Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Ted Husted]

Yansheng Lin wrote:
> It doesn't sound right to me.  Java still support deprecated methods
> from years ago.  Besides, when we look at the struts tag lib API
> reference, there is no warning about these tags being deprecated.
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
IMHO, it would be a disservice to the Struts community for Struts to keep
on innovating and maintaining its (now proprietary to Struts) expression
language, when the rest of the world is going to follow a different
standard.


=:0) IMHO, Struts is the Struts community. =:0)

Realistically, if someone came along who wanted to work the original 
Struts tags, and started submitting a bunch of useful patches, in all 
liklihood that someone would end up being a Committer. The original tags 
would live and grow so long as there was someone around who wanted to 
nurture them.

But, as it stands, the individuals who have volunteered their own time 
and energy in building and improving Struts are tending to look to the 
new technologies. Craig, along with some others, have made a commitment 
to support the conventional tags with bugfixes through 1.x. But that's a 
personal commitment, made of their own free will.

It's important for everyone to remember that this is a volunteer 
project. We do not sit in a room somewhere and allocate resources. 
Everyone's time is their own, and we don't try to tell people what to do 
with the time they freely volunteer to the Foundation.

The individuals who now commit the most time to Struts [David Graham 
springs to mind =:0)] are using technologies like JSTL in their own 
projects. (You know, the ones that put bread on the table.) Accordingly, 
these technologies is where they will put their time and energy.

Likewise, Craig spends "a bit" [=;0)] of his time working with JSF. So, 
naturally, he will be most interested in continuing to bridge the gap 
between Struts and JSF.

Personally, if you are using tags, I recommend that you follow their 
example and (leisurely) steer your teams toward the JSTL/JSF horizon. 
There's no particular rush, though. JSTL is still relatively new, and 
JSF hasn't even been born yet. =:0)

But, whether or not the original Struts tags are simply maintained or 
enhanced is not up to any one of us. It's a matter of whether there are 
individuals in the Struts community who are ready, willing, and able to 
step up to the plate and make it so.

So far, we've been very fortunate in that people like David Karr and 
Craig McClanahan have gone to the trouble of providing clear paths to 
JSTL and JSF. So, those who want to move along, can do so now.

But, if others want to stay behind, it's up to them to do their own 
work. It's not fair, reasonable, or even wise to ask people to volunteer 
their own free time to improve technologies they do not themselves use.

-Ted.



--
Ted Husted,
  Junit in Action  - ,
  Struts in Action - ,
  JSP Site Design  - .


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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Yansheng Lin wrote:

> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:24:30 -0600
> From: Yansheng Lin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
>
> So I guess the following is going to be true in struts 2.0?
>
> It doesn't sound right to me.  Java still support deprecated methods
> from years ago.  Besides, when we look at the struts tag lib API
> reference, there is no warning about these tags being deprecated.
>

But nobody is doing any bugfixes or performance improvements on those
methods -- they only continue to exist so that old programs depending on
them will continue to run.

>
> In struts.tld header:
>
> WARNING:  ALL OF THE TAGS IN THIS LIBRARY ARE DEPRECATED, AND
> ARE MAINTAINED ONLY FOR BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY.  THEY WILL BE
> REMOVED IN A FUTURE VERSION OF STRUTS.
>

In the very early days of Struts (version 0.5), all of the tags were in a
single tag library (struts.tld).  It became clear that this was not going
to be scalable in the long run, so by release 1.0 the tags were split into
multiple tag libraries (struts-bean, struts-html, struts-logic, and so
on).  You should absolutely *not* use struts.tld as your tag library;
instead, you should use the individual tag libraries.

The individual tag libraries themselves are NOT deprecated, and the tags
in them will continue to exist and be maintained and supported through at
least any 1.x version train (we haven't talked enough about what 2.x is to
say what might be there or might not be there).  However, I'm NOT
interested in doing any substantial innovations on them that will remain
proprietary to Struts, when standard versions of these tags that are
substantially more powerful, capable of being optimized by the container
(Resin already does this for JSTL tags, Tomcat has most of its internal
APIs set up to make this feature possible).

The tag libraries are not deprecated, but they are becoming legacy.  Big
difference.

Craig


>
> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: July 11, 2003 3:38 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> IMHO, it would be a disservice to the Struts community for Struts to keep
> on innovating and maintaining its (now proprietary to Struts) expression
> language, when the rest of the world is going to follow a different
> standard.
>
> Craig (who isn't using SQL tags, or planning to, but is enjoying the power
> of all the rest of them)
>
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Yansheng Lin]

So I guess the following is going to be true in struts 2.0?  

It doesn't sound right to me.  Java still support deprecated methods from years
ago.  Besides, when we look at the struts tag lib API reference, there is no
warning about these tags being deprecated.  


In struts.tld header:

WARNING:  ALL OF THE TAGS IN THIS LIBRARY ARE DEPRECATED, AND
ARE MAINTAINED ONLY FOR BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY.  THEY WILL BE
REMOVED IN A FUTURE VERSION OF STRUTS.


-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: July 11, 2003 3:38 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

IMHO, it would be a disservice to the Struts community for Struts to keep
on innovating and maintaining its (now proprietary to Struts) expression
language, when the rest of the world is going to follow a different
standard.

Craig (who isn't using SQL tags, or planning to, but is enjoying the power
of all the rest of them)

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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Davidson, Glenn wrote:

> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:59:31 -0400
> From: "Davidson, Glenn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> Thanks guys. The bottom line is that we do have the ability not to use the
> features that we find objectionable. I am just surprised that the very fine
> folks who conceived and built the struts framework would (appear to) favor
> such features. Perhaps they could build one struts framework for people who
> know what they are doing and a second framework for people who want to mix
> presentation and logic. I could make an argument for separate frameworks
> that would be equal to the arguments I saw for these "features". Frankly,
> given the arguments I have seen to support the SQL tags it wouldn't be very
> difficult.
>

If you don't like the SQL tags, don't use em.  (Same basic argument as if
you don't like scriptlets, don't use em).  But using dislike of the SQL
tags as an excuse to give up on the power and benefits of all the rest of
JSTL is really pretty ridiculous.  (Likewise ridiculous is using dislike
of scriptlets as your sole reason not to use JSP, but I digress :-).

The JSTL tags that overlap in functionality with Struts tags (mostly in
the bean and logic libraries) are substantially more powerful, and allow
for much more concise expressions of things that would otherwise require
Java runtime expressions.  Further, in JSP 2.0 you'll be able to use that
exact same expression language everywhere in your page (even template
text), so you might as well get used to it now.

If you want to use EL expressions today in Struts tags, you can do that
too, thanks to the struts-el library.

IMHO, it would be a disservice to the Struts community for Struts to keep
on innovating and maintaining its (now proprietary to Struts) expression
language, when the rest of the world is going to follow a different
standard.

Craig (who isn't using SQL tags, or planning to, but is enjoying the power
of all the rest of them)

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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Graham]

--- "Davidson, Glenn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David,
> Thanks David, I do stand corrected. I must have misread some of the
> earlier
> emails, so the offensive tags are part of the JSTL. Since it the JSTL is
> coming from Sun it is not surprising that is includes some garbage. I
> still
> saw some fine folks arguing in favor of these features. 

There's no point in complaining about JSTL sql tags on the Struts users
mailing list.  We can't remove them from the taglib but we can choose to
not use them.  The JSTL's sql tags have their place in very small apps and
proof-of-concept apps.  If they bring more people to the Java platform, I
consider them a worthwhile addition.  However, I choose not to use them as
they lead to unmaintainable apps.

David

> What about JSF,
> will
> there be support in JSF for embedding business or data logic into the
> presentation layer? If so why?
> 
> Glenn
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:07 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> 
> 
> --- "Davidson, Glenn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I recently saw the term "Dog Food" and found it amusing. I might not
> be
> > using it correctly in this context ( I just might be eating some dog
> > food
> > with my prior email :-) ) . What I was trying to get across is that
> just
> > because there are other languages/technologies that allow programmers
> to
> > build applications in a poor manner, that in itself should not be used
> > to
> > justify the addition of features that would allow Struts based
> > applications
> > to be built in the same manner. I chose struts as the framework for
> our
> > web
> > development specifically because it didn't allow the type of mixing of
> > logic
> > and presentation that was mentioned earlier in this thread. If I
> wanted
> > to
> > mix logic and presentation I would use PHP, it makes it very easy to
> do
> > that. If struts is going to be MVC, then let's keep it MVC. 
> 
> This discussion has had little to do with Struts and much to do with the
> JSTL.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:30 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> > 
> > 
> > I'm familiar with the tech idiom "dog-food" .. but I have no idea what
> 
> > it is you're talking about please can you explain what you understand 
> > by dog-food coding?
> > 
> > If your saying what I think you are are you sure you're not choking on
> 
> > some?
> > 
> > 
> > On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:
> > 
> > > Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a
> > joke.
> > > There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this
> 
> > > should
> > > not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I 
> > > understand
> > > that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has 
> > > shown
> > > that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog 
> > > Food"
> > > features you become the technology providers that you currently make
> 
> > > fun of.
> > > I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food" 
> > > features.
> > > Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been
> 
> > > solid.
> > > No "Dog Food" please!
> > >
> > > Glenn
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
> > > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > > Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> > >
> > >
> > > I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags
> 
> > > to get
> > > access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting
> yourself...this
> > 
> > > is
> > > exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming
> practice!
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM

RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Davidson, Glenn]

Thanks!

I am chowing down now :-) !

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: Erik Price [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:12 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags




Davidson, Glenn wrote:

> As an aside, "Dog Food" has a specific tech meaning? If it is not to much
> trouble what exactly does it mean in "techie"


http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/D/dogfood.html


Erik


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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Davidson, Glenn]

David,
Thanks David, I do stand corrected. I must have misread some of the earlier
emails, so the offensive tags are part of the JSTL. Since it the JSTL is
coming from Sun it is not surprising that is includes some garbage. I still
saw some fine folks arguing in favor of these features. What about JSF, will
there be support in JSF for embedding business or data logic into the
presentation layer? If so why?

