RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
John- Just got back from a vacation and saw this... Our jr DBA is in the process of doing this. Care to share your code??? Thanks, Ron Thomas Hypercom, Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Each new user of a new system uncovers a new class of bugs. -- Kernighan [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic .com 10/08/2003 02:04 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Raj (and all who use Oracle's Trace analyzer, I 'converted' the trace analzyer tables to GTTs, and no longer had the space issues with large trace files. This is because the data is stored 'temporarily' and is used for reporting in a subsequent SQL in the same session stream, and not reused elsewhere. Haven't really measured performance improvement, but this should ride on all the advantages that GTT provides. FWIW! John Kanagaraj DB Soft Inc Phone: 408-970-7002 (W) Disappointment is inevitable, but Discouragement is optional! ** The opinions and facts contained in this message are entirely mine and do not reflect those of my employer or customers ** -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Thanks, I have been using that tool for a long time now, it needs a big tablespace (cause everything is loaded in tables) and puts a load on the server. It is good for smaller files, but takes too long on larger files. Nevertheless it is a great utility. Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L go to metalink and check out trace analyzer. ITs a new tool for analyzing 10046 traces. Has ALOT more detail than tkprof. Major improvement. Its on metalink. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ron Thomas INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Ron, It is really simple - Just recreate the *larger* TRCA tables to use GTT as shown below: CREATE GLOBAL TEMPORARY TABLE trca$trace ( trace_id NUMBER, trace_filename VARCHAR2(64), trace_size NUMBER, trca_date DATE, parsed_percent NUMBER, host_name VARCHAR2(64), platform VARCHAR2(40), rdbms_release VARCHAR2(17), instance_name VARCHAR2(16), same_instance VARCHAR2(13), tim_factor NUMBER, start_date VARCHAR2(23), trace_date DATE, start_tim NUMBER, completion_tim NUMBER, duration_secs NUMBER, total_gaps NUMBER, total_cNUMBER, total_eNUMBER, wait_non_idle NUMBER, wait_idle NUMBER, truncated VARCHAR2(9), num_lines NUMBER, cursors_sysNUMBER, cursors_user NUMBER, unique_sql_sys NUMBER, unique_sql_userNUMBER ) ON COMMIT PRESERVE ROWS; CREATE GLOBAL TEMPORARY TABLE trca$parsing_in_cursor ( trace_id NUMBER, line_idNUMBER, cursor_# NUMBER, cursor_id NUMBER, lenNUMBER, depNUMBER, uid$ NUMBER, octNUMBER, lidNUMBER, timNUMBER, hv NUMBER, ad VARCHAR2(32), errNUMBER ) ON COMMIT PRESERVE ROWS; Etc... John Kanagaraj DB Soft Inc Phone: 408-970-7002 (W) Listen to great, commercial-free christian music 24x7x365 at http://www.klove.com ** The opinions and facts contained in this message are entirely mine and do not reflect those of my employer or customers ** -Original Message- From: Ron Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 11:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic John- Just got back from a vacation and saw this... Our jr DBA is in the process of doing this. Care to share your code??? Thanks, Ron Thomas Hypercom, Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Each new user of a new system uncovers a new class of bugs. -- Kernighan [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic .com 10/08/2003 02:04 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Raj (and all who use Oracle's Trace analyzer, I 'converted' the trace analzyer tables to GTTs, and no longer had the space issues with large trace files. This is because the data is stored 'temporarily' and is used for reporting in a subsequent SQL in the same session stream, and not reused elsewhere. Haven't really measured performance improvement, but this should ride on all the advantages that GTT provides
Re: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Connor, you're the best! On 2003.10.08 21:09, Connor McDonald wrote: Cary, you're intention is good, but you need to take the more effective (Dirty Harry) approach: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Maybe I can make it fast, maybe I can't. You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky today? Well do ya punk? (at which point out comes the invoice...) :-) --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. From: Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/07 Tue PM 02:59:55 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). = Connor
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Title: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic This comment coming from Mladen means something ... Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- From: Mladen Gogala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 7:59 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Connor, you're the best! **This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.**5
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
But what !? Wedding bells? Mike -Original Message- Sent: 09 October 2003 12:59 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L This comment coming from Mladen means something ... Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 7:59 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Connor, you're the best! 5 E mail Disclaimer You agree that you have read and understood this disclaimer and you agree to be bound by its terms. The information contained in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it (if any) are confidential and intended for the addressee only. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the originator. This e-mail and any attachments have been scanned for certain viruses prior to sending but CE Electric UK Funding Company nor any of its associated companies from whom this e-mail originates shall be liable for any losses as a result of any viruses being passed on. No warranty of any kind is given in respect of any information contained in this e-mail and you should be aware that that it might be incomplete, out of date or incorrect. It is therefore essential that you verify all such information with us before placing any reliance upon it. CE Electric UK Funding Company Lloyds Court 78 Grey Street Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 6AF Registered in England and Wales: Number 3476201 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Hately, Mike (LogicaCMG) INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Re[2]: Cary's Book - new topic
Perhaps a flashback query would help??? -Original Message- Wolfgang Breitling Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:55 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Unfortunately it's not my ability to see into the future, but an inability to see all of the past. Now what was that I was looking for? At 03:34 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Wolfgang, Tuesday, October 7, 2003, 2:04:24 PM, you wrote: W A totally different point: How come I see your response before I W see my own post? Sounds like you can see into the future. Would you mind reading the Wall Street journal and reporting back to us? -rje Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Grabowy, Chris INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
You point out something that I've found most developers/DBAs don't do... actually sit with the end user to see what the problem is. This happens at the design end as well. I have seen way too many user friendly applications that aren't, because the programmer wrote it for someone at his/her technical level and not for the clerk who actually uses it. I'm STILL fighting with one development team who wrote a search screen, with ONE box for data entry and did not have the cursor sit in the box. One extra mouse click for the end user. Every time they search. --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. From: Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/07 Tue PM 02:59:55 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
2 of the projects Ive been on I have not had any contact with clients. I wasnt even allowed to speak to them. It all had to go through product managers, or the prime contractor. Its nice when your able to speak to your customer, but sometimes your not allowed to. Ive been attacked by the prime contractor with 'Why do you need to talk to the customer, I told you what to do?' That kind of environment is not uncommon. Unfortunately its also necessary, alot of technical people dont speak well and you really dont want them to get anywhere near a client. Especially if they are just sub-contractors. I found the paranoia level to be especially high on US government projects. From: Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/08 Wed AM 07:59:24 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic You point out something that I've found most developers/DBAs don't do... actually sit with the end user to see what the problem is. This happens at the design end as well. I have seen way too many user friendly applications that aren't, because the programmer wrote it for someone at his/her technical level and not for the clerk who actually uses it. I'm STILL fighting with one development team who wrote a search screen, with ONE box for data entry and did not have the cursor sit in the box. One extra mouse click for the end user. Every time they search. --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. From: Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/07 Tue PM 02:59:55 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Title: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Cary, We are doing exactly that on one of our databases. After hearing _few_complaints that DB is slow (code is not), we enabled trace at level 12 for power users. Now every AM my job is to analyze 20+ trace files that I get and report back. Once we see a pattern, we will hand it over to Development team and then work with them to resolve the issues. Now only if I could find a version of TKPROF that works with 2GB+ trace files .. Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.*2
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
go to metalink and check out trace analyzer. ITs a new tool for analyzing 10046 traces. Has ALOT more detail than tkprof. Major improvement. Its on metalink. From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/08 Wed AM 09:14:25 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Cary, We are doing exactly that on one of our databases. After hearing _few_complaints that DB is slow (code is not), we enabled trace at level 12 for power users. Now every AM my job is to analyze 20+ trace files that I get and report back. Once we see a pattern, we will hand it over to Development team and then work with them to resolve the issues. Now only if I could find a version of TKPROF that works with 2GB+ trace files .. Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.*2 Title: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Cary, We are doing exactly that on one of our databases. After hearing _few_complaints that DB is slow (code is not), we enabled trace at level 12 for power users. Now every AM my job is to analyze 20+ trace files that I get and report back. Once we see a pattern, we will hand it over to Development team and then work with them to resolve the issues. Now only if I could find a version of TKPROF that works with 2GB+ trace files .. Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Title: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Or you can look into getting the Hotsos Profiler It would definitely be money well spent! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 8:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic go to metalink and check out trace analyzer. ITs a new tool for analyzing 10046 traces. Has ALOT more detail than tkprof. Major improvement. Its on metalink. From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/08 Wed AM 09:14:25 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Cary, We are doing exactly that on one of our databases. After hearing _few_complaints that DB is slow (code is not), we enabled trace at level 12 for power users. Now every AM my job is to analyze 20+ trace files that I get and report back. Once we see a pattern, we will hand it over to Development team and then work with them to resolve the issues. Now only if I could find a version of TKPROF that works with 2GB+ trace files .. Raj -- -- Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap Th is e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.** ***2
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Title: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Thanks, I have been using that tool for a long time now, it needs a big tablespace (cause everything is loaded in tables) and puts a load on the server. It is good for smaller files, but takes too long on larger files. Nevertheless it is a great utility. Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic go to metalink and check out trace analyzer. ITs a new tool for analyzing 10046 traces. Has ALOT more detail than tkprof. Major improvement. Its on metalink.
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
I agree that it's common. But it's probably provably correct to say that these sites cannot reach a targeted performance level as quickly or as cheaply as if they would if they removed the constraint. I know it's a slow, uphill battle. Getting ammunition together to fight this battle is one of the motives I had for writing the book. I believe that an idea with a real book behind it is a lot more likely to have weight in a bureaucracy than an idea without a book behind it. For some reason, a book is like a necktie for ideas. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L 2 of the projects Ive been on I have not had any contact with clients. I wasnt even allowed to speak to them. It all had to go through product managers, or the prime contractor. Its nice when your able to speak to your customer, but sometimes your not allowed to. Ive been attacked by the prime contractor with 'Why do you need to talk to the customer, I told you what to do?' That kind of environment is not uncommon. Unfortunately its also necessary, alot of technical people dont speak well and you really dont want them to get anywhere near a client. Especially if they are just sub-contractors. I found the paranoia level to be especially high on US government projects. From: Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/08 Wed AM 07:59:24 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic You point out something that I've found most developers/DBAs don't do... actually sit with the end user to see what the problem is. This happens at the design end as well. I have seen way too many user friendly applications that aren't, because the programmer wrote it for someone at his/her technical level and not for the clerk who actually uses it. I'm STILL fighting with one development team who wrote a search screen, with ONE box for data entry and did not have the cursor sit in the box. One extra mouse click for the end user. Every time they search. --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. From: Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/07 Tue PM 02:59:55 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
the goal of government maintenance projects is not to get anything done. its to keep the contract going and keep the revenues coming in. people dont want to work themselves out of a job. I think its one of the reasons people over do the CMM stuff. They can look good with their processes, get money, and pro-long the life of the contract due to the extra red tape. From: Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/08 Wed AM 11:24:25 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic I agree that it's common. But it's probably provably correct to say that these sites cannot reach a targeted performance level as quickly or as cheaply as if they would if they removed the constraint. I know it's a slow, uphill battle. Getting ammunition together to fight this battle is one of the motives I had for writing the book. I believe that an idea with a real book behind it is a lot more likely to have weight in a bureaucracy than an idea without a book behind it. For some reason, a book is like a necktie for ideas. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L 2 of the projects Ive been on I have not had any contact with clients. I wasnt even allowed to speak to them. It all had to go through product managers, or the prime contractor. Its nice when your able to speak to your customer, but sometimes your not allowed to. Ive been attacked by the prime contractor with 'Why do you need to talk to the customer, I told you what to do?' That kind of environment is not uncommon. Unfortunately its also necessary, alot of technical people dont speak well and you really dont want them to get anywhere near a client. Especially if they are just sub-contractors. I found the paranoia level to be especially high on US government projects. From: Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/08 Wed AM 07:59:24 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic You point out something that I've found most developers/DBAs don't do... actually sit with the end user to see what the problem is. This happens at the design end as well. I have seen way too many user friendly applications that aren't, because the programmer wrote it for someone at his/her technical level and not for the clerk who actually uses it. I'm STILL fighting with one development team who wrote a search screen, with ONE box for data entry and did not have the cursor sit in the box. One extra mouse click for the end user. Every time they search. --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. From: Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/07 Tue PM 02:59:55 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Title: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Hotsos Profiler will handle it, no problem. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 710 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jamadagni, Rajendra Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 8:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Cary, We are doing exactly that on one of our databases. After hearing _few_complaints that DB is slow (code is not), we enabled trace at level 12 for power users. Now every AM my job is to analyze 20+ trace files that I get and report back. Once we see a pattern, we will hand it over to Development team and then work with them to resolve the issues. Now only if I could find a version of TKPROF that works with 2GB+ trace files .. Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Title: Message Raj (and all who use Oracle's Trace analyzer, I 'converted' the trace analzyer tables to GTTs, and no longer had the space issues with large trace files. This is because the data is stored 'temporarily' and is used for reporting in a subsequent SQL in the same session stream, and not reused elsewhere. Haven't really measured performance improvement, but this should ride on all the advantages that GTT provides. FWIW! John KanagarajDB Soft IncPhone: 408-970-7002 (W)Disappointment is inevitable, but Discouragement is optional!** The opinions and facts contained in this message are entirely mine and do not reflect those of my employer or customers ** -Original Message-From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:19 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Thanks, I have been using that tool for a long time now, it needs a big tablespace (cause everything is loaded in tables) and puts a load on the server. It is good for smaller files, but takes too long on larger files. Nevertheless it is a great utility. Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic go to metalink and check out trace analyzer. ITs a new tool for analyzing 10046 traces. Has ALOT more detail than tkprof. Major improvement. Its on metalink.
