Re: [RBW] Re: AHH Tubing Sticker on Frame

[Patrick Moore]

This is the second smart thing Benz has said today. The other was his
remark about the helmet study.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 10:14 PM, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA 
wrote:

>
> Finally, I think that Rivendell's new tubing sticker is tongue-in-cheek.
>
>

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[RBW] FSA 1" threaded headset

[ltk...@hawaii.rr.com]

Aloha Group:

I got and am getting more involved with Rivendell because (no disrespect 
intended) I live in Kailua-Kona, HI home of the Ironman and capital of 
carbon fiber missiles that pass for bicycles.

I am rebuilding an early Trek frame built with brazed Reynolds 531 DB 
tubing.  The "original" Campy headset was looking a bit ratty after hanging 
in my carport for 10+ years.

After much research and discussion with Brian at Rivendell about the Tange 
roller bearing headset found on their site ( and keeping in mind the adage: 
 one measurement is worth 1000 expert opinions ) I followed Brian's 
suggestion and went 
to https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=35562 
and bought that headset.

All went well until the issue of stack height raised its ugly head - after 
we had it on the bike!  We ( my local bike shop mechanic and I ) were left 
with about 2 threads at the top of the steering tube to attach the lock nut!

The long and the short of it is:  This headset has been installed and then 
removed one time (each process).  It is a beautiful piece of machining and 
I am loath to pitch it.

Someone out there please make me an offer I can't refuse + shipping (about 
$10.95 Priority Mail) and I will send it to you. I paid Universal Cycles 
46.00 + shipping.

Leave a note on this board and I will try to monitor it.

Lonnie King

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[RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

[Irving]

The Sugino Alpina2 looks like it is still 
available: http://www.bikemania.biz/sugino-alpina-2-double-crankset.html

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 12:42:48 PM UTC-8, LBleriot wrote:
>
> A few years back, some online sellers (Velo Orange?) sold polished Sugino 
> XD cranksets. The same crank today comes with polished arms, but with matte 
> aluminum chainrings. Does anyone have a polished crankset that they'd be 
> willing to sell?
>

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[RBW] Re: centerpull recommendations for a sam.

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The two bikes I currently have set up with Dia compe centerpulls are great. 
Plenty of stopping power, excellent modulation. I'm planning to put a Mafac 
Racer on my fixed gear this week, as I tried installing a fender under the 
front sidepull I had on there and no go. But just putting in a little love 
for DC. In terms of switching out brakes that are working just fine, 
though...yeah, buy some underwear and have a hot cocoa by the fire.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:13:28 PM UTC-5, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> +1 on Patrick comments.  I think the Dual Pivots are the best out there 
> for caliper types.  I replaced the Dia Compes CP on my 75 Schwinn Voyaguer 
> II with Tektro R559 (from RBW).  Much better than the CPs and easy to set 
> up.
>
> Use the $$$ some where else.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown
>
> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 5:48:19 PM UTC-5, drew wrote:
>
>> so. it's nearing the holiday season. people are asking me what i want, 
>> and this is usually where i ask for bikey stuff, but currently the bikes 
>> are all in pretty good shape. not a lot to work on. no accessories needed 
>> etc. not a bad situation to be in. after consistent prodding for gift 
>> ideas, i have reverted back to an old idea of switch the sam over from 
>> silver sidepulls to centerpulls.  far from a necessary swap, but something 
>> to think about and do.  my understanding is that the good ones can stop 
>> better than sidepulls and the aesthetics are nicer in my opinion. 
>>
>> ive only ever run canti's, sidepulls or cheap vintage centerpulls. so, 
>> what do you like and why?  im only familiar with the paul racers and the VO 
>> ones? what else is out there i should consider. ORRR is this not worth it 
>> at all and i should ask for money ill spend on groceries and paying bills. 
>>
>> also, for context. this is for a sam running 700x50 tires w/o fenders. 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I do actually work in the healthcare industry (helping run clinical trials 
no less!). My impression of this short article and an even shorter abstract 
(lol) is that I cannot say the conclusion is supported one way or the 
other, because there simply isn't enough information and details to chew 
on. Statistical analysis is a very tough subject and if there's something I 
learned from my profession, it's that having an MD is no qualification to 
working the numbers (an inside joke is that it's an anti-qualification), 
which is why we always have a clinical science person (often MD or MD-PhD), 
and a statistician with a PhD in that field (because yes, Shirley, it's 
*that* specialized). Until we see more, we should really take the 
conclusions drawn with cup of salt.

I will like to see if there are any sponsors to this analysis. The sentence 
"next step is to create injury prevention programs to increase helmet use 
among bicyclists, to manufacture better helmets, and to develop and enforce 
stricter laws for helmet use." creates a little suspicion on possible 
conflicts of interest.



On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 5:11:02 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> When did mandatory helmet laws enter this discussion?  I didn't read the 
> article all that closely, but the gist of it as I recall it is that the 
> wearing of helmets was in fact effective in the cases cited.  That itself 
> has been called in question in the past, and it is worthwhile attempting to 
> answer it.  And within that context, the introduction of mandatory helmet 
> laws/helmet wars is an irrelevant distraction.  One can be for the wearing 
> of helmets but against mandatory helmet laws; I am and I know many others 
> who feel the same way.  In fact, although I know many, many helmet users I 
> don't know anyone who favors criminalizing the not wearing of them.
>
> On 11/23/2015 12:19 AM, Doug Williams wrote:
>
> Hey, I wear my helmet all the time, but…The article fails to mention 
> several OTHER important facts. Because of this, the study simply can’t be 
> taken seriously. You simply can’t pick only the facts that support your 
> desired conclusion; you must weigh all the facts. Those advocating helmet 
> laws can't ignore other inconvenient facts that don’t support their 
> conclusion. That’s not how science works, and anyone who ignores 
> established and pertinent facts when making their conclusion shouldn’t be 
> taken seriously. Let’s start by granting their single fact that helmets may 
> reduce injuries in the event of a crash. This single fact has to be weighed 
> against the other proven facts before we can arrive at a conclusion that 
> mandatory helmet laws save lives.
>
>
> Fact 1: Mandatory Helmet Laws reduced ridership. This has been proven over 
> and over again in study after study.
>
>
> Fact 2: Bicycling in general is safer with more bicycles on the road. 
> Drivers get used to seeing bicycles and become accustomed to them. The 
> drivers then act more safely around bicycles. This is also well documented.
>
>
> Fact 3: Bicycling is much safer than they represent when the risk of 
> bicycle injury is weighed against other known risks. Many, many, more 
> people would be saved by mandatory helmet laws for pedestrians and 
> motorists. Around 4,500 pedestrians and 45,000 motorists are killed in 
> accidents each year in the U.S. The percentage of these people who would 
> have reduced injuries with a helmet is similar to that for bicyclists. Why 
> not save these people as well? I’ll take these people seriously when they 
> propose a UNIVERSAL helmet law for everyone instead of just for bicyclists.
>
>
> Fact 4: Around 600 bicyclists die each year in the U.S. but well over 
> 300,000 die of obesity and lack of exercise related diseases. The reduced 
> ridership caused by mandatory helmet laws would cause more deaths from 
> reduced health status than would be saved by helmets. 
>
> All “studies” that argue for mandatory helmet laws ignore the above facts. 
> Find me a study that doesn’t and then we can reopen the helmet wars. In the 
> meantime…yawn.
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 7:02:05 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote: 
>>
>> Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it is 
>> perhaps of interest to some: 
>>
>> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider 
>>
>> And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly 
>> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many 
>> times on this forum.
>>
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyo...@me.com
>> www.campyonly.com
>> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com 
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: AHH Tubing Sticker on Frame

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Once upon a time, I read one of Grant's posting explaining why the 
identification of tubing is not as important as what many will make it out 
to be. Coming from a tradition of Italian racing bicycles, I cynically 
disagreed then, but have since come around as I read more, and learned 
more. There are many things orders of magnitude more important than the 
specifications of the constituent tubings. For example, if the frame 
dimensions fits your riding style, if the tubings are well put together, 
and (if you're a Jan Heine "planing" adherent) what the tubing thicknesses 
and diameters are, all come immediately to mind. Furthermore, bicycle tubes 
hardly ever fail from lack of tensile strength, especially Rivendell's 
bicycles that tend to be overbuilt (as is their philosophy) to last a 
lifetime. Grant touched upon topics like the consideration for where 
strength *is needed*, like chainstays tend to see higher stress than 
seatstays so using higher strength alloys (or thicker tubing) make sense 
there; he also had a little discourse on why he believes fork blades should 
have a lower yield.

>From this short discussion, it should be clear that having a tubing sticker 
doesn't make any sense, especially one that specifies the UTS, yield and 
elongation (because it's highly likely not all tubes use the identical 
alloy). I'll rather the experienced designer/builder pick whatever is 
suitable for its intended use, regardless of whether it's 953, 853 or 725 
(to use Reynolds' parlance). Many highly-regarded builders are aligned in 
this vein. Put another way, what good are these data going to do for the 
end-user?

Finally, I think that Rivendell's new tubing sticker is tongue-in-cheek.



On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 12:28:49 PM UTC-8, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Zach
>  
> thanks for the reply.  The % of elements indicate it is Cr-Moly 4130 
> steel, 1% Cr 0.2% Mo, is the major alloying elements giving the steel 
> certain properties.  In contrast, Reynolds 531 used Mangenese instead of Mo.
>  
> The 2 values are the yield stress (used to design the frame) and ultimate 
> tensile strength (where it breaks).  You can compare these values to other 
> tubing manufacturers like Columbus, Reynolds, True Temper, Tange, etc.  The 
> higher value indicates a stronger steel.
>  
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>  
> On 11/22/15, Zach Duval> wrote:
>  
> Actually, the sticker mentioned above, and that same sticker on my Sam, 
> are recent developments; I was surprised to find it when the frame arrived. 
> Grant has in fact repeatedly stressed the unimportant of specific tubing in 
> a frame; however, he does seem proud of these proprietary tubes. 
>
> I like the science-year feel I get from seeing the sticker on my frame, 
> but I confess the percentages mean very little to me.
>
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[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[Bill Lindsay]

Haha.  Thanks Dave.  

The auction just ended, so I'm in no particular rush.  Let me know if you 
find a stem offlist and I'll figure out how to take it off your hands.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:00:31 PM UTC-8, Dave wrote:
>
> Sorry the list made you bill. I think I've got a stem in those extensions 
> and live in n. Berkeley. Family's in town this week, but this weekend would 
> work.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[jeffrey kane]

Personally, I wish the Albastache bars had been made available with a mtb 
lever compatibility option (like an Albatross). I've long wished the Alba's 
had less rise. The shapes are similar ... but a 'stache that takes an mtb 
lever would provide an option with half the rise (or drop if you chose to 
flip it). That's kind of what the Choco-whatever looks like ... and kind of 
what the VO Porteur looks like (they're all within a few mm's either way). 
But the VO's don't take mtb levers and bar-ends and the Albatross's are a 
5mm rise ... So that Choco-thing looks better and better all the time -- 
but I don't recall anyone specifically confirming that it will take a 
bar-end shifter pod, yet.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:51:47 PM UTC-5, Kainalu wrote:
>
> Somewhere in my digital photo morass there's a photo of albatross bars set 
> up with the bar end style reverse levers and interrupters. I hated it. 
> Thinking back on it, it wasn't the reverse levers that bugged me, it was 
> how the interrupters sat on the curves. Tektro needs to make a drop bar 
> style lever with a mountain sized clamp that can interrupt the brake line 
> cleanly. Which reminds me of the workaround I had on mind, of using the 
> fancy, can't remember the brand name but it was bought by a company in 
> England, cable puller designed for triathlete aero bars. The one that two 
> brake levers fed into one brake line. Most of you will remember exactly 
> what I'm talking about so help me out...  what is it?  Anyways, that could 
> be used to make a nice and tidy double braked wonderbar out of this 
> choco/alba/mustache/megamoose
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY 

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[RBW] New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[Dave]

Sorry the list made you bill. I think I've got a stem in those extensions and 
live in n. Berkeley. Family's in town this week, but this weekend would work.

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[RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Philip Kim]

But again, a lot of riv staff bikes also have silvers.

If they don't give you trouble, then keep them.

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[RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Philip Kim]

Hi Drew, use to have a Sam. Ive used dia compe centerpulls, Paul racers, and 
tektro 559s. 

Dia compe were a bit mushy. Tektro 559s were easiest to set up, and I like the 
quick release for bigger tires. But braking power was still weak.I switched to 
Kool Stop, which made it better, but not as well as my Paul Touring Canti bike. 
Had a few times going downhill in the city with high traffic that was not 
confidence-inspiring.

I moat recebtly had the Paul's on my Sam. They are my favorite of the three. 

Braking is very noticeable improvement. Glad to spend extra money for brakes, 
as they can sometimes be the difference in an unexpected collision (DC drivers 
are not the best at looking in the bike lane before turning).

Sold my Sam but moving the Paul's to my Soma San Marcos. Also acquired a 
Cheviot. Putting Paul Racer on the front, and 559s on the back, mainly to not 
have to deal with setting up the extra long straddle cable.

There's a reason why a lot of the staff bikes have Paul Racers on them.

You can easily make up the cost by getting cheaper derailleurs 
(deore/altus/claris) and cheaper crankset (Riv sugino) and cheaper stem and 
cheaper seat post.

Hope that helps.

