subject:"\[python\-committers\] Re\: core\-dev chat"

Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> Hello Core Dev,
> I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in
> some quick effervescent conversations.
...
> Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and
> options are
...

> If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and
> discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your
> thoughts as well.

This was my original email. Based on the discussion here it looks like
an informal chat medium will be desirable to many. Some don't see a
need. 

To bring a closure to this topic, I plan to create a poll in
discuss.python.org to bring get votes on the decision.

So, the first decision will be.

Q: Do we need a core-dev only chat? An informal, private mechanism to
hang around and chat.

A) No. Let's not do anything new. The status quo we have seems fine.
B) Yes, let's experiment with Discord / Slack / Teams / Gitter / IRC.

If B, is your answer choice, and if we decide to experiment with a new
solution, what could it be? (1-Many choices)

A) Let's try with Discord for core-dev
B) Let's try with Gitter for core-dev
C) Let's try with private IRC group other than #python-dev
D) Let's try with Slack for core-dev
E) Let's try with Teams for core-dev
F) I don't have a strong preference. I will use whatever core-dev community
uses as long as I can use it on my platform or web.

My aim is not disrupt existing systems that are used like #python-dev in
IRC. So, it will continue to be chat mechanism open to public.

There will privacy focus with this solution, details on where to host to
be determined.

I hope, I have represented the initial choices well. If not, please let
me know. 

If we end up with coming to a consensus, I will make a formal proposal
to the steering council to make a pronuncement on this topic. 

Thank you,
Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-18 Thread Paul Moore

On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 15:14, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>
>
> Le 18/05/2021 à 15:36, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
> > Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> >>> I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are
> >> not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?
> >
> > I don't understand this question, and lost the context too if it was 
> > addressed to me.
> >
> > The fact is, Zulip simply isn't used by python-dev.
> > It didn't fly, and could be due to multiple reasons, not just social ones.
>
> Sure.  So why don't you just *ask* people why they don't use Zulip,
> instead of trying to invent explanations?
>
> Personnally, I can already answer: I don't use the python-dev Zulip
> because I'm not looking for a place where to hang out persistently for
> python-dev topics.  Perhaps I might take a look from to time, but that's
> all.

And for me, I dropped Zulip because there was never anything of
interest to me happening on there.

Paul
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-18 Thread Antoine Pitrou



Le 18/05/2021 à 15:36, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :

Antoine Pitrou wrote:

I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are

not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?


I don't understand this question, and lost the context too if it was addressed 
to me.

The fact is, Zulip simply isn't used by python-dev.
It didn't fly, and could be due to multiple reasons, not just social ones.


Sure.  So why don't you just *ask* people why they don't use Zulip, 
instead of trying to invent explanations?


Personnally, I can already answer: I don't use the python-dev Zulip 
because I'm not looking for a place where to hang out persistently for 
python-dev topics.  Perhaps I might take a look from to time, but that's 
all.


Regards

Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 09:16:33AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
> As a data point for where newer language communities have ended up, Rust is on
> Discord and Zulip.

I hopped in to study their usage for last 3 days. I wanted to find out
how open source communities are actively using Zulip.

* Zulip instance of Rust is more active that Zulip instance of Python. 

* Discord usage of Rust Team seem far more (10x) than that of Zulip.
  Not just (beginnner channels), but in working groups, and dev-tools
  etc.

-- 
Senthil

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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 06:01:36PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:

> I see a general interest in *having* some sort of community chat, but
> no real plan on how to get a critical mass of people on a chat system.

So, I see you recognize the general interest too. Next step will
figuring out what to do, and how to go about it.

> Specifically, we tried Zulip and it failed, in the sense that
> basically no-one uses it.
> 
> So let's start by working out *why* it failed. 

Yes. That will be separate topic. 

https://python.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/116410-zulip/topic/Why.20didn't.20Zulip.20Catch.20on.20with.20python-dev/near/239136087

https://discuss.python.org/t/should-we-continue-using-zulip/2816

> I don't see any point
> in having a vote, which comes up with the conclusion that (say) people
> like Discord, if we then set that up and there's no-one on there. If
> we were to ask the question, why did people stop logging into Zulip as
> part of their daily sign-in routine (or why did they never even start
> doing that), what would the answers be? Mine would be simply "because
> no-one was there". More specifically, even if people were there, there
> were no conversations going on.

My response to this is.

1. It is assuming Zulip failed due to one specific reason only.
2. That sepecific reason will prevent the next solution from being
successful.

I disagree with both. There could be multiple reasons, including design
of the tool, preference of the community and then social needs.

We should experiment, and if we recognize a failure, acknowledge it, and
close it.

Paul, my understanding of your vote was:

* I will use the system that other core-devs use.

That's very reasonable stance, and if anything comes out as majority
preference, then you are adding support to it.

-- 
Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

Eric V. Smith wrote:

> If the intent of this new core-dev chat is just a social "how are you 
> doing" sort of thing, then I think Zulip (or most anything else) would 
> work fine.

What would be _social_ for python-dev? :) I assume it will mostly be around 
technical topics.
The social nature observed in #python (or #python-dev when actively used) was 
the idea.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are 
> not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?

I don't understand this question, and lost the context too if it was addressed 
to me.

The fact is, Zulip simply isn't used by python-dev. 
It didn't fly, and could be due to multiple reasons, not just social ones. 
Let's not assume that social or technical factors _alone_ lead a community to 
adopt something.

I was trying to gauge, if we do need a chat system, and the responses are 
diverse, but it seems to me that it will be welcome addition for _many_, who 
might find a solution, easy / convenient to hop-in and chat.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-18 Thread Steve Dower

On 18May2021 0306, Gregory P. Smith wrote:
+1 agreed. Discord wins out in terms of features and **being where
people are already at** in terms of modern IRC with replacement with
bonus audio and video features for use when desired. I rarely bother to
hang out on freenode IRC anymore out of inertia and being yet another
window to poll. discord having a mobile app gives a much better signal
and a chance that I'll stop by. It is also already where things like
circuitpython happen.

