date:20110622

- Original Message - 
From: ThomasB toba0...@yahoo.de

To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:18 PM
Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community 
Guidelines for temporary file

Dear Legal-list,

My question applies to all kind of software that process OSM data but I am
using Garmin maps as a popular example.

Generating Garmin maps with contours is pretty easy and sometimes 
completely

GUI driven. You select an OSM file, click a button and get a Garmin map. I
have distributed such maps sometimes (for free) to some interested people
who asked me.

First thing to note, is that it is my understanding that the OSM file you 
refer to above is also a derivate database.

In the background it downloads SRTM data from cgiar.org (Consultative 
Group

on International Agricultural Research) and seeds that data into the OSM
data. I think technically they are added as normal osm-ways with specials
tags for the renderer. The cgiar data is non-commercial only (cc-by-sa-nc)
licensed. The final Garmin map is rendered from a temporary file that
contains both datasets and would constitute a Derivative Database.
My point is that a user of software, and this is not limited to Garmin map
software, may not know what a software does in the background i.e. if it 
is

creating a (temporary) Derivative Database, a Collective Database or
whatever. It is unrealistic that a user of software browses through the
directories and check the content of the files there, particularly if the
file exist only a short time during the process. So applying the ODbL 
rules

to software generated temporary files would lead me to the conclusion that
the solution is don't ask, don't mind. Although I personally could live
with that I am not sure if it wouldn't be better to sort it out.
The Trivial Transformations Guideline or Community Guidelines could be a
good place to make it easier. I am neither a license expert nor a lawyer.
From a practical point of view I would wish a clarification like:
/Temporary software generated files used for the generation of a Produced
Work or a Derivative Database that
i) contain data from OSM,
ii) may contain data from other (licensed) sources,
iii) are only created and used for the purpose of the generation of one
Produced Work or one Derivative Database,
iv) will not be used for any purpose thereafter,
v) will not be distributed or made publicly available
do not constitute a derivative database, collective database or produced
work/

But I am not sure about any other (unwanted) implication it may have.

As far as I can see, ignoring your specific example, and genearlising, the 
unwanted implication of your clarification above would be that as long as 
someone deleted the derivate database they had created they could then claim 
it was temporary and therefore sidestep the requirements of the ODbL to 
distribute it.  To avoid this you would thenhave to start defining 
temporary etc.

Regards

David

Kind regards
Thomas

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread John Smith

On 23 June 2011 02:30, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:
 I appreciate your appeal.  In looking through the data it appears a
 lot of it has sense been field server.  Since the original mapper
 traced the data from imagery.  It seems kind of silly for that to
 cause the data to be deleted.

OSM-F went down this path by their own choosing, how they handle data
they haven't gained express permission from will indicate how far down
the moral ladder things have sunk.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

 In looking through the data it appears a lot of it has sense been field
 server.  Since the original mapper
 traced the data from imagery.  It seems kind of silly for that to cause the
 data to be deleted.


I couldn't have said it better (and didn't want to even try  add length to
my post). This issue will most probably apply to especially other crisis
areas (and especially where there's been further development after the
tracing).

But Kate's point is very right: It surely would be silly if we'd end up
deleting data that has been merely traced (which is very easy to do again,
albeit takes some time) but it would be especially annoying if roads that
someone has surveyed properly afterwards the tracing (or have checked the
road geometry from better imagery, for that matter -- something that I have
done a good chunk here!) would have to be deleted (even though there might
really well be much nothing original left in the current version).

In any case the more I think of the idea of allowing users to license some
areas differently the more I like it (even though this would most probably
not be a desired option for those who are actually trying to figure out how
to handle everything during the transition).

Cheers from Haiti,
-Jaakko
http://osm.org/user/jaakkoh

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread John Smith

On 23 June 2011 02:30, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:
 I appreciate your appeal.  In looking through the data it appears a
 lot of it has sense been field server.  Since the original mapper
 traced the data from imagery.  It seems kind of silly for that to
 cause the data to be deleted.

To put this another way, what would happen if someone traced google
imagery and it wasn't till after the street names had been applied
that someone found about the tracing, because that's where things are
at, since you have no more permission to keep data contributed than if
it was contributed from a tainted source.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community Guidelines for temporary file


Hi,

On 06/22/11 15:18, ThomasB wrote:

My point is that a user of software, and this is not limited to Garmin map
software, may not know what a software does in the background i.e. if it is
creating a (temporary) Derivative Database, a Collective Database or
whatever.


Yes. The software might well be proprietary, and so the user would not 
have a chance to really know.


In today's operating systems, whether something is in a file or in 
memory is a boundary that might easily get blurred. It would be kind of 
strange if one algorithm that chooses to build a giant data structure in 
memory (using, for example, a lot of swap space) would be treated 
differently from another algorithm that does exactly the same, but 
writes its data out to a temporary file (which might be a database).


I think that your attempt at solving this problem is a bit complicated 
but I don't have a brilliant idea either. We might just have to live 
with the fact that the same end product, created using different paths, 
may result in different ODbL requirements.


Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:

 To put this another way, what would happen if someone traced google


Well, in the case of Haiti this is exactly what happened a lot -- with
Google's permission, though.

And so, the question is actually pretty darned good: Why would OSM users not
allow their contributions to help alleviate humanitarian crisis if even the
big G did?

And having said that I want to point to my original post where I tried to
emphasize that I respect the choices of the mappers. It's just that I'm
guessing that not many who have declined or haven't decided but are leaning
towards declining have thought of the humanitarian / global development /
even poverty reduction side of their hobby. ... And if asked, not many of
them would want to make life even more difficult to the
world's underprivileged.

Cheers from Haiti,
-Jaakko

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread John Smith

On 23 June 2011 03:37, Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com wrote:
 Well, in the case of Haiti this is exactly what happened a lot -- with
 Google's permission, though.

Haiti is one small area, most of the time people that copy from google
don't have permission.

 And having said that I want to point to my original post where I tried to
 emphasize that I respect the choices of the mappers. It's just that I'm
 guessing that not many who have declined or haven't decided but are leaning
 towards declining have thought of the humanitarian / global development /
 even poverty reduction side of their hobby. ... And if asked, not many of
 them would want to make life even more difficult to the
 world's underprivileged.

Why don't you urge OSM-F to stick with the current license, after all
it's the OSM-F pushing for a license change that will end up causing
data loss.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

- Original Message - 
From: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com

To: Licensing and other legal discussions. legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish 
the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On 23 June 2011 02:30, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

I appreciate your appeal.  In looking through the data it appears a
lot of it has sense been field server.  Since the original mapper
traced the data from imagery.  It seems kind of silly for that to
cause the data to be deleted.

OSM-F went down this path by their own choosing, how they handle data
they haven't gained express permission from will indicate how far down
the moral ladder things have sunk.

In  this particular instance it may be unfair to blame OSMF, see my next 
reply to Jaakko

David

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

- Original Message - 
From: Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com

To: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
Cc: Licensing and other legal discussions. legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish 
the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John Smith 
deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:

To put this another way, what would happen if someone traced google

Well, in the case of Haiti this is exactly what happened a lot -- with
Google's permission, though.

And so, the question is actually pretty darned good: Why would OSM users 
not
allow their contributions to help alleviate humanitarian crisis if even 
the

big G did?

I'm sure there are a number of people who have not agreed to the CT's who 
would be very happy to see their edits in Haiti retained in the OSM 
database, but for whatever reason are unable to agree to the CT's.

The LWG to their credit asked earlier this year if the OSM community 
favoured per changeset relicencing, which might have helped in this 
instance.

The answer of the OSM community was a resounding NO.  So don't blame OSMF, 
don't blame LWG, don't blame individual contributors who have not agreed to 
the CT's.  Its the fault of community !

Now I'm off out to do some mapping!

Regards

David

And having said that I want to point to my original post where I tried to
emphasize that I respect the choices of the mappers. It's just that I'm
guessing that not many who have declined or haven't decided but are 
leaning

towards declining have thought of the humanitarian / global development /
even poverty reduction side of their hobby. ... And if asked, not many 
of

them would want to make life even more difficult to the
world's underprivileged.

Cheers from Haiti,
-Jaakko

--
http://osm.org/user/jaakkoh

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL


Hi,

On 06/22/11 02:15, David Murn wrote:

Im pretty sure that 99.5% of users would never be sued if they put an
OSM map onto their website without proper attribution too, that doesnt
mean that we shouldnt talk about it, or move the conversation to some
obscure list where even the name is enough to scare interested people
away.


Discussion about what kind of attribution is adequate is a typical 
legal-talk topic. That legal-talk was some obscure list is entirely in 
your head and has no basis in reality. The only people who cannot make 
the distinction are those who - mistakenly - believe that just because 
something is important to them it must be important to everyone.



I for one am interested to know the answer to these sorts of questions,


Great. Read legal-talk then.

Bye
Frederik

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[OSM-talk] Random thoughts

2011-06-22 Thread Ed Loach

Thanks to the draft community news on the wiki I've been drawn back
onto this list after reading the thread Nop started on Monday. What
brings me back is considering what the community can do to help
advance to phase 5 *without* remapping. 

I have been in contact with a couple of mappers who were showing as
not responded (using the Authors panel in JOSM, before P2.2 launch)
who mapped near here before I became involved with the project and
haven't been involved much recently (since they finished at
university it seems). I suspected they might not have received any
emails about the change or even be aware of it, which indeed proved
to be the case (the first mapper I tracked down on Facebook, who was
still in touch with the second - both happily relicenced their
contributions). There are 2 others I'm trying to contact which are
proving more difficult; one I'm trying to contact via a local mapper
who once mentioned knowing them, though I've not heard from that
mapper either recently (though they have agreed to relicence); the
other I have only so far tried contacting via OSM messaging. Both
edited in the earlier days of the project and haven't edited
recently, so my hunch is their account linked email addresses are
outdated.

Now I don't want to suggest we contact all the people still showing
as undecided as some presumably have their reasons for not yet
deciding either way, and many *will* have received the emails sent
out already. What I was wondering is how technically feasible it
would be to show on the www.osm.org/user page for any given user
whether emails to them about the licence change had bounced. This
doesn't reveal the email address (so no personal information given
out), but would help those who want to try and track down the
missing contributors know that there is a good chance they won't
be aware of the change yet. It might also be that this is something
I should have suggested before the emails were sent to make
reporting the bouncing status easier to record (if it isn't already
on record).

I do hesitate to suggest this as I realise the volunteers are all
busy and I am unable to help with patches as I don't even begin to
understand how integrated rails is with whatever
sends/processes/receives emails. I just felt that if such a patch
were possible it would offer those of us who could try and help
track people down know where to target our efforts in a positive
way, rather than delete and re-enter data which I personally feel is
wrong (though what will be lost locally I suspect will be minimal).
I'm also a bit concerned about the vagueness of the plan to move to
phase 5; if a user deletes a tainted way which a non-agreer touched
at say v3 and the process reverts it to v2 then the way will return,
so deleting it manually now and adding another copy might make
things worse rather than better. Far better to wait until the
proposed steps are finalised to see what will happen, in my opinion,
while trying to maximise acceptances.