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[RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

[LBleriot]

The Alpina, that's the one.  Anyone have this crankset to sell?

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[RBW] New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[Bill Lindsay]

So I sold a few bikes to pay for a mountain bike.  You guys snapped up two 
of my three 650B bikes, and wanted the frames, but not the wheels.  
So I found myself with a surplus of 650B tires, and tried to sell off some, 
but you hardly bought any of them.  
So, it was irresistible, unavoidable that I buy a cheap vintage road bike 
to do a 650B conversion on.  Right?  Right!?

I worked at a Schwinn Shop through the mid 1980s, so I have a long standing 
softspot for mid-1980s Schwinn road bikes.  A standard ebay outing includes 
searches for Paramount, Peloton, Super Sport, Prologue, Circuit, Premis. 
 They were all made either in the US or Japan.  Many had Columbus or 
Prestige tubing.  They had great fork crowns for 650B, generally.  The only 
downer was that virtually all of them did not have fender eyelets.  A 
recent find had me looking through an archived scan of the 1985 Schwinn 
Catalog.  Flipping the virtual pages I was reminded of a model I had been 
overlooking: the Schwinn Tempo.  The 1985 Tempo was the number 4 model road 
bike (Paramount > Peloton > Super Sport > Tempo).  The Super Sport and 
Tempo both have a Columbus "Tenax" label, but the not-very-well-kept-secret 
was that Schwinn bought up a whole mess of cosmetic blem Columbus SL and SP 
at a discount and agreed to label it Tenax.  Thanks to the sneaky light 
tubing, the stock bikes were respectably light.  List weight of the Tempo 
was 22 lbs.  An added plus is that the Tempo was the only "Competition" 
road bike that year with eyelets for fenders.  

So, having added the Tempo to my standard search, I found one almost 
instantly on ebay.  It looks like a completely stock attic-find.  I got it 
at a half-way decent price ($249) and a horrible shipping cost ($95), but 
now I've got my Winter Project, again, thanks to you.  I'm going to do a 
650B conversion on this nice 1985 Schwinn Tempo.



Anybody want to trade me or sell me a Nitto stem with a 25.4 clamp diameter 
and a 10cm or 11cm extension?


Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[James Warren]

Do we know the crank lengths on the forthcoming Appaloosas? Is it possible 
they'll be slightly longer, and that's what's bringing the BB up a few 
millimeters - frame designed with longer cranks in mind?

-James


On Nov 22, 2015, at 10:29 AM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

> Keith
> 
> I went ahead and drew a 50cm Rambouillet, with a 46 Appaloosa and a 51 
> Appaloosa on top of it.  The three drawings all have ground zero at the 
> center of the BB.  I can send you pictures, but photos of pencil on white 
> paper don't show up all that well.  At any rate, I can tell you standover 
> height now.  
> 
> With identical 310mm radius tires (26x1.25), the standover of the 46 
> Appaloosa is about 3cm lower at the back of the top tube.  At the front of 
> the top tube, the 46 Appaloosa is about 1.2cm lower.  At the middle of the 
> top tube, the Appaloosa is about 2.1cm lower.  
> 
> If you put 25mm larger tires on the 46 Appaloosa, then at the back of the top 
> tube, the 46 Appaloosa would still be about 5mm lower.  At the front of the 
> TT, the Appaloosa would be about 1.3cm higher than the Ram.  At the middle of 
> the top tube, the 46cm Appaloosa would be about 4mm higher.
> 
> The insertion point for the handlebars also differ somewhat.  The insertion 
> point for the handlebar stem on the Appaloosa is about 2.4cm farther away, 
> and about 1.2cm lower, relative to the Ram.  So, if your handlebars have a 
> lot more rise and also have a lot more sweep back (like the choco-moose bars) 
> then the rider will still be significantly more upright on the bike than on 
> the Ram.  You would almost certainly not run drop bars on the 46 Appaloosa.  
> It's too low and too far away.  The bike is ideal for swept back handlebars.  
> 
> I didn't finish the 51 Appaloosa because it's quite a bit bigger.  It will be 
> about 5cm taller everywhere along its Top Tube than the 46 will be.  So, if 
> your wife has more than 2" of standover clearance, and is willing to 
> sacrifice a full 2", then consider the 51.  I haven't seen her Ram setup, but 
> it sounds to me like the 51 will be quite a bit too big.  The 46 will have a 
> full 35mm MORE seatpost showing than the Ram does, which you've said bums you 
> out.  
> 
> Bill 
> 
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 2:08:36 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> I guess I would start off with stating the obvious that small bikes with 
> large tires are incredibly difficult to design and fit.  That's a fact.  But 
> I'm not suggesting anything about which size Appaloosa you should buy your 
> wife.  I only wanted to bottom out on what about the BB drop had thrown you 
> for a loop.  It sounds like it would be useful to draw your four bikes all on 
> top of each other on a big piece of paper.  
> 
> 1.  Rambouillet
> 2.  XO-1
> 3.  46 Appa
> 4.  51 Appa
> 
> Grant did a great step by step frame drawing exercise on the predecessor of 
> the BLUG.  Maybe somebody has it archived.  That would be a great exercise 
> for you to walk through, possibly.  Otherwise, if you are eager to buy an 
> Appaloosa on the pre-sale, then at least talk it over with Riv.  Let me know 
> if you want help drawing your bikes.  
> 
> Bill
> 
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 11:32:39 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
> I guess I get that explanation.  And that would probably suggest that the 46 
> might be the best choice.  The on-the-bike fit would feel familiar, even 
> though the seatpost would be extended a lot further than I currently perceive 
> as "correct," and she'd be higher in the air (the whole point of doing this 
> would be specifically to get her on significantly fatter tires, so she can 
> carry more and ride more comfortably on rougher roads), and there would also 
> be way more standover clearance than she needs. Hopefully, the sloped top 
> tube would yield a higher headtube than the 50 Ram, so that her stem could 
> even extend a little less.  The 51, on the other hand, might not give her 
> enough standover clearance.  Since there are (intentionally?) no standover 
> heights listed, its hard to know for sure.  You guys who can test-ride are 
> fortunate.
> 
> I guess, now that you point out the error of my thinking, what I'm really 
> still having trouble with is trying to relate the new limited/expanded sizing 
> system to the old system that had more increments and, in this case, looking 
> incorrectly to the bottom bracket drop and standover height for explanations 
> as to why they fit so differently.  That's been hard enough to understand 
> even for me, but even harder trying to speculate on her behalf since she 
> doesn't think about this stuff enough to be able to articulate what works and 
> what doesn't.  
> 
> I've long felt like I had a good handle on what her next Rivendell would be, 
> based on this current bike that fits fairly well, combined with the thought 
> that I could ratchet it UP one more small increment.   But I probably just 
> need to let go of those preconceptions.  Not unli

Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Kainalu]

http://problemsolversbike.com/products/cable_doubler
There's a two to one and a one to two. This isn't the one I was looking at 
but that one was expensive and unavailable, this one's probably cheap and 
available. Problem solved...
-Kai
Brooklyn NY

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:51:47 PM UTC-5, Kainalu wrote:
>
> Somewhere in my digital photo morass there's a photo of albatross bars set 
> up with the bar end style reverse levers and interrupters. I hated it. 
> Thinking back on it, it wasn't the reverse levers that bugged me, it was 
> how the interrupters sat on the curves. Tektro needs to make a drop bar 
> style lever with a mountain sized clamp that can interrupt the brake line 
> cleanly. Which reminds me of the workaround I had on mind, of using the 
> fancy, can't remember the brand name but it was bought by a company in 
> England, cable puller designed for triathlete aero bars. The one that two 
> brake levers fed into one brake line. Most of you will remember exactly 
> what I'm talking about so help me out...  what is it?  Anyways, that could 
> be used to make a nice and tidy double braked wonderbar out of this 
> choco/alba/mustache/megamoose
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Kainalu]

Somewhere in my digital photo morass there's a photo of albatross bars set up 
with the bar end style reverse levers and interrupters. I hated it. Thinking 
back on it, it wasn't the reverse levers that bugged me, it was how the 
interrupters sat on the curves. Tektro needs to make a drop bar style lever 
with a mountain sized clamp that can interrupt the brake line cleanly. Which 
reminds me of the workaround I had on mind, of using the fancy, can't remember 
the brand name but it was bought by a company in England, cable puller designed 
for triathlete aero bars. The one that two brake levers fed into one brake 
line. Most of you will remember exactly what I'm talking about so help me 
out...  what is it?  Anyways, that could be used to make a nice and tidy double 
braked wonderbar out of this choco/alba/mustache/megamoose
-Kai
Brooklyn NY 

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[RBW] Re: centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Bill Lindsay]

An under-rated gift idea that most frugal people can't possibly justify 
themselves:  a few pair of wool undies.  Riv is out of the MUSAs in 
everything but XL but it appears they have plenty of the Devold ones.  I've 
used both, and since trying the Devold ones maybe 4 years ago I only wear 
wool undies.  They are really nice.  Highly recommended.  The MUSA ones 
have worn longer for me, it seems, and are a bit heavier.  

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 2:48:19 PM UTC-8, drew wrote:
>
> so. it's nearing the holiday season. people are asking me what i want, and 
> this is usually where i ask for bikey stuff, but currently the bikes are 
> all in pretty good shape. not a lot to work on. no accessories needed etc. 
> not a bad situation to be in. after consistent prodding for gift ideas, i 
> have reverted back to an old idea of switch the sam over from silver 
> sidepulls to centerpulls.  far from a necessary swap, but something to 
> think about and do.  my understanding is that the good ones can stop better 
> than sidepulls and the aesthetics are nicer in my opinion. 
>
> ive only ever run canti's, sidepulls or cheap vintage centerpulls. so, 
> what do you like and why?  im only familiar with the paul racers and the VO 
> ones? what else is out there i should consider. ORRR is this not worth it 
> at all and i should ask for money ill spend on groceries and paying bills. 
>
> also, for context. this is for a sam running 700x50 tires w/o fenders. 
>

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[RBW] Re: centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[drew]

alright, youve talked me out of it and saved my wife money. 

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Re: [RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Tim Gavin]

I agree with Patrick M that centerpulls aren't necessarily going to give
you better braking than sidepulls.  In my experience, the braking from Paul
Racers on my Riv Road/650b was just as "meh" as the braking with R559
dual-pivot sidepulls.  OK, but not exceptional, on both counts (with new KS
pads, of course).

But, the centerpulls have a clear advantage in fender clearance.  The arms
don't intrude upon fender space as much as the arms of the R559 did.

If you can get 700 x 50 plus fenders under your R559s, I don't see where
centerpulls would be a practical upgrade for you.  They do look nice and
symmetrical, though.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> My experience, which is extensive but not necessarily definitive, is that
> centerpulls can be as good as other types of brakes, but that they are not
> by any means necessarily better, and that they have been, IME, sometimes
> worse. IOW, the type of brake is less important than the quality of it and
> hardware, and the quality of the setup.
>
> Two anecdotes: first: I used a Dura Ace centerpull (rebranded Tourney, if
> my source was right, who said that Shimano produced these for about 6
> months circa 1976 until they decided to jump on the Campy sidepull
> bandwagon. At any rate, I'd used these on a commuter (or rather, just one,
> the front, since it was a fixie) and found them excellent. But when I used
> the same brake on my erstwhile Motobecane Grand Record grocery getter, I
> found that slowing from a fast downhill roll with a heavy load was fraught
> with peril -- salmon pads; squeezing harder didn't get more braking. I
> replaced it with a dual pivot and felt much more secure.
>
> Second: Preliminary: "good" qualifying "brake" involves not only friction
> force for a given hand pressure, but also ultimate braking force, and also
> modulation. Top line V brakes are as powerful as anything not hydraulic,
> but they don't modulate as well as other types. Ditto cable disks. OTOH,
> many low profile cantis are just weak, and the Road version of the BB7 that
> I used was as useless, no more and no less, as the professionally set up
> Mafac cantis (longer arm Tandem version in front) on the Herse (yes,
> salmons).
>
> Point of anecdote: in the light of the above, the *best* brakes I ever
> used were IRD high profile cantis set up by Riv staff on my erstwhile Sam
> Hill: as powerful as V brakes, modulated better than anything else I've
> used.
>
> Overall point: don't sweat the kind of brake unless what you are using is
> ineffective. Save you Xmas points for something useful like leather or
> tweed fender flaps (or a pair of $500 plastic sunglasses). *Just* kidding
> about the flaps and glasses, but you get my point.
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 3:48 PM, drew  wrote:
>
>> so. it's nearing the holiday season. people are asking me what i want,
>> and this is usually where i ask for bikey stuff, but currently the bikes
>> are all in pretty good shape. not a lot to work on. no accessories needed
>> etc. not a bad situation to be in. after consistent prodding for gift
>> ideas, i have reverted back to an old idea of switch the sam over from
>> silver sidepulls to centerpulls.  far from a necessary swap, but something
>> to think about and do.  my understanding is that the good ones can stop
>> better than sidepulls and the aesthetics are nicer in my opinion.
>>
>> ive only ever run canti's, sidepulls or cheap vintage centerpulls. so,
>> what do you like and why?  im only familiar with the paul racers and the VO
>> ones? what else is out there i should consider. ORRR is this not worth it
>> at all and i should ask for money ill spend on groceries and paying bills.
>>
>> also, for context. this is for a sam running 700x50 tires w/o fenders.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
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> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>
> *
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* Carthusian motto
>
>
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[RBW] Re: centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[John Hawrylak]

+1 on Patrick comments.  I think the Dual Pivots are the best out there for 
caliper types.  I replaced the Dia Compes CP on my 75 Schwinn Voyaguer II 
with Tektro R559 (from RBW).  Much better than the CPs and easy to set up.

