[RE-wrenches] Outback question

[Ron Young via RE-wrenches]

Hi Wrenches, I have a client who has a 6 year old Outback 3524 inverter. It has 
performed well for him until two months ago when he started seeing huge 
fluctuations in the charging behaviour indicated on the Mate and flaky 
behaviour in the household loads. He said he’s also “burned out” a couple of 
generators. The AC loads remaining constant while the charging loads would 
fluctuate, doubling sometimes. 

Because he’s pretty remote I’ve had him troubleshooting and he has replaced the 
battery pack, switched generators, checked all the wiring. He found a loose 
wire incoming from the generator but when repaired it made no difference. I 
believe the problem may be the charging board in the Outback is failing. 
Appreciate any comments or suggestions. Also what is the current status of 
boards from Outback? From reading the Wrenches list I see that Outback has 
changed hands recently.

Thank you!

Ron Young
earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com
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[RE-wrenches] Recommendations for A/B battery switch

[Ron Young via RE-wrenches]

Hi Wrenches & Happy New Year!

I have a client who wants to switch between two 24v 800 a/h battery banks. I 
know this isn’t a recommended strategy and have advised him accordingly but he 
still insists this is a method he wants to use in his off-grid system. None of 
the A/B type switches I look at are really designed for regular use or that 
high an amp requirement. Is there a commercial product anyone has used that 
might do the job?

Thanks in advance!

Ron

Best Regards,
Ron Young
Solareagle.com <http://solareagle.com/>

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[RE-wrenches] Magnum problem

[Ron Young via RE-wrenches]

Hello Wrenches,

I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it was 
installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out the door 
on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. Electrician just had 
to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. 
Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The site is a 3 hour trip each 
way. The electrician was baffled, he had experience installing solar but very 
limited so I went to the site to see what the problem was. After spending a day 
checking out the inverter with two different generators, checking all the 
connections, AC at the inputs at the inverter and at the outputs on the 
breakers, and even removed the cover from the inverter to make sure some 
connections had not shaken loose inside the box on the long bumpy road into the 
property. Everything checked out. So assuming the AC board in the inverter was 
faulty I ordered a new unit to replace and that has now been done. SAME 
PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s possible that the Magnum remote monitor 
could be the problem. It functions properly on every setting but is it possible 
there is an internal fault? Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from 
initiating? Seems unlikely to me because the inverter can go into charge mode 
even without the monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between 
the monitor and inverter but no luck. 

The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion 3.8kW. 
Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of generators in the 
past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we don’t have it yet to 
test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. Output to the house on bypass 
is consistent and without problem.

Any suggestions - this is just confounding.

Ron


earthRight Products - Solareagle.com 

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[RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations

[Ron Young via RE-wrenches]

Hi All,

I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger (min. 
100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum 85a 
charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40. Finding 
high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one but not 
sure if there’s anything else out there.

Ron

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com 
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
1-877-925-2929

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[RE-wrenches] Magnum issues?

[Ron Young via RE-wrenches]

I’m in Canada, on the west coast, and while the supply chain issues over the 
last 2 years with Magnum inverters were severe they seem to have eased over the 
last few months. However I have just had a local service depot tell me that 
repair boards are unavailable and to get back to them in 4 - 6 months!! Just 
asking my U.S. colleagues, have you had the same experience in the last few 
months or is this just a local issue?

Ron Young

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com <http://solareagle.com/>
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex AC Fault 186.6v

[Ron Young via RE-wrenches]

Back in the mid ’90’s one of my businesses used colour laser copiers worth $50k 
each. Located at the end of a long rural route the voltage would whiplash 
through a wild range depending on demand upstream (mostly low voltage). It kept 
blowing the $5,000 lasers out of the copiers until the techs realized the 
problem after installing a data meter. Problem was solved by installing an 
isolating voltage conditioner.

Best Regards,
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com <http://solareagle.com/>
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
1-877-925-2929





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> On Dec 8, 2022, at 1:22 PM, Barton Churchill via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’ve seen services at the end of utility lines have wildly fluctuating 
> voltage, especially during high demand winter months. When voltage goes below 
> or above inverter set points the inverter will disconnect with a fault like 
> you listed. Changing inverters will only help if the new one has a larger 
> voltage window. Otherwise get the utility to install a meter for a month or 
> two, if there is a problem, they have to fix it. Also, if load side mains are 
> undersized for actual load the voltage can drop at the inverter (and 
> everywhere else) causing the same thing.
> From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
> Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches 
> Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2022 2:13:23 PM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc: Sam Haraldson 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex AC Fault 186.6v
>  
> Howdy Wrenches,
> 
> Any "old timers" here care to chime in with some basic info on what I might 
> be heading out to see at a 10+ year old ground mount?  It's a Xantrex 
> displaying the message AC Fault 186.6v.  I'm prepared to head out there and 
> troubleshoot blind if no one has anything to offer up but figured why not 
> post a quick message here in case anyone has insight they wish to share with 
> me prior to my visit next week.  
> 
> Subsequently since this is a ground mount it doesn't need rapid shutdown so 
> if the inverter has failed I probably have some decent options to replace it. 
>  If you've had good luck with a particular brand to use for swaps please 
> share that intel as well.  I don't know how big the array is so all I'm 
> looking for is brands and not models.  
> 
> Most appreciated,
> Sam
> Sam Haraldson <mailto:s...@onsiteenergyinc.com>   
> Installation & Service Manager
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters

[Ron Young via RE-wrenches]

I have been waiting literally months for delivery of 4024 and 4448 PAE 
inverters both this year and 2021. It seems Magnum has dropped through the 
cracks in the floorboards. My supplier, the largest in Canada, has no idea of 
future shipments, they just show up without advance notice. I think Magnum is 
in trouble.

Ron Young
earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com

> On Jul 20, 2022, at 8:08 AM, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jeremy,
> Check with Zonna Energy in PA. I use them for almost all of my off-grid 
> equipment now and have been very happy with the service and pricing. They 
> normally stock Magnum equipment but I have not checked on inverters in a 
> while. 
> 
> 
> Luke Christy
> 719-588-3044
> sgsrenewab...@gmail.com <mailto:sgsrenewab...@gmail.com>
> 
> 
>> On Jul 20, 2022, at 5:29 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches 
>> > <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> Does anyone have a source these days for Magnum Energy Inverters? 
>> Contact me off list if needed. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Jeremy Rodriguez 
>> Solar Installation / Design Expert 
>> All Solar, Inc.
>> 1453 M St
>> Penrose Colorado 81240
>> 
>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. 
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[RE-wrenches] Leakage of current

[Ron Young via RE-wrenches]

I have a customer that has self installed an array on a metal roof using APS 
Rapid shutdown devices. The roof rack is standard rails and L-feet. It is a 
high voltage system that will be connected to a Sol-Ark but it has yet to be 
connected, just MC cables from each set of 8 panels (3 altogether) run back to 
the location where the Sol-Ark will be installed. He raised a concern about 
what he described as leakage of current to the metal roof:

"I did experience noticeable “leakage” of current to our roof prior to 
installation of the ground cable...Working around the metal roof one could 
definitely feel the tingle of the current, and it persisted until I had the 
ground cable connected.”

My only guess is that possibly the APS devices are leaking at connection point 
but not sure how to check or he had an unprotected end of the MC cable touching 
the roof but that wouldn’t leak with the APS shutoff installed as it would need 
a signal from the transmitter that is not yet installed in the Sol-Ark. The 
panels are LG375’s.

Ron
earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com 
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[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark install

[Ron Young via RE-wrenches]

Hi Wrenches, trying to wrap my head around a first time Sol-Ark install. 
Because the max DC voltage is 500v at 18a  and the PV I’m using is 40v DC each 
I will have to create three strings each 480v. What would be the best choice 
for a home run wire? I’ve always used smaller strings with micro inverters, a 
combiner at the array and a single Teck home run cable but the string inverter 
presents a different scenario and it looks like I’ll need to use three home run 
cables, one for each string. 

Ron Young

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component

[Ron Young]

Hi Allan, if you haven’t sold it I had a customer looking for one just last 
week.

Ron
Solareagle.com

> On Dec 10, 2021, at 8:27 AM, frenergy  wrote:
> 
> Yikes, that's a tough one. Was it an old one on a dusty shelf?  was it given 
> to you or pulled off an old system, or Ebay?  I have no idea what they 
> originally cost.  Christmas is coming.
> 
> Bill
> 
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/9/2021 11:38 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote:
>> What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used Trace SW 
>> Remote display unit with the cable included, please?
>> Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply like to get a 
>> sense of the range among us Wrenches.
>> Thank you,
>> Allan
>> -- 
>> Allan Sindelar
>> al...@sindelarsolar.com 
>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
>> 505 780-2738 cell
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
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[RE-wrenches] Magnum

[Ron Young]

Magnum has been my go to inverter for off-grid systems for years, always found 
them to be solid and reliable. This year (at least in Canada) we are waiting 
literally months to fill orders on 4024’s, 4448 and other components. I know 
that in general there are supply line issues on everything due to Covid fallout 
of various kinds. But are US dealers/installers having the same problem with 
Magnum supply or is this a Canadian issue?

Any comments on the new Midnite DIY inverters?

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
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[RE-wrenches] Solar panel impact

[Ron Young]

Seeking the wisdom of the wrenches. I had a stack of 20 330 watt HIDM panels 
leaning against a shelf in my store window. An out of control vehicle slammed 
into the front of the store and all 20 of the panels were knocked to the 
ground. They kind of fell as a unit and the top of the first panel landed on a 
cardboard box which supported the weight of the entire lot about 2’ off the 
floor.

All the panels appear undamaged and I’m sure they are fine but having read a 
little about micro cracks that can degrade the performance I thought I’d ask 
for opinions. 

Ron
earthRight Solar
Solareagle.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SWWP - Whisper 200

[Ron Young]

If anyone is looking for blades for that Whisper 200 I have a set, new in box. 

Ron
earthRight Solar
Solareagle.com

> On Jun 18, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Jeremy Coxon  wrote:
> 
> Anyone have a need for an unused Southwest Windpower Whisper 200 turbine 
> head?  There are no blades, nose cone, or controller.  Contact me directly 
> for more details and pics.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
> MWBE Certified
> 
> 
> 
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[RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement

[Ron Young]

Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has had a 
fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head start 
here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure 
about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks.

Ron

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[RE-wrenches] Wind Turbine

[Ron Young]

Looking for recommendations on a wind turbine from the Wrenches. Wondering what 
people are liking out there right now. I know it’s a pretty skinny market and 
lots of junk but my client would like to replace an aging model that he has in 
a low to moderate wind area, not spend too much money but spend enough to get 
reliable. Ideally around 1kW but smaller is ok.

Ron

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com 
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
1-877-925-2929

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[RE-wrenches] Solar area lighting

[Ron Young]

Hello Wrenches, I’m looking for some solar area lighting or street lights for a 
local project. I need decent wattage or lumens, nothing under 5000 lumens. Has 
anyone had any experience with these? I’ve seen a few on Amazon etc. but a lot 
of conflicting and unreliable info. I contacted solar lighting in Fla. with no 
response. 

Ron
earthRight - Solareagle.com
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[RE-wrenches] Solaredge inverter noise

[Ron Young]

I have a client complaining about RF noise from his Solaredge 5kw GT inverter 
installed in 2018. He believes it is causing static on his radio no matter 
where he locates it in the house. I haven’t been able to visit the site yet but 
wondering if there are any suggestions for mitigating RF or line noise in these 
situations? 

Thanks in advance!

Ron

Solareagle.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Broken bolt

[Ron Young]

I don’t believe the problem was galling, the bolt was already seated and I was 
just doing a final torque on it. Tightening wasn’t excessive for the size of 
the bolt. Looking at the cross section of the bolt it just doesn’t look like it 
has solidified in the mfg. process. I think oxides were formed from metallic 
impurities during manufacture or some other related cause.

Ron

> On Oct 2, 2018, at 8:26 AM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
> 
> Ron
> It almost looks like the bolt to stud is off center as it might be gauling 
> causing pre-mature torq on the stud that can lead to failure, try grease 
> paste on the threads next time, it might help.
> Jerry
> 
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 1:14 AM Ron Young  <mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com>> wrote:
> Anyone seen this before, the bolt on a shunt inside a Magnum inverter snapped 
> right off, other half inside the shunt. I was tightening it but I don’t 
> believe excessively. It appears to be crystallized. Magnum is replacing the 
> shunt but it’s my good luck that the job is 5 hours into a remote backwater 
> along a punishing road.
> 
> 
> 
> Ron Young
> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com 
> <http://solareagle.com/>___
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[RE-wrenches] Broken bolt

[Ron Young]

Anyone seen this before, the bolt on a shunt inside a Magnum inverter snapped 
right off, other half inside the shunt. I was tightening it but I don’t believe 
excessively. It appears to be crystallized. Magnum is replacing the shunt but 
it’s my good luck that the job is 5 hours into a remote backwater along a 
punishing road.



Ron Young
earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase

[Ron Young]

Good to know August and Bill, I’ll put in a call today.

Ron
earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com

> On Jul 30, 2018, at 8:40 AM, August Goers  wrote:
> 
> We have many M210 and M190 micros installed and deal with replacements 
> frequently. If you're seeing physical signs of oozing or swelling, it's only 
> a matter of time before they stop working. Enphase should replace them under 
> warranty, especially if you explain that now is the time to get them swapped 
> and show them the pics.
> 
> August
> Luminalt
> 
> On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 8:08 AM Bill Hennessy  > wrote:
> Ron, Give Enphase a call; replacements are usually sent without a hassle. 
> They have a lot of experience replacing their older inverters. 
> 
> regards, bill
>  
> Bill Hennessy
> Berks Solar, LLC
> 371 Centennial Rd
> Mertztown, PA 19539
> 
> o 610 682 4300
> c 484 560 4666
> NABCEP certified installer
> PA contractor #44411
> www.berkssolar.com 
> 
> 
> From: RM You mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com>>
> To: RE-wrenches  > 
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 9:46 PM
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase
> 
> Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 
> out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like 
> to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but I 
> don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but the 
> trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk cable 
> for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly 
> appreciated ;) !
> 
> Ron
> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase

[Ron Young]

Hi Jay, there is a black tar like substance leaking out of the seams on two 
inverters and from around the connection wire on a third. It’s not a lot but 
seems like it shouldn’t be happening. There are 12 inverters in the array.





> On Jul 27, 2018, at 6:51 PM, jay  > wrote:
> 
> HI Ron,
> 
> Leaking what?
> 
> jay
> 
> peltz power
> 
>> On Jul 27, 2018, at 6:46 PM, RM You > > wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 
>> out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like 
>> to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but 
>> I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but 
>> the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk 
>> cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly 
>> appreciated ;) !
>> 
>> Ron
>> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com 
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question

[Ron Young]

Hi Nick, so if I understand you correctly then I can find some older Enphase 
units (I know where I can get some 250’s) and they will integrate with a couple 
of new 265w Hanwah Q Cells, no problem. I could just plug them in then add them 
to the existing array. The existing Envoy and 210 Enphase units will not have 
any issues etc.?

Thanks!

Ron
earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com

> On Jul 7, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Nick Soleil  wrote:
> 
> Hi wrenches,
> 
> The older generation micros (M190s, M210s, M215s, M250s, S280s) all 
> communicated at 144kHz, line to neutral and communicated with the old EMUs, 
> the oval Envoys, and the Envoy-S system monitors.
> 
> The new IQ micros (IQ 6, IQ 6+, IQ 7, IQ 7+, and IQ 7X) no longer have a 
> neutral, so we had to go to a new communication protocol which is 110kHz, 
> line to line.  
> 
> You would need a new IQ Envoy for pairing with the new IQ micros in addition 
> to the existing system monitor.  
> 
> If your customer wants to stick with HIT modules similar to the Sanyo's they 
> had originally, then you can pair the Panasonic HIT modules with our IQ 7X 
> micros.  We have a module compatibility tracker online here:
> https://enphase.com/en-us/support/module-compatibility 
> 
> 
> 
> Cordially,
> Nick Soleil
> Enphase Energy
>  Product Manager
> 
> (707) 763-4784 x7267  // office
> (707) 321-2937  // cell
>  
> Energy
>  Evolved ™
> Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System 
> 
> 
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300
> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315
> Texas Master Electrician #284451
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
> Jay 
> Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2018 8:32 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question
>  
> Hi Jerry,
> 
> Can the new EMU work with the older units?
> 
> Jay
> Peltz power. 
> 
> 
> On Jul 6, 2018, at 11:59 PM, Jerry Shafer  > wrote:
> 
>> Wrenches, Ron
>> Thats a good thing with enphase, mix and don't need to match, you will need 
>> inverters that connect in line or just seperate them with a 
>> combiner/subpanel. You will need to stay away from the new Q inverter series 
>> as its on a different frequency for comms, 190's 210's 215's and as l recall 
>> the 250's all on the older EMU, they are getting harder to find but im sure 
>> there are some out there.
>> Jerry
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 3:06 PM RM You > > wrote:
>> I have a legacy system with 12 Sanyo HIT 215N panels and Enphase 210’s. 
>> Client wants to re-do roof and add two more panels when the system is 
>> re-installed. Are there any concerns with mixing Enphase inverters on a 
>> single string, e.g. adding a couple of 265w panels and appropriate 
>> inverters? We don’t do a lot of grid tie and this hasn’t come up before.
>> 
>> Ron
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Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test

[Ron Young]

I have several dozen older Sanyo’s installed from that period. Are there any 
obvious physical degradations to look for or specific tests that can show 
issues? I don’t have a megger but have two systems installed in grid tied 
systems and a couple off-grid. No performance complaints as yet.