Anyway, I'll try and stay on this list to see what replies I get. I
usually manage 2 or 3 days on this list before disabling mail
delivery as I get so frustrated at some of the bickering I see ;)

Ed


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

Some extra information for the non-Dutch:
'Recently' is this monday. NL stands for The Netherlands.

Every Dutch IT company is protesting the way this ridiculous law is
introduced and it has not yet been fully approved yet.

But since Openstreetmap is not a Dutch company I don't see why they
should adhere to our laws.

Greets,
Floris

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 6:52 AM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert
Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote:

  I discovered that openstreetmap.org  stores

 (flash) cookies on our computers.

 ** **

 Since recently  was decided that in NL 

 cookies are subject to explicit permission of

 the users, I’d think that Openstreetmap provides

 information on what information and settings are

 actually used by OSM.

 ** **

 If you want to check the settings for your computer

 regarding flash cookies, look here:

 ** **


 http://www.macromedia.com/support/documentation/en/flashplayer/help/settings_manager09.html
 

 ** **

 And that is the information released by Macromedia/Adobe only.

 ** **

 ** **

 Gert Gremmen

 -

 [image: Osm]

 Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)

 P* Before printing, think about the environment.* 

 ** **

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:
 Since recently  was decided that in NL 
 cookies are subject to explicit permission of
 the users, I'd think that Openstreetmap provides
 information on what information and settings are
 actually used by OSM.

Ok then.

OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies. Potlatch does. That's
because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants to remember your
preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER highlighting,
function key settings) from one session to the next. 

cheers
Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Markus Lindholm

On 22 June 2011 12:19, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:

 OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies. Potlatch does. That's
 because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants to remember your
 preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER highlighting,
 function key settings) from one session to the next.

But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
all cookies when I close the browser.

/Markus

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

Markus Lindholm wrote:
 But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
 log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
 all cookies when I close the browser.

That works for osm.org but not on a third-party Potlatch deployment, where
it would require the user to authenticate with OSM on opening Potlatch
rather than on first save - not so friendly.

I tend to take the position that people who are worried about privacy to
the extent of blocking all cookies are natural JOSM users. ;)

cheers
Richard




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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Damian Steer


On 22 Jun 2011, at 10:54, Floris Looijesteijn wrote:

 Some extra information for the non-Dutch:
 'Recently' is this monday. NL stands for The Netherlands.
 
 Every Dutch IT company is protesting the way this ridiculous law is
 introduced and it has not yet been fully approved yet.
 
 But since Openstreetmap is not a Dutch company I don't see why they
 should adhere to our laws.

It's presumably an implementation of an EU-wide directive. [1]  It's certainly 
an issue with the UK [2][3] and pretty much everyone seems to be unprepared, 
which puts OSM firmly in the mainstream ;-)

Damian

[1] 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Privacy_and_Electronic_Communications
[2] 
http://www.ico.gov.uk/~/media/documents/library/Privacy_and_electronic/Practical_application/advice_on_the_new_cookies_regulations.pdf
[3] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13345545

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Chris Hill


On 22/06/11 11:19, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:

Since recently  was decided that in NL
cookies are subject to explicit permission of
the users, I'd think that Openstreetmap provides
information on what information and settings are
actually used by OSM.

Ok then.

OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies. Potlatch does. That's
because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants to remember your
preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER highlighting,
function key settings) from one session to the next.



The European directive came into force in the UK (where the servers are 
located) in May 2011. The bluster about this in the press has often 
missed a vital point, that is that para 4 says cookies are exempt if 
they are ‘strictly

necessary’ for a service requested by the user.

The situation is not clear, but it seems to me that is a suitable 
exemption for Potlatch's cookies. If data-gathering cookies, such as 
Analytics, were being used then an opt-in would certainly be required, 
but exactly when and how this might be enforced is yet to be clarified.


There is a fuller explanation from the UK's Information Commissioner's 
Office in a pdf here http://bit.ly/kgurcZ


Further discussion should probably go onto @legal-talk, IMHO.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 12:08 +0100, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Markus Lindholm wrote:
  But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
  log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
  all cookies when I close the browser.
 
 That works for osm.org but not on a third-party Potlatch deployment, where
 it would require the user to authenticate with OSM on opening Potlatch
 rather than on first save - not so friendly.

It also means that your settings are saved per machine rather than per
user, so if Im editing on my laptop then change to my desktop, my
potlatch settings may be different even though Im editing with the same
user account.  Maybe with this new legislation, its worth looking at
some option in the user settings, whether to pass stored settings from
the server to potlatch or whether to use cookies.

Everytime I edit, Im asked to authenticate with OSM before opening
potlatch, is that not normal?


On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 12:15 +0100, Chris Hill wrote:
 
 Further discussion should probably go onto @legal-talk, IMHO.

Is that the new mailing list users are being directed to for all threads
longer than 5 messages now?  Maybe it should be directed to talk-eu
since it only affects the EU?  Maybe it should be directed to talk-dev
since it might be a situation for the developers to make some changes.
Or, maybe its of enough interest to enough people that it should stay in
general discussion.

Seriously, its starting to get seriously tiring when everyone tries to
divert every thread to legal-talk and Im pretty sure those users on that
list would be getting tired of seeing messages that dont belong on that
list.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Steve Doerr


On 22/06/2011 11:19, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies. Potlatch does. That's
because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants to remember your
preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER highlighting,
function key settings) from one session to the next.



That sounds good. In that case, could it be made to remember custom 
backgrounds from one session to the next? If I want to use the UK 
postcode layer, I have to add it manually every time.


--
Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Leaflet 0.2 released

2011-06-22 Thread pavithran

On 22 June 2011 03:03, Vladimir Agafonkin vagafon...@cloudmade.com wrote:
 Leaflet, a new JavaScript library for interactive maps by CloudMade,
 recently reached version 0.2.

Thank you .
 /me likes # Improved panning performance in Chrome and FF
considerably with the help of requestAnimationFrame. #130

Regards,
pavithran

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

Steve Doerr wrote:
 In that case, could it be made to remember custom 
 backgrounds from one session to the next? If I want 
 to use the UK  postcode layer, I have to add it manually 
 every time.

Sure - as ever, put it in a trac ticket. Stuff mentioned passingly on
mailing lists gets forgotten. :)

cheers
Richard



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[OSM-talk] Error on uploads again....

2011-06-22 Thread Douglas Musaazi

Hi, this is Douglas again, from the mapping day event (www.mappingday.com) 
sponsored by mountbatten (www.mountbatten.net), there was an improvement the 
last time i reported this error, and let me thank you for your efforts that you 
made to rectify the problem. However, we are once again experiencing the 
following errors:
http://paperwalking-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/
and
http://walkingpapers.org/scan.php?id=gbdch8q8


help us resolve it and we go ahead with our task of mapping Uganda. Thanks
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[OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community Guidelines for temporary file

Dear Legal-list,

My question applies to all kind of software that process OSM data but I am
using Garmin maps as a popular example.

Generating Garmin maps with contours is pretty easy and sometimes completely
GUI driven. You select an OSM file, click a button and get a Garmin map. I
have distributed such maps sometimes (for free) to some interested people
who asked me.
In the background it downloads SRTM data from cgiar.org (Consultative Group
on International Agricultural Research) and seeds that data into the OSM
data. I think technically they are added as normal osm-ways with specials
tags for the renderer. The cgiar data is non-commercial only (cc-by-sa-nc)
licensed. The final Garmin map is rendered from a temporary file that
contains both datasets and would constitute a Derivative Database.
My point is that a user of software, and this is not limited to Garmin map
software, may not know what a software does in the background i.e. if it is
creating a (temporary) Derivative Database, a Collective Database or
whatever. It is unrealistic that a user of software browses through the
directories and check the content of the files there, particularly if the
file exist only a short time during the process. So applying the ODbL rules
to software generated temporary files would lead me to the conclusion that
the solution is don't ask, don't mind. Although I personally could live
with that I am not sure if it wouldn't be better to sort it out.
The Trivial Transformations Guideline or Community Guidelines could be a
good place to make it easier. I am neither a license expert nor a lawyer.
From a practical point of view I would wish a clarification like:
/Temporary software generated files used for the generation of a Produced
Work or a Derivative Database that
i) contain data from OSM,
ii) may contain data from other (licensed) sources,
iii) are only created and used for the purpose of the generation of one
Produced Work or one Derivative Database,
iv) will not be used for any purpose thereafter,
v) will not be distributed or made publicly available
do not constitute a derivative database, collective database or produced
work/

But I am not sure about any other (unwanted) implication it may have.

Kind regards
Thomas

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Adam Hoyle

Hey Richard,

Sorry to be dumb/lazy, and I'm sure you've told me before, but please can you 
point me at the Potlatch2 trac/svn etc.

thnx,

Adam

On 22 Jun 2011, at 13:54, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

 Steve Doerr wrote:
 In that case, could it be made to remember custom 
 backgrounds from one session to the next? If I want 
 to use the UK  postcode layer, I have to add it manually 
 every time.
 
 Sure - as ever, put it in a trac ticket. Stuff mentioned passingly on
 mailing lists gets forgotten. :)
 
 cheers
 Richard
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

Adam Hoyle wrote:
 Sorry to be dumb/lazy, and I'm sure you've told me before, but please can
 you point me at the Potlatch2 trac/svn etc.

trac is the same for all of OSM: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ . Make
sure to select potlatch2 as the component. And only set the priority to
critical if it causes your computer to catch fire or major if it
deletes whole cities from OSM without any human intervention whatsoever.
:)

Source code is in git these days: my repository is at
https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2 . There's documentation on the
Potlatch 2 pages on the wiki.

cheers
Richard




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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community Guidelines for temporary file


David Groom wrote:
 
 As far as I can see, ignoring your specific example, and genearlising, the 
 unwanted implication of your clarification above would be that as long
 as 
 someone deleted the derivate database they had created they could then
 claim 
 it was temporary and therefore sidestep the requirements of the ODbL to 
 distribute it.  To avoid this you would thenhave to start defining 
 temporary etc.
 

Thanks David. Good point. I think the intention is to avoid that someone mix
OSM with proprietary data and makes a produced work out of it without
sharing the proprietary data.
So let me rephrase it and restrict a bit more

/Temporary software generated files used for the generation of a Produced
Work or a Derivative Database that 
i) contain data from OSM, 
ii) may contain data from other sources that are
  a) free and open licensed /(hope there is a definition for that anywhere)/
and
  b) publicly available
iii) do not contain any proprietary data
iii) are only created and used for the purpose of the generation of one
Produced Work or one Derivative Database, 
iv) will not be used for any purpose thereafter, 
v) will not be distributed or made publicly available 
do not constitute a derivative database, collective database or produced
work 
/


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[OSM-legal-talk] When goes a community guideline change rather than explain a licence


When goes a community guideline change rather than explain a licence?

There are a number of community guideline pages on the wiki.

