Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation
François you'll need to be a bit patient. As long as the main mapnik map and the major editors don't support the new tag there won't be a quick switch to the new tag. The old sub_station tag (10 uses) will continue to exist for a very long time and renders should keep supporting it. At least the count for power=station seems to be decreasing now (somebody retagging?). Ole On 03/11/2013 00:14, François Lacombe wrote: Hi, As mentionned in the issue #230 on the main openstreetmap rendering github, the number of occurences of power=sub_station increased during the last 15 days. https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/230#issuecomment-27632715 The new value power=substation was introduced not long ago and is the official value of power template for power substations on the wiki. It would be great to stop using the old value (sub_station) for new features, and edit the old ones (case by case, carefully) to suggest people to support the new tagging scheme. If you're knowledgable about power networks, you could add the substation=* tag to indicate the usefulness of the substation. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Substation#Substation_values Many thanks in advance. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation
I think that problem is present because in Josm the value is not change? Is it possible to change this? -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Power-sub-station-vs-substation-tp5783760p5783773.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
Dear all, Based on your input during the pre-proposal phase, I have come up with a feature proposal for various gambling features. The proposal includes the following tags: - shop=bookmaker: A shop that takes bets on sporting and other events at agreed upon odds. - shop=lottery: A shop of which the main purpose is the sale of lottery tickets. - amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game. - amenity=amusement_arcade: A place with arcade games and/or gambling machines. - amenity=gambling: A place for gambling, not being a bookmaker, lottery shop, casino, or amusement arcade. - leisure=video_arcade: DISCOURAGED, use amenity=amusement_arcade instead. - shop=betting: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. - shop=gambling: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling for the full proposal. I am looking forward to your comments, either on this mailing list or on the discussion page. In addition, I would also welcome extensions to the lists of examples on the wiki-page. With kind regards, Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
Dear all, In many countries, there is a type of shop that sells most of the following: - Newspapers - Magazines - Books (but not as wide selection as a book shop) - Stationary - Post cards - Bus tickets - Concert tickets - Lottery tickets - Post stamps - Tobacco - Mobile phone credit - Drinks and candy The name of this type of shop varies across countries. In the Netherlands and Italy, they are most often refered to as tobacco shop (although tobacco is only a small fraction of what is being sold). In Switzerland and Luxembourg, they are refered to as kiosk (although they are not necessarily small buildings on the sidewalk). In Germany, they seem to be referred to as lottery shops (although they offer much more than just lottery tickets). However, the concept seems to be quite similar in most of these countries. Some examples (not necessarily under an open license): Italian tabacchi: http://www.investmilano.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tabacchi222.jpg Dutch Primera cigarette shop: http://wijkaanzee.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Primera-wijkaanzee.jpg Swiss K-Kiosk: http://www.gaeupark.ch/upload/prj/images/kiosk1.jpg English WHSmith: http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/~/media/Images/content/at-the-airport/shop-restaurant-images/WHSmith.ashx German Lotto lottery shop: http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? In any case, we have two options. We can either tag these shops as they are refered to in the country itself (for example shop=tobacco in the Netherlands and Italy, shop=lottery in Germany, shop=kiosk in Switzerland and Luxembourg), or try to come up with a tag that allows tagging the same type of shop in the same way across the globe. I would prefer the second option. Would shop=newsagent be understood for these kind of shops in most coutries? I'm not sure whether Italian tabacchi also sell news papers, for example. Thanks in advance for any input. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
In the UK the are called newsagents, and fit your description pretty well. W H Smith is slightly different, whilst it has news stands and small shops in railway stations and in airports, it also has larger high street shops that are principally book shops, although they will sell newspapers and magazines. Phil (trigpoint) On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 13:00 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Dear all, In many countries, there is a type of shop that sells most of the following: - Newspapers - Magazines - Books (but not as wide selection as a book shop) - Stationary - Post cards - Bus tickets - Concert tickets - Lottery tickets - Post stamps - Tobacco - Mobile phone credit - Drinks and candy The name of this type of shop varies across countries. In the Netherlands and Italy, they are most often refered to as tobacco shop (although tobacco is only a small fraction of what is being sold). In Switzerland and Luxembourg, they are refered to as kiosk (although they are not necessarily small buildings on the sidewalk). In Germany, they seem to be referred to as lottery shops (although they offer much more than just lottery tickets). However, the concept seems to be quite similar in most of these countries. Some examples (not necessarily under an open license): Italian tabacchi: http://www.investmilano.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tabacchi222.jpg Dutch Primera cigarette shop: http://wijkaanzee.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Primera-wijkaanzee.jpg Swiss K-Kiosk: http://www.gaeupark.ch/upload/prj/images/kiosk1.jpg English WHSmith: http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/~/media/Images/content/at-the-airport/shop-restaurant-images/WHSmith.ashx German Lotto lottery shop: http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? In any case, we have two options. We can either tag these shops as they are refered to in the country itself (for example shop=tobacco in the Netherlands and Italy, shop=lottery in Germany, shop=kiosk in Switzerland and Luxembourg), or try to come up with a tag that allows tagging the same type of shop in the same way across the globe. I would prefer the second option. Would shop=newsagent be understood for these kind of shops in most coutries? I'm not sure whether Italian tabacchi also sell news papers, for example. Thanks in advance for any input. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. Nounours! A crèche is an institution who takes care of a child during the day, normally on a daily basis, including meals, playing activities and outdoor activities. A crèche is more a place to live than a place to learn, so it's not a pre-school, even if some educational activities might be present. A crèche is not an after-school for older children already visiting a school or a Kindergarten, even tough there a crèches where children are allowed to stay when they grow up for one or two years after they entered kindergarten/primary school and use it as an after-school, even if it's not. The service is known as child care center in the United Kingdom and Australia and day care center in North America . In german speaking countries it is known asKindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort (mainly Austria). It seems to be relevant enough to do a proper tagging, currently, there are about 2000 crèches in Switzerland, and their number is quickly growing. I do not know about Germany and Austria, but I suppose the numbers being there important as well. Another reason: Knowing where crèches are located is an important information. Some use-cases: I'm looking for an apartment. The choice will depend on available crèches in the surroundings. So having a quick overview where they are and getting contact information based on geolocalisation is important. Grandmothers and godfathers who occasionally pick up the kid need driving instructions ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation
Hi Ole, I actually sent this mail because the main mapnik map won't be updated until the number of occurences of sub_station become low in tag-info. I think that Bredy is right saying JOSM isn't updated too but they are looking for icons to update presets. Thus, people should move to substation and that's not bad to remind them to do so. Cheers. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com 2013/11/3 Ole Nielsen on-...@xs4all.nl François you'll need to be a bit patient. As long as the main mapnik map and the major editors don't support the new tag there won't be a quick switch to the new tag. The old sub_station tag (10 uses) will continue to exist for a very long time and renders should keep supporting it. At least the count for power=station seems to be decreasing now (somebody retagging?). Ole On 03/11/2013 00:14, François Lacombe wrote: Hi, As mentionned in the issue #230 on the main openstreetmap rendering github, the number of occurences of power=sub_station increased during the last 15 days. https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap- carto/issues/230#issuecomment-27632715 The new value power=substation was introduced not long ago and is the official value of power template for power substations on the wiki. It would be great to stop using the old value (sub_station) for new features, and edit the old ones (case by case, carefully) to suggest people to support the new tagging scheme. If you're knowledgable about power networks, you could add the substation=* tag to indicate the usefulness of the substation. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Substation#Substation_values Many thanks in advance. *François Lacombe* francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu http://www.infos-reseaux.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dear all, I propose the tag man_made=lamp for lamps, together with a number of additional tags for lamp type, light source, power and so on. Central motivations for this proposal are: - - Lamps are clearly visible landmarks for orientation, mainly at night. - - Mapping lamps gives a detailed image of the lighting situation. The present tagging does not suffice for this: - - highway=street_lamp does not apply to any other lamp type. - - Tagging lamps as highway features is at least questionable. - - There is no tag for other types of lamps. - - There are no tags for lamp properties, such as light source and power. You can find the full proposal for a unified lamp tagging here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lamp This tagging has evolved from a thorough discussion in the German OSM forum: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=23041 In the forum it has also been suggested to start voting soon, since mapping lamps is done most easily during the dark time of the year, which is just starting (in the northern hemisphere, where most mappers are located). Voting will therefore be opened soon, unless there are further suggestions / improvement / discussions required. Best, Manuel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSdlUMAAoJEPvf9RrsekSyRBAIAKKJPEXvoMP4MFFkCqgUvGe/ 3yfvO4whc3Eiy3NI1xGhjj0sHH/mQ/qmJvTQhn23Sw1eRdCFY52dzrtN9uNmlSGG KGoDw/mKsN1BhpWB8lIfNBFjoYJCHLgTtsdo7XmZAkXzELmzV0DgtajR16CovCln 3pjrHe8Uc9IQ35/K3tYa9G7v1r8FOMQ5EzUEWrLR+8HD9jIi+Hqi+cYIul0iYL5F ac4Hy3fZ/hftVhLroqlvYZG30efxF98L8WjuL+rokESC2AwD7Uovod178u8ghG0H Wb6fUoebOXDNivs9HbY8LCJaf1RZUr1FB3EjWjw8l1W7gl8Hn0do9hvpTjT5HZo= =H7nz -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Dear Gilbert, Thank you for proposing this, I agree that there is a need for this tag. I also agree that creches are clearly distinct from kindergarten, so they should have different tags. Are you aware of the earlier efforts to propose this? See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 . Does the strong divide between creches and places for older children also exist in other countries? To prevent confusion, maybe it would be an idea to propose a tag for places for older children alongside with the creche tag? For the native speakers: is creche the most commonly used term? Is there a difference between creche and nursery? -- Matthijs On 3 November 2013 13:31, Gilbert Hangartner kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. Nounours! A crèche is an institution who takes care of a child during the day, normally on a daily basis, including meals, playing activities and outdoor activities. A crèche is more a place to live than a place to learn, so it's not a pre-school, even if some educational activities might be present. A crèche is not an after-school for older children already visiting a school or a Kindergarten, even tough there a crèches where children are allowed to stay when they grow up for one or two years after they entered kindergarten/primary school and use it as an after-school, even if it's not. The service is known as child care center in the United Kingdom and Australia and day care center in North America . In german speaking countries it is known asKindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort (mainly Austria). It seems to be relevant enough to do a proper tagging, currently, there are about 2000 crèches in Switzerland, and their number is quickly growing. I do not know about Germany and Austria, but I suppose the numbers being there important as well. Another reason: Knowing where crèches are located is an important information. Some use-cases: I'm looking for an apartment. The choice will depend on available crèches in the surroundings. So having a quick overview where they are and getting contact information based on geolocalisation is important. Grandmothers and godfathers who occasionally pick up the kid need driving instructions ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 13:56 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: For the native speakers: is creche the most commonly used term? Is there a difference between creche and nursery? My understanding, as a native UK English speaker, is that a nursery is somewhere that a child attends regularly, a pre-school type place. A creche is somewhere that looks after young children for occasional short-term periods, such as in a shopping centre or a university. Where a child can be left whilst the parent does something else, such as shopping or attends a lecture. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Dear Matthijs, Thanks very much for pointing me to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 I wasn't aware of this!!! For the rest, I tried to make it clear in the proposal how to deal with other kinds of childcare ... but I will first try to merge with childcare2.0 and then see further .. thanks! Gilbert Am 03.11.2013 um 14:56 schrieb Matthijs Melissen: Dear Gilbert, Thank you for proposing this, I agree that there is a need for this tag. I also agree that creches are clearly distinct from kindergarten, so they should have different tags. Are you aware of the earlier efforts to propose this? See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 . Does the strong divide between creches and places for older children also exist in other countries? To prevent confusion, maybe it would be an idea to propose a tag for places for older children alongside with the creche tag? For the native speakers: is creche the most commonly used term? Is there a difference between creche and nursery? -- Matthijs On 3 November 2013 13:31, Gilbert Hangartner kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. Nounours! A crèche is an institution who takes care of a child during the day, normally on a daily basis, including meals, playing activities and outdoor activities. A crèche is more a place to live than a place to learn, so it's not a pre-school, even if some educational activities might be present. A crèche is not an after-school for older children already visiting a school or a