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Title: Message God that you mentioned ... I am doing the same thing ... changing the code. Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message-From: John Kanagaraj [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 4:04 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Raj (and all who use Oracle's Trace analyzer, I 'converted' the trace analzyer tables to GTTs, and no longer had the space issues with large trace files. This is because the data is stored 'temporarily' and is used for reporting in a subsequent SQL in the same session stream, and not reused elsewhere. Haven't really measured performance improvement, but this should ride on all the advantages that GTT provides. FWIW! John KanagarajDB Soft IncPhone: 408-970-7002 (W)Disappointment is inevitable, but Discouragement is optional!** The opinions and facts contained in this message are entirely mine and do not reflect those of my employer or customers ** -Original Message-From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:19 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Thanks, I have been using that tool for a long time now, it needs a big tablespace (cause everything is loaded in tables) and puts a load on the server. It is good for smaller files, but takes too long on larger files. Nevertheless it is a great utility. Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic go to metalink and check out trace analyzer. ITs a new tool for analyzing 10046 traces. Has ALOT more detail than tkprof. Major improvement. Its on metalink. **This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.**5
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Cary, you're intention is good, but you need to take the more effective (Dirty Harry) approach: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Maybe I can make it fast, maybe I can't. You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky today? Well do ya punk? (at which point out comes the invoice...) :-) --- Cary Millsap [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. From: Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/07 Tue PM 02:59:55 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). = Connor McDonald web: http
Cary's Book - new topic
I've got Cary's book for about a week now and I have a comment. On page 12 he defines response time as The elapsed time between the end of an inquiry or demand on a computer system and the beginning of a response; for example, the length of the time between an indication of the end of an inquiry and the display of the first character of the response at a user terminal. I know from the reference provided that he did not create that definition himself. Do you agree with it? I don't. I believe that it depends and that there are cases where the user would define response time as the time from initiating the request until the entire transaction is complete, especially if subsequent work is dependent on the completion. You can easily play the evil genie in these cases by improving the response time such that the first character shows up sooner, yet the last character shows up much later (in the vein of first_rows vs. all_rows), effectively making things worse for the user. So even the definition of response time comes back to the business case. Sometimes the user can continue with the next task as soon as the first pieces of the request arrive, while at other times she can not until the last pieces are complete. Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's Book - new topic
So to define response time you must first define response? For acceptance criteria I guess the user has to be specific about what a response is, e.g., when a web app returns a database large result set to a web page, if you have to wait until they entire result set is transmitted to the client the response time would appear to be slower than if you just displayed the rows as they were transmitted. Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I've got Cary's book for about a week now and I have a comment. On page 12 he defines response time as The elapsed time between the end of an inquiry or demand on a computer system and the beginning of a response; for example, the length of the time between an indication of the end of an inquiry and the display of the first character of the response at a user terminal. I know from the reference provided that he did not create that definition himself. Do you agree with it? I don't. I believe that it depends and that there are cases where the user would define response time as the time from initiating the request until the entire transaction is complete, especially if subsequent work is dependent on the completion. You can easily play the evil genie in these cases by improving the response time such that the first character shows up sooner, yet the last character shows up much later (in the vein of first_rows vs. all_rows), effectively making things worse for the user. So even the definition of response time comes back to the business case. Sometimes the user can continue with the next task as soon as the first pieces of the request arrive, while at other times she can not until the last pieces are complete. Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's Book - new topic
A totally different point: How come I see your response before I see my own post? At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Now that the response quality was mentioned, the intimately related topic is the quality of the application itself. I frequently indulge myself into observing things like usability: - Are buttons in the applications created naturally, easy to press and with good logical explanations? - Are fields following each other naturally and does the operator have to use mouse navigation frequently, thus taking fingers off the keyboard? Are there unnecessary sights and sounds (picturess, beeps, music, animations) which would unnecessarily burden the LAN? - Are fonts readable and pleasant to work with or is the effect of an hour in forn the application an equivalent to the punch in the head? - Are scrolling lists searchable and are they big? Do they take long time to populate? - Are colors bright and annoying or not? - What is the overall impression of the screen? My experience tells me that, when it comes to the perception, all of the above plays certain role. People tend to be much less satisfied with annoying and ugly applications and can frequently claim that they're slow. It's not just performance, it's the quality of the application, as well. What Cary's book pointed out and what I objected to is the fact that a DBA (in contrast to Cary, I see that role being identical to the one of a senior DBA) must be a politician as well as an expert with databases and operating systems. On the other hand, if Arnold can do it, why not me? Hasta la vista, baby. On Tue, 2003-10-07 at 14:59, Wolfgang Breitling wrote: Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. From: Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/07 Tue PM 02:59:55 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's Book - new topic
On Tue, 2003-10-07 at 14:39, Orr, Steve wrote: So to define response time you must first define response? Response time is best illustrated in the Man in Black movie, when agent Kay tells to agent Jay not to ever press that button (scene in the car). That response time was probably tuned by Hotsos. -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Title: RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic we do. We aren't 24x7, but we are 5 am Monday through 6 pm Saturday with a 48 hour permissible window IF we declare an emergency and give them 30 days notice if we are going to be down outside of the regular hours (i.e. upgrades... ) April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: RE: Cary's Book - new topic how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. From: Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/07 Tue PM 02:59:55 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
Re: Cary's Book - new topic
I've been working on websites for the last few years. The working definition I use as response time is the time between when the user initiates the action (mouse click, hitting enter) and the time the user can USE the information being returned. This means that sending back the first few characters doesn't qualify as completing the response. if I am in an ecommerce site and I click on the item I want to see in detail, it doesn't help me to have the name of the product but no other information on the screen. Excessive response time is the time between the mouse click and the user hitting the back arrow or closing the browser or clicking on the submit button again because they have become impatient with what they see as no response at all. --- Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got Cary's book for about a week now and I have a comment. On page 12 he defines response time as The elapsed time between the end of an inquiry or demand on a computer system and the beginning of a response; for example, the length of the time between an indication of the end of an inquiry and the display of the first character of the response at a user terminal. I know from the reference provided that he did not create that definition himself. Do you agree with it? I don't. I believe that it depends and that there are cases where the user would define response time as the time from initiating the request until the entire transaction is complete, especially if subsequent work is dependent on the completion. You can easily play the evil genie in these cases by improving the response time such that the first character shows up sooner, yet the last character shows up much later (in the vein of first_rows vs. all_rows), effectively making things worse for the user. So even the definition of response time comes back to the business case. Sometimes the user can continue with the next task as soon as the first pieces of the request arrive, while at other times she can not until the last pieces are complete. Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Yep, sounds familiar. So there you have your biggest hurdle for the performance project: getting the business to set measurable targets and prioritize the tasks that need attention. How do you Work first to reduce the biggest response time component of a business' most important user action. if the business can not agree on what that is? I once tried to explain to the CIO that I need measurable goals for a performance project (it wasn't a formal project, rather one of those 'make it faster - now' things) and she replied fewer knocks on my door by the CFO. Of course Cary's evil genie would do the optimization by relocating one of the two such that their offices wouldn't be adjacent anymore. At 01:24 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's Book - new topic
I'm using Method R to post. On Tue, 2003-10-07 at 15:04, Wolfgang Breitling wrote: A totally different point: How come I see your response before I see my own post? At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's Book - new topic
It's called optimization. Do you really need to see your post? -:) Igor Neyman, OCP DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Wolfgang Breitling Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L A totally different point: How come I see your response before I see my own post? At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Igor Neyman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re[2]: Cary's Book - new topic
Wolfgang, Tuesday, October 7, 2003, 2:04:24 PM, you wrote: W A totally different point: How come I see your response before I W see my own post? Sounds like you can see into the future. Would you mind reading the Wall Street journal and reporting back to us? -rje -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Robert Eskridge INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's Book - new topic
ROTFLMAO RF -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/7/2003 4:24 PM I'm using Method R to post. On Tue, 2003-10-07 at 15:04, Wolfgang Breitling wrote: A totally different point: How come I see your response before I see my own post? At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Freeman Robert - IL INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re[2]: Cary's Book - new topic
Unfortunately it's not my ability to see into the future, but an inability to see all of the past. Now what was that I was looking for? At 03:34 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Wolfgang, Tuesday, October 7, 2003, 2:04:24 PM, you wrote: W A totally different point: How come I see your response before I W see my own post? Sounds like you can see into the future. Would you mind reading the Wall Street journal and reporting back to us? -rje Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's Book - new topic
Actually, something must be wrong with my feed. There are several gaps in the messages judging from the quoted original, which I never saw, in a response. At 03:24 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: I'm using Method R to post. On Tue, 2003-10-07 at 15:04, Wolfgang Breitling wrote: A totally different point: How come I see your response before I see my own post? At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Re[2]: Cary's Book - new topic
And Jared yells at ME for going Off topic!!! :-D RF -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/7/2003 4:54 PM Unfortunately it's not my ability to see into the future, but an inability to see all of the past. Now what was that I was looking for? At 03:34 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Wolfgang, Tuesday, October 7, 2003, 2:04:24 PM, you wrote: W A totally different point: How come I see your response before I W see my own post? Sounds like you can see into the future. Would you mind reading the Wall Street journal and reporting back to us? -rje Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Freeman Robert - IL INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: Cary's Book - new topic
These are the BEST projects to be on. You took a different path than I would have at the second Me line. I would shoot for: Customer: It's Slow Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Show me. Customer: Okay, come see. Then your job becomes to get a 10046/12 trace on what you're watching. From there, it's all downhill. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L how many projects actually have SLAs? Ive been on 5 projects and none of them have had them. Its always been. Customer: 'It's Slow' Me: What is? Customer: The application. Make it fast. Me: Define fast. Customer: As fast as possible. Do it now. From: Wolfgang Breitling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/07 Tue PM 02:59:55 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's Book - new topic Good point. I suppose this gets into the realm of perceived response time. Some applications break long transactions into several user interactions to hide the real response time. The application still makes its SLA defined as 90% of transactions complete in 3 seconds while the real transaction takes a lot longer. However, the user is kept busy and you get into that perception thing. I know that if I see a traffic jam, I look for ways to detour around it. Even it I don't save any time (there is no way of telling really), I have at least the impression that I'm doing something, that I'm in charge, rather sitting passively in the jam crawling along, waiting for something the clear up. At 12:39 PM 10/7/2003, you wrote: Also, if we are to really address the business case as you suggest then the definition should also include the quality of the response. If the response is quick but incomplete and the user has to ask 10 questions to get at the one real answer he's after then what good is a fast response time? -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Wolfgang Breitling Oracle7, 8, 8i, 9i OCP DBA Centrex Consulting Corporation http://www.centrexcc.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Wolfgang Breitling INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
Title: RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT We have 5 also. All teens now. Very scary. Braces, learning to drive, starting college. I hope yours were more spred out. Why? How? Three little girls, that's about right, then Surprise, twin boys. Uh oh. Wouldn't trade them for anything but wouldn't have planned it this way either. -Original Message- From: Freeman Robert - IL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? Also, I'm rapidly becomming a single parent, as my wife and I are divorcing after 15 years of mariage and I'm taking custody of the kids. However, I can assure you that those facts will not change my voice or it's use one jot. :-) (any single DBA ladies out there??!!) LOL. At any rate, I do choose my battles that is a lesson I learned long ago. You choose what is important to battle and what to leave behind. I used to take up every gauntlet thrown at my feet, problem was that I'd have so many battles going on that I'd loose them all Now, I pick and choose the important ones. Our future is unknown, and always born in pain, Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 11:49 AM - Original Message - education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. Well, at least she'll never accuse you of having an on-going issue... :) Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. For the sake of getting those kids out the door with a good education. Worse yet if we also have to support mums and dads way past the age where they can take care of themselves. Much worse yet if they are on the other side of the world. It's all part of that thing they call responsibility. Doesn't mean we cannot speak up. But it has to be done in a slightly different way. The art is in learning how far you can push. And where. And when. It's hard, but a few hard knocks are the best lesson. Has the role of DBA changed? Hell yeah! I've been claiming that for years, and why. But few have listened to the warning signs. Now, it's hit with a thud. Wake up call time. I agree with Robert: move to a place where you can be effective. Or change the world. Now, those of us with kids cannot afford to change the world. And even without kids, at 50 is not my idea of fun to form a union. Way past that. So, moving is the option. And all that comes with it like you pointed out: learning the ropes in the new organization. It ain't easy. Been there done that for the last 3 years. Much better now, but it was a shock. One hint: pick the organization very carefully. Last thing you want is to be outsourced... Then of course, there are those of us that were allowed to keep all their Oracle shares when they left. Real estate is the way to go. Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Freeman Robert - IL INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information
RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
Mine are all from 1.5 to 2 years apart. 10 to 18 woo hoo! Of course, about 1/2 of the available women in the world run yelling when I tell them I have custody of 5 kids. Since the other 1/2 are married, that leaves me high and dry! ;-) RF -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/6/2003 12:39 PM We have 5 also. All teens now. Very scary. Braces, learning to drive, starting college. I hope yours were more spred out. Why? How? Three little girls, that's about right, then Surprise, twin boys. Uh oh. Wouldn't trade them for anything but wouldn't have planned it this way either. -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? Also, I'm rapidly becomming a single parent, as my wife and I are divorcing after 15 years of mariage and I'm taking custody of the kids. However, I can assure you that those facts will not change my voice or it's use one jot. :-) (any single DBA ladies out there??!!) LOL. At any rate, I do choose my battles that is a lesson I learned long ago. You choose what is important to battle and what to leave behind. I used to take up every gauntlet thrown at my feet, problem was that I'd have so many battles going on that I'd loose them all Now, I pick and choose the important ones. Our future is unknown, and always born in pain, Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 11:49 AM - Original Message - education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. Well, at least she'll never accuse you of having an on-going issue... :) Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. For the sake of getting those kids out the door with a good education. Worse yet if we also have to support mums and dads way past the age where they can take care of themselves. Much worse yet if they are on the other side of the world. It's all part of that thing they call responsibility. Doesn't mean we cannot speak up. But it has to be done in a slightly different way. The art is in learning how far you can push. And where. And when. It's hard, but a few hard knocks are the best lesson. Has the role of DBA changed? Hell yeah! I've been claiming that for years, and why. But few have listened to the warning signs. Now, it's hit with a thud. Wake up call time. I agree with Robert: move to a place where you can be effective. Or change the world. Now, those of us with kids cannot afford to change the world. And even without kids, at 50 is not my idea of fun to form a union. Way past that. So, moving is the option. And all that comes with it like you pointed out: learning the ropes in the new organization. It ain't easy. Been there done that for the last 3 years. Much better now, but it was a shock. One hint: pick the organization very carefully. Last thing you want is to be outsourced... Then of course, there are those of us that were allowed to keep all their Oracle shares when they left. Real estate is the way to go. Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Freeman Robert - IL INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
