Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards. Lower vapor pressure means less volatile. The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea level) Zeke Yewdall wrote: I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go. I think the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure lower vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively. Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion. But water has an even higher vapor pressure lower than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter. the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure) which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix. The problem here is that vapor pressure and water solubility tend to be inversely proportional. One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl ketone. both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than either. What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan. Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical? Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol. what's a carburetor? :- Z On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
universal health care, unlike in the USA where it's every man/women for his/her self. JAMES PHELPS wrote: Wow that’s almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and Iceland do so well coming from the free world? - Original Message - *From:* bob allen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Howdy Bob, I certainly didn't mean to imply that our health care system is better than others. I offered up the statistics only to correct a statement made by another. Personally I am embarrassed by the poor overall state of health care in the USA and as I mentioned in another post, it is due principally to the lack of universal health care. Another factor is our downright foolish reluctance to teach about sex in public schools and on and on. Clinton had an initiative to move towards universal health care at the beginning of his first term, but the proposal went no where. Costs continue to rise while more and more are left without insurance. Maybe with our ever so slight lurch to the left, we may see some movement towards providing health care for all. http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2006/11/27/news/latest_news/b1e8f84368598b8886257233007700f6.txt Bob Molloy wrote: Hi Bob, Why not compare apples with apples? If we really want to inform ourselves shouldn't we be comparing what it is in various western democracies that produces such important health statistics? Patting ourselves on the back for having better infant mortality rates than third world countries is of little help. Better to look to the front runners such as Sweden and Norway (second and seventh respectively in the world ranking for infant mortality rates while the US is 36th). All three are democracies, the difference is that the first two are socialist in the sense that their governments own and run all the big ticket items such as water, power, education and health, with education and health provided free. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine
big snip Imagine, for a moment, that you have spent more than two decades in painfully laborious research-- that you have discovered an incredibly simple, electronic approach to curing literally every disease on the planet caused by viruses and bacteria . isn't anybody bothered by such a broad claim as curing literally every disease on the planet caused by viruses and bacteria That alone is enough to make me highly skeptical of anything else. And the invocation of big whatever conspiracy to suppress this miracle invention cinches it. oh, and ascribing a particular resonant frequency to a bacteria or virus, to be selective one should have a different frequency for each bacteria or virus. Aside from this machine, if this phenomena were true, shouldn't there be data from other sources, hopefully something found via google scholar? -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Colloidal Silver Cured MS
* *J Toxicol Clin Toxicol. javascript:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'J Toxicol Clin Toxicol.'); 1996;34(1):119-26. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=pubmed_Abstractdb=pubmedcmd=Displaydopt=pubmed_pubmedfrom_uid=8632503 *Silver products for medical indications: risk-benefit assessment.* *Fung MC* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmedcmd=Searchitool=pubmed_Abstractterm=%22Fung+MC%22%5BAuthor%5D, *Bowen DL* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmedcmd=Searchitool=pubmed_Abstractterm=%22Bowen+DL%22%5BAuthor%5D. BACKGROUND: Legitimate medicinal use of silver-containing products has dramatically diminished over the last several decades. Recently, however, some manufacturers have begun to enthusiastically promote oral colloidal silver proteins as mineral supplements and for prevention and treatment of many diseases. Indiscriminate use of silver products can lead to toxicity such as argyria. OBJECTIVE: To assist health care professionals in a risk versus benefit assessment of over-the-counter silver-containing products, we herein examine the following issues: historical uses, chemistry, pharmacology, clinical toxicology, case reports of adverse events in the literature, and the recent promotion of over-the-counter silver products. Other sources of silver exposure (including environmental and dietary) and EPA exposure standards are discussed. A list of currently available silver products is provided for easy reference and screening. CONCLUSIONS: We emphasize the lack of established effectiveness and potential toxicity of these products. Marylynn Schmidt wrote: Very interesting story I use CS for so many things and I've always been very pleased with the results so I was very impressed when I saw this article. http://www.regenerativenutrition.com/content.asp?id=265 Mary Lynn Schmidt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine
to see which would kill the patient first: the drug or the disease. The inevitable conclusion reached by Rife was that his life-long labor and discoveries had not only been ignored but probably would be buried with him. At that point, he ceased to produce much of anything and spent the last third of his life seeking oblivion in alcohol. It dulled the pain and his acute awareness of half a century of wasted effort - ignored - while the unnecessary suffering of millions continued so that a vested few might profit. And profit they did, and profit they do. In 1971, Royal Rife died from a combination of valium and alcohol at the age of 83. Perhaps his continual exposure to his own Rife frequencies helped his body endure abuse for so many years. Fortunately, his death was not the end of his electronic therapy. A few humanitarian doctors and engineers reconstructed his frequency instruments and kept his genius alive. Rife technology became public knowledge again in 1986 with the publication of The Cancer Cure That Worked, by Barry Lynes, and other material about Royal Rife and his monumental work. There is wide variation in the cost, design, and quality of the modern portable Rife frequency research instruments available. Costs vary from about $1200 to $3600 with price being no legitimate indicator of the technical competence in the design of the instrument or performance of the instruent. Some of the most expensive units have serious technical limitations and are essentially a waste of money. At the other extreme, some researchers do get crude results from inexpensive simple, unmodified frequency generators, but this is just as misguided as spending too much money. Without the proper modifications, the basic frequency generator gives only minimal and inconsistent results. Please recall that the actual destruction of the viruses and bacteria, etc. is not accomplished by the frequency displayed on these cheap generators, but by certain shorter harmonics of that particular frequency which are often blocked by the crudity of a cheap and rudimentary instrument itself. This very problem led Rife to ultimately abandon the 'ray tube' design in favor of today's version. The newer technology applies the frequencies and their harmonics to the body through the use of hand-held, footplate, or stick-on electrodes. Proper frequency exposure and flushing of the body with large amounts of clean, pure water is critical to achieve the kind of results Rife got. These procedures are fully explained in the manuals of the best units on the market. So, unless you would be satisfied with sporadic results for minor conditions, it is suggested you use only the highest quality equipment and only the proper, proven procedures in your personal research. If you do, you may discover that nothing can approach what can be achieved through the application of these safe, time-tested frequencies (many for over 65 years)- and all without drugs, surgery, or radiation. One day, the name of Royal Raymond Rife may ascend to its rightful place as the giant of modern medical science. Until that time, his fabulous technology remains available only to the people who have the interest to seek it out. While perfectly legal for veterinarians to use to save the lives of animals, Rife's brilliant frequency therapy remains taboo to orthodox mainstream medicine because of the continuing threat it poses to the international pharmaceutical medical monopoly that controls the lives - and deaths - of the vast majority of the people on this planet. so where is the link to a site where I can buy this miracle? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine
use only the highest quality equipment and only the proper, proven procedures in your personal research. If you do, you may discover that nothing can approach what can be achieved through the application of these safe, time-tested frequencies (many for over 65 years)- and all without drugs, surgery, or radiation. One day, the name of Royal Raymond Rife may ascend to its rightful place as the giant of modern medical science. Until that time, his fabulous technology remains available only to the people who have the interest to seek it out. While perfectly legal for veterinarians to use to save the lives of animals, Rife's brilliant frequency therapy remains taboo to orthodox mainstream medicine because of the continuing threat it poses to the international pharmaceutical medical monopoly that controls the lives - and deaths - of the vast majority of the people on this planet. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine
to its rightful place as the giant of modern medical science. Until that time, his fabulous technology remains available only to the people who have the interest to seek it out. While perfectly legal for veterinarians to use to save the lives of animals, Rife's brilliant frequency therapy remains taboo to orthodox mainstream medicine because of the continuing threat it poses to the international pharmaceutical medical monopoly that controls the lives - and deaths - of the vast majority of the people on this planet. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine
AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Don't use your device to try to kill dogs please. tallex the only problem I am having with my dog mortality oscillator is making a frequency with more than one wavelength! He illuminated the microbe (usually a virus or bacteria) with two different wavelengths of the same ultraviolet light frequency I am curious as to how you plan to do this. ---Original Message--- From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine Sent: 16 Nov '06 14:25 Howdy D, D. Mindock wrote: ** *Royal Rife, M.D. http://rife.org/ He had a most unusual and productive life. His two main inventions were a microscope that could see the tiniest virus and an electronic/light machine that could kill any dangerous microbe without harming the healthy cells of the human body. In essence, it could cure any disease caused by viruses, bacteria, and fungi, just by dialing in the M.O.R. (mortality oscillatory rate, a particular frequency for that organism).* not to worry, see for example hulda clarks zapper http://www.toolsforhealing.com/CD/Articles/D/DifferencesBetweenZappers.html I'm currently working on a long range mortality oscillator for the dogs that killed a couple of my goats. * Dr Rife worked for decades to determine the MOR for every microbe that he could view in his very powerful microscope. His greatest feat, I think, was curing 16 terminally ill patients of cancer. That is, 16 out of 16, a perfect 100%.* * His technology has been resurrected and is available again although the FDA and AMA would rather you not know about it or think it to be a quack device. Rife was famous in the early decades of the last century and well respected by all the leading bacteriologists until the AMA got worried that Rife's machine would end their gravy train. Then lots of his former colleagues turned on him. Very sad commentary on the lure of moolah and the weakness of man.* * * ** *Royal Raymond Rife* Edited by Jeff Rense 11-7-2 Imagine, for a moment, that you have spent more than two decades in painfully laborious research-- that you have discovered an incredibly simple, electronic approach to curing literally every disease on the planet caused by viruses and bacteria . Indeed, it is a discovery that would end the pain and suffering of countless millions and change life on Earth forever. Certainly, the medical world would rush to embrace you with every imaginable accolade and financial reward imaginable. You would think so, wouldn?t you? Unfortunately, arguably the greatest medical genius in all recorded history suffered a fate literally the opposite of the foregoing logical scenario. In fact, the history of medicine is replete with stories of genius betrayed by backward thought and jealously, but most pathetically, by greed and money. In the nineteenth century, Semmelweiss struggled mightily to convince surgeons that it was a good idea to sterilize their instruments and use sterile surgical procedures. Pasteur was ridiculed for years for his theory that germs could cause disease. Scores of other medical visionaries went through hell for simply challenging the medical status quo of day, including such legends as Roentgen and his X-rays, Morton for promoting the 'absurd' idea of anaesthesia, Harvey for his theory of the circulation of blood, and many others in recent decades including: W.F. Koch, Revici, Burzynski, Naessens, Priore, Livingston-Wheeler, and Hoxsey. Orthodox big-money medicine resents and seeks to neutralize and/or destroy those who challenge its beliefs. Often, the visionary who challenges it pays a heavy price for his 'heresy.' So, you have just discovered a new therapy which can eradicate any microbial disease but, so far, you and your amazing cure aren't very popular. What do you do next? Well, certainly the research foundations and teaching institutions would welcome news of your astounding discovery. Won't they be thrilled to learn you have a cure for the very same diseases they are receiving hundreds of millions of dollars per year to investigate? Maybe not, if it means the end of the gravy train. These people have mortgages to pay and families to support. On second thought, forget the research foundations. Perhaps you should take your discovery to the pharmaceutical industry; certainly it would be of great interest to those protectors of humanity, right? But remember, you have developed a universal cure which makes drugs obsolete, so the pharmaceutical industry just might be less than thrilled to hear about your work. In fact, the bigshots might even make it certain that your human disease-ending technology never sees the light of day, by preventing
Re: [Biofuel] Interesting story from The Washington Post
/ Virus Database: 268.14.5/533 - Release Date: 11/13/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - --- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey
Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
D. Mindock wrote: My dentist says that the average age of death for dentists in Missouri is 52. this number seems to be way far off the average age at death for North Americans, by something like 20 years. One would think that this statistic would stand out like a sore thumb. I sure wish someone would find a reference in addition to D's dentist. We can go back and forth till we all turn blue about the relative toxicity of dental amalgams, but you have suggested a simple end point which I question. He attributes this to all the mercury they're exposed to in the amalgams they use. If you read about the history of mercury in amalgams, it was despised by dental associations in the 1800's. They knew then that mercury was bad news wrt health. It still is. People with a mouthful of fillings made of amalgams (not composite resin) should get a heavy metal check through hair analysis. Dentists and doctors need to remember: First, do no harm. Mercury amalgams are banned in several European countries. The average American has eight amalgam fillings, btw. Root canals with their amalgam centers are also a cause for concern, as I've found out. Amalgams also contain tin which is toxic. I think some even contain aluminum which is suspected as a cause of Alzheimer's, as is mercury. Dentists should be using composite resins which can be made in the same color as teeth and have no dangerous by-products, as far as I know. Having amalgams replaced with composite resins needs to be done very carefully so that the patient and dentist are not exposed, or exposed minimally, to the vapors or particles of amalgam. Peace light, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra robert and benita rabello wrote: snipe We've found very serious, deleterious effects of depleted uranium munitions on soldiers who served in the Gulf War. That's a relatively small sample size when compared to the population of dental professionals in North America and Europe. So, if we can diagnose our veterans on the basis of exposure to depleted uranium in the Gulf War, why are we UNABLE to provide similar results in a much larger population exposed to dental amalgam? Fillings do not contain depleted uranium and DU when it vaporizes on impact and oxidizes into uranium trioxide is found to be a nano powder which is something like 100,000 to 1 meeelion times more toxic than DU is in a macro scale. Gulf war syndrom has nothing to do with mercury in fillings or vaccines. But didn't I read years ago that there is a very high suicide rate among dentists? And you are asking why we don't see wide spread health effects? But these people are saying that many wide spread problems ARE thought to be linked to mecury. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
of equal importance is the form of the sulfur. Is it elemental ie, just sulfur atoms all by themselves, or is the sulfur present as an organosulfur compound. or even present as a metal sulfide salt? JAMES PHELPS wrote: Bob, Andrew, I will investigate the percentage of sulfer in cutting oil and get back to you, stay tuned. Jim From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:00:34 -0600 I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
update, it appears that most of the sulfur which went into solution crystallized out (needles) upon cooling to room temp. bob allen wrote: I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
richard tandiono supardi wrote: *scratch head* (Whatever effect a homeopathic nostrum does must be occuring via a placebo effect, as it can't be due to chemical which is no longer there) -I'm just curious, How do u know it's no longer there? simple math, using the duck liver as an example: the initial concentration is 35 gm/100 ml. this is diluted 100 fold , 200 times resulting in a concentration then 35gm/10 ^400 . A single hydrogen atom has a mass of 1.66 10^ -24 . The final concentration is 35 10^-400. Hence to find a single atom of hydrogen (from the duck liver) you would have to have a volume of 10^396 ml, which is a volume I haven't calculated but bet much greater that the volume of our solar system. (That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid) (so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do something?) -maybe because we lack information? or lacking prerequisite knowledge? :D that is what I am trying do. Provide the information so that people realize what homeopathy is. About data. It's true that having data is better than not. But I think it depends on the nature of the data itself. The problem with data is that it's connected directly to the observers' abilities+knowledge. So there's always ? variables that the data don't cover, hence the data could be inaccurate or even misleading. (So what you are saying that because I can't prove that it doesnt work, means that it does?) - Nope, it's just mean it could work ^_^. No--+--Yes Advice: Relax dont need to get personal on this. It's just discussion. Note: Sry if what I wrote is far off from the discussion, I dont understand most of what u guys talking about here hehe. I'm confused why I read this lot in Biofuel group discussion.. am i missing something? :S Have a nice day, Rick From: /Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Reply-To: /biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ To: /biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Subject: /Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)/ Date: /Thu, 02 Nov 2006 16:49:11 +/ PLACEBO EFFECT .. ANIMALS/PLACEBO EFFECT .. ANIMALS / PLACEBO EFFECT .. ANIMALS Mary Lynn Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity . The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ http://allcreatureconnections.org From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:24:19 -0600 Joe Street wrote: ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful there Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot. If you are saying that there is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 times) ( is that like tapping the heels of your shoes three times?.lol) well then how can NOTHING do SOMETHING? Harm or otherwise? the mere expectation of an outcome can bring on the outcome. that is what the placebo effect is all about, and why it is necessary to do double blind , placebo controlled testing for efficacy. What ever effect a homeopathic nostrum does must be occurring via a placebo effect, as it can't be due to the chemical which is no longer there. Joe bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and with no adverse side effects/toxicology. checkout the nocebo effect numerous examples of harm. In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic. actually it can be. see above More than can be said of many pharma nostrums. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: D. Mindock wrote: Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your quackwatch routine. Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices is silly of me to ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
richard tandiono supardi wrote: (I know, I'm a firm believer in physical reality, and thats where I get in trouble with those who accept supernatural explanations of natural phenomena.) -That's probably because some people are open-minded. By saying impossible, we limit our perception on things and deny any other possibilities. Let's face it, we dont know much about this world; What we see, it's limited to our perception. Ages ago, walking on the moon = impossible! but now = oh okay, big deal. Question: What's considered physical reality? what I can measure Where's the limit? the sensitivity of my equiptment Good day, Rick From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 12:24:26 -0500 bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful there Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot. If you are saying that there is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 times) ( is that like tapping the heels of your shoes three times?.lol) well then how can NOTHING do SOMETHING? Harm or otherwise? the mere expectation of an outcome can bring on the outcome. So you are admitting that the mind is a part of reality and not just a part but a part which has substantial power to effect an outcome. But where is the evidence of the mind? I don't know of any scientific experiment which has detected it. You can cross section any lobe of my brain and I guarantee you will not find any trace of my mind. It would seem then from a scientific, hard evidence perspective that the mind does not have a physical reality. And yet it has a very real power to affect reality. Hmm. You said in a previous post: I know, I'm a firm believer in physical reality, and thats where I get in trouble with those who accept supernatural explanations of natural phenomena. But you believe the placebo effect is real. I think that's called a circular argument isn't it? Joe that is what the placebo effect is all about, and why it is necessary to do double blind , placebo controlled testing for efficacy. What ever effect a homeopathic nostrum does must be occurring via a placebo effect, as it can't be due to the chemical which is no longer there. Joe bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and with no adverse side effects/toxicology. checkout the nocebo effect numerous examples of harm. In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic. actually it can be. see above More than can be said of many pharma nostrums. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: D. Mindock wrote: Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your quackwatch routine. Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices is silly of me to ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or science. I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and you accept testimony. You have your thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science is only a method, a tool, agreeed to get something believed to have a chance of being true to be verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the hypothesis in the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite some time. no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not homeopathy. That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid. so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do something? Science is merely a method. agreed Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that. who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense. But if you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? Where is the data.? Peace and light, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Sorry but I have to jump in here
Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
- The imaginal cells would rule and would make out a butterfly from a caterpillar world. This is the time of waking. Clusters of imaginal cells are gathering everywhere, they are beginning to recognize each other, they are developing the orchestration tools for enhancing connectivity, to drive the next stage of our human society into manifestation, to bring about a news society that would compare to the present one as a butterfly with a caterpillar. A new dimension of life, a compassionate and just society, a humanity rooted in joy and mutual understanding. You are all imaginal cells join the others, cluster, congregate, and lets all together build an Alliance for a New Humanity. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