Ron

> On May 13, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
> 
> Kirk
> I dont know if you know this but Panisonic will warranty the old Sanyos, just 
> got this from a rep last week.the issue you are having may be due to the 
> failing of the back sheet under the frame edge.
> Jerry
> 
> On Sun, May 13, 2018, 6:04 AM Kirk Herander  > wrote:
> I now have two systems with older Sanyos(Panasonic), circa 2004, which 
> consistently fail the inverter (Solaredge) startup Insolation test in wet 
> weather. Usually 200 – 550 kohms, just below the inverters 600k limit. 
> Confirmed by my meggering. I discovered this after convincing the owners to 
> upgrade the inverters from old SMA’s which don’t test for it. Anyone else see 
> this issue in older panels, in particular Sanyos?
> 
>  
> 
> Kirk Herander
> 
> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
> 
> Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018
> 
> www.vermontsolarnow.com 
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
> 
> NABCEPTM  2003 Inaugural Certificant
> 
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
> 
> 802.863.1202
> 
>  
> 
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter generator question

[Ron Young]

Hi Dave, I’m trying to get the customer to do a manual AC bypass but have to be 
careful about going over the clients technical ability to the point where he 
will cause more problems. Dealing with the vagaries of peoples choices is not 
always so cut and dried unfortunately. This client has money but will not spend 
it properly. In a small business you don’t often get to choose your customers. 
By the way the current fires out here, that have been raging for over a month 
now, are insane. Just one fire covers over 500,000 acres! I have been locked 
down at my property for 35 days because if I leave I will not be allowed back 
in.

Ron Young

> On Aug 13, 2017, at 10:42 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> Agree Dan if this is troubleshooting an installation done by someone else.
> On the other hand, it is our responsibility at the design phase to not
> even give the option of not having good Com's and AC bypass switching. The
> AC by pass would tell you quite a bit here about if the generator, the
> load, or the Inverter/charger was the source.
> 
> I have clients who are pretty clueless but I can get on the phone and walk
> them thru the data/button pushing for my troubleshooting.
> 
> Fires are nasty! We had 5,000 people evacuated for 7 days here 10 days ago
> in temperatures near 100F. Quite a few science projects inside those
> refrigerators!! I had a fire guy tell me if I leave my land they would not
> let me back in. Since this happens every 3 years or so we always stay as
> there never is an engine here until the fire goes by.
> 
> An E ticket ride watching the air attack!
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> For situations like these, unfortunately I've found that it's very handy
>> to
>> keep a remote each for Outback, Magnum and Conext in the troubleshooting
>> tool bag. Without a Mate (preferably a Mate 3) you are driving the highway
>> with a tarp over your windshield, and have to navigate by blinky colored
>> lights telling you where to exit onto the dirt road.
>> 
>> What blinky light error code is the inverter throwing at him?
>> 
>> I don't understand why clients won't spring for these relatively
>> inexpensive, essential remotes, but it's the same with battery SOC
>> monitoring coulomb counters up here off the grid. You just spent $10K on
>> an
>> offgrid power system, and can't afford a remote (I now call them "inverter
>> control panels" to clients) or a SOC monitor ("battery control panel")?
>> But
>> that's how it is, over and over again.
>> 
>> So sorry that you can't get to the site because of the fires, I have been
>> through that here in Colorado. I'd suggest tinkering with the inverter
>> charger settings and try lowering the load percentage to the generator,
>> but
>> without a Mate you can't do that.
>> 
>> I sincerely hope that Tump's suggestion is correct and that your client
>> has
>> auto-idle turned on with the Honda. My only Honda issue has been the 3kW
>> "cube" with a magnum inverter, all the 5kW Hondas have been fine with any
>> inverter brand.
>> 
>> Best regards;
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Fink
>> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>> IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for:
>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersâ„¢
>> 970.672.4342
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Tump mailto:t...@swnl.net>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Make sure that the client has the AUTO idle  set to OFF!
>>> 
>>> On Aug 12, 2017, at 8:32 PM, Ron Young >> <mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Have a client where I recently installed an Outback VFX3524 inverter in
>>> June. He’s using a Honda generator and has recently started having
>>> issues.
>>> He has been complaining that the inverter seems to be running hot but I
>>> believe this is because he doesn’t have good ventilation around it. He
>>> is
>>> probably also running high on the loads. He doesn’t have a Mate so
>>> can’t
>>> identify the error. He is in a remote location and I am currently unable
>>> to
>>> travel due to fire restrictions in my area (major BC wildfires).
>>> 
>>> Here is his recent email:
>>> -Seems the inverter is recognizing the power in as an issue, and
>>> throwing
>>> an error.
>>> -My existing 5000 Honda generator has been onli

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter generator question

[Ron Young]

Thanks Wallace, the thing is, the VFX3524 is not a cheap inverter and should 
perform well with a generator. However with the customer reporting his concerns 
about high heat in the inverter and now these problems I’m not sure where to 
pin the problem. I’ll see if he will check the inverter and gen. voltage 
output. 

Ron Young
  
> On Aug 13, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Wallace Stahle  wrote:
> 
> I would look at the generator output voltage with charger in standby. 
> Oops no mate = no control. Find a way to power loads directly and monitor gen 
> voltage. With true RMS meter.
> Check inverter output voltage alone. Then check AC voltage while trying to 
> charge. 
> 
> I would suggest the AVR (auto voltage regulator) on the generator is drifting 
> to a higher voltage, and/or the non power factor corrected charger in the FX 
> is having a rather negative effect on the generator output WHILE charging. 
> The error light reflects out of spec AC input I surmisre
> 
> A few years ago  a three year old VFX2812 began to misbehave on a system with 
> Honda EM model gen. After observing high gen voltage, up to 134 v AC the AVR 
> was replaced, Some improvement resulted. Not long after, the customer 
> reported fried surge protecter plug strips and continuing light flickering 
> beyond the usual variations.
> I observed rapid voltage changes while charging, strange noise from the 
> inverter and unacceptable down stream effects while charging.
> I installed a Magnum  MS2812 in its place and all the ill effects were 
> resolved. 
> 
> I will only consider a PFC charger since then. Budget not the only value to 
> consider. Or rather pay now or pay later.
> The customer absorbed the fried plug strips and some misc. equipment.  I 
> absorbed the new Magnum  cost (and suspect VFX2812) and the lesson on 
> interactions between equipment. Some things dont play well with other things.
> 
> Wallace Stahle
> Future Electric Energy Co
> PO Box 236
> Willits, CA 95490
> 707-459-0474
> Lic.#C10-762093
> fut...@pacific.net
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 12, 2017, at 5:32 PM, Ron Young  wrote:
>> 
>> Have a client where I recently installed an Outback VFX3524 inverter in 
>> June. He’s using a Honda generator and has recently started having issues. 
>> He has been complaining that the inverter seems to be running hot but I 
>> believe this is because he doesn’t have good ventilation around it. He is 
>> probably also running high on the loads. He doesn’t have a Mate so can’t 
>> identify the error. He is in a remote location and I am currently unable to 
>> travel due to fire restrictions in my area (major BC wildfires).
>> 
>> Here is his recent email:
>> -Seems the inverter is recognizing the power in as an issue, and throwing an 
>> error.
>> -My existing 5000 Honda generator has been online with the unit since you 
>> installed it. 
>> -The last few days, when there is very little load, or the unit goes to 
>> float, the generator goes into a high rpm.
>> -My existing 5000 Honda crapped out on me this morning, and holds a low rpm, 
>> not putting out much power.  Will run a tool, but still won’t hold a higher 
>> rpm.
>> -I borrowed an identical 5000 Honda generator, and it seemed to be doing 
>> fine for about 1.5 hours. 
>> -Now it’s doing the same thing as the other generator.  The inverter system 
>> throws an error, the generator is taken offline, and the generator rpm go up.
>> -If I manually manipulate the throttle not he generator lower, then the 
>> inverter re-engages.
>> 
>> What the heck could this be?  I don’t want to fry the borrowed generator, 
>> but we can’t systematically bypass the inverter, and the house requires the 
>> power.
>> 
>> Ron Young
>> earthRight - Solareagle
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter generator question

[Ron Young]

Unfortunately this is a bare bones setup, no bypass. The generator is a 
EM5000SX. I know there have been issues in the past with a certain model of 
Honda but not sure about this one. 

Ron

> On Aug 12, 2017, at 7:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> If the install has an AC bypass, he should use this to troubleshoot. Ac
> bypass takes the inverter/charger out of the loop. --Dave
> 
>> Have a client where I recently installed an Outback VFX3524 inverter in
>> June. He’s using a Honda generator and has recently started having
>> issues. He has been complaining that the inverter seems to be running hot
>> but I believe this is because he doesn’t have good ventilation around
>> it. He is probably also running high on the loads. He doesn’t have a
>> Mate so can’t identify the error. He is in a remote location and I am
>> currently unable to travel due to fire restrictions in my area (major BC
>> wildfires).
>> 
>> Here is his recent email:
>> -Seems the inverter is recognizing the power in as an issue, and throwing
>> an error.
>> -My existing 5000 Honda generator has been online with the unit since you
>> installed it.
>> -The last few days, when there is very little load, or the unit goes to
>> float, the generator goes into a high rpm.
>> -My existing 5000 Honda crapped out on me this morning, and holds a low
>> rpm, not putting out much power.  Will run a tool, but still won’t hold
>> a higher rpm.
>> -I borrowed an identical 5000 Honda generator, and it seemed to be doing
>> fine for about 1.5 hours.
>> -Now it’s doing the same thing as the other generator.  The inverter
>> system throws an error, the generator is taken offline, and the generator
>> rpm go up.
>> -If I manually manipulate the throttle not he generator lower, then the
>> inverter re-engages.
>> 
>> What the heck could this be?  I don’t want to fry the borrowed
>> generator, but we can’t systematically bypass the inverter, and the
>> house requires the power.
>> 
>> Ron Young
>> earthRight - Solareagle
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> 
> 
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> "we go where powerlines don't"
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[RE-wrenches] Outback inverter generator question

[Ron Young]

Have a client where I recently installed an Outback VFX3524 inverter in June. 
He’s using a Honda generator and has recently started having issues. He has 
been complaining that the inverter seems to be running hot but I believe this 
is because he doesn’t have good ventilation around it. He is probably also 
running high on the loads. He doesn’t have a Mate so can’t identify the error. 
He is in a remote location and I am currently unable to travel due to fire 
restrictions in my area (major BC wildfires).

Here is his recent email:
-Seems the inverter is recognizing the power in as an issue, and throwing an 
error.
-My existing 5000 Honda generator has been online with the unit since you 
installed it. 
-The last few days, when there is very little load, or the unit goes to float, 
the generator goes into a high rpm.
-My existing 5000 Honda crapped out on me this morning, and holds a low rpm, 
not putting out much power.  Will run a tool, but still won’t hold a higher rpm.
-I borrowed an identical 5000 Honda generator, and it seemed to be doing fine 
for about 1.5 hours. 
-Now it’s doing the same thing as the other generator.  The inverter system 
throws an error, the generator is taken offline, and the generator rpm go up.
-If I manually manipulate the throttle not he generator lower, then the 
inverter re-engages.

What the heck could this be?  I don’t want to fry the borrowed generator, but 
we can’t systematically bypass the inverter, and the house requires the power.

Ron Young
earthRight - Solareagle
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics weird behavior

[Ron Young]

Looks good on mine William, firmware is 3.15.1 but probably out of date. The 
Gateway is Offline and so it’s probably not valid indication anyway. I’ve given 
up on OpticsRE. I’ve spent so much time updating firmware and trying to debug 
issues that it makes no sense to spend any more time on it. 

Ron





> On Jun 27, 2017, at 8:40 AM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Friends:
>  
> I have noticed something strange in Outback Optics.  On my systems, the setup 
> has lost information about the model number of all inverters.  Outback tech 
> support has been stripped of many access privileges so they can’t help me 
> trouble shoot this.  
>  
> I am asking if anyone of you with Optics systems if you can check to see if 
> your inverters have a model number set in the device registration screen.  
> This is accessed by clicking device map and then clicking on any inverter 
> icon.  
>  
> Your feedback will be most helpful, and if you have this problem, you will 
> want to know.
>  
> I have attached a screen shot of the pop-up showing the problem.  Scroll to 
> the bottom of this message for the link.
>  
> Thanks in advance,
>  
> William Miller
>  
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
>  
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[RE-wrenches] Tree lights

[Ron Young]

Hi Wrenches, I have a client that wants to light up trees in his yard using 
solar packages in each tree. Haven’t seen this except for novelty lights. This 
client wants something sturdy & long lasting. Has anyone done this or have 
suggestions other than parting together the individual components? Thanks!

Ron Young
earthRight Solar
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[RE-wrenches] PV ratings

[Ron Young]

Hi Wrenches, anyone have a link to a recent study on PV ratings, solar panel 
performance type data? Something within the last two years? Many thanks!

Ron Young
earthRight Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace T220

[Ron Young]

Great memory Allan! Thanks.

Ron

> On Oct 25, 2016, at 9:32 PM, Allan Sindelar  wrote:
> 
> Ron,
> Shooting from memory here... the T220 was rated at 2800 watts max, as 
> compared to the later T240, which is rated at 3900 watts continuous. At 240 
> VAC 2800W is just a bit over 10A. Given that use as a balancing 
> autotransformer for a generator is continuous duty, this capacity rating is 
> most likely due to how much heat it can tolerate. Given this the 15A fusing 
> seems quite appropriate and I wouldn't change it. 
> Allan
> 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@sindelarsolar.com 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> 505 780-2738 cell
> 
>  
> On 10/25/2016 5:53 PM, RM You wrote:
>> Hi Wrenches, looking for help from someone who remembers the old T220 
>> Autotransformer from Trace. I have a used one and it came with built in 15a 
>> fuses which seem small. I’m wondering if the size of the transformer 
>> actually changed with the T240 subsequent version or if the 25a breakers in 
>> the T240 were just considered a more acceptable design component for the 
>> time. Bottom line is would it be advisable to change out the built in 15a 
>> for a higher rating to use this as a balancing transformer on 240v output 
>> from a generator.
>> 
>> Ron
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos CU200 location

[Ron Young]

Agreed, just needs to be somewhere in the system. I have mine mounted next to 
the pressure tank in the house. I have also mounted them right at the well top 
in a protected space.

Ron
earthRight Solar

> On Apr 9, 2016, at 7:58 PM, Mac Lewis  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jay, 
> 
> I think it just needs to be somewhere in the system.  How far is the total 
> wire run?  I typically put them near the array because the pole is a 
> convenient mount.  The farthest distance I've done was about 800' between the 
> Cu200 and the pump and it worked fine.
> 
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Jerry Shafer  > wrote:
> We have them located close to the array but thats inpart due to the location, 
> l have several used in tanks not just in the well.
> 
> On Apr 9, 2016 10:34 AM, "jay"  > wrote:
> HI All,
> 
> Does anyone know where the CU-200 has to be located?
> 
> I’m trying to determine if it matters if the CU200 be closer to the pump or 
> not?
> 
> I have a location where there is some theft possibility so if I can mount it 
> 200’ away where the PV is that would help.
> But the manual isn’t any help.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> jay
> 
> Peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] panel failure

[Ron Young]

Thanks Allan, I was wondering about the lack of response as this group is 
always very helpful. One begins to suspect the phantom cause, i.e. the rest of 
the story that wasn’t told to us by the customer. It happens from time to time 
;-)

Ron

> On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:07 PM, Allan Sindelar  wrote:
> 
> Ron, 
> The lack of response may indeed be your answer. I didn't reply because it 
> hasn't happened on my watch and I have no idea what would cause what you 
> describe. 
> Allan
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You  wrote:
>> 
>> Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause this 
>> problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of and the 
>> panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels just quit. 
>> Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure.
>> 
>> Ron
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old 
>>> (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed 
>>> in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled 
>>> the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery 
>>> with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas 
>>> what could be causing this anomaly?
>>> 
>>> Ron Young
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQFlex

[Ron Young]

Awesome responses thank you! And yes I did mix up the IO-101 operating voltage 
with the CU200. 

So because efficiency is important we’ll keep the CU200 in the system. 

Client wants a large pressure tank because of garden irrigation so we're 
looking at an 86 gallon model so pump will not cycle as frequently and pump 
efficiency will optimize with longer running times. Aside from bulk and weight 
problems of the tank I don’t foresee any other issues. Appreciate comments if 
otherwise.

