date:20120605

Minh,

Speaking for myself, I went with Grant's complete recommendation by
choosing the Bullmoose version. I can only say that on my 58 Hunqapillar it
puts the ends of the bars in a perfect place as it allows me to be fully
upright and relaxed. I believe they are meant to be closer to you than the
ends of the Albatross on which I could never get comfortable in the same
position as my hands would always hurt. I also believe there is much more
than just that, what makes those bars so wonderful. Angles, shapes, length
of straight sections, rise, etc.

You'll want to try them... ;-)

René

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[RBW] Re: Price Reduced - FS: 58 Blue Rambouillet, Now $1300 Shipped

2012-06-05 Thread Dick Denning

Tim:

Just wondering if you still have your Rambouillet for sale. I have a
riding buddy that might
be interested in it. Reply off list if you would. Thanks,

Dick

On Friday, May 25, 2012 8:05:15 AM UTC-4, tim whalen colorado springs wrote:

Some nibbles but no bites so I've cut the price to $1300. Thanks for
looking, Tim

Hi all, after normal bike selling indecision and second guessing am
putting this Rambouillet up for sale.

I bought this from the original owner, another list member, but have ended
up only riding my Roadeo. I will email you detailed pics if you are
interested. Professionally packing and shipping included in the price.

Mostly Ultegra build with details listed below. Many new parts as noted,
rest have normal wear but are fully functional and good for many more
miles.

Ultegra triple crank, 172.5 mm, 48, 42, 28, with Shimano middle ring and
unknown but good inner and outer chainrings
Ultegra front and rear Derailleurs
Shimano HG 27-12 9 speed cassette
Suntour bar end shifters
Wheels are Ultegra hubs with 32 spoke Open Pro rims and new Jack Brown
Green tires - true and fast, I love them
Nitto 65 seatpost
Nitto Noodles, 46 cm
Nitto Technomic 5 cm stem
Shimano brake levers with Tektro cross levers
New SR Respiro saddle
New SKS fenders
MKS GR9 pedals and half toe clips
New bar tape with gel pads underneath
I don't know what kind the brakes are, seems to me they are an IRD
predecessor I got from Rivendell some years back. They work great.
Original Harris Cyclery decal.

Paint is very good with a couple of minor chips/scratches and a small
chain suck scrape that I can see. The one flaw this bike has is a shallow
dimple in the right side of the top tube. It came to the original owner
that way and is a minor cosmetic flaw with no impact on the integrity of
the tube. Detailed close ups available.

Great riding highly versatile bike, as you already know.

Tim
Colorado Springs

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Re: [RBW] Any San Diego Bike Shop Recommendations?

2012-06-05 Thread Kerry Kunsman

I'll second Mission Hills Bike Shop (141 W. Washington St, San Diego, 
CA 92103) and Adams Avenue (2606 Adams Avenue, San Diego, CA 
92116).  Although they both are located in central San Diego they are 
worth a visit.


For a shop closer to La Jolla he might stop by a new shop, Cycle 
Quest, at 10920 Roselle St, Ste 103, San Diego, CA 92121.  This is in 
the small shopping center directly behind the Sorrento Valley Train 
station on Roselle Street.  Definitely commuter/tourist oriented.


Kerry Kunsman
San Diego, CA


At 08:52 AM 6/4/2012, Jeff Feldstein wrote:
My brother lives in San Diego and is interested in getting into 
cycling, mostly for commuting/exercise/urban riding. I'm wondering 
if anybody can point me to a decent shop near La Jolla that isn't so 
racing-bike oriented.


Thanks,
Jeff


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[RBW] Re: Riv Rally Midwest

2012-06-05 Thread Shifty

Well that was so fun it was ridiculous. Great photos Ted and Eric, even 
better route - many thanks Jim Thill. Oh, and my Hilsen thanks you too, it 
needed the gravel therapy. Of course, I was punished for leaving the group 
at Stockholm with 25 miles of headwind back to Red Wing. At least the dozen 
or so Harleys that passed me kept to to a dull roar. 

Great to meet all you guys whose posts I've been reading here. Can't wait 
do it again, Sean

On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:12:50 PM UTC-5, RonaTD wrote:

 The weather gods smiled upon Jim Thill's excellent organization of the Riv 
 Rally Midwest. Unfortunately, I had to leave at the end of Saturday. I'm 
 sure they're enjoying another epic, scenic tour today. 

 Some photos from Grant's appearance at Hiawatha, the ride from Minneapolis 
 to Red Wing on Friday, and the ride from Red Wing to Wabasha on Saturday. 
 Outstanding riding and company. Thanks, Jim. That was fantastic! 

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/7627416@N06/sets/72157630029377718/ 

 Ted Durant 
 Milwaukee, WI, USA


On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:12:50 PM UTC-5, RonaTD wrote:

 The weather gods smiled upon Jim Thill's excellent organization of the Riv 
 Rally Midwest. Unfortunately, I had to leave at the end of Saturday. I'm 
 sure they're enjoying another epic, scenic tour today. 

 Some photos from Grant's appearance at Hiawatha, the ride from Minneapolis 
 to Red Wing on Friday, and the ride from Red Wing to Wabasha on Saturday. 
 Outstanding riding and company. Thanks, Jim. That was fantastic! 

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/7627416@N06/sets/72157630029377718/ 

 Ted Durant 
 Milwaukee, WI, USA


On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:12:50 PM UTC-5, RonaTD wrote:

 The weather gods smiled upon Jim Thill's excellent organization of the Riv 
 Rally Midwest. Unfortunately, I had to leave at the end of Saturday. I'm 
 sure they're enjoying another epic, scenic tour today. 

 Some photos from Grant's appearance at Hiawatha, the ride from Minneapolis 
 to Red Wing on Friday, and the ride from Red Wing to Wabasha on Saturday. 
 Outstanding riding and company. Thanks, Jim. That was fantastic! 

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/7627416@N06/sets/72157630029377718/ 

 Ted Durant 
 Milwaukee, WI, USA


On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:12:50 PM UTC-5, RonaTD wrote:

 The weather gods smiled upon Jim Thill's excellent organization of the Riv 
 Rally Midwest. Unfortunately, I had to leave at the end of Saturday. I'm 
 sure they're enjoying another epic, scenic tour today. 

 Some photos from Grant's appearance at Hiawatha, the ride from Minneapolis 
 to Red Wing on Friday, and the ride from Red Wing to Wabasha on Saturday. 
 Outstanding riding and company. Thanks, Jim. That was fantastic! 

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/7627416@N06/sets/72157630029377718/ 

 Ted Durant 
 Milwaukee, WI, USA


On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:12:50 PM UTC-5, RonaTD wrote:

 The weather gods smiled upon Jim Thill's excellent organization of the Riv 
 Rally Midwest. Unfortunately, I had to leave at the end of Saturday. I'm 
 sure they're enjoying another epic, scenic tour today. 

 Some photos from Grant's appearance at Hiawatha, the ride from Minneapolis 
 to Red Wing on Friday, and the ride from Red Wing to Wabasha on Saturday. 
 Outstanding riding and company. Thanks, Jim. That was fantastic! 

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/7627416@N06/sets/72157630029377718/ 

 Ted Durant 
 Milwaukee, WI, USA

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Re: [RBW] Bosco Bars

BTW, I use downtube shifters now and agree that barend shifters might not
be so advisable on the Bosco bars. As they are, I get no interferences on
tight turns unless I'm straddling the top tube and standing on my feet and
need to turn the handlebars sharply. Then again, I'm pretty hefty.

René

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012, René Sterental wrote:

 Minh,

 Speaking for myself, I went with Grant's complete recommendation by
 choosing the Bullmoose version. I can only say that on my 58 Hunqapillar it
 puts the ends of the bars in a perfect place as it allows me to be fully
 upright and relaxed. I believe they are meant to be closer to you than the
 ends of the Albatross on which I could never get comfortable in the same
 position as my hands would always hurt. I also believe there is much more
 than just that, what makes those bars so wonderful. Angles, shapes, length
 of straight sections, rise, etc.

 You'll want to try them... ;-)

 René


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Re: [RBW] Bullmoose Bosco bar?

I'll do that this weekend or earlier. Thanks for your comments.

René

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012, Rocky B wrote:

 It was actually the pictures of your Hunqapillar with the Boscos that
 made me say wow! those bars are kinda sweet-looking!

 I hope you post pictures of your Betty with the Boscos.  I'm thinking
 about getting a pair for my wife's mixte.

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[RBW] FWs FS

2012-06-05 Thread PATRICK MOORE

I have 11 good condition 14-28 five speeders @14 shipped each and five
ditto 14-32 five speeders at $20 shipped each. Plus one 13-30 six
speed, ditto, $15 shipped.  CONUS; other places at cost. Make offer
for all 17 and (very possibly) get a fat discount!

Also: TA Pro 5 Vis right/Stronglight 99 crank set, 170 mm: make offer.

XT seatpost, black, 26.8 mm, 310 mm long, vg, $25 shipped CONUS.

2 pairs Kucharik toe clip covers. I shortened the velcro straps to a
more manageable length and put eyelets at the tops to zip tie them to
the clips. $10/pr shipped CONUS.

Black, 1 1/8 Easton 100 mm, 10* rise threadless stem, VG, 25.4/26 mm
clamp, $12 shipped CONUS.

Black, 1 1/8 Avenir 100 mm, 45* (more or less) rise threadless stem,
32 mm clamp with shims for narrower ones, $12 shipped CONUS.

Trade offers welcome: can use:

Lezyne minipumps with hoses -- skinny, fat or Goldilocks
9 speed chains, but nothing fancy.
8 speed silver Dura Ace 32 hole hubset
7400 rd like this one, vg: http://tinyurl.com/bttwkf6
Top quality 650C (See) 23 -- 25 mm folding tires


-- 
Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you.

Flannery O'Connor

-
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-

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[RBW] 56cm AHH/Hiluki still for sale

2012-06-05 Thread Peter M

So a few lookers but nothing concrete, my 56cm AHH is still for sale
here. It is technically a Hiluki, Serial number SA 226. It has all the
rack fittings of the new Hilsens on the midfork and mid seat stay, one
eyelet on the front fork, two on the back dropout. Has a kickstand
plate, and cast in ridges on bottom bracket.  A really top shelf
example of a bike that is used but not abused or ridden hard.  Again
color is School bus Yellow but looks more like creamsicle to me. Will
include dia compe centerpulls and kookstop pads. Bike has no damage,
dents dings etc. I paid $1100 shipped two months ago and haven't added
any damage or real use and even framesavered the frame and repacked
the headset so really don't want to take a big loss here. Looking for
$1050 shipped in super secure box to lower 48.  Here is a link to my
Flikr page, thanks.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67889635@N06/

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Re: [RBW] 56cm AHH/Hiluki still for sale

2012-06-05 Thread Michael Williams

Hey Peter,   are you selling the bike complete or F/F/HS/brakes?
-thanks-Mike

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Peter M uscpeter11...@gmail.com wrote:

 So a few lookers but nothing concrete, my 56cm AHH is still for sale
 here. It is technically a Hiluki, Serial number SA 226. It has all the
 rack fittings of the new Hilsens on the midfork and mid seat stay, one
 eyelet on the front fork, two on the back dropout. Has a kickstand
 plate, and cast in ridges on bottom bracket.  A really top shelf
 example of a bike that is used but not abused or ridden hard.  Again
 color is School bus Yellow but looks more like creamsicle to me. Will
 include dia compe centerpulls and kookstop pads. Bike has no damage,
 dents dings etc. I paid $1100 shipped two months ago and haven't added
 any damage or real use and even framesavered the frame and repacked
 the headset so really don't want to take a big loss here. Looking for
 $1050 shipped in super secure box to lower 48.  Here is a link to my
 Flikr page, thanks.

