyone I have met. Has that now faded? Come on let`s get back to something we enjoy, cut the bitching and each play in our own way to the good of ourselves and anyone who whishes to listen to us. Isn`t it the time of year to go back to discussing what oil to use at least we didn`t upset anyone when we did. All the best Guy T. Address withheld for security reasons!! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security - Get 50% off Norton Security 2009 ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Not again!
Hear hear, welcome back and thanks for all the dots! Chirs (unashamed KT-worshipper - but aye, there's other equally fine ways of playing). -Original Message- From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:26 PM To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Not again! Hello again The number of people asking me to stay on the list has really touched me. I did leave but rejoined this morning as Iam convinced there is much still to be said; in no particular order: * It wasnat just Barry Sayas contribution that made me question my presence on the list. It came after some very unpleasant postings, which, for me, came as quite a shock. This list can be a source of genuine information and help to pipers everywhere but it will only succeed if opinions are sensitively voiced and readers take time to assimilate what has been said. * Surely it is contradictory to talk about aproper pipinga, amoving ona, apaths to perditiona and aconversiona and then claim rules are not being implied? * Why, when Kathryn Tickell has done more, single-handedly, to raise the profile of piping than the NPS has ever done, are some people on the list frightened to even mention her name? Could it be she doesnat follow the (non-existent) rules? Or perhaps it is her success? I have watched her inspire extremely talented bairns who might not have been switched on to Northumbrian piping if the some of the more vociferous elements on this list had been doing the teaching. Kathryn is one of the hardest working, talented and modest (yes modest!!) people I have ever worked with. * Last year I brought Chris Ormston in to teach some pipes lessons at The Sage Gateshead. His talent stood out but his single-minded approach was not what is required in an area of music that is meant to be fun and all-encompassing. I was hoping to carry on with my Northumbrian Band workshops. It would have been perfect for me if Chris had delivered what the people were paying for and been the popular choice to carry on with the pipes when Paul Knox had moved on. Caedmon participants are from all walks of life and pay good money for help in getting what they want from the pipes. Being told that the sounds that had attracted them to the pipes was not the way to do it wasnat exactly the best choice of teaching strategy. So now I am back doing the pipes lessons at TSG. Not my ideal outcome but it is why his ajobs for the boysa jibe was particularly nasty nonsense. * With regards to my teaching philosophy and standards, I invite any one of you to ask any of the participants of aThe Cool Breath Toura if they found my approach musical and challenging. We were aiming for the highest standard of musical enjoyment and there will soon be a recording available to see if this was achieved and to what extent. Perhaps Barry can recommend a similar project/recording of his own so that we can hear for ourselves just how far along this road he has travelled himself? * As for the question of gracing; perhaps it is precisely because such notes intrude and give some form of dynamics that I find them so musical and appealing. For heavenas sake, the pipes are limited enough to start with, please do not impose further restrictions on what they should or shouldnat do. If you want your music clean and unadulterated then Noteworthy or Sibelius might be the answer. As for Adrianas conversion, may I suggest that this is the greatest loss to Northumbrian piping since the death of Joe Hutton? * The description of conversions to the clean Clough style sound as inviting as joining some strict religious sect. This contrasts to what I was told by Bill Hedworth when I first asked for advice about playing the pipes back in 1969, aAnthony, we each have to find our own salvation when it comes to this instrumenta. OK, this is plenty to be going on with. It has always been my position that the strength of our music is its breadth of appeal. I am doing no more than offering a description of my own salvation and invite others to take it or leave it. Unless, of course, you want me to organise tours/concert groups etc. when youall have no choice but to take it, at least until I have left the room. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Not again!