Agreed. I'd be far more likely to visit Discord than anywhere else these
days. I've already visited the PyPA one more often than I've checked my
GitHub notifications this week :)

Personally I'm fine with asking Python Discord if they'd let us have our
own space as we did for the sprints. Secret channels are free, and I'm
sure they'd love to have more core devs in there, even if we've mostly
muted all the other channels.

None of that changes the fact that many of us won't remain online and
responsive in yet another channel at most times. We're not "on call" for
core dev. But we're probably not online and responsive at low latency in
the existing channels either so this shouldn't come as a shock.

Also this. Emphasising that it's a social channel rather than a work
channel, and there's no obligation at all to have notifications or email
updates or reminders or anything from it, would I think go a long way to
easing concerns of being on call.

Cheers,
Steve
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-17 Thread Gregory P. Smith

On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 6:44 PM Kyle Stanley  wrote:

>
> FWIW, I would love to add a core dev Discord server to my long-ish list of
>> Discord servers. It's a chat platform I find convenient (much more so than
>> Zulip and Slack, and slightly more so than IRC), very organised, with good
>> moderation tools (better than Slack and IRC), and widely adopted. If people
>> prefer other platforms I will endeavour to participate, but it won't be as
>> convenient to me as Discord.
>>
>
> Huge +1. I'd love to have a place to hang out and voice chat (or text)
> with others on the core team in real time. I think it would double as a
> great social outlet, and we could keep it very simple to the point where
> its basically just IRC with some extra features. Using existing servers
> like PySlackers or Python Discord aren't ideal options (as much as I love
> Python Discord), just because there's too much noise to filter out if one
> is only interested in the core dev aspect. Whatever we do, I think it needs
> to be just for the core development community with as little noise as
> possible.
>

+1 agreed. Discord wins out in terms of features and **being where people
are already at** in terms of modern IRC with replacement with bonus audio
and video features for use when desired. I rarely bother to hang out on
freenode IRC anymore out of inertia and being yet another window to poll.
discord having a mobile app gives a much better signal and a chance that
I'll stop by.  It is also already where things like circuitpython happen.

None of that changes the fact that many of us won't remain online and
responsive in yet another channel at most times. We're not "on call" for
core dev. But we're probably not online and responsive at low latency in
the existing channels either so this shouldn't come as a shock.

-gps
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-17 Thread Kyle Stanley

> FWIW, I would love to add a core dev Discord server to my long-ish list of
> Discord servers. It's a chat platform I find convenient (much more so than
> Zulip and Slack, and slightly more so than IRC), very organised, with good
> moderation tools (better than Slack and IRC), and widely adopted. If people
> prefer other platforms I will endeavour to participate, but it won't be as
> convenient to me as Discord.
>

Huge +1. I'd love to have a place to hang out and voice chat (or text) with
others on the core team in real time. I think it would double as a great
social outlet, and we could keep it very simple to the point where its
basically just IRC with some extra features. Using existing servers like
PySlackers or Python Discord aren't ideal options (as much as I love Python
Discord), just because there's too much noise to filter out if one is only
interested in the core dev aspect. Whatever we do, I think it needs to be
just for the core development community with as little noise as possible.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-17 Thread Paul Moore

On Mon, 17 May 2021 at 11:32, Thomas Wouters  wrote:

> There's also the social dimension that is simply not present in email -- for 
> good reason. There are many messages I have not sent simply because it's 
> email, so it's more effort and carries much more weight.

Agreed. An example of something I'd consider "semi-social" would be
"hey - does anyone know a good library for doing XXX" or "SQLAlchemy
baffles me, does anyone use it or know a good tutorial?" These aren't
core dev questions - they don't relate to anything I'm doing on
CPython, but they are the sort of questions I'd ask a bunch of friends
who I know use Python and are experienced/good coders. They also tend
to be relatively immediate - it's no big deal if no-one can help, but
conversely if I get an answer 3 days from now I'll probably already
have worked around the issue - and tend to be conversation triggers
(chat about how hard it is to discover new interesting libraries, or
about how writing tutorials is an art form that a lot of projects
could do with help on).

> Discourse is better at this with 'likes' as well as direct linking and 
> cross-referencing. It's still not the same as Discord or similar chat 
> programs.

I think in general modern apps do better on the "social" aspect. Email
is still my preferred option for extended discussions, longer or more
complex topics, etc, but not so much for things that are more "in the
moment".

Paul
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-17 Thread Thomas Wouters

On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 12:00 PM Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Did you notice that you are already chatting by email? Chatting about
> other chat platforms :-) Why not just accepting that emails won? :-)
>

I have several communities that *only* communicate through Discord, never
email. On the python-dev mailing list, sure, email won. In other places, it
most assuredly didn't. There's also the social dimension that is simply not
present in email -- for good reason. There are many messages I have not
sent simply because it's email, so it's more effort and carries much more
weight. Discourse is better at this with 'likes' as well as direct linking
and cross-referencing. It's still not the same as Discord or similar chat
programs.

FWIW, I would love to add a core dev Discord server to my long-ish list of
Discord servers. It's a chat platform I find convenient (much more so than
Zulip and Slack, and slightly more so than IRC), very organised, with good
moderation tools (better than Slack and IRC), and widely adopted. If people
prefer other platforms I will endeavour to participate, but it won't be as
convenient to me as Discord.