RE: Cary's book[Scanned]
OT list please. Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/2003 11:09 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: Cary's book[Scanned] I look better in a skirt than you do :) --- Paul Baumgartel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, I can take it. ;-) --- Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you REALLY want an answer to that? --- Paul Baumgartel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Bob Metelsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Its funny, I attended the recent NYOUG (Rachael where were you???g) Hey, I was there, I even presented. What am I, chopped liver? ;-) PB __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Paul Baumgartel INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Paul Baumgartel INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
Hey folks, move it to the OT list, or just keep it private. Jared Bob Lofstrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/06/2003 10:39 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT We have 5 also. All teens now. Very scary. Braces, learning to drive, starting college. I hope yours were more spred out. Why? How? Three little girls, that's about right, then Surprise, twin boys. Uh oh. Wouldn't trade them for anything but wouldn't have planned it this way either. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? Also, I'm rapidly becomming a single parent, as my wife and I are divorcing after 15 years of mariage and I'm taking custody of the kids. However, I can assure you that those facts will not change my voice or it's use one jot. :-) (any single DBA ladies out there??!!) LOL. At any rate, I do choose my battles that is a lesson I learned long ago. You choose what is important to battle and what to leave behind. I used to take up every gauntlet thrown at my feet, problem was that I'd have so many battles going on that I'd loose them all Now, I pick and choose the important ones. Our future is unknown, and always born in pain, Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 11:49 AM - Original Message - education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. Well, at least she'll never accuse you of having an on-going issue... :) Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. For the sake of getting those kids out the door with a good education. Worse yet if we also have to support mums and dads way past the age where they can take care of themselves. Much worse yet if they are on the other side of the world. It's all part of that thing they call responsibility. Doesn't mean we cannot speak up. But it has to be done in a slightly different way. The art is in learning how far you can push. And where. And when. It's hard, but a few hard knocks are the best lesson. Has the role of DBA changed? Hell yeah! I've been claiming that for years, and why. But few have listened to the warning signs. Now, it's hit with a thud. Wake up call time. I agree with Robert: move to a place where you can be effective. Or change the world. Now, those of us with kids cannot afford to change the world. And even without kids, at 50 is not my idea of fun to form a union. Way past that. So, moving is the option. And all that comes with it like you pointed out: learning the ropes in the new organization. It ain't easy. Been there done that for the last 3 years. Much better now, but it was a shock. One hint: pick the organization very carefully. Last thing you want is to be outsourced... Then of course, there are those of us that were allowed to keep all their Oracle shares when they left. Real estate is the way to go. Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Freeman Robert - IL INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru
RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
Sorry Jared, I responded before I got far enough in the list to see your post. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 2:59 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OTHey folks, move it to the OT list, or just keep it private. Jared Bob Lofstrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/06/2003 10:39 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OTWe have 5 also. All teens now. Very scary. Braces, learning to drive, starting college. I hope yours were more spred out. Why? How? Three little girls, that's about right, then Surprise, twin boys. Uh oh. Wouldn't trade them for anything but wouldn't have planned it this way either. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? Also, I'm rapidly becomming a single parent, as my wife and I are divorcing after 15 years of mariage and I'm taking custody of the kids. However, I can assure you that those facts will not change my voice or it's use one jot. :-) (any single DBA ladies out there??!!) LOL. At any rate, I do choose my battles that is a lesson I learned long ago. You choose what is important to battle and what to leave behind. I used to take up every gauntlet thrown at my feet, problem was that I'd have so many battles going on that I'd loose them all Now, I pick and choose the important ones. Our future is unknown, and always born in pain, Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 11:49 AM - Original Message - education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. Well, at least she'll never accuse you of having an "on-going issue"... :) Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. For the sake of getting those kids out the door with a good education. Worse yet if we also have to support mums and dads way past the age where they can take care of themselves. Much worse yet if they are on the other side of the world. It's all part of that thing they call "responsibility". Doesn't mean we cannot speak up. But it has to be done in a slightly different way. The art is in learning how far you can push. And where. And when. It's hard, but a few hard knocks are the best lesson. Has the role of DBA changed? Hell yeah! I've been claiming that for years, and why. But few have listened to the warning signs. Now, it's hit with a thud. Wake up call time. I agree with Robert: move to a place where you can be effective. Or change the world. Now, those of us with kids cannot afford to change the world. And even without kids, at 50 is not my idea of fun to form a union. Way past that. So, moving is the option. And all that comes with it like you pointed out: learning the ropes in the new organization. It ain't easy. Been there done that for the last 3 years. Much better now, but it was a shock. One hint: pick the organization very carefully. Last thing you want is to be outsourced... Then of course, there are those of us that were allowed to keep all their Oracle shares when they left. Real estate is the way to go. Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Freeman Robe
RE: Cary's book
that you've described in your note below. I've worked in the shop where I proposed the Right Answer, only to have a drill sergeant tell me that no, his shop's not going to do it that way because a big copper and red book says you should do it differently. That day was a big splash of cold water. I have tried to react productively to it. :) Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Performance Diagnosis 101: 10/28 Phoenix, 11/19 Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004: March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 10:15 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I enjoy immensely reading Cary's book, but I have some questions that I want to ask publicly. Recently, I made a comment about Chris Lawson's book being a Dale Carnegie book for a DBA and now I see that Cary is also advising feeding the hungry business users (buy him a sandwich). It is true that many problems are consequences of inadequate communication, general lack of business knowledge in the computer geek culture and even disdain for it, but, in my opinion, many problems are also a consequence of incompetent managers (damagers), office politics, and hard times. Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a performance tuning course (example from Chris Lawson's book), why bother reading and investing into myself? A cynical geekish attitude and the old boys network will do just as well. Characteristics of the performance analyst, as described in the book, are the ones of the field general (has the overview of the whole problem, motivates, manages the problem) but performance analysts frequently work for the drill sergeants who mostly care how are they dressed (you guessed it, I hate neckties) and did they show up early enough. Now, after having indulged into lengthy preamble, let's ask the questions: 1) This book is meant for performance analysts. Do you plan on writing one for management, as well? If performance analysts are held back by the damagement,they cannot perform any of the good work you described in your book. You have been both a DBA and a VP, so you have the credibility in both roles. 2) Do you foresee a change for the role of a performance analyst in an organization to be more of a technical manager and less of a computer geek? 3) What will happen to the traditional DBA? Are we an endangered species? Should I be wary of the poachers? Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book
Rachel Carmichael wrote: sorry Jared, I have to tell this story on myself: at UKOUG in '99, I did a presentation on 24x7 options. I was being very professional so I was standing in front of the room wearing a skirt, instead of pants. I said to the room being a paranoid DBA, I tend to want to wear a belt, have elastic in my waistband and wear suspenders silence.. and then I realized that what Americans call suspenders the British call braces and what I had said translated into Americanese as garter belt I got a LOT of interested looks during the remainder of that presentation. Hony soit qui mal y pense. -- Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole Software -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book[Scanned]
Sure, I can take it. ;-) --- Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you REALLY want an answer to that? --- Paul Baumgartel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Bob Metelsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Its funny, I attended the recent NYOUG (Rachael where were you???g) Hey, I was there, I even presented. What am I, chopped liver? ;-) PB __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Paul Baumgartel INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Paul Baumgartel INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book[Scanned]
I look better in a skirt than you do :) --- Paul Baumgartel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, I can take it. ;-) --- Rachel Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you REALLY want an answer to that? --- Paul Baumgartel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Bob Metelsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Its funny, I attended the recent NYOUG (Rachael where were you???g) Hey, I was there, I even presented. What am I, chopped liver? ;-) PB __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Paul Baumgartel INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Paul Baumgartel INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
Great Britain and the United States are two nations separated by a common language. - George Bernard Shaw -Original Message- Rachel Carmichael Sent: 04 October 2003 01:19 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L sorry Jared, I have to tell this story on myself: at UKOUG in '99, I did a presentation on 24x7 options. I was being very professional so I was standing in front of the room wearing a skirt, instead of pants. I said to the room being a paranoid DBA, I tend to want to wear a belt, have elastic in my waistband and wear suspenders silence.. and then I realized that what Americans call suspenders the British call braces and what I had said translated into Americanese as garter belt I got a LOT of interested looks during the remainder of that presentation. --- Govindan K [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: when I went to the admin who had the keys of the stationary and asked her for a rubber, instead of eraser. In the English language they taught me at school, that little rubbery implement used to erase what someone has written down was known as rubber. I was extremely annoyed by her reaction Here is a short list of confusions i have observed so far rubber -- eraser cover -- envelope 2nd signal on the road -- 2nd light on the road Best (or worst?) dd/mm/yy -- mm/dd/yy switch (off is down, on is up) petrol pump -- gas station I too have gone crazy on a number of occasions. For an longer list, please mail me off the list. -Original Message- From: Mladen Gogala Sent: 10/3/2003 1:02:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 15:29, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: The manager feels awkward in being forced to hire an expert in an area he/she knows nothing about. Tries to make suggestions in order to flush out whether this expert really knows anything. And you call a guy who makes suggestions about something he knows nothing about inexperienced? Nice euphemism, sort of reminds me on my 1st working day in US, when I went to the admin who had the keys of the stationary (and she was a young and attractive female, which is important for the further story development) and asked her for a rubber, instead of eraser. In the English language they taught me at school, that little rubbery implement used to erase what someone has written down was known as rubber. I was extremely annoyed by her reaction (she was actually shocked and started speaking very fast, so that the only words I was able to discern were sexual harassment) and I didn't think much of her, to say the least. Today I dread to even think what did she think of me. A DBA manager who doesn't know anything of a database is, essentially, in the very same position as a big east European klutz in desperate need of office stuff. Inexperienced isn't the word I'd use to describe him. Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . ___ Get Your 10MB account for FREE at http://mail.arabia.com ! Access MILLIONS of JOBS NOW! http://ads.arabia.com/?SHT=text_email_english __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: David Kurtz INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Wooo.....Cary's book -- Out of stock !
i got my copy too from bookpool. .need to start reading it. happy weekend (with cary's book in hand) everybody. Jp. 30-9-2003 22:54:27, Stephane Paquette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've also picked up my copy yesterday but ...I'm assuming everyone else has theirs by now and are busily reading. ... I still not have finished Tom Kite Expert one on one Stephane Paquette -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Prem Khanna J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Cary's book
I enjoy immensely reading Cary's book, but I have some questions that I want to ask publicly. Recently, I made a comment about Chris Lawson's book being a Dale Carnegie book for a DBA and now I see that Cary is also advising feeding the hungry business users (buy him a sandwich). It is true that many problems are consequences of inadequate communication, general lack of business knowledge in the computer geek culture and even disdain for it, but, in my opinion, many problems are also a consequence of incompetent managers (damagers), office politics, and hard times. Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a performance tuning course (example from Chris Lawson's book), why bother reading and investing into myself? A cynical geekish attitude and the old boys network will do just as well. Characteristics of the performance analyst, as described in the book, are the ones of the field general (has the overview of the whole problem, motivates, manages the problem) but performance analysts frequently work for the drill sergeants who mostly care how are they dressed (you guessed it, I hate neckties) and did they show up early enough. Now, after having indulged into lengthy preamble, let's ask the questions: 1) This book is meant for performance analysts. Do you plan on writing one for management, as well? If performance analysts are held back by the damagement,they cannot perform any of the good work you described in your book. You have been both a DBA and a VP, so you have the credibility in both roles. 2) Do you foresee a change for the role of a performance analyst in an organization to be more of a technical manager and less of a computer geek? 3) What will happen to the traditional DBA? Are we an endangered species? Should I be wary of the poachers? Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book
I personally feel that its managements call to make these kinds of decisions. If they are bad decisions its both their fault and their problem. If this forces you to work an incredible amount of hours, quit and go somewhere else. Hard to say that in a slow economy though. To be fair, I feel that the biggest weakness in technical people is our lack of understanding management,cost, and customer relations. Im not different. From my level, I dont see the big picture in the company. I may not be privy to the information. Your manager may say no to you because someone up the food chain told him to. He wont necessarily be in a position to tell you this. Not sure if this kind of a book would be worth writing. I doubt managers would read it. I think another big weakness amongst technical people is over-specialization. to be at the top of a skillset you have to focus, but if you focus too much its VERY hard to work with other skillsets since you dont know enough about their area of expertise to even know if the person is competent or not. You also run into, lets keep it in my skillset fights. You know everything in the database(I prefer this, but am open) or everything in the application layer. This is in large part because people are not familiar with other skillsets. I think a huge question that still needs to be resolved is how do you efficiently map a relational database schema to an object-oriented front end? There are no good methods. The best I have heard of is an article by Dorsey in ODTUG about using Object Views as a 'middle tier', but that is some fairly complex mapping. well i got off topic and rattled on... From: Mladen Gogala [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/03 Fri AM 11:14:33 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Cary's book I enjoy immensely reading Cary's book, but I have some questions that I want to ask publicly. Recently, I made a comment about Chris Lawson's book being a Dale Carnegie book for a DBA and now I see that Cary is also advising feeding the hungry business users (buy him a sandwich). It is true that many problems are consequences of inadequate communication, general lack of business knowledge in the computer geek culture and even disdain for it, but, in my opinion, many problems are also a consequence of incompetent managers (damagers), office politics, and hard times. Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a performance tuning course (example from Chris Lawson's book), why bother reading and investing into myself? A cynical geekish attitude and the old boys network will do just as well. Characteristics of the performance analyst, as described in the book, are the ones of the field general (has the overview of the whole problem, motivates, manages the problem) but performance analysts frequently work for the drill sergeants who mostly care how are they dressed (you guessed it, I hate neckties) and did they show up early enough. Now, after having indulged into lengthy preamble, let's ask the questions: 1) This book is meant for performance analysts. Do you plan on writing one for management, as well? If performance analysts are held back by the damagement,they cannot perform any of the good work you described in your book. You have been both a DBA and a VP, so you have the credibility in both roles. 2) Do you foresee a change for the role of a performance analyst in an organization to be more of a technical manager and less of a computer geek? 3) What will happen to the traditional DBA? Are we an endangered species? Should I be wary of the poachers? Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
Re: RE: Cary's book
How much you open your mouth depends on who you work for. You can open your mouth to the unemployment line. Alot of managers feel that you are undermining their authority if you correct them in meetings. I had one manager tell me that I was doing just that simply by answering co-workers questions. She was mad that they were coming to me instead of her. Same manager threatened to fire me because I gave HER BOSS a correct answer, an answer that I found out later she didnt agree with. It depends on your situation. This is particularly true when dealing with government maintenance projects. You have to be very careful about what you say. I was on a defense contract and the government had 2 very senior people that were available to all contractors as reference aids. One of which is a lurker on this listserv. I asked one of them a question. Notified my manager I did that, next day I had a meeting where I was told if I ever talked to either of them again I would be fired. They felt it embarrassed them. Even though they were PAYED to specifically answer our questions. One of which was from Oracle corporation in the 'technical services group', so you can imagine what his rate is. It just depends where you work. You have to get a feel for your boss on how far you can go. As I said its both their fault and their problem if they make these mistakes. Im not going to get fired for doing the right thing. Though Ill gladly quit on them first. From: Freeman Robert - IL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/03 Fri AM 11:49:33 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's book Mladen, this is not directed specifically at you, but you have raised something in my mind that often just irritates the heck out of me. I often hear the term Damagement, damagers, etc... and I understand it, and have had more than a few occasions where a damager has killed me Management is far from perfect, and I've met a number of managers who deserve to be kicked in the back side and sent out on the street. Yet, I often also wonder how much of this is OUR OWN FAULT. How many IT guys have I met that are way to passive, more than content to sit in there cubes and blame management, when the fault, at least in part, lies squarely with them. More than I can count. Lack of communication, lack of passion for ones own work, lack of vision, contentment in not understanding the big picture, the I'm not paid to do this syndrome or the It's not my job POV all in my eyes lead to as much failure as management. The guys who will not get their lazy behinds out of their chairs and go TALK to someone (other than the really good looking blonde down the isle) deserve to have their head chopped off as much as the manager they can't stand. I've met so many who will sit in meetings and let managers say STUPID things, never correct, never interject and so the cycle of stupidity is perpetuated. Sure, there may be cultures that foster this type of behavior, but I see it in cultures that are quite open too. Bottom line is that we have to refuse to be silent. We must go out and take a stand, and take some risk. We must LEARN about more than how Oracle works, we must learn how the business works. Those who do this are the successful ones, and my observation is that I rarely hear them cussing management. This is usually because, they either change the world around them, or they move on to a place where they can be effective. My opinion, YMMV, Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 10:14 AM I enjoy immensely reading Cary's book, but I have some questions that I want to ask publicly. Recently, I made a comment about Chris Lawson's book being a Dale Carnegie book for a DBA and now I see that Cary is also advising feeding the hungry business users (buy him a sandwich). It is true that many problems are consequences of inadequate communication, general lack of business knowledge in the computer geek culture and even disdain for it, but, in my opinion, many problems are also a consequence of incompetent managers (damagers), office politics, and hard times. Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a performance tuning course (example from Chris Lawson's book), why bother reading and investing into myself? A cynical geekish attitude and the old boys network will do just as well. Characteristics of the performance analyst, as described in the book, are the ones of the field general (has the overview of the whole problem, motivates, manages the problem) but performance analysts frequently work for the drill sergeants who mostly care how are they dressed (you guessed it, I hate neckties) and did they show
RE: Cary's book
Sorry for replying on your private email. Here it goes again: Robert, no doubt that what I called a geekish culture is at fault here, and to the large part, at that. Personally, I do speak up, may be even too loud. But consider this: I've recently changed jobs, because of a row over something called release process. In essence, the right to block the installation of applications with bad SQL was taken away. I raised my head, I spoke aloud and I was told not to expect bonus in this millennium and then, soon afterward, asked to accept a pay cut. So I left. So far, so good. I'm new at the company, I don't have enough business knowledge in this new line of work and the company is a well entrenched company with power players whose roles I don't understand quite yet. What happens, if I speak up? In this situation, I might find myself jobless, which would adversely affect my mortgage, my son's education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 10:48, Freeman Robert - IL wrote: Mladen, this is not directed specifically at you, but you have raised something in my mind that often just irritates the heck out of me. I often hear the term Damagement, damagers, etc... and I understand it, and have had more than a few occasions where a damager has killed me Management is far from perfect, and I've met a number of managers who deserve to be kicked in the back side and sent out on the street. Yet, I often also wonder how much of this is OUR OWN FAULT. How many IT guys have I met that are way to passive, more than content to sit in there cubes and blame management, when the fault, at least in part, lies squarely with them. More than I can count. Lack of communication, lack of passion for ones own work, lack of vision, contentment in not understanding the big picture, the I'm not paid to do this syndrome or the It's not my job POV all in my eyes lead to as much failure as management. The guys who will not get their lazy behinds out of their chairs and go TALK to someone (other than the really good looking blonde down the isle) deserve to have their head chopped off as much as the manager they can't stand. I've met so many who will sit in meetings and let managers say STUPID things, never correct, never interject and so the cycle of stupidity is perpetuated. Sure, there may be cultures that foster this type of behavior, but I see it in cultures that are quite open too. Bottom line is that we have to refuse to be silent. We must go out and take a stand, and take some risk. We must LEARN about more than how Oracle works, we must learn how the business works. Those who do this are the successful ones, and my observation is that I rarely hear them cussing management. This is usually because, they either change the world around them, or they move on to a place where they can be effective. My opinion, YMMV, Robert -Original Message- From: Mladen Gogala To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 10:14 AM Subject: Cary's book I enjoy immensely reading Cary's book, but I have some questions that I want to ask publicly. Recently, I made a comment about Chris Lawson's book being a Dale Carnegie book for a DBA and now I see that Cary is also advising feeding the hungry business users (buy him a sandwich). It is true that many problems are consequences of inadequate communication, general lack of business knowledge in the computer geek culture and even disdain for it, but, in my opinion, many problems are also a consequence of incompetent managers (damagers), office politics, and hard times. Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a performance tuning course (example from Chris Lawson's book), why bother reading and investing into myself? A cynical geekish attitude and the old boys network will do just as well. Characteristics of the performance analyst, as described in the book, are the ones of the field general (has the overview of the whole problem, motivates, manages the problem) but performance analysts frequently work for the drill sergeants who mostly care how are they dressed (you guessed it, I hate neckties) and did they show up early enough. Now, after having indulged into lengthy preamble, let's ask the questions: 1) This book is meant for performance analysts. Do you plan on writing one for management, as well? If performance analysts are held back by the damagement,they cannot perform any of the good work
RE: Cary's book
Mladen, this is not directed specifically at you, but you have raised something in my mind that often just irritates the heck out of me. I often hear the term Damagement, damagers, etc... and I understand it, and have had more than a few occasions where a damager has killed me Management is far from perfect, and I've met a number of managers who deserve to be kicked in the back side and sent out on the street. Yet, I often also wonder how much of this is OUR OWN FAULT. How many IT guys have I met that are way to passive, more than content to sit in there cubes and blame management, when the fault, at least in part, lies squarely with them. More than I can count. Lack of communication, lack of passion for ones own work, lack of vision, contentment in not understanding the big picture, the I'm not paid to do this syndrome or the It's not my job POV all in my eyes lead to as much failure as management. The guys who will not get their lazy behinds out of their chairs and go TALK to someone (other than the really good looking blonde down the isle) deserve to have their head chopped off as much as the manager they can't stand. I've met so many who will sit in meetings and let managers say STUPID things, never correct, never interject and so the cycle of stupidity is perpetuated. Sure, there may be cultures that foster this type of behavior, but I see it in cultures that are quite open too. Bottom line is that we have to refuse to be silent. We must go out and take a stand, and take some risk. We must LEARN about more than how Oracle works, we must learn how the business works. Those who do this are the successful ones, and my observation is that I rarely hear them cussing management. This is usually because, they either change the world around them, or they move on to a place where they can be effective. My opinion, YMMV, Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 10:14 AM I enjoy immensely reading Cary's book, but I have some questions that I want to ask publicly. Recently, I made a comment about Chris Lawson's book being a Dale Carnegie book for a DBA and now I see that Cary is also advising feeding the hungry business users (buy him a sandwich). It is true that many problems are consequences of inadequate communication, general lack of business knowledge in the computer geek culture and even disdain for it, but, in my opinion, many problems are also a consequence of incompetent managers (damagers), office politics, and hard times. Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a performance tuning course (example from Chris Lawson's book), why bother reading and investing into myself? A cynical geekish attitude and the old boys network will do just as well. Characteristics of the performance analyst, as described in the book, are the ones of the field general (has the overview of the whole problem, motivates, manages the problem) but performance analysts frequently work for the drill sergeants who mostly care how are they dressed (you guessed it, I hate neckties) and did they show up early enough. Now, after having indulged into lengthy preamble, let's ask the questions: 1) This book is meant for performance analysts. Do you plan on writing one for management, as well? If performance analysts are held back by the damagement,they cannot perform any of the good work you described in your book. You have been both a DBA and a VP, so you have the credibility in both roles. 2) Do you foresee a change for the role of a performance analyst in an organization to be more of a technical manager and less of a computer geek? 3) What will happen to the traditional DBA? Are we an endangered species? Should I be wary of the poachers? Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California
RE: Cary's book
Mladen Gogala scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: accept a pay cut. So I left. So far, so good. I'm new at the company, I don't have enough business knowledge in this new line of work and the company is a well entrenched company with power players whose roles I don't understand quite yet. What happens, if I speak up? In here i do find myself at a bit of an advantage being a contractor. i can, to some extent, tromp on office politics. they bring me in to do a job, often at a large expense [ or at least a high bill rate from my company] and tend to accept what i say as truth since i'm an outsider. now that also has a down side, since i come into a situation where my presence is already resented by the geeks because they see my being brought in as an insult. now let's see if any of this actually shows up.;-) -- Bill Shrek Thater ORACLE DBA I'm going to work my ticket if I can... -- Gilwell song [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...the myth of socialism is far stronger than the reality of capitalism. That is because capitalism is not really an ism at all. It is what people do if you leave them alone. - Arnold Beichmen, Hoover Institute Fellow -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book
Mladen, Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a If you know you're better than the bozo and that you can give people more value for their money then I think this is a marketing problem more than anything else. It's up to you to prove to the buyer (or your boss) that you can do the work better. Quantify your expected results. Chapter 4 has an excellent discussion on this. Gudmundur -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gudmundur Josepsson INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: RE: Cary's book
Looks like this discussion is moving into peopleskills-l. Gudmundur -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gudmundur Josepsson INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
Title: RE: Cary's book That only works up to the point where they are willing to pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means that you are trainable. If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- From: Gudmundur Josepsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Cary's book Mladen, Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a If you know you're better than the bozo and that you can give people more value for their money then I think this is a marketing problem more than anything else. It's up to you to prove to the buyer (or your boss) that you can do the work better. Quantify your expected results. Chapter 4 has an excellent discussion on this. Gudmundur -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gudmundur Josepsson INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
Re: Cary's book
- Original Message - education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. Well, at least she'll never accuse you of having an on-going issue... :) Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. For the sake of getting those kids out the door with a good education. Worse yet if we also have to support mums and dads way past the age where they can take care of themselves. Much worse yet if they are on the other side of the world. It's all part of that thing they call responsibility. Doesn't mean we cannot speak up. But it has to be done in a slightly different way. The art is in learning how far you can push. And where. And when. It's hard, but a few hard knocks are the best lesson. Has the role of DBA changed? Hell yeah! I've been claiming that for years, and why. But few have listened to the warning signs. Now, it's hit with a thud. Wake up call time. I agree with Robert: move to a place where you can be effective. Or change the world. Now, those of us with kids cannot afford to change the world. And even without kids, at 50 is not my idea of fun to form a union. Way past that. So, moving is the option. And all that comes with it like you pointed out: learning the ropes in the new organization. It ain't easy. Been there done that for the last 3 years. Much better now, but it was a shock. One hint: pick the organization very carefully. Last thing you want is to be outsourced... Then of course, there are those of us that were allowed to keep all their Oracle shares when they left. Real estate is the way to go. Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book
Robert, Well said. I think the problem goes farther back than just us sitting in our cubes. I hate to stereotype, but there is some truth in saying that 'geeks' tend to be somewhat introverted, where many in management are somewhat extroverted. This year's IOUG-A Live was a great example. Here we all are, the best and brightest in the world of Oracle, walking the halls, having intense conversations. In the midst of it all, a pharmecutical sales convention starts sharing our hallways. Talk about polar opposites! It reminded me of high school with the 'serious' students and the popular crowd. Is this any different than work? Especially those people who work in non-IT companies. We all focus on training, OCPs/OCMs, etc, but how many of us have taken a corporate communication class or engaged a business/personal coach? As for management, I've had great ones and god-awful ones. One manager tore me a new one because I explained that one of our systems was 5 minutes behind the others (in explaining the entries in a log file). I've also had ones that would step up to bat for you, even when they could easily justify the opposite. You have to figure out the political landscape, find the mines in the battlefield and step carefully. We can no longer sit in our cubes, writing complex C programs, laughing at the foibles of 'damagement' and 'lusers'. We have to find a way to integrate ourselves into the business. It's not that you have to agree 100% with what is done. If you are going to disagree, do so respectfully and with proper reasoning and documentation. Communication is composed of two pieces, what you say and what the other person hears. As for the geek work, there will always be places for those who excel at something. More appropriately, they will have a place if they can make their skills relevant. This requires understanding the bits and bytes, AND being able to put that into the context of the business need. I've enjoyed the past few years really exploring UNDO, but it is really irrelevant in the business world I live in. What is relevant here? Well, that's my next big project. I'll still be hacking away at Oracle, learning how it REALLY works, doing things that they say should/could not be done. But my goal is to make myself more proficient in a skill that will benefit the organization. My $0.03 (I'm a little long winded today...) Daniel Fink Freeman Robert - IL wrote: Mladen, this is not directed specifically at you, but you have raised something in my mind that often just irritates the heck out of me. I often hear the term Damagement, damagers, etc... and I understand it, and have had more than a few occasions where a damager has killed me Management is far from perfect, and I've met a number of managers who deserve to be kicked in the back side and sent out on the street. Yet, I often also wonder how much of this is OUR OWN FAULT. How many IT guys have I met that are way to passive, more than content to sit in there cubes and blame management, when the fault, at least in part, lies squarely with them. More than I can count. Lack of communication, lack of passion for ones own work, lack of vision, contentment in not understanding the big picture, the I'm not paid to do this syndrome or the It's not my job POV all in my eyes lead to as much failure as management. The guys who will not get their lazy behinds out of their chairs and go TALK to someone (other than the really good looking blonde down the isle) deserve to have their head chopped off as much as the manager they can't stand. I've met so many who will sit in meetings and let managers say STUPID things, never correct, never interject and so the cycle of stupidity is perpetuated. Sure, there may be cultures that foster this type of behavior, but I see it in cultures that are quite open too. Bottom line is that we have to refuse to be silent. We must go out and take a stand, and take some risk. We must LEARN about more than how Oracle works, we must learn how the business works. Those who do this are the successful ones, and my observation is that I rarely hear them cussing management. This is usually because, they either change the world around them, or they move on to a place where they can be effective. My opinion, YMMV, Robert begin:vcard n:Fink;Daniel x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Sun Microsystems, Inc. adr:;; version:2.1 title:Lead, Database Services x-mozilla-cpt:;9168 fn:Daniel W. Fink end:vcard