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/67889635@N06/

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[RBW] Re: Wanted: SR / Sakae aluminum all-rounder handlebar

2012-06-05 Thread dan gee

Soma makes a couple of similar looking bars -- the clarence and the 
condorina seem like they could mate and produce what you're looking for.
http://www.somafab.com/parts/handlebar
-Dan

On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:56:13 PM UTC-4, erik wrote:

 Has anyone ever seen one of these? I want a bar like this or something 
 that puts your hands in front of the stem, and must be narrowish 3 speed 
 style. I've already ruled out the Jitensha bar and a few others. 


 http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/sakae/catalog18/pdf/sakaecatalog18_%2010.pdf 

 Thanks! 
 Erik in Portland Or

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Re: [RBW] 56cm AHH/Hiluki still for sale

2012-06-05 Thread Peter Morgano

Sorry, its Frame, Fork, Headset and Brakes.  Thanks.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Michael Williams mkernanwilli...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Hey Peter,   are you selling the bike complete or F/F/HS/brakes?
 -thanks-Mike


 On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Peter M uscpeter11...@gmail.com wrote:

 So a few lookers but nothing concrete, my 56cm AHH is still for sale
 here. It is technically a Hiluki, Serial number SA 226. It has all the
 rack fittings of the new Hilsens on the midfork and mid seat stay, one
 eyelet on the front fork, two on the back dropout. Has a kickstand
 plate, and cast in ridges on bottom bracket.  A really top shelf
 example of a bike that is used but not abused or ridden hard.  Again
 color is School bus Yellow but looks more like creamsicle to me. Will
 include dia compe centerpulls and kookstop pads. Bike has no damage,
 dents dings etc. I paid $1100 shipped two months ago and haven't added
 any damage or real use and even framesavered the frame and repacked
 the headset so really don't want to take a big loss here. Looking for
 $1050 shipped in super secure box to lower 48.  Here is a link to my
 Flikr page, thanks.

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/67889635@N06/

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Re: [RBW] 56cm AHH/Hiluki still for sale

2012-06-05 Thread Peter Morgano

I could sell the frameset and wheels for $1,500 if anyone was interested.
Alfine wheel done by Harris in the rear, front is Rich built, will include
the Hetres.  Thanks.


Peter

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.comwrote:

 Sorry, its Frame, Fork, Headset and Brakes.  Thanks.

 On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Michael Williams 
 mkernanwilli...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hey Peter,   are you selling the bike complete or F/F/HS/brakes?
 -thanks-Mike


 On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Peter M uscpeter11...@gmail.com wrote:

 So a few lookers but nothing concrete, my 56cm AHH is still for sale
 here. It is technically a Hiluki, Serial number SA 226. It has all the
 rack fittings of the new Hilsens on the midfork and mid seat stay, one
 eyelet on the front fork, two on the back dropout. Has a kickstand
 plate, and cast in ridges on bottom bracket.  A really top shelf
 example of a bike that is used but not abused or ridden hard.  Again
 color is School bus Yellow but looks more like creamsicle to me. Will
 include dia compe centerpulls and kookstop pads. Bike has no damage,
 dents dings etc. I paid $1100 shipped two months ago and haven't added
 any damage or real use and even framesavered the frame and repacked
 the headset so really don't want to take a big loss here. Looking for
 $1050 shipped in super secure box to lower 48.  Here is a link to my
 Flikr page, thanks.

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/67889635@N06/

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Re: [RBW] Re: Riv Rally Midwest

2012-06-05 Thread Liesl


And I'm the dapper gal attired in the harris tweed vest, stetson (yes, 
stetson) wool driving cap, Ibex pinstriped knickers, macrostie town  
country boots (http://www.bigfoottrail.com/repair.html), and those luscious 
beloved most sadly discontinued gray wool monkey socks. (I provide these 
details in the reverent way that some describe the hunt for long cage 
silver derailers that can accommodate 36T cogs)

rare sightings of Liesl in her native habitat can be seen here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14126468@N05/7331727518/in/set-72157630036777900/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14126468@N05/7331712974/in/set-72157630036777900/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14126468@N05/7331707676/in/set-72157630036777900/ 
(best shot of the stetson for you hat lovers)

and more importantly, rare sightings of the little red saluki:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7627416@N06/7328426500/in/set-72157630029377718

Alas, there were no sightings of Riv Chica Warrior in her red cape and 
bike-thief-capturing lasso; however if you look closely, you can make out 
the magic car-deflecting leather bracelets 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Riv Rally Midwest

2012-06-05 Thread Seth Vidal

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Liesl li...@smm.org wrote:

 And I'm the dapper gal attired in the harris tweed vest, stetson (yes,
 stetson) wool driving cap, Ibex pinstriped knickers, macrostie town 
 country boots (http://www.bigfoottrail.com/repair.html), and those luscious
 beloved most sadly discontinued gray wool monkey socks. (I provide these
 details in the reverent way that some describe the hunt for long cage silver
 derailers that can accommodate 36T cogs)

 rare sightings of Liesl in her native habitat can be seen here:
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/14126468@N05/7331727518/in/set-72157630036777900/
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/14126468@N05/7331712974/in/set-72157630036777900/
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/14126468@N05/7331707676/in/set-72157630036777900/
 (best shot of the stetson for you hat lovers)

Liesl,
 Where did that vest come from? I ask b/c I have an S.O. who would be
ALL about that vest. I can pull off the vests myself but I am partial
to boiled wool ones from ibex. She, however, loves the tweed. :)

Thanks,
-sv

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[RBW] Re: Wanted: SR / Sakae aluminum all-rounder handlebar

Erik

I *might *have a set for you.  Kind of long story.  I did a bunch of bike 
work for our Elementary School Dad's Club bicycle-recycle event.  One of 
the bikes I worked on was an 80's sport-touring bike.  I swapped the drop 
bars for my own old set of SR all rounder bars.  The bike looked like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/7210470602/in/photostream 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/7210471160/in/photostream/ 

The bike turned out so well that I sold it before the event to my buddy 
Doug.  Doug decided to put a massive Wald basket on there (I approved), but 
he had to swap out the bars to make room for it.  I *think* that means that 
he doesn't need those bars, so I might very well be getting them back. 
 They are aluminum, and very light.  

Bill

On Sunday, June 3, 2012 9:56:13 AM UTC-7, erik wrote:

 Has anyone ever seen one of these? I want a bar like this or something 
 that puts your hands in front of the stem, and must be narrowish 3 speed 
 style. I've already ruled out the Jitensha bar and a few others. 


 http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/sakae/catalog18/pdf/sakaecatalog18_%2010.pdf 

 Thanks! 
 Erik in Portland Or

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[RBW] Re: Wanted: SR / Sakae aluminum all-rounder handlebar

Erik

I do have a set for you.  Doug says I can have them back.  Let's figure out 
a small PTA donation + shipping = price if you want them.  

Bill

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 9:47:08 AM UTC-7, William wrote:

 Erik

 I *might *have a set for you.  Kind of long story.  I did a bunch of bike 
 work for our Elementary School Dad's Club bicycle-recycle event.  One of 
 the bikes I worked on was an 80's sport-touring bike.  I swapped the drop 
 bars for my own old set of SR all rounder bars.  The bike looked like this:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/7210470602/in/photostream 
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/7210471160/in/photostream/ 

 The bike turned out so well that I sold it before the event to my buddy 
 Doug.  Doug decided to put a massive Wald basket on there (I approved), but 
 he had to swap out the bars to make room for it.  I *think* that means 
 that he doesn't need those bars, so I might very well be getting them back. 
  They are aluminum, and very light.  

 Bill

 On Sunday, June 3, 2012 9:56:13 AM UTC-7, erik wrote:

 Has anyone ever seen one of these? I want a bar like this or something 
 that puts your hands in front of the stem, and must be narrowish 3 speed 
 style. I've already ruled out the Jitensha bar and a few others. 


 http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/sakae/catalog18/pdf/sakaecatalog18_%2010.pdf
  

 Thanks! 
 Erik in Portland Or



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[RBW] My 650B conversion progress report

My Miyata 650B conversion is coming along.  I built the rear wheel last 
night.  I'm thinking of it as a very low-budget Bleriot.  

Bike:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/7341918544/in/photostream 

Set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629709054752/ 

The strangest part about it will be the SKINNY handlebars.  They are like 
41cm outside to outside, like a full 2 inches narrower than some of my 
bikes.  It feels like a kids bike and my hands look like Andre the Giant 
paws when I'm on the tops.  I will probably get the front wheel built up 
tonight, and then hopefully take care of the rear fender, and she'll be 
basically done. The leap to tubeless is coming.  

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Re: [RBW] 56cm AHH/Hiluki still for sale

2012-06-05 Thread Joe Bernard

Is the creamsicle bike a rebadged Saluki, too? Me thinks you have it 
confused with the green one.
 
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 9:06:52 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

 I could sell the frameset and wheels for $1,500 if anyone was interested. 
 Alfine wheel done by Harris in the rear, front is Rich built, will include 
 the Hetres.  Thanks.
  
  
 Peter

 On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.comwrote:

 Sorry, its Frame, Fork, Headset and Brakes.  Thanks. 

 On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Michael Williams 
 mkernanwilli...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hey Peter,   are you selling the bike complete or F/F/HS/brakes?
 -thanks-Mike


 On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Peter M uscpeter11...@gmail.com wrote:

 So a few lookers but nothing concrete, my 56cm AHH is still for sale
 here. It is technically a Hiluki, Serial number SA 226. It has all the
 rack fittings of the new Hilsens on the midfork and mid seat stay, one
 eyelet on the front fork, two on the back dropout. Has a kickstand
 plate, and cast in ridges on bottom bracket.  A really top shelf
 example of a bike that is used but not abused or ridden hard.  Again
 color is School bus Yellow but looks more like creamsicle to me. Will
 include dia compe centerpulls and kookstop pads. Bike has no damage,
 dents dings etc. I paid $1100 shipped two months ago and haven't added
 any damage or real use and even framesavered the frame and repacked
 the headset so really don't want to take a big loss here. Looking for
 $1050 shipped in super secure box to lower 48.  Here is a link to my
 Flikr page, thanks.

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/67889635@N06/

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[RBW] FS a NIB Sugino XD2 triple crankset $110 shipped

I picked up this crankset when I was building my wife's Yves Gomez.  Riv 
was out of XD2 cranks at the time, and I got these from another vendor.  I 
had been storing these away for an Atlantis build, but that build is fading 
into the future horizon.  What I really want now is a super fancy set of 
metal fenders for my Hilsen.  So, take these off my hands and I'll be a lot 
closer to being able to do that.  They are 172.5mm arms and they are 100% 
new in box.  $110 shipped in the Continental US (USPS Priority Mail).  

The rings are 48/36/24.  The big ring in particular is slightly different 
from the big ring that came on the XD2 crankset that I did buy from Riv. 
 It's got more of a bead blasted finish, and it has a few holes around the 
perimeter that make it look like it could take a chainguard.  I can't say 
if this is a cheaper ring or an inferior ring, or if it's better, but it is 
different.  The middle and small rings appear identical to the ones that 
came on the XD2 I bought from Riv.  Have a look:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629434340509/ 

4 photos are there.  

Bill

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Re: [RBW] 56cm AHH/Hiluki still for sale

2012-06-05 Thread Peter Morgano

Haha, that is what I thought too, two re-badged Saluki's but unless I am
mistaking the serial numbers it is serial No SA 0213. Which is I believe
means Saluki 213, probably very late in the run. I am not sure how early on
they got absorbed into the AHH Line but I know the Saluki badging didnt run
too terribly long.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote:

Is the creamsicle bike a rebadged Saluki, too? Me thinks you have it
confused with the green one.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 9:06:52 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

I could sell the frameset and wheels for $1,500 if anyone was interested.
Alfine wheel done by Harris in the rear, front is Rich built, will include
the Hetres. Thanks.