Use the $$$ some where else.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 5:48:19 PM UTC-5, drew wrote:

> so. it's nearing the holiday season. people are asking me what i want, and 
> this is usually where i ask for bikey stuff, but currently the bikes are 
> all in pretty good shape. not a lot to work on. no accessories needed etc. 
> not a bad situation to be in. after consistent prodding for gift ideas, i 
> have reverted back to an old idea of switch the sam over from silver 
> sidepulls to centerpulls.  far from a necessary swap, but something to 
> think about and do.  my understanding is that the good ones can stop better 
> than sidepulls and the aesthetics are nicer in my opinion. 
>
> ive only ever run canti's, sidepulls or cheap vintage centerpulls. so, 
> what do you like and why?  im only familiar with the paul racers and the VO 
> ones? what else is out there i should consider. ORRR is this not worth it 
> at all and i should ask for money ill spend on groceries and paying bills. 
>
> also, for context. this is for a sam running 700x50 tires w/o fenders. 
>

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Re: [RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Patrick Moore]

My experience, which is extensive but not necessarily definitive, is that
centerpulls can be as good as other types of brakes, but that they are not
by any means necessarily better, and that they have been, IME, sometimes
worse. IOW, the type of brake is less important than the quality of it and
hardware, and the quality of the setup.

Two anecdotes: first: I used a Dura Ace centerpull (rebranded Tourney, if
my source was right, who said that Shimano produced these for about 6
months circa 1976 until they decided to jump on the Campy sidepull
bandwagon. At any rate, I'd used these on a commuter (or rather, just one,
the front, since it was a fixie) and found them excellent. But when I used
the same brake on my erstwhile Motobecane Grand Record grocery getter, I
found that slowing from a fast downhill roll with a heavy load was fraught
with peril -- salmon pads; squeezing harder didn't get more braking. I
replaced it with a dual pivot and felt much more secure.

Second: Preliminary: "good" qualifying "brake" involves not only friction
force for a given hand pressure, but also ultimate braking force, and also
modulation. Top line V brakes are as powerful as anything not hydraulic,
but they don't modulate as well as other types. Ditto cable disks. OTOH,
many low profile cantis are just weak, and the Road version of the BB7 that
I used was as useless, no more and no less, as the professionally set up
Mafac cantis (longer arm Tandem version in front) on the Herse (yes,
salmons).

Point of anecdote: in the light of the above, the *best* brakes I ever used
were IRD high profile cantis set up by Riv staff on my erstwhile Sam Hill:
as powerful as V brakes, modulated better than anything else I've used.

Overall point: don't sweat the kind of brake unless what you are using is
ineffective. Save you Xmas points for something useful like leather or
tweed fender flaps (or a pair of $500 plastic sunglasses). *Just* kidding
about the flaps and glasses, but you get my point.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 3:48 PM, drew  wrote:

> so. it's nearing the holiday season. people are asking me what i want, and
> this is usually where i ask for bikey stuff, but currently the bikes are
> all in pretty good shape. not a lot to work on. no accessories needed etc.
> not a bad situation to be in. after consistent prodding for gift ideas, i
> have reverted back to an old idea of switch the sam over from silver
> sidepulls to centerpulls.  far from a necessary swap, but something to
> think about and do.  my understanding is that the good ones can stop better
> than sidepulls and the aesthetics are nicer in my opinion.
>
> ive only ever run canti's, sidepulls or cheap vintage centerpulls. so,
> what do you like and why?  im only familiar with the paul racers and the VO
> ones? what else is out there i should consider. ORRR is this not worth it
> at all and i should ask for money ill spend on groceries and paying bills.
>
> also, for context. this is for a sam running 700x50 tires w/o fenders.
>
> --
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Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* Carthusian motto

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[RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[drew]

so. it's nearing the holiday season. people are asking me what i want, and 
this is usually where i ask for bikey stuff, but currently the bikes are 
all in pretty good shape. not a lot to work on. no accessories needed etc. 
not a bad situation to be in. after consistent prodding for gift ideas, i 
have reverted back to an old idea of switch the sam over from silver 
sidepulls to centerpulls.  far from a necessary swap, but something to 
think about and do.  my understanding is that the good ones can stop better 
than sidepulls and the aesthetics are nicer in my opinion. 

ive only ever run canti's, sidepulls or cheap vintage centerpulls. so, what 
do you like and why?  im only familiar with the paul racers and the VO 
ones? what else is out there i should consider. ORRR is this not worth it 
at all and i should ask for money ill spend on groceries and paying bills. 

also, for context. this is for a sam running 700x50 tires w/o fenders. 

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RE: [RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I have that Alpina crank on my Hilsen – it's a beauty.

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 4:35 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

Are you positive it was the XD ?   VO sold the Alpina/Cospea  . 
http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2008/07/suginos-best.html

The Alpina 2 is what is for sale these days, it's obviosly different but in 
what way besides rings I do not know.


On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 3:42:48 PM UTC-5, LBleriot wrote:
A few years back, some online sellers (Velo Orange?) sold polished Sugino XD 
cranksets. The same crank today comes with polished arms, but with matte 
aluminum chainrings. Does anyone have a polished crankset that they'd be 
willing to sell?
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[RBW] Re: So darn close...

[Zach Duval]

I'don't love to see/read how you did it. 

Thanks!

After putting the rear tire on first, I was quite optimistic. The front is the 
only place I have rubbing.

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[RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

[Garth]

Are you positive it was the XD ?   VO sold the Alpina/Cospea  . 
http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2008/07/suginos-best.html

The Alpina 2 is what is for sale these days, it's obviosly different but in 
what way besides rings I do not know. 


On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 3:42:48 PM UTC-5, LBleriot wrote:
>
> A few years back, some online sellers (Velo Orange?) sold polished Sugino 
> XD cranksets. The same crank today comes with polished arms, but with matte 
> aluminum chainrings. Does anyone have a polished crankset that they'd be 
> willing to sell?
>

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Re: [RBW] So darn close...

[Zach Duval]

Mafac Raids aren't cheap these days either...

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Re: [RBW] So darn close...

[Brian Campbell]

I would try a set of MAFAC Raid's before I spent the $$ on the Pauls. 

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[RBW] Re: So darn close...

[Philip Kim]

Zach, 

I've fit 650bx43 Bruce Gordons with fenders with SKS fenders and Paul 
Racers. These have more tire clearance than the Tektro 559s I'm assuming 
you're using.

I'll take a pic tonight of how I modified the fender to fit. Pretty easy to 
do with a hacksaw. The Sheldon fender nuts also help.


On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 3:48:33 PM UTC-5, Zach Duval wrote:
>
> After spending my morning trying to fit a pair of Surly Knards (650BX41, 
> low-profile knobbies) under VO Zeppelin fenders on my Sam, unsuccessfully, 
> I'm a bit flummoxed. I was really looking forward to this as a winter 
> set-up for lighter commute rides.
>
> Anyone think this combo could work with Paul Racers?
>
> On a side note: Why did Riv ever stop issuing canti-Sams?! 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: So darn close...

[Zed Martinez]

Got any calipers around to measure how big those Knards are with the 
knobbies? Be interested to know if they'd fit under my P55s on my Clem as 
wintery tires.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 3:48:33 PM UTC-5, Zach Duval wrote:
>
> After spending my morning trying to fit a pair of Surly Knards (650BX41, 
> low-profile knobbies) under VO Zeppelin fenders on my Sam, unsuccessfully, 
> I'm a bit flummoxed. I was really looking forward to this as a winter 
> set-up for lighter commute rides.
>
> Anyone think this combo could work with Paul Racers?
>
> On a side note: Why did Riv ever stop issuing canti-Sams?! 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] So darn close...

[Tim Gavin]

I found that Paul Racers have better fender + tire clearance than
Silver/R559 long-reach sidepulls.  Especially since the sidepull arms push
down on the fender when the brake is open/released.

However, the front Racer caliper doesn't open/release very far, even with
short pads that don't hit the fork legs.  I have to partially deflate my 38
mm Pari-Motos to get them past the Kool Stop Cross pads.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Zach Duval  wrote:

> After spending my morning trying to fit a pair of Surly Knards (650BX41,
> low-profile knobbies) under VO Zeppelin fenders on my Sam, unsuccessfully,
> I'm a bit flummoxed. I was really looking forward to this as a winter
> set-up for lighter commute rides.
>
> Anyone think this combo could work with Paul Racers?
>
> On a side note: Why did Riv ever stop issuing canti-Sams?!
>
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[RBW] Re: FS: Waterford Rivendell Road Standard/Custom

[Ryan Fleming]

I think it is a 1996/1997 and the $1350 asking price is about the same as 
it was then  (1.2-1.35K). Nice as the frame is,I don't believe it's a 
custom and  $1350 might be a big ask... 

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 6:56:31 AM UTC-6, Fullylugged wrote:
>
> Nice looking bike. You can date it by the serial # on the bottom bracket. 
> The usual Waterford dating method is used.  Yours has no head tube 
> extension and appears to have a level TT, so an earlier date might be 
> right. Possibly repainted along the way, because it has later DT decals.

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[RBW] So darn close...

[Zach Duval]

After spending my morning trying to fit a pair of Surly Knards (650BX41, 
low-profile knobbies) under VO Zeppelin fenders on my Sam, unsuccessfully, I'm 
a bit flummoxed. I was really looking forward to this as a winter set-up for 
lighter commute rides.

Anyone think this combo could work with Paul Racers?

On a side note: Why did Riv ever stop issuing canti-Sams?! 

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[RBW] Re: Jingle Bell Betty

[Jon Dukeman in the foothills of Colorado]

Now That's getting into the holiday spirit.
Great memories for the kids..and the grown-up kids.
Thanks for sharing!

>
>>

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[RBW] Polished Sugino Crankset

[LBleriot]

A few years back, some online sellers (Velo Orange?) sold polished Sugino 
XD cranksets. The same crank today comes with polished arms, but with matte 
aluminum chainrings. Does anyone have a polished crankset that they'd be 
willing to sell?

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[RBW] Re: Was a 55cm double top tube Hillborne ever made?

['Bikie#4646' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The main difference between my (old) 56cm double TT and my (new) 55 cm 
single TT Sams are that I used to be able to grasp the lower TT to lift the 
bike without worrying about the frame pump, which I used to place between 
the TT's! Actually, my original was first generation and had a "made to a 
price" quality to the brazing and the paint. When Riv raised the price, my 
guess is that they had Waterford try harder. My new one is as aesthetically 
as nice as my Atlantis, IMHO.

Paul Germain
Midlothian

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 3:00:48 PM UTC-5, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> A second top tube provides an added canine safety feature if:
> You have dismounted and are using the bike to block a charging dog. 
> The extra TT makes it that much harder for the dog to leap through your 
> frame and latch onto your leg , especially if you have two waterbottle 
> cages and a frame pump on the bike!
> I'm joking of course.
>  
>

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Garth]

 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

the law argument is that most states don't require motorcycle helmets.  I 
also don't know a surgeon who would ever own a motorcycle - they hate them 
because they have to stop and render aid at every one, but they all ride 
bikes. . It ends up being about common sense.  I would vote in favor of a 
helmet law.  

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell Custom, MB-1, and Co-Motion For Sale

[flashman88]

I have updated prices based on feedback from the group.

On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 1:36:24 PM UTC-8, flashman88 wrote:
>
> I am helping sell a few bike from my brother-in-laws estate. He was a bike 
> builder and welder for many years in the Eugene area for Co-Motion. I am 
> hoping to find a home for at least one of his bikes through this group, 
> hopefully more. I have original paperwork for the build of the Rivendell 
> from 1999. Here are the basic spec's on ea. bike and a link to a few 
> pictures. I am in the Bay Area in Marin.
>  
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/41683676@N07/
>  
>
> Rivendell 1999- $2,200
>
> custom built by Joe Stark with custom Joe Bell paint 56.5cm seat tube, 
> 55.5cm top tube. Brooks B17 saddle, Dura-ace shift and brakes! Chris King 
> hubs and Head set.
>
>  
>
> Bridgestone- $1,800
>
> MB1 with custom fork& custom paint job! 19.5 inch frame, Chris King 
> headset. XTR group, but with friction shifter on mustache bar!! Tubus rear 
> rack
>
> Co-Motion- $1,200
>
> custom fixie! 55.5cm seat tube, 56cm T.T. Full Campy Record Pista group, 
> Chris King Headset
>  
> Thanks,
> Dave
>  
>  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Forget your Sackvilles; the cool load carrier is a hacked Lands' End tote. Also, Kojaks versus Marathons.

[Patrick Moore]

That is so odd. My Racers were old; can the casing or tread deteriorate so
that the tire rolls worse?

I know it's not in my imagination! The first ride on the Kojaks was very
different: certainly it felt faster. (Once again, I have the image of
rubbing brake blocks when thinking of how the Racers rode, and this even
when pumped hard -- as well as soft). The Kojaks also feel smoother.

Now, the Kojaks *do* squirm when cornering, but then, I ride fixed, so I
don't corner very hard.

Again, the Kojaks are "B" tires, not "A" ones.