Kindergarten, even tough there a crèches where children are allowed to stay when they grow up for one or two years after they entered kindergarten/primary school and use it as an after-school, even if it's not. The service is known as child care center in the United Kingdom and Australia and day care center in North America . In german speaking countries it is known asKindertagesstätte or Kita or Hort (mainly Austria). It seems to be relevant enough to do a proper tagging, currently, there are about 2000 crèches in Switzerland, and their number is quickly growing. I do not know about Germany and Austria, but I suppose the numbers being there important as well. Another reason: Knowing where crèches are located is an important information. Some use-cases: I'm looking for an apartment. The choice will depend on available crèches in the surroundings. So having a quick overview where they are and getting contact information based on geolocalisation is important. Grandmothers and godfathers who occasionally pick up the kid need driving instructions ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road system is well maintained. In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller national roads. Here's what we ended up with: http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png Please, do not use living_street the way you have it in your picture. Living_street is a special case and has to be signed individually. It is one major mistake in OSM-Historie and should be changed to highway=*, living_street=yes like motorroad and bicycle_road. As already said, if one classification does not exist in a country just do not use it. On the other hand classification is not always that easy and if politics get involved it gets even more tricky. In my area traffic was split on two roads running almost parallel but one has a restriction on weight. I ended up with two primaries as one has much traffic but the otherone is the route for hgv. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation
On 3 November 2013 13:48, François Lacombe francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu wrote: I actually sent this mail because the main mapnik map won't be updated until the number of occurences of sub_station become low in tag-info. This is exactly one of the problems I was addressing in the discussion 'How to overcome lack of consensus'. Mapnik won't be updated until the usage has changed, and the usage won't changed until Mapnik has been updated. Therefore, it is effectively impossible to change tags. I see that as a major problem. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
Am 03.11.2013 14:29, schrieb Philip Barnes: In the UK the are called newsagents, and fit your description pretty well. W H Smith is slightly different, whilst it has news stands and small shops in railway stations and in airports, it also has larger high street shops that are principally book shops, although they will sell newspapers and magazines. Actually, in Germany, I also know all kinds of shops. We have kiosks, newsagents and stationaries which might sell all kinds of things. That many of these shops often offer Lotto is nothing which groups them but should be tagged with an own tag. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
On 3 November 2013 14:30, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Actually, in Germany, I also know all kinds of shops. We have kiosks, newsagents and stationaries which might sell all kinds of things. That many of these shops often offer Lotto is nothing which groups them but should be tagged with an own tag. What about a shop like this? http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg They call themselves 'Lottoshop'. Would you call such a shop lottoshop in everyday usage, or would you call it a newsagent or kiosk? What is the difference between kiosks and newsagents in Germany? Could you give a chain name for each of them, perhaps? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
I have seen these in Germany, but the only lottery only places I have come accross in the UK are kiosks in shopping centres. I would tag that as shop=lottery. Lottery is the correct english word, I always read lotto as a brand name for particular lotteries. Phil (trigpoint) On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 14:36 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 3 November 2013 14:30, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Actually, in Germany, I also know all kinds of shops. We have kiosks, newsagents and stationaries which might sell all kinds of things. That many of these shops often offer Lotto is nothing which groups them but should be tagged with an own tag. What about a shop like this? http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg They call themselves 'Lottoshop'. Would you call such a shop lottoshop in everyday usage, or would you call it a newsagent or kiosk? What is the difference between kiosks and newsagents in Germany? Could you give a chain name for each of them, perhaps? -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag "Crèches" or "Childcare-centres" or "Daycare-centrers" or "Kindertagesstätte". Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. amenity=creche According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is "crèche", not "creche". Why make spelling mistakes? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Power] sub_station vs substation
Am 03.11.2013 15:11, schrieb Matthijs Melissen: On 3 November 2013 13:48, François Lacombe francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu wrote: I actually sent this mail because the main mapnik map won't be updated until the number of occurences of sub_station become low in tag-info. This is exactly one of the problems I was addressing in the discussion 'How to overcome lack of consensus'. Mapnik won't be updated until the usage has changed, and the usage won't changed until Mapnik has been updated. Therefore, it is effectively impossible to change tags. I see that as a major problem. What is the problem about supporting both tags for now ? Why is carto not supporting accepted tags ? The power proposal changes are a real success as they show that discussion and voting can lead to something. fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? There is surely some overlap between countries, but there are also country specific specialties. A shop which sells this kind of stuff in Germany could also be a petrol station. In Italy a shop=tobacco might also sell salt (traditionally salt was a state monopoly), but won't sell books generally. Bus tickets will mostly be sold, concert tickets I'm not sure, but they will also do some kind of banking operations (you can pay e.g. your rent or your electricity bill there). As for postal stamps I wouldn't count on them, they might have some of the most used fractions, but very often they'd say they've run out. They also won't sell magazines or newspapers by default, but there are some (combined shops) that do. Often they are inside a bar and will therefor sell coffee, liquors, sandwiches, etc. Besides from these tobacco - bars a tobacco shop won't offer drinks. Lotto is a different issue, in Germany the common couple is a newspaper agent offering wasting your money on lottery. Given that already inside a certain country there are huge differences between these kind of shops. I'd think it is almost impossible to do it on an international level. E.g. some shop=tobacco are specialized in tobacco and offer a huge selection of cigars, pipes and pipe tobacco, cigarette rolling tobacco etc., while others not even offer rolling tobacco but only a small selection of cigarettes and maybe one or two common cigar types. I won't deduct from the shop type what exactly is the offering, either we had to make specific subtypes (e.g. tobacco bar, tobacco + newspapers, even tobacco and pastry/bread) or express this with additional attributes in the form of sell:tobacco=yes, sell:icecream=yes, lotto=yes (or sells for grammatical reasons, but the sell:* form seems more common currently). In conclusion to your original question I'd say that this is not one kind of shop, but there are different kind of shops in different countries, offering overlapping goods and services. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl What about a shop like this? http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg IMHO this is a kind of newsstand or travel supplies shop, offering usually candies, drinks, newspapers, magazines, tobacco and certain kinds of books, and also lotto, but lotto isn't their main purpose (maybe I'm too egocentric here, because I hardly ever play lotto). In OSM I'd tag this either newsagent or tobacco (adding a sell:tobacco in the case of newsagent). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