Some of these pages do clearly seem simply to explain how the ODbL should be 
interpreted, such as We can clearly define things that are USUALLY Produced 
Works: .PNG, JPG, .PDF, SVG images [1]


However on the Trival Transformations guideline page [2] there are some 
examples which rather than explaining the interpretation of ODbL do in fact 
seem to negate some of the clauses in ODbL **.   Now I accept that as 
presently written the Trivial Transformations guideline page seems in fact 
to offer no guidelines, but merely asks a series of questions (i.e. it gives 
examples to which no answers are currently given), but I assume at some 
point this page will be translated into actual guidelines.


So in essence my question is when does a 'guideline' which seeks to exempt 
something from the consequences of a the ODbL, become a change to the 
licence rather than an explanation of it?


Regards

David

[1] 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Produced_Work_-_Guideline
[2] 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Trivial_Transformations_-_Guideline


** the general thrust of a number of the examples sees to be that the 
generation of extracts of the database that does not have any additional 
information added to it, should not be required to adhere to clause 4.6 of 
ODbL. 






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Re: [OSM-talk] Random thoughts (Ed Loach)

2011-06-22 Thread Donald Campbell II

That's a nice little discovery you made there.  And in fact I've missed
credit card notices and things like that due to updated email addresses or
over-zealous SPAM filters.

Perhaps given the amount of work that would be and also the fact that we
don't want to SPAM people that simply don't want to be involved anymore the
list of unresponded contributors could be sorted by number of edits. That
way the people who are personally investigated would be a maximum return on
investment of time and if many of the larger ones are successfully
contacted then perhaps the still missing contributors will be those who
weren't very active and didn't do much editing.  Wouldn't want to delete
half a country if someone merely changed their email and were too busy with
life to stay active in the community.  I'm glad I've joined the lists and
know what's going on or 90% of Guyana would be deleted if I didn't approve
the license change.  Otherwise that would be a huge loss and I'm sure most
people just don't care about the license arguments and just want their work
to not go to waste.  I would be pretty upset if years of work were deleted
because I didn't get the emails.

-Don.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL

2011-06-22 Thread Paul Houle


 On 6/21/2011 4:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:


We have a specalist mailing list, legal-talk, to discuss these matters.

However, in this particular question you are unlikely to find a firm 
answer, given that the question whether temporary files constitute a 
proper manifestation of data or are just an implementation detail of 
an algorithm is something that lots of lawyers are discussing (see 
current cases about streaming media and if consumers need a copyright 
license).


I try to stay out of this argument,  but I'd advise everyone to 
carefully read the text above,  and then read it again.


If I wanted to spend my time talking to lawyers (and could afford 
it) I'd be building applications with Teleatlas and similar data 
sources.  There's no end to the involvement of lawyers,  salespersons 
and other parasites there.


People who want to build applications gravitate towards open data 
precisely because they can escape this BS and be engineers.


Fred has just made a brilliant explanation of why the license 
change is an attempt of the OSMF to commit suicide.  Ten years from 
now,  OSM may well be like Usenet or DOS,  fondly remembered but part of 
the past.  It didn't have to be this way,  and frankly,  the same effect 
of the license change could have been had by just deleting all the 
data,  selling the servers,  and letting the domain names expire and be 
bought by domainers -- except this way people are going to keep wasting 
their time on a project that's been failed.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Steve Doerr


On 22/06/2011 13:54, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Steve Doerr wrote:

In that case, could it be made to remember custom
backgrounds from one session to the next? If I want
to use the UK  postcode layer, I have to add it manually
every time.

Sure - as ever, put it in a trac ticket. Stuff mentioned passingly on
mailing lists gets forgotten. :)


Done: Ticket #3855.

Thanks,
Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Kai Krueger


Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 
 OSM per se doesn't store anything in Flash cookies.
 
OSM doesn't store anything in Flash cookies, but I suspect the law doesn't
say anything about flash specific cookies, but cookies in general ( I
haven't looked at the law though yet, or even read a synopsis of it ). OSM
does use cookies to store session data and the position of where the map was
last positioned.


Richard Fairhurst wrote:
  
  Potlatch does. That's because, oddly enough, it's a Flash app and wants
 to remember your preferences (selected background and stylesheet, TIGER
 highlighting, function key settings) from one session to the next. 
 

Should it become necessary, it would probably be fairly easy to change
Potlatch to not need cookies. (But I am not a Potlatch programmer, so I
might be totally wrong)

The API already has a way to store arbitrary user preferences on the server
( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Preferences ) which the
editors like Potlatch could use to store any of these preferences (in case
they aren't already doing this ). So once you are logged in, you no longer
need cookies.

This leaves the information to log in. Potlatch 2 on osm.org doesn't need to
store any info for authentication, as it can get the necessary data from the
server (if I understand it correctly). This is a little more tricky with
third party potlatch 2 versions that don't use accounts on the third pary
site. The Problem there is, if I understand it correctly, mainly the need to
store the OAuth token.

However, if the osm server was patched to return the same OAuth token
(without needing to ask the user again for permission) rather than recreate
a new token everytime, if the same client/user combination has asked for a
token before, then it would probably not be necessary to store any login
info on the client side, which would hopefully mean no need for cookies.

Kai

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community Guidelines for temporary file

- Original Message - 
From: ThomasB toba0...@yahoo.de

To: legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Exception in Open Data License/Community 
Guidelines for temporary file

David Groom wrote:

As far as I can see, ignoring your specific example, and genearlising, 
the

unwanted implication of your clarification above would be that as long
as
someone deleted the derivate database they had created they could then
claim
it was temporary and therefore sidestep the requirements of the ODbL to
distribute it.  To avoid this you would thenhave to start defining
temporary etc.

Thanks David. Good point. I think the intention is to avoid that someone 
mix

OSM with proprietary data and makes a produced work out of it without
sharing the proprietary data.
So let me rephrase it and restrict a bit more

/Temporary software generated files used for the generation of a Produced
Work or a Derivative Database that
i) contain data from OSM,
ii) may contain data from other sources that are
 a) free and open licensed /(hope there is a definition for that 
anywhere)/

and
 b) publicly available
iii) do not contain any proprietary data
iii) are only created and used for the purpose of the generation of one
Produced Work or one Derivative Database,
iv) will not be used for any purpose thereafter,
v) will not be distributed or made publicly available
do not constitute a derivative database, collective database or produced
work
/

I think that the above wording has the same implications as the points I 
have summarised on my latest post to this list with the subject line When 
goes a 'community guideline' change rather than explain a licence.

Incidentally my post was not written in response to your earlier post, it 
was a query I already had, but it may indicate the timeliness of my post.

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL

2011-06-22 Thread Ed Avis

I would like to suggest the continuation of dual-licensing under CC-BY-SA in
addition to ODbL.  Then, anyone who is currently making use of OSM will be able
to continue doing so with no legal worries.  There would then be a choice of two
ways to use the OSM map data:

- old-style share-alike: your final result must be distributed under CC-BY-SA
  (which is fine for many in the existing OSM community, but not attractive to
  many commercial users)

- new-style 'produced work' under ODbL: you don't have to distribute the final
  work under any particular licence, but you must share the derived database and
  tools needed.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] NOTICE: Scheduled Maintenance - 23rd June 2011

2011-06-22 Thread Kai Krueger

I would like to send a reminder that there will be Server downtime tomorrow,
23rd June, between approximately 7:30 GMT/UTC and 19:30 GMT due to planned
engineering works (relocation of the servers to a different data-center).

During this time no editing will be possible.


Grant Slater wrote:
 
 Please copy this to local lists as appropriate.
 
 Thursday 7:30am (23rd June 2011 GMT/UTC+0) the API and map editing on
 www.openstreetmap.org will be unavailable. The maintenance period is
 expected to last for 12 hours.
 
 The following services will be unavailable during the maintenance period:
 API, editing features of www.openstreetmap.org and
 planet.openstreetmap.org including replication diffs.
 
 The wiki, mailing lists and help.openstreetmap.org will be unaffected.
 
 Technical: Some of the core servers are being re-located to another
 data-centre.
 
 Additional information will be posted to the following link closer to the
 time:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Servers/June_2011_Maintenance
 
 / Grant
 Part of the OSM sysadmin team.
 
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[OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

Hi all,

This may well be my first post to the talk list so let me very briefly
introduce myself.

I started mapping with OSM beginning of 2008 as what I'd say mostly a
vacation/travel mapper + mapping some home corners -- that is, until the
earth quake in Haiti last year.

The quake spiked my interest to OSM and was part of the reason why I ended
up moving here last September (working on something else but using a good
chunk of my time on OSM).

But to go to the point:

Browsing a little with the new license status option of Potlatch 2.2 I'm
seeing unfortunately lot of red on the map (and some orange, too).

So what?

As I suggest in the subject line: I'd really love us not to punish the
world's disadvantaged with our license/CT disagreements.

The thing is that what many have reported and what I've seen first hand OSM
has made and keeps on making a clearly positive difference not only in
crisis response but also in peoples' everyday lives for growing numbers of
people especially in countries like Haiti.

While I fully respect everybody's decision to do (including allow not to do)
what ever they want with their contributions I want to raise a
thought/question (in case no one has before) that it would be an awful shame
if we'd have to trash as much data from OSM, the _only_ good map of Haiti!,
as the coloring of the map implies, eih?

So, two things:

1) I want to ask if it's possible to allow (and then persuade! :) users that
have declined to the license / CTs as well as those that are still undecided
and are leaning to not allowing to allow OSM to continue using their data
for specific areas (without them having to fully accept the change)?
I'm thinking humanitarian crisis areas but this could be extended in
whatever ways.
But to make my real point clear I want to re-articulate my thought:

This is, in some areas, a clear humanitarian issue and can be a matter of
life or death (as it has been in Haiti - and a number of other areas).

2) Big thanks to Ed Loach for the idea of contacting the undecided and Don
Campbell for keeping the thread floating (which is only when it really sunk
to my head). I'll definitely use this to try to persuade some decliners (but
only after I hopefully hear thoughts to the 1st point) ... and hope that we
have enough time to do this before any purging of data begins!

To conclude my post I want to warmly and deeply thank _everyone_ (regardless
of what you think of the license issue / CTs) who has been contributing to
OSM and creating this incredible project -- and changing the world while at
it! I've talked with so many people that have absolutely amazed and
incredibly thankful for the OSM community contribution in Haiti that I've
lost track a long ago. Most heart-warming have been those that have had a
more direct and crucial benefit from OSM (as in soon after the quake) but
there have been so many others ranging from business owners who can to
private people who can -- first time ever -- to give perfect directions to
exactly where they are; and all other kinds. It's really uplifting.

And that in mind, please let's not allow minor -- or even major! --
differences in our opinions to harm the thing that I understand really at
the bottom of things unites us: the desire will to create an (as) Open (as
possible) map of the world.

Cheers from Haiti,
-Jaakko
http://osm.org/user/jaakkoh
--
jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +509-37-269154  *
http://go.hel.cc/MyProfile
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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Adam Hoyle


On 22 Jun 2011, at 14:55, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

  Make
 sure to select potlatch2 as the component. And only set the priority to
 critical if it causes your computer to catch fire or major if it
 deletes whole cities from OSM without any human intervention whatsoever.
 :)

a bug report about a computer catching fire from a flash app is AWESOME - do 
you get many of those ;-)

 Source code is in git these days: my repository is at
 https://github.com/systemed/potlatch2 . There's documentation on the
 Potlatch 2 pages on the wiki.

excellent, cloning as I type this :-)

ttfn,

adam
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com 
jaa...@helleranta.com wrote:



 As I suggest in the subject line: I'd really love us not to punish the
 world's disadvantaged with our license/CT disagreements.