RE: Cary's book
Marketing is as much as how you present yourself as it is anything else. I've seen uncertified and unexperienced guys who could write a resume that would make you think they could walk on water, reorg, defrag, code in C#, asp and java all while designing the newest, latest, greatest hybrid automobile. Of course, when you pin them down to facts you find out they they haven't a clue what SQL*Plus is, they have never done a hot backup, they can only write a hello world C program, they thought java was something you picked up at Starbucks and they think hybrids are flowers that are cross polinated. Marketing yourself is about learning what people want to hear Of course, one would hope that you would tell the TRUTH when you market yourself, but it's become clear to me over the years that there is a certain percentage of the population that hansn't figured out the truth angle yet. RF -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 11:39 AM That only works up to the point where they are willing to pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means that you are trainable. If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Freeman Robert - IL INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
Title: RE: Cary's book This is a difficult question that I've had to face more than I would have liked in the past 2 years. The way to do it is to mark your prices down and say that comparing bang for the buck, you've got a bigger bang... and maybe they can squeeze out a better buck... and maybe they can't... but at least you can compete with people with little or no experience... OH, and all those phone calls you get from recruiters... return them all... every last one of them... and make friends with them... tell them you're an expensive commodity, but if they hear of anything you're always interested in looking around... because it is much better to leave on your own terms and go job to job than to let the market forces do their bit and be sitting between jobs for weeks and months,then settling for money you'd prefer not to settle for... HTH, Bambi. -Original Message-From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:40 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Cary's book That only works up to the point where they are willing to pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means that you are trainable. If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- From: Gudmundur Josepsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Cary's book Mladen, Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who "improves" on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a If you know you're better than the bozo and that you can give people more value for their money then I think this is a marketing problem more than anything else. It's up to you to prove to the buyer (or your boss) that you can do the work better. Quantify your expected results. Chapter 4 has an excellent discussion on this. Gudmundur -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gudmundur Josepsson INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? Also, I'm rapidly becomming a single parent, as my wife and I are divorcing after 15 years of mariage and I'm taking custody of the kids. However, I can assure you that those facts will not change my voice or it's use one jot. :-) (any single DBA ladies out there??!!) LOL. At any rate, I do choose my battles that is a lesson I learned long ago. You choose what is important to battle and what to leave behind. I used to take up every gauntlet thrown at my feet, problem was that I'd have so many battles going on that I'd loose them all Now, I pick and choose the important ones. Our future is unknown, and always born in pain, Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 11:49 AM - Original Message - education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. Well, at least she'll never accuse you of having an on-going issue... :) Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. For the sake of getting those kids out the door with a good education. Worse yet if we also have to support mums and dads way past the age where they can take care of themselves. Much worse yet if they are on the other side of the world. It's all part of that thing they call responsibility. Doesn't mean we cannot speak up. But it has to be done in a slightly different way. The art is in learning how far you can push. And where. And when. It's hard, but a few hard knocks are the best lesson. Has the role of DBA changed? Hell yeah! I've been claiming that for years, and why. But few have listened to the warning signs. Now, it's hit with a thud. Wake up call time. I agree with Robert: move to a place where you can be effective. Or change the world. Now, those of us with kids cannot afford to change the world. And even without kids, at 50 is not my idea of fun to form a union. Way past that. So, moving is the option. And all that comes with it like you pointed out: learning the ropes in the new organization. It ain't easy. Been there done that for the last 3 years. Much better now, but it was a shock. One hint: pick the organization very carefully. Last thing you want is to be outsourced... Then of course, there are those of us that were allowed to keep all their Oracle shares when they left. Real estate is the way to go. Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Freeman Robert - IL INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
Freeman Robert - IL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? I've six here. ~brian -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
Offshore impacts are killers on rates these days... However, It is my feeling that this will be self correcting in about 2 years when everything is totally screwed up, and mark my words, things will be. I've seen way to many offshore projects fail. Big projects will be way over budget, way behind schedule and perform like grandma moses. An offshore support model might work, but an offshore development model often fails (but not always). Companies will come begging for real DBA's, LOCAL DBA's and developers, to save them from themselves and the really bad, cheap, decision they made to offshore. The old addage is so true, You can pay me now, or you can pay me later... and brother, it's going to be really expensive later. Just gotta believe, Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 11:59 AM This is a difficult question that I've had to face more than I would have liked in the past 2 years. The way to do it is to mark your prices down and say that comparing bang for the buck, you've got a bigger bang... and maybe they can squeeze out a better buck... and maybe they can't... but at least you can compete with people with little or no experience... OH, and all those phone calls you get from recruiters... return them all... every last one of them... and make friends with them... tell them you're an expensive commodity, but if they hear of anything you're always interested in looking around... because it is much better to leave on your own terms and go job to job than to let the market forces do their bit and be sitting between jobs for weeks and months, then settling for money you'd prefer not to settle for... HTH, Bambi. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:40 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L That only works up to the point where they are willing to pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means that you are trainable. If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mladen, Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a If you know you're better than the bozo and that you can give people more value for their money then I think this is a marketing problem more than anything else. It's up to you to prove to the buyer (or your boss) that you can do the work better. Quantify your expected results. Chapter 4 has an excellent discussion on this. Gudmundur -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gudmundur Josepsson INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus
RE: Cary's book
Daniel, I agree 100% with what you said Somehow we must find a way to come out of our shell. I am among those coming out of my shell is HARD standing up at IOUG-A, or UKOUG or wherever and speaking to that room full of people is one of the hardest things I do. I just make myself... every year I force myself to submit those abstracts, because I know it helps me grow as a person. So, THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE NEVER DONE IT BEFORE, SIGN UP AND DO IT SO I DON'T HAVE TO :-D Even writing is hard, because you put it all out there for the critics to trounce on. However, it's wonderful when you get the positive feedback and someone says, Wow your book was great! one of those makes up for about 100 bad comments to me. Like so many others here, I see the DBA life changing Like so many others, I've been doing it so long, that I'm starting to see that it's time for a change. maybe 5 years, maybe longer we will see. Am I the only one that this job tires and stresses out? :-) Best part of it, though, is I've made some great friends even if I only see them once or twice a year! Cheers, Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 11:54 AM Robert, Well said. I think the problem goes farther back than just us sitting in our cubes. I hate to stereotype, but there is some truth in saying that 'geeks' tend to be somewhat introverted, where many in management are somewhat extroverted. This year's IOUG-A Live was a great example. Here we all are, the best and brightest in the world of Oracle, walking the halls, having intense conversations. In the midst of it all, a pharmecutical sales convention starts sharing our hallways. Talk about polar opposites! It reminded me of high school with the 'serious' students and the popular crowd. Is this any different than work? Especially those people who work in non-IT companies. We all focus on training, OCPs/OCMs, etc, but how many of us have taken a corporate communication class or engaged a business/personal coach? As for management, I've had great ones and god-awful ones. One manager tore me a new one because I explained that one of our systems was 5 minutes behind the others (in explaining the entries in a log file). I've also had ones that would step up to bat for you, even when they could easily justify the opposite. You have to figure out the political landscape, find the mines in the battlefield and step carefully. We can no longer sit in our cubes, writing complex C programs, laughing at the foibles of 'damagement' and 'lusers'. We have to find a way to integrate ourselves into the business. It's not that you have to agree 100% with what is done. If you are going to disagree, do so respectfully and with proper reasoning and documentation. Communication is composed of two pieces, what you say and what the other person hears. As for the geek work, there will always be places for those who excel at something. More appropriately, they will have a place if they can make their skills relevant. This requires understanding the bits and bytes, AND being able to put that into the context of the business need. I've enjoyed the past few years really exploring UNDO, but it is really irrelevant in the business world I live in. What is relevant here? Well, that's my next big project. I'll still be hacking away at Oracle, learning how it REALLY works, doing things that they say should/could not be done. But my goal is to make myself more proficient in a skill that will benefit the organization. My $0.03 (I'm a little long winded today...) Daniel Fink Freeman Robert - IL wrote: Mladen, this is not directed specifically at you, but you have raised something in my mind that often just irritates the heck out of me. I often hear the term Damagement, damagers, etc... and I understand it, and have had more than a few occasions where a damager has killed me Management is far from perfect, and I've met a number of managers who deserve to be kicked in the back side and sent out on the street. Yet, I often also wonder how much of this is OUR OWN FAULT. How many IT guys have I met that are way to passive, more than content to sit in there cubes and blame management, when the fault, at least in part, lies squarely with them. More than I can count. Lack of communication, lack of passion for ones own work, lack of vision, contentment in not understanding the big picture, the I'm not paid to do this syndrome or the It's not my job POV all in my eyes lead to as much failure as management. The guys who will not get their lazy behinds out of their chairs and go TALK to someone (other than the really good looking blonde down the isle) deserve to have their head chopped off as much as the manager they can't stand. I've met so many who will sit in meetings and let managers say STUPID things, never correct, never interject and so the cycle of stupidity is perpetuated. Sure, there may be cultures
Re: Cary's book
I've spent a lot of my life in highly structured corporate America -- cutthroat corporate. I've managed not to make enemies, to gain credibility, to make my issues known, to learn when to fight and when to compromise. The techniques I used are in the presentation I'm giving at UKOUG :) --- Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. Well, at least she'll never accuse you of having an on-going issue... :) Yes, unfortunately those of us who have had the courage and accepted the responsibility of bringing children to the world have to sometimes take the bad with the good. For the sake of getting those kids out the door with a good education. Worse yet if we also have to support mums and dads way past the age where they can take care of themselves. Much worse yet if they are on the other side of the world. It's all part of that thing they call responsibility. Doesn't mean we cannot speak up. But it has to be done in a slightly different way. The art is in learning how far you can push. And where. And when. It's hard, but a few hard knocks are the best lesson. Has the role of DBA changed? Hell yeah! I've been claiming that for years, and why. But few have listened to the warning signs. Now, it's hit with a thud. Wake up call time. I agree with Robert: move to a place where you can be effective. Or change the world. Now, those of us with kids cannot afford to change the world. And even without kids, at 50 is not my idea of fun to form a union. Way past that. So, moving is the option. And all that comes with it like you pointed out: learning the ropes in the new organization. It ain't easy. Been there done that for the last 3 years. Much better now, but it was a shock. One hint: pick the organization very carefully. Last thing you want is to be outsourced... Then of course, there are those of us that were allowed to keep all their Oracle shares when they left. Real estate is the way to go. Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
- Original Message - Ooops, did I send private instead of public? Apologies if so. It's late here and I'm half asleep already. Just waiting for the flu pills to kick in. in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? 3 here. Only 2 now. Also, I'm rapidly becomming a single parent, as my wife and I are divorcing after 15 years of mariage and I'm taking custody of the kids. That sucks. Sorry to hear it's come to that. It's a heavy burden. At any rate, I do choose my battles that is a lesson I learned long ago. You choose what is important to battle and what to leave behind. I used to take up every gauntlet thrown at my feet, problem was that I'd have so many battles going on that I'd loose them all Now, I pick and choose the important ones. Yup. Very good advice. I'd only add: learning what is important is an on-going exercise. It takes a while when we've been used to the years past. When all that was needed was shake the tree. Not that easy now. But DBAs are renowned for being able to use their brains. That's where things can get better. Our future is unknown, and always born in pain, C'mon, not always *that* pessimistic. I don't believe the IT market will get better for DBAs, but there are other areas where the skills can be used and the future is brighter. And people who can demonstrably use their brains are always an asset. Even though not all damagers will admit to it, mostly they know it's true. Cheers Nuno Souto [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Nuno Souto INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
Ah, yes... No kids here, but I do have pet potbellied pigs to support. Anyone have more than 2? ;) Dan Brian Dunbar wrote: Freeman Robert - IL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? I've six here. ~brian -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). begin:vcard n:Fink;Daniel x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Sun Microsystems, Inc. adr:;; version:2.1 title:Lead, Database Services x-mozilla-cpt:;9168 fn:Daniel W. Fink end:vcard
RE: The Increasingly Inaptly Named Cary's book Thread
