Re: [HACKERS] Background writer process
Bruce Momjian wrote: Shridhar Daithankar wrote: On Friday 14 November 2003 22:10, Jan Wieck wrote: Shridhar Daithankar wrote: On Friday 14 November 2003 03:05, Jan Wieck wrote: For sure the sync() needs to be replaced by the discussed fsync() of recently written files. And I think the algorithm how much and how often to flush can be significantly improved. But after all, this does not change the real checkpointing at all, and the general framework having a separate process is what we probably want. Having fsync for regular data files and sync for WAL segment a comfortable compromise? Or this is going to use fsync for all of them. IMO, with fsync, we tell kernel that you can write this buffer. It may or may not write it immediately, unless it is hard sync. I think it's more the other way around. On some systems sync() might return before all buffers are flushed to disk, while fsync() does not. Oops.. that's bad. Yes, one I idea I had was to do an fsync on a new file _after_ issuing sync, hoping that this will complete after all the sync buffers are done. Since postgresql can afford lazy writes for data files, I think this could work. The whole point of a checkpoint is to know for certain that a specific change is in the datafile, so that it is safe to throw away older WAL segments. I just made another posing on patches for a thread crossing win32-devel. Essentially I said 1. Open WAL files with O_SYNC|O_DIRECT or O_SYNC(Not sure if current code does it. The hackery in xlog.c is not exactly trivial.) We write WAL, then fsync, so if we write multiple blocks, we can write them and fsync once, rather than O_SYNC every write. 2. Open data files normally and fsync them only in background writer process. Now BGWriter process will flush everything at the time of checkpointing. It does not need to flush WAL because of O_SYNC(ideally but an additional fsync won't hurt). So it just flushes all the file descriptors touched since last checkpoint, which should not be much of a load because it is flushing those files intermittently anyways. It could also work nicely if only background writer fsync the data files. Backends can either wait or proceed to other business by the time disk is flushed. Backends needs to wait for certain while committing and it should be rather small delay of syncing to disk in current process as opposed to in background process. In case of commit, BGWriter could get away with files touched in transaction +WAL as opposed to all files touched since last checkpoint+WAL in case of checkpoint. I don't know how difficult that would be. What is different in current BGwriter implementation? Use of sync()? Well, basically we are still discussing how to do this. Right now the backend writer patch uses sync(), but the final version will use fsync or O_SYNC, or maybe nothing. The open items are whether a background process can keep the dirty buffers cleaned fast enough to keep up with the maximum number of backends. We might need to use multiple processes or threads to do this. We certainly will have a background writer in 7.5 --- the big question is whether _all_ write will go through it. It certainly would be nice if it could, and Tom thinks it can, so we are still exploring this. Given that fsync is blocking, the background writer has to scale up in terms of processes/threads and load w.r.t. disk flushing. I would vote for threads for a simple reason that, in BGWriter, threads are needed only to flush the file. Get the fd, fsync it and get next one. No need to make entire process thread safe. Furthermore BGWriter has to detect the disk limit. If adding threads does not improve fsyncing speed, it should stop adding them and wait. There is nothing to do when disk is saturated. If the background writer uses fsync, it can write and allow the buffer to be reused and fsync later, while if we use O_SYNC, we have to wait for the O_SYNC write to happen before reusing the buffer; that will be slower. Certainly. However an O_SYNC open file would not require fsync separately. I suggested it only for WAL. But for WAL block grouping as suggested in another post, all files with fsync might be a good idea. Just a thought. Shridhar ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] start of transaction (was: Re: [PERFORM] Help with count(*))
Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hannu Krosing wrote: It would be even better to have now() that returns the time current transaction is COMMITted as this is the time other backend become aware of it ;) True, but implementing that would be very hard. Son, that was a *joke* ... regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
-Original Message- From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 November 2003 23:31 To: Josh Berkus Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ? Josh Berkus writes: Given all that, don't people think it's time to jump to 8.0? As has been said before, many people think that a Windows port is the least interesting feature ever to happen to PostgreSQL, so you're going to have to come up with better reasons. Least interesting to many user perhaps, but lost of them seen to think that it's important for expanding our userbase: http://www.postgresql.org/survey.php?View=1SurveyID=9 That can't be a bad thing. Regards, Dave. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Dann Corbit writes: Cygwin requires a license for commercial use. No, it does not. Really? What's this then? http://www.cygwin.com/licensing.html The Cygwin license, the GPL, specifically says: Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, ... So commercial use is clearly allowed. -- Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Joshua D. Drake wrote: Hello, If Win32 actually makes it into 7.5 then yes I believe 8.0 would be appropriate. It might be interesting to track Oracle's version number viz. its feature list. IOW, a PostgreSQL 8.0 database would be feature equivalent to an Oracle 8.0 database. That would mean: 1) PITR 2) Distributed Tx 3) Replication 4) Nested Tx 5) PL/SQL Exception Handling IMHO, a major version number jump should at least match the delta in features one finds in the commercial segment with their major version number bumps. Otherwise, I suspect it would be viewed as window dressing... Good point. To me the best argument against so far. Could be wrong, though... Mike Mascari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Christoph ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Dave Page writes: Least interesting to many user perhaps, but lost of them seen to think that it's important for expanding our userbase: http://www.postgresql.org/survey.php?View=1SurveyID=9 That survey is a bit like asking television viewers, What do you think would attract the most new television viewers? 33% -- better entertainment That does not say that better entertainment will attract new viewers, just that the existing viewers think that. Most nonviewers might in fact be perfectly content with their way of living. -- Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Background writer process
If the background writer uses fsync, it can write and allow the buffer to be reused and fsync later, while if we use O_SYNC, we have to wait for the O_SYNC write to happen before reusing the buffer; that will be slower. You can forget O_SYNC for datafiles for now. There would simply be too much to do currently to allow decent performance, like scatter/gather IO, ... Imho the reasonable target should be to write from all backends but sync (fsync) from the background writer only. (Tune the OS if it actually waits until the pg invoked sync (== 5 minutes per default)) Andreas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
-Original Message- From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 November 2003 09:23 To: Dave Page Cc: Josh Berkus; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ? Dave Page writes: Least interesting to many user perhaps, but lost of them seen to think that it's important for expanding our userbase: http://www.postgresql.org/survey.php?View=1SurveyID=9 That survey is a bit like asking television viewers, What do you think would attract the most new television viewers? 33% -- better entertainment That does not say that better entertainment will attract new viewers, just that the existing viewers think that. Most nonviewers might in fact be perfectly content with their way of living. Right, but not having the luxury of time travel (wasn't that removed in Postgres95? ;-) ) we can only go by what the majority think. We won't know if it's actually right unless we try it. We could run a survey saying 'would you use PostgreSQL on win32', but the chances are that the vast majority of potential win32 users would not visit the site to answer that until it became widely know that we do support win32, by which time of course it's all a bit moot. Unless of course, you have other stats that prove that win32 support is uninteresting to most people and potential users? Regards, Dave. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Release cycle length
On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 04:36, Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Peter Eisentraut wrote: 0. As you say, make it known to the public. Have people test their in-development applications using a beta. and how do you propose we do that? I think this is the hard part ... other then the first beta, I post a note out to -announce and -general that the beta's have been tag'd and bundled for download ... I know Sean does up a 'devel' port for FreeBSD, but I don't believe any of the RPM/deb maintainers do anything until the final release ... I do in fact build debs of the beta and rc releases. These have gone into the experimental archive in Debian and are announced on Debian lists. I even posted an announcement to pgsql-general, on 10th October for example. -- Oliver Elphick[EMAIL PROTECTED] Isle of Wight, UK http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver GPG: 1024D/3E1D0C1C: CA12 09E0 E8D5 8870 5839 932A 614D 4C34 3E1D 0C1C A Song for the sabbath day. It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High. Psalms 92:1 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] Release cycle length