Ron Young

On Oct 20, 2014, at 7:55 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

> "If you are not going to be using a PV-direct arrangement, there is  not much 
> advantage in using the Flex pumps."
>  
> 
> except efficiency. i have two wells at home and the grundfos sqflex pumps 50' 
> of additional head at the same flow rate, using 30% less energy as compared 
> to the standard, 3/4 hp pump down the other hole..
>  
> and yes, the cu200's label says up to 240 vac is fine.
> as long as he has it, why not run the power through it?
>  
> todd
>  
>  
> 
> 
> On Monday, October 20, 2014 7:24pm, "Brian Teitelbaum" 
>  said:
> 
> > Hi Ron,
> > 
> > What you describe with using a pressure switch and pressure tank, and just
> > running the pump with 240 VAC, is fine. You don't need the CU-200 to do
> > any of that, if all you are doing is switching AC. The diagnostics is
> > nice, but probably not worth the cost in this kind of simple setup.
> > 
> > One issue though. The SQFlex pumps are not exactly instant-on. There is a
> > slight delay between when power is applied and the pump starts. Just make
> > sure that you use a large enough pressure tank to keep the pressure from
> > dropping too far before the pump starts filling it. You may have to raise
> > the starting pressure on the switch a little above where you set the
> > minimum pressure, to let it fall some at startup.
> > 
> > When it becomes time to replace the pump (hopefully many years from now),
> > I would just go with a Grundfos SQ straight AC pump instead of the Flex
> > model. If you are not going to be using a PV-direct arrangement, there is
> > not much advantage in using the Flex pumps.
> > 
> > Brian Teitelbaum
> > AEE solar
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] wood gasification to grid

[Ron Young]

The comments are interesting and helpful. This is a proposed college research 
project that will be sponsored by a grant and all these bridges would have to 
be crossed. 

Ron

On Sep 21, 2014, at 2:08 AM, RE Ellison  wrote:

> The inverter portion of the process at this point in time would be
> relatively east to do. That's not saying that the inverter will like the
> power quality. Most generators will not put out smooth enough power to allow
> an inverter to connect. The engines that I have seen running on wood gas
> were nowhere near smooth enough to meet an inverters interconnect standards.
> 
> 
> After all that you get to deal with the regulatory hoops and I doubt that
> would be easy.
> 
> Just some thoughts.
> Bob Ellison
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of Ron Young
> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 8:51 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] wood gasification to grid
> 
> I have a customer who wants to use a 50kw generator converted to wood
> gasification to tie into the grid. Any recommendations on the type of grid
> tie gear that will be appropriate? It's a preliminary inquiry but I'm
> guessing a 240v output from the generator, single phase but may be 3ph. I
> see Solectria and SatCon make inverters in this range. Any suggestions
> appreciated
> 
> Ron Young
> 
> 
> 
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[RE-wrenches] wood gasification to grid

[Ron Young]

I have a customer who wants to use a 50kw generator converted to wood 
gasification to tie into the grid. Any recommendations on the type of grid tie 
gear that will be appropriate? It’s a preliminary inquiry but I’m guessing a 
240v output from the generator, single phase but may be 3ph. I see Solectria 
and SatCon make inverters in this range. Any suggestions appreciated

Ron Young



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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV panel backing

[Ron Young]

Thanks everyone for your insightful replies, have passed them on to the 
customer with comments. He only wants to try and get another 6 mo. out of the 
panel until he can afford to replace it; and as always there are circumstances 
to consider. Unfortunately his shop burned due to arson and no insurance 
coverage so money is tight.

Ron

On Sep 1, 2014, at 4:30 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

> I've done patch jobs on little 12 v systems, and had them hold up  for many 
> years, but I concur,  I wouldn't try that at higher PV voltages.
> Silicon sealant actually is slightly conductive, at least according to other 
> Wrenches when this subject came up several years back.
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 9/1/2014 2:43 PM, Martin Herzfeld wrote:
>> 
>> I concur with Dan.  Unless a controlled environment, a patch job on a module 
>> with a customer is wrong on so many levels.
>> 
>> Martin Herzfeld
>> California Solar Contractor License  #833782
>> Trenching Contractor, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
>> 
>> UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
>> Principal Contract Solar Technical Inspector
>> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer
>> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
>> Project Contractor & Consultant
>> 
>> Telephone & Text: 510-243-0190
>> 
>> Ron,
>> 
>> It's been my experience the only adhesives that work reliably on PV 
>> backsheets are those designed for the purpose, such as Dow 804 et. al..  
>> Substances such as silicone sealant, tool polymerics, and others will appear 
>> to be suitable when first applied, but they eventually peel loose over a 
>> period of 1-5 years.
>> 
>> Issue #2: Heat of sufficient temperature to melt the backsheet may also have 
>> been hot enough to affect solder joints on and among the cells.  
>> Crystallized solder connections will conduct current, but are more 
>> resistive, and eventually will degrade due to heating and cooling, leading 
>> to overheating and eventual failure.  Then too there's a possibility of 
>> micro-fractures created in the cells due to the heat, which take time to 
>> become apparent, but will also cause a PV module to quit working .. or at 
>> least quit working at its rated specifications.
>> 
>> Issue #3:  When PV are manufactured, the layers at a minimum are 
>> manufactured from tempered glass, EVA, cells and buss, EVA, then the 
>> backsheet (tedlar, kevlar, etc.), in that order.  The module is assembled 
>> under conditions of heat and vacuum.  With the backsheet melted, the 
>> environmental integrity of the laminate has been compromised, allowing 
>> ambient humidity into the PV.  While it may be functional now, long-term 
>> prospects for continued proper operation are questionable at best.
>> 
>> Unless there's a pressing reason to try to salvage the module, it's better 
>> to replace it.
>> 
>> Dan Lepinski
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, 8/31/14, Ron Young  wrote:
>> 
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV panel backing
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Date: Sunday, August 31, 2014, 6:32 AM
>> 
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> 
>> I have an installation of 165w PV on a pole mount that was exposed to a fire 
>> from the rear when the customers shop burned. 6 of the 10 panels survived 
>> with only replacement of the MC4 plugs required but one of the panels that 
>> is still functioning had the rear coating melted off. The cells and 
>> electrical grid still function. Can anyone recommend a replacement coating 
>> that may salvage this panel for a few more years. I know if left exposed it 
>> will soon deteriorate but am wondering if some kind of commonly available 
>> non conductive rubberized or latex type of coating might do the job?
>> 
>> Ron Young
>> 
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[RE-wrenches] PV panel backing

[Ron Young]

Hello Wrenches,
I have an installation of 165w PV on a pole mount that was exposed to a fire 
from the rear when the customers shop burned. 6 of the 10 panels survived with 
only replacement of the MC4 plugs required but one of the panels that is still 
functioning had the rear coating melted off. The cells and electrical grid 
still function. Can anyone recommend a replacement coating that may salvage 
this panel for a few more years. I know if left exposed it will soon 
deteriorate but am wondering if some kind of commonly available non conductive 
rubberized or latex type of coating might do the job?

Ron Young
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Re: [RE-wrenches] controllers

[Ron Young]

The Midnite Kid looks like the ticket but didn't realize it was shipping yet. I 
like the Classics so if the Kid is a chip off the old block then I'll go with 
it for sure.

Ron

On 2014-02-21, at 1:41 PM, Jason Andrade  
wrote:

> I recieved a Kid controller and the Whizbang Jr a couple off weeks ago and
> so far it is a nice little unit, I haven't put it under any big charging yet
> 
> but I am a Midnite user and it is what you would expect from Midnite. I am
> going to try the Whizbanger on the classic as it is what charges the
> batteries for my house this weekend.
> 
> Jason 
> 
> West Coast Sustainables
> Jason Andrade
> C-46# 974647
> (530) 410-4745 Cell
> (530) 241-7498 Office
> (530) 348-5301 Fax
> ja...@westcoastsustainables.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
> re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:45 AM
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 7, Issue 81
> 
> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
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> 
> 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] controllers
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> 
> Have you looked at the new controller from Midnite, the KID, 30 amp.
> 
> jay
> On Feb 20, 2014, at 3:49 PM, RM You wrote:
> 
>> Anybody have any recommendations for a 45a MPPT controller other than
> Morningstar? I?ve had absolutely miserable tech support from Morningstar so
> I want to drop the line but I need something that will handle 2 60 cell
> modules in the 250w range for off grid applications. I use a Blue Sky for
> single panels and a Midnite Classic for three or more but in the middle the
> only one I can see is the Morningstar. Outback, Midnite and Xantrex are all
> overkill for just a couple of panels unless they want to expand in the
> future. 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SWWP Whisper 200 - Looking for a Short to Ground

[Ron Young]

Hi Matt, I have a very similar (maybe identical) problem with a Whisper 200 
that I've been trying to solve for several weeks. When you say that it's not 
performing what exactly do you mean?

My problem surfaced following a lightning storm and everything pointed to the 
controller. I replaced the controller with a Clipper & Classic. The turbine 
still just spins slowly as if the brake switch was on and only ramps up when 
leads are removed to the controller. I've double checked the wiring, dropped 
the turbine and checked the brushes, stator, connections etc. everything checks 
out. The batteries are weak but still showing acceptable voltage above 48v. I'm 
also at a loss. I've had a couple of discussions with the guys at renewable 
energy supplies and they seem to be knowledgeable but I still can't sort it 
out. Anyway maybe give these guys a call: 
http://renewableenergysupplies.net/index.html

Will be interested to hear how you make out.

Ron Young

On 2013-10-14, at 5:38 PM, Matt Sherald  wrote:

> I've got a Whisper that's not performing and I'm putting this out to the 
> group in hopes that someone has had a similiar dilemma.
> 
> My line to line voltage measurements are the same between the three phases.  
> However, my line to ground measurements are consistent across only two of the 
> phase-ground combinations.  The third phase appears to be shorting to ground.
> 
> I had the tower down and took the machine off to check the split bolt 
> connections at the top of the tower for wear/rubbing.  The down tower wiring 
> checks out.  I opened the wire access on the machine to double check wire 
> insulation and the wire nut connections.  I unbolted the slip rings and 
> checked for any sign of a smoking gun there.  Nothing jumped out at me during 
> the inspection and I'm curious if it might be in the spinner assembly.
> 
> With no tech support to turn to I am hoping that someone in the Wrench 
> community might have had a similiar conundrum at one time.  I'd appreciate 
> hearing from you if you have.
> 
> Many thanks in advance. 
> 
> 
> 
> Matt Sherald 
> PIMBY: Power In My BackYard 
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 
> m...@getpimby.com 
> (304) 704-5943 
> 
> www.getpimby.blogspot.com 
> www.getpimby.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] question about pole mount interconnection

[Ron Young]

Always value the input of the group William, that's why I ask for it but I 
admit I am leaning towards the conduit between poles idea. What has your 
practice been? Kirpal, your points are valid aside from cost which is the big 
nut to crack these days it seems. Ray, would love to have gone multi-pole, 
wasn't aware of those - alas, the single pole mounts are already enroute. 

Ron

On 2013-10-07, at 8:32 PM, William Miller  wrote:

> Ron:
> 
> Sounds like you have already reached a conclusion.  Good luck!
> 
> William
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron @
> earthRight Solar
> Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 8:08 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] question about pole mount interconnection
> 
> Hi Wrenches, I am installing six 8 panel pole mounts in a grid tied system.
> My question is about preference for cable run between the poles. I am
> interested in industry best practices. I have been told that running conduit
> between the poles, i.e. along the axis, will hold the cabling but the poles
> of course must be precisely aligned. The alternative is to run cabling down
> the poles, underground and up the next pole. This is wasteful of materials,
> expensive to the client and in my view presents as many safety concerns as
> the other option. Hope to hear some ideas.
> 
> Ron
> _
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Re: [RE-wrenches] advice on testing turbine on tower

[Ron Young]

Hi Jeremy, I'm strongly suspecting that there is a winding short. What do you 
mean by upper casting assy? Do you mean the whole turbine unit? If so, who 
supplies them now?

Ron

On 2013-09-08, at 7:51 PM, All Solar  wrote:

> I have had the same problem recently. 
> Make sure you check phase to ground voltage not just phase to phase. 
> I had a whisper 100 that had the exact symptom and I replaced the controller 
> with one of the new  Luminous RE units. The old controller actually checked 
> out fine on a known good turbine!
> Waiting on an upper casting assy now. One of the windings is apparently 
> shorted
> 
> Jeremy
> All Solar 
> Penrose CO
> 
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
> 
> On Sep 8, 2013, at 7:14 PM, Ron Young  wrote:
> 
>> I have a client with a Whisper 200 that failed recently. It was shortly 
>> after a severe lightning storm so the assumption was that the controller got 
>> fried. The wind turbine would not spin, it was as if the brake was on - if 
>> you know the Whisper, the brake is electrical, basically a shorting of the 
>> three phases. When the turbine was disconnected from the controller it would 
>> spin up and produce voltage at the leads. So the controller was replaced 
>> with a Clipper and Classic and the same problem still exists. I have 
>> resisted pulling the turbine down as it is a complicated sidehill 
>> installation but it looks like it will have to be done. Before I do that I 
>> thought I'd throw this out into the Wrenches community to see if anyone 
>> could offer suggestions. My conclusion is that there is some kind of short 
>> in the electronics in the turbine that only shows up when it is under load, 
>> i.e. has a battery connection. Suggestions, ideas? 
>> 
>> If the turbine is fried I guess I'll be looking for another turbine that 
>> would work on the 80' tower installation already in place, I know SWWP has 
>> folded it's tent.
>> 
>> Ron Young
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] advice on testing turbine on tower

[Ron Young]

Thanks Ryan, there is a new Midnite arrestor in the Clipper and I don't think 
that is the prob. but will check. There are two Delta LA's in the main Outback 
panel and I don't think they're involved.

Ron

On 2013-09-08, at 6:24 PM, Synergy Renewable Systems 
 wrote:

> Is there a lightning arrestor of any kind installed?  If so, check for 
> continuity (ohm out) between the leads of it; there should be none.  If there 
> is continuity the device can be replaced and the turbine will be up and 
> running.
> 
> If the arrestors get fried, they can act like a shunt across the 3 phases of 
> turbines which acts like a magnetic brake.
> 
> My 2cents.
> 
> Ryan Harkins
> Synergy Renewable Systems, LLC
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 8, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Ron Young  wrote:
> 
>> I have a client with a Whisper 200 that failed recently. It was shortly 
>> after a severe lightning storm so the assumption was that the controller got 
>> fried. The wind turbine would not spin, it was as if the brake was on - if 
>> you know the Whisper, the brake is electrical, basically a shorting of the 
>> three phases. When the turbine was disconnected from the controller it would 
>> spin up and produce voltage at the leads. So the controller was replaced 
>> with a Clipper and Classic and the same problem still exists. I have 
>> resisted pulling the turbine down as it is a complicated sidehill 
>> installation but it looks like it will have to be done. Before I do that I 
>> thought I'd throw this out into the Wrenches community to see if anyone 
>> could offer suggestions. My conclusion is that there is some kind of short 
>> in the electronics in the turbine that only shows up when it is under load, 
>> i.e. has a battery connection. Suggestions, ideas? 
>> 
>> If the turbine is fried I guess I'll be looking for another turbine that 
>> would work on the 80' tower installation already in place, I know SWWP has 
>> folded it's tent.
>> 
>> Ron Young
>> 
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[RE-wrenches] advice on testing turbine on tower

[Ron Young]

I have a client with a Whisper 200 that failed recently. It was shortly after a 
severe lightning storm so the assumption was that the controller got fried. The 
wind turbine would not spin, it was as if the brake was on - if you know the 
Whisper, the brake is electrical, basically a shorting of the three phases. 
When the turbine was disconnected from the controller it would spin up and 
produce voltage at the leads. So the controller was replaced with a Clipper and 
Classic and the same problem still exists. I have resisted pulling the turbine 
down as it is a complicated sidehill installation but it looks like it will 
have to be done. Before I do that I thought I'd throw this out into the 
Wrenches community to see if anyone could offer suggestions. My conclusion is 
that there is some kind of short in the electronics in the turbine that only 
shows up when it is under load, i.e. has a battery connection. Suggestions, 
ideas? 

If the turbine is fried I guess I'll be looking for another turbine that would 
work on the 80' tower installation already in place, I know SWWP has folded 
it's tent.

Ron Young

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Turbine Parts

[Ron Young]

Look forward to your evaluation Jeremy. I have a number of 100's & 200's in the 
field. I'm currently replacing a failed 200 controller with a Midnite Clipper & 
Classic 200 and am hoping the increase in performance advertised by Midnite 
will actually materialize and help to offset the significant increase in cost.

Ron Young
earthRight Solar

On 2013-07-08, at 8:50 PM, All Solar  wrote:

> 
> I will be ordering a new controller for the WHI100/200 made by Luminous RE 
> out of India. There is a dealer in Colorado. 
> I can report on its performance after its been in for a while. 
> Maybe we have a source now!
> 
> Jeremy
> All Solar
> 
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] not sure what's going on here

[Ron Young]

Hello all and thank you for the illuminating replies. One thing that 
immediately comes to mind is that I (we) are relying on the clients description 
of what is going on. I have not visited the site but it looks like it's in the 
cards as this seems like it could be a problem with several moving parts. The 
description I received from the owner is as follows:

1/ one of the 4 modules is only putting out about 13 volts. This is a 
persistent condition and does not go away. So from this I conclude that diodes 
have failed.
2/ the remaining 3 modules connected to the 3024i operate in a normal voltage 
range but after about 15 minutes drop to around 13 volts. Once disconnected 
from the controller then reconnected this condition repeats: normal then 
dropout after about 15 min. So from this I conclude that either the firmware is 
at fault or there is another cause as suggested by Dan "heating of the PV is 
causing one or more bypass diodes in one or more of the remaining
modules to fail short intermittently".

I'll try and work out a site visit to chase this one down and report back. I've 
also emailed Rick at Blue Sky. Once again thanks for the considered responses.

