[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[matti . picus]

Upate: since there is a clear delineation of spammers vs legitimate posts, I 
would like to tweak the policy [0] and from now on a single spam message will 
move email addresses down a category: from authorized to moderated and from 
moderated to unsubscribed. I have changed the policy statement accordingly, 
pending disagreement here. It makes the bookkeeping simpler since we don't have 
to track spam messages (we get on average 1 or 2 a day)

Matti 

[0] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[matti . picus]

Update: we now have a team of moderators for the mailing list. The policy for 
moderation is in the list summary [0]. 

Since moderation began on Oct 26, we have rejected 15 spam messages, 
unsubscribed 2 email addresses that spammed more than 3 each, and released 4 
messages from moderated users to the mailing list. 

Matti

[0] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Juan Nunez-Iglesias]

The upside of discourse, though, is that those messages can be permanently 
deleted by moderators. In contrast, the mailing list archives appear 
unalterable...

At any rate, those two messages (assuming we're talking about the same ones) 
don't appear to be spam, but rather a misunderstanding of the latest "submit 
feedback" link on PyPI.

On Mon, 18 Oct 2021, at 12:09 AM, Matti Picus wrote:
> It seems the spammers have figured out how to get onto discourse as 
> well. The last two messages on 
> https://discuss.python.org/t/pypi-user-feedback/11125/4 (on the python 
> discourse instance) are the first I have seen there.
>
> Matti
>
> On 10/10/21 7:37 pm, Hameer Abbasi wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Just my 2 cents: I marked a few of the actual spam e-mails on this and the 
>> SciPy-user list as spam on my client, and it seems many random e-mails get 
>> sent to spam now, from both the NumPy and SciPy lists.
>>
>> I’ve tried to pull as many out as possible by moving them to inbox, hoping 
>> it’ll get better, but it hasn’t so far.
>>
>> I’d very much prefer Discourse or GitHub discussions, of the two I prefer 
>> Discussions, but Discourse isn’t too bad either.
>>
>> With best regards,
>> Hameer Abbasi
>>
>>> Am 06.10.2021 um 22:57 schrieb Aaron Meurer :
>>>
>>> Coming back to earth on the original discussion, is there really no
>>> way to moderate new users on the mailing list platform used by this
>>> list (mailman?)? On the SymPy list, which uses Google Groups, we
>>> moderate all new users, so that first time posts have to be moderated
>>> but after that people can post directly. We have had very minimal spam
>>> even in the queue (to be fair, I'm sure Google applies its own
>>> filtering), and only one in recent memory that got through, due to the
>>> moderators not reading the message contents carefully enough.
>>>
>>> Aaron Meurer
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 7:23 AM Robert Kern  wrote:
 On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 4:07 AM  wrote:
 [spam]

 Okay, now, they're just messing with us.

 --
 Robert Kern
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Matti Picus]

It seems the spammers have figured out how to get onto discourse as 
well. The last two messages on 
https://discuss.python.org/t/pypi-user-feedback/11125/4 (on the python 
discourse instance) are the first I have seen there.


Matti

On 10/10/21 7:37 pm, Hameer Abbasi wrote:

Hello everyone,

Just my 2 cents: I marked a few of the actual spam e-mails on this and the 
SciPy-user list as spam on my client, and it seems many random e-mails get sent 
to spam now, from both the NumPy and SciPy lists.

I’ve tried to pull as many out as possible by moving them to inbox, hoping 
it’ll get better, but it hasn’t so far.

I’d very much prefer Discourse or GitHub discussions, of the two I prefer 
Discussions, but Discourse isn’t too bad either.

With best regards,
Hameer Abbasi


Am 06.10.2021 um 22:57 schrieb Aaron Meurer :

Coming back to earth on the original discussion, is there really no
way to moderate new users on the mailing list platform used by this
list (mailman?)? On the SymPy list, which uses Google Groups, we
moderate all new users, so that first time posts have to be moderated
but after that people can post directly. We have had very minimal spam
even in the queue (to be fair, I'm sure Google applies its own
filtering), and only one in recent memory that got through, due to the
moderators not reading the message contents carefully enough.

Aaron Meurer

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 7:23 AM Robert Kern  wrote:

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 4:07 AM  wrote:
[spam]

Okay, now, they're just messing with us.

--
Robert Kern
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Daniele Nicolodi]

On 10/10/2021 18:37, Hameer Abbasi wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Just my 2 cents: I marked a few of the actual spam e-mails on this 
> and the SciPy-user list as spam on my client, and it seems many
> random e-mails get sent to spam now, from both the NumPy and SciPy lists.

You should complain about this to your email service provider.

> I’d very much prefer Discourse or GitHub discussions, of the two I
> prefer Discussions, but Discourse isn’t too bad either.
I don't think moving away from the mailing list because your email
provider (despite being one of the largest corporations in the world,
and being the email service one of it core busyness) is unable to
provide you a reliable service is the way forward.

Also, in the case of Github Discussions, I don't think that moving to a
service not controlled by the community is the right thing, especially
as your previous statement already demonstrates that abdicating control
may culminate with the tools we use not operating in the way we would
like them to.

Cheers,
Dan
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Hameer Abbasi]

Hello everyone,

Just my 2 cents: I marked a few of the actual spam e-mails on this and the 
SciPy-user list as spam on my client, and it seems many random e-mails get sent 
to spam now, from both the NumPy and SciPy lists.

I’ve tried to pull as many out as possible by moving them to inbox, hoping 
it’ll get better, but it hasn’t so far.

I’d very much prefer Discourse or GitHub discussions, of the two I prefer 
Discussions, but Discourse isn’t too bad either.

With best regards,
Hameer Abbasi

> Am 06.10.2021 um 22:57 schrieb Aaron Meurer :
> 
> Coming back to earth on the original discussion, is there really no
> way to moderate new users on the mailing list platform used by this
> list (mailman?)? On the SymPy list, which uses Google Groups, we
> moderate all new users, so that first time posts have to be moderated
> but after that people can post directly. We have had very minimal spam
> even in the queue (to be fair, I'm sure Google applies its own
> filtering), and only one in recent memory that got through, due to the
> moderators not reading the message contents carefully enough.
> 
> Aaron Meurer
> 
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 7:23 AM Robert Kern  wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 4:07 AM  wrote:
>> [spam]
>> 
>> Okay, now, they're just messing with us.
>> 
>> --
>> Robert Kern
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stefan van der Walt]

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, at 13:57, Aaron Meurer wrote:
> Coming back to earth on the original discussion, is there really no
> way to moderate new users on the mailing list platform used by this
> list (mailman?)? On the SymPy list, which uses Google Groups, we
> moderate all new users, so that first time posts have to be moderated
> but after that people can post directly. We have had very minimal spam
> even in the queue (to be fair, I'm sure Google applies its own
> filtering), and only one in recent memory that got through, due to the
> moderators not reading the message contents carefully enough.

For scikit-image we have to pre-approve all new posters and subscribers.  The 
posts are fine, but vetting subscribers is a pain because you can't just Google 
every email to find out if it is legit.

The spammers are getting smarter; one of them recently used `kern` in their 
name to get around our moderation :)

We've updated discuss.scientific-python.org to allow "Mailing list mode", which 
should simulate what Matti and Chuck want (i.e., receiving emails for each 
post, and being able to reply).  You can enable it under your user profile if 
you want to try it out.