I did replace tubes, too, but then the new tubes seem the same as the old
ones -- just plain old generic $5 tubes.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 2:28 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> I have the opposite experience from Patrick on my 20-inch-wheel Bike
> Friday. I sold him my Kojaks because they felt too narrow and squirrely to
> me, and replaced them with Marathon Racers. The ride feels cushier and more
> stable now, and I don't ride fast enough to know or care if they're
> not-fast.
>
> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 5:46:16 PM UTC-8, Lynne Cooney wrote:
>>
>> I have Marathons on my Brompton and don't have any issues with the ride.
>> I might try Kojaks one day, though.
>>
>> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 4:17:07 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> A cheap ass alternative to buying (1) rack or (2) Sackville, Large
>>> methods for carrying grocery loads of more than 20 lb on the Hon Solo. The
>>> bag is made from Baggins-but-not-Sackville-quality canvas and can, as to
>>> mere volume, hold two (2) full-but-not-bulging paper grocery sacks. Today's
>>> load was 23 lb total (bulk was 12 pack of IPA) and it was entirely docile
>>> -- no worse than the same load in a Sackville Medium, if you could get a 12
>>> pack in a Medium -- I've not used a Large.
>>>
>>> The bottom sags onto the rear fender -- but the struts are
>>> serendipitously placed for this -- and God willing I'll add a plywood or
>>> particle board base in the interior of the bag.
>>>
>>> The attachment hack is designed so that the bag can very quickly be
>>> adapted to its original purpose as a hand tote.
>>>
>>> The checkout clerk peered over the counter, examined the bag closely,
>>> and exclaimed, "Ingenious!"
>>>
>>> I daresay I could get away with at least 30 lb in the thing. This is for
>>> short distances only; I have other bikes with racks and panniers for longer
>>> loaded trips.
>>>
>>> Interesting: the 20" (406 mm bsd)-wheeled Solo is noticeably more
>>> convenient to roll through the aisles -- I had not anticipated this benefit.
>>>
>>> Segwaying on: I finally got around to replacing the absolutely-horrible
>>> Marathon Racers with Kojaks - 1.35s (thanks to Joe). The Kojaks are not by
>>> any means Elk Passes or P Roubaix, but -- even with (1) tubes and (2)
>>> sealant -- both said to increase rolling resistance and "stiffness of feel"
>>> -- the difference is night and day. The bike is no longer a chore and an
>>> annoyance to ride, as it very definitely was with the Marathons. What
>>> horrible tires those were!
>>>
>>> I'll try the Lands' End hack for a while before I buy a 20" wheel rack.
>>> So far, so good.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>>> Other professional writing services.
>>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>>
>>> *
>>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
>>> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
>>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>>
>>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* Carthusian motto
>>>
>>>
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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* Carthusian motto

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, R Michaels wrote:
>
> I'm fairly new to this but have been unable to find the Choco-stache bars 
> you are referring to.  Where can I find them?
> R.
>
>>
>>>
As far as I know, the 'new' Joe Appaloosa prototype, and the 
photos circulating of it here and from Riv, are the only place you'll 
currently find it.   Unless I missed something, they even managed to keep 
this secret up until the Blug pre-sale announcement.   Many of us are 
hoping that they'll be available separately some day, but I doubt that will 
be before the complete bikes arrive.   Total speculation here, but I 
also assume that the separate ones will be fillet brazed with the Nitto 
dull-brite finish, while the complete ones will be tig welded  - much like 
the difference between the regular and Clem boscos.  I'm HOPING that there 
will be alternative widths, too.

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[RBW] Re: No new Cheviots until December 2016!

[Lynne Cooney]

I wound up that way because the shop either did not know better or did not 
care. Neither is a good answer. It would be one thing if I had insisted on 
the tire/fender combo used, but they picked it out, not me. I personally 
love SKS fenders, and the breakaway doohickeys are awesome. I've never had 
any deployed because I am not an aggressive rider. If I had insisted on SKS 
(and I didn't, and that part is my fault), the clearance problem still 
would have existed. But at least the doohickeys would be there!

I have SKS fenders that I can install myself -- but I'm missing one bolt, 
of course. So not yet.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 9:31:08 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I don't know how you originally got set up with very little clearance 
> between tire and fender, but that's what the "sticks" warning was about. 
> Back in the day I had a Rivendell Romulus which I tried to fenderize to 
> limited success..the clearance at the front caliper brake was not good. It 
> had SKS fenders with those little plastic breakaway doohickeys on the fork, 
> and sticks got in there and popped the breakaways a couple times (the 
> fender stays pop out of their mounts instead of the fender holding fast and 
> jamming the stick between tire and fender). I assume you now have decent 
> clearance with the current setup.

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[RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[iamkeith]

Wow, Bill! That was very nice of you, and much appreciated.   If you want 
to try to send me a snapshot of the sketches through PM, that would be 
great.  I probably should have done this myself, and maybe still will - now 
that you've made me feel lazy and inadequate.   In the meantime,  I'll take 
some time and consider the implications of the numbers you came up 
with. 

Here's an elevation shot of my wife's 50cm Ram.   Included more for others 
who might be now or someday be following this conversation with the same 
questions and decision to make, than for you.  Saddle height = 67.33cm, 
using 170mm cranks.  She rides mostly on the top of the bars.  The PBH I 
have recorded for her is 75.5cm but, based on this saddle height which was 
set after lots of riding time and experimentation, it seems like it should 
be more like 78cm.  Not sure how I'd re-measure that without giving away a 
surprise.  Hmmm





On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 11:29:52 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

> Keith
>
> I went ahead and drew a 50cm Rambouillet, with a 46 Appaloosa and a 51 
> Appaloosa on top of it.  The three drawings all have ground zero at the 
> center of the BB.  I can send you pictures, but photos of pencil on white 
> paper don't show up all that well.  At any rate, I can tell you standover 
> height now.  
>
> With identical 310mm radius tires (26x1.25), the standover of the 46 
> Appaloosa is about 3cm lower at the back of the top tube.  At the front of 
> the top tube, the 46 Appaloosa is about 1.2cm lower.  At the middle of the 
> top tube, the Appaloosa is about 2.1cm lower.  
>
> If you put 25mm larger tires on the 46 Appaloosa, then at the back of the 
> top tube, the 46 Appaloosa would still be about 5mm lower.  At the front of 
> the TT, the Appaloosa would be about 1.3cm higher than the Ram.  At the 
> middle of the top tube, the 46cm Appaloosa would be about 4mm higher.
>
> The insertion point for the handlebars also differ somewhat.  The 
> insertion point for the handlebar stem on the Appaloosa is about 2.4cm 
> farther away, and about 1.2cm lower, relative to the Ram.  So, if your 
> handlebars have a lot more rise and also have a lot more sweep back (like 
> the choco-moose bars) then the rider will still be significantly more 
> upright on the bike than on the Ram.  You would almost certainly not run 
> drop bars on the 46 Appaloosa.  It's too low and too far away.  The bike is 
> ideal for swept back handlebars.  
>
> I didn't finish the 51 Appaloosa because it's quite a bit bigger.  It will 
> be about 5cm taller everywhere along its Top Tube than the 46 will be.  So, 
> if your wife has more than 2" of standover clearance, and is willing to 
> sacrifice a full 2", then consider the 51.  I haven't seen her Ram setup, 
> but it sounds to me like the 51 will be quite a bit too big.  The 46 will 
> have a full 35mm MORE seatpost showing than the Ram does, which you've said 
> bums you out.  
>
> Bill 
>
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 2:08:36 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I guess I would start off with stating the obvious that small bikes with 
>> large tires are incredibly difficult to design and fit.  That's a fact.  
>> But I'm not suggesting anything about which size Appaloosa you should buy 
>> your wife.  I only wanted to bottom out on what about the BB drop had 
>> thrown you for a loop.  It sounds like it would be useful to draw your four 
>> bikes all on top of each other on a big piece of paper.  
>>
>> 1.  Rambouillet
>> 2.  XO-1
>> 3.  46 Appa
>> 4.  51 Appa
>>
>> Grant did a great step by step frame drawing exercise on the predecessor 
>> of the BLUG.  Maybe somebody has it archived.  That would be a great 
>> exercise for you to walk through, possibly.  Otherwise, if you are eager to 
>> buy an Appaloosa on the pre-sale, then at least talk it over with Riv.  Let 
>> me know if you want help drawing your bikes.  
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 11:32:39 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess I get that explanation.  And that would probably suggest that 
>>> the 46 might be the best choice.  The on-the-bike fit would feel familiar, 
>>> even though the seatpost would be extended a *lot* further than I 
>>> currently perceive as "correct," and she'd be higher in the air (the whole 
>>> point of doing this would be specifically to get her on significantly 
>>> fatter tires, so she can carry more and ride more comfortably on rougher 
>>> roads), and there would also be way more standover clearance than she 
>>> needs. Hopefully, the sloped top tube would yield a higher headtube than 
>>> the 50 Ram, so that her stem could even extend a little less.  The 51, on 
>>> the other hand, might not give her *enough* standover clearance.  Since 
>>> there are (intentionally?) no standover heights listed, its hard to know 
>>> for sure.  You guys who can 

Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Edwin W]

Tim,

You wrote about car safety: "because cars have four wheels and are good at 
staying on them." I agree, but still 30,000 people die in car wrecks every year 
and 280,000 get head injuries from cars. Each year. 

Still, some things are safer than others. Biking in the Netherlands is safer 
than most biking in the U.S. And some neighborhoods and streets on Nashville, 
where I live, are safer than others. 

Sometimes with a helmet,

Edwin

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Tim Gavin]

Edwin -- I agree with your suggestions, but not with the "racer"
qualification.

Instead of "driving/riding like a racer", I'd say "driving/riding
aggressively", or more specifically "driving/riding with a reasonable
suspicion of landing on one's head".

Racing driving, stunt driving, etc, are reasonable situations to wear a
helmet in a car.  But there aren't too many more situations because cars
have four wheels and are good at staying on them.  A notable exception
would be winter storms; snow and ice cause plenty of cars on their sides or
tops.
Most of us simply won't drive in those dangerous situations, and if you've
ignored common sense enough to drive in a winter storm, I doubt you'd have
the common sense or forethought to wear a helmet.

Bicycle riding, however, leaves one much more likely to land on one's
head.  Bicycles fall over by nature.  Even when riding around town, a
surprise low-speed accident with a careless auto, bicycle, pedestrian,
pothole, or animal could cause you to fall over and bonk your head.  Of
course, aggressive riding raises the risk, but it doesn't need to be
"racing" to be aggressive/high risk behavior.
The likelihood of a fall may be very low due to your riding style, safety
(lighting/mirrors/reflective), behavior, time of day, and other factors.
But it's still a lot more likely than if you were riding a four wheel
bicycle that doesn't tip over on its own, and more likely than if you were
just walking, showering, shaving, fly fishing, or whatever.

At least, that's the reasoning I use to always wear a helmet.  High risk =
cover your dome.
When I flew aircraft in the military I wore a helmet.  When I operate my
motorcycle, I wear a helmet.  When I ride my bike, I wear a helmet.  Also,
I ride aggressively (aka, "like an enthusiastic clutz").


I don't believe that helmet should be required by law when cycling, because
it discourages riding.
But, I believe that all riders should be smart enough to wear a helmet.
I also believe that organizers of cycling events are correct to require
helmet use in order to participate.

Tim


On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Edwin W  wrote:

> The way I think about it is this (supported by the article): if you get in
> a wreck, a helmet will probably help.
> Then I think of these questions:
> Do you think wearing a helmet when walking would make you more safe, less
> safe, or about the same?
> Do you think wearing a helmet when driving (as the pro racers do) make you
> more safe, less safe, or about the same?
>
> Honestly, I think wearing a helmet in all three forms of transportation
> would make you (some bit) safer. But would you EVER, REALLY wear a helmet
> when driving? Even in the MOST dangerous types of driving (at dusk, in the
> rain, on a mountain road/crowded expressway, etc..). No, of course not!
> Helmets are not for transportation driving, they are for racing or driving
> like a racer. and that is how I think about helmets with biking. If you are
> racing or biking like a racer, think about a helmet, like they do.
>
> The vague suggestions:
> If you are biking faster than 30mph, consider a helmet.
> If you are biking with drop bars, consider a helmet.
> If the cars around you are all close and going faster than 30mph, consider
> a helmet.
>
> Otherwise, it is just like walking and driving - sure it will make you a
> bit safer, but you wouldn't ACTUALLY wear a helmet when doing those things!
>
> All things in moderation,
>
> Edwin
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

why listen to published medical facts researched and peer reviewed by the 
American College of Surgeons when you can make pointless analogies 
(rhetorical question)

I would say the fact that 75% of traumatic brain injuries occurred in 
riders not wear helmets is alone significant even without the other 
supporting statistics.  
One thing for sure, wearing a helmet makes you 150% smarter.  

btw, not once have I been on a bike and had an accident with a vehicle, but 
lost count of the number of times I've been intentionally harassed by a 
vehicle.  

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Edwin W]

The way I think about it is this (supported by the article): if you get in 
a wreck, a helmet will probably help.
Then I think of these questions:
Do you think wearing a helmet when walking would make you more safe, less 
safe, or about the same?
Do you think wearing a helmet when driving (as the pro racers do) make you 
more safe, less safe, or about the same?

Honestly, I think wearing a helmet in all three forms of transportation 
would make you (some bit) safer. But would you EVER, REALLY wear a helmet 
when driving? Even in the MOST dangerous types of driving (at dusk, in the 
rain, on a mountain road/crowded expressway, etc..). No, of course not! 
Helmets are not for transportation driving, they are for racing or driving 
like a racer. and that is how I think about helmets with biking. If you are 
racing or biking like a racer, think about a helmet, like they do.

