Re: [Sursound] MSG sphere beamforming sound

[Augustine Leudar]

Apparently wavefield synthesis combined with "beamforming technology" with
164,000 loudspeakers
Audio bit at 4:51

https://www.archpaper.com/2018/02/behold-msg-sphere-precision-sound-las-vegas/

Marketing may have got carried away again?



https://www.archpaper.com/2018/02/behold-msg-sphere-precision-sound-las-vegas/

On Friday, 7 July 2023, Augustine Leudar  wrote:

> Anyone else bristling with skepticism? Some are claiming one seat can hear
> one language, the adjacent seat a totally different language with no
> "bleeding" anyone heard this? Id love it to be true but 
>
> https://www.archpaper.com/2018/02/behold-msg-sphere-
> precision-sound-las-vegas/
>
>
>
> --
> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
>
>
>
>
>

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[Sursound] MSG sphere beamforming sound

[Augustine Leudar]

Anyone else bristling with skepticism? Some are claiming one seat can hear
one language, the adjacent seat a totally different language with no
"bleeding" anyone heard this? Id love it to be true but 

https://www.archpaper.com/2018/02/behold-msg-sphere-precision-sound-las-vegas/



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[Sursound] The Garden of Unearthly Delights

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Spatials,
On the outside.possibility that anyone finds themselves around Killarney
National Park in Ireland today, The Garden of Unearthly Delights 3D sound
installation is open free to the public, details here:

https://fb.watch/jw0M1Skl1n/

Exact location:

Dropped pin
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iP74ynDuhJiwVz1U6

All the best
Gus




On Wed, 15 Feb 2023, 17:00 ,  wrote:

> Send Sursound mailing list submissions to
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> This is the responsibility of digest subscribers. the community and list
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Tenure-track professorship open in Aalto University (Pulkki Ville)
>2. Re: So long CIPIC HRTF? (Fons Adriaensen)
>3. Re: So long CIPIC HRTF? (Sampo Syreeni)
>4. Re: So long CIPIC HRTF? (Chris Woolf)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 11:21:21 +
> From: Pulkki Ville 
> To: "sursound@music.vt.edu" 
> Subject: [Sursound] Tenure-track professorship open in Aalto
> University
> Message-ID: <433f58be-15e0-474d-b35b-17f1036d5...@aalto.fi>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello,
>
> [sorry for cross-posting]
>
> We have an assistant-level tenure-track faculty position Department of
> Information and Communications Engineering in Aalto University.
>
> We welcome all applicants with a research background where psychoacoustics
> is applied in audio or any other field of acoustics.
>
> More details here:
>
> https://aalto.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com/PrivateJobPosting/job/Otaniemi-Espoo-Finland/Assistant-Professor-in-Technical-Psychoacoustics--tenure-track-_R35274-5
>
> The campus of Aalto University is in Espoo, metropolitan area of Helsinki,
> Finland.
>
>
> All the best,
> Ville Pulkki
> Professor of Acoustics
> Acoustics lab
> Dept Information and Communications Engineering
> Aalto University
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> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 12:44:46 +0100
> From: Fons Adriaensen 
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] So long CIPIC HRTF?
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 05:06:39PM +0200, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
>
> > I'd put counter-aileron, maybe some rudder, and often pull down
> > to recover airspeed...
>
> 'pull down' ??
>
> You either 'pull up' or 'push down'...
>
> And if you're in a spiral, there is no need to recover
> airspeed - it will be dangerously high and you want to
> reduce it.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:43:00 +0200 (EET)
> From: Sampo Syreeni 
> To: ch...@chriswoolf.co.uk,  Surround Sound discussion group
> 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] So long CIPIC HRTF?
> Message-ID: <34f893f7-9177-22aa-cac3-ae267186...@lakka.kapsi.fi>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On 2022-12-31, Chris Woolf wrote:
>
> > It has always struck me that we can indeed adapt remarkably quickly to
> > local changes in our personal HTRF, and that therefore this needs to
> > be considered as a dynamic affair, rather than a purely static one.
>
> By the way, there are even more remarkable examples of that adaptability
> in psychophysics. Perhaps the most dramatic I know of is the one of
> inverting goggles. Apparently, if you consistently wear a headset which
> flips your vision upside down, in about two to three weeks your circuits
> adjust to compensate, and then back again once you stop the experiment.
> That happens even if you're an adult, so that this is not an example of
> early childhood, low level plasticity and the irreversibility that comes
> with it. (Pace kittens only shown vertical stripes and that sort of
> thing.)
>
> > 

[Sursound] Immersive Installation Kew

[Augustine Leudar]

Dear all,
If anyone's in London, I have a sound installation running at Kew Gardens
in the temperate house till the end of October. Its been through several
incarnations and different speaker arrays, the current is a bit unusual in
that its two lines of speakers one at height, one at ground level 60m long,
so sounds travel up and down one Edge of the building

Link here :

https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/mexico-magico

I attach a document for this list which details Artistic, Scientific and
Technical information for anyone interested
Al the best,
Gus

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Re: [Sursound] binaural to FOA?

[Augustine Leudar]

You can try Spats Transaural thing. I honestly think you'd be better off
building a quadraphonic installation from scratch rather than trying to
convert things. By all means use your binaural recording s in it - but be
aware the interaural time differences can cause a slight phase difference
between speakers which can lead to comb filtering and a kind "weakening "
of the sound - I've never liked any of my binaural recordings over speakers
(I used those little soundman things)
Good luck!

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 13:01, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> That's what I'm looking for: a simple bodge, to be able to use stereo
> and/or binaural recordings that could be available instead of FOA
> recordings; I don't want to miss opportunities to record something
> interesting because I don't have a 5th order microphone, only for some
> interactive entertainment...
>
> Transaural can be amazing, and it could work for my use case...
>
> Thanks for the tips. I may fail miserably, but it's worth a try.
>
> Marc
>
> Le 21-03-05 à 06 h 44, Dave Hunt a écrit :
> > Hi Marc,
> >
> > Yes, this is very difficult to do properly but a simple bodge is
> surprisingly effective. Undoing the built in binaural encoding from the
> original recording is next to impossible.
> >
> > I have done what is suggested in the ambisonic.net sources in Max. XY
> or polar coordinates place the left and right channels at variable points
> on a circle in a 1st order ambisonic encoder, giving a basic B-format
> output. This image can then be rotated by fairly simple maths to alter the
> coordinates of both channels together, or by rotating the B-format signal.
> The rest is done by an ambisonic decoder.
> >
> > Once in B-format, the WXY components can be manipulated; gain, eq,
> directional dominance. You can also apply a Z coordinate to move the image
> up and down.
> >
> > The result is undeniably diffuse, but usable. Generally binaural
> recordings sound OK as normal stereo, obviously without the proper spatial
> impression.
> >
> > Interesting effects are also achieved by treating stereo as UHJ and
> deriving B-Format from that. I think there is something on that on
> ambisonic.net, as well as super stereo and Dolby stereo.
> >
> > Transaural crosstalk cancellation only works over a very small area, and
> becomes more complex for quad. Many such systems go for some form of
> closely spaced dipole speaker layout, possibly with extra speakers. The
> University of Southampton had something like that, but references might
> take some finding.
> >
> > Ciao,
> >
> > Dave Hunt
> >
> >
> >> On 4 Mar 2021, at 17:00, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Marc Lavallée 
> >> Subject: [Sursound] binaural to FOA?
> >> Date: 4 March 2021 at 13:55:42 GMT
> >> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> >>
> >>
> >> I have a "back to the basics" question.
> >>
> >> For a simple project I planned to record in FOA or HOA, but the final
> render would be in simple quad (horizontal). So I don't need a lot of
> resolution. I enjoy recording with binaural microphones (the kind that
> looks like cheap earbuds), so I can record continuously without being
> noticed.
> >>
> >> So I wondered; is there a method to "convert" binaural to
> horizontal-only FOA? Apparently there is:
> >>
> >> https://www.ambisonic.net/quaduhj.html
> >>
> >> http://www.ambisonic.net/ambimix.html
> >>
> >> I guess my question is: what would be the software equivalent of a
> pan-rotate device?
> >>
> >> Marc
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> ___
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Re: [Sursound] binaural to FOA?

[Augustine Leudar]

should have said "quad will always be better than stereo" for installations

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 14:48, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> yeah - I read the binaural to Bformat section. But the problem is with
> what they describe there that I don't think it would be any different from
> converting a normal stereo signal to b format - in fact it could even be a
> little bit worse. Its nothing to do with Kemar heads - just the fact if you
> have a piece of software like Dearvr you can pan a sound in a circle and
> output it as Binaural or FOA or whatever. The problem you'll have with
> panning binaural on to speaker like they described panned left and right
> etc is you will get the binaural cues for the left ear hitting both ears
> and the binaural cues that are just for the right ear hitting both ears
> thus rendering any "binaural" cues in the recording ineffective - even
> worse with quad - thats why crosstalk cancellation is built in to
> transaural systems - but Ive not hear dthat work very well either.
> I think you're best bet would be to convert binaural to normal stereo and
> do that for two pairs - quad will always be better than binaural for an
> installation or just build up a quad soundscape from scratch .And yes I did
> try what you are describing years ago .
>
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 14:39, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
>
>> Humans heads may be different from the mythic KEMAR dummy head, but for
>> my use case I don't think it matters...
>>
>> I don't expect this "conversion" to be precise, or as a mean to archive
>> binaural recordings using ambisonics; my intention is simply to use
>> binaural recordings for an art installation with small speakers close to
>> the user; I suspect it would feel better with a quad setup than a stereo
>> setup, because the user would move (turning its head and/body).
>>
>> See the "Binaural to B-Format" section of
>> https://www.ambisonic.net/quaduhj.html, then the Pan-Rotate section of
>> "http://www.ambisonic.net/ambimix.html;; How to do something similar
>> with software methods?
>>
>> I'll try a few things, but maybe someone in the large Sursound community
>> did something similar?
>>
>> (All we see now on this mailing list are academic/commercial
>> announcements, so please excuse my naïve question...)
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> Le 21-03-04 à 09 h 21, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
>> > There might be something that uses crosstalk cancellation that might
>> work
>> > for a normal two speaker (transaural) approach? Although I can't see
>> how it
>> > would work for quad though - or why youd need to use ambisonics fo it. I
>> > know Spat has a binaural transaural converter - which can also convert
>> to
>> > quad - but I dont know if you can use your own recordings - I think it's
>> > just for stuff panned in the software
>> >
>> > On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 14:15, Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm, not sure there would be Marc - I can see how it easy enough to
>> >> convert in software ambisonics to binaural by convolving with HRTFs and
>> >> potentially the other way round too if you used the same software that
>> was
>> >> convolving HRTFS to output Ambisonics (or even plain old quad) but a
>> >> recording with your own personal HRTFs on it ? I cant see how  - unless
>> >> theres some super software that has your personal HRTF , can get that
>> data
>> >> from the recording (which sounds very difficult) and convert to
>> >> ambisonics/whatever - would love to be wrong though!
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 13:55, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I have a "back to the basics" question.
>> >>>
>> >>> For a simple project I planned to record in FOA or HOA, but the final
>> >>> render would be in simple quad (horizontal). So I don't need a lot of
>> >>> resolution. I enjoy recording with binaural microphones (the kind that
>> >>> looks like cheap earbuds), so I can record continuously without being
>> >>> noticed.
>> >>>
>> >>> So I wondered; is there a method to "convert" binaural to
>> >>> horizontal-only FOA? Apparently there is:
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.ambisonic.net/quaduhj.html
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.ambisonic.net/ambimix.html
>> >>>
>> >>> I guess my question is: what would b

Re: [Sursound] binaural to FOA?

[Augustine Leudar]

yeah - I read the binaural to Bformat section. But the problem is with what
they describe there that I don't think it would be any different from
converting a normal stereo signal to b format - in fact it could even be a
little bit worse. Its nothing to do with Kemar heads - just the fact if you
have a piece of software like Dearvr you can pan a sound in a circle and
output it as Binaural or FOA or whatever. The problem you'll have with
panning binaural on to speaker like they described panned left and right
etc is you will get the binaural cues for the left ear hitting both ears
and the binaural cues that are just for the right ear hitting both ears
thus rendering any "binaural" cues in the recording ineffective - even
worse with quad - thats why crosstalk cancellation is built in to
transaural systems - but Ive not hear dthat work very well either.
I think you're best bet would be to convert binaural to normal stereo and
do that for two pairs - quad will always be better than binaural for an
installation or just build up a quad soundscape from scratch .And yes I did
try what you are describing years ago .

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 14:39, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> Humans heads may be different from the mythic KEMAR dummy head, but for
> my use case I don't think it matters...
>
> I don't expect this "conversion" to be precise, or as a mean to archive
> binaural recordings using ambisonics; my intention is simply to use
> binaural recordings for an art installation with small speakers close to
> the user; I suspect it would feel better with a quad setup than a stereo
> setup, because the user would move (turning its head and/body).
>
> See the "Binaural to B-Format" section of
> https://www.ambisonic.net/quaduhj.html, then the Pan-Rotate section of
> "http://www.ambisonic.net/ambimix.html;; How to do something similar
> with software methods?
>
> I'll try a few things, but maybe someone in the large Sursound community
> did something similar?
>
> (All we see now on this mailing list are academic/commercial
> announcements, so please excuse my naïve question...)
>
> Marc
>
> Le 21-03-04 à 09 h 21, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
> > There might be something that uses crosstalk cancellation that might work
> > for a normal two speaker (transaural) approach? Although I can't see how
> it
> > would work for quad though - or why youd need to use ambisonics fo it. I
> > know Spat has a binaural transaural converter - which can also convert to
> > quad - but I dont know if you can use your own recordings - I think it's
> > just for stuff panned in the software
> >
> > On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 14:15, Augustine Leudar  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I'm, not sure there would be Marc - I can see how it easy enough to
> >> convert in software ambisonics to binaural by convolving with HRTFs and
> >> potentially the other way round too if you used the same software that
> was
> >> convolving HRTFS to output Ambisonics (or even plain old quad) but a
> >> recording with your own personal HRTFs on it ? I cant see how  - unless
> >> theres some super software that has your personal HRTF , can get that
> data
> >> from the recording (which sounds very difficult) and convert to
> >> ambisonics/whatever - would love to be wrong though!
> >>
> >> On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 13:55, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have a "back to the basics" question.
> >>>
> >>> For a simple project I planned to record in FOA or HOA, but the final
> >>> render would be in simple quad (horizontal). So I don't need a lot of
> >>> resolution. I enjoy recording with binaural microphones (the kind that
> >>> looks like cheap earbuds), so I can record continuously without being
> >>> noticed.
> >>>
> >>> So I wondered; is there a method to "convert" binaural to
> >>> horizontal-only FOA? Apparently there is:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.ambisonic.net/quaduhj.html
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ambisonic.net/ambimix.html
> >>>
> >>> I guess my question is: what would be the software equivalent of a
> >>> pan-rotate device?
> >>>
> >>> Marc
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Sursound mailing list
> >>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> >>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
>

Re: [Sursound] binaural to FOA?

[Augustine Leudar]

There might be something that uses crosstalk cancellation that might work
for a normal two speaker (transaural) approach? Although I can't see how it
would work for quad though - or why youd need to use ambisonics fo it. I
know Spat has a binaural transaural converter - which can also convert to
quad - but I dont know if you can use your own recordings - I think it's
just for stuff panned in the software

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 14:15, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> I'm, not sure there would be Marc - I can see how it easy enough to
> convert in software ambisonics to binaural by convolving with HRTFs and
> potentially the other way round too if you used the same software that was
> convolving HRTFS to output Ambisonics (or even plain old quad) but a
> recording with your own personal HRTFs on it ? I cant see how  - unless
> theres some super software that has your personal HRTF , can get that data
> from the recording (which sounds very difficult) and convert to
> ambisonics/whatever - would love to be wrong though!
>
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 13:55, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
>
>> I have a "back to the basics" question.
>>
>> For a simple project I planned to record in FOA or HOA, but the final
>> render would be in simple quad (horizontal). So I don't need a lot of
>> resolution. I enjoy recording with binaural microphones (the kind that
>> looks like cheap earbuds), so I can record continuously without being
>> noticed.
>>
>> So I wondered; is there a method to "convert" binaural to
>> horizontal-only FOA? Apparently there is:
>>
>> https://www.ambisonic.net/quaduhj.html
>>
>> http://www.ambisonic.net/ambimix.html
>>
>> I guess my question is: what would be the software equivalent of a
>> pan-rotate device?
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
> --
> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
>
>
>

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Re: [Sursound] binaural to FOA?

[Augustine Leudar]

I'm, not sure there would be Marc - I can see how it easy enough to convert
in software ambisonics to binaural by convolving with HRTFs and potentially
the other way round too if you used the same software that was convolving
HRTFS to output Ambisonics (or even plain old quad) but a recording with
your own personal HRTFs on it ? I cant see how  - unless theres some super
software that has your personal HRTF , can get that data from the recording
(which sounds very difficult) and convert to ambisonics/whatever - would
love to be wrong though!

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 13:55, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> I have a "back to the basics" question.
>
> For a simple project I planned to record in FOA or HOA, but the final
> render would be in simple quad (horizontal). So I don't need a lot of
> resolution. I enjoy recording with binaural microphones (the kind that
> looks like cheap earbuds), so I can record continuously without being
> noticed.
>
> So I wondered; is there a method to "convert" binaural to
> horizontal-only FOA? Apparently there is:
>
> https://www.ambisonic.net/quaduhj.html
>
> http://www.ambisonic.net/ambimix.html
>
> I guess my question is: what would be the software equivalent of a
> pan-rotate device?
>
> Marc
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


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Re: [Sursound] DBADP

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks both David and Richard for posting this. As Richard knows I use
something akin to DBAP a lot in my installations and am always keen on
seeing ways of improving panning between speakers that are far apart in
irregular arrays etc. I will be reading your papers over the coming weeks
and following your research closely. I'm always up for beta testing
software too!!
All the best
Gus

On Sunday, 15 November 2020, Richard Foss  wrote:

>
> Thanks for the delta stereophony history Dave, interesting!
>
> > Current products do not allow progress to true Delta Stereophony (DBADP)
>
>
> Well conceptually it should be possible if, beyond aux mixes, you have a
> further layer of mixes that can comprise aux bus sends (with controllable
> delays/filtering/volumes) as well as input channels. A possible problem is
> not having sufficiently small delay increments, and not having smoothing
> within the device. Anyway, its worth doing some experimentation!
> Implementing DBAP or VBAP is fine.
>
> > DSP chips are now capable of providing it
>
>
> Yes, there is a Sharc DSP in the miniDSP speakers we use, and a
> controllable 32x2 matrix with delays/attenuation at the cross points.
>
> As you say, running Spat and a DAW is processor intensive. This was one of
> the reasons we have turned to using the processors in current devices to do
> the post-render mixing/delays. Having this capability in a speaker is
> great, because your processing capability grows with each speaker. Having
> it in an audio interface/mixing desk means that all the inputs -
> analog/usb/ADAT/… can have spatialisation applied to them.
>
> > On 15 Nov 2020, at 13:56, Dave Hunt 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Richard,
> >
> > I’ve changed the title of this topic to something more relevant.
> >
> > I still prefer the term Delta Stereophony to describe this. It seems to
> date back to the mid 1980’s, and was described by Gerhard Steinke and
> Wolfgang Ahnert. They were working in East Germany behind the Iron Curtain,
> reputedly working with Sinclair ZX Spectrum computers and expensive AKG
> delay lines somehow imported from Austria.
> >
> > It does make a great deal of sense. When digital delay lines became more
> generally available and affordable (1990’s ???) they were increasingly used
> in public address systems to improve coverage over a greater area, using
> speakers down the length of an auditorium to augment the usual left/right
> or LCR main frontal system. The feed to these was delayed by an amount that
> caused the time of arrival of sound from them to match that of the main
> frontal system . Sometimes the feed to a "front fill” system, arrayed along
> the front of the stage to increase clarity in the rows of seating near the
> stage, was also delayed to match the time of arrival of sound from its
> source. Amplitudes were usually adjusted by ear, as indeed were delay times
> after an initial calculation.
> >
> > These systems were more “appropriately distributed mono” than spatial.
> It is impossible to get the delay/amplitude combination correct for every
> position in the space with a finite number of speakers and output channels,
> so compromises are inevitable. This became common practice, especially for
> large scale stadium events. Digital mixing desks now commonly incorporate
> delays on each output, making this simpler to implement.
> >
> > Current products do not allow progress to true Delta Stereophony
> (DBADP), as the architecture does not provide delay as well as amplitude
> control on each matrix crosspoint, and the market doesn’t expect or demand
> it. DSP chips are now capable of providing it, as proved by TiMax, LISA,
> d’s Soundscape, Iosono , Astro, and Meyer’s relaunched system. The market
> is small, and the DSP boxes pricey. It becomes relatively more affordable
> for large multi-speaker systems with large budgets.
> >
> > For the rest of us, it’s down to software. Ircam have a basic
> implementation of DBAP in Spat~ for Max/MSP (or you can roll your own), and
> adding the delay component is relatively simple. You can then scale the
> amplitude and delay separately for each source, as seems appropriate. Using
> delay alone is surprisingly effective. The variation of amplitude between
> widely spaced speakers can be excessive.
> >
> > Of course you need a fast and powerful computer, and efficient
> programming to do this, but that is also true with any of the alternative
> algorithms (ambisonics, VBAP, DBAP, WFS etc.). None of these are perfect
> for every situation, and it is hard to envisage a combination of them that
> would work.
> >
> > Ciao,
> >
> > Dave Hunt
> >
> >
> >> On 14 Nov 2020, at 17:00, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Richard Foss 
> >> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Was: Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET
> >> Date: 14 November 2020 at 16:48:36 GMT
> >> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> >>
> >>
> >> Dave, I have meant to follow up on your message  for some time, because
> your ideas match what I am 

[Sursound] build in speakers

[Augustine Leudar]

Stuff I've done I've used those  speakers (sometimes called exciter) and
the vibrate that surface so useful for things like this. They won't sound
as good as a genelec but they sound descent enough. I'd use the big heavy
duty ones. I've a contact to get the hi end ones I can dig out if your
interested. Avoid dayton.