2013/11/3 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com Looking at the sweets below the desk and maybe some hidden beverages I would call it a kiosk. yes, the typology of offered goods is that of a kind of kiosk in Germany, but the structure clearly isn't a kiosk (maybe that's not a problem, simply don't use building=kiosk and you're done? On the other hand, isn't kiosk refering to a building type and not to a shop?). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
Am 03.11.2013 16:34, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2013/11/3 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com Looking at the sweets below the desk and maybe some hidden beverages I would call it a kiosk. yes, the typology of offered goods is that of a kind of kiosk in Germany, but the structure clearly isn't a kiosk (maybe that's not a problem, simply don't use building=kiosk and you're done? On the other hand, isn't kiosk refering to a building type and not to a shop?). Thought we tag building=* and building:use=* but never heard that shop=kiosk is connected to building. Though you often find them in small separate buildings Did you mean that a kisok does not offer any indoor place for customers but is only a counter with (covered) shelfs outdoor ? fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
Hey Matthijs and the all others I wonder if we should not use leisure in general and try to avoid amenity. At least for new tags and tags with low numbers leisure=* should be used. cheers fly Am 03.11.2013 13:10, schrieb Matthijs Melissen: Dear all, Based on your input during the pre-proposal phase, I have come up with a feature proposal for various gambling features. The proposal includes the following tags: - shop=bookmaker: A shop that takes bets on sporting and other events at agreed upon odds. - shop=lottery: A shop of which the main purpose is the sale of lottery tickets. - amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game. - amenity=amusement_arcade: A place with arcade games and/or gambling machines. - amenity=gambling: A place for gambling, not being a bookmaker, lottery shop, casino, or amusement arcade. - leisure=video_arcade: DISCOURAGED, use amenity=amusement_arcade instead. - shop=betting: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. - shop=gambling: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling for the full proposal. I am looking forward to your comments, either on this mailing list or on the discussion page. In addition, I would also welcome extensions to the lists of examples on the wiki-page. With kind regards, Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
Hi André, I first wrote crèche, obviously. Then I sent a mail to the mailing list, and the è was not rendered correctly. So I concluded that having a non-ascii character in a tag might be more of a nuisance … I'm french speaking and would obviously prefer a è. Can you point me to some information how this kind of questions is treated in OSM? nounours Am 03.11.2013 um 15:44 schrieb André Pirard: On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. amenity=creche According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is crèche, not creche. Why make spelling mistakes? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
2013/11/3 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? There is surely some overlap between countries, but there are also country specific specialties. A shop which sells this kind of stuff in Germany could also be a petrol station. In Italy a shop=tobacco might also sell salt (traditionally salt was a state monopoly), but won't sell books generally. Bus tickets will mostly be sold, concert tickets I'm not sure, but they will also do some kind of banking operations (you can pay e.g. your rent or your electricity bill there). As for postal stamps I wouldn't count on them, they might have some of the most used fractions, but very often they'd say they've run out. They also won't sell magazines or newspapers by default, but there are some (combined shops) that do. Often they are inside a bar and will therefor sell coffee, liquors, sandwiches, etc. Besides from these tobacco - bars a tobacco shop won't offer drinks. Lotto is a different issue, in Germany the common couple is a newspaper agent offering wasting your money on lottery. Given that already inside a certain country there are huge differences between these kind of shops. I'd think it is almost impossible to do it on an international level. E.g. some shop=tobacco are specialized in tobacco and offer a huge selection of cigars, pipes and pipe tobacco, cigarette rolling tobacco etc., while others not even offer rolling tobacco but only a small selection of cigarettes and maybe one or two common cigar types. I won't deduct from the shop type what exactly is the offering, either we had to make specific subtypes (e.g. tobacco bar, tobacco + newspapers, even tobacco and pastry/bread) or express this with additional attributes in the form of sell:tobacco=yes, sell:icecream=yes, lotto=yes (or sells for grammatical reasons, but the sell:* form seems more common currently). In conclusion to your original question I'd say that this is not one kind of shop, but there are different kind of shops in different countries, offering overlapping goods and services. I'm adding some things here.. We could use vending=* as for vending machines. I'm mapping as kiosk when there's more items from the list, shop=tobacco when it's a proper tabacchino or tabaccaio (outside has a black and white sign with the reference code from the Italian Monopoli), shop=newsagent when sells exclusively newspapers and magazines or it's a standalone kiosk with mostly newspapers for tickets I'd like something like office=tickets (so we'll catch also the place vending tickets outside a museum). In Italy through lotto (only the most recent machines) you could pay bills, taxes and other services. cheers, Martin Bye, Stefano ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
Hello fly, Thank you for your concern. I'm glad we agree that classification is a hard topic sometimes. First, the graph is intended for mapping within Brazil and not overseas. I don't wanna delve too deeply in the details of our discussion (it would probably be long, boring and maybe only interesting for Brazilians themselves), but I can assure you that when we established those definitions we were trying to make our mapping style as compatible with the rest of the world as possible. And by we I mean I was not alone - many active users participated, the graph had many candidate forms before we agreed this was probably the best we could do for now. Best in terms of balancing clarity (objectivity), complexity (how hard is the decision-making process) and quality of the end result (the map). The graph hasn't changed in the last 6 months and we only have two Brazilian-borne complaints in queue since then, one of which is minor, the other a little harder (but already being addressed) and none related to living streets. So, you're right, living streets do not exist in Brazil according to the strictest definitions of OSM (a legally designated road where pedestrians have right of way over cars). However, I disagree that they should not be used here at all. Brazil has no primaries, secondaries or tertiaries, it has arteries, collectors and local streets, national, state and municipal roads, and so on. These concepts are mapped to OSM, with local adaptations, right? Many definitions are left open in OSM; for instance, we had heated debates on how to distinguish track, path and footway. When we reached out for the international community, we discovered that each country has its own definition, often more or less incompatible with that of other countries. Then, there are a few people who think it is useful to map the concept of living streets to some sort of warning system for drivers. Those who would benefit most from this would be tourists, certainly. There are places with poor infrastructure that simply force pedestrians to share space with vehicles. There are places where this sharing is simply part of the local culture. For all practical matters, these places function pretty much like living streets (heavy pedestrian traffic sharing space with vehicles, which are then forced to slow down considerably), just without the legal requirement. A distracted driver that does not know these facts has a higher chance of causing an accident. And if the driver knew about these streets beforehand, he/she would usually prefer to avoid them, thus affecting routing decisions. All that is valuable local knowledge. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:10 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road system is well maintained. In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller national roads. Here's what we ended up with: http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png Please, do not use living_street the way you have it in your picture. Living_street is a special case and has to be signed individually. It is one major mistake in OSM-Historie and should be changed to highway=*, living_street=yes like motorroad and bicycle_road. As already said, if one classification does not exist in a country just do not use it. On the other hand classification is not always that easy and if politics get involved it gets even more tricky. In my area traffic was split on two roads running almost parallel but one has a restriction on weight. I ended up with two primaries as one has much traffic but the otherone is the route for hgv. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
Hi Fernando Still think you should not change the meaning of a key but use an new/own key or even only a subkey for the other existing values considering living_street. Actually, I am in favour of deprecating living_street as it is already used for too many different cases and wrong in concept (at least for the original intention). Comming back to highway=* we do not attribute who is maintaining the road nor if it is a called and signed as national, state and municipal roads but we use it to tell about the importance of the road within the traffic network and about the number of motor_vehicles using the road. cheers fly Am 03.11.2013 18:35, schrieb Fernando Trebien: Hello fly, Thank you for your concern. I'm glad we agree that classification is a hard topic sometimes. First, the graph is intended for mapping within Brazil and not overseas. I don't wanna delve too deeply in the details of our discussion (it would probably be long, boring and maybe only interesting for Brazilians themselves), but I can assure you that when we established those definitions we were trying to make our mapping style as compatible with the rest of the world as possible. And by we I mean I was not alone - many active users participated, the graph had many candidate forms before we agreed this was probably the best we could do for now. Best in terms of balancing clarity (objectivity), complexity (how hard is the decision-making process) and quality of the end result (the map). The graph hasn't changed in the last 6 months and we only have two Brazilian-borne complaints in queue since then, one of which is minor, the other a little harder (but already being addressed) and none related to living streets. So, you're right, living streets do not exist in Brazil according to the strictest definitions of OSM (a legally designated road where pedestrians have right of way over cars). However, I disagree that they should not be used here at all. Brazil has no primaries, secondaries or tertiaries, it has arteries, collectors and local streets, national, state and municipal roads, and so on. These concepts are mapped to OSM, with local adaptations, right? Many definitions are left open in OSM; for instance, we had heated debates on how to distinguish track, path and footway. When we reached out for the international community, we discovered that each country has its own definition, often more or less incompatible with that of other countries. Then, there are a few people who think it is useful to map the concept of living streets to some sort of warning system for drivers. Those who would benefit most from this would be tourists, certainly. There are places with poor infrastructure that simply force pedestrians to share space with vehicles. There are places where this sharing is simply part of the local culture. For all practical matters, these places function pretty much like living streets (heavy pedestrian traffic sharing space with vehicles, which are then forced to slow down considerably), just without the legal requirement. A distracted driver that does not know these facts has a higher chance of causing an accident. And if the driver knew about these streets beforehand, he/she would usually prefer to avoid them, thus affecting routing decisions. All that is valuable local knowledge. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:10 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road system is well maintained. In Brazil, however, we had tons of discussions on how to do it and ended up deciding (though reluctantly) to classify based on several objective structural characteristics that seemed closely related to importance. That is mostly because many regional/municipal roads are definitely more important (thus, preferable) than other, smaller national roads. Here's what we ended up with: http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png Please, do not use living_street the way you have it in your picture. Living_street is a special case and has to be signed individually. It is one major mistake in OSM-Historie and should be changed to highway=*, living_street=yes like motorroad and bicycle_road. As already said, if one classification does not exist in a country just do not use it. On the other hand classification is not always that easy and if politics get involved it gets even more tricky. In my area traffic was split on two roads running almost parallel but one has a restriction on weight. I ended up with two primaries as one has much traffic but the otherone is the route for hgv. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
In Brazil, kids up to 5 years old can stay at either a private facility (creche) or a state-run facility (escola infantil). These are currently being mapped as kindergartens here. Preschool is a preparatory 1-year course offered by regular schools, so these are not mapped as kindergartens here. Linguistic note: kindergarten literally translates to jardim de infância which is the former name of preschools in Brazil. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Gilbert Hangartner kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi André, I first wrote crèche, obviously. Then I sent a mail to the mailing list, and the è was not rendered correctly. So I concluded that having a non-ascii character in a tag might be more of a nuisance … I'm french speaking and would obviously prefer a è. Can you point me to some information how this kind of questions is treated in OSM? nounours Am 03.11.2013 um 15:44 schrieb André Pirard: On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. amenity=creche According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is crèche, not creche. Why make spelling mistakes? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