Ah yes, I remember it well - even in the same city, whack! C I was the one who sang interminable unaccompanied ballads. My sister was the other one. I also almost got murdered by Barry Halpin for singing with God on our side at his club. Ah, madcap youth! c -Original Message- From: colin [mailto:cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:07 PM To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Not again! Anthony, Many of us older ones on the list should remember the folk revival of the 60's when every pub had a folk club of some sort. This discussion very much reminds me of the selectiveness between them. There was a huge difference between the clubs - some being pure traditional with no instruments of any sort allowed and others with electric guitars etc. There was always tension between them as to what constituted Folk. We decided to go with a come along and sing whatever you like and have a good time. We got everything from Bob Dylan to Copper Family. One of our best nights was when a certain Mr Anderson played concertina and pipes (I still have most of the reel-to-reel recording of that night) and the reception was fantastic - many never having heard anything but my poor attempts to play the pipes before that (this was late 70's early 80's, I think). We never did solve the problems between the clubs but did agree to differ whilst (a) accepting that different people had different viewpoints and (b) agreeing that neither was right and accepting that, if one visited a traditional club, one left the guitar at home and also the opposite - that Tom Paxton fans could sit through several dozen Elizabethan verses without passing out from lack of beer because they couldn't get up to go to the bar. The audience decided what they liked. Lets all agree to differ and enjoy a wonderful instrument without becoming too pedantic. We're musicians first and academics second, surely? Let's not argue over which end of the egg to open :) Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Anthony Robb anth...@robbpipes.com To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:25 AM Subject: [NSP] Not again! Hello again The number of people asking me to stay on the list has really touched me. I did leave but rejoined this morning as Iam convinced there is much still to be said; in no particular order: * It wasnat just Barry Sayas contribution that made me question my presence on the list. It came after some very unpleasant postings, which, for me, came as quite a shock. This list can be a source of genuine information and help to pipers everywhere but it will only succeed if opinions are sensitively voiced and readers take time to assimilate what has been said. * Surely it is contradictory to talk about aproper pipinga, amoving ona, apaths to perditiona and aconversiona and then claim rules are not being implied? * Why, when Kathryn Tickell has done more, single-handedly, to raise the profile of piping than the NPS has ever done, are some people on the list frightened to even mention her name? Could it be she doesnat follow the (non-existent) rules? Or perhaps it is her success? I have watched her inspire extremely talented bairns who might not have been switched on to Northumbrian piping if the some of the more vociferous elements on this list had been doing the teaching. Kathryn is one of the hardest working, talented and modest (yes modest!!) people I have ever worked with. * Last year I brought Chris Ormston in to teach some pipes lessons at The Sage Gateshead. His talent stood out but his single-minded approach was not what is required in an area of music that is meant to be fun and all-encompassing. I was hoping to carry on with my Northumbrian Band workshops. It would have been perfect for me if Chris had delivered what the people were paying for and been the popular choice to carry on with the pipes when Paul Knox had moved on. Caedmon participants are from all walks of life and pay good money for help in getting what they want from the pipes. Being told that the sounds that had attracted them to the pipes was not the way to do it wasnat exactly the best choice of teaching strategy. So now I am back doing the pipes lessons at TSG. Not my ideal outcome but it is why his ajobs for the boysa jibe was particularly nasty nonsense. * With regards to my teaching philosophy and standards, I invite any one of you to ask any of the participants of aThe Cool Breath Toura if they found my approach musical and challenging. We were aiming for the highest standard of musical enjoyment and there will soon be a recording available to see if this was achieved and to what
[NSP] Re: Kathryn Tickell - Pipes Teacher.
Thank you, Barry. I approached this message with trepidation fearing it might be a disclosure of the awful truth about one of people I most admire on this planet. Instead it was a long-overdue tribute to Kathryn's genius written by a person qualifed to judge. At last. Thank you again. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
The learner should note that the staccato style of playing should not be overdone. Excessive cutting of the notes though at times lending a meretricious brilliance to a performance, is not in accordance with good small-pipe style It is interesting that this was left out of the '74 reprint. Very interesting. It would seem that some authorities are more authoritative than others. Oink, oink. Chirs -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: nps
James Galway playing tin whistle used to be alarming, though the Chieftains taught him a better, more fluid, style subsequently. Only heard him doing so once and this was back in the early Cretaceous or thereabouts. Your description of the better style as more fluid suggests that he fell into the same trap as classical violinist when presented with a folk tune - they tend to play in a clipped martelé fashion (more suited to, say, Vivaldi or Mozart, their differences nothwithstanding) rather than letting it roll. This might be similar to the kind of overdone staccato that the unexpurgated Fenwick was warning against. The much maligned Kathryn Tickell is a model of fluidity (but can shell peas with the best of them when she so chooses). c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Fenwick
That passage describing and naming ornaments was clearly lifted from 'classical' tutors for other instruments. It does not discuss how these ornaments might be fingered, for example. Have you - has anyone - had Fenwick - ever heard a turned shake on the NSP? The description of staccato is redundant in the context of closed fingering, the technique recommended elsewhere in the book. It would be fun to see what source was being plagiarised here. So we don't always have to believe fallible Fenwick? As i've said before, a problem is the misuse of staccato to mean short. It doesn't. It means detached/separated, as all notes must be (except of course the components of a mordant or shake, which would sound silly if detached). It's interesting that Fenwick distinguishes (like some contemporary pipers) between simply separate (non-legato), short and very short. Oops, I said I wasn't going to get involved this time round. But I agree with Dave Shaw. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: What oil to use?