The vague suggestions:
If you are biking faster than 30mph, consider a helmet.
If you are biking with drop bars, consider a helmet.
If the cars around you are all close and going faster than 30mph, consider 
a helmet.

Otherwise, it is just like walking and driving - sure it will make you a 
bit safer, but you wouldn't ACTUALLY wear a helmet when doing those things!

All things in moderation,

Edwin

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[RBW] Re: No new Cheviots until December 2016!

[Philip Kim]

probably because it came with fenders.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 9:49:27 AM UTC-5, Lynne Cooney wrote:
>
> "Fastish" never happens. Never will. I ride to get places and I don't care 
> how long it takes. In fact, I prefer that it take longer. 
>
> Yes, it does have a much wider range than the Brompton, and honestly much 
> to wide for my use. I'm probably a good candidate for a 1x setup. 
>
>  sticks'?" ranting deleted>
>
> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 1:03:31 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> "Terrified" is not fun, and I can understand your trepidation after 
>> catching up on your story. I hope you got your Cheviot dialed in this 
>> weekend and can head out for a little ride Monday. Not that you asked, but 
>> I would recommend riding it like your Brompton with the focus on just 
>> getting the feel for the new bike. If you stay in the middle ring and just 
>> shift the rear derailer, you should have a wider range than what the 
>> Brommie provides. This process is what I use on all new-to-me bikes, just 
>> like breaking in a car. I find that I get a little nervous if I try to 
>> figure out all the new variables at once at a fastish clip. I need to go 
>> slow and adapt to the bike in steps, if that makes sense.
>>
>> Joe "yes you can pass me, I'm not racing" Bernard
>> Vallejo, CA.
>>
>> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 1:58:00 PM UTC-8, Lynne Cooney wrote:
>>
>>> Despite the absolute hell I have been through with mine, I'm glad I 
>>> snatched it up!
>>>
>>> I have new fenders (SKS) that I will be installing this weekend, and it 
>>> will finally be ridable. As is, I've been terrified every single ride.
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: No new Cheviots until December 2016!

[Joe Bernard]

I don't know how you originally got set up with very little clearance between 
tire and fender, but that's what the "sticks" warning was about. Back in the 
day I had a Rivendell Romulus which I tried to fenderize to limited 
success..the clearance at the front caliper brake was not good. It had SKS 
fenders with those little plastic breakaway doohickeys on the fork, and sticks 
got in there and popped the breakaways a couple times (the fender stays pop out 
of their mounts instead of the fender holding fast and jamming the stick 
between tire and fender). I assume you now have decent clearance with the 
current setup.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[R Michaels]

I'm fairly new to this but have been unable to find the Choco-stache bars 
you are referring to.  Where can I find them?
R.

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 3:43:28 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>
> Those are Choco-staches, if you ask me. Just a further iteration on the 
> 'stache bars. And nothing wrong with that, at all. I bet they would be 
> comfy with road levers up at the curves, and/or some interruptors close in 
> to the center. 
>
> Still on Joe, were frame specs ever posted up? I'm wondering what the 
> chainstay length is, and the wheelbase on a 62cm frame. Thanks! Just 
> curious, as I've been riding my QuickBeam with 45.5 cm from center of BB to 
> center of rear axle, and it rides superbly.
>
> - Andrew, Berkeley
>
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 6:08:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>>
>> I went back to riv HQ today to try out the proto-joe. It's officially 
>> a size too small for me, but it was fun to ride around. I took a bunch 
>> of photos of the new bar, hoping to better show the shape. (All 
>> uploaded, unedited, link below.) For myself, I expect I'll be mounting 
>> the shifters and brakes further forward, and I'm not superkeen on the 
>> grips. The bar tape was added last weekend by Grant. 
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/phlatphrog/albums/72157661494430745 
>>
>> I forgot to ask about the butterscotch/sky blue color samples. I 
>> wanted to view them in person, but I completely forgot when I was at 
>> the shop. Duh. 
>>
>> cheerios 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Joe Broach]

And, mea culpa, I just broke my own rule of reading the whole thread before
commenting. I see others pointed this out already and didn't mean to pile
on Eric. I appreciated the link.  -joe in pdx

Caveat lector. Sent from a phone.
On Nov 23, 2015 9:00 AM, "Joe Broach"  wrote:

> On Nov 23, 2015 6:16 AM, "Eric Norris"  wrote:
> >
> > Well said, Steve. Nobody is suggesting mandatory helmets--on bikes, in
> the shower, or elsewhere.
>
> Yes they are--in the article you linked to, the paper authors are quoted
> "As a result of their findings, Drs. Haider and Joseph said that the next
> step is to create injury prevention programs to increase helmet use among
> bicyclists, to manufacture better helmets, and to develop and enforce
> stricter laws for helmet use."
>
> Interesting study design and findings, but their recommendations are
> unfortunate.
>
> Best,
> joe in pdx or
>
> > Eric N
> > www.CampyOnly.com
> > CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
> > Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
> >
> > On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> >
> >> When did mandatory helmet laws enter this discussion?  I didn't read
> the article all that closely, but the gist of it as I recall it is that the
> wearing of helmets was in fact effective in the cases cited.  That itself
> has been called in question in the past, and it is worthwhile attempting to
> answer it.  And within that context, the introduction of mandatory helmet
> laws/helmet wars is an irrelevant distraction.  One can be for the wearing
> of helmets but against mandatory helmet laws; I am and I know many others
> who feel the same way.  In fact, although I know many, many helmet users I
> don't know anyone who favors criminalizing the not wearing of them.
> >>
> >> On 11/23/2015 12:19 AM, Doug Williams wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hey, I wear my helmet all the time, but…The article fails to mention
> several OTHER important facts. Because of this, the study simply can’t be
> taken seriously. You simply can’t pick only the facts that support your
> desired conclusion; you must weigh all the facts. Those advocating helmet
> laws can't ignore other inconvenient facts that don’t support their
> conclusion. That’s not how science works, and anyone who ignores
> established and pertinent facts when making their conclusion shouldn’t be
> taken seriously. Let’s start by granting their single fact that helmets may
> reduce injuries in the event of a crash. This single fact has to be weighed
> against the other proven facts before we can arrive at a conclusion that
> mandatory helmet laws save lives.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fact 1: Mandatory Helmet Laws reduced ridership. This has been proven
> over and over again in study after study.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fact 2: Bicycling in general is safer with more bicycles on the road.
> Drivers get used to seeing bicycles and become accustomed to them. The
> drivers then act more safely around bicycles. This is also well documented.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fact 3: Bicycling is much safer than they represent when the risk of
> bicycle injury is weighed against other known risks. Many, many, more
> people would be saved by mandatory helmet laws for pedestrians and
> motorists. Around 4,500 pedestrians and 45,000 motorists are killed in
> accidents each year in the U.S. The percentage of these people who would
> have reduced injuries with a helmet is similar to that for bicyclists. Why
> not save these people as well? I’ll take these people seriously when they
> propose a UNIVERSAL helmet law for everyone instead of just for bicyclists.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fact 4: Around 600 bicyclists die each year in the U.S. but well over
> 300,000 die of obesity and lack of exercise related diseases. The reduced
> ridership caused by mandatory helmet laws would cause more deaths from
> reduced health status than would be saved by helmets.
> >>>
> >>> All “studies” that argue for mandatory helmet laws ignore the above
> facts. Find me a study that doesn’t and then we can reopen the helmet wars.
> In the meantime…yawn.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 7:02:05 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
> 
>  Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it
> is perhaps of interest to some:
> 
>  https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider
> 
>  And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly
> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many
> times on this forum.
> 
>  --Eric Norris
>  campyo...@me.com
>  www.campyonly.com
>  campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
> 
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> >>

Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Joe Broach]

On Nov 23, 2015 6:16 AM, "Eric Norris"  wrote:
>
> Well said, Steve. Nobody is suggesting mandatory helmets--on bikes, in
the shower, or elsewhere.

Yes they are--in the article you linked to, the paper authors are quoted
"As a result of their findings, Drs. Haider and Joseph said that the next
step is to create injury prevention programs to increase helmet use among
bicyclists, to manufacture better helmets, and to develop and enforce
stricter laws for helmet use."

Interesting study design and findings, but their recommendations are
unfortunate.

Best,
joe in pdx or

> Eric N
> www.CampyOnly.com
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>
> On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
>> When did mandatory helmet laws enter this discussion?  I didn't read the
article all that closely, but the gist of it as I recall it is that the
wearing of helmets was in fact effective in the cases cited.  That itself
has been called in question in the past, and it is worthwhile attempting to
answer it.  And within that context, the introduction of mandatory helmet
laws/helmet wars is an irrelevant distraction.  One can be for the wearing
of helmets but against mandatory helmet laws; I am and I know many others
who feel the same way.  In fact, although I know many, many helmet users I
don't know anyone who favors criminalizing the not wearing of them.
>>
>> On 11/23/2015 12:19 AM, Doug Williams wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey, I wear my helmet all the time, but…The article fails to mention
several OTHER important facts. Because of this, the study simply can’t be
taken seriously. You simply can’t pick only the facts that support your
desired conclusion; you must weigh all the facts. Those advocating helmet
laws can't ignore other inconvenient facts that don’t support their
conclusion. That’s not how science works, and anyone who ignores
established and pertinent facts when making their conclusion shouldn’t be
taken seriously. Let’s start by granting their single fact that helmets may
reduce injuries in the event of a crash. This single fact has to be weighed
against the other proven facts before we can arrive at a conclusion that
mandatory helmet laws save lives.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fact 1: Mandatory Helmet Laws reduced ridership. This has been proven
over and over again in study after study.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fact 2: Bicycling in general is safer with more bicycles on the road.
Drivers get used to seeing bicycles and become accustomed to them. The
drivers then act more safely around bicycles. This is also well documented.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fact 3: Bicycling is much safer than they represent when the risk of
bicycle injury is weighed against other known risks. Many, many, more
people would be saved by mandatory helmet laws for pedestrians and
motorists. Around 4,500 pedestrians and 45,000 motorists are killed in
accidents each year in the U.S. The percentage of these people who would
have reduced injuries with a helmet is similar to that for bicyclists. Why
not save these people as well? I’ll take these people seriously when they
propose a UNIVERSAL helmet law for everyone instead of just for bicyclists.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fact 4: Around 600 bicyclists die each year in the U.S. but well over
300,000 die of obesity and lack of exercise related diseases. The reduced
ridership caused by mandatory helmet laws would cause more deaths from
reduced health status than would be saved by helmets.
>>>
>>> All “studies” that argue for mandatory helmet laws ignore the above
facts. Find me a study that doesn’t and then we can reopen the helmet wars.
In the meantime…yawn.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 7:02:05 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:

 Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it
is perhaps of interest to some:

 https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider

 And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly
established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many
times on this forum.

 --Eric Norris
 campyo...@me.com
 www.campyonly.com
 campyonlyguy.blogspot.com

>>> --
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Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
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RE: [RBW] Re: Let's See Some Clem/Clementine Pics

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

GREAT pic!

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of El Sapo
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 8:17 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Re: Let's See Some Clem/Clementine Pics

I had to try editing one shot

On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 9:30:06 AM UTC-8, RDS wrote:
I was just curious to see how all of the colors turned out for each model.  
Please, let's see some pics whether bike or frame.
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RE: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

The Tektros come only in 23.8 diameter.  The Dia-Compes come in both 23.8 and 
22.2 (trad MTB).  But the Dia-Compes won't pull enough cable for V-brakes (if 
that's what you're contemplating on your Joe App).  Paul used to make an 
inverse lever that would pull enough for V-brakes, which you might find 
somewhere, but my recollection is that they were 23.8mm.

So maybe the inverse levers wouldn't work.

From: Allingham II, Thomas J (WIL)
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:40 AM
To: 'rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

Inverse levers should work.  VO currently has Tektro modern-looking ones:  
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/tektro-rx4-1-silver-inverse-brake-levers.html
  They also have more vintage looking Dia-Compe versions, here:  
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/dia-compe-inverse-brake-levers-22-2.html


From: 
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gavin
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:47 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

Kai-

I was thinking about that as I chopped that picture together (where would the 
cable housings go?).

You're correct that MTB levers leave the cable about an inch from the bar.  
I've never seen a flat-bar lever that has the cable exit along the bar.

In order to use interrupters with MTB levers, it looks like you'd have to leave 
the cable housing exposed, and try to keep it offset from the grip area.  
Perhaps a spacer/standoff near the interrupter levers?

Tim

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Kainalu 
mailto:kaiviers...@gmail.com>> wrote:
About mountain style levers and interrupters, is there such a thing as an 
"aero" mountain brake lever, specifically one where the housing run goes under 
the bar tape? I've looked, and they don't appear to exist. I think the 
albastache looks like a great bar, and these ones even better (especially since 
they take a mountain lever, which I prefer), but with the albastache I'm left 
wondering if I could reconfigure it to use the mountain levers on the back end 
of the sweep and also have that forward mounted lever like everyone seems to 
love on theirs. It just seems that the brake cables would be problematic 
between the two levers, in the sense that they'd be in the way of otherwise 
comfy fingers.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY
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RE: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Inverse levers should work.  VO currently has Tektro modern-looking ones:  
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/tektro-rx4-1-silver-inverse-brake-levers.html
  They also have more vintage looking Dia-Compe versions, here:  
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/dia-compe-inverse-brake-levers-22-2.html

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Gavin
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:47 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

Kai-

I was thinking about that as I chopped that picture together (where would the 
cable housings go?).