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:07 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


--- "Davidson, Glenn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I recently saw the term "Dog Food" and found it amusing. I might not be
> using it correctly in this context ( I just might be eating some dog
> food
> with my prior email :-) ) . What I was trying to get across is that just
> because there are other languages/technologies that allow programmers to
> build applications in a poor manner, that in itself should not be used
> to
> justify the addition of features that would allow Struts based
> applications
> to be built in the same manner. I chose struts as the framework for our
> web
> development specifically because it didn't allow the type of mixing of
> logic
> and presentation that was mentioned earlier in this thread. If I wanted
> to
> mix logic and presentation I would use PHP, it makes it very easy to do
> that. If struts is going to be MVC, then let's keep it MVC. 

This discussion has had little to do with Struts and much to do with the
JSTL.

David


> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:30 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> 
> 
> I'm familiar with the tech idiom "dog-food" .. but I have no idea what 
> it is you're talking about please can you explain what you understand 
> by dog-food coding?
> 
> If your saying what I think you are are you sure you're not choking on 
> some?
> 
> 
> On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:
> 
> > Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a
> joke.
> > There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this 
> > should
> > not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I 
> > understand
> > that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has 
> > shown
> > that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog 
> > Food"
> > features you become the technology providers that you currently make 
> > fun of.
> > I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food" 
> > features.
> > Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been 
> > solid.
> > No "Dog Food" please!
> >
> > Glenn
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >
> >
> > I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags 
> > to get
> > access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting yourself...this
> 
> > is
> > exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming practice!
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
> >> From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >>
> >> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced
> >>> JavaServer Pages?"
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >
> > David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's on
> 
> > the
> > JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.
> >
> > I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating 
> > ones) in
> > JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch
> of
> > developers in th

Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Erik Price]

Davidson, Glenn wrote:

As an aside, "Dog Food" has a specific tech meaning? If it is not to much
trouble what exactly does it mean in "techie"


http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/D/dogfood.html

Erik

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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Graham]

--- "Davidson, Glenn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I recently saw the term "Dog Food" and found it amusing. I might not be
> using it correctly in this context ( I just might be eating some dog
> food
> with my prior email :-) ) . What I was trying to get across is that just
> because there are other languages/technologies that allow programmers to
> build applications in a poor manner, that in itself should not be used
> to
> justify the addition of features that would allow Struts based
> applications
> to be built in the same manner. I chose struts as the framework for our
> web
> development specifically because it didn't allow the type of mixing of
> logic
> and presentation that was mentioned earlier in this thread. If I wanted
> to
> mix logic and presentation I would use PHP, it makes it very easy to do
> that. If struts is going to be MVC, then let's keep it MVC. 

This discussion has had little to do with Struts and much to do with the
JSTL.

David


> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:30 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> 
> 
> I'm familiar with the tech idiom "dog-food" .. but I have no idea what 
> it is you're talking about please can you explain what you understand 
> by dog-food coding?
> 
> If your saying what I think you are are you sure you're not choking on 
> some?
> 
> 
> On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:
> 
> > Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a
> joke.
> > There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this 
> > should
> > not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I 
> > understand
> > that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has 
> > shown
> > that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog 
> > Food"
> > features you become the technology providers that you currently make 
> > fun of.
> > I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food" 
> > features.
> > Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been 
> > solid.
> > No "Dog Food" please!
> >
> > Glenn
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >
> >
> > I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags 
> > to get
> > access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting yourself...this
> 
> > is
> > exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming practice!
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
> >> From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >>
> >> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced
> >>> JavaServer Pages?"
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >
> > David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's on
> 
> > the
> > JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.
> >
> > I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating 
> > ones) in
> > JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch
> of
> > developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development (VB,
> 
> > PHP,
> > PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups to
> > ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not like
> 
> > what
> > people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group 
> > creating
> > the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.
> >
> > Beyond that, it *is* feasible to separate business logic and 
> > presentation
> > logic into separate JSP pages,

RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Davidson, Glenn]

Thanks guys. The bottom line is that we do have the ability not to use the
features that we find objectionable. I am just surprised that the very fine
folks who conceived and built the struts framework would (appear to) favor
such features. Perhaps they could build one struts framework for people who
know what they are doing and a second framework for people who want to mix
presentation and logic. I could make an argument for separate frameworks
that would be equal to the arguments I saw for these "features". Frankly,
given the arguments I have seen to support the SQL tags it wouldn't be very
difficult. 

As an aside, "Dog Food" has a specific tech meaning? If it is not to much
trouble what exactly does it mean in "techie"

Thanks

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: Hookom, Jacob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 3:39 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


Mark,

As Glenn pointed out that there are different scales of applications, just
like PHP hacking might be more suited, JSTL might be more suited.  With some
custom persistence tags to handle your business logic, you could easily
write a whole application with JSTL.  Though, I wouldn't recommend it in
most cases.

I could also point out that putting ANY business logic in a PageController
(like struts) is stupid.

Jacob Hookom
Senior Analyst/Programmer
McKesson Medical-Surgical
Golden Valley, Minnesota
http://www.mckesson.com

-Original Message-
From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 2:40 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

Couldn't agree with you more... an' sorry for the snide line, i think
i've got a little irritated over yesterdays efforts on this thread..

I just cant see why the JSTL standard seems to be a product of
pandering to PHP hackers (There are some nicely written PHP apps)..
Worse still folks who are publishing books on the subject are
encouraging this sort of thing.. I think that rancid festering camel's
jism would perhaps be a more fitting term than dog-food, for the sort
of thing you were describing :o)

On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 08:11 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:

> I recently saw the term "Dog Food" and found it amusing. I might not be
> using it correctly in this context ( I just might be eating some dog
> food
> with my prior email :-) ) . What I was trying to get across is that
> just
> because there are other languages/technologies that allow programmers
> to
> build applications in a poor manner, that in itself should not be used
> to
> justify the addition of features that would allow Struts based
> applications
> to be built in the same manner. I chose struts as the framework for
> our web
> development specifically because it didn't allow the type of mixing of
> logic
> and presentation that was mentioned earlier in this thread. If I
> wanted to
> mix logic and presentation I would use PHP, it makes it very easy to do
> that. If struts is going to be MVC, then let's keep it MVC.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:30 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
>
> I'm familiar with the tech idiom "dog-food" .. but I have no idea what
> it is you're talking about please can you explain what you understand
> by dog-food coding?
>
> If your saying what I think you are are you sure you're not choking on
> some?
>
>
> On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:
>
>> Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a
>> joke.
>> There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this
>> should
>> not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I
>> understand
>> that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has
>> shown
>> that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog
>> Food"
>> features you become the technology providers that you currently make
>> fun of.
>> I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food"
>> features.
>> Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been
>> solid.
>> No "Dog Food" please!
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>
>>
>> I think this approach is bullshit.

RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Hookom, Jacob]

Mark,

As Glenn pointed out that there are different scales of applications, just
like PHP hacking might be more suited, JSTL might be more suited.  With some
custom persistence tags to handle your business logic, you could easily
write a whole application with JSTL.  Though, I wouldn't recommend it in
most cases.

I could also point out that putting ANY business logic in a PageController
(like struts) is stupid.

Jacob Hookom
Senior Analyst/Programmer
McKesson Medical-Surgical
Golden Valley, Minnesota
http://www.mckesson.com

-Original Message-
From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 2:40 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

Couldn't agree with you more... an' sorry for the snide line, i think
i've got a little irritated over yesterdays efforts on this thread..

I just cant see why the JSTL standard seems to be a product of
pandering to PHP hackers (There are some nicely written PHP apps)..
Worse still folks who are publishing books on the subject are
encouraging this sort of thing.. I think that rancid festering camel's
jism would perhaps be a more fitting term than dog-food, for the sort
of thing you were describing :o)

On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 08:11 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:

> I recently saw the term "Dog Food" and found it amusing. I might not be
> using it correctly in this context ( I just might be eating some dog
> food
> with my prior email :-) ) . What I was trying to get across is that
> just
> because there are other languages/technologies that allow programmers
> to
> build applications in a poor manner, that in itself should not be used
> to
> justify the addition of features that would allow Struts based
> applications
> to be built in the same manner. I chose struts as the framework for
> our web
> development specifically because it didn't allow the type of mixing of
> logic
> and presentation that was mentioned earlier in this thread. If I
> wanted to
> mix logic and presentation I would use PHP, it makes it very easy to do
> that. If struts is going to be MVC, then let's keep it MVC.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:30 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
>
> I'm familiar with the tech idiom "dog-food" .. but I have no idea what
> it is you're talking about please can you explain what you understand
> by dog-food coding?
>
> If your saying what I think you are are you sure you're not choking on
> some?
>
>
> On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:
>
>> Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a
>> joke.
>> There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this
>> should
>> not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I
>> understand
>> that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has
>> shown
>> that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog
>> Food"
>> features you become the technology providers that you currently make
>> fun of.
>> I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food"
>> features.
>> Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been
>> solid.
>> No "Dog Food" please!
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>
>>
>> I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags
>> to get
>> access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting yourself...this
>> is
>> exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming practice!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM
>>
>> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
>>> From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>>
>>> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, &

Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Lowe]

Couldn't agree with you more... an' sorry for the snide line, i think 
i've got a little irritated over yesterdays efforts on this thread..

I just cant see why the JSTL standard seems to be a product of 
pandering to PHP hackers (There are some nicely written PHP apps).. 
Worse still folks who are publishing books on the subject are 
encouraging this sort of thing.. I think that rancid festering camel's 
jism would perhaps be a more fitting term than dog-food, for the sort 
of thing you were describing :o)

On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 08:11 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:

I recently saw the term "Dog Food" and found it amusing. I might not be
using it correctly in this context ( I just might be eating some dog 
food
with my prior email :-) ) . What I was trying to get across is that 
just
because there are other languages/technologies that allow programmers 
to
build applications in a poor manner, that in itself should not be used 
to
justify the addition of features that would allow Struts based 
applications
to be built in the same manner. I chose struts as the framework for 
our web
development specifically because it didn't allow the type of mixing of 
logic
and presentation that was mentioned earlier in this thread. If I 
wanted to
mix logic and presentation I would use PHP, it makes it very easy to do
that. If struts is going to be MVC, then let's keep it MVC.



-Original Message-
From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:30 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I'm familiar with the tech idiom "dog-food" .. but I have no idea what
it is you're talking about please can you explain what you understand
by dog-food coding?
If your saying what I think you are are you sure you're not choking on
some?
On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:

Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a 
joke.
There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this
should
not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I
understand
that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has
shown
that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog
Food"
features you become the technology providers that you currently make
fun of.
I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food"
features.
Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been
solid.
No "Dog Food" please!