Praps some would prefer oil of vitriol. Just kidding. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:50 AM To: pipers list Subject: [NSP] What oil to use? Can anybody suggest a suitable oil to pour on these troubled waters? Ideally, it should be capable of spreading evenly and fairly as well as making the tone of everything seem much brighter. Should lubricate roughened areas. Capable of curing squeaks as well as growls, howls and other distressing noises. Must be totally non-imflammable. Non-oxidising would be nice too. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: what do pipemakers do on their day off?
Is this as dangerous as it looks? Tho in the present context it's probably safer than admitting to liking KT ;-) c -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Shaw Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 7:42 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] what do pipemakers do on their day off? I noticed the following on you tube, [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoA3_MHwzZc I'm dancing number four (with the long hair). A little take on the traditional in my lifestyle . Cheers, Dave Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles [2]www.daveshaw.co.uk -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoA3_MHwzZc 2. http://www.daveshaw.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: No kind of knowledge of the expressive power ....
It certainly did this time! c -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:06 AM To: phi...@gruar.clara.net Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: No kind of knowledge of the expressive power Maybe Dartmouth filtered the attachment. c -Original Message- From: Philip Gruar [mailto:phi...@gruar.clara.net] Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:59 AM To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) Subject: Re: [NSP] No kind of knowledge of the expressive power Chris, Please don't tempt us with promises of Burney scans which are not there! You seem to have inadvertently made public a possibly fascinating private exchange between you and Francis. The least you can do now is let at least some of us in on it! Philp - Original Message - From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu To: francis.w...@gmail.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 9:29 AM Subject: [NSP] No kind of knowledge of the expressive power Hello again Francis, Here's scan of the Burney I mentioned. I can see his arguments, mutatitis mutandis, as those of the hardline NSP traditionalists turned on their head. I wonder if you perceive the parallels too? I can bore you at great length on them should you wish ;-) Csírz Btw, thanks again for the links to the BBC progs. It would seem that KT was unusual in that she bothered to play in tune! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.44/2140 - Release Date: 05/28/09 18:09:00
[NSP] Re: Raindrops or ?
I've heard the story - probably apocryphal - that Billy wrote it when sheltering from the rain in a shed/barn with a leaky roof and that as the rain got heavier the drips got faster. There again, Billy always tended to get faster FWIW C -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Telfer Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:06 AM To: 'Dartmouth NPS' Subject: [NSP] Raindrops or ? Is my memory playing tricks again, or am I right in thinking that at a concert a few years ago a tune was announced to the audience as ''Raindrops'' but to me it sounded like Bill Charlton's Fancy? Bill To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: this list is safer now
I got quite a surprise last time I recorded myself playing - it was far too fast for my liking Related anecdote: Once while setting up for a gig, music playing in the background included a very fast and flashy version of Orange Blossom Special (not on the pipes!). When I asked who was playing, I was told you. Hmmm... The instant recognisability of the true master! ;-) czírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was: this list is safer now//speed
Interestingly (to me at least) classical musicians and critics tend to use preserving the dance character (of, say, Bach's partitas for solo violin) to mean not playing too slowly. My experience of playing for dancing (morris, scottish, rocknroll) tells me it should mean not playing too fast. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: How the brain reads
when I've had more practice I'll be able to read whole bars at a time. The ability to read (and hear in your mind's ear and feel in your fingers) in increasingly large chunks just comes with practice - providing you go about it in the right way to begin with. The extreme case is that of the conductor of a symphony orchestra, who is able to read - or at least keep track of - anything up to about 40 parts at once (anyone know the record figure? - I believe the closing pages of Britten's War Requiem, for example, have an astounding number of simultaneous threads). And these parts are written in a variety of clefs, and include transposing instruments. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: question about number of keys
don't let anyone talk you out of getting low C#. But if you do get one, I would recommend getting it on the opposite side of the chanter from the B and the D - it's hard to do a run over three consecutive keys! I know this is contrary to the normal practice of some highly respected makers (whom I have no wish to criticise), but I've never understood the rational of Csharp on the same side as D or dsharp on same side as E. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Transposing music