0. As you say, make it known to the public. Have people test their in-development applications using a beta. and how do you propose we do that? I think this is the hard part ... other then the first beta, I post a note out to -announce and -general that the beta's have been tag'd and bundled for download ... I know Sean does up a 'devel' port for FreeBSD, but I don't believe any of the RPM/deb maintainers do anything until the final release ... Incidentally, the reason that I created the -devel port is because I needed some of the features now and didn't want to wait for a release. As things stand, I'm getting roughly 50-100 downloads a day of my -devel snapshots, which leads me to believe that there is some interest in having the release engineering team push features out the door more quickly. My eye on the pgsql repo isn't perfect, but I know I'm not the only one using it in production. 5. If need be, have a release management team that manages 0-4. Core does that, but we just don't feel that being totally rigid is (or has ever been) a requirement ... but, if you can provide suggestions on points 0 and 3, we're all ears ... You've got FreeBSD blood in you, you know that [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the same as [EMAIL PROTECTED] + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s big reason for wanting to have long release cycles is to minimize the time that pgsql developers spend with their re@ and qa@ hats on. Truth be told, pgsql's code quality in the tree is so high that a snapshot of HEAD is almost as good as a release... the difference being the amount of attention spent on detail, docs, finishing touches/polish. For the # of lines of code that go into pgsql, it's nearly bug free over 95% of the time which means to me with an releng hat on, that pgsql could stand to increase the rate of releases so long as the developers can stomach doing the extra merges from HEAD to the stable branch for feature additions or possibly watching micro version numbers increment faster than they have historically. For all intents and purposes, pgsql's releases are stellar and the Pg team makes every release very important to most everyone, where important is defined as containing features useful for everyone: as opposed to a re@ release often model where releases don't necessarily useful features to a majority and just lead to upgrade thrashing which is costly to organizations. Food for thought... nothing conclusive here. -sc -- Sean Chittenden ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Dave Page wrote: Right, but not having the luxury of time travel (wasn't that removed in Postgres95? ;-) ) we can only go by what the majority think. We won't know if it's actually right unless we try it. We could run a survey saying 'would you use PostgreSQL on win32', but the chances are that the vast majority of potential win32 users would not visit the site to answer that until it became widely know that we do support win32, by which time of course it's all a bit moot. Unless of course, you have other stats that prove that win32 support is uninteresting to most people and potential users? Regards, Dave. I'm sorry if I'm being alow here - is there any problem with running a production server on cygwin's postgresql? Is the cygwin port of lesser quality, or otherwise inferior? I understand that the installation is a bit awkward for cygwin. I somehow don't see that as too much of a problem. As for usage - RedHat guidelines clearly state that OSI approved licensed programs will not be considered by them derived work of the cygwin dll (the one who's GPLness caused the original discussion). This, aside from the question of whether they have any claim on Posix utilities anyhow, or whether a commercial application using PGSQL should be considered derived work of it, mean to me that there is no problem in distributing a commercial app that uses Cygwin PostgreSQL. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Shachar Shemesh wrote: I'm sorry if I'm being alow here alow-slow Just wanted to avoid confusion. -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Uytkownik Shachar Shemesh napisa: Dave Page wrote: Right, but not having the luxury of time travel (wasn't that removed in Postgres95? ;-) ) we can only go by what the majority think. We won't know if it's actually right unless we try it. We could run a survey saying 'would you use PostgreSQL on win32', but the chances are that the vast majority of potential win32 users would not visit the site to answer that until it became widely know that we do support win32, by which time of course it's all a bit moot. Unless of course, you have other stats that prove that win32 support is uninteresting to most people and potential users? Regards, Dave. I'm sorry if I'm being alow here - is there any problem with running a production server on cygwin's postgresql? Is the cygwin port of lesser quality, or otherwise inferior? Performance, performance, perfomance... and perfomance... it is (almost) always worse perfomance when we emulate something... and using Cygwin we are emulating U*nix... ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
I'm sorry if I'm being alow here - is there any problem with running a production server on cygwin's postgresql? Is the cygwin port of lesser quality, or otherwise inferior? Performance, performance, perfomance... and perfomance... it is (almost) always worse perfomance when we emulate something... and using Cygwin we are emulating U*nix... Absolutely. The DB throughput available to our application with postgresql under cygwin is about 1/3 of what we get under Linux with a similar spec machine/config. That, and, more importantly, the odd spurious cygipc lock up, precludes our use of postgresql/cygwin in a production setting. And not having postgresql available on all our target platforms (which includes Windows) precludes the use of it at all, as we desire a single DB solution. I don't imagine we are the only ones in this situation (and to all those who see a Windows port as uninteresting, please keep this in mind). Hopefully, we can change this situation soon... Cheers, Claudio --- Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from Memetrics. For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see a href=http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html;http://www.memetrics.com/em ailpolicy.html/a ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Claudio Natoli wrote: I'm sorry if I'm being alow here - is there any problem with running a production server on cygwin's postgresql? Is the cygwin port of lesser quality, or otherwise inferior? Performance, performance, perfomance... and perfomance... it is (almost) always worse perfomance when we emulate something... and using Cygwin we are emulating U*nix... Absolutely. The DB throughput available to our application with postgresql under cygwin is about 1/3 of what we get under Linux with a similar spec machine/config. That, and, more importantly, the odd spurious cygipc lock up, precludes our use of postgresql/cygwin in a production setting. And not having postgresql available on all our target platforms (which includes Windows) precludes the use of it at all, as we desire a single DB solution. I don't imagine we are the only ones in this situation (and to all those who see a Windows port as uninteresting, please keep this in mind). You are far from alone. And there's one other factor: most large enterprises have quite strict policies about what can be installed on their data center servers. Getting Cygwin past those policies would often be difficult. That factor alone was enough to make my product manager rule Postgres out as a solution that we would bundle with our software. Hopefully, we can change this situation soon... Right. Here's the situation as I see it: . there have been lots of requests for a native Win32 port . this is important to some people and not important to others . the decision has long ago been made to do it, and some work has been done, and more is being done Isn't it time to move on? As for release numbering, ISTM that is not fundamentally very important. At my former company we had code names for branches and decided release names/numbers near release time in accordance with marketing requirements. Let's not get hung up on nominalism. A release number is just a tag and we can call it whatever seems good at the time. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Uz.ytkownik Andrew Dunstan napisa?: Claudio Natoli wrote: As for release numbering, ISTM that is not fundamentally very important. At my former company we had code names for branches and decided release names/numbers near release time in accordance with marketing requirements. Let's not get hung up on nominalism. A release number is just a tag and we can call it whatever seems good at the time. Maybe it's a good time to think about PostgreSQL's marketing strategy identity. Maybe this great DBMS should be changed in all areas - not only in technical related fields ? ML ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Release cycle length
On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 20:08:41 -0500, Neil Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The time from release 7.3 to release 7.4 was 355 days, an all-time high. We really need to shorten that. Why is that? End users will find it useful. I started using 7.4 from CVS early on because check constraints for domains were available. With a long release cycle you have to wait a long time to get any of the features in a release when some of them may have been developed early in the release cycle. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Le Mardi 18 Novembre 2003 06:21, Greg Stark a écrit : Oh, and yeah, a win32 port. Yay, another OS port. Postgres runs on dozens of OSes already. What's so exciting about one more? Even if it is a pathologically hard OS to port to. Just because it was hard doesn't mean it's useful. Dear Greg, In your opinion, why did MySQL capture so many users quickly? Is it because MySQL offers a nice and powerful solution? No, on the converse, everyone knows that MySQL is not a reliable database. To some extent, MySQL is not really ACID compliant. It cannot parse large queries with LEFT and RIGHT joins. It does not offer reliable ODBC. And it does not evolve very quickly. it does not support Unicode. There are no server-side languages. etc... So why did MySQL succeed? In my opinion, because Php and MySQL were both available on Apache servers (GNU/Linux) and on home stations (Win32). Simple as that. This kind of cross-needs-effect is called a ***portfolio effect***. The portfolio effect is the ***central marketing strategy*** of Microsoft when releasing OS and Office suites together. Because your Grand-mother owns a Win 95 station, she sends you files under PowerPoint 95, in turn you invest in Office 2000 and send Excel 2000 files to your brother, who in turn invests in Office XP and prints Word XP documents. [---Future readers in 200 years: all these names used tp be trademarks from Microsoft in a time when a few people tried to lock-up ideas.--]. And you end up with everyone upgrading Office and Windows. Now, without being pretentious, I would like to remind this simple idea: ***Who lives by the sward, dies by the sward*** If we apply the same strategy as Microsoft or MySQL, PostgreSQL can conquer the whole market. Not 1% like today, but 60% or more like Apache. Because we are a community. If you do not believe reaching 60% of market shares is possible, let us assume that a PostgreSQL Win32 native port is available in 6 months. Immediately, the following bundles would appear: - PostgreSQL + PhpPgAdmin + pgAdmin - a potential of 1 million users - Apache2.0 + Php5 + PostgreSQL - a potential of 5 million users - OpenOffice + PostgreSQL - a potential of 10 million users - Some MS Access replacement - a potential of 2 million users - there are many others... For me, this makes 60% of the market at least. A 1% to 60% is not a small difference, it is a real gap. Best regards, Jean-Michel ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] Release cycle length
