Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Bill M.]

Correct, mine are paired with SRAM brifters.

Bill

On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 1:27:21 PM UTC-8, Coal Bee Rye Anne wrote:
>
> I just looked them up again (Yokozuna Motoko brakes) and realized they are 
> in fact "road" disc calipers and appear to use short pull levers, not long 
> pull/v brake levers.  Didn't realize this initially but thought I'd mention 
> it here for clarification.
>
> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 3:38:33 PM UTC-5, Bill M. wrote:
>>
>> I just set up my first disc-braked bike using these brakes.  Mine  are 
>> branded Juin Tech (Yokozuna rebrands the calipers includes a set of their 
>> own cables, otherwise the same). 
>>
>> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 8:18:23 AM UTC-8, Coal Bee Rye Anne 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyone here have any experience using the Yokozuna cable actuated 
>>> hydraulic disc calipers?  If I understand correctly these have a sealed 
>>> hydraulic system contained within the caliper only and use standard long 
>>> pull brake cables/levers.  These were mentioned to me by the owner of a 
>>> local shop during a visit a few months ago but I have not yet seen them in 
>>> person. 
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[R. Alexis]

You mention the steerer strength is between 1" and 11/8" threadless. Has 
anyone given any thought to possibly the superior strength of 1" steerer 
that Rivendell is possibly using that was not used years past? Both Grant 
Peterson in early Rivendell Readers possibly and for sure Keith Bontrager 
in his writings have exposed how some larger bike companies have used 
lesser materials like high-ten steel tubing in headtube and bottom bracket 
shells to save cost that ended up causing failures and issues which lead to 
using oversized tubing to counteract these failures. Is it possible the 
bent 1" steerer is the result of companies using not as strong tubing in 
the steer tube and that current Rivendell forks a lot better, stronger 
tubing in that application for that reason. I may be wrong on that issue. 

As far as disc verse canti, I personally find it disapointing that there 
are hardly any canti brake bikes outside of low end units and possibly and 
odd ball here and there. The only bike I have with disc is a Gary Fisher 
X-Caliber 29er with used Avid BB-5 brakes on 160mm rotors. They work ok, 
not spectacular. I have gotten better braking out of cheap, low end linear 
pull brakes, but that may be a product of the used brakes than anything 
else. I have built new bikes up with disc brakes and didn't notice anything 
spectacular on the test rides. I haven't spent a ton of time on disc brakes 
either.

One of the issues now is that with the bicycle industry pushing disc brakes 
more, this has caused less quality cantilever brakes to be made. Gone are 
Avid Single Digit Ultimate and Cane Creek Direct Curve 5, formerly Onza 
Pork Rib brakes. That along with standard canti brakes like the Avid 
Tri-Align, Interloc 5-10, or Wilderness Trail Bikes Speedmaster. All but 
one bike I have has standard cantilever brakes on them. 

I is nice that Rivendell still offers standard cantilever brakes. It is my 
preference. I don't see the need to move to disc brakes, but that does not 
mean I won't at some point, but not anytime soon. For anyone that likes 
cantilever brakes bikes, it would seen that now is as good a time as any to 
pick up some older bike that has them like an Ibis Mojo steel, Moots, for a 
reasonable amount with disc, through axle/Boost, 44mm headtube/taper 
steerer bikes being all the rage now. 

The thought of having Rivendell build a disc brake, 11/8" steerer bike 
takes me back to when I ordered my Rivendell Mountain. I wanted to 
substitute KGB/Breezer or Ritchey hooded drops in place of the forged drop 
outs they were being built with along with Rollercam/U-Brake mounts. Pretty 
much said No Go on the drop outs, but was more receptive to the Rollercam 
mounts. In the end, I went with the standard cantilever brakes for future 
replacement reasons. I have been happily riding that bike since with no 
regret on not getting those specs. 

Reginald Alexis

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I just looked them up again (Yokozuna Motoko brakes) and realized they are 
in fact "road" disc calipers and appear to use short pull levers, not long 
pull/v brake levers.  Didn't realize this initially but thought I'd mention 
it here for clarification.

On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 3:38:33 PM UTC-5, Bill M. wrote:
>
> I just set up my first disc-braked bike using these brakes.  Mine  are 
> branded Juin Tech (Yokozuna rebrands the calipers includes a set of their 
> own cables, otherwise the same). 
>
> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 8:18:23 AM UTC-8, Coal Bee Rye Anne 
> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone here have any experience using the Yokozuna cable actuated 
>> hydraulic disc calipers?  If I understand correctly these have a sealed 
>> hydraulic system contained within the caliper only and use standard long 
>> pull brake cables/levers.  These were mentioned to me by the owner of a 
>> local shop during a visit a few months ago but I have not yet seen them in 
>> person. 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Thanks Bill,  The shop owner that first mentioned them to me was 
pretty enthusiastic about 'em during our discussion but since that was last 
winter I cannot now recall whether he had already tried them and was 
pleased with their performance/set-up/etc. or was more excited about trying 
them.

On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 3:38:33 PM UTC-5, Bill M. wrote:
>
> I just set up my first disc-braked bike using these brakes.  Mine  are 
> branded Juin Tech (Yokozuna rebrands the calipers includes a set of their 
> own cables, otherwise the same).  They are dead simple to set up and adjust 
> - attach the calipers loosely, install the cable, then tighten the caliper 
> bolts while firmly holding the brake lever to align the caliper to the 
> disc.  Spin the wheel and tighten the adjusting knob until the pads start 
> to contact the disc, then back it off until they don't.  Done.  Further pad 
> adjustments are manual but as simple as can be.  
>
> I have not taken the bike down any significant hills but the lever effort 
> is low and they provide plenty of stopping power.  No complaints there at 
> all.  Far better than any canti's I have owned.
>
> Longevity is still an open question, I have under 200 dry miles on them so 
> far.
>
> Bill
> Stockton, CA
>
> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 8:18:23 AM UTC-8, Coal Bee Rye Anne 
> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone here have any experience using the Yokozuna cable actuated 
>> hydraulic disc calipers?  If I understand correctly these have a sealed 
>> hydraulic system contained within the caliper only and use standard long 
>> pull brake cables/levers.  These were mentioned to me by the owner of a 
>> local shop during a visit a few months ago but I have not yet seen them in 
>> person. 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Bill M.]

I just set up my first disc-braked bike using these brakes.  Mine  are 
branded Juin Tech (Yokozuna rebrands the calipers includes a set of their 
own cables, otherwise the same).  They are dead simple to set up and adjust 
- attach the calipers loosely, install the cable, then tighten the caliper 
bolts while firmly holding the brake lever to align the caliper to the 
disc.  Spin the wheel and tighten the adjusting knob until the pads start 
to contact the disc, then back it off until they don't.  Done.  Further pad 
adjustments are manual but as simple as can be.  

I have not taken the bike down any significant hills but the lever effort 
is low and they provide plenty of stopping power.  No complaints there at 
all.  Far better than any canti's I have owned.

Longevity is still an open question, I have under 200 dry miles on them so 
far.

Bill
Stockton, CA

On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 8:18:23 AM UTC-8, Coal Bee Rye Anne wrote:
>
> Anyone here have any experience using the Yokozuna cable actuated 
> hydraulic disc calipers?  If I understand correctly these have a sealed 
> hydraulic system contained within the caliper only and use standard long 
> pull brake cables/levers.  These were mentioned to me by the owner of a 
> local shop during a visit a few months ago but I have not yet seen them in 
> person. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Anyone here have any experience using the Yokozuna cable actuated hydraulic 
disc calipers?  If I understand correctly these have a sealed hydraulic 
system contained within the caliper only and use standard long pull brake 
cables/levers.  These were mentioned to me by the owner of a local shop 
during a visit a few months ago but I have not yet seen them in person.  

I have limited disc experience having only used old Hayes HMX-1 discs that 
came stock on my wife's old Giant Sedona and BB7's that I used as 
replacements on the same bike.  I also briefly used the same BB7 on a Big 
Dummy fork on an old hand-me-down hardtail to rigid conversion project.  

Fortunately, I never had wheel removal/install issues with either but The 
Hayes HMX were nearly impossible to adjust and quite heavy calipers so I 
just ditched 'em when pads wore out.  They did not present excessive rotor 
rubbing (as far as I recall.)

The BB7 was "easy enough" to set up and adjust and I came to appreciate the 
Torx bolt on the adjustment knob which was lacking on the Hayes HMX... but 
I did find the BB7 rubbed often during my brief usage and found it 
challenging to locate the sweet spot for the best compromise between rotor 
rub and lever modulation.  Maybe I'll need to try Patrick's trick of 
partially engaging the lever arm before tightening the pinch bolt... not 
sure if I ever tried that.  It is also possible the rotor was slightly out 
of true but never obsessed over it knowing the build was not in my long 
term plans anyway.

The Sedona has seen very little mileage since I replaced the brakes using 
this same BB7 caliper and a newer BB7S (upgraded stainless version and I 
was curious to compare them) but I'll be observing closely next time my 
wife takes it out.

Having previously considered simplifying my bike life to a reduced number 
of bikes/frames I've been tempted by the Black Mountain Monstercross 64cm 
as an affordable option to replace a few different bikes. After checking 
the BMC site recently for updates on the incoming batch of Monstercross 
Canti (MCC) frames I discovered the pending release of a newly designed BMC 
Monstercross Disc (MCD) which now has me tempted to go the disc route.  
This will appear to have through axles which is new territory for me but 
with the need for a wheelset for the 130mm spaced canti version anyway I'm 
now considering the disc version which has a few other details I'd like; 
extra set of water bottle bosses on downtube on the larger sizes, upper 
fork mounts for mini front rack (that would allow me to use my Nitto 32f 
without band clamps) increased stand over clearance with more sloping top 
tube which may be appreciated when exploring off road.

It seems somewhat silly to be pushed to consider disc over a few bottle 
bosses and rack mounts but any new frame acquisition will need to be 
thoroughly justifiabke for me to pursue it at this time and the disc is 
becoming just as appealing.  Although either would likely fit my needs, 
if my goal is to really downsize and simplify a dedicated thru axle 
wheelset may not be such a problem after all.

I was initially brainstorming ways to gain more cross compatibility of a 
reduced number of frames with matching wheels that could be swapped 
around.  The 130 spaced MCC checks many boxes for me EXCEPT cross 
compatibility of rear wheel with my 135 spaced Clem so that aspect is ruled 
out anyway and makes me consider the disc option a little bit more.

The ease of adjustability and future parts replacement of Paul Klampers is 
appealing, as is the concept of the Yokozuna cable actuated hydraulics.  
Haven't compared pricing of these or other cable disc options yet but all 
should work with levers I already own (Tektro long pull drop bar levers) so 
my investment would at least be limited to calipers/rotors (aside from the 
already anticipated wheels/frame.)

Lots to consider and this thread doesn't seem to be helping, lol.

William!, have you previously posted a pic of the Disclantis/Atlantisc?  

Brian Cole
Lawrenceville, NJ
 


>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[ascpgh]

Those were sintered pads, but I'm not sure if the material would have 
mattered.

I suspect that environmental conditions (rain, winter road glop) the back 
plate had been exposed to initiated corrosion deteriorating the surface to 
which the bond of the pad was adhered. Then I dinged the edge of the pad 
material with the edge of the rotor and off it popped with a "plink". Not 
an "almost-used-up" brake pad, other was less than 25% worn. 

I agree Steve's observation. I didn't carry extra disc pads in my bag 
before that experience and I still don't. It's not a contingency with which 
I am willing to comply and consider it a weakness of the brake format and 
limits the range to which I'm willing to operate a disc brake bike. I've 
had all sorts of one-off problems with rim brakes too, perhaps requiring 
tools for adjustments but never dependent on me having a back up set of 
pads, including riding across the country. It's easier to look at my car's 
brake pads and see enough about their integrity and wear to know if it's 
safe to drive than it is to check out my disc bike's brake pads. Even if I 
look at them, I cannot surmise bonding failure potential with a glance any 
more than warranties,  "highest quality" marketing  can promises. 

I had a brake problem due to a pad on a set of Magura HS-11 hydraulc rim 
brakes. With the brake booster arch, the bike collected mud like nothing 
else. On a trail ride I was bogging up with mud and leaves faster than the 
group and just pushed along until someone else needed to carve mud out of 
their bikes. As I uncovered the brakes I also saw that I was missing a 
brake pad. I sifted the mud I removed, and realized that the pad was long 
gone, unclipped (those brakes don't have a robust connection to the 
pistons) and pushed away by accumulating mud. Never had that happen with 
cable operated rim brakes. 

Andy Cheatham 
Pittsburgh

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 6:20:14 PM UTC-5, William! wrote:
>
> Yikes! I keep spare pads in my patch kit because it’s hard to watch pad 
> wear so I’m paranoid about wearing a pair out during a ride. Now I have 
> another reason to!
>
> Out of curiosity, what sort of material were the pads? I’ve broken 
> resin-type pads while inserting them before but sintered pads seem to be a 
> bit more durable (and long lasting).
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 2:49 PM ascpgh  
> wrote:
>
>> Uh, I had a simple flat fix turn complicated when I replaced the front 
>> wheel in the fork, missing the gap between the pads in the caliper by a 
>> smidge and shearing the pad's braking material off the backer plate. That's 
>> not a roadside repair unless you carry a replacement pair in your bag. 
>>
>> Short answer was to snag a rear pad out of the caliper to replace the now 
>> toothless front pad and put the padless plate into the rear caliper and 
>> riding home gingerly.
>>
>> Andy Cheatham
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 2:07:53 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>>
>>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William Henderson]

In rainy Portland I wear out my front pads about once a season. So far my
sintered disc pads are on track to wear out at about the same rate, perhaps
a little faster. The difference is that with rim brakes I can check their
status whenever I look down at a stop light. I know when they’re going to
wear out, and can replace them before it happens during a long wet ride.

Best,
William

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 3:28 PM Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> When was the last time you had to replace a pair of caliper brake pads on
> the road because you wore them out during a ride?  I usually get
> years-to-decades from mine.
>
> On 12/27/2017 06:19 PM, William Henderson wrote:
>
> Yikes! I keep spare pads in my patch kit because it’s hard to watch pad
> wear so I’m paranoid about wearing a pair out during a ride. Now I have
> another reason to!
>
> Out of curiosity, what sort of material were the pads? I’ve broken
> resin-type pads while inserting them before but sintered pads seem to be a
> bit more durable (and long lasting).
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 2:49 PM ascpgh  wrote:
>
>> Uh, I had a simple flat fix turn complicated when I replaced the front
>> wheel in the fork, missing the gap between the pads in the caliper by a
>> smidge and shearing the pad's braking material off the backer plate. That's
>> not a roadside repair unless you carry a replacement pair in your bag.
>>
>> Short answer was to snag a rear pad out of the caliper to replace the now
>> toothless front pad and put the padless plate into the rear caliper and
>> riding home gingerly.
>>
>> Andy Cheatham
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 2:07:53 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>>
>>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia
> USA
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Steve Palincsar]

When was the last time you had to replace a pair of caliper brake pads 
on the road because you wore them out during a ride?  I usually get 
years-to-decades from mine.



On 12/27/2017 06:19 PM, William Henderson wrote:
Yikes! I keep spare pads in my patch kit because it’s hard to watch 
pad wear so I’m paranoid about wearing a pair out during a ride. Now I 
have another reason to!


Out of curiosity, what sort of material were the pads? I’ve broken 
resin-type pads while inserting them before but sintered pads seem to 
be a bit more durable (and long lasting).
On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 2:49 PM ascpgh > wrote:


Uh, I had a simple flat fix turn complicated when I replaced the
front wheel in the fork, missing the gap between the pads in the
caliper by a smidge and shearing the pad's braking material off
the backer plate. That's not a roadside repair unless you carry a
replacement pair in your bag.

Short answer was to snag a rear pad out of the caliper to replace
the now toothless front pad and put the padless plate into the
rear caliper and riding home gingerly.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh


On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 2:07:53 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong
wrote:

Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?




--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William Henderson]

Yikes! I keep spare pads in my patch kit because it’s hard to watch pad
wear so I’m paranoid about wearing a pair out during a ride. Now I have
another reason to!

Out of curiosity, what sort of material were the pads? I’ve broken
resin-type pads while inserting them before but sintered pads seem to be a
bit more durable (and long lasting).
On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 2:49 PM ascpgh  wrote:

> Uh, I had a simple flat fix turn complicated when I replaced the front
> wheel in the fork, missing the gap between the pads in the caliper by a
> smidge and shearing the pad's braking material off the backer plate. That's
> not a roadside repair unless you carry a replacement pair in your bag.
>
> Short answer was to snag a rear pad out of the caliper to replace the now
> toothless front pad and put the padless plate into the rear caliper and
> riding home gingerly.
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 2:07:53 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>
> --
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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[ascpgh]

Uh, I had a simple flat fix turn complicated when I replaced the front 
wheel in the fork, missing the gap between the pads in the caliper by a 
smidge and shearing the pad's braking material off the backer plate. That's 
not a roadside repair unless you carry a replacement pair in your bag. 

Short answer was to snag a rear pad out of the caliper to replace the now 
toothless front pad and put the padless plate into the rear caliper and 
riding home gingerly.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 2:07:53 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Eric Daume]

Patrick, in my experience (Avid BB7, Shimano something mechanical, TRP
Spyke, and Shimano M6xxx hydros), the Shimano hydros never seem to have
significant rubbing, while the Avids and Shimano mechs seem to end up
rubbing quite often. Not much time on the TRPs yet to see where they land.

Has anyone ever actually had to fix a cable disc brake trail side, and done
this successfully?

Eric

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Eric: question about hydraulics versus cable. I've read in more than one
> place opinions by experienced disc brake users that, when it comes to pad
> rub and adjustment to avoid it, there is little difference between
> hydraulic and at least the better cable systems (I include BB7s in this
> last category). Has this been your experience?
>
> For my own purposes, the simplicity and trailside fixability of cable
> systems is a very big plus -- tho' I realize that having to stop trailside
> to fix a hydraulic system is a long-shot. I have also found that my 4 BB7
> -- perhaps 1 was BB5 -- setups worked well enough that I have no real
> desire to improve them; the only time I tried a hydraulic system -- my nd
> neighbor's new mtb -- I found that a wee tweak with 2 fingers almost sent
> me over the bar.
>
> I will add that, with BB7s, the pads stay centered when you remove, and
> when you replace, the wheel. I will add, also, that Jan's deprecation of
> BB7s in the last BQ is entirely wrong -- IME, as above.
>
> So, the only reason for me, I stress "me", to swap would be pad adjustment
> and avoiding rub. In your experience, do hydraulic systems have fewer rub
> problems than cable systems? Your data point will be useful.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Eric Daume  wrote:
>
>> I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
>>
>> - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
>>
>> - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads
>> when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed
>> them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
>>
>> - strong, progressive, etc.
>>
>> I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they
>> would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the
>> hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just
>> to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
>>
>> That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm
>> changing cockpit around quite a bit.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William! 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please
>>> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>>>
>>> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their
>>> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they
>>> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is
>>> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated,
>>> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or
>>> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and
>>> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology
>>> is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make
>>> riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things
>>> *simpler*.
>>>
>>> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are
>>> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal
>>> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that,
>>> you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at
>>> night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it
>>> feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I
>>> sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in
>>> practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings
>>> rarely fail.
>>>
>>> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but
>>> they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that
>>> needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they
>>> seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like
>>> they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered
>>> putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology,
>>> driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't
>>> care about: theoretical stopping power and "modulation", weight savings,
>>> etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly
>>> making bikes more complex: lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane
>>> parade of new frame and hub "innovations" 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William!]

I expect your difference in experience has less to do with the caliper 
(BB7s vs Klampers are similar designs) and more to do with your dropouts or 
perhaps your skewers. The problem is caused by slight differences in how 
the wheel is seated before and after you remove the wheel. With rim brakes, 
those slight differences wouldn't matter so much, but with discs the 
tolerances are so low (that's the whole point after all) that even a slight 
change in alignment will require you to reseat the wheel and/or recenter 
the brake caliper. I use Pitluck locking skewers (city life) and I wonder 
if that explains part of my difficulty – QR's would probably be easier to 
create a consistent seating. And perhaps some dropouts are better than 
others for this (thru axel dropouts being an obvious example). Finally, it 
could depend on your brake levers and how much deadband you are trying to 
achieve in your adjustment. Backing the pads off a bit will allow more room 
for slight changes in alignment.

I've had hydraulic disc brakes on other bikes and they don't address the 
issue of pad *alignment*. Where they do help is in adjusting for pad *wear*. 
Newish hydraulic calipers with dual pistons have a seal around each piston 
that is intentionally designed to slip as the pads wear and travel distance 
increases. This has the effect of managing the deadband so that the pistons 
and lever always move the same amount before contacting the rotor.  It also 
means that when you do change the pads you'll need to pry the pistons back 
to reset them to their fully out positions – otherwise rotor won't fit 
between the new pads. Without this feature (ie with all mechanical 
systems), you have to adjust the pads as they wear thin and effectively 
move further from the rotor. Not a big deal if it's just turning knobs, but 
it is a thing you have to do. It's worth noting that this isn't unique to 
disc brakes – you have to adjust rim brakes to compensate for pad wear too 
– but, less often. Again the system is made more sensitive to adjustments 
as a direct result of the low tolerances that are a feature of disc brakes.

Best,
William

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 1:31:19 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Eric: question about hydraulics versus cable. I've read in more than one 
> place opinions by experienced disc brake users that, when it comes to pad 
> rub and adjustment to avoid it, there is little difference between 
> hydraulic and at least the better cable systems (I include BB7s in this 
> last category). Has this been your experience?
>
> For my own purposes, the simplicity and trailside fixability of cable 
> systems is a very big plus -- tho' I realize that having to stop trailside 
> to fix a hydraulic system is a long-shot. I have also found that my 4 BB7 
> -- perhaps 1 was BB5 -- setups worked well enough that I have no real 
> desire to improve them; the only time I tried a hydraulic system -- my nd 
> neighbor's new mtb -- I found that a wee tweak with 2 fingers almost sent 
> me over the bar.
>
> I will add that, with BB7s, the pads stay centered when you remove, and 
> when you replace, the wheel. I will add, also, that Jan's deprecation of 
> BB7s in the last BQ is entirely wrong -- IME, as above.
>
> So, the only reason for me, I stress "me", to swap would be pad adjustment 
> and avoiding rub. In your experience, do hydraulic systems have fewer rub 
> problems than cable systems? Your data point will be useful.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Eric Daume  > wrote:
>
>> I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
>>
>> - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
>>
>> - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads 
>> when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed 
>> them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
>>
>> - strong, progressive, etc. 
>>
>> I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they 
>> would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the 
>> hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just 
>> to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
>>
>> That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm 
>> changing cockpit around quite a bit.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William! > > wrote:
>>
>>> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please 
>>> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>>>
>>> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their 
>>> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they 
>>> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is 
>>> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated, 
>>> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Justin August]

Love my disc brakes. Low level Deore Shimano hydros. I’ve never done anything 
to them except change the pads - they came on the bike and I’ve swapped bars 
and wheelsizes and forks an never had an issue. Definitely the best brakes for 
any sort of “terrain” riding. I’m very happy the hydros came with the bike. 
Otherwise I’d have gone down the rabbit hole of mechanicals and finding “the 
best” ones. These are great and while I might choose Klampers on a more road or 
touring focused bike I’m not there yet.

