Re: EOL and using older Softimages
No Comment On 08/09/14 20:58, Jason S wrote: On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. Even if you technically paid for all of them. (~15% /year definately covering any update (mostly very faint updates, particularly for SI) ) Being entirely arbitrary ( quite noticeably very self-serving) rules, preventing the use of previous versions (which can be pretty important) unless you basically commit forever, and/or preventing things like transferring the license which you "bought". Essentially making what should normally be yours, to never really be yours (with conditions and strings attached all over), like completely blurring the lines between 'leasing' 'buying' While reserving (all) the rights to basically do anything with 'your' license, such as declaring it (or all licenses) as invalid, as they did (and just as soon immediately un-did) for SI. I don't think it's unique to AD (or Adobe), but fairness often seems to be proportional to how much market 'hold' is had Personally can't wait for competition. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, "phil harbath" phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
Subsription Models per se are not the problem but the artificial restrictions Autodesk builds in. There are customer friendly ways to do the subscription and contract thing and customer unfriendly ways. I have subscripition contracts at other companys. There is no restriction for older versions. And I get a License which works forever. And I dont have to beg on knees for the permission to use older versions. And I think these companies still earn enough money to make their business run. And I support their way of business by paying the subscription because I know there is development and improvement. And they keep their promises. Remember: Autodesk always promised to keep Softimage alive. And everybody using SI was ready to believe it (with a queer feeling in the stomach). So I paid subscription. And now? But what AD does is extortion in the best sense of the word in my opinion. What do you think how big is my trust in AD? Stephan One other thing to consider is that software business models are evolving throughout the industry. Subscription models are becoming increasingly common. Things have changed a lot along the way – when I started in the industry, you could pay $60K for a paint system (Matador 64). Maya 1.0 with all its modules cost around $30K. For many people the price of entry was completely prohibitive. Subscription models allow businesses to plan their budget and keep their outgoings at a consistent level, while rental programs enable them to vary their capacity according to need. If you find a software business that doesn’t exist to make money, then you’ll probably find one that won’t exist for long. Jill
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
Ah, right. Missed the older version part. Thanks for clarifying. Sergio Muciño. Sent from my iPad. On Aug 12, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Eric Turman i.anima...@gmail.com wrote: That was not the case earlier this year when we wanted to rent a 2013 Maya...we were told that only 2014 was available to us. On Aug 11, 2014 9:37 PM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@gmail.com wrote: I guess you could also rent the Maya license for the duration of the project. Renting is a very attractive solution for that particular scenario. Sergio Muciño. Sent from my iPad. On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Martin furik...@gmail.com wrote: If rental is like subscription then you can use previous versions you have bought in the past, so for a newcomer it is as useless as buying it. So what if, hypothetically, I receive an offer to work in Maya 2012 which I don't own and the payment is good enough to invest on it. With the current system my only option is to reject the job so I don't see how Autodesk wins here. Well, another option would be to reject the job and buy Maya 2015 so maybe I can have another opportunity 3 years later. And 4 years later (2019) odds are I'll have a job offer to work in Maya 2015, which I bought but can't use unless my retailer does some special exception. The solution is simple. Don't restrict the previous versions (even if you haven't bought them), and don't give support to 3+ years old versions if that is what you are afraid of, support is not as important as being able to use the software. Autodesk won't lose money because we still need to buy the latest version and keep paying subscriptions. So Autodesk doesn't understand how the industry works, or they just don't give a shit. Martin Sent from my iPhone On 2014/08/12, at 4:07, Jill Ramsay (Contractor) jill.ram...@autodesk.com wrote: Just to be clear, rental is actually Desktop Subscription, which does include the right to use the previous version. Jill -Original Message- Yet the only version you can buy or rent is the latest one, which nobody uses and can't save in previous versions, so it is completely useless for work. winmail.dat
RE: EOL and using older Softimages
Hi there, Just to further clarify, that was a technical limitation of how the licensing was implemented, using a new model for desktop subs. We now have one version back (you can now use 2014 or 2015), and next year we will have two versions back, etc. Jill From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Turman Sent: August-12-14 1:17 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: EOL and using older Softimages That was not the case earlier this year when we wanted to rent a 2013 Maya...we were told that only 2014 was available to us. attachment: winmail.dat
RE: EOL and using older Softimages
