Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 21.12.2015 um 22:31 schrieb John Willis :
> 
> This is an actual tropical beach and trees and everything in a giant bubble!


actually it is a building recycling (or re-use). The structure was built as a 
hangar for a project called "cargo lifter" which was planned as a zeppelin 
based transport system for oversized cargo but failed economically before it 
even started to operate - just the hangar was built ;-)
Quite famous story for Germans, as it was so gigantic and IIRR a significant 
amount of public money was involved...


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[John Willis]

> On Dec 21, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> south of Berlin there is also an example for a tropical water park: https://=
> en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Islands_Resort

Wow!

This is an actual tropical beach and trees and everything in a giant bubble! 

Our little "Caribbean  beach" could fit in the corner, as it is just a small 
wave pool and some slides (not a real beach with palm trees), but it serves 
only a few towns together with a population of 200K, not the millions of 
Berlin. 

But both are indoors, heated, and the "draw" of the park is the indoor water 
play and relaxing in a warm indoor climate with other amenities (i.e. a 
restaurant), as opposed to all the outdoor water parks in California that are 
only open in the summer, as they are sprawling outdoor facilities meant to 
"beat the heat" of summer. 

The one I used to visit is closed now. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Rivers_(water_park) 

I wonder if that difference - indoor, heated, and meant for use in winter is 
enough to create a new tag. The one in Germany is quite a spectacle. 

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[johnw]

> On Dec 21, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Matthijs Melissen  
> wrote:
> 
> For example a indoor swimming hall with slides and wave
> generators, heated to a subtropical temperature, 


for generic water parks (place for water “play” rather than water “exercise / 
sports”, usually dominated with water based attractions), water park is best. 
no one is showing up to do laps in a wave pool, nor are they suited to surfing 
training. 

for places where it gets cold in the winter and/or landlocked (like my current 
hometown), they have a water park I have never seen in San Diego (which never 
has snow and has lots of beaches)

an indoor “beach” - this is the opposite of “indoor ski park” in really hot 
places. 

they use waste heat from trash incinerators (so it is adjacent to the garbage 
center) and heat water and have an indoor “beach” for people to visit. 

I am fine tagging it as a water park , but maybe a water park that is 
completely enclosed, heated, and open year round should have it’s own tag or 
sub-tag as “indoor beach” , but I have done no research on this. But it is just 
a wave pool, slides, and lazy river indoors, so maybe this is too specific of a 
tag. 


http://www.kiea.jp/CaribbeanBeach.html 


it is currently tagged a bit wrong (by me) 

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.39879/139.23788 


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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Dec 21, 2015, at 5:20 AM, Steve Doerr  wrote:
> 
> Aquatics Centre

Sounds fine to me. 

Aquatics_centre. 

Javbw. 

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2015-12-20 at 11:41 +0900, johnw wrote:
> The place where the London Olympics swimming took place was the "400
> million dollar 'Aquatic Centre'” 
> 
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqjt4p_extreme-engineering-london-ol
> ympic-aquatic-centre-1_tech  (a search result)
> 
> 
The reporter, and I guess the website, are American so that doesn't
provide any evidence that the standard Englsh term is Aquatic Centre.
The fact that the term 400 million dollars is used confirms this
further.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[John Willis]

> On Dec 19, 2015, at 11:38 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> Thermal baths should be differentiated I believe.

+1 

Facilities (indoor or outdoor: covered=yes?) Usually break along 3 main points

Sports - athletic - training

Recreation - play 

Bathing - health 

We should be able to tag the usage of the pools (swimming pool / diving / 
bathing / splashing) and the overall purpose of the facility. Some places have 
a kiddie pool in the corner, or a jacuzzi to relax the muscles after a long 
swim at a public lap pool. - but they do not make the facility a water park nor 
a bath house. 

Leisure =swimming pool takes care of pool itself, and leisure=aquatic_centre 
takes care of the facility. 

Leisure=water_park takes care of the facility, but perhaps a subkey of 
leisure=swimming_pool can be used to define one of the categories 
(sports/recreation) or activites (lap, water polo, diving, splash, wave, tube, 
multi, residential (good value, since they are ambiguous and not easily put in 
the other category).

Bath facility is covered by public_bath, but the visible/mappable pools are not 
defined. I think swimming pool is very wrong for these man made, yet not for 
swimming features. 

Perhaps leisure=bathing_pool would be good - much better than natural=water. 

The subkey for amenity=public_bath (with combinations of hotel and spa for the 
building) attempts to define usage of the pools (foot soaker, etc) - but does 
not aid in directly mapping any outdoor bathing pools directly.  There should 
be a key value for water features used for bathing. 

Also - bathing wiki page says to add bath:open_air=yes to a public swimming 
pool - this is totally wrong. 

If I show up to a public swimming pool with my body soap and shampoo caddy, 
scrub towel, modesty cloth, and razor - then get naked and start scrubbing 
myself sitting on the steps - I highly doubt that is acceptable behavior at the 
public swimming pool. And if I started throwing a water polo ball across the 
larger onsen pools at an onsen resort, I would be similarly reviled and kicked 
out.