Ron Young

On 2013-05-12, at 10:22 AM, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" 
 wrote:

> 
> I have a tendency to read between the lines and try and perceive things 
> unstated. Just my nature. I doubt that the module removed from the circuit 
> stays at 13Vdc. Ron said "...the normal voltages return but drop again in 
> about 15 min". Because of the 3024 software issue I think this is affecting 
> all modules. Also, " the individual output from each panel when unhooked and 
> tested in full sun show about 35v". Each meaning the 3 or all 4? Ron, please 
> clarify this. Have you been to the site or was this the report from the owner?
> 
> Anyone that says, "41 years in solar energy …" is bound to be an enlightened, 
> albeit aged fellow. Wear it as a badge. Actually the reference was in general 
> as I view most of us battery wrenches as graybeards.
> 
> Larry 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 12, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Exeltech  wrote:
> 
> Hello Larry,
> 
> A firmware upgrade may address some aspects of the issue, and
> is certainly a recommendation, but it doesn't account for the
> one PV that exhibits 13Vdc output when it's completely out of
> the circuit.
> 
> That characteristic clearly exemplifies a failure within the PV
> module itself.
> 
> It's entirely possible more than one failure mechanism is involved
> here, such as something within the PV, and other that's related
> to the firmware.  Multiple-issue failures are some of the most
> frustrating and challenging of all fault analyses.  Then add
> distance to the equation 
> 
> 
> Thanks too for the reference to "aged".
> 
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 5/12/13, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
>  wrote:
> 
>> From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] not sure what's going on here
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Date: Sunday, May 12, 2013, 9:30 AM
>> Fellow Wrenches,
>> 
>> I realize that many of you are offering your time and
>> comments in a genuine effort to help Ron, however, the
>> problem he described is the EXACT behavior of all early
>> 3024i controllers. This happened with overloaded controllers
>> operating in 24 to 12 downconversion, just like in this
>> case. When the 3024 would reach current limiting, the
>> controller will lock itself to half the input voltage.
>> Because high power is still available, the controller would
>> still function and many did not even know they had a
>> problem. By disconnecting PV and battery and reconnecting,
>> the 3024 will reboot and the problem will not occur again
>> until current limit is reached. Note that this only happens
>> when using high voltage PV and down converting to 12Vdc.
>> 
>> Blue Sky Energy is our #1 selling controller and we have
>> installed over 500 3024i's and 3024iL's. When I first
>> discovered this issue and reported it, Rick at Blue Sky was
>> able to duplicate it and made appropriate changes. Upgrading
>> firmware always corrected the issue.  So, with respect
>> to the many aged but wonderful minds on this list, I highly
>> suggest the controller upgrade first. At the very least,
>> reboot the controller in the morning and observe as it
>> reaches the limit.
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] question about Xantrex AGS

[Ron Young]

I just did a Google on them and found them pretty quick:
http://www.flightsystems.com/
Customer Service 800-403-3728 | FAX 800-333-9912
All other calls 717-932-9900 | Fax 717-932-9925 
505 Fishing Creek Rd. Lewisberry, PA 17339

Ron

On 2012-08-16, at 6:52 PM, bob ellison  wrote:

> How do I contact “Flight Systems” I have a customer with a blown board from a 
> Hardy he would like to get rebuilt.
>  
> Thanks,
> Bob Ellison
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 8:57 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] question about Xantrex AGS
>  
> Ron,
> If your client wants to keep the Onan, Flight Systems can rebuild the board 
> for a small fee. I have used them for other generator controllers and they 
> are very reasonable.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Ron @ earthRight Solar 
>  wrote:
> Hi Wrenches,
>  
> I have a client that has burned up two control boards on an Onan-Cummings 5.5 
> kw propane generator. The system includes an XW 6048 inverter, XW MPPT c.c., 
> and the Onan generator. System has worked well for several years but recently 
> burned up the control board on the Onan. Client decided to purchase a new 
> Onan instead of paying $1k for a new control board. The new Onan lasted one 
> week and the same result, control board fried. He is consulting with me at 
> this point - I didn't supply any of this equpt. - and Onan supplier is being 
> completely unhelpful. I'm trying to do a little detective work here and 
> discover the cause of the problem. I'm wondering if it could be the XW-AGS 
> possibly sending too high voltage to the Onan controller. Has anyone had 
> issues with these? Any suggestions?
>  
> Ron Young
>  
> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
>  
> Williams Lake, BC
> V2G 2A3
>  
> 
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>  
> -- 
> Chris Mason
> President, Comet Systems Ltd
> www.cometenergysystems.com
> Cell: 264.235.5670
> Skype: netconcepts
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar

[Ron Young]

I have one customer that has built his own system using an old woodstove with a 
series of buried interconnecting 4" air pipes and small computer fans that he 
picked up in a surplus store. It needs some tlc on a regular basis but at 4500' 
in the mountains of western British Columbia (i.e. pretty far north) he has 
tomatoes growing in his greenhouse in October. But I'm looking for systems that 
are pre-packaged like the Central Boiler brand that David Katz recommended and 
any specific experiences with power consumption and the viability of it 
off-grid.

Ron Young

On 2012-07-05, at 4:24 PM, R Ray Walters wrote:

> It definitely can work;  the old house I'm in now has a 100 yr old radiator 
> system (not steam) that has 2-1/2" main lines. No pumps.  Every single pipe 
> in the system has a slight  fall all the way to the boiler in the basement.
> 
> Ray
> 
> On Jul 5, 2012, at 6:14 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
>> Seems I once ran into an off grid customer that had an outdoor wood boiler 
>> set up energy free.. the boiler itself is physically located below (Down 
>> hill) from the house and is plumbed with like 2" Pex so it uses gravity to 
>> circulate and a smoke stack tall enough (and insulated) to conjure a decent 
>> draft. they also have hot water lines running out to the diesel gen set for 
>> co generating heat. (Both for gen set block heating and for dumping exhaust 
>> heat). For thermal storage, they have an old dairy bulk tank in a walled off 
>> room with truck radiators in the tank connected to manifolds out side the 
>> room. the whole room was filled with recycled styrofoam peanuts. the tank 
>> loop is connected to the boiler, a kitchen wood stove and a radiant slab, 
>> the radiator manifolds are connected closed loop to SHW on the roof and 
>> domestic hot water. Yes, he's an old Vermont Yankee farmer.
>> 
>> db
>> 
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
>> NABCEP #092907-44
>> 
>> 
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar
>> From: David Katz 
>> Date: Wed, July 04, 2012 11:05 pm
>> To: RE-wrenches , RE-wrenches
>> 
>> 
>> I have a Central Boiler brand of outdoor wood furnace.  It has an electric 
>> damper that has to be powered whenever the fire is burning, which draws 
>> about 50 watts and a small circulator pump that draws a bit less than 100 
>> watts.
>> I stopped using it years ago because it consumed so much wood, but it worked 
>> great.  It was a great way to get rid of pallets.
>> Unfortunately it was most needed whenever there was not much sun, so it 
>> definitely increased generator run time.
>> David Katz
>> 
>> Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!
>> 
>> 
>> - Reply message -
>> From: "Ron @ earthRight Solar" 
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar
>> Date: Wed, Jul 4, 2012 4:48 pm
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Wrenches,
>> 
>> Have a client who wants to install an outdoor wood furnace for hydronic 
>> heating in his shop and home. Wondering if any have had experience with 
>> these. It seems like an intensive off-grid load because of fans and/or 
>> pumps. Any experience or model recommendations is appreciated, thanks!
>> 
>> Ron Young
>> earthRight - Solareagle
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Re: [RE-wrenches] broken glass

[Ron Young]

I bought a few broken modules at a killer price a few years ago. I knew their 
would be considerably reduced output but the price was right. They were 
shattered but all the glass was in place. I tried Krylon spray, absolutely 
useless, had to scrape it off. Tried plexiglass - it discoloured, and lexan. 
Lexan was the best solution but it was still a challenge to weather seal the 
panel. Using a varathane based sealant I adhered the lexan to the panel frame, 
didn't hold. The only workable solution I found was to build a frame around the 
frame and attach the lexan. Altogether too much trouble, especially with the 
price of PV now. BTW, one of these modules was a Sanyo HIP 190. As for the 
glazier solution - on some PV modules I'm pretty sure the glass is bonded to 
the cell surface in some fashion so picking off the old glass is not an option.

Ron Young


On 2012-04-15, at 8:37 AM, Michael Gullo wrote:

> Esteemed group:
>  
> I have a customer who called this week stating that their son hit a golf ball 
> in the backyard up on the roof and shattered one of the solar modules. The 
> system was installed in 2005 and the module is a Sanyo HIP-190BA19. I have 
> not been able to find a replacement as most sites list the module as 
> discontinued. The module is still functioning and I was wondering if anyone 
> has taken a module to a glazier for a glass replacement? Any other solutions 
> are welcome. Thanks.
>  
> Mike
> Michael Gullo
> Solar Solutions LLC
> Marlton, NJ
> NJ Electrical Lic #16758
> NABCEP Certified Installer
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Re: [RE-wrenches] real world example - fuel saving with battery bank

[Ron Young]

Thanks for the offer Chris & Dan, I'll contact you off list when I have more 
info. By load profile or pattern I assume you & Maverick are simply referring 
to the hourly energy use on a 24 hour basis - or weekly basis? I know that 
there is no one at the sites that can provide that but maybe I'll send them 
something like a TED or an Elite meter and get them to clip it on to their 
genset output for a week then record the data and send it back.

Ron

On 2012-04-14, at 5:49 AM, Chris Mason wrote:

> Ron,
> If you send me the load profile, insolation (or location), fuel price, 
> generator and PV equipment specifications, I will send you back an analysis 
> of the design options which will show the savings very clearly. It will also 
> tell you the duty cycle for the generator and the levelized cost of energy 
> for each scenario. This should help you to identify the right combination of 
> equipment and help close the deal.
> 
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 12:17 AM, Ron Young  wrote:
> Hi Wrenches,
> I'm putting together a proposal for a national company that has a few remote 
> installations. They are looking for options for saving generator run-time 
> using an inverter-charger/battery combo with the existing gensets. Does 
> anyone have any real world examples of realized fuel savings in this type of 
> scenario? They run generators 24/7 and a lot of the dusk to dawn energy 
> requirement is well below the daytime needs. Appreciate any ideas or examples.
> 
> Ron Young
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> 
> -- 
> Chris Mason
> President, Comet Systems Ltd
> mas...@cometsystems.co
> www.cometsystems.co
> Cell: 264.235.5670
> Int: +1305.767.2094
> Skype: netconcepts
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[RE-wrenches] real world example - fuel saving with battery bank

[Ron Young]

Hi Wrenches, 
I'm putting together a proposal for a national company that has a few remote 
installations. They are looking for options for saving generator run-time using 
an inverter-charger/battery combo with the existing gensets. Does anyone have 
any real world examples of realized fuel savings in this type of scenario? They 
run generators 24/7 and a lot of the dusk to dawn energy requirement is well 
below the daytime needs. Appreciate any ideas or examples.

Ron Young
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[RE-wrenches] Adding acid to a battery

[Ron Young]

A client purchased a set of batteries (not from me) and purchased BOS from me. 
The batteries are a double walled type and it appears that one must have fallen 
over during shipment or was improperly filled at the factory and some of the 
electrolyte leaked into the space between inner and outer wall. The only 
solution was to remove the inner battery cells and dump the acid from the case. 
A small amount (about a quart) of acid was replaced (1.26 s.g. automotive 
battery acid) and then topped up with distilled water. The battery performs 
fine but one cell appears to have a lower overall s.g. than the rest (1.45 vs. 
1.65) . This has shown up over time. 

Question: has anyone added acid to a battery to raise the s.g. Is this an 
acceptable option or totally off the wall. These batteries still appear to have 
full capacity and to replace the single problem battery will be very expensive.

Ron
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Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation

[Ron Young]

You're correct Larry, my apologies. Been burning the candle at both ends. 
Thanks for your input.

On 2011-11-16, at 9:04 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

> Ron, you have misquoted me so yes you are wrong. It is not about getting to 
> 32 volts. Go read it again.
> 
> On Nov 16, 2011, at 12:20 AM, Ron Young wrote:
> 
>> Hi Daryl. I've got other KS25's in hybrid systems (wind gen & solar) that 
>> seem to do fine over the last several years. The Ouback 3524 has an 85 amp 
>> charger.  There was no problem getting to 32 v and holding it for eight 
>> hours. This has been done twice now.  Larry and others attribute the ability 
>> to get to 32v to a sulphated battery condition and I'm thinking that a 
>> healthy battery could get to 32v as well, especially one that's been 
>> regularly EQ'd... am I wrong?
>> 
>> I'm listening to every opinion here and trying to sort it out but I think 
>> John may be on the right track with an intermittent failure of one cell. I 
>> just can't seem to find it.
>> 
>> Ron Young
>> 
>> On 2011-11-13, at 3:51 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
>> 
>>> Ron,
>>> What comes to mind for me is that Surrette 5000 series batteries like
>>> to have a regular charge of C10.  KS25 cells are rated for 1350 ah,
>>> creating a need for a somewhat regularly occurring charge of 135 amps.
>>> I do believe the batteries are not ever getting that, except for very
>>> rare occasions. We have seen this before in undersized systems.
>>> Is the bulk charge set to 29.6? I would try a couple more eq's over the
>>> next month to loosen likely sulfation. Get it up to as close to 32
>>> volts as possible and taper the charge down, then eq at that voltage
>>> for four or five hours, even more if the client will do it.
>>> That would be how we would deal with this. It does seem ultimately to
>>> be sulfation that is the problem.
>>> 
>>> Daryl DeJoy
>>> NABCEP Certified PV installer
>>> Penobscot Solar Design
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Folks, this one really has me puzzled. The client has done regular two
>>>> hour EQ's, at least once a month. When did a site visit and I topped up
>>>> the electrolyte (they'd been starving the batteries for water but always
>>>> just above the plates) the problem seemed to go away. They were satisfied
>>>> that the problem was solved but I wasn't and I told them what I had been
>>>> hearing from this group - essentially that the batteries needed a deep EQ,
>>>> discharge, recharge and EQ again two or three times to scrub the
>>>> sulphates. They declined until just a few days ago when they said the
>>>> rapid voltage drop was back. Here's a quote:
>>>> 
>>>> We had another rapid voltage loss this morning ---it was 25.2 when we got
>>>> up and it dropped rapidly to 22.8.  We turned on the generator and charged
>>>> the batteries until our display showed 30.2  for awhile with the generator
>>>> running.  We turned off the generator and the voltage settled at about
>>>> 26.4.  We turned off all loads and wind and solar.
>>>> 
>>>> At 9.15 our batteries were at 26.4
>>>> At 9:16 we turned on an 8W light bulb, a1600W hair dryer, and a 1.5HP
>>>> (120V 5.75A) shop vac
>>>> The display showed a load of 1.9kw
>>>> At 9:40 the inverter shut down---display showed batteries at 18.4
>>>> By 9.47 the display showed the batteries at 25.2the solar and wind
>>>> were still shut down.
>>>> We turned everything back on (a light, Sunfrost RF16, phone)  and all
>>>> seems to be normal.
>>>> 
>>>> They agreed to do the EQ process but only have a 3kw generator so we
>>>> started with 8 hours with the EQ voltage set for 32v (24v system). They
>>>> completed that yesterday and here's what resulted:
>>>> 
>>>> Before starting EQ the batteries were at 25.8, hydrometer reading 1283
>>>> with temp. correction
>>>> Began EQ32.6 v
>>>>Buying 
>>>> 1.5 kw
>>>> Hour 1  32.4 v
>>>>1283  with temp. correction   Buying  1.4
>>>> Hour 2  32.4 v
>&

Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation

[Ron Young]

Hi Daryl. I've got other KS25's in hybrid systems (wind gen & solar) that seem 
to do fine over the last several years. The Ouback 3524 has an 85 amp charger.  
There was no problem getting to 32 v and holding it for eight hours. This has 
been done twice now.  Larry and others attribute the ability to get to 32v to a 
sulphated battery condition and I'm thinking that a healthy battery could get 
to 32v as well, especially one that's been regularly EQ'd... am I wrong?

I'm listening to every opinion here and trying to sort it out but I think John 
may be on the right track with an intermittent failure of one cell. I just 
can't seem to find it.

Ron Young

On 2011-11-13, at 3:51 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:

> Ron,
>  What comes to mind for me is that Surrette 5000 series batteries like
> to have a regular charge of C10.  KS25 cells are rated for 1350 ah,
> creating a need for a somewhat regularly occurring charge of 135 amps.
> I do believe the batteries are not ever getting that, except for very
> rare occasions. We have seen this before in undersized systems.
>  Is the bulk charge set to 29.6? I would try a couple more eq's over the
> next month to loosen likely sulfation. Get it up to as close to 32
> volts as possible and taper the charge down, then eq at that voltage
> for four or five hours, even more if the client will do it.
>  That would be how we would deal with this. It does seem ultimately to
> be sulfation that is the problem.
> 
> Daryl DeJoy
> NABCEP Certified PV installer
> Penobscot Solar Design
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Folks, this one really has me puzzled. The client has done regular two
>> hour EQ's, at least once a month. When did a site visit and I topped up
>> the electrolyte (they'd been starving the batteries for water but always
>> just above the plates) the problem seemed to go away. They were satisfied
>> that the problem was solved but I wasn't and I told them what I had been
>> hearing from this group - essentially that the batteries needed a deep EQ,
>> discharge, recharge and EQ again two or three times to scrub the
>> sulphates. They declined until just a few days ago when they said the
>> rapid voltage drop was back. Here's a quote:
>> 
>> We had another rapid voltage loss this morning ---it was 25.2 when we got
>> up and it dropped rapidly to 22.8.  We turned on the generator and charged
>> the batteries until our display showed 30.2  for awhile with the generator
>> running.  We turned off the generator and the voltage settled at about
>> 26.4.  We turned off all loads and wind and solar.
>> 
>> At 9.15 our batteries were at 26.4
>> At 9:16 we turned on an 8W light bulb, a1600W hair dryer, and a 1.5HP
>> (120V 5.75A) shop vac
>> The display showed a load of 1.9kw
>> At 9:40 the inverter shut down---display showed batteries at 18.4
>> By 9.47 the display showed the batteries at 25.2the solar and wind
>> were still shut down.
>> We turned everything back on (a light, Sunfrost RF16, phone)  and all
>> seems to be normal.
>> 
>> They agreed to do the EQ process but only have a 3kw generator so we
>> started with 8 hours with the EQ voltage set for 32v (24v system). They
>> completed that yesterday and here's what resulted:
>> 
>> Before starting EQ the batteries were at 25.8, hydrometer reading 1283
>> with temp. correction
>> Began EQ32.6 v
>>  Buying 
>> 1.5 kw
>> Hour 1  32.4 v
>>  1283  with temp. correction   Buying  1.4
>> Hour 2  32.4 v
>>1285  with temp. correction  Buying 1.5
>> Hour 3  32.2 v
>>  
>> Buying 1.7
>> Hour 4  32.2 v
>>1290  with temp correctionBuying 1.8
>> HOur 5 32.0 v
>>   1290   with temp correctionBuying 1.8
>> Hour 6  32.0 v
>>  Buying 
>> 1.9
>> Hour 7  31.8 v
>> 1292 with temp correctonBuying 1.9
>> Hour 8 complete---turned off Gen and turned on loads ---Batteries dropped
>> to 25.4 within 30 minutes and stayed 

Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation

[Ron Young]

Hi Larry, no amp hour meter installed yet as the customer is penny pinching. 
We're trying to solve the problem first and I've been out there twice, once to 
do general diagnostics and check all connections, try to load test the 
batteries, and so on; the second time I 'dropped in' to try a different load 
test on the batteries to see if I could replicate the problem and to resolve 
some other problems with a Whisper controller that had given up the ghost when 
disconnected & re-connected to the batteries (all precautions taken). It's a 
seven hour round trip and with time spent on the job makes for an expensive 
service call. I only charged for one call and I have to go back at least once 
more. So customer wanted to save some money on the installation of the 
TriMetric until the spring... sorry for the long winded reply. I know, it's 
false economy. So I'm thinking I'll just put the meter in and tell them to pay 
me when they feel like it. It'll help solve the problem and get some of the 
Wrenches off my back ... ;-)

Ron Young

On 2011-11-13, at 8:26 AM,  
 wrote:

> Ron,
> I stick by my evaluation as seen here: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/msg10694.html
> 
> The #1 reason for my opinion is that you can NOT drive up voltage on a 
> healthy bank that size in just 5 minutes. It is impossible with a 2500 watt 
> generator.
> 
> Here is the pertinent part from my post:
> You mentioned that the the battery drops to 24.5 in the early AM without any 
> heavy loads on. For the 4KS25 battery this equates to about 800AH at the 72 
> hour rate. Then you said that the customer ran a 2500 watt generator for 5 
> minutes and drove the voltage up to 29 volts. Here's the Ah-Ha moment: That 
> is EXACTLY the behavior of a heavily sulfated battery bank. A fast rise in 
> voltage indicates sulfation. It is impossible for that tiny generator, or any 
> charge source they own for that matter, to replace the hundreds of AH it 
> would take to drive a healthy battery up to the absorb voltage of 29 volts. 
> The bank is about 45,000 watt hours (72h rate). There would have to be over 
> 20,000 Wh removed to be at that voltage. How many Wh's are replaced in 5 
> minutes by a 2500 watt genny? I'm sure you are getting the picture. 
> 
> Also, why have you not installed a battery monitor yet? It will give you 
> "eyes" into the battery and spare countless hours of time diagnosing the 
> problem.
> 
> Larry
> 
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery
> Sulfation
> From: Ron Young 
> Date: Sat, November 12, 2011 9:57 pm
> To: RE-wrenches 
> 
> Folks, this one really has me puzzled. The client has done regular two hour 
> EQ's, at least once a month. When did a site visit and I topped up the 
> electrolyte (they'd been starving the batteries for water but always just 
> above the plates) the problem seemed to go away. They were satisfied that the 
> problem was solved but I wasn't and I told them what I had been hearing from 
> this group - essentially that the batteries needed a deep EQ, discharge, 
> recharge and EQ again two or three times to scrub the sulphates. They 
> declined until just a few days ago when they said the rapid voltage drop was 
> back. Here's a quote:
> 
> We had another rapid voltage loss this morning ---it was 25.2 when we got up 
> and it dropped rapidly to 22.8.  We turned on the generator and charged the 
> batteries until our display showed 30.2  for awhile with the generator 
> running.  We turned off the generator and the voltage settled at about 26.4.  
> We turned off all loads and wind and solar.
>   
> At 9.15 our batteries were at 26.4
> At 9:16 we turned on an 8W light bulb, a1600W hair dryer, and a 1.5HP (120V 
> 5.75A) shop vac
> The display showed a load of 1.9kw
> At 9:40 the inverter shut down---display showed batteries at 18.4
> By 9.47 the display showed the batteries at 25.2the solar and wind were 
> still shut down.
> We turned everything back on (a light, Sunfrost RF16, phone)  and all seems 
> to be normal.
> 
> They agreed to do the EQ process but only have a 3kw generator so we started 
> with 8 hours with the EQ voltage set for 32v (24v system). They completed 
> that yesterday and here's what resulted:
> 
> Before starting EQ the batteries were at 25.8, hydrometer reading 1283 with 
> temp. correction
> Began EQ32.6 v
>  Buying 1.5 kw
> Hour 1  32.4 v
> 1283  with temp. correction   

Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation

[Ron Young]

Folks, this one really has me puzzled. The client has done regular two hour 
EQ's, at least once a month. When did a site visit and I topped up the 
electrolyte (they'd been starving the batteries for water but always just above 
the plates) the problem seemed to go away. They were satisfied that the problem 
was solved but I wasn't and I told them what I had been hearing from this group 
- essentially that the batteries needed a deep EQ, discharge, recharge and EQ 
again two or three times to scrub the sulphates. They declined until just a few 
days ago when they said the rapid voltage drop was back. Here's a quote:

We had another rapid voltage loss this morning ---it was 25.2 when we got up 
and it dropped rapidly to 22.8.  We turned on the generator and charged the 
batteries until our display showed 30.2  for awhile with the generator running. 
 We turned off the generator and the voltage settled at about 26.4.  We turned 
off all loads and wind and solar.
  
At 9.15 our batteries were at 26.4
At 9:16 we turned on an 8W light bulb, a1600W hair dryer, and a 1.5HP (120V 
5.75A) shop vac
The display showed a load of 1.9kw
At 9:40 the inverter shut down---display showed batteries at 18.4
By 9.47 the display showed the batteries at 25.2the solar and wind were 
still shut down.
We turned everything back on (a light, Sunfrost RF16, phone)  and all seems to 
be normal.

They agreed to do the EQ process but only have a 3kw generator so we started 
with 8 hours with the EQ voltage set for 32v (24v system). They completed that 
yesterday and here's what resulted:

Before starting EQ the batteries were at 25.8, hydrometer reading 1283 with 
temp. correction
Began EQ32.6 v  
Buying 1.5 kw
Hour 1  32.4 v  
  1283  with temp. correction   Buying  1.4
Hour 2  32.4 v  
1285  with temp. correction  Buying 1.5
Hour 3  32.2 v  
Buying 
1.7
Hour 4  32.2 v  
1290  with temp correctionBuying 1.8
HOur 5 32.0 v   
   1290   with temp correctionBuying 1.8 
Hour 6  32.0 v  
Buying 1.9 
Hour 7  31.8 v  
 1292 with temp correctonBuying 1.9
Hour 8 complete---turned off Gen and turned on loads ---Batteries dropped to 
25.4 within 30 minutes and stayed there until this morning---fridge was 
running, telephone, internet, wool carding machine, lights.  This morning 
hydrometer reading  was at 1290.
> 


Then today I just got this email:

Just experienced another rapid voltage drop.  As soon as the voltage hits 24.8 
the voltage drops like a rock if we don't have any input (no solar or wind).

This is not what I expected after a lengthy EQ. I'm getting them to do another 
one tomorrow after a discharge cycle and charge but I'm really beginning to 
think we have something else going on here, something electrical, not chemical. 
The rapid voltage drop is puzzling. 

To review, it's an Outback 3524 on an Epanel, Whisper 100 & controller, 6 4KS 
25 Surrette batteries in 24v configuration - 4.5 years old, .7kw solar. I know 
the charging end is undersized but they have been compensating with the 
generator and they get lots of wind in the fall, winter, spring.

Any more thoughts on this anyone?

Best Regards,
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products


On 2011-10-24, at 6:50 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

> Hi Ron,
> Accurate SG readings are not simple. Was temperature compensation properly 
> employed? Have they been keeping a log book to identify changes? How accurate 
> is the hydrometer? How skilled is the person taking the reading? 
> 
> Most of the Battery Wrench responses suggest equalization but I don't see 
> from any of your posts that this has been done yet. I suggest this to be the 
> next step and I recommend that you carefully watch voltage and current. This 
> will tell you a lot. I use a Fluke ScopeMeter in the TrendPlot mode and track 
> voltage and current over time. It provides a good visual understanding.
> 
> In case others are using this forum to glean information, attached is a chart 
> for illustration of the charge cycle. You should see a constant,

Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex Vesta Online units

[Ron Young]

So would these be suitable for an off-grid application Bob? Any comments on the 
reliability? The proposed set is in individual residences on a First Nations 
reserve and the recipients will have zero technical knowledge for operation of 
them.

Ron Young

On 2011-11-10, at 2:41 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:

> On 11/10/2011 1:41 PM, Ron Young wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all, does anyone have any experience with the Xantrex Vesta Online units? 
>> I have just been contacted by a client who has several of these in storage 
>> and he wants to put them into use as off-grid inverter systems. The only 
>> thing I've been able to find out about them is that they seem to be UPS 
>> units. Client has no further info or manuals. I have a pic if anyone needs a 
>> look.
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> Ron Young
> 
> 
> The Vesta that I remember was a very early Xantrex,  late Trace battery box 
> like thing with an inverter
> in it.  The inverter would normally have been either a Statpower Prosine  or 
> a Trace PS2512 or
> some other voltage.   We called it the Pentasine cuz it had 5 transformers.
> 
> I wasn't sure if the Vesta was a shipping product but I guess they/we did 
> ship some.
> 
> I have a couple of those that I use for shelves in the basement.  They had 
> doors.
> 
> boB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
>> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
>> 1-877-925-2929
>> blog: http://www.earthrightsolar.tumblr.com
>> website: http://www.solareagle.com
>> email: sa...@solareagle.com
>> 79F North Third Ave
>> Williams Lake, BC
>> V2G 2A3
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
> 

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[RE-wrenches] Xantrex Vesta Online units

[Ron Young]

Hi all, does anyone have any experience with the Xantrex Vesta Online units? I 
have just been contacted by a client who has several of these in storage and he 
wants to put them into use as off-grid inverter systems. The only thing I've 
been able to find out about them is that they seem to be UPS units. Client has 
no further info or manuals. I have a pic if anyone needs a look.

Best Regards,
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
1-877-925-2929
blog: http://www.earthrightsolar.tumblr.com
website: http://www.solareagle.com
email: sa...@solareagle.com
79F North Third Ave
Williams Lake, BC
V2G 2A3

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Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation

[Ron Young]

Hi Larry,

I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers description 
a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't jive. Any sulphated 
battery I've encountered, and I defer to your greater experience, has always 
revealed itself with a simple S.G. test and these batteries were reading above 
1.265. I then thought the possibility of a defective hydrometer and had them 
test with another but we just got confirmation of the same thing. 

The weird drop in voltage also isn't explained by your description. Why would 
this just happen without loads or charging present (except maybe the DC 
Sunfrost load) at the same predictable time at 4 a.m. The fact that when the 
generator was turned on and sent a surge of current into the system and the 
problem went away made the detective in me think there had to be another 
explanation. The bank was at rest for several hours through the night and the 
voltage dropout was cured by a brief application of charge current. 

When I arrived on site my discovery that the client was under watering the 
batteries and this chronic condition resulted in a very rich electrolyte, 
reading well above 1.265 - into the 1.280 range made me think that was the 
problem and it seems to have gone away now that the electrolyte level was 
raised and the batteries given a good charge. But it still nags at me that 
something else is lurking in the shadows. Your description of the sulphate 
converting to a crystalline form has me worried because if this is the case 
this expensive battery bank is in danger. I would have to camp out at the site 
and monitor the charging over a day or so. I'm going to forward some of your 
comments and those of others that have generously offered suggestions and we'll 
see if I can convince the client who now believes everything is A-Ok.

Best Regards,
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

On 2011-10-22, at 12:06 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

> Hi Ron,
> 
> As many on this list have suggested, it sounds like a sulfated battery 
> condition. In your last message you revealed something to me that absolutely 
> confirms this but perhaps you didn't recognize it. 
> 
> Battery voltage readings are deceiving because they do not indicate capacity. 
> 25.7 volts sounds like a fully charged 24 volt bank, but is it? Only if the 
> battery was at rest for 5-6 hours could you have some confidence that the 
> bank was full at this voltage. But this is not the case because the bank is 
> in daily use, always charging or discharging. However, there is one useful 
> indication that voltage can be used for: detecting a sulfated battery. 
> 
> You mentioned that the the battery drops to 24.5 in the early AM without any 
> heavy loads on. For the 4KS25 battery this equates to about 800AH at the 72 
> hour rate. Then you said that the customer ran a 2500 watt generator for 5 
> minutes and drove the voltage up to 29 volts. Here's the Ah-Ha moment: That 
> is EXACTLY the behavior of a heavily sulfated battery bank. A fast rise in 
> voltage indicates sulfation.  It is impossible for that tiny generator, or 
> any charge source they own for that matter, to replace the hundreds of AH it 
> would take to drive a healthy battery up to the absorb voltage of 29 volts. 
> The bank is about 45,000 watt hours (72h rate). There would have to be over 
> 20,000 Wh removed to be at that voltage. How many Wh's are replaced in 5 
> minutes by a 2500 watt genny? I'm sure you are getting the picture. 
> 
> Why did this happen to these expensive batteries? Glad you asked. Battery 
> plates are not uniformly efficient in the electrochemical process leaving 
> some portions with lead sulfate even after 8 hours of charging. Unless these 
> portions are cleared off regularly by achieving 100% SoC and occasional, 
> thorough equalization, the amorphous sulfate will convert to a crystalline 
> form and grow. 99% charge, if not corrected in time, will always cause 
> premature battery failure. 
> 
> Undersized RE charging systems, or perhaps oversized batteries, is the 
> culprit that contributes to this all too frequent phenomenon of chronic 
> undercharging. I say contribute because there are other factors. Fact: it can 
> take 10-12 hours to fully charge a lead acid battery. Fact: The time element 
> of battery charging is a highly misunderstood part. With only a few daily 
> sun-hours to work with, how do we get a battery charged with PV solar? 
> Properly sizing the PV array to the battery AND consumption is critical. One 
> method I think is essential for nearly all PV systems is use a generator and 
> charger, appropriately sized to the battery. By bulk charging early in the AM 
> you can reduce the fini

Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

[Ron Young]

Client gave me the float readings from the MX and they look ok but there's been 
no float in the last couple of weeks. I've been thinking an electrical contact 
problem either inside the E-panel, the inverter or the battery causing the 
unexplained voltage drop. Brian and Mark you may be spot on. I'll have to try a 
load test on each battery.

Float readings from MX:
Day14: 108 min.
Day 18:  16 min.
Day 22:  135min.
Day 23: 115min
Day 52: 156 min.
Day 56: 243 min.
Day 57:  112min
Day 59:  100 min
Day 61:  243 min.

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

On 2011-10-11, at 5:05 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

> I once saw a brand new L16 battery that would read the proper voltage (6.3 
> VDC) and had good hydrometer readings, but the voltage would drop to zero 
> when a load was applied. We were even able to do a dead short with a piece of 
> #10 wire with only a faint spark visible upon connection, and then nothing.
>  
> The manufacturer replaced it (after much haggling and the usual “that’s not 
> possible”) so I never found out for sure what caused it, but I suspected a 
> fracture in one of the internal bus bars. Could be what you are seeing here 
> since the voltage change is about 2V.
>  
> I second Mark’s suggestion to load test each battery
>  
> Brian Teitelbaum
> AEE Solar
>  
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
> m...@hurshtown.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:55 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
>  
> I would load test each battery individually using a common "toaster heating 
> element" tester.
> I'm betting on a bum battery in the string.
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
> From: Ron Young 
> Date: Tue, October 11, 2011 3:00 pm
> To: RE-wrenches 
> 
> Wrenches,
> I received some additional info from the customer this morning. They have 
> asked me to hold off my visit until they get a few more clues but some of 
> what they are telling me doesn't necessarily jive with a sulphated battery. 
> Would appreciate comments - here's a quote from their email:
>  
> Hi Ron
> Still having problems with system.  If the batteries are sulphated would the 
> system return to full charge when you remove the load???  Checked our 
> hydrometer against another and it is working fine. Batteries are all either 
> in the green or on the line between green and blue this morning.  Display 
> showed the batteries at 25.2 when we got up this morning. About 10:30 this 
> morning---I had just tested all batteries with the hydrometer---the readings 
> dropped to 23.8.  Retested batteries---they were in the green.   I turned off 
> all loadsthe readings returned to 25.2.  I turned on the 
> Sunfrost---readings immediately dropped to 23.8.  I turned off the 
> Sunfrost--- readings returned to 25.2.  I turned on all lights in the house 
> and the readings remained at 25.2.  I turned the Sunfrost back on and the 
> readings again stayed at 25.2.  The one other thing that happened in the 
> meantime is that the sun came out and we started buying power from the solar 
> system---.1-.3kw.  This all seems to be part of a pattern where as soon as we 
> start buying power---whether from sun, wind or gen. the system returns to 
> normal---But we are still suspicious of the Sunfrost because of our problems 
> a few months back.  
>  
> Ron Young
> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
>  
> On 2011-10-09, at 11:56 AM, Ron Young wrote:
> 
> 
> As always, impressed and gratified by the number of thoughtful replies from 
> Wrenches, thank you again! It looks like a hefty EQ is in order. I've 
> successfully recovered badly sulphated batteries by putting them through 
> multiple charge/EQ/discharge cycles on more than occasion. Will check out 
> that Sunfrost as well. My mistake was believing that the hydrometer could 
> tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth but apparently it 
> takes an amp hour meter to keep it honest.
>  
> Ron Young
> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
>  
> On 2011-10-09, at 11:12 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:
> 
> 
> Ron-
> We've seen this issue before,and it is almost always due to badly sulfated 
> batteries. I'd try a LONG (8-12 hrs) EQ charge at 32 volts. We've done this 
> with Hawkers and fixed the problem. I believe the Surrettes could handle this 
> kind of charge, though you might contact Jam

Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

[Ron Young]

Wrenches,
I received some additional info from the customer this morning. They have asked 
me to hold off my visit until they get a few more clues but some of what they 
are telling me doesn't necessarily jive with a sulphated battery. Would 
appreciate comments - here's a quote from their email:

Hi Ron
Still having problems with system.  If the batteries are sulphated would the 
system return to full charge when you remove the load???  Checked our 
hydrometer against another and it is working fine. Batteries are all either in 
the green or on the line between green and blue this morning.  Display showed 
the batteries at 25.2 when we got up this morning. About 10:30 this morning---I 
had just tested all batteries with the hydrometer---the readings dropped to 
23.8.  Retested batteries---they were in the green.   I turned off all 
loadsthe readings returned to 25.2.  I turned on the Sunfrost---readings 
immediately dropped to 23.8.  I turned off the Sunfrost--- readings returned to 
25.2.  I turned on all lights in the house and the readings remained at 25.2.  
I turned the Sunfrost back on and the readings again stayed at 25.2.  The one 
other thing that happened in the meantime is that the sun came out and we 
started buying power from the solar system---.1-.3kw.  This all seems to be 
part of a pattern where as soon as we start buying power---whether from sun, 
wind or gen. the system returns to normal---But we are still suspicious of the 
Sunfrost because of our problems a few months back.  

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

On 2011-10-09, at 11:56 AM, Ron Young wrote:

> As always, impressed and gratified by the number of thoughtful replies from 
> Wrenches, thank you again! It looks like a hefty EQ is in order. I've 
> successfully recovered badly sulphated batteries by putting them through 
> multiple charge/EQ/discharge cycles on more than occasion. Will check out 
> that Sunfrost as well. My mistake was believing that the hydrometer could 
> tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth but apparently it 
> takes an amp hour meter to keep it honest.
> 
> Ron Young
> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
> 
> On 2011-10-09, at 11:12 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:
> 
>> Ron-
>> We've seen this issue before,and it is almost always due to badly sulfated 
>> batteries. I'd try a LONG (8-12 hrs) EQ charge at 32 volts. We've done this 
>> with Hawkers and fixed the problem. I believe the Surrettes could handle 
>> this kind of charge, though you might contact Jamie Surrette.
>> 
>> Jonathan Hill, senior system design engineer
>> Sierra Solar Systems
>> 563C Idaho Maryland Road
>> Grass Valley, CA 95945
>> Celebrating our 31st year in solar!
>> tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
>> order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
>> e-mail:  <mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com>
>> world wide web:  <http://www.sierrasolar.com>
>> 
>> Check out our 2 minute video at: 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk
>> Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please
>> leave _all_ of the previous messages (unless it's unbearable) in
>>   your reply so I can better remember your original message.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 8, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Ron Young wrote:
>> 
>>> Thanks Bob but he has a tubular type hydrometer, not the pointer type. 
>>> They're usually ok but I'll check it against mine when I go there which 
>>> looks like a certainty.
>>> 
>>> They EQ the batteries on a regular basis as per my instructions (they say) 
>>> but will have to nail them down on that. The small 2500w generator worries 
>>> me but they have 800w solar and a Whisper 100. The wind blows a lot. 
>>> Inverter is a 3524 Outback.
>>> 
>>> Ron
>>> 
>>> On 2011-10-08, at 5:07 PM, bob ellison wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I bet he has a cheap pointer type hydrometer, I have seen them be way off 
>>>> from reality.
>>>> My guess is that the gravity is low the voltage changes quickly, specific 
>>>> gravity changes slowly in a battery bank.
>>>> To fully charge a 24 volt bank you need to get it to 29 + volts and keep 
>>>> it there for several hours, depending on the battery bank size.
>>>> Charging it to 25.4 is nothing in the long run.
>>>> Give them a LONG full charge, what are the inverters? Does it ever get an 
>>>> EQ charge?
>>>>  
>>>> Bob Ellison
>>>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

[Ron Young]

As always, impressed and gratified by the number of thoughtful replies from 
Wrenches, thank you again! It looks like a hefty EQ is in order. I've 
successfully recovered badly sulphated batteries by putting them through 
multiple charge/EQ/discharge cycles on more than occasion. Will check out that 
Sunfrost as well. My mistake was believing that the hydrometer could tell the 
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth but apparently it takes an amp 
hour meter to keep it honest.

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

On 2011-10-09, at 11:12 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:

> Ron-
> We've seen this issue before,and it is almost always due to badly sulfated 
> batteries. I'd try a LONG (8-12 hrs) EQ charge at 32 volts. We've done this 
> with Hawkers and fixed the problem. I believe the Surrettes could handle this 
> kind of charge, though you might contact Jamie Surrette.
> 
> Jonathan Hill, senior system design engineer
> Sierra Solar Systems
> 563C Idaho Maryland Road
> Grass Valley, CA 95945
> Celebrating our 31st year in solar!
> tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
> order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
> e-mail:  <mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com>
> world wide web:  <http://www.sierrasolar.com>
> 
> Check out our 2 minute video at: 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk
> Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please
> leave _all_ of the previous messages (unless it's unbearable) in
>   your reply so I can better remember your original message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 8, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Ron Young wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Bob but he has a tubular type hydrometer, not the pointer type. 
>> They're usually ok but I'll check it against mine when I go there which 
>> looks like a certainty.
>> 
>> They EQ the batteries on a regular basis as per my instructions (they say) 
>> but will have to nail them down on that. The small 2500w generator worries 
>> me but they have 800w solar and a Whisper 100. The wind blows a lot. 
>> Inverter is a 3524 Outback.
>> 
>> Ron
>> 
>> On 2011-10-08, at 5:07 PM, bob ellison wrote:
>> 
>>> I bet he has a cheap pointer type hydrometer, I have seen them be way off 
>>> from reality.
>>> My guess is that the gravity is low the voltage changes quickly, specific 
>>> gravity changes slowly in a battery bank.
>>> To fully charge a 24 volt bank you need to get it to 29 + volts and keep it 
>>> there for several hours, depending on the battery bank size.
>>> Charging it to 25.4 is nothing in the long run.
>>> Give them a LONG full charge, what are the inverters? Does it ever get an 
>>> EQ charge?
>>>  
>>> Bob Ellison
>>>  
>>> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 2:02 PM
>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
>>>  
>>> Howdy Wrenches,
>>>  
>>> One of my customers that lives 3 hours out in the back country is having an 
>>> intermittent problem that I haven't encountered before. The batteries drop 
>>> rapidly in voltage but hydrometer readings are in the green. Turning off 
>>> the inverter and just using DC doesn't change anything. Meters on the Mate, 
>>> Outback MX and Whisper controller are all the same so it's not a metering 
>>> problem. On the way to bed the batteries were at 25.4, overnight with no 
>>> loads they dropped to 22.9 then a short 15 min. charge with a generator 
>>> brings the batteries back up and two hours later they are at 25.8. This 
>>> scenario has occurred several times and then doesn't appear for a day or 
>>> two.
>>>  
>>> It doesn't seem to be sulfation as the batteries are reading good on the 
>>> hydrometer every time. All cells check out. The inverter doesn't seem to be 
>>> the problem. They have a Sunfrost on a separate DC circuit. It sounds like 
>>> an intermittent circuit problem or electronics issue. Customer has checked 
>>> and tightened all the connections he can get at but hasn't been inside the 
>>> components. Would appreciate any suggestions or clues before I make the 
>>> trip.
>>>  
>>> Ron Young
>>>  
>>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
>>> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
>>>  
>>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

[Ron Young]

Thanks Bob but he has a tubular type hydrometer, not the pointer type. They're 
usually ok but I'll check it against mine when I go there which looks like a 
certainty.

They EQ the batteries on a regular basis as per my instructions (they say) but 
will have to nail them down on that. The small 2500w generator worries me but 
they have 800w solar and a Whisper 100. The wind blows a lot. Inverter is a 
3524 Outback.

Ron

On 2011-10-08, at 5:07 PM, bob ellison wrote:

> I bet he has a cheap pointer type hydrometer, I have seen them be way off 
> from reality.
> My guess is that the gravity is low the voltage changes quickly, specific 
> gravity changes slowly in a battery bank.
> To fully charge a 24 volt bank you need to get it to 29 + volts and keep it 
> there for several hours, depending on the battery bank size.
> Charging it to 25.4 is nothing in the long run.
> Give them a LONG full charge, what are the inverters? Does it ever get an EQ 
> charge?
>  
> Bob Ellison
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 2:02 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
>  
> Howdy Wrenches,
>  
> One of my customers that lives 3 hours out in the back country is having an 
> intermittent problem that I haven't encountered before. The batteries drop 
> rapidly in voltage but hydrometer readings are in the green. Turning off the 
> inverter and just using DC doesn't change anything. Meters on the Mate, 
> Outback MX and Whisper controller are all the same so it's not a metering 
> problem. On the way to bed the batteries were at 25.4, overnight with no 
> loads they dropped to 22.9 then a short 15 min. charge with a generator 
> brings the batteries back up and two hours later they are at 25.8. This 
> scenario has occurred several times and then doesn't appear for a day or two.
>  
> It doesn't seem to be sulfation as the batteries are reading good on the 
> hydrometer every time. All cells check out. The inverter doesn't seem to be 
> the problem. They have a Sunfrost on a separate DC circuit. It sounds like an 
> intermittent circuit problem or electronics issue. Customer has checked and 
> tightened all the connections he can get at but hasn't been inside the 
> components. Would appreciate any suggestions or clues before I make the trip.
>  
> Ron Young
>  
> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
>  
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

[Ron Young]

HI David,
Well they only have a 2500 watt gas generator, but they've had three very 
strong windstorms in the last couple of weeks so the batteries should have been 
getting lots of charge. They are very conservative power users.

Ron Young

On 2011-10-08, at 2:01 PM, David Katz wrote:

> Ron
> If the customer does not get enough elecrolyte into the hydrometer to lift 
> the float, the level could be in the green on a dead battery. If they don't 
> have a dead cell they must have a fully discharged battery. An 1100 ah 
> battery seeing a 100 amp charge would be closer to 30 volts after 2 hours of 
> charging if it had even a 50% charge.
> David Katz
>  
> From: Ron Young [mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 11:31 AM
> To: RE-wrenches  
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem 
>  
> There is no amp hour meter in the system. The dump load on the Whisper sounds 
> like a possibility... Batteries are 4ks21 Surrettes with an 1100 a/h rating 
> @20hr rate and should have plenty of life left in them. They have been eq'd 
> on a regular basis and maintenance has been good. Alas the customer doesn't 
> own a multimeter so can't check the individual battery voltages but has 
> checked each cell with tubular hydrometer and tell me that all cells are in 
> the green. They may misread a hydrometer but the colour is easy to see so I'm 
> pretty sure they don't have a bad cell.
> 
> Ron
> 
> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
> 
> On 2011-10-08, at 11:20 AM, jay peltz wrote:
> 
>> HI Ron,
>> 
>> Do you have an amp hr meter in the system?
>> 
>> When you say 15 min of genny brings the batteries back up, back up to what 
>> as you also say, 2 hrs later they are at 25.8v?
>> 
>> I would guess the problem is the dump load controller on the Whisper, its 
>> turing on for some reason, draining the batteries.
>> 
>> But for me without an amp hr meter, hard to really know what is happening 
>> overnight ie was there really a drain on the system?
>> 
>> jay
>> 
>> peltz power
>> 
>> On Oct 8, 2011, at 11:01 AM, Ron Young wrote:
>> 
>>> Howdy Wrenches,
>>> 
>>> One of my customers that lives 3 hours out in the back country is having an 
>>> intermittent problem that I haven't encountered before. The batteries drop 
>>> rapidly in voltage but hydrometer readings are in the green. Turning off 
>>> the inverter and just using DC doesn't change anything. Meters on the Mate, 
>>> Outback MX and Whisper controller are all the same so it's not a metering 
>>> problem. On the way to bed the batteries were at 25.4, overnight with no 
>>> loads they dropped to 22.9 then a short 15 min. charge with a generator 
>>> brings the batteries back up and two hours later they are at 25.8. This 
>>> scenario has occurred several times and then doesn't appear for a day or 
>>> two.
>>> 
>>> It doesn't seem to be sulfation as the batteries are reading good on the 
>>> hydrometer every time. All cells check out. The inverter doesn't seem to be 
>>> the problem. They have a Sunfrost on a separate DC circuit. It sounds like 
>>> an intermittent circuit problem or electronics issue. Customer has checked 
>>> and tightened all the connections he can get at but hasn't been inside the 
>>> components. Would appreciate any suggestions or clues before I make the 
>>> trip.
>>> 
>>> Ron Young
>>> 
>>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
>>> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>> 
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

[Ron Young]

There is no amp hour meter in the system. The dump load on the Whisper sounds 
like a possibility... Batteries are 4ks21 Surrettes with an 1100 a/h rating 
@20hr rate and should have plenty of life left in them. They have been eq'd on 
a regular basis and maintenance has been good. Alas the customer doesn't own a 
multimeter so can't check the individual battery voltages but has checked each 
cell with tubular hydrometer and tell me that all cells are in the green. They 
may misread a hydrometer but the colour is easy to see so I'm pretty sure they 
don't have a bad cell.

Ron

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

On 2011-10-08, at 11:20 AM, jay peltz wrote:

> HI Ron,
> 
> Do you have an amp hr meter in the system?
> 
> When you say 15 min of genny brings the batteries back up, back up to what as 
> you also say, 2 hrs later they are at 25.8v?
> 
> I would guess the problem is the dump load controller on the Whisper, its 
> turing on for some reason, draining the batteries.
> 
> But for me without an amp hr meter, hard to really know what is happening 
> overnight ie was there really a drain on the system?
> 
> jay
> 
> peltz power
> 
> On Oct 8, 2011, at 11:01 AM, Ron Young wrote:
> 
>> Howdy Wrenches,
>> 
>> One of my customers that lives 3 hours out in the back country is having an 
>> intermittent problem that I haven't encountered before. The batteries drop 
>> rapidly in voltage but hydrometer readings are in the green. Turning off the 
>> inverter and just using DC doesn't change anything. Meters on the Mate, 
>> Outback MX and Whisper controller are all the same so it's not a metering 
>> problem. On the way to bed the batteries were at 25.4, overnight with no 
>> loads they dropped to 22.9 then a short 15 min. charge with a generator 
>> brings the batteries back up and two hours later they are at 25.8. This 
>> scenario has occurred several times and then doesn't appear for a day or two.
>> 
>> It doesn't seem to be sulfation as the batteries are reading good on the 
>> hydrometer every time. All cells check out. The inverter doesn't seem to be 
>> the problem. They have a Sunfrost on a separate DC circuit. It sounds like 
>> an intermittent circuit problem or electronics issue. Customer has checked 
>> and tightened all the connections he can get at but hasn't been inside the 
>> components. Would appreciate any suggestions or clues before I make the trip.
>> 
>> Ron Young
>> 
>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
>> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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[RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

[Ron Young]

Howdy Wrenches,

One of my customers that lives 3 hours out in the back country is having an 
intermittent problem that I haven't encountered before. The batteries drop 
rapidly in voltage but hydrometer readings are in the green. Turning off the 
inverter and just using DC doesn't change anything. Meters on the Mate, Outback 
MX and Whisper controller are all the same so it's not a metering problem. On 
the way to bed the batteries were at 25.4, overnight with no loads they dropped 
to 22.9 then a short 15 min. charge with a generator brings the batteries back 
up and two hours later they are at 25.8. This scenario has occurred several 
times and then doesn't appear for a day or two.