Stéfan
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Aaron Meurer]

Coming back to earth on the original discussion, is there really no
way to moderate new users on the mailing list platform used by this
list (mailman?)? On the SymPy list, which uses Google Groups, we
moderate all new users, so that first time posts have to be moderated
but after that people can post directly. We have had very minimal spam
even in the queue (to be fair, I'm sure Google applies its own
filtering), and only one in recent memory that got through, due to the
moderators not reading the message contents carefully enough.

Aaron Meurer

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 7:23 AM Robert Kern  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 4:07 AM  wrote:
> [spam]
>
> Okay, now, they're just messing with us.
>
> --
> Robert Kern
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[paytonmorrison48]

i visited first time  your site . i found informative article. 
https://bit.ly/3ARtne4
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Sebastian Berg]

On Wed, 2021-09-29 at 11:07 -0700, Stefan van der Walt wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 03:02, Ralf Gommers wrote:
> > We don't have admin access to the python.org lists, so this is a
> > bit of a problem. We have never had a spam problem, so we can ask
> > to block this user first. If it continues to happen, we may be able
> > to moderate new subscriber emails, but we do need to ask for
> > permissions first and I'm not sure we'll get them.
> > 
> > A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has
> > far better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more
> > approachable for people not used to mailing lists (which is most
> > newcomers to open source). Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with
> > the new CZI grant having a focus on improving the contributor
> > experience, we should be able to do this.
> 
> I would like to offer the use of 
> https://discuss.scientific-python.org.  I would be happy to handle


I am +0.8 for building up a community forum there, for better or worse,
a large chunk of the traffic here is just an announcement/formal list
these days.  It would be nice to have a community forum.

+0.8 just because I am not sure I want to be pinned down on moderation.

> email list migration, and have created the following two categories


Personally, I currently lean to +0 if we aim for a larger community
forum, otherwise -0.  I am not sure that moving the list in its current
form/volume is worth annoying those who prefer mail.

But, I also think the creation of a user forum can be distinct from
moving the "formal" uses of this mailing list – at least for a while.


> for NumPy discussion:
> 
> User discussion: https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/user/numpy <
> https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/user/numpy/19>
> Contributor discussion:   
> https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/contributor/numpy <  
> https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/contributor/numpy/18>
> 
> We're happy to support this as part of the Scientific Python


I do like is the idea of having a cross-project platform (both for devs
and users/support).  Not sure how well discourse will scale, if e.g.
scipy also moved into one forum.
But the tags and categories may have a lot of potential!

If we have a plan e.g. to also move SciPy-dev to the same place, there
could be a very concrete benefit of allowing easier reach across
projects.
(Even NumPy is pretty diverse in topics.  Discussions in random
numbers, fft, or linalg may find a lot of interest in SciPy.)

Cheers,

Sebastian


> ecosystem grant, and will give admin rights to anyone on the NumPy
> developer team who wants to help manage / moderate discussions.
> 
> Of course, we can also just delete these if the team prefers to have
> their discussions somewhere else.  But I think there is a benefit to
> bringing community discussions together in one place.
> 
> Best regards,
> Stéfan
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ilhan Polat]

Judging by the support of it, I'll check whether I missed the whole point
of Discourse when I was trying to use it, in the meantime.

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 7:57 PM Stephan Hoyer  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:21 AM Ilhan Polat  wrote:
>
>> > GitHub Discussions is more of a Q platform, like Stackoverflow. I
>> don't think it really makes sense for free form discussion.
>>
>>  I don't see how it is to be honest. I'm hearing this complaint quite
>> often but I can't see how that is. That's quite not my experience.
>> Especially in node.js repo and other participants of the discussions beta
>> are quite happy with it.
>>
>> Maybe I should rephrase why I am mentining this; Very often, some thing
>> is popping up in the issues asking for whether X is suitable for Sci/NumPy
>> and we lead the user here and more often than not they don't follow up. I
>> can't blame them because the whole mailing list experience especially for
>> the newcomers is a dreadful experience and most of the time you don't get
>> any feedback. Also you can't move because in the issue we told them to come
>> here and nobody is interested, then things stop unless someone nudges the
>> repo issue which was the idea in the first place. So in a way we are
>> putting this barrier as in "go talk to the elders in the mountain and bring
>> some shiny gems on your way back" which makes not much sense. We are using
>> the issues and PRs anyways to discuss stuff  willingly or not so I can't
>> say I follow the argument for the holistic mailing list format. This
>> doesn't mean that I ignore the convenience because that was the case in the
>> last decades. I'm totally fine with it. But if we are going to move it
>> let's make it count not switch to an identical platform just for the sake
>> of it. If not Github then something actually encourages the community to
>> join and not getting in the way.
>>
>
> I agree, "go talk to the elders in the mountain" is not a great experience.
>
> One of the other problems about mailing lists is that it's awkward or
> impossible to ping old discussions. E.g., if you find a mailing list thread
> discussing an issue from two years ago, you pretty much have to start a new
> thread to discuss it.
>
> I think GitHub discussions is a perfectly fine web-based platform and
> definitely an improvement over a mailing list, but do like Discourse a
> little better. It's literally one click for a user to sign up to post on
> Discourse if they already have a GitHub account.
>
>
>
>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 6:31 PM Stephan Hoyer  wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 8:55 AM Matthew Brett 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Only to say that:

 * I used to have a very firm preference for mail, because I'm pretty
 happy with Gmail as a mail interface, and I didn't want to have
 another channel I had to monitor, but
 * I've spent more time on Discourse over the last year, mainly on
 Jupyter, but I have also set up instances for my own projects.  I now
 have a fairly strong preference for Discourse, because of its very
 nice Markdown authoring, pleasant web interface for reviewing
 discussions and reasonable mailing list mode.

>>>
>>> +1 Markdown support, the ability to edit/delete posts, a good web
>>> interface and the possibility for new-comers to jump into an ongoing
>>> discussion are all major advantages to Discourse.
>>>
>>> I am not concerned about spam management or moderation. NumPy-Discussion
>>> is not a very popular form, and we have plenty of mature contributors to
>>> help moderate.
>>>
>>>
 * I have hardly used Github Discussions, so I can't comment on them.
 Are there large projects that are happy with them?   How does that
 compare to Discourse, for example?

>>>
>>> GitHub Discussions is more of a Q platform, like Stackoverflow. I
>>> don't think it really makes sense for free form discussion.
>>>
>>>
 * It will surely cause some harm if it is not clear where discussions
 happen, mainly (mailing list, Discourse, Github Discussions) so it
 seems to me better to decide on one standard place, and commit to
 that.

>>>
>>> +1 let's pick a place and stick to it!
>>>
>>>

 Cheers,

 Matthew

 On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:39 PM Rohit Goswami 
 wrote:
 >
 > I’m firmly against GH discussions because of the upvoting mechanism.
 We don’t need to be Reddit or SO. .NET had a bad experience with the
 discussions as well [1].
 >
 > [1] https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore/issues/29935
 >
 > — Rohit
 >
 > On 1 Oct 2021, at 15:04, Andras Deak wrote:
 >
 > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:27 PM Ilhan Polat 
 wrote:
 >>
 >> The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally
 everybody who is engaged with the code, is familiar with the format,
 included in the codebase product and has replies in built unlike the
 Discourse (opinion is mine) useless flat discussion design 

[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stephan Hoyer]

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:21 AM Ilhan Polat  wrote:

> > GitHub Discussions is more of a Q platform, like Stackoverflow. I
> don't think it really makes sense for free form discussion.
>
>  I don't see how it is to be honest. I'm hearing this complaint quite
> often but I can't see how that is. That's quite not my experience.
> Especially in node.js repo and other participants of the discussions beta
> are quite happy with it.
>
> Maybe I should rephrase why I am mentining this; Very often, some thing is
> popping up in the issues asking for whether X is suitable for Sci/NumPy and
> we lead the user here and more often than not they don't follow up. I can't
> blame them because the whole mailing list experience especially for the
> newcomers is a dreadful experience and most of the time you don't get any
> feedback. Also you can't move because in the issue we told them to come
> here and nobody is interested, then things stop unless someone nudges the
> repo issue which was the idea in the first place. So in a way we are
> putting this barrier as in "go talk to the elders in the mountain and bring
> some shiny gems on your way back" which makes not much sense. We are using
> the issues and PRs anyways to discuss stuff  willingly or not so I can't
> say I follow the argument for the holistic mailing list format. This
> doesn't mean that I ignore the convenience because that was the case in the
> last decades. I'm totally fine with it. But if we are going to move it
> let's make it count not switch to an identical platform just for the sake
> of it. If not Github then something actually encourages the community to
> join and not getting in the way.
>

I agree, "go talk to the elders in the mountain" is not a great experience.