... Does anyone have a comparison of how many lines of code were added in this release compared to previous? 7.2.4: 456204 lines of code in 1021 files 7.3.4: 480491 lines of code in 1012 files 7.4: 554567 lines of code in 1128 files (boah!) I used a fresh extracted source-directory and executed 'find postgresql-7.xxx -name '*.c' - o -name '*.h'|wc -l' and 'find postgresql-7.xxx -name '*.c' - o -name '*.h'|xargs cat|wc -l' Tommi Chris ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster -- Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH http://www.epgmbh.de ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Claudio Natoli wrote: Claudio Natoli wrote nothing of the sort :-P --- Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from Memetrics. For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see a href=http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html;http://www.memetrics.com/em ailpolicy.html/a ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] logical column position
Will adding the logical attribute number break all of the external tools? pg_dump, etc are all dependent on attnum now? Would it be possible to keep the meaning of attnum the same externally and add another column internally to represent the physical number? Dave ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Release cycle length
On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 02:33:41PM +0100, Tommi Maekitalo wrote: ... Does anyone have a comparison of how many lines of code were added in this release compared to previous? 7.2.4: 456204 lines of code in 1021 files 7.3.4: 480491 lines of code in 1012 files 7.4: 554567 lines of code in 1128 files (boah!) I used SLOCcount by David A. Wheeler at some point on various releases (including 7.1.3 IIRC) and at some point the number of lines actually _decreased_. I didn't look into it in more detail, but I think the number of lines of code doesn't even come near to telling the whole story. -- Alvaro Herrera (alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl) You liked Linux a lot when he was just the gawky kid from down the block mowing your lawn or shoveling the snow. But now that he wants to date your daughter, you're not so sure he measures up. (Larry Greenemeier) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Andrew Dunstan wrote: Here's the situation as I see it: . there have been lots of requests for a native Win32 port . this is important to some people and not important to others . the decision has long ago been made to do it, and some work has been done, and more is being done Isn't it time to move on? No arguments here. As soon as the fork/exec changes are in place, count me in! Speaking of which, any ETA on this? Bruce? If anyone from core can indicate how they'd like this architected (from the perspective of code rearrangement), I'm willing to have a crack at this. Cheers, Claudio --- Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from Memetrics. For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see a href=http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html;http://www.memetrics.com/em ailpolicy.html/a ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] logical column position
Dave Cramer wrote: Will adding the logical attribute number break all of the external tools? pg_dump, etc are all dependent on attnum now? Would it be possible to keep the meaning of attnum the same externally and add another column internally to represent the physical number? Interesting idea. It would require a lot of code renaming in the backend, but it could be done. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Uz.ytkownik Jean-Michel POURE napisa?: For me, this makes 60% of the market at least. A 1% to 60% is not a small difference, it is a real gap. Don't forget that success isn't always connected with technical things (very good example is MySQL :-)) - PostgreSQL needs a good marketing, clear strategy and identity. But for sure Win32 port will be a huge step. There are other databases which have Win32 native version and aren't so popular (like Firebird...)... So my proposition to PostgreSQL's team is to think also about SMI - Strategy Marketing Identity... ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] Release cycle length
Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Peter Eisentraut wrote: 0. As you say, make it known to the public. Have people test their in-development applications using a beta. and how do you propose we do that? I think this is the hard part ... other then the first beta, I post a note out to -announce and -general that the beta's have been tag'd and bundled for download ... I know Sean does up a 'devel' port for FreeBSD, but I don't believe any of the RPM/deb maintainers do anything until the final release ... 1. Start platform testing on day 1 of beta. Last minute fixes for AIX or UnixWare are really becoming old jokes. then each beta will have to be re-certified for that beta, up until release ... doable, but I don't think you'll find many that will bother until we are close to release ... 2. Have a complete account of the changes available at the start of beta, so people know what to test. Bruce, when do you do your initial HISTORY file? Something to move to the start of beta, if not? I see beta starting on: revision 1.277 date: 2003/08/04 22:30:30; author: pgsql; state: Exp; lines: +3 -3 change tag to 7.4beta1 and update the Copyright to 2003 Guess what folks? We are now in Beta!! and 7.4 HISTORY updated on: revision 1.196 date: 2003/08/03 23:26:05; author: momjian; state: Exp; lines: +324 -26 Update HISTORY file for 7.4. so the HISTORY file was updated the day before beta started. I haven't always been good about this, but I am now. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Claudio Natoli wrote: Andrew Dunstan wrote: Here's the situation as I see it: . there have been lots of requests for a native Win32 port . this is important to some people and not important to others . the decision has long ago been made to do it, and some work has been done, and more is being done Isn't it time to move on? No arguments here. As soon as the fork/exec changes are in place, count me in! It doesn't matter really --- I am working on the win32 port, and will make sure it is done and I will make sure it is done so it doesn't uglify our code. Speaking of which, any ETA on this? Bruce? If anyone from core can indicate how they'd like this architected (from the perspective of code rearrangement), I'm willing to have a crack at this. http://momjian.postgresql.org/main/writings/pgsql/win32.html -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Bruce Momjian wrote: Speaking of which, any ETA on this? Bruce? If anyone from core can indicate how they'd like this architected (from the perspective of code rearrangement), I'm willing to have a crack at this. http://momjian.postgresql.org/main/writings/pgsql/win32.html No, sorry, I should have been clearer. Here I was referring specifically to the fork/exec parts, not the entire porting effort. [I remembered a post of yours of a few weeks ago, mentioning that the fork/exec bits might be in in a few weeks; something along the lines of that it was taking you a while not due to issues, but simply a lack of time (can't find the exact message; might be mis-remembering)] Probably something you are close to completing, but if not, and you can describe how you'd prefer any rearrangement, I'm happy taking this one. Cheers, Claudio --- Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from Memetrics. For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see a href=http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html;http://www.memetrics.com/em ailpolicy.html/a ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Claudio Natoli wrote: Bruce Momjian wrote: Speaking of which, any ETA on this? Bruce? If anyone from core can indicate how they'd like this architected (from the perspective of code rearrangement), I'm willing to have a crack at this. http://momjian.postgresql.org/main/writings/pgsql/win32.html No, sorry, I should have been clearer. Here I was referring specifically to the fork/exec parts, not the entire porting effort. [I remembered a post of yours of a few weeks ago, mentioning that the fork/exec bits might be in in a few weeks; something along the lines of that it was taking you a while not due to issues, but simply a lack of time (can't find the exact message; might be mis-remembering)] Probably something you are close to completing, but if not, and you can describe how you'd prefer any rearrangement, I'm happy taking this one. I am ready to work with anyone to make fork/exec happen. It requires we find out what globals are being set by the postmaster, and have the child run those same routines. I can show you examples of what I have done and walk you through areas that need work. If you look at the EXEC_BACKEND defines in CVS, you can see what I have done so far. We need to have EXEC_BACKEND working on Unix first, then we can add the CreateProcess call on Win32, so all this can be done on Unix first. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Bruce Momjian wrote: I am ready to work with anyone to make fork/exec happen. It requires we find out what globals are being set by the postmaster, and have the child run those same routines. I can show you examples of what I have done and walk you through areas that need work. If you look at the EXEC_BACKEND defines in CVS, you can see what I have done so far. We need to have EXEC_BACKEND working on Unix first, then we can add the CreateProcess call on Win32, so all this can be done on Unix first. How is EXEC_BACKEND going to be enabled? A configure option? A global define? cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the near future???
