Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Thanks to everyone who gave me information and advice, you have helped me to make a decision. As the K20D is still a bit expensive for me, I have ordered a lightly used K10D Grand Prix Edition and I am looking forward to its arrival. It comes with a DA 18-55 mm. which I don't need, as I already have one. Is anyone interested in buying such lens (LN, boxed) for 50 euros plus shipping expenses? Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
On 25/02/08, Stan Halpin, discombobulated, unleashed: All other things equal, I would probably wait for prices to come down when they announce the next camera (and use some frequent-flyer miles to go watch Cotty do his thing with his hat.) Stan, it's worrying that your government has so many dreamers working for it !! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Boris Liberman escribió: Carlos, I agree with Godfrey to that end that the precision of exposure matters more and more as ISO grows. Generally I shoot between ISO 100 and ISO 320. I used to avoid ISO 640 and up but most recent shooting during that rock show proved me wrong. I have received some quite good shots IQ-wise. It also depends on the mastery of post-processing, which of course is a limitless sky. Thanks Boris and Godfrey for your comments on high ISO and the K10D. I sometimes use ISO 800 (and sparsely 1600) with the DS when I'm shooting indoors in order to get enough shutter speed to avoid camera shake. Results at 800 are really good, the DS shines at that ISO speed, and they are good at 1600 if correctly exposed like you say. The K10D has the advantage to allow the user to select the ISO speed in finer steps, and that sounds attractive to me. I am more and more inclined to get a K10D because know it can be bought new at very good prices, in fact it is the biggest bargain in the market now, in my view. It won't be as hot as the K20D, but I think it may serve me well in the years to come. Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Carlos, you may have not to wait too long if you wanna buy a K10D new. You are not the only one wanting to snam a pretty nice deal out of K10D lasting stock. Second hand should OK, sourcing from the guys ditching the K10D for a K20D ;) -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- Photo: K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... Thinkpad: X23+UB,X60+UB Programing: D7 user (trying out D2007) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
On Feb 25, 2008, at 9:34, Thibouille wrote: Second hand should OK, sourcing from the guys ditching the K10D for a K20D ;) ...which is my plan, at this point. :-) Fingers crossed! -Charles -- Charles Robinson - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Did you call? Sorry, have been snoozing here. But I think you said something about people wanting to buy one or two of my K10D's? I'll be right down to take care of that... Seriously, I am very conflicted on this one. I am thinking I might get one K20D, keep one of the K10D's for a backup. But for the price of the new camera I could buy a new laptop to replace my 6-year old one. Or buy the DA*60-200 if it is ever produced. I like what I hear about the new camera but haven't convinced myself that I need it. All other things equal, I would probably wait for prices to come down when they announce the next camera (and use some frequent-flyer miles to go watch Cotty do his thing with his hat.) But I do have one week in Costa Rica in early June, and it would be a shame to buy a new camera right after such a trip... (Back to snoozing.) stan On Feb 25, 2008, at 9:34 AM, Thibouille wrote: Carlos, you may have not to wait too long if you wanna buy a K10D new. You are not the only one wanting to snag a pretty nice deal out of K10D lasting stock. Second hand should OK, sourcing from the guys ditching the K10D for a K20D ;) -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- Photo: K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... Thinkpad: X23+UB,X60+UB Programing: D7 user (trying out D2007) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
I am debating if I should buy a K10D (I have an *ist DS) or not. I like the two dials of the K10D (I miss that feature since I sold my Z-1), SR, SDM compatibility, weather sealing and the flexibility given by the configuration options of the K10D. On the other hand, my DS gives me a clean 1600 ISO and 3200 if needed and uses AA batteries. Some of you will remember, perhaps, that I also use two MZ-S bodies. The MZ-S AF performance (SAFOX IV) is much, much better, both in speed and low light focusing, than the *ist DS AF. Obviously, I would like to know how the K10D compares to the MZ-S with regard to AF performance. Hopefully, some of you may have used both cameras (K10D and MZ-S) and can give me first hand information to help me solve this quandary. I was going to post this same question in the DePressingReviews forum, but I have come to my senses and stopped at the last moment. Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Carlos, the best way to proceed for you, I think, is to arrange for simultaneous demonstration. There are cases when I find K10D AF lacking in speed and mechanical hmmm prowess, so to say. HTH. -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Boris Liberman escribió: Carlos, the best way to proceed for you, I think, is to arrange for simultaneous demonstration. Thanks for your answer, Boris. I have tried a K10D in a shop, with the kit lens, but I'm afraid that using it with the kit lens for a pair of minutes isn't a meaningful test, at least in my view. At least it gives you a feeling on how the body fits in your hands, though. If I were Ken Rockwell, it would be the most extensive in-deep test he's ever done and I would be able to write one of his very informative reviews, but I haven't got his skills and profound knowledge ;-) That's why I am hopeful that someone in the PDML who has used or still uses both cameras can enlighten me. There are cases when I find K10D AF lacking in speed and mechanical hmmm prowess, so to say. Can you elaborate a bit more on this, if it is possible? Thanks. Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
I used MZ-S only briefly for one day back in 2004 in Norway. Prior to that I used Z-1 for one day. I found that I liked the hmmm muscularity of Z-1 more than gentle intelligence of MZ-S (for lack of better words for comparison). The problem with K10D AF (at least with my sample) that sometimes (rarely but not negligibly) it seems to reach the point of focus but electronics and software don't confirm it. So I have to let go of shutter button and half press it again. Of course there are cases when it would cost me a shot. In fact, I am pondering if I should submit my camera for CLA of some kind (mostly A - Adjust) as long as the warranty lasts. I do think that out of all the bodies I handled in the past, Z-1 has the strongest AF motor. And I think this is what ultimately matters - the strength of AF motor. To that end K20D may be the best Pentax DSLR ever yet. -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Carlos Royo escribió: Some of you will remember, perhaps, that I also use two MZ-S bodies. The MZ-S AF performance (SAFOX IV) is much, much better, both in speed and low light focusing, than the *ist DS AF. Obviously, I would like to know how the K10D compares to the MZ-S with regard to AF performance. There's a typo in what I wrote (damned Roman numbers). The AF system in the MZ-S is SAFOX VII, not IV. Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
I should add, that recently I've been playing a bit. Although trivial, but it appears that if I force only center sensor to be used in AF'ing then of course it seems that AF becomes faster. As far as I remember MZ-S has less AF sensors than K10D. So perhaps it plays a certain role in the equation. Of course arranged comparison/test would be in order here. -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Carlos, If you'd be interested in a general impression. Based solely on my recollection of the focusing speed of the MZ-S (sold in the fall of '07), I'd have to say that the K10D is certainly no slower and it wouldn't surprise me if it were slightly faster. I have no sense of the difference with regard to their relative focus performance at various light levels. Jack --- Carlos Royo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Boris Liberman escribió: Carlos, the best way to proceed for you, I think, is to arrange for simultaneous demonstration. Thanks for your answer, Boris. I have tried a K10D in a shop, with the kit lens, but I'm afraid that using it with the kit lens for a pair of minutes isn't a meaningful test, at least in my view. At least it gives you a feeling on how the body fits in your hands, though. If I were Ken Rockwell, it would be the most extensive in-deep test he's ever done and I would be able to write one of his very informative reviews, but I haven't got his skills and profound knowledge ;-) That's why I am hopeful that someone in the PDML who has used or still uses both cameras can enlighten me. There are cases when I find K10D AF lacking in speed and mechanical hmmm prowess, so to say. Can you elaborate a bit more on this, if it is possible? Thanks. Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Carlos, I never tried an MZ-S unfortunately but.. * I think the istD (a camera I owned) and istDS (the one you own) is really identical, if I'm not mistaken. * the K10D AF is way faster than istD AF, just not even comparable. I dunno how those compare to the MZ-S however. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- Photo: K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... Thinkpad: X23+UB,X60+UB Programing: D7 user (trying out D2007) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
I have a MZ-S, a *ist D, DS, K10D and a very understanding wife. I agree with the center sensor hypothesis suggested by Boris. When set to center only (as I frequently do), AF speeds are very close. The K10D seems to be right on par with the MZ-S if not better. Also, the DSLRs all had cross sensors unlike the MZ-S. I remember having to tilt the MZ-S on occasion to get it to settle down when the subject had a distinct horizontal or vertical pattern. The K10D is definitely better than the DS with regard to AF, IQ, and build quality. BTW, I really did like my DS and it took much abuse and worked fine. It's currently off on a trip with a firend whose Nikon broke right before she left for Budapest. I have some sympathy for the concern about the proprietary battery. It does work well but unfortunately I have misplaced the charger. If it doesn't turn up very soon I'll have to drop $25-35 on a new generic version. Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/24/2008 9:32 AM I should add, that recently I've been playing a bit. Although trivial, but it appears that if I force only center sensor to be used in AF'ing then of course it seems that AF becomes faster. As far as I remember MZ-S has less AF sensors than K10D. So perhaps it plays a certain role in the equation. Of course arranged comparison/test would be in order here. -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. !SIG:47c1810069103172117797! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
On 24/02/08, Steve Desjardins, discombobulated, unleashed: I have a MZ-S, a *ist D, DS, K10D and a very understanding wife. Mark. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
On Feb 24, 2008, at 9:01 AM, Cotty wrote: I have a MZ-S, a *ist D, DS, K10D and a very understanding wife. Mark. I understand he has one too. But does it help with auto focus? ]'-) G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Steve Desjardins escribió: I have a MZ-S, a *ist D, DS, K10D and a very understanding wife Thanks for all the info, Steve. It is quite interesting and will helpe me make my mind. And I also have a very understanding wife, in fact she has been insistently telling me to buy the camera, but I always take my time to see all the fors and againsts before taking a decision. Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Thanks Boris, Steve, Jack, Thibouille, Paul and everyone who is contributing to this thread. Your answers are very useful, the PDML is a great place to stay in, full of nice people. I should have posted this question before instead of debating myself for days. The second part of the question would be: What do you think about the high ISO performance of the K10D? Is it much worse than the D or DS? Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Carlos Royo wrote on Sun, 24 Feb 2008 09:56:05 -0800 Thanks Boris, Steve, Jack, Thibouille, Paul and everyone who is contributing to this thread. Your answers are very useful, the PDML is a great place to stay in, full of nice people. I should have posted this question before instead of debating myself for days. The second part of the question would be: What do you think about the high ISO performance of the K10D? Is it much worse than the D or DS? Carlos, I have posted some test images comparing the noise performance of my *ist-D, K10D and K20D at all ISOs here: http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=jamesk8752templatefn=FileSharing1.htmlxmlfn=TKDocument.1.xmlsitefn=RootSite.xml Hopefully these will allow you to draw your own conclusion. Regards, Jim -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Godfrey DiGiorgi escribió: On Feb 24, 2008, at 9:53 AM, Carlos Royo wrote: Thanks Boris, Steve, Jack, Thibouille, Paul and everyone who is contributing to this thread. Your answers are very useful, the PDML is a great place to stay in, full of nice people. I should have posted this question before instead of debating myself for days. The second part of the question would be: What do you think about the high ISO performance of the K10D? Is it much worse than the D or DS? I've always found the K10D to be about on par with the DS. It has better dynamic range at ISO 1600 but a slightly noisier appearance if you don't get the exposure right on the money. Others have complained bitterly about noise, pattern artifacts, etc etc, but I've not seen them in my work. I find the K10D to be cleaner than the DS at ISO 800, which most of the time is as high as I use. The DS' ISO 3200 setting I only used a couple of times ... it simply wasn't very usable at all for my work. Thanks Godfrey. As you say, ISO 3200 in the DS is only useful for emergencies. I was more interested in ISO 1600 performance, and your information is what I needed. Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Jim King escribió: Carlos Royo wrote on Sun, 24 Feb 2008 09:56:05 -0800 Thanks Boris, Steve, Jack, Thibouille, Paul and everyone who is contributing to this thread. Your answers are very useful, the PDML is a great place to stay in, full of nice people. I should have posted this question before instead of debating myself for days. The second part of the question would be: What do you think about the high ISO performance of the K10D? Is it much worse than the D or DS? Carlos, I have posted some test images comparing the noise performance of my *ist-D, K10D and K20D at all ISOs here: http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=jamesk8752templatefn=FileSharing1.htmlxmlfn=TKDocument.1.xmlsitefn=RootSite.xml Hopefully these will allow you to draw your own conclusion. Thanks Jim, I'm downloading your photos and so far the K10D at ISO 800 and 1600 doesn't look much noisier than the D. The K20D looks even better, but right now is out of my price range. Who knows in the future... Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
On Feb 24, 2008, at 9:53 AM, Carlos Royo wrote: Thanks Boris, Steve, Jack, Thibouille, Paul and everyone who is contributing to this thread. Your answers are very useful, the PDML is a great place to stay in, full of nice people. I should have posted this question before instead of debating myself for days. The second part of the question would be: What do you think about the high ISO performance of the K10D? Is it much worse than the D or DS? I've always found the K10D to be about on par with the DS. It has better dynamic range at ISO 1600 but a slightly noisier appearance if you don't get the exposure right on the money. Others have complained bitterly about noise, pattern artifacts, etc etc, but I've not seen them in my work. I find the K10D to be cleaner than the DS at ISO 800, which most of the time is as high as I use. The DS' ISO 3200 setting I only used a couple of times ... it simply wasn't very usable at all for my work. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Cotty wrote: On 24/02/08, Steve Desjardins, discombobulated, unleashed: I have a MZ-S, a *ist D, DS, K10D and a very understanding wife. Mark. What? Oh, yeah. ZX-5, LX, MZ-S, *ist-Ds, K10D. Yep, I have an understanding wife, too -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
I've never owned a DS, but I have owned a pair of *istD cameras. And I now use a K10D. The K10D is capable of focusing in low-light situations where the D failed me. I also find it's able to stop action with continuous autofocus much better than the D. I would guess that indicates that it's faster. I'd still like better autofocus performance, but the K10D is much more useful than the D in this regard. Again, I haven't tried a DS. I suspect that it's the same as the D. Paul On Feb 24, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Jack Davis wrote: Carlos, If you'd be interested in a general impression. Based solely on my recollection of the focusing speed of the MZ-S (sold in the fall of '07), I'd have to say that the K10D is certainly no slower and it wouldn't surprise me if it were slightly faster. I have no sense of the difference with regard to their relative focus performance at various light levels. Jack --- Carlos Royo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Boris Liberman escribió: Carlos, the best way to proceed for you, I think, is to arrange for simultaneous demonstration. Thanks for your answer, Boris. I have tried a K10D in a shop, with the kit lens, but I'm afraid that using it with the kit lens for a pair of minutes isn't a meaningful test, at least in my view. At least it gives you a feeling on how the body fits in your hands, though. If I were Ken Rockwell, it would be the most extensive in-deep test he's ever done and I would be able to write one of his very informative reviews, but I haven't got his skills and profound knowledge ;-) That's why I am hopeful that someone in the PDML who has used or still uses both cameras can enlighten me. There are cases when I find K10D AF lacking in speed and mechanical hmmm prowess, so to say. Can you elaborate a bit more on this, if it is possible? Thanks. Carlos -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. __ __ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/ newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Need info on K10D AF vs. MZ-S
Carlos, I agree with Godfrey to that end that the precision of exposure matters more and more as ISO grows. Generally I shoot between ISO 100 and ISO 320. I used to avoid ISO 640 and up but most recent shooting during that rock show proved me wrong. I have received some quite good shots IQ-wise. It also depends on the mastery of post-processing, which of course is a limitless sky. Boris Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: I've always found the K10D to be about on par with the DS. It has better dynamic range at ISO 1600 but a slightly noisier appearance if you don't get the exposure right on the money. Others have complained bitterly about noise, pattern artifacts, etc etc, but I've not seen them in my work. I find the K10D to be cleaner than the DS at ISO 800, which most of the time is as high as I use. The DS' ISO 3200 setting I only used a couple of times ... it simply wasn't very usable at all for my work. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