Point of note – the ability to have previous version usage has been a benefit to active Subscription customers (only), for some time now. And (barring some exceptions) this applies across the entire Autodesk portfolio, so Softimage isn’t being single out here. Also Softimage 2012 is still available to customers with running 2015 and active Subscriptions. Previous version usage, and support, is for the current versions and 3 versions back. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of pete...@skynet.be Sent: 10 August 2014 12:01 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: EOL and using older Softimages preventing the use of previous versions unless you basically commit forever, and even then – only 3 versions back! 2012 is now officially off-limits for subscription customers. I remember a message from an AD rep here, suggesting not to upgrade a few licenses just in order to keep access to an older version - thus diluting one’s license park. it’s anti-customer behavior, directed ONLY at licensed and paying customers, devaluating their investment. what you did up to 3 years ago is being ‘obsoleted’ - for long format work that’s like saying: your previous project is off bounds. This in an industry (entertainment) thriving on sequels ! funny reading just the other day about Weta’s own new renderer in that other thread – where they mention opening shots from “old” projects such as Tintin or the first Hobbit – and re-rendering them. Where this was actually a design constraint they set themselves. And here’s AD going: hey, if we can prevent you from doing this, we will! Sure, you can try and open those scenes on a newer version, and pray nothing breaks. Oh right, if you’re on Maya, don’t forget to recompile all those plugins you don’t have the source code for. Doh. Personally can't wait for competition. Amen to that. I stuck it out on Softimage, waiting for the next gen software from AD to replace Maya/Max/XSI. Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.commailto:phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination attachment: winmail.dat
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
How ever you put it it is stil fact that model was made ONLY to push people to subs meaning steady income for AD with less need to actually improve anything in each new version. AND That model is retarded for this kind o industry as there are a lot of people with need to access old projects that for this or that reason someone need to open up, some from 5 years ago. That model is simply not something that works with what is reality as it is pointed out so many times here. On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: Point of note – the ability to have previous version usage has been a benefit to active Subscription customers (only), for some time now. And (barring some exceptions) this applies across the entire Autodesk portfolio, so Softimage isn’t being single out here. Also Softimage 2012 is still available to customers with running 2015 and active Subscriptions. Previous version usage, and support, is for the current versions and 3 versions back. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of pete...@skynet.be Sent: 10 August 2014 12:01 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: EOL and using older Softimages preventing the use of previous versions unless you basically commit forever, and even then – only 3 versions back! 2012 is now officially off-limits for subscription customers. I remember a message from an AD rep here, suggesting not to upgrade a few licenses just in order to keep access to an older version - thus diluting one’s license park. it’s anti-customer behavior, directed ONLY at licensed and paying customers, devaluating their investment. what you did up to 3 years ago is being ‘obsoleted’ - for long format work that’s like saying: your previous project is off bounds. This in an industry (entertainment) thriving on sequels ! funny reading just the other day about Weta’s own new renderer in that other thread – where they mention opening shots from “old” projects such as Tintin or the first Hobbit – and re-rendering them. Where this was actually a design constraint they set themselves. And here’s AD going: hey, if we can prevent you from doing this, we will! Sure, you can try and open those scenes on a newer version, and pray nothing breaks. Oh right, if you’re on Maya, don’t forget to recompile all those plugins you don’t have the source code for. Doh. Personally can't wait for competition. Amen to that. I stuck it out on Softimage, waiting for the next gen software from AD to replace Maya/Max/XSI. Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.com mailto:phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination
RE: EOL and using older Softimages
Yes, I guess that’s one way you could look at it. Another way might be that it might make more sense from the financial point of view, depending on your circumstances of course. Previously, I think you could get away with dropping off subs for maybe a year or two, because the upgrade policy/price (for 3 versions back) was only 50% of the price of a new seat. Some were prepared to swallow that cost. Now that has changed and all upgrades are currently 70%, it's a far bigger hit. If you always want to be current, then being on Subs is the better option. And as of Feb 1st 2015, users will be unable to upgrade old versions to the current version, so if you want the current version you have to buy a new seat. However, there’s more options for purchasing now, with the various Desktop Subscriptions options available. Like with any kind of purchasing, the trick is to do your sums. Though I can’t comment about what other vendors do, as tbh, I don’t have all the facts. As for versions that are older than 3 versions, this did come up in a previous thread some time ago. I couldn’t find the thread, but I believe I checked at the time and customers (via the Subscription Center) could request a license for an older version if you needed to access old data. http://upandready.typepad.com/up_and_ready/2014/01/previous-use-license-request-running-software-that-is-more-than-3-versions-back.html G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Mirko Jankovic Sent: 11 August 2014 16:17 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: EOL and using older Softimages How ever you put it it is stil fact that model was made ONLY to push people to subs meaning steady income for AD with less need to actually improve anything in each new version. AND That model is retarded for this kind o industry as there are a lot of people with need to access old projects that for this or that reason someone need to open up, some from 5 years ago. That model is simply not something that works with what is reality as it is pointed out so many times here. On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.commailto:graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: Point of note – the ability to have previous version usage has been a benefit to active Subscription customers (only), for some time now. And (barring some exceptions) this applies across the entire Autodesk portfolio, so Softimage isn’t being single out here. Also Softimage 2012 is still available to customers with running 2015 and active Subscriptions. Previous version usage, and support, is for the current versions and 3 versions back. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of pete...@skynet.bemailto:pete...@skynet.be Sent: 10 August 2014 12:01 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: EOL and using older Softimages preventing the use of previous versions unless you basically commit forever, and even then – only 3 versions back! 2012 is now officially off-limits for subscription customers. I remember a message from an AD rep here, suggesting not to upgrade a few licenses just in order to keep access to an older version - thus diluting one’s license park. it’s anti-customer behavior, directed ONLY at licensed and paying customers, devaluating their investment. what you did up to 3 years ago is being ‘obsoleted’ - for long format work that’s like saying: your previous project is off bounds. This in an industry (entertainment) thriving on sequels ! funny reading just the other day about Weta’s own new renderer in that other thread – where they mention opening shots from “old” projects such as Tintin or the first Hobbit – and re-rendering them. Where this was actually a design constraint they set themselves. And here’s AD going: hey, if we can prevent you from doing this, we will! Sure, you can try and open those scenes on a newer version, and pray nothing breaks. Oh right, if you’re on Maya, don’t forget to recompile all those plugins you don’t have the source code for. Doh. Personally can't wait for competition. Amen to that. I stuck it out on Softimage, waiting for the next gen software from AD to replace Maya/Max/XSI. Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.commailto:phil.harb...@jamination.commailto:phil.harb...@jamination.commailto:phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
It's just silly to expect peeps to pay subscription every year, just to be able to revisit old projects, even if they don't want to switch to Maya or Max. Of course this subscription model is what makes AD the most bucks, but come on !! Someone at AD show us there's actual people making decisions here and AD is not just some blind business model that simply follows the money and squeezes as much out of it's customers no matter what. -Ronald On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Mirko Jankovic mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com wrote: How ever you put it it is stil fact that model was made ONLY to push people to subs meaning steady income for AD with less need to actually improve anything in each new version. AND That model is retarded for this kind o industry as there are a lot of people with need to access old projects that for this or that reason someone need to open up, some from 5 years ago. That model is simply not something that works with what is reality as it is pointed out so many times here. On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: Point of note – the ability to have previous version usage has been a benefit to active Subscription customers (only), for some time now. And (barring some exceptions) this applies across the entire Autodesk portfolio, so Softimage isn’t being single out here. Also Softimage 2012 is still available to customers with running 2015 and active Subscriptions. Previous version usage, and support, is for the current versions and 3 versions back. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of pete...@skynet.be Sent: 10 August 2014 12:01 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: EOL and using older Softimages preventing the use of previous versions unless you basically commit forever, and even then – only 3 versions back! 2012 is now officially off-limits for subscription customers. I remember a message from an AD rep here, suggesting not to upgrade a few licenses just in order to keep access to an older version - thus diluting one’s license park. it’s anti-customer behavior, directed ONLY at licensed and paying customers, devaluating their investment. what you did up to 3 years ago is being ‘obsoleted’ - for long format work that’s like saying: your previous project is off bounds. This in an industry (entertainment) thriving on sequels ! funny reading just the other day about Weta’s own new renderer in that other thread – where they mention opening shots from “old” projects such as Tintin or the first Hobbit – and re-rendering them. Where this was actually a design constraint they set themselves. And here’s AD going: hey, if we can prevent you from doing this, we will! Sure, you can try and open those scenes on a newer version, and pray nothing breaks. Oh right, if you’re on Maya, don’t forget to recompile all those plugins you don’t have the source code for. Doh. Personally can't wait for competition. Amen to that. I stuck it out on Softimage, waiting for the next gen software from AD to replace Maya/Max/XSI. Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.com mailto:phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination -- Ronald van Vemden --- 3D Graphics Animation Cyberfish Laboratories | www.cyberfish.nl Toonafish | www.toonafish.nl tel. +31(0)20 5289291 fax +31(0)20 5289292 email: ron...@toonafish.nl
RE: EOL and using older Softimages
One other thing to consider is that software business models are evolving throughout the industry. Subscription models are becoming increasingly common. Things have changed a lot along the way – when I started in the industry, you could pay $60K for a paint system (Matador 64). Maya 1.0 with all its modules cost around $30K. For many people the price of entry was completely prohibitive. Subscription models allow businesses to plan their budget and keep their outgoings at a consistent level, while rental programs enable them to vary their capacity according to need. If you find a software business that doesn’t exist to make money, then you’ll probably find one that won’t exist for long. Jill attachment: winmail.dat
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
I think we all know that nobody uses the latest version for any project, or at least almost nobody (personally I've never used the latest version, only for testing). And some very long projects use 4 years old or more versions and you need to keep upgrading for the other projects that may use 2 or 3 years old versions. This is specially common in game development, right now I'm sill using 2011 in some projects. Yet the only version you can buy or rent is the latest one, which nobody uses and can't save in previous versions, so it is completely useless for work. And subscription gives you only 3 versions that are clearly not enough. So, the only way for a newcomer to enter this 3D business is to time travel, or buy a $6K+ software plus subscription per PC at least 2 or 3 years before you get into the 3D business. Now how stupid is this system ? Martin Sent from my iPhone On 2014/08/12, at 1:45, Jill Ramsay (Contractor) jill.ram...@autodesk.com wrote: One other thing to consider is that software business models are evolving throughout the industry. Subscription models are becoming increasingly common. Things have changed a lot along the way – when I started in the industry, you could pay $60K for a paint system (Matador 64). Maya 1.0 with all its modules cost around $30K. For many people the price of entry was completely prohibitive. Subscription models allow businesses to plan their budget and keep their outgoings at a consistent level, while rental programs enable them to vary their capacity according to need. If you find a software business that doesn’t exist to make money, then you’ll probably find one that won’t exist for long. Jill winmail.dat
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
It is not stupid.. for finance reasons as Graham already said. It makes perfect sense from financial point for AD. It makes really bad one for people that actually have to use it. Or it is like target only latest one..the rest.. f*k them.. same message SI users already had in their face On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Martin furik...@gmail.com wrote: I think we all know that nobody uses the latest version for any project, or at least almost nobody (personally I've never used the latest version, only for testing). And some very long projects use 4 years old or more versions and you need to keep upgrading for the other projects that may use 2 or 3 years old versions. This is specially common in game development, right now I'm sill using 2011 in some projects. Yet the only version you can buy or rent is the latest one, which nobody uses and can't save in previous versions, so it is completely useless for work. And subscription gives you only 3 versions that are clearly not enough. So, the only way for a newcomer to enter this 3D business is to time travel, or buy a $6K+ software plus subscription per PC at least 2 or 3 years before you get into the 3D business. Now how stupid is this system ? Martin Sent from my iPhone On 2014/08/12, at 1:45, Jill Ramsay (Contractor) jill.ram...@autodesk.com wrote: One other thing to consider is that software business models are evolving throughout the industry. Subscription models are becoming increasingly common. Things have changed a lot along the way – when I started in the industry, you could pay $60K for a paint system (Matador 64). Maya 1.0 with all its modules cost around $30K. For many people the price of entry was completely prohibitive. Subscription models allow businesses to plan their budget and keep their outgoings at a consistent level, while rental programs enable them to vary their capacity according to need. If you find a software business that doesn’t exist to make money, then you’ll probably find one that won’t exist for long. Jill winmail.dat
RE: EOL and using older Softimages
Just to be clear, rental is actually Desktop Subscription, which does include the right to use the previous version. Jill -Original Message- Yet the only version you can buy or rent is the latest one, which nobody uses and can't save in previous versions, so it is completely useless for work. attachment: winmail.dat
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
I was referring to making financial sense for a customer. Essentially, Subscription helps give the best of both worlds – keeping up to date and retaining previous versions, for the lowest potential cost. G From: Mirko Jankovic mirkoj.anima...@gmail.commailto:mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com Reply-To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Date: Monday, 11 August 2014 18:46 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: EOL and using older Softimages It is not stupid.. for finance reasons as Graham already said. It makes perfect sense from financial point for AD. It makes really bad one for people that actually have to use it. Or it is like target only latest one..the rest.. f*k them.. same message SI users already had in their face On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Martin furik...@gmail.commailto:furik...@gmail.com wrote: I think we all know that nobody uses the latest version for any project, or at least almost nobody (personally I've never used the latest version, only for testing). And some very long projects use 4 years old or more versions and you need to keep upgrading for the other projects that may use 2 or 3 years old versions. This is specially common in game development, right now I'm sill using 2011 in some projects. Yet the only version you can buy or rent is the latest one, which nobody uses and can't save in previous versions, so it is completely useless for work. And subscription gives you only 3 versions that are clearly not enough. So, the only way for a newcomer to enter this 3D business is to time travel, or buy a $6K+ software plus subscription per PC at least 2 or 3 years before you get into the 3D business. Now how stupid is this system ? Martin Sent from my iPhone attachment: winmail.dat
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
Rationalize and justify it however you would like, but we are effectively being strong-armed into paying for maintenance on software that will have no new releases and maybe a service pack...maybe. --- Essentially, Subscription helps give the best of both worlds – keeping up to date and retaining previous versions, for the lowest potential cost. Apart from sounding like the business equivalent of a platitude, it does not work because of the limiting factor of the past three previous versions is imposed. Commercial houses periodically need to open up scenes from 5+ years ago, tweak them and have them render out with the exact look as the original. One does not simply open it in a newer version where Mental Ray works differently. In this way alone it is clear that Autodesk's business model is incongruent with the needs of its customers. -=Eric On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: I was referring to making financial sense for a customer. Essentially, Subscription helps give the best of both worlds – keeping up to date and retaining previous versions, for the lowest potential cost. G From: Mirko Jankovic mirkoj.anima...@gmail.commailto: mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com Reply-To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Date: Monday, 11 August 2014 18:46 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: EOL and using older Softimages It is not stupid.. for finance reasons as Graham already said. It makes perfect sense from financial point for AD. It makes really bad one for people that actually have to use it. Or it is like target only latest one..the rest.. f*k them.. same message SI users already had in their face On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Martin furik...@gmail.commailto: furik...@gmail.com wrote: I think we all know that nobody uses the latest version for any project, or at least almost nobody (personally I've never used the latest version, only for testing). And some very long projects use 4 years old or more versions and you need to keep upgrading for the other projects that may use 2 or 3 years old versions. This is specially common in game development, right now I'm sill using 2011 in some projects. Yet the only version you can buy or rent is the latest one, which nobody uses and can't save in previous versions, so it is completely useless for work. And subscription gives you only 3 versions that are clearly not enough. So, the only way for a newcomer to enter this 3D business is to time travel, or buy a $6K+ software plus subscription per PC at least 2 or 3 years before you get into the 3D business. Now how stupid is this system ? Martin Sent from my iPhone -- -=T=-
RE: EOL and using older Softimages
As Graham has already mentioned in this thread, there is a mechanism for customers on Subscription to request earlier versions. Apart from sounding like the business equivalent of a platitude, it does not work because of the limiting factor of the past three previous versions is imposed. Commercial houses periodically need to open up scenes from 5+ years ago, tweak them and have them render out with the exact look as the original. One does not simply open it in a newer version where Mental Ray works differently. In this way alone it is clear that Autodesk's business model is incongruent with the needs of its customers. attachment: winmail.dat
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
RIght, I understand that, but why the arbitrary hoops in the first place? On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 4:53 PM, Jill Ramsay (Contractor) jill.ram...@autodesk.com wrote: As Graham has already mentioned in this thread, there is a mechanism for customers on Subscription to request earlier versions. Apart from sounding like the business equivalent of a platitude, it does not work because of the limiting factor of the past three previous versions is imposed. Commercial houses periodically need to open up scenes from 5+ years ago, tweak them and have them render out with the exact look as the original. One does not simply open it in a newer version where Mental Ray works differently. In this way alone it is clear that Autodesk's business model is incongruent with the needs of its customers. -- -=T=-
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
If rental is like subscription then you can use previous versions you have bought in the past, so for a newcomer it is as useless as buying it. So what if, hypothetically, I receive an offer to work in Maya 2012 which I don't own and the payment is good enough to invest on it. With the current system my only option is to reject the job so I don't see how Autodesk wins here. Well, another option would be to reject the job and buy Maya 2015 so maybe I can have another opportunity 3 years later. And 4 years later (2019) odds are I'll have a job offer to work in Maya 2015, which I bought but can't use unless my retailer does some special exception. The solution is simple. Don't restrict the previous versions (even if you haven't bought them), and don't give support to 3+ years old versions if that is what you are afraid of, support is not as important as being able to use the software. Autodesk won't lose money because we still need to buy the latest version and keep paying subscriptions. So Autodesk doesn't understand how the industry works, or they just don't give a shit. Martin Sent from my iPhone On 2014/08/12, at 4:07, Jill Ramsay (Contractor) jill.ram...@autodesk.com wrote: Just to be clear, rental is actually Desktop Subscription, which does include the right to use the previous version. Jill -Original Message- Yet the only version you can buy or rent is the latest one, which nobody uses and can't save in previous versions, so it is completely useless for work. winmail.dat
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
That was not the case earlier this year when we wanted to rent a 2013 Maya...we were told that only 2014 was available to us. On Aug 11, 2014 9:37 PM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@gmail.com wrote: I guess you could also rent the Maya license for the duration of the project. Renting is a very attractive solution for that particular scenario. Sergio Muciño. Sent from my iPad. On Aug 11, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Martin furik...@gmail.com wrote: If rental is like subscription then you can use previous versions you have bought in the past, so for a newcomer it is as useless as buying it. So what if, hypothetically, I receive an offer to work in Maya 2012 which I don't own and the payment is good enough to invest on it. With the current system my only option is to reject the job so I don't see how Autodesk wins here. Well, another option would be to reject the job and buy Maya 2015 so maybe I can have another opportunity 3 years later. And 4 years later (2019) odds are I'll have a job offer to work in Maya 2015, which I bought but can't use unless my retailer does some special exception. The solution is simple. Don't restrict the previous versions (even if you haven't bought them), and don't give support to 3+ years old versions if that is what you are afraid of, support is not as important as being able to use the software. Autodesk won't lose money because we still need to buy the latest version and keep paying subscriptions. So Autodesk doesn't understand how the industry works, or they just don't give a shit. Martin Sent from my iPhone On 2014/08/12, at 4:07, Jill Ramsay (Contractor) jill.ram...@autodesk.com wrote: Just to be clear, rental is actually Desktop Subscription, which does include the right to use the previous version. Jill -Original Message- Yet the only version you can buy or rent is the latest one, which nobody uses and can't save in previous versions, so it is completely useless for work. winmail.dat
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
preventing the use of previous versions unless you basically commit forever, and even then – only 3 versions back! 2012 is now officially off-limits for subscription customers. I remember a message from an AD rep here, suggesting not to upgrade a few licenses just in order to keep access to an older version - thus diluting one’s license park. it’s anti-customer behavior, directed ONLY at licensed and paying customers, devaluating their investment. what you did up to 3 years ago is being ‘obsoleted’ - for long format work that’s like saying: your previous project is off bounds. This in an industry (entertainment) thriving on sequels ! funny reading just the other day about Weta’s own new renderer in that other thread – where they mention opening shots from “old” projects such as Tintin or the first Hobbit – and re-rendering them. Where this was actually a design constraint they set themselves. And here’s AD going: hey, if we can prevent you from doing this, we will! Sure, you can try and open those scenes on a newer version, and pray nothing breaks. Oh right, if you’re on Maya, don’t forget to recompile all those plugins you don’t have the source code for. Doh. Personally can't wait for competition. Amen to that. I stuck it out on Softimage, waiting for the next gen software from AD to replace Maya/Max/XSI. Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
Quote : /Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD./ +1 I wonder how many of us will think that way though. Le 10/08/2014 13:01, pete...@skynet.be a écrit : preventing the use of previous versions unless you basically commit forever, and even then – only 3 versions back! 2012 is now officially off-limits for subscription customers. I remember a message from an AD rep here, suggesting not to upgrade a few licenses just in order to keep access to an older version - thus diluting one’s license park. it’s anti-customer behavior, directed ONLY at licensed and paying customers, devaluating their investment. what you did up to 3 years ago is being ‘obsoleted’ - for long format work that’s like saying: your previous project is off bounds. This in an industry (entertainment) thriving on sequels ! funny reading just the other day about Weta’s own new renderer in that other thread – where they mention opening shots from “old” projects such as Tintin or the first Hobbit – and re-rendering them. Where this was actually a design constraint they set themselves. And here’s AD going: hey, if we can prevent you from doing this, we will! Sure, you can try and open those scenes on a newer version, and pray nothing breaks. Oh right, if you’re on Maya, don’t forget to recompile all those plugins you don’t have the source code for. Doh. Personally can't wait for competition. Amen to that. I stuck it out on Softimage, waiting for the next gen software from AD to replace Maya/Max/XSI. Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.com mailto:phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
Looking at all the familiar names popping up in 3D forums that aren't AD related, I would say a lot ;-) It seems a lot of ppl are testing the waters on other 3D apps, but a lot of that isn't Max or Maya it seems. Rob \/-\/\/ On 10-8-2014 13:19, olivier jeannel wrote: Quote : /Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD./ +1 I wonder how many of us will think that way though. Le 10/08/2014 13:01, pete...@skynet.be a écrit : preventing the use of previous versions unless you basically commit forever, and even then – only 3 versions back! 2012 is now officially off-limits for subscription customers. I remember a message from an AD rep here, suggesting not to upgrade a few licenses just in order to keep access to an older version - thus diluting one’s license park. it’s anti-customer behavior, directed ONLY at licensed and paying customers, devaluating their investment. what you did up to 3 years ago is being ‘obsoleted’ - for long format work that’s like saying: your previous project is off bounds. This in an industry (entertainment) thriving on sequels ! funny reading just the other day about Weta’s own new renderer in that other thread – where they mention opening shots from “old” projects such as Tintin or the first Hobbit – and re-rendering them. Where this was actually a design constraint they set themselves. And here’s AD going: hey, if we can prevent you from doing this, we will! Sure, you can try and open those scenes on a newer version, and pray nothing breaks. Oh right, if you’re on Maya, don’t forget to recompile all those plugins you don’t have the source code for. Doh. Personally can't wait for competition. Amen to that. I stuck it out on Softimage, waiting for the next gen software from AD to replace Maya/Max/XSI. Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.com mailto:phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8011 - Release Date: 08/10/14
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
In the last time I had to open old stuff created in 5.11 ten (or was it more?) years ago. And there are definitely things not working in the actual versions (i.e. some 32Bit Plugins). I can´t remember a time in my life when I was bugged / irritated over such a long time about the same stuff (SI EOL). ... and for my needs there is still no replacement for Softimage in sight. Greetings at all the poor working on Sunday... Stephan Looking at all the familiar names popping up in 3D forums that aren't AD related, I would say a lot ;-) It seems a lot of ppl are testing the waters on other 3D apps, but a lot of that isn't Max or Maya it seems. Rob \/-\/\/ On 10-8-2014 13:19, olivier jeannel wrote: Quote : /Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD./ +1 I wonder how many of us will think that way though. Le 10/08/2014 13:01, pete...@skynet.be a écrit : preventing the use of previous versions unless you basically commit forever, and even then – only 3 versions back! 2012 is now officially off-limits for subscription customers. I remember a message from an AD rep here, suggesting not to upgrade a few licenses just in order to keep access to an older version - thus diluting one’s license park. it’s anti-customer behavior, directed ONLY at licensed and paying customers, devaluating their investment. what you did up to 3 years ago is being ‘obsoleted’ - for long format work that’s like saying: your previous project is off bounds. This in an industry (entertainment) thriving on sequels ! funny reading just the other day about Weta’s own new renderer in that other thread – where they mention opening shots from “old” projects such as Tintin or the first Hobbit – and re-rendering them. Where this was actually a design constraint they set themselves. And here’s AD going: hey, if we can prevent you from doing this, we will! Sure, you can try and open those scenes on a newer version, and pray nothing breaks. Oh right, if you’re on Maya, don’t forget to recompile all those plugins you don’t have the source code for. Doh. Personally can't wait for competition. Amen to that. I stuck it out on Softimage, waiting for the next gen software from AD to replace Maya/Max/XSI. Definitely not doing that anymore - at this point my ONLY criterium for a replacement is that it isn’t AD. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.com mailto:phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8011 - Release Date: 08/10/14
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
Thank you for clarification Luc-Eric. It is apparent that the policies Autodesk has enacted are completely pernicious and unconscionable. Such an egregious and unilaterally oppressive action is only going to serve as a suppurating sore, sowing the seeds of mistrust of Autodesk within the small industry that is 3D animation visual FX. I can understand the clinical, unsympathetic responses from representatives of Autodesk. From what I can tell, outspoken Autodesk employees who actually cared about Softimage and its community over the years have been summarily deposed. To sum up: what Autodesk did to Softimage was bad enough, but the manner and lengths that they have gone to to expunge Softimage's utility border on obsessive. Its like holding a corpse for ransom. -=Eric T. On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau luceri...@gmail.com wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination -- -=T=-
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
+1 Am 09.08.2014 22:00, schrieb Eric Turman: Thank you for clarification Luc-Eric. It is apparent that the policies Autodesk has enacted are completely pernicious and unconscionable. Such an egregious and unilaterally oppressive action is only going to serve as a suppurating sore, sowing the seeds of mistrust of Autodesk within the small industry that is 3D animation visual FX. I can understand the clinical, unsympathetic responses from representatives of Autodesk. From what I can tell, outspoken Autodesk employees who actually cared about Softimage and its community over the years have been summarily deposed. To sum up: what Autodesk did to Softimage was bad enough, but the manner and lengths that they have gone to to expunge Softimage's utility border on obsessive. Its like holding a corpse for ransom. -=Eric T.
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
If Autodesk management think this is a fair way to treat your clients I would suggest to think again, nothing positive will come out of it. Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com On 9 Aug 2014, at 21:00, Eric Turman i.anima...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you for clarification Luc-Eric. It is apparent that the policies Autodesk has enacted are completely pernicious and unconscionable. Such an egregious and unilaterally oppressive action is only going to serve as a suppurating sore, sowing the seeds of mistrust of Autodesk within the small industry that is 3D animation visual FX. I can understand the clinical, unsympathetic responses from representatives of Autodesk. From what I can tell, outspoken Autodesk employees who actually cared about Softimage and its community over the years have been summarily deposed. To sum up: what Autodesk did to Softimage was bad enough, but the manner and lengths that they have gone to to expunge Softimage's utility border on obsessive. Its like holding a corpse for ransom. -=Eric T. On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau luceri...@gmail.com wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, phil harbath phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination -- -=T=-
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
+1 On 09/08/14 22:26, Jordi Bares wrote: If Autodesk management think this is a fair way to treat your clients I would suggest to think again, nothing positive will come out of it. Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com On 9 Aug 2014, at 21:00, Eric Turman i.anima...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you for clarification Luc-Eric. It is apparent that the policies Autodesk has enacted are completely pernicious and unconscionable. Such an egregious and unilaterally oppressive action is only going to serve as a suppurating sore, sowing the seeds of mistrust of Autodesk within the small industry that is 3D animation visual FX. I can understand the clinical, unsympathetic responses from representatives of Autodesk. From what I can tell, outspoken Autodesk employees who actually cared about Softimage and its community over the years have been summarily deposed. To sum up: what Autodesk did to Softimage was bad enough, but the manner and lengths that they have gone to to expunge Softimage's utility border on obsessive. Its like holding a corpse for ransom. -=Eric T.
Re: EOL and using older Softimages
On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. Even if you technically paid for all of them. (~15% /year definately covering any update (mostly very faint updates, particularly for SI) ) Being entirely arbitrary ( quite noticeably very self-serving) rules, preventing the use of previous versions (which can be pretty important) unless you basically commit forever, and/or preventing things like transferring the license which you "bought". Essentially making what should normally be yours, to never really be yours (with conditions and strings attached all over), like completely blurring the lines between 'leasing' 'buying' While reserving (all) the rights to basically do anything with 'your' license, such as declaring it (or all licenses) as invalid, as they did (and just as soon immediately un-did) for SI. I don't think it's unique to AD (or Adobe), but fairness often seems to be proportional to how much market 'hold' is had Personally can't wait for competition. On 08/09/14 8:22, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote: Yes you lose the right to run three versions back when the subscription lapses. You can only run the last version you installed. On Aug 8, 2014 2:09 PM, "phil harbath" phil.harb...@jamination.com wrote: What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination
EOL and using older Softimages
What was the final verdict on using older versions of Softimage, I saw on the EOL page you could use up to 3 versions back. Does that require the user to be on active subscription. My case is I am on 2015 but my subscription just lapsed. Phil Harbath jamination