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags
to get
access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting yourself...this
is
exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming practice!
Mark

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
wrote:
Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced
JavaServer Pages?"
Yes.
David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's on
the
JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.
I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating
ones) in
JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch 
of
developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development (VB,
PHP,
PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups to
ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not like
what
people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group
creating
the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.

Beyond that, it *is* feasible to separate business logic and
presentation
logic into separate JSP pages, and enjoy the fact that the page is
automatically recompiled without needing the app to be restarted.
Couple
that with the fact that Struts lets you say that a particular 
really does a RequestDispatcher.include(), and you've suddenly got the
ability to program Actions as JSP pages ... sort of a mind twisting
approach, but it seems like it would be feasible in scenarios where 
the
business logic is simple enough to be scripted in JSP tags that are
only
used for their side effects, not for their output (which would get
thrown
away anyway when Struts ultimately forwards to the presentation JSP).
In
such a 

RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Davidson, Glenn]

I recently saw the term "Dog Food" and found it amusing. I might not be
using it correctly in this context ( I just might be eating some dog food
with my prior email :-) ) . What I was trying to get across is that just
because there are other languages/technologies that allow programmers to
build applications in a poor manner, that in itself should not be used to
justify the addition of features that would allow Struts based applications
to be built in the same manner. I chose struts as the framework for our web
development specifically because it didn't allow the type of mixing of logic
and presentation that was mentioned earlier in this thread. If I wanted to
mix logic and presentation I would use PHP, it makes it very easy to do
that. If struts is going to be MVC, then let's keep it MVC. 



-Original Message-
From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:30 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I'm familiar with the tech idiom "dog-food" .. but I have no idea what 
it is you're talking about please can you explain what you understand 
by dog-food coding?

If your saying what I think you are are you sure you're not choking on 
some?


On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:

> Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a joke.
> There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this 
> should
> not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I 
> understand
> that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has 
> shown
> that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog 
> Food"
> features you become the technology providers that you currently make 
> fun of.
> I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food" 
> features.
> Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been 
> solid.
> No "Dog Food" please!
>
> Glenn
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
>
> I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags 
> to get
> access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting yourself...this 
> is
> exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming practice!
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM
>
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
>> From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>
>> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced
>>> JavaServer Pages?"
>>
>> Yes.
>
> David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's on 
> the
> JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.
>
> I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating 
> ones) in
> JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch of
> developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development (VB, 
> PHP,
> PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups to
> ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not like 
> what
> people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group 
> creating
> the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.
>
> Beyond that, it *is* feasible to separate business logic and 
> presentation
> logic into separate JSP pages, and enjoy the fact that the page is
> automatically recompiled without needing the app to be restarted.  
> Couple
> that with the fact that Struts lets you say that a particular 
> really does a RequestDispatcher.include(), and you've suddenly got the
> ability to program Actions as JSP pages ... sort of a mind twisting
> approach, but it seems like it would be feasible in scenarios where the
> business logic is simple enough to be scripted in JSP tags that are 
> only
> used for their side effects, not for their output (which would get 
> thrown
> away anyway when Struts ultimately forwards to the presentation JSP).  
> In
> such a scenario, having SQL access tags would make a lot of sense.
>
>>
>>
>> da

Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Lowe]

I'm familiar with the tech idiom "dog-food" .. but I have no idea what 
it is you're talking about please can you explain what you understand 
by dog-food coding?

If your saying what I think you are are you sure you're not choking on 
some?

On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Davidson, Glenn wrote:

Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a joke.
There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this 
should
not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I 
understand
that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has 
shown
that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog 
Food"
features you become the technology providers that you currently make 
fun of.
I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food" 
features.
Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been 
solid.
No "Dog Food" please!

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags 
to get
access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting yourself...this 
is
exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming practice!

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
wrote:
Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced
JavaServer Pages?"
Yes.
David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's on 
the
JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.

I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating 
ones) in
JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch of
developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development (VB, 
PHP,
PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups to
ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not like 
what
people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group 
creating
the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.

Beyond that, it *is* feasible to separate business logic and 
presentation
logic into separate JSP pages, and enjoy the fact that the page is
automatically recompiled without needing the app to be restarted.  
Couple
that with the fact that Struts lets you say that a particular 
really does a RequestDispatcher.include(), and you've suddenly got the
ability to program Actions as JSP pages ... sort of a mind twisting
approach, but it seems like it would be feasible in scenarios where the
business logic is simple enough to be scripted in JSP tags that are 
only
used for their side effects, not for their output (which would get 
thrown
away anyway when Struts ultimately forwards to the presentation JSP).  
In
such a scenario, having SQL access tags would make a lot of sense.



david
Craig

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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Davidson, Glenn]

Please tell me that this is the start of a new urban legend and a joke.
There are people who like "Dog food" coding (see PHP, Perl) but this should
not be used as an excuse to pollute what Struts stands for. I understand
that you want to increase the acceptance of Struts but history has shown
that as soon as you start down the slippery slope of including "Dog Food"
features you become the technology providers that you currently make fun of.
I humbly request that you reconsider SQL tags and other "Dog Food" features.
Struts has made a great start and up till now the direction has been solid.
No "Dog Food" please!

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:20 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags to get
access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting yourself...this is
exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming practice!

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:

> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
> From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
> wrote:
>
> > Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced 
> > JavaServer Pages?"
>
> Yes.

David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's on the
JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.

I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating ones) in
JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch of
developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development (VB, PHP,
PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups to
ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not like what
people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group creating
the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.

Beyond that, it *is* feasible to separate business logic and presentation
logic into separate JSP pages, and enjoy the fact that the page is
automatically recompiled without needing the app to be restarted.  Couple
that with the fact that Struts lets you say that a particular 
really does a RequestDispatcher.include(), and you've suddenly got the
ability to program Actions as JSP pages ... sort of a mind twisting
approach, but it seems like it would be feasible in scenarios where the
business logic is simple enough to be scripted in JSP tags that are only
used for their side effects, not for their output (which would get thrown
away anyway when Struts ultimately forwards to the presentation JSP).  In
such a scenario, having SQL access tags would make a lot of sense.

>
>
> david

Craig

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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Lowe]

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 09:21 PM, David Geary wrote:

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 08:29 America/Denver, Mark Lowe wrote:

I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to  
start embedding logic in JSP's. While I can see that JSLT is more  
powerful, isn't it true to say that it encourages breaking with the  
view-controller demarcation?
Logic in a JSP page is not necessarily a bad thing. Logic that  
modifies business data is almost always inadvisable, but views have  
every right to pull data from a model, examine it, iterate over it,  
make logical decisions based upon it, and of course, display it.
Scenario example...

If I want to out-source design because I'm not a designer, if I only  
provide




..or perhaps






I'm not inviting some punk with a copy of dreamweaver or golive to come  
along and start making a dogs dinner of things. Sure I know how to do  
all this stuff in JSP's but somebody who's very skilled in design but  
not coding (even markup) can take an application and skin it,  
concentrating on their real craft rather than worrying about hiding and  
showing stuff.

I don't like disagreeing with the struts team or anyone who I would be  
better listening to than arguing with. But the sorts of things being  
suggested on this thread assumes  that designers are skilled coders,  
and this just isn't the case. Sorry but after working in Italy for a  
year, I cannot entertain the notion that leaving any logic to do in  
HTML, doing so would be doing half the job.

I've also worked in a production environment where there were 3 layers
Designers, Site builders, Programmers. But this was a company that has  
some big clients and can afford the additional resource required. They  
also provided the hosting and thus closing the code wasn't an issue,  
JSTL would be great in this environment, there was plenty of talent  
about. Everybody under one roof, UK work culture is very team  
orientated, as I suspect is the case in the US. Life was great and  
small green furry creatures from alfa-sentory where really small green  
fury creatures from alfa-sentory.

But the well resourced and financed agencies of the London new media  
industry are a different kettle of fish to other parts of the world.  
Being able to develop skinnable webapps is the only real way of getting  
webapps to make any money. I may never have met the designer who's  
going to work on my webapp, thus the demarcation is essential. If they  
can make my tiles layout look pretty then we're all happy.

If I had folks who'd written books on JSP etc then of course I'd be  
happy to leave presentation logic up to them.. But I really don't see  
this as a realistic expectation. I am listening, really I am... But if  
given a situation where everyone is this bright and/or experienced, I  
don't believe there'd be a demand for struts.

Cheers Mark




I find the struts tags on the other hand, used with zero scriptlet  
tolerance, forces you to do all the work in your action servlets.
The work that you do with JSTL, and therefore in JSP pages instead of  
actions, involves activities like iterating over data, conditional  
tests, accessing URLs, i18n, xml manipulation and database access.  
Except for database updates and transactions, all of those activities  
are well within the perview of a view.






david

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the  
advise of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use  
JSLT" it seems to me  a step backwards.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
thing since sliced bread.
David
I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely  
different
layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's  
parsing
objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
Jacob

- Keith

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
html
and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the  

tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination  
of the
 and  tags plus the expression language.

The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this  
strategy
because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
them.

David

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd be interested in finding out about this too.

-Original Message-
From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: Using 

Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Laurent PETIT]

From: "Mark Lowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I'd be interested in any research comparing the readability of the two
> and seeing which site builders prefer.
>  or
> [...] but I confess I'm more concerned with writing code for humans
> rather than compilers.
> I tend to use
> 
>   rather than
> 
>
> ..but both read better than
>
> 

Mark, I'm with you on this.
In fact, the very first samples of JSTL I saw were those "cabalistics"
,  with all those ${...} "shell like" stuffs, and I have
to admit they gave me a very bad first impression, keeping me away for
investigating more in it.

But in the same time, there is so many valuable people on this list pro-JSTL
than I have to admit I should be wrong to blame it without having a try (or
even, as you noted, that I ought to know it, if it's becoming the standard
!).
Anyway, the arguments pro-JSTL seem to turn around the SQL features, which
in fact is what I'm trying to keep away from : that's why I'm investigating
in Java.

If I wanted to do a quick app, I'll definetely use PHP for this (not
detailing the reasons ...)
 I was at my beginnings writing only ASP (VB6/VBScript/IIS4/WinNT4) or php,
and more than all, MAINTAINING a lot of ASP apps.
It was (is) a nightmare, because there was a lot of logic code duplication
at the top of each single page.
What a mess it should have been, if not only the logic, but the data select
where in the ASPs !!

Seriously, I haven't seen any app with a "select" used by only one page.

I certainly do understand why the select, update, ... tags are in JSTL : to
show users that they are listened to, to have the same functionalities as
other platforms, to attract more and more people on the J2EE platform.

But I simply don't understand why these feature is one of the firsts to be
presented when speaking about JSTL.

OK. Now it's time for me to go and have a closer look on it ! ;))

--
Laurent



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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Adam Hardy]

I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating ones) in
JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch of
developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development (VB, PHP,
PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups to
ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not like what
people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group creating
the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.
Would these developers be the ones who have to write an app with a 
deadline of last week and a sales manager who says "I don't give a 
monkeys about design, just f***ing do it!"

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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Jing Zhou]

- Original Message - 
From: "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


>
>
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:
>
> > Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
> > From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >
> > On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced
> > > JavaServer
> > > Pages?"
> >
> > Yes.
>
> David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's on the
> JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.

I have been reading "Graphic Java" for years. I think its author is the same
David. Excellent book on Swing I ever read.

>
> I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating ones) in
> JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch of
> developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development (VB,
> PHP, PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups
> to ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not like
> what people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group
> creating the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.

In real world, the resouces in web servers could be partitioned into two
categories, document oriented resources - static images, html, and JSP pages
in model 1, and application oriented resources - JSP pages for web
applications in model 2 (or MVC pattern). What we found is that
the business requirements for model 1 will never go away, even after
20 years. The decision from the EG is legitimate. The difficult thing is
how to justify which model (1 or 2) is more suitable for a business
problem (for less experienced developers)

>
> Beyond that, it *is* feasible to separate business logic and presentation
> logic into separate JSP pages, and enjoy the fact that the page is
> automatically recompiled without needing the app to be restarted.  Couple
> that with the fact that Struts lets you say that a particular 
> really does a RequestDispatcher.include(), and you've suddenly got the
> ability to program Actions as JSP pages ... sort of a mind twisting
> approach, but it seems like it would be feasible in scenarios where the
> business logic is simple enough to be scripted in JSP tags that are only
> used for their side effects, not for their output (which would get thrown
> away anyway when Struts ultimately forwards to the presentation JSP).  In
> such a scenario, having SQL access tags would make a lot of sense.

Separating business logic and presentation logic into view pages and
control pages is a done deal. In our pratice, the control pages never output
anything. So what we are expecting now is a set of good controller tags
to be integrated into our product. This really opens up a new field for
the JSTL EG to consider more than just SQL access. Concepts could
be advanced in a suprising way :-)

>
> >
> >
> > david
>
> Craig

Jing
Netspread Carrier
http://www.netspread.com

>
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>
>


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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Galbreath]

I think this approach is bullshit.  Why would you develop "SQL" tags to get
access to the db from the view?  You are contradicting yourself...this is
exactly what PERL and PHP do.  This is not good programming practice!

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:38 PM

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:

> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
> From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
> wrote:
>
> > Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced 
> > JavaServer Pages?"
>
> Yes.

David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's on the
JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.

I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating ones) in
JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch of
developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development (VB, PHP,
PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups to
ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not like what
people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group creating
the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.

Beyond that, it *is* feasible to separate business logic and presentation
logic into separate JSP pages, and enjoy the fact that the page is
automatically recompiled without needing the app to be restarted.  Couple
that with the fact that Struts lets you say that a particular 
really does a RequestDispatcher.include(), and you've suddenly got the
ability to program Actions as JSP pages ... sort of a mind twisting
approach, but it seems like it would be feasible in scenarios where the
business logic is simple enough to be scripted in JSP tags that are only
used for their side effects, not for their output (which would get thrown
away anyway when Struts ultimately forwards to the presentation JSP).  In
such a scenario, having SQL access tags would make a lot of sense.

>
>
> david

Craig

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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Geary wrote:

> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:22:17 -0600
> From: David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath
> wrote:
>
> > Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced
> > JavaServer
> > Pages?"
>
> Yes.

David was also a member of the JSR-52 expert group (JSTL), and he's on the
JSR-127 expert group (JavaServer Faces) as well.

I've never been a fan of having SQL tags (especially the updating ones) in
JSTL, for all the obvious reasons.  However, there are a whole bunch of
developers in the world who are used to model 1 style development (VB,
PHP, PERL, Cold Fusion, ...), and it would not be fair for expert groups
to ignore the needs of those developers, simply because we might not like
what people will do with the result.  This was a case where the group
creating the standard was actually listening to what users wanted.

Beyond that, it *is* feasible to separate business logic and presentation
logic into separate JSP pages, and enjoy the fact that the page is
automatically recompiled without needing the app to be restarted.  Couple
that with the fact that Struts lets you say that a particular 
really does a RequestDispatcher.include(), and you've suddenly got the
ability to program Actions as JSP pages ... sort of a mind twisting
approach, but it seems like it would be feasible in scenarios where the
business logic is simple enough to be scripted in JSP tags that are only
used for their side effects, not for their output (which would get thrown
away anyway when Struts ultimately forwards to the presentation JSP).  In
such a scenario, having SQL access tags would make a lot of sense.

>
>
> david

Craig

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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Galbreath]

My point is that if you want to cross multiple vendor barriers, use web
services (Service Oriented Architecture).  You are going to have to do this,
anyway, within a year, so start getting used to the idea.

Mark

btw: that was funny.

-Original Message-
From: Joe Zendle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:50 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I think it's time for your lithium!

-Original Message-
From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:44 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

Then abstract your classes from the underlying protocol using interfaces and
implement an SOA solution.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Joe Zendle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:42 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


The main point is that not every data source is an RDBMS. Yes, if you are
writing a medium sized app that will *always* be hosted on an RDBMS then the
sql tags are very powerful and nicely alleviate the god-awful impedence
mismatch. 

Many schema changes are made to denormalize data for performance reasons
(3rd normal form be damned :-). These changes are usually made later in the
development cycle as performance issues rear their ugly heads. The actual
data to be presented to the user does *not* change one bit however every jsp
that accesses the DB directly must change per the new schema (unless a view
is used) due to the tight coupling. Quite a nightmare.

I think the jstl xml tags are perfect for the decoupling layer that you
refer to. The view does not care where the xml comes from, be it RDBMS, dbm,
flatfile, legacy system, CORBA, EJB, etc.

Cheers.

-Original Message-
From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:00 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 13:39 America/Denver, Joe Zendle wrote:

> Yes, if every datasource in the universe is a set of tables in which 
> the schema never changes ;-)

Schema changes will be felt somewhere in your app, no matter how you 
read the database. It's true that industrial-strength apps shouldn't 
expose database schema to their views, but not all applications require 
that level of decoupling.

It would be an interesting exercise to encapsulate database access in 
JSP fragments. You could still decouple the database schema from your 
views, but your fragments could use JSTL, which is considerably easier 
than JDBC or EJBs.


david
>
> -Original Message-
> From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:11 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 12:34 America/Denver, Yuan, Saul
(TOR-ML)
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
>>>> start embedding logic in JSP's.
>>>
>>> I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't
really
>>> provide anything more than what you could do yourself with
scriptlets
>> and
>>> runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could
do
>> with
>>> those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.
>>
>> JSTL does have a few tags that deal with the backend, say the query
>> tag:
>> > without going through a controller layer. But this doesn't
necessarily
>> mean JSTL encourage you to do it this way.
>
> JSTL's SQL tags are unfairly maligned, IMO. If you stay away from
>  and , which clearly break MVC protocol*,

> your views can pull data from the model and display it (which is what
> views are supposed to do) with  and the param tags.
>
>
> david
>
> *because the views are modifying the model (database)
>
>>
>> Saul
>>
>>>
>>> I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
-
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
>
> --

RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Joe Zendle]

I think it's time for your lithium!

-Original Message-
From: Mark Galbreath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:44 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

Then abstract your classes from the underlying protocol using interfaces
and
implement an SOA solution.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Joe Zendle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:42 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


The main point is that not every data source is an RDBMS. Yes, if you
are
writing a medium sized app that will *always* be hosted on an RDBMS then
the
sql tags are very powerful and nicely alleviate the god-awful impedence
mismatch. 

Many schema changes are made to denormalize data for performance reasons
(3rd normal form be damned :-). These changes are usually made later in
the
development cycle as performance issues rear their ugly heads. The
actual
data to be presented to the user does *not* change one bit however every
jsp
that accesses the DB directly must change per the new schema (unless a
view
is used) due to the tight coupling. Quite a nightmare.

I think the jstl xml tags are perfect for the decoupling layer that you
refer to. The view does not care where the xml comes from, be it RDBMS,
dbm,
flatfile, legacy system, CORBA, EJB, etc.

Cheers.

-Original Message-
From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:00 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 13:39 America/Denver, Joe Zendle wrote:

> Yes, if every datasource in the universe is a set of tables in which
> the
> schema never changes ;-)

Schema changes will be felt somewhere in your app, no matter how you 
read the database. It's true that industrial-strength apps shouldn't 
expose database schema to their views, but not all applications require 
that level of decoupling.

It would be an interesting exercise to encapsulate database access in 
JSP fragments. You could still decouple the database schema from your 
views, but your fragments could use JSTL, which is considerably easier 
than JDBC or EJBs.


david
>
> -Original Message-
> From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:11 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 12:34 America/Denver, Yuan, Saul
(TOR-ML)
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to 
>>>> start embedding logic in JSP's.
>>>
>>> I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't
really
>>> provide anything more than what you could do yourself with
scriptlets
>> and
>>> runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could
do
>> with
>>> those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.
>>
>> JSTL does have a few tags that deal with the backend, say the query
>> tag:
>> > without going through a controller layer. But this doesn't
necessarily
>> mean JSTL encourage you to do it this way.
>
> JSTL's SQL tags are unfairly maligned, IMO. If you stay away from 
>  and , which clearly break MVC protocol*,

> your views can pull data from the model and display it (which is what 
> views are supposed to do) with  and the param tags.
>
>
> david
>
> *because the views are modifying the model (database)
>
>>
>> Saul
>>
>>>
>>> I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
-
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>
>
> -
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Galbreath]

Then abstract your classes from the underlying protocol using interfaces and
implement an SOA solution.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Joe Zendle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:42 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


The main point is that not every data source is an RDBMS. Yes, if you are
writing a medium sized app that will *always* be hosted on an RDBMS then the
sql tags are very powerful and nicely alleviate the god-awful impedence
mismatch. 

Many schema changes are made to denormalize data for performance reasons
(3rd normal form be damned :-). These changes are usually made later in the
development cycle as performance issues rear their ugly heads. The actual
data to be presented to the user does *not* change one bit however every jsp
that accesses the DB directly must change per the new schema (unless a view
is used) due to the tight coupling. Quite a nightmare.

I think the jstl xml tags are perfect for the decoupling layer that you
refer to. The view does not care where the xml comes from, be it RDBMS, dbm,
flatfile, legacy system, CORBA, EJB, etc.

Cheers.

-Original Message-
From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:00 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 13:39 America/Denver, Joe Zendle wrote:

> Yes, if every datasource in the universe is a set of tables in which
> the
> schema never changes ;-)

Schema changes will be felt somewhere in your app, no matter how you 
read the database. It's true that industrial-strength apps shouldn't 
expose database schema to their views, but not all applications require 
that level of decoupling.

It would be an interesting exercise to encapsulate database access in 
JSP fragments. You could still decouple the database schema from your 
views, but your fragments could use JSTL, which is considerably easier 
than JDBC or EJBs.


david
>
> -Original Message-
> From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:11 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 12:34 America/Denver, Yuan, Saul
(TOR-ML)
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to 
>>>> start embedding logic in JSP's.
>>>
>>> I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't
really
>>> provide anything more than what you could do yourself with
scriptlets
>> and
>>> runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could
do
>> with
>>> those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.
>>
>> JSTL does have a few tags that deal with the backend, say the query
>> tag:
>> > without going through a controller layer. But this doesn't
necessarily
>> mean JSTL encourage you to do it this way.
>
> JSTL's SQL tags are unfairly maligned, IMO. If you stay away from 
>  and , which clearly break MVC protocol*, 
> your views can pull data from the model and display it (which is what 
> views are supposed to do) with  and the param tags.
>
>
> david
>
> *because the views are modifying the model (database)
>
>>
>> Saul
>>
>>>
>>> I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
-
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Joe Zendle]

The main point is that not every data source is an RDBMS. Yes, if you
are writing a medium sized app that will *always* be hosted on an RDBMS
then the sql tags are very powerful and nicely alleviate the god-awful
impedence mismatch. 

Many schema changes are made to denormalize data for performance reasons
(3rd normal form be damned :-). These changes are usually made later in
the development cycle as performance issues rear their ugly heads. The
actual data to be presented to the user does *not* change one bit
however every jsp that accesses the DB directly must change per the new
schema (unless a view is used) due to the tight coupling. Quite a
nightmare.

I think the jstl xml tags are perfect for the decoupling layer that you
refer to. The view does not care where the xml comes from, be it RDBMS,
dbm, flatfile, legacy system, CORBA, EJB, etc.

Cheers.

-Original Message-
From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:00 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 13:39 America/Denver, Joe Zendle wrote:

> Yes, if every datasource in the universe is a set of tables in which 
> the
> schema never changes ;-)

Schema changes will be felt somewhere in your app, no matter how you 
read the database. It's true that industrial-strength apps shouldn't 
expose database schema to their views, but not all applications require 
that level of decoupling.

It would be an interesting exercise to encapsulate database access in 
JSP fragments. You could still decouple the database schema from your 
views, but your fragments could use JSTL, which is considerably easier 
than JDBC or EJBs.


david
>
> -Original Message-
> From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:11 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 12:34 America/Denver, Yuan, Saul
(TOR-ML)
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
>>>> start embedding logic in JSP's.
>>>
>>> I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't
really
>>> provide anything more than what you could do yourself with
scriptlets
>> and
>>> runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could
do
>> with
>>> those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.
>>
>> JSTL does have a few tags that deal with the backend, say the query
>> tag:
>> > without going through a controller layer. But this doesn't
necessarily
>> mean JSTL encourage you to do it this way.
>
> JSTL's SQL tags are unfairly maligned, IMO. If you stay away from
>  and , which clearly break MVC protocol*,
> your views can pull data from the model and display it (which is what
> views are supposed to do) with  and the param tags.
>
>
> david
>
> *because the views are modifying the model (database)
>
>>
>> Saul
>>
>>>
>>> I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Geary]

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:14 America/Denver, David Graham wrote:

--- David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 14:40 America/Denver, David Graham  
wrote:

The work that you do with JSTL, and therefore in JSP pages instead  
of
actions, involves activities like iterating over data, conditional
tests, accessing URLs, i18n, xml manipulation and database access.
Except for database updates and transactions, all of those  
activities
are well within the perview of a view.
So you're advocating placing some database logic in the view and some

in
Java classes?  I've had to maintain apps written that way and it was  
a
complete nightmare.  The view has absolutely no business querying the
database in all but the simplest apps (3 pages max).
No, I'm just saying that reading the database from a view is sometimes
a viable alternative for smaller applications, especially if you
encapsulate reading the database within the view itself.
Then you're only advocating this approach for apps that don't update
database data at all, they just view it.
Given an app that doesn't update
data, is around the 3-5 page mark, and doesn't have to support multiple
database types, I agree with you.  I have yet to come across any app  
that
fits that description though.
You could modify database data in actions (I know, I know) and read it  
from JSPs. Granted, it's not the best design, but I bet you could scale  
up to 5-7 pages with it. 8-)

david

David

I realize I'm bucking traditional wisdom but I don't like to see
 lumped together with  and .
The last two are much more offensive than the first.
david

David



david

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the
advise

of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT"  
it
seems to me  a step backwards.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the
best
thing since sliced bread.
David
I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely
different
layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's
parsing
objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
Jacob
- Keith

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use
are
html
and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the

tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination

of

the
 and  tags plus the expression language.
The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this
strategy
because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic

in
them.
David

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:
I'd be interested in finding out about this too.

-Original Message-
From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks
like
there
are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has
anyone
come
across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
drawbacks,
caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
Joshua

This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive
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disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly  
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Galbreath]

cool!  I've got your books in my library.

-Original Message-
From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:22 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath  
wrote:

> Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced
> JavaServer
> Pages?"

Yes.


david
>
> Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:09 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
>
> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 14:40 America/Denver, David Graham 
> wrote:
>
>>> The work that you do with JSTL, and therefore in JSP pages instead 
>>> of actions, involves activities like iterating over data, 
>>> conditional tests, accessing URLs, i18n, xml manipulation and 
>>> database access. Except for database updates and transactions, all 
>>> of those activities are well within the perview of a view.
>>
>> So you're advocating placing some database logic in the view and some 
>> in Java classes?  I've had to maintain apps written that way and it 
>> was a complete nightmare.  The view has absolutely no business 
>> querying the database in all but the simplest apps (3 pages max).
>
> No, I'm just saying that reading the database from a view is sometimes 
> a viable alternative for smaller applications, especially if you 
> encapsulate reading the database within the view itself.
>
> I realize I'm bucking traditional wisdom but I don't like to see 
>  lumped together with  and . 
> The last two are much more offensive than the first.
>
>
> david
>
>>
>> David
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> david
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the 
>>>> advise
>>>
>>>> of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" 
>>>> it seems to me  a step backwards.
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the 
>>>>> best thing since sliced bread.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>> I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely 
>>>>> different layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily 
>>>>> use JSTL's parsing objects in your own tags to make them a little 
>>>>> more flexible. Jacob
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Keith
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
>>>>>> To: Struts Users Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use 
>>>>>> are html
>>>>>> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination
>>>>>> of
>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>  and  tags plus the expression language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this 
>>>>>> strategy because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated 
>>>>>> business logic in
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>>> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>>> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
>>>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
>>>>>>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>>>>>>> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>

Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Geary]

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 15:18 America/Denver, Mark Galbreath  
wrote:

Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced  
JavaServer
Pages?"
Yes.

david
Mark

-Original Message-
From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:09 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 14:40 America/Denver, David Graham wrote:

The work that you do with JSTL, and therefore in JSP pages instead of
actions, involves activities like iterating over data, conditional
tests, accessing URLs, i18n, xml manipulation and database access.
Except for database updates and transactions, all of those activities
are well within the perview of a view.
So you're advocating placing some database logic in the view and some
in
Java classes?  I've had to maintain apps written that way and it was a
complete nightmare.  The view has absolutely no business querying the
database in all but the simplest apps (3 pages max).
No, I'm just saying that reading the database from a view is sometimes
a viable alternative for smaller applications, especially if you
encapsulate reading the database within the view itself.
I realize I'm bucking traditional wisdom but I don't like to see
 lumped together with  and .
The last two are much more offensive than the first.
david

David



david

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the
advise

of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it
seems to me  a step backwards.
On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the
best
thing since sliced bread.
David
I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely
different layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily
use JSTL's parsing
objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
Jacob
- Keith

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use
are
html
and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the

tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination
of

the
 and  tags plus the expression language.
The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this
strategy because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated
business logic
in
them.
David

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd be interested in finding out about this too.

-Original Message-
From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks
like there
are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has
anyone
come
across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
drawbacks,
caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
Joshua

This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive
use

of

addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use,
copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly
prohibited.
If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately by return email and delete this communication and
destroy all
copies.



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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Galbreath]

Is this the same David Geary that wrote, among others, "Advanced JavaServer
Pages?"

Mark

-Original Message-
From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:09 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 14:40 America/Denver, David Graham wrote:

>> The work that you do with JSTL, and therefore in JSP pages instead of 
>> actions, involves activities like iterating over data, conditional 
>> tests, accessing URLs, i18n, xml manipulation and database access. 
>> Except for database updates and transactions, all of those activities 
>> are well within the perview of a view.
>
> So you're advocating placing some database logic in the view and some
> in
> Java classes?  I've had to maintain apps written that way and it was a
> complete nightmare.  The view has absolutely no business querying the
> database in all but the simplest apps (3 pages max).

No, I'm just saying that reading the database from a view is sometimes  
a viable alternative for smaller applications, especially if you  
encapsulate reading the database within the view itself.

I realize I'm bucking traditional wisdom but I don't like to see  
 lumped together with  and .  
The last two are much more offensive than the first.


david

>
> David
>
>>
>>
>> david
>>
>>>
>>> I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the
>>> advise
>>
>>> of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it 
>>> seems to me  a step backwards.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the
>>>> best
>>>> thing since sliced bread.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>> I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely 
>>>> different layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily 
>>>> use JSTL's parsing
>>>> objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
>>>> Jacob
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Keith
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
>>>>> To: Struts Users Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use
>>>>> are
>>>>> html
>>>>> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the
>>>>> 
>>>>> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination  
>>>>> of
>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>  and  tags plus the expression language.
>>>>>
>>>>> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this 
>>>>> strategy because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated 
>>>>> business logic
>>>>> in
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>>> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
>>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
>>>>>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks 
>>>>>> like there
>>>>>> are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has
>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>> come
>>>>>> across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
>>>>>> drawbacks,
>>>>>> caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive
>>>>>> use
>>
>>>>>>

Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Graham]

--- David Geary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 14:40 America/Denver, David Graham wrote:
> 
> >> The work that you do with JSTL, and therefore in JSP pages instead of
> >> actions, involves activities like iterating over data, conditional
> >> tests, accessing URLs, i18n, xml manipulation and database access.
> >> Except for database updates and transactions, all of those activities
> >> are well within the perview of a view.
> >
> > So you're advocating placing some database logic in the view and some 
> 
> > in
> > Java classes?  I've had to maintain apps written that way and it was a
> > complete nightmare.  The view has absolutely no business querying the
> > database in all but the simplest apps (3 pages max).
> 
> No, I'm just saying that reading the database from a view is sometimes  
> a viable alternative for smaller applications, especially if you  
> encapsulate reading the database within the view itself.

Then you're only advocating this approach for apps that don't update
database data at all, they just view it.  Given an app that doesn't update
data, is around the 3-5 page mark, and doesn't have to support multiple
database types, I agree with you.  I have yet to come across any app that
fits that description though.

David

> 
> I realize I'm bucking traditional wisdom but I don't like to see  
>  lumped together with  and .  
> The last two are much more offensive than the first.
> 
> 
> david
> 
> >
> > David
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> david
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the  
> >>> advise
> >>
> >>> of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it
> >>> seems to me  a step backwards.
> >>>
> >>> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the  
> >>>> best
> >>>> thing since sliced bread.
> >>>>
> >>>> David
> >>>> I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely
> >>>> different
> >>>> layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's
> >>>> parsing
> >>>> objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
> >>>> Jacob
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Keith
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Original Message-
> >>>>> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
> >>>>> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >>>>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use  
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> html
> >>>>> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination 
> 
> >>>>> of
> >>
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>  and  tags plus the expression language.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this
> >>>>> strategy
> >>>>> because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic 
> 
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> David
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>>>> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -Original Message-
> >>>>>> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
> >>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
> >>>>>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> >>>>>> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks
> >>>>>> lik

Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Geary]

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 14:40 America/Denver, David Graham wrote:

The work that you do with JSTL, and therefore in JSP pages instead of
actions, involves activities like iterating over data, conditional
tests, accessing URLs, i18n, xml manipulation and database access.
Except for database updates and transactions, all of those activities
are well within the perview of a view.
So you're advocating placing some database logic in the view and some  
in
Java classes?  I've had to maintain apps written that way and it was a
complete nightmare.  The view has absolutely no business querying the
database in all but the simplest apps (3 pages max).
No, I'm just saying that reading the database from a view is sometimes  
a viable alternative for smaller applications, especially if you  
encapsulate reading the database within the view itself.

I realize I'm bucking traditional wisdom but I don't like to see  
 lumped together with  and .  
The last two are much more offensive than the first.

david

David



david

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the  
advise

of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it
seems to me  a step backwards.
On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the  
best
thing since sliced bread.

David
I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely
different
layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's
parsing
objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
Jacob
- Keith

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use  
are
html
and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the

tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination  
of

the
 and  tags plus the expression language.
The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this
strategy
because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic  
in
them.

David

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd be interested in finding out about this too.

-Original Message-
From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks
like
there
are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has
anyone
come
across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
drawbacks,
caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
Joshua

This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive  
use

of

addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use,
copying,
disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited.
If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately by return email and delete this communication and
destroy
all
copies.



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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Geary]

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 13:39 America/Denver, Joe Zendle wrote:

Yes, if every datasource in the universe is a set of tables in which 
the
schema never changes ;-)
Schema changes will be felt somewhere in your app, no matter how you 
read the database. It's true that industrial-strength apps shouldn't 
expose database schema to their views, but not all applications require 
that level of decoupling.

It would be an interesting exercise to encapsulate database access in 
JSP fragments. You could still decouple the database schema from your 
views, but your fragments could use JSTL, which is considerably easier 
than JDBC or EJBs.

david
-Original Message-
From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:11 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 12:34 America/Denver, Yuan, Saul (TOR-ML)
wrote:


I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
start embedding logic in JSP's.
I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't really
provide anything more than what you could do yourself with scriptlets
and
runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could do
with
those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.
JSTL does have a few tags that deal with the backend, say the query
tag:
JSTL's SQL tags are unfairly maligned, IMO. If you stay away from
 and , which clearly break MVC protocol*,
your views can pull data from the model and display it (which is what
views are supposed to do) with  and the param tags.
david

*because the views are modifying the model (database)

Saul

I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.

Craig

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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Lowe]

Firstly can I say that the last folks I'd like to enter into a debate 
with would be you guys.. I've learnt a lot just watching the dev list 
and seeing how struts has been developed over time, and I'm a fully 
signed up struts person. The same goes for tomcat.

I'd also like to say that I'll be giving JSTL another go, on your 
recommendations. But as another punk with a psych degree who cut his 
gums as a coder doing the insane DHTML that seemed to be in vogue a 
good few years ago, I just can't see how JSTL is closer to a site 
builder's mind set than the struts tags.

I imagine that you guys came from more formal programming backgrounds 
and thus see the world in a particular way, but I have trouble thinking 
that the syntax of JSTL is closer to the mind-set of a site builder. 
I'd be interested in any research comparing the readability of the two 
and seeing which site builders prefer.


On the point of the efficiency of forEach over iterate, thats handy to 
know, but I confess I'm more concerned with writing code for humans 
rather than compilers.

also the way that you reference properties I think is cleaner with the 
struts tags.

I tend to use

 rather than

..but both read better than



if sorry and perhaps I'm missing something but i fail to see what "out" 
is (well that's not true really true but as a rhetorical point).

<%= someObj.getFoo() %>
<% out.println(someObj.getFoo()); %>
How is the JSTL really any different to these traditional ways of 
accessing properties? In fact its arguably more confusing. Having 
If/else in the JSP is also gagging for problems (the same is true of 
logic tags), if you don't use logic tags (accept for iterate) then you 
have to do everything in the action servlet before it gets to the jsp.

As i only really use iterate and getProperty anyhow it wont be a huge 
burdon changng thing around, I like dollar signs in shell scripts and 
perl, really i do just not html pages.

As I said I'm not really up for a debate, nor would it be sensible, and 
if this has become the standard then I guess I'll be washed along like 
the other punks, and if yous are telling me they are huge leaps forward 
then I'll take it I'm wrong, and I'll move over to them.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 07:14 PM, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:



On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Graham wrote:

It's a huge step *forwards* from the Struts tags.  The JSTL is far 
more
powerful and easier to use.  Plus, it's a standard so every Java web
developer is expected to know it.
Besides these advantages (which are correct), there's another important
one -- because the tags are standard, smart JSP page compilers can
optimize the code that they generate.  For example, the compiler can 
turn
a  into a real "for" statement, instead of paying the 
overhead
price of the standard tag invocation protocol.

David
Craig

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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Graham]

> The work that you do with JSTL, and therefore in JSP pages instead of  
> actions, involves activities like iterating over data, conditional  
> tests, accessing URLs, i18n, xml manipulation and database access.  
> Except for database updates and transactions, all of those activities  
> are well within the perview of a view.

So you're advocating placing some database logic in the view and some in
Java classes?  I've had to maintain apps written that way and it was a
complete nightmare.  The view has absolutely no business querying the
database in all but the simplest apps (3 pages max).

David

> 
> 
> david
> 
> >
> > I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the advise
>  
> > of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it  
> > seems to me  a step backwards.
> >
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
> >> thing since sliced bread.
> >>
> >> David
> >> I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely  
> >> different
> >> layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's  
> >> parsing
> >> objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
> >> Jacob
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - Keith
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
> >>> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
> >>> html
> >>> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the  
> >>> 
> >>> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of
>  
> >>> the
> >>>  and  tags plus the expression language.
> >>>
> >>> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this  
> >>> strategy
> >>> because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
> >>> them.
> >>>
> >>> David
> >>>
> >>> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -Original Message-
> >>>> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
> >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
> >>>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> >>>> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks  
> >>>> like
> >>>> there
> >>>> are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has  
> >>>> anyone
> >>>> come
> >>>> across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
> >>>> drawbacks,
> >>>> caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
> >>>>
> >>>> Joshua
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use
>  
> >>>> of
> >>>
> >>>> addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
> >>>> information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use,  
> >>>> copying,
> >>>> disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited.
> If
> >>>> you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
> >>>> immediately by return email and delete this communication and  
> >>>> destroy
> >>>> all
> >>>> copies.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
>  
> >>>> -
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>
> >>>>
>  
> >>>> -
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>

Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Geary]

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 08:29 America/Denver, Mark Lowe wrote:

I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to  
start embedding logic in JSP's. While I can see that JSLT is more  
powerful, isn't it true to say that it encourages breaking with the  
view-controller demarcation?
Logic in a JSP page is not necessarily a bad thing. Logic that modifies  
business data is almost always inadvisable, but views have every right  
to pull data from a model, examine it, iterate over it, make logical  
decisions based upon it, and of course, display it.

I find the struts tags on the other hand, used with zero scriptlet  
tolerance, forces you to do all the work in your action servlets.
The work that you do with JSTL, and therefore in JSP pages instead of  
actions, involves activities like iterating over data, conditional  
tests, accessing URLs, i18n, xml manipulation and database access.  
Except for database updates and transactions, all of those activities  
are well within the perview of a view.

david

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the advise  
of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it  
seems to me  a step backwards.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
thing since sliced bread.
David
I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely  
different
layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's  
parsing
objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
Jacob

- Keith

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
html
and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the  

tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of  
the
 and  tags plus the expression language.

The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this  
strategy
because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
them.

David

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd be interested in finding out about this too.

-Original Message-
From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks  
like
there
are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has  
anyone
come
across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
drawbacks,
caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?

Joshua

This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use  
of

addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use,  
copying,
disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately by return email and delete this communication and  
destroy
all
copies.

 
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Joe Zendle]

Yes, if every datasource in the universe is a set of tables in which the
schema never changes ;-)

-Original Message-
From: David Geary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:11 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 12:34 America/Denver, Yuan, Saul (TOR-ML) 
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
>>> start embedding logic in JSP's.
>>
>> I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't really
>> provide anything more than what you could do yourself with scriptlets
> and
>> runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could do
> with
>> those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.
>
> JSTL does have a few tags that deal with the backend, say the query 
> tag:
>  without going through a controller layer. But this doesn't necessarily
> mean JSTL encourage you to do it this way.

JSTL's SQL tags are unfairly maligned, IMO. If you stay away from 
 and , which clearly break MVC protocol*, 
your views can pull data from the model and display it (which is what 
views are supposed to do) with  and the param tags.


david

*because the views are modifying the model (database)

>
> Saul
>
>>
>> I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>
>
> -
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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[James Mitchell]

Are you serious?

BTW.love your book!!!

--
James Mitchell
Software Developer/Struts Evangelist
http://www.struts-atlanta.org
678-910-8017
AIM:jmitchtx


- Original Message - 
From: "David Geary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


> On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 12:34 America/Denver, Yuan, Saul (TOR-ML) 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
> >>> start embedding logic in JSP's.
> >>
> >> I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't really
> >> provide anything more than what you could do yourself with scriptlets
> > and
> >> runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could do
> > with
> >> those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.
> >
> > JSTL does have a few tags that deal with the backend, say the query 
> > tag:
> >  > without going through a controller layer. But this doesn't necessarily
> > mean JSTL encourage you to do it this way.
> 
> JSTL's SQL tags are unfairly maligned, IMO. If you stay away from 
>  and , which clearly break MVC protocol*, 
> your views can pull data from the model and display it (which is what 
> views are supposed to do) with  and the param tags.
> 
> 
> david
> 
> *because the views are modifying the model (database)
> 
> >
> > Saul
> >
> >>
> >> I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.
> >>
> >> Craig
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> 
> 
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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Geary]

On Thursday, Jul 10, 2003, at 12:34 America/Denver, Yuan, Saul (TOR-ML) 
wrote:


I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
start embedding logic in JSP's.
I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't really
provide anything more than what you could do yourself with scriptlets
and
runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could do
with
those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.
JSTL does have a few tags that deal with the backend, say the query 
tag:

without going through a controller layer. But this doesn't necessarily
mean JSTL encourage you to do it this way.
JSTL's SQL tags are unfairly maligned, IMO. If you stay away from 
 and , which clearly break MVC protocol*, 
your views can pull data from the model and display it (which is what 
views are supposed to do) with  and the param tags.

david

*because the views are modifying the model (database)

Saul

I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.

Craig

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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Yuan, Saul (TOR-ML)]

> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:13 PM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Mark Lowe wrote:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:29:07 +0100
> > From: Mark Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >
> > I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
> > start embedding logic in JSP's.
> 
> I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't really
> provide anything more than what you could do yourself with scriptlets
and
> runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could do
with
> those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.

JSTL does have a few tags that deal with the backend, say the query tag:
 
> I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.
> 
> Craig
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 


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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, David Graham wrote:

>
> It's a huge step *forwards* from the Struts tags.  The JSTL is far more
> powerful and easier to use.  Plus, it's a standard so every Java web
> developer is expected to know it.

Besides these advantages (which are correct), there's another important
one -- because the tags are standard, smart JSP page compilers can
optimize the code that they generate.  For example, the compiler can turn
a  into a real "for" statement, instead of paying the overhead
price of the standard tag invocation protocol.

>
> David

Craig

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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Mark Lowe wrote:

> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:29:07 +0100
> From: Mark Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
> I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
> start embedding logic in JSP's.

I'd sure be interested in some examples of this.  JSTL doesn't really
provide anything more than what you could do yourself with scriptlets and
runtime expressions -- indeed, it's a lot LESS than what you could do with
those things, in addition to doing it much more succinctly.

I guess you could say my viewpoint on this is exactly the opposite.

Craig

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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Graham]

--- Laurent PETIT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> From: "David Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > No, it doesn't encourage poor programming.  Anyone can abuse the tags
> but
> > it's up to your designers to use them for view logic.  If you provide
> > beans that perform the business logic, the page designers will have no
> > reason to implement that logic in the view.
> 
> Yeah, maybe in a perfect world, with always up to date good developers,
> it
> may be possible that they won't abuse technologies and break layers ...
> 
> ... in a perfect world, maybe.
> 
> But my 'little' experience told me that if there's a way to do things
> quicker (at the cost of 'good programming practices'), you will end up
> with
> an unmaintainable piece of program ...
> 
> So I really understand what Mark is afraid of, because I had to be a
> maintainer of such bad layered applications.

This problem is not specific to JSTL.  You can write poor JSPs with the
Struts tags as well.

David

> 
> (I find in practice, it's almost impossible to keep bad programmers -or
> not
> up to date with the more recent technos- away from applications)
> 
> --
> Laurent
> 
> 
> 


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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Yansheng Lin]

Agreed:).

-Original Message-
From: Laurent PETIT [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: July 10, 2003 10:23 AM

(I find in practice, it's almost impossible to keep bad programmers -or not
up to date with the more recent technos- away from applications)



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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Laurent PETIT]

Hello,

From: "David Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> No, it doesn't encourage poor programming.  Anyone can abuse the tags but
> it's up to your designers to use them for view logic.  If you provide
> beans that perform the business logic, the page designers will have no
> reason to implement that logic in the view.

Yeah, maybe in a perfect world, with always up to date good developers, it
may be possible that they won't abuse technologies and break layers ...

... in a perfect world, maybe.

But my 'little' experience told me that if there's a way to do things
quicker (at the cost of 'good programming practices'), you will end up with
an unmaintainable piece of program ...

So I really understand what Mark is afraid of, because I had to be a
maintainer of such bad layered applications.

(I find in practice, it's almost impossible to keep bad programmers -or not
up to date with the more recent technos- away from applications)

--
Laurent




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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Aaron Longwell]

David Graham wrote:

--- Mark Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 

I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to 
start embedding logic in JSP's. While I can see that JSLT is more 
powerful, isn't it true to say that it encourages breaking with the 
view-controller demarcation?
   

No, it doesn't encourage poor programming.  Anyone can abuse the tags but
it's up to your designers to use them for view logic.  If you provide
beans that perform the business logic, the page designers will have no
reason to implement that logic in the view.
 

I find the struts tags on the other hand, used with zero scriptlet 
tolerance, forces you to do all the work in your action servlets.

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the advise 
of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it 
seems to me  a step backwards.
   

It's a huge step *forwards* from the Struts tags.  The JSTL is far more
powerful and easier to use.  Plus, it's a standard so every Java web
developer is expected to know it.
David
 

PLUS... They are WAY WAY SHORTER syntactically... as an aesthetics freak 
(also a designer), I prefer the JSTL syntax.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

   

Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
thing since sliced bread.
David
I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely 
different
layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's 
parsing
objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
Jacob

 

- Keith

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
html
and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the 

tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of 
the
 and  tags plus the expression language.

The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this
   

strategy
   

because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
them.
David

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
   

I'd be interested in finding out about this too.

-Original Message-
From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
 

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   

Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks
 

like
   

there
are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has 
anyone
come
across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
drawbacks,
caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?

Joshua

This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use 
of
 

addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use,
 

copying,
   

disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately by return email and delete this communication and
 

destroy
   

all
copies.


 

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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

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---

Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Graham]

--- Mark Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to 
> start embedding logic in JSP's. While I can see that JSLT is more 
> powerful, isn't it true to say that it encourages breaking with the 
> view-controller demarcation?

No, it doesn't encourage poor programming.  Anyone can abuse the tags but
it's up to your designers to use them for view logic.  If you provide
beans that perform the business logic, the page designers will have no
reason to implement that logic in the view.

> 
> I find the struts tags on the other hand, used with zero scriptlet 
> tolerance, forces you to do all the work in your action servlets.
> 
> I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the advise 
> of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it 
> seems to me  a step backwards.

It's a huge step *forwards* from the Struts tags.  The JSTL is far more
powerful and easier to use.  Plus, it's a standard so every Java web
developer is expected to know it.

David

> 
> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:
> 
> >
> > Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
> > thing since sliced bread.
> >
> > David
> > I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely 
> > different
> > layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's 
> > parsing
> > objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
> > Jacob
> >
> >>
> >> - Keith
> >>
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
> >> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> >> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
> >> html
> >> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the 
> >> 
> >> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of 
> >> the
> >>  and  tags plus the expression language.
> >>
> >> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this
> strategy
> >> because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
> >> them.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
> >>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> >>> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks
> like
> >>> there
> >>> are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has 
> >>> anyone
> >>> come
> >>> across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
> >>> drawbacks,
> >>> caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
> >>>
> >>> Joshua
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use 
> >>> of
> >>
> >>> addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
> >>> information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use,
> copying,
> >>> disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
> >>> you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
> >>> immediately by return email and delete this communication and
> destroy
> >>> all
> >>> copies.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> -
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>
> >>>
> -
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> __
> >> Do you Yahoo!?
> >> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> >

RE: Réf. : RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Davidson, Glenn]

Go to www.java.sun.com and type JSTL in the search box and you will get a
list of resources available. There are tutorials and references to books&
articles etc. 

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 10:45 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Réf. : RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags



can someone point me out a tutorial or a good book about JSLT.

Meissa




"Mike Jasnowski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10/07/2003 16:33
Veuillez répondre à "Struts Users Mailing List"



Pour :  "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    cc :

    Objet : RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I would think you'd run into that possibility with either Struts or JSTL.
Our designers love JSTL because it's succinct and a bit more obvious in

what
object.property you are working with. But it's sometimes up to me and

other
engineers to steer the designers away from bad practices.

-Original Message-
From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 10:29 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
start embedding logic in JSP's. While I can see that JSLT is more
powerful, isn't it true to say that it encourages breaking with the
view-controller demarcation?

I find the struts tags on the other hand, used with zero scriptlet
tolerance, forces you to do all the work in your action servlets.

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the advise
of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it
seems to me  a step backwards.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

>
> Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
> thing since sliced bread.
>
> David
> I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely
> different
> layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's
> parsing
> objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
> Jacob
>
>>
>> - Keith
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
>> To: Struts Users Mailing List
>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>
>>
>> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
>> html
>> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the
>> 
>> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of
>> the
>>  and  tags plus the expression language.
>>
>> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this strategy
>> because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
>> them.
>>
>> David
>>
>> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
>>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>>
>>>
>>> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks like
>>> there
>>> are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has
>>> anyone
>>> come
>>> across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
>>> drawbacks,
>>> caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
>>>
>>> Joshua
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use
>>> of
>>
>>> addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
>>> information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying,
>>> disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
>>> you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
>>> immediately by return email and delete this communication and destroy
>>> all
>>> copies.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, 

RE: Réf. : RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Raible, Matt]

www.jstlbook.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:45 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Réf. : RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags



can someone point me out a tutorial or a good book about JSLT.

Meissa




"Mike Jasnowski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10/07/2003 16:33
Veuillez répondre à "Struts Users Mailing List"



Pour :  "Struts Users Mailing List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    cc :

        Objet : RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I would think you'd run into that possibility with either Struts or
JSTL.
Our designers love JSTL because it's succinct and a bit more obvious in

what
object.property you are working with. But it's sometimes up to me and

other
engineers to steer the designers away from bad practices.

-Original Message-
From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 10:29 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
start embedding logic in JSP's. While I can see that JSLT is more
powerful, isn't it true to say that it encourages breaking with the
view-controller demarcation?

I find the struts tags on the other hand, used with zero scriptlet
tolerance, forces you to do all the work in your action servlets.

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the advise
of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it
seems to me  a step backwards.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

>
> Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
> thing since sliced bread.
>
> David
> I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely
> different
> layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's
> parsing
> objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
> Jacob
>
>>
>> - Keith
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
>> To: Struts Users Mailing List
>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>
>>
>> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
>> html
>> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the
>> 
>> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of
>> the
>>  and  tags plus the expression language.
>>
>> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this
strategy
>> because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
>> them.
>>
>> David
>>
>> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
>>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>>
>>>
>>> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks
like
>>> there
>>> are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has
>>> anyone
>>> come
>>> across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
>>> drawbacks,
>>> caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
>>>
>>> Joshua
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use
>>> of
>>
>>> addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
>>> information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use,
copying,
>>> disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
>>> you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
>>> immediately by return email and delete this communication and
destroy
>>> all
>>> copies.
>>>
>>>
>>>
-
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>>
-
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>
>>
>> __
>> 

Réf. : RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[meissa . Sakho]

can someone point me out a tutorial or a good book about JSLT.

Meissa




"Mike Jasnowski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10/07/2003 16:33
Veuillez répondre à "Struts Users Mailing List"


Pour :  "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    cc :
        Objet : RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I would think you'd run into that possibility with either Struts or JSTL.
Our designers love JSTL because it's succinct and a bit more obvious in
what
object.property you are working with. But it's sometimes up to me and
other
engineers to steer the designers away from bad practices.

-Original Message-
From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 10:29 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
start embedding logic in JSP's. While I can see that JSLT is more
powerful, isn't it true to say that it encourages breaking with the
view-controller demarcation?

I find the struts tags on the other hand, used with zero scriptlet
tolerance, forces you to do all the work in your action servlets.

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the advise
of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it
seems to me  a step backwards.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

>
> Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
> thing since sliced bread.
>
> David
> I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely
> different
> layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's
> parsing
> objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
> Jacob
>
>>
>> - Keith
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
>> To: Struts Users Mailing List
>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>
>>
>> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
>> html
>> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the
>> 
>> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of
>> the
>>  and  tags plus the expression language.
>>
>> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this strategy
>> because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
>> them.
>>
>> David
>>
>> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
>>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>>
>>>
>>> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks like
>>> there
>>> are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has
>>> anyone
>>> come
>>> across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
>>> drawbacks,
>>> caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
>>>
>>> Joshua
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use
>>> of
>>
>>> addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
>>> information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying,
>>> disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
>>> you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
>>> immediately by return email and delete this communication and destroy
>>> all
>>> copies.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>
>>
>> __
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail

RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mike Jasnowski]

I would think you'd run into that possibility with either Struts or JSTL.
Our designers love JSTL because it's succinct and a bit more obvious in what
object.property you are working with. But it's sometimes up to me and other
engineers to steer the designers away from bad practices.

-Original Message-
From: Mark Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 10:29 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to
start embedding logic in JSP's. While I can see that JSLT is more
powerful, isn't it true to say that it encourages breaking with the
view-controller demarcation?

I find the struts tags on the other hand, used with zero scriptlet
tolerance, forces you to do all the work in your action servlets.

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the advise
of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it
seems to me  a step backwards.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

>
> Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
> thing since sliced bread.
>
> David
> I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely
> different
> layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's
> parsing
> objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
> Jacob
>
>>
>> - Keith
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
>> To: Struts Users Mailing List
>> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>
>>
>> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
>> html
>> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the
>> 
>> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of
>> the
>>  and  tags plus the expression language.
>>
>> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this strategy
>> because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
>> them.
>>
>> David
>>
>> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
>>> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>>>
>>>
>>> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks like
>>> there
>>> are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has
>>> anyone
>>> come
>>> across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
>>> drawbacks,
>>> caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
>>>
>>> Joshua
>>>
>>>
>>> This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use
>>> of
>>
>>> addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
>>> information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying,
>>> disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
>>> you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
>>> immediately by return email and delete this communication and destroy
>>> all
>>> copies.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>
>>
>> __
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>
>
> __
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>


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Re: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Mark Lowe]

I started using JSTL but found that it encouraged site builders to 
start embedding logic in JSP's. While I can see that JSLT is more 
powerful, isn't it true to say that it encourages breaking with the 
view-controller demarcation?

I find the struts tags on the other hand, used with zero scriptlet 
tolerance, forces you to do all the work in your action servlets.

I'm open to views against mine, and I also wouldn't dismiss the advise 
of the folks who developed struts, but whenever I read "use JSLT" it 
seems to me  a step backwards.

On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:05 PM, Hookom, Jacob wrote:

Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
thing since sliced bread.
David
I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely 
different
layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's 
parsing
objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
Jacob

- Keith

-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
html
and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the 

tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of 
the
 and  tags plus the expression language.

The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this strategy
because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
them.
David

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd be interested in finding out about this too.

-Original Message-
From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks like
there
are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has 
anyone
come
across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
drawbacks,
caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?

Joshua

This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use 
of

addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying,
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Hookom, Jacob]

Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
thing since sliced bread.

David
I agree, I'm even using the EL parser to do stuff on completely different
layers for scripting logic.  Also, you can VERY easily use JSTL's parsing
objects in your own tags to make them a little more flexible.
Jacob

>
> - Keith
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
>
>
> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
> html
> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the 
> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of the
>  and  tags plus the expression language.
>
> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this strategy
> because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
> them.
>
> David
>
> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> >
> >
> > A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks like
> > there
> > are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has anyone
> > come
> > across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
> > drawbacks,
> > caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
> >
> > Joshua
> >
> >
> > This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of
>
> > addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged
> > information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying,
> > disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
> > you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
> > immediately by return email and delete this communication and destroy
> > all
> > copies.
> >
> >
> > -
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> >
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Graham]

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There isn't really any business logic with the struts tags either, and
> there's generally no need for scriptlets.  I don't know anything about
> JSTL,
> but I'm just not seeing the advantage here.  At least not yet.

Start using it and you will :-).  The expression language is the best
thing since sliced bread.

David

> 
> - Keith
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> 
> 
> I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are
> html
> and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the 
> tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of the
>  and  tags plus the expression language.
> 
> The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this strategy
> because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in
> them.
> 
> David
> 
> --- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD)
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
> > To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> > Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> > 
> > 
> > A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks like
> > there
> > are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has anyone
> > come
> > across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
> > drawbacks,
> > caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
> > 
> > Joshua
> > 
> > 
> > This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of
> 
> > addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged 
> > information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, 
> > disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If 
> > you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
> > immediately by return email and delete this communication and destroy
> > all
> > copies.
> > 
> > 
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > -
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> > 
> 
> 
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Kamholz, Keith (corp-staff) USX]

There isn't really any business logic with the struts tags either, and
there's generally no need for scriptlets.  I don't know anything about JSTL,
but I'm just not seeing the advantage here.  At least not yet.

- Keith


-Original Message-
From: David Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:51 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are html
and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the 
tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of the
 and  tags plus the expression language.

The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this strategy
because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in them.

David

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> 
> 
> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks like
> there
> are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has anyone
> come
> across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
> drawbacks,
> caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
> 
> Joshua
> 
> 
> This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of 
> addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged 
> information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, 
> disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If 
> you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
> immediately by return email and delete this communication and destroy
> all
> copies.
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
> -
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[David Graham]

I don't have any documentation but the only Struts taglibs I use are html
and tiles.  I replaced my usage of the bean tags with the 
tag and the Struts logic tags are all replaced with a combination of the
 and  tags plus the expression language.

The JSPs are remarkably easy to maintain and debug using this strategy
because there aren't any scriptlets or complicated business logic in them.

David

--- "Kamholz, Keith   (corp-staff) USX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd be interested in finding out about this too.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags
> 
> 
> A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks like
> there
> are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has anyone
> come
> across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits,
> drawbacks,
> caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?
> 
> Joshua
> 
> 
> This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of 
> addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged 
> information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, 
> disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If 
> you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
> immediately by return email and delete this communication and destroy
> all
> copies.
> 
> 
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RE: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags

[Kamholz, Keith (corp-staff) USX]

I'd be interested in finding out about this too.


-Original Message-
From: White, Joshua A (HTSC, CASD) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:30 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: Using JSTL tags instead of Struts tags


A previous thread had encouraged me to look into JSTL.  It looks like there
are several tags which I could use instead of Struts tags.  Has anyone come
across any documentation about experiences doing this (benefits, drawbacks,
caveats)?  Anyone care to share their experience?

Joshua


This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of 
addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged 
information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, 
disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If 
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
immediately by return email and delete this communication and destroy all
copies.


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