Wow, a very well documented RFC! Thanks in advance for your time and effort on this. Will read it and comment where appropriate. http://bigfatfrog67.me On 03/11/2013 12:10, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Dear all, Based on your input during the pre-proposal phase, I have come up with a feature proposal for various gambling features. The proposal includes the following tags: - shop=bookmaker: A shop that takes bets on sporting and other events at agreed upon odds. - shop=lottery: A shop of which the main purpose is the sale of lottery tickets. - amenity=casino: A gambling place with at least one table game. - amenity=amusement_arcade: A place with arcade games and/or gambling machines. - amenity=gambling: A place for gambling, not being a bookmaker, lottery shop, casino, or amusement arcade. - leisure=video_arcade: DISCOURAGED, use amenity=amusement_arcade instead. - shop=betting: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. - shop=gambling: DISCOURAGED, use shop=bookmaker, shop=lottery, amenity=casino, amenity=amusement_arcade, or amenity=gambling instead. Please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling for the full proposal. I am looking forward to your comments, either on this mailing list or on the discussion page. In addition, I would also welcome extensions to the lists of examples on the wiki-page. With kind regards, Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 03.11.2013 14:52, Manuel Hohmann wrote: - There are no tags for lamp properties, such as light source and power. lamp_type has 20,000 uses and lamp_mount has 17,000; this proposal tries to replace them both? You can find the full proposal for a unified lamp tagging here: Frankly, this sounds like typical astronaut tagging. A group of people got together and thought: Now what could we *possibly* want to tag about a lamp? and everything has been written down. Next thing, a helpful soul will create a JOSM template that has *every* *single* *one* of the 20 tags in that proposal, and gives people the impression that they should really know the aperture angle or else the tagging isn't good. I recommend to shorten the proposal to two or three tags and let people map a couple thousand lamps first, then see where the journey goes. Therein lies the quality of a proposal - to capture the essential bits, not to make endless lists of detailed stuff that could possibly be mapped. Creating a full blown feature catalog before the first lamp aperture has ever been mapped hasn't been our style in the past. Bye Frederik - -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSdpufAAoJEOx/uhGAJu9HiagIAJcxjnSiwlY2TkeWIYIBh6Aw vsFh/UjNbTsJY1nGGerOjYyMzNi33H0BIBDZBZOuFlkNWW4cG5ToNLh/Kr4AjEhW xog3yPP+GRqnypLlZtFh5Vy37z68Txee8fLmZWcnPLE+9WQO0x2dSiC8P4ZMlqGL 0LGv5zsi055rqcnj0f1RNzCELRTDraUpkE4Xh7XBXbnATe58ikWsfTH0/mnaKUKY rUNIVWChSy9TTj+2T5BndIooYaQ4rwfNDL6RfKQn49r/6sCXwuvqst+5WIzNaVoD gImchsfjla0L7DGARIclvKPWdb9dx7dKIPu9m+q8KWYzx94hDWCjCrkzr3PuY1w= =B5KS -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 03.11.2013 14:52, Manuel Hohmann wrote: In the forum it has also been suggested to start voting soon, since mapping lamps is done most easily during the dark time of the year, There is no link. Anyone can map lamps whether or not the voting has been started. Even if the proposal is rejected, people can still map lamps. Bye Frederik - -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSdpvaAAoJEOx/uhGAJu9Hy6sH/izgNKaf02r8GS/bUWmYv8pV aCR8G9WZ5EpUG6OZ7X7IedAHNgA8Udh6AAIsDXDF+7t7pYhBwWa1I8C0TGKsx+Dv lVPY2p9jSOqHDC52sUEdFjhO6Do5GuOS/Sz/wE7IKcqEoraFAyM1ILdzQFqWoBPP fdsnlv1QnCXTGR8zE/PcDpLOZKhMR+Fgr/NW/Yzxi0WZuG8R89G5hRm3hj8y5xmI FXu6E9LqZSwI05tXd2Fn44iRkPyEaxhGgYbeBVn0caa05RRIskMvZN0s+EzhaWOg IVPYZGBlVklLOyjcTP4YO8yXTDcvPViakVBVAcIU8hnopvPdv+rwsoRRIq51E9A= =+5Rg -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
If we use a new key, no apps would support it, until the Brazilian community grows enough to start building its own apps. Indeed, as discussions progressed, we began associating importance primarily with traffic intensity and less with city connectivity. But again, we would have to measure traffic objectively to classify like that, so we picked observable structural characteristics that correlate with traffic intensity. Importance was also associated with safety, where lacking infrastructure (such as hard shoulders) implicitly represents the (lack of) importance assigned by the state. This is reinforced by the fact that the state itself publishes a map where roads are classified by several structural characteristics (most of which are part of the decision flow now). The only published alternative classifies by administration level - which, as I said, we found almost completely useless. How many vehicles do you assume for each type of road? And how do you measure it? Note: I've felt the need for quaternaries and then thought that ideally we should simply change the idea of road hierarchy into a numeric tag, like admin_level. But given the length of the current tradition, it seemed absurd to propose this. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 4:12 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Fernando Still think you should not change the meaning of a key but use an new/own key or even only a subkey for the other existing values considering living_street. Actually, I am in favour of deprecating living_street as it is already used for too many different cases and wrong in concept (at least for the original intention). Comming back to highway=* we do not attribute who is maintaining the road nor if it is a called and signed as national, state and municipal roads but we use it to tell about the importance of the road within the traffic network and about the number of motor_vehicles using the road. cheers fly Am 03.11.2013 18:35, schrieb Fernando Trebien: Hello fly, Thank you for your concern. I'm glad we agree that classification is a hard topic sometimes. First, the graph is intended for mapping within Brazil and not overseas. I don't wanna delve too deeply in the details of our discussion (it would probably be long, boring and maybe only interesting for Brazilians themselves), but I can assure you that when we established those definitions we were trying to make our mapping style as compatible with the rest of the world as possible. And by we I mean I was not alone - many active users participated, the graph had many candidate forms before we agreed this was probably the best we could do for now. Best in terms of balancing clarity (objectivity), complexity (how hard is the decision-making process) and quality of the end result (the map). The graph hasn't changed in the last 6 months and we only have two Brazilian-borne complaints in queue since then, one of which is minor, the other a little harder (but already being addressed) and none related to living streets. So, you're right, living streets do not exist in Brazil according to the strictest definitions of OSM (a legally designated road where pedestrians have right of way over cars). However, I disagree that they should not be used here at all. Brazil has no primaries, secondaries or tertiaries, it has arteries, collectors and local streets, national, state and municipal roads, and so on. These concepts are mapped to OSM, with local adaptations, right? Many definitions are left open in OSM; for instance, we had heated debates on how to distinguish track, path and footway. When we reached out for the international community, we discovered that each country has its own definition, often more or less incompatible with that of other countries. Then, there are a few people who think it is useful to map the concept of living streets to some sort of warning system for drivers. Those who would benefit most from this would be tourists, certainly. There are places with poor infrastructure that simply force pedestrians to share space with vehicles. There are places where this sharing is simply part of the local culture. For all practical matters, these places function pretty much like living streets (heavy pedestrian traffic sharing space with vehicles, which are then forced to slow down considerably), just without the legal requirement. A distracted driver that does not know these facts has a higher chance of causing an accident. And if the driver knew about these streets beforehand, he/she would usually prefer to avoid them, thus affecting routing decisions. All that is valuable local knowledge. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:10 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 02.11.2013 20:43, schrieb Fernando Trebien: I know that in Germany and in Argentina roads are being classified based primarily on administration level (national, regional, city, etc.). Classifying like this probably works well when the entire road
Re: [Tagging] Primary or Trunk?