 That's why fosm.org exists.  No data will get deleted.  It will continue
to exist and can be updated at fosm.org.

If you are worried that your data is threatened then that's because you are
now looking in the wrong place.  Fosm has more data than OSM already and
will continue to sync with all OSM updates as well as accepting new updates
directly.

OSM is not trying to punish anyone, its just that the community thinks that
less data under a different license is better for them.  If you are happy
with the way things were then you don't have to lose anything, just change
your URL from osm.org to fosm.org.

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread SteveC

How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue to 
sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?

Steve


On Jun 22, 2011, at 11:18 AM, 80n wrote:

 On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com 
 jaa...@helleranta.com wrote:
 
 
 As I suggest in the subject line: I'd really love us not to punish the 
 world's disadvantaged with our license/CT disagreements.
 
 That's why fosm.org exists.  No data will get deleted.  It will continue to 
 exist and can be updated at fosm.org.
 
 If you are worried that your data is threatened then that's because you are 
 now looking in the wrong place.  Fosm has more data than OSM already and will 
 continue to sync with all OSM updates as well as accepting new updates 
 directly.
 
 OSM is not trying to punish anyone, its just that the community thinks that 
 less data under a different license is better for them.  If you are happy 
 with the way things were then you don't have to lose anything, just change 
 your URL from osm.org to fosm.org.
 
 80n
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stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 12:44 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote:

 Haiti is one small area, most of the time people that copy from google
 don't have permission.


I understand. And so is the humanitarian issue (vs. all mapping done in OSM)
a small area. But that was what I was talking about. The fact that you
wanted to answer to something else was your choice.

As per tracing from Google in general (outside humanitarian crises), the
answer is simple: redraw geometries as needed and if names are involved,
check,those from legal sources or survey.
No rocket science in this?


 Why don't you urge OSM-F to stick with the current license, after all
 it's the OSM-F pushing for a license change that will end up causing
 data loss.


Because I warmly agree with the points in favor of the license change. Yes,
there's inconveniences in the change because of various things including
that people don't believe that it will succeed (which is what OSM has been
up against since the very beginning, eih?).
But the points in favor are very valid and I'm sure the change will succeed
 protect greater good over time. That is, ensure that the Commons is not
abused.

Cheers,
-Jaakko
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread Fabio Alessandro Locati

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue to 
 sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?
I think they will stop it as soon as last CC dump is released

Fabio

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread Nic Roets

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com
jaa...@helleranta.com wrote:
 ... and hope that we have enough time to do this before any purging of data 
 begins!

Jaakko,

I really want to know when that will occur (purging without
resurveying within a reasonable time frame). The LWG said that is a
community decision. I assume that that implies that the Haiti
community (you and your collaborators) can decide by themselves how to
proceed.

Some cities or regions may never see the need to delete non-compliant
data. What will then happen ? The only way I can see that the global
community can make a decision for a local city or region in an orderly
fashion is by a global vote. The whole process could take years.

Regards,
Nic

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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.


Hi,

80n wrote:
That's why fosm.org http://fosm.org exists.  No data will get 
deleted.  It will continue to exist and can be updated at fosm.org 
http://fosm.org.


If you are worried that your data is threatened then that's because you 
are now looking in the wrong place.  Fosm has more data than OSM already 
and will continue to sync with all OSM updates as well as accepting new 
updates directly.


If someone is only worried about data being deleted, then they can 
simply take the CC-BY-SA planet dump and run with it.


If someone doesn't want to go that static route because he wants to 
further participate in the large community updating OSM's data, then 
Fosm won't be any help after OSM changes its license.


Unless of course Fosm could somehow manage to persuade many people to 
contribute to Fosm instead of OSM; which I assume is the basic message 
in this post.


I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map 
Maker were to post a similar message. Hey, don't like how things go in 
OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue
 to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?


1.  fosm.org is functional, you should try it.
2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests it
will be a long time yet.

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.




On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com 
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:


How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional)
continue to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?


1. fosm.org http://fosm.org is functional, you should try it.


I did. Perhaps we use different meanings for 'functional'. OSM shows you 
maps for example. Fosm has a link to 'maps' which 404s.


2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan 
suggests it will be a long time yet.


Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to stop 
using OSM then when it occurs.


Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread Florian Lohoff

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 08:51:43PM +0100, 80n wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 
  How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue
  to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?
 
 
 1.  fosm.org is functional, you should try it.
 2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests it
 will be a long time yet.

Which is a shame - The longer the period the more difficult it'll get to 
sync osm and fosm as people start pushing changes in both areas - read -
multi master.

A couple days ago OSM (Or better the OSM Foundation) started to dislike my
contributions so i'd need to start contributing to fosm which in turn will
make it more difficult to take contributions from OSM. 

The longer the OSM Foundation delays the deletions and relicensing the more
it hurts both projects.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
„Für eine ausgewogene Energiepolitik über das Jahr 2020 hinaus ist die
Nutzung von Atomenergie eine Brückentechnologie und unverzichtbar. Ein
Ausstieg in zehn Jahren, wie noch unter der rot-grünen Regierung
beschlossen, kommt für die nationale Energieversorgung zu abrupt.“
Angela Merkel CDU 30.8.2009


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

jaakkoh wrote:
This may well be my first post to the talk list

Brave soul. :) (But welcome, seriously.)

Browsing a little with the new license status option of Potlatch 2.2
I'm seeing unfortunately lot of red on the map (and some orange,
too).

Don't get too disheartened.

To take your second point first, in my experience most people are actually
pretty amenable to being contacted. A lot will simply not have noticed the
original mail. Others may have seen it but not realised that it's really
something they need to respond to. Personal contact saying hi, I'd really
like to keep your data means a lot.

When you do manage to contact them, the 98.5% agree/1.5% split (of those
who've responded thus far) suggests that in most cases they'll be happy for
the data to continue through to ODbL+CT - so it'll probably be ok.

If not, as David Groom mentioned, the idea of allowing people to say I
relicense these bits, but not those was once mooted - along the lines of
what you suggested. There wasn't much take-up but I see no reason why it
couldn't be resurrected if really needed. It doesn't even need to be part of
the formal relicensing process: you or I or anyone could write a tool that
deleted a problematic object, and recreated it with a clean history, _if_
all the contributors gave their permission to the tool author (and
documented the permission). But I do genuinely think it won't be necessary:
most people are happy to click 'Agree' if you ask.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread Mike Dupont

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:

 **


 On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

 On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional) continue
 to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?


 1.  fosm.org is functional, you should try it.


 I did. Perhaps we use different meanings for 'functional'. OSM shows you
 maps for example. Fosm has a link to 'maps' which 404s.


did you see this?
http://www.archive.org/download/SharedMap2/index.html




   2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests
 it will be a long time yet.


 Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to stop
 using OSM then when it occurs.

 Steve


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flossal.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:

 On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests it
 will be a long time yet.


 Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to stop
 using OSM then when it occurs.


Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to delete all
non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long time before the final
switchover.  What is the point of all this nonsense if you don't ever
actually get to do it?

From here on in, OSM loses ground against fosm.org.  The mass deletions in
OSM (if they ever happen) will put OSM further behind.

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.


Mike  Dupont wrote:
 
 did you see this?
 http://www.archive.org/download/SharedMap2/index.html
 

do you mean the picture coming soon at zoom level 7 or 8? Are you really
planing to use pre-rendered tiles at archive.org for the whole world,
updated by a handful local computers a la BOINC forever?


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.


80n wrote:
 
 From here on in, OSM loses ground against fosm.org.  
 

quite obvious
http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/license_count_2.png

You may be a bit confused with the scales.

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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.




On 6/22/2011 1:26 PM, 80n wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com 
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:


On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan
suggests it will be a long time yet.

Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to
stop using OSM then when it occurs.


Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to delete all 
non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long time before the 
final switchover.  What is the point of all this nonsense if you don't 
ever actually get to do it?


Okay, I take this as you won't actually answer the question.
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:

 **


 On 6/22/2011 1:26 PM, 80n wrote:

 On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:

  On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

  2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan suggests
 it will be a long time yet.


  Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to stop
 using OSM then when it occurs.


 Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to delete all
 non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long time before the final
 switchover.  What is the point of all this nonsense if you don't ever
 actually get to do it?


 Okay, I take this as you won't actually answer the question.


A: We will definitely stop using OSM as soon as OSM switches to ODbL for
it's output.
Q: Now when will that be?

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.




On 6/22/2011 1:46 PM, 80n wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com 
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:




On 6/22/2011 1:26 PM, 80n wrote:

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:

On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current
plan suggests it will be a long time yet.

Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll
have to stop using OSM then when it occurs.


Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to
delete all non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long
time before the final switchover.  What is the point of all this
nonsense if you don't ever actually get to do it?


Okay, I take this as you won't actually answer the question.


A: We will definitely stop using OSM as soon as OSM switches to ODbL 
for it's output.


Thanks


Q: Now when will that be?


Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to give 
you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.


Steve




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[OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

2011-06-22 Thread PJ Houser

Hi all,

I sent this to the talk-us list, but responses have been few. I'm hoping a
bit more dialogue could happen on the talk list.

In Portland, Oregon, four interns at the local transit agency (TriMet -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet) are attempting to improve and update
OSM so as to make it routable. TriMet will be switching to OpenTripPlanner (
http://opentripplanner.org/,
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenTripPlanner) in a few months, and
will draw its base map from OSM. We are trying to make sure streets have
correct geometry, directionality and names; intersections have turn
restrictions; bike routes are properly tagged; and trails and pedestrian
routes are up-to-date, accurate and tagged. The trip planner is multi-modal,
meaning it incorporates bicycling, walking and transit, and combinations
thereof. Anyways, the point is...

We have been tagging multi-use paths that are also considered bike routes as
highway=path and bicycle=designated. Another user prefers highway=cycleway.
What criteria do other mappers use to distinguish between a cycleway and
multi-use path?

Terms:
Cycleway: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway The
highway=cycleway indicates that the used way is mainly or exclusively for
bicycles. Some consider it better to use highway=path if use is not
restricted to cyclists.
Path: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath This tag is
used for paths for which all and any of highway=footway, highway=cycleway,
and highway=bridleway would be inappropriate or inadequate (or simply not
sufficient), but which are nonetheless usable for travel or navigation. They
might be not intended for any particular use, or intended for several
different uses. Intended uses can be indicated with the access=designated
keys. It is also used for hiking trails.

Some examples of multi-use paths that have switched between highway=cycleway
and highway=path:
Eastbank Esplanade
http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105action=ViewPark
Morrison Bridge Multi-use Path
http://bikeportland.org/2011/06/10/morrison-bridge-path-to-close-for-construction-project-54559
Hawthorne Bridge, with both pedestrian and bicycle markings
http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673.