metamorphosis. This is exemplified best in the transformation of a caterpillar into a butterfly - an incredible transformation in functionality, appearance, organization of components, and purpose - that transforms a gross-looking voracious, clumsy crawling worm, into a subtle, gracious, flying creature of beauty. Biologists tell us that in the tissue of a caterpillar there are embedded cells that they call imaginal cells. They resonate at a different frequency. They are so totally different from the other caterpillar cells, that the immune system of the worm thinks they are enemies and tries to destroy them. But the new imaginal cells continue to appear, more and more of them! Eventually the caterpillar's immune system cannot destroy them fast enough, and they become stronger, they connect, and connect, until they form a critical mass that realizes that their mission is to bring about the amazing birth of a butterfly out of the voracious caterpillar! In 1969 Margaret Mead said: Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. I firmly believe along with many others, that there is an evolutionary effervescence within the tissues of the established society of today. That in spite of the prevailing clamor of fear, greed, over-consumption, and violence, expressed through the tissues of society, there is a coming together of the imaginal cells who are visioning a different world, a transformation, a metamorphosis. Uruguayan poet Mario Benedetti wrote What would happen if one day when we wake up we realize that we are the majority? I say - The imaginal cells would rule and would make out a butterfly from a caterpillar world. This is the time of waking. Clusters of imaginal cells are gathering everywhere, they are beginning to recognize each other, they are developing the orchestration tools for enhancing connectivity, to drive the next stage of our human society into manifestation, to bring about a news society that would compare to the present one as a butterfly with a caterpillar. A new dimension of life, a compassionate and just society, a humanity rooted in joy and mutual understanding. You are all imaginal cells join the others, cluster, congregate, and lets all together build an Alliance for a New Humanity. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth
Joe Street wrote: Alright so my point is that mercury vapour is toxic. the problem Joe is that the word toxic is meaningless without exposure information (as you yourself allude to below). It is common sense that less harm will result from less exposure of a toxin. I have had dentists tell me the mercury is locked up safely by the silver in the amalgam and that makes it safe because it can't get in your body. so how about this- considering the amount and vapor pressure of Mercury and the fact that metallic mercury is poorly absorbed in the body suggests that damage due to this level of exposure is minimal. This is born out via epidimiological data accumulated over several decades. Of course science is self correcting so if data showing harm at this level of exposure is presented, then I will change my tune. And yes there can be flawed data or ourright fraud, concerning the risks of dental amalgam, but I just don't see a reason why. Actually a dentist woulld make money by a) not repairing minor cavities- hence more costs down the line, or b) using more expensive reconstruction materials. And remember alternative construction materials, with shorter track records for safety and efficacy, may put you at greater risk. (the law of unintended consequences) This one guy went on to say that mercury is a lot less toxic than the paranoia suggests. He cited examples of kids chewing thermometers and swallowing liquid mercury which is passed with no ill effect. On the surface this may seem true enough, and sure I have held a pool of quicksilver in my hand as a lad and had fun playing with it. Didn't drop dead. It's the vapour which gets you right? Just don't heat it right? But mercury does have some vapour pressure at room temperature just as any liquid does. The spectrometer will detect it in your breath so yes mercury vapour does come out of the amalgam fillings in my teeth. but is the exposure significant? And for that matter what is a significant risk? how much do you want to spend to mitigate risk? The MSDS doesn't give much info on what SUBTLE effects result from very low level exposure over a lifetime. true enough There is a funny thing I notice around here with the science faculty. Whenever the subject of exposure to traces comes up there is this reaction which is typically a tilt of the head and a shrug of the shoulders combined with the sound of air escaping from the nostrils. I don't know if this is some kind of stoicism or what but it is as if the person is saying 'yeah it's true a LOT of chemists die of cancer in their middle age, but nothing can be done about this'. or perhaps scientists have a keener sense of relative risk? Or is it a suggestion that they believe something along the lines of 'yeah but not me' I don't get it, but it is quite common amongst people who make their living in that field. On the other hand I have been told that the process of removal results in a dose over the short term which is higher than the dose recieved if they are left alone over the long term. I have seen studies to the effect that the body burden of mercury rises after the removal process. I don't know which is worse or what to believe at this point and that is where it sits unfortunately. life's a bitch, and then you die. I'm leaving them alone, unless they get loose and need to be removed for that reason. probably the prudent thing to do based on currently available data, right? Joe bob allen wrote: Cool, but not surprising. I few years ago I was looking at the mercury content of bream in the Ozarks. (found it to be well under a ppm generally via cold vapor fluorescence) I did the analysis in a state lab in Little Rock. technique was so sensitive that the mercury analysis was shut down for a week because a guy broke a thermometer in a lab in the same building as the lab I worked in but hundreds of feet away, which swamped the detector. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; I know this guy here at the U and he makes these micro mass specs. Turns out the increase in sensitivity is non linear with the decrease in physical size of the analyzer. So as it turns out if a sample of exhaled breath is analyzed he can make a pretty good guess how many fillings you have in your head based on mercury loading. Here is his site: http://orchard.uwaterloo.ca/ Joe bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: When one considers what would happen to dentistry should they admit mercury is actually toxic and shouldnt be in your mouth the data don't support your claim, plain and simple. we realize it will be a cold day in hell when they do. Either the EPA is right or the dentists are right you cant have it both ways. yes you can if you know a little chemistry. The the absorption, distibution, metabolism
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
Joe Street wrote: ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful there Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot. If you are saying that there is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 times) ( is that like tapping the heels of your shoes three times?.lol) well then how can NOTHING do SOMETHING? Harm or otherwise? the mere expectation of an outcome can bring on the outcome. that is what the placebo effect is all about, and why it is necessary to do double blind , placebo controlled testing for efficacy. What ever effect a homeopathic nostrum does must be occurring via a placebo effect, as it can't be due to the chemical which is no longer there. Joe bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and with no adverse side effects/toxicology. checkout the nocebo effect numerous examples of harm. In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic. actually it can be. see above More than can be said of many pharma nostrums. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: D. Mindock wrote: Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your quackwatch routine. Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices is silly of me to ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or science. I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and you accept testimony. You have your thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science is only a method, a tool, agreeed to get something believed to have a chance of being true to be verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the hypothesis in the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite some time. no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not homeopathy. That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid. so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do something? Science is merely a method. agreed Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that. who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense. But if you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? Where is the data.? Peace and light, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of homeopathy. This is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something which causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme. Substances are diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this concentration there is nothing left at all. A little critical thinking goes a long way here. There may be some herbs out there for which there is credible evidence for efficacy, but as far as homeopathy goes- it is nonsense. Marylynn Schmidt wrote: Just my thoughts on the matter of bone (or anything) re-growth .. We are a whole and the whole must be treated so going to a dentist for bone re-growth and/or gum tissue re-growth is as much of a separation of self as seeing the heart specialist for heart problems, the dermatologist for skin problems, etc Your mouth, gums, jaw bone, teeth are still a part of the whole .. nothing is going to exist in isolation inside the human physical body. Do you know a good herbalist? I'm thinking something missing .. but if you have some level of toxic substance as a core problem (don't we all), then homeopathy could be the road. Mary Lynn Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity . The Animal
Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
MK DuPree wrote: Bob...I gotta be honest, it's fatheads like you that really piss off fatheads am I not supposed to feel offended if you offend yourself? like me and maybe that's why hope for anything but misery generally on this planet is all there really can be. Nonetheless, it's also fatheads like you that make fatheads like me take note that whatever hope for anything beyond misery generally on this planet that there may be must first be imagined and felt individually. So thanks... glad I could be of assistance for the opportunity to strengthen my resolve for hope and peace and light and love within myself and just generally giving a damn about what really matters I agree entirely even if there is no data prove it. uh, if you have no data, how do you know it matters? Mike DuPree PS Bob, there is also something called critical reading. It's basically about understanding both the context and content of what is written. Your response indicates you have not learned how to read critically. Amazing, since you are the one who keeps advocating Show me the data! No doubt, you have been blinded by the light. Not unusual. It's a common problem, due in large part to a major shortage of teachers who know how to do same much less teach it. Hang in there, buddy. Fortunately our immediate destinies are all the same...the grave. Beyond that, of course, who knows. I'm confident, however, if it turns out to be something other than nothing, you'll get the help you need to grow beyond your pain. pain? not here, generally I enjoy life and seek peace and love just like the next guy. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra Ah yes, Deepak Chopra, promoter of Ayuvedic medicine, where it is thought that the consumption of your urine is medically beneficial. Nothing like a warm cup of piss to start the day...:0 http://www.indiangyan.com/books/therapybooks/Uropathy/my_personal_experiments.shtml Once during my lecture, one gentleman rose from the audience and asked me Mr. Thakkar, you are talking so highly about urine treatment for all tooth problems, but my experience is otherwise with it. I am washing my mouth with urine since two years, still I have lost my two teeth and the third one is loose and is on the verge of going. I asked him, How long you you rinse your mouth with urine? His reply was for a minute or two. The defect in the treatment was detected instantly. One has to fill his or her mouth with fresh urine for ten minutes so that it can be absorbed by the gums and would reach the roots of the teeth. He informed me after few days that his teeth had become all right with my technique within a week. During last ten years thousands of people have vouched the efficacy of U.T. on teeth and gum problems of various types. D. Mindock wrote: Mike, I am glad you liked the article. We need to be agents of change, to transform the planet into one where peace and caring prevail. As individuals we need to become peaceful within ourselves, then we can radiate peace everywhere. Prayer and continous positive affirmations can help rewire ourselves to a peaceful state. WRT a standard prayer for the list, how about: In peace I journey to forever. Visioning peace becoming peace, individually, is a milestone on the way. We do each create reality for ourselves. Imagining this world as one where peace exists in each individual and between countries should make it happen, to become real for each of us; the idea here is that when a critical number of people are at peace internally then the rest will be entrained and switch over easily. So we must become peace so that we can project it. We are electrical creatures. People like Dubya and Cheney are not at peace within themselves, imo. That is why it is so easy for them to advocate war and attack the environment. They see scarcity where there is abundance. But they could not do the tragic things they do without lots of like-minded people. So we imaginers have to get busy. John Lennon's Imagine seems to be appropriate here. Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world
Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
the caterpillar's immune system cannot destroy them fast enough, and they become stronger, they connect, and connect, until they form a critical mass that realizes that their mission is to bring about the amazing birth of a butterfly out of the voracious caterpillar! In 1969 Margaret Mead said: Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. I firmly believe along with many others, that there is an evolutionary effervescence within the tissues of the established society of today. That in spite of the prevailing clamor of fear, greed, over-consumption, and violence, expressed through the tissues of society, there is a coming together of the imaginal cells who are visioning a different world, a transformation, a metamorphosis. Uruguayan poet Mario Benedetti wrote What would happen if one day when we wake up we realize that we are the majority? I say - The imaginal cells would rule and would make out a butterfly from a caterpillar world. This is the time of waking. Clusters of imaginal cells are gathering everywhere, they are beginning to recognize each other, they are developing the orchestration tools for enhancing connectivity, to drive the next stage of our human society into manifestation, to bring about a news society that would compare to the present one as a butterfly with a caterpillar. A new dimension of life, a compassionate and just society, a humanity rooted in joy and mutual understanding. You are all imaginal cells join the others, cluster, congregate, and lets all together build an Alliance for a New Humanity. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
MK DuPree wrote: James...Bob is being facetious and a fathead. Not judging, just noting. Mike DuPree name calling, an effective way to win hearts and minds... - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra Bob, While your at it be sure to spit it out on your hands and feet - Its also supposed to cure cracked chapped skin, Please excuse me I must go brush and gargle with peroxide and baking soda I'm just to big a coward to use urine for anything but Compost activator. Sorry to sound skeptical Bob but I have to drw the line somewhere. ;^) Jim From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 08:32:06 -0600 Ah yes, Deepak Chopra, promoter of Ayuvedic medicine, where it is thought that the consumption of your urine is medically beneficial. Nothing like a warm cup of piss to start the day...:0 http://www.indiangyan.com/books/therapybooks/Uropathy/my_personal_experiments.shtml Once during my lecture, one gentleman rose from the audience and asked me Mr. Thakkar, you are talking so highly about urine treatment for all tooth problems, but my experience is otherwise with it. I am washing my mouth with urine since two years, still I have lost my two teeth and the third one is loose and is on the verge of going. I asked him, How long you you rinse your mouth with urine? His reply was for a minute or two. The defect in the treatment was detected instantly. One has to fill his or her mouth with fresh urine for ten minutes so that it can be absorbed by the gums and would reach the roots of the teeth. He informed me after few days that his teeth had become all right with my technique within a week. During last ten years thousands of people have vouched the efficacy of U.T. on teeth and gum problems of various types. D. Mindock wrote: Mike, I am glad you liked the article. We need to be agents of change, to transform the planet into one where peace and caring prevail. As individuals we need to become peaceful within ourselves, then we can radiate peace everywhere. Prayer and continous positive affirmations can help rewire ourselves to a peaceful state. WRT a standard prayer for the list, how about: In peace I journey to forever. Visioning peace becoming peace, individually, is a milestone on the way. We do each create reality for ourselves. Imagining this world as one where peace exists in each individual and between countries should make it happen, to become real for each of us; the idea here is that when a critical number of people are at peace internally then the rest will be entrained and switch over easily. So we must become peace so that we can project it. We are electrical creatures. People like Dubya and Cheney are not at peace within themselves, imo. That is why it is so easy for them to advocate war and attack the environment. They see scarcity where there is abundance. But they could not do the tragic things they do without lots of like-minded people. So we imaginers have to get busy. John Lennon's Imagine seems to be appropriate here. Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one Namasté Peace to all, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: MK DuPree To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra Hi D...I really appreciate reading this...but you know what's coming: Show me the data! Aside from that, whatever might happen to society as a whole as a result of many individuals imagining a better world, what happens to the individual in the process of doing so is what matters most. Along these lines, I
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
Howdy Gustl Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: Hallo Joe, Thursday, 02 November, 2006, 10:05:46, you wrote: JS ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful there JS Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot. If you are saying that there JS is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 times) ( is that JS like tapping the heels of your shoes three times?.lol) well then how JS can NOTHING do SOMETHING? Harm or otherwise? JS Joe It's worse than that Joe. He demands data on the efficacy of homeopathic products stating that the work to falsify homeopathy has been done but provides zero data to falsify homeopathy as a legitimate method of treatment. so your saying that because I can't prove that it doesn't work, means that it does? here is what I can prove: the dilutions employed in homeopathy are such that there is nothing left of the agent (the duck liver for example) in the final product. Logic alone would suggest then that the duck liver has no effect on the outcome of the use of the product, unless you accept that the water remembered the duck liver, and this was transfered to the filler in the capsule taken. One, I would think, has to suspend any connection to reality to believe that the water remembers what was in it. toodles Evidently he hasn't heard that what is good for the goose is good for the gander or of logical debate for that matter. If he had anything other than an opinion he would provide it but it isn't in any of his mails nor will it ever be because the work has apparently not been done. I haven't followed this thread but would like to know if he has cited any hard data or has he only cited the opinions of some scientists or nothing at all. Homeopathy has not been falsified because either no one has taken the trouble to do it or it works is what it looks like. His science is as hard as the testimonies he decries and his data against homeopathy is as lacking as the hard data for it. Some folks just like to talk for the sake of talking. Happy Happy, Gustl JS bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and with no adverse side effects/toxicology. checkout the nocebo effect numerous examples of harm. In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic. actually it can be. see above More than can be said of many pharma nostrums. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: D. Mindock wrote: Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your quackwatch routine. Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices is silly of me to ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or science. I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and you accept testimony. You have your thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science is only a method, a tool, agreeed to get something believed to have a chance of being true to be verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the hypothesis in the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite some time. no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not homeopathy. That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid. so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do something? Science is merely a method. agreed Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that. who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense. But if you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? Where is the data.? Peace and light, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of homeopathy. This is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something which causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme. Substances are diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this concentration
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
Hey Joe, Joe Street wrote: bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'...careful there Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot. If you are saying that there is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 times) ( is that like tapping the heels of your shoes three times?.lol) well then how can NOTHING do SOMETHING? Harm or otherwise? the mere expectation of an outcome can bring on the outcome. So you are admitting that the mind is a part of reality and not just a part but a part which has substantial power to effect an outcome. of course, I have never said otherwise, in fact I continue to repeat it as a mantra- placebo controlled... But where is the evidence of the mind? I guess that depends on a definition of mind- how about electrical activity in the brain? I don't know of any scientific experiment which has detected it. positron emission tomography, MRI, etc? You can cross section any lobe of my brain and I guarantee you will not find any trace of my mind. It would seem then from a scientific, hard evidence perspective that the mind does not have a physical reality. And yet it has a very real power to affect reality. Hmm. I don't have to detect the mind to measure it's effects. for example several experiments have shown that in cases where a placebo is reported to diminish pain, that what is in reality happening is an unconscious release of endorphins. Other measurable effects of the mind include somewhat disturbing data that depressed people have a much higher incidence of numerous diseases, including cancer. this is probably mediated via an endocrine-immune system interaction. One really neat example of mind/body interaction (ever so measurable) is the fact that an immune response can be triggered via Pavlovian training. In the experiment, rats were challenged with an allergen and at the same time a bell rang. The then measured the release of histamine, characteristic of a immune response. After training, only the ringing of the bell was necessary to produce the histamine release, no allergen needed. weird huh? but not supernatural . You said in a previous post: I know, I'm a firm believer in physical reality, and thats where I get in trouble with those who accept supernatural explanations of natural phenomena. But you believe the placebo effect is real. I think that's called a circular argument isn't it? Joe no, vide supra toodles that is what the placebo effect is all about, and why it is necessary to do double blind , placebo controlled testing for efficacy. What ever effect a homeopathic nostrum does must be occurring via a placebo effect, as it can't be due to the chemical which is no longer there. Joe bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and with no adverse side effects/toxicology. checkout the nocebo effect numerous examples of harm. In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic. actually it can be. see above More than can be said of many pharma nostrums. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: D. Mindock wrote: Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your quackwatch routine. Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices is silly of me to ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or science. I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and you accept testimony. You have your thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science is only a method, a tool, agreeed to get something believed to have a chance of being true to be verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the hypothesis in the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite some time. no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not homeopathy. That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid. so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do something? Science is merely a method. agreed Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that. who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense. But if you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this works , shouldn't the hypothesis
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