Peter

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Peter Morgano
uscpeter11...@gmail.comwrote:

Sorry, its Frame, Fork, Headset and Brakes. Thanks.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Michael Williams
mkernanwilli...@gmail.com wrote:

Hey Peter, are you selling the bike complete or F/F/HS/brakes?
-thanks-Mike

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Peter M uscpeter11...@gmail.comwrote:

So a few lookers but nothing concrete, my 56cm AHH is still for sale
here. It is technically a Hiluki, Serial number SA 226. It has all the
rack fittings of the new Hilsens on the midfork and mid seat stay, one
eyelet on the front fork, two on the back dropout. Has a kickstand
plate, and cast in ridges on bottom bracket. A really top shelf
example of a bike that is used but not abused or ridden hard. Again
color is School bus Yellow but looks more like creamsicle to me. Will
include dia compe centerpulls and kookstop pads. Bike has no damage,
dents dings etc. I paid $1100 shipped two months ago and haven't added
any damage or real use and even framesavered the frame and repacked
the headset so really don't want to take a big loss here. Looking for
$1050 shipped in super secure box to lower 48. Here is a link to my
Flikr page, thanks.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/**67889635@N06/http://www.flickr.com/photos/67889635@N06/

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[RBW] FS: 61 cm Romulus

2012-06-05 Thread Brian Verstegen

All,

Am selling this clean Romulus. I have upgraded to Ultegra shifters and will 
include the bar end shifters, brakes and an extra long stem with the deal. 

Price $1000 

Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Pictures are located here: 
https://plus.google.com/photos/115641348103092838384/albums/5750362928449967825?banner=pwaauthkey=CPrvx9ukoqjhqAE

Happy Cycling,

Brian

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Re: [RBW] Re: Wanted: SR / Sakae aluminum all-rounder handlebar

2012-06-05 Thread Joe Bunik

Erik, I am sure you already know about the alternate 25.4-clamp
Jitensha bar, it is a little bit more curvacious than the normal
J-bar. Also, GB (of England) once made an All-Rounder bar that is
similar to these Sakaes.

I have a Phillippe in the stash that is also close, but which I find
is not very comfortable in actual use at all- in case you were
interested. It takes road-clamp size levers IIRC, so it kinda gets a
moustache bar thing going on.

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA


On 6/5/12, dan gee dmg...@gmail.com wrote:
 Soma makes a couple of similar looking bars -- the clarence and the
 condorina seem like they could mate and produce what you're looking for.
 http://www.somafab.com/parts/handlebar
 -Dan

 On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:56:13 PM UTC-4, erik wrote:

 Has anyone ever seen one of these? I want a bar like this or something
 that puts your hands in front of the stem, and must be narrowish 3 speed
 style. I've already ruled out the Jitensha bar and a few others.


 http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/sakae/catalog18/pdf/sakaecatalog18_%2010.pdf


 Thanks!
 Erik in Portland Or

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Re: [RBW] 56cm AHH/Hiluki still for sale

2012-06-05 Thread Bruce Herbitter

They probably used up Saluki BB shells on hand when they blended Saluki
into Hilsen. John at RBW can give you a close estimate on the # of Salukis
sold, probably. (He did that when I asked him about Rams at the time they
were put to sleep) You could probably get either decal set and headbadge
you want if you ever decide to repaint and prefer one scheme over the
other. Hilsen and Saluki were always presented as being equivilant bikes,
purpose-wise.

I enjoyed tooling around on SA 84 just this past Sunday. Still rides great.
It's yellow green with metallic sparkles that looks like it's coming back
in the new green Hunqapillars.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.comwrote:

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote:

Is the creamsicle bike a rebadged Saluki, too? Me thinks you have it
confused with the green one.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 9:06:52 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:

I could sell the frameset and wheels for $1,500 if anyone was
interested. Alfine wheel done by Harris in the rear, front is Rich built,
will include the Hetres. Thanks.

Peter

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Peter Morgano
uscpeter11...@gmail.comwrote:

Sorry, its Frame, Fork, Headset and Brakes. Thanks.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Michael Williams
mkernanwilli...@gmail.com wrote:

Hey Peter, are you selling the bike complete or F/F/HS/brakes?
-thanks-Mike

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Peter M uscpeter11...@gmail.comwrote:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/**67889635@N06/http://www.flickr.com/photos/67889635@N06/

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[RBW] Re: FS-Rivendell Road Standard FF/HS

2012-06-05 Thread frank_a

. The frame has been sold.Thank you to all who inquired.
- Frank
 

On Friday, June 1, 2012 1:16:56 PM UTC-4, frank_a wrote: 

 Hi All, 
 For sale:
 59.5 Rivendell Road Standard, frame, fork and headset.
  This is one of the early Waterford builds with the bi-plane fork, '95 or 
 '96. I have owned it for a bit over 5 years. Structurally/functionally it 
 is fine but the original paint will need attention of some sort, depending 
 on what you value. From the time I got it there were some rough spots 
 (shown in the photos). I was going to send the frame to JB for a repaint so 
 I made the choice to see what was going on underneath those areas. The 
 paint in the affected areas flaked off after a bit of prodding with a 
 needle. It's got knicks and stuff you'd expect to see on a frame of it's 
 age but no dents. So hit it with some primer and ride or go for a full 
 repaint.
  It's a great bike but I've come across a double Joe, Long Low that is a 
 better fit and takes a bigger tire so this one will go.
 550.00 plus shipping.
  Have a look at all the pictures linked and feel free to ask questions. 

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/8531240@N06/sets/72157629942070062/ 

 Thanks,
  - Frank


On Friday, June 1, 2012 1:16:56 PM UTC-4, frank_a wrote: 

 Hi All, 
 For sale:
 59.5 Rivendell Road Standard, frame, fork and headset.
  This is one of the early Waterford builds with the bi-plane fork, '95 or 
 '96. I have owned it for a bit over 5 years. Structurally/functionally it 
 is fine but the original paint will need attention of some sort, depending 
 on what you value. From the time I got it there were some rough spots 
 (shown in the photos). I was going to send the frame to JB for a repaint so 
 I made the choice to see what was going on underneath those areas. The 
 paint in the affected areas flaked off after a bit of prodding with a 
 needle. It's got knicks and stuff you'd expect to see on a frame of it's 
 age but no dents. So hit it with some primer and ride or go for a full 
 repaint.
  It's a great bike but I've come across a double Joe, Long Low that is a 
 better fit and takes a bigger tire so this one will go.
 550.00 plus shipping.
  Have a look at all the pictures linked and feel free to ask questions. 

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/8531240@N06/sets/72157629942070062/ 

 Thanks,
  - Frank


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[RBW] Good day of riding.

I find myself incredibly lucky and fortunate to be able to do rides this 
far and this long. I have very supportive love ones and I'm lucky enough 
that I have the time to do these rides. I find out more about myself every 
time I do rides like these. For  this Populaire I learned that it was okay 
to ride for yourself. As social as cycling if you have to get somewhere you 
have to get  there under your own power(unless your riding on a tandem).  
The start of this ride turned out to almost the same as the last populaire. 
Cold, a chance of rain with a hint of fog rolling over the bridge. Great 
group of people these SF Randonneurs got to meet a handful of them from 
previous rides and a few from the Rivendell forum. Adam and Adam was there 
participating in their first rando event. Rob was there to greet everyone 
who was eager to warm up because they were freezing their booties off. 
Luckly the fog burnt off and the rest of the ride was just about perfect. 
Got to share the ride with Carlos and talked to him about touring. He's a 
lucky man to have a love one who does these types of events with him. She 
was working the finish control for that day. After the first control I got 
the ride with Esteban who portrays a typical Randonneur. Wool Jersey, 
awesome beard, self-fulfilling look of tiredness. Curious about how many 
Rando events I have to do to get a beard like his. 
Not like it matters to anyone else but me but I got to finish the ride 10 
minutes earlier then the last Populaire. I'm particularly proud of this 
because I rode my road bike on the last populaire. Goes to show you that 
the bike doesn't matter.
Felt good so decided to take the family out riding. Since I needed to stop 
by RivHQ I decided to take them riding around Shell Ridge. A quick stop by 
the shop never is quick when you end up chatting it up with everyone. Harry 
showed me his new hat (for the life of me I forget where he got it from) 
which was previously pink but turned to this awesome cream. I even got to 
ride Harry's Brompton which rides normally despite being a tiny folding 
bike.
Off on Shell Ridge the family had a great time. My father wanted to see 
what these Rivendell bike's were all about so I urged him to ride it. He 
seems natural on the bike and the learns how to ride with bar-ends in less 
then two minutes. My father being a very reserved person approves silently 
with huge grin coming down the hills of Shell Ridge. Not bad of a day to go 
riding. 

Pictures Proved that the family enjoy themselves:
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjzRgwBC

- Manny It's okay to ride solo, sometimes. Acosta

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[RBW] Re: My 650B conversion progress report

2012-06-05 Thread Patrick in VT

On Jun 5, 1:09 pm, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote:
 My Miyata 650B conversion is coming along.  I built the rear wheel last
 night.  I'm thinking of it as a very low-budget Bleriot.

Looks great!  Smart go-anywhere build - I dig it.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Wanted: SR / Sakae aluminum all-rounder handlebar

2012-06-05 Thread James Warren

If you are riding with this bar (the Clarence):

http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/clarence-bar

and you are on a Rivendell that can fit Big Apples, do you get to say, "We have clearance, Clarence?"

-Original Message- From: dan gee Sent: Jun 5, 2012 8:44 AM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: Wanted: SR / Sakae aluminum all-rounder handlebar Soma makes a couple of similar looking bars -- the clarence and the condorina seem like they could mate and produce what you're looking for.
http://www.somafab.com/parts/handlebar
-DanOn Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:56:13 PM UTC-4, erik wrote:
Has anyone ever seen one of these? I want a bar like this or something that puts your hands in front of the stem, and must be narrowish 3 speed style. I've already ruled out the Jitensha bar and a few others. http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/sakae/catalog18/pdf/sakaecatalog18_%2010.pdf Thanks! Erik in Portland Or
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[RBW] Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

Disclaimer:

This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I don't mean
to start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan vs. Grant
philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its initial
results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has another
point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted,
either privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial topic
it usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose to
do on my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the
exchange of information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand
proudly by their bikes and their design philosophy. This post is in no way
an attempt to challenge that. They are aware of my experiment.

Ok, here I go...

For a number of reasons that I can just summarize, in no particular order,
as the tendency of my Rivendell bikes to shimmy with any loads (especially
my Atlantis), my dislike for how they handle with any front loads
and especially heavier ones, as well as with heavy rear loads, all of which
magnify the tendency of the front steering to pull  and require
overcorrection when turning, as well as the interesting and very educating
online discussions and articles on bike geometry and fork geometry and its
effects on the handling characteristics of a bike, I decided to try it to
see for myself what the whole low trail geometry claims were about.
 I wasn't able or willing to go buy a new bike just to experiment, and even
if I did, there would be no way I could tell what the low trail fork would
do to the handling of my Rivendell bikes which, aside from the
nuances/issues stated above, I love. And yes, while I could
certainly adjust to all of these quirks, I just didn't like having them on
my bikes. The obvious solution recommended by some people on this group in
addition to several articles online pointed me to Tom Matchak in the East
Coast who had already built low trail forks for other Rivendell bikes. Tom
seemed to have a great reputation as a builder and immediately knew what
this was all about when I contacted him. Due to the long lead time to have
the low trail fork built for my Atlantis as was my original intention plus
a few additional considerations that came up as part of this process, like
the need to have the Atlantis repainted and why not, the Hunqapillar as
well (never did like that gray color much), I decided to take the risk of
ordering two low trail forks for both the Atlantis and the Hunqapillar as
these are the bikes I mainly ride loaded.

I asked Jan Heine for his low trail recommendation as well as Tom Matchak
and they both came out with the same number: 40mm of trail, which requires
a rake of 70mm for 40/50 mm tires. On the Hunqapillar, the same 70mm rake
comes out to 42mm of trail. For comparison, the standard Rivendell fork for
the Atlantis has 45mm rake/65mm trail and the standard Hunqapillar fork has
50mm rake/63mm trail. I had to send several detailed measurements to Tom
Matchak so he could preserve the crown race to axle distances on both
bikes. He also specked cable guides for my dynamo lights as well as fender
attachments so I no longer need to fiddle with the darumas to mount the
front fenders and can screw in the fender directly to the underside of the
crown. Additionally, the fork for the Hunqapillar was spec'd with a Pacenti
MTB bi-plate crown to run the 50mm tires with 60 mm fenders and the fork
for the Altantis with a Long Shen A16 crown to be used with 40mm tires and
50 mm fenders. Regretfully but understandably so, I got a negative response
to my inquire at RBW on whether I could buy a pair of Rivendell crowns for
this project, so while none of these crowns is as beautiful as the original
Riv crowns, they're sort of Rivish, especially the A16. Both forks were
also spec'd with the usual set braze-ons for the normal array of racks
including the Nova and Duo Lowrider racks. Tom put these braze-ons on the
front of the fork instead of on the back where the Riv forks have them with
the effect that it will be easier to level them properly. I didn't ask for
the braze-ons on top of the crown as I have no use for them.

After the long expected wait (this whole project started in december of
2011 and it took until febrary for the orders and details for both forks to
be completed. Tom was going to schedule them to be built in March anyway
and was done in April. He shipped both forks to the local painter Keven
recommended (DD cycles); for some reason I never understood, he refused
from the start to ship the unpainted forks to me, but agreed to ship them
to the painter of my choice since the bikes were going to be repainted and
the forks would have to be painted to match the frames.

The second phase of this project is for me to disassemble the Atlantis
first and take it to Rick to be repainted. This repaint was necessary (as
these things are) since I had the right down tube

[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

Well written and thoughtful treatment of the subject.  I'm super glad you 
are getting positive results for your substantial efforts.  And I for one 
think the Pacenti crown looks dynamite.  



On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 1:37:57 PM UTC-7, René wrote:

 Disclaimer:
  
 This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I don't mean 
 to start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan vs. Grant 
 philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its initial 
 results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has another 
 point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted, 
 either privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial topic 
 it usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose to 
 do on my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the 
 exchange of information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand 
 proudly by their bikes and their design philosophy. This post is in no way 
 an attempt to challenge that. They are aware of my experiment.
  
 Ok, here I go...
  
 For a number of reasons that I can just summarize, in no particular order, 
 as the tendency of my Rivendell bikes to shimmy with any loads (especially 
 my Atlantis), my dislike for how they handle with any front loads 
 and especially heavier ones, as well as with heavy rear loads, all of which 
 magnify the tendency of the front steering to pull  and require 
 overcorrection when turning, as well as the interesting and very educating 
 online discussions and articles on bike geometry and fork geometry and its 
 effects on the handling characteristics of a bike, I decided to try it to 
 see for myself what the whole low trail geometry claims were about.
  I wasn't able or willing to go buy a new bike just to experiment, and 
 even if I did, there would be no way I could tell what the low trail fork 
 would do to the handling of my Rivendell bikes which, aside from the 
 nuances/issues stated above, I love. And yes, while I could 
 certainly adjust to all of these quirks, I just didn't like having them on 
 my bikes. The obvious solution recommended by some people on this group in 
 addition to several articles online pointed me to Tom Matchak in the East 
 Coast who had already built low trail forks for other Rivendell bikes. Tom 
 seemed to have a great reputation as a builder and immediately knew what 
 this was all about when I contacted him. Due to the long lead time to have 
 the low trail fork built for my Atlantis as was my original intention plus 
 a few additional considerations that came up as part of this process, like 
 the need to have the Atlantis repainted and why not, the Hunqapillar as 
 well (never did like that gray color much), I decided to take the risk of 
 ordering two low trail forks for both the Atlantis and the Hunqapillar as 
 these are the bikes I mainly ride loaded.
  
 I asked Jan Heine for his low trail recommendation as well as Tom Matchak 
 and they both came out with the same number: 40mm of trail, which requires 
 a rake of 70mm for 40/50 mm tires. On the Hunqapillar, the same 70mm rake 
 comes out to 42mm of trail. For comparison, the standard Rivendell fork for 
 the Atlantis has 45mm rake/65mm trail and the standard Hunqapillar fork has 
 50mm rake/63mm trail. I had to send several detailed measurements to Tom 
 Matchak so he could preserve the crown race to axle distances on both 
 bikes. He also specked cable guides for my dynamo lights as well as fender 
 attachments so I no longer need to fiddle with the darumas to mount the 
 front fenders and can screw in the fender directly to the underside of the 
 crown. Additionally, the fork for the Hunqapillar was spec'd with a Pacenti 
 MTB bi-plate crown to run the 50mm tires with 60 mm fenders and the fork 
 for the Altantis with a Long Shen A16 crown to be used with 40mm tires and 
 50 mm fenders. Regretfully but understandably so, I got a negative response 
 to my inquire at RBW on whether I could buy a pair of Rivendell crowns for 
 this project, so while none of these crowns is as beautiful as the original 
 Riv crowns, they're sort of Rivish, especially the A16. Both forks were 
 also spec'd with the usual set braze-ons for the normal array of racks 
 including the Nova and Duo Lowrider racks. Tom put these braze-ons on the 
 front of the fork instead of on the back where the Riv forks have them with 
 the effect that it will be easier to level them properly. I didn't ask for 
 the braze-ons on top of the crown as I have no use for them.
  
 After the long expected wait (this whole project started in december of 
 2011 and it took until febrary for the orders and details for both forks to 
 be completed. Tom was going to schedule them to be built in March anyway 
 and was done in April. He shipped both forks to the local painter Keven 
 recommended (DD cycles); for some reason I never understood, he refused 
 from the start

Re: [RBW] Bosco Bars

2012-06-05 Thread Marc Irwin

Peter,
I lean on the knobs I added just as you might with brake hoods on a 
roadie.  The only significant difference is that you can position them 
where you want on the slope without worrying about a braking position.  My 
upper body weight ends up resting on the fleshy part of my hand between the 
thumb and forefinger without the palms or edges of the palms coming into 
play.  The angle of the slope just accommodates the knobs beautifully and I 
experience no numbness at all.  I will try to get a photo posted when I 
review the bike and build in a few days.

Marc

On Monday, June 4, 2012 2:20:32 PM UTC-4, Peter M wrote:

 Marc, I am a bit confused, you would hold the knobs from the back of the 
 bars around the front? I am just trying to picture it having never used 
 them before. I thought they would ride higher to act as faux hoods to rest 
 your hands on while riding, kinda near the bend.  Sorry again if I am just 
 totally missing it but I too have the bosco bars and would love to get the 
 most versatility possible out of them. Thanks.

 On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Marc Irwin irwin7...@gmail.com wrote:

 The knobs provide a position which takes the palm and edges of the palm 
 out of contact.  So, all those sensitive nerve endings which cause numbness 
 are not affected.  I rode 62 miles the first day with complete comfort.

 Marc


 On Monday, June 4, 2012 10:00:25 AM UTC-4, David G wrote:

 That is a nifty Bosco set-up, Marc, with the extra brake levers near the 
 stem and the Dia-Compe antler 
 nubshttp://www.susanstevenson.com/Journal/2009/June/7140MooseP.jpg! 
 Is the hands-on-nubs position comfy?

 - David G, Madison WI


 On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 8:20 AM, Marc Irwin irwin7...@gmail.com wrote:

   I did my first ride with my new Bosco Bars and was really 
 impressed.http://simplecycle-marc.blogspot.com/2012/06/rivendells-bosco-bars.html
   
 I rode a 100K at the Harpeth River Ride outside of Nashville and found the 
 bars to be great.  Nothing to do, but wrap 'em in leather and call them 
 keepers for sure!

 Marc

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[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread Allan in Portland

Kudos to you for doing what you wanted, how you wanted. :-)

And thanks for sharing the thorough description with the rest of us.

...but not liking the Hunq gray? Really? We have to talk. ;-)

Regards,
-Allan

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[RBW] Re: FS a NIB Sugino XD2 triple crankset $110 shipped

sold

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 10:16:13 AM UTC-7, William wrote:

 I picked up this crankset when I was building my wife's Yves Gomez.  Riv 
 was out of XD2 cranks at the time, and I got these from another vendor.  I 
 had been storing these away for an Atlantis build, but that build is fading 
 into the future horizon.  What I really want now is a super fancy set of 
 metal fenders for my Hilsen.  So, take these off my hands and I'll be a lot 
 closer to being able to do that.  They are 172.5mm arms and they are 100% 
 new in box.  $110 shipped in the Continental US (USPS Priority Mail).  

 The rings are 48/36/24.  The big ring in particular is slightly different 
 from the big ring that came on the XD2 crankset that I did buy from Riv. 
  It's got more of a bead blasted finish, and it has a few holes around the 
 perimeter that make it look like it could take a chainguard.  I can't say 
 if this is a cheaper ring or an inferior ring, or if it's better, but it is 
 different.  The middle and small rings appear identical to the ones that 
 came on the XD2 I bought from Riv.  Have a look:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157629434340509/ 

 4 photos are there.  

 Bill


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[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread Justin August

Wow.
This sounds like an amazing project. It's nice to know that the bikes 
retain the positive aspects of their handling without adding many (if 
any) negative aspects when going to low-trail. I'm super tempted to try the 
same for my Bleriot!

-J

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 4:37:57 PM UTC-4, René wrote:

 Disclaimer:
  
 This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I don't mean 
 to start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan vs. Grant 
 philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its initial 
 results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has another 
 point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted, 
 either privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial topic 
 it usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose to 
 do on my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the 
 exchange of information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand 
 proudly by their bikes and their design philosophy. This post is in no way 
 an attempt to challenge that. They are aware of my experiment.
  
 Ok, here I go...
  
 For a number of reasons that I can just summarize, in no particular order, 
 as the tendency of my Rivendell bikes to shimmy with any loads (especially 
 my Atlantis), my dislike for how they handle with any front loads 
 and especially heavier ones, as well as with heavy rear loads, all of which 
 magnify the tendency of the front steering to pull  and require 
 overcorrection when turning, as well as the interesting and very educating 
 online discussions and articles on bike geometry and fork geometry and its 
 effects on the handling characteristics of a bike, I decided to try it to 
 see for myself what the whole low trail geometry claims were about.
  I wasn't able or willing to go buy a new bike just to experiment, and 
 even if I did, there would be no way I could tell what the low trail fork 
 would do to the handling of my Rivendell bikes which, aside from the 
 nuances/issues stated above, I love. And yes, while I could 
 certainly adjust to all of these quirks, I just didn't like having them on 
 my bikes. The obvious solution recommended by some people on this group in 
 addition to several articles online pointed me to Tom Matchak in the East 
 Coast who had already built low trail forks for other Rivendell bikes. Tom 
 seemed to have a great reputation as a builder and immediately knew what 
 this was all about when I contacted him. Due to the long lead time to have 
 the low trail fork built for my Atlantis as was my original intention plus 
 a few additional considerations that came up as part of this process, like 
 the need to have the Atlantis repainted and why not, the Hunqapillar as 
 well (never did like that gray color much), I decided to take the risk of 
 ordering two low trail forks for both the Atlantis and the Hunqapillar as 
 these are the bikes I mainly ride loaded.
  