I reckon you'd be better of writing it out by hand. This is what Mozart or Tom Clough would have done. c -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of The Red Goblin Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 8:43 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Transposing music I am looking for a way to transpose some duet parts 8 snip without having to wrie it all out by hand. OK then, Chris, I'll take the bait ... First, re what you don't want, I'm not sure whether (by by hand) you mean direct mental transposition on paper or typing it up in something like ABC. And re what you do want, I'm assuming that's to have your PC (or whatever) do the donkey work. Either way, your primary task is to render the original parts in a note-based electronic form - essentially a choice between ABC MIDI (software capable of transposing either and typesetting the result in staff notation being readily available). To typify each in a nutshell, ABC has strong 'grass roots' support whilst MIDI is an industry stalwart but, as tools exist for converting from either to the other (see http://abcnotation.com/software.html), you're free to mix 'n' match to some extent. Exactly how you go about rendering it will depend on how you are able to present it to your computer for capture :- * If it's purely in your head, forget it (ESP interfaces are still the stuff of science fiction :) * If it's a popular tune, a search may turn up a tweakable ready-made file to save you starting from scratch (e.g. c/o http://abcnotation.com/search.html or www.mfiles.co.uk/) * If it's on paper, does anyone know if ONR has been invented yet ??? (where, similar to OCR, ONR = Optical Note Recognition) * If it's a digital audio file (mp3/ogg/wav etc), see the microphone option two points below where it may be used as an alternate source * Playing it on a MIDI instrument is well-established in music circles - merely requiring MIDI capture software * Playing it on a regular instrument into a microphone is another option but the recognition/conversion software (e.g. Digital Ear) needs to be pretty sophisticated and is thus accordingly expensive. Also note that, like OCR results, the less precise the source the more you'll have to manually correct the output - perhaps even to totally negating all automation benefits in extreme cases * Playing it on a virtual piano keyboard, c/o you PC keyboard, is yet another option frequently offered by the bigger music applications (e.g. Noteworthy Composer IIRC) * Typing it up in ABC is also pretty easy once you get the hang of it (being one of its primary design criteria) And my favourite ? ABC because it's such a straightforward, generally useful and modular way of maintaining a basic tune collection for the pipes. For input, using it routinely, typing up new material is no big deal and, for transposition, http://abcnotation.com/software.html lists 5 tools (but even that's not exhaustive). Steve Collins To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Re transposition
or at least what I thought was the easy option and eventually came round full circle and did them (and still do them) in long hand. Thank you, Michael, for this info. I've always got the impression that all this Midi, Abc, Sibelius stuff is probably more laborious than long hand. You've saved me time and expense! What was good enough for Beethoven and Tom Clough is good enough for me. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Transposing music
Yes. Just read it down one note without writing it out. You'll soon get used to it and acquire a valuable skill. Best suggestion yet! c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Re transposition
Ah yes, taking the plunge in the first place. Though, Michael Dillon said he has sucked them and seen. Maybe it's a personal temperament/aesthetic thing. Like fact that we're playing pipes and fiddles rather than synthesisers or riding choppers rather than Goldwings. Errr.sorry, could you speak up a bit? Beg pardon? Will this wind be so mighty To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: GUTS?
Indeed! -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Shaw Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 2:40 PM To: Dartmouth NPS; Anthony Robb Subject: [NSP] Re: GUTS? Among traditional musicians nothing is so noticeable as the absence of uniformity of style or system Captain Francis O'Niell, Irish Folk Music: A fascinating Hobby, 1910. Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles www.daveshaw.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune title spelling
Variation in interpretation is what music is all about so play the tune the way you want to and don't be brought down by the fundamentalists. Hear hear!!! CB
[NSP] Re: The Power of Positive Thinking
Whilst we're there, I'm certain that any French speakers will advise against a careless translation of 'pipe-making'. Same thing. I hadn't been aware of the French expression, but it's in Petit Robert. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Old Guy
Is that THE Neil Smith? Wa schon, schéi gréiss aus Lëtzebuerg! csirz -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Neil Smith Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 1:14 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Old Guy Lovely playing indeed. Any idea who's on piano? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: schei greiss
