subject:"\[RBW\] Re\: Group Riding \/ New Covid\-19 World"

Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Chances are, Bruce, that Eric simply replied via email, so had no way to 
see the thread was deleted prior to your response.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 6:27:48 PM UTC-6, Fullylugged wrote:
>
> Eric:
>
>   Jim deleted the parent thread to this post and asked that we stop it. 
>  Please do.
>
>   Thanks
>
>  Bruce
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Fullylugged

Eric:

  Jim deleted the parent thread to this post and asked that we stop it.  Please 
do.

  Thanks

 Bruce

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Eric Daume

It’s only a very tiny bit of snake oil.

On Friday, March 20, 2020, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Yeah no, I'm not buying snake oil.
>
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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!

PS I sent my reply above before the ones calling for “stick to bikes.” Sorry! 
They came through after I hit send. I shall now remain mum.

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!

This virus is terrifying. At first people dismissed it. Then they said, “Oh, we
won’t worry; it’s just going to affect the frail and elderly - *I* will be
fine.” (How can that be a comfort to you?! This lack of concern for one’s
fellow man and preoccupation with self nearly did me in.) Now the virus has
drawn itself up to its full, terrible height and we are seeing it do what most
never thought likely. No age is a guarantee of survival. This virus is no
respecter of health status - it can take you down in the prime of your life and
land you in ICU just as it can a more vulnerable, aged person. The only other
virus I’m old enough to remember fearing was H1N1. I was an ER nurse at the
time and feared that virus every single shift I worked. But it was nothing
compared to THIS.

As far as natural medicine and Western medicine, I tend to tread lightly. I am
not interested in arguing behind a keyboard here, but I will say that we in
healthcare have told patients a lot of things in the name of “science” that
were just plain wrong. “Don’t eat butter, eat margarine.” “Don’t eat fat, eat
these fat-free carbs.” “Don’t eat eggs, they’ll spike your cholesterol” and so
on and so forth. I have known real people who have seen great improvements to
their health by incorporating some natural remedies. I don’t believe
natural/alternative medicine and Western medicine are mutually exclusive. I
don’t think homeopathy takes the place of Western medicine. I don’t think
Western medicine has all the answers.

I suppose I’m a fan of integrative medicine.

I’m not going to buy anything from the website above, but I do advocate
readying your immune system as best you can for a virus you are most likely
going to encounter sooner rather than later. Vitamin D3 with K2 to boost
immunity, I make and drink chicken stock, take probiotics, eat a LOT of
vegetables and berries and pastured meat. I make everything from scratch -
bread, salad dressing, all of it. In a time when we feel so helpless, there is
some comfort in knowing there are little things we can do to stand up to this.
I will likely get this virus one day, but I hope I’ve given my body (and the
bodies in my family) a fighting chance against it. That’s all we can do,
Friends.

Let’s be kind to each other right now, even if we disagree.
Leah

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread DHans

Yeah, I agree let’s not debate these unrelated issues. I defended DP from 
others but I think the last post may be a bridge too far. Let’s stick to bikes. 
Doug

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Bruce Herbitter

Hey all.   Homeopathic remedies have no place on this bike list. Specifically 
arguing about it.  Can we please stop posts either way?

I hope the virus crisis passes soon and with as little impact as possible so we 
can all worry about saddle height and if chainstays have gotten too long

Regards to all 

BH  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 20, 2020, at 2:42 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> 
> Yeah no, I'm not buying snake oil. 
> 
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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread lambbo

As the stakes are so high, we should be careful not to spread 
misinformation.  To be clear, it has repeatedly been proven that Homeopathy 
is not effective as medicine.  Look up the original sources on your own, 
they go back to the early 20th century. Great source of hydration tho!   

For the record, the British government (mentioned in an earlier post as 
funding homeopathy) stopped supporting homeopathy in 2017...incredibly late 
in the game but none-the-less, their highest court and the NHS agreed that, 
factually, it is not medicine. 

I'm sorry to post a response, but it is very dangerous if anyone on this 
list thinks they can stave off a deadly disease with homeopathy. 

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 3:42:42 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Yeah no, I'm not buying snake oil. 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Joe Bernard

Yeah no, I'm not buying snake oil. 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

As the stakes are so high I am posting this. It seems reasonable to flatten
the curve by reasonable and available means, and as homeopathy is readily
available and inexpensive, and the supply chain is in the US or France, and
thus costs $5 to use the preventative per person for weeks (without side
effects), for those who are interested here are two links. If you're not
interested, please ignore:

Addressing the efficacy of homeopathy, there is science to back it up:
https://www.britishhomeopathic.org/evidence/the-evidence-for-homeopathy/

>From the branch of Homeopathy that Saint Mother Teresa learned from, here
is their recommended protocol for preventing COVID-19:
https://www.pbhrfindia.org/blog/16-homeopathy-a-various-diseases/256-suggested-remedy-for-ncorv-with-banerji-protocols.html

It reads:

Under 'The Banerji Protocols' of Treatment, with Homeopathic medicines: For
Prevention of nCorV the best medicine is 'Thuja 30'.

The suggested dose for this medicine will be , once daily for 7 days, then
once a week for 3 weeks. This medicine is available at any Homeopathic
Pharmacy.

As Corona is a viral infection, and humans have no natural immunity against
viruses, our approach to the treatment will be on the basis of symptoms. We
have very good antiviral as well as medicines chosen according to symptoms.
We are very successful in the treatment of measles, chicken pox and swine
flu. This is very similar and can be very successfully handled with our
Protocols.

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Re: Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread David Bivins

Glad you're on the mend, neighbor!

David B also in Brooklyn

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:25 AM lambbo  wrote:

> I just tested positive for Coronavirus!
>
> Good news is I'm healthy (after flu-like symptoms that were no fun) and my
> baby daughter and wife (who is a CNM, NP and works at Mount Sinai West),
> are all fine and have not bad symptoms, and in fact we've done a great job
> quarantining, and *could *go out now via CDC guidelines, tho we want to
> be very careful.
>
> So, let it be know, comm
> On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 4:33:05 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Yes you posted this already. I'm in California, not Alabama, and I'm not
>> convinced a group ride of any distances from each other will be allowed. I
>> mean obviously it's hard to enforce and you may not get stopped, but it's
>> not in the spirit of what we're being asked to do here.
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Curtis McKenzie

Glad you are feeling better and your family is fine.

Curtis
El Cajon, CA

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 6:25 AM lambbo  wrote:

> I just tested positive for Coronavirus!
>
> Good news is I'm healthy (after flu-like symptoms that were no fun) and my
> baby daughter and wife (who is a CNM, NP and works at Mount Sinai West),
> are all fine and have not bad symptoms, and in fact we've done a great job
> quarantining, and *could *go out now via CDC guidelines, tho we want to
> be very careful.
>
> So, let it be know, comm
> On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 4:33:05 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Yes you posted this already. I'm in California, not Alabama, and I'm not
>> convinced a group ride of any distances from each other will be allowed. I
>> mean obviously it's hard to enforce and you may not get stopped, but it's
>> not in the spirit of what we're being asked to do here.
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Bill Lindsay

Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 6:25:07 AM UTC-7, lambbo wrote:
>
> I just tested positive for Coronavirus!  
>
> Good news is I'm healthy (after flu-like symptoms that were no fun) and my 
> baby daughter and wife (who is a CNM, NP and works at Mount Sinai West), 
> are all fine and have not bad symptoms, and in fact we've done a great job 
> quarantining, and *could *go out now via CDC guidelines, tho we want to 
> be very careful. 
>
> So, let it be know, comm 
> On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 4:33:05 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Yes you posted this already. I'm in California, not Alabama, and I'm not 
>> convinced a group ride of any distances from each other will be allowed. I 
>> mean obviously it's hard to enforce and you may not get stopped, but it's 
>> not in the spirit of what we're being asked to do here. 
>
>

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Re: Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread lambbo

I just tested positive for Coronavirus!  

Good news is I'm healthy (after flu-like symptoms that were no fun) and my 
baby daughter and wife (who is a CNM, NP and works at Mount Sinai West), 
are all fine and have not bad symptoms, and in fact we've done a great job 
quarantining, and *could *go out now via CDC guidelines, tho we want to be 
very careful. 

So, let it be know, comm 
On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 4:33:05 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Yes you posted this already. I'm in California, not Alabama, and I'm not 
> convinced a group ride of any distances from each other will be allowed. I 
> mean obviously it's hard to enforce and you may not get stopped, but it's 
> not in the spirit of what we're being asked to do here. 

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RE: Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Joe Bernard

Yes you posted this already. I'm in California, not Alabama, and I'm not 
convinced a group ride of any distances from each other will be allowed. I mean 
obviously it's hard to enforce and you may not get stopped, but it's not in the 
spirit of what we're being asked to do here. 

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RE: Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Bruce Herbitter

Alabama executive order limits gatherings INSIDE closed spaces at 25 and recommends no more than 10. On our club ride tonight, we had 7 riders, all properly spaced, no touching, spitting, coughing, etc, it was very enjoyable. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Joe BernardSent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 10:11 PMTo: RBW Owners BunchSubject: Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World In California - we were already under the Shelter In Place this week in Marin County - it means you can walk and bike alone, and drive to get groceries, gas, takeout food. I've been out there and there's a few cars and bikes around, but it's unusually quiet. What you don't want to do is get caught in packs of people, they'll give you a ticket for that. Now for the super bad part (like the dystopia I just described wasn't enough): Gov. Newsom's letter to the president says the state projects 56% of residents will have the virus in 8 weeks. That's 25.5 Million people. If you assume a mortality rate of 2%, which right now is a low estimate, that's 610k. In one state. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/6UcP-pX6JZ4/unsubscribe.To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/41c329c8-7acb-4ed8-8c2e-be1f22c4e9b0%40googlegroups.com.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Joe Bernard

Daniel, it's good to hear that's the "if we did nothing" number, although I 
suspect the eventual "we did something" number will still be harrowing. 