>
> When discuss.python.org was launched, a few discussions moved there,
> and slowly, moved back to python-dev list.
>
> Emails will never die! :-D
>
> Victor
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-- 
Thomas Wouters 

Hi! I'm an email virus! Think twice before sending your email to help me
spread!
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-17 Thread Matthias Klose

On 5/14/21 12:28 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm always connected to IRC #python-dev (Freenode) for 10 years, a few
> other core devs use it time to time. Come to say hello ;-)
> 
> The bugs.python.org and buildbot notifications are useful to me and I
> don't feel annoyed by them. But GitHub review are hard to use: only
> the user name and the PR number are given: PR title and comment
> content are not provided, you have to click on each link to know more.
> Moreover, when a user leaves 10 comments, there are 10 IRC
> notifications!

Using #python-dev here as well, but with 99% of the messages being bot messages
it makes it hard to see the real in-person discussions.  Not saying that it's
not useful, but a separate IRC channel for these might be more welcoming for
#python-dev, independent of this discussions about other platforms.

Matthias
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-17 Thread Victor Stinner

Did you notice that you are already chatting by email? Chatting about
other chat platforms :-) Why not just accepting that emails won? :-)

When discuss.python.org was launched, a few discussions moved there,
and slowly, moved back to python-dev list.

Emails will never die! :-D

Victor
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Terry Reedy


On 5/15/2021 1:01 PM, Paul Moore wrote:


Specifically, we tried Zulip and it failed, in the sense that
basically no-one uses it.

So let's start by working out *why* it failed.


I never tried it because it was introduced about the same time as 
'discuss', and it was enough for me to learn *that*, and then 'discord' 
for the sprint.  I never understood what the difference was supposed to 
be.  Maybe because I never used IRC.


I just logged in and it seems that most of the discussions were meta, 
about tulip itself.  It is not at all limited to coredevs.  Moreover, 
most of the discussion presented should have somehow been labelled 
'closed' (BPO), 'answered' (SO), or otherwise 'ignore' or 'archived' 
unless specifically searched for.  BPO's front page only lists the most 
recently active open issues.


tjr
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

Le 15/05/2021 à 19:01, Paul Moore a écrit :

So let's start by working out *why* it failed. I don't see any point
in having a vote, which comes up with the conclusion that (say) people
like Discord, if we then set that up and there's no-one on there. If
we were to ask the question, why did people stop logging into Zulip as
part of their daily sign-in routine (or why did they never even start
doing that), what would the answers be? Mine would be simply "because
no-one was there". More specifically, even if people were there, there
were no conversations going on.

That certainly sounds like the most reasonable explanation.

Explicitly making it more of a social community (while still allowing
that we're all technical so casual technical questions still count as
social ;-)) might make a difference. As might a deliberate effort to
keep people engaged. But just choosing a new tool and hoping people
like it enough for the community to "just happen" seems destined to
fail.

It was proposed that people list in a public place the timespans where
they can make themselves available on a chat system. That would
certainly help people gather and discuss together synchronously, if they
are willing to.

Regards

Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Paul Moore

On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 16:58, Senthil Kumaran  wrote:

> > I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument.
>
> Really? I don't see that way. So far, I see that few others find
> settling upon chat solution will be useful for core-dev too.

I see a general interest in *having* some sort of community chat, but
no real plan on how to get a critical mass of people on a chat system.
Specifically, we tried Zulip and it failed, in the sense that
basically no-one uses it.

So let's start by working out *why* it failed. I don't see any point
in having a vote, which comes up with the conclusion that (say) people
like Discord, if we then set that up and there's no-one on there. If
we were to ask the question, why did people stop logging into Zulip as
part of their daily sign-in routine (or why did they never even start
doing that), what would the answers be? Mine would be simply "because
no-one was there". More specifically, even if people were there, there
were no conversations going on.

Yes, it's a circular argument, unless people use a system no-one will
use it. I get that. But how do we break that cycle?

Explicitly making it more of a social community (while still allowing
that we're all technical so casual technical questions still count as
social ;-)) might make a difference. As might a deliberate effort to
keep people engaged. But just choosing a new tool and hoping people
like it enough for the community to "just happen" seems destined to
fail.

Paul
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Brett Cannon

As a data point for where newer language communities have ended up, Rust is
on Discord and Zulip.

On Fri., May 14, 2021, 19:14 Dong-hee Na,  wrote:

> Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC
> culture.
> And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s.
> That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.
>
> So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
> Here the list below is my consideration.
>
> a) Are people familiar?
> If the tools are widely used by the tech company, I'd like to give the
> score.
> Because if the people are not familiar, it loses accessibility and maybe
> nobody use after some period.
>
> b) Does it has a thread feature?
> I believe that most of the core devs need this feature since I observe
> that we discuss some topics intensively for long periods of time.
>
> c) Does it has a secret channel?
>
> d) Can we get a sponsor from the provider or PSF for using the tools.
> Because most of the tools have a subscription system and without that, we
> can not use the advanced features.
> For example, with free tier Slack, we lose old historical data.
>
> So here is final my preferred list of that consideration
> >>>  ["Slack", "Discord", "Teams"]
>
> But my personal recent experience with the Discord public server was not
> that good.
> Because I got a lot of personal talks invitation that is actually spam
> or scam.
> So I exit the channel after the sprint is ended even though I use Discord
> personally.
> If we choose Discord, I'd like to suggest creating a new server for PSF,
> not the rendezvous with the existed server.
> This is the same opinion with Slack if we have the possibility to meet
> with the same issue.
>
> Regards,
> Dong-hee
>
>
> 2021년 5월 14일 (금) 오전 8:39, Senthil Kumaran 님이 작성:
>
>> Hello Core Dev,
>>
>> I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in
>> some quick effervescent conversations.
>>
>> It is like a team chat, that is popular with remote work these days.
>> We even seem to have used Zoom Chat yesterday!
>>
>> * I know #python-dev in IRC exists, but it is mostly a channel for
>> bots to send notifications, and there are plenty.  I am not certain if
>> any core dev is active there. There was a time when this was active.
>> * We tried python discord last year, and were bit overwhelmed with the
>> number of channels and inability to customize
>> * There seems to be Slack called pyslackers too[1]. I am yet to try it.
>>
>> To have a proper team-chat, we need a service (a) as well as (b) team
>> using that.
>>
>> Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and
>> options are
>>
>> a) Resurrect #python-dev - changing notifications to different group.
>> b) Request for core-dev in pyslackers Slack
>> c) Request for core-dev in Discord.
>>
>> Any other ideas are welcome.
>>
>> If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and
>> discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your
>> thoughts as well.
>>
>> If we feel a chat service will be a good idea for core-dev to
>> hangaround, then we can go to stage 2 of choosing the service by votes
>> in discourse (discuss.python.org).
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Eric V. Smith