About 20 years ago, discussing this very trend, a friend mentioned that what we need is a computer professional union (CPU, we called it), but that geeks were disinclined to go that direction because we were a bunch of cowboys and wouldn't make personal sacrifices for common goals. Now that all the jobs are going offshore, what do you think? Is a DBA union even something that can be done? -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sorry for replying on your private email. Here it goes again: Robert, no doubt that what I called a geekish culture is at fault here, and to the large part, at that. Personally, I do speak up, may be even too loud. But consider this: I've recently changed jobs, because of a row over something called release process. In essence, the right to block the installation of applications with bad SQL was taken away. I raised my head, I spoke aloud and I was told not to expect bonus in this millennium and then, soon afterward, asked to accept a pay cut. So I left. So far, so good. I'm new at the company, I don't have enough business knowledge in this new line of work and the company is a well entrenched company with power players whose roles I don't understand quite yet. What happens, if I speak up? In this situation, I might find myself jobless, which would adversely affect my mortgage, my son's education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 10:48, Freeman Robert - IL wrote: Mladen, this is not directed specifically at you, but you have raised something in my mind that often just irritates the heck out of me. I often hear the term Damagement, damagers, etc... and I understand it, and have had more than a few occasions where a damager has killed me Management is far from perfect, and I've met a number of managers who deserve to be kicked in the back side and sent out on the street. Yet, I often also wonder how much of this is OUR OWN FAULT. How many IT guys have I met that are way to passive, more than content to sit in there cubes and blame management, when the fault, at least in part, lies squarely with them. More than I can count. Lack of communication, lack of passion for ones own work, lack of vision, contentment in not understanding the big picture, the I'm not paid to do this syndrome or the It's not my job POV all in my eyes lead to as much failure as management. The guys who will not get their lazy behinds out of their chairs and go TALK to someone (other than the really good looking blonde down the isle) deserve to have their head chopped off as much as the manager they can't stand. I've met so many who will sit in meetings and let managers say STUPID things, never correct, never interject and so the cycle of stupidity is perpetuated. Sure, there may be cultures that foster this type of behavior, but I see it in cultures that are quite open too. Bottom line is that we have to refuse to be silent. We must go out and take a stand, and take some risk. We must LEARN about more than how Oracle works, we must learn how the business works. Those who do this are the successful ones, and my observation is that I rarely hear them cussing management. This is usually because, they either change the world around them, or they move on to a place where they can be effective. My opinion, YMMV, Robert -Original Message- From: Mladen Gogala To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 10:14 AM Subject: Cary's book I enjoy immensely reading Cary's book, but I have some questions that I want to ask publicly. Recently, I made a comment about Chris Lawson's book being a Dale Carnegie book for a DBA and now I see that Cary is also advising feeding the hungry business users (buy him a sandwich). It is true that many problems are consequences of inadequate communication, general lack of business knowledge in the computer geek culture and even disdain for it, but, in my opinion, many problems are also a consequence of incompetent managers (damagers), office politics, and hard times. Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a performance tuning course (example from Chris Lawson's book), why bother reading and investing into myself? A cynical geekish attitude and the old boys network will do just as well. Characteristics of the performance analyst, as described in the book, are the ones of the field general (has the overview
RE: Cary's book
Let me clarify things further. In Cary's book, there is a part when he describes a meeting when a manager was saying things that were plain stupid and nobody would correct or interject his monologues. He further ruminates over that not being a proper way to handle a performance problem. Well, there are several things that are slightly out of touch with reality here. If you have a mean SOB of a boss, the first rule is that he's always right. The second rule is that in case of a doubt, the 1st rule applies. One does not correct people like that if he works for them. Cary, you and me are not in the same position. You are a big name consultant who also owns and manages a medium sized consulting company. You are a big name outsider who companies trust much more then their own employees and I am just a DBA, an expendable commodity which can be replaced by single call to recruiter. Wood work is not yet within my reach, my hobby is carrying 7x24 beeper. Finally, let me reiterate, the book is excellent, I enjoy reading it very much. As you can see, I did follow your advice and I did speak up. I'll reap my rewards in heaven or, hopefully, a hotsos clinic. On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:59, Bellow, Bambi wrote: This is a difficult question that I've had to face more than I would have liked in the past 2 years. The way to do it is to mark your prices down and say that comparing bang for the buck, you've got a bigger bang... and maybe they can squeeze out a better buck... and maybe they can't... but at least you can compete with people with little or no experience... OH, and all those phone calls you get from recruiters... return them all... every last one of them... and make friends with them... tell them you're an expensive commodity, but if they hear of anything you're always interested in looking around... because it is much better to leave on your own terms and go job to job than to let the market forces do their bit and be sitting between jobs for weeks and months, then settling for money you'd prefer not to settle for... HTH, Bambi. -Original Message- From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:40 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Cary's book That only works up to the point where they are willing to pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means that you are trainable. If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- From: Gudmundur Josepsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Cary's book Mladen, Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a If you know you're better than the bozo and that you can give people more value for their money then I think this is a marketing problem more than anything else. It's up to you to prove to the buyer (or your boss) that you can do the work better. Quantify your expected results. Chapter 4 has an excellent discussion on this. Gudmundur -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gudmundur Josepsson INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
RE: Cary's book
Freeman Robert - IL scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: Daniel, I agree 100% with what you said Somehow we must find a way to come out of our shell. I am among those coming out of my shell is HARD standing up at IOUG-A, or UKOUG or wherever and speaking to that room full of people is one of the hardest things I do. I just make myself... every year I force myself to submit those abstracts, because I know it helps me grow as a person. So, THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE NEVER DONE IT BEFORE, SIGN UP AND DO IT SO I DON'T HAVE TO :-D hey, i keep trying but they reject me. sniff, sniff they don't like me.;-) Like so many others here, I see the DBA life changing Like so many others, I've been doing it so long, that I'm starting to see that it's time for a change. maybe 5 years, maybe longer we will see. Am I the only one that this job tires and stresses out? :-) the problem is i've been doing it for so long i don't know how to do anything else. well, i do but the other skillset s not exactly socially acceptable.;-) and besides, when i solve a problem with an elegant solution, the rush is still there.;-) -- Bill Shrek Thater ORACLE DBA I'm going to work my ticket if I can... -- Gilwell song [EMAIL PROTECTED] My life is a simple thing that would interest no one. It is a known fact that I was born and that is all that is necessary. - Albert Einstein -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: The Increasingly Inaptly Named Cary's book Thread
your firedsecurity will be there pack up your things and escort you to your car -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L About 20 years ago, discussing this very trend, a friend mentioned that what we need is a computer professional union (CPU, we called it), but that geeks were disinclined to go that direction because we were a bunch of cowboys and wouldn't make personal sacrifices for common goals. Now that all the jobs are going offshore, what do you think? Is a DBA union even something that can be done? -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sorry for replying on your private email. Here it goes again: Robert, no doubt that what I called a geekish culture is at fault here, and to the large part, at that. Personally, I do speak up, may be even too loud. But consider this: I've recently changed jobs, because of a row over something called release process. In essence, the right to block the installation of applications with bad SQL was taken away. I raised my head, I spoke aloud and I was told not to expect bonus in this millennium and then, soon afterward, asked to accept a pay cut. So I left. So far, so good. I'm new at the company, I don't have enough business knowledge in this new line of work and the company is a well entrenched company with power players whose roles I don't understand quite yet. What happens, if I speak up? In this situation, I might find myself jobless, which would adversely affect my mortgage, my son's education and my life in general. No, until there aren't more jobs, I'll keep on the safe side. That's the part where crisis and CYA methodology jump in. I have no solution, but, unfortunately, I don't have Christ-like qualities that are asked from me in every new performance tuning book. And the blonde down the isle is so attractive. On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 10:48, Freeman Robert - IL wrote: Mladen, this is not directed specifically at you, but you have raised something in my mind that often just irritates the heck out of me. I often hear the term Damagement, damagers, etc... and I understand it, and have had more than a few occasions where a damager has killed me Management is far from perfect, and I've met a number of managers who deserve to be kicked in the back side and sent out on the street. Yet, I often also wonder how much of this is OUR OWN FAULT. How many IT guys have I met that are way to passive, more than content to sit in there cubes and blame management, when the fault, at least in part, lies squarely with them. More than I can count. Lack of communication, lack of passion for ones own work, lack of vision, contentment in not understanding the big picture, the I'm not paid to do this syndrome or the It's not my job POV all in my eyes lead to as much failure as management. The guys who will not get their lazy behinds out of their chairs and go TALK to someone (other than the really good looking blonde down the isle) deserve to have their head chopped off as much as the manager they can't stand. I've met so many who will sit in meetings and let managers say STUPID things, never correct, never interject and so the cycle of stupidity is perpetuated. Sure, there may be cultures that foster this type of behavior, but I see it in cultures that are quite open too. Bottom line is that we have to refuse to be silent. We must go out and take a stand, and take some risk. We must LEARN about more than how Oracle works, we must learn how the business works. Those who do this are the successful ones, and my observation is that I rarely hear them cussing management. This is usually because, they either change the world around them, or they move on to a place where they can be effective. My opinion, YMMV, Robert -Original Message- From: Mladen Gogala To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 10:14 AM Subject: Cary's book I enjoy immensely reading Cary's book, but I have some questions that I want to ask publicly. Recently, I made a comment about Chris Lawson's book being a Dale Carnegie book for a DBA and now I see that Cary is also advising feeding the hungry business users (buy him a sandwich). It is true that many problems are consequences of inadequate communication, general lack of business knowledge in the computer geek culture and even disdain for it, but, in my opinion, many problems are also a consequence of incompetent managers (damagers), office politics, and hard times. Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a performance tuning course (example from Chris Lawson's book), why bother reading and investing into myself? A cynical
RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
7 cats, 3 dogs and kittens on the way! -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ah, yes... No kids here, but I do have pet potbellied pigs to support. Anyone have more than 2? ;) Dan Brian Dunbar wrote: Freeman Robert - IL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? I've six here. ~brian -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Bellow, Bambi INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
Very interesting and relevant discussion. One point that stands out is that we must make ourselves valuable to the business we work for. If we don't, then we're just too easy to replace. My manager ( who is definitely *not* a damager, thank goodnes ) has made me the IT lead for Sarbanes Oxley. At the moment that is fairly straight forward, as it is a relatively small, but expensive, application for tracking financial info. ( it also unfortunately runs on SQL Server ). In the near future though, the SarbOx requirements will involve integration with the financial systems ( which are on Oracle ) and real time or near real time reporting. This is going to be a very big deal. I see this as an opportunity to make myself more valuable to the company, and intend to take advantage of it. Jared Daniel Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/2003 10:39 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT Ah, yes... No kids here, but I do have pet potbellied pigs to support. Anyone have more than 2? ;) Dan Brian Dunbar wrote: Freeman Robert - IL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? I've six here. ~brian -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). daniel.fink.vcf Description: Binary data
Re: Cary's book
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:54, Daniel Fink wrote: Robert, training, OCPs/OCMs, etc, but how many of us have taken a corporate communication class or engaged a business/personal coach? I've actually taken Dale-Carnegie class. You can judge my success by my emails. Introvert is one thing I've never been. Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
Reply is inline. On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 14:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very interesting and relevant discussion. A good one for Friday. TGIF. I see this as an opportunity to make myself more valuable to the company, and intend to take advantage of it. Jared, you are valuable to us, ORACLE-L list members. In fact, you are priceless. For everybody else, there is MasterCard(TM). Have a good weekend! Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
Title: RE: Cary's book HEY... I took those classes. Didn't help a wit. I REMEMBER one of the laws... but it is just SO hard.. Don't criticize, condemn or complain. April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- From: Mladen Gogala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:35 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Cary's book On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:54, Daniel Fink wrote: Robert, training, OCPs/OCMs, etc, but how many of us have taken a corporate communication class or engaged a business/personal coach? I've actually taken Dale-Carnegie class. You can judge my success by my emails. Introvert is one thing I've never been. Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, distribution, dissemination, use, or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete this communication, and destroy all copies. Corporate Systems, Inc. has taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. We specifically disclaim all liability and will accept no responsibility for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advise you to carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
RE: Cary's book
Title: RE: Cary's book -Original Message-From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Cary's book If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line?[Shrek] and how do you market yourself when you don't have a degree or OCP, just a lot of experience. that's IF you can get through the screeners. my pet peeve is not being given credit for the hard work i put in to keep up with all the latest changes even is i don't have a degree or OCP. hell i still have a brain and i know how to use it. -- Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA "I'm going to work my ticket if I can..." -- Gilwell song [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The ordinary is a doorway into the extraordinary. Each aspect of the world offers potential entry into nirvana, into a glimpse of freedom beyond the concerns of self-clinging." Lama John Makransky
Re: RE: Cary's book
experience is far more important than the OCP and degrees. In a tight market there are multiple people with experience and degrees. To be fair, experience is more important than skill. Employers often assume that someoen with alot of experience has alot of skill. We have all worked with people with 10-15 years of experience who have opened a book in years and still use things from a decade ago. From: Thater, William [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/03 Fri PM 02:54:25 EDT To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Cary's book -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? [Shrek] and how do you market yourself when you don't have a degree or OCP, just a lot of experience. that's IF you can get through the screeners. my pet peeve is not being given credit for the hard work i put in to keep up with all the latest changes even is i don't have a degree or OCP. hell i still have a brain and i know how to use it. -- Bill Shrek Thater ORACLE DBA I'm going to work my ticket if I can... -- Gilwell song [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The ordinary is a doorway into the extraordinary. Each aspect of the world offers potential entry into nirvana, into a glimpse of freedom beyond the concerns of self-clinging. Lama John Makransky Title: RE: Cary's book -Original Message-From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Cary's book If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line?[Shrek] and how do you market yourself when you don't have a degree or OCP, just a lot of experience. that's IF you can get through the screeners. my pet peeve is not being given credit for the hard work i put in to keep up with all the latest changes even is i don't have a degree or OCP. hell i still have a brain and i know how to use it. -- Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA "I'm going to work my ticket if I can..." -- Gilwell song [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The ordinary is a doorway into the extraordinary. Each aspect of the world offers potential entry into nirvana, into a glimpse of freedom beyond the concerns of self-clinging." Lama John Makransky
RE: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
OH NO!!! 7 cats, 3 dogs and kittens on the way! reminds me of Ghostbusters: Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportion. Mayor: What do you mean, biblical? Dr. Raymond Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff. Fires and brimstone coming down from the sky, rivers and seas boiling-- Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes-- Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the graves! Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria! -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 12:54 PM 7 cats, 3 dogs and kittens on the way! -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ah, yes... No kids here, but I do have pet potbellied pigs to support. Anyone have more than 2? ;) Dan Brian Dunbar wrote: Freeman Robert - IL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? I've six here. ~brian -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Bellow, Bambi INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Freeman Robert - IL INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