You're correct that MTB levers leave the cable about an inch from the bar.  
I've never seen a flat-bar lever that has the cable exit along the bar.

In order to use interrupters with MTB levers, it looks like you'd have to leave 
the cable housing exposed, and try to keep it offset from the grip area.  
Perhaps a spacer/standoff near the interrupter levers?

Tim

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Kainalu 
mailto:kaiviers...@gmail.com>> wrote:
About mountain style levers and interrupters, is there such a thing as an 
"aero" mountain brake lever, specifically one where the housing run goes under 
the bar tape? I've looked, and they don't appear to exist. I think the 
albastache looks like a great bar, and these ones even better (especially since 
they take a mountain lever, which I prefer), but with the albastache I'm left 
wondering if I could reconfigure it to use the mountain levers on the back end 
of the sweep and also have that forward mounted lever like everyone seems to 
love on theirs. It just seems that the brake cables would be problematic 
between the two levers, in the sense that they'd be in the way of otherwise 
comfy fingers.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY
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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[EGNolan]

You COULD use the bar-end "aero" brake levers like this: 
http://www.jensonusa.com/!1S-OnkIcQoZUhqOqYmFDTw!/Tektro-RX-41-Reverse-Brake-Levers?utm_source=FRGL&utm_medium=organic&gclid=Cj0KEQiAj8uyBRDawI3XhYqOy4gBEiQAl8BJbWK15LEHPFsxh4qEak1Upkb3EOetXzHeyCVProE1jAIaAj9v8P8HAQ
 but 
they ain't mountain levers.

Best,
Eric
Indpls

>
>

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Re: [RBW] Hope You Heal Soon

[Braxton Colagross]

Motorcycle safety groups call this the "left hook." 

On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 5:11:25 PM UTC-8, Matthew J wrote:
>
> Bad news and unfortunately all too typical.
>
> Left turning cars into cyclists and pedestrians who have the right or way 
> are the number one cause of serious injury and deadly encounters us 
> non-mechanized travelers have with autos.
>
> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 6:16:25 PM UTC-6, dougP wrote:
>>
>> Wow!  That sounds like a pretty hairy crash.  I had to chuckle at his 
>> observation that all the bones would heal at the same time.  Good luck with 
>> the rehab.
>>
>> dougP
>>
>> On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 3:34:30 PM UTC-8, truegolden wrote:
>>>
>>> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/11/21/i-was-lucky-but-still/
>>>  
>>> I did not see this posted here today but saw it on the ibob list.
>>> Apologies if it was posted and this is a duplicate.
>>>  
>>> Adding my prayers for healing and strength to bear up during the process 
>>> for Jan as well as his family
>>> during the holidays.
>>>  
>>> Paul in Dallas
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Let's See Some Clem/Clementine Pics

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Thanks all for posting these photos! It's great to see the different colors 
and the various build concepts -- very inspiring!

Here's a set of pictures of the build progress on my 52 grey Clem frame; 
it's gotten to a state where it now looks like a bike. I still need to 
decide on the rest of the drivetrain -- I have an 8-speed 12-26 cassette in 
the rear (want to go the friction route), thinking that I'd get the Sugino 
40/26 double, but then the 1x setups that I'm seeing intrigue 
me. Decisions, decisions!

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/30490050@N04/albums/72157659062048963

Bob E

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

next up, the usefulness of blinkies in giving drivers an extra 30 seconds 
alert to your presence on the road

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 9:51:55 AM UTC-6, Montclair BobbyB wrote:
>
> Whew, I was so afraid I would miss the annual helmet discussion... This 
> year is no different and I am still at the same conclusion.  I will 
> continue to choose to wear my helmet (most of the time), and be grateful I 
> have a choice to ride through town wearing only a baseball cap (and equally 
> grateful when I arrive home safely). 
>
> Thankful to live and ride. 
>
> Happy Thanksgiving to all, we have much to be grateful for. 😎☀️🚴🏻

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

Been on my helmet 3 times.  One flip at 18mph.  All three times, my helmet 
protected my face and scalp from serious road rash.  

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 8:37:54 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> I disagree.  I've had several crashes over the years, all due to road 
> hazards: sand, eroded roots, potholes, cracks, black ice  -- not one of 
> which involved cars and none of which would have been mitigated in any 
> way by having more cyclists on the road.  And several people I know were 
> involved in crashes because of other cyclists: riders who stopped dead 
> with no warning while riding in the midst of a large group, riders who 
> rode into other riders, people who for no known reason just crashed 
> right in front of others causing a multi-bike pileup. 
>
> If you're going down, head protection is far more likely to help than to 
> hurt.  The next time you're hitting the asphalt at 10 or 15 mph and you 
> hear your helmet hitting the pavement and then sliding along the 
> asphalt, ask yourself "Would I rather be sliding on my skin than on the 
> helmet right now?" 
>
> On 11/23/2015 08:34 AM, Philip Kim wrote: 
> > I think as more bicycles are on the road, helmets will become less 
> > necessary. I think a better way to promote bicycling is to have a 
> > traffic system where bicycles and cars don't share the same road, 
> > physically and psychologically. A lot of my friends won't ride bikes 
> > in the city for this reason. 
> > 
> > But in DC, as long as there's a law designating a "3 ft minimum to 
> > pass" for those driving 2 tons of metal and are usually texting or 
> > using facebook on their phone, I will keep wearing my helmet. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

it's hard to do 12 mph in the shower, but falling off one's bike is 
frequent enough to be a likelihood.  

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 8:16:27 AM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Well said, Steve. Nobody is suggesting mandatory helmets--on bikes, in the 
> shower, or elsewhere. 
>
> Eric N
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>
>

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[RBW] Re: No new Cheviots until December 2016!

[Lynne Cooney]

One would think the shop would actually think about how truly ridiculous it 
was to hand someone a bike with fat-ish tires and advise that it's not safe 
to ride over a stick.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:59:00 AM UTC-8, Wayne Naha wrote:
>
> Ride over ALL the sticks!  That's what fat tires are for!
>
> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 9:49:27 AM UTC-5, Lynne Cooney wrote:
>>
>>
>> > sticks'?" ranting deleted>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Montclair BobbyB]

Whew, I was so afraid I would miss the annual helmet discussion... This year is 
no different and I am still at the same conclusion.  I will continue to choose 
to wear my helmet (most of the time), and be grateful I have a choice to ride 
through town wearing only a baseball cap (and equally grateful when I arrive 
home safely). 

Thankful to live and ride. 

Happy Thanksgiving to all, we have much to be grateful for. 😎☀️🚴🏻

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Tim Gavin]

Kai-

I was thinking about that as I chopped that picture together (where would
the cable housings go?).

You're correct that MTB levers leave the cable about an inch from the bar.
I've never seen a flat-bar lever that has the cable exit along the bar.

In order to use interrupters with MTB levers, it looks like you'd have to
leave the cable housing exposed, and try to keep it offset from the grip
area.  Perhaps a spacer/standoff near the interrupter levers?

Tim

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Kainalu  wrote:

> About mountain style levers and interrupters, is there such a thing as an
> "aero" mountain brake lever, specifically one where the housing run goes
> under the bar tape? I've looked, and they don't appear to exist. I think
> the albastache looks like a great bar, and these ones even better
> (especially since they take a mountain lever, which I prefer), but with the
> albastache I'm left wondering if I could reconfigure it to use the mountain
> levers on the back end of the sweep and also have that forward mounted
> lever like everyone seems to love on theirs. It just seems that the brake
> cables would be problematic between the two levers, in the sense that
> they'd be in the way of otherwise comfy fingers.
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Kainalu]

About mountain style levers and interrupters, is there such a thing as an 
"aero" mountain brake lever, specifically one where the housing run goes under 
the bar tape? I've looked, and they don't appear to exist. I think the 
albastache looks like a great bar, and these ones even better (especially since 
they take a mountain lever, which I prefer), but with the albastache I'm left 
wondering if I could reconfigure it to use the mountain levers on the back end 
of the sweep and also have that forward mounted lever like everyone seems to 
love on theirs. It just seems that the brake cables would be problematic 
between the two levers, in the sense that they'd be in the way of otherwise 
comfy fingers.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/23/2015 10:19 AM, Eric Norris wrote:
Ok. I guess I mentally separated the results--a helmet protects your 
head when it hits the ground--from their suggestion that it would be a 
good idea to require the use of helmets. The former seems to be to be 
a fact-based conclusion, the latter an opinion.


Exactly.

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RE: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Now, now, boys and girls….

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Norris
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:17 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

... Or while taking a shower.

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

On Nov 23, 2015, at 6:39 AM, Steve Palincsar 
mailto:palin...@his.com>> wrote:
Irrelevant question.  We aren't discussing whether or not one should wear a 
helmet while driving in a car.
On 11/23/2015 09:30 AM, Lynne Cooney wrote:
This is just a question, not trying to stir up trouble. How many donors did you 
have from car occupants who also would have been saved by a helmet?

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:21:55 AM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
In that vein, here's a reply to the same post from a friend:

"Nicely said Eric.I too wear a helmet every time I'm on my bike! I definitely 
advocate wearing helmets for any type of riding. I worked in transplantation 
for 10 years and I assure you we had several donors because of the choice not 
to wear a helmet. I will never forget a donor we had who fell on a local bike 
path. I will never forget her because I saw her riding without her helmet while 
I was on the same bike path on my way home. I went home and was called back 
into work because we were transplanting her organs. :(.
Kelly"

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Eric Norris]

... Or while taking a shower.

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Nov 23, 2015, at 6:39 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> 
> Irrelevant question.  We aren't discussing whether or not one should wear a 
> helmet while driving in a car.
> 
>> On 11/23/2015 09:30 AM, Lynne Cooney wrote:
>> This is just a question, not trying to stir up trouble. How many donors did 
>> you have from car occupants who also would have been saved by a helmet?
>> 
>>> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:21:55 AM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>>> In that vein, here's a reply to the same post from a friend:
>>> 
>>> "Nicely said Eric.I too wear a helmet every time I'm on my bike! I 
>>> definitely advocate wearing helmets for any type of riding. I worked in 
>>> transplantation for 10 years and I assure you we had several donors because 
>>> of the choice not to wear a helmet. I will never forget a donor we had who 
>>> fell on a local bike path. I will never forget her because I saw her riding 
>>> without her helmet while I was on the same bike path on my way home. I went 
>>> home and was called back into work because we were transplanting
>>>  her organs. :(.
>>> Kelly"
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Eric Norris]

Ok. I guess I mentally separated the results--a helmet protects your head when 
it hits the ground--from their suggestion that it would be a good idea to 
require the use of helmets. The former seems to be to be a fact-based 
conclusion, the latter an opinion.

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Nov 23, 2015, at 6:55 AM, Doug Williams  wrote:
> 
> Umm...Eric...read the article again. The authors of the study recommended 
> mandatory helmet laws.
> 
>> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:16:27 AM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>> Well said, Steve. Nobody is suggesting mandatory helmets--on bikes, in the 
>> shower, or elsewhere. 
>> 
>> Eric N
>> www.CampyOnly.com
>> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
>> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>> 
>>> On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>>> 
>>> When did mandatory helmet laws enter this discussion?  I didn't read the 
>>> article all that closely, but the gist of it as I recall it is that the 
>>> wearing of helmets was in fact effective in the cases cited.  That itself 
>>> has been called in question in the past, and it is worthwhile attempting to 
>>> answer it.  And within that context, the introduction of mandatory helmet 
>>> laws/helmet wars is an irrelevant distraction.  One can be for the wearing 
>>> of helmets but against mandatory helmet laws; I am and I know many others 
>>> who feel the same way.  In fact, although I know many, many helmet users I 
>>> don't know anyone who favors criminalizing the not wearing of them.
>>> 
 On 11/23/2015 12:19 AM, Doug Williams wrote:
 Hey, I wear my helmet all the time, but…The article fails to mention 
 several OTHER important facts. Because of this, the study simply can’t be 
 taken seriously. You simply can’t pick only the facts that support your 
 desired conclusion; you must weigh all the facts. Those advocating helmet 
 laws can't ignore other inconvenient facts that don’t support their 
 conclusion. That’s not how science works, and anyone who ignores 
 established and pertinent facts when making their conclusion shouldn’t be 
 taken seriously. Let’s start by granting their single fact that helmets 
 may reduce injuries in the event of a crash. This single fact has to be 
 weighed against the other proven facts before we can arrive at a 
 conclusion that mandatory helmet laws save lives.
 
 
 
 Fact 1: Mandatory Helmet Laws reduced ridership. This has been proven over 
 and over again in study after study.
 
 
 
 Fact 2: Bicycling in general is safer with more bicycles on the road. 
 Drivers get used to seeing bicycles and become accustomed to them. The 
 drivers then act more safely around bicycles. This is also well documented.
 
 
 
 Fact 3: Bicycling is much safer than they represent when the risk of 
 bicycle injury is weighed against other known risks. Many, many, more 
 people would be saved by mandatory helmet laws for pedestrians and 
 motorists. Around 4,500 pedestrians and 45,000 motorists are killed in 
 accidents each year in the U.S. The percentage of these people who would 
 have reduced injuries with a helmet is similar to that for bicyclists. Why 
 not save these people as well? I’ll take these people seriously when they 
 propose a UNIVERSAL helmet law for everyone instead of just for bicyclists.
 