On 5/15/2021 11:57 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote:

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a
very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations,
is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ».

- Zulip didn't take-off as well as we intended for python (core-dev)
   group. If it had, this discussion wouldn't have been necessary.


I think Zulip didn't catch on because most core devs prefer 
communicating on mailing lists for technical issues.


If the intent of this new core-dev chat is just a social "how are you 
doing" sort of thing, then I think Zulip (or most anything else) would 
work fine.


Eric

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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat



Le 15/05/2021 à 17:57, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a
very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations,
is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ».


- Zulip didn't take-off as well as we intended for python (core-dev)
   group. If it had, this discussion wouldn't have been necessary.


I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are 
not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?


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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Senthil Kumaran

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 05:17:03PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> 
> Le 15/05/2021 à 17:11, Dong-hee Na a écrit :
> > 
> > So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective.
> > But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication
> > tools, I think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people
> > not use after some period.
> 
> What "danger factor" are you talking about?
> 

My interpretation of that message, "falling out of use". The tool is
less effective due to lack of usage after the initial trial period.

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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Senthil Kumaran

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a
> very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations,
> is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ».

- Zulip didn't take-off as well as we intended for python (core-dev)
  group. If it had, this discussion wouldn't have been necessary.

- We can still consider Zulip, if majority of us feel to participate in
  in again.  We will see that in the poll.

> I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument.

Really? I don't see that way. So far, I see that few others find
settling upon chat solution will be useful for core-dev too.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat



Le 15/05/2021 à 17:11, Dong-hee Na a écrit :


So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective.
But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication 
tools, I think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people 
not use after some period.


What "danger factor" are you talking about?

Regards

Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Brandt Bucher

Paul Moore wrote:
> In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd prefer it 
> to be a little more "social". We have plenty of "work-related" communication 
> channels, but IMO we don't really have anywhere that's the online equivalent 
> of the workplace "hanging out around the coffee machine" interactions (which 
> are often very productive work-related conversations, but can also be purely 
> social).

+1 for a private social chat. Or a book club, or something. :)

We already have enough forums for technical discussions... I count at least 
six(!) that I personally used for core dev work. Another would likely do more 
harm than good.

Brandt
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Dong-hee Na

> If you're not familiar with
> Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well.
> Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way.
> Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues /

> acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects and have
> nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. For example, I have
> to use Slack at work, yet I find Zulip far more convenient.

I think that we are on the same side about the considerations points but my
observation bias is weighted on Slack, Discord, Teams.
So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective.
But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication tools, I
think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people not use after
some period.
And I think that it will show a higher survival probability when people
feel comfortable than people feel not convenient.
(Please note that convenience or comfort does not mean the systems
perfectness)

> In other words, those are network effects and have
> nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system.

The reason why I mentioned the 'UI friendless' is that we are discussing
the communication tools for programming projects.
IMHO, the network effect of business communication tools world is that how
many people use the tool for their work.
if we can not choose the most people convenient tool of the programming
world, but we can choose the second one as the alternative one.
For example, as you said you use Slack for your work purpose if we choose
Slack (if we decide to adopt new tools) at least you and I don't have to
learn how to use Zulip fluently.
And I think that it can also apply to other core devs and contributors who
feel comfortable with Slack or Slack-like UI/UX.

Regards,
Dong-hee


2021년 5월 15일 (토) 오후 11:45, Antoine Pitrou 님이 작성:

>
> Le 15/05/2021 à 16:37, Dong-hee Na a écrit :
> >  > You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip
> >
> > I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project
> > based on Python.
> > But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only
> > technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX.
> > I don't want to evaluate the UI/UX accessibility of Zulip is good or bad
> > but it's the issue of how people feel familiar.
>
> I don't think that's an important concern. We're talking about chat
> systems, which are all really approchable. If you're not familiar with
> Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well.
> Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way.
>
> On the scale of UI friendliness, all those systems are on the "easy"
> side (compare with the git CLI, which is on the "difficult" side).
>
>  > This phenomenon also occurs in other common (non-business) messengers.
>  > (WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc..)
>  > You can observe that there is no single monopoly messenger which concurs
>  > worldwide.
>
> Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues /
> acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects and have
> nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. For example, I have
> to use Slack at work, yet I find Zulip far more convenient.
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat



Le 15/05/2021 à 16:37, Dong-hee Na a écrit :

 > You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip

I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project 
based on Python.
But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only 
technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX.
I don't want to evaluate the UI/UX accessibility of Zulip is good or bad 
but it's the issue of how people feel familiar.


I don't think that's an important concern. We're talking about chat 
systems, which are all really approchable. If you're not familiar with 
Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well. 
Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way.


On the scale of UI friendliness, all those systems are on the "easy" 
side (compare with the git CLI, which is on the "difficult" side).


> This phenomenon also occurs in other common (non-business) messengers.
> (WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc..)
> You can observe that there is no single monopoly messenger which concurs
> worldwide.

Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues / 
acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects and have 
nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. For example, I have 
to use Slack at work, yet I find Zulip far more convenient.


Regards

Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Dong-hee Na

> You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip

I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project
based on Python.
But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only
technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX.
I don't want to evaluate the UI/UX accessibility of Zulip is good or bad
but it's the issue of how people feel familiar.
This phenomenon also occurs in other common (non-business) messengers.
(WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc..)
You can observe that there is no single monopoly messenger which concurs
worldwide.

The list of tools that I suggested is based on my personal observation
which is normally used in tech companies.
If people feel familiar and such things can address people's productivity I
think that that's a good reason to choose.

Regards,
Dong-hee

2021년 5월 15일 (토) 오후 11:16, Antoine Pitrou 님이 작성:

>
> Le 15/05/2021 à 13:23, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
> > On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote:
> >> So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
> >
> > I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good
> > tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the driver of
> > this conversation.
>
> You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a
> very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many
> integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our
> evolving needs ».  In other words, I see lots of vague complaining and
> no concrete argument.
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat



Le 15/05/2021 à 13:23, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote:

So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.


I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good
tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the driver of
this conversation.


You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a 
very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many 
integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our 
evolving needs ».  In other words, I see lots of vague complaining and 
no concrete argument.


Regards

Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Dong-hee Na

> * Does it have a good web-client experience

MS teams look like provide the web client.

> In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd
> prefer it to be a little more "social".

I agree that we need to be more social. I share my personal news with
Victor and it would be great if I can share my personal news
with other core devs :)
I think that we can catch both of them if we choose any tools I suggested.
For example, we can create a channel for that purpose, #freetalk,
#personal_news, etc..

2021년 5월 15일 (토) 오후 5:20, Paul Moore 님이 작성:

> On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 03:14, Dong-hee Na  wrote:
> >
> > Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC
> culture.
> > And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s.
> > That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.
> >
> > So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
> > Here the list below is my consideration.
> [...]
>
> Those are all good points. I'll add one more:
>
> * Does it have a good web-client experience? Not everyone wants to run
> an additional client, so being able to get the full client experience
> in a browser tab is important.
>
> In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd
> prefer it to be a little more "social". We have plenty of
> "work-related" communication channels, but IMO we don't really have
> anywhere that's the online equivalent of the workplace "hanging out
> around the coffee machine" interactions (which are often very
> productive work-related conversations, but can also be purely social).
>
> Paul
>
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Senthil Kumaran

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote:
> So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.

I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good
tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the driver of
this conversation.

Thanks!
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-15 Thread Paul Moore

On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 03:14, Dong-hee Na  wrote:
>
> Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC culture.
> And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s.
> That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.
>
> So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
> Here the list below is my consideration.
[...]

Those are all good points. I'll add one more:

* Does it have a good web-client experience? Not everyone wants to run
an additional client, so being able to get the full client experience
in a browser tab is important.

In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd
prefer it to be a little more "social". We have plenty of
"work-related" communication channels, but IMO we don't really have
anywhere that's the online equivalent of the workplace "hanging out
around the coffee machine" interactions (which are often very
productive work-related conversations, but can also be purely social).

Paul
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Ethan Furman

On 5/14/21 3:28 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:

> I'm always connected to IRC #python-dev (Freenode) for 10 years, a few
> other core devs use it time to time. Come to say hello ;-)

I've tried the IRC channel -- way too much noise.  Talking to bots is not my 
idea of a python dev chat.

My impression from the few times I've been there is that Victor uses it, and a bunch of bots use it (or maybe it's just 
one very vocal bot).

--
~Ethan~
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Dong-hee Na

Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC
culture.
And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s.
That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.

So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
Here the list below is my consideration.

a) Are people familiar?
If the tools are widely used by the tech company, I'd like to give the
score.
Because if the people are not familiar, it loses accessibility and maybe
nobody use after some period.

b) Does it has a thread feature?
I believe that most of the core devs need this feature since I observe that
we discuss some topics intensively for long periods of time.

c) Does it has a secret channel?

d) Can we get a sponsor from the provider or PSF for using the tools.
Because most of the tools have a subscription system and without that, we
can not use the advanced features.
For example, with free tier Slack, we lose old historical data.

So here is final my preferred list of that consideration
>>>  ["Slack", "Discord", "Teams"]

But my personal recent experience with the Discord public server was not
that good.
Because I got a lot of personal talks invitation that is actually spam
or scam.
So I exit the channel after the sprint is ended even though I use Discord
personally.
If we choose Discord, I'd like to suggest creating a new server for PSF,
not the rendezvous with the existed server.
This is the same opinion with Slack if we have the possibility to meet with
the same issue.

Regards,
Dong-hee


2021년 5월 14일 (금) 오전 8:39, Senthil Kumaran 님이 작성:

> Hello Core Dev,
>
> I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in
> some quick effervescent conversations.
>
> It is like a team chat, that is popular with remote work these days.
> We even seem to have used Zoom Chat yesterday!
>
> * I know #python-dev in IRC exists, but it is mostly a channel for
> bots to send notifications, and there are plenty.  I am not certain if
> any core dev is active there. There was a time when this was active.
> * We tried python discord last year, and were bit overwhelmed with the
> number of channels and inability to customize
> * There seems to be Slack called pyslackers too[1]. I am yet to try it.
>
> To have a proper team-chat, we need a service (a) as well as (b) team
> using that.
>
> Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and
> options are
>
> a) Resurrect #python-dev - changing notifications to different group.
> b) Request for core-dev in pyslackers Slack
> c) Request for core-dev in Discord.
>
> Any other ideas are welcome.
>
> If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and
> discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your
> thoughts as well.
>
> If we feel a chat service will be a good idea for core-dev to
> hangaround, then we can go to stage 2 of choosing the service by votes
> in discourse (discuss.python.org).
>
>
> Thank you,
> Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Nick Coghlan