 I asked Jan Heine for his low trail recommendation as well as Tom Matchak 
 and they both came out with the same number: 40mm of trail, which requires 
 a rake of 70mm for 40/50 mm tires. On the Hunqapillar, the same 70mm rake 
 comes out to 42mm of trail. For comparison, the standard Rivendell fork for 
 the Atlantis has 45mm rake/65mm trail and the standard Hunqapillar fork has 
 50mm rake/63mm trail. I had to send several detailed measurements to Tom 
 Matchak so he could preserve the crown race to axle distances on both 
 bikes. He also specked cable guides for my dynamo lights as well as fender 
 attachments so I no longer need to fiddle with the darumas to mount the 
 front fenders and can screw in the fender directly to the underside of the 
 crown. Additionally, the fork for the Hunqapillar was spec'd with a Pacenti 
 MTB bi-plate crown to run the 50mm tires with 60 mm fenders and the fork 
 for the Altantis with a Long Shen A16 crown to be used with 40mm tires and 
 50 mm fenders. Regretfully but understandably so, I got a negative response 
 to my inquire at RBW on whether I could buy a pair of Rivendell crowns for 
 this project, so while none of these crowns is as beautiful as the original 
 Riv crowns, they're sort of Rivish, especially the A16. Both forks were 
 also spec'd with the usual set braze-ons for the normal array of racks 
 including the Nova and Duo Lowrider racks. Tom put these braze-ons on the 
 front of the fork instead of on the back where the Riv forks have them with 
 the effect that it will be easier to level them properly. I didn't ask for 
 the braze-ons on top of the crown as I have no use for them.
  
 After the long expected wait (this whole project started in december of 
 2011 and it took until febrary for the orders and details for both forks to 
 be completed. Tom was going to schedule them to be built in March anyway 
 and was done in April. He shipped both forks to the local painter Keven 
 recommended (DD cycles); for some

[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread dougP

Rene:

You are indeed brave to post about your experiment, and I hope
everyone else reviews it thoughtfully.

Something we all need to keep in mind is that as brilliant a designer
as Grant is, every bike is the sum of a large number of compromises.
The fewer the compromises, the more specialized and hence less
versatile a bike is.  For me, one of the major attractions of
Rivendell is the versatility of my Atlantis.  There just isn't any
ride I would hesitate to do because my bike can't do that.

This confidence building versatility has also led me to a lot of why
not? adventures in loading, and I'm probably not alone here.  It
would be impossible to design a single bike that would be equally
competent handling all the possible combinations of front, rear, high,
 low loading.  Rivendell, IMHO, does it better than most, probably
because they actually think about it, load their bikes  go banging
about the hills in the real world.

I took delivery of my Atlantis in early 03, and it's my go-to bike for
everything.  Over the years, I came to prefer having my basic, daily
stuff in a front bag, first a Riv Hobo, then an Acorn Boxy Rando
(holds more).  It seemed that with the front bag fairly well stuffed,
the bike had a bit of a wander when climbing at low speed, nothing as
you describe but an irritating tendency to want to go somewhere else.
I always dismissed it as the load and my inattentiveness.  Stumbling
into some low trail discussion or article, it seemed like maybe there
was room for improvement, at least to my tastes.

When touring with a load, the bike was a bit dodgy with everything on
the rear, the problem being an infrequent but unpredictable shimmy.
Spreading the weight around among 4 bags restored stability.  Since my
lodging load is 2 bags, on-tour ezperiments with them front vs rear
showed front to be a more stable location.  However, the previously
mentioned wandering was more annoying with all the weight up
front.

Tom Matchak also came to my attention courtesy another list member,
and built the same fork for me.  Since my issue was not as dramatic as
yours, I was only hoping to get the same stability with a front load
that the bike had with no load.  The result meets expectations.  The
40 mm trail is not a relgious experience but a rather subtle change
that solved my personal problem without disturbing anything else about
the bike.

Note that I did not leap into this without a good deal of second
guessing and self-argument.  The Atlantis is a great bike and I did
not want to screw it up.  Fortunately, the results justified the
deliberations.  It would not surprise me if another Riv owner rode my
bike  hated it.  It just works for my  my quirky habits.

Side bar re: shimmy.  If you get shimmy, don't assume the 40 mm trail
is the cure.  On a recent S24O (2 bagger) I rode with the bags in
front on the way out and the rear on the return.  On a straight,
level, smooth bike trail at perhaps 12 mph, I got a nasty shimmy when
I had to stop quickly, with the load in the rear.  After that, all the
way home, I tried to induce it again with no success.  The typical
tail wag when standing is still there.  I've been experimenting with
trying to move the load lower  as far forward as practical.  I may
need a change of rack (currently using the Nitto Big Back rack) to get
things where I want them.

Funny that you want to paint both bikes.  I really like the gray 
kidney bean red Hunq paint scheme, and have considered doing that on
my Atlantis.  It's spent enough time traveling that I'm thinking new
paint for it's 10th birthday would be nice.  Of course, my wife tells
me it's you; sorta old  beat-up looking.  I think there's a
complement in there but I could be just wishing.

dougP




On Jun 5, 1:37 pm, René Sterental orthie...@gmail.com wrote:
 Disclaimer:

 This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I don't mean
 to start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan vs. Grant
 philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its initial
 results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has another
 point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted,
 either privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial topic
 it usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose to
 do on my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the
 exchange of information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand
 proudly by their bikes and their design philosophy. This post is in no way
 an attempt to challenge that. They are aware of my experiment.

 Ok, here I go...

 For a number of reasons that I can just summarize, in no particular order,
 as the tendency of my Rivendell bikes to shimmy with any loads (especially
 my Atlantis), my dislike for how they handle with any front loads
 and especially heavier ones, as well as with heavy rear loads, all of which
 magnify the tendency of the front steering to

[RBW] Re: Good day of riding.

2012-06-05 Thread dougP

Well documented; I especially like the mood of the fog photos in
BW.  Looks like a fun ride.

dougP

On Jun 5, 12:36 pm, Manuel Acosta manueljohnaco...@hotmail.com
wrote:
 I find myself incredibly lucky and fortunate to be able to do rides this
 far and this long. I have very supportive love ones and I'm lucky enough
 that I have the time to do these rides. I find out more about myself every
 time I do rides like these. For  this Populaire I learned that it was okay
 to ride for yourself. As social as cycling if you have to get somewhere you
 have to get  there under your own power(unless your riding on a tandem).
 The start of this ride turned out to almost the same as the last populaire.
 Cold, a chance of rain with a hint of fog rolling over the bridge. Great
 group of people these SF Randonneurs got to meet a handful of them from
 previous rides and a few from the Rivendell forum. Adam and Adam was there
 participating in their first rando event. Rob was there to greet everyone
 who was eager to warm up because they were freezing their booties off.
 Luckly the fog burnt off and the rest of the ride was just about perfect.
 Got to share the ride with Carlos and talked to him about touring. He's a
 lucky man to have a love one who does these types of events with him. She
 was working the finish control for that day. After the first control I got
 the ride with Esteban who portrays a typical Randonneur. Wool Jersey,
 awesome beard, self-fulfilling look of tiredness. Curious about how many
 Rando events I have to do to get a beard like his.
 Not like it matters to anyone else but me but I got to finish the ride 10
 minutes earlier then the last Populaire. I'm particularly proud of this
 because I rode my road bike on the last populaire. Goes to show you that
 the bike doesn't matter.
 Felt good so decided to take the family out riding. Since I needed to stop
 by RivHQ I decided to take them riding around Shell Ridge. A quick stop by
 the shop never is quick when you end up chatting it up with everyone. Harry
 showed me his new hat (for the life of me I forget where he got it from)
 which was previously pink but turned to this awesome cream. I even got to
 ride Harry's Brompton which rides normally despite being a tiny folding
 bike.
 Off on Shell Ridge the family had a great time. My father wanted to see
 what these Rivendell bike's were all about so I urged him to ride it. He
 seems natural on the bike and the learns how to ride with bar-ends in less
 then two minutes. My father being a very reserved person approves silently
 with huge grin coming down the hills of Shell Ridge. Not bad of a day to go
 riding.

 Pictures Proved that the family enjoy themselves:http://flic.kr/s/aHsjzRgwBC

 - Manny It's okay to ride solo, sometimes. Acosta

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Re: [RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread Steve Palincsar

On Tue, 2012-06-05 at 15:41 -0700, dougP wrote:
 
 Something we all need to keep in mind is that as brilliant a designer
 as Grant is, every bike is the sum of a large number of compromises.
 The fewer the compromises, the more specialized and hence less
 versatile a bike is.  For me, one of the major attractions of
 Rivendell is the versatility of my Atlantis.  There just isn't any
 ride I would hesitate to do because my bike can't do that.

But Grant is not a brilliant experimenter.  When he did the low trail
fork experiment in Riv Reader he neglected to factor in one highly
significant variable (especially highly significant in the context of
low trail): tire width.  He tried low trail with narrow tires and did
not like it.  Although it was pointed out to him that wide tires add
pneumatic trail and one point of lowering geometric trail is to maintain
the balance and keep total trail reasonable, by that time his mind was
made up and he refused to try wider tires.



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Re: [RBW] Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread PATRICK MOORE

Rene: very interesting experiment; please continue to report as you
add loads and about the Atlantis when you get it back and built.

I gather that your riding position involves a high bar, and that your
weight is concentrated toward the back end of the bike? I wonder how
your H and A would have handled with lower bars and more body weight
forward? I myself notice that in weight back situations -- rear
load, sitting up in a low gear, on a steep hill -- a bike's tendency
to wander is greatest.

I myself would be interested in finding out more how a new fork might
make my Fargo handle *more* like Rivendells, but that's another
experiment.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 2:37 PM, René Sterental orthie...@gmail.com wrote:
 Disclaimer:

 This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I don't mean to
 start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan vs. Grant
 philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its initial
 results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has another
 point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted, either
 privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial topic it
 usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose to do
 on my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the exchange of
 information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand proudly by their
 bikes and their design philosophy. This post is in no way an attempt to
 challenge that. They are aware of my experiment.

 Ok, here I go...

 For a number of reasons that I can just summarize, in no particular order,
 as the tendency of my Rivendell bikes to shimmy with any loads (especially
 my Atlantis), my dislike for how they handle with any front loads
 and especially heavier ones, as well as with heavy rear loads, all of which
 magnify the tendency of the front steering to pull  and require
 overcorrection when turning, as well as the interesting and very educating
 online discussions and articles on bike geometry and fork geometry and its
 effects on the handling characteristics of a bike, I decided to try it to
 see for myself what the whole low trail geometry claims were about.
 I wasn't able or willing to go buy a new bike just to experiment, and even
 if I did, there would be no way I could tell what the low trail fork would
 do to the handling of my Rivendell bikes which, aside from the
 nuances/issues stated above, I love. And yes, while I could certainly adjust
 to all of these quirks, I just didn't like having them on my bikes. The
 obvious solution recommended by some people on this group in addition to
 several articles online pointed me to Tom Matchak in the East Coast who had
 already built low trail forks for other Rivendell bikes. Tom seemed to have
 a great reputation as a builder and immediately knew what this was all about
 when I contacted him. Due to the long lead time to have the low trail fork
 built for my Atlantis as was my original intention plus a few additional
 considerations that came up as part of this process, like the need to have
 the Atlantis repainted and why not, the Hunqapillar as well (never did like
 that gray color much), I decided to take the risk of ordering two low trail
 forks for both the Atlantis and the Hunqapillar as these are the bikes I
 mainly ride loaded.