Modern (new research) concert instrumentalists, starting as children now learn their instrument by ear for the first few years, when they have learnt the instrument and some of its' possibilities, they are introduced to the dots and in so doing create a happy medium and a happy player. This is unfortunately not the approach adopted by the Luxembourg conservatoires (based on the French system), where kids and adults alike are obliged to do two years of solfège (music theory) before they can touch an instrument. An exception introduced around the mid 90s (too late for my older children but in time for the youngest) is for violin, where the kids can learn to read the dots in parallel to learning the instrument). This is what my older kids did too, but I had to send them to a private teacher for this to be possible. Solfège is a horribly abstract approach to music. My older kids could read music perfectly well before I transferred them from private teachers to the Conservatoire, but they still had difficulties with the compulsory solfège. Wat soll dat (= What the hell is all this blahblahblah about?). Bit off-topic I suppose. Maat et gudd mais net ze dacks! c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: axel greiss . And pronunciation tip
Akcherly it's gréiss, as in Gréiss Darling. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: schei greiss
Sorry, this should be shay grice and indeed Dave should have used an acute accent on the e in both words - schéi gréiss. It's Luxembourgish for - literally - beautiful greetings, corresponding to the German schöne Grüsse. Yes, the dots and strokes do matter for the correct pronunciation. Totally off-topic, I know, but I can explain for anyone interested that lëtzebuergesch is the language spoken in Luxembourg. French is used for administrative purposes and some (or parts) of the newspapers are in German. A lot of Burgers don't feel confident about writing the language, as it is not taught properly in the schools, so they tend to write in French or Germany - even if they would speak letzeboiesh (as it is pronounced) with their correspondents etc. Giving a luxembourger a writing implement is the most successful form of machine-translation to date. C PS It's not quite Grace as the r is uvular as in French and some varieties of Geordie and Irish English (e.g. as spoken by my ex-mother-in-law). Ceci dit, retournons à nos moutons. c -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Corkett Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:44 PM To: Matt Seattle; gibbonssoi...@aol.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss Dear Those concerned I hope at some stage, someone will explain to me what all this code breaking shy grice is about Alan Corkett -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]on Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 04 November 2009 11:24 To: gibbonssoi...@aol.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, with dotted and undotted quavers alternating. Do you mean 20/16, John? Any system of notation relies on a culture which knows how that particular music is played, just as any written language relies on people knowing how to pronounce it (greiss / grace etc.). The problems Anthony highlights are well known - use dots if you know how the music sounds, otherwise they are a hindrance. Ancedote, half-remembered: an arranger scored out a trumpet part for Miles Davis with a serious attempt at imitating what he understood of the nuanced rubato of Miles' phrasing - Miles said, I can't read this, man, write it straight, I'll phrase it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: schei greiss
Oops, deed mer leed nach eng kéier, it should have been shay grace not grice. Grease is not the word. c -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:57 PM To: a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk; theborderpi...@googlemail.com; gibbonssoi...@aol.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss Sorry, this should be shay grice and indeed Dave should have used an acute accent on the e in both words - schéi gréiss. It's Luxembourgish for - literally - beautiful greetings, corresponding to the German schöne Grüsse. Yes, the dots and strokes do matter for the correct pronunciation. Totally off-topic, I know, but I can explain for anyone interested that lëtzebuergesch is the language spoken in Luxembourg. French is used for administrative purposes and some (or parts) of the newspapers are in German. A lot of Burgers don't feel confident about writing the language, as it is not taught properly in the schools, so they tend to write in French or Germany - even if they would speak letzeboiesh (as it is pronounced) with their correspondents etc. Giving a luxembourger a writing implement is the most successful form of machine-translation to date. C PS It's not quite Grace as the r is uvular as in French and some varieties of Geordie and Irish English (e.g. as spoken by my ex-mother-in-law). Ceci dit, retournons à nos moutons. c -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Corkett Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:44 PM To: Matt Seattle; gibbonssoi...@aol.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss Dear Those concerned I hope at some stage, someone will explain to me what all this code breaking shy grice is about Alan Corkett -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]on Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 04 November 2009 11:24 To: gibbonssoi...@aol.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: schei greiss Notereader makes Hornpipes sound fairly good in 21/16, with dotted and undotted quavers alternating. Do you mean 20/16, John? Any system of notation relies on a culture which knows how that particular music is played, just as any written language relies on people knowing how to pronounce it (greiss / grace etc.). The problems Anthony highlights are well known - use dots if you know how the music sounds, otherwise they are a hindrance. Ancedote, half-remembered: an arranger scored out a trumpet part for Miles Davis with a serious attempt at imitating what he understood of the nuanced rubato of Miles' phrasing - Miles said, I can't read this, man, write it straight, I'll phrase it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Message to Chris Birch and Dave S