On Sat, 15 May 2021, 6:35 am Paul Moore,  wrote:

> On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 21:18, Senthil Kumaran  wrote:
>
> > > In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people
> > > problem.
> >
> > Both. I didn't suggest this is technology problem. We, have to
> > choose one as per majority convenience.
>
> Fair enough. That suggests that abstaining is the right answer for
> people without a preference, I guess.
>
> > > Do enough of the core devs actually *want* to hang out in a
> > > chat forum to achieve critical mass and make it worthwhile?
> >
> > Yes, that's why the choice exist that "We don't want any chat platform".
>
> OK, as long as you don't also assume that abstention means "not
> interested in chat".
>

I think the wording of the poll here will matter quite a bit, as what
really makes a chat channel work is having a regular core of people that
are on at the same time and actually use it to talk to each other.

When that core is there, it's possible for newcomers to join, either by
lurking and observing the interactions for a while, or by introducing
themselves or asking a question and getting a reply. Without that core,
newcomers will join, not see any traffic, not get any replies their
messages, assume the channel is dead, and move on.

Time zones make it harder to build that core community, but even a channel
that has a definite active time zone (e.g. US or European business hours)
can be viable - you just need to indicate to newcomers the times when the
channel is most active.

For myself, the only period where I was a regular in Python related IRC
channels (including python-dev) was when I was working for Red Hat - I
considered joining them part of my regular login process for a work day.

When I left RH, and with the notable exception of Steering Council
meetings, I mostly went back to treating core development as an async-only
activity (sometimes very async these days, as I'll now sometimes go for
several weeks at a time without checking for any Python related messages if
I'm not already involved in a specific discussion).

Since then, the only times I've joined IRC or Zulip have been for core dev
and post-conference sprints, where I really was spending several hours in a
block on Python in general and not already focused on a specific writing or
development task.

So right now, I'd want a poll option that let me say "Only for specific
events (e.g. sprints), and will use whatever is nominated for the event"

But to figure out if a new channel (or resuscitating Zulip!) would be
viable, the information needed would be whether or not folks are prepared
to *idle* in the channel (even if they went AFK), with a view to becoming
regular participants, and what times they would be prepared to do that.

If there aren't half a dozen or a dozen folks willing to at least try to be
regulars in the channel (I don't actually know the minimum viable seed
number, but I assume there is academic research somewhere estimating it),
and their expected availability times don't have at least some overlap,
then I wouldn't expect a new channel to be any more successful than the
previous attempts.

Cheers,
Nick.

>
>
>
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Paul Moore

On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 21:18, Senthil Kumaran  wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 08:53:13PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
> > The problem with this, I think, is that my choice would be
> >
> > * Whichever one people actually used
>
> That's self-referencing, and unsolvable.

It is, but it's true nevertheless. I suppose I'd have to abstain in
that case. Would an "I'd be happy to have a chat platform but don't
care which one" option defeat the purpose?

> > In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people
> > problem.
>
> Both. I didn't suggest this is technology problem. We, have to
> choose one as per majority convenience.

Fair enough. That suggests that abstaining is the right answer for
people without a preference, I guess.

> > Do enough of the core devs actually *want* to hang out in a
> > chat forum to achieve critical mass and make it worthwhile?
>
> Yes, that's why the choice exist that "We don't want any chat platform".

OK, as long as you don't also assume that abstention means "not
interested in chat".

> > Also, what would we talk about?
>
> Just as #python-dev or #python, but more constrained to committer
> discussions.

Sorry, I don't use IRC so that doesn't help much (maybe that suggests
I should have said my preference is "anything except IRC" :-))
Although the reason I never really did much with IRC was that it
seemed a bit too focused on the drop-in "hey, can anyone help" type of
interaction. So if that's a fair assessment then I can go with that
(and in that case I'd revise my vote to "not interested", as I
probably wouldn't stay logged onto a chat system if it was limited to
that type of conversation).

Paul
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 08:53:13PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
> The problem with this, I think, is that my choice would be
> 
> * Whichever one people actually used

That's self-referencing, and unsolvable.

> In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people
> problem. 

Both. I didn't suggest this is technology problem. We, have to
choose one as per majority convenience.

> Do enough of the core devs actually *want* to hang out in a
> chat forum to achieve critical mass and make it worthwhile? 

Yes, that's why the choice exist that "We don't want any chat platform".

> Also, what would we talk about? 

Just as #python-dev or #python, but more constrained to committer 
discussions. 


-- 
Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Paul Moore

On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 19:51, Senthil Kumaran  wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07:12AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
> > You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear
> > winner.
>
> Yes, after hearing some opinions, I plan to do that. Right now, I guess
> the choices I am thinking are
>
> - No, I am not interested in Chat.
> - Focus on #python-dev IRC
> - Focus on Zulip. Keep #python-dev for alerts.
> - Gitter
> - Discord
> - Slack
>
> Platform + Community (number of votes) might help us come to a
> consensus.

The problem with this, I think, is that my choice would be

* Whichever one people actually used

In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people
problem. Do enough of the core devs actually *want* to hang out in a
chat forum to achieve critical mass and make it worthwhile? Also, what
would we talk about? Would it only be for things like "hey, does
anybody know how X works, because I'm looking at bpo-" or would
"social" conversations be acceptable? How far would that go? Funny cat
videos? I'm half joking, but the truth is that a community is more
than just technical questions, but I don't know how many of us would
like that sort of community. But conversely, a platform that people
simply "pop in to" when they have a question won't last very long.

Paul
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Antoine Pitrou



Le 14/05/2021 à 21:40, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:21:14PM +0200, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:

Wouldn't it make more sense to run a matrix.org server which then
connects and bridges across all those channels ?

https://matrix.org/bridges/

People could then continue to use their preferred platform,
without losing touch.


I haven't used matrix at all, so I couldn't imagine this.  This is a
great idea.


I don't think this is a great idea at all. The level of integration and 
polishness will probably be rather low, and functionality (e.g. 
discussion threads) will inevitably be constrained by the lowest common 
denominator.


IOW, you're probably looking at a user experience as frustrating as 
Discourse's bidirectional e-mail bridge.


Regards

Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:21:14PM +0200, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:
> Wouldn't it make more sense to run a matrix.org server which then
> connects and bridges across all those channels ?
> 
> https://matrix.org/bridges/
> 
> People could then continue to use their preferred platform,
> without losing touch.

I haven't used matrix at all, so I couldn't imagine this.  This is a
great idea. If we don't have a clear consensus, but find many platforms
equally preferable, then matrix bridge the islands.

One downside is, self-hosting and administration aspects that Marriata
brought up. It will have to be resolved separately.

-- 
Senthil

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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Marc-Andre Lemburg

On 14.05.2021 20:50, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07:12AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
> 
>> You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear
>> winner.
> 
> Yes, after hearing some opinions, I plan to do that. Right now, I guess
> the choices I am thinking are
> 
> - No, I am not interested in Chat.
> - Focus on #python-dev IRC
> - Focus on Zulip. Keep #python-dev for alerts.
> - Gitter
> - Discord
> - Slack
>
> Platform + Community (number of votes) might help us come to a
> consensus.
> 
> Note: This is for #python-committers. For #users, I think, discord,
> slack, IRC, are present at the moment.

Wouldn't it make more sense to run a matrix.org server which then
connects and bridges across all those channels ?

https://matrix.org/bridges/

People could then continue to use their preferred platform,
without losing touch.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, May 14 2021)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 06:30:33PM +, Jason R. Coombs wrote:
> Would be delighted if there was a preferred platform for chat and that 
> platform
> be documented (and allowed to change as solutions and the community evolves).

This resonates well with me. Especially as I use _ these chat platforms_
with other communities.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:28:48AM -0700, Mariatta wrote:

> I hope we can properly evaluate how the next chosen chatting platform
> can be used more effectively.

I agree. The proposal is like choice of Github. We don't self-host, but
if identify something that will work for us (provided there is a need).

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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07:12AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:

> You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear
> winner.

Yes, after hearing some opinions, I plan to do that. Right now, I guess
the choices I am thinking are

- No, I am not interested in Chat.
- Focus on #python-dev IRC
- Focus on Zulip. Keep #python-dev for alerts.
- Gitter
- Discord
- Slack

Platform + Community (number of votes) might help us come to a
consensus.

Note: This is for #python-committers. For #users, I think, discord,
slack, IRC, are present at the moment.

-- 
Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Jason R. Coombs

For CPython, I’ve been present on IRC and Zulip and Slack and Discord (and 
would prefer them in the reverse of that order).

I’ve used Gitter for CherryPy and Setuptools and Xonsh, but found the interface 
kinda meh compared to Slack and Discord.

Would be delighted if there was a preferred platform for chat and that platform 
be documented (and allowed to change as solutions and the community evolves).

On 14 May, 2021, at 14:07, Brett Cannon 
mailto:br...@python.org>> wrote:

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 6:48 AM Senthil Kumaran 
mailto:sent...@python.org>> wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> #python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015.
> Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a chat
> for CPython at all.

I know, it was useful, and #python is still. The bot, github, buildbot
made it more alerts only. Looks like Victor and few others still use it.

> Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip.  I would even say that Zulip
> is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the alternatives don't
> come near.  Its threading system is really superior to everything else.

With Zulip, I find it hard to understand, why I need two namespaces (for
lack of better term) before I start writing my text in Zulip chat.

#topic->subtopic [content]

I have not been a part of the community that uses Zulip effectively, so
I haven't learnt it well.

> The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try another
> chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of properties do Slack,
> Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are actually quite annoying
> in my experience.

Some have community advantage. K8s, Golang people are on Slack. Multiple
Companies are on Slack, technical barrier is very low. Similar is the
case with Discord.

Yeah, I don't know if the Python community as a whole has totally settled on a 
platform.

Community usage, and usability _perhaps_ go hand in hand. General numbers
could support for this.

That said. If we (a quorum) feel comfortable using anything like IRC,
Zulip, I agree, we don't need another one.

You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and 
see if there's a clear winner.

-Brett

--
Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Mariatta

I'm hesitant to start yet another communication channel without considering
all the maintenance work that it entails.
It's not just about "let's spin up the server" but we should think about
who will moderate and administer it.
Since we have tried various platforms in the past, and some just didn't
work for whatever reason, it would be good to analyze and find out why we
didn't like them, and how to ensure that the next platform will not end up
the same fate.
I hope we can properly evaluate how the next chosen chatting platform can
be used more effectively.


On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07 AM Brett Cannon  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 6:48 AM Senthil Kumaran 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>> > #python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015.
>> > Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a
>> chat
>> > for CPython at all.
>>
>> I know, it was useful, and #python is still. The bot, github, buildbot
>> made it more alerts only. Looks like Victor and few others still use it.
>>
>>
>> > Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip.  I would even say that
>> Zulip
>> > is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the alternatives
>> don't
>> > come near.  Its threading system is really superior to everything else.
>>
>> With Zulip, I find it hard to understand, why I need two namespaces (for
>> lack of better term) before I start writing my text in Zulip chat.
>>
>> #topic->subtopic [content]
>>
>> I have not been a part of the community that uses Zulip effectively, so
>> I haven't learnt it well.
>>
>> > The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try
>> another
>> > chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of properties do
>> Slack,
>> > Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are actually quite
>> annoying
>> > in my experience.
>>
>> Some have community advantage. K8s, Golang people are on Slack. Multiple
>> Companies are on Slack, technical barrier is very low. Similar is the
>> case with Discord.
>>
>
> Yeah, I don't know if the Python community as a whole has totally settled
> on a platform.
>
>
>>
>> Community usage, and usability _perhaps_ go hand in hand. General numbers
>> could support for this.
>>
>> That said. If we (a quorum) feel comfortable using anything like IRC,
>> Zulip, I agree, we don't need another one.
>>
>
> You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear
> winner.
>
> -Brett
>
>
>>
>> --
>> Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Brett Cannon

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 6:48 AM Senthil Kumaran  wrote:

> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > #python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015.
> > Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a
> chat
> > for CPython at all.
>
> I know, it was useful, and #python is still. The bot, github, buildbot
> made it more alerts only. Looks like Victor and few others still use it.
>
>
> > Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip.  I would even say that
> Zulip
> > is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the alternatives don't
> > come near.  Its threading system is really superior to everything else.
>
> With Zulip, I find it hard to understand, why I need two namespaces (for
> lack of better term) before I start writing my text in Zulip chat.
>
> #topic->subtopic [content]
>
> I have not been a part of the community that uses Zulip effectively, so
> I haven't learnt it well.
>
> > The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try
> another
> > chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of properties do
> Slack,
> > Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are actually quite
> annoying
> > in my experience.
>
> Some have community advantage. K8s, Golang people are on Slack. Multiple
> Companies are on Slack, technical barrier is very low. Similar is the
> case with Discord.
>

Yeah, I don't know if the Python community as a whole has totally settled
on a platform.


>
> Community usage, and usability _perhaps_ go hand in hand. General numbers
> could support for this.
>
> That said. If we (a quorum) feel comfortable using anything like IRC,
> Zulip, I agree, we don't need another one.
>

You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear
winner.

-Brett


>
> --
> Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 12:28:00PM +0200, Victor Stinner wrote:
> 
> The bugs.python.org and buildbot notifications are useful to me and I
> don't feel annoyed by them. But GitHub review are hard to use: only
> the user name and the PR number are given: PR title and comment
> content are not provided, you have to click on each link to know more.
> Moreover, when a user leaves 10 comments, there are 10 IRC
> notifications!

That's my experience too. Should the bot alerts be sent different
channel, so that it has more people focus?

> Mailing lists, discuss.python.org, IRC, Zulipchat, Twitter, private
> messages, etc. Well, I have enough communication channels to talk with
> other core devs ;-)
> https://pythondev.readthedocs.io/communication.html

Certainly. If we introduce another, perhaps the kill one which which
didn't take off. I agree, not introducing another one to be mix is
desirable.

-- 
Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> #python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015.
> Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a chat
> for CPython at all.

I know, it was useful, and #python is still. The bot, github, buildbot
made it more alerts only. Looks like Victor and few others still use it.

> Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip.  I would even say that Zulip
> is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the alternatives don't
> come near.  Its threading system is really superior to everything else.

With Zulip, I find it hard to understand, why I need two namespaces (for
lack of better term) before I start writing my text in Zulip chat. 

#topic->subtopic [content]

I have not been a part of the community that uses Zulip effectively, so
I haven't learnt it well. 

> The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try another
> chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of properties do Slack,
> Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are actually quite annoying
> in my experience.

Some have community advantage. K8s, Golang people are on Slack. Multiple
Companies are on Slack, technical barrier is very low. Similar is the
case with Discord.

Community usage, and usability _perhaps_ go hand in hand. General numbers
could support for this.

That said. If we (a quorum) feel comfortable using anything like IRC,
Zulip, I agree, we don't need another one.

-- 
Senthil
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Victor Stinner

Hi,

I'm always connected to IRC #python-dev (Freenode) for 10 years, a few
other core devs use it time to time. Come to say hello ;-)

The bugs.python.org and buildbot notifications are useful to me and I
don't feel annoyed by them. But GitHub review are hard to use: only
the user name and the PR number are given: PR title and comment
content are not provided, you have to click on each link to know more.
Moreover, when a user leaves 10 comments, there are 10 IRC
notifications!

Example:

11:17 < Not-4ecb> [cpython] shihai1991 reviewed pull request #26103
commit - https://git.io/JsOQn

I almost never go to Zulipchat. I was there one month ago, 6 months
since my previous visit. There were few messages.

Mailing lists, discuss.python.org, IRC, Zulipchat, Twitter, private
messages, etc. Well, I have enough communication channels to talk with
other core devs ;-)
https://pythondev.readthedocs.io/communication.html

Victor
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat

2021-05-14 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Le 14/05/2021 à 09:26, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:03:05AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

Well, the more you create chat services for a single purpose, the less
you're likely to actually find a community there. Why do you want to use
Gitter if Zulip and IRC already exist?

The goal is not the tool, but the community chat, specifically, core-dev
chat, and to find if most feel 'OK' to give a shot at chat again.

I notice, I use Slack and Discord for specific purposes, as there is
channel for the topic I am interested in, community presence, and
convenience.

The tool, could be determined based what many feel comfortable with.

- Zulip and IRC for core-dev, have been tried, and not been successful.
- Gitter, Slack, or Discord for Core-Development needs have not been
tried yet.

#python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015.
Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a
chat for CPython at all.

Similarly, I would have no problem using Zulip. I would even say that
Zulip is by far the best chat system I've ever used, and the
alternatives don't come near. Its threading system is really superior
to everything else.

The idea that if people don't use IRC and Zulip, then we should try
another chat system, sounds like magical thought. What kind of
properties do Slack, Gitter or Discord have that Zulip doesn't? They are
actually quite annoying in my experience.

Regards

Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat