Re: [RBW] Re: TCO - Oh The Horror!

[Rene Valbuena]

yes, jimD, somebody who hasn't found a life since patrick moore told us to find 
one, might take you up on this and call the attention of the U.S. Consumer 
Product Safety Commission on the dangers of TCO. -- Rene

-Original Message-
>From: dpco 
>Sent: Feb 5, 2010 12:51 AM
>To: RBW Owners Bunch 
>Subject: [RBW] Re: TCO - Oh The Horror!
>
>jim,
>in today's world, someone will take your statement out of context and
>display you as someone thinking that tco is deadly. all my bikes have
>"tco".
>don
>
>On Feb 4, 9:39 pm, JimD  wrote:
>> Until the recent endless discussions here concerning TCO I didn't have  
>> a clue about it.
>>
>> Now I discover that three custom bikes I've ridden and liked the most  
>> over the past 30 years have
>> all had the dreaded TCO. I'm bummed and thinking I've should have  
>> employed more competent designers.
>>
>> I guess my size 12 feet have something to do with it. That, or folks  
>> were holding out on me.
>>
>> In hindsight, I should have been more discriminating but ignorance is  
>> bliss. Maybe we can get the Consumer Products Safety
>> folks on board with this issue.
>>
>> JimD
>
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>



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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Philip Williamson]

On Feb 4, 12:18 pm, CycloFiend  wrote:
> on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Rene at valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
...
> You could probably measure the BB to front axle distance, and see if there
> was a consistency in what size caused the issue. The variables would be
> wheel size, tire size, fender standoff (gap from tire), fender thickness,
> shoe size (literally, the materal thickness at the toe), foot position with
> relation to pedal spindle (i.e. how much "meat" is in front of the spindle,
...

Two more variables - foot angle and crank length. The angle of your
toe up or down ("pitch?") affects your TCO. I can go from a full inch
of overlap to none just by tilting my size 12s up or down.  Employee
sizing a bike: "So, what's your PBH? Okay. How do you pedal? What's
the yaw, roll and pitch of your foot when pedaling normally? What do
you mean 'what?' You know: Yaw! Pitch! Roll!"

I have fat knobbies and metal fenders on my (fixed) 60cm Quickbeam,
and I hit the fender stays sometimes at slow speeds. When I had 175mm
cranks on the bike, I hit the fender all the time. That's not why I
took them off the bike, but I probably wouldn't put them back on,
either.

 Philip

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[RBW] Re: FS:56cm Saluki School Bus Yellow

[rcnute]

Hobie, Google isn't letting me unlock your email.  Did you sell this?

Ryan
rcn...@hotmail.com

On Jan 9, 6:02 am, hobie  wrote:
> 18 month old 56cm Saluki 650B,school bus yellow.Sidepull, centerpull
> brakes,3 water bottle bosses, kickstand plate,frame saver used..I'm
> the original owner,purchased new from Rivendell.It has been ridden
> moderatly.Unfortunately it is to small for me so it is looking for a
> new home.It has a few scuffs,scratches,a few decal scars but still in
> overall excellent condition, no dents or dings.Need I say more how Riv
> bikes ride.It's hard to get it out of your blood!!! Intoxicating
> ride!!! $1,250.00 Frame,fork,113mm Ird Bottom Bracket and shipping
> included.Thanks for looking

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[RBW] sold my "ram"

[dpco]

this may be a "corny" thread to some, but i really regret selling my
rambouillet. i own some great bikes ( a 60x57 tournesol and a
60x57hampsten) and they are very similar( 1cm shorter top tube and
43cm chainstays). as a matter of fact, they are very similar to the
roadeos. i just miss the bike because, the buying experience helped me
to rediscover cycling in a different way. i truly hope that the
current owner can enjoy the bike.
sincerely, don

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[RBW] Re: TCO - Oh The Horror!

[dpco]

jim,
in today's world, someone will take your statement out of context and
display you as someone thinking that tco is deadly. all my bikes have
"tco".
don

On Feb 4, 9:39 pm, JimD  wrote:
> Until the recent endless discussions here concerning TCO I didn't have  
> a clue about it.
>
> Now I discover that three custom bikes I've ridden and liked the most  
> over the past 30 years have
> all had the dreaded TCO. I'm bummed and thinking I've should have  
> employed more competent designers.
>
> I guess my size 12 feet have something to do with it. That, or folks  
> were holding out on me.
>
> In hindsight, I should have been more discriminating but ignorance is  
> bliss. Maybe we can get the Consumer Products Safety
> folks on board with this issue.
>
> JimD

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[RBW] Re: FS VO Croissant Bag

[RoadieRyan]

Has been taken thanks for your interest

On Feb 4, 9:27 am, RoadieRyan  wrote:
> I really like the look of this bag but the way it hangs interferes
> with my rear rack set up so I am going to sell it and go with a mini
> tail pack.  It got used for about 3 months so its much "like new"
> condition wiht a few spots of dust here and some buckle lines on the
> straps.  Thought I would offer it to the list before going the CL
> route.
>
> New they are $55 I am asking $40 and I will cover ground shipping in
> the lower 48
>
> You can see pictures athttp://tinyurl.com/yjc9o26 or check it out 
> athttp://www.velo-orange.com/
>
> if interested contact me off list.  .Thanks
>
> rya...@hotmail.com

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Re: [RBW] TCO - Oh The Horror!

[cyclotourist]

TCO= the Audi 5000 of cycling

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:39 PM, JimD  wrote:

> Until the recent endless discussions here concerning TCO I didn't have a
> clue about it.
>
> Now I discover that three custom bikes I've ridden and liked the most over
> the past 30 years have
> all had the dreaded TCO. I'm bummed and thinking I've should have employed
> more competent designers.
>
> I guess my size 12 feet have something to do with it. That, or folks were
> holding out on me.
>
> In hindsight, I should have been more discriminating but ignorance is
> bliss. Maybe we can get the Consumer Products Safety
> folks on board with this issue.
>
>
> JimD
>
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>
>


-- 
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye,
scientist guy

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[RBW] TCO - Oh The Horror!

[JimD]

Until the recent endless discussions here concerning TCO I didn't have  
a clue about it.


Now I discover that three custom bikes I've ridden and liked the most  
over the past 30 years have
all had the dreaded TCO. I'm bummed and thinking I've should have  
employed more competent designers.


I guess my size 12 feet have something to do with it. That, or folks  
were holding out on me.


In hindsight, I should have been more discriminating but ignorance is  
bliss. Maybe we can get the Consumer Products Safety

folks on board with this issue.


JimD

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[RBW] Re: Lightweight yet traditional and BOBish

[usuk2007]

Yes Henry Kingman's setup was an inspiration.

On Feb 4, 7:39 pm, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 09:54 -0800, usuk2007 wrote:
> > FYI here is a traditional three bag set up using some ultralight
> > principles that will allow indefinite, unsupported, civilized, three
> > season touring at a weight of 22lbs. It can be installed on any bike,
> > road, touring, mountain as it requires no eyelets and even if you
> > don’t have saddlebag loops you can buy simple clamp on ones or use a
> > quick release Bagman. If I loose a few pounds I’m thinking of  trying
> > this setup on my DeRosa Neo Primato. That would be touring on an
> > Italian steel bike with Japanese components and English bicycle bags.
> > Call me crazy, but I just love the idea of all those weird
> > juxtapositions.
>
> >http://wheelsofchance.org/2010/02/02/ultralight-setup/
>
> That setup looks a lot like the rig Henry Kingman used with the
> Rambouillet prototype, written up in Riv Reader around 2002.

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Re: [RBW] Re: WTB: 58cm atlantis frameset

[andrew hill]

i couldn't wait.. just placed an order for the last orange Sam :)
the next couple of weeks are going to be like a kid leading up to xmas !

i'm having it built up with bullmoose bars and woodies, for that old-school 
look.. 
i'll take some pics when it gets here.  

i can't believe i just bought a bike and already am planning on buying another 
come july/august, when the Hunq is available.  

cheers,
andrew

On Feb 4, 2010, at 9:46 AM, neurodrum wrote:

> still looking for a 58cm Atlantis frame or even complete..
> 
> i was hoping to get a used one so i could save my new-bike funds for a
> Hunq, but i may be forced to buy a new Atlantis if nobody has one to
> pass on.
> 
> i just sold my XO-1 (thanks Mitch!) so i have cash in hand for a
> frame.
> contact me if you are thinking about selling one :)
> 
> cheers,
> andrew-who-is-without-a-road-bike-currently
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: ISO nice, small seatbag: Banana or Crossant or similar

[PATRICK MOORE]

I just ordered the tire bag plus their smallest courier bag on sale for $45;
both for less than the cost of a Banana!

Thanks again.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:53 PM, eflayer  wrote:

>
>
> http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FTBII
>
>


-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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[RBW] Re: Lightweight yet traditional and BOBish

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

This is great. Amazing how much "touring" one can do without a full
touring rig.

On Feb 4, 11:54 am, usuk2007  wrote:
> FYI here is a traditional three bag set up using some ultralight
> principles that will allow indefinite, unsupported, civilized, three
> season touring at a weight of 22lbs. It can be installed on any bike,
> road, touring, mountain as it requires no eyelets and even if you
> don’t have saddlebag loops you can buy simple clamp on ones or use a
> quick release Bagman. If I loose a few pounds I’m thinking of  trying
> this setup on my DeRosa Neo Primato. That would be touring on an
> Italian steel bike with Japanese components and English bicycle bags.
> Call me crazy, but I just love the idea of all those weird
> juxtapositions.
>
> http://wheelsofchance.org/2010/02/02/ultralight-setup/

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Re: [RBW] ISO nice, small seatbag: Banana or Crossant or similar

[PATRICK MOORE]

Thanks. It's a good size but I prefer a more wedge shaped bag for under the
seat. The Jandd that Eddie Flayer referenced looks like a good choice.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Bruce  wrote:

> At $12.99, hard to go wrong.
>
>
> http://www.banjobrothers.com/products/01061.php
>
> Or look at their other under saddle offerings
>
> --
> *From:* PATRICK MOORE 
> *T*
> *Subject:* [RBW] ISO nice, small seatbag: Banana or Crossant or similar
>
> I'm in bag mood and feverishly, with sweating red face, breathing heavily,
> am looking for a nice small seatbag for my gofast, one just big enough to
> hold a 8" minipump.
>
> I did get a very nice little tubular bag from Hiawatha recently, a
> prototype. But I think I'll use that as a bar bag for the Motobecane, since
> sits high enough to clear the Fly headlight.
>
> Anyone? Anyone?
>
>
>  --
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>



-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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Re: [RBW] Re: ISO nice, small seatbag: Banana or Crossant or similar

[PATRICK MOORE]

Bbbbut it's so cheap!

Seriously, that is a very good option; I already have a very small Jandd
pouch just big enough for two tubes and that Park no-moving-parts multitool,
but it won't hold a minipump. This looks just right.

Thanks for the reference.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:53 PM, eflayer

>
> I have never seen or used this one, but it might be even better:
>
> http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FTBII
>
>
>
-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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Re: [RBW] ISO nice, small seatbag: Banana or Crossant or similar

[Bruce]

At $12.99, hard to go wrong.


http://www.banjobrothers.com/products/01061.php

Or look at their other under saddle offerings




From: PATRICK MOORE 
T
Subject: [RBW] ISO nice, small seatbag: Banana or Crossant or similar

I'm in bag mood and feverishly, with sweating red face, breathing heavily, am 
looking for a nice small seatbag for my gofast, one just big enough to hold a 
8" minipump. 

I did get a very nice little tubular bag from Hiawatha recently, a prototype. 
But I think I'll use that as a bar bag for the Motobecane, since sits high 
enough to clear the Fly headlight.

Anyone? Anyone?


  

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[RBW] Re: ISO nice, small seatbag: Banana or Crossant or similar

[eflayer]

This is my fave for my go fast, non traditional, bikes:

http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FMW2

I can get a small mini pump in it and the rear flap is soft so you can
actually zipper it around something a little longer than the bag
itself.

I have never seen or used this one, but it might be even better:

http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FTBII

On Feb 4, 7:13 pm, PATRICK MOORE  wrote:
> I'm in bag mood and feverishly, with sweating red face, breathing heavily,
> am looking for a nice small seatbag for my gofast, one just big enough to
> hold a 8" minipump.
>
> I did get a very nice little tubular bag from Hiawatha recently, a
> prototype. But I think I'll use that as a bar bag for the Motobecane, since
> sits high enough to clear the Fly headlight.
>
> Anyone? Anyone?
>
> --
> Patrick Moore
> Albuquerque, NM
> For professional resumes, contact
> Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
> (505) 227-0523

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[RBW] Re: WTB: 58cm Quickbeam

[rcnute]

One up on the RBW website...

On Feb 1, 10:33 pm, rcnute  wrote:
> Pretty pictures!
>
> Ryan
>
> On Feb 1, 9:57 pm, John Blish  wrote:
>
> > Very sorry.  That was not intended for the list.
>
> > John
>
> > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 11:56 PM, John Blish  wrote:
> > > Hi Fausto,
>
> > > I have a 58 Quickbeam that I am willing to sell.  I would expect to get a
> > > nice price for this bike.  If you want a bargain we don't need to pursue 
> > > it
> > > but if you are looking for a great bike and one of the original (green)
> > > Quickbeams, take a look at some photos and get back to me.
>
> > >http://g7.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Rivendell-QuickBeam-a-single/5313029_a...
>
> > >http://g7.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Rivendell-QuickBeam-a-single/5313029_a...
>
> > >http://g7.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Rivendell-QuickBeam-a-single/5313029_a...
>
> > >http://g7.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Rivendell-QuickBeam-a-single/5313029_a...
>
> > >http://g7.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Rivendell-QuickBeam-a-single/5313029_a...
>
> > >http://g7.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Rivendell-QuickBeam-a-single/5313029_a...
>
> > >http://www.pbase.com/jblish/image/35904402/original
>
> > >http://www.pbase.com/jblish/image/35914935
>
> > >http://www.pbase.com/jblish/image/35914946
>
> > >http://www.pbase.com/jblish/image/35914930
>
> > > Thanks for looking.
>
> > > -jb
>
> > > On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Fausto  wrote:
>
> > >> Hi,
>
> > >> I'm looking for a 58cm Quickbeam. Complete, or frame only. No
> > >> preference on color.
>
> > >> Thanks!
>
> > >> --
> > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com.
> > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> > >> .
> > >> For more options, visit this group at
> > >>http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> > > --
> > > John Blish
> > > Minneapolis MN USA
>
> > --
> > John Blish
> > Minneapolis MN USA
>
>

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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I would NEVER post such data on the website or in any other public
place! Ignorance is bliss! TCO is simply a non-issue to 98% of riders.
The 2% who worry (justifiably, of course) about TCO will ask the
necessary questions. No sense placing doubt in the minds of the other
98%. No better way to choke off sales than by introducing an extra
variable that few will understand.

On Feb 4, 7:02 pm, Rene Valbuena  wrote:
> without being facetious, but wanting to pursue the proposal to the point of 
> absurdity, we can limit the number of variables jim pointed out to only those 
> which can be measured. let us not use the size of the shoes or even the angle 
> of the foot when pedalling or heeling the pedal. so as not to have so many 
> un-measureable variables -- we just use the two sizes of metal toe clip: 
> medium and large; two lengths of Sugino crankarm: 170mm and 175mm; and the 
> depth of the MKS touring pedal as a constant. all these components are 
> readily available from RBW. the use of actual metal toe-clips is actually 
> more appropriate, if i might say so.
>
> with these measureable combinations of variables, we then plot our findings 
> according to the following table which we can call MATRIX OF TCO OF RBW 
> BICYCLE MODELS: For example, if an A. Homer Hilsen size 57 has TCO with the 
> use of 170mm crankarm and large metal toe-clip, we put an "x" under the colum 
> "Large Toe-Clip Size" across A. Homer Hilsen 57.
>
> Model Size / crank length /Toe-Clip Size        170mm   Medium  Large   175mm 
>   Medium  Large
> Roadeo 51                                                              
> Roadeo 53                                                              
> Roadeo 55                                                              
> Roadeo 57                                                              
> Roadeo 59                                                              
> Roadeo 61                                                              
> Roadeo 63                                                         X    
> A. Homer Hilsen 57                                                            
>   
> A. Homer Hilsen 59                                                            
>   
> A. Homer Hilsen 61                                                            
>   
> A. Homer Hilsen 63                                                            
>   
> A. Homer Hilsen 65                                                            
>   
> A. Homer Hilsen 67                                                            
>   
> A. Homer Hilsen 72              
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> >From: CycloFiend 
> >Sent: Feb 4, 2010 3:18 PM
> >To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
>
> >on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Rene at valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >> TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
> >> Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
> >> sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
> >> Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
> >> what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be "a problem"
> >> even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
> >> bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
> >> RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
> >> propose it here.
>
> >I think GP's post was a new thread to comment about a previous thread.
> >Nevertheless, I do want to remind folks that if they want to communicate
> >with Rivendell on any subject, the best way if directly. (Or cc them on the
> >email with a note explaining why.) This list is an "off-site" get together.
>
> >Back on this subject, to paraphrase and engage in conjecture, I think Rene's
> >post above gets at the crux of the issue - the significant number of
> >variables in what seems a simple question.
>
> >A frame that has no TCO for a rider with size 10 feet may cause problems if
> >you are a size 12.  If I use a clip-in pedal system, with cleats under the
> >ball of my feet, that's going to be different than if I use platforms and
> >pedal with a mid-foot-centered position.  Large soled shoes?  Fitted shoes?
> >Do I make low course corrections more with body english or tiller input?
>
> >Clearly, for those folks to whom this is an issue, there must be a way to
> >quantify it.
>
> >You could probably measure the BB to front axle distance, and see if there
> >was a consistency in what size caused the issue. The variables would be
> >wheel size, tire size, fender standoff (gap from tire), fender thickness,
> >shoe size (literally, the materal thickness at the toe), foot position with
> >relation to pedal spindle (i.e. how much "meat" is in front of the spindle,
> >though you can really just combine those two variables into one), and crank
> >length. But, all of those would run on the basic dimension of bb to front
> >

[RBW] ISO nice, small seatbag: Banana or Crossant or similar

[PATRICK MOORE]

I'm in bag mood and feverishly, with sweating red face, breathing heavily,
am looking for a nice small seatbag for my gofast, one just big enough to
hold a 8" minipump.