It doesn't seem to be sulfation as the batteries are reading good on the 
hydrometer every time. All cells check out. The inverter doesn't seem to be the 
problem. They have a Sunfrost on a separate DC circuit. It sounds like an 
intermittent circuit problem or electronics issue. Customer has checked and 
tightened all the connections he can get at but hasn't been inside the 
components. Would appreciate any suggestions or clues before I make the trip.

Ron Young

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products


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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery

[Ron Young]

Hey Ray I like your dolly! I could use something like that to move the big 
Surrette/Rolls batteries. Not nearly as big as a HUP but at 300+ lbs can be a 
little hefty.

Ron

On 2011-09-17, at 6:52 PM, Ray Walters wrote:

> Todd;
> 
> I haven't tried the 2v L16s, because they were rated the same cycle life. (I 
> could be wrong?)
> Are you really moving L16s by yourself? I've done it, but its soo bad for 
> your back.  I made several tools for moving the HUPs, one is a frame and 
> block and tackle for pulling the separate cells out (weigh less than an L16) 
> and I made a 4 wheeled dolly that can roll a HUP right off a trailer, through 
> a 30" door, and into the room.
> I don't know of anyone that could move a HUP themselves (the smallest are 742 
> lb). My favorite is to use a bobcat or forklift, and just set them in place. 
> Here's a pic of our carrier, hopefully its small enough to post:
> 
> Ray
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/17/2011 11:36 AM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:
>> 
>> What about the 2 volt L-16 versions? Has anyone had success with them for 
>> larger banks? I work alone and HUPs are too heavy to lift on my own... 
>> however 24, L-16's in one series string would be a hell of a battery bank 
>> too.
>>  
>> Todd
>>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery

[Ron Young]

Hi All,
Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this conversation but the 
setup is basically in two strings of 16 GC batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries 
in one string that I am recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 
1 year for the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and check - and this 
is important as the maintenance on these 4 systems is being done by a third 
party who is not always reliably taking care of business; half the number of 
connections; half the footprint ... 

The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries in this scenario 
has to do with the company who set the systems up - Xantrex and their rationale 
seems to be the easy availability of the GC batteries e.g. in automotive stores 
etc. vs the more specialized distribution of the L-16's. Xantrex want to sell 
"arrive and drop" systems that will be sold through mass retailers from what I 
can see.

The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000 series batteries vs. 675 
on the U.S. Battery chart but the U.S. battery chart doesn't differentiate 
between GC batteries and L-16's or any other type so I find it a bit suspect.

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products


On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote:

> forwarded from earth2
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Ray Walters 
>> Date: September 16, 2011 1:03:43 PM PDT
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
>> Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
>> 
>> Larry, 
>> 
>> I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings. If that's 
>> really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also 
>> crazy. I see only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or 
>> other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't 
>> even on the plate for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no 
>> brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher 
>> range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way 
>> too optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530 
>> becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, 
>> when everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware.
>> Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the internet:
>> 3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200. cycle life at 80% 
>> DOD about 450 to 500 cycles.
>> HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100 cycles to 80%DOD. 
>> That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery compared to about 
>> 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s. 
>> This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra maintenance required 
>> for watering the L16 type battery, nor the fact that you will have 4 battery 
>> replacements for the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. 
>> Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective by about a 3 to1 
>> ratio.
>> 
>> Ray
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no 
>> matter how much better the GC2 may be.
>> 
>> Larry 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote:
>> The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. 
>> Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries 
>> (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs 
>> about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 
>> cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and 
>> your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always 
>> compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue 
>> if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper 
>> the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique.
>> We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the 
>> HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make 
>> sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan.
>> The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements 
>> were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could 
>> not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't 
>> appreciate their long term value.
>> I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding 
>> in mainten

Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery

[Ron Young]

Hi Larry,
Client has asked me to compare the cycle life because he is upgrading a large 
battery bank and has been convinced by a Xantrex "scientist" that golf cart 
batteries are superior to L-16's even though it involves twice as many 
batteries, connections, cells, footprint etc. So to convince his purchasing 
committee he wants to know the difference in cycle life between a U.S.B 208 and 
a Surrette S-460.

Ron


On 2011-09-15, at 4:52 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

> Ron,
> 
> For many years we have sold the US2200's and the Interstate version, the 
> U2200 and I'd say they are nearly as good as the Trojan T-105. (buyer beware: 
> Interstate switched to Johnson Control junk batteries and no longer sells the 
> American made US Battery. http://starlightsolar.com/interstate.htm) I 
> consider Rolls a superior long life battery compared to any other L16's.
> 
> Curious here: why are you comparing an L-16 to a GC2? US Battery also makes a 
> floor scrubber version, model US16HC XC.
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> On Sep 15, 2011, at 4:23 PM, RM You wrote:
> 
>> Hi Wrenches, trying to compare battery cycle life on L-16 Surrette/Rolls vs. 
>> U.S. Battery golf cart. Can't seem to find any clear info on the U.S. 
>> Battery 208 a/h golf cart. The chart that U.S. battery shows on their 
>> website only gives one cycle life graph for all of their batteries whereas 
>> Surrette/Rolls differentiates between the series 4000 and series 5000.
>> 
>> Comments?
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> Ron Young
>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
>> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Damaged Modules (Hidden on Pallets)

[Ron Young]

Several years ago when selling 85w BP laser groove panels we received 3 or 4 
panels in a 10 panel shipment that were shattered. Pallet was fine, the boxes 
were intact on the outside, no visible sign of damage. Distributor had a great 
deal of difficulty believing that we didn't cause the problem. The panels 
however had been impacted from the side -- frames dented. Probably from a 
forklift. My belief is that they were boxed at the factory in that condition as 
it did not happen after they were in the box. Serial numbers on the boxes 
matched the panels. Hard to say what happened.

In the end the distributor made good on the claim and replaced the panels.

Ron Young

On 2011-03-10, at 11:22 AM, William Miller wrote:

> Jason:
> 
> Back when SolarWorld (or maybe they were Shell at the time) used to include a 
> grounding screw, we once found a grounding screw packet sandwiched between 
> glass-to-glass packed modules.  One of the modules was shattered due to the 
> pressure of the screw.  Look for a foreign object amongst the shards.
> 
> William
> 
> 
> At 10:43 AM 3/10/2011, you wrote:
>> I'd like to know your experiences when finding shattered module(s) in
>> the middle of a full palletized shipment, particularly when you observed
>> no exterior damage having inspected the shipment carefully. How did your
>> supplier/manufacturer handle it? How did the freight company handle it,
>> having not noted anything on the delivery ticket?
>> 
>> I heard of some other installers recently having similar problems. We
>> heeded the advice to inspect shipments carefully. We just had our first
>> issue...
>> 
>> Any thoughts on how this kind of damage happens?
>> 
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Fafco Solar
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[RE-wrenches] questions about solar charging 72v UPS

[Ron Young]

Hi All,

I recently acquired some UPS units that are a high end portable units (GE 
GT3000). They are nearly new and I would like to rig them up as a standalone 
emergency back-up power source with a solar (or wind) charging option. These 
units have sine wave output and are a double conversion type, i.e. power out is 
isolated from power in by ac to dc to ac conversion. The main problem I have is 
that the battery pack is 72v. It is expandable and I can add up to four 
additional packs to increase the runtime to over three hours at half power 
(1200 watts). How do I charge this type of battery pack with solar? Is there a 
charge controller out there that will provide nominal 72v? 
http://www.gedigitalenergy.com/PowerQuality/catalog/gtseries.htm

Best Regards,
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
1-877-925-2929
blog: http://www.earthrightsolar.tumblr.com
website: http://www.solareagle.com
email: sa...@solareagle.com
79F North Third Ave
Williams Lake, BC
V2G 2A3

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Re: [RE-wrenches] recover broken modules

[Ron Young]

We recently bought some broken modules from a supplier --at a very  
good price- to see if we could work something out. After looking into  
a variety of options we settled on a lexan sheet cut to size and  
secured with polyurethane adhesive along the frame edges. The reason  
we chose lexan was due to the fact it is flexible and the broken  
modules we purchased actually had a convex shape due to the impact  
they received. The polyu worked well on the module with an aluminum  
frame but did not like the one with a painted frame so much. The  
problem we couldn't solve is the loss of Voc & Isc due to refraction &  
reflection from the broken bits of glass. Removing it did not seem  
like an option.


Ron Young

On 27-May-10, at 8:11 AM, Joel Davidson wrote:


Jeff,

You can put another glass front on top of the module to protect the  
cells and wiring to get a few more years use from the module. My  
customer got 3 years of use from a broken module in extreme Alaska  
weather. Other customers had similar luck.


1. Clean with low pressure dry air to remove loose glass and dirt.  
Be careful with flying glass and avoid damaging cells,  
interconnects, and bus wires.

2. Inspect and repair backsheet tears.
3. Test to ensure Voc and Isc are within specifications.
4. Wipe front edge of frame with clean, dry cotton cloth.
5. Apply non-acid silicone RTV on front edge of frame.
6. Apply glass cover module and let silicone seal cure for at least  
24 hours.


Good luck.
Joel Davidson
- Original Message -
From: Jeff Yago
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] recover broken modules

Over the past few years we have had our share of modules damaged in  
shipment or in handling on our end that were never installed but had  
broken glazing.  As you know, when these things go they usually look  
like a car windshield, with the vinyl backing holding all the broken  
small glass pieces together.  Seems like a shame to trash, is there  
anyone out there with a way to re-glaze a new module with broken  
glazing.


Any chance you could just place a new glass glazing over the broken  
glass and seal?  Or some way to remove the glass pieces without  
damaging the module cells and inter-connect foil connections being  
held in place by the backing. Seems like a business opportunity,


Jeff Yago


Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?

[Ron Young]

Mike,

Some interesting points, thank you. I would have attributed the  
problem to several of the mentioned issues, medications (HRT),  
clenching, tension... But what happened a couple of days ago makes me  
wonder. I turned on the inverter without her knowledge and within two  
minutes she was complaining and asked me if it was on. It was right at  
quitting time and she was out of the environment within 7-8 minutes  
but the next day she complained that she had a "migraine" that night.


Ron

On 4-Feb-10, at 6:41 PM, Ron Young wrote:


forwarded from earth2


Begin forwarded message:


From: "Michael Gullo" 
Date: February 4, 2010 5:47:56 PM PST (CA)
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
Reply-To: RE-wrenches 

Hi Ron and the group,

The attribution of negative health effects to exposure to  
electromagnetic fields or activated electric equipment has not been  
confirmed in random double-blind provocation studies involving  
persons reporting hypersensitivity to electricity. Before we accuse  
are hard-working inverters, let's look at some facts. There are 13  
different categories of headaches which are divided into over 129  
sub-types. Many people call every headache they experience as  
migraine when in fact there are specific inclusion criteria to make  
diagnosis of migraine. The "rubber band tightening around my head"  
is a classic symptom of tension-type headache. Given a mid 50's  
female, there are more likely one or more provoking factors:  
medications, sleep pattern, hormonal replacement therapy, stress  
(clenching, TMJ), smoker, foods (aged cheese, alcohol, caffeine,  
chocolate, dairy products, MSGs, etc). Does she work at a computer  
using a chair with no arms and no lower back support with a monitor  
slightly higher than eye level? This is an extremely common  
scenario in which the employee comes to work symptom-free and by 12  
or 1:00 develops a headache or neck ache. If she really wants some  
answers, she will need to keep a headache diary for several weeks  
and seek professional help. You could cycle the inverter on/off to  
see if there is a direct correlation between the incidence of the  
headaches and runtime of the inverter. BTW, the placebo effect, as  
mentioned in other emails, is between 40-60% effective at resolving  
symptoms. Hope this helps a bit.


Mike
Michael Gullo
Solar Solutions LLC
Marlton, NJ

NABCEP Certified PV Installer T
Diplomate American Board of Orofacial Pain

- Original Message - From: "Ron Young" >

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?



Bob,
Not a customer, an employee who works for me. She is mid 50's and  
has very good hearing. You may be right about sound. I also think  
there's  a significant portion of psychosomatic in the mix but I  
wanted to find  out if there were other instances of people  
experiencing distress from inverter operation just to rule out the  
possibility -or take it into account.


I know that some people are becoming more sensitive to  
environmental influences but this inverter is quiet, just the  
usual fan sound occasionally. I used to be able to hear the sound  
of an ultrasonic  alarm system back when I was in my 20's & 30's -  
now I just hear  ringing in my ears.


Ron


On 4-Feb-10, at 1:30 AM, boB Gudgel wrote:



Dan Fink said:

"That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities for   
what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation"


I'm betting that it's sound.  Remember how you could hear   
televisions singing

away at 15 kHz ??  That still gives some people headaches.

How old is this customer ??   I'm guessing he's young because  
it's  most likely because he
can hear the inverter switching.We just can't normally hear   
them The FX/VFX
inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still  
hear. Especially younger ones

with better hearing.

It's probably the transformer windings and iron acting as a  
speaker/ transducer.


High frequencies are very directional so will usually respond  
well  to a thin wall  of
padding between inverter and the rest of the inside of the house  
or cabin.

That should help reduce the acoustical output.

boB






Dan Fink wrote:

Joel --
Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about  
a really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was  
mounted  right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's  
bed. They  finally had to have it moved--mostly because of  
buzzing, but EMF  was a concern too. It was basically less than  
a foot from the guy's  pillow.


Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive EMF   
meters available from the same places that sell DIY shielding   
materials.


The biggest sour

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?

[Ron Young]

Bob,
Not a customer, an employee who works for me. She is mid 50's and has  
very good hearing. You may be right about sound. I also think there's  
a significant portion of psychosomatic in the mix but I wanted to find  
out if there were other instances of people experiencing distress from  
inverter operation just to rule out the possibility -or take it into  
account.


I know that some people are becoming more sensitive to environmental  
influences but this inverter is quiet, just the usual fan sound  
occasionally. I used to be able to hear the sound of an ultrasonic  
alarm system back when I was in my 20's & 30's - now I just hear  
ringing in my ears.


Ron


On 4-Feb-10, at 1:30 AM, boB Gudgel wrote:



Dan Fink said:

"That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities for  
what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation"


I'm betting that it's sound.  Remember how you could hear  
televisions singing

away at 15 kHz ??  That still gives some people headaches.

How old is this customer ??   I'm guessing he's young because it's  
most likely because he
can hear the inverter switching.We just can't normally hear  
them  The FX/VFX
inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still hear.   
Especially younger ones

with better hearing.

It's probably the transformer windings and iron acting as a speaker/ 
transducer.


High frequencies are very directional so will usually respond well  
to a thin wall  of
padding between inverter and the rest of the inside of the house or  
cabin.

That should help reduce the acoustical output.

boB






Dan Fink wrote:

Joel --
Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about a  
really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was mounted  
right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's bed. They  
finally had to have it moved--mostly because of buzzing, but EMF  
was a concern too. It was basically less than a foot from the guy's  
pillow.


Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive EMF  
meters available from the same places that sell DIY shielding  
materials.


The biggest source of EMF at *my* house is actually the E-Meter  
measuring amp-hours. It even interferes with my handheld ham and  
fire department radio FM communications on 2 meter.


DAN FINK
Renewable Energy Consultant




Joel Davidson wrote:

Ron,

Electromagnetic fields are produced any time you have current  
flowing through wire. They are low frequency waves that drop off  
rapidly proportional to the distance from the source. Inverters,  
transformers, fluorescent light ballasts, motors, clock radios,  
power blocks, microwave ovens, kilowatt hour meters, service  
panels all emit EMF. There is no
practical way to block EMF.  It passes through almost everything  
including walls and even lead. There is no U.S. safety standard  
for EMF. Some say 8 milligauss or more is dangerous and 2.5  
milligauss or less is safe.


I went through our home about 10 years ago using a borrowed  
milligauss meter (thanks David Katz). Our utility meter service  
had significant EMF, but that was not a problem since it is  
mounted on an outside wall and there is a closet between the  
living space and the meter. The EMF had fallen to below 2  
milligauss between the wall and the closet door. The bedroom clock  
radio was the second largest EMF source in our home. Moving the  
clock 1 foot away from the bed to the other side of the night  
stand brought the EMF levels under 2 milligauss. Our SW4048  
inverter emitted a field that fell to a safe level 2 feet from the  
inverter.


I tell people not to put their bed against the wall where their  
utility service panel or inverter is mounted. I also tell them  
that the Japanese did a 2 year study of school children riding the  
Tokyo subway (big EMF emitter) and found that there was no danger.


Some sounds that most of us take for granted can cause physical  
discomfort and even pain. SW4048 and other transformer and  
electrical and electronic buzzing can be annoying. Also certain  
wavelengths and intensities of light can cause pain and injury.


Joel Davidson

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[RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?

[Ron Young]

I have a staff member that has begun complaining recently of feeling  
like a "rubber band was tightening around my head" and of migraines  
when we turn on an inverter. We have set up an Outback 3524 inverter  
in our store and it is charging a set of batteries. Whenever she  
complained we shut it off. It is creating a complicated situation and  
I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this? We have  
customers that live in one room cabins with these inverters and have  
never had a complaint of this nature. No one else on staff has any  
problem with this. Her work area is situated 25' away from the inverter.


Ron Young
earthRight Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback manuals in German or French

[Ron Young]

Just googled this and found a site in Germany that has the FX manual  
in German (incorporating the Mate). It's old but still useful in case  
anyone else is looking.


Ron

On 28-Jan-10, at 6:36 PM, Ron Young wrote:

Wow, thanks Jason, I both phoned and emailed and got the answer that  
no manuals were available in any other language. BTW, Deutsch is  
German not Dutch. But the only manual available is for the MX60 and  
what I need is the Mate. If there's one I bet there's others...maybe  
someone knows??