Traffic stats:
In 2008, the breakdown for peak-hour (4-6 pm) usage of these trails shows
that cyclists usually dominate, but pedestrians make up 15% to 50% of the
traffic.
http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34778a=292746

Thanks!
--
PJ Houser
Trimet
GIS intern
username: PJ Houser
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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

2011-06-22 Thread Simon Poole

I would suggest posting to talk-de, the resulting discussion will keep
you occupied the next couple of months :-)

Seriously, essentially the combinations with highway=(track,path) and
bicycle=designated and highway=cycleway plus individual access tags for
other vehicles/usage are equivalent and which you prefer is nearly
purely a matter of taste.

In some countries (ie Germany, Switzerland) bicycle=designated has the
implication that the way has to be used by bicycles (in Germany it's
slightly more complicated), I assume that's not the case in the states.

Simon

Am 22.06.2011 23:25, schrieb PJ Houser:

Hi all,

I sent this to the talk-us list, but responses have been few. I'm
hoping a bit more dialogue could happen on the talk list.

In Portland, Oregon, four interns at the local transit agency (TriMet
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet) are attempting to improve and
update OSM so as to make it routable. TriMet will be switching to
OpenTripPlanner (http://opentripplanner.org/,
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenTripPlanner) in a few months,
and will draw its base map from OSM. We are trying to make sure
streets have correct geometry, directionality and names; intersections
have turn restrictions; bike routes are properly tagged; and trails
and pedestrian routes are up-to-date, accurate and tagged. The trip
planner is multi-modal, meaning it incorporates bicycling, walking and
transit, and combinations thereof. Anyways, the point is...

We have been tagging multi-use paths that are also considered bike
routes as highway=path and bicycle=designated. Another user prefers
highway=cycleway. What criteria do other mappers use to distinguish
between a cycleway and multi-use path?

Terms:
Cycleway: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
The highway=cycleway indicates that the used way is mainly or
exclusively for bicycles. Some consider it better to use highway=path
if use is not restricted to cyclists.
Path: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath This tag
is used for paths for which all and any of highway=footway,
highway=cycleway, and highway=bridleway would be inappropriate or
inadequate (or simply not sufficient), but which are nonetheless
usable for travel or navigation. They might be not intended for any
particular use, or intended for several different uses. Intended uses
can be indicated with the access=designated keys. It is also used for
hiking trails.

Some examples of multi-use paths that have switched between
highway=cycleway and highway=path:
Eastbank Esplanade
http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105action=ViewPark
http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105action=ViewPark
Morrison Bridge Multi-use Path
http://bikeportland.org/2011/06/10/morrison-bridge-path-to-close-for-construction-project-54559
Hawthorne Bridge, with both pedestrian and bicycle markings
http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673.

Traffic stats:
In 2008, the breakdown for peak-hour (4-6 pm) usage of these trails
shows that cyclists usually dominate, but pedestrians make up 15% to
50% of the traffic.
http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34778a=292746 http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34778a=292746

Thanks!
--
PJ Houser
Trimet
GIS intern
username: PJ Houser

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

2011-06-22 Thread Ian

My rule of thumb has been to use highway=path + more precise access tags 
when known and to use highway=cycleway when the path is signed as a 
cycle-only path (in the Twin Cities they do this with bicycle symbols on 
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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

2011-06-22 Thread Nathan Edgars II


SimonPoole wrote:
 
 In some countries (ie Germany, Switzerland) bicycle=designated has the 
 implication that the way has to be used by bicycles (in Germany it's 
 slightly more complicated), I assume that's not the case in the states.
 
Depends on the state (and sometimes the city):
http://bicycledriving.org/law/guide-to-improving-laws#sidepath
I can't see any way to tag a mandatory sidepath correctly with access tags,
since one is presumably allowed to use the roadway to make a turn that can't
be made from the sidepath (so bicycle=destination is incorrect).

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

2011-06-22 Thread Richard Mann

In the UK, we don't really have a concept of a cycle-only path -
they're pretty much all shared with pedestrians.

So we tend to stick with highway=cycleway if bikes are significant /
obviously catered for, and highway=footway + bicycle=yes|permissive if
it's really a bit poor, but bikes seem to be using it with no
objection. highway=path is mostly used for worn tracks across grass or
out in the countryside.

The wiki is only as good as the last person who edited it.

{So my advice is use whichever and don't fret about it unless there's
some important distinction you want to make - and then you'd probably
be better off inventing a brand new key for that important
distinction, so that people don't mess it up}

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 10:25 PM, PJ Houser
stephanie.jean.hou...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all,

I sent this to the talk-us list, but responses have been few. I'm hoping a
bit more dialogue could happen on the talk list.

In Portland, Oregon, four interns at the local transit agency (TriMet -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet) are attempting to improve and update
OSM so as to make it routable. TriMet will be switching to OpenTripPlanner
(http://opentripplanner.org/,
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenTripPlanner) in a few months, and
will draw its base map from OSM. We are trying to make sure streets have
correct geometry, directionality and names; intersections have turn
restrictions; bike routes are properly tagged; and trails and pedestrian
routes are up-to-date, accurate and tagged. The trip planner is multi-modal,
meaning it incorporates bicycling, walking and transit, and combinations
thereof. Anyways, the point is...

Thanks!
--
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Trimet
GIS intern
username: PJ Houser

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

2011-06-22 Thread john whelan

One of the advantages of OSM is you can tag anything with what ever tag you
like. One of the great drawbacks of OSM is you can tag anything with what
ever tag you like.

For Ottawa I used Maperitive and imported a local OSM database. Then I used
the export tags command to export a list of tags in CSV format. Now you get
to the tricky bit.

What you need is either local agreement or your own local version of the
corrected map ie OSM file, or what also seems to be acceptable is correcting
to the list here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Feature_Index.

For local agreement you need a few bodies, so announce a meetup in talk-us
then take a vote. It doesn't seem to matter if you only have two or three
people present the others had the opportunity to make their views known.

For Ottawa we had a problem with paved shoulders, you need them for a good
cycle-map but they don't seem to have them in Europe. We also have multiuse
paths which tagged with all sorts of things.

I created an off line map based on OSM that shows cycle routes. What I
learnt was you need to line up the routing software with the map. So
depending how much control you have on the routing software depends on what
you want the map to say. If you can make the routing software accept that
one or two or three conditions is a valid cycle route then life is fairly
easy. If not then you figure out what it needs call a local OSM meetup of
mappers and put it to the vote. Then you clean up the OSM map as per the
vote.

If you are doing routing on a server then displaying the results on a web
site don't forget that OSM files are XML so you can edit them. Search for
this string and replace with that string and it doesn't really matter what
is in the official OSM database your local version of the database is
correct for the routing software.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WkJzx5NffRv0TIQgCFFGTQzyqbQ9XDphSLqcjuM8wGM/edit?hl=en_US

Cheerio John

On 22 June 2011 17:25, PJ Houser stephanie.jean.hou...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi all,

I sent this to the talk-us list, but responses have been few. I'm hoping a
bit more dialogue could happen on the talk list.

We have been tagging multi-use paths that are also considered bike routes
as highway=path and bicycle=designated. Another user prefers
highway=cycleway. What criteria do other mappers use to distinguish between
a cycleway and multi-use path?

Some examples of multi-use paths that have switched between
highway=cycleway and highway=path:
Eastbank Esplanade
http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105action=ViewPark
Morrison Bridge Multi-use Path
http://bikeportland.org/2011/06/10/morrison-bridge-path-to-close-for-construction-project-54559
Hawthorne Bridge, with both pedestrian and bicycle markings
http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673.

Thanks!
--
PJ Houser
Trimet
GIS intern
username: PJ Houser

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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

2011-06-22 Thread Simon Poole


Am 23.06.2011 00:31, schrieb john whelan:


For Ottawa we had a problem with paved shoulders, you need them for a 
good cycle-map but they don't seem to have them in Europe.  We also 
have multiuse paths which tagged with all sorts of things.
Nearly all motorways in Europe (that's a bit of a blanket statement) 
have paved shoulders, but (another blanket statement) since motorways 
are a big no no* for bicycles, they are not relevant for bicycle routing.


Simon

* and that is very very sensible

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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 21:17 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:

 I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map 
 Maker were to post a similar message. Hey, don't like how things go in 
 OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!

Except that

a) Map Maker never had any compatability with any version of OSM
b) Users who used OSM for the past few years dont necessarily want
licence issues 'solved' (especially if the only difference they see is a
degraded map)
c) fosm isnt a wholey different project in the same way MapMaker is.
fosm is a copy of OSM, and the two will parallel each other until the
time that OSM splits off with a new licence change.  If you think of
fosm as the continuation and OSM as the fork with 'all licence issues
solved', youre more on-track to the situation

The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
and theyll see one is a small subset of the other, until the time that
the main OSM project can come close to making up for the data that has
had to be removed.  Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
seeing complete maps.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

Well there's one other aspect which is there are chunks of data only 
available to OpenStreetMap and nobody else.


On 6/22/2011 4:22 PM, David Murn wrote:

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 21:17 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:


I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map
Maker were to post a similar message. Hey, don't like how things go in
OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!

Except that

a) Map Maker never had any compatability with any version of OSM
b) Users who used OSM for the past few years dont necessarily want
licence issues 'solved' (especially if the only difference they see is a
degraded map)
c) fosm isnt a wholey different project in the same way MapMaker is.
fosm is a copy of OSM, and the two will parallel each other until the
time that OSM splits off with a new licence change.  If you think of
fosm as the continuation and OSM as the fork with 'all licence issues
solved', youre more on-track to the situation

The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
and theyll see one is a small subset of the other, until the time that
the main OSM project can come close to making up for the data that has
had to be removed.  Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
seeing complete maps.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 13:49 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:

 Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to
 give you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.

Such a pity you dont extend the same feelings to those 'yes guys' who
wish to change their acceptance.  Except that changing from no to yes is
generally upto the mapper, those who wish to change the other way are
trying to protect themselves and the OSM project from liability.  Surely
with the whole purpose of the licence change being to purge any
non-compatible data, these requests should be taken seriously, not in
the way they generally have been, with refusal.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=cycleway or highway=path

2011-06-22 Thread john whelan

Locally they dump snow on them in winter.  At minus thirty for some reason
we don't get many cyclists probably because of the snow banks on the paved
shoulder.  A cycle lane by the side of the road is different, they get
ploughed in winter and even at minus thirty you see a few cyclists, I think
its 4% of the summer numbers.

Local conditions vary, as a cyclist you want to know if the shoulder is
paved its safer especially in the summer and they are paved specifically for
cyclist but sort of seasonal.

Cheerio John

On 22 June 2011 18:41, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:

 Am 23.06.2011 00:31, schrieb john whelan:


 For Ottawa we had a problem with paved shoulders, you need them for a good
 cycle-map but they don't seem to have them in Europe.  We also have multiuse
 paths which tagged with all sorts of things.

 Nearly all motorways in Europe (that's a bit of a blanket statement) have
 paved shoulders, but (another blanket statement) since motorways are a big
 no no* for bicycles, they are not relevant for bicycle routing.

 Simon

 * and that is very very sensible


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.


Why do you feel you have a liability?

Steve

On 6/22/2011 4:29 PM, David Murn wrote:

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 13:49 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:


Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to
give you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.