I did get a very nice little tubular bag from Hiawatha recently, a
prototype. But I think I'll use that as a bar bag for the Motobecane, since
sits high enough to clear the Fly headlight.

Anyone? Anyone?

-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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[RBW] Misc. for sale

[MichaelS]

Hello All-

I'm cleaning out the parts drawer and thought I'd offer this stuff up here
before trying to flog elsewhere.  Sorry for the cross-post with the IBOB
list.  Prices plus actual USPS shipping with delivery confirmation.  I can
do paypal or you can send a check.  All prices negotiable.  Responses
off-list, please.  Thanks for looking!

Cheers- Mike in So. Boston, Mass



Long seat post.  Silvery, with a bit of that "fake titanium" hue.  27.2
diam., single bolt clamp, 32.5cm (13") from bottom of post to just under the
clamp.  "Top Gear" brand, but looks like the logo would come off very
easily.  Shopworn, inserted into a bike for buildup, but never ridden on.
$10

Suntour GT rear mech.  Aluminum body, steel cage.  Kinda heavy, but bullet
proof.  Shopworn Very Good conition.  $10

Cable stops:  Rockwerks "V-Type Housing Stops"  Clamps on to a frame tube
and can hold two cable ends securely for derailers, v-brakes, internal hubs,
bar end shifters, etc.  I have two, one fits 1 1/8" ("standard") tubing the
other is for 1 1/4" ("over sized") tubes.  $10 each

Kool stop dual compound (black/salmon) brake pads.  Fits Campy Record,
Chorus, Athena and Shimano ST-7401 holders, or so says the package.  One set
new in package, the other was opened just long enough for me to realize they
wouldn't work on my brakes.  $10 for both sets.

Cantilever brakes.  Dia Compe 981 Vintage mountain bike brakes in pretty
good used condition.  Wide profile.  Complete set (one bike's worth)
including arms, springs, mounting bolts, straddle wires, new heavy duty
straddle wire holders, and never used pads.  Classic, awesome cantilevers.
$30

Cantilever brakes.  Dia Compe mini ("shorty") cantilevers.  Vintage- found
on many early '80s touring bikes.  Also in pretty good used condition.
These look really nice on a steel road bike with their low profile. Complete
set (one bike's worth) including arms, springs, mounting bolts, straddle
wire holders, 4 (yes, 4, you'll want a backup set) of the hard to come by
170mm double ended straddle wires.  I pried the holders open and replaced
substandard original pads with Scott Matthauser salmon pads (later
copied/made by Kool Stop.)  Pads are used and not super pretty, but have
tons of life left. $35

Photos here:



Again:  off list please, and if you think something's too dear, make me an
offer.

Cheers- Mike

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Re: [RBW] Re: Help with V brakes on Sam

[clyde canter]

http://picasaweb.google.com/clyde.canter/TheWinterOfSam#

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:14 PM, clyde canter  wrote:

> Forgot the wheels.
> Ultegra hubs..7 speed 36 front and rear.
> Mavic Open Sport rear,  MA-40 front.
> Pasela 35 TGs
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:05 PM, clyde canter wrote:
>
>> Okay some pics.  Excuse my cluttered basement.
>> I'm not a whiz at this kind of thing but maybe this will work.
>> http://www5.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=1018276026/
>>
>> Couldn't get Flikr to upload.
>>
>> A brief rundown of the build.
>> 60cm frame... Hset, BB, seatpost that came with it
>> Sugino XD2 crank...48, 36,34
>> MKS GR-9 pedals, Soma double-double clips VO straps
>> Deore LX rear der.
>> Old Deore front der.
>> Deore V brakes
>> Tektro levers
>> Alba bars
>> 7 speed Shimano downtube shifters on bar end pods.
>> Sr 11-28 cassette (7 speed)
>> Sackville lil loafer on Mark's rack. ..The very bright object in a few
>> of the shots
>> Duluth pack bar tube.
>> Cateye puter.
>> Cork bar tape for grips
>>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[JoelMatthews]

Well yeah.  Small bike, medium to high trail, 700c wheel, probably
some tco.  Play with the trail - Rivs don't do low - and you may be
able to avoid.  Or as the form says, opt for smaller wheels.  Not
always an option with stock bikes.

On Feb 4, 8:50 pm, Richard  wrote:
> The order form for a custom Rivendell explains TCO, and asks if TCO is
> or is not acceptable.
>
> http://www.rivbike.com/assets/payloads/177/original_custom_frame_form...
>
> On Feb 3, 12:51 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:
>
>
>
> > > On a single I'm willing to put up with some TCO, though I'm very glad
> > > that Mike Barry designed my Mariposa without it.
>
> > You cannot compare a custom with a stock design.  Unless the owner
> > demands some wacky wheel size/geometry, a custom builder should have a
> > lot more flexibility than a basic design carried through on several
> > sizes.
>
> > On Feb 3, 11:48 am, Kenneth Stagg  wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:37 AM, james black  wrote:
> > > > ... I
> > > > am mildly annoyed and feel vaguely insulted by the point of view I
> > > > sometimes encounter that TCO is an imaginary problem, or that I'm some
> > > > kind of dimwit because it bothers me. There are other cyclists
> > > > (customers) like me - bike designers should be attentive to this fact.
>
> > > I agree.  That's the part of this whole debate that bothers me.  It's
> > > not that those of us who care about it can't appreciate that some
> > > people don't, it's that some people try to tell us it's an imaginary
> > > problem and that we should just get over it.
>
> > > On a single I'm willing to put up with some TCO, though I'm very glad
> > > that Mike Barry designed my Mariposa without it.  On a tandem I would
> > > not consider putting up with it - it's too dangerous when the person
> > > controlling the bike doesn't have complete control of the pedals.
>
> > > -Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Richard]

The order form for a custom Rivendell explains TCO, and asks if TCO is
or is not acceptable.

http://www.rivbike.com/assets/payloads/177/original_custom_frame_form.pdf

On Feb 3, 12:51 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:
> > On a single I'm willing to put up with some TCO, though I'm very glad
> > that Mike Barry designed my Mariposa without it.
>
> You cannot compare a custom with a stock design.  Unless the owner
> demands some wacky wheel size/geometry, a custom builder should have a
> lot more flexibility than a basic design carried through on several
> sizes.
>
> On Feb 3, 11:48 am, Kenneth Stagg  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:37 AM, james black  wrote:
> > > ... I
> > > am mildly annoyed and feel vaguely insulted by the point of view I
> > > sometimes encounter that TCO is an imaginary problem, or that I'm some
> > > kind of dimwit because it bothers me. There are other cyclists
> > > (customers) like me - bike designers should be attentive to this fact.
>
> > I agree.  That's the part of this whole debate that bothers me.  It's
> > not that those of us who care about it can't appreciate that some
> > people don't, it's that some people try to tell us it's an imaginary
> > problem and that we should just get over it.
>
> > On a single I'm willing to put up with some TCO, though I'm very glad
> > that Mike Barry designed my Mariposa without it.  On a tandem I would
> > not consider putting up with it - it's too dangerous when the person
> > controlling the bike doesn't have complete control of the pedals.
>
> > -Ken- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Rene Valbuena]

without being facetious, but wanting to pursue the proposal to the point of 
absurdity, we can limit the number of variables jim pointed out to only those 
which can be measured. let us not use the size of the shoes or even the angle 
of the foot when pedalling or heeling the pedal. so as not to have so many 
un-measureable variables -- we just use the two sizes of metal toe clip: medium 
and large; two lengths of Sugino crankarm: 170mm and 175mm; and the depth of 
the MKS touring pedal as a constant. all these components are readily available 
from RBW. the use of actual metal toe-clips is actually more appropriate, if i 
might say so.

with these measureable combinations of variables, we then plot our findings 
according to the following table which we can call MATRIX OF TCO OF RBW BICYCLE 
MODELS: For example, if an A. Homer Hilsen size 57 has TCO with the use of 
170mm crankarm and large metal toe-clip, we put an "x" under the colum "Large 
Toe-Clip Size" across A. Homer Hilsen 57.