All, I have no interest in debates about homeopathy, I just know this: Right 
now we have a shockingly contagious virus that's killing people, including 
young people it wasn't supposed to kill. We need to try to stop the spread 
while developing a vaccine plus herd immunity. Until we get there our lives are 
going to be bombarded with this damn thing and it's going to take our economy 
with it. We're just going to have to fight it. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Eric G@rs

Patrick (Moore, not Deacon),

I agree with your assessment that “if there is anything unscientific, it's
blanket, unanalyzed statements about what is and what isn't science.” I
assume that you are referring to what I said about homeopathy given that
you make specific mention of it in your post. As I mentioned, the
fundamental idea of homeopathy is that a substance becomes stronger as it
becomes more dilute — often to a degree in which not even a single molecule
of that substance exists in the final preparation of the “medicine”. That
idea, to me, is implausible given what I think that I know about the
natural world. Lots of ideas that seem implausible turn out to be true, so
it is reasonable to require evidence to support my assertion that
homeopathy works for nothing other than placebo. I have no intention of
writing a treatise on the science of homeopathy to convince you, as many
others have already done so. There have been numerous clinical trials and
meta-analyses that examine the clinical effect of homeopathy which conclude
that there is no evidence that homeopathy is effective. I will refer you to
the report published by the National Health and Medical Research Council of
Australia to peruse at your leisure (linked below). I hope that nothing
that I said was in any way offensive. My re-reading of my post does not
sound like it to me, but I am open to the idea that I am not the best judge
of what is or is not offensive to others. In the absence of any rigorous
positive data on the efficacy of homeopathy, though, I was compelled to
offer a dissenting position on the subject on a public forum. You are
correct that I should have included at least one reference in my initial
post.

https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/sites/default/files/images/nhmrc-information-paper-effectiveness-of-homeopathy.pdf

Eric G@rs

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Eric G@rs

Patrick (Moore, not Deacon),

I have no intention of writing a treatise on the science of homeopathy to
convince you, though, as many others have already done so. There have been
numerous clinical trials and meta-analyses that examine the clinical effect
of homeopathy which conclude that there is no evidence that homeopathy is
effective. I will refer you to the report published by the National Health
and Medical Research Council of Australia to peruse at your leisure (linked
below). I hope that nothing that I said was in any way offensive. My
re-reading of my post does not sound like it to me, but I am open to the
idea that I am not the best judge of what is or is not offensive to others.
In the absence of any rigorous positive data on the efficacy of homeopathy,
though, I felt it necessary to offer a dissenting position on the subject
in a public forum. You are correct that I should have included at least one
reference in my initial post.

https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/sites/default/files/images/nhmrc-information-paper-effectiveness-of-homeopathy.pdf

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-20 Thread Daniel D.

A spokesperson for Newsom later told Politico that the 56 percent number 
reflects the infection rate if "mitigation efforts aren't taken into account."
https://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/california-coronavirus-numbers-newsom-trump-15144169.php
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 8:11:29 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
> In California - we were already under the Shelter In Place this week in Marin 
> County - it means you can walk and bike alone, and drive to get groceries, 
> gas, takeout food. I've been out there and there's a few cars and bikes 
> around, but it's unusually quiet. What you don't want to do is get caught in 
> packs of people, they'll give you a ticket for that.
> 
> Now for the super bad part (like the dystopia I just described wasn't 
> enough): Gov. Newsom's letter to the president says the state projects 56% of 
> residents will have the virus in 8 weeks. That's 25.5 Million people. If you 
> assume a mortality rate of 2%, which right now is a low estimate, that's 
> 610k. In one state.

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RE: Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Bruce Herbitter

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Joe Bernard

In California - we were already under the Shelter In Place this week in Marin 
County - it means you can walk and bike alone, and drive to get groceries, gas, 
takeout food. I've been out there and there's a few cars and bikes around, but 
it's unusually quiet. What you don't want to do is get caught in packs of 
people, they'll give you a ticket for that.

Now for the super bad part (like the dystopia I just described wasn't enough): 
Gov. Newsom's letter to the president says the state projects 56% of residents 
will have the virus in 8 weeks. That's 25.5 Million people. If you assume a 
mortality rate of 2%, which right now is a low estimate, that's 610k. In one 
state.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Addisonwilhite

I enjoyed a nice ride here in Reno today. Lots of families out at the parks 
with kids which seemed weird. Good to get out. Sorry no photos.  Rode one of my 
beautiful Della Santas.  Came home with a smile on my face. 

Addison 
RENO 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 19, 2020, at 7:43 PM, Eric Floden  wrote:
> 
> 
> We are not locked down in Vancouver BC, but we live on a well used bike route 
> (York Avenue). One of my pastimes is sitting on the balcony watching the 
> bikes go by. What fun! Great way to drink my coffee.
> 
> Anyway, in the last week, almost no group rides, certainly none greater than 
> say 4. However, quite a few kids and parents all on bikes. 
> 
> I am going out twice a day generally, and having a wonderful solitary time 
> out and about
> 
> Stay well
> 
> Eric F
> Vancouver
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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Addisonwilhite

I’m a rationalist, humanist, atheist, Buddhist, and find Deacon Patrick’s last 
response reflective and poignant.  Whatever faith we have or don’t have this is 
a time to not only think of others but “serve” them as well. We are in this 
together!  

Much respect and love to you all,
Addison
Reno 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 19, 2020, at 7:21 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> The mistake was mine. I never intended to stir up discord and apologize for 
> doing so. I bow out of this thread and topic and pray the healing balm of 
> peace may wrap each of us in the challenges we face, freeing us to serve 
> those around us. 
> 
> With abandon,
> Patrick
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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Eric Floden

We are not locked down in Vancouver BC, but we live on a well used bike
route (York Avenue). One of my pastimes is sitting on the balcony watching
the bikes go by. What fun! Great way to drink my coffee.

Anyway, in the last week, almost no group rides, certainly none greater
than say 4. However, quite a few kids and parents all on bikes.

I am going out twice a day generally, and having a wonderful solitary time
out and about

Stay well

Eric F
Vancouver

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Drw

So to move on... what does the stay at home thing mean for biking? Also weren’t 
you SF people already under this ordinance? Are people actually doing it? 
Unfortunately I don’t really see people in LA adhering to this without some 
sort of repercussions for not.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

The mistake was mine. I never intended to stir up discord and apologize for 
doing so. I bow out of this thread and topic and pray the healing balm of 
peace may wrap each of us in the challenges we face, freeing us to serve 
those around us. 

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Joe Bernard

Meanwhile California is in a statewide Stay At Home, whatever-the-hell THAT 
means. So yay. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread DHans

Thank you for posting this Patrick Moore. It is tiring hearing cliches such as 
climate denier and science denier used to ridicule a person who has obviously 
given these topics much thought, right or wrong they may be. And, to also 
ridicule their religion in one post and then in the next post of apology say 
they will pray for all of us is so hypocritical as to be laughable. 
Doug

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Patrick Moore

Those of you making blanket statements about what science is or is not, or
what is scientific and what is not, please post your probative research,
including methodology and procedures. Also clearly isolate and state your
assumed premises. Or post research by others who have done this.

If there is anything unscientific, it's blanket, unanalyzed statements
about what is and what isn't science.

I know something about the history and philosophy of science, having
studied the genesis of modern science from the pre-Socratics through Hook,
Boyle, Lavoisier, Galileo Descartes, and Newton, all the way to quantum
theory and relativity. I've read the big 19th and 20th century names in the
analysis of scientific theories, scientific methodology, and the philosophy
of mathematical science: Bernard, Duhem, Whitehead, Poincare, Popper,
Heisenberg, Kuhn, Nagel, Medawar, and more. None of these thinkers made
broad assertions about science without proof; and the great scientists
themselves have been very aware of the "artistic" or "creative" side of
scientific theory, the narrow scope of the scientific method, particularly
analysis by mathemetics, ie by measurment, and to the possibility of
"non-scientific" truth "outside" the restricted sphere of scientific
competence. Read Whitehead.

Homeopathy may be moonshine or it may be true or it may be in between; the
question remains until someone shows rigorous evidence commensurate with a
related and clearly formulated hypothesis to be tested.
--

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

I withdraw. Enjoy the ride.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread John Phillips

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 9:58:51 AM UTC-7, ted wrote:
>
> I think it is more incumbent on the rest of us to evaluate  dp’s 
> reliability as a source for such guidance than it is for him to self censor 
> his views. 

   You are right, and I humbly apologize to the group for asking Patrick 
and anyone else to self-censor and surrender their 1st Amendment rights.

   I meant my comments to be taken in the spirit of, "I'm sorry, but you 
are dead wrong: using friction paste to fit 25.4mm handlebars in a 26mm 
stem could result in serious injury or worse."  I failed miserably, and 
again, I humbly apologize to everyone on the forum, especially you Patrick.

Please ride or walk or whatever carefully. I am still riding alone, but 
very carefully, having had two near accidents this week alone with what 
appeared to be panicking or hysterical car drivers.

I pray everyone here and your families and loved ones and everyone else 
stasy safe & healthy,

John Phillips

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread lambbo

Deacon Patrick, 

With all due respect, the United Kingdom's high court ordered NHS to stop 
funding Homeopathy in 2017 
(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/06/05/high-court-backs-nhs-decision-stop-funding-homeopathy/)

They did this because the fact that it is ineffective makes it dangerous. 

Please protect your family, do not rely on non-medical remedies in this 
very serious situation.   

I am biased because my wife is a Nurse-Practitioner Midwife, who works at a 
Hospital in NYC, my brother is a top chemist at a major pharmaceutical, and 
his wife is an MD at UCSF where they are specifically treating COVID cases. 
 

With love, 
Antone

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 8:07:39 AM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Och, Drw! That's frustrating. Here's how my kids, ages 7-19, would respond 
> to me if I did something like that. "Uh, Papa? Part to whole." Part to 
> whole is a fallacy of logic. Just like now is a great time to ride, it's 
> also a great time to read. Here is the book we use to homeschool our kids 
> on the fallacies of logic. 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fallacy-Detective-Thirty-Eight-Recognize-Reasoning-ebook-dp-B006M8OZV4/dp/B006M8OZV4/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8==1584617368
>
> What is strange to me is that some folks put me into the anti-science 
> group because I want science to actually be science, and adhere to logic 
> and reason. Much of currrent "scientific" conclusions are based on 
> presumptions, some named, others not. Those presumptions may be wrong. 
> Often prove to be. Naming that and asking questions about the "science" is 
> not being anti-science, it is being proper science. Science should stand up 
> to rigorous debate and be repeatable. So, to apply this to the climate 
> change, the world has always experienced climate change, often greater and 
> faster than what we currently are experiencing, so the science tells us. 
> Science also tells us that human activities change, at least in some way, 
> various pieces of the climate engine (an engine we do not, your Dad is 
> correct, understand at all well yet), though. what effect they have on the 
> whole is not yet understood. Now the logic, rather than science kicks in 
> (or not). What cause, today's change? If some percentage of climate change 
> is human caused, what is the solution? How do we know, given we don't 
> understand the big climate engine, we don't cause unintended consequences, 
> much as happened in the 90's with the environmental cry to save the planet 
> by not using paper bags and switching to plastic. Oops. That's not 
> anti-science or science-skeptical. That's reasonable. Urging people to slow 
> down, and take time to know what we know and also name what we don't know 
> is essential to applying science in a way that helps rather than harms, 
> that upholds human dignity rather than inadvertently undermining it.
>
> The challenge with COVID19, as may well be the case with climate change, 
> is the possibility we need to act now to prevent greater harm later. Maybe. 
> But there are other approaches (Great Britain's for example, is to allow 
> exposure and treat the sick with a war time mentality, and use homeopathy 
> (because it is part of their healthcare system) and thus rapidly reach herd 
> immunity for a virus that appears to be here for the long term. That 
> approach is challenging the underlying presumption that we are 
> technologically advanced and can solve this better than our body's built in 
> systems. Maybe. Maybe attempting that will cost a lot and leave us more 
> vulnerable when it turns out we aren't as advanced as we hoped, and a good 
> ol' "chicken pox party" is really the best of the not-so-great options. 
> That is part of science.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Wednesday, March 18, 2020 at 11:33:16 PM UTC-6, Drw wrote:
>>
>> I’d classify members of my family as science-skeptical, like a number of 
>> the higher up posts, so I am not As deeply offended as others, but I’m 
>> growing more and more curious. I would ask what anyone who resists doing 
>> what every scientist and expert is suggesting expects to gain from such 
>> resistance. 
>>
>> My father found a small flaw on a graph today and used that as evidence 
>> that “nobody really knows what’s going on”. That seems to be the line on a 
>> bunch of stuff. Climate change- “nobody knows everything/the jury is out.”. 
>> I don’t understand the need to shove these tiny wedges into what we do 
>> know. Who does it help? What does anyone gain? What do you personally gain 
>> by downplaying the information of people who know more than you on a 
>> certain subject? Where does the need to do that downplaying come from? 
>>
>> Seems like the potential damage of using irrelevant info to dismiss 
>> relevant info is...risky. 
>>
>> The conversation I had today was frustrating. Excuse the venting. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Robert Tilley

I've been riding "seriously" now for 35 years and I have never been hospitalized for anything yet. I also hike, snowboard, paddleboard, etc. and haven't had an injury yet that has caused me to go in. I have crashed and been hit by cars but I was lucky and got out with no serious injuries. The car collision was high speed and I flew over the hood but I got out of it with only some serious bruising and I was at work the next day. But I was young...Now my rides are primarily utility rides for getting stuff done. I have a bike path near my home which allows me to get to most places I need to get to without dealing with traffic. So, based on my past history along with my low risk routes, I don't see an issue with me going out and riding as normal. I won't be mountain biking for a while even though I've never had an issue doing it. There is a greater chance of getting hurt so I won't risk that yet.Robert TilleySan Diego, CA Sent from my BlackBerry - the most secure mobile device From: tapebu...@gmail.comSent: March 19, 2020 6:37 AMTo: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comReply-to: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comSubject: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World This thought is weighing on me as well. I ride solo >95% of the time. Two very old and very dear friends wanted to get together for a leisurely ride, and I begged off for this reason. It's an extremely low risk, but if one of us crashes, and needs to go to the ER, I just don't want to be a burden to the system. I can reduce that already small likelihood by not riding. As a result, the two of them went for a walk instead. I don't know whether to feel good about it because I marginally decreased risk, or bad about it, because I threw a wet blanket on dear friends wanting a tiny amount of human interaction on our bikes. Bill LindsayEl Cerrito, CAOn Wednesday, March 18, 2020 at 3:54:57 PM UTC-7, Scott Calhoun wrote:There is another perspective on this from Spain. A doctor there (who is also a cyclist) made a video pleading with cyclists not to ride at all in this point in this point in the outbreak as there are simply not doctors and space to handle cycling accidents on top of the virus patients. My daughter lives in Madrid and she and her riding friends are only riding home trainers right now.I'm not suggesting we are there yet, or telling others what to do, but I'm personally only doing solo rides right now. The majority of cycling accidents I've been involved in and know of occured on group rides. Riding solo is risk mitigation. Keeping out of the emergency room helps everybody at least as much as social distancing. Scott CalhounTucson, AZOn Monday, March 16, 2020 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:People really appreciate the bell on the trail, even more than the usual gushing. Lots of great interactions from a few steps back, as folks release the tensions they have. Interactions are easier now that everyone social distances (which I've long tried to do because of the scents of most peoples laundry, shampoo etc, let alone the effect of unexpected hand on the shoulder. Sardonic grin.).I saw the Bay area is instructed to shelter in place save for food, emergencies, care of others, and exercise. Time for some long rides to the middle of nowhere, aye?With abandon,Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY

Well Said Ted


On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 12:58:51 PM UTC-4, ted wrote:
>
> I think it is more incumbent on the rest of us to evaluate  dp’s 
> reliability as a source for such guidance than it is for him to self censor 
> his views. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Bill Lindsay

Steve asked:

"Do you stay out of the bathtub for the same reason? "

Great question. I probably have averaged 1 or 2 baths per year over the 
last 2 decades, but that's mainly for water conservation reasons. I 
probably take about 5 showers per week on average. I confess that fear of 
injury does not usually influence whether or not I take a shower. 

In the current situation, I am very concerned about the capabilities of the 
healthcare infrastructure. There is no doubt in my mind that somebody will 
die in the next few weeks purely because they had a treatable condition but 
the healthcare system couldn't provide that treatment. That will either be 
from there being too few healthy front line caregivers, or too many 
patients, or too little critical medical supplies. Anything I can do to 
reduce the likelihood of me grabbing some of those constrained resources 
seems like a good citizen thing to do. I have to balance that against my 
own life, as does every adult. It would not be reasonable to put myself 
into a medical induced coma for 6 months to ride it out. Life is still out 
there to be lived. I'll probably think it over on a slow solo bicycle ride. 
The sun is out today and the fresh air would do me good. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 6:55:35 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 3/19/20 9:37 AM, Bill Lindsay wrote: 
> > This thought is weighing on me as well. I ride solo >95% of the time. 
> > Two very old and very dear friends wanted to get together for a 
> > leisurely ride, and I begged off for this reason. It's an extremely 
> > low risk, but if one of us crashes, and needs to go to the ER, I just 
> > don't want to be a burden to the system. I can reduce that already 
> > small likelihood by not riding. As a result, the two of them went for 
> > a walk instead. I don't know whether to feel good about it because I 
> > marginally decreased risk, or bad about it, because I threw a wet 
> > blanket on dear friends wanting a tiny amount of human interaction on 
> > our bikes. 
> > 
>
> Do you stay out of the bathtub for the same reason? 
>
> Don't think going for a walk is all that safe.  Walk, trip, fall and 
> break bones happens all the time. 
>
>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar 
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread ted

I think it is more incumbent on the rest of us to evaluate  dp’s reliability as 
a source for such guidance than it is for him to self censor his views. 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Eric G@rs

Homeopathy is completely anti-science. It doesn’t really take much beyond 
rational thought to debunk the idea that diluting a drug makes it stronger, but 
there are loads of studies that do just that. Many alternative medicine 
modalities work for various ailments, but homeopathy works for nothing other 
than placebo effect. 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread John Phillips

I'm sorry Patrick, but you seem to have cherry picked your facts:

from Bloomberg News:

Why Boris Johnson Reversed Britain’s Virus Response
Excerpt:

"With no mitigation measures at all, the Imperial Team said they would
expect 80% of the population to be infected, resulting in 510,000 deaths in
the U.K. and 2.2 million in the U.S. — and that’s without accounting for
the impact on mortality of health systems getting overwhelmed. By the
second week in April, the critical care capacity of Britain’s National
Health Service would be overwhelmed."

Patrick, please, please stop spreading inaccuracies. People are getting
seriously sick & dying. 40% of hospitalized COVID-19 patients are 20-54
years of age. These are the people in need of respirators and serious
interventions to keep them alive. Many survivors are found to have
permanent lung scarring, translation: life long shortness of breath. Our
overwhelmed hospitals are running out of supplies, This is threatening the
ability to treat strokes, heart attacks, pregnancies & child birth, and
trauma, and all the "normal" health emergencies in our lives. I would hope
someone with multiple brain traumas would appreciate the need for others to
be able to receive these treatments if needed.

My wife treats the medical professionals on the frontline of this pandemic.
Our system is already overwhelmed. Our doctors and nurses are getting sick
themselves, are becoming psychologically overwhelmed, and many have died
trying to save their patients. If you want an example of Christian
sacrifice, that's it right there.

Patrick, please find the Christian humility to admit you are not a medical
professional. Please! Enough is enough.

John Phillips

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Bill Lindsay

Haha.  Good one.  I'm wearing my helmet right now while typing.  Can I 
remove it safely?  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 8:00:01 AM UTC-7, William deRosset wrote:
>
> Dear Bill,
>
>
> Don't ride drunk, paceline, or sprint for town limit signs and the bike 
> ride is less likely to result in injury or death than hiding in your home, 
> assuming you shower from time to time.
>
> Best Regards,
> Will
> William M deRosset
> Fort Collins CO USA
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread William deRosset

Dear Bill,


Don't ride drunk, paceline, or sprint for town limit signs and the bike ride is 
less likely to result in injury or death than hiding in your home, assuming you 
shower from time to time.

Best Regards,
Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Steve Palincsar




On 3/19/20 9:37 AM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
This thought is weighing on me as well. I ride solo >95% of the time. 
Two very old and very dear friends wanted to get together for a 
leisurely ride, and I begged off for this reason. It's an extremely 
low risk, but if one of us crashes, and needs to go to the ER, I just 
don't want to be a burden to the system. I can reduce that already 
small likelihood by not riding. As a result, the two of them went for 
a walk instead. I don't know whether to feel good about it because I 
marginally decreased risk, or bad about it, because I threw a wet 
blanket on dear friends wanting a tiny amount of human interaction on 
our bikes.




Do you stay out of the bathtub for the same reason?

Don't think going for a walk is all that safe.  Walk, trip, fall and 
break bones happens all the time.



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Bill Lindsay

This thought is weighing on me as well. I ride solo >95% of the time. Two 
very old and very dear friends wanted to get together for a leisurely ride, 
and I begged off for this reason. It's an extremely low risk, but if one of 
us crashes, and needs to go to the ER, I just don't want to be a burden to 
the system. I can reduce that already small likelihood by not riding. As a 
result, the two of them went for a walk instead. I don't know whether to 
feel good about it because I marginally decreased risk, or bad about it, 
because I threw a wet blanket on dear friends wanting a tiny amount of 
human interaction on our bikes. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, March 18, 2020 at 3:54:57 PM UTC-7, Scott Calhoun wrote:
>
> There is another perspective on this from Spain. A doctor there (who is 
> also a cyclist) made a video pleading with cyclists not to ride at all in 
> this point in this point in the outbreak as there are simply not doctors 
> and space to handle cycling accidents on top of the virus patients. My 
> daughter lives in Madrid and she and her riding friends are only riding 
> home trainers right now.
>
> I'm not suggesting we are there yet, or telling others what to do, but I'm 
> personally only doing solo rides right now. The majority of cycling 
> accidents I've been involved in and know of occured on group rides. Riding 
> solo is risk mitigation. Keeping out of the emergency room helps everybody 
> at least as much as social distancing. 
>
> Scott Calhoun
> Tucson, AZ
>
> On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> People really appreciate the bell on the trail, even more than the usual 
>> gushing. Lots of great interactions from a few steps back, as folks release 
>> the tensions they have. Interactions are easier now that everyone social 
>> distances (which I've long tried to do because of the scents of most 
>> peoples laundry, shampoo etc, let alone the effect of unexpected hand on 
>> the shoulder. Sardonic grin.).
>>
>> I saw the Bay area is instructed to shelter in place save for food, 
>> emergencies, care of others, and exercise. Time for some long rides to the 
>> middle of nowhere, aye?
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Och, Drw! That's frustrating. Here's how my kids, ages 7-19, would respond 
to me if I did something like that. "Uh, Papa? Part to whole." Part to 
whole is a fallacy of logic. Just like now is a great time to ride, it's 
also a great time to read. Here is the book we use to homeschool our kids 
on the fallacies of logic. 
https://www.amazon.com/Fallacy-Detective-Thirty-Eight-Recognize-Reasoning-ebook-dp-B006M8OZV4/dp/B006M8OZV4/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8==1584617368

What is strange to me is that some folks put me into the anti-science group 
because I want science to actually be science, and adhere to logic and 
reason. Much of currrent "scientific" conclusions are based on 
presumptions, some named, others not. Those presumptions may be wrong. 
Often prove to be. Naming that and asking questions about the "science" is 
not being anti-science, it is being proper science. Science should stand up 
to rigorous debate and be repeatable. So, to apply this to the climate 
change, the world has always experienced climate change, often greater and 
faster than what we currently are experiencing, so the science tells us. 
Science also tells us that human activities change, at least in some way, 
various pieces of the climate engine (an engine we do not, your Dad is 
correct, understand at all well yet), though. what effect they have on the 
whole is not yet understood. Now the logic, rather than science kicks in 
(or not). What cause, today's change? If some percentage of climate change 
is human caused, what is the solution? How do we know, given we don't 
understand the big climate engine, we don't cause unintended consequences, 
much as happened in the 90's with the environmental cry to save the planet 
by not using paper bags and switching to plastic. Oops. That's not 
anti-science or science-skeptical. That's reasonable. Urging people to slow 
down, and take time to know what we know and also name what we don't know 
is essential to applying science in a way that helps rather than harms, 
that upholds human dignity rather than inadvertently undermining it.

The challenge with COVID19, as may well be the case with climate change, is 
the possibility we need to act now to prevent greater harm later. Maybe. 
But there are other approaches (Great Britain's for example, is to allow 
exposure and treat the sick with a war time mentality, and use homeopathy 
(because it is part of their healthcare system) and thus rapidly reach herd 
immunity for a virus that appears to be here for the long term. That 
approach is challenging the underlying presumption that we are 
technologically advanced and can solve this better than our body's built in 
systems. Maybe. Maybe attempting that will cost a lot and leave us more 
vulnerable when it turns out we aren't as advanced as we hoped, and a good 
ol' "chicken pox party" is really the best of the not-so-great options. 
That is part of science.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, March 18, 2020 at 11:33:16 PM UTC-6, Drw wrote:
>
> I’d classify members of my family as science-skeptical, like a number of 
> the higher up posts, so I am not As deeply offended as others, but I’m 
> growing more and more curious. I would ask what anyone who resists doing 
> what every scientist and expert is suggesting expects to gain from such 
> resistance. 
>
> My father found a small flaw on a graph today and used that as evidence 
> that “nobody really knows what’s going on”. That seems to be the line on a 
> bunch of stuff. Climate change- “nobody knows everything/the jury is out.”. 
> I don’t understand the need to shove these tiny wedges into what we do 
> know. Who does it help? What does anyone gain? What do you personally gain 
> by downplaying the information of people who know more than you on a 
> certain subject? Where does the need to do that downplaying come from? 
>
> Seems like the potential damage of using irrelevant info to dismiss 
> relevant info is...risky. 
>
> The conversation I had today was frustrating. Excuse the venting. 

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RE: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Joe Bernard

The mortality rate should go down as more people are tested and we get a more 
realistic figure of how many have it and are surviving. But even a 2% mortality 
rate for a virus this monstrously contagious..well..I hoped I would never see 
this day...  

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RE: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-19 Thread Bruce Herbitter

I look at the total # of resolved cases (either died or recovered) which gives a mortality rate currently around 10%. About that same as SARS which is also a Corona Virus but less contagious. Expectation is that 40% - 70% of the US population will get it at some point.  Unfortunately, we have no idea how accurate any of the data is right now.  Kind of sobering.  (8,411 deaths and 84,121 recoveries as I type this) Bruce Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Nick PayneSent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 10:52 PMTo: RBW Owners BunchSubject: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World Present US population ~330 million. On Johns Hopkins figures (https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6) so far from COVID-19 there are ~8800 deaths from 218000 cases - that's about 4% death rate. If half the US population gets this in the next 12 months, which is a reasonable ballpark figure given that there is no immunity and no vaccine, even if we say that the death rate is really only 2%, because a lot of mild cases have been missed, you still have 330,000,000 / 2 * 0.02 = 3.3 million deaths... Extrapolate that to the world population, and you get about 60 million dead - pretty much the same as the Spanish flu in 1918-20.On Sunday, 15 March 2020 08:27:03 UTC+11, Deacon Patrick wrote:In 2017-18 there were 80,000 deaths from the flu in the US. 900,000 people went to the hospital because of the flu. Per: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/last-years-flu-broke-records-for-deaths-and-illnesses-new-cdc-numbers-show/2018/09/26/97cb43fc-c0ed-11e8-90c9-23f963eea204_story.html Make of that what you will.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/6UcP-pX6JZ4/unsubscribe.To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2052da13-3c25-4459-9ccc-0ee5c66b701a%40googlegroups.com. 



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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-18 Thread Drw

I’d classify members of my family as science-skeptical, like a number of the 
higher up posts, so I am not As deeply offended as others, but I’m growing more 
and more curious. I would ask what anyone who resists doing what every 
scientist and expert is suggesting expects to gain from such resistance. 

My father found a small flaw on a graph today and used that as evidence that 
“nobody really knows what’s going on”. That seems to be the line on a bunch of 
stuff. Climate change- “nobody knows everything/the jury is out.”. I don’t 
understand the need to shove these tiny wedges into what we do know. Who does 
it help? What does anyone gain? What do you personally gain by downplaying the 
information of people who know more than you on a certain subject? Where does 
the need to do that downplaying come from?

Seems like the potential damage of using irrelevant info to dismiss relevant 
info is...risky. 

The conversation I had today was frustrating. Excuse the venting. 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-18 Thread Joe Bernard

I wish I could could call those numbers alarmist, but I'm seeing NO evidence 
that we aren't in for a truly world-changing event over the next year. Like a 
'Morgan Freeman in Deep Impact speech' event, "Life will go on. We will 
prevail." 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-18 Thread Nick Payne

Present US population ~330 million. On Johns Hopkins figures 
(https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6)

so far from COVID-19 there are ~8800 deaths from 218000 cases - that's 
about 4% death rate. If half the US population gets this in the next 12 
months, which is a reasonable ballpark figure given that there is no 
immunity and no vaccine, even if we say that the death rate is really only 
2%, because a lot of mild cases have been missed, you still have 
330,000,000 / 2 * 0.02 = 3.3 million deaths... Extrapolate that to the 
world population, and you get about 60 million dead - pretty much the same 
as the Spanish flu in 1918-20.

On Sunday, 15 March 2020 08:27:03 UTC+11, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> In 2017-18 there were 80,000 deaths from the flu in the US. 900,000 people 
> went to the hospital because of the flu. Per: 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/last-years-flu-broke-records-for-deaths-and-illnesses-new-cdc-numbers-show/2018/09/26/97cb43fc-c0ed-11e8-90c9-23f963eea204_story.html
>
> Make of that what you will.
>

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-18 Thread Scott Calhoun

There is another perspective on this from Spain. A doctor there (who is 
also a cyclist) made a video pleading with cyclists not to ride at all in 
this point in this point in the outbreak as there are simply not doctors 
and space to handle cycling accidents on top of the virus patients. My 
daughter lives in Madrid and she and her riding friends are only riding 
home trainers right now.

I'm not suggesting we are there yet, or telling others what to do, but I'm 
personally only doing solo rides right now. The majority of cycling 
accidents I've been involved in and know of occured on group rides. Riding 
solo is risk mitigation. Keeping out of the emergency room helps everybody 
at least as much as social distancing. 

Scott Calhoun
Tucson, AZ

On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> People really appreciate the bell on the trail, even more than the usual 
> gushing. Lots of great interactions from a few steps back, as folks release 
> the tensions they have. Interactions are easier now that everyone social 
> distances (which I've long tried to do because of the scents of most 
> peoples laundry, shampoo etc, let alone the effect of unexpected hand on 
> the shoulder. Sardonic grin.).
>
> I saw the Bay area is instructed to shelter in place save for food, 
> emergencies, care of others, and exercise. Time for some long rides to the 
> middle of nowhere, aye?
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick 
>

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

People really appreciate the bell on the trail, even more than the usual 
gushing. Lots of great interactions from a few steps back, as folks release 
the tensions they have. Interactions are easier now that everyone social 
distances (which I've long tried to do because of the scents of most 
peoples laundry, shampoo etc, let alone the effect of unexpected hand on 
the shoulder. Sardonic grin.).

I saw the Bay area is instructed to shelter in place save for food, 
emergencies, care of others, and exercise. Time for some long rides to the 
middle of nowhere, aye?

With abandon,
Patrick 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread William deRosset

Dear Patrick

True re: 2017-2018 flu season. Also, our novel coronavirus is more 
infectious, nobody has partial immunity (yet), and the death/complication 
rate is rather higher than it was for the flu strain you cite.

The point of all the social distancing, closing schools etc is to slow the 
wave of infection, reduce the peak numbers, so that emergency/medical 
services are available to the ~20% of cases that require medical assistance 
vs totally overwhelming the available services.

A personal note: I was briefly on oxygen in early 2018 thanks to that damn 
flu and a subsequent viral pneumonia. It ruined my riding season that year, 
and I still have respiratory deficits associated with it. Not recommended.

Best Regards,

Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 3:27:03 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> In 2017-18 there were 80,000 deaths from the flu in the US. 900,000 people 
> went to the hospital because of the flu. Per: 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/last-years-flu-broke-records-for-deaths-and-illnesses-new-cdc-numbers-show/2018/09/26/97cb43fc-c0ed-11e8-90c9-23f963eea204_story.html
>
> Make of that what you will.
>
> Still riding with abandon,
> Patrick
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread Bill Lindsay

For those who don't like to click on links to articles, the Bicycling 
Magazine article linked in this post interviews a doctor who recommends 
that solo-riding is the safest course of action.  It also says being 
outdoors by yourself is good for you and also makes clear that UV exposure 
kills the virus so most outdoor surfaces are probably virus free.  The 
oft-repeated warning that bears repeating is that we don't know how long 
somebody can be contagious prior to that person being symptomatic.  I 
already was pretty good about laundering my gloves, but these days, I'm 
washing my gloves and bandannas immediately after every ride.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 4:18:02 AM UTC-7, Fullylugged wrote:
>
> As a RUSA RBA, my events are still on, and I have reminded riders about 
> social distance, no snot rockets, don't come if you have a cough or are 
> sneezing etc.  As ride committee chair for our local bike club, our rides 
> are still on, same rules.  The # of riders is not large on any given 
> outing. We did postpone all club meetings, where groups of people would be 
> sitting in a closed space together. Bicycling Magazine had some input on 
> riding in the current situation which may be of interest:
> https://www.bicycling.com/news/a31469228/cycling-during-coronavirus/ 
>
> The science of Covid-19 is incomplete, even as researchers in many places 
> rush to gain traction in this area. I track the daily case #s (
> https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6)
>  
> and while the new case curve has flattened in China, it is climbing 
> elsewhere. The current data shows a much more lethal disease than 
> influenza, and less so than SARS (also a corona virus family disease) but 
> more contagious than either. All the public data is also incomplete because 
> testing is far from universal. As I write this for example, 7.7% of the 
> resolved cases resulted in death. If you are not exposed to the virus, you 
> won't get sick with it. Pretty simple. If you have the virus, and you don't 
> expose anyone else, they won't get sick either. Scientists and 
> non-scientists can agree on that much. Stockpiles of toilet paper will not 
> help. Avoiding panic will help. The CDC guidelines are helpful and we 
> should pay attention. The more we curtail our exposure, remember to wash 
> our hands and not touch our faces after touching something else, the less 
> Covid-19 will spread. 
>
> Repeating false but inflammatory FaceBook memes or trying to make other 
> non-related philosophical/political points is counter productive.  The 
> virus doesn't care what your politics, social status, religion, or anything 
> else is.  Working in coordination will be more helpful than bickering about 
> it. 
>
> Tailwinds! 
>
> Bruce 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread Garth

 I was thinking the same thing of you Patrick.  I appreciate everyone  
all of this . I appreciate LIFE and all of LIFE's Aliveness  which 
is as much "us"... as "we" LIFE .   

This comes to mind about dis-agreement, and how that simply never happens 
in reality.  Think about about  you can't dis-agree without present 
agreement. There's no negating what is.  

"Distance"  , a separation would require the claimant to be the very place 
the claim of separation claims a departure from. 

For a flawed being to exist here, anywhere in all of Existence  .that 
too would identify Perfection/Presence at hand  from which the claim 
claims capability of departure from.  Just where would that ability, power 
come from ?  Again , it's like a repeating loop of no-can-do.  

There is no place like Home ... ever at hand ... ever present . and 
this is it.  