Such a pity you dont extend the same feelings to those 'yes guys' who
wish to change their acceptance.  Except that changing from no to yes is
generally upto the mapper, those who wish to change the other way are
trying to protect themselves and the OSM project from liability.  Surely
with the whole purpose of the licence change being to purge any
non-compatible data, these requests should be taken seriously, not in
the way they generally have been, with refusal.

David




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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread john whelan

I absolutely agree.

Cheerio John

On 22 June 2011 19:29, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote:

 On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 13:49 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:

  Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to
  give you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.

 Such a pity you dont extend the same feelings to those 'yes guys' who
 wish to change their acceptance.  Except that changing from no to yes is
 generally upto the mapper, those who wish to change the other way are
 trying to protect themselves and the OSM project from liability.  Surely
 with the whole purpose of the licence change being to purge any
 non-compatible data, these requests should be taken seriously, not in
 the way they generally have been, with refusal.

 David


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.


Hi,

David Murn wrote:

Except that


[...]

My argument rested on the potential consequences for OSM: Someone pops 
up on an OSM list and says why don't you all go elsewhere?


For this argument, it doesn't matter if the other thing has the same 
roots, the same technology, or the same general idea; the other thing 
might be superior in every regard and *still* it have a bad taste to it 
if the creators of the other were to cast their net on OSM mailing lists.



The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
and theyll see one is a small subset of the other


Can you give a definition of small subset?


Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
seeing complete maps.


Oh, I think it is perfectly ok to take a snapshot of all our tiles the 
day before the changeover and make them available somewhere. In fact I 
was thinking that OSM would do so themselves, maybe even offer old 
CC-BY-SA tiles and new updated tiles as a choice on openstreetmap.org. 
Of course if fosm.org does that already then maybe it is unnecessary to 
do it twice.


I am not so much concerned about data at all; I am concerned about 
community members and I would hate to see an effort to smear OSM's 
reputation in order to get people to contribute to another, 
incompatible project - whether that is Google Map Maker, or a superior 
open source endeavour.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

2011-06-22 Thread SomeoneElse


On 22/06/2011 21:22, Mike Dupont wrote:



On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com 
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:




On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:

How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being
functional) continue to sync with OSM when the licenses are
incompatible?


1. fosm.org http://fosm.org is functional, you should try it.


I did. Perhaps we use different meanings for 'functional'. OSM
shows you maps for example. Fosm has a link to 'maps' which 404s.


did you see this?
http://www.archive.org/download/SharedMap2/index.html





Odd.  zoom in to the dizzy heights of 16 (in Denmark WA FWIW) and you 
get picture coming soon.   I picked Denmark because it's somewhere 
that I've been and added stuff (to OSM, but would also like to see the 
likes of FOSM using that same data too).  Competion is good.  It seems a 
bit of a shame that the forkers are being let down by a rather poor 
implementation (or so it seems) so far.



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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 16:25 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:
 Well there's one other aspect which is there are chunks of data only 
 available to OpenStreetMap and nobody else.

Does the data exclusively available under the ODbL outweigh the data
exclusively available under CC?  Since not even OSM uses the ODbL yet, I
find it totally amazing that any other entity would be.

Also..

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 16:35 -0700, Steve Coast wrote: 
 Why do you feel you have a liability?

Because I have used data from a source which cannot be relicenced.  Id
feel the same way if Id taken OSM data and put it into another external
project, which was then planning to change its licence and take the OSM
data along with it.

Personally, I dont have a liability as I was aware early enough that my
contributions couldnt be relicenced.  Unfortunately some people have
accepted the CTS without fully understanding that they didnt have the
rights to relicence the data.  The fact of having each individual user
accept contributor terms, means that effectively you have passed the
liability directly onto the user who contributed the 'offending' data
rather than the foundation who refuse to remove the data in the first
place.

David

 On 6/22/2011 4:22 PM, David Murn wrote:
  On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 21:17 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 
  I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map
  Maker were to post a similar message. Hey, don't like how things go in
  OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!
  Except that
 
  a) Map Maker never had any compatability with any version of OSM
  b) Users who used OSM for the past few years dont necessarily want
  licence issues 'solved' (especially if the only difference they see is a
  degraded map)
  c) fosm isnt a wholey different project in the same way MapMaker is.
  fosm is a copy of OSM, and the two will parallel each other until the
  time that OSM splits off with a new licence change.  If you think of
  fosm as the continuation and OSM as the fork with 'all licence issues
  solved', youre more on-track to the situation
 
  The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
  and theyll see one is a small subset of the other, until the time that
  the main OSM project can come close to making up for the data that has
  had to be removed.  Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
  maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
  seeing complete maps.
 
  David
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.


Hi,

SomeoneElse wrote:
Odd.  zoom in to the dizzy heights of 16 (in Denmark WA FWIW) and you 
get picture coming soon.   I picked Denmark because it's somewhere 
that I've been and added stuff (to OSM, but would also like to see the 
likes of FOSM using that same data too).  Competion is good.  It seems a 
bit of a shame that the forkers are being let down by a rather poor 
implementation (or so it seems) so far.


Just be patient. The world on zoom level 18 has 100 billion tiles with 
an estimated data volume of 450 terabytes. It takes a while to upload 
them all to archive.org!


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Flash cookies

2011-06-22 Thread Steve Bennett

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Markus Lindholm
markus.lindh...@gmail.com wrote:
 But there's no need to store them on the client, as all users have to
 log in the preferences can be stored server-side. Atleast I throw away
 all cookies when I close the browser.

So out of curiosity, the proposed law says it's ok to store user
preferences server side, but not in the browser? That doesn't make any
sense at all, from a privacy perspective.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Boeien nederlandse kust

2011-06-22 Thread ZeilDude


Hello Erik,

Ik ben nieuw hier (lukt al wel een tijd mee) en goed je hier ook te treffen.

Hoe ben je van plan de vele BaZ's en andere wijzigingen door te voeren?

De lijst van RWS wordt iedere 2 weken bijgewerkt en per jaar zijn er ongeveer 
1000 wijzigingen.


Ik heb n.l. ook al een tijdje op e.e.a. zitten broeden (zeilen heeft nu hogere 
prioriteit :-) ) en het up-todate houden van de kaart is volgens mij de grootste 
uitdaging, tenzij je alles met de hand wilt bijhouden.





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[OSM-talk-nl] Node en shape samenvoegen

2011-06-22 Thread Frank Fesevur

Hoi,

Weet iemand een handige methode om een enkele node en een shape samen te voegen.

Na de 3dshapes-import zijn er veel plekken waar een oude poi-node
staat waar nu een gebouw ingetekend is. Vaak wil je die informatie nu
aan dat gebouw hangen en de losse node weghalen. Wat is de handigste
manier om dit te doen met JOSM?

Gegroet,
Frank

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[OSM-talk-nl] NOTICE: Scheduled Maintenance - 23rd June 2011

2011-06-22 Thread Henk Hoff

Voor het geval je de eerste aankondiging hebt gemist (of gewoon een reminder
)

Morgen zullen enkele servers verplaatst worden naar een ander data-center.
Dit heeft oa als gevolg dat gedurende dat proces de kaart niet wijzigbaar
is. Dus wijzigingen in Potlatch, JOSM, Merkaartor of welke andere app je ook
gebruikt zullen een foutmelding gaan geven.

Dit zal plaatsvinden donderdag 23 juni tussen 9.30 en 21.30 uur nederlandse
tijd.

Groet,
Henk Hoff

-- Forwarded message --
From: Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] NOTICE: Scheduled Maintenance - 23rd June 2011
To: t...@openstreetmap.org


I would like to send a reminder that there will be Server downtime tomorrow,
23rd June, between approximately 7:30 GMT/UTC and 19:30 GMT due to planned
engineering works (relocation of the servers to a different data-center).

During this time no editing will be possible.


Grant Slater wrote:

 Please copy this to local lists as appropriate.

 Thursday 7:30am (23rd June 2011 GMT/UTC+0) the API and map editing on
 www.openstreetmap.org will be unavailable. The maintenance period is
 expected to last for 12 hours.

 The following services will be unavailable during the maintenance period:
 API, editing features of www.openstreetmap.org and
 planet.openstreetmap.org including replication diffs.

 The wiki, mailing lists and help.openstreetmap.org will be unaffected.

 Technical: Some of the core servers are being re-located to another
 data-centre.

 Additional information will be posted to the following link closer to the
 time:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Servers/June_2011_Maintenance

 / Grant
 Part of the OSM sysadmin team.

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Node en shape samenvoegen

2011-06-22 Thread Willem Sonke

Mij lijkt een handige manier: node selecteren, kopiëren met Ctrl+C, 
shape selecteren en tags plakken met Ctrl+Shift+V. Daarna kan de node 
verwijderd worden.


Met vriendelijke groeten,
Willem Sonke

On 22-6-2011 22:31, Frank Fesevur wrote:

Hoi,

Weet iemand een handige methode om een enkele node en een shape samen te voegen.

Na de 3dshapes-import zijn er veel plekken waar een oude poi-node
staat waar nu een gebouw ingetekend is. Vaak wil je die informatie nu
aan dat gebouw hangen en de losse node weghalen. Wat is de handigste
manier om dit te doen met JOSM?

Gegroet,
Frank

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Re: [Talk-br] Imagens Aéreas do Estado de Minas Gerais

2011-06-22 Thread Ricardo Padilha

Oi pessoal,

O problema maior não é tanto o espaço (um disco de 2 TB está até
relativamente barato hoje em dia). O problema maior é um servidor com
largura de banda suficiente para fazer upload de 1 TB antes do final da
década. E depois disso, tem que ter largura de banda suficiente para servir
o conteúdo.

Eu poderia até tentar negociar um espaço no rack da universidade onde
estou para colocar um servidor(zinho) FTP, mas não garanto nada.

Alguém tem contato com o pessoal da UFMG para perguntar se eles não
hospedariam isso?

Att,
Ricardo

2011/6/21 enqd e...@ymail.com

 Olá Samuel,  Fico feliz em ter feito contato. 1TB realmente é espaço
 adoidado, é muita mídia. Fui no irc do osm e fiz uma pergunta se alguem tem
 espaço em servidores  para colocar as imagens, mas ninguém respondeu. Mas
 acho que vale uma mensagem na lista perguntando novamente.
 Essa questão do termo, fiquei curioso, será que tem alguma restrição? Se as
 imagens foram compradas com dinheiro público, deveriam ser de domínio
 público. Deixa o pessoal usar as imagens do jeito que quiserem, rsrsrs.
 Já que não existe espaço suficiente em HD/midias para copiar as imagens de
 todo estado, concordo em requisitar as imagens dos municípios que o pessoal
 aqui tiver interesse. Quando acharmos uma solução para armazenar todas as
 imagens, agente (samuel) vai requisitando mais imagens junto ao IEF..
 Lembrando que talvez o próprio IEF armazene essas imagens no servidor deles
 em breve (esse breve geralmente demora viu). Samuel: Vc questionou isso?
 Enfim, já que temos poucas cidades (4 até agora) seria interessante
 requisitar as 3 coberturas.
 Outra pergunta: No seu servidor, tem espaço para armazenar quanto? Vc
 saberia montar um servidor wms para que as imagens possam por exemplo serem
 usadas no OSM? Eu espero que o serviço OpenaerialMap comece a funcionar
 novamente em breve para que possamos armazenar essas imagens lá.