Hi Neil! Just phoned my good Luxembourgish lady to check, and we indeed have it. I'll send you a scan 2moro Csírz -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of neil smith Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 3:29 PM To: Dartmouth Subject: [NSP] Message to Chris Birch and Dave S Does either of you (or indeed anyone else) have the dots to De Feierwon? I know it was published years ago in Jul Christophory(?)'s book Mir schwatze Letzeburgesch but I've long since lost it. It occurs to me it would make a grand tune for a piping ensemble. Cheers, Neil __ Add other email accounts to Hotmail in 3 easy steps. [1]Find out how. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394593/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Chariots of fire
I'd still appreciate it if Chris could send the scan, though, as I seem to recall that version had harmonies. I no longer own the Christophory book (gave it away) but the version my good lady has located so far was in a school book sans harmonies. But she thinks it might have harmonies in an old book that she will search for over the weekend. Failing that, I'll write you a pipe-friendly arrangement (how many parts would you like?). c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Chariots of Fire, imaginative harmonies and pipe-friendly key ;-)
Speaking of keys, maybe you can retrofit a few more. Csírz Maat et gudd mais net ze dacks -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: From notation to music
Well Ruggiero Ricci says that when he was 15 he played the Ernst concerto for Heifetz, who was duly impressed but commented but you need to be able to sight-read it. I suppose one has to practise like hell to get the technique in the first place and then just keep on playing whatever comes along (as I get the impression most experienced orchestral players - at least rank-and-file string-players - do). Csírz (rank and vile string-player) -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 6:32 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: From notation to music On 1 Dec 2009, Gibbons, John wrote: Most dot-dependent players can't notate or pay what they hear, only what they see. I am reminded of a jaw dropping comment I once heard (from a player of pipes): I don't need to practise, I can sight-read Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: From notation to music
Hear hear! -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Victor Eskenazi Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 11:16 PM To: Anthony Robb Cc: cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; gibbonssoi...@aol.com Subject: [NSP] Re: From notation to music Was it the classical period...? Music was never fully written out as it is today. You were given the basic melody and the chord structure... Somewhere along the line things were dumbed down... Victor On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 01:58, Anthony Robb [1]anth...@robbpipes.com wrote: It would be weird if that's what our music is about. The essence of this music, however, is that we hear the stories, learn them, make them our own and reproduce them, not verbatim, but slightly differently as mood and memory serves. They have to become part of us; not something external interpreted from marks on a page. Once they are inside us it is very natural to share them with others. As aye Anthony --- On Tue, 1/12/09, [2]gibbonssoi...@aol.com [3]gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: From: [4]gibbonssoi...@aol.com [5]gibbonssoi...@aol.com Subject: [NSP] Re: From notation to music To: [6]cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk, [7]...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 1 December, 2009, 0:38 But remembering the words of a speech, writing them down verbatim, then being unable to remember them again without reading the transcript is plain weird -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com 2. mailto:gibbonssoi...@aol.com 3. mailto:gibbonssoi...@aol.com 4. mailto:gibbonssoi...@aol.com 5. mailto:gibbonssoi...@aol.com 6. mailto:cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk 7. mailto:nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: From notation to music
Stephen: The lack of 'improvisation' runs inline with the omnipotence of the composer and bigger orchestras in Romantic period. Hard to improvise in this context! True. But is this really decline, or the 'rot set(ting) in'??? Well it was the loss of a skill. Whether it was the rot setting in is of course a matter of taste, but to my mind the hypertrophy of the Romantic and 20th orchestra was an illustration of more is less. Getting a bit off-topic: I can very much enjoy massive orchestral stuff, but I think it's interesting that - to my mind at least - Schoenberg summed up and excelled everything the 19th century composers had been striving for in a mere half hour for string sextet (Verklärte Nacht in the original version. I don't think the string orchestra version adds much apart from volume, bulk and stodge, while reducing clarity. This is purely a personal opinion - I don't want to get into pointless arguments.) c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: From notation to music
John: I haven't damned 'classical musicians' at all. I wasn't accusing you personally of damning classical musicians. Sorry if it came over that way. Some people, including some who should no better, do damn classical musicians, however, and even take a pride in their own inability to read the dots. Inverted snobbery if you ask me. Btw, when I used the term damn I was merely referring back to Sheila Bridges' contribution, in which she wrote and it seems that many who are damning the classically trained on this nsp ... Best c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: From notation to music