On Friday, 13 November 2020, David McKevy  wrote:

> Hi Soren
> My 2 cents:
> -shouldn't be a problem embedding a wooden speaker encasement with speaker,
> inside pretend stone jutting out from your wall here and there?
> Jutting out effect is made with paper mache or plaster of Paris covering
> the speaker box... and have the front (the part of the speaker the audience
> may see) covered with speaker cloth..
> You may want to stain or change the color of the cloth so obviously acrylic
> won't do for that, or anything that may stiffen that fabric, so stain it
> with dye (i.e. dye for tie-dye) if must discolor it.
> -you can play with using the stone backdrop as the rear of the speaker, so
> that the speaker with casing is fixed to the fake wall, (so, before the
> speaker with casing is fixed to it, the back of it is open  to reduce
> weight and strain on your wall.
> And here is where you'd have to trouble shoot the acoustics way more than
> the speaker cloth covering it for visual aesthetic.
> -embed speaker stands in the wall like how rebar is embedded in concrete in
> construction
>
> D McK
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:21 AM Søren Bendixen 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> > I´m doing a lot of sound design for different museums and the museum uses
> > mainly Genelecs, different models (the Dante suited ones mostly). In the
> > current exhibition we have 57 speakers.
> > they sound good, distributes the sound fine, but they look like..speakers
> > and take up the space like speakers.
> >
> > And the designer of the exhibitions (and the soundesigner) doesn´t like a
> > modern looking speaker in the middle of set up about a neanderthal.
> > The speakers end up being placed "out of sight" - 3,5 - 4 meter above
> > ground, sometimes a combi of this high and on the floor.
> >
> > So If I want a group of Mammoths walking through the wood, they walk 4
> > meters up (and suddenly on the ground and up again) - so I don´t do the
> > walk...
> > Sometimes we want a projection on a large stone (build of wood and stuff)
> > to speak directly to the the viewer/listener, but the speaker hangs from
> > the ceiling - 3 meters up...
> >
> > In rare occasion we are allowed to build in the Genelecs and after
> > calibration it ended up sounding really good. (eight Genelec´s pointing
> > outwards in a circle, playing stereo (aka 4 stereo set ups)
> >
> > A lot of you guyes have probably experienced the same challenges. And
> like
> > me been searching the marked for build in possibilities
> > But I cannot find anything that both sound good and is build in capable
> > (or just "out of sight").
> > Where should I look?
> > any experience to share?
> > pros and cons?
> >
> > I know there are "laws and order" regarding how a speaker needs to be
> > build to make a sound (a good one)
> > and I´m talking to some technical guys about why not event a speaker that
> > uses the thing it is buid into as the sound chamber.
> > Of course in conjunction with some calibration.
> > So you have "the gut" of the speaker and uses (in this case) the Stone as
> > a chamber.
> > Anyone ever tried that?
> >
> > Another thing is how to cover up the speaker diaphragm/membrane, the we
> > don´t eat up the frequencies.
> >
> > Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
> >
> > Søren Bendixen
> > Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist
> >
> > Company: Audiotect
> >
> > Radio Audiotect: Is closed atm.
> >
> >
> >
> > Latest Music and Sounddesign
> >
> > Neanderthal - In the Land of the Mammoth Hunters -17 nov 2020 - summer
> 2021
> > Moesgaard Museum special exhibition
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920
> >
> >
> >
> > -- next part --
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> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, 

Re: [Sursound] good 3d sound outdoors

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Anders
Most of my installations are outdoors and on a large scale (or sometimes
miniature scale) You can read a review of one here which covered 6 acres:

http://www.augustineleudar.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/legible.jpg

And you can see lots of other examples on my website. If you have any
specific queries feel free to PM me. The type of spatialisation you could
use really depends on the site, source material etc
Best
Gus

On Friday, 13 November 2020,  wrote:

> Some questions to all those experienced with outdoor 3d sound events.
>
> We're planning a series of outdoor events containing playback of 3d
> sound, Ambisonics coded or otherwise.
>
> Although my feeling tells me there shouldn't be any real difference from
> indoor events, I'd like to ask you: have you experienced any special or
> general issues, considerations etc. to be aware of vs. preparing and
> playing outdoor events?
>
> I'm mostly interested in the 'acoustic' part of things, like structure
> of speaker rig, solutions or approaches working well with special
> acoustics outdoors, perhaps considerations vs. mastering, what works
> well, not so well (because of the outdoors situation) etc.
>
> Various problems vs. choice of hardware, maintaining gear in outdoors
> conditions etc. - although ultimately important, and interesting as well
> - are probably easier to isolate and find solutions to.
>
> Pointers/links to outdoors concert series or installations - especially
> if they come with any comments, reflections, critics etc. - are of
> course interesting.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -anders
>
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
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Business website: www.magikdoor.net
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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Haha fair play lad - remember we have had long conversations about VBAP
already in private  years ago .
anyway take care and shame you are not the same Stefan, I really must get
away from this dreadful internet

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 14:05, Stefan Schreiber 
wrote:

>
>
>
> Ok, Augustine, I think we have come a lot closer. And there is
> actually no language barrier...
>
>
> I tried to explain that you can use VBAP for (stereophonic)
> formatconversion.
>
> Steinberg: I have no relationship whatsoever with this company.
> However, you are not the only one who thinks that I am working for
> them...
>
> (https://de.linkedin.com/in/schreiberstefan
>
> is NOT me. AFAIK 路‍♂️ )
>
>
> I think it would be a great idea to integrate DPAP into their products.
> Best to directly write to them, I guess.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Stefan (the guy who is NOT Steinberg)
>
>
> P.S.: This doesn’t go on like this. Either he or me has to change the
> name now... 類
>
>
> - - -
>
>
>
> > I think perhaps Stefan there is a language barrier or problem with
> > communication here ?
> >
> > Your exact words were ""*It is important to see that every position is
> > panned to 2 speakers in *
> > *2D, and (usually) 3 speakers in 3D.*"
> > You didn't refer to mono - but I did refer to "one" channel being spread
> > over several speakers sounding crap (or blurring spatialisation) to which
> > you replied this was wrong because its how millions of records were made
> -
> > - of course I believe you know what were stereo is and were referring to
> > panning one sound source (eg a trumpet)  across two speakers as in
> > stereophonic panning -  "one soundsource" being different to "one
> channel"
> > - thus the confusion?
> > Yes I know what VBAP is - I literally said it uses triangles in my last
> > post and that I've used it for 15 years, VBAP is great - I do mix it with
> > ambisonics sometimes though.
> > As for upmixing stereo to 5.1 - I agree with you about leaving the front
> > left and right intact if you *HAVE* to do it - all I was saying is
> upmixing
> > stereo to 5.1 is never going to be as good as actually having a 5.1 mix
> to
> > start with all six discrete channels created from the beginning uising a
> > surround sound panner .(yes I know about the LFE).
> > By the way - you work for Steinbergs marketing department right? If you
> are
> > the same Stefan - will you PLEASE try and get them to incorporate some
> kind
> > of DBAP (Distance Based Amplitude Panning)  or similar into Nuendo?
> > Basically, it would be great if you could draw speaker maps/position the
> > speakers in the panner by dragging and dropping them to different
> positions
> > (so then you could use really irregular arrays). For example, if I wanted
> > to pan sounds corridors in a labyrinth or maze (which I have done
> before),
> > or have a circle within a circle etc etc this would be a great feature
> and
> > would definitely give it an edge over competitors like reaper. Ive been
> > told you can do this in Pyramix but never seen it - but I have to do it
> in
> > Max MSP at the moment or use Nuendos panners in ways they werent meant to
> > be used. It would also be handy to adjust the directivity of
> soundsources.
> >
> > On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 11:53, Stefan Schreiber 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > I should add diffusion can use one channel successfully over several
> >> > speakers for creative effect - but her eIm talking about the accuracy
> of
> >> > panning, point sources etc
> >>
> >> So I tried to accurately describe how panning is done... 
> >>
> >> Stefan
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 09:32, Augustine Leudar <
> >> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Stefan -  I think we may be getting crossed wires here (pun not
> >> intended)
> >> >>
> >> >> Me: *“one channel over several speakers sounds crap”*
> >> >> "
> >> >> You:  *"*
> >> >> *I would say your statement is just wrong.  We are following normal
> >> >> panning rules, which are proven in millions of *
> >> >> *recordings."*
> >> >>
> >> >> Stereo recordings have two channels, not one - unless you're
> referring
> >> to
> >> >> mo

Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

I think perhaps Stefan there is a language barrier or problem with
communication here ?

Your exact words were ""*It is important to see that every position is
panned to 2 speakers in *
*2D, and (usually) 3 speakers in 3D.*"
You didn't refer to mono - but I did refer to "one" channel being spread
over several speakers sounding crap (or blurring spatialisation) to which
you replied this was wrong because its how millions of records were made -
- of course I believe you know what were stereo is and were referring to
panning one sound source (eg a trumpet)  across two speakers as in
stereophonic panning -  "one soundsource" being different to "one channel"
- thus the confusion?
Yes I know what VBAP is - I literally said it uses triangles in my last
post and that I've used it for 15 years, VBAP is great - I do mix it with
ambisonics sometimes though.
As for upmixing stereo to 5.1 - I agree with you about leaving the front
left and right intact if you *HAVE* to do it - all I was saying is upmixing
stereo to 5.1 is never going to be as good as actually having a 5.1 mix to
start with all six discrete channels created from the beginning uising a
surround sound panner .(yes I know about the LFE).
By the way - you work for Steinbergs marketing department right? If you are
the same Stefan - will you PLEASE try and get them to incorporate some kind
of DBAP (Distance Based Amplitude Panning)  or similar into Nuendo?
Basically, it would be great if you could draw speaker maps/position the
speakers in the panner by dragging and dropping them to different positions
(so then you could use really irregular arrays). For example, if I wanted
to pan sounds corridors in a labyrinth or maze (which I have done before),
or have a circle within a circle etc etc this would be a great feature and
would definitely give it an edge over competitors like reaper. Ive been
told you can do this in Pyramix but never seen it - but I have to do it in
Max MSP at the moment or use Nuendos panners in ways they werent meant to
be used. It would also be handy to adjust the directivity of soundsources.

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 11:53, Stefan Schreiber 
wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I should add diffusion can use one channel successfully over several
> > speakers for creative effect - but her eIm talking about the accuracy of
> > panning, point sources etc
>
> So I tried to accurately describe how panning is done... 
>
> Stefan
>
>
> >
> > On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 09:32, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Stefan -  I think we may be getting crossed wires here (pun not
> intended)
> >>
> >> Me: *“one channel over several speakers sounds crap”*
> >> "
> >> You:  *"*
> >> *I would say your statement is just wrong.  We are following normal
> >> panning rules, which are proven in millions of *
> >> *recordings."*
> >>
> >> Stereo recordings have two channels, not one - unless you're referring
> to
> >> mono which of course can sound  fine with one channel on two speakers -
> but
> >> has no panning whatsoever
> >> But perhaps you are not understanding what I am saying or perhaps you
> are
> >> trolling me :) You suggest "just trying VBAP - well I first "just tried
> >> VBAP" fifteen years ago and have used it in literally hundreds of
> >> installations since and much prefer it to ambisonics in 90 percent of
> >> situations.- I literally use it for work nearly every day and its cousin
> >> DBAP and other forms of amplitude panning, day in day out so I do hope
> you
> >> take the time to actually understand what I am trying to say otherwise I
> >> fear this may be wasted time for both of us .
> >>
> >> "*Stereo to 4 speakers: You can’t map stereo to positions which are out
> >> of the stereo front*."
> >>
> >> You can and people do - but it sounds crap - which was my point - people
> >> upmix a stereo file to 5.1 for example in post houses all the time
> there is
> >> a variety of ways they do this and you can read about them here :
> >>
> >> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-10546-3_28
> >>
> >> "*It is important to see that every position is panned to 2 speakers in
> *
> >> *2D, and (usually) 3 speakers in 3D.*"
> >> ? Yes and no - stereo is panned to positions in 2 speakers of course
> >> but I would think more carefully about what 2D and 3D actually mean
> ...
> >> technically speaking - 3D just refers to 3 dimensions. 3D could refer
> to a
> >> million speakers, so could 2D actu

Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

I should add diffusion can use one channel successfully over several
speakers for creative effect - but her eIm talking about the accuracy of
panning, point sources etc

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 09:32, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Stefan -  I think we may be getting crossed wires here (pun not intended)
>
> Me: *“one channel over several speakers sounds crap”*
> "
> You:  *"*
> *I would say your statement is just wrong.  We are following normal
> panning rules, which are proven in millions of *
> *recordings."*
>
> Stereo recordings have two channels, not one - unless you're referring to
> mono which of course can sound  fine with one channel on two speakers - but
> has no panning whatsoever
> But perhaps you are not understanding what I am saying or perhaps you are
> trolling me :) You suggest "just trying VBAP - well I first "just tried
> VBAP" fifteen years ago and have used it in literally hundreds of
> installations since and much prefer it to ambisonics in 90 percent of
> situations.- I literally use it for work nearly every day and its cousin
> DBAP and other forms of amplitude panning, day in day out so I do hope you
> take the time to actually understand what I am trying to say otherwise I
> fear this may be wasted time for both of us .
>
> "*Stereo to 4 speakers: You can’t map stereo to positions which are out
> of the stereo front*."
>
> You can and people do - but it sounds crap - which was my point - people
> upmix a stereo file to 5.1 for example in post houses all the time there is
> a variety of ways they do this and you can read about them here :
>
> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-10546-3_28
>
> "*It is important to see that every position is panned to 2 speakers in *
> *2D, and (usually) 3 speakers in 3D.*"
> ? Yes and no - stereo is panned to positions in 2 speakers of course
> but I would think more carefully about what 2D and 3D actually mean ...
> technically speaking - 3D just refers to 3 dimensions. 3D could refer to a
> million speakers, so could 2D actually. It's very rare for any kind of
> spatial audio to be rendered over 3 speakers though it happens. Whilst I
> know simple surround systems are referred to as 3D In reality the whole
> thing is a misnomer, 3D should include height and proximity. So a point
> source (1 speaker ) should be called 0D, Stereo should be called 1D - a
> line - quad/5.1 octaphonic/3 speakers you refer to should be called 2D as
> its just a flat surface- from then on we include height - Ambisonics when
> rendered with height, should, in my opinion, should be called 2.5 D as it
> cant really create proximity properly - aka sounds coming close to you.
> True 3D audio, where a sound can be anywhere in 3D space including sounds
> that come right up close to you can only be created by DBAP in my
> experience,  or other amplitude panning and perhaps binaural (not heard
> this convincingly yet)  though Matt Montags WFS with height system might be
> able to do it. More on the definition of dimensions :
>
> https://gadgetsthink.com/what-is-dimension-full-explained-1d-2d-3d-4d-etc/
>
> You could argue you could add height to 3 (or even 2 or 1) speakers using
> psychoacoustic effects , directional bands etc making it 3D - or you could
> stick one speaker up a lampost for height  - but that's another can of
> worms.  Recent "developments" in 4D, 8D audio etc etc are just marketing
> gimmicks.
>
> Anyway, - I am not talking about ambisonics or object-based panning (and
> yes object-based panning systems such as Atmos use amplitude panning in a
> system similar to VBAP but instead of a triangle of speakers uses a
> rectangular tesselation :
> https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2016210174A1/en) .
>  I am talking for want of a better expression amplitude panning and also
> the Scheoops type system at the beginning of this thread.
> Lets me try and explain things as clearly as possible.
> IF I have a stereo file in which a bird flies from one speaker to another
> and I simply "upmix" this stereo file by doubling it onto a quad array then
> the bird will be flying from the front left to the front right speaker AND
> the back left to the back right speaker - which willl sound crap, or at
> least not usually the desired effect .  So in the example of the Scheops
> setup - you have 8 hypercardioid speakers point to the 8 corners of the
> cube - each one of those channels is meant to go go to ONE speaker of a
> cube array. Ie each one of those mics and speakers covers one corner or an
> eighth of the 3D sound field. Let's go back to the bird. Say I have a bird
> happily staying in the top right speaker of my octaphonic cube as was
> recorded th

Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

ave upmixed all speakers, the further apart
the speakers are the worse it will be.  For me this kind of thing is
crucially important as I do walkaround installations that cannot have a
"sweet spot".So upmixing presents a problem for this type of 3D audio
recordings - and perhaps less so for ambisonics. Now downmixing with this
kind of recordings and composition actually works quite well and I have
tried it many times when I've needed to send a rough mix to prospective
clients and I am left with the daunting task of downmixing a 28 channel
installation to a stereo file - you have to be very selective about which
channels you use and the perspective of the listener. Funnily enough the
stereo recordings I have downmixed from quad and octaphonic recordings
sound strangely spacious. I hope this makes my point of view clear - it is
quite simple and based on years of experience and research and is quite
practical - things have to work or I don't get gigs and the public response
is not good simple as that.
Delightful as this conversation is I have to get back to work and will be
offline for a bit - I bid you good day sir.

On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 01:34, Stefan Schreiber 
wrote:

>
> Stereo to 4 speakers: You can’t map stereo to positions which are out
> of the stereo front.
>
> Octomic to 20 speakers: Should actually (and does) work, via simple
> panning.
>
> It is important to see that every position is panned to 2 speakers in
> 2D, and (usually) 3 speakers in 3D.
> (If speakers should stay empty I don’t see any problem.)
>
> “one channel over several speakers sounds crap”
>
> We are following normal panning rules, which are proven in millions of
> recordings. So I would say your statement is just wrong.
>
> You don’t spread “8 speakers over 20 speakers” in some statistical
> ways, if that is what you meant.
> So I just have suggested to “try” VBAP, obtaining some very reasonable
> (and proven) results.
>
> Object and speaker panning is not very different, by the way.
> (You can see the speakers also as objects. )
>
>
> Best,
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Mensagem de Augustine Leudar  -
> Data: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 23:21:50 +0100
> De: Augustine Leudar 
> Assunto: Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET
> Para: Surround Sound discussion group 
>
>
>
> > I refer to mapping, for example, a stereo file to 4 speakers, an
> octophonic
> > to 20 speakers etc - one channel over several speakers sounds crap - so,
> > for example, the bird that should be a point source coming out of one
> > speaker is now coming  of three menaing th ebird i s no longer a point
> > source etc etc - the same goes for panning so yes horribly blurred - Im
> not
> > talking about objects
> >
> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 13:44, Stefan Schreiber 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> You < can > remap stereophonic recordings, via simple panning.
> >>
> >> Are audio objects “horribly blurred” if you render them? Don’t think
> >> so...;-)
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Stefan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - Mensagem de Augustine Leudar 
> -
> >> Data: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:33:34 +0100
> >> De: Augustine Leudar 
> >> Assunto: Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET
> >> Para: Surround Sound discussion group 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > you can also get reasonably nice downmixes to quad and stereo by
> >> combining
> >> > channels as well . However, the problem with Scheops type systemsI
> see is
> >> > upmixing rather than downmixing. YOur basically spreadinge signal over
> >> > several speakers when you do that which blurs localisation horrible-
> and
> >> > this is where ambisonics should, theoretically, have an advantage.
> >> >
> >> > <
> >>
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon
> >> >
> >> > Virus-free.
> >> > www.avast.com
> >> > <
> >>
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link
> >> >
> >> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 at 16:32, Fons Adriaensen 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 12:36:38PM +0100, jack reynolds wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > The only problem with using ambisonics mics is the high frequency
> >> limit
> >> &g

Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

I refer to mapping, for example, a stereo file to 4 speakers, an octophonic
to 20 speakers etc - one channel over several speakers sounds crap - so,
for example, the bird that should be a point source coming out of one
speaker is now coming  of three menaing th ebird i s no longer a point
source etc etc - the same goes for panning so yes horribly blurred - Im not
talking about objects

On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 at 13:44, Stefan Schreiber 
wrote:

>
> You < can > remap stereophonic recordings, via simple panning.
>
> Are audio objects “horribly blurred” if you render them? Don’t think
> so...;-)
>
> Best,
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Mensagem de Augustine Leudar  -----
> Data: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:33:34 +0100
> De: Augustine Leudar 
> Assunto: Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET
> Para: Surround Sound discussion group 
>
>
>
> > you can also get reasonably nice downmixes to quad and stereo by
> combining
> > channels as well . However, the problem with Scheops type systemsI see is
> > upmixing rather than downmixing. YOur basically spreadinge signal over
> > several speakers when you do that which blurs localisation horrible- and
> > this is where ambisonics should, theoretically, have an advantage.
> >
> > <
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon
> >
> > Virus-free.
> > www.avast.com
> > <
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link
> >
> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 at 16:32, Fons Adriaensen 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 12:36:38PM +0100, jack reynolds wrote:
> >>
> >> > The only problem with using ambisonics mics is the high frequency
> limit
> >> > above which they stop working properly. A second order ambi mic
> reduces
> >> > this problem, but above about 7Khz the not quite coincident capsules
> >> > becomes a problem.
> >>
> >> First order responses from an OctoMic are near perfect up to 11 kHz or
> so,
> >> and not perfect but still very usable even at 15 kHz. I doubt very much
> >> if there is any 'real' cardioid' doing better at that frequency and
> above.
> >> Certainly not if you take diffraction / reflection from the mic body and
> >> clamp into account.
> >>
> >> Anyway, have you ever considered the sort of frequency and polar
> response
> >> you get by combining signals from capsules spaced more than 10 cm apart
> ?
> >> You'll find they look quite horrible if you care to compute or measure
> >> them.
> >>
> >> You could of course object that those should never be combined, just
> each
> >> one sent to its own speaker. But that would mean that such a one to one
> >> mapping is the only possible way to use such signals if you want to
> >> preserve
> >> sound quality. No downmixing or anything similar (e.g. binaural)
> allowed.
> >>
> >> But we all know that this is not true, we all have heard very nice music
> >> recordings done with spaced mics. Even those in theory horrible
> frequency
> >> or polar responses resulting from spaced mics can sound quite well. Wich
> >> in turn means that this whole 'imperfect polar responses' debate is
> mostly
> >> academic if not irrelevant.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ciao,
> >>
> >> --
> >> FA
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Sursound mailing list
> >> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> >> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> > Business website: www.magikdoor.net
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> > ___
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> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> - Fim da mensagem de Augustine Leudar 
> -
>
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

 you can also get reasonably nice downmixes to quad and stereo by combining
channels as well . However, the problem with Scheops type systemsI see is
upmixing rather than downmixing. YOur basically spreadinge signal over
several speakers when you do that which blurs localisation horrible- and
this is where ambisonics should, theoretically, have an advantage.


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 at 16:32, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 12:36:38PM +0100, jack reynolds wrote:
>
> > The only problem with using ambisonics mics is the high frequency limit
> > above which they stop working properly. A second order ambi mic reduces
> > this problem, but above about 7Khz the not quite coincident capsules
> > becomes a problem.
>
> First order responses from an OctoMic are near perfect up to 11 kHz or so,
> and not perfect but still very usable even at 15 kHz. I doubt very much
> if there is any 'real' cardioid' doing better at that frequency and above.
> Certainly not if you take diffraction / reflection from the mic body and
> clamp into account.
>
> Anyway, have you ever considered the sort of frequency and polar response
> you get by combining signals from capsules spaced more than 10 cm apart ?
> You'll find they look quite horrible if you care to compute or measure
> them.
>
> You could of course object that those should never be combined, just each
> one sent to its own speaker. But that would mean that such a one to one
> mapping is the only possible way to use such signals if you want to
> preserve
> sound quality. No downmixing or anything similar (e.g. binaural) allowed.
>
> But we all know that this is not true, we all have heard very nice music
> recordings done with spaced mics. Even those in theory horrible frequency
> or polar responses resulting from spaced mics can sound quite well. Wich
> in turn means that this whole 'imperfect polar responses' debate is mostly
> academic if not irrelevant.
>
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

>
> You could of course object that those should never be combined, just each
> one sent to its own speaker. But that would mean that such a one to one
> mapping is the only possible way to use such signals if you want to
> preserve
> sound quality. No downmixing or anything similar (e.g. binaural) allowed.
>
>
This is not the case - you just put the hrtf for each speaker position on
that track for the binaural remder


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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

This is an especially annoying problem when you consider hi frequencies are
what we localise best

On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 at 12:37, jack reynolds 
wrote:

> The only problem with using ambisonics mics is the high frequency limit
> above which they stop working properly. A second order ambi mic reduces
> this problem, but above about 7Khz the not quite coincident capsules
> becomes a problem.
>
> J
>
> On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 at 11:36, Steven Boardman 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > What makes you think that ORTF captures
> > > 'a small 8th of a sphere' ??
> >
> > I don’t..
> >
> > Maybe I wasn’t clear. What I meant was replacing each ORTF capsule (or
> M/S
> > pair) with an ambisonic mic, and decoding for the direction it should
> point.
> > All spaced array setups can use ambisonic mics, as they can output all
> the
> > polar patterns required.
> > My point was; the polar patterns would be more accurate (for a calibrated
> > mic) and hence the spatial accuracy better.
> > So yes exactly that.
> >
> > Thanks for making it clearer :)
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > >
> > > Sorry, this doesn't make any sense... A decoder doesn't give 'spherical
> > > coordinates', it outputs signals. What makes you think that ORTF
> captures
> > > 'a small 8th of a sphere' ??
> > >
> > > Each Ambisonic mic, by suitable combination of its capsule signals [1],
> > > can provide the same signals as any number of conventional capsules
> > > (omni, cardioid, fig-of-eight,...) placed at the same point in space
> > > and in any direction.
> > >
> > > So you can always replace every group of (nearly) coincident
> conventional
> > > capsules (e.g. an M/S pair) by an Ambisonic one and get exactly the
> same
> > > signals.
> > >
> > > If you use a higher order AMB mic (e.g. an OctoMic) you can even get
> > > polar patterns for which no conventional capsule equivalent exists, and
> > > which certainly provide an advantage for surround.
> > >
> > > That's all there is to it.
> > >
> > >
> > > [1] This involves some filtering as well as just summing/subtracting
> > > signals, and for good reults it requires calibration of the AMB mic's
> > > capsules. If you experimented with Ambisonics in the way you pointed
> > > out, it's no surprise you got bad results.
> > >
> > > As I've stated a number of times before, there is *a lot* of completely
> > > bogus information on Ambisonics technology floating around. Some of
> this
> > > stuff is at the same level of intellectual integrity as e.g. flat-earth
> > > theories. Most of it is just the results of failing to understand basic
> > > things, or of simplifying things to the point that whatever remains is
> > > 'not even wrong'. Combine that with some people having their own
> agenda.
> > >
> > > Ciao,
> > >
> > > --
> > > FA
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Sursound mailing list
> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
> > ___
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> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
>
>
> --
>
> 07889727365
>
> 02036861372
>
> 3 Swimmers Lane
> Haggerston
> London
> E2 8FR
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

"Sorry, this doesn't make any sense... A decoder doesn't give 'spherical
coordinates', it outputs signals. What makes you think that ORTF captures
'a small 8th of a sphere' ??"

Ummm - because it has 8 super cardioid microphones pointing in eight
different directions each of which corresponds to one speaker in an
octaphonic cube array and requires no decoding ? And because I've read this
paper :

https://schoeps.de/fileadmin/user_upload/user_upload/Wittek_AES_3D_24.05.2018_web.pdf

and because I phoned to Scheops to confirm my understanding of their system
was correct and they confirmed it was . Plus I've spent years discussing
the development of this kind of thing with people whos research has
contributed to the development of this and other similar systems ? This
short video explains it quite well too :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-ktLM0dQeA=PLRqzOEeUQ2l91Gt-d7a2-wDpp6JTwWD4W=2_channel=SCHOEPSMikrofone

  When I say sphere - Im talking about a cube really but when you consider
phantom sources this cube obviously could be considered as a 360 degree
solution - aka a sphere .
I hope we are not getting crossed wires here- I am talking about this
system :

https://schoeps.de/en/products/surround-3d/ortf-3d/ortf-3d-outdoor-set.html

Yes I know A format puts out signals (seeing as I did actually bother to
make one)  - by spherical coordinates I mean the A format converted to B
perhaps my phrasing is incorrect - but Im pretty sure the summing I used
was correct..
Also I didnt say I got bad results - the ambisonic mic I made was
callibrated, each capsule painstakingly , and was actually OK, no
soundfield but OK for a DIY project-  I quite liked the results as did
others - I'm just saying other techniques have given me better results than
ambisonics. My opinion of ambisonics is not based on my DIY microphone  -
You have to bear in mind that during my time at the Sonic Arts Research
Centre (7 years) I heard literally hundreds of ambisonics compositions,
installations and recordings  made by many  different researchers and
composers using all sorts of different hi end Ambisonics mics  and on some
of the best speakers in the world, and since then I have been working
exclusively in the field of spatial audio -  so my view is not uninformed
nor am I alone in my opinions in the industry.  I (and many others I might
add) found the imaging to be quite poor with Ambisonics, even at high
orders,  in many situations. This led many of us to look for different
solutions and is the reason Shchoeps have adopted this approach. . A lot of
composers and researchers have reached similar conclusions but often felt
they couldnt really voice this openly as it would offend the Ambisonics
researchers. whislt I can understand if youve dedicated your life to
ambisonics this would be an irritating view, but let me be clear - I use
ambisonics and find it useful especially at the moment and the way you can
send one file round the world and decode it to different arrays etc and see
it as a useful tool and I have many colleagues and friends who have worked
on it  - but I have found  far better ways of creating 3D soundscape for
installations .
I actually wrote a paper on a related approach to  this years ago and
although looking back on it I can see some errors - some of the ideas in
this paper are now being developed by others, and Im sure people have been
doing this for years but I never found much on it  :

http://divergencepress.net/2014/12/01/2016-11-20-an-alternative-approach-to-3d-audio-recording-and-reproduction/







On Thursday, 22 October 2020, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 02:37:39PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
> > So if you
> > had say, 8 ambisonics mics pointed in 8 different directions ,in order to
> > record that small 8th of  a sphere (or in this case cube) in the
> direction
> > they are pointed in (which is what the ORTF does)  - how would this work
> if
> > the decoder if a format gives spherical coordinates rather than an 8th
> of a
> > sphere/cube (hope this makes sense), and with the capsules pointing in
> all
> > directions... ?
>
> Sorry, this doesn't make any sense... A decoder doesn't give 'spherical
> coordinates', it outputs signals. What makes you think that ORTF captures
> 'a small 8th of a sphere' ??
>
> Each Ambisonic mic, by suitable combination of its capsule signals [1],
> can provide the same signals as any number of conventional capsules
> (omni, cardioid, fig-of-eight,...) placed at the same point in space
> and in any direction.
>
> So you can always replace every group of (nearly) coincident conventional
> capsules (e.g. an M/S pair) by an Ambisonic one and get exactly the same
> signals.
>
> If you use a higher order AMB mic (e.g. an OctoMic) you can even get
> polar patterns for which no conventional capsule equivalent exists, and
> which certainly

Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Im assuming the answer to this will be in the decoding ?

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 14:37, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Hi Steve,
> An interesting proposal. You'll excuse perhaps my misunderstanding here,
> but my understanding was that ambisonics A format consists of a omni plus
> x,y,z to give 4 signals that are then converted to b format . I built my
> own ambisonics mic and decoder once a long time ago so perhaps things have
> changed, I think I put Left + & - right = x Front + & - Back = y Top + & -
> bottom = z All summed * 0.257 = w into my decoder.  . Anyway I digress -
> this basically will give you a sounds position in 3D space , or at least on
> the surface of a sphere proximity not being so well recreated. So if you
> had say, 8 ambisonics mics pointed in 8 different directions ,in order to
> record that small 8th of  a sphere (or in this case cube) in the direction
> they are pointed in (which is what the ORTF does)  - how would this work if
> the decoder if a format gives spherical coordinates rather than an 8th of a
> sphere/cube (hope this makes sense), and with the capsules pointing in all
> directions... ?
> cheers
> Gus
>
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 11:43, Steven Boardman 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gus
>>
>> For even better polar pattern control, you could use ambisonic mics in an
>> ORTF.
>> Schoeps won’t have better polar patterns than a well calibrated ambisonic
>> mic. So in theory the ORTF array would produce a better spatial image.
>> If you have enough channels and your budget is good, why not use 8
>> ambisonic mics?
>> Or if you used something like Harpex, maybe you could synthesise spaced
>> pairs and only use 4…
>> You would still be below Schoeps ORTF budget as well….:)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 10:05, Augustine Leudar 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Justin
>> > Because it doesnt use ambisonics and instead uses a kind of recording
>> that
>> > I've been trying to develop for years which should mean there is no or
>> at
>> > least a much reduced sweets spot and better localisation
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, 21 October 2020, Justin Bennett 
>> wrote:
>>
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
> --
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>
>
>

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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Steve,
An interesting proposal. You'll excuse perhaps my misunderstanding here,
but my understanding was that ambisonics A format consists of a omni plus
x,y,z to give 4 signals that are then converted to b format . I built my
own ambisonics mic and decoder once a long time ago so perhaps things have
changed, I think I put Left + & - right = x Front + & - Back = y Top + & -
bottom = z All summed * 0.257 = w into my decoder.  . Anyway I digress -
this basically will give you a sounds position in 3D space , or at least on
the surface of a sphere proximity not being so well recreated. So if you
had say, 8 ambisonics mics pointed in 8 different directions ,in order to
record that small 8th of  a sphere (or in this case cube) in the direction
they are pointed in (which is what the ORTF does)  - how would this work if
the decoder if a format gives spherical coordinates rather than an 8th of a
sphere/cube (hope this makes sense), and with the capsules pointing in all
directions... ?
cheers
Gus

On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 11:43, Steven Boardman 
wrote:

> Hi Gus
>
> For even better polar pattern control, you could use ambisonic mics in an
> ORTF.
> Schoeps won’t have better polar patterns than a well calibrated ambisonic
> mic. So in theory the ORTF array would produce a better spatial image.
> If you have enough channels and your budget is good, why not use 8
> ambisonic mics?
> Or if you used something like Harpex, maybe you could synthesise spaced
> pairs and only use 4…
> You would still be below Schoeps ORTF budget as well….:)
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 10:05, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Justin
> > Because it doesnt use ambisonics and instead uses a kind of recording
> that
> > I've been trying to develop for years which should mean there is no or at
> > least a much reduced sweets spot and better localisation
> >
> > On Wednesday, 21 October 2020, Justin Bennett 
> wrote:
>
> ___
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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Justin
Because it doesnt use ambisonics and instead uses a kind of recording that
I've been trying to develop for years which should mean there is no or at
least a much reduced sweets spot and better localisation

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020, Justin Bennett  wrote:

> Hi Gus,
>
> I would definitely trust the Sound Devices, particularly the 788 series
> for work in rugged conditions
>
> The Zylia would need its dedicated recorder, otherwise you have to
> use a laptop (it connects with USB). It’s definitely an interesting mic
> but in terms of audio quality you can’t compare it to the Schoeps.
> I would think anything with prof connectors is going to be a better
> idea on a long trip. You can always solder the cables yourself if
> something breaks. No way you’d want to take a Zyllia to pieces!
>
> I’m curious why you’re thinking ORTF-3D and not a conventional
> soundfield (or octamic?) if you’re going to be hanging around
> the rainforest?
>
> best, Justin.
>
> > On 20 Oct 2020, at 18:00, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:12:45 +0100
> > From: Augustine Leudar 
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET
> > Message-ID:
> >gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Ha - theres no way I could afford it for myself its for a grant
> application
> > Im doing. My use for it would be in the Amazon making wildlife recordings
> > for various purposes.
> > I have also been interested in the Zyla 3rd order microphone don't know
> if
> > anyone's tried that ? Its certainly cheaper but its ambisonics so
> slightly
> > different
> >
> > On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 20:57, Steven Boardman  >
> > wrote:
>
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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks Ulf good to know.

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020, Ulf A. S. Holbrook  wrote:

> Hi Gus,
>
> from what I have heard from Zylia-owners is that it is very sensitive to
> humidity, so a rainforest scenario should be a no go. The same for
> Schoeps mics as well. If you're recording in ORTF, then Sennheiser mics
> are very good for humid conditions.
>
> Best,
>
> /u.
>
>
> On 21/10/2020 10:50, Justin Bennett wrote:
> > Hi Gus,
> >
> > I would definitely trust the Sound Devices, particularly the 788 series
> > for work in rugged conditions
> >
> > The Zylia would need its dedicated recorder, otherwise you have to
> > use a laptop (it connects with USB). It’s definitely an interesting mic
> > but in terms of audio quality you can’t compare it to the Schoeps.
> > I would think anything with prof connectors is going to be a better
> > idea on a long trip. You can always solder the cables yourself if
> > something breaks. No way you’d want to take a Zyllia to pieces!
> >
> > I’m curious why you’re thinking ORTF-3D and not a conventional
> > soundfield (or octamic?) if you’re going to be hanging around
> > the rainforest?
> >
> > best, Justin.
> >
> >> On 20 Oct 2020, at 18:00, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:
> >>
> >> Message: 7
> >> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:12:45 +0100
> >> From: Augustine Leudar 
> >> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> >> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET
> >> Message-ID:
> >>   gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> Ha - theres no way I could afford it for myself its for a grant
> application
> >> Im doing. My use for it would be in the Amazon making wildlife
> recordings
> >> for various purposes.
> >> I have also been interested in the Zyla 3rd order microphone don't know
> if
> >> anyone's tried that ? Its certainly cheaper but its ambisonics so
> slightly
> >> different
> >>
> >> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 20:57, Steven Boardman <
> boardroomout...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> > ___
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> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
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> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks Peter. Yes i lived ten years in the Amazon making 3D audio
recordings - humidity is indeed a problem. I've been looking at the Sonosax
unit - looks amazing but I didnt realise it needed an addon. I'm probably
not going to go for the ORTF right now as there's other things I want to
use the budget for - but I like th principle and I tried to design my own
thing like this once - I'm very much with Hynkook on these kinds of mic
arrays - I believe he inspired this design.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 at 20:20, peterson tooke  wrote:

> Late to your question but of course a lot depends on how much can you
> afford to spend… but as your Schoeps array is mighty pricey, that may not
> be an issue.
> Also
>
> As others have mentioned - at the lower end price-wise ( but not quality
> wise)  one option is the USA made Sound Devices MixPre 10ii. 8 very good
> preamps with XLR inputs, 32 bit recording (the ii version), battery
> powered, good headphone amp, solid build from a company renowned for its
> quality, especially in the film industry. However I am not sure how many
> channels can be ganged together on their MixPre10ii. My main quibble with
> the MixPre series - especially in situations where there are no 2nd takes -
> is that it records to a single SD card. While there is also a UBB thumb
> drive backup option, not quite the same thing as having simultaneous
> recording to another SD/CF card or internal SSD drive.
>
> They have a range of other recording / mixing devices with their new
> Scorpio currently at the very top with SSD internal drive plus 2x SD card
> recording…MUCH pricier but with many features you probably do not require…
> so check them out here - https://www.sounddevices.com <
> https://www.sounddevices.com/>
>
> Another choice, quite a bit more expensive, but considered to be among the
> absolute best in the world for its preamp quality is the Swiss made Sonosax
> SX-R4+, here: https://www.sonosax.ch/product/sx-r4p/ <
> https://www.sonosax.ch/product/sx-r4p/>. You would need to attach their
> add-on SX-AD+ in order to achieve the 8 preamps you require.
>
> You can find out a lot about what others in the recording ( mostly
> classical ) world think of these products by searching around on Gearlsutz
> / the remote possibilities forum. Of note is Tony Faulkner’s use of the
> MixPre10 & Hudson Fair’s high praise of the SX-R4+, both highly esteemed
> classical engineers…  link  here:
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-location-recording-amp-production/
> <
> https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-location-recording-amp-production/
> >
>
> All of this said - I know nothing about the Schoeps 3D ORTF array but I
> noticed that it is ‘heated’ , a defense against humidity no doubt,
> somethings you occsionally hear about Schoeps having problems with.
> However, I have used them without issue in the Venezuelan jungle and caves
> without issue, but never days on end in intense rain, something you might
> expect in the Amazon.
>
> Still, if I was heading off to some remote rain forest / jungle for such a
> big project I would have a back up plan - both recorder and mic array. A
> lot of field recordists swear by the Sennheiser RF mics in a DMS array for
> their resistance to humidity. And only 3 channels needed on the recorder,
> for which there are a lot of solid options. Lots of talk about this setup
> on Gearslutz as well.
>
> Good luck!
>
>
> cheers,
>
> Peter
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 2020, at 4:12 PM, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
> >
> > Ha - theres no way I could afford it for myself its for a grant
> application
> > Im doing. My use for it would be in the Amazon making wildlife recordings
> > for various purposes.
> > I have also been interested in the Zyla 3rd order microphone don't know
> if
> > anyone's tried that ? Its certainly cheaper but its ambisonics so
> slightly
> > different
> >
> > On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 20:57, Steven Boardman  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Can the 788 gang all preamps? Didn't think it could..
> >>
> >> Plus one for the zoom f8/n.
> >> Gangable, standard XLRs, good quality, affordable, small and versatile.
> >> You can even sync and word clock a load together, for loads of inputs!
> >> I have 3, and sync them all for 24 channels no problem.
> >> But as John said...
> >> If you are going to spend an basic annual salary on one set of mics,
> whats
> >> another 3 grand on another recorder and bespoke cables.
> >>
> >> Interested in what you are going to use it for Gus?
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 20:25 Jo

Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Ha - theres no way I could afford it for myself its for a grant application
Im doing. My use for it would be in the Amazon making wildlife recordings
for various purposes.
I have also been interested in the Zyla 3rd order microphone don't know if
anyone's tried that ? Its certainly cheaper but its ambisonics so slightly
different

On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 20:57, Steven Boardman 
wrote:

> Can the 788 gang all preamps? Didn't think it could..
>
> Plus one for the zoom f8/n.
> Gangable, standard XLRs, good quality, affordable, small and versatile.
> You can even sync and word clock a load together, for loads of inputs!
> I have 3, and sync them all for 24 channels no problem.
> But as John said...
> If you are going to spend an basic annual salary on one set of mics, whats
> another 3 grand on another recorder and bespoke cables.
>
> Interested in what you are going to use it for Gus?
>
> Steve
>
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 20:25 John Leonard Main,  wrote:
>
> > Even worse for connections, though: 4 XLRs and 4 TA3s - I had a six-way
> > version made up for my 788 when I had a DPA 5001which was rather nice,
> but
> > not cheap. Those multi-pin Lemo connectors are expensive.
> >
> > But if you’re going for the Schoeps set up, what’s a  couple of thousand
> > bucks or so extra on top for the recorder and breakout? I’m sure someone
> > will do you a really good deal on a package. I think you’re in the UK, so
> > try the nice people at Pink Noise, SoundKit or Everything Audio, or the
> > BBList for a used recorder: there are a ton of them around at the moment
> as
> > everyone is either upgrading in the hope of attracting work when it comes
> > back, or selling up because they can’t afford to keep waiting for the
> work
> > to come back. SD 788s are often available used at reasonable prices. Or
> you
> > could go for the Zoom F8, which is inexpensive and seems to have many
> good
> > reports. I’m using a MixPre 10Tii with my OctoMic and am pretty happy
> with
> > it.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John
> >
> > > On 19 Oct 2020, at 19:04, Suso Ramallo  wrote:
> > >
> > > Sound Devices 788T
> > >
> > > Suso
> > >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks John - is there an alternative ?


On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 17:44, John Leonard Main  wrote:

> You’ll need a breakout: the 10T uses 8 (low-cost, sadly) XLR/TRS combi
> sockets.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
> > On 19 Oct 2020, at 17:28, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks,
> > I notice the Schoeps uses this cable :
> >
> > https://schoeps.de/en/products/accessories/cables/k-surround-m.html
> >
> > Does the sound devices take that or is it a breakout cable scenario  for
> > the Sound Devices
> >
> > On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 16:56, jack reynolds 
> > wrote:
> >
>
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Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks,
I notice the Schoeps uses this cable :

https://schoeps.de/en/products/accessories/cables/k-surround-m.html

Does the sound devices take that or is it a breakout cable scenario  for
the Sound Devices

On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 16:56, jack reynolds 
wrote:

> Sound devices Mix Pre 10ii will work well.
>
> Linked gains and very nice preamps.
>
> That's what I would use at least.
>
> Jack
>
>
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 16:34, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi there,
> > can someone recommend a recorder that would work well with the ORTF-3D
> > OUTDOOR SET
> >
> >
> >
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>
> 02036861372
>
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> E2 8FR
>
>
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[Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi there,
can someone recommend a recorder that would work well with the ORTF-3D
OUTDOOR SET



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Re: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center

[Augustine Leudar]

in which you CAN tell the software where the speakers are and ideally in
which direction they are facing.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 10:20, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> just to elaborate with an example - I once had to pan a sound around an
> octagon of speakers "facing outward" - using a normal octaphonic panner
> worked with this just as well as if the speakers had been facing inward -
> because basically the software doesn't know where you've put speakers- it
> just uses panning laws to pan sounds from one speaker to the next, you just
> need to play around with speaker positions/directivty/panning law etc . I
> even used an octaphonic panner in which the software thought the speakers
> were in a nice circle - to pan a sound round a part of a maze once. You
> just have to watch your panning law/speaker positions so there's not too
> many holes in the panning - and make sure you're not trying to pan "across
> the circle" as obviously if your speakers are not in a circle it will lead
> to unpredictable results. This is a workaround - obviously some form of
> special DBAP software is preferred.
>
> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 09:35, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi I do these kinds of things all the time - far more than ambisonics in
>> fact basically you want to use Dbap or just any form of amplitude panning.
>> You could try using ICST in max msp which allows you to draw a map of the
>> sp[eakers, adjust directivity and then pan the sound around said map, or
>> you could try Immersive DSPs  Immergo system which will allow you to do a
>> similar thing with certain soundcards, I believe Spat has this capability
>> too. If Learning this software is too much for your time schedule you can
>> use normal surround sound panners in a way that they're not strictly meant
>> to be used. For example a normal quadraphonic panner will still pan a sound
>> up and down a straight line of 4 speakers instead of a square if you put
>> the speakers in a straight line instead of a square etc etc
>> all the best
>> Gus
>>
>> On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 22:30, Søren Bendixen 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Surround group
>>> For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is
>>> causing me some concern
>>> one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded by
>>> 4 channels of sound)
>>> BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
>>> The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of
>>> approx. 30 - 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point
>>> upwards, a bit. Hope this is understandable.
>>>
>>> I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy"
>>> configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do not
>>> immediately know a program that can do such a set up. Next week I have to
>>> experiment with a similar high-pitched line-up - and think that I might
>>> just have to produce directly.
>>> I will try quad format first and see/hear what happens...
>>>
>>> One of the set ups is a Mammuth standing in a river. The sounddesign
>>> should "make the mammuth come alive - so I have one speaker for head, one
>>> for each side and one for the back of the animal.
>>> The diameter for the speaker circle is around one meter for this design,
>>> The diameter for the other design is approx. 2 meters.
>>>
>>> In both cases there must be a coherent sound design (in one set up we
>>> add speak).
>>> If anyone has ideas, experiences I would love to hear about it.
>>>
>>> Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
>>>
>>> Søren Bendixen
>>> Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist
>>>
>>> Company: Audiotect
>>>
>>> Radio Audiotect: Playlist <
>>> https://open.spotify.com/playlist/75xmPEKthgagQwwtvllfeJ?si=IqiVEz1lTOK9HKOXOtEcgQ
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Latest Music and Sounddesign
>>>
>>> Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "HEX - Museum for Witch Hunt"
>>> Ribe, Denmark
>>> From 30 june 2020 - Permanent exhibition
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20201002/538d72d5/attachment.htm
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>>> A non

Re: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center

[Augustine Leudar]

just to elaborate with an example - I once had to pan a sound around an
octagon of speakers "facing outward" - using a normal octaphonic panner
worked with this just as well as if the speakers had been facing inward -
because basically the software doesn't know where you've put speakers- it
just uses panning laws to pan sounds from one speaker to the next, you just
need to play around with speaker positions/directivty/panning law etc . I
even used an octaphonic panner in which the software thought the speakers
were in a nice circle - to pan a sound round a part of a maze once. You
just have to watch your panning law/speaker positions so there's not too
many holes in the panning - and make sure you're not trying to pan "across
the circle" as obviously if your speakers are not in a circle it will lead
to unpredictable results. This is a workaround - obviously some form of
special DBAP software is preferred.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 09:35, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Hi I do these kinds of things all the time - far more than ambisonics in
> fact basically you want to use Dbap or just any form of amplitude panning.
> You could try using ICST in max msp which allows you to draw a map of the
> sp[eakers, adjust directivity and then pan the sound around said map, or
> you could try Immersive DSPs  Immergo system which will allow you to do a
> similar thing with certain soundcards, I believe Spat has this capability
> too. If Learning this software is too much for your time schedule you can
> use normal surround sound panners in a way that they're not strictly meant
> to be used. For example a normal quadraphonic panner will still pan a sound
> up and down a straight line of 4 speakers instead of a square if you put
> the speakers in a straight line instead of a square etc etc
> all the best
> Gus
>
> On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 22:30, Søren Bendixen 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Surround group
>> For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is
>> causing me some concern
>> one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded by 4
>> channels of sound)
>> BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
>> The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of
>> approx. 30 - 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point
>> upwards, a bit. Hope this is understandable.
>>
>> I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy"
>> configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do not
>> immediately know a program that can do such a set up. Next week I have to
>> experiment with a similar high-pitched line-up - and think that I might
>> just have to produce directly.
>> I will try quad format first and see/hear what happens...
>>
>> One of the set ups is a Mammuth standing in a river. The sounddesign
>> should "make the mammuth come alive - so I have one speaker for head, one
>> for each side and one for the back of the animal.
>> The diameter for the speaker circle is around one meter for this design,
>> The diameter for the other design is approx. 2 meters.
>>
>> In both cases there must be a coherent sound design (in one set up we add
>> speak).
>> If anyone has ideas, experiences I would love to hear about it.
>>
>> Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
>>
>> Søren Bendixen
>> Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist
>>
>> Company: Audiotect
>>
>> Radio Audiotect: Playlist <
>> https://open.spotify.com/playlist/75xmPEKthgagQwwtvllfeJ?si=IqiVEz1lTOK9HKOXOtEcgQ
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Latest Music and Sounddesign
>>
>> Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "HEX - Museum for Witch Hunt"
>> Ribe, Denmark
>> From 30 june 2020 - Permanent exhibition
>>
>>
>>
>> -- next part --
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>> URL: <
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20201002/538d72d5/attachment.htm
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Re: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi I do these kinds of things all the time - far more than ambisonics in
fact basically you want to use Dbap or just any form of amplitude panning.
You could try using ICST in max msp which allows you to draw a map of the
sp[eakers, adjust directivity and then pan the sound around said map, or
you could try Immersive DSPs  Immergo system which will allow you to do a
similar thing with certain soundcards, I believe Spat has this capability
too. If Learning this software is too much for your time schedule you can
use normal surround sound panners in a way that they're not strictly meant
to be used. For example a normal quadraphonic panner will still pan a sound
up and down a straight line of 4 speakers instead of a square if you put
the speakers in a straight line instead of a square etc etc
all the best
Gus

On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 22:30, Søren Bendixen 
wrote:

> Hi Surround group
> For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is
> causing me some concern
> one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded by 4
> channels of sound)
> BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
> The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of
> approx. 30 - 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point
> upwards, a bit. Hope this is understandable.
>
> I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy"
> configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do not
> immediately know a program that can do such a set up. Next week I have to
> experiment with a similar high-pitched line-up - and think that I might
> just have to produce directly.
> I will try quad format first and see/hear what happens...
>
> One of the set ups is a Mammuth standing in a river. The sounddesign
> should "make the mammuth come alive - so I have one speaker for head, one
> for each side and one for the back of the animal.
> The diameter for the speaker circle is around one meter for this design,
> The diameter for the other design is approx. 2 meters.
>
> In both cases there must be a coherent sound design (in one set up we add
> speak).
> If anyone has ideas, experiences I would love to hear about it.
>
> Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
>
> Søren Bendixen
> Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist
>
> Company: Audiotect
>
> Radio Audiotect: Playlist <
> https://open.spotify.com/playlist/75xmPEKthgagQwwtvllfeJ?si=IqiVEz1lTOK9HKOXOtEcgQ
> >
>
>
>
> Latest Music and Sounddesign
>
> Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "HEX - Museum for Witch Hunt"
> Ribe, Denmark
> From 30 june 2020 - Permanent exhibition
>
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Speakers for an immersive audio-video installation

[Augustine Leudar]

A yes definately if it's in a game makes sense. I'm sure you'll be grand
with ambisonics. So is the audio going to be over speakers then? Love to
hear more about the project if its not NDA territory.

On Tuesday, 25 August 2020, MrUnmenge  wrote:

> Thanks a bunch to everyone for their answers!
>
> @Jürgen and Martin: I am confused, if I click the link to the attachment, i
> only get plaintext (google chrome) and unfortunately i'm not in the aes…
> i've send you, jürgen, a PM for that.
>
> @Gus: Thanks a lot for your suggestions. Touchdesigner looks very promising
> especially as the "backend" for the projection mapping, etc., we will
> investigate further.
> If it comes to designing audio in a game engine i am not the best expert.
> But the few times i did it, it was not so bad.
> Since we also need to port the installation into VR and it's overall a bit
> more like a game, i think we stick with an game engine for now…
>
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:07, Jürgen Peissig 
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Max,
> >
> > just saw that the list crops attachments.
> >
> > You can find the the publication here:
> > https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19522
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Juergen
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 23.08.20 um 15:07 schrieb MrUnmenge:
> > > Dear Groupe,
> > > i'm a longtime reader but first time poster to this wonderful email
> list,
> > > and I am still pretty new to 3d Audio so I would be grateful for some
> of
> > > your knowledge and experience.
> > >
> > > We are planning an immersive audio-video Installation that is supposed
> to
> > > be in a 4 x 3 x 3 meter room. 3 walls and the floor will be projected
> > onto.
> > > The Sound should come from all around the room (right now we are
> thinking
> > > about a rig of 12 speakers on ear-height, 4 on bottom layer, 4 on top
> > > layer, 1 voice of god and 4 lfes). Unfortunately quite a lot of the
> > > speakers need to be projected onto and ideally they would hide in the
> > > drywalls seamlessly without compromising the sound quality. So my first
> > two
> > > questions are (probably quit a few will follow):
> > >
> > > 1) What are your suggestions for hiding the speakers? Do you have
> > > experience what fabric or cinemascreens would still work well
> (regarding
> > > that the room is rather small and the audience can move freely and
> might
> > > come pretty close to the walls)? Are there any other methods that i'm
> not
> > > aware of?
> > >
> > > 2) How crucial is the sweetspot and is there a possibility to widen it
> by
> > > the choice of speakers and/or speaker layout without losing too much
> > > spatial resolution?
> > > The room is rather small, but still we expect the people to move around
> > in
> > > it, since their positions will be tracked and interact with the content
> > of
> > > the installation.
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot in advance, this mailing-list is a wonderfoul resource. :)
> > > I hope you all are well.
> > > All the best,
> > > Max
> > > -- next part --
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> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/
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> > >
> > > ___
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> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
> > --
> > -
> > Visit:  DAGA2020: German Acoustical Society meeting in Hannover in March
> > 2020.
> > http://www.daga2020.de/
> > -
> > ---
> > Prof. Dr. Jürgen Peissig
> > Institut für Kommunikationstechnik (IKT)
> > Leibniz Universität Hannover
> > Appelstr. 9a, 14. Etage
> > D-30167 HANNOVER
> > +49 511 762 4239
> > +49 172 519 7504
> > ---
> >
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Re: [Sursound] Speakers for an immersive audio-video installation

[Augustine Leudar]

A couple of years ago I did an 3d audio installation with unity . We sent
OSC between max msp and unity and did all the audio in max. I've done
similar things with open frameworks and I'm working on something with touch
designer at the moment. Personally I'd want to be doing the audio in
dedicated audio software like max communicating via osc.

On Sunday, 23 August 2020, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Not sure about unreal and unity but spat will let you convert pretty much
> anything to anything with regards to spatial audio (ie you could start with
> HOA and convert to dbap etc) If your using spat in max anyway. Do t know
> about the standalone software. Thibaut Carpentier is the man to ask.
>
> On Sunday, 23 August 2020, MrUnmenge  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for your reply, Gus.
>> We will use either unity or unreal for the Installation.
>> Please correct me if I am wrong, but as far as my research goes I think i
>> would be stuck with HOA, either through blue ripples rapture 3d (unity) or
>> an direct Ambisonic stream (unreal), which then would be encoded in
>> something like Spat Revolution... Do you know of something else?
>> Thanks again, I appreciate it.
>> All the best
>> Max
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>>
>
>
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> +44(0)7555784775
>
>
>

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Re: [Sursound] Speakers for an immersive audio-video installation

[Augustine Leudar]

Not sure about unreal and unity but spat will let you convert pretty much
anything to anything with regards to spatial audio (ie you could start with
HOA and convert to dbap etc) If your using spat in max anyway. Do t know
about the standalone software. Thibaut Carpentier is the man to ask.

On Sunday, 23 August 2020, MrUnmenge  wrote:

> Thanks for your reply, Gus.
> We will use either unity or unreal for the Installation.
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but as far as my research goes I think i
> would be stuck with HOA, either through blue ripples rapture 3d (unity) or
> an direct Ambisonic stream (unreal), which then would be encoded in
> something like Spat Revolution... Do you know of something else?
> Thanks again, I appreciate it.
> All the best
> Max
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Re: [Sursound] Speakers for an immersive audio-video installation

[Augustine Leudar]

I've used thin white sheets before and it hasn't made much difference to
the sound. If you use various types of amplitude panning instead of
Ambisonic there won't be a sweet spot if you design the sound correctly.
Best
Gus

On Sunday, 23 August 2020, MrUnmenge  wrote:

> Dear Groupe,
> i'm a longtime reader but first time poster to this wonderful email list,
> and I am still pretty new to 3d Audio so I would be grateful for some of
> your knowledge and experience.
>
> We are planning an immersive audio-video Installation that is supposed to
> be in a 4 x 3 x 3 meter room. 3 walls and the floor will be projected onto.
> The Sound should come from all around the room (right now we are thinking
> about a rig of 12 speakers on ear-height, 4 on bottom layer, 4 on top
> layer, 1 voice of god and 4 lfes). Unfortunately quite a lot of the
> speakers need to be projected onto and ideally they would hide in the
> drywalls seamlessly without compromising the sound quality. So my first two
> questions are (probably quit a few will follow):
>
> 1) What are your suggestions for hiding the speakers? Do you have
> experience what fabric or cinemascreens would still work well (regarding
> that the room is rather small and the audience can move freely and might
> come pretty close to the walls)? Are there any other methods that i'm not
> aware of?
>
> 2) How crucial is the sweetspot and is there a possibility to widen it by
> the choice of speakers and/or speaker layout without losing too much
> spatial resolution?
> The room is rather small, but still we expect the people to move around in
> it, since their positions will be tracked and interact with the content of
> the installation.
>
> Thanks a lot in advance, this mailing-list is a wonderfoul resource. :)
> I hope you all are well.
> All the best,
> Max
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> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural

[Augustine Leudar]

I was looking at that. One thing people also rarely talk about in audio is
the frequency response of their own ears - you can calibrate that as well -
you might find some unwelcome surprises though!

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 20:13, moskowitz  wrote:

> I don't know if anyone has mentioned Sonarworks Reference 4 (
> https://www.sonarworks.com/reference).
>
> It's a corrective EQ for headphones. Besides their curves for specific
> models of headphones, they will also measure your own headphones and
> provide a curve specifically for them.
>
> Their web site has test results for a wide range of headphones.
>
> Recommended!
>
>
> Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
> Core Sound LLC
> www.core-sound.com
> Home of OctoMic and TetraMic
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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural (Gernot von Schultzendorff)

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Steve,
Good suggestions. My NS10s have given up the ghost - I had them since 1998.
I also loved them and couldn't see why everyone was always moaning about
them. Im a Genelec guy too now - I love the GLM calibration. I have an old
pair of Kefs too which sound lovely - anyway I digress - cheers!

On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 12:40, Steven Boardman 
wrote:

> If you have a set of HD600 (which as everyone says are great), you could
> convolve your pinnae and the headphones together, producing an IR that can
> flatten out both.
> This will mean you can use your own SOFA HRTF file, with no added effect
> from headphones, or the doubling of your pinnae. Effectively flat response
> at the ear canal. (eq’ing for the ear canal is another point of interest).
> You can then use your favourite NS10 IR for that authentic 80-90’s mixing
> reference, or any other speaker, studio or room.
> Personally I always prefer to mix on speakers and test on headphones, no
> matter what the delivery is.
> This has always produced the most robust mix for me, that translates best
> across all delivery platforms.
>
> Incidentally I mixed solely on NS10’s all the way up to 2009, at which
> point I had 8 in a cube.
>  I was that in love with mixing on them, that I mixed ambisonics with them
> too.
> Although as you might guess, they aren’t very good for ambisonics because
> of the off centre tweeters.
> These days i’m purely Genelec for HOA, but I still test on every set of
> headphones, laptops phones, cars, and NS10’s  I can find:)
>
> Best
>
> Steve
>
>
> > On 25 Jun 2020, at 10:34, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
> >
> > That's nice to hear seeing as that is what I am using and they are very
> > accurate measuring very flat and fast spectral decay at all frequencies
> > more neutral than the HD650 or HD800. They are certainly my first choice
> of
> > headphones for mixing normal audio. However I guess the requirements
> of
> > binaural may be slightly different to normal stereo mixing and certainly
> > hifi listening. At least that's what I'm trying to assess at the moment.
> So
> > for mixing stereo you might choose Ns10m ((definately not flat) Genelec,
> > Atc whatever for mixing but for mastering you would choose Bowers and
> > Wilkins, Dunlavy, larger speakers generally. The applications for mixing
> > and mastering being slightly different. So I wonder if it's the same for
> > headphones. A listening test which assessed subject localisation in 3d
> > space comparing the same audio over various headphones would seem to be
> the
> > best way to resolve this. A large enough sample size should override the
> > differences between individual HRTFs. What you say about diffusivity is
> > interesting though I don't know how you could test for that.
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, 25 June 2020, Gernot von Schultzendorff <
> > g.schultzendo...@saalakustik.de> wrote:
> >
> >> The spatial reproduction of localization cues as they are used in common
> >> perception tests is only one aspect when it comes to the question of how
> >> well headphones are able to represent 3-dimensional spatiality. From my
> >> point of view it is even more important how headphones are able to
> >> reproduce diffusivity, because appropriate and meaningful diffusivity
> >> recognized by the perceptual system of the listener directly influences
> the
> >> overall quality of what is perceived. What is meant is the perceptual
> >> phenomenon that makes the listening experience in very good concert
> halls a
> >> very special one. This is a matter of holistic diffusivity, not local
> >> diffusivity, the latter making a single sound source appear less sharply
> >> defined. Holistic diffusivity can be experienced directly in good
> concert
> >> halls by switching between a place that is cut off from the diffusivity
> >> field (most often under the balconies) and a "good" listening place
> during
> >> the interval - sometimes it is already enough and makes t
> >> he comparison especially striking to simply sit down 2 rows further
> >> ahead. There are worlds between the two listening experiences.
> >>
> >> Such holistic diffusivity which is not uniform but highly structured
> seems
> >> to be largely under the radar of acoustic and perceptual sciences, and,
> as
> >> far as I know, it is also hardly ever discussed in the audio field.
> >>
> >> Already with stereo music recordings, it is usually an essential sound
> >> aesthetic goal for me to make this kind of diffusivity effective to the
> >> listener ev

Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural (Gernot von Schultzendorff)

[Augustine Leudar]

That's nice to hear seeing as that is what I am using and they are very
accurate measuring very flat and fast spectral decay at all frequencies
more neutral than the HD650 or HD800. They are certainly my first choice of
headphones for mixing normal audio. However I guess the requirements of
binaural may be slightly different to normal stereo mixing and certainly
hifi listening. At least that's what I'm trying to assess at the moment. So
for mixing stereo you might choose Ns10m ((definately not flat) Genelec,
Atc whatever for mixing but for mastering you would choose Bowers and
Wilkins, Dunlavy, larger speakers generally. The applications for mixing
and mastering being slightly different. So I wonder if it's the same for
headphones. A listening test which assessed subject localisation in 3d
space comparing the same audio over various headphones would seem to be the
best way to resolve this. A large enough sample size should override the
differences between individual HRTFs. What you say about diffusivity is
interesting though I don't know how you could test for that.


On Thursday, 25 June 2020, Gernot von Schultzendorff <
g.schultzendo...@saalakustik.de> wrote:

> The spatial reproduction of localization cues as they are used in common
> perception tests is only one aspect when it comes to the question of how
> well headphones are able to represent 3-dimensional spatiality. From my
> point of view it is even more important how headphones are able to
> reproduce diffusivity, because appropriate and meaningful diffusivity
> recognized by the perceptual system of the listener directly influences the
> overall quality of what is perceived. What is meant is the perceptual
> phenomenon that makes the listening experience in very good concert halls a
> very special one. This is a matter of holistic diffusivity, not local
> diffusivity, the latter making a single sound source appear less sharply
> defined. Holistic diffusivity can be experienced directly in good concert
> halls by switching between a place that is cut off from the diffusivity
> field (most often under the balconies) and a "good" listening place during
> the interval - sometimes it is already enough and makes t
>  he comparison especially striking to simply sit down 2 rows further
> ahead. There are worlds between the two listening experiences.
>
> Such holistic diffusivity which is not uniform but highly structured seems
> to be largely under the radar of acoustic and perceptual sciences, and, as
> far as I know, it is also hardly ever discussed in the audio field.
>
> Already with stereo music recordings, it is usually an essential sound
> aesthetic goal for me to make this kind of diffusivity effective to the
> listener even within the highly limited context of the stereo format. These
> recordings are mixed over loudspeakers, but with the occasional use of
> headphones I always choose the Sennheiser HD600. Also and especially with
> binaural mixes (HOA 3rd order) I haven't listened to any better suited
> headphones so far. Without wanting to judge what the technical background
> for this is, the described "holistic" spatial reproduction of these
> headphones has been extremely successful. It is the main reason why it
> seems to be the most common tool used by audio professionals involved in
> binaural mixing (it was also used, besides the entries here in the forum,
> for the binaural remixes of old Kraftwerk recordings).
>
> Best
> Gernot
>
>
> > Am 24.06.2020 um 18:00 schrieb sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu:
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2020 11:48:53 +0200 (CEST)
> > From: Brian KATZ 
> > To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural
> >   compositions
> > Message-ID:
> >   <969745703.37859639.1592992133215.JavaMail.zimbra@
> sorbonne-universite.fr>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> >   "it would interesting to see if there are any papers/listening
> tests which have
> > tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
> > there any ?"
> >
> > Here is at lest 1 study that I am familiar with:
> >
> > D. Sch?nstein, L. Ferr?, and B. Katz, ?Comparison of headphones and
> equalization for virtual auditory source localization,? in Acoustics?08. 9e
> Congres Fran?ais d?Acoustique of the SFA. Paru dans : JASA, Vol 123, n?5,
> (Paris), pp. 1?5, 2008, (http://webistem.com/acoustics2008/acoustics2008/
> cd1/data/articles/001080.pdf).
> >
> > --
> > Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS
> > Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique ? Musique
> > Sorbonne Universit?, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond ?'Alembert
> > http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz
>
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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

PS Fons - very interesting about the occlusion effect - very good point !!

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
> > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> working
> > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
> > calibrated system, room treatment etc
>
> > I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
> may
> > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
> > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
> just
> > left with the HRTFs
>
> In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have
> a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that
> this prevents externalisation.
>
> Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is changed
> by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much stronger
> when you close the ear canal.
>
> It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this
> requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within
> the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward
> systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm involved).
>
> That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even
> among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
> influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
> two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised',
> some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening.
> It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses
> are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not,
> even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the
> 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-)
>
> The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed
> by normal equalisation or as part of the design.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Brilliant Brian tx

On Wednesday, 24 June 2020, Brian KATZ 
wrote:

> "it would interesting to see if there are any papers/listening
> tests which have
> tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
> there any ?"
>
> Here is at lest 1 study that I am familiar with:
>
> D. Schönstein, L. Ferré, and B. Katz, “Comparison of headphones and
> equalization for virtual auditory source localization,” in Acoustics’08. 9e
> Congres Français d’Acoustique of the SFA. Paru dans : JASA, Vol 123, n°5,
> (Paris), pp. 1–5, 2008, (http://webistem.com/acoustics2008/acoustics2008/
> cd1/data/articles/001080.pdf).
>
> --
> Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS
> Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique – Musique
> Sorbonne Université, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond ∂'Alembert
> http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz
>
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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks Justin I'll check them out. I have had the HD650 and now have the
HD600 as they have measured by far the flattest so far. Tx for sharing!

On Wednesday, 24 June 2020, Justin Bennett  wrote:

> Hi Augustine,
>
> I have good experience with various Sennheiser cheap open-back headphones
> for binuaral
> presentation - we use them a lot for audio-walks with many binaural
> effects. However each
> model has a particular frequency response which I almost always correct
> for in my mix.
>
> But for mixing and mastering usually use Beyer Dynamic DT-250’s. These are
> a closed type
> and also not super- hi-fi but for me they represent the kind of NS-10
> experience you’re talking about. Also they are incredibly comfortable and
> handy for field recording, which is what I use them for mostly. Although
> these days they’re used more for online conference calls ;-)
>
> best wishes, Justin
>
> Justin Bennett
>
> jus...@justinbennett.nl
> www.justinbennett.nl
> http://jubilee-art.org/
>
> new podcast series: http://soundscaper.com/the_constellation
>
> https://vimeo.com/justinbennett
>
> https://justinbennett.bandcamp.com/
>
>
> > On 24 Jun 2020, at 11:35, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 22:16:17 +0100
> > From: Augustine Leudar 
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural
> >   compositions
> > Message-ID:
> >gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Hi Steve
> > Tx for the reply. No the headphones are not equalised for my pinnae in
> fact
> > not quite sure what you mean by that, iI am talking about using generic
> > hrtfs. It is also possible to localise static objects. Something that
> close
> > to the ear would probably fall firmly within what is called "the cone of
> > confusion" but that's a location itself albeit blurry. Also important to
> > remember I am asking about suitable headphones for monitoring not
> > necessarily the best binaural experience. So the headphones that would
> > translate best to whatever most people would listen on. In the studio
> that
> > used to be ns10s but now is probably genelec. However the concept is the
> > same, which headphones are best to produce binaural on yo successfully
> > translate to the widest range of headphones, preferably without losing
> > quality for those with hi end headphones. In the mastering world this is
> > generally something like bowers and Wilkins speakers.
> >
> > On Tuesday, 23 June 2020, Steven Boardman 
> wrote:
> >
> >> If your headphones are equalised for your pinnae, then this is surely
> >> negated?
> >> As you aren't moving your headphones, then it shouldn't be a problem, as
> >> they are on axis and your hrtf will remain static, (or non existent with
> >> eq).
> >> I can anecdotally confirm what Fons mentioned.
> >> I have many different flavours of earbuds,  closed and open headphones,
> and
> >> by far the best outer head binaural experience, is with my open back
> ones.
> >> This is without custom eq for my ears, but with a generic flattening eq,
> >> which really improves the effect.
> >> I can imagine it would improve massively using  hrtf for my own ears,
> >> convolved with eq to flatten the response of both my pinnae and
> >> headphones..
> >>
> >> Best
> >>
> >> Steve
>
>
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks Hannes I'll give that a read. Im beginning to feel that like stereo
it's probably best to reference on a wide range of headphones, from the
super accurate phase coherant, to the apple earbuds 80% will listen on as a
reference.

On Tuesday, 23 June 2020, Hannes Helmholz 
wrote:

> I found this paper quite a while ago [1]. I suppose it tries to answer
> exactly the question you have.
>
> However, I find it difficult to judge whether the employed way of
> simulating different sets of headphones via impulse responses is really
> "transparent" there.
> Even if done to the best of technical ability, I doubt that the
> simulation can provide an accurate representation of another headphones'
> ear signals in the subjects ears (also since HRTFs an HRIRs of a dummy
> head were used). On a perceptual level however, they state that the
> simulation works okay by referencing former studies.
>
> As other people also mentioned, occlusion (according to open / closed
> back headphones / earbuds) has a big influence on perceived attributes
> of binaural reproduction. This is one point which I think is very
> difficult or even impossible to simulate without actually employing the
> individual headsets (I imagine it requires extensive technical effort
> and even more individual tuning for each subject).
>
> However, learning about the influence of different (low cost) headphone
> magnitude spectra is of course valuable. :)
>
> [1] P. Gutierrez-Parera and J. J. Lopez, “Influence of the quality of
> Consumer Headphones in the Perception of Spatial Audio,” Appl. Sci.,
> vol. 6, no. 5, pp. 1–18, 2016, doi: 10.3390/app6040117.
> https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/6/4/117/pdf
>
> Best,
> /Hannes
>
> On 2020-06-23 22:23, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > "The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> > to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> > that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> > is not the case. "
> >
> > Well except the headphones do have a direction if they are outside your
> > Pinnae - in the case of my HD6000s the driver is about 2 cm outside my
> > pinnae in the middle of my ear so they would have whatever the HRTF is
> for
> > being close to / next to your ear, in the same way, I guess a mosquito
> has
> > when it flies close to your ear can be localised as it flies past the
> same
> > position, admittedly that is a moving object unlike headphones ... it
> would
> > interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests which have
> > tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
> > there any ?
> >
> > On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> >>
> >>> I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> >> working
> >>> on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I
> have a
> >>> calibrated system, room treatment etc
> >>
> >>> I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> >>> that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
> >> may
> >>> not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna
> filtering
> >>> seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> >>> might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
> >> just
> >>> left with the HRTFs
> >>
> >> In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have
> >> a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that
> >> this prevents externalisation.
> >>
> >> Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is
> changed
> >> by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much
> stronger
> >> when you close the ear canal.
> >>
> >> It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this
> >> requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within
> >> the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward
> >> systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm
> involved).
> >>
> >> That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even
> >> among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
> >> influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
> >> two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised',
> >> 

Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Steve
Tx for the reply. No the headphones are not equalised for my pinnae in fact
not quite sure what you mean by that, iI am talking about using generic
hrtfs. It is also possible to localise static objects. Something that close
to the ear would probably fall firmly within what is called "the cone of
confusion" but that's a location itself albeit blurry. Also important to
remember I am asking about suitable headphones for monitoring not
necessarily the best binaural experience. So the headphones that would
translate best to whatever most people would listen on. In the studio that
used to be ns10s but now is probably genelec. However the concept is the
same, which headphones are best to produce binaural on yo successfully
translate to the widest range of headphones, preferably without losing
quality for those with hi end headphones. In the mastering world this is
generally something like bowers and Wilkins speakers.

On Tuesday, 23 June 2020, Steven Boardman  wrote:

> If your headphones are equalised for your pinnae, then this is surely
> negated?
> As you aren't moving your headphones, then it shouldn't be a problem, as
> they are on axis and your hrtf will remain static, (or non existent with
> eq).
> I can anecdotally confirm what Fons mentioned.
> I have many different flavours of earbuds,  closed and open headphones, and
> by far the best outer head binaural experience, is with my open back ones.
> This is without custom eq for my ears, but with a generic flattening eq,
> which really improves the effect.
> I can imagine it would improve massively using  hrtf for my own ears,
> convolved with eq to flatten the response of both my pinnae and
> headphones..
>
> Best
>
> Steve
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 21:24 Augustine Leudar, 
> wrote:
>
> > "The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> > to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> > that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> > is not the case. "
> >
> > Well except the headphones do have a direction if they are outside your
> > Pinnae - in the case of my HD6000s the driver is about 2 cm outside my
> > pinnae in the middle of my ear so they would have whatever the HRTF is
> for
> > being close to / next to your ear, in the same way, I guess a mosquito
> has
> > when it flies close to your ear can be localised as it flies past the
> same
> > position, admittedly that is a moving object unlike headphones ... it
> would
> > interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests which have
> > tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
> > there any ?
> >
> > On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen 
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > >
> > > > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> > > working
> > > > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I
> > have a
> > > > calibrated system, room treatment etc
> > >
> > > > I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> > > > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear
> headphones
> > > may
> > > > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna
> > filtering
> > > > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking
> earbuds
> > > > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you
> are
> > > just
> > > > left with the HRTFs
> > >
> > > In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds
> have
> > > a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that
> > > this prevents externalisation.
> > >
> > > Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is
> changed
> > > by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much
> > stronger
> > > when you close the ear canal.
> > >
> > > It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but
> this
> > > requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within
> > > the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward
> > > systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm
> > involved).
> > >
> > > That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even
> > > among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
> > > influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
>

Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

That's interesting Hector. Generally from what I remember you have
migrating frequency notches/peaks above 10khz that go up or down depending
on sound source elevation and this is caused by the direction dependant
filtering caused by the pinnae. However there was an experiment that low
passed filtered sounds beneath 5khz and people did not lose accuracy of
elevation localisation perception so maybe something else going on too , I
think it was this paper: Martens WL. Directional Hearing on the Frontal
Plane: Necessary and Sufficient Spectral Cues. North-western University,
Evanston, Illinois; 1991.

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 23:56, Hector Centeno  wrote:

> That's true. On the other hand, with the recordings I make using over the
> ear mics I do get a strong height effect (e.g. airplanes flying above or
> birds calling from trees).
>
> On Fri., Jun. 19, 2020, 6:39 p.m. Augustine Leudar, <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Hector - strictly speaking for it to be a binaural recording it would
> > have to be done in-ear, or in a dummy heads ear,  otherwise you would
> only
> > have ILDs and ITDs and not the height information that is caused by the
> > direction dependant filtering of the pinna (and to some extent
> shoulders) .
> > However here I am creating binaural soundscape sin a DAW using a VST
> > binaural panner rather than recordings .
> >
> > On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 23:20, Hector Centeno  wrote:
> >
> > > I'm wondering if it is the case that if the ambisonic recording is made
> > > with in-ear microphones then earbuds would make more sense, and if it's
> > > done with microphones outside the ear (clipped on the sides of the head
> > or
> > > above the ear) then over-the-ear headphones would work. I record using
> > > microphones over the ear and I find that playback using closed back
> > > over-the-ear headphones works the best.
> > >
> > > Hector
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:13 PM Augustine Leudar <
> > > augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello all,
> > > > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> > > working
> > > > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I
> > have a
> > > > calibrated system, room treatment etc I have a pair of Sennheiser
> > HD600s
> > > > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear
> headphones
> > > may
> > > > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna
> > filtering
> > > > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking
> earbuds
> > > > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you
> are
> > > just
> > > > left with the HRTFs - then again like mastering it depends somewhat
> on
> > > what
> > > > your target audience will be using mostly. Has anyone given any
> thought
> > > to
> > > > this and what do you think are the most suitable headphones for
> > binaural
> > > > work?
> > > > all the beat
> > > > Augustine
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> > > > Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> > > > +44(0)7555784775
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> > > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Sursound mailing list
> > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> > here,
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> > > ___
> > > Sursound mailing list
> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
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> >
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> > Business website: www

Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

"The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
is not the case. "

Well except the headphones do have a direction if they are outside your
Pinnae - in the case of my HD6000s the driver is about 2 cm outside my
pinnae in the middle of my ear so they would have whatever the HRTF is for
being close to / next to your ear, in the same way, I guess a mosquito has
when it flies close to your ear can be localised as it flies past the same
position, admittedly that is a moving object unlike headphones ... it would
interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests which have
tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
there any ?

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
> > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> working
> > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
> > calibrated system, room treatment etc
>
> > I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
> may
> > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
> > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
> just
> > left with the HRTFs
>
> In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have
> a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that
> this prevents externalisation.
>
> Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is changed
> by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much stronger
> when you close the ear canal.
>
> It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this
> requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within
> the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward
> systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm involved).
>
> That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even
> among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
> influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
> two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised',
> some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening.
> It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses
> are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not,
> even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the
> 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-)
>
> The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed
> by normal equalisation or as part of the design.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Hector - strictly speaking for it to be a binaural recording it would
have to be done in-ear, or in a dummy heads ear,  otherwise you would only
have ILDs and ITDs and not the height information that is caused by the
direction dependant filtering of the pinna (and to some extent shoulders) .
However here I am creating binaural soundscape sin a DAW using a VST
binaural panner rather than recordings .

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 23:20, Hector Centeno  wrote:

> I'm wondering if it is the case that if the ambisonic recording is made
> with in-ear microphones then earbuds would make more sense, and if it's
> done with microphones outside the ear (clipped on the sides of the head or
> above the ear) then over-the-ear headphones would work. I record using
> microphones over the ear and I find that playback using closed back
> over-the-ear headphones works the best.
>
> Hector
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:13 PM Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> working
> > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
> > calibrated system, room treatment etc I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
> may
> > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
> > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
> just
> > left with the HRTFs - then again like mastering it depends somewhat on
> what
> > your target audience will be using mostly. Has anyone given any thought
> to
> > this and what do you think are the most suitable headphones for binaural
> > work?
> > all the beat
> > Augustine
> >
> > --
> > Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> > Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> > +44(0)7555784775
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[Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Hello all,
I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards working
on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
calibrated system, room treatment etc I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones may
not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are just
left with the HRTFs - then again like mastering it depends somewhat on what
your target audience will be using mostly. Has anyone given any thought to
this and what do you think are the most suitable headphones for binaural
work?
all the beat
Augustine

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Re: [Sursound] Mach1 Spatial SDK for Multichannel & Spatial Audio Tooling

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks Dylan

On Wednesday, 17 June 2020, Dylan Marcus  wrote:

> Proud to announce that the Mach1 Spatial SDK is open and available on our
> github: https://github.com/Mach1Studios/m1-sdk  Mach1Studios/m1-sdk>
> We will be consolidating all our libs/examples/tools here:
> https://www.mach1.tech/developers 
>
> Included in our SDK is an executable commandline Swiss army knife for
> vector based conversions between any spatial or multichannel format to any
> other spatial or multichannel format we have found documentation on, we are
> striving to make this a community driven tool and are working on a GUI web
> app so that anyone can contribute their own custom multichannel
> configurations to be built into this executable (and library). Recently we
> have added the ability to input custom configurations via JSON to expand on
> the usability.
> You can find our m1-transcode binaries here: https://github.com/
> Mach1Studios/m1-sdk/tree/master/binaries/executables  Mach1Studios/m1-sdk/tree/master/binaries/executables>
>
> After years of use with our team internally on many projects and some key
> integrations to expand upon spatial and multichannel audio development to
> grow the spatial audio medium; we have matured our SDK and are excited to
> see how others might utilize it!
>
> Additionally we have been working on R for best practices for different
> methods of headtracking for the web when utilized for spatial audio. We
> hope this can be combined with the above m1-transcode tool for new methods
> of reviewing surround and multichannel content and hopefully make things
> more accessible and creative for us all.
>
> Check out the latest version of this here: https://player.mach1.tech <
> https://player.mach1.tech/> (requires webcam)
> Check out the git here: https://github.com/Mach1Studios/m1-web-
> spatialaudioplayer  spatialaudioplayer>
>
>   340.29 m / s
>
>   Dylan Marcus
>   Technical Director
>   A Sound Technology Company.
>   New York New York
>   The United States of America.
>   www.mach1.tech
>
>   Defenders of the Audio Realm™
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] The Encounter by Simon McBurney is online until 25 May

[Augustine Leudar]

Listening now it's brilliant. I lived in the Amazon for 10 years or so this
is a real treat - theatre for the ears and a really good story, perfect
lockdown treat

On Friday, 22 May 2020, Arthur Sauer  wrote:

> For those of you who missed it. One of the best theatre performances I
> ever saw and heard.
>
> You sit there with headphones on and everything is recorded by a Neumann
> KU 100 (+ some extra sound mixed in).
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAl9mb21NsI
>
> Best regards,
>
> Arthur Sauer
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Binaural rendering of an Eigenmike recording

[Augustine Leudar]

Hey ! My cynicism alarms were buzzing away, its my default setting now  -
but that's actually really effective - well done ! I don't suppose you do a
VST plugin / panner of some sort ?

On Thu, 21 May 2020 at 17:50, Douglas Murray  wrote:

> Dear Jens,
>
> That sounds really good.
>
> Best,
> Doug
>
> > On May 21, 2020, at 9:03 AM, Jens Ahrens 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > … and another post from me.
> >
> > Here’s a quick 2-min video of what binaural rendering of an Eigenmike
> recording can sound like for those of you who haven’t heard this before:
> https://youtu.be/qcqeygqjxZ4 It’s 4th order rendered directly in the
> spherical harmonic domain (without a virtual discrete loudspeaker array).
> The rendering was done with ReTiSAR (
> https://github.com/AppliedAcousticsChalmers/ReTiSAR), which is generously
> funded by Facebook Reality Labs.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jens
> >
> > --
> > Jens Ahrens
> > Associate Professor
> > Division of Applied Acoustics
> > Chalmers University of Technology
> > 41296 Gothenburg
> > Sweden
> > +46 (0)31 772 2210
> > http://www.ta.chalmers.se/people/jens-ahrens/
> >
> > ___
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> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


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Re: [Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks Ralph I'll give it a proper trial this week sometime

On Sunday, 5 April 2020, Ralph Glasgal  wrote:
> We are working on a headphone version of Ambiophonics, so keep posted.
>
> The trick is to give them a live demo.  Once they have heard loudspeaker
> binaural moving the speakers closer together is not such an obstacle.  I
> demonstrate by handing them a little foxl four inch wide sound bar and
then
> watch them try to find the speakers at the side of the room.  If you have
> money you can use BACCH at a wide speaker angle but that method is even
more
> complex than Ambisonics.
>
> Of course if you don't need perfection, you can use RACE at a wider
speaker
> angle.  It will still be better than stereo and that is what the two
> adjustments in RACE are for.  I think most users will gradually move their
> speakers as they learn how to listen and use the simple adjustments.  It
> certainly is a lot easier than Dolby Atmos or Auro3D or any three speaker
> 5.1 home theater setup.
>
> Ralph
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
Augustine
> Leudar
> Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2020 4:21 PM
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?
>
> To be honest - Im mainly looking for something for headphones for this -
> but yes - if someone has some kind of magical two speaker solution of any
> description that would be great - but I haven't really heard anything
> that's really done it for me yet . I did have a listen to your stuff but
> the 20 degree speaker thing is an issue in the studio - and I couldn't
rely
> on the public moving speakers around or step back from speakers or that
> they would position speaker sin any certain way  , sadly anything beyond a
> volume control and the they  lose interest .
>
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 21:08, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
>> Its liste don here - but I don't know if this is the new or old version,
>> the old version had some problems :
>>
>> https://forum.ircam.fr/projects/detail/spat/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 21:06, Augustine Leudar 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ralph,
>>> Thanks for that ,  Im looking for two speaker rather than 4 speaker
>>> solutions. Transaural is a term that was still being used very recently
> by
>>> some researchers at IRcaam -
>>> apparently they had about 3 PhD students working on a new transaural
>>> object for Spat - I don't know whether it ever got released. It wasn't
> just
>>> about the cross talk cancellation
>>> either, but they were also doing some stuff with HRTFs as well. Ill have
>>> a look at that page anyway tx
>>>
>>> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 20:49, Ralph Glasgal 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Transaural is essentially an early version of a crosstalk cancellation
>>>> algorithm if you mean the Cooper/Bauck paper.  But time marches on.
>>>> RACE,
>>>> BACCH and a host of products based on these basic equations are now
>>>> available.  Ambiophonics VST is a plugin but only works with Windows
>>>> programs.  Otherwise there is Amtra, Neutron MP, Aria3d, Soundpimp,
>>>> miniDSP,
>>>> etc. or you can program your own using Audiomulch or similar and the
> RACE
>>>> block diagram.  All these apps allow a good 2.0 or 4.0 recording to be
>>>> reproduced in half/full surround in the horizontal plane using four
>>>> speakers.  All the links are collected at www.ambiophonics.org and RACE
>>>> is
>>>> in the public domain.  Also lots of AES papers, tutorials, and 4.0 demo
>>>> tracks you can play with.  This technology competes with Ambisonics so
>>>> there
>>>> it is.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph Glasgal
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
>>>> Augustine
>>>> Leudar
>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2020 1:33 PM
>>>> To: Surround Sound discussion group
>>>> Subject: [Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?
>>>>
>>>> Hi there Surrsounders,
>>>> I hope you are all safe and well. So all our installations, audio
>>>> events, and exhibitions etc have obviously been canceled, and we've
>>>> basically been wiped out for the summer so I want to do some binaural
>>>> work
>>>> (not interactive), something I haven't done for a long time. C

Re: [Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?

[Augustine Leudar]

To be honest - Im mainly looking for something for headphones for this -
but yes - if someone has some kind of magical two speaker solution of any
description that would be great - but I haven't really heard anything
that's really done it for me yet . I did have a listen to your stuff but
the 20 degree speaker thing is an issue in the studio - and I couldn't rely
on the public moving speakers around or step back from speakers or that
they would position speaker sin any certain way  , sadly anything beyond a
volume control and the they  lose interest .

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 21:08, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Its liste don here - but I don't know if this is the new or old version,
> the old version had some problems :
>
> https://forum.ircam.fr/projects/detail/spat/
>
>
>
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 21:06, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ralph,
>> Thanks for that ,  Im looking for two speaker rather than 4 speaker
>> solutions. Transaural is a term that was still being used very recently by
>> some researchers at IRcaam -
>> apparently they had about 3 PhD students working on a new transaural
>> object for Spat - I don't know whether it ever got released. It wasn't just
>> about the cross talk cancellation
>> either, but they were also doing some stuff with HRTFs as well. Ill have
>> a look at that page anyway tx
>>
>> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 20:49, Ralph Glasgal 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Transaural is essentially an early version of a crosstalk cancellation
>>> algorithm if you mean the Cooper/Bauck paper.  But time marches on.
>>> RACE,
>>> BACCH and a host of products based on these basic equations are now
>>> available.  Ambiophonics VST is a plugin but only works with Windows
>>> programs.  Otherwise there is Amtra, Neutron MP, Aria3d, Soundpimp,
>>> miniDSP,
>>> etc. or you can program your own using Audiomulch or similar and the RACE
>>> block diagram.  All these apps allow a good 2.0 or 4.0 recording to be
>>> reproduced in half/full surround in the horizontal plane using four
>>> speakers.  All the links are collected at www.ambiophonics.org and RACE
>>> is
>>> in the public domain.  Also lots of AES papers, tutorials, and 4.0 demo
>>> tracks you can play with.  This technology competes with Ambisonics so
>>> there
>>> it is.
>>>
>>> Ralph Glasgal
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
>>> Augustine
>>> Leudar
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2020 1:33 PM
>>> To: Surround Sound discussion group
>>> Subject: [Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?
>>>
>>> Hi there Surrsounders,
>>> I hope you are all safe and well. So all our installations, audio
>>> events, and exhibitions etc have obviously been canceled, and we've
>>> basically been wiped out for the summer so I want to do some binaural
>>> work
>>> (not interactive), something I haven't done for a long time. Can anyone
>>> let
>>> me know what they think is the best binaural VST plugin around at the
>>> moment  - my favourite so far has been anaglyph - any other
>>> recommendations? Also, did anyone hear an effective transaural effort (I
>>> know Thebaut at IRCAM said his transaural spat thing was going to be good
>>> but I've never heard it, I dont even know if its released ),
>>> all the best
>>> Augustine
>>> --
>>> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
>>> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
>>> +44(0)7555784775
>>> -- next part --
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>>> <
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>>> da2a1/attachment.html
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>>> >
>>> ___
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>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>>> edit
>>> account or options, view archives and so on.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
>> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
>> +44(0)7555784775
>>
>>
>
> --
> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
>
>

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Re: [Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?

[Augustine Leudar]

Its liste don here - but I don't know if this is the new or old version,
the old version had some problems :

https://forum.ircam.fr/projects/detail/spat/



On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 21:06, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Hi Ralph,
> Thanks for that ,  Im looking for two speaker rather than 4 speaker
> solutions. Transaural is a term that was still being used very recently by
> some researchers at IRcaam -
> apparently they had about 3 PhD students working on a new transaural
> object for Spat - I don't know whether it ever got released. It wasn't just
> about the cross talk cancellation
> either, but they were also doing some stuff with HRTFs as well. Ill have a
> look at that page anyway tx
>
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 20:49, Ralph Glasgal 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Transaural is essentially an early version of a crosstalk cancellation
>> algorithm if you mean the Cooper/Bauck paper.  But time marches on.  RACE,
>> BACCH and a host of products based on these basic equations are now
>> available.  Ambiophonics VST is a plugin but only works with Windows
>> programs.  Otherwise there is Amtra, Neutron MP, Aria3d, Soundpimp,
>> miniDSP,
>> etc. or you can program your own using Audiomulch or similar and the RACE
>> block diagram.  All these apps allow a good 2.0 or 4.0 recording to be
>> reproduced in half/full surround in the horizontal plane using four
>> speakers.  All the links are collected at www.ambiophonics.org and RACE
>> is
>> in the public domain.  Also lots of AES papers, tutorials, and 4.0 demo
>> tracks you can play with.  This technology competes with Ambisonics so
>> there
>> it is.
>>
>> Ralph Glasgal
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
>> Augustine
>> Leudar
>> Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2020 1:33 PM
>> To: Surround Sound discussion group
>> Subject: [Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?
>>
>> Hi there Surrsounders,
>> I hope you are all safe and well. So all our installations, audio
>> events, and exhibitions etc have obviously been canceled, and we've
>> basically been wiped out for the summer so I want to do some binaural work
>> (not interactive), something I haven't done for a long time. Can anyone
>> let
>> me know what they think is the best binaural VST plugin around at the
>> moment  - my favourite so far has been anaglyph - any other
>> recommendations? Also, did anyone hear an effective transaural effort (I
>> know Thebaut at IRCAM said his transaural spat thing was going to be good
>> but I've never heard it, I dont even know if its released ),
>> all the best
>> Augustine
>> --
>> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
>> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
>> +44(0)7555784775
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200405/316
>> da2a1/attachment.html
>> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200405/316da2a1/attachment.html>
>> >
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit
>> account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
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>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
> --
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> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
>
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Re: [Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Ralph,
Thanks for that ,  Im looking for two speaker rather than 4 speaker
solutions. Transaural is a term that was still being used very recently by
some researchers at IRcaam -
apparently they had about 3 PhD students working on a new transaural object
for Spat - I don't know whether it ever got released. It wasn't just about
the cross talk cancellation
either, but they were also doing some stuff with HRTFs as well. Ill have a
look at that page anyway tx

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 20:49, Ralph Glasgal  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Transaural is essentially an early version of a crosstalk cancellation
> algorithm if you mean the Cooper/Bauck paper.  But time marches on.  RACE,
> BACCH and a host of products based on these basic equations are now
> available.  Ambiophonics VST is a plugin but only works with Windows
> programs.  Otherwise there is Amtra, Neutron MP, Aria3d, Soundpimp,
> miniDSP,
> etc. or you can program your own using Audiomulch or similar and the RACE
> block diagram.  All these apps allow a good 2.0 or 4.0 recording to be
> reproduced in half/full surround in the horizontal plane using four
> speakers.  All the links are collected at www.ambiophonics.org and RACE is
> in the public domain.  Also lots of AES papers, tutorials, and 4.0 demo
> tracks you can play with.  This technology competes with Ambisonics so
> there
> it is.
>
> Ralph Glasgal
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Augustine
> Leudar
> Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2020 1:33 PM
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: [Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?
>
> Hi there Surrsounders,
> I hope you are all safe and well. So all our installations, audio
> events, and exhibitions etc have obviously been canceled, and we've
> basically been wiped out for the summer so I want to do some binaural work
> (not interactive), something I haven't done for a long time. Can anyone let
> me know what they think is the best binaural VST plugin around at the
> moment  - my favourite so far has been anaglyph - any other
> recommendations? Also, did anyone hear an effective transaural effort (I
> know Thebaut at IRCAM said his transaural spat thing was going to be good
> but I've never heard it, I dont even know if its released ),
> all the best
> Augustine
> --
> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> <
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200405/316
> da2a1/attachment.html
> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200405/316da2a1/attachment.html>
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[Sursound] Best current binaural plugins in your experience ?

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi there Surrsounders,
I hope you are all safe and well. So all our installations, audio
events, and exhibitions etc have obviously been canceled, and we've
basically been wiped out for the summer so I want to do some binaural work
(not interactive), something I haven't done for a long time. Can anyone let
me know what they think is the best binaural VST plugin around at the
moment  - my favourite so far has been anaglyph - any other
recommendations? Also, did anyone hear an effective transaural effort (I
know Thebaut at IRCAM said his transaural spat thing was going to be good
but I've never heard it, I dont even know if its released ),
all the best
Augustine
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Re: [Sursound] analog planner

[Augustine Leudar]

There should be an unsubscribe link near the bottom of this message Lucas

On Wednesday, 19 February 2020, Lucas  wrote:

> Troll bot? Nahh just someone who shouldn't be in this conversation.  Please
> remove me from whatever, this is.
>
> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 9:56 AM Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
> > Analogue trollbot?
> >
> > On Wednesday, 19 February 2020, Steven Boardman <
> boardroomout...@gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Oh dear, this has got very analog……:)
> > >
> > > > On 19 Feb 2020, at 17:26, Lucas  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But do you poop on bagels and fart?
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Feb 16, 2020, 12:07 AM Dan Yotz  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I recall once seeing what i think was an eight channel board with
> quad
> > > >> joysticks on each channel ... in the road case it was around
> 3’x4’x18”
> > > and
> > > >> weighed 2-300 lbs...   sold for cheap... couldn’t bring myself to
> buy
> > it
> > > >> and carry it around...
> > > >>
> > > >> Otherwise I’d recommend getting a heavy duty joystick and replacing
> > the
> > > >> pots with dual analog tapers
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ___
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> > > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu
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> >
> >
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Re: [Sursound] analog planner

[Augustine Leudar]

Any chance of seeing a photo Charlie? I'm not looking to buy just curious -
did you ever make a panner that would do height as well?


On Wed, 19 Feb 2020, 19:17 Charlie Richmond,  wrote:

> >
> >
> > Otherwise I’d recommend getting a heavy duty joystick and replacing the
> > pots with dual analog tapers
> >
>
> I still have a bunch of these left over from when we produced quad
> consoles.  Including the complementary dual M/N taper pots for each axis.
> If anyone wants to buy them, I'm accepting offers...
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> * Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
> 
> * Viber: +16047159441 facebook: charlie.richmond
> * LinkedIn: charlierichmond
> * Over 2.4 million licensed SoundMan-Server audio channels!
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Re: [Sursound] analog planner

[Augustine Leudar]

Analogue trollbot?

On Wednesday, 19 February 2020, Steven Boardman 
wrote:

> Oh dear, this has got very analog……:)
>
> > On 19 Feb 2020, at 17:26, Lucas  wrote:
> >
> > But do you poop on bagels and fart?
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 16, 2020, 12:07 AM Dan Yotz  wrote:
> >
> >> I recall once seeing what i think was an eight channel board with quad
> >> joysticks on each channel ... in the road case it was around 3’x4’x18”
> and
> >> weighed 2-300 lbs...   sold for cheap... couldn’t bring myself to buy it
> >> and carry it around...
> >>
> >> Otherwise I’d recommend getting a heavy duty joystick and replacing the
> >> pots with dual analog tapers
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> >> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>
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Re: [Sursound] analog planner

[Augustine Leudar]

Tx Eero

On Monday, 17 February 2020, Eero Aro  wrote:

> And sorry, no parts list for the Pan/Rotate unit.
>
> Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?

[Augustine Leudar]

Very relevant Hans thanks

On Sunday, 16 February 2020, hans w. koch  wrote:

> interesting discussion!
>
> maybe this is also relevant (from the analogue side of things):
> http://www.knasmusic.com/products/quadmassager/quadmassager.php
>
> and:
> https://koma-elektronik.com/?product=poltergeist-quadraphonic-audio-mixer-
> panner-vca
>
> best
>
> hans w. koch
>
> professor of sound
> academy of media arts cologne
> peter-welter-platz 2, 4. OG
> 50676 koeln
> hans.w.k...@khm.de
> >
> > Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 16:54:53 +
> > From: Augustine Leudar 
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?
> > Message-ID:
> >mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Yeah I actually know someone that did that though she connected them to
> > Max. Jenn Kirby.
>
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?

[Augustine Leudar]

Yeah I actually know someone that did that though she connected them to
Max. Jenn Kirby.

On Sunday, 16 February 2020, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> Le 20-02-16 à 11 h 09, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
>
> > Although obviously a pcb could be analogue... but you know what I
> mean
>
> Yes, of course. I'm not anti analog. :)
>
> What about using string potentiometers?
>
> Marc
>
> >
> > On Sunday, 16 February 2020, Augustine Leudar  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks Marc I'm aware nearly everything has some kind of chip or pcb in
> it
> >> these days even if it "seems" analogue. I really am mainly interested in
> >> "pure" analogue things for this thread preferably with no digital
> >> components whatsoever. I am not anti digital or anything like that just
> >> curious.
> >>
> >> On Sunday, 16 February 2020, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Le 20-02-15 à 12 h 20, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks ,
> >>>> Conan that modular thing looks great. I know a few people who just
> dont
> >>>> like using computers for live electronica  but want to incorporate 3D
> >>> sound
> >>>> - this would great,
> >>>> a lot of them are really into their modular stuff too.
> >>> Many (most?) eurorack modules are using non-analog components. Eurorack
> >>> is not really the vinyl of modular synthesis.
> >>>
> >>> In the case of this Planar2 module, digipots chips could used, or the
> >>> whole thing could be digital, except for the analog pots of the
> joystick
> >>> (for some physically induced control signals). A quick search for
> images
> >>> of "intellijel planar2" reveals its STM32 Arm computer.
> >>>
> >>> Marc
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 16:54, Conan Wynne 
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I had some success in modular using a planar, if you had 2 you could
> do
> >>>>> some interesting stuff in 3D,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://intellijel.com/shop/eurorack/planar-2/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat 15 Feb 2020, 16:32 David McKevy, 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Makes me think of this (for starts), I believe the original is in a
> >>>>> museum
> >>>>>> in London.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> https://reverb.com/item/2011345-polyfusion-qp-1-sound-a-
> >>> round-quad-panner
> >>>>>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 8:16 AM Augustine Leudar <
> >>>>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Marc
> >>>>>>> I mean completely analogue. I use things like the leap or wii for
> >>>>>> digital.
> >>>>>>> I mean if you didn't want to use any software at all.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, 15 February 2020, Marc Lavallée 
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Le 20-02-15 à 07 h 36, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> What was/is around in terms of analogue physical 3D or horizontal
> >>>>>> only
> >>>>>>>>> panners? I've seen the little joystick things on desks. Was
> >>>>> wondering
> >>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>>> else?
> >>>>>>>> Do you mean panners using analog electronics and physical controls
> >>> to
> >>>>>>>> pan the sound through analog only electronics (without any
> computing
> >>>>>>>> involved),
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> or physical controllers as input devices for digital sound
> panners?
> >>>>> For
> >>>>>>>> interactive installations, I built/used/seen:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - big trackballs (like those in vintage video games)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - long levers (like giant joysticks)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - cameras, presence detectors, touch screens...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> B

Re: [Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?

[Augustine Leudar]

Although obviously a pcb could be analogue... but you know what I mean

On Sunday, 16 February 2020, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Thanks Marc I'm aware nearly everything has some kind of chip or pcb in it
> these days even if it "seems" analogue. I really am mainly interested in
> "pure" analogue things for this thread preferably with no digital
> components whatsoever. I am not anti digital or anything like that just
> curious.
>
> On Sunday, 16 February 2020, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
>
>> Le 20-02-15 à 12 h 20, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
>>
>> > Thanks ,
>> > Conan that modular thing looks great. I know a few people who just dont
>> > like using computers for live electronica  but want to incorporate 3D
>> sound
>> > - this would great,
>> > a lot of them are really into their modular stuff too.
>>
>> Many (most?) eurorack modules are using non-analog components. Eurorack
>> is not really the vinyl of modular synthesis.
>>
>> In the case of this Planar2 module, digipots chips could used, or the
>> whole thing could be digital, except for the analog pots of the joystick
>> (for some physically induced control signals). A quick search for images
>> of "intellijel planar2" reveals its STM32 Arm computer.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> >
>> > On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 16:54, Conan Wynne  wrote:
>> >
>> >> I had some success in modular using a planar, if you had 2 you could do
>> >> some interesting stuff in 3D,
>> >>
>> >> https://intellijel.com/shop/eurorack/planar-2/
>> >>
>> >> On Sat 15 Feb 2020, 16:32 David McKevy, 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Makes me think of this (for starts), I believe the original is in a
>> >> museum
>> >>> in London.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> https://reverb.com/item/2011345-polyfusion-qp-1-sound-a-
>> round-quad-panner
>> >>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 8:16 AM Augustine Leudar <
>> >> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi Marc
>> >>>> I mean completely analogue. I use things like the leap or wii for
>> >>> digital.
>> >>>> I mean if you didn't want to use any software at all.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Saturday, 15 February 2020, Marc Lavallée 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>>> Le 20-02-15 à 07 h 36, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> What was/is around in terms of analogue physical 3D or horizontal
>> >>> only
>> >>>>>> panners? I've seen the little joystick things on desks. Was
>> >> wondering
>> >>>>> what
>> >>>>>> else?
>> >>>>> Do you mean panners using analog electronics and physical controls
>> to
>> >>>>> pan the sound through analog only electronics (without any computing
>> >>>>> involved),
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> or physical controllers as input devices for digital sound panners?
>> >> For
>> >>>>> interactive installations, I built/used/seen:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - big trackballs (like those in vintage video games)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - long levers (like giant joysticks)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - cameras, presence detectors, touch screens...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Basically, any controller can be used.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Marc
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ___
>> >>>>> Sursound mailing list
>> >>>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> >>>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
>> >>> here,
>> >>>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Dr. Augustine Leudar
>> >>>> Artistic Director Magik Door
>> >>>> www.magikdoor.net
>> >>>> +44(0)7555784775
>> >>>> -- next part --
>> >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> >>>> URL: <
>> >>>>
>> >> http

Re: [Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks Marc I'm aware nearly everything has some kind of chip or pcb in it
these days even if it "seems" analogue. I really am mainly interested in
"pure" analogue things for this thread preferably with no digital
components whatsoever. I am not anti digital or anything like that just
curious.

On Sunday, 16 February 2020, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> Le 20-02-15 à 12 h 20, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
>
> > Thanks ,
> > Conan that modular thing looks great. I know a few people who just dont
> > like using computers for live electronica  but want to incorporate 3D
> sound
> > - this would great,
> > a lot of them are really into their modular stuff too.
>
> Many (most?) eurorack modules are using non-analog components. Eurorack
> is not really the vinyl of modular synthesis.
>
> In the case of this Planar2 module, digipots chips could used, or the
> whole thing could be digital, except for the analog pots of the joystick
> (for some physically induced control signals). A quick search for images
> of "intellijel planar2" reveals its STM32 Arm computer.
>
> Marc
>
> >
> > On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 16:54, Conan Wynne  wrote:
> >
> >> I had some success in modular using a planar, if you had 2 you could do
> >> some interesting stuff in 3D,
> >>
> >> https://intellijel.com/shop/eurorack/planar-2/
> >>
> >> On Sat 15 Feb 2020, 16:32 David McKevy,  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Makes me think of this (for starts), I believe the original is in a
> >> museum
> >>> in London.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> https://reverb.com/item/2011345-polyfusion-qp-1-sound-
> a-round-quad-panner
> >>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 8:16 AM Augustine Leudar <
> >> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Marc
> >>>> I mean completely analogue. I use things like the leap or wii for
> >>> digital.
> >>>> I mean if you didn't want to use any software at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Saturday, 15 February 2020, Marc Lavallée 
> >> wrote:
> >>>>> Le 20-02-15 à 07 h 36, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> What was/is around in terms of analogue physical 3D or horizontal
> >>> only
> >>>>>> panners? I've seen the little joystick things on desks. Was
> >> wondering
> >>>>> what
> >>>>>> else?
> >>>>> Do you mean panners using analog electronics and physical controls to
> >>>>> pan the sound through analog only electronics (without any computing
> >>>>> involved),
> >>>>>
> >>>>> or physical controllers as input devices for digital sound panners?
> >> For
> >>>>> interactive installations, I built/used/seen:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - big trackballs (like those in vintage video games)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - long levers (like giant joysticks)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - cameras, presence detectors, touch screens...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Basically, any controller can be used.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Marc
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ___
> >>>>> Sursound mailing list
> >>>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >>>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> >>> here,
> >>>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> >>>> Artistic Director Magik Door
> >>>> www.magikdoor.net
> >>>> +44(0)7555784775
> >>>> -- next part --
> >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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Re: [Sursound] analog planner

[Augustine Leudar]

Peter that's amazing thanks so much for posting. I would love to have a go
on it should you ever have time to dig it out!!

On Sunday, 16 February 2020, Peter Carbines 
wrote:

> On 16/02/2020 12:19, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
>> I'm mainly interested in purely analog devices in this thread
>>
>
> The small team I was involved in during the 1970s built a 4-input
> proof-of-concept Ambisonic mixer. We were interested in developing a mixer
> to produce B-format from multitrack recordings, creating an artificial
> soundfield.
>
> It had 360-degree panning ability and radius-vector control on each. Two
> input channels used sine-cosine 360 degree potentiometers derived from
> scrapped electronics, probably radar consoles. Because we were unfunded and
> basically running on 'pocket money', the budget didn't allow for 4
> sine-cosine pots so we designed and built two switchable pan-pots,
> initially 30-degree but planned for an eventual 15 degrees.
>
> Switchable pan-pots consisted of an array of wafer switches with hordes of
> 1% metal-film resistors. Not a build for the faint-hearted, and probably
> not even attempted had we not made use of an early programmable
> calculator!. 15-degree switches were under construction at the time the
> whole project was abandoned. The chassis of the mixer still lies somewhere
> in a heap of discarded electronics at the end of my garage!
>
> Despite its Heath-Robinson (or even Rowland Emett) appearance the mixer
> did work and produced very interesting results.
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] analog planner

[Augustine Leudar]

I'm mainly interested in purely analog devices in this thread, not just the
feel of it. I've been using and making digital devices and controllers for
years to manipulate 3D sound including Arduino, Kinect, Accelerometers,
crystal balls etc etc and most of my exhibitions these days include some
kind of interactive 3D sound, but I am curious as to what was/is available
in the purely analog realm and what can/was be done without any kind of
computer or digital processing.

On Sunday, 16 February 2020, Bo-Erik Sandholm  wrote:

> The Question is it the feel of the controller or no computer involved most
> important?
>
> Create a controller or reuse an old one.
>
> Connect an imu to a mechanical controller of our choice :-)
>
> ohti https://github.com/bossesand/OHTI  can be a starting point.
>
> Bno055 as imu.
> Using Arduino nano v3 gives usb serial connection.
> Esp32 / 8266 can give Wi-Fi, usb or ble connection.
>
> From wish or aliexpress hw cost can be less than 25 £ € very little
> soldering is required.
>
> Bosse
>
>
>
>
>
> Connection device
>
> Den sön 16 feb. 2020 09:07Dan Yotz  skrev:
>
> > I recall once seeing what i think was an eight channel board with quad
> > joysticks on each channel ... in the road case it was around 3’x4’x18”
> and
> > weighed 2-300 lbs...   sold for cheap... couldn’t bring myself to buy it
> > and carry it around...
> >
> > Otherwise I’d recommend getting a heavy duty joystick and replacing the
> > pots with dual analog tapers
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
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Re: [Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?

[Augustine Leudar]

Good question. I also quite like Stockhausens solution of putting musicians
and noise generators on platforms that whirled round the auditorium. Not
practical for most of us though...

On Saturday, 15 February 2020, David McKevy  wrote:

> Yes for azimuth planner!
> Then again, did Varese use a panner for Corbusier Phillip's Pavillion?
>
> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 1:04 PM Fernando Lopez-Lezcano <
> na...@ccrma.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 2/15/20 5:15 AM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>> > Hi Marc
>> > I mean completely analogue. I use things like the leap or wii for
>> digital.
>> > I mean if you didn't want to use any software at all.
>>
>> You need to get one of these:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuth_Co-ordinator
>> :-)
>> -- Fernando
>>
>> https://www.neptunepinkfloyd.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24035
>>
>>
>> > On Saturday, 15 February 2020, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Le 20-02-15 à 07 h 36, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
>> >>
>> >>> What was/is around in terms of analogue physical 3D or horizontal only
>> >>> panners? I've seen the little joystick things on desks. Was wondering
>> >> what
>> >>> else?
>> >>
>> >> Do you mean panners using analog electronics and physical controls to
>> >> pan the sound through analog only electronics (without any computing
>> >> involved),
>> >>
>> >> or physical controllers as input devices for digital sound panners? For
>> >> interactive installations, I built/used/seen:
>> >>
>> >> - big trackballs (like those in vintage video games)
>> >>
>> >> - long levers (like giant joysticks)
>> >>
>> >> - cameras, presence detectors, touch screens...
>> >>
>> >> Basically, any controller can be used.
>> >>
>> >> Marc
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> Sursound mailing list
>> >> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
>> here,
>> >> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>

-- 
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Artistic Director Magik Door
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?

[Augustine Leudar]

Interesting to note that Pink Floyd started to experiment with surround
before Syd Barret left. I never really liked their stuff after he left -
but I would have loved to witness this gig :

https://www.wired.com/2009/05/dayintech-0512/

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 18:03, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano <
na...@ccrma.stanford.edu> wrote:

> On 2/15/20 5:15 AM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > Hi Marc
> > I mean completely analogue. I use things like the leap or wii for
> digital.
> > I mean if you didn't want to use any software at all.
>
> You need to get one of these:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuth_Co-ordinator
> :-)
> -- Fernando
>
> https://www.neptunepinkfloyd.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24035
>
>
> > On Saturday, 15 February 2020, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
> >
> >> Le 20-02-15 à 07 h 36, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
> >>
> >>> What was/is around in terms of analogue physical 3D or horizontal only
> >>> panners? I've seen the little joystick things on desks. Was wondering
> >> what
> >>> else?
> >>
> >> Do you mean panners using analog electronics and physical controls to
> >> pan the sound through analog only electronics (without any computing
> >> involved),
> >>
> >> or physical controllers as input devices for digital sound panners? For
> >> interactive installations, I built/used/seen:
> >>
> >> - big trackballs (like those in vintage video games)
> >>
> >> - long levers (like giant joysticks)
> >>
> >> - cameras, presence detectors, touch screens...
> >>
> >> Basically, any controller can be used.
> >>
> >> Marc
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Sursound mailing list
> >> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> >> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>

-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks ,
Conan that modular thing looks great. I know a few people who just dont
like using computers for live electronica  but want to incorporate 3D sound
- this would great,
a lot of them are really into their modular stuff too.

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 16:54, Conan Wynne  wrote:

> I had some success in modular using a planar, if you had 2 you could do
> some interesting stuff in 3D,
>
> https://intellijel.com/shop/eurorack/planar-2/
>
> On Sat 15 Feb 2020, 16:32 David McKevy,  wrote:
>
> > Makes me think of this (for starts), I believe the original is in a
> museum
> > in London.
> >
> >
> https://reverb.com/item/2011345-polyfusion-qp-1-sound-a-round-quad-panner
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 8:16 AM Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Marc
> > > I mean completely analogue. I use things like the leap or wii for
> > digital.
> > > I mean if you didn't want to use any software at all.
> > >
> > > On Saturday, 15 February 2020, Marc Lavallée 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Le 20-02-15 à 07 h 36, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
> > > >
> > > > > What was/is around in terms of analogue physical 3D or horizontal
> > only
> > > > > panners? I've seen the little joystick things on desks. Was
> wondering
> > > > what
> > > > > else?
> > > >
> > > > Do you mean panners using analog electronics and physical controls to
> > > > pan the sound through analog only electronics (without any computing
> > > > involved),
> > > >
> > > > or physical controllers as input devices for digital sound panners?
> For
> > > > interactive installations, I built/used/seen:
> > > >
> > > > - big trackballs (like those in vintage video games)
> > > >
> > > > - long levers (like giant joysticks)
> > > >
> > > > - cameras, presence detectors, touch screens...
> > > >
> > > > Basically, any controller can be used.
> > > >
> > > > Marc
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Sursound mailing list
> > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> > here,
> > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dr. Augustine Leudar
> > > Artistic Director Magik Door
> > > www.magikdoor.net
> > > +44(0)7555784775
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> > > ___
> > > Sursound mailing list
> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
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> > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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Re: [Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Marc
I mean completely analogue. I use things like the leap or wii for digital.
I mean if you didn't want to use any software at all.

On Saturday, 15 February 2020, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> Le 20-02-15 à 07 h 36, Augustine Leudar a écrit :
>
> > What was/is around in terms of analogue physical 3D or horizontal only
> > panners? I've seen the little joystick things on desks. Was wondering
> what
> > else?
>
> Do you mean panners using analog electronics and physical controls to
> pan the sound through analog only electronics (without any computing
> involved),
>
> or physical controllers as input devices for digital sound panners? For
> interactive installations, I built/used/seen:
>
> - big trackballs (like those in vintage video games)
>
> - long levers (like giant joysticks)
>
> - cameras, presence detectors, touch screens...
>
> Basically, any controller can be used.
>
> Marc
>
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
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Artistic Director Magik Door
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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[Sursound] Analogue 3D / surround sound panners?

[Augustine Leudar]

What was/is around in terms of analogue physical 3D or horizontal only
panners? I've seen the little joystick things on desks. Was wondering what
else?

-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] AES Convention Demo

[Augustine Leudar]

Id have to take an NDA signed in blood and you'd have to put your house as
a deposit for that Stefan ;)

On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 at 14:15, Stefan Schreiber  wrote:

> Hi Augustine
>
> Just to add some further detail:
>
> It is well-known that you can have a convincing stereophonic system
> with 6 speakers, providing a full circle of sound
> in the horizontal plane.
> (Or a 7.1 system, if keeping a "cinema" center channel at 0º and some
> LFE channel.)
>
> (A four-speaker system is probably a compromise...)
>
> Convinving height:
> In which way would your system differ from VBAP?
>
>
> (You said you are applying amplitude panning law.)
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
> Citando Augustine Leudar :
>
> > PS should have said " . I can get a fairly convincing full circle of
> sound
> > in the horizontal plane  with just 4 speakers"
> >
> > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 16:20, Augustine Leudar  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the detailed explanation. I can get a fairly convincing full
> >> circle of sound in the horizontal plane with just ordinary amplitude
> >> panning and the correct panning law - in fact I can get fairly
> convincing
> >> height too using some bespoke techniques I've developed.  - I assume you
> >> mean the gaps between the speaker sin the panning are better filled with
> >> your system ?
> >> The proof is in the pudding of course - Can you recommend a good
> >> ambiophonics plugin I could test in the studio,
> >> all the best
> >> Gus
> >>
> >> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 18:10, Ralph Glasgal 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ambiophonics does not use any HRTF filters, filters of any kind, head
> >>> tracking, special speakers, or custom recordings.  It is fully
> recursive
> >>> and
> >>> provides two easy to use adjustments to optimize the crosstalk
> >>> cancellation
> >>> or adjust to taste.  It is also designed to use narrow speaker angles
> so
> >>> that the pinna direction finding mechanism is optimized for the central
> >>> localization region.  It also provides a full circle of sound in the
> >>> horizontal plane with just four speakers from 4.0 media.  Ambiophonics
> is
> >>> not just about XTC, it also provides envelopment and concert hall
> ambience
> >>> options.  Transaural, BACCH, Sonic Holography, Panorama Mode, TacT,
> Polk
> >>> SDA, VMAX, etc. are some past and presently competing technologies.
> But
> >>> at
> >>> the moment there are more readily available Ambiophonics apps and
> >>> components
> >>> installed worldwide than from other sources.  Probably this is because
> >>> there
> >>> are no licensing fees, these products are affordable, and they work
> with
> >>> standard media like LPs, CDs, SACDs, BDs and of course downloads.  You
> can
> >>> read the AES papers and tutorials at www.ambiophonics.org and there
> are
> >>> loads of comments and posts on the Facebook Ambiophonics forum and
> >>> LinkedIn.
> >>> But there is no substitute for hearing Ambio yourself.  Try one of the
> 4.0
> >>> tracks on the website.
> >>>
> >>> Ralph Glasgal
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


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Company Number : NI635217
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Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
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Re: [Sursound] Ambiophonics Vs Ambisonics

[Augustine Leudar]

It sounds very interesting. I must admit I have some slight reservations
here (I've hear a lot of claims over the years in spatial audio and
skepticism is now my default setting its not personal ) but I would like to
actually hear this before passing further comments. Do I need a special
player to play back two speaker ambiophonics or just to put speakers in the
correct position. If I do could I have a link to a player and a two channel
ambiophonics recording demo . I did look at your website but neither of
these things were immediately obvious - there's a lot of info on there. I
saw the demo page and it said demos below but I could only see a list no
actual links to sounds.? Maybe my browser.
Do All the best
Gus

On Friday, 4 October 2019, Ralph Glasgal  wrote:

> There are a whole bunch of links and descriptions of apps from a variety of
> vendors you can use to try Ambiophonics.  See www.ambiophonics.org  I
> would
> suggest you use two miniDSP boxes to do it rather than just software.  If
> you use the apps you need to load two copies so you can play 4.0 media.
> There are several surround 4.0 recordings made with the Ambiophone or other
> more standard mic arrays in the demo tab from Chesky, etc.  One advantage
> of
> the Ambio speaker placement is that with the speakers very close together
> in
> front and the other pair behind, the pinna function is mostly correct
> compared to having speakers in a square or similar.  Also Ambio can produce
> essentially the full range of ITD up t0 700 microseconds and ILD values of
> up to about 10 dB or what you would have in most concert halls.  If you use
> the BACCH version of XTC loudspeaker binaural you can get the fly buzzing
> in
> your ear.  If you use two additional speakers at the rear, as in
> Envelophonics, you can get a better spatial effect from 2.0 recordings like
> orchestral LPs and CDs.
>
> If you are making your own recordings, then try to have an ITD range up to
> 700 microseconds for side sound sources and also corresponding ILDs of up
> to
> 10 dB for the same side sources in the frequency ranges where both values
> are audible.  For frequencies over about 1500 Hz you just need to see that
> you do not introduce things that would look like pinna response functions.
> The narrow reproduction angle of the speakers will provide a reasonable
> pinna function for the central area and sounds at the far sides do not have
> as strong a pinna function since the ear canal is directly exposed at these
> angles.  Not perfect but a lot better than speakers at 60 degrees.  Also if
> you use the rear Envelophonics speakers this seems to correct even for this
> pinna error at the extreme sides.  Basically the trick is to have the brain
> receive a consistent pattern of localization cue values, values that don't
> contradict one another.
>
> Ralph
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Augustine
> Leudar
> Sent: Friday, October 04, 2019 11:20 AM
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] AES Convention Demo
>
> Thanks for the detailed explanation. I can get a fairly convincing full
> circle of sound in the horizontal plane with just ordinary amplitude
> panning and the correct panning law - in fact I can get fairly convincing
> height too using some bespoke techniques I've developed.  - I assume you
> mean the gaps between the speaker sin the panning are better filled with
> your system ?
> The proof is in the pudding of course - Can you recommend a good
> ambiophonics plugin I could test in the studio,
> all the best
> Gus
>
> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 18:10, Ralph Glasgal 
> wrote:
>
> > Ambiophonics does not use any HRTF filters, filters of any kind, head
> > tracking, special speakers, or custom recordings.  It is fully recursive
> > and
> > provides two easy to use adjustments to optimize the crosstalk
> cancellation
> > or adjust to taste.  It is also designed to use narrow speaker angles so
> > that the pinna direction finding mechanism is optimized for the central
> > localization region.  It also provides a full circle of sound in the
> > horizontal plane with just four speakers from 4.0 media.  Ambiophonics is
> > not just about XTC, it also provides envelopment and concert hall
> ambience
> > options.  Transaural, BACCH, Sonic Holography, Panorama Mode, TacT, Polk
> > SDA, VMAX, etc. are some past and presently competing technologies.  But
> at
> > the moment there are more readily available Ambiophonics apps and
> > components
> > installed worldwide than from other sources.  Probably this is because
> > there
> > are no licensing fees, these products are affordable, and they work with
&g

Re: [Sursound] AES Convention Demo

[Augustine Leudar]

PS should have said " . I can get a fairly convincing full circle of sound
in the horizontal plane  with just 4 speakers"

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 16:20, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Thanks for the detailed explanation. I can get a fairly convincing full
> circle of sound in the horizontal plane with just ordinary amplitude
> panning and the correct panning law - in fact I can get fairly convincing
> height too using some bespoke techniques I've developed.  - I assume you
> mean the gaps between the speaker sin the panning are better filled with
> your system ?
> The proof is in the pudding of course - Can you recommend a good
> ambiophonics plugin I could test in the studio,
> all the best
> Gus
>
> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 18:10, Ralph Glasgal 
> wrote:
>
>> Ambiophonics does not use any HRTF filters, filters of any kind, head
>> tracking, special speakers, or custom recordings.  It is fully recursive
>> and
>> provides two easy to use adjustments to optimize the crosstalk
>> cancellation
>> or adjust to taste.  It is also designed to use narrow speaker angles so
>> that the pinna direction finding mechanism is optimized for the central
>> localization region.  It also provides a full circle of sound in the
>> horizontal plane with just four speakers from 4.0 media.  Ambiophonics is
>> not just about XTC, it also provides envelopment and concert hall ambience
>> options.  Transaural, BACCH, Sonic Holography, Panorama Mode, TacT, Polk
>> SDA, VMAX, etc. are some past and presently competing technologies.  But
>> at
>> the moment there are more readily available Ambiophonics apps and
>> components
>> installed worldwide than from other sources.  Probably this is because
>> there
>> are no licensing fees, these products are affordable, and they work with
>> standard media like LPs, CDs, SACDs, BDs and of course downloads.  You can
>> read the AES papers and tutorials at www.ambiophonics.org and there are
>> loads of comments and posts on the Facebook Ambiophonics forum and
>> LinkedIn.
>> But there is no substitute for hearing Ambio yourself.  Try one of the 4.0
>> tracks on the website.
>>
>> Ralph Glasgal
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
>> Augustine
>> Leudar
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 4:55 PM
>> To: Surround Sound discussion group
>> Subject: Re: [Sursound] AES Convention Demo
>>
>> Curious what's the difference between ambiophonics and transaural? They
>> both imitate hrtfs (ilds it's etc) and attempt to eliminate crosstalk
>> right?
>>
>> On Wednesday, 2 October 2019, Ralph Glasgal 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > We are not on the technical tour list this year but we will be here to
>> host
>> > any who wish to have a personal experience.  You can compare surround
>> > Ambiophonics to Ambisonics and WFS, see how to use/build an Ambiophone
>> > compared to the Soundfield, and learn how to get a full circle of direct
>> > sound in the horizontal plane from standard BD 5.1, Dolby Atmos or
>> similar
>> > surround media.  Call 201-784-0614 or e-mail glas...@ambiophonics.org
>> if
>> > you
>> > are interested.  We can arrange transportation to 4 Piermont Road,
>> > Rockleigh, NJ which is a few miles north of the GW Bridge.
>> >
>> > Ralph Glasgal
>> > www.ambiophonics.org
>> > -- next part --
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/
>> > attachments/20191002/677cf130/attachment.html>
>> > ___
>> > Sursound mailing list
>> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Augustine Leudar
>> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
>> Company Number : NI635217
>> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
>> Belfast BT88LL
>> www.magikdoor.net
>> +44(0)7555784775
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20191002/404
>> 37153/attachment.html
>> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20191002/40437153/attachment.html>
>> >
>> _______
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music

Re: [Sursound] AES Convention Demo

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I can get a fairly convincing full
circle of sound in the horizontal plane with just ordinary amplitude
panning and the correct panning law - in fact I can get fairly convincing
height too using some bespoke techniques I've developed.  - I assume you
mean the gaps between the speaker sin the panning are better filled with
your system ?
The proof is in the pudding of course - Can you recommend a good
ambiophonics plugin I could test in the studio,
all the best
Gus

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 18:10, Ralph Glasgal  wrote:

> Ambiophonics does not use any HRTF filters, filters of any kind, head
> tracking, special speakers, or custom recordings.  It is fully recursive
> and
> provides two easy to use adjustments to optimize the crosstalk cancellation
> or adjust to taste.  It is also designed to use narrow speaker angles so
> that the pinna direction finding mechanism is optimized for the central
> localization region.  It also provides a full circle of sound in the
> horizontal plane with just four speakers from 4.0 media.  Ambiophonics is
> not just about XTC, it also provides envelopment and concert hall ambience
> options.  Transaural, BACCH, Sonic Holography, Panorama Mode, TacT, Polk
> SDA, VMAX, etc. are some past and presently competing technologies.  But at
> the moment there are more readily available Ambiophonics apps and
> components
> installed worldwide than from other sources.  Probably this is because
> there
> are no licensing fees, these products are affordable, and they work with
> standard media like LPs, CDs, SACDs, BDs and of course downloads.  You can
> read the AES papers and tutorials at www.ambiophonics.org and there are
> loads of comments and posts on the Facebook Ambiophonics forum and
> LinkedIn.
> But there is no substitute for hearing Ambio yourself.  Try one of the 4.0
> tracks on the website.
>
> Ralph Glasgal
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Augustine
> Leudar
> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 4:55 PM
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] AES Convention Demo
>
> Curious what's the difference between ambiophonics and transaural? They
> both imitate hrtfs (ilds it's etc) and attempt to eliminate crosstalk
> right?
>
> On Wednesday, 2 October 2019, Ralph Glasgal 
> wrote:
>
> > We are not on the technical tour list this year but we will be here to
> host
> > any who wish to have a personal experience.  You can compare surround
> > Ambiophonics to Ambisonics and WFS, see how to use/build an Ambiophone
> > compared to the Soundfield, and learn how to get a full circle of direct
> > sound in the horizontal plane from standard BD 5.1, Dolby Atmos or
> similar
> > surround media.  Call 201-784-0614 or e-mail glas...@ambiophonics.org if
> > you
> > are interested.  We can arrange transportation to 4 Piermont Road,
> > Rockleigh, NJ which is a few miles north of the GW Bridge.
> >
> > Ralph Glasgal
> > www.ambiophonics.org
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/
> > attachments/20191002/677cf130/attachment.html>
> > _______
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
> www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20191002/404
> 37153/attachment.html
> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20191002/40437153/attachment.html>
> >
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit
> account or options, view archives and so on.
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] AES Convention Demo

[Augustine Leudar]

Curious what's the difference between ambiophonics and transaural? They
both imitate hrtfs (ilds it's etc) and attempt to eliminate crosstalk
right?

On Wednesday, 2 October 2019, Ralph Glasgal 
wrote:

> We are not on the technical tour list this year but we will be here to host
> any who wish to have a personal experience.  You can compare surround
> Ambiophonics to Ambisonics and WFS, see how to use/build an Ambiophone
> compared to the Soundfield, and learn how to get a full circle of direct
> sound in the horizontal plane from standard BD 5.1, Dolby Atmos or similar
> surround media.  Call 201-784-0614 or e-mail glas...@ambiophonics.org if
> you
> are interested.  We can arrange transportation to 4 Piermont Road,
> Rockleigh, NJ which is a few miles north of the GW Bridge.
>
> Ralph Glasgal
> www.ambiophonics.org
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/
> attachments/20191002/677cf130/attachment.html>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Richard,
I have to admit I am slightly confused by your response and wonder if what
we are both referring too as time alignment and even DBAP are the same
thing. However I am quite distracted at the moment  I am currently working
on my next installation so don't really have time to giver this the
concentration it deserves - perhaps we could have a god chat about this
early September as it is of obvious interest.  PS I will also be PMing you
about another matter,
all the best,
Augustine

On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 18:26, Richard Foss  wrote:

> Just catching up on your comment about time alignment with DBAP, Gus.
>
> I do think its useful to use delays - so for a particular real source
> channel, delay its play out from a speaker far from the virtual source
> longer than from a speaker close to the virtual source. With DBAP the
> source channel will play from all speakers, albeit with different
> amplitudes. For a person in an installation standing close to a further
> speaker, the precedence effect could well come into play without
> appropriate delays, as I see it.
>
> On 2019/08/18 1:26 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
> > point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of
> using
> > amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
> > spot, especially for walk through installations.
> >
> > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
> >> line not a circle"
> >> Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
> >> ICST. You can also try jamona.
> >>
> >> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine
> even
> >>> though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
> >>> directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really
> well,
> >>> Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it.
> You
> >>> can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a
> straight
> >>> line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker
> to the
> >>> next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line
> rather
> >>> than a circle.
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
> >>> jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hey everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for
> an
> >>>> irregular speaker array.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an
> installation
> >>>> (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long
> hallway
> >>>> and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
> >>>> overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they
> pass
> >>>> through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human
> walking
> >>>> speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
> >>>>
> >>>> A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN
> but
> >>>> the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong
> direction,
> >>>> esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards
> the
> >>>> floor.
> >>>>
> >>>> B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers
> >>>> in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array
> was
> >>>> 7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I
> make
> >>>> the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played
> the
> >>>> sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).
> >>>>
> >>>> 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
> >>>>
> >>>> 4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
> >>>> irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal?
> Something
>

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Richard
Just arranging nephew flighrs will reply in due course

On Monday, 19 August 2019, Richard Foss  wrote:

> Just catching up on your comment about time alignment with DBAP, Gus.
>
> I do think its useful to use delays - so for a particular real source
> channel, delay its play out from a speaker far from the virtual source
> longer than from a speaker close to the virtual source. With DBAP the
> source channel will play from all speakers, albeit with different
> amplitudes. For a person in an installation standing close to a further
> speaker, the precedence effect could well come into play without
> appropriate delays, as I see it.
>
> On 2019/08/18 1:26 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
>> also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
>> point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of using
>> amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
>> spot, especially for walk through installations.
>>
>> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar > >
>> wrote:
>>
>> *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
>>> line not a circle"
>>> Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
>>> ICST. You can also try jamona.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar <
>>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine even
>>>> though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
>>>> directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really
>>>> well,
>>>> Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it. You
>>>> can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a straight
>>>> line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker to
>>>> the
>>>> next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line
>>>> rather
>>>> than a circle.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
>>>> jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for an
>>>>> irregular speaker array.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an installation
>>>>> (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long
>>>>> hallway
>>>>> and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
>>>>> overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they pass
>>>>> through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human
>>>>> walking
>>>>> speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
>>>>>
>>>>> A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN
>>>>> but
>>>>> the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong
>>>>> direction,
>>>>> esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards the
>>>>> floor.
>>>>>
>>>>> B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers
>>>>> in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array
>>>>> was
>>>>> 7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I
>>>>> make
>>>>> the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played the
>>>>> sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
>>>>> irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal?
>>>>> Something
>>>>> like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the
>>>>> ability to
>>>>> calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than
>>>>> having to
>>>>> scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by
>>>>> hand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks so much,
>>>>&g

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

By the way Jonathan,
If I were you Id stick with Spat - its probably the most flexible and
advanced of all spatial audio packages and worth working through the
learning curve- Ive been thinking of swapping over to it for quite a while
myself !!

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 18:23, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Well DBAP is just amplitude panning on irregular speaker arrays the ones
> ive used it didnt reall matte rwhat direction the speaker was pointing.
>  Im not sure if Spat specifies speaker directions but if I remember when
> Thibaut Carpentier came to Sarc he did show us some flashy spatial reverbs
>  that did take account of which direction the sound source was pointing.
> You could banghim an email and see what he says ,
>
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 17:08, Jonathan Kawchuk 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks so much Augustine! I’m actually taking a lot of existing 3d
>> signals and trying to squish them into this irregular 12 channel setup. HOA
>> and 7.1 mostly as well as signals from Sound Particles so SPAT Revolution
>> has been helpful (though ICST looks amazing), even though Im not automating
>> movement at that point. Trying to keep as much of the workflow channel
>> based as possible.
>>
>> 1. There seems to be an issue with directionality of speakers in SPAT
>> when I select DBAP. Some point left and others point right when really I
>> want them all to point towards the floor. Is this just a user interface
>> problem? Does DBAP treat speakers as omnidirectional?
>> 2. Good to know about not using delays for non-sweet spot dependant
>> projects. Would same go with normalization?
>> 3. Fantastic about REW. Do you know of any tools that can figure out the
>> coordinates of irregular speakers just from a sweep or test signal so I
>> dont have to measure irregular speaker installations by hand?
>>
>> Also looking at GRM Spaces
>>
>> rew
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> Jon
>> On Aug 18, 2019, 5:26 AM -0600, Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>, wrote:
>> > also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
>> > point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of
>> using
>> > amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
>> > spot, especially for walk through installations.
>> >
>> > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
>> > > line not a circle"
>> > > Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
>> > > ICST. You can also try jamona.
>> > >
>> > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works
>> fine even
>> > > > though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
>> > > > directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really
>> well,
>> > > > Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with
>> it. You
>> > > > can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a
>> straight
>> > > > line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one
>> speaker to the
>> > > > next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line
>> rather
>> > > > than a circle.
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
>> > > > jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hey everyone,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session
>> for an
>> > > > > irregular speaker array.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an
>> installation
>> > > > > (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a
>> long hallway
>> > > > > and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
>> > > > > overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as
>> they pass
>> > > > > through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human
>> walking
>> > > > > speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

Well DBAP is just amplitude panning on irregular speaker arrays the ones
ive used it didnt reall matte rwhat direction the speaker was pointing.
 Im not sure if Spat specifies speaker directions but if I remember when
Thibaut Carpentier came to Sarc he did show us some flashy spatial reverbs
 that did take account of which direction the sound source was pointing.
You could banghim an email and see what he says ,

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 17:08, Jonathan Kawchuk 
wrote:

> Thanks so much Augustine! I’m actually taking a lot of existing 3d signals
> and trying to squish them into this irregular 12 channel setup. HOA and 7.1
> mostly as well as signals from Sound Particles so SPAT Revolution has been
> helpful (though ICST looks amazing), even though Im not automating movement
> at that point. Trying to keep as much of the workflow channel based as
> possible.
>
> 1. There seems to be an issue with directionality of speakers in SPAT when
> I select DBAP. Some point left and others point right when really I want
> them all to point towards the floor. Is this just a user interface problem?
> Does DBAP treat speakers as omnidirectional?
> 2. Good to know about not using delays for non-sweet spot dependant
> projects. Would same go with normalization?
> 3. Fantastic about REW. Do you know of any tools that can figure out the
> coordinates of irregular speakers just from a sweep or test signal so I
> dont have to measure irregular speaker installations by hand?
>
> Also looking at GRM Spaces
>
> rew
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Jon
> On Aug 18, 2019, 5:26 AM -0600, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>, wrote:
> > also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
> > point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of
> using
> > amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
> > spot, especially for walk through installations.
> >
> > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
> > > line not a circle"
> > > Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
> > > ICST. You can also try jamona.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine
> even
> > > > though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
> > > > directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really
> well,
> > > > Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it.
> You
> > > > can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a
> straight
> > > > line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker
> to the
> > > > next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line
> rather
> > > > than a circle.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
> > > > jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hey everyone,
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session
> for an
> > > > > irregular speaker array.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an
> installation
> > > > > (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long
> hallway
> > > > > and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
> > > > > overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they
> pass
> > > > > through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human
> walking
> > > > > speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
> > > > >
> > > > > A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN
> but
> > > > > the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong
> direction,
> > > > > esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down
> towards the
> > > > > floor.
> > > > >
> > > > > B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7
> speakers
> > > > > in a surround setup approx 1

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of using
amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
spot, especially for walk through installations.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
> line not a circle"
> Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
> ICST. You can also try jamona.
>
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
>> I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine even
>> though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
>> directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really well,
>> Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it. You
>> can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a straight
>> line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker to the
>> next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line rather
>> than a circle.
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
>> jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>> I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for an
>>> irregular speaker array.
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an installation
>>> (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long hallway
>>> and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
>>> overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they pass
>>> through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human walking
>>> speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
>>>
>>>A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN but
>>> the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong direction,
>>> esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards the
>>> floor.
>>>
>>>B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
>>>
>>> 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers
>>> in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array was
>>> 7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I make
>>> the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played the
>>> sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).
>>>
>>> 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
>>>
>>> 4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
>>> irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal? Something
>>> like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the ability to
>>> calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than having to
>>> scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by hand.
>>>
>>> Thanks so much,
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> -- next part --
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190817/6e4ed719/attachment.html
>>> >
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>>> Size: 123847 bytes
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>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Augustine Leudar
>> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
>> Company Number : NI635217
>> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
>> Belfast BT88LL
>> www.magikdoor.net
>> +44(0)7555784775
>>
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
> www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
>
>

-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

*should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a line
not a circle"
Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn ICST.
You can also try jamona.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine even
> though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
> directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really well,
> Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it. You
> can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a straight
> line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker to the
> next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line rather
> than a circle.
>
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for an
>> irregular speaker array.
>>
>>
>> 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an installation
>> (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long hallway
>> and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
>> overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they pass
>> through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human walking
>> speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
>>
>>A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN but
>> the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong direction,
>> esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards the
>> floor.
>>
>>B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
>>
>> 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers in
>> a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array was 7+4
>> (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I make the
>> convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played the sweep)
>> or 1m (where the microphone array was).
>>
>> 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
>>
>> 4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
>> irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal? Something
>> like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the ability to
>> calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than having to
>> scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by hand.
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
> www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
>
>

-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Listening to the neural network gradient norms during training

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Gary,
This is really interesting and has some similar ground wih my Phd which was
related to sonifying data from electrical signals in tree roots using
spatial audio.

https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/LEON_a_01338#.V7uluJgrKhc

Full text and phd can be found here :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/profile/Augustine_Leudar/amp

And theres some vids here on fifferent ways I sonified data/ software etc

http://www.augustineleudar.com/Offline%20Website/indexphd.html

It was an arts project as well as a science project so the aesthetics of
the sound were very impotant to me as well. I tend th think of the
mycorhizal network as a potential neural net myself
Just on hols at rhe momet but will look at your project in more detail whe
I get back
All the best
Gus



On Thursday, 8 August 2019, Gary Gallagher  wrote:

> http://blog.christianperone.com/2019/08/listening-to-the-
> neural-network-gradient-norms-during-training/
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-- 
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Company Number : NI635217
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Re: [Sursound] The Acoustics of Domes

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Sean
Ive lots of experuence doing 3d sound in domes. Feel free to PM me
Best
Gus

On Wednesday, 7 August 2019, Sean Devonport 
wrote:

> Hey there everyone! Hope you're all well.
>
> I wanted to ask if anyone on the group has experience setting up a
> multichannel rig for a dome setup? Specifically designed to play
> Ambisonics.
>
> I've been working with a team looking to build a VR hemispherical dome that
> can display 360 video alongside Ambisonic content. The design for the dome
> structure is complete and now we're just figuring out the sound component.
> The sound is meant to fit seamlessly, and no obstruction should be on the
> floor.
>
> The dome is roughly 7m diameter, and built out of a fibre glass type
> material. We're planning to have a two layer type sound setup, so with
> roughly 14 speakers per layer plus a voice of god and a sub so (14-14-1.1).
> I was thinking that it could be an interesting idea to mount the sub in the
> ceiling above the VOG position, my reasoning being that the sub should
> emanate evenly across the floor of the dome, and it would prevent the need
> to have multiple subs outside the dome structure on the floor.
>
> I've never setup in a dome before and I can imagine the acoustics must be a
> little strange. Upon watching this video (
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpdRYv9xA9w), I seem to get the feeling
> the
> task may get quite interesting. I'm hoping someone may have some experience
> with this.
>
> Some problems that I think may occur:
> 1. A boomy bass at floor level.
> 2. Room resonances and standing waves that don't seem to be very well
> studied.
>
> I think first port of call for the Ambisonic setup is to ensure that each
> speaker is calibrated to be the same loudness and time delay at the
> listening position. From there, I've been looking into applying an averaged
> DRC filter over the entire listening space to each loudspeaker to try get
> the most accurate speaker response for the listening area although I know
> this is quite a tricky challenge. I'm hoping that the DRC may help to
> mitigate some of the room resonances, however, I'd love to get a second (or
> more) opinion on how this would affect the setup.
>
> Anyone with any advice or resources on this would be very much appreciated!
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --
> Sean Devonport
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-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
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Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic Hand Controller

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Justin,
 Ive done similar things with a phone , a leap motion , a kinect and a wii
controller ,
This kind of thing :

https://vimeo.com/234689992

best,
Gus

On Fri, 26 Jul 2019 at 21:43, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> Hi Justin,
>
> There's many DIY solutions,
>
> but you can try this fine Android app: https://sensors2.org/osc/
>
> or the Bitalino R-IoT : http://ismm.ircam.fr/riot/
>
> Marc
>
> Le 19-07-26 à 15 h 01, Justin Kuhn a écrit :
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > I am looking into making a controller in which I harness roll, pitch, and
> > yaw from my phone or a vr controller for real-time control of the
> > orientation of a soundfield.  I want to hook it up using OSC to Reaper or
> > Supercollider either wirelessly (preferred) or through USB (if I have
> to).
> > I have a few reasons I want to do this.
> >
> >   - I want to do real-time encoding and decoding with a controller that
> can
> > add expressive qualities with my hands for 4.0 performance purposes
> >   - I want to better calibrate binaural playback through traditional
> > headphones for production purposes
> >   - I hope to avoid using a headset for ambisonic production entirely.
> It's
> > so much easier to turn my hand around very quickly than it is to use my
> > head.
> >   - Would make a cool pairing with Wekinator.
> >
> > Has anyone done this, or seen it done?  I'd love some tips and
> suggestions
> > before I get started.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> > *Justin Kuhn*
> > 360/VR Video and Audio Production
> > justinkuhnmedia.com
> > Cell  |  828-403-3171
> > He, Him, His
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Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Spat revolution

[Augustine Leudar]

I used them Dan. There just like anything else bit of a learning curve but
seem to work really well and some very cool tricks and effects
I mainly use icst in max but have been meaning to swap to spat for ages as
the have dbap and interesting reverb , transaural etc

On Wednesday, 17 July 2019, dan2...@yotz.org  wrote:

> It's pretty amazing, but also quite costly, so haven't done more than play
> with it...
>
> Does anyone have experience with how it compares to IRCAM's SPAT
> extensions for Max?   Certainly more affordable and I've wanted to try
> those but have been worried that it was left to be too difficult to use in
> production.
>
> -Dan
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
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Re: [Sursound] Interatcive visuals with interaactive spatial audio

[Augustine Leudar]

If anyones interested the visual arts company is called Kimatica and they
can be found here : www.kimatica.net

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 15:30, Steven Boardman 
wrote:

> Awesome Gus, thanks for sharing
> It really would be fantastic in a dome.
>
> Best
>
> Steve
>
>
> > On 10 Jul 2019, at 15:09, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
> >
> > I thought this might be of interest to some of you. I have been working
> > with a visual arts studio recently who create interactive visuals that
> > track peoples movements and convert them into strange shapes on the
> screen.
> > At the moment its on large screens so I have speakers lining the edge and
> > behind the screen so that the audio tracks the silhouettes as they cross
> > the screen though I look forward to working with dome projections
> (contact
> > me if you do dome projections !!) . I use granular synthesis to morph
> > sounds in response to dta and spatialise with max so theres a really nice
> > integration between the movement of the people and the sounds and
> visuals.
> > This project was on a very large screen at the Athens science festival
> this
> > year :
> >
> > https://vimeo.com/341857013
> >
> > all the best
> > Gus
> > --
> > Dr. Augustine Leudar
> > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > Company Number : NI635217
> > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > Belfast BT88LL
> > www.magikdoor.net
> > +44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Interatcive visuals with interaactive spatial audio

[Augustine Leudar]

Kinect

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 15:20, Richard Foss  wrote:

> Thanks Gus, looks great! How are the movements being tracked?
>
> Richard.
>
>
> Professor Richard Foss
> Computer Science Department
> Rhodes University
> Grahamstown 6140
> South Africa
>
> Tel: +27 46 622 8294
> Cell: +27 83 288 9354
>
>
>
> > On 10 Jul 2019, at 16:12, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
> >
> > Should of course say  Interactive visuals with Interactive spatial
> audio!!
> >
> > On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 15:09, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com <mailto:augustineleu...@gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I thought this might be of interest to some of you. I have been working
> >> with a visual arts studio recently who create interactive visuals that
> >> track peoples movements and convert them into strange shapes on the
> screen.
> >> At the moment its on large screens so I have speakers lining the edge
> and
> >> behind the screen so that the audio tracks the silhouettes as they cross
> >> the screen though I look forward to working with dome projections
> (contact
> >> me if you do dome projections !!) . I use granular synthesis to morph
> >> sounds in response to dta and spatialise with max so theres a really
> nice
> >> integration between the movement of the people and the sounds and
> visuals.
> >> This project was on a very large screen at the Athens science festival
> this
> >> year :
> >>
> >> https://vimeo.com/341857013
> >>
> >> all the best
> >> Gus
> >> --
> >> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> >> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> >> Company Number : NI635217
> >> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> >> Belfast BT88LL
> >> www.magikdoor.net
> >> +44(0)7555784775
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Augustine Leudar
> > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > Company Number : NI635217
> > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > Belfast BT88LL
> > www.magikdoor.net <http://www.magikdoor.net/>
> > +44(0)7555784775
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
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Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Interatcive visuals with interaactive spatial audio

[Augustine Leudar]

Should of course say  Interactive visuals with Interactive spatial audio!!

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 15:09, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> I thought this might be of interest to some of you. I have been working
> with a visual arts studio recently who create interactive visuals that
> track peoples movements and convert them into strange shapes on the screen.
> At the moment its on large screens so I have speakers lining the edge and
> behind the screen so that the audio tracks the silhouettes as they cross
> the screen though I look forward to working with dome projections (contact
> me if you do dome projections !!) . I use granular synthesis to morph
> sounds in response to dta and spatialise with max so theres a really nice
> integration between the movement of the people and the sounds and visuals.
> This project was on a very large screen at the Athens science festival this
> year :
>
> https://vimeo.com/341857013
>
> all the best
> Gus
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
> www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
>
>

-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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[Sursound] Interatcive visuals with interaactive spatial audio

[Augustine Leudar]

I thought this might be of interest to some of you. I have been working
with a visual arts studio recently who create interactive visuals that
track peoples movements and convert them into strange shapes on the screen.
At the moment its on large screens so I have speakers lining the edge and
behind the screen so that the audio tracks the silhouettes as they cross
the screen though I look forward to working with dome projections (contact
me if you do dome projections !!) . I use granular synthesis to morph
sounds in response to dta and spatialise with max so theres a really nice
integration between the movement of the people and the sounds and visuals.
This project was on a very large screen at the Athens science festival this
year :

https://vimeo.com/341857013

all the best
Gus
-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Speaker array advice

[Augustine Leudar]

I guess you could have 12 first ring, 8 second, 4 third and one eye of god.
We localise worse directly ove rour heads anyway so to many speakers at the
very top are a biut of a waste.
Also it depends if you only want to use ambisonics or not.


On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 11:35, Tom Slater  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I’m looking for some advice on speaker speaker set ups as we’re moving
> studio so have the perfect opportunity to rethink our current array.
>
> At the moment we have 25 x Genelec 8030s and 2 x Genelec 7050 subs.
>
> Our current array is 3 x rings of 8 speakers. First ring at floor level,
> second at head height, third at 4 meters. The 25th speaker is in the center
> of the ceiling. The two subs are at opposite ends of the room.
>
> Our new space measures 6.5m X 7.5m X 5m high.
>
> We plan to place our workstation in the centre of the space. And we use
> Blue Ripple Rapture 3D Advanced as our primary decoder.
>
> Any thoughts or advice on alternative arrays with this amount of speakers
> will be greatly appreciated. Especially if anyone has any experience in
> using more speakers on horizontal plane and fewer for elevation?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Tom
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-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Augustine Leudar]

by line of sght - I mean we do installations that have walls , dence trees
and foliage , all sorts of stuff in the way - so IR , though it looks like
a neat idea and I think preferable to wifi in some ways - wouldnt work for
us  Even wifi fails in some situations where walls are thick.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2019 at 22:19, Stefan Schreiber  wrote:

> Citando Augustine Leudar :
>
> > sounds great  -  but can it reflect through castle walls ?
>
> - -
>
> I wouldn’t count on such effects...
>
> St.
>
> > On Sat, 1 Jun 2019 at 19:50, Stefan Schreiber 
> wrote:
> >
> >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Fi
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  “Direct line of sight is not necessary for Li-Fi to transmit a signal;
> >>
> >>  light reflected off the walls can achieve 70 Mbit/s[1].”
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  It all works in a very similar fashion as this “soundbar marketing
> >>
> >>  B.S.“...  < g >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Best,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Stefan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  P.S.: Hu? Eh?! 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Citando Bo-Erik Sandholm :
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Hyunchae_Chun/publication/259889506_A_3-Gbs_single-LED_OFDM-based_wireless_VLC_link_using_a_gallium_nitride_m_LED/links/577cd2f708ae355e74f2b06d/A-3-Gb-s-single-LED-OFDM-based-wireless-VLC-link-using-a-gallium-nitride-m-LED.pdf
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>3 Gb/s on common led...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>I Don't get the hu?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Li-Fi is a coming standard for high bandwidth local light based
> network.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Bo-Erik
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Den lör 1 juni 2019 19:11David Pickett  skrev:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Eh?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>D :)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 19:01 01-06-19, you wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64Optical digital
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>bandwidth using LED as a transmitter is without problem 1+
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Mbit/s.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Different designs have differet limits.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>B
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Den lör 1 juni 2019 13:49David Pickett  skrev:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Ligações:
> >>
> >>  -
> >>
> >>  [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbit/s
> >>
> >>  -- next part --
> >>
> >>  An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >>
> >>  URL: <
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190601/2512acc2/attachment.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  ___
> >>
> >>  Sursound mailing list
> >>
> >>  Sursound@music.vt.edu
> >>
> >>  https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> >>
> >>  edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
> > --
> >
> >  Dr. Augustine Leudar
> >
> >  Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> >
> >  Company Number : NI635217
> >
> >  Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> >
> >  Belfast BT88LL
> >
> >  www.magikdoor.net[1]
> >
> >  +44(0)7555784775
> >
> >  -- next part --
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> >
> >
> >  ___
> >
> >  Sursound mailing list
> >
> >
> > surso...@music.vt.eduhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
> -
> > unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
>
>
> Ligações:
> -
> [1] http://www.magikdoor.net
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-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Augustine Leudar]

sounds great  -  but can it reflect through castle walls ?

On Sat, 1 Jun 2019 at 19:50, Stefan Schreiber  wrote:

> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Fi
>
> “Direct line of sight is not necessary for Li-Fi to transmit a signal;
> light reflected off the walls can achieve 70 Mbit/s[1].”
>
> It all works in a very similar fashion as this “soundbar marketing
> B.S.“...  < g >
>
> Best,
>
> Stefan
>
> P.S.: Hu? Eh?! 
>
> Citando Bo-Erik Sandholm :
>
> >
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Hyunchae_Chun/publication/259889506_A_3-Gbs_single-LED_OFDM-based_wireless_VLC_link_using_a_gallium_nitride_m_LED/links/577cd2f708ae355e74f2b06d/A-3-Gb-s-single-LED-OFDM-based-wireless-VLC-link-using-a-gallium-nitride-m-LED.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> >  3 Gb/s on common led...
> >
> >  I Don't get the hu?
> >
> >
> >
> >  Li-Fi is a coming standard for high bandwidth local light based network.
> >
> >
> >
> >  Bo-Erik
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Den lör 1 juni 2019 19:11David Pickett  skrev:
> >
> >> Eh?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  D :)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  At 19:01 01-06-19, you wrote:
> >>
> >>  Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64Optical digital
> >>
> >>  bandwidth using LED as a transmitter is without problem 1+
> >>
> >>  Mbit/s.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Different designs have differet limits.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  B
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Den lör 1 juni 2019 13:49David Pickett  skrev:
>
>
>
> Ligações:
> -
> [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbit/s
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>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Augustine Leudar]

 "I'm deeply ~unimpressed~ by how poor 5GHz Wi-Fi
signals are at penetrating solid walls and diffracting or reflecting
round objects.  "

Thatss exactly the issues we found at several shows. We do a lot of stuff
wher eline of site would simply be impossible though.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2019 at 10:16, Chris Woolf  wrote:

>
> On 31/05/2019 20:57, Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote:
> > https://fmarques.org/ronja-diy-optical-data/
> > If you want to diy instead of buying, seems like a complete design.
> >
> > Optical distribution of data/digital sound.
> >
> Thanks for the link, and the research.
>
> While line-of-sight is a limitation I have been impressed by how well
> conference translation systems using IR headphones have worked in
> practice, and can imagine that a little planning and elevation could
> overcome this issue. I'm deeply ~unimpressed~ by how poor 5GHz Wi-Fi
> signals are at penetrating solid walls and diffracting or reflecting
> round objects.
>
> Chris Woolf
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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> ___
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>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] wifi audio (was Re: Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.)

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks Chris -
by multichannel I mean , basically, surround sound. So stereo is two
channels -
but it woiuld be nice to, for example, broadcast 8 or 16 seperate signals
to 8 or 16  seperate speakers each 100 metres apart
.I have used the senheizer in ear montitors to do things like this but you
can only go fifty metres.
I often have to run several km of cables at events to speakers and I would
love not to have to - of course they still need power
but we;ve previously got round this with several low power low noise
portable IP6 rated generators.
I was wondering why Senheizers had a short distance range but good sound
whereas my walkie talkies
could go very far but had crap audio - youve answered the question tx.

On Thu, 30 May 2019 at 17:07, Chris Woolf  wrote:

> Answering this specific question...
>
> On 30/05/2019 10:42, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > ... I had some walkie talkies that had a
> > range of one KM with admitedly terrible audio (surely this could be
> > improved) . Whereas Senheiser in ear monitors have a  really short
> distance
> > range of around 40 metres and use much higher electromagnetic frequencies
> > ((863 mhz) . Why is it something cant be done with the same sort of range
> > as the walkie talkies but for.multichammel audio (according to wikipedia
> > 30 - 400 mhz)   ?
>
> Walkie talkies run on a 12.5kHz narrow band, and need ~50kHz of channel
> space. Broadcast quality FM (as in radio mics) uses a channel space of
> ~250kHz. Given than channel "skirts" are quite a bit wider multiple
> local channels cannot sit close to each other, and are commonly spaced
> ~500kHz apart. They also have to avoid numerical frequencies which would
> cause intermodulation. Thus remarkably few analogue radio channels can
> fit into a single (8MHz) TV channel space. The usual answer is ~12 at
> best. Some claim more but range and mutual interference may suffer. With
> digital modulation this can improve to ~20 because the effects of
> interference are reduced.
>
> Range is directly related to bandwidth, transmission power, and RF
> signal-to-noise limitations of the receiver. Narrow band with limited
> audio bandwidth and restricted (audio) signal-to-noise is a much easier
> task with a couple of AA cells than 20kHz audio with 100dB (companded)
> dynamic range. Digital radio mics have been even harder to make that can
> modulate something that equates to full broadcast bandwidth and dynamic
> range into the the same 250kHz bandwidth as analogue, and with roughly
> the same range/battery power.
>
> I've no idea what the .multichannel audio is - can you elaborate? And I
> can't imaging that there is any spectrum clear in the 30-400MHz region.
>
> Chris Woolf
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] wifi audio (was Re: Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.)

[Augustine Leudar]

Leaving aside the power issue for now and with regard to multichannel audio
for shows as opposed to home use. I had some walkie talkies that had a
range of one KM with admitedly terrible audio (surely this could be
improved) . Whereas Senheiser in ear monitors have a  really short distance
range of around 40 metres and use much higher electromagnetic frequencies
((863 mhz) . Why is it something cant be done with the same sort of range
as the walkie talkies but for.multichammel audio (according to wikipedia
30 - 400 mhz)   ?


On Wednesday, 29 May 2019, Wim  wrote:

> Dante/AVB have a latency under 5 ms, transporting many channels, even @96
> kHz. It can be done. Just not wireless.
>
> The major problem with wireless lays in the re-authentication that occurs
> after a preset period. That takes up to several hundred millisecs. Not a
> problem for a download, or viewing a webpage. Big problem for low-latency
> streaming. Running without any encryption makes it less, but then you also
> need a good S/R on the wireless side to stop it from having other problems,
> like switching channels, or speed.
>
> Apple's solution for AirPlay is having a big buffer in their devices. I
> believe the old Airport Express has 1 to 4 MB allocated for streaming
> buffer, resulting in seconds of latency. Not a problem for playback.
>
> BT is even far worse, and the range is too limited.
>
> I've tried most of the possibilities, with Apple devices, Raspberry Pi and
> ESP8266. It works. It's just not reliable. I've used it for a little while,
> for recording in forests, where there's no neighbouring wifi to be found.
> I've reverted back to VHF wireless mics. Less of a hassle.
>
> Just my 2 eurocents.
>
> Wim
>
> Op wo 29 mei 2019 om 17:41 schreef mgraves mstvp.com :
>
> > Agreed. Most of what I think of as the "local signal processing" is quite
> > speedy. Packetization delay is never less than 20 ms. Transmission delay
> > dependent upon the network and distance. Poorly designed network elements
> > lead to buffer bloat, which increases latency dramatically.
> >
> > The very latest DECT chipsets are able to deliver a 12.5 kHz audio path
> > from a microphone. Not sure how that's done. DECT is quite opaque. It
> > remains the most common approach to a real-time wireless link built
> > specifically for streaming audio.
> >
> > Michael Graves
> > mgra...@mstvp.com
> > http://www.mgraves.org
> > o(713) 861-4005
> > c(713) 201-1262
> > sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
> > skype mjgraves
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sursound  On Behalf Of Chris Woolf
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2019 10:29 AM
> > To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] wifi audio (was Re: Deconstructing soundbar
> > marketing B.S.)
> >
> >
> > On 28/05/2019 19:47, Marc Lavallée wrote:
> > > Le 28/05/2019 à 13:48, mgraves mstvp.com a écrit :
> > >
> > > 
> > > The latency is not only caused by the packetization; the transmission
> > > chain looks like:
> > >
> > > (microphone -> ADC -> encoding -> BT transmission) -> (BT reception ->
> > > decoding) -> (SIP + encoding -> IP transmission) -> (IP reception ->
> > > SIP + decoding) -> (DAC -> loudspeaker)
> > >
> > True enough, but the ADC, encoding, decoding and DAC elements can be
> > reduced to <3ms (as happens with some of the best recent digital radio
> > mics), which does indeed indicate that the intermediate stages are the
> ones
> > that really do the harm.
> >
> > A while back I had to make a short range speech reinforcer for a friend
> > with a damaged larynx. It had to use an analogue pathway because no
> > (affordable at the time) digital path had anything like low enough
> latency
> > to permit normal, unstilted conversation. A target figure ~has~ to be
> <10ms
> > to avoid disturbing speech, and for most people/environments must be
> <<5ms.
> > I find it laughable that "low latency" frequently seems to mean 30-50ms.
> >
> > Chris Woolf
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
> > ___
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An 

Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Augustine Leudar]

This looks really cool Bo- Erik

On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 11:11, Bo-Erik Sandholm  wrote:

>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301482315_Improving_Indoor_Localization_Using_Bluetooth_Low_Energy_Beacons
>
> This is from 2016 , I belive there have been progress since then...
> So we can get localisation info, next step ?
>
> Bo-Erik
>
> Den tis 28 maj 2019 kl 10:56 skrev Richard Dobson :
>
> >
> >
> > On 28/05/2019 08:49, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > > wow :
> > >
> > .. It would be great if someone could
> > > just invent bluetooth quad (or more)  then you could happily just
> deposit
> > > four cable free bluetooth speakers around the room and be done with all
> > > this nonsense.
> > >
> > ...
> > Slightly a propos to this: in his 2000 "Millennium" article in JAES,
> > Andy Moorer proposed "In 20 years, loudspeakers and microphones will
> > know where they are". How are we doing with that, with one year to go?
> >
> > Richard Dobson
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
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> >
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-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Augustine Leudar]

Weve tried local wifi networks at shows before but it was a bit unreliable
for droppouts etc then again so is Bluetooth. FOr home us it would be fine.
Four plug sockets  might be a bit more doable than audio cables as well.
Wasn't there someone on here who was doing something DIY with the rasberry
pie ? Anyway it would nice to bring something commercially viable to market.

On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 09:39, Bo-Erik Sandholm  wrote:

> The Speakers won't be wireless as you probably want them to be powered.
>
> But it should be easy with bluetooth 4.0 or Wi-Fi direct to create a
> solution.
>
> Normal Wi-Fi could be used.
> The low cost esp8266 makes this possible in a diy setup...
>
> Stream a 4 channel audiostream to the 4 speakers.
> Have a switch on each speaker to select which channel it will playback.
>
> Could possibly be solved by streaming 2 stereo channels on 2 different ip
> ports over WiFi instead. 
>
> Bo-Erik
>
>
>
> Den tis 28 maj 2019 09:50Augustine Leudar 
> skrev:
>
> > wow :
> >
> > https://youtu.be/KrVGTqRftKY
> >
> > Problem is as most engineers know the result of room reflections is
> > generally comb filtering not increased spatialisation. Even if you could
> > somehow get this to work the time of the reflections would depend on room
> > size, the materials on the wall etc etc. It would be great if someone
> could
> > just invent bluetooth quad (or more)  then you could happily just deposit
> > four cable free bluetooth speakers around the room and be done with all
> > this nonsense.
> >
> > On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 08:38, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thats interesting - ive always wanted to hear transaural actually
> working
> > > - I've only tried Spat. However this would require the content
> producers
> > > (sound designers) to actually add HRTFs and use software to render
> > > trnasaural filters the same as binaural - and most d not , genrally its
> > > just the same stereo content used on two speakers produced over a
> > soundbar.
> > > Even a soundbar isnt intelligent enough to decide which sounds should
> > > appear where, marvelous though they are.
> > >
> > > On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 01:55, Aaron Heller  wrote:
> > >
> > >> The soundbars I've heard sound like they use crosstalk cancellation
> (aka
> > >> transaural stereo) to achieve surround effects. I believe the work of
> > >> Edgar
> > >> Choueiri and his students at Princeton represents the state of the art
> > in
> > >> that area.
> > >>https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/index.html
> > >>
> > >> Also Ralph Glasgal, an occasional poster on sursound --
> > >> http://www.ambiophonics.org
> > >>
> > >> Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com)
> > >> Menlo Park, CA  US
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 4:43 PM Augustine Leudar <
> > >> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Hi Douglas -
> > >> > I dont think he was referring to Atmos soundbars just Atmos in
> > general .
> > >> > Atmos will of course work nicely being a 9.1 (or is it 11.1 ?) bed
> > with
> > >> > objects operating  within that over an unlimited number of speakers
> > (or
> > >> is
> > >> > it 128 max)  - as such its true surround (in that the speakers od
> > >> actually
> > >> > surround the litener);  .
> > >> > However its not particularily innovative in that it combines stuff
> > thats
> > >> > been around for years -  (ambisonics can decode to different speaker
> > >> arrays
> > >> > from one file for example and I assume the objects move around using
> > >> > amplitude panning). Then youve got things like DBAP which have the
> > >> > potential to create far more convincing 3D audio scenes that ATMOS
> and
> > >> > thats been around a lot longer.
> > >> > But no here we just refer to soundbars in general I think. I find it
> > >> very
> > >> > unlikely though that an "ATMOS" soundbar would give the impression
> of
> > a
> > >> > sound being behind the listener than a basical quad setup where
> there
> > >> > actually are two speakers behind the listener.
> > >> > I agree  placebo definately plays a role in a lot of spatial audio

Re: [Sursound] Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.

[Augustine Leudar]

wow :

https://youtu.be/KrVGTqRftKY

Problem is as most engineers know the result of room reflections is
generally comb filtering not increased spatialisation. Even if you could
somehow get this to work the time of the reflections would depend on room
size, the materials on the wall etc etc. It would be great if someone could
just invent bluetooth quad (or more)  then you could happily just deposit
four cable free bluetooth speakers around the room and be done with all
this nonsense.

On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 08:38, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Thats interesting - ive always wanted to hear transaural actually working
> - I've only tried Spat. However this would require the content producers
> (sound designers) to actually add HRTFs and use software to render
> trnasaural filters the same as binaural - and most d not , genrally its
> just the same stereo content used on two speakers produced over a soundbar.
> Even a soundbar isnt intelligent enough to decide which sounds should
> appear where, marvelous though they are.
>
> On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 01:55, Aaron Heller  wrote:
>
>> The soundbars I've heard sound like they use crosstalk cancellation (aka
>> transaural stereo) to achieve surround effects. I believe the work of
>> Edgar
>> Choueiri and his students at Princeton represents the state of the art in
>> that area.
>>https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/index.html
>>
>> Also Ralph Glasgal, an occasional poster on sursound --
>> http://www.ambiophonics.org
>>
>> Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com)
>> Menlo Park, CA  US
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 4:43 PM Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Douglas -
>> > I dont think he was referring to Atmos soundbars just Atmos in general .
>> > Atmos will of course work nicely being a 9.1 (or is it 11.1 ?) bed with
>> > objects operating  within that over an unlimited number of speakers (or
>> is
>> > it 128 max)  - as such its true surround (in that the speakers od
>> actually
>> > surround the litener);  .
>> > However its not particularily innovative in that it combines stuff thats
>> > been around for years -  (ambisonics can decode to different speaker
>> arrays
>> > from one file for example and I assume the objects move around using
>> > amplitude panning). Then youve got things like DBAP which have the
>> > potential to create far more convincing 3D audio scenes that ATMOS and
>> > thats been around a lot longer.
>> > But no here we just refer to soundbars in general I think. I find it
>> very
>> > unlikely though that an "ATMOS" soundbar would give the impression of a
>> > sound being behind the listener than a basical quad setup where there
>> > actually are two speakers behind the listener.
>> > I agree  placebo definately plays a role in a lot of spatial audio.
>> >
>> > On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 22:00, Douglas Murray  wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > > On May 27, 2019, at 12:09 PM, mgraves mstvp.com 
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > See also Dolby Atmos. Yet another triumph of marketing over reality.
>> > > Dolby is especially good in that arena.
>> > > >
>> > > > Michael Graves
>> > >
>> > > Michael,
>> > >
>> > > Are you referring to the Dolby Atmos sound bars and ceiling bouncing
>> > > speakers? If so I agree. But as a film sound designer, I don’t believe
>> I am
>> > > succumbing to marketing hype when I say that Dolby Atmos in a cinema
>> > > setting, with its full range surrounds and speakers in what were gaps
>> near
>> > > the screen, is a real improvement over other earlier surround formats
>> for
>> > > cinema. Clearly Dolby is trying to generate profits from the mass home
>> > > market rather than only from the small cinema world. It’s probable
>> that
>> any
>> > > sound bar, whether “Atmos” or not, will be an upgrade for whomever
>> buys
>> it,
>> > > so happy customers, even if the hype is not lived up to. Maybe it’s
>> the
>> > > placebo effect that makes these things work?
>> > >
>> > > Doug Murray
>> > > ___
>> > > Sursound mailing list
>> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
>> here,
>> > > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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