D. Mindock wrote: Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your quackwatch routine. Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices is silly of me to ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or science. I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and you accept testimony. You have your thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science is only a method, a tool, agreeed to get something believed to have a chance of being true to be verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the hypothesis in the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite some time. no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not homeopathy. That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid. so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do something? Science is merely a method. agreed Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that. who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense. But if you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? Where is the data.? Peace and light, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of homeopathy. This is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something which causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme. Substances are diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this concentration there is nothing left at all. A little critical thinking goes a long way here. There may be some herbs out there for which there is credible evidence for efficacy, but as far as homeopathy goes- it is nonsense. Marylynn Schmidt wrote: Just my thoughts on the matter of bone (or anything) re-growth .. We are a whole and the whole must be treated so going to a dentist for bone re-growth and/or gum tissue re-growth is as much of a separation of self as seeing the heart specialist for heart problems, the dermatologist for skin problems, etc Your mouth, gums, jaw bone, teeth are still a part of the whole .. nothing is going to exist in isolation inside the human physical body. Do you know a good herbalist? I'm thinking something missing .. but if you have some level of toxic substance as a core problem (don't we all), then homeopathy could be the road. Mary Lynn Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity . The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ http://allcreatureconnections.org From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:48:58 -0500 Hi Mike, Yep, Linus Pauling was a true truth seeker, a beautiful human being. I've been doing a bit of research on periodontal disease. It seems that there is alot going on that my dentist doesn't know about. He just wants to pull teeth and put in partial plates. But there are dentists who can stop the disease and get bone and gums to regrow. So I will try to hook up with one and see if he can do something to save a couple teeth. I've talked with a friend who has partials and he hates them. I agree that flu shots are a bad idea. My wife doesn't get them even if they're free. Her company brought in a couple nurses and offered all employees free flu shots. She passed. She says she feels uncomfortable for a few days after getting the shot doesn't like the feeling. You just don't know what's in there besides the crippled virus. She and I work at keeping ourselves as healthy as possible and don't take our health for granted. Yep, being ornery does help. The mind-body connection is very real. The mind controls your health to a large degree. Being stubbornly optimistic or happy is a good way to keep the sick bugs at bay. Peace and joy, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: MK DuPree To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth
Kirk McLoren wrote: When one considers what would happen to dentistry should they admit mercury is actually toxic and shouldnt be in your mouth the data don't support your claim, plain and simple. we realize it will be a cold day in hell when they do. Either the EPA is right or the dentists are right you cant have it both ways. yes you can if you know a little chemistry. The the absorption, distibution, metabolism and excretion (toxicology) of the different forms of mercury vary considerably Frankly I think the toxicity of mercury has been proven and the tobacco industry style argumentation and bogus literature only fools the gullible or those with such a pc mindset they cant see the emperor is naked. The tobacco settlement would be a pittance compared to the dental industry liability. would be? why not will be? If there is money to be made, why isn't someone making it? Maybe because the data aren't there to support the claim? People will kill for far less so for them to tell a lie is to be expected. I would be gob smacked if they didnt. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: or see http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.html Since the 1990s, FDA and other government agencies (CDC, NIH) have reviewed the scientific literature looking for links between dental amalgams and health problems. To date, the agencies have found no scientific studies that demonstrate dental amalgams harm children or adults. But we continue to review the literature and ask experts their opinions on the safety of dental amalgam. http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/1996/1996_63_e.html The statement states that current evidence does not indicate that dental amalgam is causing illness in the general population. It also says that a ban is not justified, and neither is the removal of existing sound amalgam fillings. etc. D. Mindock wrote: When your dentist tells you not to worry about the amalgam he wants to put into your cavity or root canal, show him/her the list below. Peace, D. Mindock http://www.medical-library.net/specialties/framer.html?/specialties/_biological_and_mercury_free_dentistry.html Here in summary form are the essential assertions of mercury and root canal free dentistry accompanied by literature references in cases where there can be any argument. I am indebted to Dr. Robert Gammal and Mr. Leif Hedegard for the organization of this information. 1. Dental Amalgam contains about 50% Mercury. (undisputed) 2. Mercury has been scientifically demonstrated to be more toxic than Lead, Cadmium, or even Arsenic. (undisputed) 3. Mercury leaves dental amalgam continuously throughout the lifetime of the filing.(7) 4. Mercury vapor is the main way that mercury comes out of amalgam.(31) 5. Mercury vapor is absorbed at a rate of 80% through the lungs into the arterial blood. (31, 55) 6. Mercury is cytotoxic, i.e., it kills cells (undisputed) 7. There is NO harmless level of Mercury Vapor Exposure. (63) 8. Mercury from amalgam binds to -SH (sulfhydryl) groups. These exist in almost every enzymatic process in the body. Mercury from amalgam will thus have the potential of disturbing all metabolic processes. ( 25, 33,60). 9. Mercury from amalgam is transported freely via the blood.(19,34,35,) 10. Mercury vapor is absorbed directly into the brain. (34, 55a) 11. Mercury from amalgam will result in a slow build up of mercury in body tissues. (20,26, 34) 12. Mercury crosses the blood brain barrier. (34,55a) 13. Mercury is implicated in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's Disease. (67,68) 14. Mercury from amalgam is stored in the fetus and infant before the mother. (20,61) 15. Mercury from amalgam is stored in the breast milk and the fetus up to 8 times more than the mother's tissues. (18,19) 16. Mercury (Mercury Vapor / Methyl mercury) crosses the placenta.(18, 31) 17. Mercury Crosses into breast milk.(18,31,61) 18. Mercury will severely reduce reproductive function.(2, 3, 4, 20, 22, 24, 31, 37,38, 39, 40, 41, 49) 19. Mercury rapidly depletes the immune system.(27,34,35,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,60) 20. Mercury will induce a number of Auto Immune Diseases.(27,34,35,42,43,44,60) 21. Mercury will cause an increase in number and severity of allergies.(1,34,60) 22. Mercury from amalgam is stored principally in the kidneys, liver and brain. (1,20,31) 23. Mercury from amalgam (shown in animal experiments) causes kidney damage.(59) 24. Mercury from will cause a 50% reduction in Kidney filtration
Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth
Cool, but not surprising. I few years ago I was looking at the mercury content of bream in the Ozarks. (found it to be well under a ppm generally via cold vapor fluorescence) I did the analysis in a state lab in Little Rock. technique was so sensitive that the mercury analysis was shut down for a week because a guy broke a thermometer in a lab in the same building as the lab I worked in but hundreds of feet away, which swamped the detector. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; I know this guy here at the U and he makes these micro mass specs. Turns out the increase in sensitivity is non linear with the decrease in physical size of the analyzer. So as it turns out if a sample of exhaled breath is analyzed he can make a pretty good guess how many fillings you have in your head based on mercury loading. Here is his site: http://orchard.uwaterloo.ca/ Joe bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: When one considers what would happen to dentistry should they admit mercury is actually toxic and shouldnt be in your mouth the data don't support your claim, plain and simple. we realize it will be a cold day in hell when they do. Either the EPA is right or the dentists are right you cant have it both ways. yes you can if you know a little chemistry. The the absorption, distibution, metabolism and excretion (toxicology) of the different forms of mercury vary considerably Frankly I think the toxicity of mercury has been proven and the tobacco industry style argumentation and bogus literature only fools the gullible or those with such a pc mindset they cant see the emperor is naked. The tobacco settlement would be a pittance compared to the dental industry liability. would be? why not will be? If there is money to be made, why isn't someone making it? Maybe because the data aren't there to support the claim? People will kill for far less so for them to tell a lie is to be expected. I would be gob smacked if they didnt. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: or see http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.html Since the 1990s, FDA and other government agencies (CDC, NIH) have reviewed the scientific literature looking for links between dental amalgams and health problems. To date, the agencies have found no scientific studies that demonstrate dental amalgams harm children or adults. But we continue to review the literature and ask experts their opinions on the safety of dental amalgam. http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/1996/1996_63_e.html The statement states that current evidence does not indicate that dental amalgam is causing illness in the general population. It also says that a ban is not justified, and neither is the removal of existing sound amalgam fillings. etc. D. Mindock wrote: When your dentist tells you not to worry about the amalgam he wants to put into your cavity or root canal, show him/her the list below. Peace, D. Mindock http://www.medical-library.net/specialties/framer.html?/specialties/_biological_and_mercury_free_dentistry.html Here in summary form are the essential assertions of mercury and root canal free dentistry accompanied by literature references in cases where there can be any argument. I am indebted to Dr. Robert Gammal and Mr. Leif Hedegard for the organization of this information. 1. Dental Amalgam contains about 50% Mercury. (undisputed) 2. Mercury has been scientifically demonstrated to be more toxic than Lead, Cadmium, or even Arsenic. (undisputed) 3. Mercury leaves dental amalgam continuously throughout the lifetime of the filing.(7) 4. Mercury vapor is the main way that mercury comes out of amalgam.(31) 5. Mercury vapor is absorbed at a rate of 80% through the lungs into the arterial blood. (31, 55) 6. Mercury is cytotoxic, i.e., it kills cells (undisputed) 7. There is NO harmless level of Mercury Vapor Exposure. (63) 8. Mercury from amalgam binds to -SH (sulfhydryl) groups. These exist in almost every enzymatic process in the body. Mercury from amalgam will thus have the potential of disturbing all metabolic processes. ( 25, 33,60). 9. Mercury from amalgam is transported freely via the blood.(19,34,35,) 10. Mercury vapor is absorbed directly into the brain. (34, 55a) 11. Mercury from amalgam will result in a slow build up of mercury in body tissues. (20,26, 34) 12. Mercury crosses the blood brain barrier. (34,55a) 13. Mercury is implicated in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's Disease. (67,68) 14. Mercury from amalgam is stored in the fetus and infant before the mother. (20,61
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
homeopathy is not efficacious are able to say, We believe homeopathy to be bunk but since the experiments have not been done oh but they have we have no evidence of that. It just sounds unscientific, improbable and impossible to us. My personal opinion? Homeopathy may be a topic worth discussing but I'm not anywhere near sure it is worth debating given the lack of hard evidence one way or the other, but that is just me. Happy Happy, Gustl toodles -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth
Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes and vapor levels above EPA industrial safety levels are ok Just ask Bob nope never said such thing. Hear is the osha level under which there is noe (no observable effect) ** Mercury: 0.05 mg/m3 TWA (vapor) twa is a time weighted average. now can you show me data that that level is exceeded by my fillings? show me the data, not palitudes, and please refrain from trying to put words in my mouth. I will speak for me and you can speak for you OK? or the ADA. Kirk */Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Hey Bob; I know this guy here at the U and he makes these micro mass specs. Turns out the increase in sensitivity is non linear with the decrease in physical size of the analyzer. So as it turns out if a sample of exhaled breath is analyzed he can make a pretty good guess how many fillings you have in your head based on mercury loading. Here is his site: http://orchard.uwaterloo.ca/ Joe bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: When one considers what would happen to dentistry should they admit mercury is actually toxic and shouldnt be in your mouth the data don't support your claim, plain and simple. we realize it will be a cold day in hell when they do. Either the EPA is right or the dentists are right you cant have it both ways. yes you can if you know a little chemistry. The the absorption, distibution, metabolism and excretion (toxicology) of the different forms of mercury vary considerably Frankly I think the toxicity of mercury has been proven and the tobacco industry style argumentation and bogus literature only fools the gullible or those with such a pc mindset they cant see the emperor is naked. The tobacco settlement would be a pittance compared to the dental industry liability. would be? why not will be? If there is money to be made, why isn't someone making it? Maybe because the data aren't there to support the claim? People will kill for far less so for them to tell a lie is to be expected. I would be gob smacked if they didnt. Kirk*/bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:or see http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.htmlSince the 1990s, FDA and other government agencies (CDC, NIH) have reviewed the scientific literature looking for links between dental amalgams and health problems. To date, the agencies have found no scientific studies that demonstrate dental amalgams harm children or adults. But we continue to review the literature and ask experts their opinions on the safety of dental amalgam. http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/1996/1996_63_e.html The statement states that current evidence does not indicate that dental amalgam is causing illness in the general population. It also says that a ban is not justified, and neither is the removal of existing sound amalgam fillings.etc. D. Mindock wrote: When your dentist tells you not to worry about the amalgam he wants to put into your cavity or root canal, show him/her the list below. Peace, D. Mindock http://www.medical-library.net/specialties/framer.html?/specialties/_biological_and_mercury_free_dentistry.html Here in summary form are the essential assertions of mercury and root canal free dentistry accompanied by literature references in cases where there can be any argument. I am indebted to Dr. Robert Gammal and Mr. Leif Hedegard for the organization of this information. 1. Dental Amalgam contains about 50% Mercury. (undisputed) 2. Mercury has been scientifically demonstrated to be more toxic than Lead, Cadmium, or even Arsenic. (undisputed) 3. Mercury leaves dental amalgam continuously throughout the lifetime of the filing.(7) 4. Mercury vapor is the main way that mercury comes out of amalgam.(31) 5. Mercury vapor is absorbed at a rate of 80% through the lungs into the arterial blood. (31, 55) 6. Mercury is cytotoxic, i.e., it kills cells (undisputed) 7. There is NO harmless level of Mercury Vapor Exposure. (63) 8. Mercury from amalgam binds to -SH (sulfhydryl) groups. These exist in almost every enzymatic process in the body. Mercury from amalgam will thus have the potential of disturbing all metabolic processes. ( 25, 33,60). 9. Mercury from amalgam is transported freely via the blood.(19,34,35,) 10. Mercury vapor is absorbed directly into the brain. (34, 55a) 11. Mercury from amalgam will result in a slow build up of mercury
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
Kirk McLoren wrote: In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and with no adverse side effects/toxicology. checkout the nocebo effect numerous examples of harm. In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic. actually it can be. see above More than can be said of many pharma nostrums. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: D. Mindock wrote: Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your quackwatch routine. Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices is silly of me to ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or science. I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and you accept testimony. You have your thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science is only a method, a tool, agreeed to get something believed to have a chance of being true to be verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the hypothesis in the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite some time. no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not homeopathy. That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid. so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do something? Science is merely a method. agreed Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that. who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense. But if you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? Where is the data.? Peace and light, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of homeopathy. This is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something which causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme. Substances are diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this concentration there is nothing left at all. A little critical thinking goes a long way here. There may be some herbs out there for which there is credible evidence for efficacy, but as far as homeopathy goes- it is nonsense. Marylynn Schmidt wrote: Just my thoughts on the matter of bone (or anything) re-growth .. We are a whole and the whole must be treated so going to a dentist for bone re-growth and/or gum tissue re-growth is as much of a separation of self as seeing the heart specialist for heart problems, the dermatologist for skin problems, etc Your mouth, gums, jaw bone, teeth are still a part of the whole .. nothing is going to exist in isolation inside the human physical body. Do you know a good herbalist? I'm thinking something missing .. but if you have some level of toxic substance as a core problem (don't we all), then homeopathy could be the road. Mary Lynn Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity . The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ http://allcreatureconnections.org From: D. Mindock Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Subject: Re: [Biofuel]Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:48:58 -0500 Hi Mike, Yep, Linus Pauling was a true truth seeker, a beautiful human being. I've been doing a bit of research on periodontal disease. It seems that there is alot going on that my dentist doesn't know about. He just wants to pull teeth and put in partial plates. But there are dentists who can stop the disease
Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth
N=1 , now there is a powerful statistic! Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, A lady from Seattle had MS and had the silver/mercury fillings removed from her teeth and her disease went away. She was interviewed on a TV documentary about this story. The mercury safety issue is much like alluminum, flouride and other chemicals. They are dangerous but money seems to be a trump card but people only interested in health have identified these chemicals as being hazzardous to our health. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:30:51 -0600 Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes and vapor levels above EPA industrial safety levels are ok Just ask Bob nope never said such thing. Hear is the osha level under which there is noe (no observable effect) ** Mercury: 0.05 mg/m3 TWA (vapor) twa is a time weighted average. now can you show me data that that level is exceeded by my fillings? show me the data, not palitudes, and please refrain from trying to put words in my mouth. I will speak for me and you can speak for you OK? or the ADA. Kirk */Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Hey Bob; I know this guy here at the U and he makes these micro mass specs. Turns out the increase in sensitivity is non linear with the decrease in physical size of the analyzer. So as it turns out if a sample of exhaled breath is analyzed he can make a pretty good guess how many fillings you have in your head based on mercury loading. Here is his site: http://orchard.uwaterloo.ca/ Joe bob allen wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: When one considers what would happen to dentistry should they admit mercury is actually toxic and shouldnt be in your mouth the data don't support your claim, plain and simple. we realize it will be a cold day in hell when they do. Either the EPA is right or the dentists are right you cant have it both ways. yes you can if you know a little chemistry. The the absorption, distibution, metabolism and excretion (toxicology) of the different forms of mercury vary considerably Frankly I think the toxicity of mercury has been proven and the tobacco industry style argumentation and bogus literature only fools the gullible or those with such a pc mindset they cant see the emperor is naked. The tobacco settlement would be a pittance compared to the dental industry liability. would be? why not will be? If there is money to be made, why isn't someone making it? Maybe because the data aren't there to support the claim? People will kill for far less so for them to tell a lie is to be expected. I would be gob smacked if they didnt. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:or see http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/amalgams.htmlSince the 1990s, FDA and other government agencies (CDC, NIH) have reviewed the scientific literature looking for links between dental amalgams and health problems. To date, the agencies have found no scientific studies that demonstrate dental amalgams harm children or adults. But we continue to review the literature and ask experts their opinions on the safety of dental amalgam. http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/1996/1996_63_e.html The statement states that current evidence does not indicate that dental amalgam is causing illness in the general population. It also says that a ban is not justified, and neither is the removal of existing sound amalgam fillings. etc. D. Mindock wrote: When your dentist tells you not to worry about the amalgam he wants to put into your cavity or root canal, show him/her the list below. Peace, D. Mindock http://www.medical-library.net/specialties/framer.html?/specialties/_biological_and_mercury_free_dentistry.html Here in summary form are the essential assertions of mercury and root canal free dentistry accompanied by literature references in cases where there can be any argument. I am indebted to Dr. Robert Gammal and Mr. Leif Hedegard for the organization of this information. 1. Dental Amalgam contains about 50% Mercury. (undisputed) 2. Mercury has been scientifically demonstrated to be more toxic than Lead, Cadmium, or even Arsenic. (undisputed) 3. Mercury leaves dental amalgam continuously throughout the lifetime of the filing.(7) 4. Mercury vapor is the main way that mercury comes out of amalgam.(31) 5. Mercury vapor
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, People have been taking homeopathic flu shots and seem to get results, however, people taking regular flu shots are still getting the flu and they are exposed to dangerous chemicals such as mercury and alluminum which are in regular flu vaccines. crapola, show me the data! homeophathy is a hoax, it is not chemically or biologically plausible. Please look at what it is and think critically. Homeopathic nostrums have been so diluted that nothing at all of the original ingredient exists. THINK ABOUT IT. The oscillococcinum preperation mentioned for the flu treatment is made from the liver of a duck. As I recall 35 grams of duck liver fat is churned into 100 milliters of water. This is dumped out. Then another 100 ml is added to the same container. Repeat this process 200 times. What you have is some thing that has been diluted 100 to the 200th power. The is no way in hell that there is a single m molecule exists from the original duck. Time magazine did a story on this a while back. They called it 120 million dollar duck, because that is the money made on the sale of the derived product (Boiron) talk about follow the money! I would encourage any thinking person to examine any of the following http://www.homeowatch.org/history/oscillo.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillococcinum or go listen to the podcasts at: http://www.quackcast.com/QuackCast/Podcasts/Archive.html after doing so come back and defend this nonsense Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:53:36 -0500 Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of homeopathy. This is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something which causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme. Substances are diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this concentration there is nothing left at all. A little critical thinking goes a long way here. There may be some herbs out there for which there is credible evidence for efficacy, but as far as homeopathy goes- it is nonsense. Marylynn Schmidt wrote: Just my thoughts on the matter of bone (or anything) re-growth .. We are a whole and the whole must be treated so going to a dentist for bone re-growth and/or gum tissue re-growth is as much of a separation of self as seeing the heart specialist for heart problems, the dermatologist for skin problems, etc Your mouth, gums, jaw bone, teeth are still a part of the whole .. nothing is going to exist in isolation inside the human physical body. Do you know a good herbalist? I'm thinking something missing .. but if you have some level of toxic substance as a core problem (don't we all), then homeopathy could be the road. Mary Lynn Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity . The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ http://allcreatureconnections.org From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:48:58 -0500 Hi Mike, Yep, Linus Pauling was a true truth seeker, a beautiful human being. I've been doing a bit of research on periodontal disease. It seems that there is alot going on that my dentist doesn't know about. He just wants to pull teeth and put in partial plates. But there are dentists who can stop the disease and get bone and gums to regrow. So I will try to hook up with one and see if he can do something to save a couple teeth. I've talked with a friend who has partials and he hates them. I agree that flu shots are a bad idea. My wife doesn't get them even if they're free. Her company brought in a couple nurses and offered all employees free flu shots. She passed. She says she feels uncomfortable for a few days after getting the shot doesn't like the feeling. You just don't know what's in there besides the crippled virus. She and I work at keeping ourselves as healthy as possible and don't take our health for granted. Yep, being ornery does help. The mind-body connection is very real. The mind controls your health to a large degree. Being stubbornly optimistic or happy is a good way to keep the sick bugs at bay. Peace and joy, D. Mindock