Model Size / crank length /Toe-Clip Size170mm   Medium  Large   175mm   
Medium  Large
Roadeo 51   
Roadeo 53   
Roadeo 55   
Roadeo 57   
Roadeo 59   
Roadeo 61   
Roadeo 63 X 
A. Homer Hilsen 57  
A. Homer Hilsen 59  
A. Homer Hilsen 61  
A. Homer Hilsen 63  
A. Homer Hilsen 65  
A. Homer Hilsen 67  
A. Homer Hilsen 72  

-Original Message-
>From: CycloFiend 
>Sent: Feb 4, 2010 3:18 PM
>To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
>
>on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Rene at valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
>> Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
>> sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
>> Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
>> what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be "a problem"
>> even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
>> bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
>> RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
>> propose it here.
>
>I think GP's post was a new thread to comment about a previous thread.
>Nevertheless, I do want to remind folks that if they want to communicate
>with Rivendell on any subject, the best way if directly. (Or cc them on the
>email with a note explaining why.) This list is an "off-site" get together.
>
>Back on this subject, to paraphrase and engage in conjecture, I think Rene's
>post above gets at the crux of the issue - the significant number of
>variables in what seems a simple question.
>
>A frame that has no TCO for a rider with size 10 feet may cause problems if
>you are a size 12.  If I use a clip-in pedal system, with cleats under the
>ball of my feet, that's going to be different than if I use platforms and
>pedal with a mid-foot-centered position.  Large soled shoes?  Fitted shoes?
>Do I make low course corrections more with body english or tiller input?
>
>Clearly, for those folks to whom this is an issue, there must be a way to
>quantify it. 
>
>You could probably measure the BB to front axle distance, and see if there
>was a consistency in what size caused the issue. The variables would be
>wheel size, tire size, fender standoff (gap from tire), fender thickness,
>shoe size (literally, the materal thickness at the toe), foot position with
>relation to pedal spindle (i.e. how much "meat" is in front of the spindle,
>though you can really just combine those two variables into one), and crank
>length. But, all of those would run on the basic dimension of bb to front
>axle. 
>
>So, I get all charged up and measure this out on the Quickbeam, a 58 cm
>frame which seems to have about a 610 mm bb-front axle measurement. The
>distance from the axle to the outside of the fender is 362 mm, the cranks
>are 170 mm and the "foot protrusion" is 100 mm. Which would mean that the
>overlap is ~22 mm. 
>
>Except it isn't. I don't have any issues on that bike.
>
>And then it dawns on me that the whole thing has a 2nd dimension which
>involves (a) the arc of the front wheel and (b) the offset of foot position
>from the centerline of the bike

Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[cyclotourist]

Yeah, remind me to never ever, ever-never ask a question on the
internets



On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Robert F. Harrison wrote:

> Actually I think this round of TCO discussion was started off with this
> innocuous little query...
>
> Subject: TCO on an Atlantis?
> Morning query:  With BIG 50mm or larger tires on a 700c Atlantis, are
> there TCO issues?
> Enjoy a Sunday ride!
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
>
> Grant did start this particular thread in response to that thread which
> also diverged into a thread about tire width side of things. So while he may
> have started the thread, he did not start the topic, he was responding to
> it, albeit using a different subject line.
>
> Apparently I don't have anything better to do today than sort through old
> email. :-)
>
> And, if one really wanted to go back, I thinking one could claim this is
> all just an extension of the 12/1/2007 (!) topic:
>
> Not The Last Word on TCO ( http://goo.gl/SaGU )
>
>
>
> One my QB (700c/35mm/fendered/big feet/no clips) I did experience a wee bit
> of TCO (no consequences) the first day I rode it and, having noted it, have
> never had a problem since then. At least on my bike it isn't particularly
> hard to avoid, even at low speed.
>
> Aloha! Bob
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Rene Valbuena 
> wrote:
> >
> > I do have a life. that's why i don't reply to any all topics here;-) if
> grant did not start the thread, who did? isn't it if your name is on top of
> the topic or the first one, it is considered that you started the topic? --
> rene
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: PATRICK MOORE
> > Sent: Feb 4, 2010 12:13 PM
> > To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
> >
> > Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.
> >
> > But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move
> on to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't like
> his haircut. Anyone else care to chime in?
> >
> > Christ! Let's all get ourselves lives!
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Rene  wrote:
> >>
> >> TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
> >> Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
> >> sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
> >> Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
> >> what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be "a problem"
> >> even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
> >> bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
> >> RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
> >> propose it here.
> >>
> >> -- Rene
> >>
> >> On Feb 3, 2:12 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:
> >> > Anne and James:
> >> >
> >> > I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less
> >> > sensitive to GP's choice of words.
> >> >
> >> > On Feb 3, 1:05 pm, Anne Paulson  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews 
> wrote:
> >> > > >> Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers
> like
> >> > > >> myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant),
> and
> >> > > >> deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or
> acknowledging
> >> > > >> that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be
> tolerated.
> >> >
> >> > > > Isn't that what Grant says in his post?
> >> >
> >> > > He said: "TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in
> >> > > theoretics, but not in practice."
> >> >
> >> > > For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the
> >> > > desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design
> considerations.
> >> > > I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an
> >> > > actual problem for me.
> >> >
> >> > > --
> >> > > -- Anne Paulson
> >> >
> >> > > He who wills the ends wills the means- Hide quoted text -
> >> >
> >> > - Show quoted text -
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> .
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Patrick Moore
> > Albuquerque, NM
> > For professional resumes, contact
> > Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
> > (505) 227-0523
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> .
> > For more options, visit this group at
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> >
> > --
> > You 

[RBW] Re: Lightweight yet traditional and BOBish

[Angus]

I very much admire a set up like thisand have never been able to
pry myself away from panniers.

Angus

On Feb 4, 11:54 am, usuk2007  wrote:
> FYI here is a traditional three bag set up using some ultralight
> principles that will allow indefinite, unsupported, civilized, three
> season touring at a weight of 22lbs. It can be installed on any bike,
> road, touring, mountain as it requires no eyelets and even if you
> don’t have saddlebag loops you can buy simple clamp on ones or use a
> quick release Bagman. If I loose a few pounds I’m thinking of  trying
> this setup on my DeRosa Neo Primato. That would be touring on an
> Italian steel bike with Japanese components and English bicycle bags.
> Call me crazy, but I just love the idea of all those weird
> juxtapositions.
>
> http://wheelsofchance.org/2010/02/02/ultralight-setup/

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Re: [RBW] Re: Help with V brakes on Sam

[clyde canter]

Forgot the wheels.
Ultegra hubs..7 speed 36 front and rear.
Mavic Open Sport rear,  MA-40 front.
Pasela 35 TGs

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:05 PM, clyde canter  wrote:

> Okay some pics.  Excuse my cluttered basement.
> I'm not a whiz at this kind of thing but maybe this will work.
> http://www5.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=1018276026/
>
> Couldn't get Flikr to upload.
>
> A brief rundown of the build.
> 60cm frame... Hset, BB, seatpost that came with it
> Sugino XD2 crank...48, 36,34
> MKS GR-9 pedals, Soma double-double clips VO straps
> Deore LX rear der.
> Old Deore front der.
> Deore V brakes
> Tektro levers
> Alba bars
> 7 speed Shimano downtube shifters on bar end pods.
> Sr 11-28 cassette (7 speed)
> Sackville lil loafer on Mark's rack. ..The very bright object in a few
> of the shots
> Duluth pack bar tube.
> Cateye puter.
> Cork bar tape for grips
>

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[RBW] Re: 26 inch wheels

[Angus]

"I found that Primo 26 x 1.0  and Pasela 26 x 1.25 at 100 psi are
every bit as fast as any 700C
road tire I have used."

Tim,

When I first assembled my All-Rounder in 1998 I used Ritchey 26x1.4
tires.  The bike was measurably slower than my Rivendell Road
Standard.  I thought "this bike is a dog!"...then I got smart(er) and
changed to Pasela 26x1.25 tires.  Then there was no measurable speed
difference between the bikes.  I ended up using the All-Rounder and
those tires for several centuries including "Ride Around the Bear"
that had lots of climbing.

Currently on of the original, 12 year old, Ritcheys (Ritchies?) is on
the front of the All-Rounder.  Probably well past it's sell by date...
(I'm Scottish, these things happen).

Angus

On Feb 3, 10:26 pm, Tim McNamara  wrote:
> After much consideration, a lot of dissatisfaction and grousing, and  
> trying many, many tires on my 26" wheels, I found that Primo 26 x 1.0  
> and Pasela 26 x 1.25 at 100 psi are every bit as fast as any 700C  
> road tire I have used.  The Primos (spelled "PR1MO" on the sidewall)  
> are too hard to find and too fragile, getting lots of flats, casing  
> cuts and lasting only about 1500 miles on the rear.  I ride the  
> Paselas now.  Good tires and cheap- bonus!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Help with V brakes on Sam

[clyde canter]

Okay some pics.  Excuse my cluttered basement.
I'm not a whiz at this kind of thing but maybe this will work.
http://www5.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=1018276026/

Couldn't get Flikr to upload.

A brief rundown of the build.
60cm frame... Hset, BB, seatpost that came with it
Sugino XD2 crank...48, 36,34
MKS GR-9 pedals, Soma double-double clips VO straps
Deore LX rear der.
Old Deore front der.
Deore V brakes
Tektro levers
Alba bars
7 speed Shimano downtube shifters on bar end pods.
Sr 11-28 cassette (7 speed)
Sackville lil loafer on Mark's rack. ..The very bright object in a few
of the shots
Duluth pack bar tube.
Cateye puter.
Cork bar tape for grips

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Re: [RBW] Lightweight yet traditional and BOBish

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 09:54 -0800, usuk2007 wrote:
> FYI here is a traditional three bag set up using some ultralight
> principles that will allow indefinite, unsupported, civilized, three
> season touring at a weight of 22lbs. It can be installed on any bike,
> road, touring, mountain as it requires no eyelets and even if you
> don’t have saddlebag loops you can buy simple clamp on ones or use a
> quick release Bagman. If I loose a few pounds I’m thinking of  trying
> this setup on my DeRosa Neo Primato. That would be touring on an
> Italian steel bike with Japanese components and English bicycle bags.
> Call me crazy, but I just love the idea of all those weird
> juxtapositions.
> 
> http://wheelsofchance.org/2010/02/02/ultralight-setup/
> 

That setup looks a lot like the rig Henry Kingman used with the
Rambouillet prototype, written up in Riv Reader around 2002.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Help with V brakes on Sam

[Bruce]

http://www.bikepartsusa.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=01-90078&source=froogle

Very common on comfort bikes.