 
 
 Fact 4: Around 600 bicyclists die each year in the U.S. but well over 
 300,000 die of obesity and lack of exercise related diseases. The reduced 
 ridership caused by mandatory helmet laws would cause more deaths from 
 reduced health status than would be saved by helmets. 
 
 
 All “studies” that argue for mandatory helmet laws ignore the above facts. 
 Find me a study that doesn’t and then we can reopen the helmet wars. In 
 the meantime…yawn.
 
 
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 7:02:05 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
> Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it is 
> perhaps of interest to some:
> 
> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider 
> 
> And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly 
> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many 
> times on this forum.
> 
> --Eric Norris
> campyo...@me.com
> www.campyonly.com
> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
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>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You rece

Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Steve Palincsar]

Fine.  I did say I didn't read the article all that closely. Anyway, 
that's just their opinion.  Their work doesn't necessarily lead to that 
conclusion.


What's more, none of us would object to efforts to get manufacturers to 
make better helmets, and few would object to efforts to increase helmet 
use -- indeed, many of us participate in such efforts now, ranging from 
club-sponsored free helmet give-aways to lead-by-example.


On 11/23/2015 10:00 AM, Doug Williams wrote:
Quoting from the article: "As a result of their findings, Drs. Haider 
and Joseph said that the next step is to create injury prevention 
programs to increase helmet use among bicyclists, to manufacture 
better helmets, and to develop and enforce stricter laws for helmet use."


Doug

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:55:31 AM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:

Umm...Eric...read the article again. The authors of the study
recommended mandatory helmet laws.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:16:27 AM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:

Well said, Steve. Nobody is suggesting mandatory helmets--on
bikes, in the shower, or elsewhere.

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com 
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Steve Palincsar 
wrote:


When did mandatory helmet laws enter this discussion?  I
didn't read the article all that closely, but the gist of it
as I recall it is that the wearing of helmets was in fact
effective in the cases cited.  That itself has been called in
question in the past, and it is worthwhile attempting to
answer it.  And within that context, the introduction of
mandatory helmet laws/helmet wars is an irrelevant
distraction.  One can be for the wearing of helmets but
against mandatory helmet laws; I am and I know many others
who feel the same way. In fact, although I know many, many
helmet users I don't know anyone who favors criminalizing the
not wearing of them.



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[RBW] Re: Jingle Bell Betty

[Lynne Cooney]

Nice!

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 9:11:55 PM UTC-8, LeahFoy wrote:
>
> I really wanted to do something no one else would be doing around here. 
> Mission accomplished. 
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/daytondogg/albums/72157661484221426
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Doug Williams]

Quoting from the article: "As a result of their findings, Drs. Haider and 
Joseph said that the next step is to create injury prevention programs to 
increase helmet use among bicyclists, to manufacture better helmets, and to 
develop and enforce stricter laws for helmet use."

Doug

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:55:31 AM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:
>
> Umm...Eric...read the article again. The authors of the study recommended 
> mandatory helmet laws.
>
> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:16:27 AM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>>
>> Well said, Steve. Nobody is suggesting mandatory helmets--on bikes, in 
>> the shower, or elsewhere. 
>>
>> Eric N
>> www.CampyOnly.com 
>> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
>> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>>
>> When did mandatory helmet laws enter this discussion?  I didn't read the 
>> article all that closely, but the gist of it as I recall it is that the 
>> wearing of helmets was in fact effective in the cases cited.  That itself 
>> has been called in question in the past, and it is worthwhile attempting to 
>> answer it.  And within that context, the introduction of mandatory helmet 
>> laws/helmet wars is an irrelevant distraction.  One can be for the wearing 
>> of helmets but against mandatory helmet laws; I am and I know many others 
>> who feel the same way.  In fact, although I know many, many helmet users I 
>> don't know anyone who favors criminalizing the not wearing of them.
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: No new Cheviots until December 2016!

[Wayne Naha]

Ride over ALL the sticks!  That's what fat tires are for!

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 9:49:27 AM UTC-5, Lynne Cooney wrote:
>
>
>  sticks'?" ranting deleted>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Doug Williams]

Umm...Eric...read the article again. The authors of the study recommended 
mandatory helmet laws.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:16:27 AM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Well said, Steve. Nobody is suggesting mandatory helmets--on bikes, in the 
> shower, or elsewhere. 
>
> Eric N
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>
> On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Steve Palincsar  > wrote:
>
> When did mandatory helmet laws enter this discussion?  I didn't read the 
> article all that closely, but the gist of it as I recall it is that the 
> wearing of helmets was in fact effective in the cases cited.  That itself 
> has been called in question in the past, and it is worthwhile attempting to 
> answer it.  And within that context, the introduction of mandatory helmet 
> laws/helmet wars is an irrelevant distraction.  One can be for the wearing 
> of helmets but against mandatory helmet laws; I am and I know many others 
> who feel the same way.  In fact, although I know many, many helmet users I 
> don't know anyone who favors criminalizing the not wearing of them.
>
> On 11/23/2015 12:19 AM, Doug Williams wrote:
>
> Hey, I wear my helmet all the time, but…The article fails to mention 
> several OTHER important facts. Because of this, the study simply can’t be 
> taken seriously. You simply can’t pick only the facts that support your 
> desired conclusion; you must weigh all the facts. Those advocating helmet 
> laws can't ignore other inconvenient facts that don’t support their 
> conclusion. That’s not how science works, and anyone who ignores 
> established and pertinent facts when making their conclusion shouldn’t be 
> taken seriously. Let’s start by granting their single fact that helmets may 
> reduce injuries in the event of a crash. This single fact has to be weighed 
> against the other proven facts before we can arrive at a conclusion that 
> mandatory helmet laws save lives.
>
>
> Fact 1: Mandatory Helmet Laws reduced ridership. This has been proven over 
> and over again in study after study.
>
>
> Fact 2: Bicycling in general is safer with more bicycles on the road. 
> Drivers get used to seeing bicycles and become accustomed to them. The 
> drivers then act more safely around bicycles. This is also well documented.
>
>
> Fact 3: Bicycling is much safer than they represent when the risk of 
> bicycle injury is weighed against other known risks. Many, many, more 
> people would be saved by mandatory helmet laws for pedestrians and 
> motorists. Around 4,500 pedestrians and 45,000 motorists are killed in 
> accidents each year in the U.S. The percentage of these people who would 
> have reduced injuries with a helmet is similar to that for bicyclists. Why 
> not save these people as well? I’ll take these people seriously when they 
> propose a UNIVERSAL helmet law for everyone instead of just for bicyclists.
>
>
> Fact 4: Around 600 bicyclists die each year in the U.S. but well over 
> 300,000 die of obesity and lack of exercise related diseases. The reduced 
> ridership caused by mandatory helmet laws would cause more deaths from 
> reduced health status than would be saved by helmets. 
>
> All “studies” that argue for mandatory helmet laws ignore the above facts. 
> Find me a study that doesn’t and then we can reopen the helmet wars. In the 
> meantime…yawn.
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 7:02:05 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote: 
>>
>> Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it is 
>> perhaps of interest to some: 
>>
>> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider 
>>
>> And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly 
>> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many 
>> times on this forum.
>>
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyo...@me.com
>> www.campyonly.com
>> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com 
>>
>> -- 
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[RBW] Re: Jingle Bell Betty

[Wayne Naha]

Now I will have to try this with my girl's bikes.  They will love it.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 12:11:55 AM UTC-5, LeahFoy wrote:
>
> I really wanted to do something no one else would be doing around here. 
> Mission accomplished. 
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/daytondogg/albums/72157661484221426
>

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[RBW] Re: No new Cheviots until December 2016!

[Lynne Cooney]

"Fastish" never happens. Never will. I ride to get places and I don't care 
how long it takes. In fact, I prefer that it take longer. 

Yes, it does have a much wider range than the Brompton, and honestly much 
to wide for my use. I'm probably a good candidate for a 1x setup. 



On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 1:03:31 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> "Terrified" is not fun, and I can understand your trepidation after 
> catching up on your story. I hope you got your Cheviot dialed in this 
> weekend and can head out for a little ride Monday. Not that you asked, but 
> I would recommend riding it like your Brompton with the focus on just 
> getting the feel for the new bike. If you stay in the middle ring and just 
> shift the rear derailer, you should have a wider range than what the 
> Brommie provides. This process is what I use on all new-to-me bikes, just 
> like breaking in a car. I find that I get a little nervous if I try to 
> figure out all the new variables at once at a fastish clip. I need to go 
> slow and adapt to the bike in steps, if that makes sense.
>
> Joe "yes you can pass me, I'm not racing" Bernard
> Vallejo, CA.
>
> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 1:58:00 PM UTC-8, Lynne Cooney wrote:
>
>> Despite the absolute hell I have been through with mine, I'm glad I 
>> snatched it up!
>>
>> I have new fenders (SKS) that I will be installing this weekend, and it 
>> will finally be ridable. As is, I've been terrified every single ride.
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Scott G.]

I don't wear a helmet, I wear a AEPMSD.
AeroDynamic Expanded Polystyrene Mirror Support Device.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Steve Palincsar]

Irrelevant question.  We aren't discussing whether or not one should 
wear a helmet while driving in a car.


On 11/23/2015 09:30 AM, Lynne Cooney wrote:
This is just a question, not trying to stir up trouble. How many 
donors did you have from car occupants who also would have been saved 
by a helmet?


On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:21:55 AM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:

In that vein, here's a reply to the same post from a friend:

"Nicely said Eric.I too wear a helmet every time I'm on my bike! I
definitely advocate wearing helmets for any type of riding. I
worked in transplantation for 10 years and I assure you we had
several donors because of the choice not to wear a helmet. I will
never forget a donor we had who fell on a local bike path. I will
never forget her because I saw her riding without her helmet while
I was on the same bike path on my way home. I went home and was
called back into work because we were transplanting her organs. :(.
Kelly"



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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Steve Palincsar]

I disagree.  I've had several crashes over the years, all due to road 
hazards: sand, eroded roots, potholes, cracks, black ice  -- not one of 
which involved cars and none of which would have been mitigated in any 
way by having more cyclists on the road.  And several people I know were 
involved in crashes because of other cyclists: riders who stopped dead 
with no warning while riding in the midst of a large group, riders who 
rode into other riders, people who for no known reason just crashed 
right in front of others causing a multi-bike pileup.


If you're going down, head protection is far more likely to help than to 
hurt.  The next time you're hitting the asphalt at 10 or 15 mph and you 
hear your helmet hitting the pavement and then sliding along the 
asphalt, ask yourself "Would I rather be sliding on my skin than on the 
helmet right now?"


On 11/23/2015 08:34 AM, Philip Kim wrote:
I think as more bicycles are on the road, helmets will become less 
necessary. I think a better way to promote bicycling is to have a 
traffic system where bicycles and cars don't share the same road, 
physically and psychologically. A lot of my friends won't ride bikes 
in the city for this reason.


But in DC, as long as there's a law designating a "3 ft minimum to 
pass" for those driving 2 tons of metal and are usually texting or 
using facebook on their phone, I will keep wearing my helmet.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Lynne Cooney]

This is just a question, not trying to stir up trouble. How many donors did 
you have from car occupants who also would have been saved by a helmet?

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:21:55 AM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> In that vein, here's a reply to the same post from a friend:
>
> "Nicely said Eric.I too wear a helmet every time I'm on my bike! I 
> definitely advocate wearing helmets for any type of riding. I worked in 
> transplantation for 10 years and I assure you we had several donors because 
> of the choice not to wear a helmet. I will never forget a donor we had who 
> fell on a local bike path. I will never forget her because I saw her riding 
> without her helmet while I was on the same bike path on my way home. I went 
> home and was called back into work because we were transplanting her 
> organs. :(.
> Kelly"
>
> Eric N
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>
> On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:36 AM, Will > 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
> This is what was left of the helmet that saved my wife's life. Not my 
> opinion... the direct observation of the trauma surgeon... We still had 
> trouble, but... 
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 7:15:30 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> just the wrong impact at 12 mph is enough to kill you - helmet is a 
>> no-brainer
>>
>>
>>> -- 
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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Lynne Cooney]

Who can resist the helme(n)t war?

I was hit by a car. My helmet was cracked in two. I had no head injury. I'm 
damn glad I was wearing it. But this was a road ride, where I was actually 
trying to keep my average speed at around 17mph for 62 miles. I'm going to 
wear a helmet in that case.

We have a mandatory helmet law in Seattle. 

I have been a member of Pronto! (bike sharing) since day one (I even have 
the super-sexy blue fob).

I have never used Pronto! Not once. Why? That damn helmet law. If I want to 
grab a bike share bike to ride eight blocks to REI, at only slightly faster 
than walking speed, I don't feel like dealing with the rental helmet. And 
I'm not going to carry my own helmet everywhere I go. Every single time I 
have thought about it, I just walked instead. Many people just don't wear 
the mandatory helmet.

If I'm not using the bike share program because of the helmet BS, I'm 
probably not the only one.

When I'm riding my own bikes to work or wherever, I have found that my 
helmet is a very convenient place to keep my backup battery lights. Easy to 
move them from bike to bike, no need to remove them when I park the bike. 
It's also just handy to have lights on your helmet. 