I actually agree with all this, but I for one have received the reply no, we're trying to get away from that when I asked a well-know Irish musician if he could read music. I have also heard a well-known singer dismissing classical players with the phrase the buggers couldn't do it if it wasn't written down. These people, both of who I highly respect, can remain anonymous, as I am talking about my experience and not pointing fingers at others. Peace C __ From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 6:32 PM To: j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk; BIRCH Christopher (DGT) Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: From notation to music What a long, long way we've wandered from my initial point! No one can take any pride at all in not having a skill and I for one know no by ear leaner who would not wish to add the skill of sight-reading to their box of repertoire-expanding tools. For many it simply wasn't an option. They picked up the tunes from listening to what was available and pleasing to them. The lack of such a useful skill as sight-reading forced them to listen over and over again to the style of music played and gave them an insight into the music hidden beyond the dots. It is the absorption of the music into their very being which gives this music, often simple on the surface, it's complexity, vitality and beauty. Traditional music has been successfully passed on by listening for many generations. This is not beyond any musician who wants to aspire to it. It does, however, require more discipline from a dots reader because tunes can be quickly, nay instantly, accessible to them. The worry is that the more people who do this, without lots and lots of listening to what generations before have worked at and left us, the more we will be passing on a watered down version of the tradition. Stewart Hardy is a truly gifted musician by any standard. His sight reading is impeccable. Jimmy Little wouldn't know where to start with a page of dots. The one thing that they share is the amount of listening they do to take in every ounce of life and bounce from our music and then give it back with their own unique surprises and turns. It is unmistakeably part of the tradition but not slavishly copied and reproduced. Dots on their own can never pass on this feel for the music. No one is (snobbishly) damning sight-readers per se. We are saying there is a heirarchy of approaches in traditional music; the most important is listening (over and over again -even if this doesn't mean actually learning by ear) then turn, once the music has been absorbed, to the dots for reference, repertoire expansion, resurrection of old manuscript tunes etc. When done this way around, each and every one of us involved in the tradition benefits and so our blessings (not condemnation!) be upon you. As aye Anthony --- On Wed, 2/12/09, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Subject: [NSP] Re: From notation to music To: j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 2 December, 2009, 16:02 John: I haven't damned 'classical musicians' at all. I wasn't accusing you personally of damning classical musicians. Sorry if it came over that way. Some people, including some who should no better, do damn classical musicians, however, and even take a pride in their own inability to read the dots. Inverted snobbery if you ask me. Btw, when I used the term damn I was merely referring back to Sheila Bridges' contribution, in which she wrote and it seems that many who are damning the classically trained on this nsp ... Best c To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP item on BBC Radio 4
starts at 2.58 -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Steve Bliven Sent: Fri 1/1/2010 7:40 PM To: Marianne Hall; oatenp...@googlemail.com; List - NSP Subject: [NSP] Re: NSP item on BBC Radio 4 Nope, still there. Have to wait through some other patter but it's there on 31 December at 13:30. Best wishes and happy new year. Steve On 1/1/10 1:20 PM, Marianne Hall allerwa...@hotmail.com wrote: It appears the Listen Again facility is not available for this programme. However, I was lucky enough to hear some of it, and was looking forward to listening again. Bah, humbug, BBC! To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: What Do You Call Yourself?
If you are playing in a church I'd suggest Northumbrian small pipes (alternatively 'smallpipes' or 'small-pipes' . . . there I'd agree with this suggestion (and the spelling smallpipes, coz they're not just any old pipes that happen to be small). I also think it's more conventional to write Joe Soap - Harp, Josette Savon - viola, A. Gabriel - trumpet etc. than to use harpist, violist, trumpeter etc. FWIW csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr. Bewick, Rats and Inverted Bags
Reminds me of a limerick a friend of mine composed in response to an expensive lot of hot air from a rip-off outfit called Time Manager International that I and my colleagues were obliged to attend many years back. A time manager from L.A. (or something that rhymes with day anyway) Was planning his tasks for the day And next week and for June And next year and quite soon It was time to go home, Hurray! -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Steve Bliven Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:12 PM To: List - NSP Subject: [NSP] Re: Mr. Bewick, Rats and Inverted Bags This made the rounds awhile back but also shows the origins www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKdGO8OeaZI Best wishes to all (except those partially covered with latex - those deserve what they get) Steve On 1/28/10 4:58 PM, Anita Evans an...@evansweb.co.uk wrote: I picked this at random on youtube, but it illustrates the bag origins very nicely I think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eob8pDcXhV4 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] vachement bien!