From: clyde canter 
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 6:06:13 PM
Su
I didn't really get an answer to my question as to what the heck a "mini" V 
brake is, 



  

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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Tim McNamara]

ROTFL!!

One of the reasons I do business with Jim is his sensitive nature.



On Feb 4, 2010, at 8:33 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:


Tim is sensitive about his small wheels. Whenever he visits me at the
shop, I try not to stare.

On Feb 4, 8:03 am, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:28 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:



On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
with 26" wheels.


I can't imagine why they'd care.  Can you even see that the  
wheels are

unusual?   I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think
a 58
cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particular to note
about the wheels other than some pretty fat looking tires.



What do they say?  And what do you say in return?



"Jeez, what's with the little wheels?"  "Aren't those wheels awfully
slow?"  "Small wheels have higher rolling resistance."  Etc.



I tell them "this wheel is 14 years old and I've never had to true
it."  Then I pass them going down the next hill.


Interesting.  I've been on several rides with people riding Bike
Fridays, and I've never heard anybody make any comments other than
discussions of travel bikes, touring, high airline fees, etc. and  
I ride

my 650B bikes on many rides and nobody's ever said anything about a
smaller wheel size to me.  However, I've ridden an AM-series  
Moulton on

some rides and yes, there sure were plenty of comments about that!


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Re: [RBW] Re: Help with V brakes on Sam

[clyde canter]

Thanks all.  I'll be sure to snap some shots for Jim's site first chance I
get.  The weather 'round here's been unusually nasty this winter. I'll take
my camera on the first ride, which hopefully won't be too far off.
I didn't really get an answer to my question as to what the heck a "mini" V
brake is,  but thanks for all the help anyways.
The set up is experimental, as I've never run Albatross bars before and I
may not like them.  If not I have a noodle in reserve once I score a shorter
stem.  I chose the V's over the cantis mainly because I had levers and if
they don't fly on the Sam I'll but them on a CX bike I have that is very
prone to fork chatter.  If the rapid grab-release of the canti wire theory
is correct the V's should fix "that" problem.  The cantis on that bike will
find a home on the Sam;


, Feb 4, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Brad Gantt  wrote:

> I have run v-brakes of one kind or another for a decade + on my MTBs.
> As stated above, the issue is generally improved with a bit more room
> between rim and pad (common on MTBs to allow for muck clearance) and
> the inevitable relaxing of the cables. I generally squeeze the tops of
> the brake arms (opposite from the pads) together and that gives me
> enough slack to disengage the noodle.
>
> Good luck... and post some pics.
>
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[RBW] Re: Help with V brakes on Sam

[Brad Gantt]

I have run v-brakes of one kind or another for a decade + on my MTBs.
As stated above, the issue is generally improved with a bit more room
between rim and pad (common on MTBs to allow for muck clearance) and
the inevitable relaxing of the cables. I generally squeeze the tops of
the brake arms (opposite from the pads) together and that gives me
enough slack to disengage the noodle.

Good luck... and post some pics.

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[RBW] Re: Help with V brakes on Sam

[RoadieRyan]

How about some pics of said newly built up SamH?

On Feb 4, 9:40 am, clyde canter  wrote:
> Thanks Jeremy.
> I believe the newer Tektro designs  have settings for both long and short
> pull brakes.
> This may or may not rule out their use with V type brakes.
> I did find a "mini" V brake listed as being long pull, so perhaps there's my
> answer.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Jeremy Till  wrote:
> > I ran V's for a number of years and often had similar issues with the
> > noodle being tight in the cradle if the cables were new and the pads
> > were set close to the rim.  Running with the adjusters in a bit is a
> > perfectly fine solution IMHO, you may also find that the problem goes
> > away once the cables stretch a bit.
>
> > In terms of levers, I don't know anything about mini-V's, but if the
> > levers say they work with caliper brakes that means that they're short-
> > pull (like a traditional canti) and won't work with normal V-brakes.
>
> > On Feb 4, 7:33 am, ccanter  wrote:
> > > Hello fellow Riv riders.
> > >  I finished building my new Sam HIllborne this weekend and am very
> > > pleased
> > > with how he turned out.  I put Albatross bars with barend shifters on
> > > him
> > > and MTB levers pulling V brakes (Shimano Deore).  I don't have much
> > > experience with V brakes, but I'm fairly certain I have them set up
> > > properly.  A break in the foul weather allowed me a brief test ride
> > > yesterday and they (brakes) worked flawlessly.  The only thing is I
> > > have
> > > to run the adjusters in a tad to be able to extract the noodle from
> > > it's
> > > cradle in order to remove the wheel. Is this normal?
>
> > > I googled (v brake levers with quick release) and found these:
>
> > >http://www.tektro.com/02products/10ql.php
>
> > > The tops mounts won't clamp on the Alba, but the bottom set will, but
> > > they
> > > are listed as working with mini-V, or calipers.  Is a mini-V different
> > > from a plain ole V?
>
> > > Any help greatly appreciated.
> > > Clyde Canter
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 12:49 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> Not to offend anybody, but my personal opinion is that TCO is a sign
> of weak character and moral failing.

Weak character on the part of the frame builder and designer, right?



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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Not to offend anybody, but my personal opinion is that TCO is a sign
of weak character and moral failing.

On Feb 4, 2:44 pm, Brad Gantt  wrote:
> That would be "affected" not "effected". :)

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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Brad Gantt]

That would be "affected" not "effected". :)

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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Brad Gantt]

"I've read many reports over the years of people falling from their
bikes because of TCO. It hasn't happened to me, but I wouldn't want
to
tell anyone that the thing that made them fall over was purely user
error and not an attribute of bicycle design."


This I think is the crux. TCO is an aspect of bicycle design as Grant
stated. In his opinion (and the majority of builders in my
experience), TCO is the lesser evil when considering the entire
bicycle's sizing, handling, aesthetics, performance, etc. If there was
some way to achieve all the rest and not have TCO in ALL frame sizes,
ALL wheel sizes, ALL tire sizes, and ALL shoe sizes, then ALL builders
would likely pursue this course. A bicycle frame is a closed system,
at least when we are talking about a traditional diamond frame, and as
such when you tweak one thing, everything else is effected. I realize
that most folks here know this but sometimes I think it is easy to
forget just how difficult it is to design bicycles that ride as well
as Rivendells do. I am astonished how my new Riv has literally
transformed the experience of riding for me. I put myself in Grant's
hands and I'm very glad I did.

Over and out.

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RE: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Frederick, Steve]

CycloFiend wrote, in part:
>I think GP's post was a new thread to comment about a previous thread.
>Nevertheless, I do want to remind folks that if they want to communicate
>with Rivendell on any subject, the best way if directly. (Or cc them on the
>email with a note explaining why.) This list is an "off-site" get together...

I'd like Grant to be able to pop in here and make a post occasionally just as a 
guy, a fellow rider.  I know it's tough to not read everything from him as 
gospel (which he hates, I understand) or the official Rivendell final word on 
something, but I think he was just weighing in with his own feelings about TCO. 
 (and I do recognize that his word often is the final one on all things 
Rivendell so that there's a bit of a catch 22)  

I (speaking just as a guy and fellow rider) prefer little or no TCO but can 
live with it if need be--I wouldn't trade my Rambouillet for anything, TCO and 
all, even though my Saluki has no TCO at all...which speaks volumes I think for 
the advantages of designing smaller frames around smaller wheels...

Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[james black]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:00, Brad Gantt  wrote:
> I will admit that I simply do not understand the sentiment that
> TCO is an "offense". I believe that word choice is inflammatory and
> honestly insulting to the designers and builders of these bicycles. I
> also admit that I cannot understand the heated reaction to Grant's
> post. As always, we have options when we purchase bicycles. If a
> particular builder is committing an "offense" by designing bicycles
> the way they believe best, perhaps we should look elsewhere.

Sorry, I used the word "offense" and didn't mean it to be inflammatory
- I mean it in the same sense that I would use the word "offensive" to
describe a lingering bad odor in a room I just entered. I consider TCO
an annoyance, and fairly mild, but it would annoy me on a continuing
basis if I had to deal with it.

And I agree, all customers should consider how important TCO is to
them when selecting a bike. That's why I wanted this perspective given
proper consideration by Grant and others in the business of designing
bikes for customers!

I've read many reports over the years of people falling from their
bikes because of TCO. It hasn't happened to me, but I wouldn't want to
tell anyone that the thing that made them fall over was purely user
error and not an attribute of bicycle design.

Further, I submit that the heated reaction you perceive was
essentially begged for by Grant's comment, and he knew it was coming,
and we gave it to him. And he probably did regret it in the morning,
as he said he would. And I think I've now said all I have to say on
this stimulating topic.

