Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
When did this list become a law list what does any of this have to do with repeater building. I thought this list was for tech discussions. How the list members use the tech info is their problem. Sent by Good Messaging (www.good.com) -Original Message- From: wd8chl [mailto:wd8...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:42 AM Eastern Standard Time To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject:Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet WA3GIN wrote: Let get real...we're making up configurations and drawing conclusions that will perhaps not even be considered. Without being part of the public safety team in this fellas community all these what-ifs are senseless. Each community and its emergency management will decide what works best for them...the fella asked for some technical advice. Lets keep the tread on the technical advice and not try to pretend we can offer more than that without details about the entire system design, architecture and implementation plans... In this guys town a public safety agency might be a part-time assignment for a volunteer fireman. Remember there is 50% of this nations population that doesn't live in the 200 largest cities ;-) Telework is very important to the future of our good old USA...we better figure out how to do it and soon! You need to get real. Fire, police and EMS dispatch have stringent requirements. Several people have brought up the issues with legal and insurance requirements, and if a dept doesn't meet those, they can have their insurance dropped, if (god forbid) something is mis-handled because of this lack, the dept and everyone in it will likely get sued, and the people responsible could even wind up in jail. It has happened here in Ohio-in fact, an entire city was disbanded and the mayor and police chief put in jail by the state for the way the police dept was run. It's not quite the same, but look up New Rome, Ohio. Since 1974, the award-winning Alpert JFCS has helped families of all faiths throughout most of Palm Beach County, FL, via counseling, seniors services, residences for the disabled, mentoring children, support groups and a lot more. SOLUTIONS FOR LIVING www.JFCSonline.com Please take note of our new website and E-Mail Addresses. Please update your contacts ASAP. . NOTICE: This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain legally privileged and confidential information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and please delete it from your computer.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
I agree this is for tech info 73's ki4ljm Marc Lonstein M.O. Unlimited Inc. P.O. Box 5364 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33310-5364 Ph: 954-720-9200 Ph: 561-368-3557 Fax: 561-368-1885 mailto:m...@mounlimited.com mailto:m...@mounlimited.com http://www.mounlimited.com/ www.mounlimited.com This e-mail transmission contains information intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. Further, it contains information that may be privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your e-mail system. Thank you for your compliance. _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Pease Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 7:39 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet When did this list become a law list what does any of this have to do with repeater building. I thought this list was for tech discussions. How the list members use the tech info is their problem. Sent by Good Messaging (www.good.com) -Original Message- From: wd8chl [mailto:wd8chl@ mailto:wd8...@gmail.com gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:42 AM Eastern Standard Time To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject:Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet WA3GIN wrote: Let get real...we're making up configurations and drawing conclusions that will perhaps not even be considered. Without being part of the public safety team in this fellas community all these what-ifs are senseless. Each community and its emergency management will decide what works best for them...the fella asked for some technical advice. Lets keep the tread on the technical advice and not try to pretend we can offer more than that without details about the entire system design, architecture and implementation plans... In this guys town a public safety agency might be a part-time assignment for a volunteer fireman. Remember there is 50% of this nations population that doesn't live in the 200 largest cities ;-) Telework is very important to the future of our good old USA...we better figure out how to do it and soon! You need to get real. Fire, police and EMS dispatch have stringent requirements. Several people have brought up the issues with legal and insurance requirements, and if a dept doesn't meet those, they can have their insurance dropped, if (god forbid) something is mis-handled because of this lack, the dept and everyone in it will likely get sued, and the people responsible could even wind up in jail. It has happened here in Ohio-in fact, an entire city was disbanded and the mayor and police chief put in jail by the state for the way the police dept was run. It's not quite the same, but look up New Rome, Ohio. Since 1974, the award-winning Alpert JFCS has helped families of all faiths throughout most of Palm Beach County, FL, via counseling, seniors services, residences for the disabled, mentoring children, support groups and a lot more. SOLUTIONS FOR LIVING (R) http://www.jfcsonline.com/ www.JFCSonline.com Please take note of our new website and E-Mail Addresses. Please update your contacts ASAP. ___ NOTICE: This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain legally privileged and confidential information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and please delete it from your computer. . __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4740 (20100103) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
I psted tech info but a handful jumped on the band wagon of legalities On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Marc Lonstein ki4...@mounlimited.comwrote: I agree this is for tech info 73's ki4ljm Marc Lonstein M.O. Unlimited Inc. P.O. Box 5364 Fort Lauderdale, FL 33310-5364 Ph: 954-720-9200 Ph: 561-368-3557 Fax: 561-368-1885 mailto:m...@mounlimited.com m...@mounlimited.com ***www.mounlimited.com* http://www.mounlimited.com/ *This e-mail transmission contains information intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. Further, it contains information that may be privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your e-mail system. Thank you for your compliance.* -- *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto: repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert Pease *Sent:* Tuesday, January 05, 2010 7:39 AM *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet When did this list become a law list what does any of this have to do with repeater building. I thought this list was for tech discussions. How the list members use the tech info is their problem. Sent by Good Messaging (www.good.com) -Original Message- From: wd8chl [mailto:wd8...@gmail.com wd8...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:42 AM Eastern Standard Time To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject:Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet WA3GIN wrote: Let get real...we're making up configurations and drawing conclusions that will perhaps not even be considered. Without being part of the public safety team in this fellas community all these what-ifs are senseless. Each community and its emergency management will decide what works best for them...the fella asked for some technical advice. Lets keep the tread on the technical advice and not try to pretend we can offer more than that without details about the entire system design, architecture and implementation plans... In this guys town a public safety agency might be a part-time assignment for a volunteer fireman. Remember there is 50% of this nations population that doesn't live in the 200 largest cities ;-) Telework is very important to the future of our good old USA...we better figure out how to do it and soon! You need to get real. Fire, police and EMS dispatch have stringent requirements. Several people have brought up the issues with legal and insurance requirements, and if a dept doesn't meet those, they can have their insurance dropped, if (god forbid) something is mis-handled because of this lack, the dept and everyone in it will likely get sued, and the people responsible could even wind up in jail. It has happened here in Ohio-in fact, an entire city was disbanded and the mayor and police chief put in jail by the state for the way the police dept was run. It's not quite the same, but look up New Rome, Ohio. Since 1974, the award-winning Alpert JFCS has helped families of all faiths throughout most of Palm Beach County, FL, via counseling, seniors services, residences for the disabled, mentoring children, support groups and a lot more. * SOLUTIONS FOR LIVING (R)* *www.JFCSonline.com* http://www.jfcsonline.com/ * Please take note of our new website and E-Mail Addresses. * * Please update your contacts ASAP. * ___ NOTICE: This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain legally privileged and confidential information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and please delete it from your computer. . __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4740 (20100103) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