 Muito Obrigado Samuel. Ficamos no aguardo

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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

2011-06-22 Thread Wolfgang

Hallo,
Am Mittwoch 22 Juni 2011 03:55:30 schrieb phobie:

 
 Zu tram:
 Ich kenne bis heute keine bessere Möglichkeit um zu beschreiben, das
 Bahnschienen in der Straße verlaufen.
 Wie bei highway taggen wir ja auch mit railway den Ausbauzustand und
 nicht die Nutzungsart.
 Ansonsten ist noch mit usage=industrial alles gesagt...
 Es sollte weder bei Redering noch bei Routing (gibt es railway routing?)
 Probleme geben!
 
hmm...

Sachlich gesehen ist es so, dass auch die richtige Straßenbahn früher 
Güterwagen auf den Straßen befördert hat. Außerdem ist in einigen Städten der 
Übergang zwischen Straßenbahn und Eisenbahn fließend.

Aber so richtig intuitiv glücklich bin ich mit dem Tag für Industriegleise, 
die in keinerlei Zusammenhang mit einer richtigen Straßenbahn stehen, auch 
nicht.

railway=commercial_conection(WIrtschaftsanschlussgleis)
railway=industrial_connection   (Industrieanschlussgleis)
railway=road_connection (Straßenanschlussgleis)
railway=road_connection_track   (Straßenanschlussgleis)

Was meint ihr?

Gruß, Wolfgang

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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

2011-06-22 Thread Peter Wendorff


Am 22.06.2011 10:08, schrieb Wolfgang:

Hallo,
Am Mittwoch 22 Juni 2011 03:55:30 schrieb phobie:


Zu tram:
Ich kenne bis heute keine bessere Möglichkeit um zu beschreiben, das
Bahnschienen in der Straße verlaufen.
Wie bei highway taggen wir ja auch mit railway den Ausbauzustand und
nicht die Nutzungsart.
Ansonsten ist noch mit usage=industrial alles gesagt...
Es sollte weder bei Redering noch bei Routing (gibt es railway routing?)
Probleme geben!


hmm...

Sachlich gesehen ist es so, dass auch die richtige Straßenbahn früher
Güterwagen auf den Straßen befördert hat.

In Dresden ist das immer noch/wieder so:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CarGoTram_%28Dresden%29

Gruß
Peter

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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

Am 22. Juni 2011 03:55 schrieb phobie omlists.pho...@safersignup.com:
 Was das taggen von Fahrradstraßen mit highway=cycleway an geht:
 Soweit ich mich erinnern kann ging es vor 2 Jahren um 2 Fahrradstraßen
 in Kiel.
 Ich hatte das Tagging aber schnell wieder aufgegeben, weil es Konsens
 ist, dass highway nur den Ausbauzustand und nicht die Nutzung beschreibt.


highway sollte eigentlich die Verbindungswichtigkeit (bei allgemeinen
Straßen) bzw. den rechtlichen Status (z.B. bei Fuß-/Fahrrad-Wegen /
Tracks, Autobahnen, etc.) wiedergeben. Der Ausbauzustand wird mit tags
wie lanes, surface, tracktype, width festgehalten.


 Leider gibt es bis heute keinen Tag für Fahrradstraßen und das Rendering
 ist bis heute unbefriedigend.


+1, ich war schon immer für highway=cycleroad (o.ä.) aber bisher (=in
den letzten Jahren) war die Mehrheit dafür, das nicht zu machen.


 Probleme mit dem Routing gab es niemals egal ob mit highway=cycleway
 oder highway=residential .


doch, klar gibt es Probleme mit dem Routing, wenn man cycleway taggt
(weil man Kfz damit aussperrt).


 Zu tram:
 Ich kenne bis heute keine bessere Möglichkeit um zu beschreiben, das
 Bahnschienen in der Straße verlaufen.


note? Evtl. einen neuen Extratag, aber tram ist einfach was komplett
anderes als eine Eisenbahn.


 Zu den Laderampen:
 Besser wäre wohl railway=disused + disused=stop + passengers=no gewesen.
 Könnte man ja mal drüber reden, was du jetzt draus gemacht hast ist auf
 jeden Fall kontraproduktiv.


industrielle Bahnen (Laderampen) haben jedenfalls mit public transport
nichts zu tun.


 Und aggressives Verhalten halte ich für nicht erstrebenswert.
 Ein editwar bringt uns auch nicht weiter.


+1. Daher wäre es aber auch nicht schlecht gewesen, so was wie Deine
versuchte Vereinheitlichung vorher mal kurz hier anzusprechen. In der
Sache halte ich es für ziemlich egal, ob in source:maxspeed zone,
zone:30, oder DE:zone steht, solange in maxspeed die richtige
Höchstgeschwindigkeit eingetragen ist, ein Rückändern ist daher m.E.
auch mehr history-spam als hilfreich.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

2011-06-22 Thread Walter Nordmann


M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
  Daher wäre es aber auch nicht schlecht gewesen, so was wie Deineversuchte
 Vereinheitlichung vorher mal kurz hier anzusprechen.
Hi,

inhaltlich kann/will ich nichts zu demTagging und der Anpassung deinerseits
sagen. Ob das so besser, hübscher, einheitlicher, sinnvoller ist, ist mir
eigentlich egal.
Nur die Art und Weise der Durchführung - nicht zu Unrecht mit Durchziehen
betitelt - geht mir erheblich gegen den Strich.

Wir haben klare Regeln, was Bulk-Uploads betrifft und ich bin der Meinung,
dass diese hier auch gelten:

*Vorher drüber reden* - ja, auch in talk-de und im Forum, besser aber noch
in der Tagging-ML
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Tagging-f4411380.html, damit uns und Dir
solchen unangenehmen Überaschungen erspart bleiben. 

Gruss
Walter


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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

2011-06-22 Thread Schorschi

Moin,

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, phobie wrote:

 On 21.06.2011 23:15, Schorschi wrote:

  da hat jemand großflächig seine Meinung durchgesetzt ...

 Ich habe nicht meine Meinung durchgesetzt, sondern nur
 DE:zone, zone, DE:zone, de:zone, DE:zone20, DE:zone:20, DE:zone30 und
 DE:zone:30
 unter den verwendeten Werten gefunden und nach einer sinnvollen,
 einheitlichen Lösung gesucht.
 Und DE:zone:zahl scheint mir da die beste Lösung zu sein auch wenn sich
 zusammen mit maxspeed eine kleine Redundanz bilden könnte...

sagen wir mal, es war die Art und Weise, die Anstoß erregte ... im Wiki 
eine klare sachliche Aussage (dass DE:zone:30 eben redundanter ist als 
DE:zone) mit der Bemerkung nicht NPOV zu revertieren, ist ziemlich 
unglücklich, denn die Bemerkung, dass etwas redundant ist, ist sachlich 
und damit eben NPOV. Ich habe das (ohne die angemeckerte Bemerkung) wieder 
eingetragen.

Ich sehe hier keinen Grund für Redundanzen und weiß auch nicht, wieso man 
welche einführen sollte. Darüber hatten wir es hier vor ein paar Monaten 
schon mal, und aus der damaligen Diskussion habe ich für mich den Schluss 
gezogen, dass DE:zone ausreichend ist (ich bin nicht der einzige, der 
dieser Meinung ist). Es gibt also erstmal keinen Grund, von einer kürzeren 
Lösung, die genauso klar ist, abzurücken - und dafür flächendeckend alles 
auf die längere Version zu ändern.

Ich werde Stück für Stück bei entsprechenden Bearbeitungen die Redundanzen 
einfach wieder rausschmeißen, es sei denn jemand anderes ist hier noch der 
Meinung, die erhöhte Redundanz wäre sinnvoll.

 Aber was Redundanz an geht würde ich erst einmal über addr:country und
 addr:city nachdenken!

Das es an anderer Stelle Redundanzen gibt, ist ja bekanntlich kein 
Argument, es hier auch zu machen - wenn das als Argument zählen würde, 
würden wir gar nicht vorwärts kommen. Und wenn man dann noch das Schlechte 
auf der Welt als Vorbild nähme ...

 Was würdest du vorschlagen und warum ist es anders besser?

Siehe oben - inklusive der Anmerkung, dass ich die Änderung im 
Zusammenhang mit der unsachlichen Rückänderung im Wiki schlechten Stil 
finde.

  oder habe ich eine Diskussion verpasst?

 Muss ich jetzt vor jedem Commit eine Diskussion starten?
 Ich versuche die Qualität der Daten zu erhöhen,
 wenn sich alle darauf konzentrieren würden,
 würde auf talk-de weniger getalked...

ich glaube nicht, dass ich hier groß als Labertasche auffalle ... darum 
geht es also nicht. In meinen Augen wurde die Qualität der Daten bei 
deiner Aktion nicht erhöht.

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[Talk-de] Welches Navi und welche Karte für Pizzadienst?

2011-06-22 Thread Steffen Grunewald

Hallo,

ein Bekannter denkt darüber nach, für einen Lieferservice als Fahrer 
anzufangen.
Da er nicht alle Ecken der Stadt und des Umlandes kennt, braucht er 
ein Navi und möglichst aktuelle Karten - und sprach mich an, weil ich
mich doch mit sowas auskenne.
OpenStreetMap ist klar, aber welche?
Die Kleineisel-Karte für Garmin scheint geeignet, weil Adressen in POIs 
umgewandelt vorliegen.
Gibt es irgendwelche Alternativen? (Navigon? Medion? TomTom? Welche Karte?)
Oder sollte ich ihn auf den guten alten Stadtplan verweisen (in dem auch
nicht alle neu gebauten oder umbenannten Straßen drin sind...)?

Danke für Tipps,
 S.

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Re: [Talk-de] amenity=education? //Re: VHS Außenstellen taggen // Re: OSM an der VHS - OSM-DVD

Am 21. Juni 2011 20:41 schrieb RalfGesellensetter r...@gmx.de:
 danke zunächst für die Idee, VHS-Gebäude mit einem Multipolygon
 zu taggen. Wie du aber schreibst, eignet sich das beser
 für Gebäude, die auf einem Gelände liegen, als über mehrere
 Dörfer verstreute Dependenzen, die übrigens primär unterschiedliche
 Betreiber bzw. als gemeinsamen Betreiber die Kommune haben
 (VHS ist nur _eine_ Nutzerin).


das Hauptproblem ist, dass man die Komplexität erhöht, was den Zugang
für andere Mapper erschwert und Fehler wahrscheinlicher macht. Weitere
Probleme können entstehen, wenn z.B. ein Multipolygon Objekte auf
mehrere Bundesländer oder gar Länder verteilt, und dann Nutzer nur
Extrakte verwenden, wo dann Teile der Geometrie fehlen. Auch
Mittelpunktsberechnungen o.Ä. führen dann zu verwirrenden Ergebnissen,
so dass ich davon eigentlich abraten würde. Evtl. ist es auch ein
Problem, wenn man Boundingboxen für das Gesamtobjekt berechnet, und
man dann immer diese Relationen in der BoundingBox hat, obwohl
eigentlich gar kein Bestandteil im aktuellen Fenster drin ist.