One of the other problems about mailing lists is that it's awkward or
impossible to ping old discussions. E.g., if you find a mailing list thread
discussing an issue from two years ago, you pretty much have to start a new
thread to discuss it.

I think GitHub discussions is a perfectly fine web-based platform and
definitely an improvement over a mailing list, but do like Discourse a
little better. It's literally one click for a user to sign up to post on
Discourse if they already have a GitHub account.



> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 6:31 PM Stephan Hoyer  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 8:55 AM Matthew Brett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Only to say that:
>>>
>>> * I used to have a very firm preference for mail, because I'm pretty
>>> happy with Gmail as a mail interface, and I didn't want to have
>>> another channel I had to monitor, but
>>> * I've spent more time on Discourse over the last year, mainly on
>>> Jupyter, but I have also set up instances for my own projects.  I now
>>> have a fairly strong preference for Discourse, because of its very
>>> nice Markdown authoring, pleasant web interface for reviewing
>>> discussions and reasonable mailing list mode.
>>>
>>
>> +1 Markdown support, the ability to edit/delete posts, a good web
>> interface and the possibility for new-comers to jump into an ongoing
>> discussion are all major advantages to Discourse.
>>
>> I am not concerned about spam management or moderation. NumPy-Discussion
>> is not a very popular form, and we have plenty of mature contributors to
>> help moderate.
>>
>>
>>> * I have hardly used Github Discussions, so I can't comment on them.
>>> Are there large projects that are happy with them?   How does that
>>> compare to Discourse, for example?
>>>
>>
>> GitHub Discussions is more of a Q platform, like Stackoverflow. I don't
>> think it really makes sense for free form discussion.
>>
>>
>>> * It will surely cause some harm if it is not clear where discussions
>>> happen, mainly (mailing list, Discourse, Github Discussions) so it
>>> seems to me better to decide on one standard place, and commit to
>>> that.
>>>
>>
>> +1 let's pick a place and stick to it!
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:39 PM Rohit Goswami 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I’m firmly against GH discussions because of the upvoting mechanism.
>>> We don’t need to be Reddit or SO. .NET had a bad experience with the
>>> discussions as well [1].
>>> >
>>> > [1] https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore/issues/29935
>>> >
>>> > — Rohit
>>> >
>>> > On 1 Oct 2021, at 15:04, Andras Deak wrote:
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:27 PM Ilhan Polat 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally everybody
>>> who is engaged with the code, is familiar with the format, included in the
>>> codebase product and has replies in built unlike the Discourse (opinion is
>>> mine) useless flat discussion design where replies are all over the place
>>> just like the mailing list in case you are not using a tree view supporting
>>> client. Hence topic hijacking is one of the main usability difficulties of
>>> emails.
>>> >>
>>> >> The goal here is to have a coherent engagement with everyone not just
>>> within a small 

[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ilhan Polat]

> I’m firmly against GH discussions because of the upvoting mechanism. We
don’t need to be Reddit or SO. .NET had a bad experience with the
discussions as well [1].

They are not used, by default, it's date ordered you can choose whichever.
Voting plays no role unless you want to sort by votes.

> Given that we've had a literal order of magnitude more messages about the
spam than the spam itself, maybe it's just a blip?

Indeed that is the case :) Guilty as charged. I'm probably being a bit
opportunist since hijacking is easy here

> GitHub Discussions is more of a Q platform, like Stackoverflow. I don't
think it really makes sense for free form discussion.

 I don't see how it is to be honest. I'm hearing this complaint quite often
but I can't see how that is. That's quite not my experience. Especially in
node.js repo and other participants of the discussions beta are quite happy
with it.

Maybe I should rephrase why I am mentining this; Very often, some thing is
popping up in the issues asking for whether X is suitable for Sci/NumPy and
we lead the user here and more often than not they don't follow up. I can't
blame them because the whole mailing list experience especially for the
newcomers is a dreadful experience and most of the time you don't get any
feedback. Also you can't move because in the issue we told them to come
here and nobody is interested, then things stop unless someone nudges the
repo issue which was the idea in the first place. So in a way we are
putting this barrier as in "go talk to the elders in the mountain and bring
some shiny gems on your way back" which makes not much sense. We are using
the issues and PRs anyways to discuss stuff  willingly or not so I can't
say I follow the argument for the holistic mailing list format. This
doesn't mean that I ignore the convenience because that was the case in the
last decades. I'm totally fine with it. But if we are going to move it
let's make it count not switch to an identical platform just for the sake
of it. If not Github then something actually encourages the community to
join and not getting in the way.





On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 6:31 PM Stephan Hoyer  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 8:55 AM Matthew Brett 
> wrote:
>
>> Only to say that:
>>
>> * I used to have a very firm preference for mail, because I'm pretty
>> happy with Gmail as a mail interface, and I didn't want to have
>> another channel I had to monitor, but
>> * I've spent more time on Discourse over the last year, mainly on
>> Jupyter, but I have also set up instances for my own projects.  I now
>> have a fairly strong preference for Discourse, because of its very
>> nice Markdown authoring, pleasant web interface for reviewing
>> discussions and reasonable mailing list mode.
>>
>
> +1 Markdown support, the ability to edit/delete posts, a good web
> interface and the possibility for new-comers to jump into an ongoing
> discussion are all major advantages to Discourse.
>
> I am not concerned about spam management or moderation. NumPy-Discussion
> is not a very popular form, and we have plenty of mature contributors to
> help moderate.
>
>
>> * I have hardly used Github Discussions, so I can't comment on them.
>> Are there large projects that are happy with them?   How does that
>> compare to Discourse, for example?
>>
>
> GitHub Discussions is more of a Q platform, like Stackoverflow. I don't
> think it really makes sense for free form discussion.
>
>
>> * It will surely cause some harm if it is not clear where discussions
>> happen, mainly (mailing list, Discourse, Github Discussions) so it
>> seems to me better to decide on one standard place, and commit to
>> that.
>>
>
> +1 let's pick a place and stick to it!
>
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:39 PM Rohit Goswami 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I’m firmly against GH discussions because of the upvoting mechanism. We
>> don’t need to be Reddit or SO. .NET had a bad experience with the
>> discussions as well [1].
>> >
>> > [1] https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore/issues/29935
>> >
>> > — Rohit
>> >
>> > On 1 Oct 2021, at 15:04, Andras Deak wrote:
>> >
>> > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:27 PM Ilhan Polat 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally everybody
>> who is engaged with the code, is familiar with the format, included in the
>> codebase product and has replies in built unlike the Discourse (opinion is
>> mine) useless flat discussion design where replies are all over the place
>> just like the mailing list in case you are not using a tree view supporting
>> client. Hence topic hijacking is one of the main usability difficulties of
>> emails.
>> >>
>> >> The goal here is to have a coherent engagement with everyone not just
>> within a small circle, such that there is indeed a discussion happening
>> rather than a few people chiming in. It would be a nice analytics exercise
>> to have how many active users using these lists. I'd say 20-25 max for
>> contribs and 

