[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Good luck, Larry. In my experience, if it requires ventilation zips it's not breathable enough and if it requires a coating or laminate, it will wear off and you have a wind jacket at best. In terms of cost, I fully expect this jacket to last 30 years or more and still work as well then as it does now (it does not use coatings, only the inherent properties of the fabrics. Double ventile jackets are still around and working after 40+ years), so at roughly $400, that's $13.34 per year. With abandon, Patrick On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:45:09 PM UTC-6, LF wrote: Patrick, I had great results with a Burley Rainrider, http://www.dirtragmag.com/reviews/burley-rain-rider-jacket waterproof with a good ventilation system. They were pretty popular. The waterproofing stopped working as well as it use to, so I hung it up, in favor of a Patagonia Torrent shell. I would much prefer the Rainrider, if only the waterproofing worked. I'm going to try treating it with NeverWet superhydrophobic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7is6r6zXFDc and hope for the best. I'm optomistic. Best, Larry On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:14:29 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote: The post finally arrived from Scotland with my new Hilltrek Cotton Analogy rainwear (single layer Ventile with a fur analogy liner that actively pushes liquid and vapor (not just vapor) out from the jacket. Was the wait (felt nearly as long as waiting for my Hunqapillar) worth it? In short, wow. Just did 3 days bikepacking on Pikes Peak with rain about half the time, and some of that was solid deluge. I stayed dry, no matter what I was doing (we stopped short of snorkeling the marshes though). No wet from inside sweat while climbing steep hills, no wet from the rain. Amazing, incredible stuff. Yes, this is a a lot of praise for three days of rain, but I know how well ventile wears so longevity should not be an issue, and the fur liner is the possible wear point. They've only been around for 15 years, so none knows how long they will last. Grin. I got the Cansip breeches and Liathach smock. http://www.hilltrek.co.uk/acatalog/Liathach-Cotton-Analogy-Extreme-Smock-.html. The Liathach (as you can see from photos below), fonts amazing well, allows complete freedom of movement, unzips at the sides for complete range of motion on the bike while still having greater coverage font and rear. The fur analogy never felt wet on the inside. The only moisture I felt was the moments it took my sweat to move from my skin to my wool long sleeve shirt, maybe five minutes paused at the top of a hill, no more sweat, and that's with it raining significantly the whole time. Said wool shirt, dry within minutes at the car. Never felt the need to take it off due to cold/wet wool feeling. Amazing stuff. Well worth considering carrying. I would highly recommend the cotton analogy over double ventile -- the active pushing of moisture out of the garment is stunning and effective. All previous rainwear I've had would be lucky to be half this good. Amazing. I'm looking forward to abusing them even more on the Colorado Trail Pictures are in the camping album, if you missed seeing that. Here's the link again: http://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/sets/72157634656798828/ With abandon, Patrick *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org* *www.OurHolyConception.org* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
I have not climbed or hiked in Scotland, but the people I talked with about the Grampians have told me it is a beautiful and difficult place. The high latitude (think northern Canada) combined with winds from Atlantic depressions makes for a difficult climate. That said, I want to get to the West Highland trail with the Hunqapillar! Be well - Bob Definitely the high latitude makes a big difference. I've read a couple of good books about Denali (hey, we can all dream!). Some climbers who have climbed the Himalayas, Alps, and Andes will look at the relatively low elevation and wind up underestimating the extreme challenges climbing so far north present. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Deacon, I wonder how the Wiggy's Ventile Parkahttp://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=193would compare to the Hilltrek. Wiggy's is the sleeping bag brand that Rivendell sells. On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:14:29 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote: The post finally arrived from Scotland with my new Hilltrek Cotton Analogy rainwear (single layer Ventile with a fur analogy liner that actively pushes liquid and vapor (not just vapor) out from the jacket. Was the wait (felt nearly as long as waiting for my Hunqapillar) worth it? In short, wow. Just did 3 days bikepacking on Pikes Peak with rain about half the time, and some of that was solid deluge. I stayed dry, no matter what I was doing (we stopped short of snorkeling the marshes though). No wet from inside sweat while climbing steep hills, no wet from the rain. Amazing, incredible stuff. Yes, this is a a lot of praise for three days of rain, but I know how well ventile wears so longevity should not be an issue, and the fur liner is the possible wear point. They've only been around for 15 years, so none knows how long they will last. Grin. I got the Cansip breeches and Liathach smock. http://www.hilltrek.co.uk/acatalog/Liathach-Cotton-Analogy-Extreme-Smock-.html. The Liathach (as you can see from photos below), fonts amazing well, allows complete freedom of movement, unzips at the sides for complete range of