[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jedd2FiZTqM -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jedd2FiZTqM To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning
I have it on good authority from several Irish persons that the name of the Irish language in English is Irish. In Irish it's gaeilge. Gaelic is normally reserved for the language of Scotland Gaeilge na hAlban (or Gh`aidhlig in Scossgallic) Csirz -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:04 AM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation OK so it doesn't butter your parsnip! Perhaps the easiest answer is to press the stop button instead of letting it bother you! Cheers Anthony --- On Fri, 5/2/10, Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com wrote: From: Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 5 February, 2010, 9:25 There's a youtube of Maureen Hegarty singing a particularly attractive version at [1][2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 , with a link to her own youtube with her singing a lot of other Irish classics. particularly attractive ? LOL! How about Make sure you have a barf bag handy before you listen! But then: de gustibus non est disputandum as we say in Maastricht (pronounced disgusting buses full of disputing nuns). Mr Nasty To get on or off this list see list information at [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NraclF8vRX8 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning
at least you know your brass from your oboe! -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Anita Evans Sent: Fri 2/5/2010 7:57 PM To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Subject: [NSP] Re: Gaelic Pronunciation - pedantry warning Matt Seattle wrote: It's all beyond me, I don't know my Erse from my Alba brilliant Matt - I (and the list) needed cheering up! Anita -- Anita Evans To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Fidola?
Thanks for the explanation. I think a similar arrangement has been used on other instruments in the past. It is strange that I can't find any reference to such a beast on the Internet, but I did find this: [1]http://kaczmarek.org/pages/biopage_folder/bio_1.html Wiki is not much help either: [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidola __ From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:38 AM To: bri...@aol.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; BIRCH Christopher (DGT) Subject: Fidola? Hello Christopher, A fidola is rather different to a tuned down fiddle or small viola in that it has a hole for the sound-post to pass through and be pinned directly to the trebleside foot of the bridge. This gives a bigger plate/deeper tone. They need to be treated with care as the arrangement is not robust. To call it a viola might lead to problems with the Trade Descriptions Act! Cheers Anthony --- On Mon, 8/2/10, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Subject: [NSP] Re: NSP duet with other instruments To: bri...@aol.com, nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 8 February, 2010, 9:21 fidola (which I think - is a fiddle tuned like a viola, i.e. a fifth lower). Given that the size of the viola has not been standardised (unlike that of the violin - body length tends to be around 360 mm, with extremes at 354 and 362) , why not just call it a small viola? c To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://kaczmarek.org/pages/biopage_folder/bio_1.html 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidola 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP duet with other instruments
Stringing of baroque violins is another can of worms since tension varied widely according to local conventions and personal preferences. There is also the question of equal tension versus progressive tension and whether wound strings should be used for the G and/or D. It is, or at least used to be, widely believed that baroque string tension was lower than modern. As Philip points out, this is not true - even though playing was generally less high-tension than modern violin playing. A good starting point for anyone interested is here: http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/hstvnst.html (I have no vested interests). It is interesting that modern baroque is an approximation of common 19th century practise. I have personally found that very slightly progressive tension using rows CDEF (all gut) for the ascending strings of a violin at A = 415 gives good results (strictly equal tension gives a very thick G string and a very thin E, which may be historically correct (cf. Leopold Mozart's treatise), but feels uncomfortable to my modern fingers). Some argue that equal tension really means equal feel anyway. DEFG would give similar results a semitone lower. I have also tried tuning a modern violin fitted with Dominant Heavy strings down to concert F and the results were good. I think the heavy versions of a lot of strings on the market today could give satisfactory tensions at lower pitch (especially the steel one, if you like that sort of thing). c -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Philip Gruar Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:37 PM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] NSP duet with other instruments Margaret's comment: When I'm playing duets with Andy's nsp, I always tune down. For me, I've spent a long time trying to find the right fiddle and strings so it doesn't sound like a kipper-box (or I hope it doesn't) when tuned lower. made me think, what about baroque violinists? Specialist baroque orchestras and soloists play at A=415 or a semitone lower than modern standard pitch and very occasionally even lower. This is getting on for low enough to play with standard-pitch Northumbrian pipes. Proper baroque violins have the neck set at a flatter angle than ordinary modern violins/fiddles (neck angle was increased in the 19th cent. among other things to enable higher string tension - louder tone). 18th century classical technique had a lot more in common with the playing styles of traditional music than modern classical technique does e.g. bow-hold, sometimes playing with fiddle held lower, using first position and open strings more etc. - and generally it was less high-tension than modern violin playing. This doesn't mean it lacks life, and good baroque violinists certainly don't sound as if they're playing on a kipper-box strung with knicker elastic. Would using specialist baroque-violin gut strings on a standard fiddle make for better results at the lower pitch? Just some thoughts from a non-string player, so excuse any ignorance shown! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: kipper box
Would someone care to admit to a close enough acquaintance with a female baroque violinist to safely enquire about her knicker elastic? I'm working on it ;-) c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