All: Does anyone know if there is going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the near future. What is the decission to develop on this platform since Sun is pushing Solaris x86 harder than ever. -- Christopher Smiga System Engineer (Sun SCSA) N2 Broadband Network Operations Phone: 888-671-1268 (NOC) e-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - N2 Broadband, Inc. (www.n2bb.com) 4500 River Green Parkway, Suite 110 Duluth, GA. 30096-2564 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
--- Dann Corbit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which feature is requested more than that? Not sure how often features are requested and by whom. However, if you take a look at the TODO list, you'll find plenty of stuff more important than win32 port. Of the following (which includes every significant DBMS in terms of market share), which did not consider a native Windows port to be important: SQL*Sever (all right, we can discount this one...) DB/2 Oracle MySQL Sybase Informix Have *never* seen ppl running Oracle or Sybase on Windows. Not sure about DB/2 or Informix, never worked with them, but I'd suspect the picture is the same. They may claim that they have win port but it's more of a marketing gimmick than a useful feature that affects real, not hypothetical, users. IMHO, core postgreSql development should not be sacrificed for the sake of win32 port. __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Christoper Smiga wrote: All: Does anyone know if there is going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the near future. What is the decission to develop on this platform since Sun is pushing Solaris x86 harder than ever. Doesn't it work? I've run on Solaris 8 x86 extensively in the past, and played a bit with Solaris 9, but know (or haven't heard of) any issues with Solaris 9 + 7.4 ... ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, ow wrote: Have *never* seen ppl running Oracle or Sybase on Windows. I can't speak for Oracle, but Sybase on Windows is definitely a real thing. If you have to deal with developing for their iAnywhere product (a remote replication solution for PocketPC applications), Windows is the first class citizen for the database and Unix is definitely second class (can attest to that from first hand experience). We had trouble convincing them that we wanted to run with Postgres as the data repository under Unix. A native win32 port would have helped us out. -rocco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
ow wrote: Have *never* seen ppl running Oracle or Sybase on Windows. Not sure about DB/2 or Informix, never worked with them, but I'd suspect the picture is the same. Then you need to get out more. I have seen Oracle, Sybase, DB2 (and probably Informix, I forget) all running on Windows in a number of large enterprise data centers. They may claim that they have win port but it's more of a marketing gimmick than a useful feature that affects real, not hypothetical, users. IMHO, core postgreSql development should not be sacrificed for the sake of win32 port. Nobody is sacrificing anything. As usual, people are working on the things that they want to work on. A Win32 port is clearly not important *to*you*. It is to others, and it's going to happen. You might dislike the decision but you need to get over it. If you feel other things are more important feel free to contribute to that work. I am sure the core team will make sure that the Win32 work does not break or degrade the product on Unix, so why the heck should you even care? I'm not a big Windows fan either, but I also live in the real world. I suspect that goes for most of us who want to see this work done. I still don't know why we are even having this discussion. andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
--- Rocco Altier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, ow wrote: Have *never* seen ppl running Oracle or Sybase on Windows. I can't speak for Oracle, but Sybase on Windows is definitely a real thing. If you have to deal with developing for their iAnywhere product iAnywhere is a completely separate product and is *not* a port of Sybase ASE (core db server). IIRC, iAnywhere runs only on Windows, well, maybe they ported it to Linux by now. __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 08:39:29AM -0800, ow wrote: Have *never* seen ppl running Oracle or Sybase on Windows. I _have_ certainly seen plenty of people running Oracle on Windows. They weren't necessarily happy, of course, but people do it all the time. As for Sybase, you don't see that because Sybase on Windows was, for a long time, SQL Server. I do not have any real personal jones to get Postgres on Windows, but that does not make it any less valuable to those who want it, and are apparently doing the work to provide it. From my point of view, we should just encourage the project that is already in motion. A -- Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street Afilias CanadaToronto, Ontario Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] M2P 2A8 +1 416 646 3304 x110 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the near future???
In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christoper Smiga) transmitted: Does anyone know if there is going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the near future. What is the decission to develop on this platform since Sun is pushing Solaris x86 harder than ever. If you're running Solaris on x86, then you're free to try PostgreSQL out there. It works quite well on SPARC; it is not evident that/why it _wouldn't_ work on the x86 version. On the other hand, the impression that I got was that the pushing taking place with Solaris x86 was more of the into the dumpster sort than pushing hard to customers. I thought their new strategy involved Linux on x86... -- (reverse (concatenate 'string gro.gultn @ enworbbc)) http://cbbrowne.com/info/spreadsheets.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #220. Whatever my one vulnerability is, I will fake a different one. For example, ordering all mirrors removed from the palace, screaming and flinching whenever someone accidentally holds up a mirror, etc. In the climax when the hero whips out a mirror and thrusts it at my face, my reaction will be ``Hmm...I think I need a shave.'' http://www.eviloverlord.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Win32 Port WAS: Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Peter, Well, based on the feedback we're getting from the 7.4 release, the #1 issue for non-postgresql users who are interested enough to post to message boards is Where is the Windows Port? This gets mentioned roughly 10 times as often as any other potential feature. So the Windows port is a mostly question of what matters to people who *aren't* using PostgreSQL currently, assuming we want our community to grow (and I think we do, since communities which don't grow die).For many if not most of our current users it doesn't matter as much, becuase if it did they wouldn't be using PostgreSQL. But it affects current users too. I had to pass on two potential contracts in 2003 because the use of Windows servers was stipulated. The second of these I was really put out about since it was a scheduling application, something that both I and PostgreSQL excel at were it not on Windows. You probably aren't faced with this issue as much in Germany, but it happens often to us folks in the US Canada. -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Marek, Maybe it's a good time to think about PostgreSQL's marketing strategy identity. Maybe this great DBMS should be changed in all areas - not only in technical related fields ? If your interest is marketing PostgreSQL, please join the Advocacy list. That goes for anyone on this list who is interested in PostgreSQL Advocacy from whatever perspective, including if you want us to stop doing it. It's an open list ... come join! -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Win32 Port WAS: Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 09:24:25AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: Well, based on the feedback we're getting from the 7.4 release, the #1 issue for non-postgresql users who are interested enough to post to message boards is Where is the Windows Port? This gets mentioned roughly 10 times as This is also, by the way, a reason not to say, _X_ is planned for the next release, unless there is acutal working code kicking around. Lots of people saw the remarks (I am among the guilty for repeating it, I think) that a Windows port seemed to be planned for 7.4. So some of us were guilty of flogging vapourware, I'm afraid. A -- Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street Afilias CanadaToronto, Ontario Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] M2P 2A8 +1 416 646 3304 x110 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the near future???
I think they are actually trying to pull it out of the dumpster, whether from desperation of marketing acumen no one knows. I think they've gone back to the 'if we can get them hooked on a dual opteron box, we can sell them some massive E1' or whatever. On Nov 18, 2003, at 11:32 AM, Christopher Browne wrote: In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christoper Smiga) transmitted: Does anyone know if there is going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the near future. What is the decission to develop on this platform since Sun is pushing Solaris x86 harder than ever. If you're running Solaris on x86, then you're free to try PostgreSQL out there. It works quite well on SPARC; it is not evident that/why it _wouldn't_ work on the x86 version. On the other hand, the impression that I got was that the pushing taking place with Solaris x86 was more of the into the dumpster sort than pushing hard to customers. I thought their new strategy involved Linux on x86... -- (reverse (concatenate 'string gro.gultn @ enworbbc)) http://cbbrowne.com/info/spreadsheets.html Rules of the Evil Overlord #220. Whatever my one vulnerability is, I will fake a different one. For example, ordering all mirrors removed from the palace, screaming and flinching whenever someone accidentally holds up a mirror, etc. In the climax when the hero whips out a mirror and thrusts it at my face, my reaction will be ``Hmm...I think I need a shave.'' http://www.eviloverlord.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match Andrew Rawnsley President The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd. (740) 587-0114 www.ravensfield.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Release cycle length
Guys, I agree with Neil ... it's not the length of the development part of the cycle, it's the length of the beta testing. I do think an online bug tracker (bugzilla or whatever) would help. I also think that having a person in charge of testing would help as well ... no biggie, just someone whose duty it is to e-mail people in the community and ask about the results of testing, especially on the more obscure ports. I think a few e-mail reminders would do a *lot* to speed things up. But I'm not volunteering for this job; managing the release PR is herding cats enough! I also contributed to the delays on this release because it took longer than I expected to get the PR machinery started. We have a sort of system now, though, and the next release should be easier. HOWEVER, a release cycle of *less than 6 months* would kill the advocacy vols if we wanted the same level of publicity. I do support the idea of dev releases. For example, if there was a dev release of PG+ARC as soon as Jan is done with it, I have one client would would be willing to test it against a simulated production load on pretty heavy-duty hardware. (Oddly enough, my problem in doing more testing myself is external to PostgreSQL; most of our apps are PHP apps and you can't compile PHP against two different versions of PostgreSQL on the same server. Maybe with User Mode Linux I'll be able to do more testing now.) -- Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the
PostgreSQL most definitely works great on Solaris x86 ! At UC Berkeley, we have our undergraduate students hack on the internals of PostgreSQL in the upper-division Introduction to Database Systems class .. http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs186/ The official platform is Solaris x86 - that's where the students get accounts and they have to get their code working on that platform as the TAs will only test and grade their submissions on Solaris x86. (Besides, I also got TelegraphCQ running on Solaris x86 .. just for kicks though .. and TelegraphCQ is based off of pgsql-7.3.2) -- Pip-pip Sailesh http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~sailesh ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Release cycle length
On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 09:42:31AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote: (Oddly enough, my problem in doing more testing myself is external to PostgreSQL; most of our apps are PHP apps and you can't compile PHP against two different versions of PostgreSQL on the same server. Maybe with User Mode Linux I'll be able to do more testing now.) I'm not sure UML would help you here. I think you'd be better trying to run Apache in a chrooted environment, PHP and PostgreSQL included. You don't need another kernel, but another set of libraries. BTW, I think UMLSIM (umlsim.sf.net) could help to play the unplug-the-server game. In theory you could rewrite the block subsystem to fail, simulating a real disk failure and possible a system shutdown. I don't have time to do it myself right now however ... -- Alvaro Herrera (alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl) Find a bug in a program, and fix it, and the program will work today. Show the program how to find and fix a bug, and the program will work forever (Oliver Silfridge) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ow) wrote:
Have *never* seen ppl running Oracle or Sybase on Windows.
I haven't seen Sybase on Windows (only barely have seen it anywhere,
fitting with the comment made that it hides in the lucrative financial
industry); I _have_ seen Oracle deployed on Windows NT. (I was once
involved with a deployment on Novell Netware, which is _really_ odd,
as platforms go :-).)
That we don't see these things a lot may mean that we are seeing
somewhat ghettoized areas of the computer industry. I doubt Sybase
'does Windows' terribly much, but just because I don't see it doesn't
mean it doesn't exist.
--
wm(X,Y):-write(X),write('@'),write(Y). wm('aa454','freenet.carleton.ca').
http://cbbrowne.com/info/linuxdistributions.html
Subject: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Or perhaps a better subject title would be, Watching paint dry, but
geekier.
-- Brian Menyuk
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Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Release cycle length
Josh Berkus wrote: Guys, I agree with Neil ... it's not the length of the development part of the cycle, it's the length of the beta testing. I do think an online bug tracker (bugzilla or whatever) would help. I also think that having a person in charge of testing would help as well ... no biggie, just someone whose duty it is to e-mail people in the community and ask about the results of testing, especially on the more obscure ports. I think a few e-mail reminders would do a *lot* to speed things up. But I'm not volunteering for this job; managing the release PR is herding cats enough! Maybe some sort of automated distributed build farm would be a good idea. Check out http://build.samba.org/about.html to see how samba does it (much lighter than the Mozilla tinderbox approach). We wouldn't need to be as intensive as they appear to be - maybe a once or twice a day download and test run would do the trick, but it could pick up lots of breakage fairly quickly. That is not to say that more intensive testing isn't also needed on occasion. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
-Original Message- From: ow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 8:39 AM To: Dann Corbit; Christopher Kings-Lynne; Greg Stark Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ? --- Dann Corbit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which feature is requested more than that? Not sure how often features are requested and by whom. However, if you take a look at the TODO list, you'll find plenty of stuff more important than win32 port. Of the following (which includes every significant DBMS in terms of market share), which did not consider a native Windows port to be important: SQL*Sever (all right, we can discount this one...) DB/2 Oracle MySQL Sybase Informix Have *never* seen ppl running Oracle or Sybase on Windows. Not sure about DB/2 or Informix, never worked with them, but I'd suspect the picture is the same. They may claim that they have win port but it's more of a marketing gimmick than a useful feature that affects real, not hypothetical, users. I have all of the above database systems installed on the Windows 2000 machine I am typing this message from. DB/2 7.1 Oracle 8.1.7 and 9.2.0.5 MySQL 4.0.12 Sybase Adaptive Server 12.0 Informix Dynamic Server 9.2 (Also SapDB, Firebird server, SQL*Server, and several others that are not running right now) I just use them for development on this machine, but we have literally thousands of customers with those database systems installed on Win32 and used in production. IMHO, core PostgreSQL development should not be sacrificed for the sake of win32 port. A typical window-phobic. Thankfully, cooler heads will prevail. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Release cycle length
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Andrew Dunstan wrote: Josh Berkus wrote: Guys, I agree with Neil ... it's not the length of the development part of the cycle, it's the length of the beta testing. I do think an online bug tracker (bugzilla or whatever) would help. I also think that having a person in charge of testing would help as well ... no biggie, just someone whose duty it is to e-mail people in the community and ask about the results of testing, especially on the more obscure ports. I think a few e-mail reminders would do a *lot* to speed things up. But I'm not volunteering for this job; managing the release PR is herding cats enough! Maybe some sort of automated distributed build farm would be a good idea. Check out http://build.samba.org/about.html to see how samba does it (much lighter than the Mozilla tinderbox approach). We wouldn't need to be as intensive as they appear to be - maybe a once or twice a day download and test run would do the trick, but it could pick up lots of breakage fairly quickly. That is not to say that more intensive testing isn't also needed on occasion. Check the archives on this, as its been hashed out already once at least ... I think the big issue/problem is that nobody seems able (or wants) to come up with a script that could be setup in cron on machines to do this ... something simple that would dump the output to a log file and, if regression tests failed, email'd the machine owner that it needs to be checked would do, I would think ... ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
--- Dann Corbit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have all of the above database systems installed on the Windows 2000 machine I am typing this message from. DB/2 7.1 Oracle 8.1.7 and 9.2.0.5 MySQL 4.0.12 Sybase Adaptive Server 12.0 Informix Dynamic Server 9.2 (Also SapDB, Firebird server, SQL*Server, and several others that are not running right now) I'd say your environment is somewhat unique. A typical window-phobic. Not really. I simply think there are more pressing issues than win32 port. Peace __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
-Original Message- From: ow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 11:23 AM To: Dann Corbit; Christopher Kings-Lynne; Greg Stark Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ? --- Dann Corbit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have all of the above database systems installed on the Windows 2000 machine I am typing this message from. DB/2 7.1 Oracle 8.1.7 and 9.2.0.5 MySQL 4.0.12 Sybase Adaptive Server 12.0 Informix Dynamic Server 9.2 (Also SapDB, Firebird server, SQL*Server, and several others that are not running right now) I'd say your environment is somewhat unique. No argument there. A typical window-phobic. Not really. I simply think there are more pressing issues than win32 port. Peace I suppose I get rabid about it because I will benefit in a stupendous way when it becomes available. Hence, I see that area of development from different colored lenses than you do. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
[HACKERS] Build farm
Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Andrew Dunstan wrote: Maybe some sort of automated distributed build farm would be a good idea. Check out http://build.samba.org/about.html to see how samba does it (much lighter than the Mozilla tinderbox approach). We wouldn't need to be as intensive as they appear to be - maybe a once or twice a day download and test run would do the trick, but it could pick up lots of breakage fairly quickly. That is not to say that more intensive testing isn't also needed on occasion. Check the archives on this, as its been hashed out already once at least ... I think the big issue/problem is that nobody seems able (or wants) to come up with a script that could be setup in cron on machines to do this ... something simple that would dump the output to a log file and, if regression tests failed, email'd the machine owner that it needs to be checked would do, I would think ... If there's general interest I'll try to cook something up. (This kind of stuff is right up my alley). I'd prefer some automated display of results, though. A simple CGI script should be all that's required for that. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
[HACKERS] Sponsoring enterprise features
Hi folks, Is there any pre-existing protocol for a company to pay for specific features to be added to PostgreSQL? I've gotten full executive buy-in to the idea that it would be far cheaper to sponsor and pay for people to develop the enterprise features we need in Postgres than to do an Oracle migration to get those same features that we need (which would cost unholy amounts of money that we don't want to spend for our installation). All that said, I don't know if this is a feasible plan, or what the makeup is of the developers currently working on Postgres. As a practical matter, we do not have the time or people to take on this project in-house. Our company is interested in sponsoring a push to get enterprise-level scalability features into PostgreSQL, things like partitioning and organized heaps. As a practical business matter, Oracle is an option but one of last resort that we (and I) would prefer to avoid if at all possible. We see an obvious long-term benefit to making Postgres do what we need it to do than buying gobs of Oracle licenses. Are other people/companies already doing this, either officially or unofficially, and what is the general protocol for going about doing this? Cheers, -James Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] Sponsoring enterprise features
Mr. Rogers, Is there any pre-existing protocol for a company to pay for specific features to be added to PostgreSQL? Are other people/companies already doing this, either officially or unofficially, and what is the general protocol for going about doing this? Other companies are doing this, and we often depend on corporate support for new major features. The general approach is to hire or contract a major contributor to make the changes you want and win approval in the community for them. Probably a few companies and/or individuals have already contacted you. If not, you are welcome to contact me. -- -Josh Berkus Aglio Database Solutions San Francisco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Andrew Dunstan wrote: Bruce Momjian wrote: I am ready to work with anyone to make fork/exec happen. It requires we find out what globals are being set by the postmaster, and have the child run those same routines. I can show you examples of what I have done and walk you through areas that need work. If you look at the EXEC_BACKEND defines in CVS, you can see what I have done so far. We need to have EXEC_BACKEND working on Unix first, then we can add the CreateProcess call on Win32, so all this can be done on Unix first. How is EXEC_BACKEND going to be enabled? A configure option? A global define? We will use it for testing to make sure Unix can work with exec(), then we add CreateProcess and make EXEC_BACKEND defined for that platform. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [HACKERS] Release cycle length
On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:36:11AM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Peter Eisentraut wrote: 0. As you say, make it known to the public. Have people test their in-development applications using a beta. and how do you propose we do that? I think this is the hard part ... other then the first beta, I post a note out to -announce and -general that the beta's have been tag'd and bundled for download ... I know Sean does up a 'devel' port for FreeBSD, but I don't believe any of the RPM/deb maintainers do anything until the final release ... For what it is worth, I try to promote the beta testing on general bits. I also invite people to write articles for me. To highlight a feature or concept or just to egg people on in a short article by a guest to general bits is very appropriate. My audience might not be core hackers, but getting the larger user group to participate as well as prepare for conversion is something I can help promote. (Just contact me to submit articles for publication--the invitation is always open.) --elein = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Varlena, LLC www.varlena.com PostgreSQL Consulting, Support Training PostgreSQL General Bits http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/ = I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] start of transaction
Hannu Krosing wrote: Tom Lane kirjutas E, 17.11.2003 kell 02:08: Neil Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm... I agree this behavior isn't ideal, although I can see the case for viewing this as a mistake by the application developer: they are assuming that they know exactly when transactions begin, which is not a feature provided by their language interface. Well, actually, it's a bug in the interface IMHO. But as I said in the last thread, it's a fairly widespread bug. I'm not sure that it is a client-side bug. For example Oracle seems to _always_ have a transaction going, i.e. you can't be outside of transaction, and you use just COMMIT to commit old _and_start_new_ transaction. IIRC the same is true for DB2. Actually, in oracle a new transaction starts with first DDL after a commit. That does not include DML BTW. And Damn.. Actually I recently fixed a bug where I had to force a start of transaction in Pro*C, immediately after commit. Otherwise a real start of transaction could be anywhere down the line, causing some weird concurrency issues. Rather than fiddling with oracle support, I would hack my source code, especially this is not the first oracle bug I have worked around:-( The fact that I couldn't control exact transaction start was such a irritation to put it mildly.. I so missed 'exec sql begin work' in ecpg..:-) We've been taking the position that the interface libraries should get fixed, and that's not happening. It's probably time to look at a server-side fix. I hope that does not compramise transaction control I have with libpq/ecpg etc. And when we are talking about interface libraries, how many of them are within PG control and how many are not? With languages maintenend by postgresql group, it should behave correctly, right? E.g pl/perl,pl/python etc. And for other interface libraries, what are they exactly? php? Can't we just send them a stinker/patch to get that damn thing right(Whatever wrong they are doing. I have kinda lost thread on it..:-) Was it exact time of transaction start v/s now()?) Shridhar ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] Background writer process
Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD wrote: 1. Open WAL files with O_SYNC|O_DIRECT or O_SYNC(Not sure if Without grouping WAL writes that does not fly. Iff however such grouping is implemented that should deliver optimal performance. I don't think flushing WAL to the OS early (before a tx commits) is necessary, since writing 8k or 256k to disk with one call takes nearly the same time. The WAL write would need to be done as soon as eighter 256k fill or a txn commits. That means no special treatment to WAL files? If it works, great. There would be single class of files to take care w.r.t sync. issue. Even more simpler. Shridhar ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] Need help.
Thank you very much, for help. The problem was, that the server and client wasn't the same version. Bruno Wolff III [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 14:04:56 +0200, Petro Pelekh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So my database doesn't have pg_namespace system catalog, and doesn't understand such pg_catalog.pg_class c, but understand pg_class c. May be some of you have such problems with postgres and can help. It looks like the client and the server aren't from the same version of postgres. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [CORE] [HACKERS] 7.4RC2 regression failur and not running
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:14:34, Bruce Momjian wrote: Would you please check CVS HEAD. Tom has just applied the patch fix this and we could use more testers. CVS HEAD compiles fine and all regression tests pass on my Sol 2.8 and 2.9 boxes. -derek Derek Morr GPG public key: http://marion02.marion.psu.edu/~derek/public.key ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] Sponsoring enterprise features
On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 14:33, James Rogers wrote: Hi folks, Is there any pre-existing protocol for a company to pay for specific features to be added to PostgreSQL? There are several people who do this type of work (Neil, Joe, David, the folks are Command Prompt Inc., etc.). Personally, I think the best way is simply to make a post on -hackers with a description of what you want to accomplish with a call for estimates and proposals. Ensure you require the feature to be applied to the main code line so it will be maintained for future releases. I say a description of what you want to accomplish because certain features are not as useful on PostgreSQL as they are other databases (data partitioning being one of them, due to the ability to use partial indexes) so you may not achieve what you are expecting. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[HACKERS] calling plpgsql from c
Hallo, I'm trying to call plpgsql functions from c functions directly through the Oid, but i have a problem: it seems that the plpgsql interpreter calls SPI_connect and fails even if the caller has already spi-connected. I am working on recursive functions in c and so i can not call SPI_finish by myself before calling the plpgsql function since i would loose tons of stuff (or am i missing something?). Now, is there a way to work around this? If not: wouldn't it be meaningful to change this behavior? thank you max. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the
http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs186/hwk0/index.html
Are these screenshots of PgAccess on Mac OSX?
Robert Treat
On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 13:07, Sailesh Krishnamurthy wrote:
PostgreSQL most definitely works great on Solaris x86 !
At UC Berkeley, we have our undergraduate students hack on the
internals of PostgreSQL in the upper-division Introduction to
Database Systems class ..
http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs186/
The official platform is Solaris x86 - that's where the students get
accounts and they have to get their code working on that platform as
the TAs will only test and grade their submissions on Solaris x86.
(Besides, I also got TelegraphCQ running on Solaris x86 .. just for
kicks though .. and TelegraphCQ is based off of pgsql-7.3.2)
--
Pip-pip
Sailesh
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~sailesh
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Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the
Robert Treat wrote: http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs186/hwk0/index.html Are these screenshots of PgAccess on Mac OSX? It's pretty sad that Mike Stonebraker only has a salary of $15,000. ;-) I also thought this SIGMOD article was a nice read: http://www.acm.org/sigmod/record/issues/0309/4.JHdbcourseS03.pdf How about extra credit for PITR? Mike Mascari [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] Build farm
On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 14:36, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
Maybe some sort of automated distributed build farm would be a good
idea. Check out http://build.samba.org/about.html to see how samba does
it (much lighter than the Mozilla tinderbox approach).
We wouldn't need to be as intensive as they appear to be - maybe a once
or twice a day download and test run would do the trick, but it could
pick up lots of breakage fairly quickly.
That is not to say that more intensive testing isn't also needed on
occasion.
Check the archives on this, as its been hashed out already once at least
... I think the big issue/problem is that nobody seems able (or wants) to
come up with a script that could be setup in cron on machines to do this
... something simple that would dump the output to a log file and, if
regression tests failed, email'd the machine owner that it needs to be
checked would do, I would think ...
If there's general interest I'll try to cook something up. (This kind of stuff is
right up my alley). I'd prefer some automated display of results, though. A simple
CGI script should be all that's required for that.
look in the tools directory of cvs, i swear Bruce checked in a script he
uses for similar tasks..
Robert Treat
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[HACKERS] Commercial binary support?
I've been looking all over but I can't seem to see a company that is providing *up-to-date* postgresql support and provides their own supported binaries. Am I barking up the wrong tree entirely here? TIA -- Austin Gonyou [EMAIL PROTECTED] Coremetrics, Inc. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the
Mike == Mike Mascari [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mike Robert Treat wrote: http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs186/hwk0/index.html Are these screenshots of PgAccess on Mac OSX? Yup .. that's from Joe Hellerstein, who was the instructor in the Spring when I was a TA. Mike It's pretty sad that Mike Stonebraker only has a salary of Mike $15,000. ;-) We've got to do something now that he's a competitor :-) Mike I also thought this SIGMOD article was a nice read: Mike http://www.acm.org/sigmod/record/issues/0309/4.JHdbcourseS03.pdf That's right .. it was a fun experience and I like to think that the students enjoyed it. The best part was that we got to pick up 3 great undergraduates for our research - and pgsql hacking experience is invaluable in hacking TelegraphCQ. Mike How about extra credit for PITR? One step at a time :-) Actually a big problem is figuring out new pieces for the projects. Most of the items in the TODO list are way too much for a class project - we gave 'em 3 weeks to make the Hash GroupedAgg work for large numbers of unique values (by using a form of hybrid hashing). Another thing I toyed with was having an implementation of a Tid-List-Fetch .. sorting a TID-list from an index and fetching the records of the relation off the sorted list for better IO performance. AFAICT something like this isn't present yet .. can pgsql do this already ? -- Pip-pip Sailesh http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~sailesh ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
[HACKERS] Comment on pg_catalog and information_schema objects
Hi list, First of all, many thanks to everyone who contributed to 7.4 - I'm just starting to rebuild parts of our CMS to make use of some of the new features - very welcome indeed. Whilst looking through the new information_schema objects in the DB, and browsing the documentation for these objects, it occurred to me that this information is not available _inside_ the DB. I began looking at /doc/src/sgml/catalogs.sgml to see how easy it would be to convert the descriptions of the views/tables/columns into COMMENT ON (VIEW|TABLE|COLUMN) xx[.yy] IS 'zz'; statements. I imagine that someone who has worked with SGML before would be able to knock up this transformation pretty quick(?) so I'll try appealing here before getting my hands dirty attempting to try it myself. Is there any reason not to have the system objects commented in this way in the installation? -- Tom Hebbron ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [HACKERS] Build farm
Robert Treat wrote: Check the archives on this, as its been hashed out already once at least ... I think the big issue/problem is that nobody seems able (or wants) to come up with a script that could be setup in cron on machines to do this ... something simple that would dump the output to a log file and, if regression tests failed, email'd the machine owner that it needs to be checked would do, I would think ... If there's general interest I'll try to cook something up. (This kind of stuff is right up my alley). I'd prefer some automated display of results, though. A simple CGI script should be all that's required for that. look in the tools directory of cvs, i swear Bruce checked in a script he uses for similar tasks.. /tools/pgtest -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] logical column position
Will adding the logical attribute number break all of the external tools? pg_dump, etc are all dependent on attnum now? Would it be possible to keep the meaning of attnum the same externally and add another column internally to represent the physical number? Interesting idea. It would require a lot of code renaming in the backend, but it could be done. Given that the interfaces comprise pgadmin, phppgadmin, jdbc and odbc and all the main developers for those lists read all these posts, I think the massive amount of effort to maintain the external interface isn't worth it. I can vouch that it would take me exactly 2 minutes to add support for attlognums in phpPgAdmin. Chris ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Release cycle length
HOWEVER, a release cycle of *less than 6 months* would kill the advocacy vols if we wanted the same level of publicity. I do support the idea of dev releases. For example, if there was a dev release of PG+ARC as soon as Jan is done with it, I have one client would would be willing to test it against a simulated production load on pretty heavy-duty hardware. Can't we have nightly builds always available? Why can't they just use the CVS version? (Oddly enough, my problem in doing more testing myself is external to PostgreSQL; most of our apps are PHP apps and you can't compile PHP against two different versions of PostgreSQL on the same server. Maybe with User Mode Linux I'll be able to do more testing now.) I'd be willing to give testing coordination a go, not sure where I'd begin though. Chris ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the
PostgreSQL most definitely works great on Solaris x86 ! At UC Berkeley, we have our undergraduate students hack on the internals of PostgreSQL in the upper-division Introduction to Database Systems class .. http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs186/ Hi Sailesh, You know what would be kind of cool? If you could write a Guide to PostgreSQL to Teach Databases. eg. You could cover how to set up the server securely (eg. schemas for each person), etc. How to manage it all, handle upgrades, etc. Mention what things are good to get students to hack on in the internals, etc. Could be a good techdocs.postgresql.org article. Just a thought :) Chris ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Release cycle length
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: HOWEVER, a release cycle of *less than 6 months* would kill the advocacy vols if we wanted the same level of publicity. I do support the idea of dev releases. For example, if there was a dev release of PG+ARC as soon as Jan is done with it, I have one client would would be willing to test it against a simulated production load on pretty heavy-duty hardware. Can't we have nightly builds always available? Why can't they just use the CVS version? We do do nightly builds ... have for years now ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the
Chris == Christopher Kings-Lynne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: PostgreSQL most definitely works great on Solaris x86 ! At UC Berkeley, we have our undergraduate students hack on the internals of PostgreSQL in the upper-division Introduction to Database Systems class .. http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs186/ Chris Hi Sailesh, Chris You know what would be kind of cool? If you could write a Chris Guide to PostgreSQL to Teach Databases. Chris eg. You could cover how to set up the server securely Chris (eg. schemas for each person), etc. Chris How to manage it all, handle upgrades, etc. Mention what Chris things are good to get students to hack on in the Chris internals, etc. Chris Could be a good techdocs.postgresql.org article. Hmm .. this is probably a good idea. I ought to do it for the benefit of future TAs here anyway - but I wasn't thinking on the lines of a full-fledged article .. just burnt out with too much writing :-) I'm just underwater until the end of the semester. If I don't come through by the end of december do ping me. -- Pip-pip Sailesh http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~sailesh ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the
On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 02:31:03PM -0800, Sailesh Krishnamurthy wrote: Another thing I toyed with was having an implementation of a Tid-List-Fetch .. sorting a TID-list from an index and fetching the records of the relation off the sorted list for better IO performance. AFAICT something like this isn't present yet .. can pgsql do this already ? Nope. In fact it's on the TODO list. I think people call it bitmap indexes, the idea being that the TID list is represented as a sparse bitmap (go ask some JPEG hacker what that means). Extra points if multiple bitmaps can be ANDed and ORed, to allow using multiple indexes simultaneously ... -- Alvaro Herrera (alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl) Oh, oh, las chicas galacianas, lo harán por las perlas, ¡Y las de Arrakis por el agua! Pero si buscas damas Que se consuman como llamas, ¡Prueba una hija de Caladan! (Gurney Halleck) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [HACKERS] [pgsql-advocacy] Not 7.5, but 8.0 ?
Dann Corbit [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have all of the above database systems installed on the Windows 2000 machine I am typing this message from. DB/2 7.1 Oracle 8.1.7 and 9.2.0.5 MySQL 4.0.12 Sybase Adaptive Server 12.0 Informix Dynamic Server 9.2 (Also SapDB, Firebird server, SQL*Server, and several others that are not running right now) I suppose I get rabid about it because I will benefit in a stupendous way when it becomes available. Hence, I see that area of development from different colored lenses than you do. My rhetoric kind of got out of hand, but in fact I'm sure a win32 port would be useful. And I'm sure there are particular people for whom it would be very useful. But my point was that it doesn't really change the nature of what you can or can't do with Postgres. If you want to run Postgres it just means you have to set up a Linux or BSD box first and then you get the same feature set as you will when the port is done. Having a win32 port just means it's more convenient. Whereas PITR makes the difference between being able to meet some technical requirements or not. Most importantly, it makes the difference between being fully 24x7 capable and not. By way of illustration, *all* of the above listed databases (with the exception of MySQL of course) had hot backups and PITR *long* before they had windows ports. In any case I regret trolling. Mea Culpa. The whole discussion is pointless. This isn't how free software advances. Developers will work on what captures their fancy and the users don't get to vote unless they pay the bills or contribute the code themselves. :) -- greg ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] Is there going to be a port to Solaris 9 x86 in the
Alvaro Herrera [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 02:31:03PM -0800, Sailesh Krishnamurthy wrote: Another thing I toyed with was having an implementation of a Tid-List-Fetch .. sorting a TID-list from an index and fetching the records of the relation off the sorted list for better IO performance. AFAICT something like this isn't present yet .. can pgsql do this already ? I think you're talking about situations like where x = ? or y = ? or where x = ? and y = ? When both `x' and `y' are indexed. It's possible to do the index lookup, gather a list of tid pointers in some efficient format like a bit vector, and apply the and/or and any other clauses. Oracle can do this, and it's useful in some cases when you have DSS-style where all the indexes have poor selectivity but using enough of them together gets you a reasonable number of records. In my experience it was never really very useful. I suspect there are specific situations where it makes a big difference though. Nope. In fact it's on the TODO list. I think people call it bitmap indexes, the idea being that the TID list is represented as a sparse bitmap (go ask some JPEG hacker what that means). Extra points if multiple bitmaps can be ANDed and ORed, to allow using multiple indexes simultaneously ... I think this is different from what he meant, but yes, bitmap indexes might be an interesting project. Like hash indexes they have limited uses, but when they're useful they're VERY useful. In Oracle they're mainly useful for low-cardinality attributes like flags on rarely-updated tables. (Actually I wonder whether locking in postgres would be simpler than locking Oracle because of the no-update style of MVCC, hmm.) -- greg ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] 4 Clause license?
On 2003.11.17 14:48:08 -0500, Rod Taylor wrote: The PostgreSQL group has recently had a patch submitted with a snippet of code from FreeBSDs src/bin/mkdir/mkdir.c. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/bin/mkdir/mkdir.c?annotate=1.27 Is this intentionally under the 4 clause license or does the copyright from the website (2 clause) applied to everything that is non-contrib? The license in each file is the one that is authoritative. The file you are refering to has original 'The Regents of the University of California' copyright, so the advertising clause is revoked as per ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/pub/4bsd/README.Impt.License.Change . Hope this helps. Disclaimer: This is my own view of the issue, and I don't speak officially for the FreeBSD project. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong :-). -- Simon L. Nielsen FreeBSD Documentation Team pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