Re: [Biofuel] Say no to mercury in your teeth
Silver tooth fillings impairs sheep kidney function. Am. J. Physiol. 261 (Regulatory Integrative Comp. Physiol. 30): R1010-R1014, 1991 60. Stejskal V Sweden Memory lymphocyte immuno- stimulation assay - MLISA 61. Dr Gustav Drasch, Institute of Forensic Medicine, University of Munich. Public announcement 25 January 1994 Bio Probe March 1994 62. Dr W. Kostler., President of the Austrian Oncology Society. Paper presented at the World Congress on Cancer. April 1994 Sydney Australia. 63. World Health Organization Criteria 118 1991 Geneva Switzerland 64. Health damage due to exposure to mercury vapor (Mercury) Szkody zdrowotne wywolane narazeniem napary rteci (Mercury). Moszczynski-P Jr; Moszczynski-P Czas-Stomatol. 1989 Apr; 42(4): 233-81989 (POLAND) 65. Fung YK, Molvar MP, Strom A, Schneider NR, Carlson MP In vivo mercury and methyl mercury levels in patients at different intervals after amalgam restorations. College of Dentistry, University of Nebraska Medical Center, Lincoln. Northwest-Dent. 1991 May-Jun; 70(3): 23-6 66. Thompson CM, Markesbery WR, Ehmann WD, Mao YX Regional brain trace-element studies in Alzheimer's disease. In: Neurotoxicology (1988 Spring) 9(1):1-7 67. Vance DE, Ehmann WD, Markesbery WR A search for longitudinal variations in trace element levels in nails of Alzheimer's disease patients. Biol Trace Elem Res (1990 Jul-Dec) 26-27:461-70 68. Systemic diseases caused by oral microorganisms. Debelian et. al., (1994). Endod. Dent. Traumatol10:57-65. 69. Systemic dissemination as a result of oral infection in individuals 50 years of age and older. Navazesh and Mulligan (1995). Spec. Care Dentist. 15:11-19. 70. Focal pathology and infectious dental foci. Theoretical and clinical aspects. Preda and Pasetti (1990). Dent. Cadmos 58:34-43. 71. Association between acute cerebrovascular ischemia and chronic and recurrent infection. Grau (1996). J. Periodontol. 67:1103-1113.et al.,(1997). Stroke 28:1724-1729. 72. Dental infections and coronary atherosclerosis. Mattila et al., (1993). Atherosclerosis 103:205-211. 73. Association between acute cerebrovascular ischemia and chronic and recurrent infection. Grau et. al., (1997). Stroke 28724-1729. 74. Association between dental health and acute myocardial infarction. Mattila et. al., (1989). Br. Med. J. 298:779-784. 75. Dental infections as a risk factor for acute myocardial infarction. Mattila (1993). Europ. Heart J. 14:51-53. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence)
likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo
[Biofuel] get the lead out
urge an approach like Arizona's. The state offered free non-lead bullets to hunters last year in areas frequented by condors. Nearly two-thirds accepted them, and condor lead-exposure rates fell 40% from 2004, according to Arizona's game and fish department. Ventana wants California lawmakers to approve $200,000 a year for five years to pay for coupons that hunters could redeem for free or reduced-price non-lead bullets. That's a million bucks. Big deal, says Ventana's president, Kelly Sorenson. Compared to the total cost we're spending on the condor recovery program, it's a small price to pay. That program, involving state and federal agencies, zoos, foundations and universities, has cost at least $40 million, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service says. -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Opps- Bad News
/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] THE TRUTH BEHIND THE VACCINE COVER-UP
D. Mindock wrote: Here is a treasure trove of the fallacies of vaccination. If some weak people insist on getting vaccinated, fine. But it goes over the line when they force others to get vaccinated as well. And that is what is happening. Big Pharma wants total control of your body. And they are inducing weak politicians to make the laws necessary. http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccines.htm here is a gem from your antivax site: *HOMEOPATHY IS RENOWNED FOR ITS ABILITY TO REDUCE OR REPAIR THE DAMAGE CAUSED BY VACCINES LIKE NOTHING ELSE CAN !* Homeopathy http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/homeopat.htmis noted for its success to antidote or remove the toxic effects of vaccines and to re-establish balance in the organism and restore health. Certain homeopathic remedies taken after/ /vaccination can minimize vaccine damage. A professional homeopath http://www.homeopathy-cures.com/html/referrals_to_homeopaths.html should be consulted for more. what a joke. Homeopathy is the easiest of alt ernative medicines to discredit. Anyone who can count, should understand. From AAPS: what is the AAPS ? google gives numerous organisations that use those initials The Physician's Desk Reference cites adverse reactions to the hepatitis B in less than 1 percent. However, if more than 70 million American children receive the vaccine, that means more than 700,000 children are likely to suffer adverse reactions. Hepatitis B virus (HBV) is a common cause of liver disease throughout the world. An estimated one third of the world's population has serologic evidence of past infection, and the virus causes more than 1 million deaths annually.1 In the United States, the incidence of HBV infection declined from about 14 cases per 100,000 population in the mid-1980s to about three cases per 100,000 population in 1998.2 However, there are still 1.25 million adults and children in the United States with chronic HBV infection. Children are a very low risk group for hepatitis B. unless exposed during birth: Primary risk factors are dependent on lifestyle, i.e. multiple sex partners, drug abuse or an occupation with exposure to blood. http://www.doh.state.fl.us/disease_ctrl/immune/hep_b/index.htm HBV infection is a serious health problem in the United States. Transmission of HBV from mother to infant during the perinatal period confers the greatest risk of chronic infection or death from HBV-related chronic liver disease. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that between 454 and 751 HBsAg-positive Florida women give birth each year; without prophylaxis, 45-100 infants would become infected with HBV. Ninety to 95 percent of these potential infections may be avoided through appropriate maternal screening and infant immunoprophylaxis. Rampant conflicts of interest in the approval process has been the subject of several Congressional hearings, and a recent Congressional report concluded that the pharmaceutical industry has indeed exerted undue influence on mandatory vaccine legislation toward its own financial interests. The vaccine approval process has also been contaminated by flawed or incomplete clinical trials, and government officials have chosen to ignore negative results. For example, the CDC was forced to withdraw its recommendation of the rotavirus vaccine within one year of approval. Yet public documents obtained by AAPS show that the CDC was aware of alarmingly high intussuception rates months before the vaccine was approved and recommended. Mandatory vaccines violate the medical ethic of informed consent. A case could also be made that mandates for vaccines by school districts and legislatures is the de facto practice of medicine without a license. The CDC's own Guide to Contraindications to Childhood Vaccination warns that when assessing children's common symptoms, if any one of them is a contraindication, DO NOT VACCINATE [caps added]. And yet, under legislated mandates, the vaccines are still required. End AAPS excerpt. IMO, mandatory vaccinations are not Constitutional. We have nothing if we have no control over our own bodies against outside forces. If my home is my castle, then what is my body? part of a public health program? Peace, D. Mindock P.S. Marilynn, thanks for this topic as it hits home to what this country is becoming. - Original Message - From: Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] THE TRUTH BEHIND THE VACCINE COVER-UP All those bumper stickers loudly proclaiming that Abortion Is Not A Medical Procedure has always made me wonder if the average individual actually knows that Childbirth is Not a Medical Procedure Either. Historically the midwife (mid-wiff-ery) or the village medicine woman assisted with the help
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
D. Mindock wrote: Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. Can you explain how this happens? So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
D. Mindock wrote: Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/10/13/food/0_03_1110_12_06.txt Raw organic milk that sickened California children now OK http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003280686_spinach29m.html Two children have been sickened in another episode of E. coli infection, this time from drinking raw milk from a Whatcom County dairy. A 5-year-old boy from Issaquah was still hospitalized with the illness Thursday, while an 8-year-old girl from Snohomish County was recovering at home, said state health officials and a spokeswoman for a store that sold the milk. http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Sciencearticle=UPI-1-20061013-01412200-bc-britain-tb.xml Small TB outbreak traced to raw milk Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
In Montreal this summer I tried steak tartar, as it was on the menu in several resturants. It was served as a little volcano of ground beef, with a raw egg in the cone. Mike Weaver wrote: Actually, I hate milk and am very allergic to it. I like cheese but rarely eat it. In Europe I prefer raw sheep's milk. I read anecdotally that that both raw (grass-fed) milk and beef are much better than cooked. I don't eat much meat at all. I sometimes buy sushi grade tuna and eat it raw to get my mercury allowance ;-) D. Mindock wrote: Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as AnesthesiaWasTestimonials as Evidence)
Howdy Mike, MK DuPree wrote: Hi D and Mike...isn't homogenized milk actually the lipid portion of milk, whipped up into incredibly small particles yes that actually scar the lining of the esophagus and arteries, no thereby, allowing cholesterol to more easily coagulate along the linings? no Whether or not it does, I say soy milk. I know I know...tastes terrible, to some. But I only use it on cereals and a couple of desserts. Plenty of other stuff to be drinking, likeuh, waterdistilled of course...I know I know minerals etc etc...hey...distilledperiod...and don't bother me about taste...if you can taste it, it ain't water you're tasting! Yeah, I'm closed minded on this one!! LOL Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as AnesthesiaWasTestimonials as Evidence) Hi Mike, I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the Harvard study would actually be better off. Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic. Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas drink their milk cultured, not straight up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third world, disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes to mind, along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website: In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references) Other studies have found similar results. It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop a disease if they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't need cat milk. bob allen wrote: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: HI Bob, The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. oh really, and your source for these facts is? are the data age adjusted, etc. and just what other ailments are included. This is the issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad statements as fact, without little or no support. So give me reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How about age adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to get cancer. show me the data please. On the other hand there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland that is an almost disease free area. I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and about the only thing I got were people hawking their particular cure The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm or how about 160+ year olds http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm do really believe that? really, you don't think someone could be less than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? or maybe it's the magnetized water http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm A pure organic food diet and almost no pollution could be the reason for people having good health. or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better documentation? -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Isuzu Pickup
Of course that's assuming it is a diesel engine. ;- Keith Addison wrote: Can any one on the list tell me what I need to do to convert my newest vehicle to B-100. Its an 88 Isuzu pickup and has less than 100k miles. Put the fuel in the tank. Best Keith Thanks, Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://www.ozarker.org/bob - Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves. Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Orwellian word, healthcare has. Things are indeed much as D. describes them, sad to say. Best Keith Bob, Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is convicted of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. I am more forgiving, having realized my own numerous faults. There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be safe and effective. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can see many studies there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big Pharma takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and then derives a drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used as medicine for hundreds of years. You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by this approach. You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech approach to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot and, imo, that's a fundamental error. Not only that, but they insist that only their way is science and we that disagree are goofy. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs, vitamins, and supplements on the shelves in today's health food store. That is the aim of Codex Alimentarius. Of course, it is to be done to protect the citizens of America, Australia, England, Germany, etc. It will be done with no public input and to harmonize our trade with all of our trade partners. So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent herbs, supplements, vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily allowance) levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing. One example of alt medicine in action: http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in advanced stages of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes by a bully FDA. Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked, it seems that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business and there little incentive to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a threat but he held his ground. My hat is off to him. The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The monographs are available in book form. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) D. Mindock wrote: I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. no, the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he only sells books about health care products. I got his last two books. They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says. keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud. He stole peoples money. what makes you think he's telling the truth now? did you read any of the comments at ripoffreport.com ? he is a scam artist I have seen too many people, friends and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with drugs, and as long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them exclusively. a commendable notion, but where do you get reliable information on efficacy? from a con artist? It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more successful they are, the more they're stymied in their work by the FDA. how do you measure success? The reason they are under attack as you call it not because of success, but because they make unsubstantiated claims. For example mercola -- Mercola gets second warning letter. The FDA has ordered Joseph Mercola, DO and his Optimal Wellness Center to stop making illegal claims for four products. The order was based on product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. The objectionable claims include: **Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to help to virtually eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future. **Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases. **Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease. **Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed to be a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease. --- This is one of the primary functions of the AMA. It has no enforcement powers
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, This is a tough call; do I believe your website, which I know nothing about or do I consider the website to be similar to some rumors you needn't trust any web site. Federal convictions are a matter of public record. as are fines and fda cease and desist orders. He is a con(vict) and a con man. plain and simple. *Criminal history* 1990: Larceny prison Trudeau's legal problems are long-standing. In 1990, he posed as a doctor in order to deposit $80,000 in false checks, and in 1991 he pled guilty to larceny after he had provided false information to obtain credit cards which he used for his own purposes. He spent two years in prison because of this conviction.(Choi, 2005) Most people in opposition to Trudeau's claims point to this felony conviction as a good reason not to trust him. 1996: SEC Trudeau rebounded, making a small fortune working for Nutrition For Life, a multi-level marketing program. However, in 1996, his recruitment practices ran afoul of the states of Illinois and Michigan, as well as the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Michigan went so far as to forbid him from operating in the state. 1998: FTC fine Then, in 1998, he was forced to pay $500,000 in consumer redress to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), relating to six infomercials he had produced and which the FTC determined he had made false or misleading claims. 2004: FTC ban, fines More recently, on September 7, 2004, the FTC announced that they were banning Trudeau from appearing in, producing, or disseminating any future infomercials that advertise any type of product because he repeatedly made fraudulent and unsubstantiated claims in them. [1] In addition, Trudeau paid $500,000 in cash and transferred ownership of a luxury vehicle and a piece of residential property in California to satisfy a $2 million fine against him. Lydia Parnes, Acting Director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection stated that This ban is meant to shut down an infomercial empire that has misled American consumers for years. The charges arose from work Trudeau did on an infomercial featuring Bob Barefoot and British actress Debbie Flett advertising coral calcium, a dietary supplement. However, Trudeau's infomercial advertising his book still airs on a daily basis because he is still allowed to promote publications. Airings of these infomercials in 2005 have included a guest appearance by Tammy Faye Bakker. started by people who thought that the famous environmentalist, Dr. David Suzuki, was too dangerous for the commercial world. The rumors about Suzuki, were not good for the environment but they gave amunition to people who were non environmental types. Kevin Trudeau, I am sure, has made some enemies with the Pharmaceutical Corporations and therefore could be a target. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:32:09 -0500 no, Terry, you need to look outside the book he went to prison for larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed was is own larcenous enterprises. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using unauthorized access devices to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked. Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two years probation. did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at ripoffreport.com ? Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for Pharmacitical corporations. That info is in his book. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500 Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know
Re: [Biofuel] $75,000 vaccine offer
or indirectly to the participant's heirs, relations, employers, employees, colleagues, associates, or other persons, organizations, or entities claiming association with, or representation of, the participant, by the participant's participation in the event. The event will be held within six months of the participant's written agreement to the above and further elaborated terms. To the list of potential candidates for the $75,000 Vaccine Offer, 14 members of the CDC's 2006 Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) have been added, as follows: Jon S. Abramson, M.D. Ban Mishu Allos, M.D. Carol Baker, M.D. Janet R. Gilsdorf, M.D. Harry Hull, M.D. Susan Lett, M.D. Tracy Lieu, M.D. Dale L. Morse, M.D. Julia Morita, M.D. Kathleen Neuzil, M.D. Patricia Stinchfield, N.P. Ciro Valent Sumaya, M.D. John J. Treanor, M.D. Robin J. Womeodu, M.D. In the event that any of the above ACIP members' terms expire and they are replaced by new members, the new members will be added automatically to the list of potential candidates for the Vaccine Offer. This offer, dated August 1, 2006, has no expiration date unless superceded by a similar offer of higher remuneration. Contact Jock Doubleday: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/$75,000VaccineOffer.htm - In health, Jock Doubleday Director Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc. A California 501(c)3 Nonprofit Corporation http://www.SpontaneousCreation.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath Vaccination Information Choice Network, Nevada City CA Wales UK $$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account [EMAIL PROTECTED] voicemail US 530-740-0561 (go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm Reality of the Diseases Treatment - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm To unsub - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The above HAS NOT been working lately, so go to the webpage http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vaccineinfo/ to unsubscribe by clicking on 'edit my membership' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vaccineinfo/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vaccineinfo/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NZ Coroners Report on Complementary Medicines
-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: 10/13/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] farming irrigation systems--diesel to NH3
and where do you get the ammonia, why you expend massive amounts of fossil fuels (methane) to reduce the nitrogen in the atmosphere. An d because of the laws of thermodynamics, one will use more energy , hence more greenhouse emissions than if you justs burn the diesel. D. Mindock wrote: Justice Litle [writes]: Most farming irrigation systems run on diesel engines. The fruit and vegetables your family enjoys were probably not just transported by diesel power; they were likely watered with diesel power also, he reports. This could soon change. An Iowa company called Hydrogen Engine Center, specializing in alternative fuel engines, has gone into partnership with Sawtelle Rosprim, a California irrigation pump manufacturer. Together, they plan to introduce the first-ever ammonia-powered irrigation system. Anhydrous ammonia, or NH3, is rich in hydrogen and carbon free; because farmers have long used it for fertilizer, regulations, pipelines and distribution centers for ammonia are already in place. The technology would be especially attractive to California farmers, who are under pressure to comply with increasingly strict emissions rules. A successful test over the 2007 growing season could lead to commercial sales in 2008. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: 10/13/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