If you have a mean SOB of a boss, the first rule is that he's always right. The second rule is that in case of a doubt, the 1st rule applies. I disagree, and most strongly. If you are a newbie, no experience type, then by all means SIT DOWN, SHUT UP and LISTEN. If, on the other hand, you are experienced then you have to have principal. Even employees can become respected and trusted if they: 1. Stand up for what is right 100% of the time. 2. Stick only to the facts. This is a big one. Often it comes down to conjecture or opinion, and in that case, you are correct, you will always loose to the boss. It's been my experience that if you stick to the facts, that you generally win much more often. Also, eventually, people outside your boss will start respecting you. That can be worth a great deal during battles. 3. Become politically savy. I know, politics, blah but they are a reality. You need to gather your forces for the fight and to support you during the battles. IMHO, do these things and you end up with a job that is much better than it might otherwhise be. My opinion... Robert -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 10/3/2003 12:44 PM Let me clarify things further. In Cary's book, there is a part when he describes a meeting when a manager was saying things that were plain stupid and nobody would correct or interject his monologues. He further ruminates over that not being a proper way to handle a performance problem. Well, there are several things that are slightly out of touch with reality here. If you have a mean SOB of a boss, the first rule is that he's always right. The second rule is that in case of a doubt, the 1st rule applies. One does not correct people like that if he works for them. Cary, you and me are not in the same position. You are a big name consultant who also owns and manages a medium sized consulting company. You are a big name outsider who companies trust much more then their own employees and I am just a DBA, an expendable commodity which can be replaced by single call to recruiter. Wood work is not yet within my reach, my hobby is carrying 7x24 beeper. Finally, let me reiterate, the book is excellent, I enjoy reading it very much. As you can see, I did follow your advice and I did speak up. I'll reap my rewards in heaven or, hopefully, a hotsos clinic. On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:59, Bellow, Bambi wrote: This is a difficult question that I've had to face more than I would have liked in the past 2 years. The way to do it is to mark your prices down and say that comparing bang for the buck, you've got a bigger bang... and maybe they can squeeze out a better buck... and maybe they can't... but at least you can compete with people with little or no experience... OH, and all those phone calls you get from recruiters... return them all... every last one of them... and make friends with them... tell them you're an expensive commodity, but if they hear of anything you're always interested in looking around... because it is much better to leave on your own terms and go job to job than to let the market forces do their bit and be sitting between jobs for weeks and months, then settling for money you'd prefer not to settle for... HTH, Bambi. -Original Message- From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:40 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Cary's book That only works up to the point where they are willing to pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means that you are trainable. If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- From: Gudmundur Josepsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Cary's book Mladen, Hard times present problems because people do not want
RE: Cary's book
Bill - Well you could get their attention by crashing a hummer into their building. JUST KIDDING. Actually, I think the book for you might be What Color is Your Parachute. The system is set up to favor someone with the right experience and credentials and age. There are many people that don't fit this scheme. So you need to get creative, and this book offers many suggestions. And most of us have probably faced a career change sometime. Aside from those list members that can argue the merits of Oracle 5 compared to Oracle 4. Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? [Shrek] and how do you market yourself when you don't have a degree or OCP, just a lot of experience. that's IF you can get through the screeners. my pet peeve is not being given credit for the hard work i put in to keep up with all the latest changes even is i don't have a degree or OCP. hell i still have a brain and i know how to use it. -- Bill Shrek Thater ORACLE DBA I'm going to work my ticket if I can... -- Gilwell song [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The ordinary is a doorway into the extraordinary. Each aspect of the world offers potential entry into nirvana, into a glimpse of freedom beyond the concerns of self-clinging. Lama John Makransky -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book - Waxing philosophic
Since everyone is jumping on this non technical thread I thought I would too... Certainly the first chapter was fresh and brought some aspects of performance tuning into perspective. Specifically keeping a big picture perspectivehow true... in that vein I ask.. Why do we do the work we do...?? Is it because you are good at it and pride yourself on being the alpha-geek? Do you use it as an excuse to hide from society behind a curtain of arcane technology? Are you in it for the money and bennies? The power. Holding all the keys so to speak... Something to keep you busy? Free trips to go to training...? Tote bags, t-shirts, candy and fancy pens from conferences? (My daughter's favorite) Or as Mayo saidI got no place else to go! Whatever the reason Important facts about IT work remain... 1. What you know will be mostly useless in five years. 2. What you are working on now will be mostly replaced or scrapped in five years. 3. You aren't mostly sure if you will still be working here in five years. 4. If you look back at yourself five years ago, you laugh at how silly you were. 5. Five years from now you'll look back and laugh at how silly you were. 6. In five years today's new IT books can bought for 1$. Despite that you get up each morning, go to work, tune SQL queries, set up databases, file TARS, bitch at oracle, bitch at Microsoft, argue with developers, management and run ragged to keep the users happy because heaven forbid if their crappy queries run a second or two slow. We do it because it is good work, for the most part, if we keep things in perspective. (that is my struggle) As Robert said...some battles are best left unfought (or at least given some attention) For me, the most important struggle to remember is the one that defines your life. At the end the worst thing imaginable is to realize a wasted life, one that only enriched your pocket book rather than enriching the lives of others. Experiences passed by because of priorities and some misplaced loyalty to someone or something that makes you work weekends or travel 80% of the time is not healthy. In the end no one will really care or remember that you or I was a DBA. They will remember who you were as a person. Completely understanding the intricacies of database performance rank rather low on my priorities in life (when 80-90% of performance problems are caused by something other than the database). It is refreshing to hear people defining themselves as something other than a DBA...a parent, spouse, friend of cats, dogs and little pigs... Brad O. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Odland, Brad INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
I have often wondered if the problems between DBAs and management stem from mutual disrespect. The manager feels awkward in being forced to hire an expert in an area he/she knows nothing about. Tries to make suggestions in order to flush out whether this expert really knows anything. The DBA feels like people that have no concept of databases are making dumb suggestions or even orders. Feels his/her expertise is being questioned by an idiot. You can see how this can easily spiral into mutual disrespect. And since a veteran DBA has experienced this situation before, it is easy to fall into a familiar behavior pattern. And an experienced manager who has been forced to deal with DBAs before starts the relationship braced for the expected sharp looks and sharper comments. A few years ago being an experienced DBA was a valuable commodity and we really enjoyed that. But the managers were very frustrated by having to search hard for a DBA, pay spiraling salary demands, etc. I think some managers look on these times as their revenge. What some DBAs see as pay cuts the managers see as a return to sanity. Can anyone relate to this scenario? Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:44 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Let me clarify things further. In Cary's book, there is a part when he describes a meeting when a manager was saying things that were plain stupid and nobody would correct or interject his monologues. He further ruminates over that not being a proper way to handle a performance problem. Well, there are several things that are slightly out of touch with reality here. If you have a mean SOB of a boss, the first rule is that he's always right. The second rule is that in case of a doubt, the 1st rule applies. One does not correct people like that if he works for them. Cary, you and me are not in the same position. You are a big name consultant who also owns and manages a medium sized consulting company. You are a big name outsider who companies trust much more then their own employees and I am just a DBA, an expendable commodity which can be replaced by single call to recruiter. Wood work is not yet within my reach, my hobby is carrying 7x24 beeper. Finally, let me reiterate, the book is excellent, I enjoy reading it very much. As you can see, I did follow your advice and I did speak up. I'll reap my rewards in heaven or, hopefully, a hotsos clinic. On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:59, Bellow, Bambi wrote: This is a difficult question that I've had to face more than I would have liked in the past 2 years. The way to do it is to mark your prices down and say that comparing bang for the buck, you've got a bigger bang... and maybe they can squeeze out a better buck... and maybe they can't... but at least you can compete with people with little or no experience... OH, and all those phone calls you get from recruiters... return them all... every last one of them... and make friends with them... tell them you're an expensive commodity, but if they hear of anything you're always interested in looking around... because it is much better to leave on your own terms and go job to job than to let the market forces do their bit and be sitting between jobs for weeks and months, then settling for money you'd prefer not to settle for... HTH, Bambi. -Original Message- From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:40 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Cary's book That only works up to the point where they are willing to pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means that you are trainable. If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- From: Gudmundur Josepsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Re: Cary's book
Title: RE: Cary's book The only way you can look bad to the bottom line is if what you charge for your work costs more than the business gains by what you have done/are going to do. If you spend 40 hours shaving 5 minutes off of a 4 hour batch job that has a 5 hour window to run then you're bad for the bottom line. Nothing is really gained. If, in 40 hours,you reduce an online query that is run hundreds or thousands of times each day from 10 to 5 seconds so that the company can process twice as many orders then you're the hero. If not having OCP is a problem then go get it. It's easy. If you don't believe that the Oracle exams stand for anything useful then buy the practice exams from SelfTest or find the braindumps and finish it in a month or two. No matter how good you are or what you can do, if the other guy is getting the job because of his OCP then you've lost because your marketing has failed. He knows what the buyer wants and gives it to him. I'm not so sure that Ingres was an inferior product to Oracle back in the early eighties but Oracle had this guy called Larry Ellison who knew something about marketing. Is Ingres still alive today? Gudmundur - Original Message - From: Thater, William To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 6:54 PM Subject: RE: Cary's book -Original Message-From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: Cary's book If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line?[Shrek] and how do you market yourself when you don't have a degree or OCP, just a lot of experience. that's IF you can get through the screeners. my pet peeve is not being given credit for the hard work i put in to keep up with all the latest changes even is i don't have a degree or OCP. hell i still have a brain and i know how to use it. -- Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA "I'm going to work my ticket if I can..." -- Gilwell song [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The ordinary is a doorway into the extraordinary. Each aspect of the world offers potential entry into nirvana, into a glimpse of freedom beyond the concerns of self-clinging." Lama John Makransky
Re: Cary's book
training, OCPs/OCMs, etc, but how many of us have taken a corporate communication class or engaged a business/personal coach? I've taken several. Citibank was good about training people to deal with people. --- Daniel Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, Well said. I think the problem goes farther back than just us sitting in our cubes. I hate to stereotype, but there is some truth in saying that 'geeks' tend to be somewhat introverted, where many in management are somewhat extroverted. This year's IOUG-A Live was a great example. Here we all are, the best and brightest in the world of Oracle, walking the halls, having intense conversations. In the midst of it all, a pharmecutical sales convention starts sharing our hallways. Talk about polar opposites! It reminded me of high school with the 'serious' students and the popular crowd. Is this any different than work? Especially those people who work in non-IT companies. We all focus on training, OCPs/OCMs, etc, but how many of us have taken a corporate communication class or engaged a business/personal coach? As for management, I've had great ones and god-awful ones. One manager tore me a new one because I explained that one of our systems was 5 minutes behind the others (in explaining the entries in a log file). I've also had ones that would step up to bat for you, even when they could easily justify the opposite. You have to figure out the political landscape, find the mines in the battlefield and step carefully. We can no longer sit in our cubes, writing complex C programs, laughing at the foibles of 'damagement' and 'lusers'. We have to find a way to integrate ourselves into the business. It's not that you have to agree 100% with what is done. If you are going to disagree, do so respectfully and with proper reasoning and documentation. Communication is composed of two pieces, what you say and what the other person hears. As for the geek work, there will always be places for those who excel at something. More appropriately, they will have a place if they can make their skills relevant. This requires understanding the bits and bytes, AND being able to put that into the context of the business need. I've enjoyed the past few years really exploring UNDO, but it is really irrelevant in the business world I live in. What is relevant here? Well, that's my next big project. I'll still be hacking away at Oracle, learning how it REALLY works, doing things that they say should/could not be done. But my goal is to make myself more proficient in a skill that will benefit the organization. My $0.03 (I'm a little long winded today...) Daniel Fink Freeman Robert - IL wrote: Mladen, this is not directed specifically at you, but you have raised something in my mind that often just irritates the heck out of me. I often hear the term Damagement, damagers, etc... and I understand it, and have had more than a few occasions where a damager has killed me Management is far from perfect, and I've met a number of managers who deserve to be kicked in the back side and sent out on the street. Yet, I often also wonder how much of this is OUR OWN FAULT. How many IT guys have I met that are way to passive, more than content to sit in there cubes and blame management, when the fault, at least in part, lies squarely with them. More than I can count. Lack of communication, lack of passion for ones own work, lack of vision, contentment in not understanding the big picture, the I'm not paid to do this syndrome or the It's not my job POV all in my eyes lead to as much failure as management. The guys who will not get their lazy behinds out of their chairs and go TALK to someone (other than the really good looking blonde down the isle) deserve to have their head chopped off as much as the manager they can't stand. I've met so many who will sit in meetings and let managers say STUPID things, never correct, never interject and so the cycle of stupidity is perpetuated. Sure, there may be cultures that foster this type of behavior, but I see it in cultures that are quite open too. Bottom line is that we have to refuse to be silent. We must go out and take a stand, and take some risk. We must LEARN about more than how Oracle works, we must learn how the business works. Those who do this are the successful ones, and my observation is that I rarely hear them cussing management. This is usually because, they either change the world around them, or they move on to a place where they can be effective. My opinion, YMMV, Robert begin:vcard n:Fink;Daniel x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Sun Microsystems, Inc. adr:;; version:2.1 title:Lead, Database Services x-mozilla-cpt:;9168 fn:Daniel W. Fink end:vcard __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
RE: Cary's book
Guys, Very impressive discussion. Here's the bottom-line. We cannot afford to be technically efficient/competent without also understanding the politics of the organization we work in. As DBA's we cannot just manage the backups, maintenance, tuning - nor can we ignore the applications we support - COTS or otherwise. We have to provide value-added in matching business issues with technical solutions. We need to work with the project managers to ensuring the systems are successful with a lot of compromising on how we can do that. On the otherhand I keep waiting for my dad to make it big in the Herbalife business -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:44 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Let me clarify things further. In Cary's book, there is a part when he describes a meeting when a manager was saying things that were plain stupid and nobody would correct or interject his monologues. He further ruminates over that not being a proper way to handle a performance problem. Well, there are several things that are slightly out of touch with reality here. If you have a mean SOB of a boss, the first rule is that he's always right. The second rule is that in case of a doubt, the 1st rule applies. One does not correct people like that if he works for them. Cary, you and me are not in the same position. You are a big name consultant who also owns and manages a medium sized consulting company. You are a big name outsider who companies trust much more then their own employees and I am just a DBA, an expendable commodity which can be replaced by single call to recruiter. Wood work is not yet within my reach, my hobby is carrying 7x24 beeper. Finally, let me reiterate, the book is excellent, I enjoy reading it very much. As you can see, I did follow your advice and I did speak up. I'll reap my rewards in heaven or, hopefully, a hotsos clinic. On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:59, Bellow, Bambi wrote: This is a difficult question that I've had to face more than I would have liked in the past 2 years. The way to do it is to mark your prices down and say that comparing bang for the buck, you've got a bigger bang... and maybe they can squeeze out a better buck... and maybe they can't... but at least you can compete with people with little or no experience... OH, and all those phone calls you get from recruiters... return them all... every last one of them... and make friends with them... tell them you're an expensive commodity, but if they hear of anything you're always interested in looking around... because it is much better to leave on your own terms and go job to job than to let the market forces do their bit and be sitting between jobs for weeks and months, then settling for money you'd prefer not to settle for... HTH, Bambi. -Original Message- From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:40 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Cary's book That only works up to the point where they are willing to pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means that you are trainable. If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- From: Gudmundur Josepsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Cary's book Mladen, Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a If you know you're better than the bozo and that you can give people more value for their money then I think this is a marketing problem more than anything else. It's up
RE: Cary's book - Waxing philosophic
In the end... They will remember who you were as a person. Hmmm... Is there a certification test I can take to prove I'm a real live boy. Pinocchio -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:29 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Since everyone is jumping on this non technical thread I thought I would too... Certainly the first chapter was fresh and brought some aspects of performance tuning into perspective. Specifically keeping a big picture perspectivehow true... in that vein I ask.. Why do we do the work we do...?? Is it because you are good at it and pride yourself on being the alpha-geek? Do you use it as an excuse to hide from society behind a curtain of arcane technology? Are you in it for the money and bennies? The power. Holding all the keys so to speak... Something to keep you busy? Free trips to go to training...? Tote bags, t-shirts, candy and fancy pens from conferences? (My daughter's favorite) Or as Mayo saidI got no place else to go! Whatever the reason Important facts about IT work remain... 1. What you know will be mostly useless in five years. 2. What you are working on now will be mostly replaced or scrapped in five years. 3. You aren't mostly sure if you will still be working here in five years. 4. If you look back at yourself five years ago, you laugh at how silly you were. 5. Five years from now you'll look back and laugh at how silly you were. 6. In five years today's new IT books can bought for 1$. Despite that you get up each morning, go to work, tune SQL queries, set up databases, file TARS, bitch at oracle, bitch at Microsoft, argue with developers, management and run ragged to keep the users happy because heaven forbid if their crappy queries run a second or two slow. We do it because it is good work, for the most part, if we keep things in perspective. (that is my struggle) As Robert said...some battles are best left unfought (or at least given some attention) For me, the most important struggle to remember is the one that defines your life. At the end the worst thing imaginable is to realize a wasted life, one that only enriched your pocket book rather than enriching the lives of others. Experiences passed by because of priorities and some misplaced loyalty to someone or something that makes you work weekends or travel 80% of the time is not healthy. In the end no one will really care or remember that you or I was a DBA. They will remember who you were as a person. Completely understanding the intricacies of database performance rank rather low on my priorities in life (when 80-90% of performance problems are caused by something other than the database). It is refreshing to hear people defining themselves as something other than a DBA...a parent, spouse, friend of cats, dogs and little pigs... Brad O. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Orr, Steve INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
further. In Cary's book, there is a part when he describes a meeting when a manager was saying things that were plain stupid and nobody would correct or interject his monologues. He further ruminates over that not being a proper way to handle a performance problem. Well, there are several things that are slightly out of touch with reality here. If you have a mean SOB of a boss, the first rule is that he's always right. The second rule is that in case of a doubt, the 1st rule applies. One does not correct people like that if he works for them. Cary, you and me are not in the same position. You are a big name consultant who also owns and manages a medium sized consulting company. You are a big name outsider who companies trust much more then their own employees and I am just a DBA, an expendable commodity which can be replaced by single call to recruiter. Wood work is not yet within my reach, my hobby is carrying 7x24 beeper. Finally, let me reiterate, the book is excellent, I enjoy reading it very much. As you can see, I did follow your advice and I did speak up. I'll reap my rewards in heaven or, hopefully, a hotsos clinic. On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:59, Bellow, Bambi wrote: This is a difficult question that I've had to face more than I would have liked in the past 2 years. The way to do it is to mark your prices down and say that comparing bang for the buck, you've got a bigger bang... and maybe they can squeeze out a better buck... and maybe they can't... but at least you can compete with people with little or no experience... OH, and all those phone calls you get from recruiters... return them all... every last one of them... and make friends with them... tell them you're an expensive commodity, but if they hear of anything you're always interested in looking around... because it is much better to leave on your own terms and go job to job than to let the market forces do their bit and be sitting between jobs for weeks and months, then settling for money you'd prefer not to settle for... HTH, Bambi. -Original Message- From: April Wells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:40 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Cary's book That only works up to the point where they are willing to pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means that you are trainable. If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when you look bad to the bottom line? April Wells Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA Corporate Systems Amarillo Texas /\ / \ / \ \ / \/ \ \ \ \ Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite Adam Wells age 11 -Original Message- From: Gudmundur Josepsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: Cary's book Mladen, Hard times present problems because people do not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a shaman or a witch doctor who improves on the system based on snake oil type techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after a If you know you're better than the bozo and that you can give people more value for their money then I think this is a marketing problem more than anything else. It's up to you to prove to the buyer (or your boss) that you can do the work better. Quantify your expected results. Chapter 4 has an excellent discussion on this. Gudmundur -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gudmundur Josepsson INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note
RE: Cary's book
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 15:29, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: The manager feels awkward in being forced to hire an expert in an area he/she knows nothing about. Tries to make suggestions in order to flush out whether this expert really knows anything. And you call a guy who makes suggestions about something he knows nothing about inexperienced? Nice euphemism, sort of reminds me on my 1st working day in US, when I went to the admin who had the keys of the stationary (and she was a young and attractive female, which is important for the further story development) and asked her for a rubber, instead of eraser. In the English language they taught me at school, that little rubbery implement used to erase what someone has written down was known as rubber. I was extremely annoyed by her reaction (she was actually shocked and started speaking very fast, so that the only words I was able to discern were sexual harassment) and I didn't think much of her, to say the least. Today I dread to even think what did she think of me. A DBA manager who doesn't know anything of a database is, essentially, in the very same position as a big east European klutz in desperate need of office stuff. Inexperienced isn't the word I'd use to describe him. Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book[Scanned]
A few years ago being an experienced DBA was a valuable commodity and we really enjoyed that. But the managers were very frustrated by having to search hard for a DBA, pay spiraling salary demands, etc. I think some managers look on these times as their revenge. What some DBAs see as pay cuts the managers see as a return to sanity. Can anyone relate to this scenario? # Well, they may have their revenge now, (I certainly see that every day where I am for the past year or so) although I'm confident the tides will turn and we techies will once again rise. What gets my gall is, so many managers think short term and would sell their own mother if it meant one more step up the ladder for then, while people like us pride ourselves on something solid like real skills, knowledge and experience that make the actual wheels turn. We can't cook the books like we have seen from our 'leadership'. That level of 'business skill' makes me sick. Now our field is a primary victim of their short sightedness and greed. Oh sure... we are overpaid... right. It's an easy target but invalid and no doubt time will prove that. Its funny, I attended the recent NYOUG (Rachael where were you???g) and Oracle was spouting about 10g being a one click install, everything self managing, self tuning..., self installing, I mean that's laughable!!! Sure it will seem/ sold as self managing... but how does one know what *IS* managed and what to to do in the event the wizard fails grin? It's just marketing for the times. As soon as this economy gets on its feet And it will get back, all this will be behind us and nothing but the lowest level work will be outsourced... The times they will be a changing TGIF!! Bob -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Bob Metelsky INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 15:49, Rachel Carmichael wrote: I've taken several. Citibank was good about training people to deal with people. Navy seals do that as well. Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book - Waxing philosophic
Odland, Brad scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon: Why do we do the work we do...?? because after 35 years of programming, database design and development and DBA work, when i get to solve the problem in an elegant manor the rush is still there. -- Bill Shrek Thater ORACLE DBA I'm going to work my ticket if I can... -- Gilwell song [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scitum est inter caecos luscum regnare posse. It is well known, that among the blind the one-eyed man is king. - Gerard Didier Erasmus -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Thater, William INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book - Waxing philosophic
As Robert said...some battles are best left unfought (or at least given some attention) Or, as some of us in the Southern U.S. would say: A dog will whip a skunk every time. But sometimes, it's not worth the stink. Gotta love OT Fridays. :) Brian - | Brian McGraw -+- Senior DBA | | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | - -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian McGraw INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book[Scanned]
management here doesn't believe in time off for user group meetings. which is sort of to the point of this discussion. They want me to be up to speed on all the latest, greatest, bells and whistles of Oracle but they won't give me the time or money for the acquisition of that knowledge. --- Bob Metelsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few years ago being an experienced DBA was a valuable commodity and we really enjoyed that. But the managers were very frustrated by having to search hard for a DBA, pay spiraling salary demands, etc. I think some managers look on these times as their revenge. What some DBAs see as pay cuts the managers see as a return to sanity. Can anyone relate to this scenario? # Well, they may have their revenge now, (I certainly see that every day where I am for the past year or so) although I'm confident the tides will turn and we techies will once again rise. What gets my gall is, so many managers think short term and would sell their own mother if it meant one more step up the ladder for then, while people like us pride ourselves on something solid like real skills, knowledge and experience that make the actual wheels turn. We can't cook the books like we have seen from our 'leadership'. That level of 'business skill' makes me sick. Now our field is a primary victim of their short sightedness and greed. Oh sure... we are overpaid... right. It's an easy target but invalid and no doubt time will prove that. Its funny, I attended the recent NYOUG (Rachael where were you???g) and Oracle was spouting about 10g being a one click install, everything self managing, self tuning..., self installing, I mean that's laughable!!! Sure it will seem/ sold as self managing... but how does one know what *IS* managed and what to to do in the event the wizard fails grin? It's just marketing for the times. As soon as this economy gets on its feet And it will get back, all this will be behind us and nothing but the lowest level work will be outsourced... The times they will be a changing TGIF!! Bob -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Bob Metelsky INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
Mladen Well, from the manager's point of view it probably seems like challenging your knowledge, but that isn't my usual reaction. Just ask my boss. But my point is that when the secretary misunderstood you, your reaction at the time probably wasn't sincere sympathy for her plight. With years of distance you are probably able to laugh at it. Well, being a manager means that you must often deal with issues you have little experience in. We've probably all had managers that didn't understand DBA work but could still work past that and make us productive. And then we've had klutzes that couldn't. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:00 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 15:29, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: The manager feels awkward in being forced to hire an expert in an area he/she knows nothing about. Tries to make suggestions in order to flush out whether this expert really knows anything. And you call a guy who makes suggestions about something he knows nothing about inexperienced? Nice euphemism, sort of reminds me on my 1st working day in US, when I went to the admin who had the keys of the stationary (and she was a young and attractive female, which is important for the further story development) and asked her for a rubber, instead of eraser. In the English language they taught me at school, that little rubbery implement used to erase what someone has written down was known as rubber. I was extremely annoyed by her reaction (she was actually shocked and started speaking very fast, so that the only words I was able to discern were sexual harassment) and I didn't think much of her, to say the least. Today I dread to even think what did she think of me. A DBA manager who doesn't know anything of a database is, essentially, in the very same position as a big east European klutz in desperate need of office stuff. Inexperienced isn't the word I'd use to describe him. Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book[Scanned]
I can get the time off but they will not pay for anything out-of-state. in-state, I have to repay every cent spent if I leave before 365 days of the expendature. That is if you can get any training approved. I usually spend my own buck$ if I can afford it. Ron mª¿ªm [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/03 04:34PM management here doesn't believe in time off for user group meetings. which is sort of to the point of this discussion. They want me to be up to speed on all the latest, greatest, bells and whistles of Oracle but they won't give me the time or money for the acquisition of that knowledge. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Ron Rogers INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book - Waxing philosophic
Reminds me of another reason managers despise DBAs. I would venture to guess that the better DBAs have a pretty good I.Q. score. Sometimes that produces a love-hate relationship. They want to hire someone smart, but are irritated about having a smartie around. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As Robert said...some battles are best left unfought (or at least given some attention) Or, as some of us in the Southern U.S. would say: A dog will whip a skunk every time. But sometimes, it's not worth the stink. Gotta love OT Fridays. :) Brian - | Brian McGraw -+- Senior DBA | | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | - -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian McGraw INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book - Waxing philosophic
It's definitely time for this thread to go OT. Thanks, Jared Brian McGraw [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/2003 01:34 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: Cary's book - Waxing philosophic As Robert said...some battles are best left unfought (or at least given some attention) Or, as some of us in the Southern U.S. would say: A dog will whip a skunk every time. But sometimes, it's not worth the stink. Gotta love OT Fridays. :) Brian - | Brian McGraw -+- Senior DBA | | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | - -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian McGraw INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Cary's book
Probably time for this thread to go OT. Thanks Jared DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/2003 01:44 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: Cary's book Mladen Well, from the manager's point of view it probably seems like challenging your knowledge, but that isn't my usual reaction. Just ask my boss. But my point is that when the secretary misunderstood you, your reaction at the time probably wasn't sincere sympathy for her plight. With years of distance you are probably able to laugh at it. Well, being a manager means that you must often deal with issues you have little experience in. We've probably all had managers that didn't understand DBA work but could still work past that and make us productive. And then we've had klutzes that couldn't. Dennis Williams DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:00 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 15:29, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: The manager feels awkward in being forced to hire an expert in an area he/she knows nothing about. Tries to make suggestions in order to flush out whether this expert really knows anything. And you call a guy who makes suggestions about something he knows nothing about inexperienced? Nice euphemism, sort of reminds me on my 1st working day in US, when I went to the admin who had the keys of the stationary (and she was a young and attractive female, which is important for the further story development) and asked her for a rubber, instead of eraser. In the English language they taught me at school, that little rubbery implement used to erase what someone has written down was known as rubber. I was extremely annoyed by her reaction (she was actually shocked and started speaking very fast, so that the only words I was able to discern were sexual harassment) and I didn't think much of her, to say the least. Today I dread to even think what did she think of me. A DBA manager who doesn't know anything of a database is, essentially, in the very same position as a big east European klutz in desperate need of office stuff. Inexperienced isn't the word I'd use to describe him. Note: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. Wang Trading LLC and any of its subsidiaries each reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Cary's book - Rapidly moving OT....
I can smell your house. I have 2 cats. Bellow, Bambi wrote: 7 cats, 3 dogs and kittens on the way! -Original Message- Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Ah, yes... No kids here, but I do have pet potbellied pigs to support. Anyone have more than 2? ;) Dan Brian Dunbar wrote: Freeman Robert - IL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Friday, October 03, 2003 12:09 PM Well I've brought my share of children into the world, thats for sure I'd wager I have more than just about anyone else here on Oracle-L in fact... Anyone have more than 5?? I've six here. ~brian -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Brian Dunbar INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Bellow, Bambi INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Joan Hsieh INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