+1 (similar to our discussion here in Brazil) On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 5:07 PM, Jonathan bigfatfro...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry if I've not seen the old posts on this, the wiki pages are contradictory which is why I asked the question. In the UK we are defining Trunk or Primary based on some arbitrary definition not on anything that is of use to any user or renderer. What we should be mapping is reality, so that people can use that data to build on. Whether a road is signed in Green, Pink or Purple tells a user nothing, it may have a legal definition but that is all. The tag we give it should tell the user something about the road's capabilities, importance, size and potential timings/traffic flow. A Trunk road that is a dual carriageway with a maxspeed of 70 mph is very different to a Trunk road that winds around fields and has a maxspeed of 50 mph or less! Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me On 03/11/2013 00:14, Tom Hughes wrote: On 02/11/13 18:47, Jonathan wrote: I'm not clear with the distinction of a Trunk road in the UK. The wiki suggests a trunk road is high performance roads that don't meet the requirement for highway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway=motorway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway which to me would suggest an A road that is a dual carriageway. Further on in the wiki it says that any A road in the UK signed with Green signs is a Trunk road. I know of many Green A roads that aren't much more than country lanes, they are definitely not high performance and I don't feel they should be Trunk roads, I feel they should be Primary roads. It's really very simple, and has been discussed here many, many times before and I'm sure there are multiple pages on the wiki covering it. First, forget the question of which roads are formally designated as trunk roads by the Department for Transport (which is not very many these days). Second, understand that there is something called the Primary Route Network defined by DfT which covers those A roads connecting specific major towns. Those are the A roads with the green signs, and are what we tag as highway=trunk. Other A roads are highway=primary. In many cases those will be major roads, often ex trunk roads, but in more rural areas like the highlands they might look more like a B road does in other parts of the country. That is irrelevant though. In the UK it is really only residential/unclassified/tertiary where you need to make a judgement call. Everything else has a well defined mapping: Motorways = highway=motorway Green Signed A Roads = highway=trunk White Signed A Roads = highway=primary B Roads = highway=secondary Hopefully that will explain everything ;-) Tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
On 3 November 2013 15:31, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl What about a shop like this? http://www.hit.de/regional/partner_image/071/071_Lotto_Shop.jpg IMHO this is a kind of newsstand or travel supplies shop, offering usually candies, drinks, newspapers, magazines, tobacco and certain kinds of books, and also lotto, but lotto isn't their main purpose (maybe I'm too egocentric here, because I hardly ever play lotto). In other words, we cannot simply follow how the shop calls itself, because this shop does call itself a 'lotto shop'. I agree that the lotto is not the main purpose of this shop. In OSM I'd tag this either newsagent or tobacco (adding a sell:tobacco in the case of newsagent). So the situation seems to be similar to the Netherlands, where either of these tags would also make sense. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: Newsagent / Kiosk / Tobacco / TIcket shop
On 3 November 2013 15:26, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/11/3 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl Do these kind of shops also exist in other countries, and how are they referred to? Which of the products that I listed do they sell? There is surely some overlap between countries, but there are also country specific specialties. A shop which sells this kind of stuff in Germany could also be a petrol station. In Italy a shop=tobacco might also sell salt (traditionally salt was a state monopoly), but won't sell books generally. Bus tickets will mostly be sold, concert tickets I'm not sure, but they will also do some kind of banking operations (you can pay e.g. your rent or your electricity bill there). As for postal stamps I wouldn't count on them, they might have some of the most used fractions, but very often they'd say they've run out. They also won't sell magazines or newspapers by default, but there are some (combined shops) that do. Often they are inside a bar and will therefor sell coffee, liquors, sandwiches, etc. Besides from these tobacco - bars a tobacco shop won't offer drinks. Alright, so mapping Italian tobacco shops as shop=newsagent would not make sense. On the other hand, in the Netherlands there are shops that offer everything you might find in a German shop=tobacco (newspapers, magazines, post stamps, lottery bills), except for the tobacco products. So mapping these shops as shop=newsagent wouldn't make sense either. So indeed it seems we will need two tags for very similar shops. Also, we would need to find a way how to tag shops that sell both tobacco and newspapers. Also, I'm still not sure how shop=kiosk fits in this picture. -- Matthijs -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp
On 03/11/13 13:52, Manuel Hohmann wrote: You can find the full proposal for a unified lamp tagging here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lamp This tagging has evolved from a thorough discussion in the German OSM forum: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=23041 I had a quick scan through those, but it's not immediately clear to me what problem you're trying to solve. What nature of illuminated things are OSM mappers failing to capture in the absence of a lamp proposal? Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk? PITA?
I've just googled PITA and it would appear that it stands for Pain In The Ass. The below quoted email I received to my personal email is not a snippet but the full and entire transcript I received this evening. I can't stress strongly enough how insulted, and a little scared, I feel for this personal attack. Is Chris Hill (user: chilly) trying to intimidate or bully me outside of the list? Is he threatened by my questioning the Status Quo? Was he upset that I didn't shut up after he proffered the first answer to my question? I thought these lists were aliases for discussion? It would appear that if you ask a question that was raised 3 years before then that instantly make you a PITA? I realise there are mappers like Chris who have many years/edits of seniority over us newer mappers but that gives them no right to abuse anybody, if anything it confers a responsibility to help newer mappers. That help shouldn't come in the form of I say it is so accept it, if they can't justify their opinion with a reasoned argument then don't give the opinion! Abusing the questioner is unacceptable. Either within the list or without. I was on the fringes of the organising committee for SOTM2013 and the subject of an anti-bullying policy was raised, suggesting it should be documented and published. I was against it because I felt it was just common human courtesy to treat everyone with respect and kindness. Maybe I was wrong, maybe it should be documented so that people like Chris Hill (chilly) can be officially sanctioned, given warnings over their conduct, and in the extreme, have their account blocked. I'd like to state that I shall withdraw all involvement in the the Trunk/Primary debate and will think twice about any future questions to these lists. If anybody wants to see OSM flourish and bring in new participants from other walks of life and grow to be a well respected global organisation then think again, some may need to leave before others feel they may want to join. Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me On 03/11/2013 19:55, Chris Hill wrote: Why are you being a PITA about this? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk? PITA?
Hi, On 03.11.2013 21:51, Jonathan wrote: I've just googled PITA Please keep replies to talk-uk where this thread originated. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gambling
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 11:58 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: I wonder if we should not use leisure in general and try to avoid amenity. At least for new tags and tags with low numbers leisure=* should be used. +1 To spur the discussion on which key to use here are some numbers from Taginfo for the value *=casino: amenity=casino/Casino 1123 lesiure=casino 69 gambling=casino 60 shop=casino/Casino 25 tourism=casino/Casino = 11 amusement=casino 1 attraction=casino 1 entertainment=casino 1 amenity=casino is the most used tag by far, but I think that is because amenity=* seems to be the default key for any undocumented object and not because amenity=casino is the best tag to use. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New feature: amenity=creche
On 2013-11-03 17:07, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi André, I first wrote crèche, obviously. Then I sent a mail to the mailing list, and the è was not rendered correctly. So I concluded that having a non-ascii character in a tag might be more of a nuisance … I'm french speaking and would obviously prefer a è. Can you point me to some information how this kind of questions is treated in OSM? nounours Bonsoir https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1xj_LQg-oI Nounours https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtVUOru8YM, The bible speaks of that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#General_information: Any payload is in XML form, using the MIME type text/xml and UTF-8 character encoding, ... [hence the database...] but most of all this page, very explicitly http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#Characters. There was also a page whose discussion was very positive about UTF-8, can't find it any more. The choice of a key or value is not a matter of character set but of understanding, English being the mostly used common language between people talking different languages. Contrary to what certain people claim, no more that a Chinese character is typographically an assembly of little signs, è is not an accent on an e. It used to be like that before 1985, when people used e backspace accent with Wordstar on CP/M computers, but that's now ancient history. It should be noticed that the new 8859-1 code that made è a single character is also (almost) the ANSI code (American National Standards Institute). All that has been swept away by a single worldwide code ISO 10646, shortly said, aka UNICODE, aka UTF-8 that the world waited for decades. There is now no reason to use anything else. No more than tagging for the renderer, UTF-8 must not be avoided because of a few bugs here and there. Just as the renderer must be fixed, they say, so must the bugs. Cordialement, Papou. Am 03.11.2013 um 15:44 schrieb André Pirard: On 2013-11-03 14:31, Gilbert Hangartner wrote : Hi there, I wrote a proposal to correctly tag Crèches or Childcare-centres or Daycare-centrers or Kindertagesstätte. Thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. amenity=creche According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crèche and .../creche, as well as all non-foreign dictionaries, the spelling is crèche, not creche. Why make spelling mistakes? Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal - RFC - man_made=lamp
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 lamp_type has 20,000 uses and lamp_mount has 17,000; this proposal tries to replace them both? Yes. Frankly, this sounds like typical astronaut tagging. A group of people got together and thought: Now what could we *possibly* want to tag about a lamp? and everything has been written down. Basically that's the plan. Next thing, a helpful soul will create a JOSM template that has *every* *single* *one* of the 20 tags in that proposal, and gives people the impression that they should really know the aperture angle or else the tagging isn't good. The first part is true, the second is wrong. It is written in the proposal that these additional tags are optional and should be added only if known. This will also be emphasized in the JOSM template. Nobody is forced to enter any of this information. This is just the same as with parking lots, highways and so on - also there the JOSM templates contain lots of tags such as surface, width, maxheight, maxspeed and a plethora of access tags. Yet it works. I recommend to shorten the proposal to two or three tags and let people map a couple thousand lamps first, then see where the journey goes. As you wrote above, we already have thousands of lamps with 2-3 tags. Therein lies the quality of a proposal - to capture the essential bits, not to make endless lists of detailed stuff that could possibly be mapped. Of course, essential and non-essential things should be distinguished, I don't doubt that. I'll try to make this distinction more apparent in the proposal, which goes beyond the essential (and yet done) there is a lamp tagging. Creating a full blown feature catalog before the first lamp aperture has ever been mapped hasn't been our style in the past. Indeed it has been the past style that everybody starts mapping something and invents new tags, and when there is a number of conflicting taggings, it needs to be cleaned up. This is exactly the reason why I suggest tags for these things, before everybody comes up with their own tags and we get the same mess again. There is no link. Anyone can map lamps whether or not the voting has been started. Even if the proposal is rejected, people can still map lamps. If there is no agreed way to map something, people will either invent their own tagging or not map something at all. Of course I could just start mapping lamps, powers, colours and apertures right away, but if nobody else agrees with this, it does not make much sense. I had a quick scan through those, but it's not immediately clear to me what problem you're trying to solve. What nature of illuminated things are OSM mappers failing to capture in the absence of a lamp proposal? Have a look at the examples / pictures in the proposal which are not street lamps. Manuel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSdt8QAAoJEPvf9RrsekSyq+oH/jSQNN+3QEAa4vqF02uXOLR6 JJN2vWimStoWBgEj3qb6A0gUtUMlK9rxIhsItavSjdQmHtenrAx00eVS74imgTqx IRuwWwmirWAAkebbX2LVumzJrCOZ/jLqoO5ilbE5+QepD+Sk1e3d0KY5J5H7hCSE x87cBxi3znrScis8GVRDtZNedxG/y1fQxoabOFoPwP8Bn7oAD1ayyBd2D18R53k/ kx3vovF+Slo84kmJ2+IOzAkPQ95txlB3yjWUxKR37APoSzdiW07SHfqO4Le+BEvN E5/+955EXkv01IS1aKqTyFnQzEaX4FzMjIPlZBbXGbvM12RZgxnQbotB9DRt060= =beZ6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging