[PHP] 100% CPU Usage somewhere in script - how to find it?
Hi, I use a (externally developed) library within my application which used to work fine. However, after a recent update (which unfortunately we can't roll back due to dependencies) I have crazy CPU loads - there are ~20 cores in total on the webservers and they have gone from an average utilization of ~5% to 99%. I am using lighttpd, and so I can see the php-cgi processes using 99% all my CPU! I have an extremely basic understanding of how to track this down, and using XDebug and KCacheGrind I think that I have a pretty good idea which area the problem lies in, but the problem is that because whatever it is that has broken is using up the whole CPU everything else slows down. Furthermore, it would appear that a large part of what gets scheduled is luck because sometimes things are instant and the same activity a short while later can take forever. However, based on absolute CPU time's from this XDebug/KCacheGrind analysis and a gut hunch based upon what has changed recently I think I know roughly what it is. I do have a diff of the recent code change, and I have looked at it to no avail. My questions are: - Is there a better way to see what is using up the CPU? There must be a single loop or something talking to an external service, that is using so much CPU user time. Is there a super-quick way to do to this? I really need to know what function (or even line) is using all that CPU time, because I can't spot it in the code. Perhaps this information can be obtained from XDebug but I can't find it! - If there is no such magic answer to this question, what is the correct way to find such a phantom problem? Are there any other applications that might be better? If anyone has any personal recommendations for Consultants able to look at and fix this sort of problem that would be much appreciated too; I am now well out of my depth and sinking fast! Many thanks for any help, Alex -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
On Sat, 2009-01-17 at 20:45 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote: Skip Evans schreef: Tony Marston wrote: It's NOT just so we can blast each other and show off our highly dubiously assumed superiority. If I was Robbert Cummings I'd nail you on your grammar at this point, I don't want to steal his thunder so I won't. Hey dumbass... it's spelled Robert. Cheers, Rob. :) -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham wrote: Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: Tony Marston wrote: If you really *need* to used a staticly typed language then don't use PHP, and don't try to change PHP to match your needs. why not? Because your desired functionality is already satisfied by other programming languages. PHP is an interpreted language with all the strengths and weaknesses that come with it. A need for static or compile-time typing is a need for a different language, honestly. /Per Jessen, Zürich why so strongly against having *optional* static typing? You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't/shouldn't have strong and loose typing in the same language. In my opinion. IMHO if it was to classify all the languages (specifically server side languages for web apps), PHP has 95% of the features i need, the rest come no where near, so it's the obvious candidate to get this remaining 5% that'd make it perfect and open it up to a whole set of new users and markets. _If_ the remaining 5% will really open it up to a whole set of new users and markets, all you have to do is sit back and wait. I'm not so sure though. One of the great things about PHP is that it is easy and approachable for beginners, also without formal computer science training. Write some code, bang it in a webserver, and bob's your uncle. If we make PHP more complex, we might well lose that. By all means create a PHP++, but leave PHP as it is. It has enough feature-bloat already. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] 100% CPU Usage somewhere in script - how to find it?
... This may be of some use, enabling you to find the areas that are taking longer than others: http://www.phpguru.org/downloads/Timer/Timer.phps -- Richard Heyes HTML5 Graphing for Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari: http://www.rgraph.org (Updated January 17th) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham wrote: point is.. Java let's me easily do 70% of what I need to PHP let's me easily do 95% of what I need to I'm curious - can you list what the 25% are? If we could get that 5% added then PHP would be perfect, not only that but me and the rest of the team at work would be able to make our multi-million pound enterprise projects in PHP instead of java; as would so many others (that can't be a bad thing for PHP) But why? Why not use Java and J2EE and all that good stuff? I'm not much of a java fan myself, but you've got to give credit where credit is due. Additionally, rather sure you'd see a mass influx of people moving to php, and applications created for it - even down to design tools such as reverse and forward engineering between uml and php. ack.. there's a tonne of amazing tools and frameworks for java, and I'm sure that a vast majority of them are possible because of this static typing (from orms to web service frameworks and all in between) - am I so bad for wanting that for php and my fellow devs? No, you're not so bad :-) The point is - why not just use Java, when you really need the features? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? It's NOT just so we can blast each other and show off our highly dubiously assumed superiority. With all the frustrations we put up with in our daily lives, I would hope a list like this, especially since we are among colleagues, could be a place we could at least cautiously expect to be treated with respect. Then the OP should respect PHP for what it is, and not request changes that would make it unusable for 99.999% of the millions of programmers who have already written millions of programs with it. PHP is successful because of the way it works, and changing the way it works, as suggested by the OP, would not make it more successful. On the contrary, I think that it would PHuck it up completely. But that's just my opinion. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org -- Skip Evans Big Sky Penguin, LLC 503 S Baldwin St, #1 Madison WI 53703 608.250.2720 http://bigskypenguin.com Those of you who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. -- Kurt Vonnegut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] phpMailer Problem!
hi all,
I want to send email using SMTP Authentication with PHPMailer,
I searched more and more but I can't find anything of my problem
///
include_once('class.phpmailer.php');
include(class.smtp.php); // optional, gets called from within
class.phpmailer.php if not already loaded
$mail = new PHPMailer();
$mail-IsSMTP();
$mail-Host = mail.xx.com; // sets GMAIL as the SMTP
server
$mail-Port = 80;
$mail-Username = webs...@xxx.com; // SMTP username
$mail-Password = x; // SMTP password
$mail-From = webs...@xx.com;
$mail-FromName = First Last;
$mail-Subject= PHPMailer Test Subject via smtp;
$mail-AltBody= To view the message, please use an HTML compatible
email viewer!; // optional, comment out and test
$mail-MsgHTML(h);
$mail-AddAddress(xx...@gmail.com, John Doe);
//$mail-AddAttachment(images/phpmailer.gif); // attachment
if(!$mail-Send()) {
echo Mailer Error: . $mail-ErrorInfo;
} else {
echo Message sent!;
}
result is nothing, no error but didn't send
then I remove Username password, but didn't work!...
thanks,
shahrzad khorrami
[PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message
news:49723749.4070...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote:
Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message
a: Optional Static Typing
I'm finding an ever increasingly need to be able to staticly type
properties, parameters, return types etc (in classes) I know there is
type hinting but it's just not enough to do what one needs. Additionally
support for staticly typing primatives. Here's an example:
If you really *need* to used a staticly typed language then don't use
PHP, and don't try to change PHP to match your needs.
why not? php fills 95% of my needs in most instances, I'm as much a valid
user of php as you and php *could* change to fit my needs and others, not
without some appreciated work mind you, but it could (and without
affecting anybody else in this case)
ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! You cannot change PHP from being dynamicly typed to
staticly typed without affecting 99% of the millions of programs which hav
already been written.
Personally I love the idea that a function's argument can be either a string
or an array (or whatever) as PHP makes it easy to detect what type it is,
and I can easily cast it to another type and deal with it as I see fit. This
to me is a GREAT ADVANTAGE and NOT a limitation.
it's a simple need: if I can type that my variable can only contain an
int, then I know it's always an int without tonnes of checks to check it
actually contains an int / is getting set with an int throughout the rest
of the app (especially when multiple dev's are working on it).
additionally this functionality would open the door to the creation of a
lot more apps and frameworks,
Not in my (not so humble) opinion.
not least the ability to create decent ORM's.
Proper progammers do not need any steeenking ORMs.
Further, it would allow people to contribute proper developers classes
that can be re-used time and time again
Your definition of proper obviously disagrees with mine.
(for instance a full set of collections [class, hashmap, map, list, set
etc etc]). Once they're made and open source we all benefit, not only that
but they could be made by users instead of the internals team ;)
b: Object superclass
A base class type which all objects automagically extend, with (if
nothing else) a unique id / hashcode for each object (much like the Java
Object class). Failing this some form of function to get a unique
reference string for any variable. Example
Why should each class automaticaly extend a base class? For what purpose?
For what benefit? I can achieve what I want without this *feature*, so I
don't need it.
2 reasons:
1: it would allow all objects to have this uniqueid/hashcode i need
2: it would allow one to type hint Object in methods (you currently
can't) - you can method(array $var) but not method(object $var) see:
?php
class Example {
public function someMethod(object $arg0) {
}
}
$e = new Example();
$e-someMethod( (object)'y' );
?
returns: Catchable fatal error: Argument 1 passed to
Example::someMethod() must be an instance of object
Why does each object need a unique id/hashcode? I have been using objects
for years without this so it is not necessary, and does not provide any
additional functionality.
for comparison of equality, so you can make indexed arrays quickly using
the hashcode (you know like a hash table) so you can quickly tell the
difference between two instances of the same object with the same values
that are infact different, makes persisting data a 100 times easier...
Why do you need a unique reference string for each variable? WTF!
well because $a = 's'; $b = 's'; both are unique, internally php must hold
a reference of some sort to each variable and where it's stored that is
entirely unique; it would simply be a case of exposing this functionality
/or/ adding functionality based on this.
c: Method overloading
TBH it's something I could live without, whereas a/b aren't, but it
would be an ideal addition to php?
PHP does not need method overloading as is found in other languages as it
has optional parameters with defaults. It is also possible to cast each
parameter into wahetever type is necessary. It achieves the same result
but using a different method.
the same functionality can be achieved, however not without a lot of
additional code to test variable types using conditional blocks with lots
of is_ and instanceof comparisons; adding method overloading is by no
means needed but would majorly simplify the code of scripts which need
this functionality.
I disagree.
Absolute rubbish! You have obviously been used to a different language
and have recently moved to PHP, but cannot get used to the fact that it
*IS* a different language, therefore it has different syntax and achieves
similar things in different ways. If your feeble brain can't handle the
differences then I suggest you stick with
Re: [PHP] phpMailer Problem!
2009/1/18 shahrzad khorrami shahrzad.khorr...@gmail.com: $mail-Port = 80; Invalid mail port -- WBR, Dmitrii +375 29 40-LINUX +375 29 60-LINUX icq: 193-74-771 www.varvashenia.ru -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Jochem Maas joc...@iamjochem.com wrote in message news:4972365b.4060...@iamjochem.com... Daniel Brown schreef: Well, since Nathan asked especially for the opinions of those who would disagree with him, I thought all was well On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 13:33, Tony Marston t...@marston-home.demon.co.uk wrote: If your feeble brain can't handle the differences then I suggest you stick with your previous language and LEAVE PHP ALONE! until this line. Can't quite tell if it's a joke or what it was. Kinda' killed the validity of the rest of the message. I guess it's the old adage: it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it It's a pity his brain is wired directly to his arse, as opposed to his mouth, because I believe his brain is actually quite sharp I'll take that as a compliment. :) ... unfortunately it all comes out covered in . I'll take that as an insult. :( -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org PS - I must be bored, I've sent more posts in the last ten minutes than I have in the last 6 months ;) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
I will be brief. Tony is a dick. Peace Love, Skip Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? It's NOT just so we can blast each other and show off our highly dubiously assumed superiority. With all the frustrations we put up with in our daily lives, I would hope a list like this, especially since we are among colleagues, could be a place we could at least cautiously expect to be treated with respect. Then the OP should respect PHP for what it is, and not request changes that would make it unusable for 99.999% of the millions of programmers who have already written millions of programs with it. PHP is successful because of the way it works, and changing the way it works, as suggested by the OP, would not make it more successful. On the contrary, I think that it would PHuck it up completely. But that's just my opinion. -- Skip Evans Big Sky Penguin, LLC 503 S Baldwin St, #1 Madison WI 53703 608.250.2720 http://bigskypenguin.com Those of you who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. -- Kurt Vonnegut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Project management systems
Hey all (except Tony), I've been using dotProject for a few years now and have been quite happy with it, and have written my own invoicing module, and a few other mods for the way I track hours for subcontractors, etc. But it has trouble with MySQL 5 and from the Googling I've done it doesn't seem likely it will be fixed soon. Besides, I've hacked my install up quite a bit and if I were to upgrade there'd trouble 'a foot, ya'll. I'm considering switching to something else, and the start of a new year would be a good time since my subs have all been given their 10-99s so I can start fresh. Suggestions for a PHP based PM system? I'd like to be able to make mods so PHP is the logical choice since it's the language I know best, and as Tony will tell you, it's perfect and doesn't need no feeble minded Java guys trying to improve it. Basic requirements are time tracking for multiple coders, generating invoices per project based on start and end date (I bill the 15th and last day of each month). Gee, I guess that's the basics. Thoughts, opinions, corrections to grammar? -- Skip Evans Big Sky Penguin, LLC 503 S Baldwin St, #1 Madison WI 53703 608.250.2720 http://bigskypenguin.com Those of you who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. -- Kurt Vonnegut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] 100% CPU Usage somewhere in script - how to find it?
On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Alex Davies a...@davz.net wrote: Hi, I use a (externally developed) library within my application which used to work fine. However, after a recent update (which unfortunately we can't roll back due to dependencies) I have crazy CPU loads - there are ~20 cores in total on the webservers and they have gone from an average utilization of ~5% to 99%. I am using lighttpd, and so I can see the php-cgi processes using 99% all my CPU! I have an extremely basic understanding of how to track this down, and using XDebug and KCacheGrind I think that I have a pretty good idea which area the problem lies in, but the problem is that because whatever it is that has broken is using up the whole CPU everything else slows down. Furthermore, it would appear that a large part of what gets scheduled is luck because sometimes things are instant and the same activity a short while later can take forever. However, based on absolute CPU time's from this XDebug/KCacheGrind analysis and a gut hunch based upon what has changed recently I think I know roughly what it is. I do have a diff of the recent code change, and I have looked at it to no avail. My questions are: - Is there a better way to see what is using up the CPU? There must be a single loop or something talking to an external service, that is using so much CPU user time. Is there a super-quick way to do to this? I really need to know what function (or even line) is using all that CPU time, because I can't spot it in the code. Perhaps this information can be obtained from XDebug but I can't find it! - If there is no such magic answer to this question, what is the correct way to find such a phantom problem? Are there any other applications that might be better? If anyone has any personal recommendations for Consultants able to look at and fix this sort of problem that would be much appreciated too; I am now well out of my depth and sinking fast! Many thanks for any help, Alex -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php XDebug can produce a result showing time spent in each function across an entire run. So if you were somehow able to turn on xdebug and reproduce this issue, it would indeed say what function/method this was happening in. http://xdebug.org/docs/profiler Sounds like that'd be pretty tricky, so good luck. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49733d18.6080...@bigskypenguin.com... I will be brief. Tony is a dick. To quote your own words: There's just no need to insult other list members like this. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org Peace Love, Skip Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? It's NOT just so we can blast each other and show off our highly dubiously assumed superiority. With all the frustrations we put up with in our daily lives, I would hope a list like this, especially since we are among colleagues, could be a place we could at least cautiously expect to be treated with respect. Then the OP should respect PHP for what it is, and not request changes that would make it unusable for 99.999% of the millions of programmers who have already written millions of programs with it. PHP is successful because of the way it works, and changing the way it works, as suggested by the OP, would not make it more successful. On the contrary, I think that it would PHuck it up completely. But that's just my opinion. -- Skip Evans Big Sky Penguin, LLC 503 S Baldwin St, #1 Madison WI 53703 608.250.2720 http://bigskypenguin.com Those of you who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. -- Kurt Vonnegut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Project management systems
There are a number on sourceforge.net that are worth looking at Bastien Sent from my iPod On Jan 18, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote: Hey all (except Tony), I've been using dotProject for a few years now and have been quite happy with it, and have written my own invoicing module, and a few other mods for the way I track hours for subcontractors, etc. But it has trouble with MySQL 5 and from the Googling I've done it doesn't seem likely it will be fixed soon. Besides, I've hacked my install up quite a bit and if I were to upgrade there'd trouble 'a foot, ya'll. I'm considering switching to something else, and the start of a new year would be a good time since my subs have all been given their 10-99s so I can start fresh. Suggestions for a PHP based PM system? I'd like to be able to make mods so PHP is the logical choice since it's the language I know best, and as Tony will tell you, it's perfect and doesn't need no feeble minded Java guys trying to improve it. Basic requirements are time tracking for multiple coders, generating invoices per project based on start and end date (I bill the 15th and last day of each month). Gee, I guess that's the basics. Thoughts, opinions, corrections to grammar? -- Skip Evans Big Sky Penguin, LLC 503 S Baldwin St, #1 Madison WI 53703 608.250.2720 http://bigskypenguin.com Those of you who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. -- Kurt Vonnegut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
You're right, and as soon as you apologize to Nathan for calling him feeble minded (and promise to adjust your attitude) I will apologize to you. I also think it would be a good idea for you to address the rest of the list and assure everyone you will try to be more polite in the future. Skip PS. And then adopt an abandoned puppy. Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49733d18.6080...@bigskypenguin.com... I will be brief. Tony is a dick. To quote your own words: There's just no need to insult other list members like this. -- Skip Evans Big Sky Penguin, LLC 503 S Baldwin St, #1 Madison WI 53703 608.250.2720 http://bigskypenguin.com Those of you who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. -- Kurt Vonnegut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Project management systems
Hey Pfffster all, D'oh! Should have gone there first. Found this one that looks interesting. IT Project Guide- Project Management http://sourceforge.net/projects/itpgpm/ Web based Client and Team project management tool. Utilizes PHP, MySQL and JQuery. Has Company, Project, Task, Forum and Files modules and associated Gantt charts. Based on dotProject and Web2Project. Reduced complexity with the focus on ease of use. I'll download it and give it a spin. Hope this baby handles good in town. Skip Phpster wrote: There are a number on sourceforge.net that are worth looking at Bastien Sent from my iPod -- Skip Evans Big Sky Penguin, LLC 503 S Baldwin St, #1 Madison WI 53703 608.250.2720 http://bigskypenguin.com Those of you who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. -- Kurt Vonnegut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: Tony Marston wrote: If you really *need* to used a staticly typed language then don't use PHP, and don't try to change PHP to match your needs. why not? Because your desired functionality is already satisfied by other programming languages. PHP is an interpreted language with all the strengths and weaknesses that come with it. A need for static or compile-time typing is a need for a different language, honestly. /Per Jessen, Zürich why so strongly against having *optional* static typing? You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't/shouldn't have strong and loose typing in the same language. In my opinion. Instead of providing programmers with a black or white choice between static or dynamic typing, we should instead strive for softer type systems. That is, static typing where possible, dynamic typing when needed. Unfortunately there is a discontinuity between contemporary statically typed and dynamically typed languages as well as a huge technical and cultural gap between the respective language communities. The problems surrounding hybrid statically and dynamically typed languages are largely not understood, and both camps often use arguments that cut no ice. We argue that there is no need to polarize the differences, and instead we should focus on leveraging the strengths of each side. [1] IMHO if it was to classify all the languages (specifically server side languages for web apps), PHP has 95% of the features i need, the rest come no where near, so it's the obvious candidate to get this remaining 5% that'd make it perfect and open it up to a whole set of new users and markets. _If_ the remaining 5% will really open it up to a whole set of new users and markets, all you have to do is sit back and wait. I'm not so sure though. One of the great things about PHP is that it is easy and approachable for beginners, also without formal computer science training. Write some code, bang it in a webserver, and bob's your uncle. If we make PHP more complex, we might well lose that. completely agree; it would all be optional though (much like the already existing type hinting) - so I can't see it having any impact on anybody already using php or anybody learning (any negative imapact that is) By all means create a PHP++, but leave PHP as it is. It has enough feature-bloat already. you do have a good point, I've thought that myself often and indeed it was brought up in the namespace discussions - however if it's optional then why fork? * 1 - http://pico.vub.ac.be/~wdmeuter/RDL04/papers/Meijer.pdf -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] phpMailer Problem!
$mail-Port = 80; Invalid mail port Further to that, the normal port for SMTP is 25. -- Richard Heyes HTML5 Graphing for Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari: http://www.rgraph.org (Updated January 17th) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham wrote: You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't/shouldn't have strong and loose typing in the same language. In my opinion. Instead of providing programmers with a black or white choice between static or dynamic typing, we should instead strive for softer type systems. That is, static typing where possible, dynamic typing when needed. Unfortunately there is a discontinuity between contemporary statically typed and dynamically typed languages as well as a huge technical and cultural gap between the respective language communities. I'm not sure whether to take you seriously now - you're quoting from a Microsoft research paper? :-) By all means create a PHP++, but leave PHP as it is. It has enough feature-bloat already. you do have a good point, I've thought that myself often and indeed it was brought up in the namespace discussions - however if it's optional then why fork? Because it would be such a major change (as Tony has also pointed out) - ones PHP code would work with php -normal, but would fail miserably with php -strongtyping. In essence, with your optional strong typing enabled, you'd have a different language. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: point is.. Java let's me easily do 70% of what I need to PHP let's me easily do 95% of what I need to I'm curious - can you list what the 25% are? it lacks dynamic typing, the ability to procedural code and its precompiled not interpreted; all in a hello world in php is 10 seconds, in java it's nigh on 10 minutes. Hence why php is such a good language If we could get that 5% added then PHP would be perfect, not only that but me and the rest of the team at work would be able to make our multi-million pound enterprise projects in PHP instead of java; as would so many others (that can't be a bad thing for PHP) But why? Why not use Java and J2EE and all that good stuff? I'm not much of a java fan myself, but you've got to give credit where credit is due. well I can give two examples: Three other PHP Developers and myself spent the best part of a year creating a large multi-site event management system in PHP; the whole process was deeply frustrating primarily due to the lack of optional static typing and there in the lack of a solid ORM; with this small addition the whole process would have been a 6 month process if that, and a far more pleasurable experience. Currently 7 other Java developers and myself are building a large multisite transportation management and ticketing system in Java, this is a 9 month project with a decent sized and very skilled team; because of the lack of static typing (and thus the lack of development tools and frameworks/orms for PHP) we've had to go with Java; TBH the static typing is only needed on the domain model and the api layer, the bulk of the business logic in between where the majority of the work comes in, would be a great deal easier using a mix of procedural code and dynamic typing. I'd argue that again the development time of this project could be halfed if it was done in PHP AND if in PHP had support for optional static typing coupled with a good ORM. Further the difference between precompilation and interpretation is v noticable when it comes to rolling applications out, often in development you want to run a hlaf built or broken application to see what happens and check if parts x y and z are good + to test your infrastructure; when you can't compile and do this testing becuase the app isn't bug free or completed it's rather limiting. Sometimes unit tests just don't cover what you need. Additionally, rather sure you'd see a mass influx of people moving to php, and applications created for it - even down to design tools such as reverse and forward engineering between uml and php. ack.. there's a tonne of amazing tools and frameworks for java, and I'm sure that a vast majority of them are possible because of this static typing (from orms to web service frameworks and all in between) - am I so bad for wanting that for php and my fellow devs? No, you're not so bad :-) The point is - why not just use Java, when you really need the features? the cases above should show why, fact is (imho) PHP would be a far better language than java for web based applications in 99% of cases if it had this optional static typing and the tools that allows. *IF* it did, then 10 other people and myself wouldn't have wasted a year of there lives on writing what could be unneeded code; I'm sure I'm not the only one in this position. I've already quoted this, but in this context I feel it's appropriate to reiterate: Instead of providing programmers with a black or white choice between static or dynamic typing, we should instead strive for softer type systems. That is, static typing where possible, dynamic typing when needed. Unfortunately there is a discontinuity between contemporary statically typed and dynamically typed languages as well as a huge technical and cultural gap between the respective language communities. The problems surrounding hybrid statically and dynamically typed languages are largely not understood, and both camps often use arguments that cut no ice. We argue that there is no need to polarize the differences, and instead we should focus on leveraging the strengths of each side. Regards! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't/shouldn't have strong and loose typing in the same language. In my opinion. Instead of providing programmers with a black or white choice between static or dynamic typing, we should instead strive for softer type systems. That is, static typing where possible, dynamic typing when needed. Unfortunately there is a discontinuity between contemporary statically typed and dynamically typed languages as well as a huge technical and cultural gap between the respective language communities. I'm not sure whether to take you seriously now - you're quoting from a Microsoft research paper? :-) lol well picked up - for all I'm a linux fan M$ aren't all bad and hell they must have some very good programmers in the various teams, seems a shame to invalidate thier hard work and research just because they work for satan. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham wrote: If we could get that 5% added then PHP would be perfect, not only that but me and the rest of the team at work would be able to make our multi-million pound enterprise projects in PHP instead of java; as would so many others (that can't be a bad thing for PHP) But why? Why not use Java and J2EE and all that good stuff? I'm not much of a java fan myself, but you've got to give credit where credit is due. well I can give two examples: Three other PHP Developers and myself spent the best part of a year creating a large multi-site event management system in PHP; the whole process was deeply frustrating primarily due to the lack of optional static typing and there in the lack of a solid ORM; with this small addition the whole process would have been a 6 month process if that, and a far more pleasurable experience. I think that's at best an example of someone having chosen the wrong tool. I can easily appreciate the frustration. My own rule-of-thumb - scripts are for small things and rapid prototyping. Once when a script (regardless of language) grows towards 1000 lines, start thinking about writing it in C (or whatever else is appropriate). I know of too many situations where thousands of lines of script code have turned into maintenance nightmares. Currently 7 other Java developers and myself are building a large multisite transportation management and ticketing system in Java, this is a 9 month project with a decent sized and very skilled team; because of the lack of static typing (and thus the lack of development tools and frameworks/orms for PHP) we've had to go with Java; TBH the static typing is only needed on the domain model and the api layer, the bulk of the business logic in between where the majority of the work comes in, would be a great deal easier using a mix of procedural code and dynamic typing. I'd argue that again the development time of this project could be halfed if it was done in PHP AND if in PHP had support for optional static typing coupled with a good ORM. First of all - development time is largely irrelevant, Nathan - I think the standard rule is that program lifetime = 25% development time + 75% maintenance time. Second - instead of discussing optional strong typing for PHP, I think you need to look at why your productivity in Java is only half of that of PHP. Your tools for Java development are far more sophisticated, you've got the strong typing you want - what's reducing your productivity? Further the difference between precompilation and interpretation is v noticable when it comes to rolling applications out, often in development you want to run a hlaf built or broken application to see what happens and check if parts x y and z are good + to test your infrastructure; when you can't compile and do this testing becuase the app isn't bug free or completed it's rather limiting. Sometimes unit tests just don't cover what you need. I agree. You need a full blown test system. That is pretty much the norm in a corporate environment - I've certainly never worked anywhere that didn't have separate test systems. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] To check for existing user in database
At 10:36 AM -0600 1/16/09, Shawn McKenzie wrote: mysql_num_rows() may make more sense, however mysql_affected_rows() will work the same with a select. The PHP mysql_affected_rows() calls the MySQL mysql_affected_rows(), which states: For SELECT statements, mysql_affected_rows() works like mysql_num_rows(). -- Thanks! -Shawn I guess that explains why my code is still working. I had been using mysql_num_rows() to see if anything had been returned from a successful search, but had a problem of some sort. So, I started using mysql_affected_rows() and the problem vanished -- as such, that became my preferred method. However, I had been remiss in reading the manuals. So after all of this, I plan of setting up tests and testing all combinations to see how this actually works. While the manual says one thing, it appears that the application can be a bit different. Of course, I could be wrong. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words alone. (you did say I was feeble brained though..) Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and increase the scope where I can use php. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase, yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my productivity it can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_ and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for php such as the one in symphony. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? there you go with the feeble minded again tony.. a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and votes. b: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and has been for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex problems on this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php, contribute to open source projects and release packages which many thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many other languages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm not so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, it's not - but it's a damn good language. c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on you're php the cobol way approach, I can easily cope with the difference, can you comprehend that it wouldn't be changing any existing functionality only adding new *optional* functionality. PHP has support for objects and classes, right down to type hinting on arguments, exceptions, inheritance, reflection the whole lot - to add in the bits that are missing seems rather logical to me; thats why we've got the OO features that already exist. give me one good reason why optional type hinting / static typing of class properties and normal variables would be a bad thing? and another of how it would have any impact at all on you. It's NOT just so we can blast each other and show off our highly dubiously assumed superiority. With all the frustrations we put up with in our daily lives, I would hope a list like this, especially since we are among colleagues, could be a place we could at least cautiously expect to be treated with respect. Then the OP should respect PHP for what it is, and not request changes that would make it unusable for 99.999% of the millions of programmers who have already written millions of programs with it. PHP is successful because of the way it works, and changing the way it works, as suggested by the OP, would not make it more successful. On the contrary, I think that it would PHuck it up completely. But that's just my opinion. make it unusable for 99.999% of the millions of programmers who have already written millions of programs with it - eh.. read tony; OPTIONAL, this wouldn't have any impact or break any bc if done correctly - just like typehinting on methods didn't.. php would work the same, just add in some *optional* functionality for those who do need it, or
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:497354c3.9090...@gmail.com... Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: point is.. Java let's me easily do 70% of what I need to PHP let's me easily do 95% of what I need to I'm curious - can you list what the 25% are? it lacks dynamic typing, the ability to procedural code and its precompiled not interpreted; all in a hello world in php is 10 seconds, in java it's nigh on 10 minutes. Hence why php is such a good language If we could get that 5% added then PHP would be perfect, not only that but me and the rest of the team at work would be able to make our multi-million pound enterprise projects in PHP instead of java; as would so many others (that can't be a bad thing for PHP) But why? Why not use Java and J2EE and all that good stuff? I'm not much of a java fan myself, but you've got to give credit where credit is due. well I can give two examples: Three other PHP Developers and myself spent the best part of a year creating a large multi-site event management system in PHP; the whole process was deeply frustrating primarily due to the lack of optional static typing and there in the lack of a solid ORM; with this small addition the whole process would have been a 6 month process if that, and a far more pleasurable experience. Really? In 2007 I single-handedly designed and built an ERP system with 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000 screens, all with PHP and without an ORM and static typing. This took me 6 months. If you can't equal that then either you are not much of a programmer, or your development style is not as good as you think it is. If other people can write perfectly good applications in PHP without the extra features that you say are indispensible then why can't you? Currently 7 other Java developers and myself are building a large multisite transportation management and ticketing system in Java, this is a 9 month project with a decent sized and very skilled team; because of the lack of static typing (and thus the lack of development tools and frameworks/orms for PHP) we've had to go with Java; TBH the static typing is only needed on the domain model and the api layer, the bulk of the business logic in between where the majority of the work comes in, would be a great deal easier using a mix of procedural code and dynamic typing. I'd argue that again the development time of this project could be halfed if it was done in PHP AND if in PHP had support for optional static typing coupled with a good ORM. If you want a good ORM then write one yourself, or is that beyond your capabilities? Personally I wouldn't touch an ORM with a barge pole. I develop applications using the 3 Tier Architecture (no, it's not the same as MVC) with a Data Access layer that I can easily switch between MySQL, PostgreSQL and Oracle. If I can do it then why can't you? Further the difference between precompilation and interpretation is v noticable when it comes to rolling applications out, often in development you want to run a hlaf built or broken application to see what happens and check if parts x y and z are good + to test your infrastructure; when you can't compile and do this testing becuase the app isn't bug free or completed it's rather limiting. Sometimes unit tests just don't cover what you need. Additionally, rather sure you'd see a mass influx of people moving to php, and applications created for it - even down to design tools such as reverse and forward engineering between uml and php. ack.. there's a tonne of amazing tools and frameworks for java, and I'm sure that a vast majority of them are possible because of this static typing (from orms to web service frameworks and all in between) - am I so bad for wanting that for php and my fellow devs? No, you're not so bad :-) The point is - why not just use Java, when you really need the features? the cases above should show why, fact is (imho) PHP would be a far better language than java for web based applications in 99% of cases if it had this optional static typing and the tools that allows. *IF* it did, then 10 other people and myself wouldn't have wasted a year of there lives on writing what could be unneeded code; I'm sure I'm not the only one in this position. If you spend a year writing useless code, then it's your fault, not PHPs. It's a bad workman who blames his tools. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org I've already quoted this, but in this context I feel it's appropriate to reiterate: Instead of providing programmers with a black or white choice between static or dynamic typing, we should instead strive for softer type systems. That is, static typing where possible, dynamic typing when needed. Unfortunately there is a discontinuity between contemporary statically typed and dynamically typed languages as well as a huge technical
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham wrote: Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't/shouldn't have strong and loose typing in the same language. In my opinion. Instead of providing programmers with a black or white choice between static or dynamic typing, we should instead strive for softer type systems. That is, static typing where possible, dynamic typing when needed. Unfortunately there is a discontinuity between contemporary statically typed and dynamically typed languages as well as a huge technical and cultural gap between the respective language communities. I'm not sure whether to take you seriously now - you're quoting from a Microsoft research paper? :-) lol well picked up - for all I'm a linux fan M$ aren't all bad and hell they must have some very good programmers in the various teams, seems a shame to invalidate thier hard work and research just because they work for satan. Completely agree, I just thought I'd score an easy point ... /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:497366f5.2030...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words alone. (you did say I was feeble brained though..) Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and increase the scope where I can use php. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase, yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my productivity it can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_ and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for php such as the one in symphony. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? there you go with the feeble minded again tony.. a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and votes. Yes, I think that any programmer who wants to change PHP so that it looks and feels more like his current language of choice simply because he cannot cope with the differences is feeble minded. b: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and has been for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex problems on this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php, contribute to open source projects and release packages which many thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many other languages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm not so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, it's not - but it's a damn good language. c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on you're php the cobol way approach, I can easily cope with the difference, can you comprehend that it wouldn't be changing any existing functionality only adding new *optional* functionality. As others have already pointed out it would simply not be feasible to change PHP so that it can be switched between dynamic typing to static typing at the flick of a switch. PHP is dynamicly typed, so either get used to it or switch to a different language. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org PHP has support for objects and classes, right down to type hinting on arguments, exceptions, inheritance, reflection the whole lot - to add in the bits that are missing seems rather logical to me; thats why we've got the OO features that already exist. give me one good reason why optional type hinting / static typing of class properties and normal variables would be a bad thing? and another of how it would have any impact at all on you. It's NOT just so we can blast each other and show off our highly dubiously assumed superiority. With all the frustrations we put up with in our daily lives, I would hope a list like this, especially since we are among colleagues, could be a place we could at least cautiously expect to be treated with respect. Then the OP should respect PHP for what it is, and not request changes that would make it unusable for 99.999% of the
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Per Jessen schreef: Nathan Rixham wrote: Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't/shouldn't have strong and loose typing in the same language. In my opinion. Instead of providing programmers with a black or white choice between static or dynamic typing, we should instead strive for softer type systems. That is, static typing where possible, dynamic typing when needed. Unfortunately there is a discontinuity between contemporary statically typed and dynamically typed languages as well as a huge technical and cultural gap between the respective language communities. I'm not sure whether to take you seriously now - you're quoting from a Microsoft research paper? :-) lol well picked up - for all I'm a linux fan M$ aren't all bad and hell they must have some very good programmers in the various teams, seems a shame to invalidate thier hard work and research just because they work for satan. Completely agree, I just thought I'd score an easy point ... +1 to you both :-) /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Tony Marston wrote: Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:497354c3.9090...@gmail.com... Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: point is.. Java let's me easily do 70% of what I need to PHP let's me easily do 95% of what I need to I'm curious - can you list what the 25% are? it lacks dynamic typing, the ability to procedural code and its precompiled not interpreted; all in a hello world in php is 10 seconds, in java it's nigh on 10 minutes. Hence why php is such a good language If we could get that 5% added then PHP would be perfect, not only that but me and the rest of the team at work would be able to make our multi-million pound enterprise projects in PHP instead of java; as would so many others (that can't be a bad thing for PHP) But why? Why not use Java and J2EE and all that good stuff? I'm not much of a java fan myself, but you've got to give credit where credit is due. well I can give two examples: Three other PHP Developers and myself spent the best part of a year creating a large multi-site event management system in PHP; the whole process was deeply frustrating primarily due to the lack of optional static typing and there in the lack of a solid ORM; with this small addition the whole process would have been a 6 month process if that, and a far more pleasurable experience. Really? In 2007 I single-handedly designed and built an ERP system with 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000 screens, all with PHP and without an ORM and static typing. This took me 6 months. If you can't equal that then either you are not much of a programmer, or your development style is not as good as you think it is. If other people can write perfectly good applications in PHP without the extra features that you say are indispensible then why can't you? clap clap, would you like to compare dick size? You have no idea of the size or scope of the applications I've developed by myself or as part of team tony, so why even attempt to comment? Why assume that I haven't written perfectly good applications in PHP and that incapable of it when the opposite is true. Again tony, nobody is knocking php simply saying that in some scenarios development time could be speeded up by adding in static typing; perhaps you've not came accross this but I and others have. Currently 7 other Java developers and myself are building a large multisite transportation management and ticketing system in Java, this is a 9 month project with a decent sized and very skilled team; because of the lack of static typing (and thus the lack of development tools and frameworks/orms for PHP) we've had to go with Java; TBH the static typing is only needed on the domain model and the api layer, the bulk of the business logic in between where the majority of the work comes in, would be a great deal easier using a mix of procedural code and dynamic typing. I'd argue that again the development time of this project could be halfed if it was done in PHP AND if in PHP had support for optional static typing coupled with a good ORM. If you want a good ORM then write one yourself, or is that beyond your capabilities? already am tony, and have spotted areas where by adding optional static typing: a: it could be improved b: code could be optimized c: development time could be considerably reduced Personally I wouldn't touch an ORM with a barge pole. I develop applications using the 3 Tier Architecture (no, it's not the same as MVC) with a Data Access layer that I can easily switch between MySQL, PostgreSQL and Oracle. If I can do it then why can't you? likewise, although I would touch an ORM in certain cases (but not with your barge pole), frequently use modified n-tier or the good ol 3 tier architecture with preference going to using a class based oo paradigm rather than a prototype style, and have written many data access and persistance layers which can switch between different RDBMS both pre pdo and post pdo. If I can see the need for this.. why can't you? weg Further the difference between precompilation and interpretation is v noticable when it comes to rolling applications out, often in development you want to run a hlaf built or broken application to see what happens and check if parts x y and z are good + to test your infrastructure; when you can't compile and do this testing becuase the app isn't bug free or completed it's rather limiting. Sometimes unit tests just don't cover what you need. Additionally, rather sure you'd see a mass influx of people moving to php, and applications created for it - even down to design tools such as reverse and forward engineering between uml and php. ack.. there's a tonne of amazing tools and frameworks for java, and I'm sure that a vast majority of them are possible because of this static typing (from orms to web service frameworks and all in between) - am I so bad for wanting that for php and my fellow devs? No, you're not so
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Tony Marston wrote: Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:497366f5.2030...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words alone. (you did say I was feeble brained though..) Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and increase the scope where I can use php. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase, yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my productivity it can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_ and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for php such as the one in symphony. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? there you go with the feeble minded again tony.. a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and votes. Yes, I think that any programmer who wants to change PHP so that it looks and feels more like his current language of choice simply because he cannot cope with the differences is feeble minded. but tony.. PHP is my current language of choice.. b: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and has been for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex problems on this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php, contribute to open source projects and release packages which many thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many other languages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm not so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, it's not - but it's a damn good language. c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on you're php the cobol way approach, I can easily cope with the difference, can you comprehend that it wouldn't be changing any existing functionality only adding new *optional* functionality. As others have already pointed out it would simply not be feasible to change PHP so that it can be switched between dynamic typing to static typing at the flick of a switch. PHP is dynamicly typed, so either get used to it or switch to a different language. flick of a switch? I'd be suggesting fully implemented optional code. php is dynamically typed WITH type hinting on methods, this would just be type hinting on variables as well. why switch when a: php could have this implemented b: I'm capable of using multiple languages and picking the correct one for each scenario. c: there is a gap between dynamic and statically typed languages that php already addresses in part with typehinting on methods, it could fully address this gap easily and be the best of both world for strict and dynamic typers, just like it pretty much does for procedural and oo coders. ps: already am used to it, will continue to be, but would like to see it implemented. pps: rar rar rar tony, are you tony the tiger from that breakfast cerial? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Jochem Maas wrote: Per Jessen schreef: Nathan Rixham wrote: Per Jessen wrote: Nathan Rixham wrote: You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't/shouldn't have strong and loose typing in the same language. In my opinion. Instead of providing programmers with a black or white choice between static or dynamic typing, we should instead strive for softer type systems. That is, static typing where possible, dynamic typing when needed. Unfortunately there is a discontinuity between contemporary statically typed and dynamically typed languages as well as a huge technical and cultural gap between the respective language communities. I'm not sure whether to take you seriously now - you're quoting from a Microsoft research paper? :-) lol well picked up - for all I'm a linux fan M$ aren't all bad and hell they must have some very good programmers in the various teams, seems a shame to invalidate thier hard work and research just because they work for satan. Completely agree, I just thought I'd score an easy point ... +1 to you both :-) omfg positivety returns to the list :-D cheers guys! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
2009/1/18 Tony Marston t...@marston-home.demon.co.uk: Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:497366f5.2030...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words alone. (you did say I was feeble brained though..) Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and increase the scope where I can use php. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase, yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my productivity it can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_ and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for php such as the one in symphony. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? there you go with the feeble minded again tony.. a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and votes. Yes, I think that any programmer who wants to change PHP so that it looks and feels more like his current language of choice simply because he cannot cope with the differences is feeble minded. And I think any participant on this list who cannot reasonably respond to perfectly reasonable suggestions without resorting to child-like name-calling should reconsider their personal brand. Every time I see you contribute to this list you manage to lessen the respect I have for you as a person nevermind as a developer. PHP would not have the OO capabilities it has if developers hadn't compared it to other languages and said yes, that would be a useful addition. Improvements don't happen without inspiration, and definitely won't happen if people feel threatened when they make suggestions. b: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and has been for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex problems on this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php, contribute to open source projects and release packages which many thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many other languages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm not so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, it's not - but it's a damn good language. c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on you're php the cobol way approach, I can easily cope with the difference, can you comprehend that it wouldn't be changing any existing functionality only adding new *optional* functionality. As others have already pointed out it would simply not be feasible to change PHP so that it can be switched between dynamic typing to static typing at the flick of a switch. PHP is dynamicly typed, so either get used to it or switch to a different language. I don't recall seeing anyone say it's not feasible, just that it comes with costs other PHP developers might not be happy with. Performance makes it tricky, BC could make it tricky and there's probably a whole bunch of other issues that might make it difficult, but it's certainly possible. As far as your if I can do it why can't you comment goes,
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:49737051.9080...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:497366f5.2030...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words alone. (you did say I was feeble brained though..) Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and increase the scope where I can use php. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase, yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my productivity it can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_ and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for php such as the one in symphony. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? there you go with the feeble minded again tony.. a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and votes. Yes, I think that any programmer who wants to change PHP so that it looks and feels more like his current language of choice simply because he cannot cope with the differences is feeble minded. but tony.. PHP is my current language of choice.. If it is your language of choice the it must be better than the alernatives. So if it is better then why are you saying that it is virually unusable without the improvements that you have suggested? b: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and has been for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex problems on this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php, contribute to open source projects and release packages which many thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many other languages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm not so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, it's not - but it's a damn good language. c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on you're php the cobol way approach, I can easily cope with the difference, can you comprehend that it wouldn't be changing any existing functionality only adding new *optional* functionality. As others have already pointed out it would simply not be feasible to change PHP so that it can be switched between dynamic typing to static typing at the flick of a switch. PHP is dynamicly typed, so either get used to it or switch to a different language. flick of a switch? I'd be suggesting fully implemented optional code. php is dynamically typed WITH type hinting on methods, this would just be type hinting on variables as well. You did not ask for type HINTING on variables, you asked for static TYPING which is a different kettle of fish. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org why switch when a: php could have this implemented b: I'm capable of using multiple languages and picking the correct one for each scenario. c: there is a gap between dynamic and statically typed languages that php already addresses
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Stuart stut...@gmail.com wrote in message news:a5f019de0901181015g5e2db21fn2782839ab9648...@mail.gmail.com... 2009/1/18 Tony Marston t...@marston-home.demon.co.uk: Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:497366f5.2030...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words alone. (you did say I was feeble brained though..) Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and increase the scope where I can use php. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase, yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my productivity it can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_ and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for php such as the one in symphony. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? there you go with the feeble minded again tony.. a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and votes. Yes, I think that any programmer who wants to change PHP so that it looks and feels more like his current language of choice simply because he cannot cope with the differences is feeble minded. And I think any participant on this list who cannot reasonably respond to perfectly reasonable suggestions In case you have forgotten what this thread is about, the OP gave a list of suggested improvements to PHP and asked for opinions. I merely gave my opinion that these improvements would be a waste of time as they would add nothing to the language (IMHO, of course). How many in this frum have expressed any support for any of these improvements? without resorting to child-like name-calling should reconsider their personal brand. Every time I see you contribute to this list you manage to lessen the respect I have for you as a person nevermind as a developer. PHP would not have the OO capabilities it has if developers hadn't compared it to other languages and said yes, that would be a useful addition. Improvements don't happen without inspiration, and definitely won't happen if people feel threatened when they make suggestions. b: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and has been for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex problems on this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php, contribute to open source projects and release packages which many thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many other languages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm not so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, it's not - but it's a damn good language. c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on you're php the cobol way approach, I can easily cope with the difference, can you comprehend that it wouldn't be changing any existing functionality only adding new *optional* functionality. As others have already pointed out it would simply not be feasible to change PHP so that it can be switched
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Tony Marston wrote: Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:49737051.9080...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:497366f5.2030...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words alone. (you did say I was feeble brained though..) Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and increase the scope where I can use php. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase, yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my productivity it can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_ and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for php such as the one in symphony. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? there you go with the feeble minded again tony.. a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and votes. Yes, I think that any programmer who wants to change PHP so that it looks and feels more like his current language of choice simply because he cannot cope with the differences is feeble minded. but tony.. PHP is my current language of choice.. If it is your language of choice the it must be better than the alernatives. So if it is better then why are you saying that it is virually unusable without the improvements that you have suggested? it's very usable tony and is beter than the alternatives (for developing server side web applications fitting most common specs [imho]); but the improvements I've suggested would make it more usable (ie allow me to use php more efficiently in even more scenarios). Been able to use php to make almost everything needed so far; but sometimes it does feel a bit hacky and sometimes I can see how a specific part of the entire app could be made better in another language). Perhaps this addresses something per jesson said as well actually. There is often a case where php suits 75% of the application while the remaning 25% would be better suited in another language; in this scenario often the two can't be seperated and thus rather than coding around the functionality lacking it would be preferable to have the limitation addressed in the language (if possible). how non confrontational was that :p! b: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and has been for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex problems on this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php, contribute to open source projects and release packages which many thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many other languages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm not so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, it's not - but it's a damn good language. c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on you're php the cobol way approach, I can easily cope with the difference, can you comprehend that it wouldn't be changing any existing functionality only adding new *optional*
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Tony Marston wrote: Stuart stut...@gmail.com wrote in message news:a5f019de0901181015g5e2db21fn2782839ab9648...@mail.gmail.com... 2009/1/18 Tony Marston t...@marston-home.demon.co.uk: Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:497366f5.2030...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Skip Evans s...@bigskypenguin.com wrote in message news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com... Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourself with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone? Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his way to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote: Absolute rubbish! There's just no need to insult other list members like this. Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not. agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words alone. (you did say I was feeble brained though..) Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be. And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not. you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and increase the scope where I can use php. It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions, What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs. inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase, yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my productivity it can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_ and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for php such as the one in symphony. lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely. If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired from reading posts such as this which say I'm used to language X, and my feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X? there you go with the feeble minded again tony.. a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and votes. Yes, I think that any programmer who wants to change PHP so that it looks and feels more like his current language of choice simply because he cannot cope with the differences is feeble minded. And I think any participant on this list who cannot reasonably respond to perfectly reasonable suggestions In case you have forgotten what this thread is about, the OP gave a list of suggested improvements to PHP and asked for opinions. I merely gave my opinion that these improvements would be a waste of time as they would add nothing to the language (IMHO, of course). How many in this frum have expressed any support for any of these improvements? you know; other than type hinting of primatives and the ability to type hint that a method argument - no they haven't; which has actually really suprised me tbh - I was just thinking if I compeltely renamed and simplified the post what the outcome would be.. I think it may be suprising, people can be very fickle over terminology (and change). without resorting to child-like name-calling should reconsider their personal brand. Every time I see you contribute to this list you manage to lessen the respect I have for you as a person nevermind as a developer. PHP would not have the OO capabilities it has if developers hadn't compared it to other languages and said yes, that would be a useful addition. Improvements don't happen without inspiration, and definitely won't happen if people feel threatened when they make suggestions. b: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and has been for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex problems on this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php, contribute to open source projects and release packages which many thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many other languages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm not so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, it's not - but it's a damn good language. c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
2009/1/18 Tony Marston t...@marston-home.demon.co.uk: In case you have forgotten what this thread is about, the OP gave a list of suggested improvements to PHP and asked for opinions. I merely gave my opinion that these improvements would be a waste of time as they would add nothing to the language (IMHO, of course). How many in this frum have expressed any support for any of these improvements? That's not the point. You attacked the suggester not the suggestions. That's all I'm trying to point out. There's a way to disagree in a reasonable manner. not be feasible covers loss of performance, loss of BC and a whole bunch of other issues. If the cost of implementing your improvements is not worth the dubious benefit then why should they considered? Without adequate investigation or comment from people who actually know about this stuff it's impossible to say whether the costs are too great to make them acceptable against the benefits. OO had a massive negative effect on performance, but it still happened because the benefits greatly outweighed the costs. IMHO all ideas should be properly considered, regardless of my gut reaction to them. As far as your if I can do it why can't you comment goes, I don't think anything has been said that would imply Nathan is not just as capable of developing complex systems as you think you are. He has expressed a wish for some additional features in PHP because he's used other languages with those features and he likes them. Does this mean he's inexperienced or incapable? No, and it's a shame you can't see past the end of your superiority complex and acknowledge that. I never said that I am superior, just that the lack of these requested features has not stopped me, or many other PHP programmers I would imagine, from writing large, complex applications with PHP. I have used many languages in my 35+ year career, and I am far more productive with PHP than I have been with all the others. People rarely say they're superior, but that opinion often comes across in the way they interact with others. I don't care how long your career has been, there's a way to productively deal with other people. Coming back to the OO example, a lot of us got a lot done before that came along, but that didn't make it any less welcome when it arrived, and someone had to take the first step and suggest it. Attack people for making suggestions and you'll quickly lose a valuable source of ideas. I'm done with this now as you're clearly set in your ways and it's not adding value to the discussion. Nathan: I see you've taken this over to the internals list. I wish you luck with your suggestions. Keep 'em coming. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] optional type hinting enhancements
Hi All,
preface: Having discussed at great length previously and probably
completely misnaming and thus misleading the conversation here goes again.
question: Would anybody else like to see, or feel the need for,
*optional* type hinting of variables and class properties in PHP?
examples (all optional, and syntax may differ):
class Example {
private TypeHint $var;
}
Example $var = new Example();
in addition the ability to type hint primatives/scalars/[type object] in
the existing implementation:
function(bool $flag) {
}
function(object $flag) {
}
This would all be under the assumption and proviso that an
implementation would not break bc, have any markable perfomance hit, or
in any other way effect existing applications or new applications that
did not use the functionality (in the same way the existing type hinting
implementation doesn't)
Any +1's?
Regards.
--
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Re: [PHP] 100% CPU Usage somewhere in script - how to find it?
Hi Eric, Richard, Thank-you for your suggestions. I had already tried xdebug - the problem that I had is that because of the CPU overload it was showing pretty much everything as screwed! However by using absolute CPU time measures I managed to work out what method was involved, and on removing it the situation is completely resolved. I still wonder if there is a neater way to do this! Cheers, Alex On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Alex Davies a...@davz.net wrote: Hi, I use a (externally developed) library within my application which used to work fine. However, after a recent update (which unfortunately we can't roll back due to dependencies) I have crazy CPU loads - there are ~20 cores in total on the webservers and they have gone from an average utilization of ~5% to 99%. I am using lighttpd, and so I can see the php-cgi processes using 99% all my CPU! I have an extremely basic understanding of how to track this down, and using XDebug and KCacheGrind I think that I have a pretty good idea which area the problem lies in, but the problem is that because whatever it is that has broken is using up the whole CPU everything else slows down. Furthermore, it would appear that a large part of what gets scheduled is luck because sometimes things are instant and the same activity a short while later can take forever. However, based on absolute CPU time's from this XDebug/KCacheGrind analysis and a gut hunch based upon what has changed recently I think I know roughly what it is. I do have a diff of the recent code change, and I have looked at it to no avail. My questions are: - Is there a better way to see what is using up the CPU? There must be a single loop or something talking to an external service, that is using so much CPU user time. Is there a super-quick way to do to this? I really need to know what function (or even line) is using all that CPU time, because I can't spot it in the code. Perhaps this information can be obtained from XDebug but I can't find it! - If there is no such magic answer to this question, what is the correct way to find such a phantom problem? Are there any other applications that might be better? If anyone has any personal recommendations for Consultants able to look at and fix this sort of problem that would be much appreciated too; I am now well out of my depth and sinking fast! Many thanks for any help, Alex -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php XDebug can produce a result showing time spent in each function across an entire run. So if you were somehow able to turn on xdebug and reproduce this issue, it would indeed say what function/method this was happening in. http://xdebug.org/docs/profiler Sounds like that'd be pretty tricky, so good luck. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Alex Davies This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail permanently.
Re: [PHP] PMA_List_Database
Merlin Morgenstern wrote: Hi guys.. here comes the last question for today :-) Everything works fine. My Apps run beautiful with php5. The only thing now left which does not work ist phpmyadmin. I googled the error msg, but could only find servers which had the same problem. No solution to find. Config looks fine. Maybe somebody has an idea. This is the msg: Fatal error: Class 'PMA_List_Database' not found in /home/www/tools/mysqladmin/libraries/common.inc.php on line 862 (Just because it has 'php' in the name does not mean we support it). Ask the guys that look after phpmyadmin. http://www.phpmyadmin.net/home_page/support.php -- Postgresql php tutorials http://www.designmagick.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Project management systems
Skip Evans wrote: Hey all (except Tony), treat others how you want them to treat you *passes all his biscuits* - yet lol. I've been using dotProject for a few years now and have been quite happy with it, and have written my own invoicing module, and a few other mods for the way I track hours for subcontractors, etc. condolences But it has trouble with MySQL 5 and from the Googling I've done it doesn't seem likely it will be fixed soon. Besides, I've hacked my install up quite a bit and if I were to upgrade there'd trouble 'a foot, ya'll. maybe you'd be best fixing it yourself OR not upgrading to mysql 5? I'm considering switching to something else, and the start of a new year would be a good time since my subs have all been given their 10-99s so I can start fresh. really.. good luck and please let me know what you choose Suggestions for a PHP based PM system? I'd like to be able to make mods so PHP is the logical choice since it's the language I know best, and as Tony will tell you, it's perfect and doesn't need no feeble minded Java guys trying to improve it. . Basic requirements are time tracking for multiple coders, generating invoices per project based on start and end date (I bill the 15th and last day of each month). Gee, I guess that's the basics. Thoughts, opinions, corrections to grammar? not every ones cup of tea but rally agile development [http://www.rallydev.com/] if you don't do anything else with this link please watch this: http://www.rallydev.com/5601_Rally_15.html than consider what you want from a project management system. in all honesty though, no I can't - none seem to fit the bill completly and in every place I've ever worked, and personally, picking a good project management system has always been a major stumbling block / problem -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] optional type hinting enhancements
Nathan Rixham schreef:
Hi All,
preface: Having discussed at great length previously and probably
completely misnaming and thus misleading the conversation here goes again.
question: Would anybody else like to see, or feel the need for,
*optional* type hinting of variables and class properties in PHP?
examples (all optional, and syntax may differ):
class Example {
private TypeHint $var;
}
Example $var = new Example();
in addition the ability to type hint primatives/scalars/[type object] in
the existing implementation:
function(bool $flag) {
}
function(object $flag) {
}
This would all be under the assumption and proviso that an
implementation would not break bc, have any markable perfomance hit, or
in any other way effect existing applications or new applications that
did not use the functionality (in the same way the existing type hinting
implementation doesn't)
Any +1's?
can I give a +1 for you making a request to start a RFC on the matter ...
I'm sure LKS will give you perms to set up one on wiki.php.net/rfc.
some of your ideas have merit, some maybe not, others are likely to be
impossible
to implement from a performance technical POV.
either way, having a work-in-progress RFC for these ideas would give a solid
point
of reference for discussion. all/any of your ideas have much more chance of
making inroads if implementation/BC/performance/syntax details/proposals are
properly documented.
I think adhoc discussion via the mailing list leads generally nowhere with this
type of thing, there is too much noise and it's nigh on impossible to grok where
the status quo is at or what current the proposal might be.
some of your points lean purely to making php more consistent, they may even
be self-evident (e.g. completion of things your able to typehint) but
nonetheless
even that needs solid argumentation in order to win the minds of the guys that
will/may end up implementing it.
RFC is the way to go. I for one would gladly take time to read/review/comment,
if
nothing else it's interesting.
actually thinking about it you might consider thinking in terms of a collection
of RFC's (your ideas cover quite a lot of ground/scope) in order to maintain
tight
focus.
Regards.
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Re: [PHP] optional type hinting enhancements
I see a problem with this. Scalars are automatically casted by PHP based on
a set of rules. In case of a scalar type hint, would jo issue an error, or
make the automatic type cast? both approaches have there advantages, but
the automatic cast, would go better with the actual features of the
language, but in this case, object could also cast an array to stdClass, and
i am not sure that's how you imagined it. Besides this i am not against it
along as it doens't create implementaion nor performance problems, and this
problem is solved.
2009/1/18 Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com
Hi All,
preface: Having discussed at great length previously and probably
completely misnaming and thus misleading the conversation here goes again.
question: Would anybody else like to see, or feel the need for, *optional*
type hinting of variables and class properties in PHP?
examples (all optional, and syntax may differ):
class Example {
private TypeHint $var;
}
Example $var = new Example();
in addition the ability to type hint primatives/scalars/[type object] in
the existing implementation:
function(bool $flag) {
}
function(object $flag) {
}
This would all be under the assumption and proviso that an implementation
would not break bc, have any markable perfomance hit, or in any other way
effect existing applications or new applications that did not use the
functionality (in the same way the existing type hinting implementation
doesn't)
Any +1's?
Regards.
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
--
Torok, Alpar Istvan
Re: [PHP] optional type hinting enhancements
Jochem Maas wrote:
Nathan Rixham schreef:
Hi All,
preface: Having discussed at great length previously and probably
completely misnaming and thus misleading the conversation here goes again.
question: Would anybody else like to see, or feel the need for,
*optional* type hinting of variables and class properties in PHP?
examples (all optional, and syntax may differ):
class Example {
private TypeHint $var;
}
Example $var = new Example();
in addition the ability to type hint primatives/scalars/[type object] in
the existing implementation:
function(bool $flag) {
}
function(object $flag) {
}
This would all be under the assumption and proviso that an
implementation would not break bc, have any markable perfomance hit, or
in any other way effect existing applications or new applications that
did not use the functionality (in the same way the existing type hinting
implementation doesn't)
Any +1's?
can I give a +1 for you making a request to start a RFC on the matter ...
I'm sure LKS will give you perms to set up one on wiki.php.net/rfc.
lukas, thoughts? [ini proposals coming in a minute, just diff'ing]
some of your ideas have merit, some maybe not, others are likely to be
impossible
to implement from a performance technical POV.
either way, having a work-in-progress RFC for these ideas would give a solid
point
of reference for discussion. all/any of your ideas have much more chance of
making inroads if implementation/BC/performance/syntax details/proposals are
properly documented.
agreed and thanks for the idea.
I think adhoc discussion via the mailing list leads generally nowhere with this
type of thing, there is too much noise and it's nigh on impossible to grok where
the status quo is at or what current the proposal might be.
noticed that one; which is a shame tbh; alas..
some of your points lean purely to making php more consistent, they may even
be self-evident (e.g. completion of things your able to typehint) but
nonetheless
even that needs solid argumentation in order to win the minds of the guys that
will/may end up implementing it.
RFC is the way to go. I for one would gladly take time to read/review/comment,
if
nothing else it's interesting.
interesting it is; it's a shame the evangalism list died a death [not
sure why i see that as related, but i do]
actually thinking about it you might consider thinking in terms of a collection
of RFC's (your ideas cover quite a lot of ground/scope) in order to maintain
tight
focus.
agreed, probably
- enhancing / completing existing type hinting
- single superclass which all objects extend
- optional type hinting for variables and class parameters
- optional type hinting for return types (mind you thats already rfc'd)
- additional magic method __cast (needs more thought)
- constructor overloading
- generics and templates [i jest]
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Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Stuart stut...@gmail.com wrote in message news:a5f019de0901181322i2a4cbfaam4d36eff843f42...@mail.gmail.com... 2009/1/18 Tony Marston t...@marston-home.demon.co.uk: In case you have forgotten what this thread is about, the OP gave a list of suggested improvements to PHP and asked for opinions. I merely gave my opinion that these improvements would be a waste of time as they would add nothing to the language (IMHO, of course). How many in this frum have expressed any support for any of these improvements? That's not the point. You attacked the suggester not the suggestions. That's all I'm trying to point out. There's a way to disagree in a reasonable manner. Anybody who suggests that PHP be changed from dynamic typing to static typing is feeble minded, one brick short of a full load, one sandwich short of a picnic, off his trolley, talking out of the wrong end of his alimentary canal, etc, etc. In my humble opinion, of course. not be feasible covers loss of performance, loss of BC and a whole bunch of other issues. If the cost of implementing your improvements is not worth the dubious benefit then why should they considered? Without adequate investigation or comment from people who actually know about this stuff it's impossible to say whether the costs are too great to make them acceptable against the benefits. OO had a massive negative effect on performance, but it still happened because the benefits greatly outweighed the costs. IMHO all ideas should be properly considered, regardless of my gut reaction to them. Statuic typing is unworthy of consideration in a language whch has made its bones from being dynamically typed. In my humble opinion, of course. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org As far as your if I can do it why can't you comment goes, I don't think anything has been said that would imply Nathan is not just as capable of developing complex systems as you think you are. He has expressed a wish for some additional features in PHP because he's used other languages with those features and he likes them. Does this mean he's inexperienced or incapable? No, and it's a shame you can't see past the end of your superiority complex and acknowledge that. I never said that I am superior, just that the lack of these requested features has not stopped me, or many other PHP programmers I would imagine, from writing large, complex applications with PHP. I have used many languages in my 35+ year career, and I am far more productive with PHP than I have been with all the others. People rarely say they're superior, but that opinion often comes across in the way they interact with others. I don't care how long your career has been, there's a way to productively deal with other people. Coming back to the OO example, a lot of us got a lot done before that came along, but that didn't make it any less welcome when it arrived, and someone had to take the first step and suggest it. Attack people for making suggestions and you'll quickly lose a valuable source of ideas. I'm done with this now as you're clearly set in your ways and it's not adding value to the discussion. Nathan: I see you've taken this over to the internals list. I wish you luck with your suggestions. Keep 'em coming. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] optional type hinting enhancements