-Justin

On Dec 27, 2017, 12:57 PM -0800, Eric Norris , wrote:
> I don’t have any disk-equipped bikes. I rode one a few times before deciding 
> not to buy it (for reasons that had nothing to do with the brakes.)
>
> One downside that would affect me is that the wheels would not interchange 
> with any of my existing bikes. I can move around wheels in my existing stable 
> a bit (I have 120mm, 126mm, and 130mm-spaced bikes with speeds between 5 and 
> 9), but the disk wheels wouldn’t work on any of my existing bikes.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com
> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
>
> > On Dec 27, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Eric Daume  wrote:
> >
> > I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
> >
> > - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
> >
> > - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads 
> > when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed 
> > them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
> >
> > - strong, progressive, etc.
> >
> > I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they 
> > would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the 
> > hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just 
> > to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
> >
> > That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm changing 
> > cockpit around quite a bit.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William!  
> > > wrote:
> > > > Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, 
> > > > please feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the 
> > > > discussion…
> > > >
> > > > The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their 
> > > > resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then 
> > > > they need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in 
> > > > general) is about applying technology for technology's sake, making 
> > > > bikes complicated, expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of 
> > > > performance or "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, 
> > > > I mostly built and rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not 
> > > > all new technology is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and 
> > > > they really do make riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's 
> > > > better if it makes things simpler.
> > > >
> > > > For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are 
> > > > new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do 
> > > > deal with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after 
> > > > that, you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that 
> > > > ride at night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels 
> > > > freeing, it feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed 
> > > > to feel. I sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and 
> > > > service, but in practice they last plenty long and like most sealed 
> > > > hubs the bearings rarely fail.
> > > >
> > > > So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, 
> > > > but they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes 
> > > > that needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy 
> > > > they seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They 
> > > > seemed like they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I 
> > > > never considered putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc 
> > > > brake technology, driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were 
> > > > chasing things I didn't care about: theoretical stopping power and 
> > > > "modulation", weight savings, etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things 
> > > > I did care about by heedlessly making bikes more complex: lines to 
> > > > bleed, new tools to own, and an insane parade of new frame and hub 
> > > > "innovations" that promised obsolescence was just around the corner.
> > > >
> > > > A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, 
> > > > I was in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me 
> > > > walking away OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the 
> > > > result would have been different (which isn't to say disc brakes 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Eric: question about hydraulics versus cable. I've read in more than one
place opinions by experienced disc brake users that, when it comes to pad
rub and adjustment to avoid it, there is little difference between
hydraulic and at least the better cable systems (I include BB7s in this
last category). Has this been your experience?

For my own purposes, the simplicity and trailside fixability of cable
systems is a very big plus -- tho' I realize that having to stop trailside
to fix a hydraulic system is a long-shot. I have also found that my 4 BB7
-- perhaps 1 was BB5 -- setups worked well enough that I have no real
desire to improve them; the only time I tried a hydraulic system -- my nd
neighbor's new mtb -- I found that a wee tweak with 2 fingers almost sent
me over the bar.

I will add that, with BB7s, the pads stay centered when you remove, and
when you replace, the wheel. I will add, also, that Jan's deprecation of
BB7s in the last BQ is entirely wrong -- IME, as above.

So, the only reason for me, I stress "me", to swap would be pad adjustment
and avoiding rub. In your experience, do hydraulic systems have fewer rub
problems than cable systems? Your data point will be useful.

Thanks.

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Eric Daume  wrote:

> I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
>
> - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
>
> - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads
> when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed
> them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
>
> - strong, progressive, etc.
>
> I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they
> would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the
> hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just
> to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
>
> That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm
> changing cockpit around quite a bit.
>
> Eric
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William! 
> wrote:
>
>> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please
>> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>>
>> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their
>> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they
>> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is
>> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated,
>> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or
>> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and
>> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology
>> is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make
>> riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things
>> *simpler*.
>>
>> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are
>> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal
>> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that,
>> you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at
>> night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it
>> feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I
>> sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in
>> practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings
>> rarely fail.
>>
>> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but
>> they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that
>> needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they
>> seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like
>> they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered
>> putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology,
>> driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't
>> care about: theoretical stopping power and "modulation", weight savings,
>> etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly
>> making bikes more complex: lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane
>> parade of new frame and hub "innovations" that promised obsolescence was
>> just around the corner.
>>
>> A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, I
>> was in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me walking
>> away OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the result would
>> have been different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone would have saved
>> me). It rains all winter in Portland, and that experience had me spooked
>> enough that I started thinking seriously about disc brakes for my commute.
>> Two, the aforementioned wreck ruined the fork 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Eric Norris]

I don’t have any disk-equipped bikes. I rode one a few times before deciding 
not to buy it (for reasons that had nothing to do with the brakes.)

One downside that would affect me is that the wheels would not interchange with 
any of my existing bikes. I can move around wheels in my existing stable a bit 
(I have 120mm, 126mm, and 130mm-spaced bikes with speeds between 5 and 9), but 
the disk wheels wouldn’t work on any of my existing bikes.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

> On Dec 27, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Eric Daume  wrote:
> 
> I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:
> 
> - the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy
> 
> - once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads when 
> needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed them every 
> year, but so far I haven't seen the need.
> 
> - strong, progressive, etc. 
> 
> I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they 
> would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the 
> hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just to 
> enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.
> 
> That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm changing 
> cockpit around quite a bit.
> 
> Eric
> 
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William!  > wrote:
> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please feel 
> free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
> 
> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their resistance 
> to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they need to be. 
> So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is about 
> applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated, 
> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or 
> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and 
> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not all new technology is bad. 
> Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make riding better. 
> My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things simpler. 
> 
> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are 
> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal 
> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that, you 
> never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at night, a 
> bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it feels like 
> less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I sometimes wish 
> dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in practice they last 
> plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings rarely fail.
> 
> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but they 
> were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that needed 
> tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they seemed, but I 
> did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like they primarily 
> belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered putting them on my 
> daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology, driven by racers and 
> extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't care about: theoretical 
> stopping power and "modulation", weight savings, etc. Meanwhile, they were 
> ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly making bikes more complex: 
> lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane parade of new frame and hub 
> "innovations" that promised obsolescence was just around the corner.
> 
> A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, I was 
> in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me walking away 
> OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the result would have been 
> different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone would have saved me). It 
> rains all winter in Portland, and that experience had me spooked enough that 
> I started thinking seriously about disc brakes for my commute. Two, the 
> aforementioned wreck ruined the fork and buckled the down tube and top tube 
> on my Atlantis. When I decided to repair it, I had a once in a lifetime 
> (hopefully) opportunity to change the braking system at minimal extra cost. 
> Three, there finally seemed to be some decent, no-nonsense brake calipers on 
> the market. The Paul Klampers were particularly appealing. They are made by a 
> company that I trust to provide support and replacement parts for the life of 
> the bike. They prioritize simplicity in their design. They are unabashedly 
> mechanical. You can completely take apart and re-assemble them with basic 
> tools in a few minutes. And, in the name of dependability, they are 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Eric Daume]

I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:

- the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy

- once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads
when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed
them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.

- strong, progressive, etc.

I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they
would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the
hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just
to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.

That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm changing
cockpit around quite a bit.

Eric

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, William! 
wrote:

> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please
> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>
> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their
> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they
> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is
> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated,
> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or
> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and
> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology
> is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make
> riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things
> *simpler*.
>
> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are
> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal
> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that,
> you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at
> night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it
> feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I
> sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in
> practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings
> rarely fail.
>
> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but
> they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that
> needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they
> seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like
> they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered
> putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology,
> driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't
> care about: theoretical stopping power and "modulation", weight savings,
> etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly
> making bikes more complex: lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane
> parade of new frame and hub "innovations" that promised obsolescence was
> just around the corner.
>
> A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, I
> was in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me walking
> away OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the result would
> have been different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone would have saved
> me). It rains all winter in Portland, and that experience had me spooked
> enough that I started thinking seriously about disc brakes for my commute.
> Two, the aforementioned wreck ruined the fork and buckled the down tube and
> top tube on my Atlantis. When I decided to repair it, I had a once in a
> lifetime (hopefully) opportunity to change the braking system at minimal
> extra cost. Three, there finally seemed to be some decent, no-nonsense
> brake calipers on the market. The Paul Klampers were particularly
> appealing. They are made by a company that I trust to provide support and
> replacement parts for the life of the bike. They prioritize simplicity in
> their design. They are unabashedly mechanical. You can completely take
> apart and re-assemble them with basic tools in a few minutes. And, in the
> name of dependability, they are wonderfully overbuilt, just like my
> Atlantis. It'd be a stretch to say the Klampers are designed for normal
> people (as their price belies), but they are the closest thing I've seen so
> far. So, with some reservations, I decided to go for it. But I wondered,
> would it be an improvement on a bike I loved dearly that already braked
> just fine? Would they make my bike simpler or more complex?
>
> The answer for me is a mixed bag. Good disc brakes do make bikes simpler
> in meaningful ways. They are things technophile complexity-hawkers never
> talk about. Your bike and especially your rims stay far cleaner with disc
> brakes, so when you stop to change a flat you don't end up with filthy
> hands. 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Not me, not with discs, as long as you don't slam the pads when inserting
the rotor, or bash the rotor against a convenient rock or tree, and bend
it. I've had to adjust V brakes and cantis and single pivots more often in
such circs than discs. This is my experience, and I've learned to insert
the rotor very carefully.

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:54 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> Do you have to adjust pads when you R the wheels?
>
> On 12/27/2017 02:52 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I personally find removing and re-installing wheels roadside at least as
> easy with discs as with calipers or cantis or V brakes, perhaps easier. I'd
> call this one an easy draw.
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:32 PM, William! 
> wrote:
>
>> Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder with
>> discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for me). Adjustments
>> with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers anyway) but you do it
>> somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is simpler but requires taking the
>> wheel off and pads may wear out faster (this seems to depend a lot on
>> riding conditions and pad material).
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>>>
>>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia
> USA
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

If your hands are getting dirty from the rims when you remove your wheels,
then you are collecting a lot of aluminum dust on the rims -- not at all
good! Even if the dirt were only road grit, still, that has obvious
implications for you rims' life.

I've probably fixed more roadside flats than any 10 (I might even say, any
100) other listers, given our goatheads, but 99 times out of 100 in dry
conditions, and I never got my hands dirty from rim dirt, only from the
usual tire dirt.

Patrick Moore, who is very quickly losing his knack for roadside
patching *because
of Orange Seal!*

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:32 PM, William! 
wrote:

> Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder with
> discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for me). Adjustments
> with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers anyway) but you do it
> somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is simpler but requires taking the
> wheel off and pads may wear out faster (this seems to depend a lot on
> riding conditions and pad material).
>
> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Steve Palincsar]

Do you have to adjust pads when you R the wheels?


On 12/27/2017 02:52 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
I personally find removing and re-installing wheels roadside at least 
as easy with discs as with calipers or cantis or V brakes, perhaps 
easier. I'd call this one an easy draw.


On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:32 PM, William! 
> 
wrote:


Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder
with discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for
me). Adjustments with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers
anyway) but you do it somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is
simpler but requires taking the wheel off and pads may wear out
faster (this seems to depend a lot on riding conditions and pad
material).

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong
wrote:

Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?





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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I personally find removing and re-installing wheels roadside at least as
easy with discs as with calipers or cantis or V brakes, perhaps easier. I'd
call this one an easy draw.

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:32 PM, William! 
wrote:

> Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder with
> discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for me). Adjustments
> with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers anyway) but you do it
> somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is simpler but requires taking the
> wheel off and pads may wear out faster (this seems to depend a lot on
> riding conditions and pad material).
>
> On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I *mean;* I see no reason why Rivendell shouldn't stick to rim brakes ...

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Patrick Moore 
wrote: [...] I see no reason why Rivendell might stick with calipers;

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I think it was you who shared with me the photo of your wonderfully
repaired, disc-equipped, and repainted Atlantis -- as good as new and then
some, IMO.

I see no reason why Rivendell might stick with calipers; but I don't think
at all that adding a disc brake off road model to their line would
compromise their principles of simplicity of means to effective ends. In my
own experience, discs are superior for some conditions.

I've used discs now for thousands of miles on 3 dirt road bikes -- very
sandy and gravely soil, if that makes a difference; I've also used every
type of rim brake except some of the very rare exotic ones like the self
energizing types. Hell, I've not only used stirrup brakes (I wonder how
these would work, well set up, with Kool Stop pads?) but what I am sure is
a very rare and exotic hybrid system joining Bowden cables to the stirrups.

>From this experience, I conclude that discs have 2 important advantages,
one a great one in dirty conditions: no pads to collect grit and wear down
your rims; and two, not particular to dirt road riding: they allow very
light but strong rims, while adding weight near the center of the wheel.

A third, less important (to me) benefit is that they allow easy swaps
between wheels with rims of different diameter, if you know how to install
the rotor between the pads. Downside: You have to carefully adjust the
rotors to match the same pairs of pads, but this isn't that hard to do with
shims. I might one day buy a second, 650B X 80 mm wheelset to augment my
current 50/60 X 700C one; I'll be able to do this pretty easily.

Downsides: rub: IME, rub is more frequent than with pads of any rim brake
I've used, except for pads of very, very cheap stamped steel calipers and
very, very cheap V brakes, where pad rub can't be permanently removed.
OTOH, rub is very light and more annoying than an impediment. OTOH again,
I've set up BB7s so that the front pads rub only very occasionally (the
rears don't seem to at all), and this only after exceptionally dusty rides,
and then the rubbing goes away after a mile or 2 of pavement; or after a
thorough soaking; after which the rub goes away when it all dries out.
Again, just enough rub to make a light noise; annoying, not slowing.

By the way, in the recent BQ, Jan speaks of "ineffective" Avid discs; not
true at all IME, and I've installed and used at least 4 pairs. The BB7s are
no more powerful than a good pair of double pivot calipers with Kool Stops,
or the IRD cantis, Kool Stops, set up by Rivendell on my Sam Hill(these
were the best brakes in very respect bar none that I've ever used), but
they're easily as good as or better than any single pivot or centerpull
I've used, and I've used many, many, many of these. I use 160 mm rotors f
and r.

There is a trick to setting up BB7s: you have to attach the cable when the
arm is partially moved along its arc, not when the arm is entirely slack.
This removes a wee bit of torque, but allows much better pad clearance; and
again, braking power is as described.

After much research and listening to others, if I replace my ~2015 BB7 road
models, it will be with Spyres and not with any hydraulic system.



On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:41 AM, William! 
wrote:

> Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please
> feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…
>
> The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their
> resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they
> need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is
> about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated,
> expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or
> "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and
> rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology
> is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make
> riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things
> *simpler*.
>
> For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are
> new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal
> with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that,
> you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at
> night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it
> feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I
> sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in
> practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings
> rarely fail.
>
> So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but
> they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that
> needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they
> seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They 

[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William!]

Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder with 
discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for me). Adjustments 
with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers anyway) but you do it 
somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is simpler but requires taking the 
wheel off and pads may wear out faster (this seems to depend a lot on 
riding conditions and pad material).

On Wednesday, December 27, 2017 at 11:07:53 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[lum gim fong]

Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William!]

Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please 
feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…

The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their 
resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they 
need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is 
about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated, 
expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or 
"efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and 
rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not *all* new technology is 
bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make riding 
better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things 
*simpler*. 

For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are 
new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal 
with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that, 
you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at 
night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it 
feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I 
sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in 
practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings 
rarely fail.

So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but 
they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that 
needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they 
seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like 
they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered 
putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology, 
driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't 
care about: theoretical stopping power and "modulation", weight savings, 
etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly 
making bikes more complex: lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane 
parade of new frame and hub "innovations" that promised obsolescence was 
just around the corner.

A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, I 
was in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me walking 
away OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the result would 
have been different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone would have saved 
me). It rains all winter in Portland, and that experience had me spooked 
enough that I started thinking seriously about disc brakes for my commute. 
Two, the aforementioned wreck ruined the fork and buckled the down tube and 
top tube on my Atlantis. When I decided to repair it, I had a once in a 
lifetime (hopefully) opportunity to change the braking system at minimal 
extra cost. Three, there finally seemed to be some decent, no-nonsense 
brake calipers on the market. The Paul Klampers were particularly 
appealing. They are made by a company that I trust to provide support and 
replacement parts for the life of the bike. They prioritize simplicity in 
their design. They are unabashedly mechanical. You can completely take 
apart and re-assemble them with basic tools in a few minutes. And, in the 
name of dependability, they are wonderfully overbuilt, just like my 
Atlantis. It'd be a stretch to say the Klampers are designed for normal 
people (as their price belies), but they are the closest thing I've seen so 
far. So, with some reservations, I decided to go for it. But I wondered, 
would it be an improvement on a bike I loved dearly that already braked 
just fine? Would they make my bike simpler or more complex?

The answer for me is a mixed bag. Good disc brakes do make bikes simpler in 
meaningful ways. They are things technophile complexity-hawkers never talk 
about. Your bike and especially your rims stay far cleaner with disc 
brakes, so when you stop to change a flat you don't end up with filthy 
hands. That's a big deal, especially if you ever ride for practical 
transportation! Your rims don't wear our after a particularly hard wet 
season. You don't have to worry about stones in your pads or riding when a 
wheel is slightly out of true. You don't have to disengage the brakes or 
deflate to remove a wheel with a plump tire. With the Klampers at least, 
pad adjustment is easier than any brake system I have owned (which is 
important because you'll probably adjust them more often than rim brakes). 
Klampers have two big wheels you can turn with your fingers. It's more 
intuitive than adjusting brake shoes and it doesn't take any tools. Last 
but not least, disc brakes really do work better – not theoretically better 
but honest real-world better – in the rain. All these advantages are ones 
that make riding a bike nicer, simpler, more fun for just about anyone who 
rides a bike. Not 

[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Ash A]

I feel much less finger, wrist and forearm fatigue with flatbar (i.e. albatross 
or choco) levers as compared to brifters.   

In spite of the fact that the road bike (campy Veloce brifters + caliper 
brakes) is 10 lbs lighter than my Riv (Albatross bars, cheap levers, 
cheap/horrible cantis), my hands feel they are done for the day after an hour 
of downhill ride.  That's not a problem I have when I cruise down the same 
mountain on Appaloosa.   The air drag might be a factor too, but more ergonomic 
brake lever position is a bigger reason as far as I can tell. 

Squeezing those brifters never feel as comfortable or efficient. 

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[masmojo]

Bill, like you I have a box of old parts, but I am old and the pile is starting 
to dwindle. If I don't have the right stem I can go get on the internet, ebay 
or whatevewhatever. The problem is I have a box of 20+ 1 1/8" stems that I 
could cull from for just about any other build I do! So, it's a bit annoying to 
go back to the well for a stem when could've just pulled one from the wood 
pile. 
True, if your Jones truss fork goes down, you will need to get one built OR you 
could just replace it with a fork you have around if the steerer is long 
enough. Point is the Jones forks use a rather mundane 1 1/8" threadless 
steerer, a 1" steerer is getting to the point of being proprietary.

Another log on the fire & it's all for naught, because no one here is racing; 
regarding disc brakes; although they are heavier, (as some have pointed out) 
the rim can be lighter and that weight is shifted to the hub area where it has 
less effect on acceleration & deceleration. Additionally, the mechanism is low 
on the frame & fork which lowers the center of gravity. Not taking sides one 
whether one is better then the other technically, but I no longer avoid disc 
brakes as I once did & I have disc brake bikes that are 10 years old, they are 
far beyond a new fangled contrivance. Lastly, any future advancements will be 
in disc brakes (not Cantis, caliper or V brakes) which will only solidify their 
ubiquitousness.

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Ruben Flores]

I am going to throw in one more factor into this discussion (or at least I 
did not notice it in previous posts). On occasion I ride with a very 
experienced (past national champion) nearing 80 years old. He said as he 
has aged his hand strength has weakened and he must brake sooner into 
downhill corners. With discs he can return to his "normal" braking points 
and over all is not as fatigued in his hands and wrists. I am not saying 
yay or nay, just describing a specific situation.

On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 8:09:11 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I'm putting this in a new thread, because I have some questions. Note: I'm 
> not disagreeing, I'm asking because I want to know more. 
>
> Clayton said, in the Rivs On Block thread:
>
> *- More margin betw. rim and brake to adjust for rub. Disc brakes usually 
> have much tighter clearances and make it a much more fiddly affair to get 
> rid of rub (applies mostly to hydros)*
> *- Typically lighter weight*
> *[...]*
> *- Pads tend to last longer*
>
> #1: I agree that this is very true for mechanical discs, but for 
> hydraulics? I thought that pads for hydraulics allowed more gap than those 
> for mechanicals, at least once-sided-pull mechanicals. For me, this isn't 
> merely academic; it may influence my choice of mechanicals over hydraulics 
> one day.
>
> #2: Yes, calipers are lighter, but then disc-specific rims can be much 
> lighter than rim brake rims, at least in the wider sizes.
>
> #3: I've read that this is true; I've also read the opposite (recently, in 
> a review of some disc setup -- Bike Radar? Which one is true?
>
> I do know that my Kool Stop salmons seem to last years if not decades.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Very interesting. So, upshot, at least per Mitch's experience: if you have
sufficiently wide tires, the discs, at least hydraulics, can stop easier --
and "better" in this sense -- on road bikes with aluminum rims by requiring
less concentration and "technique" in hard slowdowns at high speed. I
wonder at which tire width this becomes significant? Probably at not much
under 40 mm?