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 7:15:30 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Garth -- I appreciate your good nature.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Shall we virtual pace line in a museum hop and discuss art? I'm partial to 
the classics. 
https://www.travelandleisure.com/attractions/museums-galleries/museums-with-virtual-tours

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Jan's piece is well done, and puts it all in perspective with reference to 
cycling limitations during WWII. 
https://www.renehersecycles.com/adjusting-to-new-realities/

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread Fullylugged

As a RUSA RBA, my events are still on, and I have reminded riders about social
distance, no snot rockets, don't come if you have a cough or are sneezing etc.
As ride committee chair for our local bike club, our rides are still on, same
rules. The # of riders is not large on any given outing. We did postpone all
club meetings, where groups of people would be sitting in a closed space
together. Bicycling Magazine had some input on riding in the current situation
which may be of interest:
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a31469228/cycling-during-coronavirus/

The science of Covid-19 is incomplete, even as researchers in many places rush
to gain traction in this area. I track the daily case #s
(https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6)
and while the new case curve has flattened in China, it is climbing elsewhere.
The current data shows a much more lethal disease than influenza, and less so
than SARS (also a corona virus family disease) but more contagious than either.
All the public data is also incomplete because testing is far from universal.
As I write this for example, 7.7% of the resolved cases resulted in death. If
you are not exposed to the virus, you won't get sick with it. Pretty simple. If
you have the virus, and you don't expose anyone else, they won't get sick
either. Scientists and non-scientists can agree on that much. Stockpiles of
toilet paper will not help. Avoiding panic will help. The CDC guidelines are
helpful and we should pay attention. The more we curtail our exposure, remember
to wash our hands and not touch our faces after touching something else, the
less Covid-19 will spread.

Repeating false but inflammatory FaceBook memes or trying to make other
non-related philosophical/political points is counter productive. The virus
doesn't care what your politics, social status, religion, or anything else is.
Working in coordination will be more helpful than bickering about it.

Tailwinds!

Bruce

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread Garth

  
(  (   (   smiling   )   )   )  

We're all kinda just looking out for our friends after all, like Sid the 
Science Kid   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa_cIOFfqrQ

And a Barnyard Boogieing with the Muppets  you just can't stand still 
! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZI8xgMiVyY

Wonderful Elmo   it's time for a bedtime lullaby with Andrea   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BDVvB7Xx1w



On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 7:07:03 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> You know, we just need all of us. That’s what I’m going with from now on.
>
> Just got word Nevada has no school until middle of April at least. We’re 
> grounded these days, I imagine we’ll all be ”seeing” each other a bit more 
> here. Like family!
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread Joe Bernard

The trick here - which I've tried to impress on the group a couple times - is 
to focus on not doing stupid stuff to spread the virus. Honestly I don't care 
what your personal thoughts on science are as long as you treat this thing like 
it's bad and stay away from people, especially crowds of people. 

There's no point in going back over the thread to figure out who's "right" and 
who's "wrong", we're wasting our lives on this madness. Covid-19 is here, it's 
bad, we don't know how bad yet, we don't have a vaccine, we don't have enough 
tests, we need to flatten the curve. Let's flatten the curve. 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-16 Thread Kellen Scott


As a healthcare worker myself along with a partner who also works in the 
healthcare field, I agree with what Justin has said. 
This group is great for lurking people who spend far too much money and 
time on bikes as opposed to just riding them.
However, If people are too ignorant to take the necessary precautions of 
social distancing that would keep their community safe then they really do 
need to grow up and learn to make short-term sacrifices for the greater 
good. Just this weekend alone the Urgent Care center in Santa Cruz, CA has 
lost 2 doctors, 4 nurses and 5 medical assistants all due to being 
symptomatic. They most likely have COVID-19 but do not know for sure 
because they are still processing tests from last Wednesday. 

Please just have some humility and only go out if you need to so that our 
healthcare system does not get overwhelmed and results in ultimatums 
between who to keep alive as medical supplies are extremely limited. 

Kellen S.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread j.schwartz

Thanks Justin
totally agree 
This group needs to stay in it's lane or it's really not worth being a part 
of.





On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 8:16:07 PM UTC-4, Justin, Oakland wrote:
>
> As someone who has two loved ones on the front lines and another at high 
> risk all of this anti-science dismissal confirms my choice to step away 
> from this group as a contributing member. 
>
> It’s fucking gross, dangerous and will potentially have seriously damaging 
> impacts on people. 
>
> Grow up. 
>
> -Justin

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread masmojo

As chance would have it; I lost my job just as this was starting to blow 
up, but I can't breath easy even though the kids are out of school because 
my wife is a nurse. :-(

As an aside (and qualifying it with a disclaimer, because I am not a 
medical professional) I *THINK* this YouTube channel is VERY good!!  Watch 
it for a little while and you quickly figure out this guy knows his Sh*t!!!
 https://youtu.be/vE4_LsftNKM

I recommend going back to at least episode #30, then watch through to today.

Me thinks the Italians could put some of this information to good use!?

Regarding group rides, I used to try and go on a ride at my local shop 
(before it closed) and as much as I enjoyed it, what I discovered was that 
sometimes I had to bail out early & go home and when that happened I almost 
always enjoyed riding by myself just as much!

Indeed, I enjoy riding by myself probably too much! :-O  

So, Social Distancing is pretty much normal for me! ;-)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Jay Lonner

My wife and I are both hospital-based physicians in northwest Washington 
state so we are very much on the front lines of  this. I have also noticed 
plenty of anti-science in this thread, but have resisted (and will continue 
to resist) calling it out because a listserv dedicated to Rivendell 
bicycles and adjacent topics is the wrong place to discuss appropriate 
infection control measures for the COVID-19 pandemic. There are many 
excellent and easy to find online resources that are much better suited for 
this purpose, which I strongly encourage everyone to consult for an 
unbiased scientific perspective.

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 6:04:38 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Again, anti-science? Please, help me understand what this means and where 
> it appears in this conversation. Please, be specific.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 6:57:29 PM UTC-6, Daniel M wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for calling it out, Justin. 
>>
>> It's insidious and it's dangerous.
>>
>> Daniel M
>> Berkeley, CA
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Joe Bernard

The answer to the OP's question is riding in groups with decent distance yes, 
pacelines no 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Again, anti-science? Please, help me understand what this means and where 
it appears in this conversation. Please, be specific.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 6:57:29 PM UTC-6, Daniel M wrote:
>
> Thank you for calling it out, Justin. 
>
> It's insidious and it's dangerous.
>
> Daniel M
> Berkeley, CA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Daniel M

Thank you for calling it out, Justin. 

It's insidious and it's dangerous.

Daniel M
Berkeley, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Who here has voiced anything anti-science, Justin?

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 6:16:07 PM UTC-6, Justin, Oakland wrote:
>
> As someone who has two loved ones on the front lines and another at high 
> risk all of this anti-science dismissal confirms my choice to step away 
> from this group as a contributing member. 
>
> It’s fucking gross, dangerous and will potentially have seriously damaging 
> impacts on people. 
>
> Grow up. 
>
> -Justin

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Justin, Oakland

As someone who has two loved ones on the front lines and another at high risk 
all of this anti-science dismissal confirms my choice to step away from this 
group as a contributing member. 

It’s fucking gross, dangerous and will potentially have seriously damaging 
impacts on people. 

Grow up.

-Justin

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

We do need all of us, in humble kindness. The world is experiencing 
something unprecedented, both in the rapidly spreading new coronavirus and 
the more rapidly spreading virus of fear. That we may the better apply 
ourselves to addressing the virus, let kindness and reason rule our hearts, 
along with the other virtues, that elevate us beyond the reach of fear and 
its spread. Kindness combats spite; humility overcomes pride; and so on do 
the heavenly virtues vanquish the deadly sins. May God startle you with joy!

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Joe Bernard

Party on, Garth! 藍

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Patrick Moore

Garth -- I appreciate your good nature.

Patrick

On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 4:59 PM Garth  wrote:

>
> ( ( ( (  Laughing  ) ) ) )With Patrick  Moore.
>
>
>
> You know . if anyone appreciates lullabies as I do . here's a
> couple of my favorites.  It's amazing the depth and breadth what one feels,
> hears and sees from what appears to be "mere child's play".
>
> In celebration of what LIFE IS . which ever is   never not .
>
> "If" you're wondering what this has to do with "reality" . such has
> EVERYTHING to do with reality ! !
>
> Smile and play . it is your nature after all ;-)
>
> " Party On "    (  just for you Joe !  )
>
> Twinkle Twinkle  . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCjJyiqpAuU
>
> Oh ... and Snowflake too . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbbKjDjMDok
>
> And a goodnite for all with Bears.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKbpLQp509Y
>
>
> I appreciate you'nz"all  as they say in da'Burg.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 2:47:52 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> *He delighted to tread upon the brink of meaning, where light and
>> darkness begin to mingle; to approach the precipice of absurdity, and hover
>> over the abyss of unideal vacancy ...*
>>
>> Patrick Moore, who did not either have to look that up, in ABQ, NM
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 11:43 AM Garth  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I expressed is as worthy of expression as anything else on this or
>>> any topic, including yours.
>>>
>>> What's done is done . censorship censored.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>>
 If you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject, perhaps not
 saying anything might be a wise choice.

 --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4eaea590-f612-48c1-9c52-489172bd3676%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
>>
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> 
> .
>


-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Leah Peterson

You know, we just need all of us. That’s what I’m going with from now on.

Just got word Nevada has no school until middle of April at least. We’re 
grounded these days, I imagine we’ll all be ”seeing” each other a bit more 
here. Like family!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 15, 2020, at 3:59 PM, Garth  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ( ( ( (  Laughing  ) ) ) )With Patrick  Moore. 
> 
> 
> 
> You know . if anyone appreciates lullabies as I do . here's a couple 
> of my favorites.  It's amazing the depth and breadth what one feels, hears 
> and sees from what appears to be "mere child's play".  
> 
> In celebration of what LIFE IS . which ever is   never not . 
> 
> "If" you're wondering what this has to do with "reality" . such has 
> EVERYTHING to do with reality ! !  
> 
> Smile and play . it is your nature after all ;-)
> 
> " Party On "    (  just for you Joe !  )  
> 
> Twinkle Twinkle  . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCjJyiqpAuU
> 
> Oh ... and Snowflake too . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbbKjDjMDok
> 
> And a goodnite for all with Bears. 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKbpLQp509Y
> 
> 
> I appreciate you'nz"all  as they say in da'Burg. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 2:47:52 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>> He delighted to tread upon the brink of meaning, where light and darkness 
>> begin to mingle; to approach the precipice of absurdity, and hover over the 
>> abyss of unideal vacancy ...
>> 
>> Patrick Moore, who did not either have to look that up, in ABQ, NM
>> 
>>> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 11:43 AM Garth  wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> What I expressed is as worthy of expression as anything else on this or any 
>>> topic, including yours. 
>>> 
>>> What's done is done . censorship censored. 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
 If you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject, perhaps not saying 
 anything might be a wise choice.
 
 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4eaea590-f612-48c1-9c52-489172bd3676%40googlegroups.com.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Garth


( ( ( (  Laughing  ) ) ) )With Patrick  Moore. 



You know . if anyone appreciates lullabies as I do . here's a 
couple of my favorites.  It's amazing the depth and breadth what one feels, 
hears and sees from what appears to be "mere child's play".  

In celebration of what LIFE IS . which ever is   never not . 

"If" you're wondering what this has to do with "reality" . such has 
EVERYTHING to do with reality ! !  

Smile and play . it is your nature after all ;-)

" Party On "    (  just for you Joe !  )  

Twinkle Twinkle  . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCjJyiqpAuU

Oh ... and Snowflake too . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbbKjDjMDok

And a goodnite for all with Bears. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKbpLQp509Y


I appreciate you'nz"all  as they say in da'Burg. 








On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 2:47:52 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> *He delighted to tread upon the brink of meaning, where light and darkness 
> begin to mingle; to approach the precipice of absurdity, and hover over the 
> abyss of unideal vacancy ...*
>
> Patrick Moore, who did not either have to look that up, in ABQ, NM
>
> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 11:43 AM Garth > 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>  
>> What I expressed is as worthy of expression as anything else on this or 
>> any topic, including yours. 
>>
>> What's done is done . censorship censored. 
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>> If you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject, perhaps not saying 
>>> anything might be a wise choice.
>>>
>>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4eaea590-f612-48c1-9c52-489172bd3676%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread George Schick

Deborah - this supports what I heard on the local news channel last night. 
 Our governor, like many, has nixed all get-togethers, whether schools, 
churches, movies, or other social events of over 250 people for a period of 
2 weeks, i.e., until the end of the month.  However, a comment from a 
national health organization representative said that only a 2 week period 
will be of minimal use.  Hopefully, as this pandemic continues these people 
will issue further guidelines extending that period.

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:57:13 AM UTC-5, Deborah Coffin wrote:
>
> Keeping this in mind: 
>
> Half of the overall cases are expected within a period of a few weeks, 
> with 95% in a period of around 10 weeks. 
>
> From columnist Megan McArdle: There’s an old brain teaser that goes like 
> this: You have a pond of a certain size, and upon that pond, a single 
> lilypad. This particular species of lily pad reproduces once a day, so that 
> on day two, you have two lily pads. On day three, you have four, and so on. 
> Now the teaser. “If it takes the lily pads 48 days to cover the pond 
> completely, how long will it take for the pond to be covered halfway?” 
> The answer is 47 days. Moreover, at day 40, you’ll barely know the lily 
> pads are there. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Austin B.

No over the shoulder loogies applies at all times, not just during 
pandemics!

And here's something that will eat up 8 minutes of your isolation if you've 
never seen it: 

The Backwards Bicycle Brain
https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0

Cheers,

Austin 
Sykesville, MD



On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 3:39:50 PM UTC-4, lambbo wrote:
>
> :) and no over the shoulder loogies!  
>
>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread lambbo

:) and no over the shoulder loogies!  


On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 3:32:16 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> And no snot rockets.
> On 3/15/20 3:26 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Truth is Truth: Ride steel bikes with at least one lug, don't paceline 
> ‍♀️‍♂️
>
>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Steve Palincsar


And no snot rockets.

On 3/15/20 3:26 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

Truth is Truth: Ride steel bikes with at least one lug, don't paceline ‍♀️‍♂️


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Joe Bernard

Truth is Truth: Ride steel bikes with at least one lug, don't paceline ‍♀️‍♂️

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Patrick Moore

I agree with this as long as I am able to yank Garth's chain.

On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 12:13 PM lambbo  wrote:

> While a great source of community and bike/Rivendell related
> information...it is easy to consider this entire endeavor a foolish waste
> of time if we're shutting people down and arguing about who should be able
> to say what when.  I appreciate Garth's odd posts.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Patrick Moore

*He delighted to tread upon the brink of meaning, where light and darkness
begin to mingle; to approach the precipice of absurdity, and hover over the
abyss of unideal vacancy ...*

Patrick Moore, who did not either have to look that up, in ABQ, NM

On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 11:43 AM Garth  wrote:

>
>
> What I expressed is as worthy of expression as anything else on this or
> any topic, including yours.
>
> What's done is done . censorship censored.
>
>
> On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>> If you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject, perhaps not saying
>> anything might be a wise choice.
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4eaea590-f612-48c1-9c52-489172bd3676%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>


-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread lambbo

While a great source of community and bike/Rivendell related 
information...it is easy to consider this entire endeavor a foolish waste 
of time if we're shutting people down and arguing about who should be able 
to say what when.  I appreciate Garth's odd posts. 

I'm personally quarantined right now, and can forsee how, as many of us are 
working from home, this forum could become a wonderful escape from the news 
and monotony of quarantine, a space for humor, to find information, and 
opinions you disagree with (Deacon, grin), and community...

...or, it could slip into a site for us to place our (justified) 
frustration with politics, our health, and the economy, in hurtful and 
thoughtless ways which will only further dampen our collective spirits. 

Let's choose to be kind and celebrate this space, where viruses can't 
interrupt our sociability! 

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 1:52:23 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> It's not censorship to think your comments on this issue are a foolish 
> waste of time.
> On 3/15/20 1:43 PM, Garth wrote:
>
>
>  
> What I expressed is as worthy of expression as anything else on this or 
> any topic, including yours. 
>
> What's done is done . censorship censored. 
>
>
> On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>> If you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject, perhaps not saying 
>> anything might be a wise choice.
>>
>> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4eaea590-f612-48c1-9c52-489172bd3676%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Steve Palincsar

It's not censorship to think your comments on this issue are a foolish 
waste of time.


On 3/15/20 1:43 PM, Garth wrote:


What I expressed is as worthy of expression as anything else on this 
or any topic, including yours.


What's done is done . censorship censored.


On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:

If you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject, perhaps not
saying anything might be a wise choice.


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.
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.


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Garth


 
What I expressed is as worthy of expression as anything else on this or any 
topic, including yours. 

What's done is done . censorship censored. 


On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:

> If you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject, perhaps not saying 
> anything might be a wise choice.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Deborah Coffin

Keeping this in mind:

Half of the overall cases are expected within a period of a few weeks, with 95% 
in a period of around 10 weeks.

>From columnist Megan McArdle: There’s an old brain teaser that goes like this: 
>You have a pond of a certain size, and upon that pond, a single lilypad. This 
>particular species of lily pad reproduces once a day, so that on day two, you 
>have two lily pads. On day three, you have four, and so on.
Now the teaser. “If it takes the lily pads 48 days to cover the pond 
completely, how long will it take for the pond to be covered halfway?”
The answer is 47 days. Moreover, at day 40, you’ll barely know the lily pads 
are there.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch

“I keep hearing "10-20 times more deadly than the flu" and then "80% of 
infected people are invisible because they are untested and asymptomatic." 
Those two statements seem to not make sense together except to say we have yet 
to understand what is happening.”

Not so hard for me to grasp. Even if 80% of infected people don’t get sick 
(which is not true), it seems totally possible that of the 20% who do get sick, 
more die from the disease. Not all diseases are the same, and this is NOT the 
flu. Ten times more deadly than the flu translates into potentially millions 
dead. 

My wife is reasonably healthy, but has chronic heart and lung issues that would 
make COVID  very difficult for her. For the sake of everyone like my wife, 
please let’s all take steps to slow the spread of the disease. 

Leaders, such as trusted clergy, can be especially helpful in setting a good 
example and spreading accurate information. 

Thanks, everyone!

–Eric N (who is maintaining social distancing on today’s coffee ride)

> On Mar 15, 2020, at 8:25 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> 
> 
> If you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject, perhaps not saying 
> anything might be a wise choice.
> 
>> On 3/15/20 10:09 AM, Garth wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>You have no say in the matter. 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 8:39:57 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>> 
>>> Garth, this really isn't the time for this kind of prattle.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA
> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Leah Peterson

Doug, you’re a *sweetheart* and thanks for your kind words. I am not on the 
front lines of this for now; I echo your sentiments for all the healthcare 
workers who ARE. I’ve followed the stories of some of the nurses fighting 
COID-19 in other countries and it’s demoralizing.

I hope you all are well and stay that way in the coming weeks!

Leah

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 15, 2020, at 8:46 AM, DHans  wrote:
> 
> Leah,
> I want to thank you and other health care workers who put themselves in harms 
> way to treat others. Your sense of humanity and selflessness is awe-inspiring 
> and certainly much appreciated. 
> Doug
> 
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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread DHans

Leah,
I want to thank you and other health care workers who put themselves in harms 
way to treat others. Your sense of humanity and selflessness is awe-inspiring 
and certainly much appreciated. 
Doug

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Deborah Coffin

The flu vaccine is designed to produce “herd immunity.” Those weakest and 
immune-compromised cannot take the vaccine. The rest of us get the vaccine to 
shield babies, the sick, and the elderly. The more people protected, the lower 
the spread. “The” flu isn’t always the “same” flu, which is why we have world 
health geniuses developing new vaccines to protect against the prominent strain 
that year. Sometimes they get it wrong—like a couple of years ago—and a lot of 
people get sick. Some flu strains are more virulent in the young, others in the 
elderly, others still, in mid-life. I only started getting flu shots once I 
realized that I was protecting my little grandsons and the old people at the 
retirement community where my mother lived. I’d never gotten them until I 
understood the community purpose. It will be the same in future with this 
virus. We’ll get a vaccine to bring the death rate from what it seems to be now 
(I’ve read it’s from .2-16% depending on age and health) down to levels like 
the flu.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Steve Palincsar

If you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject, perhaps not saying 
anything might be a wise choice.


On 3/15/20 10:09 AM, Garth wrote:



   You have no say in the matter.


On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 8:39:57 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:

Garth, this really isn't the time for this kind of prattle.




--
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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Deborah Coffin

“I keep hearing "10-20 times more deadly than the flu" and then "80% of
infected people are invisible because they are untested and asymptomatic."
Those two statements seem to not make sense together except to say we have yet
to understand what is happening.”

The issue is that people do not show SYMPTOMS for 3-12 days AFTER they have
the virus and are most infectious at the earliest stages of the illness. A
“mild” case of the virus is a two-week to month-long illness, with symptoms up
to and including pneumonia; a “moderate” case Is one that requires
hospitalization and intubation; “severe” means that other organs are involved
and survival is not assured. Once hospitals become overwhelmed with “moderate”
cases, they must make decisions about who to treat. They will treat younger
people, those with kids, politicians, the richest, (pick your category)etc.
before older people. They will have to make decisions like that. Healthcare
workers will be overwhelmed and fall sick themselves.
Because we have done so little testing, epidemiologists are projecting spread
by using China, South Korea, and Italy as models. China built a couple of
entire hospitals in 10 days to meet the need. They took draconian (by our
standards) measures. Still, they were treating people stacked in hallways and
broom closets. South Korea has far more beds per person than the US, so their
survival rate is expected to be higher than ours will be. The latest
projections are showing a conservative 420,000 will die in the US in the next
several weeks. It will spread quickly because of the 5.2-day (on average)
pre-symptomatic infectious period. Here’s my source.

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Garth


 
   You have no say in the matter. 


On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 8:39:57 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> Garth, this really isn't the time for this kind of prattle.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Steve Palincsar


Garth, this really isn't the time for this kind of prattle.

On 3/15/20 6:41 AM, Garth wrote:

Reminds of these few movie scene words with Uncle Jack and Tom 

"You want answers ?
.I want the Truth
You can't handle the Truth"

The Truth is The Truth is The Truth . Truth, The Whole Truth and 
nothing but Truth is Truth .
Unchallengingly  unchallengeable . Indivisibly Indivisible and 
Absolutely Absolute . One and All and All and One  .
Truth has no "room" for an "else/other/counter/contra" . Truth is 
all Full Totally True  Totally Truth.

Every Truth be True  negation negated.

Riddle me this Batman (playfully laughing) Who AM I ?
-


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Steve Palincsar




On 3/14/20 11:38 PM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Philip, as it’s been in our country for ages, we have some natural immunity to 
influenza.



Not to mention vaccines that provide acquired immunity.



  We have none to COVID-19. COVID-19 is a virus new to us,



and a vaccine is optimistically at least a year away.



with a much higher death rate than flu, and unknown long-term effects. We are 
trying “flatten the curve” so as not to cause a collapse with our healthcare 
system, and we’re already behind the 8 ball. See Italy.




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Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

If you're responding to me, Philip, no, I am not making any particular 
conclusion other than we don't know far more than we realize, including 
what we think we know. I keep hearing "10-20 times more deadly than the 
flu" and then "80% of infected people are invisible because they are 
untested and asymptomatic." Those two statements seem to not make sense 
together except to say we have yet to understand what is happening. If we 
compare apples to apples in death rates, we don't yet know the parallel 
death rate because we are using "confirmed cases,"  when for every 
symptomatic person there are four asymptomatic. However, you are correct, 
that if we are this concerned about coronavirus and it's current 
progression, it sheds light on our lack of concern for the flu. 

Are we in the US systematically using everything at our disposal? No. If we 
were, we would be responding with homeopathics, which were very successful 
in treating the Spanish flu compared with allopathic (modern) medicine. We 
should be using both/and, much as Saint Mother Teresa and her sisters 
did/do. Some places around the world use both. It will be interesting to 
learn how successful homeopathy is in comparison to allopathy. For anyone 
interested, here is the homeopathic resource we use and her approach to the 
coronavirus. https://joettecalabrese.com/blog/ferocious-flu-fears/

There remain many unanswered and even unaddressed questions on the long 
term effects of immunizations. Over time (generations), do they weaken the 
immune system's ability to respond to new viruses? We don't really know, we 
are only at the multi-generational wide-spread use of them now. Are there 
other long term unintended consequences? Much like taking antibiotics has 
significant unintended consequences, so may immunizations. We simple don't 
know, and we know so little we likely don't know what we don't know.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 9:15:32 PM UTC-6, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> So you’re saying we should have already been taking these precautions in 
> order to have lessened the deaths from the flu last year? And in addition 
> to the flu again this year we have the corona virus? So we should double 
> down, clearly. 
>
> Philip 
> Santa Rosa, Cal. 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-15 Thread Garth

Reminds of these few movie scene words with Uncle Jack and Tom  

"You want answers ?
.I want the Truth 
You can't handle the Truth" 

The Truth is The Truth is The Truth . Truth, The Whole Truth and 
nothing but Truth is Truth . 
Unchallengingly  unchallengeable . Indivisibly Indivisible and 
Absolutely Absolute . One and All and All and One  .  
Truth has no "room" for an "else/other/counter/contra" . Truth is all 
Full Totally True  Totally Truth. 
Every Truth be True  negation negated. 

Riddle me this Batman (playfully laughing) Who AM I ? 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-14 Thread Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!

Philip, as it’s been in our country for ages, we have some natural immunity to 
influenza. We have none to COVID-19. COVID-19 is a virus new to us, with a much 
higher death rate than flu, and unknown long-term effects. We are trying 
“flatten the curve” so as not to cause a collapse with our healthcare system, 
and we’re already behind the 8 ball. See Italy. 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-14 Thread Philip Williamson

So you’re saying we should have already been taking these precautions in order 
to have lessened the deaths from the flu last year? And in addition to the flu 
again this year we have the corona virus? So we should double down, clearly. 

Philip
Santa Rosa, Cal. 

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-14 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch



CoronaCone for all your mobile social distancing needs... Grin (pilfered 
from facebook).

[image: IMG_6235.jpeg]



On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 8:11:55 AM UTC-6, Jock Dewey wrote:
>
> Y'all:
>
> So here in Athens, GA we've got many ops for group riding. I ride with a 
> couple of different groups regularly, turns out to be 4 or 5 days a week 
> with other riders.
>
> What do you all think about bicycle gatherings? We ride in pacelines, 
> wheel to wheel, maybe we shouldn't be. When we gather to start or stop, can 
> practice social distancing SD, but what about moving down the road. Any 
> brilliant ideas?
>
> Jock Dewey / Athens, GA
>

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-14 Thread Eamon Nordquist

Here in Seattle, I'm out and about on my bike, but wouldn't ride in close 
quarters. As to whether warmer temperatures will cause this virus to go away 
for now, we do not yet know. One thing we DO know is it is currently spreading 
in Singapore and Australia, so that could mean it's not going anywhere soon.

Eamon
Seattle

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[RBW] Re: Group Riding / New Covid-19 World

2020-03-14 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Aye, Joe, we are likely similarly qualified, and I'd argue logic and reason 
take us a long way, in a cordial conversation like this, to be more 
qualified than zero. A few clarifications:

- I understand how you may have read what I wrote this way; however, I did 
not say we should treat it "like the flu every year" but that we will 
likely need to learn to live with it, similarly but likely with 
differences, to the way we live with the flu;
- flu vaccines are like helmets on bikes, they may not do what people think 
they do and naming this leads to volatile conversations. Keep in mind, the 
flu vaccine was very much around in 2017-18. 
- I conceded your point that we don't yet know the effect of warmer 
temperatures.

With abandon,
Patrick 

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 5:54:33 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Two factors: 1. We don't know how the virus reacts to warmer temps yet. 2. 
> We don't have a vaccine yet. 
>
> We can't treat it as "like the flu every year" until we've been through 
> this pandemic and can see the other side of it, and with a vaccine to fight 
> it. Which means all of us speculating about this on a bike forum should 
> stop doing that and stick with the OP's question. Which, frankly, we're 
> exactly as qualified to answer as the guy who asked it 路

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