[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stephan Hoyer]

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 8:55 AM Matthew Brett 
wrote:

> Only to say that:
>
> * I used to have a very firm preference for mail, because I'm pretty
> happy with Gmail as a mail interface, and I didn't want to have
> another channel I had to monitor, but
> * I've spent more time on Discourse over the last year, mainly on
> Jupyter, but I have also set up instances for my own projects.  I now
> have a fairly strong preference for Discourse, because of its very
> nice Markdown authoring, pleasant web interface for reviewing
> discussions and reasonable mailing list mode.
>

+1 Markdown support, the ability to edit/delete posts, a good web interface
and the possibility for new-comers to jump into an ongoing discussion are
all major advantages to Discourse.

I am not concerned about spam management or moderation. NumPy-Discussion is
not a very popular form, and we have plenty of mature contributors to help
moderate.


> * I have hardly used Github Discussions, so I can't comment on them.
> Are there large projects that are happy with them?   How does that
> compare to Discourse, for example?
>

GitHub Discussions is more of a Q platform, like Stackoverflow. I don't
think it really makes sense for free form discussion.


> * It will surely cause some harm if it is not clear where discussions
> happen, mainly (mailing list, Discourse, Github Discussions) so it
> seems to me better to decide on one standard place, and commit to
> that.
>

+1 let's pick a place and stick to it!


>
> Cheers,
>
> Matthew
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:39 PM Rohit Goswami 
> wrote:
> >
> > I’m firmly against GH discussions because of the upvoting mechanism. We
> don’t need to be Reddit or SO. .NET had a bad experience with the
> discussions as well [1].
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore/issues/29935
> >
> > — Rohit
> >
> > On 1 Oct 2021, at 15:04, Andras Deak wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:27 PM Ilhan Polat  wrote:
> >>
> >> The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally everybody
> who is engaged with the code, is familiar with the format, included in the
> codebase product and has replies in built unlike the Discourse (opinion is
> mine) useless flat discussion design where replies are all over the place
> just like the mailing list in case you are not using a tree view supporting
> client. Hence topic hijacking is one of the main usability difficulties of
> emails.
> >>
> >> The goal here is to have a coherent engagement with everyone not just
> within a small circle, such that there is indeed a discussion happening
> rather than a few people chiming in. It would be a nice analytics exercise
> to have how many active users using these lists. I'd say 20-25 max for
> contribs and team members which is really not much. I know some people are
> still using IRC and mailing lists but I wouldn't argue that these are the
> modern media to have proper engaging discussions. "Who said to whom" is the
> bread and butter of such discussions. And I do think that discourse is
> exactly the same thing with mailing lists with a slightly better UI while
> virtually everyone else in the world is doing replies.
> >
> >
> > (There are probably a lot of users like myself who follow the mailing
> list discussions but rarely feel the need to speak up themselves. Not that
> this says much either way in the discussion, just pointing it out).
> >
> > I'm not intimately familiar with github discussions (I've only used it a
> few times), but as far as I can tell it only has answers (or "comments")
> and comments (or "replies") on answers, i.e. 2 levels of replies rather
> than a flat single level of replies. If this is indeed the case then I'm
> not sure it's that much better than a flat system, since when things really
> get hairy then 2 levels are probably also insufficient to ensure "who said
> to whom". The "clear replies" argument would hold stronger (in my
> peanut-gallery opinion) for a medium that supports full reply trees like
> many comment sections do on various websites.
> >
> > András
> >
> >>
> >> I would be willing to help with the objections raised since I have been
> using GH discussions for quite a while now and there are many tools
> available for administration of the discussions. For example,
> >>
> >>
> https://github.blog/changelog/2021-09-14-notification-emails-for-discussions/
> >>
> >> is a recent feature. I don't work for GitHub obviously and have nothing
> to do with them but the reasons I'm willing to hear about.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:07 PM Matthew Brett 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rohit Goswami 
> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > I guess then the approach overall would evolve to something like
> using the mailing list to announce discourse posts which need input. Though
> I would assume that the web interface essentially makes the mailing list
> almost like discourse, even for new users.
> >>> >
> >>> > The real issue IMO is 

[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Matthew Brett]

Only to say that:

* I used to have a very firm preference for mail, because I'm pretty
happy with Gmail as a mail interface, and I didn't want to have
another channel I had to monitor, but
* I've spent more time on Discourse over the last year, mainly on
Jupyter, but I have also set up instances for my own projects.  I now
have a fairly strong preference for Discourse, because of its very
nice Markdown authoring, pleasant web interface for reviewing
discussions and reasonable mailing list mode.
* I have hardly used Github Discussions, so I can't comment on them.
Are there large projects that are happy with them?   How does that
compare to Discourse, for example?
* It will surely cause some harm if it is not clear where discussions
happen, mainly (mailing list, Discourse, Github Discussions) so it
seems to me better to decide on one standard place, and commit to
that.

Cheers,

Matthew

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:39 PM Rohit Goswami  wrote:
>
> I’m firmly against GH discussions because of the upvoting mechanism. We don’t 
> need to be Reddit or SO. .NET had a bad experience with the discussions as 
> well [1].
>
> [1] https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore/issues/29935
>
> — Rohit
>
> On 1 Oct 2021, at 15:04, Andras Deak wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:27 PM Ilhan Polat  wrote:
>>
>> The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally everybody who is 
>> engaged with the code, is familiar with the format, included in the codebase 
>> product and has replies in built unlike the Discourse (opinion is mine) 
>> useless flat discussion design where replies are all over the place just 
>> like the mailing list in case you are not using a tree view supporting 
>> client. Hence topic hijacking is one of the main usability difficulties of 
>> emails.
>>
>> The goal here is to have a coherent engagement with everyone not just within 
>> a small circle, such that there is indeed a discussion happening rather than 
>> a few people chiming in. It would be a nice analytics exercise to have how 
>> many active users using these lists. I'd say 20-25 max for contribs and team 
>> members which is really not much. I know some people are still using IRC and 
>> mailing lists but I wouldn't argue that these are the modern media to have 
>> proper engaging discussions. "Who said to whom" is the bread and butter of 
>> such discussions. And I do think that discourse is exactly the same thing 
>> with mailing lists with a slightly better UI while virtually everyone else 
>> in the world is doing replies.
>
>
> (There are probably a lot of users like myself who follow the mailing list 
> discussions but rarely feel the need to speak up themselves. Not that this 
> says much either way in the discussion, just pointing it out).
>
> I'm not intimately familiar with github discussions (I've only used it a few 
> times), but as far as I can tell it only has answers (or "comments") and 
> comments (or "replies") on answers, i.e. 2 levels of replies rather than a 
> flat single level of replies. If this is indeed the case then I'm not sure 
> it's that much better than a flat system, since when things really get hairy 
> then 2 levels are probably also insufficient to ensure "who said to whom". 
> The "clear replies" argument would hold stronger (in my peanut-gallery 
> opinion) for a medium that supports full reply trees like many comment 
> sections do on various websites.
>
> András
>
>>
>> I would be willing to help with the objections raised since I have been 
>> using GH discussions for quite a while now and there are many tools 
>> available for administration of the discussions. For example,
>>
>> https://github.blog/changelog/2021-09-14-notification-emails-for-discussions/
>>
>> is a recent feature. I don't work for GitHub obviously and have nothing to 
>> do with them but the reasons I'm willing to hear about.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:07 PM Matthew Brett  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rohit Goswami  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I guess then the approach overall would evolve to something like using 
>>> > the mailing list to announce discourse posts which need input. Though I 
>>> > would assume that the web interface essentially makes the mailing list 
>>> > almost like discourse, even for new users.
>>> >
>>> > The real issue IMO is still the moderation efforts and additional 
>>> > governance needed for maintaining discourse.
>>>
>>> Yes - that was what I meant.   I do see that mailing lists are harder
>>> to moderate, in that once the email has gone out, it is difficult to
>>> revoke.  So is the argument just that you *can* moderate on Discourse,
>>> therefore you need to think about it more?  Do we have any reason to
>>> think that more moderation will in fact be needed?  We've needed very
>>> little so far on the mailing list, as far as I can see.
>>>
>>> Chers,
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>> ___
>>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- 