motion on the bike while still having greater coverage font and rear. The fur analogy never felt wet on the inside. The only moisture I felt was the moments it took my sweat to move from my skin to my wool long sleeve shirt, maybe five minutes paused at the top of a hill, no more sweat, and that's with it raining significantly the whole time. Said wool shirt, dry within minutes at the car. Never felt the need to take it off due to cold/wet wool feeling. Amazing stuff. Well worth considering carrying. I would highly recommend the cotton analogy over double ventile -- the active pushing of moisture out of the garment is stunning and effective. All previous rainwear I've had would be lucky to be half this good. Amazing. I'm looking forward to abusing them even more on the Colorado Trail Pictures are in the camping album, if you missed seeing that. Here's the link again: http://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/sets/72157634656798828/ With abandon, Patrick *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org* *www.OurHolyConception.org* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
I talked with Mr. Wiggy (they are also in Colorado, so I tried to go with them first). He doesn't offer the fur analogy liner that Hilltrek does, and for me that was the deciding factor. I also looked into his sleeping bags, but he's big on his manmade insulation and I greatly prefer down (or wool for body wear), though I haven't tried his specific insulation. With abandon, Patrick On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 8:07:18 PM UTC-6, KTY wrote: Deacon, I wonder how the Wiggy's Ventile Parkahttp://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=193would compare to the Hilltrek. Wiggy's is the sleeping bag brand that Rivendell sells. On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:14:29 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote: The post finally arrived from Scotland with my new Hilltrek Cotton Analogy rainwear (single layer Ventile with a fur analogy liner that actively pushes liquid and vapor (not just vapor) out from the jacket. Was the wait (felt nearly as long as waiting for my Hunqapillar) worth it? In short, wow. Just did 3 days bikepacking on Pikes Peak with rain about half the time, and some of that was solid deluge. I stayed dry, no matter what I was doing (we stopped short of snorkeling the marshes though). No wet from inside sweat while climbing steep hills, no wet from the rain. Amazing, incredible stuff. Yes, this is a a lot of praise for three days of rain, but I know how well ventile wears so longevity should not be an issue, and the fur liner is the possible wear point. They've only been around for 15 years, so none knows how long they will last. Grin. I got the Cansip breeches and Liathach smock. http://www.hilltrek.co.uk/acatalog/Liathach-Cotton-Analogy-Extreme-Smock-.html. The Liathach (as you can see from photos below), fonts amazing well, allows complete freedom of movement, unzips at the sides for complete range of motion on the bike while still having greater coverage font and rear. The fur analogy never felt wet on the inside. The only moisture I felt was the moments it took my sweat to move from my skin to my wool long sleeve shirt, maybe five minutes paused at the top of a hill, no more sweat, and that's with it raining significantly the whole time. Said wool shirt, dry within minutes at the car. Never felt the need to take it off due to cold/wet wool feeling. Amazing stuff. Well worth considering carrying. I would highly recommend the cotton analogy over double ventile -- the active pushing of moisture out of the garment is stunning and effective. All previous rainwear I've had would be lucky to be half this good. Amazing. I'm looking forward to abusing them even more on the Colorado Trail Pictures are in the camping album, if you missed seeing that. Here's the link again: http://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/sets/72157634656798828/ With abandon, Patrick *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org* *www.OurHolyConception.org* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Patrick, I had great results with a Burley Rainrider, http://www.dirtragmag.com/reviews/burley-rain-rider-jacket waterproof with a good ventilation system. They were pretty popular. The waterproofing stopped working as well as it use to, so I hung it up, in favor of a Patagonia Torrent shell. I would much prefer the Rainrider, if only the waterproofing worked. I'm going to try treating it with NeverWet superhydrophobic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7is6r6zXFDc and hope for the best. I'm optomistic. Best, Larry On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:14:29 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote: The post finally arrived from Scotland with my new Hilltrek Cotton Analogy rainwear (single layer Ventile with a fur analogy liner that actively pushes liquid and vapor (not just vapor) out from the jacket. Was the wait (felt nearly as long as waiting for my Hunqapillar) worth it? In short, wow. Just did 3 days bikepacking on Pikes Peak with rain about half the time, and some of that was solid deluge. I stayed dry, no matter what I was doing (we stopped short of snorkeling the marshes though). No wet from inside sweat while climbing steep hills, no wet from the rain. Amazing, incredible stuff. Yes, this is a a lot of praise for three days of rain, but I know how well ventile wears so longevity should not be an issue, and the fur liner is the possible wear point. They've only been around for 15 years, so none knows how long they will last. Grin. I got the Cansip breeches and Liathach smock. http://www.hilltrek.co.uk/acatalog/Liathach-Cotton-Analogy-Extreme-Smock-.html. The Liathach (as you can see from photos below), fonts amazing well, allows complete freedom of movement, unzips at the sides for complete range of motion on the bike while still having greater coverage font and rear. The fur analogy never felt wet on the inside. The only moisture I felt was the moments it took my sweat to move from my skin to my wool long sleeve shirt, maybe five minutes paused at the top of a hill, no more sweat, and that's with it raining significantly the whole time. Said wool shirt, dry within minutes at the car. Never felt the need to take it off due to cold/wet wool feeling. Amazing stuff. Well worth considering carrying. I would highly recommend the cotton analogy over double ventile -- the active pushing of moisture out of the garment is stunning and effective. All previous rainwear I've had would be lucky to be half this good. Amazing. I'm looking forward to abusing them even more on the Colorado Trail Pictures are in the camping album, if you missed seeing that. Here's the link again: http://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/sets/72157634656798828/ With abandon, Patrick *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org* *www.OurHolyConception.org* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Indeed, Bob. What frustrates me is I've long asked local and national experts about how to not get wet from sweat but stay dry. They all talked up their systems of choice, but none of them actually work in use. The hypothermia zone is especially dangerous from 25˚F - 60˚F. Add in wet at those temps and core body temp can drop dangerously low dangerously fast. For me, that's the intended temp range for with I bought this jacket -- anything above or below that and I already have systems to handle it. It's a bonus that it works great below that too. At $390 it seems pricy for a rain jacket (though in line with the lowish end of the upper end of Goretex), but a bargain when I consider that I can now be out in anything doing what I love to do. Yeah, I'm excited. And no doubt the Colorado Trail (or any alpine high altitude) has the potential to be wet and in the 30's in the middle of summer. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 9:04:35 PM UTC-6, Robert Barr wrote: Patrick - we learn together. When you are comfortable with constant rain, back and forth, exert and sweat/rest, you are doing well. And when you can do that in the difficult temperatures of 50 - 60 degrees I think you have success. Bob On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.comjavascript: wrote: Exactly, Bob. You are clearly ahead of my slow learning curve. I wish I'd found this 15 years ago (when the Nikwax analogy first came out, though the blending with the ventile is fairly new). Paramo make a nylon version of the same concept if you prefer nylon (Hilltrek sells it, not sure if anyone in the US does). I prever the ventile for it's soft, quiet, and hearty wear. From my own (so far short) experience and from reading up on how this system works, it is ideal for wet or dry conditions below 60-70˚F, all the way down however far you want to go just by adding additional layers. Sitting around camp at 60-65˚F, I put it on over my thin wool t-shirt when it got cloudy and windy. Happy as a clam. Previously I'd have used a wool layer for that. Then it would start to rain, with more wind. I was fine until about 50˚F, when I put on a wool layer or two. Coming out this morning, I cycled out with my Riv. Aussie wool long sleeve shirt under the Cotton Analogy jacket. I sweated a lot going up the hills, then waited for my daughter to walk her bike up and we'd rest together. The constant rain, back and forth, exert and sweat/rest and cool down never felt wet or clammy or cold. Warm and toasty and dry the whole time. Before ordering from Hilltrek, I asked Dave and Grant about that double ventile cycling jacket. It's not going to happen, but they were curious to know how I liked this system when I got it. It would be great if they would carry some of this stuff. Hilltrek has a cycling specific jacket, but for my multi-murpose use, I preferred the smock. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:15:33 PM UTC-6, Robert Barr wrote: In the 90s Americans climbing in Scotland were frustrated with their mountaineering gear made for cold dry conditions. They were getting drenched with sweat during exertion and then freezing when they slowed down, They noticed that the Scottish climbers were using a very different clothing system for their unique climate. Instead of bomb-proof waterproof fabrics they went with a highly breathable exterior fabric and a wicking pile on the interior. The Scottish system was much discussed in the late 90s because it was counter to all the major trends of waterproof and seam sealed. I know that much of the story because my all time favorite jacket for strenuous activities in cold wet weather is a Patagonia Infurno, which was Patagonia's take on the Scottish system. Sounds like from Deacon's note that he finds the system good for cool to cold and wet riding. I do as well. Grant was working on a Ventile jacket. I remember at least one picture of him wearing a trial version. I don't know if the project continues. For hot and humid with rain I wear shorts and seersucker or a wicking t-shirt. Bob (Indianapolis) On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.comwrote: For 70+˚F and high humidity with rain, I would wear shorts and t-shirt. Colorado's mountains don't get that combo. Storms drop us to 50-60 or lower. So we may start out at 80, but cool down fast with the storm. Scotland has used boiled, lanolined wool for hundreds of years at least for cold/wet combo. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:36:07 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote: It is in the 80's - 100's here in MD with high humidity in the summer. I am basically drenched in sweat when riding until fall, when it gets back into the 50's. So I think that means no breatheable stuff will matter in those conditions of summer. It was around 100 I think on Saturday when I got caught in a
Re: [RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Is Scotland's weather so unique a combination of cold and wet that experienced climbers would not normally encounter similar conditions a myriad of other places? Is seems to me the Scots are unique in the ingenuity of their solution more than their weather. Of course I'm guilty of being a likely too proud Scot, I am biased toward Scottish genius. Grin. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:15:33 PM UTC-6, Robert Barr wrote: In the 90s Americans climbing in Scotland were frustrated with their mountaineering gear made for cold dry conditions. They were getting drenched with sweat during exertion and then freezing when they slowed down, They noticed that the Scottish climbers were using a very different clothing system for their unique climate. Instead of bomb-proof waterproof fabrics they went with a highly breathable exterior fabric and a wicking pile on the interior. The Scottish system was much discussed in the late 90s because it was counter to all the major trends of waterproof and seam sealed. I know that much of the story because my all time favorite jacket for strenuous activities in cold wet weather is a Patagonia Infurno, which was Patagonia's take on the Scottish system. Sounds like from Deacon's note that he finds the system good for cool to cold and wet riding. I do as well. Grant was working on a Ventile jacket. I remember at least one picture of him wearing a trial version. I don't know if the project continues. For hot and humid with rain I wear shorts and seersucker or a wicking t-shirt. Bob (Indianapolis) On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.comjavascript: wrote: For 70+˚F and high humidity with rain, I would wear shorts and t-shirt. Colorado's mountains don't get that combo. Storms drop us to 50-60 or lower. So we may start out at 80, but cool down fast with the storm. Scotland has used boiled, lanolined wool for hundreds of years at least for cold/wet combo. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:36:07 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote: It is in the 80's - 100's here in MD with high humidity in the summer. I am basically drenched in sweat when riding until fall, when it gets back into the 50's. So I think that means no breatheable stuff will matter in those conditions of summer. It was around 100 I think on Saturday when I got caught in a shower. But I didn't want to ride under my poncho because I was already boiling over, and the plastic would have made matters worse I think. I wonder what people did back in the day before all the technology for breatheable stuff we have now? I guess just got sweaty. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
I think you are correct about the jacket being a bargain if it keeps you warn and dry. In the mountains it is too easy to go from cold and wet to real trouble. On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote: Indeed, Bob. What frustrates me is I've long asked local and national experts about how to not get wet from sweat but stay dry. They all talked up their systems of choice, but none of them actually work in use. The hypothermia zone is especially dangerous from 25˚F - 60˚F. Add in wet at those temps and core body temp can drop dangerously low dangerously fast. For me, that's the intended temp range for with I bought this jacket -- anything above or below that and I already have systems to handle it. It's a bonus that it works great below that too. At $390 it seems pricy for a rain jacket (though in line with the lowish end of the upper end of Goretex), but a bargain when I consider that I can now be out in anything doing what I love to do. Yeah, I'm excited. And no doubt the Colorado Trail (or any alpine high altitude) has the potential to be wet and in the 30's in the middle of summer. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 9:04:35 PM UTC-6, Robert Barr wrote: Patrick - we learn together. When you are comfortable with constant rain, back and forth, exert and sweat/rest, you are doing well. And when you can do that in the difficult temperatures of 50 - 60 degrees I think you have success. Bob On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.comwrote: Exactly, Bob. You are clearly ahead of my slow learning curve. I wish I'd found this 15 years ago (when the Nikwax analogy first came out, though the blending with the ventile is fairly new). Paramo make a nylon version of the same concept if you prefer nylon (Hilltrek sells it, not sure if anyone in the US does). I prever the ventile for it's soft, quiet, and hearty wear. From my own (so far short) experience and from reading up on how this system works, it is ideal for wet or dry conditions below 60-70˚F, all the way down however far you want to go just by adding additional layers. Sitting around camp at 60-65˚F, I put it on over my thin wool t-shirt when it got cloudy and windy. Happy as a clam. Previously I'd have used a wool layer for that. Then it would start to rain, with more wind. I was fine until about 50˚F, when I put on a wool layer or two. Coming out this morning, I cycled out with my Riv. Aussie wool long sleeve shirt under the Cotton Analogy jacket. I sweated a lot going up the hills, then waited for my daughter to walk her bike up and we'd rest together. The constant rain, back and forth, exert and sweat/rest and cool down never felt wet or clammy or cold. Warm and toasty and dry the whole time. Before ordering from Hilltrek, I asked Dave and Grant about that double ventile cycling jacket. It's not going to happen, but they were curious to know how I liked this system when I got it. It would be great if they would carry some of this stuff. Hilltrek has a cycling specific jacket, but for my multi-murpose use, I preferred the smock. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:15:33 PM UTC-6, Robert Barr wrote: In the 90s Americans climbing in Scotland were frustrated with their mountaineering gear made for cold dry conditions. They were getting drenched with sweat during exertion and then freezing when they slowed down, They noticed that the Scottish climbers were using a very different clothing system for their unique climate. Instead of bomb-proof waterproof fabrics they went with a highly breathable exterior fabric and a wicking pile on the interior. The Scottish system was much discussed in the late 90s because it was counter to all the major trends of waterproof and seam sealed. I know that much of the story because my all time favorite jacket for strenuous activities in cold wet weather is a Patagonia Infurno, which was Patagonia's take on the Scottish system. Sounds like from Deacon's note that he finds the system good for cool to cold and wet riding. I do as well. Grant was working on a Ventile jacket. I remember at least one picture of him wearing a trial version. I don't know if the project continues. For hot and humid with rain I wear shorts and seersucker or a wicking t-shirt. Bob (Indianapolis) On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.comwrote: For 70+˚F and high humidity with rain, I would wear shorts and t-shirt. Colorado's mountains don't get that combo. Storms drop us to 50-60 or lower. So we may start out at 80, but cool down fast with the storm. Scotland has used boiled, lanolined wool for hundreds of years at least for cold/wet combo. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:36:07 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote: It is in the 80's - 100's here in MD with high humidity in the summer. I am basically drenched in sweat when riding until fall, when it
Re: [RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
I have not climbed or hiked in Scotland, but the people I talked with about the Grampians have told me it is a beautiful and difficult place. The high latitude (think northern Canada) combined with winds from Atlantic depressions makes for a difficult climate. That said, I want to get to the West Highland trail with the Hunqapillar! Be well - Bob On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote: Is Scotland's weather so unique a combination of cold and wet that experienced climbers would not normally encounter similar conditions a myriad of other places? Is seems to me the Scots are unique in the ingenuity of their solution more than their weather. Of course I'm guilty of being a likely too proud Scot, I am biased toward Scottish genius. Grin. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:15:33 PM UTC-6, Robert Barr wrote: In the 90s Americans climbing in Scotland were frustrated with their mountaineering gear made for cold dry conditions. They were getting drenched with sweat during exertion and then freezing when they slowed down, They noticed that the Scottish climbers were using a very different clothing system for their unique climate. Instead of bomb-proof waterproof fabrics they went with a highly breathable exterior fabric and a wicking pile on the interior. The Scottish system was much discussed in the late 90s because it was counter to all the major trends of waterproof and seam sealed. I know that much of the story because my all time favorite jacket for strenuous activities in cold wet weather is a Patagonia Infurno, which was Patagonia's take on the Scottish system. Sounds like from Deacon's note that he finds the system good for cool to cold and wet riding. I do as well. Grant was working on a Ventile jacket. I remember at least one picture of him wearing a trial version. I don't know if the project continues. For hot and humid with rain I wear shorts and seersucker or a wicking t-shirt. Bob (Indianapolis) On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com wrote: For 70+˚F and high humidity with rain, I would wear shorts and t-shirt. Colorado's mountains don't get that combo. Storms drop us to 50-60 or lower. So we may start out at 80, but cool down fast with the storm. Scotland has used boiled, lanolined wool for hundreds of years at least for cold/wet combo. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:36:07 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote: It is in the 80's - 100's here in MD with high humidity in the summer. I am basically drenched in sweat when riding until fall, when it gets back into the 50's. So I think that means no breatheable stuff will matter in those conditions of summer. It was around 100 I think on Saturday when I got caught in a shower. But I didn't want to ride under my poncho because I was already boiling over, and the plastic would have made matters worse I think. I wonder what people did back in the day before all the technology for breatheable stuff we have now? I guess just got sweaty. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@**googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.**com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/rbw-owners-bunchhttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_outhttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Wait a second...you actually didn't sweat under those garments? That is amazing. First I have never heard of rainwear that actually keeps you dry from both the rain, and your own sweat! What were the temps you were riding in? I have read that breatheable materials don't breathe unless the atmosphere outside the garment is cooler and dryer than inside the garment. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Did I sweat? Yes. Did the sweat have somewhere to go (both liquid and vapor)? Yes. It breathes as well as a heavy cotton shirt. Because it's cotton (yes, the stuff everyone says will kill you. They don't know about ventile). The mechanism for how it works is completely different from the boil-in-a-bag stuff that temperature matters for. It was in the 50's (F) and raining. I was riding up slopes of 12-15% with parts that were steeper for longer. As an experiment, I ran a trail with the breeches on in 80˚F at 40% humidity and they breathed pretty well for that too (I didn't wear the jacket). Hope that helps. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 4:56:47 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote: Wait a second...you actually didn't sweat under those garments? That is amazing. First I have never heard of rainwear that actually keeps you dry from both the rain, and your own sweat! What were the temps you were riding in? I have read that breatheable materials don't breathe unless the atmosphere outside the garment is cooler and dryer than inside the garment. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
There are limits. In my closet rests the original Sierra Designs 60/40 parka. The lining is ventile cotton. It is way cool. There is no question that the Sierra Design parka exhausts moisture better than my Arc'Teryx Gortex parka. Although they are remarkably similar design-wise. That said.. I cannot imagine a parka that can vent against barometric pressure. If the outside is heavier than the inside, how can you disperse moisture? Will On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:56:47 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote: Wait a second...you actually didn't sweat under those garments? That is amazing. First I have never heard of rainwear that actually keeps you dry from both the rain, and your own sweat! What were the temps you were riding in? I have read that breatheable materials don't breathe unless the atmosphere outside the garment is cooler and dryer than inside the garment. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
It is in the 80's - 100's here in MD with high humidity in the summer. I am basically drenched in sweat when riding until fall, when it gets back into the 50's. So I think that means no breatheable stuff will matter in those conditions of summer. It was around 100 I think on Saturday when I got caught in a shower. But I didn't want to ride under my poncho because I was already boiling over, and the plastic would have made matters worse I think. I wonder what people did back in the day before all the technology for breatheable stuff we have now? I guess just got sweaty. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Capillary action of fur. *Capillary action* (sometimes *capillarity*, *capillary motion*, or * wicking*) is the ability of a liquid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid to flow in narrow spaces without the assistance of, and in opposition to, external forces like gravity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capillary_action But I'm not sure what conditions are required to generate enough delta between inside and outside environments that are prohibitive for other jackets, so I am in no way qualified to comment on that specific. But the fur action of the liner is fascinating, and is far superior to my single layer ventile. This is not waterproof in the sense that you couldmake a cup from it, pour water in it and come back an hour later without any drips going through. Stand under a waterfall, you may well get wet because water does eventually soak the cotton and the fur pumping action can only do so much. But in my real world use, this is by far the most practical and dry rainwear I've ever had. I've had the full range of gear (cheap poncho to expensive Gortex, to single layer ventile), and this trip would not have been nearly this dry or warm with any of them. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:46:44 PM UTC-6, Will wrote: There are limits. In my closet rests the original Sierra Designs 60/40 parka. The lining is ventile cotton. It is way cool. There is no question that the Sierra Design parka exhausts moisture better than my Arc'Teryx Gortex parka. Although they are remarkably similar design-wise. That said.. I cannot imagine a parka that can vent against barometric pressure. If the outside is heavier than the inside, how can you disperse moisture? Will On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:56:47 PM UTC-5, Michael wrote: Wait a second...you actually didn't sweat under those garments? That is amazing. First I have never heard of rainwear that actually keeps you dry from both the rain, and your own sweat! What were the temps you were riding in? I have read that breatheable materials don't breathe unless the atmosphere outside the garment is cooler and dryer than inside the garment. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
For 70+˚F and high humidity with rain, I would wear shorts and t-shirt. Colorado's mountains don't get that combo. Storms drop us to 50-60 or lower. So we may start out at 80, but cool down fast with the storm. Scotland has used boiled, lanolined wool for hundreds of years at least for cold/wet combo. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:36:07 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote: It is in the 80's - 100's here in MD with high humidity in the summer. I am basically drenched in sweat when riding until fall, when it gets back into the 50's. So I think that means no breatheable stuff will matter in those conditions of summer. It was around 100 I think on Saturday when I got caught in a shower. But I didn't want to ride under my poncho because I was already boiling over, and the plastic would have made matters worse I think. I wonder what people did back in the day before all the technology for breatheable stuff we have now? I guess just got sweaty. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
In the 90s Americans climbing in Scotland were frustrated with their mountaineering gear made for cold dry conditions. They were getting drenched with sweat during exertion and then freezing when they slowed down, They noticed that the Scottish climbers were using a very different clothing system for their unique climate. Instead of bomb-proof waterproof fabrics they went with a highly breathable exterior fabric and a wicking pile on the interior. The Scottish system was much discussed in the late 90s because it was counter to all the major trends of waterproof and seam sealed. I know that much of the story because my all time favorite jacket for strenuous activities in cold wet weather is a Patagonia Infurno, which was Patagonia's take on the Scottish system. Sounds like from Deacon's note that he finds the system good for cool to cold and wet riding. I do as well. Grant was working on a Ventile jacket. I remember at least one picture of him wearing a trial version. I don't know if the project continues. For hot and humid with rain I wear shorts and seersucker or a wicking t-shirt. Bob (Indianapolis) On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote: For 70+˚F and high humidity with rain, I would wear shorts and t-shirt. Colorado's mountains don't get that combo. Storms drop us to 50-60 or lower. So we may start out at 80, but cool down fast with the storm. Scotland has used boiled, lanolined wool for hundreds of years at least for cold/wet combo. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:36:07 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote: It is in the 80's - 100's here in MD with high humidity in the summer. I am basically drenched in sweat when riding until fall, when it gets back into the 50's. So I think that means no breatheable stuff will matter in those conditions of summer. It was around 100 I think on Saturday when I got caught in a shower. But I didn't want to ride under my poncho because I was already boiling over, and the plastic would have made matters worse I think. I wonder what people did back in the day before all the technology for breatheable stuff we have now? I guess just got sweaty. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Exactly, Bob. You are clearly ahead of my slow learning curve. I wish I'd found this 15 years ago (when the Nikwax analogy first came out, though the blending with the ventile is fairly new). Paramo make a nylon version of the same concept if you prefer nylon (Hilltrek sells it, not sure if anyone in the US does). I prever the ventile for it's soft, quiet, and hearty wear. From my own (so far short) experience and from reading up on how this system works, it is ideal for wet or dry conditions below 60-70˚F, all the way down however far you want to go just by adding additional layers. Sitting around camp at 60-65˚F, I put it on over my thin wool t-shirt when it got cloudy and windy. Happy as a clam. Previously I'd have used a wool layer for that. Then it would start to rain, with more wind. I was fine until about 50˚F, when I put on a wool layer or two. Coming out this morning, I cycled out with my Riv. Aussie wool long sleeve shirt under the Cotton Analogy jacket. I sweated a lot going up the hills, then waited for my daughter to walk her bike up and we'd rest together. The constant rain, back and forth, exert and sweat/rest and cool down never felt wet or clammy or cold. Warm and toasty and dry the whole time. Before ordering from Hilltrek, I asked Dave and Grant about that double ventile cycling jacket. It's not going to happen, but they were curious to know how I liked this system when I got it. It would be great if they would carry some of this stuff. Hilltrek has a cycling specific jacket, but for my multi-murpose use, I preferred the smock. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:15:33 PM UTC-6, Robert Barr wrote: In the 90s Americans climbing in Scotland were frustrated with their mountaineering gear made for cold dry conditions. They were getting drenched with sweat during exertion and then freezing when they slowed down, They noticed that the Scottish climbers were using a very different clothing system for their unique climate. Instead of bomb-proof waterproof fabrics they went with a highly breathable exterior fabric and a wicking pile on the interior. The Scottish system was much discussed in the late 90s because it was counter to all the major trends of waterproof and seam sealed. I know that much of the story because my all time favorite jacket for strenuous activities in cold wet weather is a Patagonia Infurno, which was Patagonia's take on the Scottish system. Sounds like from Deacon's note that he finds the system good for cool to cold and wet riding. I do as well. Grant was working on a Ventile jacket. I remember at least one picture of him wearing a trial version. I don't know if the project continues. For hot and humid with rain I wear shorts and seersucker or a wicking t-shirt. Bob (Indianapolis) On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.comjavascript: wrote: For 70+˚F and high humidity with rain, I would wear shorts and t-shirt. Colorado's mountains don't get that combo. Storms drop us to 50-60 or lower. So we may start out at 80, but cool down fast with the storm. Scotland has used boiled, lanolined wool for hundreds of years at least for cold/wet combo. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:36:07 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote: It is in the 80's - 100's here in MD with high humidity in the summer. I am basically drenched in sweat when riding until fall, when it gets back into the 50's. So I think that means no breatheable stuff will matter in those conditions of summer. It was around 100 I think on Saturday when I got caught in a shower. But I didn't want to ride under my poncho because I was already boiling over, and the plastic would have made matters worse I think. I wonder what people did back in the day before all the technology for breatheable stuff we have now? I guess just got sweaty. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Exceptional Rainwear
Patrick - we learn together. When you are comfortable with constant rain, back and forth, exert and sweat/rest, you are doing well. And when you can do that in the difficult temperatures of 50 - 60 degrees I think you have success. Bob On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote: Exactly, Bob. You are clearly ahead of my slow learning curve. I wish I'd found this 15 years ago (when the Nikwax analogy first came out, though the blending with the ventile is fairly new). Paramo make a nylon version of the same concept if you prefer nylon (Hilltrek sells it, not sure if anyone in the US does). I prever the ventile for it's soft, quiet, and hearty wear. From my own (so far short) experience and from reading up on how this system works, it is ideal for wet or dry conditions below 60-70˚F, all the way down however far you want to go just by adding additional layers. Sitting around camp at 60-65˚F, I put it on over my thin wool t-shirt when it got cloudy and windy. Happy as a clam. Previously I'd have used a wool layer for that. Then it would start to rain, with more wind. I was fine until about 50˚F, when I put on a wool layer or two. Coming out this morning, I cycled out with my Riv. Aussie wool long sleeve shirt under the Cotton Analogy jacket. I sweated a lot going up the hills, then waited for my daughter to walk her bike up and we'd rest together. The constant rain, back and forth, exert and sweat/rest and cool down never felt wet or clammy or cold. Warm and toasty and dry the whole time. Before ordering from Hilltrek, I asked Dave and Grant about that double ventile cycling jacket. It's not going to happen, but they were curious to know how I liked this system when I got it. It would be great if they would carry some of this stuff. Hilltrek has a cycling specific jacket, but for my multi-murpose use, I preferred the smock. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:15:33 PM UTC-6, Robert Barr wrote: In the 90s Americans climbing in Scotland were frustrated with their mountaineering gear made for cold dry conditions. They were getting drenched with sweat during exertion and then freezing when they slowed down, They noticed that the Scottish climbers were using a very different clothing system for their unique climate. Instead of bomb-proof waterproof fabrics they went with a highly breathable exterior fabric and a wicking pile on the interior. The Scottish system was much discussed in the late 90s because it was counter to all the major trends of waterproof and seam sealed. I know that much of the story because my all time favorite jacket for strenuous activities in cold wet weather is a Patagonia Infurno, which was Patagonia's take on the Scottish system. Sounds like from Deacon's note that he finds the system good for cool to cold and wet riding. I do as well. Grant was working on a Ventile jacket. I remember at least one picture of him wearing a trial version. I don't know if the project continues. For hot and humid with rain I wear shorts and seersucker or a wicking t-shirt. Bob (Indianapolis) On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com wrote: For 70+˚F and high humidity with rain, I would wear shorts and t-shirt. Colorado's mountains don't get that combo. Storms drop us to 50-60 or lower. So we may start out at 80, but cool down fast with the storm. Scotland has used boiled, lanolined wool for hundreds of years at least for cold/wet combo. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:36:07 PM UTC-6, Michael wrote: It is in the 80's - 100's here in MD with high humidity in the summer. I am basically drenched in sweat when riding until fall, when it gets back into the 50's. So I think that means no breatheable stuff will matter in those conditions of summer. It was around 100 I think on Saturday when I got caught in a shower. But I didn't want to ride under my poncho because I was already boiling over, and the plastic would have made matters worse I think. I wonder what people did back in the day before all the technology for breatheable stuff we have now? I guess just got sweaty. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@**googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.**com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/rbw-owners-bunchhttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_outhttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this