Thanks,

James Black

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[CycloFiend]

on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Rene at valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
> Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
> sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
> Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
> what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be "a problem"
> even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
> bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
> RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
> propose it here.

I think GP's post was a new thread to comment about a previous thread.
Nevertheless, I do want to remind folks that if they want to communicate
with Rivendell on any subject, the best way if directly. (Or cc them on the
email with a note explaining why.) This list is an "off-site" get together.

Back on this subject, to paraphrase and engage in conjecture, I think Rene's
post above gets at the crux of the issue - the significant number of
variables in what seems a simple question.

A frame that has no TCO for a rider with size 10 feet may cause problems if
you are a size 12.  If I use a clip-in pedal system, with cleats under the
ball of my feet, that's going to be different than if I use platforms and
pedal with a mid-foot-centered position.  Large soled shoes?  Fitted shoes?
Do I make low course corrections more with body english or tiller input?

Clearly, for those folks to whom this is an issue, there must be a way to
quantify it. 

You could probably measure the BB to front axle distance, and see if there
was a consistency in what size caused the issue. The variables would be
wheel size, tire size, fender standoff (gap from tire), fender thickness,
shoe size (literally, the materal thickness at the toe), foot position with
relation to pedal spindle (i.e. how much "meat" is in front of the spindle,
though you can really just combine those two variables into one), and crank
length. But, all of those would run on the basic dimension of bb to front
axle. 

So, I get all charged up and measure this out on the Quickbeam, a 58 cm
frame which seems to have about a 610 mm bb-front axle measurement. The
distance from the axle to the outside of the fender is 362 mm, the cranks
are 170 mm and the "foot protrusion" is 100 mm. Which would mean that the
overlap is ~22 mm. 

Except it isn't. I don't have any issues on that bike.

And then it dawns on me that the whole thing has a 2nd dimension which
involves (a) the arc of the front wheel and (b) the offset of foot position
from the centerline of the bike (determined by bb spindle length, crank
"tread" width, length of pedal spindles, and the inboard/outboard position
of the foot on the pedal itself.)

So, if I pedal with toes pointed in, using a narrow Q crankset on the
shortest possible bb spindle, it's going to be different than toes out, wide
cranks and longer bb spindle.

And that, my friends, gets quickly beyond any math I can quickly do in my
head on a lunch break.

Dang.

- Jim "humbled by numbers once again..."


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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Brad Gantt]

Email and forum posts are a poor substitute for actual communication.
Intent, tone, etc. is often lost in translation. If I insulted
anybody, I apologize. I simply felt as though this string had
degenerated beyond the point of reason and perspective had been lost.
I make no judgement as to the importance (or not) of TCO. My comments
were directed at the nature of the "discussion" following Grant's
post. I will admit that I simply do not understand the sentiment that
TCO is an "offense". I believe that word choice is inflammatory and
honestly insulting to the designers and builders of these bicycles. I
also admit that I cannot understand the heated reaction to Grant's
post. As always, we have options when we purchase bicycles. If a
particular builder is committing an "offense" by designing bicycles
the way they believe best, perhaps we should look elsewhere.

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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[bfd]

On Feb 3, 4:17 pm, Tim McNamara  wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:54 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> For some reason that isn't completely obvious, a lot of people have a
> >> reflexive distaste for smaller wheels. The 56 Atlantis was always a
> >> much harder sell than a 58 Atlantis, which I attribute to a  
> >> widespread
> >> prejudice against smaller wheels. Over on the Long Haul Trucker  
> >> forum,
> >> there are plenty of folks who do not understand (to the point of  
> >> being
> >> angry about it) why Surly would offer the bigger LHT frames designed
> >> around 26" wheels. I'll be curious to see how the small-wheel  
> >> Truckers
> >> sell, and if there's really sizable group clamoring for these.
>
> > Did not realize people were so hostile to 26".  I will soon receive a
> > custom that is built around 26" wheels - at just under 6', I guess you
> > could call my bikes either larger or average.  I did not spec 26"
> > because of some TCO concern.  Rather, I wanted to have a bike that
> > could use the biggest Big Apples without putting my head up in sub-
> > space.
>
> I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder  
> with 26" wheels.
>
Ha, it could be worst, can you imagine what people would say if you
were riding 650B wheels? The HorrorThe Horror...

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[james black]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:42, james black  wrote:
> This is directed to Brad and Patrick: is there really a need to be so
> condescending? You don't mind TCO, fine. Please don't insult those of
> us who do.

And by the way - I joined in this discussion not because it gives me
pleasure to fight with Grant Petersen, but because I think it's
important for him and others to be aware of the perspective of people
like myself (prospective customers).

James Black

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[james black]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:34, Brad Gantt  wrote:
> This has gotten ridiculous. Grant's post ended with an expression of
> concern that he shouldn't have said anything. I imagine it might be a
> bit before he does again and I for one find that unfortunate.
> TCO is an "offense"? Honestly.

This is directed to Brad and Patrick: is there really a need to be so
condescending? You don't mind TCO, fine. Please don't insult those of
us who do.

James Black

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[RBW] FS VO Croissant Bag

[RoadieRyan]

I really like the look of this bag but the way it hangs interferes
with my rear rack set up so I am going to sell it and go with a mini
tail pack.  It got used for about 3 months so its much "like new"
condition wiht a few spots of dust here and some buckle lines on the
straps.  Thought I would offer it to the list before going the CL
route.

New they are $55 I am asking $40 and I will cover ground shipping in
the lower 48


You can see pictures at http://tinyurl.com/yjc9o26  or check it out at
http://www.velo-orange.com/

if interested contact me off list.  .Thanks

rya...@hotmail.com

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[RBW] Re: WTB: 58cm atlantis frameset

[neurodrum]

still looking for a 58cm Atlantis frame or even complete..

i was hoping to get a used one so i could save my new-bike funds for a
Hunq, but i may be forced to buy a new Atlantis if nobody has one to
pass on.

i just sold my XO-1 (thanks Mitch!) so i have cash in hand for a
frame.
contact me if you are thinking about selling one :)

cheers,
andrew-who-is-without-a-road-bike-currently

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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Brad Gantt]

This has gotten ridiculous. Grant's post ended with an expression of
concern that he shouldn't have said anything. I imagine it might be a
bit before he does again and I for one find that unfortunate.

TCO is an "offense"? Honestly.

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Re: [RBW] Re: 26 inch wheels

[Joe Bunik]

Hey 559-lovers,

I have a wheelset for my stillborn 559-hotrod project that I'd be
happy to find a new home for... I'll even throw in some like-new Primo
26x1 tires/tubes! :-) They spin nice...

Front:
Shimano XTR HB-M900 32hole
laced to
Campagnolo Atek rim

Rear:
Suntour XC Pro 32 hole (greaseguard), 7sp cassette
laced to
Campagnolo Atek rim

$150?+ship? Local pick-up/delivery preferred, as in "I can meet you
anywhere on the BART system..."

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Robert F. Harrison]

Actually I think this round of TCO discussion was started off with this
innocuous little query...

Subject: TCO on an Atlantis?
Morning query:  With BIG 50mm or larger tires on a 700c Atlantis, are
there TCO issues?
Enjoy a Sunday ride!
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA


Grant did start this particular thread in response to that thread which also
diverged into a thread about tire width side of things. So while he may have
started the thread, he did not start the topic, he was responding to it,
albeit using a different subject line.

Apparently I don't have anything better to do today than sort through old
email. :-)

And, if one really wanted to go back, I thinking one could claim this is all
just an extension of the 12/1/2007 (!) topic:

Not The Last Word on TCO ( http://goo.gl/SaGU )



One my QB (700c/35mm/fendered/big feet/no clips) I did experience a wee bit
of TCO (no consequences) the first day I rode it and, having noted it, have
never had a problem since then. At least on my bike it isn't particularly
hard to avoid, even at low speed.

Aloha! Bob



On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Rene Valbuena 
wrote:
>
> I do have a life. that's why i don't reply to any all topics here;-) if
grant did not start the thread, who did? isn't it if your name is on top of
the topic or the first one, it is considered that you started the topic? --
rene
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: PATRICK MOORE
> Sent: Feb 4, 2010 12:13 PM
> To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
>
> Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.
>
> But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move
on to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't like
his haircut. Anyone else care to chime in?
>
> Christ! Let's all get ourselves lives!
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Rene  wrote:
>>
>> TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
>> Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
>> sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
>> Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
>> what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be "a problem"
>> even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
>> bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
>> RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
>> propose it here.
>>
>> -- Rene
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2:12 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:
>> > Anne and James:
>> >
>> > I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less
>> > sensitive to GP's choice of words.
>> >
>> > On Feb 3, 1:05 pm, Anne Paulson  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews 
wrote:
>> > > >> Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers
like
>> > > >> myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant),
and
>> > > >> deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or
acknowledging
>> > > >> that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated.
>> >
>> > > > Isn't that what Grant says in his post?
>> >
>> > > He said: "TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in
>> > > theoretics, but not in practice."
>> >
>> > > For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the
>> > > desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design
considerations.
>> > > I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an
>> > > actual problem for me.
>> >
>> > > --
>> > > -- Anne Paulson
>> >
>> > > He who wills the ends wills the means- Hide quoted text -
>> >
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Patrick Moore
> Albuquerque, NM
> For professional resumes, contact
> Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
> (505) 227-0523
>
>
>
> --
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--
Robert Harrison
rfharri...@gmail.com
statrixblog.stat

[RBW] Lightweight yet traditional and BOBish

[usuk2007]

FYI here is a traditional three bag set up using some ultralight
principles that will allow indefinite, unsupported, civilized, three
season touring at a weight of 22lbs. It can be installed on any bike,
road, touring, mountain as it requires no eyelets and even if you
don’t have saddlebag loops you can buy simple clamp on ones or use a
quick release Bagman. If I loose a few pounds I’m thinking of  trying
this setup on my DeRosa Neo Primato. That would be touring on an
Italian steel bike with Japanese components and English bicycle bags.
Call me crazy, but I just love the idea of all those weird
juxtapositions.

http://wheelsofchance.org/2010/02/02/ultralight-setup/

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Re: [RBW] Re: Help with V brakes on Sam

[clyde canter]

Thanks Jeremy.
I believe the newer Tektro designs  have settings for both long and short
pull brakes.
This may or may not rule out their use with V type brakes.
I did find a "mini" V brake listed as being long pull, so perhaps there's my
answer.