On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Mitch Harris  wrote:

>
>
> Right, you hope they're not comparing discs to rim-braking on carbon brake
> tracks where rim-braking is not at it's best.
> I've noticed I do brake later into steep high speed road turns on my disc
> road bike, turns that require coming down from 50 mph to 20pmh on my canyon
> descents, but the biggest difference in late braking is with wider tires.
> When I compare are tires (41mm Baby Shoe Pass EL) with brazed-on Raids on
> A23 rims vs. TRP Hy/Rds 160 rotors with Modolo levers on Pacenti TL28 rims,
> I brake somewhat later with discs. But I noticed braking much later into
> these high speed turns on my most recent canyon descents on 47-48 Switch
> Back Hill EL tires. I'm guessing I'd also brake later on rim brakes with
> SBH tires too--they fit on my bike with Raids but not under the fenders so
> I may have to remove fenders to try it sometime.
>
> In general I don't see a lot of difference in braking quality or power in
> these two road set-ups, rim vs. disc, except that the same amount of
> braking requires somewhat less hand effort with discs. Both seem to do
> really well with high speed descending on pavement with heavy braking for
> tight switchbacks. Hand effort seems really good to me with the Raids too,
> much less hand effort than required with the regular old single pivot
> Record brakes I'm used to. But hand effort is still noticeably less with
> discs.
>
> But the big difference in late braking for me has been with increasing
> tire width. This surprises me because I was doing these same 50mph to 20mph
> turns on 25mm tires with no complaints before I started riding fatter tires
> on the road. I'd hear descending was faster on fat tires and I would think
> maybe that's just for riders who aren't fast descenders. But I think the
> difference is there because I brake noticeably laters on 42mm tires
> compared to 25mm and then on 48mm tires the late braking is really
> noticeable. I think the reason for the late braking is probably two things
> (?): there is more grip with the larger contact patch, but also wider tires
> soak up more road irregularity and surface roughness through the turn and
> on narrower tires I feel like I need to get speed down a little earlier in
> preparation so I can manage that roughness leaned over while with the wider
> tires I'm more ok leaning the bike over and trusting the tires to handle
> more of that roughness than narrow tires can on their own.
>
> The late braking difference in lower hand effort seems to come from the
> fact that I notice I use progressive stages of hand effort when I scrub a
> lot of speed (50 down to 20). BTW, all of this braking I do on descents is
> from the hoods.  On rim brake Raids, I squeeze and lose a lot of speed, but
> then there is a harder squeeze I have to ramp up to with more hand strength
> to get down to the safe 20mph to go through the sharp sweeper turn. Some
> people might do this all with one progressively firmer squeeze but for me
> it does feel like two separate squeeze--one big firm one then a really hard
> one.  On disc Hy/Rds I don't require that second stage of harder. One stage
> of firm hand pressure on Hy/Rds takes me all the way down to 20mph. This
> simpler process lets me brake later I think, or at least that seems one
> likely explanation, all else being equal. (The old school Record single
> pivots handle the same 50mph down to 20mph turns just fine but it takes
> noticeably more hand pressure than the Raids.)
>
> --Mitch
>
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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

['Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The most amazing bicycle horror story yet... Glad you are OK. 
Clay

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Mitch Harris]

On Sunday, July 2, 2017 at 3:15:02 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Speaking of discs versus calipers, I've read in more than one place that 
> discs are useful on racing bikes because they stop faster and therefore let 
> you go faster into a corner before you have to slow down, so that you can 
> negotiate corners faster than with calipers. 
>
> I daresay that hydraulic discs will jam a wheel still with less finger 
> pressure than any caliper, but so what -- when you have a tiny rubber 
> patch, what advantage does a more powerful "squeeze" make?
>
> Note that I'm not figuring carbon fiber rims into the equation here; i 
> daresay that, since calipers work less well on cf rims than on aluminum 
> ones, discs on road bikes with cf rims may well be useful in that regard. 
> But consider the question asked for bikes with aluminum rims.
>
> So, is this bogus, or is it true?
>
> I think discs have advantages over calipers that make them useful for 
> certain types of riding in certain conditions, but I am very skeptical of 
> this claim.
>

Right, you hope they're not comparing discs to rim-braking on carbon brake 
tracks where rim-braking is not at it's best. 
I've noticed I do brake later into steep high speed road turns on my disc 
road bike, turns that require coming down from 50 mph to 20pmh on my canyon 
descents, but the biggest difference in late braking is with wider tires. 
When I compare are tires (41mm Baby Shoe Pass EL) with brazed-on Raids on 
A23 rims vs. TRP Hy/Rds 160 rotors with Modolo levers on Pacenti TL28 rims, 
I brake somewhat later with discs. But I noticed braking much later into 
these high speed turns on my most recent canyon descents on 47-48 Switch 
Back Hill EL tires. I'm guessing I'd also brake later on rim brakes with 
SBH tires too--they fit on my bike with Raids but not under the fenders so 
I may have to remove fenders to try it sometime.

In general I don't see a lot of difference in braking quality or power in 
these two road set-ups, rim vs. disc, except that the same amount of 
braking requires somewhat less hand effort with discs. Both seem to do 
really well with high speed descending on pavement with heavy braking for 
tight switchbacks. Hand effort seems really good to me with the Raids too, 
much less hand effort than required with the regular old single pivot 
Record brakes I'm used to. But hand effort is still noticeably less with 
discs. 

But the big difference in late braking for me has been with increasing tire 
width. This surprises me because I was doing these same 50mph to 20mph 
turns on 25mm tires with no complaints before I started riding fatter tires 
on the road. I'd hear descending was faster on fat tires and I would think 
maybe that's just for riders who aren't fast descenders. But I think the 
difference is there because I brake noticeably laters on 42mm tires 
compared to 25mm and then on 48mm tires the late braking is really 
noticeable. I think the reason for the late braking is probably two things 
(?): there is more grip with the larger contact patch, but also wider tires 
soak up more road irregularity and surface roughness through the turn and 
on narrower tires I feel like I need to get speed down a little earlier in 
preparation so I can manage that roughness leaned over while with the wider 
tires I'm more ok leaning the bike over and trusting the tires to handle 
more of that roughness than narrow tires can on their own. 

The late braking difference in lower hand effort seems to come from the 
fact that I notice I use progressive stages of hand effort when I scrub a 
lot of speed (50 down to 20). BTW, all of this braking I do on descents is 
from the hoods.  On rim brake Raids, I squeeze and lose a lot of speed, but 
then there is a harder squeeze I have to ramp up to with more hand strength 
to get down to the safe 20mph to go through the sharp sweeper turn. Some 
people might do this all with one progressively firmer squeeze but for me 
it does feel like two separate squeeze--one big firm one then a really hard 
one.  On disc Hy/Rds I don't require that second stage of harder. One stage 
of firm hand pressure on Hy/Rds takes me all the way down to 20mph. This 
simpler process lets me brake later I think, or at least that seems one 
likely explanation, all else being equal. (The old school Record single 
pivots handle the same 50mph down to 20mph turns just fine but it takes 
noticeably more hand pressure than the Raids.)

--Mitch 

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Max S]

"In a study of Americans ages 20-34, occupational therapists found that men 
younger than 30 have significantly weaker hand grips than their counterparts in 
1985 did. The same was true of women ages 20-24, according to the study 
published online by the Journal of Hand Therapy a few months back."

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/13/481590997/millennials-may-be-losing-their-grip

Just sayin'. :-P

- Max in A2

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Matt B.]

Thanks Keith. Yeah I was a little banged up but amazingly nothing serious, 
definitely lucky.  I'm 90% sure the frame is fine / not bent, but guess I 
won't know until I can ride it again (once I get a straight fork).

Keep the rubber side down and watch out for aggressive trees man :)


Matt


On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 9:47:35 PM UTC-4, iamkeith wrote:
>
> Jeesh, Matt!  Hope you're ok, and hope it's just the fork that needs to be 
> replaced.
>
> I guess I'd completely overlooked that part of the argument for less-stiff 
> blades, but now it makes sense.
>
> Otherwise, I think this might be one of the few places where I disagree 
> with Grant, and believe that there is a ride quality advantage too. 
>  Perhaps not "suspension," but definitely the ability to absosorb vibration 
> or "chatter."  
>
> I can visibly see it happen on my clem (hunqapillar) and '93 MB-1 forks. 
>  I'd like to buy a go-pro and make a video like this, to illustrate:
>
> https://youtu.be/uo-bastzh7c
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[iamkeith]

Jeesh, Matt!  Hope you're ok, and hope it's just the fork that needs to be 
replaced.

I guess I'd completely overlooked that part of the argument for less-stiff 
blades, but now it makes sense.

Otherwise, I think this might be one of the few places where I disagree with 
Grant, and believe that there is a ride quality advantage too.  Perhaps not 
"suspension," but definitely the ability to absosorb vibration or "chatter."  

I can visibly see it happen on my clem (hunqapillar) and '93 MB-1 forks.  I'd 
like to buy a go-pro and make a video like this, to illustrate:

https://youtu.be/uo-bastzh7c

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Whoa, dude. You need to play Lotto.

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 8:14:29 PM UTC-4, Matt B. wrote:
>
>
> 
>
>
> On the subject of fork flex, as Grant has often pointed out, a good 
> advantage of traditional disc (rim) brakes is that because a steel fork 
> does not have to be so stiff, it will bend more easily in a crash and 
> potentially save the frame.  As it happens I took advantage of this feature 
> with my Quickbeam a few weeks ago on the local bikeway when a tree fell 
> across the path*, landing directly on my front wheel and crushing it and 
> bending my fork. The frame is fine as far as I can tell, whereas if I had a 
> disc fork, who knows. I have bent forks before from more typical crash 
> scenarios, so this flexibility does come in handy now and then :)
>
> Matt
>
>
> *yes I did have audible warning that this was happening (tree falling) but 
> by the time I figured out what the hell that cracking sound was, it was too 
> late.  
>
>
>
> On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 1:28:03 PM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>
>> There must be some fork bounciness, but it's hard to isolate the effects 
>> of forks, tires, wheels, weight distribution, and front-center dimensions 
>> when you're riding over bumps. Also, there's the tremendous but usually 
>> neglected in "technical discussions" effects of rider-joint-springs. It's 
>> been my experience (so, I believe) that the rider and the tire are the two 
>> most important shock absorbers. I believe that so much that it seems almost 
>> insulting to even state it. If yoiur position allows relaxed arms (not 
>> under compression from too-low bars), then they'll soak up tons. If the 
>> tires are fat enough and soft enough, they'll soak up lots more. If your 
>> wheels are more ahead and behind you than beneath you, the bumps won't 
>> affect you as much. But mostly, joints and tires. To look for cush in steel 
>> forks...it's like looking for protein in broccoli when there's fried cow 
>> right there next to it.
>> A suspension fork can add an extra measure of shock soakup, but by its 
>> presence can also lead to less effective joint use, or harder tires, or 
>> worse technique. It may not, but it can. 
>> At some point it's useful to pan back and ask how heinous an enemy a bump 
>> is, and what kind of artillary's needed to tame it.In a race, the more 
>> stuff you have, the faster you'll go. Not in a race, you have the fantastic 
>> luxury of slowing down and navigating btw the bumps at a speed that allows 
>> them to be a fun but not threatening part. 
>> I don't have everything all figured out for the world, I just know what 
>> my preferences are, and I'm not dumb enough to think everybody's like me or 
>> should be...or like Rivendell. Plus, there's so much variety out there, and 
>> it's fun to try it. From a totally purely RBW business tactical approach--- 
>> which never kicks in entirely without being diluted by emotion and gut and 
>> laughs—all I can say  is that it's unlikely we'll put shocks or disc brakes 
>> on single bikes. Imagine the fear it would trigger at Specialized, Trek, 
>> and Giant if we did! (That is a joke). 
>> The bike industry is suffering these years, and the biggies feel it most. 
>> Naturally they will grab any opportunity to grow or strengthen and not 
>> appear behind the times. If one of the three does something, the others 
>> will, too. Rivendell's not at that point. We have a few super fun things 
>> coming up in the next year or so, but they aren't conventional innovations 
>> or tech makeovers. (Our form of "innovation" is something like the 
>> welded-in lifter handle.) Last night, Mark, Roman, Will, and I talked for 
>> 20 minutes mostly after hours about moving things on the Cheviot 3mm on one 
>> size, four on another, to make a difference that nobody will ever notice 
>> except maybe Mark. We do tiny things!
>>
>> On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 1:17:14 PM UTC-7, Jesse wrote:
>>>
>>> I've heard a handful of folks on either the iBOB or 650b groups say 
>>> their Riv forks are too stout for their liking. Makes me wonder how much 
>>> compliance a full blown low trail Jeff Lyon fork or somesuch has compared 
>>> to the average Riv. 
>>>
>>> No experience w/ disc, but I'm guessing running fat tires tubeless @ low 
>>> PSI compensates a bit for the overbuilt nature of disc forks. 
>>>
>>> I remember Matt Chester talking about why he preferred rim brakes.. 
>>> something to the effect of disc use stressing the frame. Pretty sure Grant 
>>> mentions this issue as well. Have always wondered if this is just a 
>>> convenient data point for folks in the rim brake camp, or if it's a serious 
>>> thing that would cause frame issues down the road.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Joe Bernard]

The problem with carbon isn't money but heat. Alloy rims and discs operate best 
when cool, then fade as heat builds up between pad and braking surface on a 
long descent. Carbon is reversed: They're crap when cold, then come in as heat 
is generated by high-horsepower F1 cars or MotoGP bikes. A bicycle doesn't have 
enough weight or velocity to keep a carbon brake at operating temperature. 

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Matt B.]

On the subject of fork flex, as Grant has often pointed out, a good 
advantage of traditional disc (rim) brakes is that because a steel fork 
does not have to be so stiff, it will bend more easily in a crash and 
potentially save the frame.  As it happens I took advantage of this feature 
with my Quickbeam a few weeks ago on the local bikeway when a tree fell 
across the path*, landing directly on my front wheel and crushing it and 
bending my fork. The frame is fine as far as I can tell, whereas if I had a 
disc fork, who knows. I have bent forks before from more typical crash 
scenarios, so this flexibility does come in handy now and then :)

Matt


*yes I did have audible warning that this was happening (tree falling) but 
by the time I figured out what the hell that cracking sound was, it was too 
late.  



On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 1:28:03 PM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> There must be some fork bounciness, but it's hard to isolate the effects 
> of forks, tires, wheels, weight distribution, and front-center dimensions 
> when you're riding over bumps. Also, there's the tremendous but usually 
> neglected in "technical discussions" effects of rider-joint-springs. It's 
> been my experience (so, I believe) that the rider and the tire are the two 
> most important shock absorbers. I believe that so much that it seems almost 
> insulting to even state it. If yoiur position allows relaxed arms (not 
> under compression from too-low bars), then they'll soak up tons. If the 
> tires are fat enough and soft enough, they'll soak up lots more. If your 
> wheels are more ahead and behind you than beneath you, the bumps won't 
> affect you as much. But mostly, joints and tires. To look for cush in steel 
> forks...it's like looking for protein in broccoli when there's fried cow 
> right there next to it.
> A suspension fork can add an extra measure of shock soakup, but by its 
> presence can also lead to less effective joint use, or harder tires, or 
> worse technique. It may not, but it can. 
> At some point it's useful to pan back and ask how heinous an enemy a bump 
> is, and what kind of artillary's needed to tame it.In a race, the more 
> stuff you have, the faster you'll go. Not in a race, you have the fantastic 
> luxury of slowing down and navigating btw the bumps at a speed that allows 
> them to be a fun but not threatening part. 
> I don't have everything all figured out for the world, I just know what my 
> preferences are, and I'm not dumb enough to think everybody's like me or 
> should be...or like Rivendell. Plus, there's so much variety out there, and 
> it's fun to try it. From a totally purely RBW business tactical approach--- 
> which never kicks in entirely without being diluted by emotion and gut and 
> laughs—all I can say  is that it's unlikely we'll put shocks or disc brakes 
> on single bikes. Imagine the fear it would trigger at Specialized, Trek, 
> and Giant if we did! (That is a joke). 
> The bike industry is suffering these years, and the biggies feel it most. 
> Naturally they will grab any opportunity to grow or strengthen and not 
> appear behind the times. If one of the three does something, the others 
> will, too. Rivendell's not at that point. We have a few super fun things 
> coming up in the next year or so, but they aren't conventional innovations 
> or tech makeovers. (Our form of "innovation" is something like the 
> welded-in lifter handle.) Last night, Mark, Roman, Will, and I talked for 
> 20 minutes mostly after hours about moving things on the Cheviot 3mm on one 
> size, four on another, to make a difference that nobody will ever notice 
> except maybe Mark. We do tiny things!
>
> On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 1:17:14 PM UTC-7, Jesse wrote:
>>
>> I've heard a handful of folks on either the iBOB or 650b groups say their 
>> Riv forks are too stout for their liking. Makes me wonder how much 
>> compliance a full blown low trail Jeff Lyon fork or somesuch has compared 
>> to the average Riv. 
>>
>> No experience w/ disc, but I'm guessing running fat tires tubeless @ low 
>> PSI compensates a bit for the overbuilt nature of disc forks. 
>>
>> I remember Matt Chester talking about why he preferred rim brakes.. 
>> something to the effect of disc use stressing the frame. Pretty sure Grant 
>> mentions this issue as well. Have always wondered if this is just a 
>> convenient data point for folks in the rim brake camp, or if it's a serious 
>> thing that would cause frame issues down the road.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks.

Gawd, this all-over-the-field "discussion" makes me happy to be on the rbw list.

Upshot of all the back-and-forth: discs (hydraulic? Not said) modulate better 
-- maybe.

I'm mot convinced. (Note origonal question.)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 2, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Garth  wrote:
> 
> Here is a good discussion about rim and disc brakes . 
> http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/1092227-braking-stopping-power-question.html
> 
> Apparently carbon makes for a poor brake surface for any brake, unless you 
> are an F1 team and have the unlimited funds to make some discs that do work 
> well in F1 cars. The rims the pros use today are aluminum based and carbon 
> fused on the exterior to all but the braking surface. So you get lighter rims 
> than alloy alone and that still have an alloy braking surface. 
> 
> While the bike industry would love for pros to adopt their brakes, many have 
> tried them but prefer rim brakes. When it comes to riders safety they should 
> always be the ones making the call. So both brakes have their place for 
> certain riders and conditions. For many though the idea of adding signifigant 
> weight to the bike trumps the endless argument of better/worse. Yes, for them 
> it is signifigant. And then there are still some safety concerns of the 
> roters since they are so sharp and the possiblility of a deep cut, different 
> than a chainring. 
> 
> Aa for the perceived power and race strategy, riding a bike is really an art. 
> It's not just what you ride but how you ride it, your intuition of how and 
> when and why to take corners let alone everything else about it. Each is 
> unique, Such is life !  Bravo !  
> 
> Winning a sprint has nothing to do with brakes of course, and what you see on 
> TV of close-ups of Kittels discs makes for good advertising and all, as does 
> the whole race. But discs are pereived as "new and hot", look, "our hero 
> Marcel rides discs, buy some".  Human see human copy  that's the theory 
> at least ahahahahahaa !  
> 
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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Garth]

Here is a good discussion about rim and disc brakes . 
http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/1092227-braking-stopping-power-question.html

Apparently carbon makes for a poor brake surface for any brake, unless you are 
an F1 team and have the unlimited funds to make some discs that do work well in 
F1 cars. The rims the pros use today are aluminum based and carbon fused on the 
exterior to all but the braking surface. So you get lighter rims than alloy 
alone and that still have an alloy braking surface. 

While the bike industry would love for pros to adopt their brakes, many have 
tried them but prefer rim brakes. When it comes to riders safety they should 
always be the ones making the call. So both brakes have their place for certain 
riders and conditions. For many though the idea of adding signifigant weight to 
the bike trumps the endless argument of better/worse. Yes, for them it is 
signifigant. And then there are still some safety concerns of the roters since 
they are so sharp and the possiblility of a deep cut, different than a 
chainring. 

Aa for the perceived power and race strategy, riding a bike is really an art. 
It's not just what you ride but how you ride it, your intuition of how and when 
and why to take corners let alone everything else about it. Each is unique, 
Such is life !  Bravo !  

Winning a sprint has nothing to do with brakes of course, and what you see on 
TV of close-ups of Kittels discs makes for good advertising and all, as does 
the whole race. But discs are pereived as "new and hot", look, "our hero Marcel 
rides discs, buy some".  Human see human copy  that's the theory at 
least ahahahahahaa !  

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Jon BALER]

The tour de France made history today with disc brakes... But my rosco Bubbe v2 
has been great with caliper brakes. 

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Speaking of discs versus calipers, I've read in more than one place that
discs are useful on racing bikes because they stop faster and therefore let
you go faster into a corner before you have to slow down, so that you can
negotiate corners faster than with calipers.

I daresay that hydraulic discs will jam a wheel still with less finger
pressure than any caliper, but so what -- when you have a tiny rubber
patch, what advantage does a more powerful "squeeze" make?

Note that I'm not figuring carbon fiber rims into the equation here; i
daresay that, since calipers work less well on cf rims than on aluminum
ones, discs on road bikes with cf rims may well be useful in that regard.
But consider the question asked for bikes with aluminum rims.

So, is this bogus, or is it true?

I think discs have advantages over calipers that make them useful for
certain types of riding in certain conditions, but I am very skeptical of
this claim.

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Grant @ Rivendell]

There must be some fork bounciness, but it's hard to isolate the effects of 
forks, tires, wheels, weight distribution, and front-center dimensions when 
you're riding over bumps. Also, there's the tremendous but usually 
neglected in "technical discussions" effects of rider-joint-springs. It's 
been my experience (so, I believe) that the rider and the tire are the two 
most important shock absorbers. I believe that so much that it seems almost 
insulting to even state it. If yoiur position allows relaxed arms (not 
under compression from too-low bars), then they'll soak up tons. If the 
tires are fat enough and soft enough, they'll soak up lots more. If your 
wheels are more ahead and behind you than beneath you, the bumps won't 
affect you as much. But mostly, joints and tires. To look for cush in steel 
forks...it's like looking for protein in broccoli when there's fried cow 
right there next to it.
A suspension fork can add an extra measure of shock soakup, but by its 
presence can also lead to less effective joint use, or harder tires, or 
worse technique. It may not, but it can. 
At some point it's useful to pan back and ask how heinous an enemy a bump 
is, and what kind of artillary's needed to tame it.In a race, the more 
stuff you have, the faster you'll go. Not in a race, you have the fantastic 
luxury of slowing down and navigating btw the bumps at a speed that allows 
them to be a fun but not threatening part. 
I don't have everything all figured out for the world, I just know what my 
preferences are, and I'm not dumb enough to think everybody's like me or 
should be...or like Rivendell. Plus, there's so much variety out there, and 
it's fun to try it. From a totally purely RBW business tactical approach--- 
which never kicks in entirely without being diluted by emotion and gut and 
laughs—all I can say  is that it's unlikely we'll put shocks or disc brakes 
on single bikes. Imagine the fear it would trigger at Specialized, Trek, 
and Giant if we did! (That is a joke). 
The bike industry is suffering these years, and the biggies feel it most. 
Naturally they will grab any opportunity to grow or strengthen and not 
appear behind the times. If one of the three does something, the others 
will, too. Rivendell's not at that point. We have a few super fun things 
coming up in the next year or so, but they aren't conventional innovations 
or tech makeovers. (Our form of "innovation" is something like the 
welded-in lifter handle.) Last night, Mark, Roman, Will, and I talked for 
20 minutes mostly after hours about moving things on the Cheviot 3mm on one 
size, four on another, to make a difference that nobody will ever notice 
except maybe Mark. We do tiny things!