D. Mindock wrote: Bob, Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is convicted of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. the problem is that he appears to still be offering up less than the truth. see for example http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Health/story?id=1527774 I am more forgiving, having realized my own numerous faults. There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be safe and effective. and many which have shown to do nothing. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can see many studies there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big Pharma my beloved big pharma? those are your words not mine, so be careful about what you attribute to who. takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and then derives a drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used as medicine for hundreds of years. were going in circles here, I said just the same previously- pharmacognosy You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by this approach. I agree You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech approach if by western medicine you mean efficacy proven via reproducible double blind trials, and supported by statistically significant epidemiology then yes I am held it its sway. to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot this seems to be somewhat meaningless. so how does alt medicine differ in its treatment of the body? and, imo, that's a fundamental error. Not only that, but they insist that only their way is science and we that disagree are goofy. your words not mine. My gripe is with people who couch there arguments about efficacy in science like terminology without any real scientific support. For example at the life extension site, which is there to make money after all, are a lot of questionable and/ or way overpriced nostrums for sale. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs, vitamins, and supplements on the shelves in today's health food store. I keep asking for examples of this. Give me one good example for us to discuss. That is the aim of Codex Alimentarius. Of course, it is to be done to protect the citizens of America, Australia, England, Germany, etc. It will be done with no public input and to harmonize our trade with all of our trade partners. so you think the World Health Organization and the UN are out the keep you from getting herbs? So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent herbs, supplements, vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily allowance) levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing. One example of alt medicine in action: http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in advanced stages of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes actually I find little evidence of success, at least as published in peer reviewed journals. Here is another example of a treatment that is wrapped in science so to speak, but has generated scant evidence, other than a few case histories. And these frequently involved other treatments so it is not clear just what is going on. by a bully FDA. Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked, it seems that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business And I bet Burzynski is doing quite well at treating it. whether he is curing it is another matter altogether. and there little incentive to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a threat but he held his ground. and his income My hat is off to him. The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The monographs are available in book form. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) D. Mindock wrote: I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. no, the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he only sells books about health care products. I got his last two books. They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says. keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud. He stole peoples money. what makes you think he's telling the truth now? did you read any of the comments at ripoffreport.com ? he is a scam artist I have seen too many people, friends and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with drugs, and as long
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
D. Mindock wrote: I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. no, the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he only sells books about health care products. I got his last two books. They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says. keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud. He stole peoples money. what makes you think he's telling the truth now? did you read any of the comments at ripoffreport.com ? he is a scam artist I have seen too many people, friends and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with drugs, and as long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them exclusively. a commendable notion, but where do you get reliable information on efficacy? from a con artist? It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more successful they are, the more they're stymied in their work by the FDA. how do you measure success? The reason they are under attack as you call it not because of success, but because they make unsubstantiated claims. For example mercola -- Mercola gets second warning letter. The FDA has ordered Joseph Mercola, DO and his Optimal Wellness Center to stop making illegal claims for four products. The order was based on product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. The objectionable claims include: **Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to help to virtually eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future. **Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases. **Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease. **Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed to be a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease. --- This is one of the primary functions of the AMA. It has no enforcement powers so it calls on the FDA. It is called protecting thy turf. Alt medicine is growing by leaps and bounds and is the wave of the future, if, a big if, it can survive the onslaught from the FDA, AMA, and Codex Alimentarius. and another big if is can it be proven to really do anything. Big Pharma is the creator/backer of the Codex and I have no doubt that many Repugs and a few key Dems are being primed to pass legislation to make it a done deal in the U$ of A. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. here is the ftc statement http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been treated by the man. http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALLq5=kevin+trudeausubmit2=Search%21q4=q6=q3=q2=q7=searchtype=0 you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. got a verifiable example? You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. now here we agree. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] new alcohol ideas
methanol and castor oil are miscible because castor oil is slightly more polar than other oils/fats. Therefore I would think that glycerin would also be soluble in castor oil. Logan vilas wrote: Would glycerin dissolve in the castor oil or not? If not then castor oil added to glycerin cocktail should cause the methanol to dissolve in it and then the methanol can be recovered water free from the castor oil instead of separating it from the glycerin. It would take much less energy to recover it in that method. Verses cooking it out of the glycerin. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:16 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] new alcohol ideas Howdy Jason, there would be no advantage. In the ethanol/water/castor oil scheme, one mixes E/W/C. only ethanol dissolves in the castor oil. then heating the C/E mix to about 80 degrees C separates the ethanol from the castor oil. what this does is get around the problem of the azeotrope of ethanol/water which is the lowest boiling component of a mix of water/ethanol. You can't separate the last 5% of water from ethanol via distillation. for glycerin this isn't an issue, just heat the stuff to close to 300 degrees C. anything that boils off at a lower temp is impurity, after is glycerin. (short form of discussion) Jason Katie wrote: i just had a bizarre idea. someone please argue with me on this, but if glycerine is categorized as an alcohol, would it work to use castor oil to purify it, the same as ethanol? ideas?comments? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bob Allen http://www.ozarker.org/bob - Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves. Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. here is the ftc statement http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been treated by the man. http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALLq5=kevin+trudeausubmit2=Search%21q4=q6=q3=q2=q7=searchtype=0 you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. got a verifiable example? You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. now here we agree. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500 That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless array of hucksters? So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500 Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be bought to produce desired outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to run computer models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more closely to reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard. Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge into hung-over college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe inspiring at times. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence) Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head. These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by synthetic processes just don't hack it. Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to some degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I guess more correctly that you should be lumping me
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
no, Terry, you need to look outside the book he went to prison for larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed was is own larcenous enterprises. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using unauthorized access devices to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked. Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two years probation. did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at ripoffreport.com ? Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for Pharmacitical corporations. That info is in his book. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500 Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. here is the ftc statement http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been treated by the man. http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALLq5=kevin+trudeausubmit2=Search%21q4=q6=q3=q2=q7=searchtype=0 you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, The book titled Natural Cures they don't want you to know about, by Kevin Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world. Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt work to please the share holders of his company. then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. He was expected to do this corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA quite often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of Drug companies profits. got a verifiable example? You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc. now here we agree. From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500 That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless array of hucksters? So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Fri
Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.
you mean hydrogenated oil, hydrolyzed oil would be free fatty acids. the scold JJJN wrote: Hi Keith, I guess I am spoiled with the hydrolized oil I use that is mixed with about 50 % animal fat. But I must use a heated system in winter as I gel around 45 degrees F. So winterizing is my big project now. Let me know how you do with the Venturi. -- Bob Allen http://www.ozarker.org/bob - Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves. Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is what I should have sent: Howdy Terry, Terry Dyck wrote: Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good science and bad science. bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue information via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. When it comes to the western world and health money seems to be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless array of hucksters? So we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. This is not good for human health. Terry Dyck From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500 Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be bought to produce desired outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to run computer models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more closely to reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard. Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge into hung-over college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe inspiring at times. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence) Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head. These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by synthetic processes just don't hack it. Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to some degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are saying about the others. I am very scientifically inclined, I run a university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the answers. I still have great respect for science and believe that one day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain. All I am suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be rejected. I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in dissagreement. I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed minded. Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://www.ozarker.org/bob - Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves. Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.
JJJN wrote: Dang it I hate it when I make the same mistake twice. Again thanks for keeping me straight. I also understand that it is important to be clear when you are talking about things so closely related. Could you give me a quick overview of what exactly happens in the hydrogenation of oil and why that affects the gel point? ok I'll give it a shot. Liquids solidify when all the component molecules can nestle together. The more regular their structure, the more easily this will happen. Saturated fats have a more regular structure than unsaturated fats, hence their gel points are higher. the unsaturation in vegetable oil amounts to putting kinks in otherwise regular chains. Hydrogenation converts the source of the kinks- cis double bounds- to regular saturated chains, hence raising the gel point. to recap: saturated lipids, (usually from animal sources and called fats) regular structure, easy nestling, high gel point. unsaturated lipids ( usually from plant sources and called oils) irregular structure, difficult nestling, low gel point. unsaturated bonds + hydrogen--- saturated bonds (the process is hence hydrogenation) Jim bob allen wrote: you mean hydrogenated oil, hydrolyzed oil would be free fatty acids. the scold JJJN wrote: Hi Keith, I guess I am spoiled with the hydrolized oil I use that is mixed with about 50 % animal fat. But I must use a heated system in winter as I gel around 45 degrees F. So winterizing is my big project now. Let me know how you do with the Venturi. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be concerned with.
just a point on terminology 4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it. you mean hydrogenated, not hydrolyzed. Hydrolyzed oil would be free fatty acids. -- Bob Allen http://www.ozarker.org/bob - Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves. Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
and howdy to you Keith Addison wrote: Hello Bob ... until the onset of Big Pharma (plus unforeseeable side-effects). Uh, all those unforeseeable side-effects wouldn't just happen to be a very powerful application of the placebo effect either, would they now. actually some may be. The nocebo effect is well known. Uh, try telling it to a thalidomide baby. Or his/her mother. Or, with so many tips of so many icebergs to choose from, how about these? For instance. actually I said some. I was not implying all. I am well aware of the thalidomide issue. In fact I use it as a case study in my tox class. An interesting feature if this is that although the drug was approved for use in Europe and england, cases of phcomelia started showing up around 1959. Because of the then active FDA in the US, it had not been approved. Dare I say that it had not been approved yet in the US because of higher scientific standards for safety and efficacy. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg54672.html [Biofuel] How a New Policy Led to Seven Deadly Drugs (The whole series is there in the archives.) Sure, as Robert was saying, vaccinations and antibiotics certainly have their uses - without them how many people would have died of smallpox and polio etc? On the other hand, how many people would have died in the same period without the widespread global use of their traditional medicine systems (which is what the much-maligned alternatives mostly are)? More would be dead, many more, hence the rather more than mere lip-service paid to traditional healers by the WHO in 3rd World development work. one more time, I am not saying that traditional medicine in aggregate is ineffective, only that in a few recent cases which have in the past been touted as efficacious, the recored is mixed at best. Hence my adherence to science as the ultimate arbiter. As Kirk says, once a community has been using a remedy for generations they'll know how effective it is and what the dangerous side-effects might be. Testimonial evidence, yes. Much the same as the way medical science so often has to have its feet pulled out of the fire by the findings of epidemiological studies. I consider epidimiology a effective methodology if done correctly. Epidemiology can discover effects undetectable in limited trials, simply because of the numbers. Consider for example the testing of an agent be it an herb, supplement or drug (they really are the same thing). You test it in a group of a thousand and find no ill effect. You then market it and there turns out to be a fatal effect that only is observed one in ten thousand times. Hence epidemiological studies are merely another phase in testing So much for test-tubes sans real life in the real world with all its pesky variables and inconvenient interconnections. that what science is all about- an attempt to untangle those variables to see what is real. Both sides have their abuses and abusers. Quackery? How would you describe Bayer's extraordinary attitude in refusing to withdraw the antibiotics used in livestock feed that have led to lethally immune pathogens for which there's now no cure? This danger - now a reality (people are being killed by it) - was first revealed in scientific studies decades ago. I agree, science can only produce data, political action is necessary Using antibiotics in livestock feed is useless anyway - see the Danish example, for one. No more antibiotics, no problems either, in a large national poultry industry. True science? Am I now to be labelled anti-science in this futile attempt to draw a clear line where there can only be grey areas? no, in fact it would appear that you are taking a relatively scientific approach. and a final note in closing: I will be away from my computer to attend for the umteenth time, the Helena blues festival, in the heart of the delta on the Mississippi river. back Sunday ( I am an old hippy, who makes his living as a chemistry professor.) http://www.bluesandheritage.com/ toodles -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
every thing was hunky dory until you tried to align me with Bush- them's fighten' words ;-) the obvious difference between me an a number of others on this list is simply what we are willing to accept as credible evidence. Generally, I look for studies, published in peer reviewed journals of double blind placebo controlled experiments and/or well controlled prospective epidemiological studies. That is a very high standard to meet, but if met I can be relatively sure that I am not fooling myself (see the tag line below) Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; Sorry for the cheap shot I thought you would take it as good natured humour which is the way it was intended. Well I'm no neurologist but I thought the sensory motor cortex is where a lot of that sensation stuff goes on. I know this because my daughter has partial seizures in that very area and she experiences pain every time she has a seizure. If accupuncture results in higher activation thresholds ( ie deactivation) in that area does that not mean effectively - anaesthesia? That was how I understood the paper but perhaps I have it all wrong. Anyways I felt it WAS the serious support for my argument that you asked for. The other comment re the herb cure was just added as an offhand remark, again with humour, not intended to change the subject or run from anything, as I said I felt I had a strong reference as it was. Cheers Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob! I like the way you cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the sham group .here However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex. I edited at this point as the following does not describe the aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites. Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that acupuncture works as an anesthetic. BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make more money writing historical fiction for bushco please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary No I haven't had surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic. But I do have a testimonial about how a chinese herbalist You're changing the subject Joe. I have yet to see you respond to my calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for anesthesia in major surgery. Come on, where the support for your claim. cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6 months and western treatments were worse than ineffective. But I know you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that time. LMAO. OK OK. lets just drop the subject I guess. We each have our own viewpoints and leave it at that. we already quite herbs but now you bring them back. The subject is proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery. A pretty simple premise Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
so Kirk if this is evidence of efficacy, (reality) is mine also? http://grouper.com/video/MediaDetails.aspx?id=422258 If my video is not reality, but yours is, what criteria do you use to separate the two Kirk McLoren wrote: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-799443241400641366q=acupuncture http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-799443241400641366q=acupuncture Open heart surgery with only acupuncture as anesthetic. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got to be better. I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. Joe bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 you show me what you have. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Ever been under general anaesthesia? yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb Remember how you felt when you came around? groggy Did you puke? no Like the worst hangover you ever had? not at all Now you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have to go get references for this? you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how it works. It's a waste of time for something so obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two to support your claim? Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; snip explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with anaesthetic. ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial please
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the placebo effect? D. Mindock wrote: I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back in the OR with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as they worked on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One was where I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while doing deep knee bends (don't try this) with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. The doc gave me pain pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. After a couple days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I saw the size of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first needle in the knee I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. He stuck some more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles out. I walked out of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain came back, as he said it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches and pain pills which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did give permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends on the skill of the practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely placed on meridians and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending on the problem. These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized electronic equipment. They really exist. How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned perceptual powers. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got to be better. I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. Joe bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 you show me what you have. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Ever been under general anaesthesia? yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb Remember how you felt when you came around? groggy Did you puke? no Like the worst hangover you ever had? not at all Now you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have to go get references for this? you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One was where I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while doing deep knee bends (don't try this) with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. The doc gave me pain pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. After a couple days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I saw the size of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first needle in the knee I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. He stuck some more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles out. I walked out of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain came back, as he said it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches and pain pills which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did give permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends on the skill of the practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely placed on meridians and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending on the problem. These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized electronic equipment. They really exist. How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned perceptual powers. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art 01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupointñbrain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got to be better. I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. Joe bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 you show me what you have. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Ever been under general anaesthesia? yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb Remember how you felt when you came around? groggy Did you puke? no Like the worst hangover you ever had? not at all Now you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have to go get references for this? you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how it works. It's a waste of time for something so obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL this has nothing to do with the claim