Most of us know all the arguments. Many car occupants have head injuries 
from car crashes. Anyone who races cars wears a helmet. But we are not 
screaming for helmets in cars. I know of one person who would probably be 
alive today if she had been wearing a helmet in the car.

Helmet laws are not helping.

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 7:02:05 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it is 
> perhaps of interest to some:
>
> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider 
>
> And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly 
> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many 
> times on this forum.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyo...@me.com 
> www.campyonly.com
> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Eric Norris]

In that vein, here's a reply to the same post from a friend:

"Nicely said Eric.I too wear a helmet every time I'm on my bike! I definitely 
advocate wearing helmets for any type of riding. I worked in transplantation 
for 10 years and I assure you we had several donors because of the choice not 
to wear a helmet. I will never forget a donor we had who fell on a local bike 
path. I will never forget her because I saw her riding without her helmet while 
I was on the same bike path on my way home. I went home and was called back 
into work because we were transplanting her organs. :(.
Kelly"

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:36 AM, Will  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what was left of the helmet that saved my wife's life. Not my 
> opinion... the direct observation of the trauma surgeon... We still had 
> trouble, but... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 7:15:30 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>> just the wrong impact at 12 mph is enough to kill you - helmet is a 
>> no-brainer
>> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Eric Norris]

Well said, Steve. Nobody is suggesting mandatory helmets--on bikes, in the 
shower, or elsewhere. 

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> 
> When did mandatory helmet laws enter this discussion?  I didn't read the 
> article all that closely, but the gist of it as I recall it is that the 
> wearing of helmets was in fact effective in the cases cited.  That itself has 
> been called in question in the past, and it is worthwhile attempting to 
> answer it.  And within that context, the introduction of mandatory helmet 
> laws/helmet wars is an irrelevant distraction.  One can be for the wearing of 
> helmets but against mandatory helmet laws; I am and I know many others who 
> feel the same way.  In fact, although I know many, many helmet users I don't 
> know anyone who favors criminalizing the not wearing of them.
> 
>> On 11/23/2015 12:19 AM, Doug Williams wrote:
>> Hey, I wear my helmet all the time, but…The article fails to mention several 
>> OTHER important facts. Because of this, the study simply can’t be taken 
>> seriously. You simply can’t pick only the facts that support your desired 
>> conclusion; you must weigh all the facts. Those advocating helmet laws can't 
>> ignore other inconvenient facts that don’t support their conclusion. That’s 
>> not how science works, and anyone who ignores established and pertinent 
>> facts when making their conclusion shouldn’t be taken seriously. Let’s start 
>> by granting their single fact that helmets may reduce injuries 
>> in the event of a crash. This single fact has to be weighed against the 
>> other proven facts before we can arrive at a conclusion that mandatory 
>> helmet laws save lives.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Fact 1: Mandatory Helmet Laws reduced ridership. This has been proven over 
>> and over again in study after study.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Fact 2: Bicycling in general is safer with more bicycles on the road. 
>> Drivers get used to seeing bicycles and become accustomed to them. The 
>> drivers then act more safely around bicycles. This is also well documented.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Fact 3: Bicycling is much safer than they represent when the risk of bicycle 
>> injury is weighed against other known risks. Many, many, more people would 
>> be saved by mandatory helmet laws for pedestrians and motorists. Around 
>> 4,500 pedestrians and 45,000 motorists are killed in accidents each year in 
>> the U.S. The percentage of these people who would have reduced injuries with 
>> a helmet is similar to that for bicyclists. Why not save these people as 
>> well? I’ll take these people seriously when they propose a UNIVERSAL helmet 
>> law for everyone instead of just for bicyclists.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Fact 4: Around 600 bicyclists die each year in the U.S. but well over 
>> 300,000 die of obesity and lack of exercise related diseases. The reduced 
>> ridership caused by mandatory helmet laws would cause more deaths from 
>> reduced health status than would be saved by helmets. 
>> 
>> 
>> All “studies” that argue for mandatory helmet laws ignore the above facts. 
>> Find me a study that doesn’t and then we can reopen the helmet wars. In the 
>> meantime…yawn.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 7:02:05 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>>> Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it is 
>>> perhaps of interest to some:
>>> 
>>> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider 
>>> 
>>> And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly 
>>> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many 
>>> times on this forum.
>>> 
>>> --Eric Norris
>>> campyo...@me.com
>>> www.campyonly.com
>>> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
>>> 
>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Will]

This is what was left of the helmet that saved my wife's life. Not my 
opinion... the direct observation of the trauma surgeon... We still had 
trouble, but... 






On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 7:15:30 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> just the wrong impact at 12 mph is enough to kill you - helmet is a 
> no-brainer
>
>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Philip Kim]

I think as more bicycles are on the road, helmets will become less 
necessary. I think a better way to promote bicycling is to have a traffic 
system where bicycles and cars don't share the same road, physically and 
psychologically. A lot of my friends won't ride bikes in the city for this 
reason. 

But in DC, as long as there's a law designating a "3 ft minimum to pass" 
for those driving 2 tons of metal and are usually texting or using facebook 
on their phone, I will keep wearing my helmet.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 12:19:43 AM UTC-5, Doug Williams wrote:
>
> Hey, I wear my helmet all the time, but…The article fails to mention 
> several OTHER important facts. Because of this, the study simply can’t be 
> taken seriously. You simply can’t pick only the facts that support your 
> desired conclusion; you must weigh all the facts. Those advocating helmet 
> laws can't ignore other inconvenient facts that don’t support their 
> conclusion. That’s not how science works, and anyone who ignores 
> established and pertinent facts when making their conclusion shouldn’t be 
> taken seriously. Let’s start by granting their single fact that helmets may 
> reduce injuries in the event of a crash. This single fact has to be weighed 
> against the other proven facts before we can arrive at a conclusion that 
> mandatory helmet laws save lives.
>
>
> Fact 1: Mandatory Helmet Laws reduced ridership. This has been proven over 
> and over again in study after study.
>
>
> Fact 2: Bicycling in general is safer with more bicycles on the road. 
> Drivers get used to seeing bicycles and become accustomed to them. The 
> drivers then act more safely around bicycles. This is also well documented.
>
>
> Fact 3: Bicycling is much safer than they represent when the risk of 
> bicycle injury is weighed against other known risks. Many, many, more 
> people would be saved by mandatory helmet laws for pedestrians and 
> motorists. Around 4,500 pedestrians and 45,000 motorists are killed in 
> accidents each year in the U.S. The percentage of these people who would 
> have reduced injuries with a helmet is similar to that for bicyclists. Why 
> not save these people as well? I’ll take these people seriously when they 
> propose a UNIVERSAL helmet law for everyone instead of just for bicyclists.
>
>
> Fact 4: Around 600 bicyclists die each year in the U.S. but well over 
> 300,000 die of obesity and lack of exercise related diseases. The reduced 
> ridership caused by mandatory helmet laws would cause more deaths from 
> reduced health status than would be saved by helmets. 
>
> All “studies” that argue for mandatory helmet laws ignore the above facts. 
> Find me a study that doesn’t and then we can reopen the helmet wars. In the 
> meantime…yawn.
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 7:02:05 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>>
>> Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it is 
>> perhaps of interest to some:
>>
>> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider 
>>
>> And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly 
>> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many 
>> times on this forum.
>>
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyo...@me.com
>> www.campyonly.com
>> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

just the wrong impact at 12 mph is enough to kill you - helmet is a 
no-brainer


>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Steve Palincsar]

When did mandatory helmet laws enter this discussion?  I didn't read the 
article all that closely, but the gist of it as I recall it is that the 
wearing of helmets was in fact effective in the cases cited.  That 
itself has been called in question in the past, and it is worthwhile 
attempting to answer it.  And within that context, the introduction of 
mandatory helmet laws/helmet wars is an irrelevant distraction.  One can 
be for the wearing of helmets but against mandatory helmet laws; I am 
and I know many others who feel the same way.  In fact, although I know 
many, many helmet users I don't know anyone who favors criminalizing the 
not wearing of them.


On 11/23/2015 12:19 AM, Doug Williams wrote:


Hey, I wear my helmet all the time, but…The article fails to mention 
several OTHER important facts. Because of this, the study simply can’t 
be taken seriously. You simply can’t pick only the facts that support 
your desired conclusion; you must weigh all the facts. Those 
advocating helmet laws can't ignore other inconvenient facts that 
don’t support their conclusion. That’s not how science works, and 
anyone who ignores established and pertinent facts when making their 
conclusion shouldn’t be taken seriously. Let’s start by granting their 
single fact that helmets may reduce injuries in the event of a crash. 
This single fact has to be weighed against the other proven facts 
before we can arrive at a conclusion that mandatory helmet laws save 
lives.



Fact 1: Mandatory Helmet Laws reduced ridership. This has been proven 
over and over again in study after study.



Fact 2: Bicycling in general is safer with more bicycles on the road. 
Drivers get used to seeing bicycles and become accustomed to them. The 
drivers then act more safely around bicycles. This is also well 
documented.



Fact 3: Bicycling is much safer than they represent when the risk of 
bicycle injury is weighed against other known risks. Many, many, more 
people would be saved by mandatory helmet laws for pedestrians and 
motorists. Around 4,500 pedestrians and 45,000 motorists are killed in 
accidents each year in the U.S. The percentage of these people who 
would have reduced injuries with a helmet is similar to that for 
bicyclists. Why not save these people as well? I’ll take these people 
seriously when they propose a UNIVERSAL helmet law for everyone 
instead of just for bicyclists.



Fact 4: Around 600 bicyclists die each year in the U.S. but well over 
300,000 die of obesity and lack of exercise related diseases. The 
reduced ridership caused by mandatory helmet laws would cause more 
deaths from reduced health status than would be saved by helmets.


All “studies” that argue for mandatory helmet laws ignore the above 
facts. Find me a study that doesn’t and then we can reopen the helmet 
wars. In the meantime…yawn.



On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 7:02:05 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:

Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but
it is perhaps of interest to some:

https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider


And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have
firmly established their entrenched positions, which have been
expressed many times on this forum.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com 
www.campyonly.com 
campyonlyguy.blogspot.com 

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[RBW] Re: Let's See Some Clem/Clementine Pics

[islaysteve]

El Sapo,  Your photo shows the color well, and the color is great, IMO.  
Regarding indexing, you should be able to index by installing most any 
Shimano/SRAM compatible indexing shifter, compatible with number of rear 
cogs,which in your case is probably 9, but check.  You will have many choices, 
not all expensive. Make sure they will fit your bar diameter.  Any good shop 
will be able to help you.  Riv is not into indexing, but I'm sure that the good 
folks there could also give you info and advise.  The Rivish method would be to 
install some indexing shifters like Shimano barcons on Paul Thumbies.  But that 
is a more expensive solution.  Lots of folks here index and I'm sure they will 
correct me if I've given any misinformation.  Enjoy your new bike!
Steve



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[RBW] Re: Jingle Bell Betty

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I think it would look a little tidier if they were internally wired...

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 12:11:55 AM UTC-5, LeahFoy wrote:
>
> I really wanted to do something no one else would be doing around here. 
> Mission accomplished. 
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/daytondogg/albums/72157661484221426
>

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[RBW] Re: Jingle Bell Betty

[Deacon Patrick]

Fantastic!

With abandon,
Patrick

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 10:11:55 PM UTC-7, LeahFoy wrote:
>
> I really wanted to do something no one else would be doing around here. 
> Mission accomplished. 
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/daytondogg/albums/72157661484221426
>

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[RBW] Re: Clem Smith fenders?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Looks good, Tim. Last night I was reminded how much I love setting up 
fenders as I decided to make my fixed gear more useful with a pair of 
vintage Bluemels I've had lying around forever. Got the word from Rivendell 
that my Clementine has been shipped. ETA is a week from today, but if I get 
lucky... And my Cascadia ALX 27.5 Wide should be here by then. Someone over 
on iBoB just put a pair of these on his pink Elephant. They clear a 48mm 
tire and have a flattish profile, but they are definitely on the short 
side. I plan to add a few inches with some yellow reflective tape and a bit 
of plastic.

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 11:55:01 PM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 8:53:11 PM UTC-8, Tim Wood wrote:
> > So I installed the black Cascadias and I'm pretty happy with how they 
> turned out. They went on smooth, fender line is dialed, the coverage is 
> great and I don't mind the look. 
> > 
> > Tim
>
> Damn iOS. Always flipping my damn pictures. 
>
> https://flic.kr/p/AKfzVz
>
>

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[RBW] Re: No new Cheviots until December 2016!

[Joe Bernard]

"Terrified" is not fun, and I can understand your trepidation after 
catching up on your story. I hope you got your Cheviot dialed in this 
weekend and can head out for a little ride Monday. Not that you asked, but 
I would recommend riding it like your Brompton with the focus on just 
getting the feel for the new bike. If you stay in the middle ring and just 
shift the rear derailer, you should have a wider range than what the 
Brommie provides. This process is what I use on all new-to-me bikes, just 
like breaking in a car. I find that I get a little nervous if I try to 
figure out all the new variables at once at a fastish clip. I need to go 
slow and adapt to the bike in steps, if that makes sense.

Joe "yes you can pass me, I'm not racing" Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 1:58:00 PM UTC-8, Lynne Cooney wrote:

> Despite the absolute hell I have been through with mine, I'm glad I 
> snatched it up!
>
> I have new fenders (SKS) that I will be installing this weekend, and it 
> will finally be ridable. As is, I've been terrified every single ride.
>

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