On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Jeremy Till  wrote:

> I ran V's for a number of years and often had similar issues with the
> noodle being tight in the cradle if the cables were new and the pads
> were set close to the rim.  Running with the adjusters in a bit is a
> perfectly fine solution IMHO, you may also find that the problem goes
> away once the cables stretch a bit.
>
> In terms of levers, I don't know anything about mini-V's, but if the
> levers say they work with caliper brakes that means that they're short-
> pull (like a traditional canti) and won't work with normal V-brakes.
>
> On Feb 4, 7:33 am, ccanter  wrote:
> > Hello fellow Riv riders.
> >  I finished building my new Sam HIllborne this weekend and am very
> > pleased
> > with how he turned out.  I put Albatross bars with barend shifters on
> > him
> > and MTB levers pulling V brakes (Shimano Deore).  I don't have much
> > experience with V brakes, but I'm fairly certain I have them set up
> > properly.  A break in the foul weather allowed me a brief test ride
> > yesterday and they (brakes) worked flawlessly.  The only thing is I
> > have
> > to run the adjusters in a tad to be able to extract the noodle from
> > it's
> > cradle in order to remove the wheel. Is this normal?
> >
> > I googled (v brake levers with quick release) and found these:
> >
> > http://www.tektro.com/02products/10ql.php
> >
> > The tops mounts won't clamp on the Alba, but the bottom set will, but
> > they
> > are listed as working with mini-V, or calipers.  Is a mini-V different
> > from a plain ole V?
> >
> > Any help greatly appreciated.
> > Clyde Canter
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Rene Valbuena]

I do have a life. that's why i don't reply to any all topics here;-) if grant did not start the thread, who did? isn't it if your name is on top of the topic or the first one, it is considered that you started the topic? -- rene
-Original Message- From: PATRICK MOORE Sent: Feb 4, 2010 12:13 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general.. Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move on to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't like his haircut. Anyone else care to chime in? Christ! Let's all get ourselves lives!
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Rene  wrote:
TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all theRivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me lesssensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hopeRivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating atwhat size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be "a problem"even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is abigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly toRBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I canpropose it here.-- ReneOn Feb 3, 2:12 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:> Anne and James:>> I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less> sensitive to GP's choice of words.>> On Feb 3, 1:05 pm, Anne Paulson  wrote: > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews  wrote:> > >> Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like> > >> myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and> > >> deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging> > >> that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated.>> > > Isn't that what Grant says in his post?>> > He said: "TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in> > theoretics, but not in practice.">> > For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the> > desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design considerations.> > I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an> > actual problem for me.>> > --> > -- Anne Paulson>> > He who wills the ends wills the means- Hide quoted text ->> - Show quoted text ---You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.-- Patrick MooreAlbuquerque, NMFor professional resumes, contactPatrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com(505) 227-0523
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.





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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[PATRICK MOORE]

Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.

But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move on
to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't like
his haircut. Anyone else care to chime in?

Christ! Let's all get ourselves lives!

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Rene  wrote:

> TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
> Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
> sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
> Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
> what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be "a problem"
> even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
> bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
> RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
> propose it here.
>
> -- Rene
>
> On Feb 3, 2:12 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:
> > Anne and James:
> >
> > I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less
> > sensitive to GP's choice of words.
> >
> > On Feb 3, 1:05 pm, Anne Paulson  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews 
> wrote:
> > > >> Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
> > > >> myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and
> > > >> deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging
> > > >> that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated.
> >
> > > > Isn't that what Grant says in his post?
> >
> > > He said: "TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in
> > > theoretics, but not in practice."
> >
> > > For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the
> > > desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design considerations.
> > > I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an
> > > actual problem for me.
> >
> > > --
> > > -- Anne Paulson
> >
> > > He who wills the ends wills the means- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> .
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>
>


-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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[RBW] Re: Help with V brakes on Sam

[Jeremy Till]

I ran V's for a number of years and often had similar issues with the
noodle being tight in the cradle if the cables were new and the pads
were set close to the rim.  Running with the adjusters in a bit is a
perfectly fine solution IMHO, you may also find that the problem goes
away once the cables stretch a bit.

In terms of levers, I don't know anything about mini-V's, but if the
levers say they work with caliper brakes that means that they're short-
pull (like a traditional canti) and won't work with normal V-brakes.

On Feb 4, 7:33 am, ccanter  wrote:
> Hello fellow Riv riders.
>  I finished building my new Sam HIllborne this weekend and am very
> pleased
> with how he turned out.  I put Albatross bars with barend shifters on
> him
> and MTB levers pulling V brakes (Shimano Deore).  I don't have much
> experience with V brakes, but I'm fairly certain I have them set up
> properly.  A break in the foul weather allowed me a brief test ride
> yesterday and they (brakes) worked flawlessly.  The only thing is I
> have
> to run the adjusters in a tad to be able to extract the noodle from
> it's
> cradle in order to remove the wheel. Is this normal?
>
> I googled (v brake levers with quick release) and found these:
>
> http://www.tektro.com/02products/10ql.php
>
> The tops mounts won't clamp on the Alba, but the bottom set will, but
> they
> are listed as working with mini-V, or calipers.  Is a mini-V different
> from a plain ole V?
>
> Any help greatly appreciated.
> Clyde Canter

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RE: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Frederick, Steve]

There's a couple on my flick'r page--it lost a lot of weight when I took off 
the Nexus IG/drum brake hubbed wheel!
 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40738...@n08/3763276193/
 
Those are cut down Nitto Promenade bars--pretty nice Scorcher style setup!  I 
have different bars on there now but no pics of the current setup...
 
Steve

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of PATRICK MOORE
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:09 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..




On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Frederick, Steve < frede...@mail.lib.msu.edu> 
wrote:

my 26" Bianchi Milano fixed gear conversion commuter"

May we see photos?




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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Rene]

TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be "a problem"
even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
propose it here.

-- Rene

On Feb 3, 2:12 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:
> Anne and James:
>
> I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less
> sensitive to GP's choice of words.
>
> On Feb 3, 1:05 pm, Anne Paulson  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews  wrote:
> > >> Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
> > >> myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and
> > >> deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging
> > >> that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated.
>
> > > Isn't that what Grant says in his post?
>
> > He said: "TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in
> > theoretics, but not in practice."
>
> > For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the
> > desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design considerations.
> > I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an
> > actual problem for me.
>
> > --
> > -- Anne Paulson
>
> > He who wills the ends wills the means- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[PATRICK MOORE]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Frederick, Steve
wrote:

my 26" Bianchi Milano fixed gear conversion commuter"

May we see photos?

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[RBW] Re: Carradice Nelson LF

[b hamon]

Bag is sold, thanks for your interest.

http://bikelovejones.livejournal.com

http://veloquent.blogspot.com


  

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Re: [RBW] Re: 26 inch wheels

[PATRICK MOORE]

Thanks. I might have bought a pair if I didn't have GPs and Turbos stashed.

And I feel sorry for myself when, as on the last two or three days, we get a
bit of snow that doesn't stick.

Calhoun looks very interesting -- too  bad I can't think of anything to buy
right now, tho' the Ortlieb bike shopping pannier is tempting.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Tim McNamara  wrote:

>
> On Feb 4, 2010, at 12:37 AM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>
>  Who makes the Primo? -- Not that it really matters, practically, as I have
>> all of Ryan Watson's 26X1 Turbos in my stash.
>>
>
> Primo is their own brand, probably manufactured by Cheng Shin if that
> matters.  Their Website is spectacularly non-informative:
>
> http://www.primobmx.com/
>
> Locally Calhoun Cycle, a recumbent and folder specialist, is the only shop
> that seems to stock Primo tires:
>
> http://www.calhouncycle.com/
>
> Yes, that's what my world looks like these days.  :-P  Someday I will live
> somewhere warm year-round (although who knows, with global warming I might
> get that staying put).
>
> Their tire page with several Primo tires:
>
> http://www.calhouncycle.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=59
>
>  The Pasela certainly is light at 240 gr for the kevlar beaded model --
>> only 40-50 gr more than the skinnies -- but IME -- and I used it long --
>>  it's not as easy rolling as the 1" Turbo or 1" Conti GP and in my use they
>> were very flat prone -- more so than the Turbos and GPs, make of that what
>> you will. AND they are very sensitive to pressure: at 90 psi they are like
>> rocks (I'm 170) and at 70 they sag -- tho' I use very narrow rims, 19-20 mm
>> wide.
>>
>
> At 215-220 lbs   :-((granted I am 6'4" but jeez, I feel like a whale
> these days) I run them at 100 psi and find then cushy.
>
>  The Turbos and the GPs get hardly more flats, if any more at all, than the
>> 30 mm and much heavier 622 IRC tandems on the Motobecane.
>>
>> I just got 1,700 out of a rear Turbo (on the commuter, where I carry loads
>> a lot) and it still wasn't flatting tho' the tread was very thin; I replaced
>> it pro-actively; and I've gotten over 3,000 out of a *rear* 571 GP, on the
>> gofast.
>>
>> My question is: why do I get all my flats on the front, by a factor of at
>> least 3 to 1?
>>
>
> I have the opposite result by a much more skewed margin- probably 25:1 in
> favor of the rear getting the flat.  The last front tire flat I can remember
> was on a brevet in 2008, maybe 2007.
>
>  Again: gimme a top quality 559 28. (If I say it enough times maybe someone
>> will do it.)
>>
>
> Wazzat, 26 x 1.125?  Yup, you've got either 26 x 1.0 or 26 x 1.25 to choose
> from.  I think you have to hit up recumbent makers with that idea, since
> they tend to be the companies looking at high performance 26" tires for the
> road.  Most bike makers think of 26" as a mountain bike size.
>
> --
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>


-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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[RBW] Help with V brakes on Sam

[ccanter]

Hello fellow Riv riders.
 I finished building my new Sam HIllborne this weekend and am very
pleased
with how he turned out.  I put Albatross bars with barend shifters on
him
and MTB levers pulling V brakes (Shimano Deore).  I don't have much
experience with V brakes, but I'm fairly certain I have them set up
properly.  A break in the foul weather allowed me a brief test ride
yesterday and they (brakes) worked flawlessly.  The only thing is I
have
to run the adjusters in a tad to be able to extract the noodle from
it's
cradle in order to remove the wheel. Is this normal?

I googled (v brake levers with quick release) and found these:

http://www.tektro.com/02products/10ql.php

The tops mounts won't clamp on the Alba, but the bottom set will, but
they
are listed as working with mini-V, or calipers.  Is a mini-V different
from a plain ole V?

Any help greatly appreciated.
Clyde Canter

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[RBW] Re: 26 inch wheels

[Tim McNamara]

On Feb 4, 2010, at 12:37 AM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:

Who makes the Primo? -- Not that it really matters, practically, as  
I have all of Ryan Watson's 26X1 Turbos in my stash.


Primo is their own brand, probably manufactured by Cheng Shin if that  
matters.  Their Website is spectacularly non-informative:


http://www.primobmx.com/

Locally Calhoun Cycle, a recumbent and folder specialist, is the only  
shop that seems to stock Primo tires:


http://www.calhouncycle.com/

Yes, that's what my world looks like these days.  :-P  Someday I will  
live somewhere warm year-round (although who knows, with global  
warming I might get that staying put).


Their tire page with several Primo tires:

http://www.calhouncycle.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp? 
idCategory=59


The Pasela certainly is light at 240 gr for the kevlar beaded model  
-- only 40-50 gr more than the skinnies -- but IME -- and I used it  
long --  it's not as easy rolling as the 1" Turbo or 1" Conti GP  
and in my use they were very flat prone -- more so than the Turbos  
and GPs, make of that what you will. AND they are very sensitive to  
pressure: at 90 psi they are like rocks (I'm 170) and at 70 they  
sag -- tho' I use very narrow rims, 19-20 mm wide.


At 215-220 lbs   :-((granted I am 6'4" but jeez, I feel like a  
whale these days) I run them at 100 psi and find then cushy.


The Turbos and the GPs get hardly more flats, if any more at all,  
than the 30 mm and much heavier 622 IRC tandems on the Motobecane.


I just got 1,700 out of a rear Turbo (on the commuter, where I  
carry loads a lot) and it still wasn't flatting tho' the tread was  
very thin; I replaced it pro-actively; and I've gotten over 3,000  
out of a *rear* 571 GP, on the gofast.


My question is: why do I get all my flats on the front, by a factor  
of at least 3 to 1?


I have the opposite result by a much more skewed margin- probably  
25:1 in favor of the rear getting the flat.  The last front tire flat  
I can remember was on a brevet in 2008, maybe 2007.


Again: gimme a top quality 559 28. (If I say it enough times maybe  
someone will do it.)


Wazzat, 26 x 1.125?  Yup, you've got either 26 x 1.0 or 26 x 1.25 to  
choose from.  I think you have to hit up recumbent makers with that  
idea, since they tend to be the companies looking at high performance  
26" tires for the road.  Most bike makers think of 26" as a mountain  
bike size.


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RE: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Frederick, Steve]

>>> On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
>
 I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
 with 26" wheels.



I've only had a couple of comments about my 26"-wheeled XO-1.  One fellow 
commented on the long wheelbase, mistaking the roomy clearance for fat tires 
for axle to axle stretch, I think.  Another comment when I was jamming on a 
club ride that I was "pretty fast on that thing."  It is a pretty lively bike 
with 1.5" Paselas!  I''ve never felt it was notably slow due to the small 
wheels, and they sure accelerate quick.  (also noted on my 26" Bianchi Milano 
fixed gear conversion commuter)

No one's ever noticed the wheelsize on my 650b Saluki--testament to the 
proportional appearance of 650bX38 wheels/tires on a 54cm frame, I think.  I 
have gotten a couple of comments on the "fancy," bags on my Saluki and other 
Rivs, though.  B-)

Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI

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[RBW] Nigel Smythe bag claimed.

[PATRICK MOORE]

-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Tim McNamara]

On Feb 4, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Steve Palincsar wrote:


On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:28 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:


On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:



I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
with 26" wheels.



I can't imagine why they'd care.  Can you even see that the  
wheels are

unusual?   I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think
a 58
cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particular to note
about the wheels other than some pretty fat looking tires.

What do they say?  And what do you say in return?


"Jeez, what's with the little wheels?"  "Aren't those wheels awfully
slow?"  "Small wheels have higher rolling resistance."  Etc.

I tell them "this wheel is 14 years old and I've never had to true
it."  Then I pass them going down the next hill.


Interesting.  I've been on several rides with people riding Bike
Fridays, and I've never heard anybody make any comments other than
discussions of travel bikes, touring, high airline fees, etc. and I  
ride

my 650B bikes on many rides and nobody's ever said anything about a
smaller wheel size to me.  However, I've ridden an AM-series  
Moulton on

some rides and yes, there sure were plenty of comments about that!


Another interesting bit is that I only get comments if the fenders  
are off the A/R; with fenders on, no one seems to notice the smaller  
wheels.  And another factor is that I used to ride the A/R on racing  
club rides.  Most of the group rides I go on now are with people who  
get the Rivendell thing (and are often riding various Riv products  
themselves) so I don't get specious comments from them!


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[RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Tim is sensitive about his small wheels. Whenever he visits me at the
shop, I try not to stare.

On Feb 4, 8:03 am, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:28 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > >> I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
> > >> with 26" wheels.
>
> > > I can't imagine why they'd care.  Can you even see that the wheels are
> > > unusual?   I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think  
> > > a 58
> > > cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particular to note
> > > about the wheels other than some pretty fat looking tires.
>
> > > What do they say?  And what do you say in return?
>
> > "Jeez, what's with the little wheels?"  "Aren't those wheels awfully  
> > slow?"  "Small wheels have higher rolling resistance."  Etc.
>
> > I tell them "this wheel is 14 years old and I've never had to true  
> > it."  Then I pass them going down the next hill.
>
> Interesting.  I've been on several rides with people riding Bike
> Fridays, and I've never heard anybody make any comments other than
> discussions of travel bikes, touring, high airline fees, etc. and I ride
> my 650B bikes on many rides and nobody's ever said anything about a
> smaller wheel size to me.  However, I've ridden an AM-series Moulton on
> some rides and yes, there sure were plenty of comments about that!

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:28 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

> >> I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
> >> with 26" wheels.
> >>
> >
> > I can't imagine why they'd care.  Can you even see that the wheels are
> > unusual?   I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think  
> > a 58
> > cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particular to note
> > about the wheels other than some pretty fat looking tires.
> >
> > What do they say?  And what do you say in return?
> 
> "Jeez, what's with the little wheels?"  "Aren't those wheels awfully  
> slow?"  "Small wheels have higher rolling resistance."  Etc.
> 
> I tell them "this wheel is 14 years old and I've never had to true  
> it."  Then I pass them going down the next hill.
> 

Interesting.  I've been on several rides with people riding Bike
Fridays, and I've never heard anybody make any comments other than
discussions of travel bikes, touring, high airline fees, etc. and I ride
my 650B bikes on many rides and nobody's ever said anything about a
smaller wheel size to me.  However, I've ridden an AM-series Moulton on
some rides and yes, there sure were plenty of comments about that!



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