On 1/4/2010 2:03 PM, Jed Barton wrote: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed I was going to bring up my usual rants about building things right when doing VoIP linking, but I've come up with a new way to deal with this recurring question from well-meaning folks who just want to save some money... Ask your constituents. If they agree that the dispatchers can sit at home and work reliably when they're bleeding to death in a car wreck, go for it. Otherwise, no matter how expensive it is, they probably expect something better from their tax dollars and you'll have to get them to go fight for a real budget for you, hopefully at the expense of some other local government pork project, and not by raising taxes. Priorities, priorities... Let us know which area you live in so we can all call the Press and have them come over to ask some pointed questions of your elected officials who are directing you to even THINK about using cheap VoIP solutions, without an experienced IP Network Engineer involved, for Public Safety Dispatch. Seriously. You don't sound qualified to be building this, even if it were a good idea. If I lived there I'd want someone who'd had at least 15 or more years of IP networking design in a high-availability zero-downtime environment designing such a system. And residential broadband ALWAYS comes with the disclaimer that it's 100% NOT guaranteed. Ever. There's network design flaw #1. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
On 1/4/2010 2:33 PM, wd8chl wrote: Security is also a big issue with trying to use the internet for something like this. Anyone with a little knowledge can hack into it and do whatever. Who needs to hack? All common VoIP protocols in use are sniffable and playable from 100% free tools like Wireshark. All that's required is a copy of the packets... piece of cake. We do it all the time for troubleshooting in the VoIP telco hardware vendor world. This whole plan probably also runs afoul of HIPPA regulations for Medical dispatch, once you start sending un-encrypted VoIP to a residential IP from the dispatch center, now that I think a little more about it. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
On 1/4/2010 4:24 PM, Randy Ross wrote: Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. We better shut down the mailing list then, it'll never work. LOL! You need to rephrase that whole sentence. The Internet isn't inherently unstable at all. It's just not built for circuit-switched voice. It CAN be used as transport for voice with the right design, monitoring, and EXPENSE... but if you're going to go through all of the necessary questions and redundant hardware tests to get that level of service, you might as well just pay for a POTS line which comes with highly-redundant hardware driving it, and battery backup thrown in for free. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Must be me, but at 7:28m, our leader Kevin said 'this thread is OVER.' Jim - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet On 1/4/2010 4:24 PM, Randy Ross wrote: Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. We better shut down the mailing list then, it'll never work. LOL! You need to rephrase that whole sentence. The Internet isn't inherently unstable at all. It's just not built for circuit-switched voice. It CAN be used as transport for voice with the right design, monitoring, and EXPENSE... but if you're going to go through all of the necessary questions and redundant hardware tests to get that level of service, you might as well just pay for a POTS line which comes with highly-redundant hardware driving it, and battery backup thrown in for free. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
On 1/4/2010 5:20 PM, Bill Smith wrote: VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP isn't the problem, it's the transport medium. Or more accurately, lack of a backup/redundant transport medium beyond the data center. The last mile has always been the problem. Backhoe fade affects the PSTN just as much as it affects the IP network. The PSTN is slowly moving over to IP transport as their back office connectivity as well... but they're paying big bucks for redundant underground routes, hardware that can handle switching to the backup routes, people to test that these backups WORK on a regular basis, and to design it in the first place. A residential IP connection meets none of the requirements for anything like that, but it is typically just as vulnerable to backhoe fade as the POTS line. Our VoIP strategy for our PBX at work is designed like this: a) require IP connectivity to control the call via a PC application. (All agents must open tickets anyway, so if they don't have IP connectivity, they're done for the day.) b) Primary voice is via a SIP client on the PC. If quality is bad... c) Secondary voice is the PBX still has PSTN connectivity at the office, and can dial out to cell or home POTS lines, so there's two more network transports. d) All ACD PBX's are cross-strapped via SIP trunks and can dial out into the PSTN from multiple locations in multiple countries if their primary routes out are dead/not-working. e) Personal desk phone lines are NEVER mixed on the same VoIP PBX as ACD/customer inbound traffic. That's a completely different and redundant PBX system. NONE of this is anywhere NEAR reliable enough for 911 dispatch. If we hang up on someone by accident in the middle of a call, no one dies. We just call them back. Dispatcher's kid fires up BitTorrent to download illegal copies of DVD's/CD's, and jams the upstream connection so that the VoIP (typically UDP packets) get dropped going back to the dispatch office, and they drop a call right when someone's giving their address... Not to mention, how you going to support E911 in that environment? Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
I'm waiting to here on this thread that it must be the President's fault this guy asked the question, haha. When are we going back to tech talk? I don't really care much to read some people's subjective opinions regarding this guy's concept nor do I want to wear out my delete key. This guys motivation or his bosses directive is none of our business pro or con. The Emergency Managment, Emergency Call Center, Radio Manager and Information Security Officer qualified folks on this reflector know what the applicable regulations and DOJ requirements are and we sure don't need to hear about it from the what if experts... I'm beginning to wonder if someone just planted this topic to watch this reflector self-distruct, DUH! - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet On 1/4/2010 2:33 PM, wd8chl wrote: Security is also a big issue with trying to use the internet for something like this. Anyone with a little knowledge can hack into it and do whatever. Who needs to hack? All common VoIP protocols in use are sniffable and playable from 100% free tools like Wireshark. All that's required is a copy of the packets... piece of cake. We do it all the time for troubleshooting in the VoIP telco hardware vendor world. This whole plan probably also runs afoul of HIPPA regulations for Medical dispatch, once you start sending un-encrypted VoIP to a residential IP from the dispatch center, now that I think a little more about it. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