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 1:17:14 PM UTC-7, Jesse wrote:
>
> I've heard a handful of folks on either the iBOB or 650b groups say their 
> Riv forks are too stout for their liking. Makes me wonder how much 
> compliance a full blown low trail Jeff Lyon fork or somesuch has compared 
> to the average Riv. 
>
> No experience w/ disc, but I'm guessing running fat tires tubeless @ low 
> PSI compensates a bit for the overbuilt nature of disc forks. 
>
> I remember Matt Chester talking about why he preferred rim brakes.. 
> something to the effect of disc use stressing the frame. Pretty sure Grant 
> mentions this issue as well. Have always wondered if this is just a 
> convenient data point for folks in the rim brake camp, or if it's a serious 
> thing that would cause frame issues down the road.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

That's not a bad article, though some of both the pro's and con's are
nit-picky and not of real importance in real life -- eg, on the "pro" side,
that you can slap reflective tap on your rims' braking surface. Sure, I
choose my brakes based on reflective tape; and in fact, the light disc rims
don't bother with brake tracks. (And not all light disc rims are carbon
fiber, tho' this has me wondering about some nice carbon fiber 29er rims --
lessee, 40 mm wide, 375 grams ...). And on the "con" side, harder to
maintain and more complex than rim or drum brakes. Not quite; cantis, at
least for the masses? Getting the effing little cable hook re-attached on V
brakes? Drum brakes? *Drum brakes?*

Also: " they're only slightly less maddening than a chain case to remove
and replace a wheel.  I've yet to do so without a work stand and tools,
since the caliper has required re-centering every time the rear wheel is
replaced.  Rim and drum brakes don't have this problem, and they can be
used with existing framesets."

What world is he from? That's bogus! At least, it applies only to an
alternative universe. It's easier to remove and re-install a wheel with all
the discs I've used, than with cantis or V brakes and this with rear-ward
facing dropouts, too. True, you need a certain finesse -- you can't just
shove the damned thing in anywhichway, but it's certainly no harder than
getting a 32 mm tire in between the pads of a caliper brake.

But I do really think that, on the whole, he gives discs their due.


On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Garth  wrote:

>
> Here's another perspective on the pro/con .
>
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/disc-brakes.html
>
>
>   The more I acquaint myself with disc brakes pros and cons I can see
> where GP is coming from in not offering discs. For the intended uses and
> ride qualities of a frame of his design yeah, I can where there would be
> some changes required that do not agree with this.  It's just not as simple
> as slapping on disc mounts as is.
>
>   So the merits/demerits of disc brakes along is not the matter here, it's
> "are they suitable for intention GP has for his frame designs ?"
>
>Well gee, who am I to question what someone else intends ?   Laughable
> !.. utterly Laughable !!!
>
> --
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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Garth]

Here's another perspective on the pro/con .

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/disc-brakes.html


  The more I acquaint myself with disc brakes pros and cons I can see where 
GP is coming from in not offering discs. For the intended uses and ride 
qualities of a frame of his design yeah, I can where there would be some 
changes required that do not agree with this.  It's just not as simple as 
slapping on disc mounts as is.

  So the merits/demerits of disc brakes along is not the matter here, it's 
"are they suitable for intention GP has for his frame designs ?"  

   Well gee, who am I to question what someone else intends ?   Laughable 
!.. utterly Laughable !!! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I'd love to see a photo of your disc'd Atlantis.

As for Jan's take on discs, I don't consider him a disc expert. Certainly,
in my 50 years of riding all sorts of brakes, from rods to rod/Bowden
hybrids, to Altenbergers, to mechanical discs, I deny that mechanicals with
160 mm rotors are not as powerful as centerpulls; certainly not in my
experience. And the modulation thing is hardly a defect, it's so small.

I wholly agree that discs are not magic; nor are they flimflam from evil
marketers. They are one choice among others, with their own pro's and
con's, and their own place given certain circumstances.

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 11:49 AM, William! 
wrote:

> After almost 10 years of commuting and touring I wrecked my Atlantis when
> a car pulled out in front of me. Besides taco'ing the wheel, it needed a
> new fork and tube replacements. When I got it rebuilt, I decided to switch
> to disc brakes instead of staying with cantilevers.
>
> I'll start out by saying that the canti's on my Atlantis worked fine. I
> love the classic look of cantis, and in my experience modern cantilever
> brakes are easy to maintain and adjust. I routinely run tires 45mm+ tires,
> so I never considered v-brakes or centerpulls. Had I not wrecked the bike,
> I would have happily kept riding cantilevers as long as my Atlantis held
> out.
>
> That said, I live in Portland, where you may have heard it rains a lot. I
> bike in all weather, all year. On really rainy days, braking performance
> degrades significantly when my rims get wet. Usually this isn't a big deal
> – you simply learn to brake in advance to clear the rims of water and
> restore full stopping power. However, if you need to stop suddenly and
> unexpectedly it can be a problem. Over several winters of commuting in this
> city, this happened to me a many times. It never resulted in a crash, but I
> had close calls. And had it been raining when I crashed my Atlantis, I
> likely would not have walked away.  After a lot of thought and consulting
> with an experienced builder, I chose to switch to disc brakes on my
> resurrected Atlantis.
>
> This *is not* to say I think Rivendell should offer a disc option on the
> Atlantis or any other frame they offer. Discs have plenty of trade-offs
> ,
> and if my riding involved less commuting in cities, riding in the rain less
> often or running narrower tires then I likely would have made a different
> choice. The nature of offering production frames is that you make
> trade-offs that make sense for most of your customers. Rivendell knows
> their customers' needs best (and what kinds of customers they want to have
> in the first place), so all I can say is that it was it wasn't best for *me
> *and *my bike*.
>
> Best,
> William
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Oh, yes. DiscoHunq. Genius. Now they almost have to do it. Maybe a disco
>> ball with a J. Travolta figure wearing Riv Spats as the headbadge...
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 1:50:22 PM UTC-4, ascpgh wrote:
>>>
>>> Mark wrote: " I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it
>>> could be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar,"
>>>
>>> "DiscoHunq"?
>>>
>>> Grant had said a rim is a rotor. Having never replaced a rotor on either
>>> of the two bikes I've had with disk, I find the argument that you don't
>>> have to replace worn brake web rims is a weak one for me. Mine usually need
>>> replacement/rebuilding for becoming less-than-round from the collected
>>> bumps not seen before being hit.
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy Cheatham
>>>
>>> Pittsburgh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:36:58 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:

 Written in this thread:

 *But I don't think discs would dilute his product; after all, isn't
 what most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and the feel? If not,
 if it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're just pretty
 consumer objects.*


 *Of all the niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are
 pretty much the easiest to do as an aftermarket change.*
 I think it is more than just what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, or
 Grant being a "retrogrouch" and simply not doing "niggling little things"
 for the sake of that label. (Also,  I would not call current Rivendells,
 with OS tubing, upsloping top tubes--and the long head tubes that
 creates--fat tires, V brakes, super long stems, super long chainstays,
 etc., particularly retro--certainly not l'eroica. But that's another
 topic.)

 After not having visited in a long time, despite being only an hour and
 change train ride away, I found myself 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Clayton.sf]

Safety! Now there is an argument to upgrade the whole stable! ;-)

On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 10:49:45 AM UTC-7, William! wrote:
>
> After almost 10 years of commuting and touring I wrecked my Atlantis when 
> a car pulled out in front of me. Besides taco'ing the wheel, it needed a 
> new fork and tube replacements. When I got it rebuilt, I decided to switch 
> to disc brakes instead of staying with cantilevers.
>
> I'll start out by saying that the canti's on my Atlantis worked fine. I 
> love the classic look of cantis, and in my experience modern cantilever 
> brakes are easy to maintain and adjust. I routinely run tires 45mm+ tires, 
> so I never considered v-brakes or centerpulls. Had I not wrecked the bike, 
> I would have happily kept riding cantilevers as long as my Atlantis held 
> out.
>
> That said, I live in Portland, where you may have heard it rains a lot. I 
> bike in all weather, all year. On really rainy days, braking performance 
> degrades significantly when my rims get wet. Usually this isn't a big deal 
> – you simply learn to brake in advance to clear the rims of water and 
> restore full stopping power. However, if you need to stop suddenly and 
> unexpectedly it can be a problem. Over several winters of commuting in this 
> city, this happened to me a many times. It never resulted in a crash, but I 
> had close calls. And had it been raining when I crashed my Atlantis, I 
> likely would not have walked away.  After a lot of thought and consulting 
> with an experienced builder, I chose to switch to disc brakes on my 
> resurrected Atlantis.
>
> This *is not* to say I think Rivendell should offer a disc option on the 
> Atlantis or any other frame they offer. Discs have plenty of trade-offs 
> , 
> and if my riding involved less commuting in cities, riding in the rain less 
> often or running narrower tires then I likely would have made a different 
> choice. The nature of offering production frames is that you make 
> trade-offs that make sense for most of your customers. Rivendell knows 
> their customers' needs best (and what kinds of customers they want to have 
> in the first place), so all I can say is that it was it wasn't best for *me 
> *and *my bike*.
>
> Best,
> William
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Oh, yes. DiscoHunq. Genius. Now they almost have to do it. Maybe a disco 
>> ball with a J. Travolta figure wearing Riv Spats as the headbadge...
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 1:50:22 PM UTC-4, ascpgh wrote:
>>>
>>> Mark wrote: " I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it 
>>> could be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar,"
>>>
>>> "DiscoHunq"?
>>>
>>> Grant had said a rim is a rotor. Having never replaced a rotor on either 
>>> of the two bikes I've had with disk, I find the argument that you don't 
>>> have to replace worn brake web rims is a weak one for me. Mine usually need 
>>> replacement/rebuilding for becoming less-than-round from the collected 
>>> bumps not seen before being hit.
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy Cheatham
>>>
>>> Pittsburgh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:36:58 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:

 Written in this thread:

 *But I don't think discs would dilute his product; after all, isn't 
 what most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and the feel? If not, 
 if it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're just pretty 
 consumer objects.*


 *Of all the niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are 
 pretty much the easiest to do as an aftermarket change.*
 I think it is more than just what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, or 
 Grant being a "retrogrouch" and simply not doing "niggling little things" 
 for the sake of that label. (Also,  I would not call current Rivendells, 
 with OS tubing, upsloping top tubes--and the long head tubes that 
 creates--fat tires, V brakes, super long stems, super long chainstays, 
 etc., particularly retro--certainly not l'eroica. But that's another 
 topic.) 

 After not having visited in a long time, despite being only an hour and 
 change train ride away, I found myself in New York City several times this 
 past month on business. The bicycle infrastructure has certainly grown. 
 But 
 the biggest change I noticed was the proliferation of people riding 
 bicycles that they were not pedaling.  And how they interacted with other 
 traffic--particularly other cyclists. In the bike shops, even my local, 
 tiny mom and pop that features mostly Kona commuters (and in a recent 
 Compass email showing a bunch of wheels lying around) I am amazed at the 
 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Hugh Smitham]

Good points William.

Now let's get a look at this resurrected Anlanti with discs.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/



On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:49 AM, William! 
wrote:

> After almost 10 years of commuting and touring I wrecked my Atlantis when
> a car pulled out in front of me. Besides taco'ing the wheel, it needed a
> new fork and tube replacements. When I got it rebuilt, I decided to switch
> to disc brakes instead of staying with cantilevers.
>
> I'll start out by saying that the canti's on my Atlantis worked fine. I
> love the classic look of cantis, and in my experience modern cantilever
> brakes are easy to maintain and adjust. I routinely run tires 45mm+ tires,
> so I never considered v-brakes or centerpulls. Had I not wrecked the bike,
> I would have happily kept riding cantilevers as long as my Atlantis held
> out.
>
> That said, I live in Portland, where you may have heard it rains a lot. I
> bike in all weather, all year. On really rainy days, braking performance
> degrades significantly when my rims get wet. Usually this isn't a big deal
> – you simply learn to brake in advance to clear the rims of water and
> restore full stopping power. However, if you need to stop suddenly and
> unexpectedly it can be a problem. Over several winters of commuting in this
> city, this happened to me a many times. It never resulted in a crash, but I
> had close calls. And had it been raining when I crashed my Atlantis, I
> likely would not have walked away.  After a lot of thought and consulting
> with an experienced builder, I chose to switch to disc brakes on my
> resurrected Atlantis.
>
> This *is not* to say I think Rivendell should offer a disc option on the
> Atlantis or any other frame they offer. Discs have plenty of trade-offs
> ,
> and if my riding involved less commuting in cities, riding in the rain less
> often or running narrower tires then I likely would have made a different
> choice. The nature of offering production frames is that you make
> trade-offs that make sense for most of your customers. Rivendell knows
> their customers' needs best (and what kinds of customers they want to have
> in the first place), so all I can say is that it was it wasn't best for *me
> *and *my bike*.
>
> Best,
> William
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Oh, yes. DiscoHunq. Genius. Now they almost have to do it. Maybe a disco
>> ball with a J. Travolta figure wearing Riv Spats as the headbadge...
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 1:50:22 PM UTC-4, ascpgh wrote:
>>>
>>> Mark wrote: " I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it
>>> could be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar,"
>>>
>>> "DiscoHunq"?
>>>
>>> Grant had said a rim is a rotor. Having never replaced a rotor on either
>>> of the two bikes I've had with disk, I find the argument that you don't
>>> have to replace worn brake web rims is a weak one for me. Mine usually need
>>> replacement/rebuilding for becoming less-than-round from the collected
>>> bumps not seen before being hit.
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy Cheatham
>>>
>>> Pittsburgh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:36:58 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:

 Written in this thread:

 *But I don't think discs would dilute his product; after all, isn't
 what most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and the feel? If not,
 if it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're just pretty
 consumer objects.*


 *Of all the niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are
 pretty much the easiest to do as an aftermarket change.*
 I think it is more than just what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, or
 Grant being a "retrogrouch" and simply not doing "niggling little things"
 for the sake of that label. (Also,  I would not call current Rivendells,
 with OS tubing, upsloping top tubes--and the long head tubes that
 creates--fat tires, V brakes, super long stems, super long chainstays,
 etc., particularly retro--certainly not l'eroica. But that's another
 topic.)

 After not having visited in a long time, despite being only an hour and
 change train ride away, I found myself in New York City several times this
 past month on business. The bicycle infrastructure has certainly grown. But
 the biggest change I noticed was the proliferation of people riding
 bicycles that they were not pedaling.  And how they interacted with other
 traffic--particularly other cyclists. In the bike shops, even my local,
 tiny mom and pop that features mostly 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[William!]

After almost 10 years of commuting and touring I wrecked my Atlantis when a 
car pulled out in front of me. Besides taco'ing the wheel, it needed a new 
fork and tube replacements. When I got it rebuilt, I decided to switch to 
disc brakes instead of staying with cantilevers.

I'll start out by saying that the canti's on my Atlantis worked fine. I 
love the classic look of cantis, and in my experience modern cantilever 
brakes are easy to maintain and adjust. I routinely run tires 45mm+ tires, 
so I never considered v-brakes or centerpulls. Had I not wrecked the bike, 
I would have happily kept riding cantilevers as long as my Atlantis held 
out.

That said, I live in Portland, where you may have heard it rains a lot. I 
bike in all weather, all year. On really rainy days, braking performance 
degrades significantly when my rims get wet. Usually this isn't a big deal 
– you simply learn to brake in advance to clear the rims of water and 
restore full stopping power. However, if you need to stop suddenly and 
unexpectedly it can be a problem. Over several winters of commuting in this 
city, this happened to me a many times. It never resulted in a crash, but I 
had close calls. And had it been raining when I crashed my Atlantis, I 
likely would not have walked away.  After a lot of thought and consulting 
with an experienced builder, I chose to switch to disc brakes on my 
resurrected Atlantis.

This *is not* to say I think Rivendell should offer a disc option on the 
Atlantis or any other frame they offer. Discs have plenty of trade-offs 
, and 
if my riding involved less commuting in cities, riding in the rain less 
often or running narrower tires then I likely would have made a different 
choice. The nature of offering production frames is that you make 
trade-offs that make sense for most of your customers. Rivendell knows 
their customers' needs best (and what kinds of customers they want to have 
in the first place), so all I can say is that it was it wasn't best for *me 
*and *my bike*.

Best,
William


On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Oh, yes. DiscoHunq. Genius. Now they almost have to do it. Maybe a disco 
> ball with a J. Travolta figure wearing Riv Spats as the headbadge...
>
> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 1:50:22 PM UTC-4, ascpgh wrote:
>>
>> Mark wrote: " I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it could 
>> be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar,"
>>
>> "DiscoHunq"?
>>
>> Grant had said a rim is a rotor. Having never replaced a rotor on either 
>> of the two bikes I've had with disk, I find the argument that you don't 
>> have to replace worn brake web rims is a weak one for me. Mine usually need 
>> replacement/rebuilding for becoming less-than-round from the collected 
>> bumps not seen before being hit.
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> Andy Cheatham
>>
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:36:58 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>>
>>> Written in this thread:
>>>
>>> *But I don't think discs would dilute his product; after all, isn't what 
>>> most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and the feel? If not, if 
>>> it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're just pretty consumer 
>>> objects.*
>>>
>>>
>>> *Of all the niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are 
>>> pretty much the easiest to do as an aftermarket change.*
>>> I think it is more than just what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, or 
>>> Grant being a "retrogrouch" and simply not doing "niggling little things" 
>>> for the sake of that label. (Also,  I would not call current Rivendells, 
>>> with OS tubing, upsloping top tubes--and the long head tubes that 
>>> creates--fat tires, V brakes, super long stems, super long chainstays, 
>>> etc., particularly retro--certainly not l'eroica. But that's another 
>>> topic.) 
>>>
>>> After not having visited in a long time, despite being only an hour and 
>>> change train ride away, I found myself in New York City several times this 
>>> past month on business. The bicycle infrastructure has certainly grown. But 
>>> the biggest change I noticed was the proliferation of people riding 
>>> bicycles that they were not pedaling.  And how they interacted with other 
>>> traffic--particularly other cyclists. In the bike shops, even my local, 
>>> tiny mom and pop that features mostly Kona commuters (and in a recent 
>>> Compass email showing a bunch of wheels lying around) I am amazed at the 
>>> number of discs to be found--a braking system adopted from motorcycles. On 
>>> a recent group ride, several riders had electronic shifting. I know I read 
>>> somewhere Grant talking about these emerging--and merging--trends, and what 
>>> that will mean in 15-20 years. 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Oh, yes. DiscoHunq. Genius. Now they almost have to do it. Maybe a disco 
ball with a J. Travolta figure wearing Riv Spats as the headbadge...

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 1:50:22 PM UTC-4, ascpgh wrote:
>
> Mark wrote: " I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it could 
> be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar,"
>
> "DiscoHunq"?
>
> Grant had said a rim is a rotor. Having never replaced a rotor on either 
> of the two bikes I've had with disk, I find the argument that you don't 
> have to replace worn brake web rims is a weak one for me. Mine usually need 
> replacement/rebuilding for becoming less-than-round from the collected 
> bumps not seen before being hit.
>
>
> 
>
>
> Andy Cheatham
>
> Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:36:58 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Written in this thread:
>>
>> *But I don't think discs would dilute his product; after all, isn't what 
>> most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and the feel? If not, if 
>> it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're just pretty consumer 
>> objects.*
>>
>>
>> *Of all the niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are 
>> pretty much the easiest to do as an aftermarket change.*
>> I think it is more than just what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, or Grant 
>> being a "retrogrouch" and simply not doing "niggling little things" for the 
>> sake of that label. (Also,  I would not call current Rivendells, with OS 
>> tubing, upsloping top tubes--and the long head tubes that creates--fat 
>> tires, V brakes, super long stems, super long chainstays, etc., 
>> particularly retro--certainly not l'eroica. But that's another topic.) 
>>
>> After not having visited in a long time, despite being only an hour and 
>> change train ride away, I found myself in New York City several times this 
>> past month on business. The bicycle infrastructure has certainly grown. But 
>> the biggest change I noticed was the proliferation of people riding 
>> bicycles that they were not pedaling.  And how they interacted with other 
>> traffic--particularly other cyclists. In the bike shops, even my local, 
>> tiny mom and pop that features mostly Kona commuters (and in a recent 
>> Compass email showing a bunch of wheels lying around) I am amazed at the 
>> number of discs to be found--a braking system adopted from motorcycles. On 
>> a recent group ride, several riders had electronic shifting. I know I read 
>> somewhere Grant talking about these emerging--and merging--trends, and what 
>> that will mean in 15-20 years. This is a person who's career has been 
>> defined by, not retrostyling or retrogrouching, but thinking about bicycles 
>> and what defines a good, useful, aesthetically pleasing, joyful one, and at 
>> the same time bucking trends that seem to complicate or distract from that.
>>
>> For someone that thinks about these things, maybe it starts to become, 
>> not what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, but what makes a bicycle a bicycle. 
>> And where would you come down to draw that line, based on your own feelings 
>> and opinions about it, especially as a small-scale designer and seller of 
>> bicycles. (I am not implying here that Grant thinks bicycles with disc 
>> brakes are not bicycles. In fact, I am not implying anything about what he 
>> thinks, just speculatin' on the internets!) Someone once mentioned to my 
>> tai chi teacher that they had heard of others who were combining tai chi 
>> with music and more dance-like forms, and was that okay. Master Yu replied 
>> "Tai chi is tai chi. Shaolin is shaolin. Dance is dance." I know, not a 
>> perfect analogy, but perhaps enough to make my point. But then again, there 
>> is that Reese's commercial, "Hey, you got chocolate in my peanut butter." 
>>  
>>
>> Grant has alluded to other staff members having various levels of input 
>> on some of the Rosco bikes. Some builds now feature STI, as configured by 
>> "staff name here." I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it 
>> could be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar, or what have you. 
>> Electronic shifting and seat tube motor optional (the full Reese's!)
>>
>> Quote: *I don't understand the animus against a Riv with discs.*
>>
>> I would not argue that these trends don't have their place. It could be a 
>> very good development in many respects, considering some of the problems of 
>> the world. But at what point should the vehicles featuring them be called 
>> something other than a bicycle? Anyway, as we know, Rivendell, tandem 
>> excepted, does not currently make disc brake bikes, for reasons they have 
>> explained any number of times. And in actuality, any animus regarding this 
>> design choice (too strong a word either way though--frustration?) would 
>> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[ascpgh]

Mark wrote: " I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it could 
be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar,"

"DiscoHunq"?

Grant had said a rim is a rotor. Having never replaced a rotor on either of 
the two bikes I've had with disk, I find the argument that you don't have 
to replace worn brake web rims is a weak one for me. Mine usually need 
replacement/rebuilding for becoming less-than-round from the collected 
bumps not seen before being hit.




Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh





On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:36:58 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Written in this thread:
>
> *But I don't think discs would dilute his product; after all, isn't what 
> most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and the feel? If not, if 
> it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're just pretty consumer 
> objects.*
>
>
> *Of all the niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are 
> pretty much the easiest to do as an aftermarket change.*
> I think it is more than just what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, or Grant 
> being a "retrogrouch" and simply not doing "niggling little things" for the 
> sake of that label. (Also,  I would not call current Rivendells, with OS 
> tubing, upsloping top tubes--and the long head tubes that creates--fat 
> tires, V brakes, super long stems, super long chainstays, etc., 
> particularly retro--certainly not l'eroica. But that's another topic.) 
>
> After not having visited in a long time, despite being only an hour and 
> change train ride away, I found myself in New York City several times this 
> past month on business. The bicycle infrastructure has certainly grown. But 
> the biggest change I noticed was the proliferation of people riding 
> bicycles that they were not pedaling.  And how they interacted with other 
> traffic--particularly other cyclists. In the bike shops, even my local, 
> tiny mom and pop that features mostly Kona commuters (and in a recent 
> Compass email showing a bunch of wheels lying around) I am amazed at the 
> number of discs to be found--a braking system adopted from motorcycles. On 
> a recent group ride, several riders had electronic shifting. I know I read 
> somewhere Grant talking about these emerging--and merging--trends, and what 
> that will mean in 15-20 years. This is a person who's career has been 
> defined by, not retrostyling or retrogrouching, but thinking about bicycles 
> and what defines a good, useful, aesthetically pleasing, joyful one, and at 
> the same time bucking trends that seem to complicate or distract from that.
>
> For someone that thinks about these things, maybe it starts to become, not 
> what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, but what makes a bicycle a bicycle. And 
> where would you come down to draw that line, based on your own feelings and 
> opinions about it, especially as a small-scale designer and seller of 
> bicycles. (I am not implying here that Grant thinks bicycles with disc 
> brakes are not bicycles. In fact, I am not implying anything about what he 
> thinks, just speculatin' on the internets!) Someone once mentioned to my 
> tai chi teacher that they had heard of others who were combining tai chi 
> with music and more dance-like forms, and was that okay. Master Yu replied 
> "Tai chi is tai chi. Shaolin is shaolin. Dance is dance." I know, not a 
> perfect analogy, but perhaps enough to make my point. But then again, there 
> is that Reese's commercial, "Hey, you got chocolate in my peanut butter." 
>  
>
> Grant has alluded to other staff members having various levels of input on 
> some of the Rosco bikes. Some builds now feature STI, as configured by 
> "staff name here." I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it 
> could be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar, or what have you. 
> Electronic shifting and seat tube motor optional (the full Reese's!)
>
> Quote: *I don't understand the animus against a Riv with discs.*
>
> I would not argue that these trends don't have their place. It could be a 
> very good development in many respects, considering some of the problems of 
> the world. But at what point should the vehicles featuring them be called 
> something other than a bicycle? Anyway, as we know, Rivendell, tandem 
> excepted, does not currently make disc brake bikes, for reasons they have 
> explained any number of times. And in actuality, any animus regarding this 
> design choice (too strong a word either way though--frustration?) would 
> appear to be more from the Why *won't* Riv do discs camp.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I just read it.

Good articles, and I agree with most of what he says.

Still, disc brakes have their place, among the advantages is very light
rims; that and not wearing out expensive rims quickly are the main reasons
I like discs on my dirt road bike.

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Garth  wrote:

> He goes into that in the second link Patrick.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Garth]

He goes into that in the second link Patrick. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

the V-brake was the worst of both worlds really, but that's a whole
different article


Now why would he say that?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Garth]

Here is a perspective from Rodriguez Bikes who custom builds tandem, road, mtb 
and touring frames and bikes. 

http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco-fever/disco-fever.html

http://rodcycle.com/articles/brakes.html


   And for those thinking they can just have some fittings brazed on to their 
Riv as-is, think again. Interesting about the wheel builds from RodBikes, they 
use a heavier rim and spokes for their disc setups than cantilever. 1.5 to 2 
pounds total extra. 

   Grant has already his position on this whole disc brake deal btw, period end 
of story on their end. This is not the same as lugs, lugs have nothing to do 
with the actual riding experience of the bike, brakes do. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Your colleagues' awkwardness with getting into and out of pedals makes me
think of my younger self, some 25+ years ago, when I started using slotted
cleats and early clipless systems -- Grafton! Sampson! -- I recall the
(very carefully hidden) trepidation with which I approached every red light
and stop sign. (I'd been using clips and straps with street shoes since the
early 1970s.) I recall thinking myself pretty expert when I began using
Specialized cyclocross shoes with slotted cleats and mildly spiked soles
for mountain biking, and experiencing a small shiver of self congratulation
when a riding colleague asked me, mixing wonder and doubt, whether they
were safe.

Age brings expertise ...Except I still can't get into Looks easily! (No
more Looks in the fleet, though.)

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 4:32 AM, ascpgh  wrote:

> [...]
>
> Of all the higher tech, lower weight, improved float range and management
> pedals available out there, I seldom observe many on our urban group rides
> who have mastered getting in and out of them, resulting in very early
> unclipping while still moving along pretty well and braking, which seems
> like a a control issue to me. I stay connected until stopped. Riv content:
> my comparatively low BB and overall frame design lets me to steady myself
> adequately without coming off the saddle. So many of the plastic go faster
> bike riders have to come off their seats, unsnap their prop foot and brake
> in the group when approaching traffic controls.
>
> Failure to electrically shift to a gear permitting pedaling from a stop
> and finding the pedal with their cleat and overcoming their Nelson Vails
> degree of retention force adjustment just demonstrates that I prefer to
> master what I ride.
>
> Tonight's offering: http://www.teamdecaf.com/images/
> CaliforniaHereWeCome26%20miles.pdf
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Written in this thread:

*But I don't think discs would dilute his product; after all, isn't what 
most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and the feel? If not, if 
it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're just pretty consumer 
objects.*


*Of all the niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are 
pretty much the easiest to do as an aftermarket change.*
I think it is more than just what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, or Grant 
being a "retrogrouch" and simply not doing "niggling little things" for the 
sake of that label. (Also,  I would not call current Rivendells, with OS 
tubing, upsloping top tubes--and the long head tubes that creates--fat 
tires, V brakes, super long stems, super long chainstays, etc., 
particularly retro--certainly not l'eroica. But that's another topic.) 

After not having visited in a long time, despite being only an hour and 
change train ride away, I found myself in New York City several times this 
past month on business. The bicycle infrastructure has certainly grown. But 
the biggest change I noticed was the proliferation of people riding 
bicycles that they were not pedaling.  And how they interacted with other 
traffic--particularly other cyclists. In the bike shops, even my local, 
tiny mom and pop that features mostly Kona commuters (and in a recent 
Compass email showing a bunch of wheels lying around) I am amazed at the 
number of discs to be found--a braking system adopted from motorcycles. On 
a recent group ride, several riders had electronic shifting. I know I read 
somewhere Grant talking about these emerging--and merging--trends, and what 
that will mean in 15-20 years. This is a person who's career has been 
defined by, not retrostyling or retrogrouching, but thinking about bicycles 
and what defines a good, useful, aesthetically pleasing, joyful one, and at 
the same time bucking trends that seem to complicate or distract from that.

For someone that thinks about these things, maybe it starts to become, not 
what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, but what makes a bicycle a bicycle. And 
where would you come down to draw that line, based on your own feelings and 
opinions about it, especially as a small-scale designer and seller of 
bicycles. (I am not implying here that Grant thinks bicycles with disc 
brakes are not bicycles. In fact, I am not implying anything about what he 
thinks, just speculatin' on the internets!) Someone once mentioned to my 
tai chi teacher that they had heard of others who were combining tai chi 
with music and more dance-like forms, and was that okay. Master Yu replied 
"Tai chi is tai chi. Shaolin is shaolin. Dance is dance." I know, not a 
perfect analogy, but perhaps enough to make my point. But then again, there 
is that Reese's commercial, "Hey, you got chocolate in my peanut butter." 
 

Grant has alluded to other staff members having various levels of input on 
some of the Rosco bikes. Some builds now feature STI, as configured by 
"staff name here." I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it 
could be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar, or what have you. 
Electronic shifting and seat tube motor optional (the full Reese's!)

Quote: *I don't understand the animus against a Riv with discs.*

I would not argue that these trends don't have their place. It could be a 
very good development in many respects, considering some of the problems of 
the world. But at what point should the vehicles featuring them be called 
something other than a bicycle? Anyway, as we know, Rivendell, tandem 
excepted, does not currently make disc brake bikes, for reasons they have 
explained any number of times. And in actuality, any animus regarding this 
design choice (too strong a word either way though--frustration?) would 
appear to be more from the Why *won't* Riv do discs camp.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[ascpgh]

I use SPDs, or should I say I have mastered using them and have stuck with 
them 

I stay out of the clipless/platform conversations. This is an old habit and 
muscle memory I've had since rehabbing from injury/surgery. Had pretty 
serious neuropathy and proprioception trouble and kept my foot from 
floating off the pedal at top of the stroke with double strap toe clips at 
first, clipless when the walkable cleat matured.

Of all the higher tech, lower weight, improved float range and management 
pedals available out there, I seldom observe many on our urban group rides 
who have mastered getting in and out of them, resulting in very early 
unclipping while still moving along pretty well and braking, which seems 
like a a control issue to me. I stay connected until stopped. Riv content: 
my comparatively low BB and overall frame design lets me to steady myself 
adequately without coming off the saddle. So many of the plastic go faster 
bike riders have to come off their seats, unsnap their prop foot and brake 
in the group when approaching traffic controls.  

Failure to electrically shift to a gear permitting pedaling from a stop and 
finding the pedal with their cleat and overcoming their Nelson Vails degree 
of retention force adjustment just demonstrates that I prefer to master 
what I ride. 

Tonight's offering: 
http://www.teamdecaf.com/images/CaliforniaHereWeCome26%20miles.pdf

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh


On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 3:59:32 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Andy: I take it that you are riding no-retention?
>
> Aside: interesting: I used MKS RX-1 track pedals on my gofast for a while, 
> with clips and straps and strap buttons (very useful little doodads), and 
> excessively kool old skool Rivats with leather soles and 2-bolt slotted 
> cleats. I found it quite easy to slip in and tighten the right foot. When I 
> switched to Keos, I never was able to clip with with the same aplomb and 
> elegance as with the Rivats. (Now I use almost-as-cool-as-the-Rivats 8 
> speed era Dura Ace single sided SPD pedals with old, adapted, Mavic road 
> shoes -- much easier than the Keos but not as easy as the Rivats-cum-RX-1s.)
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:53 AM, ascpgh  
> wrote:
>
>> It is notable that I make more time on them in our urban rides when stop 
>> lights turn green. The combination of the apparent mysterious cycle leading 
>> to that surprise green light and the exhibited under-rehearsed clipping-in 
>> of their down foot when the color change occurs gives me almost a half 
>> block lead without mechanical advantages. I have too many years of 
>> commuting to draw the ire of surrounding motorists for slow uptake of the 
>> "GO" signal or mechanical fumbling slowing my departure from the 
>> intersection. 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Orc]

I know I'm sounding like a parrot here and I'll stfu after this, but Riv 
sells steel bikes and of the approximately 1,000,000 framebuilders in the 
United States (true, most of them are in Portland, but bikeflights is your 
friend) there are bound to be some are capable of and would happily put 
proper disc mounts onto the Riv machine of your choice.   Of all the 
niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are pretty much the 
easiest to do as an aftermarket change.

-david parsons

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 10:44:51 PM UTC-7, Ash A wrote:
>
> Someone else in this thread said why should it be one way or the other. 
>  There are many, many aspects of Riv bikes that I swear by - which is the 
> reason I spend 3x the money (as compared to off-the-shelf choices I had 
> considered) building one.   Introducing discs doesn't make all the other 
> fabulous things go away.  I had looked at one bike (maybe SOMA) that 
> supported both discs and rim brakes.  Perhaps such design adds to the cost 
> and changes certain ride characteristics. Just how today on my Joe I can 
> chose a V-brake or Cantis, it'd be great if there was an option to go with 
> disc if there's a reason.   
>
> I don't have a reason to go with discs. I also think they would noise to 
> the way my bike looks.  However, I can live with those mounts being there 
> on my bike.
>
>
> Question to Jay Connolly:  what's the bigger tire (with fenders) do you 
> think I can have on my Appaloosa if I were to use Avid Single-Digit 7? 
>  Thanks.
>
>
> On Monday, 26 June 2017 06:41:00 UTC-7, Jay Connolly wrote:
>>
>> I used only canti brakes a quite a while. Then I went ro discs. When I 
>> discovered v-brakes, I wondered why I had bothered with discs. For true 
>> MTBs, I think discs are an advantage in mud, and I prefer XT-level 
>> hydraulics, which have been faultless, for me. Most mechanicals are fiddly, 
>> though the best I've found are TRP Spyres, which are less so. Back to 
>> v-brakes: TRP CX9s are the strongest brakes I have used--bar none, 
>> including discs. They don't allow much more than a 35mm tire with fenders, 
>> but they are strong enough to pitch anyone over the bars. On my Appaloosa 
>> I'm running Avid Single-Digit 7s, ands they are more than strong enough for 
>> me--as good or better than any mechanical disc I've used.
>>
>> Having said that, there's this: Riv can't win the battle against industry 
>> "progress" on this issue, unfortunately, because the perception will be 
>> that the bikes are pre-obsolete and the fear will be that replacement parts 
>> will be unavailable. Both will hit sales harder and harder as time marches 
>> forward. I ride with 30-year-olds who have never owned a bike without 
>> discs. As these people age and acquire the earning power to embrace a wider 
>> set of values in their bicycles, they will likely reject the bikes on the 
>> brake issue. I love everything about the company, including their 
>> collective stubbornness, but I would also like to see the business survive 
>> and thrive.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Ash A]

Someone else in this thread said why should it be one way or the other. 
 There are many, many aspects of Riv bikes that I swear by - which is the 
reason I spend 3x the money (as compared to off-the-shelf choices I had 
considered) building one.   Introducing discs doesn't make all the other 
fabulous things go away.  I had looked at one bike (maybe SOMA) that 
supported both discs and rim brakes.  Perhaps such design adds to the cost 
and changes certain ride characteristics. Just how today on my Joe I can 
chose a V-brake or Cantis, it'd be great if there was an option to go with 
disc if there's a reason.   

I don't have a reason to go with discs. I also think they would noise to 
the way my bike looks.  However, I can live with those mounts being there 
on my bike.


Question to Jay Connolly:  what's the bigger tire (with fenders) do you 
think I can have on my Appaloosa if I were to use Avid Single-Digit 7? 
 Thanks.


On Monday, 26 June 2017 06:41:00 UTC-7, Jay Connolly wrote:
>
> I used only canti brakes a quite a while. Then I went ro discs. When I 
> discovered v-brakes, I wondered why I had bothered with discs. For true 
> MTBs, I think discs are an advantage in mud, and I prefer XT-level 
> hydraulics, which have been faultless, for me. Most mechanicals are fiddly, 
> though the best I've found are TRP Spyres, which are less so. Back to 
> v-brakes: TRP CX9s are the strongest brakes I have used--bar none, 
> including discs. They don't allow much more than a 35mm tire with fenders, 
> but they are strong enough to pitch anyone over the bars. On my Appaloosa 
> I'm running Avid Single-Digit 7s, ands they are more than strong enough for 
> me--as good or better than any mechanical disc I've used.
>
> Having said that, there's this: Riv can't win the battle against industry 
> "progress" on this issue, unfortunately, because the perception will be 
> that the bikes are pre-obsolete and the fear will be that replacement parts 
> will be unavailable. Both will hit sales harder and harder as time marches 
> forward. I ride with 30-year-olds who have never owned a bike without 
> discs. As these people age and acquire the earning power to embrace a wider 
> set of values in their bicycles, they will likely reject the bikes on the 
> brake issue. I love everything about the company, including their 
> collective stubbornness, but I would also like to see the business survive 
> and thrive.
>
> Jay
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Chauncey builds great bikes, but he doesn't build bikes that handle like
Rivendells, and I'm not sure another builder to do so would be that easy to
find, and certainly not at Chauncey's prices.

I must say though that my hankering for a Hunq is a very light or modest
hankering; I'm very happy with the Matthews.

Moving back to disc brakes: the point I was trying to make is that discs
are not some sort of evil modernity foisted on the hapless bicycle buying
public, they are a brake option that has real merits that any reasonable
builder will at least consider on these merits.

I think that much of the sales pitch is hype, but disc brakes as such are
not *in se* mere hype.

Now, perhaps Grant will never, ever build a disc-braked bike, and that's
fine; it's his company. But I don't think discs would dilute his product;
after all, isn't what most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and
the feel? If not, if it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're
just pretty consumer objects.

And Hugh, I'm not picking on you at all, just used your post as the
occasion to make my points.

Aside: read an old NYT review of Just Ride, and saw that Grant said that,
after all, bikes should *above all* be fun, and that the highest accolade
for a good bike is *that it's a toy!* Approve heartily! (A very useful toy,
but it's the fun that is the most important thing, otherwise we'd just go
out and buy cars, or mopeds, or utility bikes.)

But with this book, he’s trying to bring biking back to a state of
moderation and rationality. If you like the gear, he’s fine with that, and
if you don’t agree with all his advice, no problem. But he makes the case
that at its core, biking should be a simple, democratic, sometimes
ludicrously enjoyable means of getting around. “No matter how much your
bike costs,” he says, “unless you use it to make a living, it is a toy, and
it should be fun.” Amen.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

> Lol. The defect. Hahaha. I think your point of view is a little fiddly.
> You have a Matthews, which is a custom builder of frames. So presumably you
> could have built whatever type of bike you wanted which would have the ride
> characteristic you seek. You could have told Matthews I want a single top
> tube disc Hunq and he may have told you to go find another builder. But
> some builder will build you what you want.
>
> My point in your selection of my post is pointing out one reason Rivendell
> is likely to resist modern change like adopting discs or discarding quill
> stems. They did succumb to tig welding to achieve a price point and open up
> the pool of enthusiasts that value the Rivendell ethos and aesthetic. That
> was a smart business maneuver. If they go modern they risk watering down
> their brand. For better or worse Grant made their niche.
>
> I'll take my Bantam 1.125 threadless headset, disc brakes and high stack
> height/ Jones bars over a hunq or Atlantis, which is exactly what I did. It
> does what I wished my Atlantis had been capable of.
>
> To be clear I love many aspects of what Riv does. Beautiful frames and
> forks, 7, 8 & 9 speed drives a get out there and ride ethos. But especially
> the people, the Rivendell people are the absolute best. This means you.
>
> ~hugh
>
>
>
> On Jun 26, 2017 1:03 PM, "Patrick Moore"  wrote:
>
> The defect of this point of view is that one would not be able to get a
> bike that handles and fits and feels like a Rivendell, but that has disc
> brakes, short of taking your Hunq or Atlantis to a local builder.
>
> I'd swap my Matthews, as much as I like it, for a disc-brake Hunq! (But
> single top tube only!)
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Hugh Smitham 
> wrote:
>
>> All very interesting comments.
>>
>> I see a Rivendell like I see a vintage volvo or vintage muscle car in
>> regards to the enthusiast values the aesthetic of a different era of
>> manufacture. This is why I would not expect Rivendell to change. They exist
>> as a niche within the greater whole. If you want a modern bicycle for a
>> specific reason then as others mention there are ton's of off the shelf or
>> custom way's to go.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Hugh Smitham]

Lol. The defect. Hahaha. I think your point of view is a little fiddly. You
have a Matthews, which is a custom builder of frames. So presumably you
could have built whatever type of bike you wanted which would have the ride
characteristic you seek. You could have told Matthews I want a single top
tube disc Hunq and he may have told you to go find another builder. But
some builder will build you what you want.

My point in your selection of my post is pointing out one reason Rivendell
is likely to resist modern change like adopting discs or discarding quill
stems. They did succumb to tig welding to achieve a price point and open up
the pool of enthusiasts that value the Rivendell ethos and aesthetic. That
was a smart business maneuver. If they go modern they risk watering down
their brand. For better or worse Grant made their niche.

I'll take my Bantam 1.125 threadless headset, disc brakes and high stack
height/ Jones bars over a hunq or Atlantis, which is exactly what I did. It
does what I wished my Atlantis had been capable of.

To be clear I love many aspects of what Riv does. Beautiful frames and
forks, 7, 8 & 9 speed drives a get out there and ride ethos. But especially
the people, the Rivendell people are the absolute best. This means you.

~hugh



On Jun 26, 2017 1:03 PM, "Patrick Moore"  wrote:

The defect of this point of view is that one would not be able to get a
bike that handles and fits and feels like a Rivendell, but that has disc
brakes, short of taking your Hunq or Atlantis to a local builder.

I'd swap my Matthews, as much as I like it, for a disc-brake Hunq! (But
single top tube only!)


On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

> All very interesting comments.
>
> I see a Rivendell like I see a vintage volvo or vintage muscle car in
> regards to the enthusiast values the aesthetic of a different era of
> manufacture. This is why I would not expect Rivendell to change. They exist
> as a niche within the greater whole. If you want a modern bicycle for a
> specific reason then as others mention there are ton's of off the shelf or
> custom way's to go.
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Garth]

Canti brakes are not going away anytime soon. Of course "the industry" is 
pushing them because that is their business, to sell stuff and for no other 
reason. (Don't get me started on how the cassette wheel system is supposedly so 
superior to the fw system. ahahahahahaa!, and save the rebuttals for 
babylon)

  Here is an interesting read. 
https://davidrroberts.wordpress.com/2016/02/16/cx-brakes/


Seems canti and all rim brakes are alive and well even in the mud, and thank 
goodness many in Europe are not so fast to jump on a bandwagon just because 
someone says jump on, it's what you need. America is eutopia for that, I'm 
suprised many shops don't have lines around the block with folks who just 
cannot wait to get a disc bike!  "I want it because I want it". and why do 
you want it ? "Because I want it !" 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Orc]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 12:16:46 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Jay Connolly prophesied what will happen if Rivendell doesn't make a 
> disc-brake single bike.  
>
> I've prophesied that Rivendell is not going to make a disc-brake single 
> bike.  
>
> *BUT*if they did decide to make a test run of disc brake equipped 
> bikes, what would you have them build? 
>

Disc Appa or Rosco.   The new crown on the Appaloosa fork has a more 
industrial look, so a proper disc mount would not look out of place  (and a 
12mm T-A dropout, in the world where mirror Grant went full disc fashion) 
would not overwhelm the fork blades plus it would open up a whole world of 
650b wheelsets instead of the anemic selection -- not that I'm bitter! -- 
of rim brakeable rims that can be put under them now.

-david parsons

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

The defect of this point of view is that one would not be able to get a
bike that handles and fits and feels like a Rivendell, but that has disc
brakes, short of taking your Hunq or Atlantis to a local builder.

I'd swap my Matthews, as much as I like it, for a disc-brake Hunq! (But
single top tube only!)

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

> All very interesting comments.
>
> I see a Rivendell like I see a vintage volvo or vintage muscle car in
> regards to the enthusiast values the aesthetic of a different era of
> manufacture. This is why I would not expect Rivendell to change. They exist
> as a niche within the greater whole. If you want a modern bicycle for a
> specific reason then as others mention there are ton's of off the shelf or
> custom way's to go.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Andy: I take it that you are riding no-retention?

Aside: interesting: I used MKS RX-1 track pedals on my gofast for a while,
with clips and straps and strap buttons (very useful little doodads), and
excessively kool old skool Rivats with leather soles and 2-bolt slotted
cleats. I found it quite easy to slip in and tighten the right foot. When I
switched to Keos, I never was able to clip with with the same aplomb and
elegance as with the Rivats. (Now I use almost-as-cool-as-the-Rivats 8
speed era Dura Ace single sided SPD pedals with old, adapted, Mavic road
shoes -- much easier than the Keos but not as easy as the Rivats-cum-RX-1s.)

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:53 AM, ascpgh  wrote:

> It is notable that I make more time on them in our urban rides when stop
> lights turn green. The combination of the apparent mysterious cycle leading
> to that surprise green light and the exhibited under-rehearsed clipping-in
> of their down foot when the color change occurs gives me almost a half
> block lead without mechanical advantages. I have too many years of
> commuting to draw the ire of surrounding motorists for slow uptake of the
> "GO" signal or mechanical fumbling slowing my departure from the
> intersection.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I think discs have been oversold in the bike market, and IME V brakes are
ideal brakes if you want stopping power, wide tires, and ease of setup. But
discs do have this advantage, that they allow you to use a very light rim
-- practically tubular rim weight. The Velocity Blunt SS has a claimed
weight of 430 grams in the 700C size -- that's the claimed weight of the
old MA40 - and this rim is 35 mm wide on the outside (forget inside
measurement). This is a big plus, IMO.

And, once you learn the technique of setting up mechanicals, they're not
that hard. Certainly, I've found them easier than cantilevers! Frankly, I
think mechanicals have a very useful niche in the brake world -- cheaper
and simpler than hydraulics, as far as I've read, and again, once you know
the technique, easy enough to set up. Don't dismiss the BB7s, either --
they're very good brakes.

I don't understand the animus against a Riv with discs. Disc brakes are
just brakes; they have their uses, as do all the other types. They oughtn't
to be tarred with the "marketing hi tek hype" brush.

That said, I think that most bikes ought to have rim brakes simply because
they are a simpler, cheaper way to get the effects you need, compared to
discs of any sort.

As for disc brakes on road bikes: I think that I am right in believing that
they are popular on road bikes because rim brakes don't work very well on
carbon fiber rims. Is this right?

(I wonder if cork pads would work on cf rims, as they do on wooden rims.
Come to think of that, why not wood rims instead of cf? But enough of the
tangential questions!)

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Jay Connolly  wrote:

> I used only canti brakes a quite a while. Then I went ro discs. When I
> discovered v-brakes, I wondered why I had bothered with discs. For true
> MTBs, I think discs are an advantage in mud, and I prefer XT-level
> hydraulics, which have been faultless, for me. Most mechanicals are fiddly,
> though the best I've found are TRP Spyres, which are less so. Back to
> v-brakes: TRP CX9s are the strongest brakes I have used--bar none,
> including discs. They don't allow much more than a 35mm tire with fenders,
> but they are strong enough to pitch anyone over the bars. On my Appaloosa
> I'm running Avid Single-Digit 7s, ands they are more than strong enough for
> me--as good or better than any mechanical disc I've used.
>
> Having said that, there's this: Riv can't win the battle against industry
> "progress" on this issue, unfortunately, because the perception will be
> that the bikes are pre-obsolete and the fear will be that replacement parts
> will be unavailable. Both will hit sales harder and harder as time marches
> forward. I ride with 30-year-olds who have never owned a bike without
> discs. As these people age and acquire the earning power to embrace a wider
> set of values in their bicycles, they will likely reject the bikes on the
> brake issue. I love everything about the company, including their
> collective stubbornness, but I would also like to see the business survive
> and thrive.
>
> Jay
>
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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Hugh Smitham]

All very interesting comments.

I see a Rivendell like I see a vintage volvo or vintage muscle car in 
regards to the enthusiast values the aesthetic of a different era of 
manufacture. This is why I would not expect Rivendell to change. They exist 
as a niche within the greater whole. If you want a modern bicycle for a 
specific reason then as others mention there are ton's of off the shelf or 
custom way's to go. 

On the OP about disc brakes. They have their place and purpose. In the 
continuum of all things mechanical a mechanical device is not without its 
specific peculiarity always a compromise. On my Bantam adventure 
(bikepacking) rig I have Paul Clampers mated to Shimano ice tech rotors. 
They stop great! They work great on a descent with a load and my hands 
aren't aching later. There is a point where no matter how good your braking 
is there will be lock up and a momentum slide, to me this is user error 
coming up to an obstruction/ feature too hot.  In loaded descents you can 
keep the rim brakes. What's annoying about the discs. On initially applying 
the brakes there's squeal on the rear then it's gone. And then there is the 
caliper/rotor rub, I loosen the caliper squeeze the lever and re-tighten 
the caliper. 

I think for purpose built bikes meant for the road or cross bikes rim 
brakes are plenty good. I have some mini-motos and they're awesome. On a 
quill stem v threadless. The quill wins on beauty but the 1 1/8 or tapered 
headset wins in the function arena. 

We are in what feels like to me the renaissance of bicycling similar to the 
late 19th century when 1 of every 2 patents was for a bicycle. Glad to be 
alive in this era.

~hugh

On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 8:09:11 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I'm putting this in a new thread, because I have some questions. Note: I'm 
> not disagreeing, I'm asking because I want to know more. 
>
> Clayton said, in the Rivs On Block thread:
>
> *- More margin betw. rim and brake to adjust for rub. Disc brakes usually 
> have much tighter clearances and make it a much more fiddly affair to get 
> rid of rub (applies mostly to hydros)*
> *- Typically lighter weight*
> *[...]*
> *- Pads tend to last longer*
>
> #1: I agree that this is very true for mechanical discs, but for 
> hydraulics? I thought that pads for hydraulics allowed more gap than those 
> for mechanicals, at least once-sided-pull mechanicals. For me, this isn't 
> merely academic; it may influence my choice of mechanicals over hydraulics 
> one day.
>
> #2: Yes, calipers are lighter, but then disc-specific rims can be much 
> lighter than rim brake rims, at least in the wider sizes.
>
> #3: I've read that this is true; I've also read the opposite (recently, in 
> a review of some disc setup -- Bike Radar? Which one is true?
>
> I do know that my Kool Stop salmons seem to last years if not decades.
>
> -- 
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> LinkedIn, and writing services, until Demand equals Supply! And there's 
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> contract. And still more!  I am offering services in trade for a road bike, 
> or frame and parts, that are period compatible with my AM hub, circa 1937 
> to 1961. See my website for what I do and what I charge; email for details.*
>
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Bill Lindsay]

Jay Connolly prophesied what will happen if Rivendell doesn't make a 
disc-brake single bike.  

I've prophesied that Rivendell is not going to make a disc-brake single 
bike.  

*BUT*if they did decide to make a test run of disc brake equipped 
bikes, what would you have them build?  In my opinion, the way they should 
do it would be to take the tandem and hack the middle out of it:  
https://www.rivbike.com/collections/web-special-frames/products/tandem?variant=39171992845

The segmented fork design allows them to use 9/8" threadless steerer 
without having to cast a new fork crown.  The existing braze-on headtube 
rings also are established components.  

They'd need a disc-brake tab solution, maybe off the shelf, and (I hope) a 
through-axle fork tip.  

The rear end is also close to done.  They could stay with the existing 
vertical QR dropouts, but a through axle would be much more 
forward-looking.  Mike Varley collaborated with SoulCraft to design the 
through axle solution for the SoulCraft Treehorn.  Maybe Riv could buy 
those dropouts.  

The result might be an even-beefier disc-Hunqapillar, made in Taiwan, and 
could be significantly less expensive than the $1800 price point of the 
tandem, maybe half-way between the $850 Clem and the $1800 tandem.  Maybe a 
$1300 frameset.  Build 50 of those to test the waters.  That wouldn't be 
impossible, and in the Rosco-Bubbe kind of batch-format, wouldn't involve 
any deep apostasy to their core values.  

I don't think they will do it, but if they did something like that, it 
would not be insane, in my opinion.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 6:41:00 AM UTC-7, Jay Connolly wrote:
>
> I used only canti brakes a quite a while. Then I went ro discs. When I 
> discovered v-brakes, I wondered why I had bothered with discs. For true 
> MTBs, I think discs are an advantage in mud, and I prefer XT-level 
> hydraulics, which have been faultless, for me. Most mechanicals are fiddly, 
> though the best I've found are TRP Spyres, which are less so. Back to 
> v-brakes: TRP CX9s are the strongest brakes I have used--bar none, 
> including discs. They don't allow much more than a 35mm tire with fenders, 
> but they are strong enough to pitch anyone over the bars. On my Appaloosa 
> I'm running Avid Single-Digit 7s, ands they are more than strong enough for 
> me--as good or better than any mechanical disc I've used.
>
> Having said that, there's this: Riv can't win the battle against industry 
> "progress" on this issue, unfortunately, because the perception will be 
> that the bikes are pre-obsolete and the fear will be that replacement parts 
> will be unavailable. Both will hit sales harder and harder as time marches 
> forward. I ride with 30-year-olds who have never owned a bike without 
> discs. As these people age and acquire the earning power to embrace a wider 
> set of values in their bicycles, they will likely reject the bikes on the 
> brake issue. I love everything about the company, including their 
> collective stubbornness, but I would also like to see the business survive 
> and thrive.
>
> Jay
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[ascpgh]

Meant to say "often" the only ferrous framed rider present some weeks.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 12:53:47 PM UTC-4, ascpgh wrote:
>
> I don't see it as any battle against industry "progress", but rather the 
> preservation of options. Objectively it can be argued that something is 
> better for whatever scalar  you choose, that does not make me like it. 
> Preference is very important when you have persisted in an equipment 
> dependent activity such cycling. 
>
> I prefer a manual transmission and when my car requires replacement, I'm 
> going to be in a very dark place for a very long time since that option is 
> becoming rare as hens' teeth. I realize how much faster modern cars are 
> with more gears in their auto boxes than a single stick could shift, I get 
> all the "improvements" and "benefits" but I'm talking about subjective 
> experiences here (and don't get me started about electric assist power 
> steering). Web pages are filled with the ranting inexperienced, reciting 
> numbers and data points substantiating their objective position on the 
> issue. I rebuilt several of my early cars' gearboxes, hydraulic clutch 
> systems and replaced clutch discs while opportune. I know how they work, I 
> appreciate that and operating them. The same goes for my bike gear. I have 
> preferences that are independent of "advances" that would make me (fill in 
> a performance scalar used by ad copy for latest cycling gear here).
>
> I ride with a bunch of 20-30 year olds from spring through fall and often 
> I am the only ferrous framed rider present and the only rider with fenders. 
> I don't even talk to them about having eight cogs that I operate with a 
> friction bar end shifter. It is notable that I make more time on them in 
> our urban rides when stop lights turn green. The combination of the 
> apparent mysterious cycle leading to that surprise green light and the 
> exhibited under-rehearsed clipping-in of their down foot when the color 
> change occurs gives me almost a half block lead without mechanical 
> advantages. I have too many years of commuting to draw the ire of 
> surrounding motorists for slow uptake of the "GO" signal or mechanical 
> fumbling slowing my departure from the intersection. 
>
> I recently switched out the original Shimano side pull (double pivot) 
> calipers with a pair of Paul's Racer center mount center pulls to grow some 
> tire and fender space on my Rambouillet and I love them. My commuter has 
> BB-7s and for its uses, I'm fine with them too. Subjectively I am having 
> more fun on my Ram because I am not going to or coming home from work. Both 
> kinds of brakes have a clear purpose to go on existing, and should. 
>
> Rivendell is a very good example of how to promote a set of options not in 
> resistance to any particular technology coming form the industry but rather 
> finding peace with a segment and promoting the ease of achieving cycling 
> happiness they find in their segment of the full bandwidth. 
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh,
>
>
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 9:41:00 AM UTC-4, Jay Connolly wrote:
>>
>> I used only canti brakes a quite a while. Then I went ro discs. When I 
>> discovered v-brakes, I wondered why I had bothered with discs. For true 
>> MTBs, I think discs are an advantage in mud, and I prefer XT-level 
>> hydraulics, which have been faultless, for me. Most mechanicals are fiddly, 
>> though the best I've found are TRP Spyres, which are less so. Back to 
>> v-brakes: TRP CX9s are the strongest brakes I have used--bar none, 
>> including discs. They don't allow much more than a 35mm tire with fenders, 
>> but they are strong enough to pitch anyone over the bars. On my Appaloosa 
>> I'm running Avid Single-Digit 7s, ands they are more than strong enough for 
>> me--as good or better than any mechanical disc I've used.
>>
>> Having said that, there's this: Riv can't win the battle against industry 
>> "progress" on this issue, unfortunately, because the perception will be 
>> that the bikes are pre-obsolete and the fear will be that replacement parts 
>> will be unavailable. Both will hit sales harder and harder as time marches 
>> forward. I ride with 30-year-olds who have never owned a bike without 
>> discs. As these people age and acquire the earning power to embrace a wider 
>> set of values in their bicycles, they will likely reject the bikes on the 
>> brake issue. I love everything about the company, including their 
>> collective stubbornness, but I would also like to see the business survive 
>> and thrive.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[ascpgh]

I don't see it as any battle against industry "progress", but rather the 
preservation of options. Objectively it can be argued that something is 
better for whatever scalar  you choose, that does not make me like it. 
Preference is very important when you have persisted in an equipment 
dependent activity such cycling. 

I prefer a manual transmission and when my car requires replacement, I'm 
going to be in a very dark place for a very long time since that option is 
becoming rare as hens' teeth. I realize how much faster modern cars are 
with more gears in their auto boxes than a single stick could shift, I get 
all the "improvements" and "benefits" but I'm talking about subjective 
experiences here (and don't get me started about electric assist power 
steering). Web pages are filled with the ranting inexperienced, reciting 
numbers and data points substantiating their objective position on the 
issue. I rebuilt several of my early cars' gearboxes, hydraulic clutch 
systems and replaced clutch discs while opportune. I know how they work, I 
appreciate that and operating them. The same goes for my bike gear. I have 
preferences that are independent of "advances" that would make me (fill in 
a performance scalar used by ad copy for latest cycling gear here).

I ride with a bunch of 20-30 year olds from spring through fall and often I 
am the only ferrous framed rider present and the only rider with fenders. I 
don't even talk to them about having eight cogs that I operate with a 
friction bar end shifter. It is notable that I make more time on them in 
our urban rides when stop lights turn green. The combination of the 
apparent mysterious cycle leading to that surprise green light and the 
exhibited under-rehearsed clipping-in of their down foot when the color 
change occurs gives me almost a half block lead without mechanical 
advantages. I have too many years of commuting to draw the ire of 
surrounding motorists for slow uptake of the "GO" signal or mechanical 
fumbling slowing my departure from the intersection. 

I recently switched out the original Shimano side pull (double pivot) 
calipers with a pair of Paul's Racer center mount center pulls to grow some 
tire and fender space on my Rambouillet and I love them. My commuter has 
BB-7s and for its uses, I'm fine with them too. Subjectively I am having 
more fun on my Ram because I am not going to or coming home from work. Both 
kinds of brakes have a clear purpose to go on existing, and should. 

Rivendell is a very good example of how to promote a set of options not in 
resistance to any particular technology coming form the industry but rather 
finding peace with a segment and promoting the ease of achieving cycling 
happiness they find in their segment of the full bandwidth. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh,


On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 9:41:00 AM UTC-4, Jay Connolly wrote:
>
> I used only canti brakes a quite a while. Then I went ro discs. When I 
> discovered v-brakes, I wondered why I had bothered with discs. For true 
> MTBs, I think discs are an advantage in mud, and I prefer XT-level 
> hydraulics, which have been faultless, for me. Most mechanicals are fiddly, 
> though the best I've found are TRP Spyres, which are less so. Back to 
> v-brakes: TRP CX9s are the strongest brakes I have used--bar none, 
> including discs. They don't allow much more than a 35mm tire with fenders, 
> but they are strong enough to pitch anyone over the bars. On my Appaloosa 
> I'm running Avid Single-Digit 7s, ands they are more than strong enough for 
> me--as good or better than any mechanical disc I've used.
>
> Having said that, there's this: Riv can't win the battle against industry 
> "progress" on this issue, unfortunately, because the perception will be 
> that the bikes are pre-obsolete and the fear will be that replacement parts 
> will be unavailable. Both will hit sales harder and harder as time marches 
> forward. I ride with 30-year-olds who have never owned a bike without 
> discs. As these people age and acquire the earning power to embrace a wider 
> set of values in their bicycles, they will likely reject the bikes on the 
> brake issue. I love everything about the company, including their 
> collective stubbornness, but I would also like to see the business survive 
> and thrive.
>
> Jay
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Jay Connolly]

I used only canti brakes a quite a while. Then I went ro discs. When I 
discovered v-brakes, I wondered why I had bothered with discs. For true MTBs, I 
think discs are an advantage in mud, and I prefer XT-level hydraulics, which 
have been faultless, for me. Most mechanicals are fiddly, though the best I've 
found are TRP Spyres, which are less so. Back to v-brakes: TRP CX9s are the 
strongest brakes I have used--bar none, including discs. They don't allow much 
more than a 35mm tire with fenders, but they are strong enough to pitch anyone 
over the bars. On my Appaloosa I'm running Avid Single-Digit 7s, ands they are 
more than strong enough for me--as good or better than any mechanical disc I've 
used.

Having said that, there's this: Riv can't win the battle against industry 
"progress" on this issue, unfortunately, because the perception will be that 
the bikes are pre-obsolete and the fear will be that replacement parts will be 
unavailable. Both will hit sales harder and harder as time marches forward. I 
ride with 30-year-olds who have never owned a bike without discs. As these 
people age and acquire the earning power to embrace a wider set of values in 
their bicycles, they will likely reject the bikes on the brake issue. I love 
everything about the company, including their collective stubbornness, but I 
would also like to see the business survive and thrive.

Jay

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Orc]

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 1:16:58 PM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:
>
> For forks you gotta go back to Rivendell or go custom 
>

   If you want the Riv look, yes, but there are still plenty of third-party 
forks in the 1" steertubeway out there if getting a replacement is 
necessary and you can't afford the time or money for Riv/custom.

   -david parsons

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Orc]

You've gotta put a reinforcing rib on the back of the caliper-side fork 
blade;  it's fussy, but it doesn't spoil the look of a riv fork NEARLY as 
much as jackknifing one of the fork blades.

-david parsons

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 12:18:23 PM UTC-7, Peter White wrote:
>
> Oh, no! Put a disc brake onto any Rivendell fork I've ever seen and after 
> the first hard braking you'll have a severely bent left fork blade. Fork 
> blades must be quite a bit stiffer to work with disc brakes.
>
> PJW
>
>
> In my experience, the fiddly bit of hydraulic brakes is the tubing; 
>> otherwise they're about as well behaved as a good pair of rim brakes.  And 
>> you don't pay the Spyre or Hy/rd premium for them (if you care at all about 
>> how single-piston brakes need to shove the disk into the other caliper.)
>>
>> (And there ain't anything about a Riv that keeps anyone from brazing disc 
>> tabs onto it, except the initial frame cost.)
>>
>> -david parsons
>>
>>
>>>
> -- 
> Peter White
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[lconley]

My 2 cents:

Three cheers for building weirdo frames around surplus forks. I have a 
Rosco V1 and am patiently awaiting my MMM (Medium Mountain Mixte)

Disc brakes (and V brakes) are ugly and a pain to adjust. I have two bikes 
with discs (hydraulic) not counting the HHH. My Bike Friday has V brakes.  
None stop as well or have better feel than my cantilevered Bombadil.

Threadless headset stems are ugly except for maybe the Cunningham based VO 
Cigne.

I have two Gitanes with French threads, I can still get parts for them, no 
problem. The correct tool for the fixed BB cup, not so much.

Let Rivendell be Rivendell. Does the high / low trail tiff get 
as passionate as the disc debate?



>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[RJM]

Yeah, I don't think scarcity of parts would be on my list for worries with a 
Riv. Build quality, ride quality, and ease of maintenance has always been great 
with Rivendells for me.

But, and this is just for me and my current riding life,  Riv is unfortunately 
not making a bike for my riding style currently. I've gone to another company 
for my steel mountain bike which fits my riding more and checks the boxes more. 
If I started doing more touring or bike camping a Riv would be on the list. The 
riding I'm doing the more modern components and features like disc brakes, 
threadless steer tubes and headsets, and some other stuff are important.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Justin, Oakland]

The reality about parts is this:
- you can fit a modern outboard bearing crank on a Riv. 68mm bb shells aren't 
going away.
- rim brakes aren't going away.
- seatposts? Always there
- saddles are fine
- quills stems are produced constantly by several makers
- tires we have MORE of now than 10 years ago!
- we now have more dynamo hubs too!
- plenty of nice rear hubs, including MUSA
- Microshift has reinvigorated thumb and bar end shifting
- we have so many choices of racks and bags nowadays 

The worries are
- 26" & 650b rims for rim brakes.
- forks? That's a weird concern. I think the number of forks that Riv has had 
to replace is pretty low as illustrated by their selling off of forks and 
building weirdo bikes around them recently
- ??

There's a lot to be said of why Riv should do x, y or z but scarcity of parts 
is silly. 

-J

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Garth]

  Steel frames are not going away.  There are many large and small 
operations that do custom frames and repair. Here in Ohio for example is 
Jack Franklin who makes his own and repairs any steel frame. He also does 
Al and Ti makes of his own. By far he said he thrives on repairs, often 
fixing them for manufacturers too.  He's not a big name you see, we think 
framebuilders are just those with a fancy website or famous name and such. 
Jack for example works out his own farmhouse workshop, no overhead to pay 
for so he doesn't have to charge a ton of $$. 

   Frame building is always an art, and there will always be artists. 

   For the small parts . fear of the future does nothing but ruin 
today. 


On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 4:16:58 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> Bill, part of my concern is also long term viability. As it stands it's 
> getting very hard to replace Rivendell parts, because they are such throw 
> backs. For forks you gotta go back to Rivendell or go custom & even custom 
> might get hard to source at some point. It's doable now, but what about 10 
> or 15 years down the line?
> Can I go somewhere else yeah, but I'd rather not.
> VOs new Polyvalent should be in soon. It'll have low trail, 1 1/8" steerer 
> & disc brakes! I am afraid I might hafta get one of those, but a Rosco 
> Bubbe with those features would get my money faster.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Brewster Fong]

I have to agree that thoughts about parts becoming extinct or hard to find 
is becoming paranoia. Really, quill stems? There's nitto. But don't forget 
that kalloy and sunlite, chinese made stuff, still sell quill stems.  Steel 
forks? Come on, as long as there are steel framebuilders, there will always 
be a way to get a steel fork - custom or not! 

OK, now maybe if you're talking french or rarer Swiss bottom bracket 
threads.  Well, guess what, Phil Wood still offers bb with french and swiss 
threading! Heck, you can get a bb for Raleigh Super Corsa and Chater Lea 
threads too:


   We offer the following bottom bracket cup threadings (all cups are sold 
   as a set and include thread retaining compound): 
   - British (1.370 x 24 tpi, RH/LH thread) in stainless steel and 7075 
   aluminum
   - Italian (36mm x 24 tpi) in stainless steel and 7075 aluminum
   - French (35mm x 1mm) stainless steel
   - Swiss (35mm x 1mm, RH/LH thread) stainless steel
   - Raleigh Super Corsa (1.370 x 26 tpi, RH/LH thread) stainless steel
   - Chater Lea (1.450″ x 26 tpi, RH/LH thread) stainless steel
   - T47 (47 x 1 tpi, RH/LH thread) 7075 aluminum

link:  http://www.philwood.com/products/bbhome.php


Now it may not be cheap, but at least it is still available!  So instead of 
fretting about what may or may not be around in 20 years, I say get out and 
enjoy whatever you got! 

Good Luck!


On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 1:34:12 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> masmojo said "it's getting hard to replace Rivendell parts".  
>
> Let me know what Rivendell part you are having a hard time finding, and 
> I'll try to help you out.  If you are fretting about hypotheticals, I think 
> that's a little bit unnecessary.  Jones makes awesome bikes.  I don't think 
> it would be productive to fret that you might have to go back to Jones if 
> you damage a Jones truss fork.  I don't think it would be productive 
> criticism to inform Jones that they should stop making truss forks.  
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 1:16:58 PM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:
>>
>> Bill, part of my concern is also long term viability. As it stands it's 
>> getting very hard to replace Rivendell parts, because they are such throw 
>> backs. For forks you gotta go back to Rivendell or go custom & even custom 
>> might get hard to source at some point. It's doable now, but what about 10 
>> or 15 years down the line?
>> Can I go somewhere else yeah, but I'd rather not.
>> VOs new Polyvalent should be in soon. It'll have low trail, 1 1/8" 
>> steerer & disc brakes! I am afraid I might hafta get one of those, but a 
>> Rosco Bubbe with those features would get my money faster.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Philip Kim]

also to add, i don't think rivendell has ever made a choice based on saving 
themselves money, moreso saving the customer money. i rather like the quill 
stem even if for aesthetic reasons. never had a problem with them.

OTOH i bought an old raleigh (before they moved production from UK), and 
the steerer tube was bent inside the headtube, so it stuck if you turned 
too far one way. Of course, it was also a few decades old before I rode it 
and who knows what the previous owners did to it before it got to me. I 
still rode it for a few years until it finally seized.

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 3:56:22 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I have no dispute with your opinions, masmojo.  It's totally fine to 
> suggest them.  It's admirable that the suggestions are motivated by 
> goodwill towards Rivendell's business.  My own stable has multiple bikes 
> with 1-1/8" steerers, multiple bikes with hydraulic disc brakes, and 
> multiple bike with threadless.  You are right that all three are very good 
> things.  
>
> 1-1/8" steerers are stronger than 1".  Fact.  Even fatter would be even 
> stronger.  There is something that is strong enough for riding, and 
> Rivendell thinks 1" is strong enough.  Rivendell also thinks a fork SHOULD 
> fail to save the frame.  There are plenty of options out there for folks 
> who think 1" steerers are too weak for normal riding.  
>
> Hydraulic disc brakes are more powerful.  Fact.  Dual hydraulic disc 
> brakes would be even more powerful.  There is some amount of braking power 
> that is powerful enough and Rivendell thinks rim brakes are powerful 
> enough.  There are plenty of options out there for folks who think rim 
> brakes are too weak for normal riding.  
>
> Threadless steerers allow for cheaper manufacturing of bicycles.  Fact. 
>  If a model comes with only one wheelsize, and if you don't have any qualms 
> about using one fork rake for all sizes, then there is money to be saved. 
>  Most Rivendell models have multiple wheelsizes through the size range, and 
> different fork rakes for different sizes.  There are multiple options out 
> there for those who want to know that more attempts at manufacturing 
> efficiency were made in the design of their bike.  
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:48:08 AM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:
>>
>> Bill, it would be a stretch to say I want Rivendell to go more 
>> mainstream. If that were the case I wouldn't even be here. But, embracing 
>> classic design, materials & craftsmanship need not come at the expense of 
>> practicality or functionality.
>> I could totally go either way with respect to disc brakes, but I do think 
>> they might make sense for certain models, like the Hunq.. No need to go 
>> there, but no real need to avoid it either.
>> One thing they've clung to though is 1" steer tubes and I am sorry, but 
>> there's a reason why nobody uses them anymore. They bend much more easily 
>> then the now standard 1 1/8".
>> I am a former bike shop employee from back in the day when 1" was all we 
>> had and we would regularly see bent steerers not from some extreme use or 
>> running into something; just from normal use over many years they 
>> would/could get a but of a bow in them, especially longer ones. But, I've 
>> never seen this with a 1 1/8" steerer.
>> Just about any custom builder these days will build with 1 1/8" it's just 
>> better, plain & simple. Additionally,  for a company like Rivendell thats 
>> perpetually cash strapped; going to a 1 1/8" steerer could save them tons 
>> of money! Instead of needing a different fork for every size of every 
>> model. They could build one fork that could be used on a variety of models 
>> & sizes. And replacing a fork, should it become necessary would be a breeze 
>> and less expensive. No it's not quite so easy to raise and lower your stem, 
>> but honestly once I get my stem height dialed in, I never change it anywayz!
>> As Patrick said these things are not what define a Rivendell to me 
>> anyway. People don't stand around waxing about their bikes quill stem or 
>> caliper brakes; nothing wrong with those, but they are not critical 
>> elements.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Bill Lindsay]

masmojo said "it's getting hard to replace Rivendell parts".  

Let me know what Rivendell part you are having a hard time finding, and 
I'll try to help you out.  If you are fretting about hypotheticals, I think 
that's a little bit unnecessary.  Jones makes awesome bikes.  I don't think 
it would be productive to fret that you might have to go back to Jones if 
you damage a Jones truss fork.  I don't think it would be productive 
criticism to inform Jones that they should stop making truss forks.  

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 1:16:58 PM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:
>
> Bill, part of my concern is also long term viability. As it stands it's 
> getting very hard to replace Rivendell parts, because they are such throw 
> backs. For forks you gotta go back to Rivendell or go custom & even custom 
> might get hard to source at some point. It's doable now, but what about 10 
> or 15 years down the line?
> Can I go somewhere else yeah, but I'd rather not.
> VOs new Polyvalent should be in soon. It'll have low trail, 1 1/8" steerer 
> & disc brakes! I am afraid I might hafta get one of those, but a Rosco 
> Bubbe with those features would get my money faster.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[masmojo]

Correction it looks as though the new VO will have a quill stem after all. 
Strange.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[masmojo]

Bill, part of my concern is also long term viability. As it stands it's getting 
very hard to replace Rivendell parts, because they are such throw backs. For 
forks you gotta go back to Rivendell or go custom & even custom might get hard 
to source at some point. It's doable now, but what about 10 or 15 years down 
the line?
Can I go somewhere else yeah, but I'd rather not.
VOs new Polyvalent should be in soon. It'll have low trail, 1 1/8" steerer & 
disc brakes! I am afraid I might hafta get one of those, but a Rosco Bubbe with 
those features would get my money faster.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Bill Lindsay]

I have no dispute with your opinions, masmojo.  It's totally fine to 
suggest them.  It's admirable that the suggestions are motivated by 
goodwill towards Rivendell's business.  My own stable has multiple bikes 
with 1-1/8" steerers, multiple bikes with hydraulic disc brakes, and 
multiple bike with threadless.  You are right that all three are very good 
things.  

1-1/8" steerers are stronger than 1".  Fact.  Even fatter would be even 
stronger.  There is something that is strong enough for riding, and 
Rivendell thinks 1" is strong enough.  Rivendell also thinks a fork SHOULD 
fail to save the frame.  There are plenty of options out there for folks 
who think 1" steerers are too weak for normal riding.  

Hydraulic disc brakes are more powerful.  Fact.  Dual hydraulic disc brakes 
would be even more powerful.  There is some amount of braking power that is 
powerful enough and Rivendell thinks rim brakes are powerful enough.  There 
are plenty of options out there for folks who think rim brakes are too weak 
for normal riding.  

Threadless steerers allow for cheaper manufacturing of bicycles.  Fact.  If 
a model comes with only one wheelsize, and if you don't have any qualms 
about using one fork rake for all sizes, then there is money to be saved. 
 Most Rivendell models have multiple wheelsizes through the size range, and 
different fork rakes for different sizes.  There are multiple options out 
there for those who want to know that more attempts at manufacturing 
efficiency were made in the design of their bike.  

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:48:08 AM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:
>
> Bill, it would be a stretch to say I want Rivendell to go more mainstream. 
> If that were the case I wouldn't even be here. But, embracing classic 
> design, materials & craftsmanship need not come at the expense of 
> practicality or functionality.
> I could totally go either way with respect to disc brakes, but I do think 
> they might make sense for certain models, like the Hunq.. No need to go 
> there, but no real need to avoid it either.
> One thing they've clung to though is 1" steer tubes and I am sorry, but 
> there's a reason why nobody uses them anymore. They bend much more easily 
> then the now standard 1 1/8".
> I am a former bike shop employee from back in the day when 1" was all we 
> had and we would regularly see bent steerers not from some extreme use or 
> running into something; just from normal use over many years they 
> would/could get a but of a bow in them, especially longer ones. But, I've 
> never seen this with a 1 1/8" steerer.
> Just about any custom builder these days will build with 1 1/8" it's just 
> better, plain & simple. Additionally,  for a company like Rivendell thats 
> perpetually cash strapped; going to a 1 1/8" steerer could save them tons 
> of money! Instead of needing a different fork for every size of every 
> model. They could build one fork that could be used on a variety of models 
> & sizes. And replacing a fork, should it become necessary would be a breeze 
> and less expensive. No it's not quite so easy to raise and lower your stem, 
> but honestly once I get my stem height dialed in, I never change it anywayz!
> As Patrick said these things are not what define a Rivendell to me anyway. 
> People don't stand around waxing about their bikes quill stem or caliper 
> brakes; nothing wrong with those, but they are not critical elements.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Clayton.sf]

Yes, those 2 are the only one I have experience with.

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 12:12:53 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Good to know; the question is becoming clearer. Your experience is with XT 
> and SLX hydros which presumable have the sort of greater leverage Jeremy 
> spoke of.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Clayton.sf  > wrote:
>
>> Patrick, 
>>
>> To answer your last question. I have never used BB7, but my XT and SLX 
>> hydros have kept the pads away suffiently after setup. 
>>
>> - with QR axles setup involves initial centering in the stand with a 
>> follow centering after a few miles on the trail.
>> - with Thru axles setup involves initial centering in the stand with no 
>> follow centering (so far at least).
>>
>> Best,
>> Clayton Scott
>> SF, CA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:38:19 AM UTC-7, Clayton.sf wrote:
>>>
>>> One more thing. Thru axles so far have eliminated the second 
>>> re-centering that used to be required after the first few miles of riding 
>>> after wheel re-installment. 
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: I am super sensitive to things. Other people may not notice 
>>> or care to this degree.
>>>
>>> Clayton "Princess and the pea" Scott
>>> SF, CA
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:31:01 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 For me, the bottom line is having the pads sufficiently far from the 
 disc to prevent that frequent rubbing that comes from very small changes 
 in 
 the rotors' trueness, or from dirt or water on the pads; that's part 1. 
 Part 2 is, to get this distance without compromising braking power 
 *and* without compromising lever feel, which practically speaking 
 means that the levers don't bottom out as you reach peak braking power.

 With my former MTB BB7s and Tektro V brake levers, I could get the pads 
 far enough from the rim, as above, but then the levers would almost bottom 
 out when squeezing hard. 

 Doubtless I could simply ignore how the Tektro levers felt, but I 
 didn't want to ignore it.

 By "fiddling" I mean finding it hard to achieve this balance, and 
 finding it only by involved adjustment and re-adjustment. Once again, my 
 disc benchmark is my current BB7 Roads and Shimano road levers: pads far 
 enough out, levers feel and act surprisingly like those on my road bikes 
 with good quality single pivots (the discs stop at least as well, if not 
 better).

 So: the question for me is, will hydraulics keep the pads from rubbing 
 as well as my current BB7s do, yet have good lever travel and feel, and 
 brake at least as well? I assume that the last criterion is an easy "yes", 
 but what about the other 2? From the earlier discussion, I understood that 
 hydraulics will *not* as easily accomplish 1 and 2 as my BB7s.

 On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Bill Lindsay  
 wrote:

> "If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly"
>
> I guess I need a definition of the term 'fiddly'.  When I hear the 
> word 'fiddly', my brain hears "I'm not a mechanic, and I don't know how 
> things work, and no matter how much random wrenching I throw at this 
> subsystem of the bike, it never works well.  Don't ask me what I tried 
> because I don't remember"
>
> I think you, Patrick Moore, mean something other than that when you 
> say fiddly, but I don't know what that definition is.  The point with 
> hydraulics is that you don't adjust them.  They adjust themselves.  If 
> 'to 
> fiddle' is a synonym of 'to adjust' or 'to tune', then you don't do any 
> of 
> that.  You basically set them up.  
>
> Setting up a hydraulic disk brake involves resetting the brake pads 
> (spreading them wide open with a suitable plastic brake pry-bar).  Then 
> you 
> put the wheel in, and you pump the brake lever.  The pistons work their 
> way 
> in until the brakepads find the rotor.  Only when they hit the rotor to 
> the 
> return springs make the pistons open a tiny bit.  That's it.  You are 
> done.  If you think the caliper is off center in some way, reposition it 
> and start over.  There is no adjustment, no fiddling.  So, I think you 
> would say they are less fiddly because you don't have to fiddle with 
> them, 
> but you better like them, because you can't fiddle with them, at least 
> not 
> in the way I think you would consider important (pad clearance from the 
> rotor).
>
> Bill
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even 
>> more fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical 
>> discs, 
>> then I have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really 
>> steep technical stuff, 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Peter White]

Oh, no! Put a disc brake onto any Rivendell fork I've ever seen and after
the first hard braking you'll have a severely bent left fork blade. Fork
blades must be quite a bit stiffer to work with disc brakes.

PJW


In my experience, the fiddly bit of hydraulic brakes is the tubing;
> otherwise they're about as well behaved as a good pair of rim brakes.  And
> you don't pay the Spyre or Hy/rd premium for them (if you care at all about
> how single-piston brakes need to shove the disk into the other caliper.)
>
> (And there ain't anything about a Riv that keeps anyone from brazing disc
> tabs onto it, except the initial frame cost.)
>
> -david parsons
>
>
>>
-- 
Peter White

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:53:11 AM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>
>
>Then again, I hope Riv never ever makes a disc brake frame.  As 
> been said, there are countless people who will make you a  frame just the 
> way you like it.  
>
>   Also, try demanding a custom frame be designed in a very specific 
> way from any given builder , and questing that builder when they don't want 
> to do it that specific way for *whatever their reasons *, and see how 
> that goes. After all, it's *their business* *and craft*, not yours.   You 
> are free to shop somewhere else. 
>

Agree. I had this exact situation happen to me. Let's just say I tried to 
get a frame built by an established builder with one of the best 
reputation. However, what I wanted was to match modern components - i.e., 
e-shifting with his frame.  Basically, I was asking for a track bike with 
brakes and a RD hanger. He wouldn't do it. We went back and forth and he 
kept talking about building something similar for a guy in the 90s using 
Mavic Zap shifters. When that died, he ended up having to redo the frame to 
add shifter bosses and he swore never to do another one.  

Bottom line - you want something specific, find a builder that will do it! 

>
>Sure, you can have a frame made just like Riv, made to similar 
> specs and ride qualities, but it will never be a Rivendell brand product. 
> Is this so important , a *name* ?   
>
> This reminds me all branding and how we get attached to brand names. 
>
>Yeah , I hope "classic bike" style remains , no disc brakes for these . 
>

Then again, I haven't been following Riv for a while and was kind of 
disappointed that they now offer tig-welded frames?!  That to me is 
disappointing as I love their lugs and there's plenty of tigged frames out 
there. But hey, it's a business and I understand the need.

Good Luck!

>   
>  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

Good to know; the question is becoming clearer. Your experience is with XT
and SLX hydros which presumable have the sort of greater leverage Jeremy
spoke of.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Clayton.sf  wrote:

> Patrick,
>
> To answer your last question. I have never used BB7, but my XT and SLX
> hydros have kept the pads away suffiently after setup.
>
> - with QR axles setup involves initial centering in the stand with a
> follow centering after a few miles on the trail.
> - with Thru axles setup involves initial centering in the stand with no
> follow centering (so far at least).
>
> Best,
> Clayton Scott
> SF, CA
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:38:19 AM UTC-7, Clayton.sf wrote:
>>
>> One more thing. Thru axles so far have eliminated the second re-centering
>> that used to be required after the first few miles of riding after wheel
>> re-installment.
>>
>> Disclaimer: I am super sensitive to things. Other people may not notice
>> or care to this degree.
>>
>> Clayton "Princess and the pea" Scott
>> SF, CA
>>
>>
>> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:31:01 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> For me, the bottom line is having the pads sufficiently far from the
>>> disc to prevent that frequent rubbing that comes from very small changes in
>>> the rotors' trueness, or from dirt or water on the pads; that's part 1.
>>> Part 2 is, to get this distance without compromising braking power *and* 
>>> without
>>> compromising lever feel, which practically speaking means that the levers
>>> don't bottom out as you reach peak braking power.
>>>
>>> With my former MTB BB7s and Tektro V brake levers, I could get the pads
>>> far enough from the rim, as above, but then the levers would almost bottom
>>> out when squeezing hard.
>>>
>>> Doubtless I could simply ignore how the Tektro levers felt, but I didn't
>>> want to ignore it.
>>>
>>> By "fiddling" I mean finding it hard to achieve this balance, and
>>> finding it only by involved adjustment and re-adjustment. Once again, my
>>> disc benchmark is my current BB7 Roads and Shimano road levers: pads far
>>> enough out, levers feel and act surprisingly like those on my road bikes
>>> with good quality single pivots (the discs stop at least as well, if not
>>> better).
>>>
>>> So: the question for me is, will hydraulics keep the pads from rubbing
>>> as well as my current BB7s do, yet have good lever travel and feel, and
>>> brake at least as well? I assume that the last criterion is an easy "yes",
>>> but what about the other 2? From the earlier discussion, I understood that
>>> hydraulics will *not* as easily accomplish 1 and 2 as my BB7s.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Bill Lindsay 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 "If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly"

 I guess I need a definition of the term 'fiddly'.  When I hear the word
 'fiddly', my brain hears "I'm not a mechanic, and I don't know how things
 work, and no matter how much random wrenching I throw at this subsystem of
 the bike, it never works well.  Don't ask me what I tried because I don't
 remember"

 I think you, Patrick Moore, mean something other than that when you say
 fiddly, but I don't know what that definition is.  The point with
 hydraulics is that you don't adjust them.  They adjust themselves.  If 'to
 fiddle' is a synonym of 'to adjust' or 'to tune', then you don't do any of
 that.  You basically set them up.

 Setting up a hydraulic disk brake involves resetting the brake pads
 (spreading them wide open with a suitable plastic brake pry-bar).  Then you
 put the wheel in, and you pump the brake lever.  The pistons work their way
 in until the brakepads find the rotor.  Only when they hit the rotor to the
 return springs make the pistons open a tiny bit.  That's it.  You are
 done.  If you think the caliper is off center in some way, reposition it
 and start over.  There is no adjustment, no fiddling.  So, I think you
 would say they are less fiddly because you don't have to fiddle with them,
 but you better like them, because you can't fiddle with them, at least not
 in the way I think you would consider important (pad clearance from the
 rotor).

 Bill

 On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more
> fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then 
> I
> have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep
> technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake,
> disc or rim, is easily adequate.
>
> So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated
> mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single
> action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so
> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

But perhaps not as Rivendell would make it -- which is the point here.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:53 PM, Garth  wrote:

>
>Then again, I hope Riv never ever makes a disc brake frame.  As
> been said, there are countless people who will make you a  frame just the
> way you like it.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Garth]

   Then again, I hope Riv never ever makes a disc brake frame.  As been 
said, there are countless people who will make you a  frame just the way 
you like it.  

  Also, try demanding a custom frame be designed in a very specific way 
from any given builder , and questing that builder when they don't want to 
do it that specific way for *whatever their reasons *, and see how that 
goes. After all, it's *their business* *and craft*, not yours.   You are 
free to shop somewhere else. 

   Sure, you can have a frame made just like Riv, made to similar specs 
and ride qualities, but it will never be a Rivendell brand product. Is this 
so important , a *name* ?   

This reminds me all branding and how we get attached to brand names. 

   Yeah , I hope "classic bike" style remains , no disc brakes for these . 
  
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Clayton.sf]

Patrick, 

To answer your last question. I have never used BB7, but my XT and SLX 
hydros have kept the pads away suffiently after setup. 

- with QR axles setup involves initial centering in the stand with a follow 
centering after a few miles on the trail.
- with Thru axles setup involves initial centering in the stand with no 
follow centering (so far at least).

Best,
Clayton Scott
SF, CA




On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:38:19 AM UTC-7, Clayton.sf wrote:
>
> One more thing. Thru axles so far have eliminated the second re-centering 
> that used to be required after the first few miles of riding after wheel 
> re-installment. 
>
> Disclaimer: I am super sensitive to things. Other people may not notice or 
> care to this degree.
>
> Clayton "Princess and the pea" Scott
> SF, CA
>
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:31:01 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> For me, the bottom line is having the pads sufficiently far from the disc 
>> to prevent that frequent rubbing that comes from very small changes in the 
>> rotors' trueness, or from dirt or water on the pads; that's part 1. Part 2 
>> is, to get this distance without compromising braking power *and* without 
>> compromising lever feel, which practically speaking means that the levers 
>> don't bottom out as you reach peak braking power.
>>
>> With my former MTB BB7s and Tektro V brake levers, I could get the pads 
>> far enough from the rim, as above, but then the levers would almost bottom 
>> out when squeezing hard. 
>>
>> Doubtless I could simply ignore how the Tektro levers felt, but I didn't 
>> want to ignore it.
>>
>> By "fiddling" I mean finding it hard to achieve this balance, and finding 
>> it only by involved adjustment and re-adjustment. Once again, my disc 
>> benchmark is my current BB7 Roads and Shimano road levers: pads far enough 
>> out, levers feel and act surprisingly like those on my road bikes with good 
>> quality single pivots (the discs stop at least as well, if not better).
>>
>> So: the question for me is, will hydraulics keep the pads from rubbing as 
>> well as my current BB7s do, yet have good lever travel and feel, and brake 
>> at least as well? I assume that the last criterion is an easy "yes", but 
>> what about the other 2? From the earlier discussion, I understood that 
>> hydraulics will *not* as easily accomplish 1 and 2 as my BB7s.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>
>>> "If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly"
>>>
>>> I guess I need a definition of the term 'fiddly'.  When I hear the word 
>>> 'fiddly', my brain hears "I'm not a mechanic, and I don't know how things 
>>> work, and no matter how much random wrenching I throw at this subsystem of 
>>> the bike, it never works well.  Don't ask me what I tried because I don't 
>>> remember"
>>>
>>> I think you, Patrick Moore, mean something other than that when you say 
>>> fiddly, but I don't know what that definition is.  The point with 
>>> hydraulics is that you don't adjust them.  They adjust themselves.  If 'to 
>>> fiddle' is a synonym of 'to adjust' or 'to tune', then you don't do any of 
>>> that.  You basically set them up.  
>>>
>>> Setting up a hydraulic disk brake involves resetting the brake pads 
>>> (spreading them wide open with a suitable plastic brake pry-bar).  Then you 
>>> put the wheel in, and you pump the brake lever.  The pistons work their way 
>>> in until the brakepads find the rotor.  Only when they hit the rotor to the 
>>> return springs make the pistons open a tiny bit.  That's it.  You are 
>>> done.  If you think the caliper is off center in some way, reposition it 
>>> and start over.  There is no adjustment, no fiddling.  So, I think you 
>>> would say they are less fiddly because you don't have to fiddle with them, 
>>> but you better like them, because you can't fiddle with them, at least not 
>>> in the way I think you would consider important (pad clearance from the 
>>> rotor).
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more 
 fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then 
 I 
 have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep 
 technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake, 
 disc or rim, is easily adequate.

 So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated 
 mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single 
 action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so 
 seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia 
 Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these 
 are 
 the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or 
 whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[masmojo]

Bill, it would be a stretch to say I want Rivendell to go more mainstream. If 
that were the case I wouldn't even be here. But, embracing classic design, 
materials & craftsmanship need not come at the expense of practicality or 
functionality.
I could totally go either way with respect to disc brakes, but I do think they 
might make sense for certain models, like the Hunq.. No need to go there, but 
no real need to avoid it either.
One thing they've clung to though is 1" steer tubes and I am sorry, but there's 
a reason why nobody uses them anymore. They bend much more easily then the now 
standard 1 1/8".
I am a former bike shop employee from back in the day when 1" was all we had 
and we would regularly see bent steerers not from some extreme use or running 
into something; just from normal use over many years they would/could get a but 
of a bow in them, especially longer ones. But, I've never seen this with a 1 
1/8" steerer.
Just about any custom builder these days will build with 1 1/8" it's just 
better, plain & simple. Additionally,  for a company like Rivendell thats 
perpetually cash strapped; going to a 1 1/8" steerer could save them tons of 
money! Instead of needing a different fork for every size of every model. They 
could build one fork that could be used on a variety of models & sizes. And 
replacing a fork, should it become necessary would be a breeze and less 
expensive. No it's not quite so easy to raise and lower your stem, but honestly 
once I get my stem height dialed in, I never change it anywayz!
As Patrick said these things are not what define a Rivendell to me anyway. 
People don't stand around waxing about their bikes quill stem or caliper 
brakes; nothing wrong with those, but they are not critical elements.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Clayton.sf]

One more thing. Thru axles so far have eliminated the second re-centering 
that used to be required after the first few miles of riding after wheel 
re-installment. 

Disclaimer: I am super sensitive to things. Other people may not notice or 
care to this degree.

Clayton "Princess and the pea" Scott
SF, CA


On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:31:01 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> For me, the bottom line is having the pads sufficiently far from the disc 
> to prevent that frequent rubbing that comes from very small changes in the 
> rotors' trueness, or from dirt or water on the pads; that's part 1. Part 2 
> is, to get this distance without compromising braking power *and* without 
> compromising lever feel, which practically speaking means that the levers 
> don't bottom out as you reach peak braking power.
>
> With my former MTB BB7s and Tektro V brake levers, I could get the pads 
> far enough from the rim, as above, but then the levers would almost bottom 
> out when squeezing hard. 
>
> Doubtless I could simply ignore how the Tektro levers felt, but I didn't 
> want to ignore it.
>
> By "fiddling" I mean finding it hard to achieve this balance, and finding 
> it only by involved adjustment and re-adjustment. Once again, my disc 
> benchmark is my current BB7 Roads and Shimano road levers: pads far enough 
> out, levers feel and act surprisingly like those on my road bikes with good 
> quality single pivots (the discs stop at least as well, if not better).
>
> So: the question for me is, will hydraulics keep the pads from rubbing as 
> well as my current BB7s do, yet have good lever travel and feel, and brake 
> at least as well? I assume that the last criterion is an easy "yes", but 
> what about the other 2? From the earlier discussion, I understood that 
> hydraulics will *not* as easily accomplish 1 and 2 as my BB7s.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote:
>
>> "If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly"
>>
>> I guess I need a definition of the term 'fiddly'.  When I hear the word 
>> 'fiddly', my brain hears "I'm not a mechanic, and I don't know how things 
>> work, and no matter how much random wrenching I throw at this subsystem of 
>> the bike, it never works well.  Don't ask me what I tried because I don't 
>> remember"
>>
>> I think you, Patrick Moore, mean something other than that when you say 
>> fiddly, but I don't know what that definition is.  The point with 
>> hydraulics is that you don't adjust them.  They adjust themselves.  If 'to 
>> fiddle' is a synonym of 'to adjust' or 'to tune', then you don't do any of 
>> that.  You basically set them up.  
>>
>> Setting up a hydraulic disk brake involves resetting the brake pads 
>> (spreading them wide open with a suitable plastic brake pry-bar).  Then you 
>> put the wheel in, and you pump the brake lever.  The pistons work their way 
>> in until the brakepads find the rotor.  Only when they hit the rotor to the 
>> return springs make the pistons open a tiny bit.  That's it.  You are 
>> done.  If you think the caliper is off center in some way, reposition it 
>> and start over.  There is no adjustment, no fiddling.  So, I think you 
>> would say they are less fiddly because you don't have to fiddle with them, 
>> but you better like them, because you can't fiddle with them, at least not 
>> in the way I think you would consider important (pad clearance from the 
>> rotor).
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more 
>>> fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then I 
>>> have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep 
>>> technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake, 
>>> disc or rim, is easily adequate.
>>>
>>> So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated 
>>> mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single 
>>> action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so 
>>> seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia 
>>> Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these are 
>>> the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or 
>>> whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better power, then 
>>> they might be worth buying at some point. Me, I haven't found adjustment 
>>> for pad wear a matter needing attention, with the BB7s I've used.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Bill Lindsay  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Thanks Jeremy

 This is the reason that I suspect the OP Patrick Moore would dislike 
 hydraulic brakes.  Or, more accurately, why his reaction to hydraulic 
 brake 
 X would be binary.  Either it will self-adjust to perfect, and he's love 
 them, or they would self-adjust to imperfect, and 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

For me, the bottom line is having the pads sufficiently far from the disc
to prevent that frequent rubbing that comes from very small changes in the
rotors' trueness, or from dirt or water on the pads; that's part 1. Part 2
is, to get this distance without compromising braking power *and* without
compromising lever feel, which practically speaking means that the levers
don't bottom out as you reach peak braking power.

With my former MTB BB7s and Tektro V brake levers, I could get the pads far
enough from the rim, as above, but then the levers would almost bottom out
when squeezing hard.

Doubtless I could simply ignore how the Tektro levers felt, but I didn't
want to ignore it.

By "fiddling" I mean finding it hard to achieve this balance, and finding
it only by involved adjustment and re-adjustment. Once again, my disc
benchmark is my current BB7 Roads and Shimano road levers: pads far enough
out, levers feel and act surprisingly like those on my road bikes with good
quality single pivots (the discs stop at least as well, if not better).

So: the question for me is, will hydraulics keep the pads from rubbing as
well as my current BB7s do, yet have good lever travel and feel, and brake
at least as well? I assume that the last criterion is an easy "yes", but
what about the other 2? From the earlier discussion, I understood that
hydraulics will *not* as easily accomplish 1 and 2 as my BB7s.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> "If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly"
>
> I guess I need a definition of the term 'fiddly'.  When I hear the word
> 'fiddly', my brain hears "I'm not a mechanic, and I don't know how things
> work, and no matter how much random wrenching I throw at this subsystem of
> the bike, it never works well.  Don't ask me what I tried because I don't
> remember"
>
> I think you, Patrick Moore, mean something other than that when you say
> fiddly, but I don't know what that definition is.  The point with
> hydraulics is that you don't adjust them.  They adjust themselves.  If 'to
> fiddle' is a synonym of 'to adjust' or 'to tune', then you don't do any of
> that.  You basically set them up.
>
> Setting up a hydraulic disk brake involves resetting the brake pads
> (spreading them wide open with a suitable plastic brake pry-bar).  Then you
> put the wheel in, and you pump the brake lever.  The pistons work their way
> in until the brakepads find the rotor.  Only when they hit the rotor to the
> return springs make the pistons open a tiny bit.  That's it.  You are
> done.  If you think the caliper is off center in some way, reposition it
> and start over.  There is no adjustment, no fiddling.  So, I think you
> would say they are less fiddly because you don't have to fiddle with them,
> but you better like them, because you can't fiddle with them, at least not
> in the way I think you would consider important (pad clearance from the
> rotor).
>
> Bill
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more
>> fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then I
>> have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep
>> technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake,
>> disc or rim, is easily adequate.
>>
>> So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated
>> mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single
>> action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so
>> seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia
>> Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these are
>> the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or
>> whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better power, then
>> they might be worth buying at some point. Me, I haven't found adjustment
>> for pad wear a matter needing attention, with the BB7s I've used.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Jeremy
>>>
>>> This is the reason that I suspect the OP Patrick Moore would dislike
>>> hydraulic brakes.  Or, more accurately, why his reaction to hydraulic brake
>>> X would be binary.  Either it will self-adjust to perfect, and he's love
>>> them, or they would self-adjust to imperfect, and he'd hate the inability
>>> to do much about it.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Till wrote:

 Hey Bill--no that's right, hydraulic calipers don't really give you any
 adjustment other than alignment.  I was noting that some hydraulics seem to
 run with their pads a bit further from the rotor than others, and that as
 with mechanical rim brakes, this seems to be related to the leverage
 characteristics of the braking system.


>>> --
>>> You received this message 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Clayton.sf]

"Fiddly" to me means: something needs a higher amount of repeated 
fiddling-with to achieve desired results than is reasonable to me.

Example: Two wheelsets with the same rotor and hub that still require me to 
re-center the hydro disc caliper after each swap and then one more time 
after the first hour of riding after the wheel beds in the dropouts.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA





On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:16:03 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> "If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly"
>
> I guess I need a definition of the term 'fiddly'.  When I hear the word 
> 'fiddly', my brain hears "I'm not a mechanic, and I don't know how things 
> work, and no matter how much random wrenching I throw at this subsystem of 
> the bike, it never works well.  Don't ask me what I tried because I don't 
> remember"
>
> I think you, Patrick Moore, mean something other than that when you say 
> fiddly, but I don't know what that definition is.  The point with 
> hydraulics is that you don't adjust them.  They adjust themselves.  If 'to 
> fiddle' is a synonym of 'to adjust' or 'to tune', then you don't do any of 
> that.  You basically set them up.  
>
> Setting up a hydraulic disk brake involves resetting the brake pads 
> (spreading them wide open with a suitable plastic brake pry-bar).  Then you 
> put the wheel in, and you pump the brake lever.  The pistons work their way 
> in until the brakepads find the rotor.  Only when they hit the rotor to the 
> return springs make the pistons open a tiny bit.  That's it.  You are done. 
>  If you think the caliper is off center in some way, reposition it and 
> start over.  There is no adjustment, no fiddling.  So, I think you would 
> say they are less fiddly because you don't have to fiddle with them, but 
> you better like them, because you can't fiddle with them, at least not in 
> the way I think you would consider important (pad clearance from the rotor).
>
> Bill
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more 
>> fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then I 
>> have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep 
>> technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake, 
>> disc or rim, is easily adequate.
>>
>> So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated 
>> mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single 
>> action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so 
>> seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia 
>> Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these are 
>> the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or 
>> whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better power, then 
>> they might be worth buying at some point. Me, I haven't found adjustment 
>> for pad wear a matter needing attention, with the BB7s I've used.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Jeremy
>>>
>>> This is the reason that I suspect the OP Patrick Moore would dislike 
>>> hydraulic brakes.  Or, more accurately, why his reaction to hydraulic brake 
>>> X would be binary.  Either it will self-adjust to perfect, and he's love 
>>> them, or they would self-adjust to imperfect, and he'd hate the inability 
>>> to do much about it.  
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Till wrote:

 Hey Bill--no that's right, hydraulic calipers don't really give you any 
 adjustment other than alignment.  I was noting that some hydraulics seem 
 to 
 run with their pads a bit further from the rotor than others, and that as 
 with mechanical rim brakes, this seems to be related to the leverage 
 characteristics of the braking system.  


>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> *30% Supply and Demand discount, listmembers only, on all resume, 
>> LinkedIn, and writing services, until Demand equals Supply! And there's 
>> more! 10% kickback for any referral resulting in fully paid, list-price 
>> contract. And still more!  I am offering services in trade for a road bike, 
>> or frame and parts, that are period compatible with my AM hub, circa 1937 
>> to 1961. See my website for what I do and what I charge; email for details.*
>>
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Bill Lindsay]

"If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly"

I guess I need a definition of the term 'fiddly'.  When I hear the word 
'fiddly', my brain hears "I'm not a mechanic, and I don't know how things 
work, and no matter how much random wrenching I throw at this subsystem of 
the bike, it never works well.  Don't ask me what I tried because I don't 
remember"

I think you, Patrick Moore, mean something other than that when you say 
fiddly, but I don't know what that definition is.  The point with 
hydraulics is that you don't adjust them.  They adjust themselves.  If 'to 
fiddle' is a synonym of 'to adjust' or 'to tune', then you don't do any of 
that.  You basically set them up.  

Setting up a hydraulic disk brake involves resetting the brake pads 
(spreading them wide open with a suitable plastic brake pry-bar).  Then you 
put the wheel in, and you pump the brake lever.  The pistons work their way 
in until the brakepads find the rotor.  Only when they hit the rotor to the 
return springs make the pistons open a tiny bit.  That's it.  You are done. 
 If you think the caliper is off center in some way, reposition it and 
start over.  There is no adjustment, no fiddling.  So, I think you would 
say they are less fiddly because you don't have to fiddle with them, but 
you better like them, because you can't fiddle with them, at least not in 
the way I think you would consider important (pad clearance from the rotor).

Bill

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more 
> fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then I 
> have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep 
> technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake, 
> disc or rim, is easily adequate.
>
> So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated 
> mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single 
> action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so 
> seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia 
> Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these are 
> the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or 
> whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better power, then 
> they might be worth buying at some point. Me, I haven't found adjustment 
> for pad wear a matter needing attention, with the BB7s I've used.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote:
>
>> Thanks Jeremy
>>
>> This is the reason that I suspect the OP Patrick Moore would dislike 
>> hydraulic brakes.  Or, more accurately, why his reaction to hydraulic brake 
>> X would be binary.  Either it will self-adjust to perfect, and he's love 
>> them, or they would self-adjust to imperfect, and he'd hate the inability 
>> to do much about it.  
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Till wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Bill--no that's right, hydraulic calipers don't really give you any 
>>> adjustment other than alignment.  I was noting that some hydraulics seem to 
>>> run with their pads a bit further from the rotor than others, and that as 
>>> with mechanical rim brakes, this seems to be related to the leverage 
>>> characteristics of the braking system.  
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> *30% Supply and Demand discount, listmembers only, on all resume, 
> LinkedIn, and writing services, until Demand equals Supply! And there's 
> more! 10% kickback for any referral resulting in fully paid, list-price 
> contract. And still more!  I am offering services in trade for a road bike, 
> or frame and parts, that are period compatible with my AM hub, circa 1937 
> to 1961. See my website for what I do and what I charge; email for details.*
>
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
>
>
>
>

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To post 

Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Orc]

In my experience, the fiddly bit of hydraulic brakes is the tubing; 
otherwise they're about as well behaved as a good pair of rim brakes.  And 
you don't pay the Spyre or Hy/rd premium for them (if you care at all about 
how single-piston brakes need to shove the disk into the other caliper.)

(And there ain't anything about a Riv that keeps anyone from brazing disc 
tabs onto it, except the initial frame cost.)

-david parsons



On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more 
> fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then I 
> have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep 
> technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake, 
> disc or rim, is easily adequate.
>
> So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated 
> mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single 
> action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so 
> seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia 
> Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these are 
> the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or 
> whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better power, then 
> they might be worth buying at some point. Me, I haven't found adjustment 
> for pad wear a matter needing attention, with the BB7s I've used.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote:
>
>> Thanks Jeremy
>>
>> This is the reason that I suspect the OP Patrick Moore would dislike 
>> hydraulic brakes.  Or, more accurately, why his reaction to hydraulic brake 
>> X would be binary.  Either it will self-adjust to perfect, and he's love 
>> them, or they would self-adjust to imperfect, and he'd hate the inability 
>> to do much about it.  
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Till wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Bill--no that's right, hydraulic calipers don't really give you any 
>>> adjustment other than alignment.  I was noting that some hydraulics seem to 
>>> run with their pads a bit further from the rotor than others, and that as 
>>> with mechanical rim brakes, this seems to be related to the leverage 
>>> characteristics of the braking system.  
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> *30% Supply and Demand discount, listmembers only, on all resume, 
> LinkedIn, and writing services, until Demand equals Supply! And there's 
> more! 10% kickback for any referral resulting in fully paid, list-price 
> contract. And still more!  I am offering services in trade for a road bike, 
> or frame and parts, that are period compatible with my AM hub, circa 1937 
> to 1961. See my website for what I do and what I charge; email for details.*
>
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more
fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then I
have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep
technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake,
disc or rim, is easily adequate.

So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated
mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single
action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so
seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia
Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these are
the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or
whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better power, then
they might be worth buying at some point. Me, I haven't found adjustment
for pad wear a matter needing attention, with the BB7s I've used.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Thanks Jeremy
>
> This is the reason that I suspect the OP Patrick Moore would dislike
> hydraulic brakes.  Or, more accurately, why his reaction to hydraulic brake
> X would be binary.  Either it will self-adjust to perfect, and he's love
> them, or they would self-adjust to imperfect, and he'd hate the inability
> to do much about it.
>
> Bill
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Till wrote:
>>
>> Hey Bill--no that's right, hydraulic calipers don't really give you any
>> adjustment other than alignment.  I was noting that some hydraulics seem to
>> run with their pads a bit further from the rotor than others, and that as
>> with mechanical rim brakes, this seems to be related to the leverage
>> characteristics of the braking system.
>>
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
*30% Supply and Demand discount, listmembers only, on all resume, LinkedIn,
and writing services, until Demand equals Supply! And there's more! 10%
kickback for any referral resulting in fully paid, list-price contract. And
still more!  I am offering services in trade for a road bike, or frame and
parts, that are period compatible with my AM hub, circa 1937 to 1961. See
my website for what I do and what I charge; email for details.*

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
**
**

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Re: [RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

What defines a Rivendell for me are:

1. Ride characteristics and quality.
2. Quality of build -- strength, but also appearance.
3. Aesthetics, or more simply, the way they look; but this is more general
than lugs: even a tigg'd Rivendell would have a sober but not dull
appearance with nice graphics and, above all, a general sense of proportion
among the parts.

Anything else IMO is secondary, even if desirable.

I can see some Rivendells quite happily accepting disc brakes and keeping
the qualities above. I don't think a Roadeo with discs would be
Rivendellian, but a Hunq with discs would be, or even a Sam.



On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:22 AM, masmojo  wrote:

> ... would a Rivendell still be a Rivendell if it had disc brakes, 1 1/8
> steerer, and clamp on Stem? YES! Yes it would.

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[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Bill Lindsay]

What resistance are you trying to break down?  Are you trying to break down 
resistance at Rivendell Bicycle Works, and trying to convince them to make 
more mainstream bicycles?  Or are you trying to break down resistance of 
readers of the RBW owners Bunch google Group?

Rivendell offers bikes that you can't get anywhere else.  If you want a 
disc brake bike mountain bike, there are literally a hundred different 
vendors to sell one to you.  Rivendell would say "godspeed" to you as you 
go enjoy that bike.  

Asking Rivendell to make vanilla mainstream bikes strikes me like asking a 
sushi restaurant to sell you pizza.  If you want pizza, why not just go buy 
pizza from a restaurant that likes making pizza and is good at it? 
 
Is it that you are looking out for Rivendell's best interests?  The 
mainstream is over here, and if Rivendell made more mainstream bikes, they 
would be more profitable?  You can buy a Bombadil frameset today for $3000. 
 If Grant redid the Bombadil with new dropouts and new 1-1/8" lugs and with 
new disc brake attach points, and it now cost $3800, and Grant told you it 
would be available in two years, would you buy one?  

My approach is to let Rivendell make what they are good at.  Offering 
constructive suggestions is great, but I trust Rivendell knows more about 
their business than I do.  I trust them to offer products they like.  If I 
like the products they offer, I'll continue putting money in their 
register.  When my broad cycling interests take me to products Riv doesn't 
offer, I buy those products from businesses that like selling them.  

Bill who-owns-two-disc-brake-Niners Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:22:13 AM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:
>
> I came to disc brakes by accident; I have always favored Cantis, but I 
> really wanted a Rawland Drakkar & they were disc only!
> Thus far I've only used mechanicals, Hayes & BB7's. Initially, I thought 
> they were frustratingly fiddly, but I've gotten to the point were I can 
> actually adjust them easier then any other brake.
> I get the argument that they don't offer superior braking; in theory it's 
> true, but in real world use, from experience, I would say they are better!
> This all leads up to the million dollar question: would a Rivendell still 
> be a Rivendell if it had disc brakes, 1 1/8 steerer, and clamp on Stem? 
> YES! Yes it would. 
> My basic standpoint is this; do you gotta go with the latest and greatest? 
> No, but, 1 1/8 inch steerers, threadless headsets/stems & disc brakes have 
> been around for 20ish years (plus), they are so old they are almost retro 
> themselves. And, if they weren't good, if they weren't an improvement, they 
> would have gone by the wayside ages ago.
> I am hopeful that forrays into these areas by the recent tandem will help 
> to break down resistance to these advancements.

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