Bathing and swimming pools should be kept separate. 

Tagging schemes to separate the three categories should be expanded. 
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Chris Hill]

On 19/12/15 21:04, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 19 December 2015 at 17:42, ael  wrote:

An aquatic centre would normally contain aquaria with typically sea
creatures, often associated with research. A sort of sea-museum.
Definitely no swimming pool, although I suppose that a very eccentric
such centre might offer the experience of swimming with dolphins, but I
doubt it.

That doesn't seem to be exactly true, I can find aquatic(s) centre in
London, Manchester, Liverpool and Sunderland (amongst others), and all
of them offer swimming, not dolphins :)

-- Matthijs

The problem is that marketeers invent names for stuff all the time. An 
aquatic centre is not a swimming pool in non-marketing English.


--
Cheers, Chris (chillly)


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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[ael]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 11:23:27AM +0100, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> On 19 December 2015 at 03:11, John Willis  wrote:
> > I would call it leisure=aquatic_center if it is based around pool based 
> > exercise/ sports/ competition and leisure=water_park for recreation (like a 
> > theme park with slides and splashing and tube pools and whatnot.
> 
> I like this one, and I think going with two main tags, water_park and
> aquatic_centre (I think we should use UK spelling), is a viable
> option.

I have only skimmed this thread, but as a native British English
speaker, I have to say, as others have mentioned, that these will
be completely misunderstood in the UK.

A water park is typically a natural area with lakes mainly for wildlife,
although perhaps boating and maybe, just maybe but very rarely, swimming.
But not a swimming pool (well, perhaps there are exceptions).

An aquatic centre would normally contain aquaria with typically sea
creatures, often associated with research. A sort of sea-museum. 
Definitely no swimming pool, although I suppose that a very eccentric
such centre might offer the experience of swimming with dolphins, but I
doubt it.

As for better terms, swimming_pool is widely understood.
swimming_facility is a bit ugly but perhaps. I don't really have any
good suggestions, although something like sports_centre with
a sub-tag swimming=yes seems to capture most such places in a natural
way.

ael

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Dominic Coletti]

"An aquatic centre would normally contain aquaria with typically sea
creatures, often associated with research. A sort of sea-museum.
Definitely no swimming pool, although I suppose that a very eccentric
such centre might offer the experience of swimming with dolphins, but I
doubt it."

Also not true in the U.S. Where I live, most of the larger indoor swimming
pools, especially those that host competitions are known as aquatic
centers. None of them (even the eccentric ones) have live animals in the
water. :-)

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 4:06 PM Matthijs Melissen 
wrote:

> On 19 December 2015 at 17:42, ael  wrote:
> > An aquatic centre would normally contain aquaria with typically sea
> > creatures, often associated with research. A sort of sea-museum.
> > Definitely no swimming pool, although I suppose that a very eccentric
> > such centre might offer the experience of swimming with dolphins, but I
> > doubt it.
>
> That doesn't seem to be exactly true, I can find aquatic(s) centre in
> London, Manchester, Liverpool and Sunderland (amongst others), and all
> of them offer swimming, not dolphins :)
>
> -- Matthijs
>
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 19.12.2015 um 16:27 schrieb John Willis :
> 
> Facilities (indoor or outdoor: covered=yes?) 


covered=yes suggests the main reason is there is a pool with some roof but it 
really is about very different typology, some people even go to the open air 
facilities without even swimming (youngsters often pass the whole afternoon 
there to meet with their  friends). The open air facilities typically offer 
also some kind of other pitch (e.g. soccer, volleyball), have lawns where 
people go to sunbathe, while the (simple, non-water park) public  indoor pools 
are really mostly about swimming (the might be a sauna or a gym though). You do 
not go there just to hang around (typically).


> Some places have a kiddie pool in the corner, or a jacuzzi to relax the 
> muscles after a long swim at a public lap pool. - but they do not make the 
> facility a water park nor a bath house. 


+1, both are quite common in Germany 


> 
> Leisure =swimming pool takes care of pool itself, and leisure=aquatic_centre 
> takes care of the facility. 


yes, I also like this proposal of yours 


> 
> 
> Bath facility is covered by public_bath, but the visible/mappable pools are 
> not defined. I think swimming pool is very wrong for these man made, yet not 
> for swimming features. 


+1, eg. the hammam (turkish baths)
In (some?) developing countries, public bathing (and showering) facilities are 
quite common (not for leisure but for hygiene), and they used to be common in 
Europe as well (in the past)


> 
> Perhaps leisure=bathing_pool would be good - much better than natural=water.

+1


> 
> 
> The subkey for amenity=public_bath (with combinations of hotel and spa for 
> the building) attempts to define usage of the pools (foot soaker, etc) - but 
> does not aid in directly mapping any outdoor bathing pools directly.  There 
> should be a key value for water features used for bathing. 


+1


> 
> Also - bathing wiki page says to add bath:open_air=yes to a public swimming 
> pool - this is totally wrong. 
> 

+1, no connection to swimming there 


> If I show up to a public swimming pool with my body soap and shampoo caddy, 
> scrub towel, modesty cloth, and razor - then get naked and start scrubbing 
> myself sitting on the steps - I highly doubt that is acceptable behavior at 
> the public swimming pool.


yes, but you can do it in the shower section 


> 
cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[johnw]

> On Dec 20, 2015, at 1:42 AM, ael  wrote:
> 
> A water park is typically a natural area with lakes mainly for wildlife,
> although perhaps boating and maybe, just maybe but very rarely, swimming.
> But not a swimming pool (well, perhaps there are exceptions).

Google Searched “Aquatic Centre”:

The frist 10 pages (250 results?) were all places for swimming. no animals. 
Places were located all over the English speaking world. including descriptions 
of foreign places. I stopped looking. 

The place where the London Olympics swimming took place was the "400 million 
dollar 'Aquatic Centre'” 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqjt4p_extreme-engineering-london-olympic-aquatic-centre-1_tech
 

  (a search result)

Usually for a “mixed use” term, Google will put a variety of different results 
on the first page, but none were anything other than swimming pools for 
trianing/sports.

It seems to be a commonly used term for what we are looking for. 

maybe you thinking of the common term “aquatic Life” - a common term for things 
that live in water, but a place for aquatic life is commonly known as an 
“aquarium" or a "marine zoo/park" or a “sea world”. 

"Life Aquatic” is a wonderful Wes Anderson movie. But that Didn’t come up 
either. 

Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 19 December 2015 at 17:42, ael  wrote:
> An aquatic centre would normally contain aquaria with typically sea
> creatures, often associated with research. A sort of sea-museum.
> Definitely no swimming pool, although I suppose that a very eccentric
> such centre might offer the experience of swimming with dolphins, but I
> doubt it.

That doesn't seem to be exactly true, I can find aquatic(s) centre in
London, Manchester, Liverpool and Sunderland (amongst others), and all
of them offer swimming, not dolphins :)

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 19 December 2015 at 03:11, John Willis  wrote:
> I would call it leisure=aquatic_center if it is based around pool based 
> exercise/ sports/ competition and leisure=water_park for recreation (like a 
> theme park with slides and splashing and tube pools and whatnot.

I like this one, and I think going with two main tags, water_park and
aquatic_centre (I think we should use UK spelling), is a viable
option.

Alternatively, would aquatic_centre also work as an encompassing tag,
using subtags to specify the usage, as Holger suggests? Would it be
strange to refer to a subtropical waterpark or an outdoor swimming
pool with toys and water slides as an aquatic centre?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Dec 20, 2015, at 6:36 AM, Chris Hill  wrote:
> 
> An aquatic centre is not a swimming pool in non-marketing English.

So what is the term in non-marketing English for a whole facility (not the 
individual pools) ? 


水泳場 is the name of my local giant sports/splash centre in Japanese translates 
into "swimming facility" 

What do people think of that? 

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 19.12.2015 um 17:42 schrieb ael :
> 
> although something like sports_centre with
> a sub-tag swimming=yes seems to capture most such places in a natural


the problem I see with this is that many sports centres will have a swimming 
pool, but just as an additional feature, not several pools/big pools and being 
the main reason/attraction to go there. (this is also reflected by the names 
with which they are referred to, in Germany as well as in Italy)

I can see the problems with water park and aquatic centre and agree that for 
these reasons they likely aren't good choices for main tags for swimming 
facilities.

cheers 
Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

Am 18.12.2015 um 23:09 schrieb Matthijs Melissen :

>> I would be happy if this main tag would be water park, as many
>> mapper are using that because of the rendering already.
> 
> I suppose this is the best we have. If nobody comes up with a better
> tag for the area around a swimming pool (indoors or outdoors), I'll
> start a proposal to standardize on leisure=water_park.


I would like to propose more detailed main tags for bathing related facilities. 
I think water park should be reserved to water parks. Apparently there are no 
good English single words for what is called
Hallenbad (indoor swimming facility)
Freibad (outdoor swimming facility)
Erlebnisbad (water park?)
in German (native speakers, please correct me).
Thermal baths should be differentiated I believe.
These are the main 4 types of these facilities  that come to mind. The outdoor 
facilities can be either pools or in natural waters (rivers typically).
Beach resorts are another category yet.

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Holger Jeromin]

Matthijs Melissen  Wrote in message:
> Hi all,
> 
> There are currently two tags for swimming pools in use:
> * leisure=swimming_pool (511?413 occurences)
> * amenity=swimming_pool (46?495 occurences)


Important topic. Imo for an outdoor water area the
 leisure=swimming pool is OK. 

What about a tag for all swimming facilities (building or area)
 and a separate tag for main usage 
=fun
=wellness 
=health 
=learning 
=sport or competitive 

Would be a easy solution for rendering (can ignore the sub tag)
 and data consumer. 

-- 
Holger


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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 18 Dec 2015 19:46, "Holger Jeromin"  wrote:
> What about a tag for all swimming facilities (building or area)
>  and a separate tag for main usage
> =fun
> =wellness
> =health
> =learning
> =sport or competitive
>
> Would be a easy solution for rendering (can ignore the sub tag)
>  and data consumer.

That would make sense, but coming up with a good tag for this seems quite
hard. Do you have a proposal?

-- Matthijs
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Holger Jeromin]

Matthijs Melissen  Wrote in message:
> 
> 
> On 18 Dec 2015 19:46, "Holger Jeromin"  wrote:
> 
>> What about a tag for all swimming facilities (building or area)
> 
>>  and a separate tag for main usage
> 
>> =fun
> 
>> =wellness
> 
>> =health
> 
>> =learning
> 
>> =sport or competitive
> 
>>
> 
>> Would be a easy solution for rendering (can ignore the sub tag)
> 
>>  and data consumer.
> That would make sense, but coming up with a good tag for this seems quite 
> hard. Do you have a proposal?

I found the nice fitting primary_usage on taginfo. This seems to
 be an attribute for some Swedish highway=track and one parking .
 

But we could use waterpark:usage for separation of meaning. Or
 whatever the main tag is chosen. 

I would be happy if this main tag would be water park, as many
 mapper are using that because of the rendering already.
 


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 18 December 2015 at 21:46, Holger Jeromin  wrote:
> I would be happy if this main tag would be water park, as many
>  mapper are using that because of the rendering already.

I suppose this is the best we have. If nobody comes up with a better
tag for the area around a swimming pool (indoors or outdoors), I'll
start a proposal to standardize on leisure=water_park. It would
perhaps slightly deviate from normal English usage but I don't see a
better way to disambiguate between swimming pool as water area and
swimming pool as the facility including amenities.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[johnw]

> On Dec 18, 2015, at 9:57 AM, Steve Doerr  wrote:
> 
> , I think these establishments did actually provide washing facilities for 
> those, especially the urban poor, who didn't have bath-tubs in the home, and 
> were provided as a public-health measure.


in rural areas, you often see people pull up in their farm truck. A lot of 
people go regularly to their local small tiny onsen regularly for bathing, 
though they could shower at home. 

Going to an onsen gets you “cleaner” than you can at home, unless you really 
spend some time preparing different baths to go with your shower. You always 
feel different when you finish at an onsen over a normal shower and a quick 20m 
tub soak. 

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[John Willis]

> On Dec 19, 2015, at 7:09 AM, Matthijs Melissen  
> wrote:
> 
> tag for the area around a swimming pool

Usually the name for the pedestrian area around the pool is called the 
"pool_deck" , but I suppose you are looking for an all encompassing term.

I would call it leisure=aquatic_center if it is based around pool based 
exercise/ sports/ competition and leisure=water_park for recreation (like a 
theme park with slides and splashing and tube pools and whatnot. 


The question is what tag is used when one is mixed - not by pool (because 
design can dictate that with public pools) but a complex with many different 
types of pools. 

For the example I have earlier, I would use aquatic_center, as it's main 
purpose is as a sports facility, and tag the individual splash pools as 
something else (is there a value for "splash pool" or something, since it 
really isn't for swimming (less than 60cm deep and covered with toys)?

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 18.12.2015 um 19:38 schrieb Holger Jeromin :
> 
> Important topic. Imo for an outdoor water area the
> leisure=swimming pool is OK. 


if it's a pool, yes, for the areas around it, no, e.g. sport pitches, 
playgrounds, lawn, restaurant and cafe, changing rooms etc.
It would be better to suggest a tag for the whole facility as well. Other 
outdoor swimming water areas that are not pools but lakes, rivers or the sea 
shouldn't be tagged as swimming pools either (but they might well be considered 
bathing areas). The same might hold true for outdoor thermal bathing places 
which aren't pools, or are very small pools where swimming is not possible.


> 
> What about a tag for all swimming facilities (building or area)
> and a separate tag for main usage 
> =fun
> =wellness 
> =health 
> =learning 
> =sport or competitive 


why one tag for swimming, but not diving or jumping? What about foot baths 
(i.e. shallow water)? The cold water pools of thermal baths or saunas? IMHO 
there is already an established tag for the places to swim (sport=swimming), 
but it doesn't cover all areas of water where people go into the water for some 
reason (leisure, health, recreation etc.), and it doesn't have to. And it 
doesn't describe the physical characteristics/nature of the place, but is 
rather an attribute to be added. The range of places is so huge that a single 
common tag might not be an advantage (i.e. not even for render style 
maintainers or other data consumers).

cheers 
Martin



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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 17 December 2015 at 21:19, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
> Most public baths in Germany (Hallenbad/Freibad) are tagged
> leisure=water_park no matter if they qualify as such or not (which
> would be commonly called 'Erlebnisbad').

Does this including indoor swimming pools (for example public swimming
pools used for swimming lessons)?

And for the native English speakers: it's still not clear to me
whether this use would be very contradictory to the regular use of
'water park' in English, what do you think?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 17 December 2015, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> > Most public baths in Germany (Hallenbad/Freibad) are tagged
> > leisure=water_park no matter if they qualify as such or not (which
> > would be commonly called 'Erlebnisbad').
>
> Does this including indoor swimming pools (for example public
> swimming pools used for swimming lessons)?

Yes.

With indoor facilities it is of course not usually possible to see if 
they qualify as water_park without having been there but there are 
definitely also many very basic indoor swimming pool facilities that 
are tagged that way.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

I collected some usage statistics of pools I know:

Indoor swimming pool, building:
5x leisure=swimming_pool
2x amenity=swimming_pool
1x leisure=water_park
1x leisure=sports_centre
1x leisure=sports_centre+sport=swimming

Indoor swimming pool, water area:
10x not tagged

Outdoor swimming pool, area:
5x leisure=water_park
2x amenity=swimming_pool
2x not tagged
1x leisure=park and sport=swimming

Outdoor swimming pool, water area:
5x leisure=swimming_pool
2x leisure=swimming_pool and amenity=swimming_pool
1x natural=water
2x not tagged
1x water area under construction

The statistics make the overloading of leisure=swimming_pool for two
different purposes very clear.

-- Matthijs

On 15 December 2015 at 23:41, Matthijs Melissen
 wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> There are currently two tags for swimming pools in use:
> * leisure=swimming_pool (511 413 occurences)
> * amenity=swimming_pool (46 495 occurences)
>
> Historically, amenity used to be the more popular tag, but usage has
> shifted to leisure, with amenity now making up less than 8% of the
> instances. Would it be time to mark the amenity-version as
> 'discouraged' on the Wiki?
>
> In addition, it seems that the swimming pool tags are used for two
> different things: the pool itself, and the entire building/area
> (including showers, cafe, etc.).
>
> Would it be useful and possible to resolve this ambiguity? We
> currently have leisure=water_park, but it seems to more focussed on
> recreational swimming with water slides etc. Does it make sense to use
> leisure=water_park for indoor swimming pools that are focussed on
> swimming lessons or speed swimming as well? If not, should we use
> another tag for such facilities? Any other suggestions to resolve the
> ambiguity?
>
> -- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 17 December 2015 at 23:06, John Willis  wrote:
> Water park- for frolicking - shallow pools with slides, rubber amusements to 
> slide down.
>
> Swimming pool - usually square multi-sport pools for swimming, lap swimming, 
> and water polo.

The difference between these two is not always clear in my opinion.

For example, how would you call this place (same pool during different events)?
http://www.archiduc.lu/wp-content/uploads/piscine-bonnevoie-archives.jpg
http://media.mywort.lu/media/2_3433050

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[John Willis]

> On Dec 18, 2015, at 5:39 AM, Matthijs Melissen  
> wrote:
> 
> And for the native English speakers: it's still not clear to me
> whether this use would be very contradictory to the regular use of
> 'water park' in English, what do you think?

Water park- for frolicking - shallow pools with slides, rubber amusements to 
slide down. 

Swimming pool - usually square multi-sport pools for swimming, lap swimming, 
and water polo.

Bath. - a place designated for the enjoyment of the water on your body - a  hot 
pool to soak in, a mineral or other ingredient to add some "health benefit" - 
or a place to go soak a freshly scrubbed body (Japanese style Onsen). 

This separation can easily be seen in many cultures. 

San Diego is covered with private and public swimming pools, and the easily 
mappable public pools are all *designed and primarily used* for lap swimming 
and swimming lessons. Small bean shaped private pools are mixed use, but 
usually big city owned pools are fairly single purpose. Even the summer "free 
swim" time for kids is to let them learn to swim in a fun place. 

Hot (and cold) places have water parks - Japan has outdoor shallow pools with 
rubber hippos and slides, sprayers and places to splash in the summer, and an 
indoor heated beach with water slides in the winter. 

A bath is designed around bathing or relaxing and enjoying the temperature or 
other property of the bath - a sauna, a mud spring, or possibly a jacuzzi.  

Japan has a huge bathing culture that is totally separate from swimming or 
play. If you go skiing, hiking, on a vacation, or just want to relax on a 
weekend, hundreds of thousands of people go to an onsen every day. An Onsen 
(subset of bath)  is like a health spa atmosphere - go in, clean yourself at a 
sit-down shower, then go into the main bath (which is naturally hot water) to 
relax. Go into the outdoor bath to relax and enjoy some scenery at a beautiful 
spot (if present).  Although many resorts have onsens, they are usually 
stand-alone facilities. There are no water slides or lap pools. No sports 
games. It is for the enjoyment of bathing and water. There are other facilities 
(sento) which is a bathing house with plain boiled water. I know in Scandinavia 
they have saunas and other similar natural and man-created bathing (or 
enjoyment of the water or its properties) too. 

These 3 things are very separate. They just happen to involve water - but the 
purpose and activity (and people's expectations) are vastly different. 

It would be like showing up at a water treatment plant with a surfboard. 
Totally unrelated.  

Perhaps in some places there is a little blue between them - but in my 
experience, they are very easily separated.  An indoor beach is a water park 
and an indoor 50m lap pool with lane markers is a swimming pool and an onsen's 
main bath (much smaller than the others) is a public bath. 

- former swim team /water polo player 
- current Japanese resident who goes to "public baths" - onsens throughout 
Japan. 
- rare visitor of water parks

Javbw.  
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Dec 18, 2015, at 7:29 AM, Matthijs Melissen  
> wrote:
> 
> The difference between these two is not always clear in my opinion.

This is a swimming pool. It is deigned and maintained as a lap pool. Just like 
a house can occasionally have a party - it is not a an event venue, it is a 
house. 

They have a couple plastic toys to help very small kids feel comfortable in the 
water so they learn to swim. It is a method of teaching swimming. 

I learned to swim in a similar place. 

La Mesa Swimming Pool
5100 Memorial Dr, La Mesa, CA 91942, United States
https://goo.gl/maps/jxo26eo47L82

The blurry place (to me) is where a single facility offers many different 
pools. 

Many "public pools" in Japan are officially named a pool, but also offer water 
park amenities. 

This massive "park" has several sports facilities, recreation centers, a lake, 
rose garden, and this pool complex. 
https://goo.gl/maps/kNnuxJ42GNy

-a massive indoor event pool with spectator seating (for swimming /water polo) 

- outdoor lap pool

- 3 outdoor "water park" pools with slides

- a dedicated diving pool. 

Deciding on what to tag each pool is kind of easy. Deciding on what to tag the 
entire landuse for the venue is harder. Officially it is a "pool" complex, 
though it has water park attractions. 


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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-12-16 11:48 GMT+01:00 Christoph Hormann :

> leisure=water_park
> amenity=public_bath
> leisure=sports_centre
>
> I think these pretty much covers the range of swimming amenities -
> except maybe health oriented non-public things.
>


I guess most of the "public baths" are actually tagged as something else,
(leisure=swimming_pool probably). The amenity=public_bath tag is more a
kind of proposal (just 368 instances worldwide, no proposal, not rendered,
not widely known IMHO).

For reference, there is an extensive article on bathing in the wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bathing
(no endorsement of this page, I haven't read it entirely)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 17 December 2015, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> I guess most of the "public baths" are actually tagged as something
> else, (leisure=swimming_pool probably). 

Most public baths in Germany (Hallenbad/Freibad) are tagged 
leisure=water_park no matter if they qualify as such or not (which 
would be commonly called 'Erlebnisbad').

Since leisure=swimming_pool is rendered in the standard style in blue it 
is not widely used for tagging things other than the pool itself.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[johnw]

> On Dec 16, 2015, at 8:38 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> Isn't the term public_bath somewhat outdated? 


Google search 温泉 in Japan


https://www.google.com/maps/search/温泉/@36.3099717,138.9777321,11z 


several thousand red dots will show up. 

an onsen is subkey value of public bath, documented on the wiki. 

some onsen are amenities in a hotel, spa, or mountain inn, but most are stand 
alone facilities. 

this is one of the most common and universal things for friends and family to 
do after an activity (shopping, vacation, hiking, etc) in Japan.

Go to a amusement park with the family? go to the onsen after. 

Going hiking in the monuntains? go to an onsen when done. 

Office lunch party? go wine tasting then go go to an onsen in the afternoon. 

Yes, this means bathing with classmates, coworkers, and family members (almost 
always gender separated) in a public place.

In the US, “public baths” and very rare, and I don’t think I have ever been to 
one. 

in Japan, they are part of every day culture.

https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=onsen=isch=u=univ=X=0ahUKEwjvxtPckOTJAhVjKaYKHdaFBf8QsAQIRQ=1311=834#imgrc=_
 




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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Steve Doerr]

On 18/12/2015 00:23, johnw wrote:


On Dec 16, 2015, at 8:38 PM, Philip Barnes > wrote:


Isn't the term public_bath somewhat outdated?



Google search 温泉 in Japan


https://www.google.com/maps/search/温泉 /@36.3099717,138.9777321,11z 



several thousand red dots will show up.

an onsen is subkey value of public bath, documented on the wiki.

some onsen are amenities in a hotel, spa, or mountain inn, but most 
are stand alone facilities.


this is one of the most common and universal things for friends and 
family to do after an activity (shopping, vacation, hiking, etc) in Japan.


Go to a amusement park with the family? go to the onsen after.

Going hiking in the monuntains? go to an onsen when done.

Office lunch party? go wine tasting then go go to an onsen in the 
afternoon.


Yes, this means bathing with classmates, coworkers, and family members 
(almost always gender separated) in a public place.


In the US, “public baths” and very rare, and I don’t think I have ever 
been to one.


in Japan, they are part of every day culture.

https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=onsen=isch=u=univ=X=0ahUKEwjvxtPckOTJAhVjKaYKHdaFBf8QsAQIRQ=1311=834#imgrc=_



In England, public swimming pools were often called 'swimming baths' 
until the late 20th century. The 'public baths' were understood to refer 
to a building containing a swimming pool for public use. If you go back 
further, I think these establishments did actually provide washing 
facilities for those, especially the urban poor, who didn't have 
bath-tubs in the home, and were provided as a public-health measure.


--
Steve


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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Warin]

On 16/12/2015 9:14 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 16 December 2015 at 11:08, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 16/12/2015 8:53 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 16 December 2015 at 02:07, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

As only the swimming pool should be tagged with swimming_pool... not any
changing rooms, showers, toilets .. that may be present and shared with
other things. These should have their own tags.

Yes, that would make sense. Do you have a suggestion of what this tag
might be?



Tags..

Toilet and show already exist under amenity.

Nearest to changing room .. room=dressing

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:room#Other_values

some 2,000 uses. One may be tempted to use amenity=changing_room .. but that
could be confused with a baby nappy changing room.
  I'd go with room=dressing.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood you. I wondered if you (or somebody
else) has a suggestion for a tag for the collection of the pool(s)
together with dressing rooms, showers etc. Or do you think this
collection does not deserve a separate tag?

-- Matthijs


For an open swimming pool .. I don't tag unless I know where these 
things are. A reasonable person would assume such things are available.

If I know where they are then tag the building
building=yes
toilets=yes
shower=yes
room_dressing=yes ?

Or if you want the detail then tag the building, then add nodes for each 
facility, placed appropriately with their correct tags.


For an roofed swimming pool it would be tagged
leisure=sports_centre (or swimming_pool=yes if that is all that is offered?)
building=yes
toilets=yes
shower=yes
room_dressing=yes ?

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Andy Mabbett]

On 15 December 2015 at 22:41, Matthijs Melissen
 wrote:

> We currently have leisure=water_park, but it seems to more focussed on
> recreational swimming with water slides etc. Does it make sense to use
> leisure=water_park for indoor swimming pools that are focussed on
> swimming lessons or speed swimming as well?

No. In British English, the term "Water Park" means an outdoor
facility - a country park - of several acres, with lakes for
activities like sailing, water-skiing, fishing, and as a nature
reserve. There may be no swimming pools. For example:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotswold_Water_Park

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Water_Park

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Richard]

On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 12:07:17PM +1100, Warin wrote:

> the tag sport=swimming should be used to indicate what sports a 'sports
> centre' supports. Or that a swimming_pool can be used for 'sports'.
> The tag value swimming_pool does not indicatethat the sport swimming takes
> place there .. it may only be a leisure activity rather then competitive.

pool & sport=swimming is another detail that needs a bit attention, I would
certainly vote to attach sport=swimming only to pools usable for sport
purposes.

Current state is:
- only 5% of swimming pools are tagged with sport=swimming - however 42% 
  of sport=swimming tags are attached to leisure=swimming_pool and further 
  (partly overlapping) 37% to amenity=swimming_pool.

- other language wikis are partially inconsistent in this question.


Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 16 December 2015 at 12:26, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> No. In British English, the term "Water Park" means an outdoor
> facility - a country park - of several acres, with lakes for
> activities like sailing, water-skiing, fishing, and as a nature
> reserve. There may be no swimming pools. For example:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotswold_Water_Park
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Water_Park

On the other hand, I can find on the internet 'Splashdown waterparks',
'Calyspo Cove waterpark', and 'Sandcastle Waterpark' as
counterexamples.

Would aqua park be any better? I suppose still it still wouldn't work
for pools mainly used for sport swimming or swimming lessons?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 16 December 2015, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>
> Sorry, I think I misunderstood you. I wondered if you (or somebody
> else) has a suggestion for a tag for the collection of the pool(s)
> together with dressing rooms, showers etc. Or do you think this
> collection does not deserve a separate tag?

leisure=water_park
amenity=public_bath
leisure=sports_centre

I think these pretty much covers the range of swimming amenities - 
except maybe health oriented non-public things.

Currently leisure=water_park is probably quite over-used compared to 
amenity=public_bath since it is rendered in the standard style - might 
make sense to also render amenity=public_bath to avoid this.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Philip Barnes]

On Wed Dec 16 10:48:29 2015 GMT, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> On Wednesday 16 December 2015, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, I think I misunderstood you. I wondered if you (or somebody
> > else) has a suggestion for a tag for the collection of the pool(s)
> > together with dressing rooms, showers etc. Or do you think this
> > collection does not deserve a separate tag?
> 
> leisure=water_park
> amenity=public_bath

Isn't the term public_bath somewhat outdated?  I can remember them existing in 
the 1960s, but they were removed from my local swimming pool building in the 
1970s, the space being used for a training pool.

Phil (trigpoint)
-- 
Sent from my Jolla
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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 16 December 2015 at 02:07, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As only the swimming pool should be tagged with swimming_pool... not any
> changing rooms, showers, toilets .. that may be present and shared with
> other things. These should have their own tags.

Yes, that would make sense. Do you have a suggestion of what this tag might be?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Warin]

On 16/12/2015 8:53 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 16 December 2015 at 02:07, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

As only the swimming pool should be tagged with swimming_pool... not any
changing rooms, showers, toilets .. that may be present and shared with
other things. These should have their own tags.

Yes, that would make sense. Do you have a suggestion of what this tag might be?




Tags..

Toilet and show already exist under amenity.

Nearest to changing room .. room=dressing

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:room#Other_values

some 2,000 uses. One may be tempted to use amenity=changing_room .. but that 
could be confused with a baby nappy changing room.
 I'd go with room=dressing.


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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 16 December 2015 at 11:08, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16/12/2015 8:53 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>
>> On 16 December 2015 at 02:07, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> As only the swimming pool should be tagged with swimming_pool... not any
>>> changing rooms, showers, toilets .. that may be present and shared with
>>> other things. These should have their own tags.
>>
>> Yes, that would make sense. Do you have a suggestion of what this tag
>> might be?
>>
>>
>
> Tags..
>
> Toilet and show already exist under amenity.
>
> Nearest to changing room .. room=dressing
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:room#Other_values
>
> some 2,000 uses. One may be tempted to use amenity=changing_room .. but that
> could be confused with a baby nappy changing room.
>  I'd go with room=dressing.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood you. I wondered if you (or somebody
else) has a suggestion for a tag for the collection of the pool(s)
together with dressing rooms, showers etc. Or do you think this
collection does not deserve a separate tag?

-- Matthijs

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[Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

Hi all,

There are currently two tags for swimming pools in use:
* leisure=swimming_pool (511 413 occurences)
* amenity=swimming_pool (46 495 occurences)

Historically, amenity used to be the more popular tag, but usage has
shifted to leisure, with amenity now making up less than 8% of the
instances. Would it be time to mark the amenity-version as
'discouraged' on the Wiki?

In addition, it seems that the swimming pool tags are used for two
different things: the pool itself, and the entire building/area
(including showers, cafe, etc.).

Would it be useful and possible to resolve this ambiguity? We
currently have leisure=water_park, but it seems to more focussed on
recreational swimming with water slides etc. Does it make sense to use
leisure=water_park for indoor swimming pools that are focussed on
swimming lessons or speed swimming as well? If not, should we use
another tag for such facilities? Any other suggestions to resolve the
ambiguity?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Craig Wallace]

On 2015-12-15 22:41, Matthijs Melissen wrote:


In addition, it seems that the swimming pool tags are used for two
different things: the pool itself, and the entire building/area
(including showers, cafe, etc.).

Would it be useful and possible to resolve this ambiguity? We
currently have leisure=water_park, but it seems to more focussed on
recreational swimming with water slides etc. Does it make sense to use
leisure=water_park for indoor swimming pools that are focussed on
swimming lessons or speed swimming as well? If not, should we use
another tag for such facilities? Any other suggestions to resolve the
ambiguity?


There's also the question of sports centres, which may include a 
swimming pool, along with facilities for other sports, ie sports hall, 
gym/fitness centre, climbing wall etc.
If the swimming pool is in a separate part of the building, and has its 
own name etc, then it makes sense to map it separately. But what if it 
is mixed in with other facilities, and shares the same changing rooms?

Or a swimming pool within a hotel, or a school?

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 15 December 2015 at 23:50, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Why not stick to the simple facts and note that "leisure=swimming_pool
> is the more popular tag to use"? If you say "is discouraged" or "is
> recommended" the question is always, by whom and when did they make the
> decision to discourage it and did they even have a right to do so. If
> you just state the facts then you avoid this problem.

There has been a long tradition of this mailing list (and, before it
branched off, the talk mailing list) making recommendations on tagging
schemes, so I see no reason to suddenly question this. In this case
the recommended tag is the more popular tag, but there have also been
instances were a fewer used tag was recommended.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Swimming pools

[Warin]

On 16/12/2015 10:13 AM, Craig Wallace wrote:

On 2015-12-15 22:41, Matthijs Melissen wrote:


In addition, it seems that the swimming pool tags are used for two
different things: the pool itself, and the entire building/area
(including showers, cafe, etc.).

Would it be useful and possible to resolve this ambiguity? We
currently have leisure=water_park, but it seems to more focussed on
recreational swimming with water slides etc. Does it make sense to use
leisure=water_park for indoor swimming pools that are focussed on
swimming lessons or speed swimming as well? If not, should we use
another tag for such facilities? Any other suggestions to resolve the
ambiguity?


There's also the question of sports centres, which may include a 
swimming pool, along with facilities for other sports, ie sports hall, 
gym/fitness centre, climbing wall etc.
If the swimming pool is in a separate part of the building, and has 
its own name etc, then it makes sense to map it separately. But what 
if it is mixed in with other facilities, and shares the same changing 
rooms?

Or a swimming pool within a hotel, or a school?


the tag sport=swimming should be used to indicate what sports a 'sports 
centre' supports. Or that a swimming_pool can be used for 'sports'.
The tag value swimming_pool does not indicatethat the sport swimming 
takes place there .. it may only be a leisure activity rather then 
competitive.


As only the swimming pool should be tagged with swimming_pool... not any 
changing rooms, showers, toilets .. that may be present and shared with 
other things. These should have their own tags.



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