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
D. Mindock wrote: Bob, How many people have herbs (or supplements, essential oils, vitamins) killed vs Prescrip drugs? I don't have any data, do you. In my personal experience 0 for 0. But in reality that is an unfair question. The fair question would be what is the therapeutic ratio of any particular agent, be it an herb or a pharmaceutical. How many people have had their disease helped with prescrip drugs? in my personal experience many, and there is overwhelming proof of efficacy of many, many drugs. which only take care of symptoms I hear this a lot, it is a standard line among certain groups, but essentially meaningless. at best and cause many side-effects, all nasty. um, you just said yourself that herbs have side effects, remember. so what is the point quoteGimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely. Everything has a risk/benefit ratio. The so-called science that validates these drugs is shameful. again you are confusing fraud with science. The reference to the bible was only to indicate that herbs have been around a long time. If they weren't effective or helpful, don't you think they would have disappeared a long time ago? no, the placebo effect is powerful If they were not effective do you think Big Pharma would be combing the jungles looking for herbs used by indigenous people for quite a long time? crimey, D. we have been through this before. I said it my self. testimonial is unreliable data. period Data is everywhere. We live immersed in data. Some can see it where it points and others can't. Why should we abandon our intuition? intuition is great for formulating a hypothesis. it sucks as evidence For science? Science will never show us the ultimate truth. your changing the subject here D. I never said anything about nirvana Any thinking scientist should use all the clues (mysteries) that are around us and in us I and I dare say the majority of my colleagues do to. I am not however gullible. and be in awe of Nature. I enjoy nature, I want to preserve our environment, but to be full of awe- well that is getting a little religious. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof D. Mindock wrote: Gimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely. Everything has a risk/benefit ratio. I agree, that is what I have been saying all along. The dose makes the poison... paracelsus Even water can be dangerous if you drink too much. Hard to do this but possible. actually this is a serious issue in certain diseases such as schizophrenia http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=1587518dopt=Abstract But precrip drugs have a very poor safety record, especially when studies are compromised to give the desired result. and you don't think that the promotion of herbs and supplements might be affected by the income sales? you have to be kidding. That is not science. Essential oils, derived from herbs, are mentioned in the Bible many times. bible smible, what does the one true god, the flying spaghetti monster say? if there is money to be made whether in what you call big pharma or little herb dealers, caveat emptor. Me, I will avoid testimonials as evidence of efficacy. Everybody keeps telling me follow the money, fair enough, but I say to - show me the data Spikenard comes to mind. Some studies are designed to fail from the beginning. E.g., the vit E study that said vit E does not protect the heart. They intentionally used the dl type. Still it did provide a weak protective effect if one actually read the results and ignored the media hysteria. If they had used d-alpha type the results would have been better. show me the data But no, they used the synthetic form instead. And if they had used gamma tocopherol the results would have been good indeed. show me the data Anyway, we're being softened to give up our supplements or have them drastically weakened. Big Pharma wants no competition nobody does, and if you look closely you will probably find big pharma behind a number of supplements. They are not dumb, they like everybody else is in it, to some degree for the money. With herbs and supplements you don't need proof, just pay someone to give testimony. and will use money and junk science to get rid of it. And disinfo. We the People (the workers) are getting the royal shaft in health, finances, and freedom. We used to pursue these things but now our government's policies is making them nonavailable. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:32 PM *Subject:* Re
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
MK DuPree wrote: Hang in there D. Not sure Bob can ever wrap his microscope sorry, I don't use them around what you're saying, but maybe one day, when he takes one Big Pharma too many and a side effect becomes a major effect that makes him wonder why that isolated molecule combined with all those other isolated molecules somehow could not perform the same synergistic effects as the originals that evolved through millions of years of Mother Nature's formulations. Mike DuPree ah yes the vitalist theory of chemistry- nature is good, synthesis is bad. nonsense, this is an absolutist position with no meaning. drugs are good and bad and herbs are good and bad. All I want is proof, hold the testimonial. and that is all you guys give me. - Original Message - From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Bob, How many people have herbs (or supplements, essential oils, vitamins) killed vs Prescrip drugs? How many people have had their disease helped with prescrip drugs? which only take care of symptoms at best and cause many side-effects, all nasty. The so-called science that validates these drugs is shameful. The reference to the bible was only to indicate that herbs have been around a long time. If they weren't effective or helpful, don't you think they would have disappeared a long time ago? If they were not effective do you think Big Pharma would be combing the jungles looking for herbs used by indigenous people for quite a long time? Data is everywhere. We live immersed in data. Some can see it where it points and others can't. Why should we abandon our intuition? For science? Science will never show us the ultimate truth. Any thinking scientist should use all the clues (mysteries) that are around us and in us and be in awe of Nature. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof D. Mindock wrote: Gimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely. Everything has a risk/benefit ratio. I agree, that is what I have been saying all along. The dose makes the poison... paracelsus Even water can be dangerous if you drink too much. Hard to do this but possible. actually this is a serious issue in certain diseases such as schizophrenia http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=1587518dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=1587518dopt=Abstract But precrip drugs have a very poor safety record, especially when studies are compromised to give the desired result. and you don't think that the promotion of herbs and supplements might be affected by the income sales? you have to be kidding. That is not science. Essential oils, derived from herbs, are mentioned in the Bible many times. bible smible, what does the one true god, the flying spaghetti monster say? if there is money to be made whether in what you call big pharma or little herb dealers, caveat emptor. Me, I will avoid testimonials as evidence of efficacy. Everybody keeps telling me follow the money, fair enough, but I say to - show me the data Spikenard comes to mind. Some studies are designed to fail from the beginning. E.g., the vit E study that said vit E does not protect the heart. They intentionally used the dl type. Still it did provide a weak protective effect if one actually read the results and ignored the media hysteria. If they had used d-alpha type the results would have been better. show me the data But no, they used the synthetic form instead. And if they had used gamma tocopherol the results would have been good indeed. show me the data Anyway, we're being softened to give up our supplements or have them drastically weakened. Big Pharma wants no competition nobody does, and if you look closely you will probably find big pharma behind a number of supplements. They are not dumb, they like everybody else is in it, to some degree for the money. With herbs and supplements you don't need proof, just pay someone to give testimony. and will use money and junk science to get rid of it. And disinfo. We the People (the workers) are getting the royal shaft in health, finances, and freedom. We used to pursue these things but now our government's policies is making them nonavailable. Peace, D. Mindock
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Guys, can't we get past testimonies for evidence? Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by Northern American Natives for thousands of years. so? Ayurvedic doctors of India have studied herbs for centuries and they drink their urine, so what? and so have Chinese herbal practicianers. they also use tiger penises and bears gall bladders, so what? Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining. but not as bad a willow bark salicin It can also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time. I have never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark. uh, testimonial again. sorry Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500 Howdy Terry. First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years of testimonies? because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial. This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs have been discovered from an examination of traditional medicine. You can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example. http://www.phcog.org/ Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid, obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american indians. Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to the lining of the stomach. Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't survived scientific scrutiny. glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via placebo controlled studies. of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang (ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits. you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the information. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Good point. On the other hand is there not a difference between a short term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of testimonies? Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500 you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence: NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover investigation in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for an alleged skin moisturizer called Moisturol. Even though the producer was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked, he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven satisfied customers were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen, M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your product to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/ -- Bob Allen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Kirk McLoren wrote: The scary warning I am hearing is aspirin weakens blood vessels in the eye rendering you possibly blind if you fall or otherwise subject the eye to trauma. I am told Ginko does not do that teswtimonial and offers all the blood thinning of aspirin for those taking aspirin for cardio benefit. Kirk */Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Hi Bob, Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by Northern American Natives for thousands of years. Ayurvedic doctors of India have studied herbs for centuries and so have Chinese herbal practicianers. Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining. It can also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time. I have never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark. Terry Dyck From: bob allen Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500 Howdy Terry. First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years of testimonies? because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial. This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs have been discovered from an examination of traditional medicine. You can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example. http://www.phcog.org/ Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid, obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american indians. Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to the lining of the stomach. Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't survived scientific scrutiny. glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via placebo controlled studies. of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang (ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits. you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the information. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Good point. On the other hand is there not a difference between a short term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of testimonies? Terry Dyck From: bob allen Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500 you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence: NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover investigation in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for an alleged skin moisturizer called Moisturol. Even though the producer was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked, he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven satisfied customers were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen, M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your product to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/ -- Bob Allen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; I said it before and I'll say it again. Who's gonna spend the money to scientifically prove something they cannot control, conversely, why try to provide reproducible data when testimony sells? works? Just for this reason there isn't much to go on but testimony. However the corollary, someone with a lot of money, and who stands to lose a lot would see it as a good investment to publish information which makes herbs look bad, now that is a good possibility, vis big oil's spending on anti-global warming research and disinformation campaign. However much you may be able to shoot me down on this, I'll go ahead and say it; there is something sorta scientific we can say in this case. We rely on statistical information so heavily, sure a handful of bought testimonials are worthless but what about generations worth? and I have said it before, one testimonial is one, a hundred is a hundred, its still testimonial. I do know that lots of traditional remedies contain efficacious agents, which have been proven. I also know that some herbs which claim to work are tested, don't. What about a thousand years worth? It's not a double blind study but obviously something is up and people are on to it. If something is crap and is hyped up with bought and paid for testimonials, it's not gonna stand the test of time is it? it depends on how gullible the buyer is, doesn't it Another example? Nobody has a scientific explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with anaesthetic. ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial please. It's been known to work for a long time but nobody can explain it. IF IT works, I can explain it- placebo effect. Perhaps our science isn't good enough yet. Should we abandon accupuncture on this principle then? sticking needles a specific locations in the body to interrupt Qi, which has no scientific reality, is producing a placebo effect if there any effect at all. Joe bob allen wrote: Guys, can't we get past testimonies for evidence? Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by Northern American Natives for thousands of years. so? Ayurvedic doctors of India have studied herbs for centuries and they drink their urine, so what? and so have Chinese herbal practicianers. they also use tiger penises and bears gall bladders, so what? Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining. but not as bad a willow bark salicin It can also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time. I have never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark. uh, testimonial again. sorry Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500 Howdy Terry. First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years of testimonies? because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial. This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs have been discovered from an examination of traditional medicine. You can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example. http://www.phcog.org/ Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid, obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american indians. Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to the lining of the stomach. Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't survived scientific scrutiny. glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via placebo controlled studies. of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang (ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits. you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the information. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Good point. On the other hand is there not a difference between a short term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of testimonies? Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500 you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence: NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover investigation in which an infomercial producer
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 you show me what you have. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Ever been under general anaesthesia? yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb Remember how you felt when you came around? groggy Did you puke? no Like the worst hangover you ever had? not at all Now you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have to go get references for this? you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how it works. It's a waste of time for something so obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two to support your claim? Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; snip explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with anaesthetic. ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial please. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River,
MK DuPree wrote: snip wow, I've become an archetype, even an cultural icon. :-) We've become like the Bob's of the world, lost all our sense of awe. oh, that's just awefull -- Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got to be better. I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. Joe bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 you show me what you have. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Ever been under general anaesthesia? yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb Remember how you felt when you came around? groggy Did you puke? no Like the worst hangover you ever had? not at all Now you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have to go get references for this? you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how it works. It's a waste of time for something so obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two to support your claim? Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; snip explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with anaesthetic. ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial please. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Joe Street wrote: Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob! I like the way you cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the sham group .here However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex. I edited at this point as the following does not describe the aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites. Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that acupuncture works as an anesthetic. BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make more money writing historical fiction for bushco please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary No I haven't had surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic. But I do have a testimonial about how a chinese herbalist You're changing the subject Joe. I have yet to see you respond to my calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for anesthesia in major surgery. Come on, where the support for your claim. cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6 months and western treatments were worse than ineffective. But I know you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that time. LMAO. OK OK. lets just drop the subject I guess. We each have our own viewpoints and leave it at that. we already quite herbs but now you bring them back. The subject is proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery. A pretty simple premise Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got to be better. I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. Joe bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 you show me what you have. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Ever been under general anaesthesia? yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb Remember how you felt when you came around? groggy Did you puke? no Like the worst hangover you ever had? not at all Now you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have to go get references for this? you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
D. Mindock wrote: Gimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely. Everything has a risk/benefit ratio. I agree, that is what I have been saying all along. The dose makes the poison... paracelsus Even water can be dangerous if you drink too much. Hard to do this but possible. actually this is a serious issue in certain diseases such as schizophrenia http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=1587518dopt=Abstract But precrip drugs have a very poor safety record, especially when studies are compromised to give the desired result. and you don't think that the promotion of herbs and supplements might be affected by the income sales? you have to be kidding. That is not science. Essential oils, derived from herbs, are mentioned in the Bible many times. bible smible, what does the one true god, the flying spaghetti monster say? if there is money to be made whether in what you call big pharma or little herb dealers, caveat emptor. Me, I will avoid testimonials as evidence of efficacy. Everybody keeps telling me follow the money, fair enough, but I say to - show me the data Spikenard comes to mind. Some studies are designed to fail from the beginning. E.g., the vit E study that said vit E does not protect the heart. They intentionally used the dl type. Still it did provide a weak protective effect if one actually read the results and ignored the media hysteria. If they had used d-alpha type the results would have been better. show me the data But no, they used the synthetic form instead. And if they had used gamma tocopherol the results would have been good indeed. show me the data Anyway, we're being softened to give up our supplements or have them drastically weakened. Big Pharma wants no competition nobody does, and if you look closely you will probably find big pharma behind a number of supplements. They are not dumb, they like everybody else is in it, to some degree for the money. With herbs and supplements you don't need proof, just pay someone to give testimony. and will use money and junk science to get rid of it. And disinfo. We the People (the workers) are getting the royal shaft in health, finances, and freedom. We used to pursue these things but now our government's policies is making them nonavailable. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:32 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Margaret Olsen, M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for her endorsement. Thats the problem with most of the MD pharma endorsements. placebo works as well or better. The white coat has heavy mojo. Herbs on the other hand have been endorsed by thousands of practitioners over dozens or more of generations. Which do you trust? */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence: NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover investigation in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for an alleged skin moisturizer called Moisturol. Even though the producer was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked, he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven satisfied customers were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen, M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your product to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/ -- Bob Allen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org
Re: [Biofuel] new alcohol ideas
Howdy Jason, there would be no advantage. In the ethanol/water/castor oil scheme, one mixes E/W/C. only ethanol dissolves in the castor oil. then heating the C/E mix to about 80 degrees C separates the ethanol from the castor oil. what this does is get around the problem of the azeotrope of ethanol/water which is the lowest boiling component of a mix of water/ethanol. You can't separate the last 5% of water from ethanol via distillation. for glycerin this isn't an issue, just heat the stuff to close to 300 degrees C. anything that boils off at a lower temp is impurity, after is glycerin. (short form of discussion) Jason Katie wrote: i just had a bizarre idea. someone please argue with me on this, but if glycerine is categorized as an alcohol, would it work to use castor oil to purify it, the same as ethanol? ideas?comments? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Odigo says workers were warned of attack [9/11]
you know, if I ran a business and wanted to get my name out there, one way of doing it would be to start a rumor that something about what I do had some connection to 9/11 and then let the conspiracy folks run with it... remember this name Odigo. You are getting very sleepy, Odigo, very, very, sleepy, buy Odigo... D. Mindock wrote: Odigo, an Israeli company, has an office not far from the location of WTC. Peace, D. Mindock = http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744contrassID=/has%5C http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744contrassID=/has%5C Odigo says workers were warned of attack By Yuval Dror mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Odigo, the instant messaging service, says that two of its workers received messages two hours before the Twin Towers attack on September 11 predicting the attack would happen, and the company has been cooperating with Israeli and American law enforcement, including the FBI, in trying to find the original sender of the message predicting the attack. Micha Macover, CEO of the company, said the two workers received the messages and immediately after the terror attack informed the company's management, which immediately contacted the Israeli security services, which brought in the FBI. I have no idea why the message was sent to these two workers, who don't know the sender. It may just have been someone who was joking and turned out they accidentally got it right. And I don't know if our information was useful in any of the arrests the FBI has made, said Macover. Odigo is a U.S.-based company whose headquarters are in New York, with offices in Herzliya. As an instant messaging service, Odigo users are not limited to sending messages only to people on their buddy list, as is the case with ICQ, the other well-known Israeli instant messaging application. Odigo usually zealously protects the privacy of its registered users, said Macover, but in this case the company took the initiative to provide the law enforcement services with the originating Internet Presence address of the message, so the FBI could track down the Internet Service Provider, and the actual sender of the original message. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 9/29/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Bush Owes Us an Apology