On 1/4/2010 5:32 PM, WA3GIN wrote: Don, You have pointed out some valid concerns but the world doesn't care...VOIP is cost effective for day to day operations and everyone is going there as fast as they can...the fact that everyone is going there will bring the reliability you indicate is needed, before too long. And you don't switch the dispatch office over to it until it is. Just remember the telcos weren't that reliable for decades... And dispatch offices used RF to avoid them. but the world is changing and there ain't muc we can do about it except trying to bring the best ideas and concepts to the planning meetings to ensure as best we can that these networks have adequate redundancy, cyber security, etc. BS. You don't plan to lower quality in a dispatch office. You bring the ideas to the meeting to say, It's not really ready for us yet, sorry. Or you work a little harder and analyze the redundancy and uptime of the existing system, then do the same analysis on the system you're switching to... and show they're not equal, and ask the public served by the agency the their elected representatives if they can live with that for the cost-savings. (I haven't seen any tax refunds back because my local 911 dispatch center went to VoIP yet. They haven't, but if they do... I'll enjoy you guys handing back the cash. Yeah, right. Not happening. So keep the money, and do it right please. Last I checked, I'm paying for it.) Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
On 1/5/2010 4:17 PM, WA3GIN wrote: I'm waiting to here on this thread that it must be the President's fault this guy asked the question, haha. When are we going back to tech talk? I just sent an apology. I read the list and reply to messages in order received. Just as a side-note for your edification, VoIP and IP design and how to troubleshoot such technologies (e.g. packet sniffers) *is* ... talking tech these days. Just so you're aware. Anyone who knows me, knows I've been involved in multiple pioneering efforts to bring VoIP linking to Amateur Radio for over a decade now. My beef with this guy's question is that it showed a lack of proper engineering DESIGN, and requirements planning, not any problem with the technology being proposed. Proper engineering design is what we're all shooting for, even on our hobby radio systems, right? In this case he was asking about a professional system and has less knowledge of VoIP than the HOBBYISTS here... so he'd better find a pro and find one quick. :-) Anyway, have a nice evening. Oh wait, I almost forgot... Yes, there IS a secret plan to destroy the Internet by having side-conversations like those that normally happen in person when talking to other humans. It's been going on since the USENET days. (Maybe the conspiracy extends all the way back to BBS's and FidoNet but we're not sure. The original founders of The Plan are shrouded in mystery.) I'm sure The Plan will be effective soon and the world will come to an end. One of the major components of the plan is to get people to react with snide remarks, which makes it all work so very well! ;-) Hahaha... Nate WY0X I don't really care much to read some people's subjective opinions regarding this guy's concept nor do I want to wear out my delete key. This guys motivation or his bosses directive is none of our business pro or con. The Emergency Managment, Emergency Call Center, Radio Manager and Information Security Officer qualified folks on this reflector know what the applicable regulations and DOJ requirements are and we sure don't need to hear about it from the what if experts... I'm beginning to wonder if someone just planted this topic to watch this reflector self-distruct, DUH! - Original Message - *From:* Nate Duehr mailto:n...@natetech.com *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet On 1/4/2010 2:33 PM, wd8chl wrote: Security is also a big issue with trying to use the internet for something like this. Anyone with a little knowledge can hack into it and do whatever. Who needs to hack? All common VoIP protocols in use are sniffable and playable from 100% free tools like Wireshark. All that's required is a copy of the packets... piece of cake. We do it all the time for troubleshooting in the VoIP telco hardware vendor world. This whole plan probably also runs afoul of HIPPA regulations for Medical dispatch, once you start sending un-encrypted VoIP to a residential IP from the dispatch center, now that I think a little more about it. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Your first mistake is making the assumption this would be done on a standard residential connection. You can get commercial and better systems to a resident, but only at business expenses. There would be no need to have anything other then the dedicated system on it. Many companies do this anyways for those wholike to telecommute, I know of several in the DC metro area that do this as well as many others throught the country, and they too have zero down time because the system is not so hard to implement. I would agree with you if a person was using a standard residential line. On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 5:14 PM, Nate Duehr n...@natetech.com wrote: On 1/4/2010 5:20 PM, Bill Smith wrote: VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP isn't the problem, it's the transport medium. Or more accurately, lack of a backup/redundant transport medium beyond the data center. The last mile has always been the problem. Backhoe fade affects the PSTN just as much as it affects the IP network. The PSTN is slowly moving over to IP transport as their back office connectivity as well... but they're paying big bucks for redundant underground routes, hardware that can handle switching to the backup routes, people to test that these backups WORK on a regular basis, and to design it in the first place. A residential IP connection meets none of the requirements for anything like that, but it is typically just as vulnerable to backhoe fade as the POTS line. Our VoIP strategy for our PBX at work is designed like this: a) require IP connectivity to control the call via a PC application. (All agents must open tickets anyway, so if they don't have IP connectivity, they're done for the day.) b) Primary voice is via a SIP client on the PC. If quality is bad... c) Secondary voice is the PBX still has PSTN connectivity at the office, and can dial out to cell or home POTS lines, so there's two more network transports. d) All ACD PBX's are cross-strapped via SIP trunks and can dial out into the PSTN from multiple locations in multiple countries if their primary routes out are dead/not-working. e) Personal desk phone lines are NEVER mixed on the same VoIP PBX as ACD/customer inbound traffic. That's a completely different and redundant PBX system. NONE of this is anywhere NEAR reliable enough for 911 dispatch. If we hang up on someone by accident in the middle of a call, no one dies. We just call them back. Dispatcher's kid fires up BitTorrent to download illegal copies of DVD's/CD's, and jams the upstream connection so that the VoIP (typically UDP packets) get dropped going back to the dispatch office, and they drop a call right when someone's giving their address... Not to mention, how you going to support E911 in that environment? Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
It ain't repeater tech talk and you forgot to blame it on the president ;-) I'm already having a nice evening but thanks anyway...I just read the note from this morning that this thread is OVER! Best, dave - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet On 1/5/2010 4:17 PM, WA3GIN wrote: I'm waiting to here on this thread that it must be the President's fault this guy asked the question, haha. When are we going back to tech talk? I just sent an apology. I read the list and reply to messages in order received. Just as a side-note for your edification, VoIP and IP design and how to troubleshoot such technologies (e.g. packet sniffers) *is* ... talking tech these days. Just so you're aware. Anyone who knows me, knows I've been involved in multiple pioneering efforts to bring VoIP linking to Amateur Radio for over a decade now. My beef with this guy's question is that it showed a lack of proper engineering DESIGN, and requirements planning, not any problem with the technology being proposed. Proper engineering design is what we're all shooting for, even on our hobby radio systems, right? In this case he was asking about a professional system and has less knowledge of VoIP than the HOBBYISTS here... so he'd better find a pro and find one quick. :-) Anyway, have a nice evening. Oh wait, I almost forgot... Yes, there IS a secret plan to destroy the Internet by having side-conversations like those that normally happen in person when talking to other humans. It's been going on since the USENET days. (Maybe the conspiracy extends all the way back to BBS's and FidoNet but we're not sure. The original founders of The Plan are shrouded in mystery.) I'm sure The Plan will be effective soon and the world will come to an end. One of the major components of the plan is to get people to react with snide remarks, which makes it all work so very well! ;-) Hahaha... Nate WY0X I don't really care much to read some people's subjective opinions regarding this guy's concept nor do I want to wear out my delete key. This guys motivation or his bosses directive is none of our business pro or con. The Emergency Managment, Emergency Call Center, Radio Manager and Information Security Officer qualified folks on this reflector know what the applicable regulations and DOJ requirements are and we sure don't need to hear about it from the what if experts... I'm beginning to wonder if someone just planted this topic to watch this reflector self-distruct, DUH! - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet On 1/4/2010 2:33 PM, wd8chl wrote: Security is also a big issue with trying to use the internet for something like this. Anyone with a little knowledge can hack into it and do whatever. Who needs to hack? All common VoIP protocols in use are sniffable and playable from 100% free tools like Wireshark. All that's required is a copy of the packets... piece of cake. We do it all the time for troubleshooting in the VoIP telco hardware vendor world. This whole plan probably also runs afoul of HIPPA regulations for Medical dispatch, once you start sending un-encrypted VoIP to a residential IP from the dispatch center, now that I think a little more about it. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet - just a personal experience
Just a personal experience with residential Internet: Northeast power blackout of 2003 The power went out. Our PCs and cable modem were on UPS. I brought the PCs down gracefully and waited. After a half an hour, I started my generator and booted the PCs. It was about an hour after the failure when the Comcast broadband and their cable TV vanished. No problem, I switched to my backup ISP with dial-up. I dialed and got their modem to answer and connect. No response other than the modem connecting. (Just months before, I dropped my Earthlink two-way satellite service because the Comcast was reliable. Sigh.) Cell phone service (Verizon) was very spotty with occasional connects. The POTS worked fine. Our local 800 MHz system was not fully implemented yet. Few hams were on the 2 meter repeaters. We used ham radio to coordinate generators for dialysis machines for patients, etc. The local city had four radio stations (population about 30,000). They got a couple on the air after a while, but they carried their satellite talk radio, music, and commercials. A decade earlier their news departments would have been competing to report; but they were acquired by one national company and now had all their automated studios in the same building. We kept listening to their news broadcasts, but there didn't seem to be local, just national network items. I hooked up an outside TV antenna (fringe) and was able to get Detroit TV stations for us to find out what was happening. I've heard that Comcast is now providing a local battery for their VOIP boxes. We had AC power for our cable modem and TVs; the problem was elsewhere in their system. At the end of the second day I was starting to siphon fuel from the vehicles to run the generator. I was glad we use the always above one-half tank rule. It was strange driving at night in the city with no stop lights and no street lights, and all the businesses were dark; quite disorienting. Traffic coming off the freeway was a big jam. One friend observed that, even though there was heavy traffic and he had to come to a full stop at every stop light for the cross traffic, it took him less time to drive across town then when the lights are working. Nate Duehr wrote: Or more accurately, lack of a backup/redundant transport medium beyond the data center. The last mile has always been the problem. Backhoe fade affects the PSTN just as much as it affects the IP network. The PSTN is slowly moving over to IP transport as their back office connectivity as well... but they're paying big bucks for redundant underground routes, hardware that can handle switching to the backup routes, people to test that these backups WORK on a regular basis, and to design it in the first place. A residential IP connection meets none of the requirements for anything like that, but it is typically just as vulnerable to backhoe fade as the POTS line. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Boy, where to begin. First, I'd check with the insurance carrier regarding your proposal to locate dispatch in a private home. I can see all sorts of snarled lawsuits when something goes wrong. Maybe someone loosing their home in the suit as well. From a technical standpoint, you need redundancy. If you are bent on using the Internet, make sure you also have a backup path, like some type of RF system. Can you afford to not be able to dispatch for hours when the Internet goes down because a car crashed into a pole, taking the lines down that were your Internet connection, and the occupants are bleeding to death, but the dispatcher can't dispatch the call? I'll stop here. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:03 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 03:24:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
check out the IP-223. it may fit your needs. http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
IRLP.net Talk to Dave C. Dave has some systems like you are thinking of doing . its a private IRLP system what I hear it works very well Rick On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Chris Robinson kf6...@gmail.com wrote: check out the IP-223. it may fit your needs. http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Chris Robinson To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet check out the IP-223. it may fit your needs.http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 03:24:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
So you would route and forward 911 calls to someones house? Are we talking about controling the radio and the console or just the console ? Does the radio interface to the console ? ( BTW I assume this is an onscreen console or virtual console not a real nuts and bolts thing which makes it a little more interesting) How far is the dispatch center from the offsite employee? What is your strategy for fall over when the net goes down ? ROIP is doable, but to have it bullet proof and secure it is not cheap and the words T1 come to mind Another group I work with who knows more I will let you know who they are outside of the list. The other way is to use a remote application like BOMGAR and go in and control the virtual dispatch console, you then use a radio at the employees house to dispatch calls and take care of radio traffic (repeaters enable this well). The 911 calls are forewarded from the real or virtual phone switch so they can still be recorded and logged. They forward to a land line rather than a cell phone. Many years ago we used to port the 911 calls into the radio system and if the dispatcher did not pick up for some reason the local fire house was aware of the call and would start roilling. .The local fire house could patch into the phone via a hard phone line and talk to the caller by conferecing into the call. All lines were secure within the phone network so an outsider could not intercept the phone call once the coneection was made.The incident report would contain the information required so nothing was lost, this goes back a long ways though and I have no idea what the legal in and out of this would be from a security and confidentiality issue. Worth while project just make sure the ability to make this work at muliple locations is possible. Would not want to favor one employee over another. --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote: From: Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 1:03 PM Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Jed; There are certainly options to pass radio audio and keying over the internet in VOIP or equivalent scenarios. I would also mention there are several agencies who have regulations on how calls are answered and dispatched... Your solution would seem to require some approvals if involves 911.. A cheap and dirty IP based solution may not meet the legal requirements and implied service requirements of your municipals insurance company. I would think you need to verify it is legal to do what you want let alone insured... then find a solution that satisfies those parties... Doug KD8B At 04:03 PM 1/4/2010, you wrote: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
tell me about this system a little bit. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:25 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Chris Robinson mailto:kf6...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet check out the IP-223. it may fit your needs.http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com mailto:j...@jedbarton.com wrote: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 03:24:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
the phone system we're thinking of going with is a system called ring central. It's a system i am very familiar with, and have a ton of experience with. Curious if you have done the VOIP thing before in a dispatch environment. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Bade Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Jed; There are certainly options to pass radio audio and keying over the internet in VOIP or equivalent scenarios. I would also mention there are several agencies who have regulations on how calls are answered and dispatched... Your solution would seem to require some approvals if involves 911.. A cheap and dirty IP based solution may not meet the legal requirements and implied service requirements of your municipals insurance company. I would think you need to verify it is legal to do what you want let alone insured... then find a solution that satisfies those parties... Doug KD8B At 04:03 PM 1/4/2010, you wrote: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
We've got a backup plan in place already, not to worry. I already factored that in. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:18 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Boy, where to begin. First, I'd check with the insurance carrier regarding your proposal to locate dispatch in a private home. I can see all sorts of snarled lawsuits when something goes wrong. Maybe someone loosing their home in the suit as well. From a technical standpoint, you need redundancy. If you are bent on using the Internet, make sure you also have a backup path, like some type of RF system. Can you afford to not be able to dispatch for hours when the Internet goes down because a car crashed into a pole, taking the lines down that were your Internet connection, and the occupants are bleeding to death, but the dispatcher can't dispatch the call? I'll stop here. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com mailto:jed%40jedbarton.com To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:repeater-builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:03 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 03:24:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Security is also a big issue with trying to use the internet for something like this. Anyone with a little knowledge can hack into it and do whatever. Chuck Kelsey wrote: You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Chris Robinson To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet check out the IP-223. it may fit your needs.http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 03:24:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
WOW-if anyone thinks that the Internet is a mission critical network, I don't, it is certainly not a 5-9's reliable network. Secondly I would be concerned about the PSAP liability-if they hand off a call and it does not get delivered-if you were my client-which you are not, I would advise strongly against this approach-I see too many issues, and not enough benefit. Andy From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wd8chl Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:34 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Security is also a big issue with trying to use the internet for something like this. Anyone with a little knowledge can hack into it and do whatever. Chuck Kelsey wrote: You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Chris Robinson To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet check out the IP-223. it may fit your needs.http://www.northms2way.com/IP-223_BROCHURE.pdf On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com mailto:jed%40jedbarton.com wrote: Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to setup a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the relyability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we'reusing a virtual phone system that has proven relyability. Thanks, Jed -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 03:24:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Kevin is on the right track. At my day job, I am the CEO of a state research data networking -- this stuff is actually what pays the bills to spend time with repeaters on the weekends. I'm not sure if the credentials mean anything here or not, but FWIW. If this FD is in a relatively isolated geographic area, as are the dispatchers -- like smaller more rural area, then the chance is that the same ISP can be used for all of the connections -- so while an ISP is being used, the ISPs own network is what's being used, not really the Internet. Such a project could be as successful as many other methods for remote dispatch in this case. Just make sure that there is some sort of SLA in place. Typically, on-network SLAs for the kind of bandwidth this application needs is on the order of a business account. Assuming this is really just typical dispatch, it's 1/2 duplex, and will be significantly more tolerant of jitter and latency than, say, a real-time application. As for privacy, I know that most any VPN technology (include a great number of non-encrypted ones) are considered secure for HIPAA, FERPA, etc., however many of them I do not trust. In the end, if securing data is really important to you, never rely on a third-party transport provider to do it. In the end, it's going to come back to you and not the transport provider. If this is a concern, I would use strong encryption on the data before passing it to the transport provider -- such as using encrypted L3-L3 VPN tunnels back to the FD head end from each remote. On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:55 PM, Kevin Custer wrote: The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV -- Cort Buffington H: +1-785-838-3034 M: +1-785-865-7206 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custermailto:kug...@kuggie.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.commailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Many cities utilize dark fiber provided by the cable companies (the Internet). WEBEOC is WEB based, ala the Internet. Here in Arlington County the County's fiber network is mostly provided by Comcast Cable with some County owned fiber. Some commercial fiber networks are self-healing and provide better reliability than microwave networks used to interconnect 800 P25. You drive across the USA and you will find every possible type of network implementation known to man being utilized by public safety. I once read about a group that hand built from scratch 802.11 access points to construct their own little wireless mesh network. It wouldn't happen in NYC where they have more than 10,000 fire and police employees but in a smallish county with 10-20,000 consituents and very little tax revenues public safety has to make do. What we would like and what we can afford is two different things. I just recently read where the State of Georgia was just issued $165,000 Fed. Grant to build a D-STAR state wide network. What a waste of tax dollars. OH yeah, great technology but how many ham volunteers in the state can afford the $600 handheld radios? I don't think the grant is paying for a handheld for every ham in the state where currently 99% who have VHF radios are on analog. DUH. Enjoy, dave wa3gin - Original Message - From: Randy Ross To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:24 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and yes I have had training in the area) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: rr...@librtynet.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV _ Looking for a great date? Meet singles at ninemsn dating http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
exactly what i thought. People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and yes I have had training in the area) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: rr...@librtynet.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV Meet singles at ninemsn dating Looking for a great date? http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
again check out the hardware link I posted earlier. The IP-223 is designed for commercial use and is very cutting edge as well as versatile. it is backwards and forward compatible. Then again I dont know anything, I only owned a communications company, and while I truly dont know much about many systems, the IP-223 I am very familiar with as well as other Telex and Vega hardware. I read the OP's question as asking about hardware not the ins and outs of insurance and such. I dont feel the need in going into areas that arent asked! Bah Humbug! On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote: exactly what i thought. People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and yes I have had training in the area) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com From: rr...@librtynet.com rross%40librtynet.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com kuggie%40kuggie.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV Meet singles at ninemsn dating Looking for a great date? http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while. Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out because the power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things. the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems. --Don On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote: exactly what i thought. People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and yes I have had training in the area) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: rr...@librtynet.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet for this device. It is marketed for use on a private LAN/WAN. Chuck WB2EDV Meet singles at ninemsn dating Looking for a great date? http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/150855801/direct/01/ Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP isn't the problem, it's the transport medium. Bill --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com wrote: From: Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 6:08 PM try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while. Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out because the power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things. the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems. --Don On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote: exactly what i thought. People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and yes I have had training in the area) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: rr...@librtynet.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
voip can be very relyable. You just have to set it up right. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Smith Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:21 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP isn't the problem, it's the transport medium. Bill --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com wrote: From: Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 6:08 PM try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while. Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out because the power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things. the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems. --Don On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote: exactly what i thought. People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c om [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c om ] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c om Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and yes I have had training in the area) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c om From: rr...@librtynet.com http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rr...@librtynet.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c om [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc624.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.c om ] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com http
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Don, You have pointed out some valid concerns but the world doesn't care...VOIP is cost effective for day to day operations and everyone is going there as fast as they can...the fact that everyone is going there will bring the reliability you indicate is needed, before too long. Just remember the telcos weren't that reliable for decades...but the world is changing and there ain't muc we can do about it except trying to bring the best ideas and concepts to the planning meetings to ensure as best we can that these networks have adequate redundancy, cyber security, etc. Best, dave wa3gin - Original Message - From: Bill Smith To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:20 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP isn't the problem, it's the transport medium. Bill --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com wrote: From: Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 6:08 PM try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while. Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out because the power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things. the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems. --Don On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote: exactly what i thought. People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and yes I have had training in the area) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: rr...@librtynet.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
There is no system that is fool proof or infallible. I deal with RF links that fail all the time in major cities across the country. Lets consider how many dispatch centers are moving to remote dispatch or even using IP based systems. I know that Woodbury county Iowa just upgraded their system to a nice beautiful IP based system. Any one who considers doing so is actually on cutting edge grounds. Lets also consider that in order for the system to work at home, there do have to be safe guards in place to protect system integrity, so the excuse of being robbed or loss of power is a joke, there are redundant systems to assist in this area. Thegreatest risk I see actually is employee quits or is terminated and then the cost of system removal and re-install at a new location. However if a smaller dedicated building is used to supplement the dispatch center then this can be a controlled access point and easily maintainable. I am sure the OP has no intention of just contacting the local ISP and requesting a residential account for Life/safety applications. To get a back haul and secure line is not difficult. I do it all the time for major agencies, mostly over Vsat but none the less an IP based system. I am about to donate this keyboard to the roadway out front,the damn spacebar is givingupon me On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.comwrote: try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while. Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out because the power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things. the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems. --Don On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote: exactly what i thought. People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.comrepeater-builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and yes I have had training in the area) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com From: rr...@librtynet.com rross%40librtynet.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com kuggie
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
I used to be very reluctant to rely on VoIP technology, over the internet or otherwise. About 1-1/2 years ago, I was forced to install a VoIP link to one of our remote tower sites in Missouri (I'm a radio engineer for the Missouri Highway Patrol). The tower site was too far for a UHF remote control link, and we didn't have the money for multiple microwave hops. In addition, there was no telephone lines there, but we had IP on a local electric company backbone. So, we never really go to the Internet so to speak. We started out using JPS NXU-2A's and they were great, but had too much latency. Close to a second by the time you add in their synchronization and codec latency to our pipe latency. So, we switched to the Telex IP-223's and they work equally as well, just much less latency and many more bells and whistles. I have not had a SINGLE outage, unlike our other sites that we lease a 56k digital data circuit from. So much for SLA's! Some sites are down for as much as a week, and that's with me hounding them every so many hours, or literally driving to the phone company's CO in the town closest to my tower site. Since then, we have installed two other VoIP links in other parts of the state. One uses DSL on both ends - never an outage. The other uses a cable modem on one end and a wireless internet provider on the other - never an outage. If you're using an NXU-2A, you could have a static IP at a repeater site, and the user could connect up with free software called PC NXU (also by JPS) and use their laptop or desktop PC as their console. Only problem is that one person can be connected at a time. Not sure if there's a way around this or not, not that I'm aware of. Though I still have some reservations of totally relying on VoIP over the Internet or other means, I am becoming more of a believer every day. The Internet providers are all about keeping their equipment up, and the phone companies seem to be becoming less and less interested in keeping their circuits up and running. On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:32 PM, WA3GIN wa3...@comcast.net wrote: Don, You have pointed out some valid concerns but the world doesn't care...VOIP is cost effective for day to day operations and everyone is going there as fast as they can...the fact that everyone is going there will bring the reliability you indicate is needed, before too long. Just remember the telcos weren't that reliable for decades...but the world is changing and there ain't muc we can do about it except trying to bring the best ideas and concepts to the planning meetings to ensure as best we can that these networks have adequate redundancy, cyber security, etc. Best, dave wa3gin - Original Message - *From:* Bill Smith brsc...@yahoo.com *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Monday, January 04, 2010 7:20 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP isn't the problem, it's the transport medium. Bill --- On *Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com* wrote: From: Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 6:08 PM try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while. Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out because the power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things. the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at banning
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Jed; What you ask is more of a legal issue than technical. There are several products built to transport voice/radio over IP and at least 2 have been mentioned in this thread.. But.. before you start buying equipment I think you need to deal with the legal and liability issues.. this has nothing to do with technical.. it has to do with state and/or federal laws.. In my state a 911 call center has to be manned full time 24x7 and cannot be switched from one center to another ( or in your case dispatchers houses) . It is just not permitted... I am assuming most states have similar laws.. actually routing the call is not the issue... If you cannot comply with the 24x7x365 from a manned single point.. I do not think you can run a 911 PSAP dispatch center.. I am not talking about switching for backups.. I am talking about switching for shift coverage or day/night type scenarios. Now ... if your County Seat ( Sheriffs Office etc..) handles 911 calls and all you want to do is deal with non emergency and voice dispatch of non essential traffic.. that is another matter... There are VOIP and ROIP solutions for remote controlling radios. There are Wireless Consoles on IP based systems.. Almost ALL Public Safety IP based linking system that I have ever seen have a requirement of a finite fixed or controlled latency which as mentioned by others means a private network, or private within a public network or some equivalent Service Level Agreement that will make sure it will be.. There are commercial applications of ROIP such as http://www.xelatec.com/xippr/products who offer software and hardware to remote control transceivers.. These are business class solutions but are well established.. They have plenty of roots in amateur linking as well as commercial systems... it is largely based on Asterisk PBX. Another product group of hardware is referred to TDM over IP.. these systems create framed T1's etc over IP backhaul ( private or private over public networks) but latency and jitter must be controlled.. anything from 4 wire EM over IP to 56k and up to T1 or even multi T1. IDA Corporation also makes Radio over IP control hardware.. I do have recent experience with those products.. and I can also say that product group seems to be in at least one major manufacturer's IP based desktop Control Station radio hardware.. supporting IP based remotes or standard dc or tone remotes... Doug KD8B Jed Barton wrote: the phone system we're thinking of going with is a system called ring central. It's a system i am very familiar with, and have a ton of experience with. Curious if you have done the VOIP thing before in a dispatch environment. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Bade Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 4:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Jed; There are certainly options to pass radio audio and keying over the internet in VOIP or equivalent scenarios. I would also mention there are several agencies who have regulations on how calls are answered and dispatched... Your solution would seem to require some approvals if involves 911.. A cheap and dirty IP based solution may not meet the legal requirements and implied service requirements of your municipals insurance company. I would think you need to verify it is legal to do what you want let alone insured... then find a solution that satisfies those parties... Doug KD8B At 04:03 PM 1/4/2010, you wrote:
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
I can't but ask the question - mission critical with out a UPS backup? Yeah, ok, you bring up somegood points. Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Don E. Wisdom To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while. Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out because the power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things. the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems. --Don On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jed Barton wrote: exactly what i thought. People can say relyability, but your internet connection is probably a hell of a lot more relyable than a typical verizon phone line. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:43 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet It's done very day ,a good vpn and intranet and very difficult to interfere, with short of a direct physical connection there is little better so I don't understand all the fuss . Some one posted a good remote radio controller so the rest is down to the skills of the system admin B ( and yes I have had training in the area) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: rr...@librtynet.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:24:08 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Given the inherit instability of the internet (it was NEVER designed to do what we are doing with it), I would consider any communications system which is reliant upon the internet to be flawed by design and completely untrustworthy. My two cents worth. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WA3GIN Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:23 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Yes, and they are called Intranets. - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer mailto:kug...@kuggie.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet The Internet is a shared medium. A private WAN/LAN commonly utilizes fiber optic cable or licensed wireless networking to accomplish connectivity. While private systems can deliver Internet, it is not (necessarily) THE Internet. Privately owned facilities like what many CATV, Phone, Internet, and combinations of them can have dark fiber or reserved virtual space that cannot get clogged with Internet overhead. The bottlenecking you might experience with facilities you cannot (do not) control can (will) be the downfall of such a system - unless a SLA can be gotten. A SLA is a service level agreement in which a company guarantees connectivity - to some degree. The more reliability the agreement extends - the higher the cost. Kevin Custer Jed Barton wrote: tell me about this system a little bit. You'll note that the manufacturer is not suggesting that you utilize the Internet
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Jed, Whether or not it CAN be done is not an issue. The issue is whether it SHOULD be done. The notion of a public safety agency operating an alerting system that is based at someone's home, using privately-contracted phone lines, is really frightening! What if the dispatcher is indisposed when an emergency call comes in? What if the teenager in the house is tying up the Internet connection with XBOX? Will any insurance company indemnify the at-home dispatcher if a call is unanswered and someone dies? Fire departments deserve and require professional dispatch personnel at a duty position. I disagree with your conclusion that the Internet is more reliable than a Verizon phone line. I know of no peer-reviewed study that supports such a statement. Moreover, since a copper telephone connection is about as reliable as communication can be, I think the reverse is true. In fact, my Verizon phone line has never failed- in the 35-some years I have had it, but my Internet connection has failed many, many times. I do not mean to imply that Verizon is any more or less reliable than any other wireline provider- only that a copper CO connection from any provider is probably more reliable than any Internet connection. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jed Barton Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:04 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to set up a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the reliability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we're using a virtual phone system that has proven reliability. Thanks, Jed
RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
time is of the essence From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 8:35 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Jed, Whether or not it CAN be done is not an issue. The issue is whether it SHOULD be done. The notion of a public safety agency operating an alerting system that is based at someone's home, using privately-contracted phone lines, is really frightening! What if the dispatcher is indisposed when an emergency call comes in? What if the teenager in the house is tying up the Internet connection with XBOX? Will any insurance company indemnify the at-home dispatcher if a call is unanswered and someone dies? Fire departments deserve and require professional dispatch personnel at a duty position. I disagree with your conclusion that the Internet is more reliable than a Verizon phone line. I know of no peer-reviewed study that supports such a statement. Moreover, since a copper telephone connection is about as reliable as communication can be, I think the reverse is true. In fact, my Verizon phone line has never failed- in the 35-some years I have had it, but my Internet connection has failed many, many times. I do not mean to imply that Verizon is any more or less reliable than any other wireline provider- only that a copper CO connection from any provider is probably more reliable than any Internet connection. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jed Barton Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:04 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:repeater-builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to set up a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the reliability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we're using a virtual phone system that has proven reliability. Thanks, Jed No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10 13:35:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
I keep wondering - isn't there a County dispatch center and why wouldn't dispatch simply be handled from there? Most counties have a mutual aid agreement in place for all the fire departments and typically a single dispatch center is shared by them all. Seems the most logical and cost-effective method. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jed Barton Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:04 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Hey guys, I am working on a project and am wondering if anyone has done this. Here's the proposal, to set up a dispatch center for an FD, where the dispatchers can sit at home and work the entire thing. This is not a very busy department, that's why they thought it would be good to do it. I've done a lot of research, and it can certainly be done. This obviously brings up a lot of debate for a number of reasons. In looking at it though, the reliability of the net is very good compared to a verizon phone line. Curious if anyone has done something like this before. For the phone system, we're using a virtual phone system that has proven reliability. Thanks, Jed
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Let get real...we're making up configurations and drawing conclusions that will perhaps not even be considered. Without being part of the public safety team in this fellas community all these what-ifs are senseless. Each community and its emergency management will decide what works best for them...the fella asked for some technical advice. Lets keep the tread on the technical advice and not try to pretend we can offer more than that without details about the entire system design, architecture and implementation plans... In this guys town a public safety agency might be a part-time assignment for a volunteer fireman. Remember there is 50% of this nations population that doesn't live in the 200 largest cities ;-) Telework is very important to the future of our good old USA...we better figure out how to do it and soon! - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:34 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet Jed, Whether or not it CAN be done is not an issue. The issue is whether it SHOULD be done. The notion of a public safety agency operating an alerting system that is based at someone's home, using privately-contracted phone lines, is really frightening! What if the dispatcher is indisposed when an emergency call comes in? What if the..
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
Don has it right. Using an inTERnet connection is not acceptable for this application. Only a closed, private network (inTRAnet) is even barely acceptable, and then there is still the problem of what is called backhoe fade. Pretty self explanatory. Jed Barton wrote: voip can be very relyable. You just have to set it up right. On Behalf Of Bill Smith VoIP is used daily and has been for over five years for mission-critical applications such major electric and gas utilities and public safety. VoIP isn't the problem, it's the transport medium. Bill --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Don E. Wisdom d...@engineeringinc.com wrote: try again. I am a network engineer and I can tell you all it takes is one mistake or routing loop extended power failure etc and your down for a while. Anyone who would even think about doing this over the internet needs their head checked. Ask yourself this question... If your power goes out at home you have comcast digital voice (that goes over the cable modem) and someone robs your house.. What does your alarm do? Nothing! it cant call out because the power is out. VoIP is not a technology that anyone should be relying on for LIFE SAFETY things. the standard SLA on a T1 connection is 4 hours. (and it should be since it costs $4-500/month) realistically they aren't going to fix it until they're 4 hours are up. Home/business DSL connections typically have no SLA or it isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed upon. Its been proven multiple times in the last year (san francisco fiber cut, deep sea fiber cuts, turkey stealing youtube's ip space etc) that the internet is not 190% reliable. You have to remember that you may have a competent admin but you are just as vulnerable if someone else does not have one. One other thing.. 99.99% of VoIP applications use UDP which is a connectionless protocol. meaning that the side sending it has no clue if it got there. Simply put it either gets there or doesn't and you have no idea which. This is a bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad idea. No insurance company in their right mind will touch this. I'd heard that the NFPA is also looking at banning VoIP's use for fire alarm systems. --Don
Re: [Repeater-Builder] dispatch centers run through the internet
WA3GIN wrote: Let get real...we're making up configurations and drawing conclusions that will perhaps not even be considered. Without being part of the public safety team in this fellas community all these what-ifs are senseless. Each community and its emergency management will decide what works best for them...the fella asked for some technical advice. Lets keep the tread on the technical advice and not try to pretend we can offer more than that without details about the entire system design, architecture and implementation plans... In this guys town a public safety agency might be a part-time assignment for a volunteer fireman. Remember there is 50% of this nations population that doesn't live in the 200 largest cities ;-) Telework is very important to the future of our good old USA...we better figure out how to do it and soon! You need to get real. Fire, police and EMS dispatch have stringent requirements. Several people have brought up the issues with legal and insurance requirements, and if a dept doesn't meet those, they can have their insurance dropped, if (god forbid) something is mis-handled because of this lack, the dept and everyone in it will likely get sued, and the people responsible could even wind up in jail. It has happened here in Ohio-in fact, an entire city was disbanded and the mayor and police chief put in jail by the state for the way the police dept was run. It's not quite the same, but look up New Rome, Ohio.