Ron

On 28-Jan-10, at 5:11 PM, Jason Lerner wrote:


Hi Ron,

Outback has many manuals on their website:  resources/documents/ 
manuals/inverters written is Spanish.  There is even an MX60 manual  
in Dutch, "BEWAHREN SIE DIESE ANLEITUNG AUF"


Best,

Jason Lerner
Waldron Power and Light Co.

On Jan 27, 2010, at 9:39 PM, Ron Young wrote:


Hi Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a source for Outback manuals (Mate & VFX) in  
German or French? I have a customer who is having a great deal of  
difficulty comprehending the operation of her system and has  
asked. I checked with Outback and much to my surprise they don't  
even publish in Spanish but I thought there might be some third  
party info out there.



Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
1-877-925-2929

email: sa...@solareagle.com
http://www.solareagle.com
79F North Third Ave
Williams Lake, BC
V2G 2A3

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback manuals in German or French

[Ron Young]

Wow, thanks Jason, I both phoned and emailed and got the answer that  
no manuals were available in any other language. BTW, Deutsch is  
German not Dutch. But the only manual available is for the MX60 and  
what I need is the Mate. If there's one I bet there's others...maybe  
someone knows??


Ron

On 28-Jan-10, at 5:11 PM, Jason Lerner wrote:


Hi Ron,

Outback has many manuals on their website:  resources/documents/ 
manuals/inverters written is Spanish.  There is even an MX60 manual  
in Dutch, "BEWAHREN SIE DIESE ANLEITUNG AUF"


Best,

Jason Lerner
Waldron Power and Light Co.

On Jan 27, 2010, at 9:39 PM, Ron Young wrote:


Hi Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a source for Outback manuals (Mate & VFX) in  
German or French? I have a customer who is having a great deal of  
difficulty comprehending the operation of her system and has  
asked. I checked with Outback and much to my surprise they don't  
even publish in Spanish but I thought there might be some third  
party info out there.



Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
1-877-925-2929

email: sa...@solareagle.com
http://www.solareagle.com
79F North Third Ave
Williams Lake, BC
V2G 2A3

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[RE-wrenches] Outback manuals in German or French

[Ron Young]

Hi Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a source for Outback manuals (Mate & VFX) in  
German or French? I have a customer who is having a great deal of  
difficulty comprehending the operation of her system and has asked. I  
checked with Outback and much to my surprise they don't even publish  
in Spanish but I thought there might be some third party info out there.



Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
1-877-925-2929

email: sa...@solareagle.com
http://www.solareagle.com
79F North Third Ave
Williams Lake, BC
V2G 2A3

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Re: [RE-wrenches] High amp charge to desulphate

[Ron Young]

Just a follow-up on this. I have able to get the batteries to accept a  
higher and higher amp charge and the hydrometer indicates recovery is  
taking place. However, in the last 15 hour session of charging (this  
is being done in an unmonitored location overnight) the batteries off- 
gassed quite a bit. The gas was very strong rotten egg smell  
indicating hydrogen sulphite...not good stuff. I've never noticed this  
in charging batteries in the past even in some heavy charging  
scenarios you can get an acrid sulphuric smell but not the rotten egg  
smell. Is this because the batteries are so heavily sulphated and is  
this a normal consequence or is it an indicator of some other malady  
in the batteries?


Ron Young
earthRight Solar

On 10-Jan-10, at 8:32 PM, Ron Young wrote:


Some interesting things to consider, thanks everyone!

Ron

On 10-Jan-10, at 4:20 PM, James Surrette wrote:


Hi Ron,

Given the time in "storage" the cells will be severely sulfated and  
will not accept much current initially - probably 28A max (1400x2%)  
and 70A (1400x5%) will suffice once current is accepted.  A  
standalone "unregulated" charger or constant current would be best  
to reclaim these or at least get things started.


Regards,

Jamie


James Surrette

Surrette Battery Co. Ltd
1 Station Rd.
Springhill, NS, CAN
B0M 1X0

Direct: 902.597.4027
Fax: 902.597.8447




>>> Ron Young  1/10/2010 5:52 PM >>>
I have just acquired a 24v set of 1400a/h 2v cells that have been  
in storage without a charge for several years. They were connected  
up in a system that was never turned on (long story). I believe  
these batteries can be recovered if I can get a high enough amp  
charge into them. The battery mfg. recommends putting a 200 amp  
charge on until internal temp rises to 40 degrees C then let them  
cool and do it again, maybe 15 times, to blow the sulphates of the  
plates. Unfortunately I don't have a 200 amp charger but I do have  
an Outback 3524 inverter with an 85 amp charger. I'm wondering if I  
can force the inverter to maximum charge to accomplish this. I  
hooked the inverter up but the batteries only have about 10.5 v  
output from the batteries (hooked up 12 in series for 24v). For  
this reason the Outback won't power up. I am wondering about using  
a standalone charger to provide power to the batteries -- which  
will also provide power to the inverter -- and allow it to come on  
and charge. Anyone suggest a better way?



Ron Young


This email and its attachments have been scanned by iConnection E- 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] High amp charge to desulphate

[Ron Young]

Some interesting things to consider, thanks everyone!

Ron

On 10-Jan-10, at 4:20 PM, James Surrette wrote:


Hi Ron,

Given the time in "storage" the cells will be severely sulfated and  
will not accept much current initially - probably 28A max (1400x2%)  
and 70A (1400x5%) will suffice once current is accepted.  A  
standalone "unregulated" charger or constant current would be best  
to reclaim these or at least get things started.


Regards,

Jamie


James Surrette

Surrette Battery Co. Ltd
1 Station Rd.
Springhill, NS, CAN
B0M 1X0

Direct: 902.597.4027
Fax: 902.597.8447




>>> Ron Young  1/10/2010 5:52 PM >>>
I have just acquired a 24v set of 1400a/h 2v cells that have been in  
storage without a charge for several years. They were connected up  
in a system that was never turned on (long story). I believe these  
batteries can be recovered if I can get a high enough amp charge  
into them. The battery mfg. recommends putting a 200 amp charge on  
until internal temp rises to 40 degrees C then let them cool and do  
it again, maybe 15 times, to blow the sulphates of the plates.  
Unfortunately I don't have a 200 amp charger but I do have an  
Outback 3524 inverter with an 85 amp charger. I'm wondering if I can  
force the inverter to maximum charge to accomplish this. I hooked  
the inverter up but the batteries only have about 10.5 v output from  
the batteries (hooked up 12 in series for 24v). For this reason the  
Outback won't power up. I am wondering about using a standalone  
charger to provide power to the batteries -- which will also provide  
power to the inverter -- and allow it to come on and charge. Anyone  
suggest a better way?



Ron Young


This email and its attachments have been scanned by iConnection E- 
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The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the  
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Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this  
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[RE-wrenches] High amp charge to desulphate

[Ron Young]

I have just acquired a 24v set of 1400a/h 2v cells that have been in  
storage without a charge for several years. They were connected up in  
a system that was never turned on (long story). I believe these  
batteries can be recovered if I can get a high enough amp charge into  
them. The battery mfg. recommends putting a 200 amp charge on until  
internal temp rises to 40 degrees C then let them cool and do it  
again, maybe 15 times, to blow the sulphates of the plates.  
Unfortunately I don't have a 200 amp charger but I do have an Outback  
3524 inverter with an 85 amp charger. I'm wondering if I can force the  
inverter to maximum charge to accomplish this.


I hooked the inverter up but the batteries only have about 10.5 v  
output from the batteries (hooked up 12 in series for 24v). For this  
reason the Outback won't power up. I am wondering about using a  
standalone charger to provide power to the batteries -- which will  
also provide power to the inverter -- and allow it to come on and  
charge.


Anyone suggest a better way?

Ron Young___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] solar roof lift experience?

[Ron Young]

I got a far better price on these ($49.95 ea.) from http://www.texastooltraders.com/Shop/Control/fp/SFV/32723 
, they're made by powr-grip, I'm sure they're the same thing mcmaster  
is selling.


Ron Young
earthRight - Solareagle.com

On 12-Aug-09, at 1:48 PM, Ron Young wrote:


From: Matt Lafferty 
Date: August 12, 2009 1:45:28 PM PDT (CA)
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar roof lift experience?
Reply-To: gilliga...@gmail.com, RE-wrenches >


If you pre-panelize in the shop, then use glazer's lifting suction  
cups to

fly 3 or 4-module panels one at a time. McMaster-Carr Part #53615A13.
Catalog page 1458. http://www.mcmaster.com/#suction-cups/=35r4ht
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Broken Modules

[Ron Young]

I'm looking into a polyurethane coating that can be sprayed on to a  
module that will secure the shattered glass in place and weatherize  
the panel. Cost about $50/panel. I've seen modules 25 years old with  
bullet holes through them that are still functioning, albeit at a much  
lower output. There's always someone looking for a deal or a gift.


Ron Young
earthRight - Solareagle.com

On 3-Aug-09, at 6:32 AM, Doug Wells wrote:


Wrenches,

I am curious what other installers are doing with broken modules?
I know some manufacturers are starting recycling programs.


Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Morrisville, VT 05661
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Ron Young]

Well, as it's the first grid-tie system in this region they are  
paying close attention. The guy I am dealing with is very stern and  
precise. I put down 100%, as they wanted a percentage. So we'll see.  
Thx all for the feedback, helpful as always!


Ron

On 30-Jul-09, at 5:58 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:


Ron,
Why try to break it to them at all? Just answer the question. Put  
down 1.0
or unity. That's what they're looking for. Then go on to the next  
question.

They'll never catch it.

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB  
Gudgel

Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Ron Young wrote:

Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to
British Columbia Hydro? :-|

I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but  
the

question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %


It was most likely just  a trick question.

You're gonna fool them, though !   :)


boB





I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully  
understand

what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My
understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility
supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that
residence expressed as a percentage.

I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses
Power Factor with reference to PV:

POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems



This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?  What
causes low power factor?  Why improve
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor
correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session
includes several KVAR installations and the
resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/ 
industry08_trainingdetails.pdf


Ron

On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:


There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.


.. 
..

..

Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

.. 
..

..


    - Original Message -
*From:* Ron Young <mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com>
*To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor  
for

Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net
metering interconnection application.

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com



-- 
--


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Ron Young]

Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to  
British Columbia Hydro? :-|


I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the  
question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total  
output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor %


I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand  
what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My  
understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility  
supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that  
residence expressed as a percentage.


I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses  
Power Factor with reference to PV:


POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS
Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems

This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor?  What  
causes low power factor?  Why improve
your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor  
correction as it applies to solar installations.
There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries  
resulting in phenomenal energy savings with
a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session  
includes several KVAR installations and the

resultant savings.
http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf

Ron

On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote:


There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels.

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
- Original Message -----
From: Ron Young
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor

Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for  
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net  
metering interconnection application.


Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com



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[RE-wrenches] Power Factor

[Ron Young]

Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for  
Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net  
metering interconnection application.


Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wildlife issues with ground mounts

[Ron Young]

I install almost exclusively pole mount systems and because wildlife  
(deer, bear, moose) and livestock (cows, sheep, goats, horses) are  
common influences the bottom edge of the array is usually above 6'.  
This makes for some pretty high poles on larger arrays. I strongly  
discourage ground mounts in my area. Roof mounts, because of snow,  
are also a bad idea for most applications in my part of the world.  
Last winter I had to replace a combiner box that got ripped off a  
pole mount by a horse running in a most unexpected location. It  
ripped a j-box off the back of one of the modules along with it.  
Luckily for the owner it was fixable and the panel didn't have to be  
replaced.


Ron Young
earthRight Solar - Solareagle


On 8-Jan-09, at 4:19 PM, David Buckner wrote:

I’m curious to hear any horror stories (or simple nuisances)  
relating to open field ground mounted arrays involving wildlife.   
Either wildlife or array being damaged by the other.  The only  
hassles we’ve had have been the occasional squirrel under flush  
mounted rooftop arrays.  We’ve had a few ground mounted arrays up  
and running for over 5 years and I’ve never seen any issues.  We  
are now getting ready to install another ground mount (NJ  
location), and the customer has asked the question.




Regards,

David



--
David Buckner

President


Solar Energy Systems, LLC.

1205 Manhattan Avenue
Suite 1210
Brooklyn, NY 11222-1058

ph 718-389-1545 (ext 11)
fx  718-389-2820
e  dbuck...@solaresystems.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Ron Young]

Hello all,
Report from my last visit and some generator forensics. The 240v  
generator plug was wired for only one leg and terminated at another  
plugbox on the wall of the shed. This other plugbox had basically  
fried internally and when disassembled pretty much came apart,  
carbonized wires. So when I measured the output from the genset under  
load, at the generator it appeared ok. When the voltage was measured  
at the FX terminals, with no load, it was ok but as soon as a load  
was applied the voltage began cycling up and down, presumably as the  
resistance in the generator wall plug increased. The attempt of the  
FX to connect AC-In was immediately dropped as the load of the  
charger kicked in, thus the click after 20 secs. as it attempted to  
connect then dropped the connection.


I re-wired the genset plug for both legs then wired it into an  
Outback FW-X240 to balance the output into the FX and everything is  
now working A-OK. Although the system had previously been working for  
several months the eventual deterioration of the wiring in the  
plugbox on the wall led to it's downfall because the FX was only  
getting half the output from a 3800w generator at best. The generator  
was improperly wired, by the homeowner presumably, and could have led  
to a fire. I just wish I had spotted this problem on the first visit  
but working in a dark outdoor shed with a headlight in -25 C temps  
has it's limitations.


Thanks to everyone for your input and may the New Year bring us all  
the sun, wind and water we need to green the planet.


Ron Young
earthRight - Solareagle


On 31-Dec-08, at 10:43 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote:


HI all and Ron
In my previous post I said the inverter FET board, I am wrong, it  
would have to be the AC board or the generator is running out of  
frequency spec.


Place a load on the generator, so it runs in power note idle, use  
your meter to measure the generator frequency, set the inverter to  
not charge, have no load on the output of the inverter, Try as you  
have done.  The inverter should connect offering very little load.   
If the same effect, measure the surge current to the inverter using  
your meter.  I think the surge should be very minimul.


Darryl


--- On Tue, 12/30/08, R Young  wrote:


From: R Young 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
To: "Christopher Freitas" , "RE- 
wrenches" 

Date: Tuesday, December 30, 2008, 1:29 AM
Hi Chris,
My answers appear below:

On 29-Dec-08, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas wrote:

When you tested just the inverter without the

generator running – you stated that there was a noticeable
flicker every 20 seconds –

THE GENERATOR WAS RUNNING, IT'S JUST THAT I TURNED OFF
ALL THE LOADS TO SEE IF THE PROBLEM WOULD PERSIST AND I
FOUND THAT THE RAPID CYCLING OF THE VOLTAGE AT INPUTS QUIT
AND THE VOLTAGE STABILIZED AT ~121V BUT ABOUT EVERY 20
SECONDS, JUST WHEN YOU WOULD EXPECT THE AC-IN TO GET PICKED
UP BY THE INVERTER THERE WOULD BE AN AUDIBLE CLICK, THE
VOLTAGE WOULD SUDDENLY DROP TO ABOUT 110V, THEN IMMEDIATELY
RECOVER TO ~121V. AT NO TIME DID THE AC-IN GET PICKED UP.


When the generator was connected to the inverter –

was the varying AC input voltage viewed on a digital test
meter or on the MATE’s display?

I WAS MEASURING THE AC INPUT VOLTAGE WITH A FLUKE METER AT
THE INPUT CONNECTORS ON THE FX.


Is this a 120/240VAC “split phase” generator

operating with only one inverter on it?  It is possible that
an internal connection in the generators windings has fried
due to overloading one output leg of the generator – its
similar to a bad solder joint where the voltage is OK until
current is pulled and then it opens up.  You might try
putting the inverter on the other leg to see if you see the
same issue.

THIS IS A POSSIBILITY THAT I WILL LOOK INTO. IT IS RUNNING
ON ONE LEG OF A 240V GENSET, NOT THE IDEAL SITUATION.
I'LL BE PUTTING A PSX240 ON IT TO BALANCE THE OUTPUT BUT
WILL FIRST CHECK TO SEE IF IT WILL RUN OK ON THE OTHER LEG
BY ITSELF.



Be sure to check the frequency of the generator when

seeing issues like this – its often the problem.




THAT'S ON THE SHORT LIST, THANKS

Thanks all who have offered suggestions, I'll check
back in with whatever I find out.

Ron Young
earthright - Solareagle






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[RE-wrenches] ice accumulation

[Ron Young]

Hi Wrenches,

I know this is a nice cool subject for these (hopefully) sun filled  
days. I am working on a telecom system that has some issues with ice  
accumulation on the panels that essentially shut the system down mid  
winter. Wondering if anyone has suggestions to remedy the ice  
buildup. It's an extreme mountaintop environment with very high winds  
at times and the ice cakes up to 2" - 3" on surfaces. There are some  
pics here: www.solareagle/temp/ice.html


Access to the site in winter is totally out of the question so we are  
hoping to find some ideas that might prevent or reduce the ice  
accumulation. When the ice shuts the panels down the communications  
go down.


Someone suggested a slippery spray like RainX might help to prevent  
accumulation but I think it would quickly be washed off/worn out and  
I don't know the uv issues that might reduce power output.



Ron
earthRight Solar
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