robert and benita rabello wrote: D. Mindock wrote: *This will be important history someday. Everyone should read it. Pat* ** Yesterday, the US Senate approved detainee legislation that essentially hands dictatorial power over to the president. Once this bill is reconciled with the House version and is signed by Mr. Bush, he will have the right to detain anyone he deems a threat--irrespective of their citizenship--without trial, without evidence, for as long as it pleases him. I thought, for a gleaming moment, that Senator McCain would show some spine naw, he has to move to the right to survive a republican nomination... and garner support to defeat this ill-conceived legislation, but he and other senators who should know better simply caved in. Welcome to the fascist Republic of the United States . . . Mr. Bush doesn't need to apologize if he's king. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 9/29/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Thermate used on the WTC buildings
there is an old saw- the first liar doesn't stand a chance. I am by no means calling anybody a liar, I'm just using that saw to segue to- the first conspiracy doesn't... here is one that thinks Steven Jones is all wet, yet they apparently have their own conspiracy http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=7095 or here is one Did NORAD Send The Suicide Jets? Part 1 of 2: Inside Job http://www.public-action.com/911/noradsend.html or this, it wasn't norad, it was the israeli's : http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/stf1.html or maybe it never happened, it was faked at fox news: http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/ et al. so gee, who's conspiracy are we to believe? ;- Kirk McLoren wrote: I wonder if the members of this list that cant conceive of a government that would do this can get their minds around this interview? The professor certainly presents the simple truth. Kirk */D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: If there's conclusive evidence that thermite or thermate (souped up form of thermite is called thermate) was used in the collapse of the three WTC buildings then the conspiracy theory is no longer a theory. It becomes an unsettling fact that it was indeed an inside job. Peace, D. Mindock == 1 of 2 Thermite Identified As Culprit Of WTC Collapse Evidence mounting that cause first identified on Alex Jones Show led to towers' implosion A new branch of 9/11 research claims to have identified the cause of the collapse of the twin towers. The photographic and video evidence makes a very strong case for thermite being responsible for the unprecedented implosions of steel framed reinforced buildings on September 11. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/240406thermiteidentified.htm 2 of 2 Alex Jones interviews Steven Jones, a BYU physics professor, who has scientifically proven that a special mix of thermite and sulfur and *...* all *»* javascript:void(0) some other chemicals, known as thermate, was used to cut the WTC steel backbones. Thermate is widely used by the military and demolition companies as the cutting charges. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-284238498383411 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 9/29/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Thermate used on the WTC buildings
hear ye, I am the ONE TRUE CONSPIRACY, thou shalt have no other conspiracies before me... Kirk McLoren wrote: And the metal samples from the memorial site. Lets mark out the cold fusion with a felt tip and reduce the reply to relevant comments. Another argument by obfuscation they are so practiced at. Physical evidence - and why was it destroyed? Samples couldnt be taken of metals sold as scrap? Why is that Bob? They couldnt get rid of the Murrah building fast enough either. That rubbble landfill is under armed guard last I heard. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: there is an old saw- the first liar doesn't stand a chance. I am by no means calling anybody a liar, I'm just using that saw to segue to- the first conspiracy doesn't... here is one that thinks Steven Jones is all wet, yet they apparently have their own conspiracy http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=7095 or here is one Did NORAD Send The Suicide Jets? Part 1 of 2: Inside Job http://www.public-action.com/911/noradsend.html or this, it wasn't norad, it was the israeli's : http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/stf1.html or maybe it never happened, it was faked at fox news: http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/ et al. so gee, who's conspiracy are we to believe? ;- Kirk McLoren wrote: I wonder if the members of this list that cant conceive of a government that would do this can get their minds around this interview? The professor certainly presents the simple truth. Kirk */D. Mindock /* wrote: If there's conclusive evidence that thermite or thermate (souped up form of thermite is called thermate) was used in the collapse of the three WTC buildings then the conspiracy theory is no longer a theory. It becomes an unsettling fact that it was indeed an inside job. Peace, D. Mindock == 1 of 2 Thermite Identified As Culprit Of WTC Collapse Evidence mounting that cause first identified on Alex Jones Show led to towers' implosion A new branch of 9/11 research claims to have identified the cause of the collapse of the twin towers. The photographic and video evidence makes a very strong case for thermite being responsible for the unprecedented implosions of steel framed reinforced buildings on September 11. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/240406thermiteidentified.htm 2 of 2 Alex Jones interviews Steven Jones, a BYU physics professor, who has scientifically proven that a special mix of thermite and sulfur and *...* all *»* some other chemicals, known as thermate, was used to cut the WTC steel backbones. Thermate is widely used by the military and demolition companies as the cutting charges. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-284238498383411 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 9/29/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG
[Biofuel] testimonials as proof
you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence: NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover investigation in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for an alleged skin moisturizer called Moisturol. Even though the producer was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked, he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven satisfied customers were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen, M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your product to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/ -- Bob Allen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Howdy Terry. First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years of testimonies? because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial. This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs have been discovered from an examination of traditional medicine. You can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example. http://www.phcog.org/ Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid, obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american indians. Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to the lining of the stomach. Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't survived scientific scrutiny. glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via placebo controlled studies. of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang (ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits. you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the information. Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Good point. On the other hand is there not a difference between a short term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of testimonies? Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500 you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence: NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover investigation in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for an alleged skin moisturizer called Moisturol. Even though the producer was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked, he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven satisfied customers were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen, M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your product to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/ -- Bob Allen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Illegal Immigration: The Treason Lobby
So Marylynn, if this was the position taken before european immigration to the western hemisphere, where would you be today? Marylynn Schmidt wrote: Interesting article Blankhttp://libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=159963 Mary Lynn Schmidt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Illegal Immigration: The Treason Lobby
sounds downright racist to me. They are not Western; they are of Aztlan... Just look at the ethnic composition of Mexicans. Other than a small upper class of pure European blood, the vast majority of Mexicans are either Amerindian or Mestizos (mostly Amerindian with a few drops of Spaniard, or African, blood). In short, they are not European. They are Asiatic... Jason Katie wrote: sounds a little aryan/survivalist/militant to me. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:46 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Illegal Immigration: The Treason Lobby Interesting article Blankhttp://libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=159963 Mary Lynn Schmidt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
when it comes to drugs, or herbs, or anything that impacts human physiology, the only reliable of measure of efficacy is reproducible, double blind, placebo controlled testing. Anything else is way to easy to manipulate (follow the money as I am told) Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, If you do not consider testamonies from thousands of people as science than what is science? Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:54:50 -0500 Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, You are streching to find extreme examples from very diferent cultures. I never consider animal parts to be a herb. Don't herbs have to be part of the botanical family? It is true that some parts of a few plants are poisiness. The leaves of rhubard for an example. The red stems of rhubard, however, are very nutritious. Herbs are basically plant foods and they are very healthy. Herbs have been used for thousands of years. Many people over those years have many testamonies of good results with using herbs. Is this not good science? no it is not. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:26:56 -0500 Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Again, follow the money. Where is the funding going to come from to test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves. Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they are forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't going to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell. I totally agree, Joe. But that still doesn't answer the question about the true efficacy of numerous agents. For instance, there has been a rash of poaching black bears in the Ozarks. The carcases are found sans gal bladders. Why, because many, many years of tradition in some cultures tells them that consuming the bear gal bladder makes you a more manly man. That same argument is used for efficacy of tiger's penises and numerous herbs. How do you tell what is real and what is not? it is a very simple question with no simple answers. Joe bob allen wrote: snip The problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is lacking. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Kirk McLoren wrote: No - the beta carotene is water soluble. want to bet? I guess you wouldn't trust me, but regardless, I worked with the stuff last spring, I had a student examine the UV spectra of beta carotene (dissolved in benzene) vs the spectrum of red palm oil. the are essentially identical. the point is I know that the stuff water insoluble. Just look at the chemical structure- its a hydrocarbon. BETA-CAROTENE SOLUBILITY IN WATER, insoluble. pH. VAPOR DENSITY. REFRACTIVE INDEX ... One molecule of beta-carotene splits into two molecules of vitamin A and thus ... www.chemicalland21.com/lifescience/foco/BETA-CAROTENE.htm - 65k - Cached - Similar pages now you find me a citation where it says the stuff is water soluble. The premise is the body wont make a toxic level of vitamin A from it. As for quack watch they are a bunch of quacks. Good god Bob what do you expect a bunch of allopaths to say about non allopathic medicine? ah yes, allopathy, otherwise known as science-based medicine vs homeopathy, otherwise known as nonsense. It will be a cold day in hell when they give an unprejudiced report. Our metasticised cancer cure rate is no better than before -- after 30 years of war on cancer The only improvement the allopaths have is earlier detection. do you have a reference for that statistic? Is it from the same source that informed you about the solubility of beta carotene? I do know that for most cancers both morbidity and mortality are both down over the last 30 yrs. see the rather extensive files available at http://www.cancer.gov/statistics/ And we are to bend our knee and kiss their ring? I think not. just you kirk, not me. ;- As for non Harvard data base modalities the cesium chloride mouse study was interesting yet all we see is is the American Cancer Society warning about toxicity. you lost me here, direct me to a reference to the CsCl study The master poisoners - and that is what chemotherapy um, this would be ad hominem by proxy attack? is - discourage cesium because the ld50 is 160 grams or thereabouts. the simplest probe of toxicity is LD50 usually expressed as mass/unit body wt. You gave me a number that is undefined. From the literature one finds: Oral rat LD50: 2004 mg/kg. Oral mouse LD50: 2306 mg/kg. Investigated as a mutagen and reproductive effector. I'm curious Bob what the ld50 for NaCl is. ORL-RAT LD50 3000 mg kg-1 this stuff is really easy to get kirk, I send my students to the literature every day for toxicological data I think 160 grams of table salt could be quite an ordeal. So the ACS hype is just that perhaps. The university study claimed remission in 97% of the mice if I recall correctly. So where is the double blind study? LEF hosts the federal paper. Not their work - and the study was vitamin A not beta carotene. LEF is a good resource. They have a lot of interesting papers. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: Actually the carrot contains beta carotene yes of course, and it is what makes red palm oil red. which is used in the body to make vitamin A. It is water soluble no kirk, not that it matters here but it is one of the fat soluble vitamins. It is stored in the liver of many animals. and Lorraine Day MD took enough to turn herself orange. She believed it helped her overcome breast cancer. actually there is no evidence that it was cancer. from quackwatch.com Lorraine Day, M.D., would like you to believe that she has discovered the answer to cancer and that her experience as a patient qualifies her to give advice about cancer. She warns against trusting the medical profession and claims that all drugs can cause cancer. Her videotapes state (falsely) that standard cancer treatment has never cured anyone and that nobody should undergo chemotherapy and radiation for any cancer. She speaks eloquently and from the heart, but her tapes are filled with factual errors and far-fetched claims. I believe that her advice is untrustworthy and dangerous to the extent that it steers people away from effective treatment. The centerpiece of Day's story is that she cured herself of a grapefruit-sized lump that she says was a recurrence of her breast cancer. But she has refused to disclose any medical records that would confirm that the mass was cancer (rather than a cyst) The use of 100,000 units of A a day recovered 30% of lost lung function in a Federal study (patients had emphysema) see lef.org for a copy of the paper. lef.org better update their files before they hurt someone. One study employing beta carotene(20 mg/day) was cut short when it was realized that: ATBC researchers
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, You are streching to find extreme examples from very diferent cultures. I never consider animal parts to be a herb. Don't herbs have to be part of the botanical family? It is true that some parts of a few plants are poisiness. The leaves of rhubard for an example. The red stems of rhubard, however, are very nutritious. Herbs are basically plant foods and they are very healthy. Herbs have been used for thousands of years. Many people over those years have many testamonies of good results with using herbs. Is this not good science? no it is not. Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:26:56 -0500 Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Again, follow the money. Where is the funding going to come from to test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves. Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they are forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't going to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell. I totally agree, Joe. But that still doesn't answer the question about the true efficacy of numerous agents. For instance, there has been a rash of poaching black bears in the Ozarks. The carcases are found sans gal bladders. Why, because many, many years of tradition in some cultures tells them that consuming the bear gal bladder makes you a more manly man. That same argument is used for efficacy of tiger's penises and numerous herbs. How do you tell what is real and what is not? it is a very simple question with no simple answers. Joe bob allen wrote: snip The problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is lacking. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Kirk McLoren wrote: I was told the problem with synthetics is isomers. The natural chemical is the correct molecule. Synthetic has a 50-50 racemic mix half good and half bogus biologically. in some instances yes, in others no. Regardless, it is not an insurmountable one. Either start with a chiral substrate in a synthesis, thus insuring only the proper stereoisomer, or perform what is called an optical resolution to separate the isomers at the end. The herb is pure. The synthetic is 50% an unnatural molecule. only if you chose, which is done when the chirality of the molecule matters and sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Kirk */Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: bob allen wrote: snip most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single substance within a plant which seemed to have the desired effect. Then they set out in earnest to synthesize the chemical. ( follow the money eh?) There are two problems here. First in the synthesis process many kinds of unhealthy substances may be involved in the chemical synthesis which can remain in trace amounts despite efforts to eliminate them. Second and perhaps more important is what is left out. It is a bold and arrogant assumption that the theraputic effect of a herb is due soley to an isolated compound. Plants contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically when the whole plant is consumed. Yes this is less scientific in the strict sense but I am not married to science because I find that it cuts me off from a whole realm of truth which lies just outside of the bounds of wehat science can explain. Science does not have all the answersyet. as far as I am aware there is no such thing as unnatural salt. Well yeah salt is an inorganic compound and as such it just is what it is. Or is it? Where was it precipitated and in the presence of what else which will come out in the precipitate? As you know, chemicals are never pure. It is these traces I am curious about. ( And I haven't done my homework here so I'm open for blasting about that...granted) What else is in table salt vs sea salt and how much? These are the questions that are of interest to me in this discussion, of course all salt is natural, so is feldspar, and so are gamma rays for that matter and water is a deadly asphyxiant one could say, also natural. Refined sugar is pure right? But what is it bleached with and what does that do to it, and what of the stuff which is removed? White flour sure looks nice and works great for pie crusts but how much of the nutrition of the grain remains in it after refining? And again what does the bleaching do? White rice vs brown rice, nutrition, ditto. This is the line of thinking I am applying to the question of sea salt vs refined salt, not whether NaCl is natural or not. Perhaps there are cases where it is naive to just trust what nature has provided for us and it is more harmful than the carefully controlled laboratory product and maybe there are traces of toxic heavy metals in sea salt that can accumulate and do you in. I don't know because I haven't checked but I guess it's time that I did! I still feel safe though with the generality which Darryl recently posted about his cynicism and the rule of thumb which is follow the money and what that means in terms of our food supply and what people will do or what they are willing to overlook in the name of profit. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43290/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=41244/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Terry Dyck wrote: Hi Bob, Joe is right; herbs are better than synthetic drugs for the simple reason that you just mentioned, drugs have side effects. might herbs not have side effects because they don't to anything anyway? (actually they do have side effects when properly tested) The problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is lacking. So proof of efficacy is what any one wants to say, even if they have an agenda to get rich on someone elses gullibility. The ones I have heard of most recently which have undergone rigorous testing have produced mixed results at best. re: saw palemetto for prostate problems http://www.herbalgram.org/default.asp?c=sawpalmBPH In the new trial reported in NEJM, conducted at the University of California at San Francisco, 225 men (112 in saw palmetto group; 113 placebo) 49 years of age or older with moderate to severe BPH were randomly assigned to groups who took a leading saw palmetto extract (160mg twice daily, the normal dose shown effective in over 21 clinical trials) or a matching placebo capsule. The patients made 8 study visits over a one-year period to assess changes in the AUASI scores (this is the primary outcome of the trial), maximal urine flow, post-void residual urine volume, prostate size, and other health-related outcomes. On average, participants in both the saw palmetto and the placebo groups improved over the one-year duration of the trial, but there were no significant differences in the rates of improvement overall between the two groups as measured by the AUASI. re: st john's wort for depression http://nccam.nih.gov/news/2002/stjohnswort/q-and-a.htm The trial found no statistically significant difference between St. John's wort and placebo on improvement in HAM-D scores or percentage of complete responses. The percentage of participants in remission from major depression at the end of the 8-week initial treatment phase was approximately 24 percent for St. John's wort and about 32 percent for placebo. Overall, the percentage of participants who improved either partially or completely was about 38 percent for St. John's wort and 43 percent for placebo. These findings suggest that St. John's wort is not effective for the treatment of major depression in adults with a moderate level of symptoms. This conclusion is supported by another recently reported placebo-controlled study (Shelton, et al., 2001). Herbs are actually foods. It is only confusing because our modern day society has put herbs into capsules. Originally herbs were only eaten just as we eat vegetables. Herbs do work but people have to be patient and they have to know about the whole part of healing; such as eliminating junk foods, exercise, stress elimination, promoting a strong immune system, etc. the problem now is you are introducing way to many variables. was it the herb or the exercise or the stress elimination or what? Should'nt you be able to show an effect in isolation? When one does a placebo controlled study, you should have equal amts of the aforementioned variables in both groups so they cancel out. I believe it was Hippocrites who wrote: Let food be your medicine hippocrites didn't know about aspirin ;- Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:18:35 -0500 Howdy Joe, Mike, et al Joe Street wrote: Hi Mike; There is a part of me ( the part I like to think is wise) that tends to trust what comes out of mother nature's laboratory much more than the industrial product. This is why I use butter not margarine. better the devil you know than the devil you don't know? (butter, saturated fat and cholesterol vs margarine, trans fats) This is why I prefer herbs over medicines most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. and organic foods over factory. agreed, with the exception of factory Organic ala recent spinach issue This voice is always whispering that the more raw something is, the closer it is to it's natural state, the better. This voice tells that the converse, the more refined anything is, the more goodness has been stripped away and the more unhealthy in terms of preservatives and traces of processing steps are left behind in the product. processing is relative. Cassava
Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
Osama bin laden is an engineer Kirk McLoren wrote: There was no falling until the first failure. A little logic would go a long way here. And it fell straight down. If it hadnt the rubble pile would have extended in the direction of fall. Not rocket science here. Just basic evidence. BTW Robert - you an engineer? I am - and my daughter is a PE. Stay comfortable in your belief set. I'm sure you will. Kirk */robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: To fall straight down means the failures supposedly caused by heat all happened at the same time. In the real world they lean to the failed side and then forces cause more failures. It is a very tricky business making them fall straight down. But the dust prevented observers from actually witnessing the manner in which the lower floors fell. Additionally, ALL of the force that destroyed the towers came from the mass of upper floor falling directly on top of lower floors--kind of like crushing a soda can underfoot. It's not difficult to understand how this happened, unless one is UNWILLING to accept the simplest, most straightforward explanation. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com Check it out. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42974/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] was..Bring loaded firearms aboard
this became an issue in Arkansas when a concealed carry law passed. The question was, are there places that concealed handguns can't be carried even if you have a permit. Thankfully bars are a place a concealed weapon can't go. AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Yes, I can imagine 2 passengers having a few drinks, then getting in to an arguement about something. One of them politely asks a flight attendant for a few rounds to take out the other one...what fun. I think I'll pass on those flights as well. Was this nut case, a conservative blogger by any chance? regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring loaded firearms aboard Sent: 18 Sep '06 12:43 guns and liquor, now there is a winning combination. I'll pass on that flight. Chip Mefford wrote: D. Mindock wrote: Garrison makes some good points. Peace, D. Mindock --interesting read snipped. Once upon a time, not so very long ago, I recall some blogger or loudmouth going on and on about his idea for an air line. This would be an international airline. The deal was, 1)You can bring your own sidearm, you just have to use our ammo** 2) You can drink on our airline. 3) you can smoke cigars,cigarettes,pipe in our smoking lounge. 4) Once over international air-space, you can smoke pot/hash on board our airline. (in our smoking lounge) 5)you can handcarry your baggage. **ammo would be standard stuff with a turned nylon slug, which is lethal at close range, but has very very poor penetration. Now, as to how you get legal pot/hash aboard in the first place, I have no idea. But I thought it was interesting. His point was, you could charge whatever you wanted for fares, and would probably solid-book every flight, and in fact, have huge waiting lists. I know I'd fly this airline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
howdy Johnathan ( you better sit down) Jonathan Hardin wrote: Actually Terry I think you ment that Kirk was right. Herbs are produced by plants which, for the most part have a comparitively similar biological system (we have 50% the same DNA as a Bananna). That is they produce only one of the two isomers (L instead of both D and L like you would normally get in a lab). The D isomer is 'usually' the one that causes problems. no disrespect but nonsense. D and L are terms which relate to the stereochemistry of something only by proxy. (It is a long story) The morning sickness pill back in the 70's I think it was. I do: thalidomide, and it is a nonissue because under physiological conditions, the good (or bad) form racemises to the bad (or good)- in this case. But this is just one case. Can't remember its name off the top of my head. The one that caused all the birth defects; the birth defects were caused by one isomer, the morning sickness was cured by the other. The only difference between the two? A hydrogen atom faced a different direction on one as compaired to the other.Isolate the isomer that helps with morning sickness and you don't get the birth defects. That said, it is very expensive to seperate isomers, so the drug companies, and the FDA by implication let them stay in their mixture unless the side effects (usually caused by one of the isomers) this is too general to have any real substantial meaning. I could type all day with expect ions to your generalizations. is too severe and the benefits of the pill too great. Then the drug companies will spend the time and money to isolate the right isomer and make a pill with a pure form of it. It comes down to money, and a public who isn't informed about this. If the public refused to buy any drug that wasn't in a pure (non-racemic) form I'm sure that you'd find the drug companies scrambling to make pure forms of the drugs. Again I am not trying to be mean spirited, but you know just enough to really confuse people It would suddenly be in the best interest of their pocket-books. That said, sometimes herbs can produce chemicals our bodys don't like, but, those are usually poisions, so we don't usually take them. Natural isn't necessarily safer it's just, for the most part, a more pure, or less harsh form of something. this doesn't mean much of a thing in a chemical or physiological sense. Take ephedra for example, low doses to some folks fine, low doses with comprised cardiovascular system deadly. Many of the drugs are based off of the mechanisms of how the plants work, but it's the racemic mixture of isomers that causes the side effects. Money makes the world go round... yes, good money is paid to people to really understand this stuff. sorry if I sound harsh. Jonathan Hardin On 9/19/06, *Terry Dyck* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Bob, Joe is right; herbs are better than synthetic drugs for the simple reason that you just mentioned, drugs have side effects. Herbs are actually foods. It is only confusing because our modern day society has put herbs into capsules. Originally herbs were only eaten just as we eat vegetables. Herbs do work but people have to be patient and they have to know about the whole part of healing; such as eliminating junk foods, exercise, stress elimination, promoting a strong immune system, etc. I believe it was Hippocrites who wrote: Let food be your medicine Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:18:35 -0500 Howdy Joe, Mike, et al Joe Street wrote: Hi Mike; There is a part of me ( the part I like to think is wise) that tends to trust what comes out of mother nature's laboratory much more than the industrial product. This is why I use butter not margarine. better the devil you know than the devil you don't know? (butter, saturated fat and cholesterol vs margarine, trans fats) This is why I prefer herbs over medicines most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Again, follow the money. Where is the funding going to come from to test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves. Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they are forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't going to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell. I totally agree, Joe. But that still doesn't answer the question about the true efficacy of numerous agents. For instance, there has been a rash of poaching black bears in the Ozarks. The carcases are found sans gal bladders. Why, because many, many years of tradition in some cultures tells them that consuming the bear gal bladder makes you a more manly man. That same argument is used for efficacy of tiger's penises and numerous herbs. How do you tell what is real and what is not? it is a very simple question with no simple answers. Joe bob allen wrote: snip The problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is lacking. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
D. Mindock wrote: There have been a considerable number of studies on herbs. It is a myth that herbs haven't been studied. BTW, an herb is any plant that has special properties. A carrot might be called an herb since it helps the eyes. your example is proving one of my points. you cant necessarily trust traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic at higher concentrations. There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as halibut. http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/carrots.asp Claim: Eating carrots results in improved vision. Status: False. your example is proving one of my points. you cant necessarily trust traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic at higher concentrations. There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as halibut. If thing were so simple as natural is safe and good and synthetic is bad... Strawberries slow down cancer. I.E., they have medicinal properties. Big Pharma will study an herb to pick out those chemicals that have the properties they're looking for. E.g., Cat's Claw (graviola is another) is believed to have anti-cancer properties. So a drug company will look for what they believe is the active ingredient and find the chemical analogue. I am not well versed in chemical patent law but I think you are oversimplifying here. Generally the reason companies look for analogs is to find better efficacy, lowered side effects, simpler structures which lend themselves to production, or any combination thereof. Merely extracting the active ingredient will not allow the patenting of it. But the man-made analogue of it will. So they test the analogue and then submit it to the FDA for its test. 200 million dollars is the figure I have heard that this test costs. So, the ability to get a patent on a synthetic analogue is what gives Big Pharma the leverage to make billions on just one new drug. The markup on a drug is sometimes as high as 50,000%, making drug manufacturing obscenely lucrative. The ones that bomb, like Vioxx, are just the cost of doing business. With the huge markups and huge profits comes political power, unfortunately for us all. no argument there Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Hey Bob; Again, follow the money. Where is the funding going to come from to test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves. Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they are forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't going to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell. Joe bob allen wrote: snip The problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is lacking. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
I don't disagree with a thing you say here Tom, and as for Howdy, I guess it does sound humorous outside my midwestern origins but there, it is quite natural. so eat and diverse diet, rich in fruits and vegetables... Thomas Kelly wrote: Bob, Good day to you. I would like to throw in my penny's worth into a discussion between yourself and Joe S. Joe: Plants contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically when the whole plant is consumed. Bob: the problem is how do you prove it. Difficult While I agree that many chemicals isolated from living organism are biologically active even in pure form, I would like to suggest that others are active within the context of their natural environment. That is, they are most active when interacting with other chemicals in the food they are derived from. Antioxidants appear to protect biologically important molecules from free radicals. Pat Kendall, Ph.D., R.D. Food Science and Nutritional Specialist at Colorado State University Cooperative Extension wrote Good Food Sources of Antioxidants in March of 2000 www.colostate.edu/pubs/columnnn/nn000322.html Dr. Kendall suggests foods rather than supplements because fruits and vegetables contain other complimentary nutrients and phytochemicals. -- The American Heart Association (in Scientific Advisory 8/2/04) www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3023709 suggests: Get antioxidants from food, not supplements Individual antioxidant isolated and purified have little benefit, even negative effects. This was also true of isolated, purified antioxidants that were mixed in a cocktail. - www.clevelandclinic.org/heartcenter/pub/guide/prevention/nutrition/antioxidants Studies have shown that eating a diet rich in antioxidant-containing foods, such as fruits, vegetables and whole grains, has been linked to a reduced risk of cardiovascular disease. These antioxidants seem to have beneficial effects, but the effects seem to be greatest when taken as part of the complex mix we call food. My point is that Good food is good for you. I think there should be at least some doubt that the goodness in it can be isolated, purified, taken individually or compounded into the same goodness that came off the vine or the hoof. Regarding Joe's point that Plants contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically when the whole plant is consumed. Though I can't poove it, I certainly wouldn't dismiss it. I believe there is evidence that supports it. I think we might consider an enzyme catalyzed biochemical pathway that involved a coenzyme such as niacin and a cofactor such as magnesium. The consumption of an organism having the same biochemical pathway would provide both substances, and hence have more significant effect on the consumer than consuming either in purified form. The products of digestion would even provide the specific amino acids needed to build the particular enzymes in the pathway. Regards, Tom P.S. Bob, I have to confess to stealing something from you. I always get a kick out of your Howdy Tom when you reply. I used it recently in an e-mail to my oldest son. He came right back with it. good case of the grins. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Joe Street wrote: bob allen wrote: snip most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single substance within a plant which seemed to have the desired effect. Then they set out in earnest to synthesize the chemical. ( follow the money eh?) not to be chary, but you have a problem with someone earning a living? There are two problems here. First in the synthesis process many kinds of unhealthy substances may be involved in the chemical synthesis which can remain in trace amounts despite efforts to eliminate them. I only know of one example in the last couple of decades where an impurity in a synthetic compound was known to have adverse health effects. Way back when, it became popular to take L-tryptophan as a sleep aid (I don't think there ever was any proof of efficacy
Re: [Biofuel] was..Bring loaded firearms aboard
I stand corrected Chip Mefford wrote: bob allen wrote: this became an issue in Arkansas when a concealed carry law passed. The question was, are there places that concealed handguns can't be carried even if you have a permit. Thankfully bars are a place a concealed weapon can't go. Point. That is not logically true. Bars would be places where concealed weapons MAY not go. Or more to the point, places where LEGAL concealed weapons MAY not go. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Kirk McLoren wrote: Actually the carrot contains beta carotene yes of course, and it is what makes red palm oil red. which is used in the body to make vitamin A. It is water soluble no kirk, not that it matters here but it is one of the fat soluble vitamins. It is stored in the liver of many animals. and Lorraine Day MD took enough to turn herself orange. She believed it helped her overcome breast cancer. actually there is no evidence that it was cancer. from quackwatch.com Lorraine Day, M.D., would like you to believe that she has discovered the answer to cancer and that her experience as a patient qualifies her to give advice about cancer. She warns against trusting the medical profession and claims that all drugs can cause cancer. Her videotapes state (falsely) that standard cancer treatment has never cured anyone and that nobody should undergo chemotherapy and radiation for any cancer. She speaks eloquently and from the heart, but her tapes are filled with factual errors and far-fetched claims. I believe that her advice is untrustworthy and dangerous to the extent that it steers people away from effective treatment. The centerpiece of Day's story is that she cured herself of a grapefruit-sized lump that she says was a recurrence of her breast cancer. But she has refused to disclose any medical records that would confirm that the mass was cancer (rather than a cyst) The use of 100,000 units of A a day recovered 30% of lost lung function in a Federal study (patients had emphysema) see lef.org for a copy of the paper. lef.org better update their files before they hurt someone. One study employing beta carotene(20 mg/day) was cut short when it was realized that: ATBC researchers reported that men who took beta-carotene had an 18 percent increased incidence of lung cancers and an 8 percent increased overall mortality. Vitamin E had no effect on lung cancer incidence or overall mortality. The men taking both supplements had outcomes similar to those taking beta-carotene alone (New England Journal of Medicine 1994;330:1029) Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: D. Mindock wrote: There have been a considerable number of studies on herbs. It is a myth that herbs haven't been studied. BTW, an herb is any plant that has special properties. A carrot might be called an herb since it helps the eyes. your example is proving one of my points. you cant necessarily trust traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic at higher concentrations. There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as halibut. http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/carrots.asp Claim: Eating carrots results in improved vision. Status: False. your example is proving one of my points. you cant necessarily trust traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic at higher concentrations. There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as halibut. If thing were so simple as natural is safe and good and synthetic is bad... Strawberries slow down cancer. I.E., they have medicinal properties. Big Pharma will study an herb to pick out those chemicals that have the properties they're looking for. E.g., Cat's Claw (graviola is another) is believed to have anti-cancer properties. So a drug company will look for what they believe is the active ingredient and find the chemical analogue. I am not well versed in chemical patent law but I think you are oversimplifying here. Generally the reason companies look for analogs is to find better efficacy, lowered side effects, simpler structures which lend themselves to production, or any combination thereof. Merely extracting the active ingredient will not allow the patenting of it. But the man-made analogue of it will. So they test the analogue and then submit it to the FDA for its test. 200 million dollars is the figure I have heard that this test costs. So, the ability to get a patent on a synthetic analogue is what gives Big Pharma the leverage to make billions on just one new drug. The markup on a drug is sometimes as high as 50,000%, making drug manufacturing obscenely lucrative. The ones that bomb, like Vioxx, are just the cost of doing business. With the huge markups and huge
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
you're right tom, I got my vitamins A and D commingled. Thomas Kelly wrote: Bob, I think you are right re: Vit A being toxic. It is definitely considered to be teratogenic. I thought it was Vitamin D in polar bear and walrus liver that was toxic. One explanation of the evolution of light skin color was based on the idea that sunlight converts precursors (ergosterol?) into Vit D (calciferol). Primitive diets were low in Vitamin D. The explanation suggests that as humans migrated, increasing latitudes more skin covering + less direct sunlight. Those with lighter skin greater absorption of appropriate wavelengths, and Vit D production. The exceptions to the northern environment and light skin story are those whose diet included the livers of polar bears and walruses ... rich in Vit D. one of the cutest ( and I don't use the term often) photos I've seen was it a photo album called a day in the life of Russia. The photo was of a group of preschool age children, clad only in underpants and goggles, standing around a UV lamp. This was in Siberia above the arctic circle in winter. I recently read of another issue. Folic acid is apparently degraded in too much sunlight. So the earliest humans from northeast Africa had dark complexions to limit folic acid destruction. I heard that you should not eat polar bear or walrus liver more than once a month. Personally, I'm trying to give it up entirely. Tom P.S. I meant no disrespect re: Howdy. I think it is more personal than Hello. I wish it flowed as naturally from my mouth as it does from my keyboard. Howdy seems to be short for How do you do? What does Hello mean? - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt D. Mindock wrote: There have been a considerable number of studies on herbs. It is a myth that herbs haven't been studied. BTW, an herb is any plant that has special properties. A carrot might be called an herb since it helps the eyes. your example is proving one of my points. you cant necessarily trust traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic at higher concentrations. There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as halibut. http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/carrots.asp Claim: Eating carrots results in improved vision. Status: False. your example is proving one of my points. you cant necessarily trust traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic at higher concentrations. There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as halibut. If thing were so simple as natural is safe and good and synthetic is bad... Strawberries slow down cancer. I.E., they have medicinal properties. Big Pharma will study an herb to pick out those chemicals that have the properties they're looking for. E.g., Cat's Claw (graviola is another) is believed to have anti-cancer properties. So a drug company will look for what they believe is the active ingredient and find the chemical analogue. I am not well versed in chemical patent law but I think you are oversimplifying here. Generally the reason companies look for analogs is to find better efficacy, lowered side effects, simpler structures which lend themselves to production, or any combination thereof. Merely extracting the active ingredient will not allow the patenting of it. But the man-made analogue of it will. So they test the analogue and then submit it to the FDA for its test. 200 million dollars is the figure I have heard that this test costs. So, the ability to get a patent on a synthetic analogue is what gives Big Pharma the leverage to make billions on just one new drug. The markup on a drug is sometimes as high as 50,000%, making drug manufacturing obscenely lucrative. The ones that bomb, like Vioxx, are just the cost of doing business. With the huge markups and huge profits comes political power, unfortunately for us all. no argument there Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Hey Bob; Again, follow the money. Where is the funding going to come from to test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves. Drug companies are loathe to spend
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Joe Street wrote: bob allen wrote: snip most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single substance within a plant which seemed to have the desired effect. Then they set out in earnest to synthesize the chemical. ( follow the money eh?) not to be chary, but you have a problem with someone earning a living? There are two problems here. First in the synthesis process many kinds of unhealthy substances may be involved in the chemical synthesis which can remain in trace amounts despite efforts to eliminate them. I only know of one example in the last couple of decades where an impurity in a synthetic compound was known to have adverse health effects. Way back when, it became popular to take L-tryptophan as a sleep aid (I don't think there ever was any proof of efficacy, but that doesn't seem to matter to a lot of folks). Anyway a Japanese company produced the tryptophan via a bacterial synthesis. The workup stage introduced an impurity that killed a couple of people. An admittedly bad, but rare occurance. Conversely, I know of several recent examples of substances sold as natural herbs, balms, etc which are unintentionally or intentionally full of impurities ranging from heavy metals, to pesticides, to steroids. http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=221548 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1480482 http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/15/109.cfm Second and perhaps more important is what is left out. It is a bold and arrogant assumption that the theraputic effect of a herb is due soley to an isolated compound. gee I wouldn't think it so arrogant Plants contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically when the whole plant is consumed. the problem is how do you prove it. Yes this is less scientific in the strict sense but I am not married to science because I find that it cuts me off from a whole realm of truth which lies just outside of the bounds of wehat science can explain. If you can't explain it with scrupulous examination of reproduceable results, then how do you know it is real? There seems to be a real misuse of what the word science means. It is nothing more nor less than a process of gathering data which can be reproduced. Science does not have all the answersyet. of course not, but the only other insight I can see is mysticism. as far as I am aware there is no such thing as unnatural salt. Well yeah salt is an inorganic compound and as such it just is what it is. Or is it? Where was it precipitated and in the presence of what else which will come out in the precipitate? As you know, chemicals are never pure. that is as silly a statement as my unnatural salt (which was my intent). Everything is pure, nothing is pure, depending on degree. I will go with precise analytical procedures any day over expectations of purity which have no basis. Surely you apply scientific principles when producing biodiesel don't you? It is these traces I am curious about. ( And I haven't done my homework here so I'm open for blasting about that...granted) What else is in table salt vs sea salt and how much? generally very, very little. a few trace minerals like magnesium and manganese, which are picked in a decent diet. My point is you don't need to spend a bundle on exotic salt. the little difference they provide is lost in the backgound of a normal diet. These are the questions that are of interest to me in this discussion, of course all salt is natural, so is feldspar, and so are gamma rays for that matter and water is a deadly asphyxiant one could say, also natural. Refined sugar is pure right? But what is it bleached with and what does that do to it, and what of the stuff which is removed? White flour sure looks nice and works great for pie crusts but how much of the nutrition lets be careful of terminology here. Nutrition is somewhat vague. White flour has lots of calories, but none of the vitamins and minerals and fiber contained in the bran fraction. That is why white flour is fortified. that is what wonder bread used to advertise: builds strong bodies 8(12) different ways.- an admittedly ironic way of saying that the fda made them put vitamins and mineral back in the flour. of the grain remains in it after refining? And again what does the bleaching do? White rice vs brown rice, nutrition, ditto. This is the line of thinking I am applying