Török Alpár wrote: I see a problem with this. Scalars are automatically casted by PHP based on a set of rules. In case of a scalar type hint, would jo issue an error, or make the automatic type cast? both approaches have there advantages, but the automatic cast, would go better with the actual features of the language, but in this case, object could also cast an array to stdClass, and i am not sure that's how you imagined it. Besides this i am not against it along as it doens't create implementaion nor performance problems, and this problem is solved. I see what you mean with the casts; and a very good point on why scalars aren't already implemented.. On the one hand i see scope for a set of primative wrappers (class String, Integer, Boolean etc) which those who wished could use (with an auto cast). Whilst on the other hand it could be argued that the current is_xxx functionality could be copied so an integer in a string is still a string, likewise 1 is an integer not a boolean true etc etc. defintaly needs some thought and practical examples though.. rfc time one thinks. with the specific array example, this is already implemented so no problems there, what is not implemented though is the ability to function(object $obj) which seems strange. as for the error, same as it is currently E_RECOVERABLE_ERROR and def not automatic type casting; last thing you want when trying to be strict is anything like that :p thanks for the input! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Tony Marston wrote: Stuart stut...@gmail.com wrote in message news:a5f019de0901181322i2a4cbfaam4d36eff843f42...@mail.gmail.com... 2009/1/18 Tony Marston t...@marston-home.demon.co.uk: In case you have forgotten what this thread is about, the OP gave a list of suggested improvements to PHP and asked for opinions. I merely gave my opinion that these improvements would be a waste of time as they would add nothing to the language (IMHO, of course). How many in this frum have expressed any support for any of these improvements? That's not the point. You attacked the suggester not the suggestions. That's all I'm trying to point out. There's a way to disagree in a reasonable manner. Anybody who suggests that PHP be changed from dynamic typing to static typing is feeble minded, one brick short of a full load, one sandwich short of a picnic, off his trolley, talking out of the wrong end of his alimentary canal, etc, etc. In my humble opinion, of course. luckily.. nobody suggested that and the only person who came close was tony himself :D perhaps the phrase optional type hinting of variables and class properties is more appropriate ;) not be feasible covers loss of performance, loss of BC and a whole bunch of other issues. If the cost of implementing your improvements is not worth the dubious benefit then why should they considered? Without adequate investigation or comment from people who actually know about this stuff it's impossible to say whether the costs are too great to make them acceptable against the benefits. OO had a massive negative effect on performance, but it still happened because the benefits greatly outweighed the costs. IMHO all ideas should be properly considered, regardless of my gut reaction to them. Statuic typing is unworthy of consideration in a language whch has made its bones from being dynamically typed. In my humble opinion, of course. luckily.. nobody suggested that and the only person who came close was tony himself :D perhaps the phrase optional type hinting of variables and class properties is more appropriate ;) ground hog day! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] optional type hinting enhancements
2009/1/19 Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com Török Alpár wrote: I see a problem with this. Scalars are automatically casted by PHP based on a set of rules. In case of a scalar type hint, would jo issue an error, or make the automatic type cast? both approaches have there advantages, but the automatic cast, would go better with the actual features of the language, but in this case, object could also cast an array to stdClass, and i am not sure that's how you imagined it. Besides this i am not against it along as it doens't create implementaion nor performance problems, and this problem is solved. I see what you mean with the casts; and a very good point on why scalars aren't already implemented.. On the one hand i see scope for a set of primative wrappers (class String, Integer, Boolean etc) which those who wished could use (with an auto cast). Whilst on the other hand it could be argued that the current is_xxx functionality could be copied so an integer in a string is still a string, likewise 1 is an integer not a boolean true etc etc. defintaly needs some thought and practical examples though.. rfc time one thinks. with the specific array example, this is already implemented so no problems there, what is not implemented though is the ability to function(object $obj) which seems strange. if a cast is made, and $obj is in fact an array, the outcome may not be what you wanted. This one is even trickier, since you may expect an error here, given that you have type hinting for specific object types. as for the error, same as it is currently E_RECOVERABLE_ERROR and def not automatic type casting; last thing you want when trying to be strict is anything like that :p agree, but that would make static types behave differently than they currently are. With some wrapper classes, you might end up with the same trouble, you can type hint Integer, and send a scalar string that contains an integer, then you are back to the good old casting rules. thanks for the input! i think that this functionality is worth talking about, but the point is to integrate this with the way PHP does things right now, you can't take the Java model as is, and apply it to PHP, there is a devil in the details. -- Torok, Alpar Istvan
[PHP] Re: Project management systems
Hey Nathan and all, (even Tony, kisses big T!) I decided, rather quickly, on this one. http://itprojectguide.org/ It's dotProject based with apparent upgrades to work with MySQL 5 and jQuery so that it has some nice AJAX functionality where dP would keep you waiting on whole page refreshes. The developer is very responsive to the minor issues I've had, so I'm going to probably keep it and import my custom modules from dP into it. Skip Nathan Rixham wrote: Skip Evans wrote: Hey all (except Tony), treat others how you want them to treat you *passes all his biscuits* - yet lol. I've been using dotProject for a few years now and have been quite happy with it, and have written my own invoicing module, and a few other mods for the way I track hours for subcontractors, etc. condolences But it has trouble with MySQL 5 and from the Googling I've done it doesn't seem likely it will be fixed soon. Besides, I've hacked my install up quite a bit and if I were to upgrade there'd trouble 'a foot, ya'll. maybe you'd be best fixing it yourself OR not upgrading to mysql 5? I'm considering switching to something else, and the start of a new year would be a good time since my subs have all been given their 10-99s so I can start fresh. really.. good luck and please let me know what you choose Suggestions for a PHP based PM system? I'd like to be able to make mods so PHP is the logical choice since it's the language I know best, and as Tony will tell you, it's perfect and doesn't need no feeble minded Java guys trying to improve it. . Basic requirements are time tracking for multiple coders, generating invoices per project based on start and end date (I bill the 15th and last day of each month). Gee, I guess that's the basics. Thoughts, opinions, corrections to grammar? not every ones cup of tea but rally agile development [http://www.rallydev.com/] if you don't do anything else with this link please watch this: http://www.rallydev.com/5601_Rally_15.html than consider what you want from a project management system. in all honesty though, no I can't - none seem to fit the bill completly and in every place I've ever worked, and personally, picking a good project management system has always been a major stumbling block / problem -- Skip Evans Big Sky Penguin, LLC 503 S Baldwin St, #1 Madison WI 53703 608.250.2720 http://bigskypenguin.com Those of you who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. -- Kurt Vonnegut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed
Nathan Rixham nrix...@gmail.com wrote in message news:4973b738.3010...@gmail.com... Tony Marston wrote: Stuart stut...@gmail.com wrote in message news:a5f019de0901181322i2a4cbfaam4d36eff843f42...@mail.gmail.com... 2009/1/18 Tony Marston t...@marston-home.demon.co.uk: In case you have forgotten what this thread is about, the OP gave a list of suggested improvements to PHP and asked for opinions. I merely gave my opinion that these improvements would be a waste of time as they would add nothing to the language (IMHO, of course). How many in this frum have expressed any support for any of these improvements? That's not the point. You attacked the suggester not the suggestions. That's all I'm trying to point out. There's a way to disagree in a reasonable manner. Anybody who suggests that PHP be changed from dynamic typing to static typing is feeble minded, one brick short of a full load, one sandwich short of a picnic, off his trolley, talking out of the wrong end of his alimentary canal, etc, etc. In my humble opinion, of course. luckily.. nobody suggested that You suggested that. You original post specifically said static typing and not type hinting. There is a BIG difference. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org and the only person who came close was tony himself :D perhaps the phrase optional type hinting of variables and class properties is more appropriate ;) not be feasible covers loss of performance, loss of BC and a whole bunch of other issues. If the cost of implementing your improvements is not worth the dubious benefit then why should they considered? Without adequate investigation or comment from people who actually know about this stuff it's impossible to say whether the costs are too great to make them acceptable against the benefits. OO had a massive negative effect on performance, but it still happened because the benefits greatly outweighed the costs. IMHO all ideas should be properly considered, regardless of my gut reaction to them. Statuic typing is unworthy of consideration in a language whch has made its bones from being dynamically typed. In my humble opinion, of course. luckily.. nobody suggested that and the only person who came close was tony himself :D perhaps the phrase optional type hinting of variables and class properties is more appropriate ;) ground hog day! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] GD and Converting a Transparent PNG-8 to a Transparent GIF
Graham Anderson schreef: Hi I am having problems getting GD to convert a transparent PNG-8 to a transparent GIF The below WILL produce a GIF...but leaves a white background # Convert the PreExisting PNG Image to a GIF $img = imagecreatefrompng($pngPath); # Set the GIF to be transparent: Does not seem to work $trans_color = imagecolortransparent($img ); $trans_index = imagecolorallocate($img, $trans_color['red'], $trans_color['green'], $trans_color['blue'] ); imagecolortransparent($img, $trans_index ); I can't see the above code doing much useful. the problem is somewhat more involved, png uses an alpha channel to determine how much transparency a given pixel has, with gif a pixel is either transparent or not, essentially a given colour in the gif's palette is marked as transparent and all pixels with that color are therefore shown as transparent. try the code here (no idea how well it works): http://demo.pixelsandpages.com/php-tests/images/test.html and/or dig into the user comments here: http://php.net/imagecolortransparent # Save the Image as a GIF in the directory imagegif($img, $gifAbsolutePath); Is there another way that works? Many thanks in advance G -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] 100% CPU Usage somewhere in script - how to find it?
On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Alex Davies a...@davz.net wrote: Hi Eric, Richard, Thank-you for your suggestions. I had already tried xdebug - the problem that I had is that because of the CPU overload it was showing pretty much everything as screwed! However by using absolute CPU time measures I managed to work out what method was involved, and on removing it the situation is completely resolved. I still wonder if there is a neater way to do this! Cheers, Alex On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Alex Davies a...@davz.net wrote: Hi, I use a (externally developed) library within my application which used to work fine. However, after a recent update (which unfortunately we can't roll back due to dependencies) I have crazy CPU loads - there are ~20 cores in total on the webservers and they have gone from an average utilization of ~5% to 99%. I am using lighttpd, and so I can see the php-cgi processes using 99% all my CPU! I have an extremely basic understanding of how to track this down, and using XDebug and KCacheGrind I think that I have a pretty good idea which area the problem lies in, but the problem is that because whatever it is that has broken is using up the whole CPU everything else slows down. Furthermore, it would appear that a large part of what gets scheduled is luck because sometimes things are instant and the same activity a short while later can take forever. However, based on absolute CPU time's from this XDebug/KCacheGrind analysis and a gut hunch based upon what has changed recently I think I know roughly what it is. I do have a diff of the recent code change, and I have looked at it to no avail. My questions are: - Is there a better way to see what is using up the CPU? There must be a single loop or something talking to an external service, that is using so much CPU user time. Is there a super-quick way to do to this? I really need to know what function (or even line) is using all that CPU time, because I can't spot it in the code. Perhaps this information can be obtained from XDebug but I can't find it! - If there is no such magic answer to this question, what is the correct way to find such a phantom problem? Are there any other applications that might be better? If anyone has any personal recommendations for Consultants able to look at and fix this sort of problem that would be much appreciated too; I am now well out of my depth and sinking fast! Many thanks for any help, Alex -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php XDebug can produce a result showing time spent in each function across an entire run. So if you were somehow able to turn on xdebug and reproduce this issue, it would indeed say what function/method this was happening in. http://xdebug.org/docs/profiler Sounds like that'd be pretty tricky, so good luck. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Alex Davies This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail permanently. You should probably use Xdebug to find out what needs that method... -- Kyle Terry | www.kyleterry.com
[PHP] xLog: Extended PHP Logging
I've just released the first public version of xLog, a PHP extension that allows extended logging of PHP errors, including Fatal errors. Output typically includes referral, GET values, URL, and a full backtrace. Additional information can be included via custom variables by the developer at runtime. xLog is derived from similar code used for the last couple years at Facebook for faster debugging by developers. It’s finally reached the point where I believe it’s ready to take the next step into the Open Source community so it can grow and benefit a larger group of people. I'd like to get get more feedback on use cases, and any problems that might be encountered on different or unusual code. You can get more information and download the source from: http://tekrat.com/php/xlog/. Please contact me with any problems or feedback, and I hope that you all find it useful! Example error log output is below: [15415:001:0001] [xlog1.0.0] Fatal PHP Fatal error: Call to undefined function foo() in /www/foo.php on line 3 (ip: 127.0.0.1) (at: localhost/foo.php) (referer: empty) (agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.0.5) Gecko/2008120121 Firefox/3.0.5) (post: empty) (cookies: empty) trace starts at [/www/foo.php:3] #0 in bar at [/www/foo.php:3] #1 bar(’somestring’, 10039877, object, TRUE), called at [/www/foo.php:5] Thanks, -shire -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Parsing HTML href-Attribute
On 16/1/09 23:41, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Again, I say that it won't work on URLs with spaces, like my web page.html. When I get a minute I'll fix it. I thought spaces in URLs weren't valid markup, but it seems to validate. Some small points of information: An HTML4 validator will only check that a HREF value is CDATA, as required by the DTD: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/links.html#adef-href http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/sgml/dtd.html#URI http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#type-cdata Plenty of things can be CDATA without being a valid URI: http://gbiv.com/protocols/uri/rfc/rfc3986.html Space characters (U+0020) that are not percent encoded are not valid in a URI: http://gbiv.com/protocols/uri/rfc/rfc3986.html#collected-abnf That's not to say that browsers haven't developed error handling for space characters (and other illegal characters) in HREF values. The HTML5 draft proposes an algorithm for parsing and resolving HREF values that includes such error handling: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parsing-urls http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#resolving-urls -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Curriculum Vitae opinions
Hi everyone, I am working on putting together my Curriculum Vitae (Cv/Resume for those not the US and not in the academic world) and wanted to get some opinions on how you would list a long term project? You know, something like where you may only work a little each month but are involved in it? Once I have a permanent home for my cv on line along with my site I'll spam the list :) Thanks for your opinions. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Parsing HTML href-Attribute
Depending on the goal, using the base tag in the head section might help: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/links.html#h-12.4 Thank you, Micah Gersten onShore Networks Internal Developer http://www.onshore.com Edmund Hertle wrote: Hey, I want to parse a href-attribute in a given String to check if there is a relative link and then adding an absolute path. Example: $string = 'a class=sample [...additional attributes...] href=/foo/bar.php '; I tried using regular expressions but my knowledge of RegEx is very limited. Things to consider: - $string could be quite long but my concern are only those href attributes (so working with explode() would be not very handy) - Should also work if href= is not using quotes or using single quotes - link could already be an absolute path, so just searching for href= and then inserting absolute path could mess up the link Any ideas? Or can someone create a RegEx to use? Thanks -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] GD and Converting a Transparent PNG-8 to a Transparent GIF
Thanks for the reply
I tried the example (below) from the link and still get a gif with
white background. Maybe, you can only do this with PNG-24s...not
PNG-8s?
Anyone else know if this can work?
# Convert the PreExisting PNG Image to a GIF
$img = imagecreatefrompng($pngPath);
$gifAbsolutePath = PROJECT_ROOT_DIR.'/'.$gifDir.'/'.$gif;
$transparentColor = imagecolorallocate($img, 0xfe, 0x3, 0xf4 );
//$ditherHistory = array(); //stores number of times it was transparent
$height = imagesy($img);
$width = imagesx($img);
for($x = 0; $x $width; $x++):
for($y = 0; $y $height; $y++):
$alpha = (imagecolorat($img,$x,$y) 0x7F00) 24;//127 is
completely TRANSPARENT, 0 opaque
//DITHER!
if($alpha3(
$alpha =127-3 ||
(rand(0,127))=(127-$alpha)
)){
imagesetpixel($img,$x,$y,$transparentColor);
}
endfor;
endfor;
imagecolortransparent($img, $transparentColor);
# Save the Image as a GIF in the directory $gifDir
imagegif($img, $gifAbsolutePath);
imagedestroy($img);
On Jan 18, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Jochem Maas wrote:
Graham Anderson schreef:
Hi
I am having problems getting GD to convert a transparent PNG-8 to a
transparent GIF
The below WILL produce a GIF...but leaves a white background
# Convert the PreExisting PNG Image to a GIF
$img = imagecreatefrompng($pngPath);
# Set the GIF to be transparent: Does not seem to work
$trans_color = imagecolortransparent($img );
$trans_index = imagecolorallocate($img, $trans_color['red'],
$trans_color['green'], $trans_color['blue'] );
imagecolortransparent($img, $trans_index );
I can't see the above code doing much useful. the problem is somewhat
more involved, png uses an alpha channel to determine how much
transparency
a given pixel has, with gif a pixel is either transparent or not,
essentially
a given colour in the gif's palette is marked as transparent and all
pixels with that color are therefore shown as transparent.
try the code here (no idea how well it works):
http://demo.pixelsandpages.com/php-tests/images/test.html
and/or dig into the user comments here:
http://php.net/imagecolortransparent
# Save the Image as a GIF in the directory
imagegif($img, $gifAbsolutePath);
Is there another way that works?
Many thanks in advance
G
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[PHP] ob_start(ob_gzhandler) producing garbage before document header
Hi, using ob_gzhandler produces a 5-8 characters, �“×2���, before the document header. Using ob_start() does not produce the text garbage. Is there a way to get ob_start(ob_gzhandler) to behave? Many thanks in advance Abridged Code: ob_start(ob_gzhandler); //produces initial text garbage # ob_start() //Produces No initial text garbage # Cache the output $data = ob_get_contents(); //ob_end_clean(); Can't seem to make this work with ob_gzhandler # Remove any whitespace that screws up the headers (cannot modify headers error) print trim($data); # Flush in all ways known to man flush(); ob_flush(); ob_end_flush(); -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] GD and Converting a Transparent PNG-8 to a Transparent GIF
I got it to work :) Like you had recommended, I found a script in http://php.net/imagecolortransparent from: fmkaiba at optonline dot net 07-Feb-2008 08:05. The function is called, createthumb Cheers Graham On Jan 18, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Jochem Maas wrote: Graham Anderson schreef: Hi I am having problems getting GD to convert a transparent PNG-8 to a transparent GIF The below WILL produce a GIF...but leaves a white background # Convert the PreExisting PNG Image to a GIF $img = imagecreatefrompng($pngPath); # Set the GIF to be transparent: Does not seem to work $trans_color = imagecolortransparent($img ); $trans_index = imagecolorallocate($img, $trans_color['red'], $trans_color['green'], $trans_color['blue'] ); imagecolortransparent($img, $trans_index ); I can't see the above code doing much useful. the problem is somewhat more involved, png uses an alpha channel to determine how much transparency a given pixel has, with gif a pixel is either transparent or not, essentially a given colour in the gif's palette is marked as transparent and all pixels with that color are therefore shown as transparent. try the code here (no idea how well it works): http://demo.pixelsandpages.com/php-tests/images/test.html and/or dig into the user comments here: http://php.net/imagecolortransparent # Save the Image as a GIF in the directory imagegif($img, $gifAbsolutePath); Is there another way that works? Many thanks in advance G -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] PHP Imagefill
Is there a way to specify an already existing file to use as the background, instead of a specific color, such as what http://ca.php.net/manual/en/function.imagefill.php illustrates? Ron
[PHP] old HTTP variables
Maybe I'm asking for trouble here, but, is there any way to make PHP 5.2.8 understand the old $HTTP variables? Like: $HTTP_SESSION_VARS $HTTP_GET_VARS $HTTP_POST_VARS $HTTP_SESSION_VARS $HTTP_COOKIE_VARS etc., etc. I have an old application for which development has stopped back in 2004 ... Should I give up now and install an earlier version of PHP (and somehow have it behave nice next to PHP5? -- A -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] old HTTP variables
$HTTP_GET_VARS = $_GET; etc. :) On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Ashley M. Kirchner ash...@pcraft.com wrote: Maybe I'm asking for trouble here, but, is there any way to make PHP 5.2.8 understand the old $HTTP variables? Like: $HTTP_SESSION_VARS $HTTP_GET_VARS $HTTP_POST_VARS $HTTP_SESSION_VARS $HTTP_COOKIE_VARS etc., etc. I have an old application for which development has stopped back in 2004 ... Should I give up now and install an earlier version of PHP (and somehow have it behave nice next to PHP5? -- A -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] old HTTP variables
mike wrote: $HTTP_GET_VARS = $_GET; etc. :) I know what they are. I'm not about to change a couple of thousand lines of someone else's code unless there's no other way. :) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] old HTTP variables
On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Ashley M. Kirchner ash...@pcraft.com wrote: mike wrote: $HTTP_GET_VARS = $_GET; etc. :) I know what they are. I'm not about to change a couple of thousand lines of someone else's code unless there's no other way. :) no i mean define that at the top before the code runs. maybe use the ini setting for prepending script... (i do the following to standardize our codebase) unset($_REQUEST); unset($HTTP_GET_VARS); unset($HTTP_POST_VARS); unset($HTTP_COOKIE_VARS); unset($HTTP_SERVER_VARS); unset($HTTP_ENV_VARS); unset($HTTP_POST_FILES); unset($HTTP_SESSION_VARS); -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] phpMailer Problem!
I tested with port 25, but it didn't work. I confuse, I don't know what problem is it works well with gmail... thanks for reply :)
Re: [PHP] phpMailer Problem!
shahrzad khorrami wrote: I tested with port 25, but it didn't work. I confuse, I don't know what problem is it works well with gmail... http://phpmailer.codeworxtech.com/index.php?pg=sfp=ml The phpmailer users/developers will be able to help you debug this better. -- Postgresql php tutorials http://www.designmagick.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] phpMailer Problem!
thanks chris :)
Re: [PHP] old HTTP variables
On Sunday 18 January 2009 11:12:28 pm Ashley M. Kirchner wrote: Maybe I'm asking for trouble here, but, is there any way to make PHP 5.2.8 understand the old $HTTP variables? Like: $HTTP_SESSION_VARS $HTTP_GET_VARS $HTTP_POST_VARS $HTTP_SESSION_VARS $HTTP_COOKIE_VARS etc., etc. I have an old application for which development has stopped back in 2004 ... Should I give up now and install an earlier version of PHP (and somehow have it behave nice next to PHP5? -- A http://us3.php.net/manual/en/ini.core.php#ini.register-long-arrays Although you should probably take the time to upgrade the app anyway, as those variables are deprecated and won't be around forever. -- Larry Garfield la...@garfieldtech.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] old HTTP variables
Larry Garfield wrote: http://us3.php.net/manual/en/ini.core.php#ini.register-long-arrays Bingo. That's what I needed. Although you should probably take the time to upgrade the app anyway, as those variables are deprecated and won't be around forever. Yeah, that would be nice, except it's not something I wrote, nor am I inclined to go rewrite the app at this point in time. Maybe sometime later, but right now I just needed to get the thing up and running. Thanks for the pointer! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