[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Robert Kern]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 3:35 AM Andras Deak  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy and
> scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
> while.
>

Given that we've had a literal order of magnitude more messages about the
spam than the spam itself, maybe it's just a blip?

I will suggest that spam management is probably not a strong, much less a
decisive, argument for migrating to a new discussion forum.

-- 
Robert Kern
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Rohit Goswami]

I’m firmly against GH discussions because of the upvoting mechanism. We don’t 
need to be Reddit or SO. .NET had a bad experience with the discussions as well 
[1].

[1] https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore/issues/29935

— Rohit

On 1 Oct 2021, at 15:04, Andras Deak wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:27 PM Ilhan Polat  wrote:
>
>> The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally everybody who
>> is engaged with the code, is familiar with the format, included in the
>> codebase product and has replies in built unlike the Discourse (opinion is
>> mine) useless flat discussion design where replies are all over the place
>> just like the mailing list in case you are not using a tree view supporting
>> client. Hence topic hijacking is one of the main usability difficulties of
>> emails.
>>
>> The goal here is to have a coherent engagement with everyone not just
>> within a small circle, such that there is indeed a discussion happening
>> rather than a few people chiming in. It would be a nice analytics exercise
>> to have how many active users using these lists. I'd say 20-25 max for
>> contribs and team members which is really not much. I know some people are
>> still using IRC and mailing lists but I wouldn't argue that these are the
>> modern media to have proper engaging discussions. "Who said to whom" is the
>> bread and butter of such discussions. And I do think that discourse is
>> exactly the same thing with mailing lists with a slightly better UI while
>> virtually everyone else in the world is doing replies.
>>
>
> (There are probably a lot of users like myself who follow the mailing list
> discussions but rarely feel the need to speak up themselves. Not that this
> says much either way in the discussion, just pointing it out).
>
> I'm not intimately familiar with github discussions (I've only used it a
> few times), but as far as I can tell it only has answers (or "comments")
> and comments (or "replies") on answers, i.e. 2 levels of replies rather
> than a flat single level of replies. If this is indeed the case then I'm
> not sure it's that much better than a flat system, since when things really
> get hairy then 2 levels are probably also insufficient to ensure "who said
> to whom". The "clear replies" argument would hold stronger (in my
> peanut-gallery opinion) for a medium that supports full reply trees like
> many comment sections do on various websites.
>
> András
>
>
>> I would be willing to help with the objections raised since I have been
>> using GH discussions for quite a while now and there are many tools
>> available for administration of the discussions. For example,
>>
>>
>> https://github.blog/changelog/2021-09-14-notification-emails-for-discussions/
>>
>> is a recent feature. I don't work for GitHub obviously and have nothing to
>> do with them but the reasons I'm willing to hear about.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:07 PM Matthew Brett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rohit Goswami 
>>> wrote:

 I guess then the approach overall would evolve to something like using
>>> the mailing list to announce discourse posts which need input. Though I
>>> would assume that the web interface essentially makes the mailing list
>>> almost like discourse, even for new users.

 The real issue IMO is still the moderation efforts and additional
>>> governance needed for maintaining discourse.
>>>
>>> Yes - that was what I meant.   I do see that mailing lists are harder
>>> to moderate, in that once the email has gone out, it is difficult to
>>> revoke.  So is the argument just that you *can* moderate on Discourse,
>>> therefore you need to think about it more?  Do we have any reason to
>>> think that more moderation will in fact be needed?  We've needed very
>>> little so far on the mailing list, as far as I can see.
>>>
>>> Chers,
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>> ___
>>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>>> Member address: ilhanpo...@gmail.com
>>>
>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com
>>

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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Andras Deak]

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:27 PM Ilhan Polat  wrote:

> The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally everybody who
> is engaged with the code, is familiar with the format, included in the
> codebase product and has replies in built unlike the Discourse (opinion is
> mine) useless flat discussion design where replies are all over the place
> just like the mailing list in case you are not using a tree view supporting
> client. Hence topic hijacking is one of the main usability difficulties of
> emails.
>
> The goal here is to have a coherent engagement with everyone not just
> within a small circle, such that there is indeed a discussion happening
> rather than a few people chiming in. It would be a nice analytics exercise
> to have how many active users using these lists. I'd say 20-25 max for
> contribs and team members which is really not much. I know some people are
> still using IRC and mailing lists but I wouldn't argue that these are the
> modern media to have proper engaging discussions. "Who said to whom" is the
> bread and butter of such discussions. And I do think that discourse is
> exactly the same thing with mailing lists with a slightly better UI while
> virtually everyone else in the world is doing replies.
>

(There are probably a lot of users like myself who follow the mailing list
discussions but rarely feel the need to speak up themselves. Not that this
says much either way in the discussion, just pointing it out).

I'm not intimately familiar with github discussions (I've only used it a
few times), but as far as I can tell it only has answers (or "comments")
and comments (or "replies") on answers, i.e. 2 levels of replies rather
than a flat single level of replies. If this is indeed the case then I'm
not sure it's that much better than a flat system, since when things really
get hairy then 2 levels are probably also insufficient to ensure "who said
to whom". The "clear replies" argument would hold stronger (in my
peanut-gallery opinion) for a medium that supports full reply trees like
many comment sections do on various websites.

András


> I would be willing to help with the objections raised since I have been
> using GH discussions for quite a while now and there are many tools
> available for administration of the discussions. For example,
>
>
> https://github.blog/changelog/2021-09-14-notification-emails-for-discussions/
>
> is a recent feature. I don't work for GitHub obviously and have nothing to
> do with them but the reasons I'm willing to hear about.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:07 PM Matthew Brett 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rohit Goswami 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I guess then the approach overall would evolve to something like using
>> the mailing list to announce discourse posts which need input. Though I
>> would assume that the web interface essentially makes the mailing list
>> almost like discourse, even for new users.
>> >
>> > The real issue IMO is still the moderation efforts and additional
>> governance needed for maintaining discourse.
>>
>> Yes - that was what I meant.   I do see that mailing lists are harder
>> to moderate, in that once the email has gone out, it is difficult to
>> revoke.  So is the argument just that you *can* moderate on Discourse,
>> therefore you need to think about it more?  Do we have any reason to
>> think that more moderation will in fact be needed?  We've needed very
>> little so far on the mailing list, as far as I can see.
>>
>> Chers,
>>
>> Matthew
>> ___
>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>> Member address: ilhanpo...@gmail.com
>>
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>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ilhan Polat]

The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally everybody who
is engaged with the code, is familiar with the format, included in the
codebase product and has replies in built unlike the Discourse (opinion is
mine) useless flat discussion design where replies are all over the place
just like the mailing list in case you are not using a tree view supporting
client. Hence topic hijacking is one of the main usability difficulties of
emails.