 I asked Jan Heine for his low trail recommendation as well as Tom Matchak
 and they both came out with the same number: 40mm of trail, which requires a
 rake of 70mm for 40/50 mm tires. On the Hunqapillar, the same 70mm rake
 comes out to 42mm of trail. For comparison, the standard Rivendell fork for
 the Atlantis has 45mm rake/65mm trail and the standard Hunqapillar fork has
 50mm rake/63mm trail. I had to send several detailed measurements to Tom
 Matchak so he could preserve the crown race to axle distances on both bikes.
 He also specked cable guides for my dynamo lights as well as fender
 attachments so I no longer need to fiddle with the darumas to mount the
 front fenders and can screw in the fender directly to the underside of the
 crown. Additionally, the fork for the Hunqapillar was spec'd with a Pacenti
 MTB bi-plate crown to run the 50mm tires with 60 mm fenders and the fork for
 the Altantis with a Long Shen A16 crown to be used with 40mm tires and 50 mm
 fenders. Regretfully but understandably so, I got a negative response to my
 inquire at RBW on whether I could buy a pair of Rivendell crowns for this
 project, so while none of these crowns is as beautiful as the original Riv
 crowns, they're sort of Rivish, especially the A16. Both forks were also
 spec'd with the usual set braze-ons for the normal array of racks including
 the Nova and Duo Lowrider racks. Tom put these braze-ons on the front of the
 fork instead of on the back where the Riv forks have them with the effect
 that it will be easier to level them properly. I didn't ask for the
 braze-ons on top of the crown as I have no

[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread C.J. Filip

Rene,

Can you comment on toe overlap between the different forks on your
Atlantis.  It looks like you ride a 58cm and have a small amount of
overlap here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/orthie251/6617229451/in/photostream/.
Very curious to know if the low-trail fork eliminates any TCO as I'm
casually considering going up to a 58 from 56 Atlantis.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

Thank you all for your comments and feedback, and for appreciating my
intent in this post.

@C.J.: I'll comment on the toe overlap when I get the Atlantis with the low
trail fork installed. I have no toe overlap on the Hunqapillar.

@Patrick: Yes, I ride with my bars higher than the saddle and find my
hands, neck and shoulder pain go away in a more upright position. Now with
the Bosco bars I've found Nirvana... and you may be right, maybe that has
an impact on the front tendency to wander. I didn't, however, change any
other aspect of my  riding position or bike components when I switched the
forks.

@ Allan: Yeah... I don't really like the gray color; it's the only color in
Riv's bike pallete that has refused to grow on me over time. Now I have to
make up my mind if I really want to paint it silver or go with another
color. The Atlantis, however, I'm keeping in its original color. I don't
think I could come up with a better one for it. It's part of its soul... :-)

René

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Re: [RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread Greg J

Rene,

Thanks for your write up.  Very interesting.  I have some thoughts about 
the low-trail issue, FWIW.  

I definitely noticed a difference in handling between the low trail bike (a 
Toei I had for a while) and a Riv, which I assume may be attributable to 
the difference in trail.  The hard part is describing the difference in 
feel, and I thought I'd do my part to muddy the waters even more.  You say, 
where before I had to drive the bike, especially around turns, now all I 
have to do is think of where I want to go and the bike just responds 
effortlessly.  That's funny, because I would have described it the 
opposite way.  In my experience, the low trail bike will go exactly where 
you point the handlebar and will respond to small changes in your input.  A 
positive way to describe this would be it's responsive to steering 
input.  A negative description would be, it requires you to always be 
controlling the bike.  The high trail bike is more stable, in that once you 
set a course in a turn, it will keep to its natural arc. Positively, it's 
on rails, and negatively, it resists or fights your input.  I think the 
term automatic can be applied to both, and mean different thing, and that 
may be where some confusion arises.  Low trail is automatic in that it 
tracks more closely your steering input--it does what you're perhaps 
subconsciously doing to the bike.  High trail is automatic in that it (esp 
in turns) has its own arc that it will default to once you initiate the 
turn and it resists efforts to alter that course.  Does this make sense?

Anyways, as most will agree, it's not a life-changing experience, and 
plenty of people (myself included) have toured on high-trail bikes with a 
front bag and survived.  But it's a significant enough difference, and I'm 
glad you embarked on your adventures.

Greg

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[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread Michael_S

finally came out of the closet.. eh Doug.
My personal experience is that without the front load the Riv is more 
stable and funner to ride.  Adding a medium  weight upfront/above wheel 
load changes the equation. 

~mike



On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 3:41:20 PM UTC-7, dougP wrote:

 Rene: 

 You are indeed brave to post about your experiment, and I hope 
 everyone else reviews it thoughtfully. 

 Something we all need to keep in mind is that as brilliant a designer 
 as Grant is, every bike is the sum of a large number of compromises. 
 The fewer the compromises, the more specialized and hence less 
 versatile a bike is.  For me, one of the major attractions of 
 Rivendell is the versatility of my Atlantis.  There just isn't any 
 ride I would hesitate to do because my bike can't do that. 

 This confidence building versatility has also led me to a lot of why 
 not? adventures in loading, and I'm probably not alone here.  It 
 would be impossible to design a single bike that would be equally 
 competent handling all the possible combinations of front, rear, high, 
  low loading.  Rivendell, IMHO, does it better than most, probably 
 because they actually think about it, load their bikes  go banging 
 about the hills in the real world. 

 I took delivery of my Atlantis in early 03, and it's my go-to bike for 
 everything.  Over the years, I came to prefer having my basic, daily 
 stuff in a front bag, first a Riv Hobo, then an Acorn Boxy Rando 
 (holds more).  It seemed that with the front bag fairly well stuffed, 
 the bike had a bit of a wander when climbing at low speed, nothing as 
 you describe but an irritating tendency to want to go somewhere else. 
 I always dismissed it as the load and my inattentiveness.  Stumbling 
 into some low trail discussion or article, it seemed like maybe there 
 was room for improvement, at least to my tastes. 

 When touring with a load, the bike was a bit dodgy with everything on 
 the rear, the problem being an infrequent but unpredictable shimmy. 
 Spreading the weight around among 4 bags restored stability.  Since my 
 lodging load is 2 bags, on-tour ezperiments with them front vs rear 
 showed front to be a more stable location.  However, the previously 
 mentioned wandering was more annoying with all the weight up 
 front. 

 Tom Matchak also came to my attention courtesy another list member, 
 and built the same fork for me.  Since my issue was not as dramatic as 
 yours, I was only hoping to get the same stability with a front load 
 that the bike had with no load.  The result meets expectations.  The 
 40 mm trail is not a relgious experience but a rather subtle change 
 that solved my personal problem without disturbing anything else about 
 the bike. 

 Note that I did not leap into this without a good deal of second 
 guessing and self-argument.  The Atlantis is a great bike and I did 
 not want to screw it up.  Fortunately, the results justified the 
 deliberations.  It would not surprise me if another Riv owner rode my 
 bike  hated it.  It just works for my  my quirky habits. 

 Side bar re: shimmy.  If you get shimmy, don't assume the 40 mm trail 
 is the cure.  On a recent S24O (2 bagger) I rode with the bags in 
 front on the way out and the rear on the return.  On a straight, 
 level, smooth bike trail at perhaps 12 mph, I got a nasty shimmy when 
 I had to stop quickly, with the load in the rear.  After that, all the 
 way home, I tried to induce it again with no success.  The typical 
 tail wag when standing is still there.  I've been experimenting with 
 trying to move the load lower  as far forward as practical.  I may 
 need a change of rack (currently using the Nitto Big Back rack) to get 
 things where I want them. 

 Funny that you want to paint both bikes.  I really like the gray  
 kidney bean red Hunq paint scheme, and have considered doing that on 
 my Atlantis.  It's spent enough time traveling that I'm thinking new 
 paint for it's 10th birthday would be nice.  Of course, my wife tells 
 me it's you; sorta old  beat-up looking.  I think there's a 
 complement in there but I could be just wishing. 

 dougP 




 On Jun 5, 1:37 pm, René Sterental orthie...@gmail.com wrote: 
  Disclaimer: 
  
  This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I don't 
 mean 
  to start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan vs. 
 Grant 
  philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its 
 initial 
  results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has another 
  point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted, 
  either privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial 
 topic 
  it usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose 
 to 
  do on my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the 
  exchange of information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand 
  proudly by their bikes and their design philosophy. This post

RE: [RBW] Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread Larry Powers


I am always impressed with people who can put this type of thought and effort 
into a bike project.  

I have an Atlantis and a Rambouillet.  I have ridden many brevets including 
1200k's on the Rambouillet using a large front handlebar bag.  The only problem 
I have encountered is climbing at low speed the weight of the bag tends to make 
the front wheel want to flop more from side to side requiring extra effort to 
maintain a straight line.  At normal cruising speed and on high speed descents 
I have found the handling of the bike to be sure and confident.   

I have ridden the Atlantis unloaded and with a Hoss and Boxy Baggins for week 
long tours and again never encountered any problems in handling.  I have not 
put on a full load of panniers so I can't comment on this.  The bike feels just 
a little heavier then the Rambouillet but not so much so that I wouldn't use it 
for general riding.

I don't know if my experience with the performance of the bikes is different 
because of slight differences in the bikes, the style of the rider (me) versus 
other riders styles or just a difference in expectations.  Because I am quite 
happy with the handling of these bikes I have decided that I do not want to 
change them.

But, I have also wanted to try a low trail bike and recently saw that the Velo 
Orange Randonneurs were on sale for a very good price.  I am in the process of 
building one of these bikes up now and will be interested to see how it 
compares to my Riv's.  One difference with the VO Randonneurs compared to other 
low trail bikes is that the VO's are 700c and limited to 30mm tires with 
fenders.  I am assuming that the trail is optimized for this width tire.  If I 
find I like the low trail bike for touring I can then invest in a frame that 
will take the wider tires I would like and if I don't I haven't invested too 
much in the experiment. 

Nice work, keep us posted on your results.

Larry Powers 

 

Get a bicycle.  You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain


From: orthie...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:37:57 -0700
Subject: [RBW] Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start 
another debate...
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com

Disclaimer: This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I 
don't mean to start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan 
vs. Grant philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its 
initial results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has 
another point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted, 
either privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial topic it 
usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose to do on 
my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the exchange of 
information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand proudly by their 
bikes and their design philosophy. This post is in no way an attempt to 
challenge that. They are aware of my experiment.

 Ok, here I go... For a number of reasons that I can just summarize, in no 
particular order, as the tendency of my Rivendell bikes to shimmy with any 
loads (especially my Atlantis), my dislike for how they handle with any front 
loads and especially heavier ones, as well as with heavy rear loads, all of 
which magnify the tendency of the front steering to pull  and require 
overcorrection when turning, as well as the interesting and very educating 
online discussions and articles on bike geometry and fork geometry and its 
effects on the handling characteristics of a bike, I decided to try it to see 
for myself what the whole low trail geometry claims were about.


I wasn't able or willing to go buy a new bike just to experiment, and even if I 
did, there would be no way I could tell what the low trail fork would do to the 
handling of my Rivendell bikes which, aside from the nuances/issues stated 
above, I love. And yes, while I could certainly adjust to all of these quirks, 
I just didn't like having them on my bikes. The obvious solution recommended by 
some people on this group in addition to several articles online pointed me to 
Tom Matchak in the East Coast who had already built low trail forks for other 
Rivendell bikes. Tom seemed to have a great reputation as a builder and 
immediately knew what this was all about when I contacted him. Due to the long 
lead time to have the low trail fork built for my Atlantis as was my original 
intention plus a few additional considerations that came up as part of this 
process, like the need to have the Atlantis repainted and why not, the 
Hunqapillar as well (never did like that gray color much), I decided to take 
the risk of ordering two low trail forks for both the Atlantis and the 
Hunqapillar as these are the bikes I mainly ride loaded.


 I asked Jan Heine for his low trail recommendation as well as Tom Matchak and 
they both came out with the same number: 40mm of trail,

Re: [RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread Tim McNamara

On Jun 5, 2012, at 6:27 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
 On Tue, 2012-06-05 at 15:41 -0700, dougP wrote:
 
 Something we all need to keep in mind is that as brilliant a designer
 as Grant is, every bike is the sum of a large number of compromises.
 The fewer the compromises, the more specialized and hence less
 versatile a bike is.  For me, one of the major attractions of
 Rivendell is the versatility of my Atlantis.  There just isn't any
 ride I would hesitate to do because my bike can't do that.
 
 But Grant is not a brilliant experimenter.  When he did the low trail
 fork experiment in Riv Reader he neglected to factor in one highly
 significant variable (especially highly significant in the context of
 low trail): tire width.  He tried low trail with narrow tires and did
 not like it.  Although it was pointed out to him that wide tires add
 pneumatic trail and one point of lowering geometric trail is to maintain
 the balance and keep total trail reasonable, by that time his mind was
 made up and he refused to try wider tires.

There are many factors that go into bike feel.  Trail is only one of them and 
perhaps not even the most important.  Trying to boil down how bikes ride to the 
notions of low trail vs high trail or front-loading vs rear-loading or 
high BB vs low BB etc. is something of a fool's errand.  No one factor 
dominates.  A high trail bike with a 75 degree head tube will feel different 
than a bike with same amount of trail and a 72 degree head tube; ditto low 
trail bikes.  The math that describes a bike's handling is very complicated, 
not actually solved yet, and is right up there with jet aircraft dynamics.  The 
important thing IMHO is that people find bikes that ride the way they like 
bikes to ride.  That way they will ride more and will have fun.  It's great 
that there are a variety of bike designs out there.  I am glad the OP had a 
successful experiment and has found something that works better for him.

To each their own.  I have not liked any low trail bikes I have ridden.  Some 
people love them and, who knows, I might ride one some day that I really like- 
there is no reason to rule that out.  Jan is eloquent in his praises of them.  
I've never experienced the problems with high trail bikes that he and some 
other folks report.  My high trail bikes don't pull in turns and I can 
change my line in the middle of a corner at will, maybe the result of many 
miles spent racing road races and criteriums on high trail bikes- I steer a 
bike with the saddle as much or more than the handlebars.  What made me think 
about matching riding style to bike feel is that I have one bike- which I built 
and which came out with unintentionally high trail, due to the head tube 
steepening when I brazed up the frame- that feels dramatically better if I lean 
aggressively to corner like I am racing and feels weird if I try to corner by 
steering with the handlebars.  And some things are even confusing- track bikes 
tend to have high trail (they are ridden pretty much in a straight line around 
the banking of a velodrome) and yet are typically praised for their nimbleness 
when, according to trail theory, they shouldn't be.

The danger in any discussion comes when we confuse subjective preference with 
objective fact, and especially getting really attached to the factuality of 
one's beliefs and preferences- whether about bikes, politics or religion.

FWIW my 1996 All-Rounder is a great handling bike with a front load (about 10 
lbs has been the maximum) or a rear load (about 18 lbs in a Carradice Nelson), 
on 26 x 1.25 Paselas.  I don't even know for sure whether it's high or low 
trail; my best estimate using straightedges ad tape and rulers and drawings on 
the floor is that it's about 55 mm with the current tires, so medium trail.  
Bigger tires would make it higher trail, smaller tires would make it lower 
trail.  The Paselas at 1.25 seem to be the sweet spot with that bike.  It's 
sort of like my old Volvo 240- really comfortable, sportier than you'd expect 
and astonishingly nimble.  The best handling bike I have ever ridden is my 
high trail  Ritchey with 700 x 25 tires, almost completely telepathic when 
riding it.

So, I say ride whatcha like and works for you.  The OP made a very clear 
discovery for himself with his bikes that will be very useful to him.  Other 
people may find it useful and I say bravo for posting it.  


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[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread Will

Interesting write up.

I noticed in the pictures that your load is fairly forward relative to the 
front axle. I am assuming that is so because you've chosen swept back bars 
(those new Boscos) and your stem is therefore necessarily longer than 
normal to compensate. The long stem means the front bag is also pushed 
forward. 

It is an interesting predicament. 

Will



On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 3:37:57 PM UTC-5, René wrote:

 Disclaimer:
  
 This is a very long post and I want to start by stating that I don't mean 
 to start another heated debate on high vs. low trail fork, or Jan vs. Grant 
 philosophies, etc. I just want to describe this experiment and its initial 
 results to the group so anyone thinking along the same lines has another 
 point of reference. I'll gladly answer any questions that are posted, 
 either privately or publicly but let's handle it as the controversial topic 
 it usually is. Also worth noting is that this is a modification I chose to 
 do on my own to my bikes and while Rivendell certainly supports the 
 exchange of information and knowledge about bikes, they certainly stand 
 proudly by their bikes and their design philosophy. This post is in no way 
 an attempt to challenge that. They are aware of my experiment.
  
 Ok, here I go...
  
 For a number of reasons that I can just summarize, in no particular order, 
 as the tendency of my Rivendell bikes to shimmy with any loads (especially 
 my Atlantis), my dislike for how they handle with any front loads 
 and especially heavier ones, as well as with heavy rear loads, all of which 
 magnify the tendency of the front steering to pull  and require 
 overcorrection when turning, as well as the interesting and very educating 
 online discussions and articles on bike geometry and fork geometry and its 
 effects on the handling characteristics of a bike, I decided to try it to 
 see for myself what the whole low trail geometry claims were about.
  I wasn't able or willing to go buy a new bike just to experiment, and 
 even if I did, there would be no way I could tell what the low trail fork 
 would do to the handling of my Rivendell bikes which, aside from the 
 nuances/issues stated above, I love. And yes, while I could 
 certainly adjust to all of these quirks, I just didn't like having them on 
 my bikes. The obvious solution recommended by some people on this group in 
 addition to several articles online pointed me to Tom Matchak in the East 
 Coast who had already built low trail forks for other Rivendell bikes. Tom 
 seemed to have a great reputation as a builder and immediately knew what 
 this was all about when I contacted him. Due to the long lead time to have 
 the low trail fork built for my Atlantis as was my original intention plus 
 a few additional considerations that came up as part of this process, like 
 the need to have the Atlantis repainted and why not, the Hunqapillar as 
 well (never did like that gray color much), I decided to take the risk of 
 ordering two low trail forks for both the Atlantis and the Hunqapillar as 
 these are the bikes I mainly ride loaded.
  
 I asked Jan Heine for his low trail recommendation as well as Tom Matchak 
 and they both came out with the same number: 40mm of trail, which requires 
 a rake of 70mm for 40/50 mm tires. On the Hunqapillar, the same 70mm rake 
 comes out to 42mm of trail. For comparison, the standard Rivendell fork for 
 the Atlantis has 45mm rake/65mm trail and the standard Hunqapillar fork has 
 50mm rake/63mm trail. I had to send several detailed measurements to Tom 
 Matchak so he could preserve the crown race to axle distances on both 
 bikes. He also specked cable guides for my dynamo lights as well as fender 
 attachments so I no longer need to fiddle with the darumas to mount the 
 front fenders and can screw in the fender directly to the underside of the 
 crown. Additionally, the fork for the Hunqapillar was spec'd with a Pacenti 
 MTB bi-plate crown to run the 50mm tires with 60 mm fenders and the fork 
 for the Altantis with a Long Shen A16 crown to be used with 40mm tires and 
 50 mm fenders. Regretfully but understandably so, I got a negative response 
 to my inquire at RBW on whether I could buy a pair of Rivendell crowns for 
 this project, so while none of these crowns is as beautiful as the original 
 Riv crowns, they're sort of Rivish, especially the A16. Both forks were 
 also spec'd with the usual set braze-ons for the normal array of racks 
 including the Nova and Duo Lowrider racks. Tom put these braze-ons on the 
 front of the fork instead of on the back where the Riv forks have them with 
 the effect that it will be easier to level them properly. I didn't ask for 
 the braze-ons on top of the crown as I have no use for them.
  
 After the long expected wait (this whole project started in december of 
 2011 and it took until febrary for the orders and details for both forks to 
 be completed. Tom was going to schedule them to be built in

[RBW] Re: Riv Rally Midwest

2012-06-05 Thread Doug Magney

I'm the guy in the blue shirt riding the Hunq with the Slickersack up front.  
It was truly a memorable weekend - really great to meet Ted, Sean, Eric and all 
the rest of the crew with special thanks to Jim for his excellent leadership.  
The Maiden Rock to Stockholm leg via the Rustic Rd was among the top rides I've 
ever done.

Doug

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[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread dougP

Tim mentioned The important thing IMHO is that people find bikes that
ride the way they like bikes to ride.  That way they will ride more
and will have fun.

That is what it's all about.  Whatever works for you may be vastly
different than what works for me.  Rider weight, riding style and how
the bike is loaded have way more affect than subtle geometric
differences, IMHO.  I had over 30,000 miles on the Atlantis before I
even dreamed of changing the fork, and even then argued with myself
for at least a year.  The issue evolved into a curiousity about what
if? and of course I had the stock fork in case my ideas were proven
wrong.

Like the book says, Just Ride.

dougP

On Jun 5, 6:51 pm, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote:
 On Jun 5, 2012, at 6:27 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:





  On Tue, 2012-06-05 at 15:41 -0700, dougP wrote:

  Something we all need to keep in mind is that as brilliant a designer
  as Grant is, every bike is the sum of a large number of compromises.
  The fewer the compromises, the more specialized and hence less
  versatile a bike is.  For me, one of the major attractions of
  Rivendell is the versatility of my Atlantis.  There just isn't any
  ride I would hesitate to do because my bike can't do that.

  But Grant is not a brilliant experimenter.  When he did the low trail
  fork experiment in Riv Reader he neglected to factor in one highly
  significant variable (especially highly significant in the context of
  low trail): tire width.  He tried low trail with narrow tires and did
  not like it.  Although it was pointed out to him that wide tires add
  pneumatic trail and one point of lowering geometric trail is to maintain
  the balance and keep total trail reasonable, by that time his mind was
  made up and he refused to try wider tires.

 There are many factors that go into bike feel.  Trail is only one of them and 
 perhaps not even the most important.  Trying to boil down how bikes ride to 
 the notions of low trail vs high trail or front-loading vs 
 rear-loading or high BB vs low BB etc. is something of a fool's errand. 
  No one factor dominates.  A high trail bike with a 75 degree head tube 
 will feel different than a bike with same amount of trail and a 72 degree 
 head tube; ditto low trail bikes.  The math that describes a bike's 
 handling is very complicated, not actually solved yet, and is right up there 
 with jet aircraft dynamics.  The important thing IMHO is that people find 
 bikes that ride the way they like bikes to ride.  That way they will ride 
 more and will have fun.  It's great that there are a variety of bike designs 
 out there.  I am glad the OP had a successful experiment and has found 
 something that works better for him.

 To each their own.  I have not liked any low trail bikes I have ridden.  
 Some people love them and, who knows, I might ride one some day that I really 
 like- there is no reason to rule that out.  Jan is eloquent in his praises of 
 them.  I've never experienced the problems with high trail bikes that he 
 and some other folks report.  My high trail bikes don't pull in turns and 
 I can change my line in the middle of a corner at will, maybe the result of 
 many miles spent racing road races and criteriums on high trail bikes- I 
 steer a bike with the saddle as much or more than the handlebars.  What made 
 me think about matching riding style to bike feel is that I have one bike- 
 which I built and which came out with unintentionally high trail, due to the 
 head tube steepening when I brazed up the frame- that feels dramatically 
 better if I lean aggressively to corner like I am racing and feels weird if I 
 try to corner by steering with the handlebars.  And some things are even 
 confusing- track bikes tend to have high trail (they are ridden pretty much 
 in a straight line around the banking of a velodrome) and yet are typically 
 praised for their nimbleness when, according to trail theory, they shouldn't 
 be.

 The danger in any discussion comes when we confuse subjective preference with 
 objective fact, and especially getting really attached to the factuality of 
 one's beliefs and preferences- whether about bikes, politics or religion.

 FWIW my 1996 All-Rounder is a great handling bike with a front load (about 10 
 lbs has been the maximum) or a rear load (about 18 lbs in a Carradice 
 Nelson), on 26 x 1.25 Paselas.  I don't even know for sure whether it's 
 high or low trail; my best estimate using straightedges ad tape and 
 rulers and drawings on the floor is that it's about 55 mm with the current 
 tires, so medium trail.  Bigger tires would make it higher trail, smaller 
 tires would make it lower trail.  The Paselas at 1.25 seem to be the sweet 
 spot with that bike.  It's sort of like my old Volvo 240- really comfortable, 
 sportier than you'd expect and astonishingly nimble.  The best handling bike 
 I have ever ridden is my high trail  Ritchey with 700 x 25 tires, almost 
 completely telepathic

Re: [RBW] Front Rack Bag on Romulus

2012-06-05 Thread Darin G.

Ordered the Mark's Rack.  Thank you everyone for your input.

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[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

Will,

You are right about the Pass  Stow rack putting the load high and forward.
I liked it and wanted to try it since it allows both the Porteur bag type,
front panniers and any other load that requires a flat surface which also
works great for baskets. It fits very well with the Bosco bars, but one had
nothing to do with the other. I may keep them or not, based on hoe they
behave after trying different loads, particularly on the Porteur bag.

I will also be testing the regular Nitto mini with and without Lowriders,
as well as the Platrack with its matching bag. Lots of things to test over
the course of the next several months...

René

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012, Will wrote:

 Interesting write up.

 I noticed in the pictures that your load is fairly forward relative to the
 front axle. I am assuming that is so because you've chosen swept back bars
 (those new Boscos) and your stem is therefore necessarily longer than
 normal to compensate. The long stem means the front bag is also pushed
 forward.

 It is an interesting predicament.

 Will




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[RBW] Re: Low Trail Fork Experiment ... FYI only - Not intended to start another debate...

2012-06-05 Thread franklyn

Rene,

Another member JimG and I both did something in the same vein. Jim had a 80's 
Trek 
400http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/5646813626/in/set-72157618420547360/that 
he turned into a bike with low trail front end geometry using a 
Kogswell fork. I did the same to my 80's Specialized 
Sequoiahttp://bikegarage.blogspot.com/2012/02/low-trail-specialized-sequoia.html,
 
also with a Kogswell fork and change the wheels to 650b size. I did it 
because the two other bikes I had are ones with mid- and low-trail front 
end geometry, and I found that I prefer that geometry especially in 
descents and climb, and with heavy front load. I totally relate to the 
front load disappearing experience with my Kogswell carrying a heavy load 
on its porteur rack. 

Franklyn

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 8:45:09 PM UTC-7, René wrote:

 Will,

 You are right about the Pass  Stow rack putting the load high and 
 forward. I liked it and wanted to try it since it allows both the Porteur 
 bag type, front panniers and any other load that requires a flat surface 
 which also works great for baskets. It fits very well with the Bosco bars, 
 but one had nothing to do with the other. I may keep them or not, based on 
 hoe they behave after trying different loads, particularly on the Porteur 
 bag. 

 I will also be testing the regular Nitto mini with and without Lowriders, 
 as well as the Platrack with its matching bag. Lots of things to test over 
 the course of the next several months...

 René 

 On Tuesday, June 5, 2012, Will wrote:

 Interesting write up.

 I noticed in the pictures that your load is fairly forward relative to 
 the front axle. I am assuming that is so because you've chosen swept back 
 bars (those new Boscos) and your stem is therefore necessarily longer than 
 normal to compensate. The long stem means the front bag is also pushed 
 forward. 

 It is an interesting predicament. 

 Will


 

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[RBW] Re: Riv Rally Midwest

Thanks for the kind words Bobby. But I'm going to have to disagree with 
you. I strongly believe that Grant's attitude with bikes and he tenacity to 
develop products and bikes that not only caters to the needs of normal 
people but also brings like minded normal people together. It's only 
natural that these normal people socailize by riding bikes together. 
Speaking of which Grant is doing a book signing this Sunday under the 
Golden Gate bridge

tenacity On Monday, June 4, 2012 6:32:21 AM UTC-7, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

 Manny: 

 You realize that Riv Rally East was partially motivated by the group 
 rides you all frequently enjoy in the Bay Area...  You've got so many 
 riders and so many great places to ride... to me it seems like you've 
 been doing Riv Rallies on a regular basis for years... 

 That said, I think you (Manny) should lead the mother of all rides 
 around the Bay Area... Perhaps multiple days, kinda like the Best of 
 the Best...  That would be some event, and one that would likely draw 
 riders from around the country. 

 Peace, 
 Bobby 

 On Jun 4, 2:51 am, Manuel Acosta manueljohnaco...@hotmail.com wrote: 
  The route sounds and looks amazing. I hope a Rivendell Rally can be 
 setup 
  like this on the west coast 
  
  
  
  On Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:22:21 PM UTC-7, EricP wrote: 
  
   Ted, 
  
   Excellent photos.  Glad to have finally met you in person, both at the 
   shop on Thursday and the ride on Saturday.  Today's part of the ride 
 was 
   another adventure, but I bailed out before the last serious gravel 
 climb of 
   the day.  All told, the trip was 80 plus miles with about 20 or so on 
   gravel roads.  And six water crossings.  In fact, the Red Wing, 
   Minnesota water crossing today was up about 6 inches from yesterday. 
 Only 
   time I got my feet wet. 
  
   The part Ted rode with us was on multiple back roads in Wisconsin, 
 with 
   lots of climbing.  We scaled the bluffs twice. And were rewarded by 
 two 
   amazing downhills.  One at high speed, the other, not so fast, but 
 perfect 
   road conditions and essentially no auto traffic.  Could have been 
 better. 
   Saturday night the group that was left stayed in Wabasha, Minnesota, 
 either 
   camping or at a hotel.  Had a late start this morning, and immediately 
   began climbing for about 4 miles.  Not the most difficult grade, but 
   persistent.  Figured it couldn't have been that steep as I didn't use 
   the small chainring today while on Saturday my Sam Hillborne used all 
 of 
   the 21 gears available.  The views from the road was fantastic and the 
   descent into Lake City, MN was exciting to say the least.  Topped out 
 at 
   37mph which is the fastest the SH has done with a camping load.  After 
 a 
   stop, wound up on another country road that turned to gravel, and then 
 back 
   to pavement.  After a bit of decisionmaking near Frontenac, decided I 
 would 
   ride back to Red Wing by way of Highway 61.  A decent paved road, but 
 with 
   heavy traffic on a weekend.  The rest of the group ended up heading 
 over to 
   Hill Ave to climb another bluff on a gravel road with a pretty serious 
   descent.  (Have done the road in the past and didn't feel up to it 
 today.) 
  
   Highlights of my ride back included seeing a number of deer, including 
 one 
   doe and fawn at the corner where Hill Ave. dumps back onto 61.  We 
 also saw 
   an immature bald eage with a fish fly directly above us in Lake City. 
  Was 
   also great to meet a few other folks and just have a great bike riding 
   weekend. 
  
   My pictures are here - 
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/14126468@N05/sets/72157630035172498/ 
  
   Eric Platt 
   St. Paul, MN 
  
   On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Frank Brose fkbr...@gmail.com 
 wrote: 
  
   Thanks for the pics Ted. One ride I wanted to attend was this but my 
   work load said no way.  I knew Jim would put together a great ride. 
   Jim looks like he's going to cross te continental divide. Nice 
   pictures and now I'll try to slip out of my state of manic depression 
   for not being able to make it. 
  
   On Jun 3, 12:12 pm, Ted Durant teddur...@gmail.com wrote: 
The weather gods smiled upon Jim Thill's excellent organization of 
 the 
   Riv Rally Midwest. Unfortunately, I had to leave at the end of 
 Saturday. 
   I'm sure they're enjoying another epic, scenic tour today. 
  
Some photos from Grant's appearance at Hiawatha, the ride from 
   Minneapolis to Red Wing on Friday, and the ride from Red Wing to 
 Wabasha on 
   Saturday. Outstanding riding and company. Thanks, Jim. That was 
 fantastic! 
  
   http://www.flickr.com/photos/7627416@N06/sets/72157630029377718/ 
  
Ted Durant 
Milwaukee, WI, USA 
  
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[RBW] Rivendell Rally Bay Area Edition.

I hear by open up the table for the first annual (hopefully) Rivendell 
Rally Bay Area Edition. I know it's kind of late but with school just 
ending this was the last thing that crossed my mind. But I digress, 
Mr.Grant PetersEn is book signing/reading near the Warming Hut under the 
Golden Gate Bridge. The signing/reading starts around 1pm. I'm opened for 
anything S240 SaturdaySunday, bike ride before or after? We can't have all 
the MidWest coast guys have all the fun! Lets hope we can get a good turn 
out since this is a hop and skip from Rivendell HQ.
-Manny 

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell Rally Bay Area Edition.

2012-06-05 Thread grant

Hey Manny,
Send me a link or something to ... your source of info. My schedule
mentions something at the Park, but doesn't say any more---no time, no
agenda or anything. I'll be where I gotta when I hafta...no
problem...but tell me what you know. PM is fine.

On Jun 5, 9:34 pm, Manuel Acosta manueljohnaco...@hotmail.com wrote:
 I hear by open up the table for the first annual (hopefully) Rivendell
 Rally Bay Area Edition. I know it's kind of late but with school just
 ending this was the last thing that crossed my mind. But I digress,
 Mr.Grant PetersEn is book signing/reading near the Warming Hut under the
 Golden Gate Bridge. The signing/reading starts around 1pm. I'm opened for
 anything S240 SaturdaySunday, bike ride before or after? We can't have all
 the MidWest coast guys have all the fun! Lets hope we can get a good turn
 out since this is a hop and skip from Rivendell HQ.
 -Manny

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[RBW] Re: Riv Rally Midwest

2012-06-05 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

Thanks to everybody who joined this event! Here's my synopsis of events, in 
mostly photo-format.
http://hiawathacyclery.blogspot.com/2012/06/photos-from-rivendell-rally-of-2012.html

On Tuesday, June 5, 2012 10:06:09 PM UTC-5, Doug Magney wrote:

 I'm the guy in the blue shirt riding the Hunq with the Slickersack up 
 front.  It was truly a memorable weekend - really great to meet Ted, Sean, 
 Eric and all the rest of the crew with special thanks to Jim for his 
 excellent leadership.  The Maiden Rock to Stockholm leg via the Rustic Rd 
 was among the top rides I've ever done.

 Doug


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[RBW] Re: Rivendell Rally Bay Area Edition.