The goal here is to have a coherent engagement with everyone not just
within a small circle, such that there is indeed a discussion happening
rather than a few people chiming in. It would be a nice analytics exercise
to have how many active users using these lists. I'd say 20-25 max for
contribs and team members which is really not much. I know some people are
still using IRC and mailing lists but I wouldn't argue that these are the
modern media to have proper engaging discussions. "Who said to whom" is the
bread and butter of such discussions. And I do think that discourse is
exactly the same thing with mailing lists with a slightly better UI while
virtually everyone else in the world is doing replies.

I would be willing to help with the objections raised since I have been
using GH discussions for quite a while now and there are many tools
available for administration of the discussions. For example,

https://github.blog/changelog/2021-09-14-notification-emails-for-discussions/

is a recent feature. I don't work for GitHub obviously and have nothing to
do with them but the reasons I'm willing to hear about.






On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:07 PM Matthew Brett 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rohit Goswami 
> wrote:
> >
> > I guess then the approach overall would evolve to something like using
> the mailing list to announce discourse posts which need input. Though I
> would assume that the web interface essentially makes the mailing list
> almost like discourse, even for new users.
> >
> > The real issue IMO is still the moderation efforts and additional
> governance needed for maintaining discourse.
>
> Yes - that was what I meant.   I do see that mailing lists are harder
> to moderate, in that once the email has gone out, it is difficult to
> revoke.  So is the argument just that you *can* moderate on Discourse,
> therefore you need to think about it more?  Do we have any reason to
> think that more moderation will in fact be needed?  We've needed very
> little so far on the mailing list, as far as I can see.
>
> Chers,
>
> Matthew
> ___
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>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Matthew Brett]

Hi,

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rohit Goswami  wrote:
>
> I guess then the approach overall would evolve to something like using the 
> mailing list to announce discourse posts which need input. Though I would 
> assume that the web interface essentially makes the mailing list almost like 
> discourse, even for new users.
>
> The real issue IMO is still the moderation efforts and additional governance 
> needed for maintaining discourse.

Yes - that was what I meant.   I do see that mailing lists are harder
to moderate, in that once the email has gone out, it is difficult to
revoke.  So is the argument just that you *can* moderate on Discourse,
therefore you need to think about it more?  Do we have any reason to
think that more moderation will in fact be needed?  We've needed very
little so far on the mailing list, as far as I can see.

Chers,

Matthew
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Rohit Goswami]

I guess then the approach overall would evolve to something like using the 
mailing list to announce discourse posts which need input. Though I would 
assume that the web interface essentially makes the mailing list almost like 
discourse, even for new users.

The real issue IMO is still the moderation efforts and additional governance 
needed for maintaining discourse.
---
Rohit
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Matthew Brett]

Hi,

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:54 AM Rohit Goswami  wrote:
>
> Although it is true that discourse is easier for newcomers in a lot of ways, 
> it is far worse for governance and consensus. The mailing list, by having 
> essentially sequential topics sent out to all subscribers is easier to keep 
> track of than a large number of forum topics.

Thanks for this - but - could you say more about what you mean here?
In what way is the mailing list less of a problem in terms of
governance and consensus?  Is it just that - it is not easy to
withdraw a mailing list post?   I did have a quick look at the links
you sent - but they seemed to be instances where the community took
the opportunity to formalize a process that was already happening.

I don't agree about it being easier to keep track of topics on a
mailing list. Surely the opposite is true, and one of the main
motivations for Discourse?   I personally use the mailing list option
to read posts in the first instance, but I don't remember feeling the
need to know whether all subscribers have seen a particular post.  In
practice, mailing list mechanics mean that many people skip read their
mail and miss discussions.

Cheers,

Matthew
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Rohit Goswami]

To add to that, while it is redundant to maintain both a mailing list and a 
discourse, the latter requires significantly more moderation and policy (eg. 
What happens if users delete posts / accounts).

It is a non trivial amount of work which I think should not be underestimated. 
A lot of other communities I'm part of have made the shift, but it has been 
undertaken to grow users, not to facilitate mailing list activities.

1. Nix discourse moderation team rfc - -> https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/102
2. Fortran Lang discourse moderation and coc - - > 
https://fortran-lang.discourse.group/t/welcome-to-discourse/7

There are many others but in particular, even if we go for a discourse we 
should still keep the mailing list for low volume, wide reach activity. At 
which point we're back to the original problem of spam.

---
Rohit
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Rohit Goswami]

Although it is true that discourse is easier for newcomers in a lot of ways, it 
is far worse for governance and consensus. The mailing list, by having 
essentially sequential topics sent out to all subscribers is easier to keep 
track of than a large number of forum topics.
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stephan Hoyer]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 7:55 PM Juan Nunez-Iglesias 
wrote:

> On scikit-image, we've moderated *subscriptions*, and only subscribers can
> post without being moderated, but still spam gets through, because it's
> hard to vet whether an email address is "genuine", so sometimes we allow
> the subscription, and immediately receive resulting spam. A "reputation"
> system in which the first, say, 3 emails from a user are moderated would be
> most useful. I don't think mailman provides this yet. (?)
>
> My personal impression is that users/newcomers (as opposed to long-time
> core developers) definitely prefer Discourse to email. I also think it is a
> better experience browsing/searching the archives than mailman, despite
> recent improvements to the latter. So, without wanting to minimise the
> downsides, I do think that putting everyone on Discourse is the best
> approach forward. From what I can tell, none of the mailing lists that have
> made the move (Numba, Bokeh, Matplotlib) have regretted it.
>
> Juan.
>

+1 I do think Discourse would be a significantly better experience for new
users, and would make it easier to get newcomers involved in NumPy. It's
simply a much more accessible tool than mailing lists.


> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021, at 5:11 PM, Matti Picus wrote:
> > On 29/9/21 9:07 pm, Stefan van der Walt wrote:
> >> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 03:02, Ralf Gommers wrote:
> >>> We don't have admin access to the python.org 
> >>> lists, so this is a bit of a problem. We have never had a spam
> >>> problem, so we can ask to block this user first. If it continues to
> >>> happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber emails, but we do
> >>> need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll get them.
> >>>
> >>> A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has
> >>> far better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more
> >>> approachable for people not used to mailing lists (which is most
> >>> newcomers to open source). Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the
> >>> new CZI grant having a focus on improving the contributor experience,
> >>> we should be able to do this.
> >>
> >> I would like to offer the use of https://discuss.scientific-python.org
> >> . I would be happy to handle
> >> email list migration, and have created the following two categories
> >> for NumPy discussion:
> >>
> >> User discussion: https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/user/numpy
> >> 
> >> Contributor discussion:
> >> https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/contributor/numpy
> >> 
> >>
> >> We're happy to support this as part of the Scientific Python ecosystem
> >> grant, and will give admin rights to anyone on the NumPy developer
> >> team who wants to help manage / moderate discussions.
> >>
> >> Of course, we can also just delete these if the team prefers to have
> >> their discussions somewhere else.  But I think there is a benefit to
> >> bringing community discussions together in one place.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Stéfan
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the offer to host the discussions on discourse. Personally, I
> > find the email interface to discourse very clunky. I would prefer we
> > exhaust the possibilities to stay on e-mail only before moving to
> discourse.
> >
> > Matti
> >
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Juan Nunez-Iglesias]

On scikit-image, we've moderated *subscriptions*, and only subscribers can post 
without being moderated, but still spam gets through, because it's hard to vet 
whether an email address is "genuine", so sometimes we allow the subscription, 
and immediately receive resulting spam. A "reputation" system in which the 
first, say, 3 emails from a user are moderated would be most useful. I don't 
think mailman provides this yet. (?)

My personal impression is that users/newcomers (as opposed to long-time core 
developers) definitely prefer Discourse to email. I also think it is a better 
experience browsing/searching the archives than mailman, despite recent 
improvements to the latter. So, without wanting to minimise the downsides, I do 
think that putting everyone on Discourse is the best approach forward. From 
what I can tell, none of the mailing lists that have made the move (Numba, 
Bokeh, Matplotlib) have regretted it.

Juan.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2021, at 5:11 PM, Matti Picus wrote:
> On 29/9/21 9:07 pm, Stefan van der Walt wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 03:02, Ralf Gommers wrote:
>>> We don't have admin access to the python.org  
>>> lists, so this is a bit of a problem. We have never had a spam 
>>> problem, so we can ask to block this user first. If it continues to 
>>> happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber emails, but we do 
>>> need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll get them.
>>>
>>> A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has 
>>> far better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more 
>>> approachable for people not used to mailing lists (which is most 
>>> newcomers to open source). Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the 
>>> new CZI grant having a focus on improving the contributor experience, 
>>> we should be able to do this.
>>
>> I would like to offer the use of https://discuss.scientific-python.org 
>> . I would be happy to handle 
>> email list migration, and have created the following two categories 
>> for NumPy discussion:
>>
>> User discussion: https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/user/numpy 
>> 
>> Contributor discussion: 
>> https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/contributor/numpy 
>> 
>>
>> We're happy to support this as part of the Scientific Python ecosystem 
>> grant, and will give admin rights to anyone on the NumPy developer 
>> team who wants to help manage / moderate discussions.
>>
>> Of course, we can also just delete these if the team prefers to have 
>> their discussions somewhere else.  But I think there is a benefit to 
>> bringing community discussions together in one place.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Stéfan
>
>
> Thanks for the offer to host the discussions on discourse. Personally, I 
> find the email interface to discourse very clunky. I would prefer we 
> exhaust the possibilities to stay on e-mail only before moving to discourse.
>
> Matti
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Matti Picus]

On 29/9/21 9:07 pm, Stefan van der Walt wrote:

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 03:02, Ralf Gommers wrote:
We don't have admin access to the python.org  
lists, so this is a bit of a problem. We have never had a spam 
problem, so we can ask to block this user first. If it continues to 
happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber emails, but we do 
need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll get them.


A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has 
far better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more 
approachable for people not used to mailing lists (which is most 
newcomers to open source). Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the 
new CZI grant having a focus on improving the contributor experience, 
we should be able to do this.


I would like to offer the use of https://discuss.scientific-python.org 
. I would be happy to handle 
email list migration, and have created the following two categories 
for NumPy discussion:


User discussion: https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/user/numpy 

Contributor discussion: 
https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/contributor/numpy 



We're happy to support this as part of the Scientific Python ecosystem 
grant, and will give admin rights to anyone on the NumPy developer 
team who wants to help manage / moderate discussions.


Of course, we can also just delete these if the team prefers to have 
their discussions somewhere else.  But I think there is a benefit to 
bringing community discussions together in one place.


Best regards,
Stéfan



Thanks for the offer to host the discussions on discourse. Personally, I 
find the email interface to discourse very clunky. I would prefer we 
exhaust the possibilities to stay on e-mail only before moving to discourse.


Matti

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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stefan van der Walt]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 14:39, Ralf Gommers wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:32 PM Stefan van der Walt  
> wrote:
>> __
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 13:58, Ralf Gommers wrote:
>>> This was discussed in the community meeting today. No one was really 
>>> enthusiastic, concerns that were brought up included the lack of an email 
>>> interface, and an unclear boundary between issues and discussions.
>> 
>> FWIW, Discourse has an email interface.  I'm not sure what is meant by 
>> "unclear boundary between issues and discussions"—that is not something our 
>> mailing list provides either.
> 
> That was specifically about GitHub Issues vs. GitHub Discussions. It's often 
> not clear if something is a bug or not, so moving items between those two 
> tabs can get confusing quickly. It wasn't my remark, but in the one case 
> where I tried out Discussions my experience was indeed the same - visitors to 
> the repo don't quite know which one to use.

Ah, yes, that makes sense.  This will hopefully not be an issue for a dedicated 
forum then.

Stéfan
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ralf Gommers]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:32 PM Stefan van der Walt 
wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 13:58, Ralf Gommers wrote:
>
> This was discussed in the community meeting today. No one was really
> enthusiastic, concerns that were brought up included the lack of an email
> interface, and an unclear boundary between issues and discussions.
>
>
> FWIW, Discourse has an email interface.  I'm not sure what is meant by
> "unclear boundary between issues and discussions"—that is not something our
> mailing list provides either.
>

That was specifically about GitHub Issues vs. GitHub Discussions. It's
often not clear if something is a bug or not, so moving items between those
two tabs can get confusing quickly. It wasn't my remark, but in the one
case where I tried out Discussions my experience was indeed the same -
visitors to the repo don't quite know which one to use.

Cheers,
Ralf



> If we move, importing the mailing list archives will clearly be important
> though, any replacement should be able to do this.
>
>
> python.org allows us to download an mbox backup of numpy-discussion, and
> this archive can be imported into discourse.  I'd be happy to do so as a
> proof of concept, if that would be helpful.
>
> Stéfan
>
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stefan van der Walt]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 13:58, Ralf Gommers wrote:
> This was discussed in the community meeting today. No one was really 
> enthusiastic, concerns that were brought up included the lack of an email 
> interface, and an unclear boundary between issues and discussions.

FWIW, Discourse has an email interface.  I'm not sure what is meant by "unclear 
boundary between issues and discussions"—that is not something our mailing list 
provides either.

> If we move, importing the mailing list archives will clearly be important 
> though, any replacement should be able to do this.

python.org allows us to download an mbox backup of numpy-discussion, and this 
archive can be imported into discourse.  I'd be happy to do so as a proof of 
concept, if that would be helpful.

Stéfan
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ralf Gommers]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:51 PM Ilhan Polat  wrote:

> I'd like to reheat the proposition that we enable discussion feature on
> GitHub for the repos. Not only this makes things a bit more streamlined
> (transfer nonbug reports to discussions to handle noise there) but also
> makes it easier to control the discussions. Moreover since it is GitHub
> there are API-based ways to import mailing lists for NumPy and SciPy with a
> bit less effort.
>

This was discussed in the community meeting today. No one was really
enthusiastic, concerns that were brought up included the lack of an email
interface, and an unclear boundary between issues and discussions.

If we move, importing the mailing list archives will clearly be important
though, any replacement should be able to do this.

Cheers,
Ralf
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Stefan van der Walt]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, at 03:02, Ralf Gommers wrote:
> We don't have admin access to the python.org lists, so this is a bit of a 
> problem. We have never had a spam problem, so we can ask to block this user 
> first. If it continues to happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber 
> emails, but we do need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll 
> get them.
> 
> A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has far better 
> moderation tools than Mailman and is also more approachable for people not 
> used to mailing lists (which is most newcomers to open source). Migrating is 
> a bit of a pain, but with the new CZI grant having a focus on improving the 
> contributor experience, we should be able to do this.

I would like to offer the use of https://discuss.scientific-python.org.  I 
would be happy to handle email list migration, and have created the following 
two categories for NumPy discussion:

User discussion: https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/user/numpy 

Contributor discussion: 
https://discuss.scientific-python.org/c/contributor/numpy 


We're happy to support this as part of the Scientific Python ecosystem grant, 
and will give admin rights to anyone on the NumPy developer team who wants to 
help manage / moderate discussions.

Of course, we can also just delete these if the team prefers to have their 
discussions somewhere else.  But I think there is a benefit to bringing 
community discussions together in one place.

Best regards,
Stéfan
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Roman Yurchak]

Yes, there is also lots of such spam on other @python.org mailing lists 
lately.


I sent a message to postmaster / python.org about it earlier today. Will 
get back once there is a response.


--
Roman

On 29/09/2021 11:28, Andras Deak wrote:
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers > wrote:




On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak mailto:deak.and...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi All,

Today both of the python.org  mailing lists
I'm subscribed to (numpy and scipy-dev) got the same kind of
link shortener spam. I assume all the mailing lists started
getting these, and that these won't go away for a while.


I don't see these on
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/
, nor
did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it
in the archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?


Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest 
thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/ 



András

Ralf


Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails
from new list members? Assuming the engine even supports that.
There aren't many emails, especially from new members, and I
can't think of other ways that ensure no false positives in
filtering.

Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate
such emails if needed.
Cheers,

András
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ilhan Polat]

I'd like to reheat the proposition that we enable discussion feature on
GitHub for the repos. Not only this makes things a bit more streamlined
(transfer nonbug reports to discussions to handle noise there) but also
makes it easier to control the discussions. Moreover since it is GitHub
there are API-based ways to import mailing lists for NumPy and SciPy with a
bit less effort.

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:11 PM Andras Deak  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:02 PM Ralf Gommers 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:33 AM Andras Deak 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:28 AM Andras Deak 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers 
 wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy
>> and scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
>> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
>> while.
>>
>
> I don't see these on
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/,
> nor did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in
> the archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?
>

 Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest
 thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of
 https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/

>>>
>>> Found the permalink: (warning, spam link there)
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/message/MWI6AKF4QNQ45532MVA3XOXYW5GDFL6O/
>>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>
>> Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from
>> new list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't 
>> many
>> emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
>> ensure no false positives in filtering.
>>
>
>> We don't have admin access to the python.org lists, so this is a bit of
>> a problem. We have never had a spam problem, so we can ask to block this
>> user first. If it continues to happen, we may be able to moderate new
>> subscriber emails, but we do need to ask for permissions first and I'm not
>> sure we'll get them.
>>
>
> Unfortunately (but unsurprisingly) there are multiple accounts doing this
> https://mail.python.org/archives/search?q=bit.ly=1=date-desc
> This is why I figured that an _a posteriori_ whack-a-mole against these
> specific users might not be a feasible solution to the underlying problem.
>
> András
>
>
>
>> A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has far
>> better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more approachable for
>> people not used to mailing lists (which is most newcomers to open source).
>> Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the new CZI grant having a focus on
>> improving the contributor experience, we should be able to do this.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ralf
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>> Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such
>> emails if needed.
>> Cheers,
>>
>> András
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>>
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 ___
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>>>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Andras Deak]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 12:02 PM Ralf Gommers 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:33 AM Andras Deak 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:28 AM Andras Deak 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak 
 wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy
> and scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
> while.
>

 I don't see these on
 https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/,
 nor did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in
 the archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?

>>>
>>> Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest
>>> thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/
>>>
>>
>> Found the permalink: (warning, spam link there)
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/message/MWI6AKF4QNQ45532MVA3XOXYW5GDFL6O/
>>
>
> Thanks!
>
>

> Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new
> list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many
> emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
> ensure no false positives in filtering.
>

> We don't have admin access to the python.org lists, so this is a bit of a
> problem. We have never had a spam problem, so we can ask to block this user
> first. If it continues to happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber
> emails, but we do need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll
> get them.
>

Unfortunately (but unsurprisingly) there are multiple accounts doing this
https://mail.python.org/archives/search?q=bit.ly=1=date-desc
This is why I figured that an _a posteriori_ whack-a-mole against these
specific users might not be a feasible solution to the underlying problem.

András



> A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has far
> better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more approachable for
> people not used to mailing lists (which is most newcomers to open source).
> Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the new CZI grant having a focus on
> improving the contributor experience, we should be able to do this.
>
> Cheers,
> Ralf
>
>
>
>>
> Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such
> emails if needed.
> Cheers,
>
> András
> ___
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> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>
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 https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
 Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com

>>> ___
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>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>>
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>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ralf Gommers]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:33 AM Andras Deak  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:28 AM Andras Deak 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi All,

 Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy
 and scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
 mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
 while.

>>>
>>> I don't see these on
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/, nor
>>> did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in the
>>> archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?
>>>
>>
>> Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest
>> thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/
>>
>
> Found the permalink: (warning, spam link there)
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/message/MWI6AKF4QNQ45532MVA3XOXYW5GDFL6O/
>

Thanks!


>>>
 Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new
 list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many
 emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
 ensure no false positives in filtering.

>>>
We don't have admin access to the python.org lists, so this is a bit of a
problem. We have never had a spam problem, so we can ask to block this user
first. If it continues to happen, we may be able to moderate new subscriber
emails, but we do need to ask for permissions first and I'm not sure we'll
get them.

A better solution longer term is migrating to Discourse, which has far
better moderation tools than Mailman and is also more approachable for
people not used to mailing lists (which is most newcomers to open source).
Migrating is a bit of a pain, but with the new CZI grant having a focus on
improving the contributor experience, we should be able to do this.

Cheers,
Ralf



>
 Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such
 emails if needed.
 Cheers,

 András
 ___
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 https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
 Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com

>>> ___
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>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>>> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com
>>>
>> ___
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> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Andras Deak]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Ralf Gommers 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy and
>> scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
>> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
>> while.
>>
>
> I don't see these on
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/, nor
> did I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in the
> archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?
>

Sorry for not being specific: they were sent as replies to the latest
thread on each list, see e.g. at the bottom (6th email, 5th reply) of
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/thread/BLCIC2WMJQ5VT6HJSUW4V5TNGQ36JQXI/

András



> Ralf
>
>
>> Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new
>> list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many
>> emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
>> ensure no false positives in filtering.
>>
>> Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such
>> emails if needed.
>> Cheers,
>>
>> András
>> ___
>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
>> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>>
> ___
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com
>
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[Numpy-discussion] Re: spam on the mailing lists

[Ralf Gommers]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:32 AM Andras Deak  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Today both of the python.org mailing lists I'm subscribed to (numpy and
> scipy-dev) got the same kind of link shortener spam. I assume all the
> mailing lists started getting these, and that these won't go away for a
> while.
>

I don't see these on
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/numpy-discussion@python.org/, nor did
I receive them (and I did check my spam folder). Do you see it in the
archive, or do you understand why you do receive them?

Ralf


> Is there any way to prevent these, short of moderating emails from new
> list members? Assuming the engine even supports that. There aren't many
> emails, especially from new members, and I can't think of other ways that
> ensure no false positives in filtering.
>
> Since maintainer time is precious, I can volunteer to moderate such emails
> if needed.
> Cheers,
>
> András
> ___
> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/
> Member address: ralf.gomm...@gmail.com
>
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