 Auf die Idee, ein neues Tag zu erfinden, wäre ich nicht gekommen,
 weil ich einfach davon ausgegangen bin, dass weltweit schon einige
 Einrichtungen der Erwachsenenbildung getaggt sein müssten -
 wenn ich so etwas gefunden habe, war das meist artscentre (IIRC).


diese komischen Arts_centre, die es so wohl nur in England gibt, waren
als Feature schon seit sehr langer Zeit in OSM und wurden von den
Mappern daher für das Taggen diverser anderer Einrichtungen
missbraucht, weil sie noch am ehesten geeignet schienen ;-)


 Auf der deutschen Wiki-Seite zum Tag school
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:amenity%3Dschool

 findet sich am Ende ein Hinweis auf eine kontroverse Diskussion.
 Als Lösung wurde vorgeschlagen, für Bildungseinrichtungen, die
 Wissen außerhalb der klassischen Schulen vermitteln,
 amenity=education oder direkt education=* zu verwenden.


m.E. sind amenity=school allgemeinbildende Schulen, den Rest würde ich
anders taggen (und nicht bei einer Volkshochschule oder gar Fahrschule
erstmal sagen: das ist eine allgemeinbildende Schule, (und wer dann
den Subtag nicht auswertet für den ist das dann auch das Endergebnis)
und mit einem weiteren Tag dann: stimmt ja gar nicht, ist doch was
anderes.


 Dieses Tag gibt es jedoch (im Wiki) noch nicht. Dabei stammt
 die besagte Diskussion aus dem März 2010.


in der db gibt es auch erst 62:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=amenity%3Deducation#tags

sobald man das ins Wiki schreibt (bzw. ein Proposal macht, abstimmt,
etc.) wird das Zeug auch getaggt, sonst lassen die Leute halt erstmal
die Finger davon weil es noch keinen Tag gibt.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] amenity=education? //Re: VHS Außenstellen taggen // Re: OSM an der VHS - OSM-DVD

Am 22. Juni 2011 13:05 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
 in der db gibt es auch erst 62:
 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=amenity%3Deducation#tags


kleiner Nachtrag: in der education-Familie (als Keys) gibt es
allerdings schon ein paar mehr:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=education#keys

Gruß Martin

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[Talk-de] Bahnen in der Straße und Straßenbahnen (war: DE:zone)

Moin!

On 22.06.2011 10:08, Wolfgang wrote:
 Sachlich gesehen ist es so, dass auch die richtige Straßenbahn früher 
 Güterwagen auf den Straßen befördert hat. Außerdem ist in einigen Städten der 
 Übergang zwischen Straßenbahn und Eisenbahn fließend.

Ja, genau und deshalb wird halt auch mal railway=tram auf eine
vollwertige Gleisanlage getagged.
Es ging damals übrigens um den Ostuferhafen in Kiel:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=54.33358lon=10.17683zoom=17

 Aber so richtig intuitiv glücklich bin ich mit dem Tag für Industriegleise, 
 die in keinerlei Zusammenhang mit einer richtigen Straßenbahn stehen, auch 
 nicht.
 
 railway=commercial_conection  (WIrtschaftsanschlussgleis)
 railway=industrial_connection (Industrieanschlussgleis)
 railway=road_connection   (Straßenanschlussgleis)
 railway=road_connection_track (Straßenanschlussgleis)
 
 Was meint ihr?

Bloß nicht so viel Hauptkeys für gleich aufgebaute Gleise!
Auf http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:railway sieht man das die
meisten Keys die Gleisform beschreiben,
(gut für Mapper, das sieht man den Gleisen direkt an)
nur rail, tram und light_rail fallen aus aus diesem Schema heraus.
Diese Begriffe sind etwas schwammig, das sieht man schon an dem
verwendeten usually, normally und often.
Eigentlich wäre da soetwas wie railway=rail + usage=industrial;tram +
on_street=yes sinnvoller!
tram und light_rail hat wegen des identischen Gleiskörpers eigentlich
nichts im railway-Key zu suchen.

Grüße
phobie

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Re: [Talk-de] Bahnen in der Straße und Straßenbahnen (war: DE:zone)

Am 22. Juni 2011 14:22 schrieb phobie omlists.pho...@safersignup.com:
 tram und light_rail hat wegen des identischen Gleiskörpers eigentlich
 nichts im railway-Key zu suchen.


-1, das siehst Du schon am Wort Gleiskörper.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

2011-06-22 Thread fly

Hi

Zur allgemeinen Diskussion:
 1. Es gibt wohl Klärungsbedarf bei diesem Tag. (-Mailing-Listen)
 2. Massenedits sind ein Problem.
 3. Erste schritt sollte immer eine Mail an den/die BenutzerIn sein,
damit keine Streits - Kämpfe entstehen. Damit käme man wieder zu 1.

Ich finde es nicht gut Menschen an den Pranger zu stellen und die
Mailingliste mit Problemen zu konfrontieren, welche erstmal persönlich
geklärt/erörtert werden können.
Wenn dann noch olle Kamellen aus der Kiste gegraben werden, werde ich
als Leser wütend.

Ich hätte erwartet, daß Ihr beide diesem Problem erst einmal privat
kommuniziert, anscheinend kennt Ihr Euch ja schon. Auf jeden Fall, wäre
die einzige vernünftig Mail an diese Mailingliste eine mit Titel
Uneinheitliche Werte für source:maxspeed mit Erklärung der Problematik.

Am 22.06.2011 11:04, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
 Am 22. Juni 2011 03:55 schrieb phobie omlists.pho...@safersignup.com:
 Was das taggen von Fahrradstraßen mit highway=cycleway an geht:
 Soweit ich mich erinnern kann ging es vor 2 Jahren um 2 Fahrradstraßen
 in Kiel.
 Ich hatte das Tagging aber schnell wieder aufgegeben, weil es Konsens
 ist, dass highway nur den Ausbauzustand und nicht die Nutzung beschreibt.
 
 
 highway sollte eigentlich die Verbindungswichtigkeit (bei allgemeinen
 Straßen) bzw. den rechtlichen Status (z.B. bei Fuß-/Fahrrad-Wegen /
 Tracks, Autobahnen, etc.) wiedergeben. Der Ausbauzustand wird mit tags
 wie lanes, surface, tracktype, width festgehalten.
 
 
 Leider gibt es bis heute keinen Tag für Fahrradstraßen und das Rendering
 ist bis heute unbefriedigend.
 
 
 +1, ich war schon immer für highway=cycleroad (o.ä.) aber bisher (=in
 den letzten Jahren) war die Mehrheit dafür, das nicht zu machen.

das gehört in eine zusatz tag analog zu motorroad=yes.
Siehe auch:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle_road

highway=living_street würde ich auch als Unfall definieren und in
highway=* (meist residential) und living_street=yes konvertieren !

Ich setzte immer zusätzlich ein living_street=[highway] (residental).

 Zu tram:
 Ich kenne bis heute keine bessere Möglichkeit um zu beschreiben, das
 Bahnschienen in der Straße verlaufen.

Ist zwar nicht erlaubt funktioniert aber mit railway=* + highway=* an
einer Linie und ist ja auch richtig, da die Linie ja eben beides ist.

 note? Evtl. einen neuen Extratag, aber tram ist einfach was komplett
 anderes als eine Eisenbahn.
 
 
 Zu den Laderampen:
 industrielle Bahnen (Laderampen) haben jedenfalls mit public transport
 nichts zu tun.

+1

 Und aggressives Verhalten halte ich für nicht erstrebenswert.
 Ein editwar bringt uns auch nicht weiter.

+1

Bis bald fly

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Re: [Talk-de] Welches Navi und welche Karte für Pizzadienst?

2011-06-22 Thread Peter


Hi

Am 22.06.2011 13:02, schrieb Steffen Grunewald:


ein Bekannter denkt darüber nach, für einen Lieferservice als Fahrer
anzufangen.
Da er nicht alle Ecken der Stadt und des Umlandes kennt, braucht er
ein Navi und möglichst aktuelle Karten - und sprach mich an, weil ich
mich doch mit sowas auskenne.
OpenStreetMap ist klar, aber welche?
Die Kleineisel-Karte für Garmin scheint geeignet, weil Adressen in POIs
umgewandelt vorliegen.
Gibt es irgendwelche Alternativen? (Navigon? Medion? TomTom? Welche Karte?)
Oder sollte ich ihn auf den guten alten Stadtplan verweisen (in dem auch
nicht alle neu gebauten oder umbenannten Straßen drin sind...)?


Technisch kann ich nix empfehlen. Aber bisschen Labern geht immer:-)

Ich rate mal das die meisten Kunden 'ihren' Lieferservice haben.
Es gäbe dann nur relativ wenige Adressen die er anfahren muß, die
meisten sind immer gleich, bis auch die 'Laufkundschaft' oder seltene
Besteller.

Da ist es doch relativ einfach die Stammkundenadressen soweit sie
nicht eh' schon in OSM erfasst sind selbst (Kollegen, Chef) einzutragen.
Ein Tag 'note:Zugang links hinter der Mauer, 2tes Tor rechts'
macht das perfekt für seltsame Haus/Wohnungszugänge.

Das hat dann Vorteile für alle.


Weiterspinn ...
man könnte mal überlegen ob man das nicht allgemein als Spezialität
für Lieferanten anpreisen könnte.
   Was kann man mit OSM tolles anstellen
Was nahe der OSM Startseite, dort wo die Vorteile von offenen
Daten angepriesen werden.
Die Adressen die man öfter braucht kann man erfassen. Neue oder
Aushilfskräfte finden die Kunden dann sofort, einfach das Navi
in die Hand drücken.

Irgendwann bastelt einer eine iDroid-App ... hmm, Geschäftsidee.


Peter


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Re: [Talk-de] Bahnen in der Straße und Straßenbahnen (war: DE:zone)

2011-06-22 Thread Björn Bäuchle

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Äh, moment:

Am 22.06.2011 14:22, schrieb phobie:
 Moin!
 
 On 22.06.2011 10:08, Wolfgang wrote:
 Sachlich gesehen ist es so, dass auch die richtige Straßenbahn früher 
 Güterwagen auf den Straßen befördert hat. Außerdem ist in einigen Städten 
 der 
 Übergang zwischen Straßenbahn und Eisenbahn fließend.
Richtig ist: In KEINER Stadt ist der Übergang zwischen Straßenbahn und
Eisenbahn fließend. Immer gibt es einen Punkt (bzw einen recht kurzen
Abschnitt), an dem das eine aufhört und das andere beginnt. Maßgeblich
ist der Zuständigkeitsbereicht der EBO (Eisenbahn) oder BOStrab
(Straßenbahn). Hatten wir das nicht schonmal hier durchgekaut?

Grüße
Bjørn
- -- 
- 
Bjørn BäuchlePostDoc
Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies (FIAS)
Johann-Wolfgang-Goethe Universität   Raum 02|300
Ruth-Moufang-Straße 1  D-60438 Frankfurt am Main
http://fias.uni-frankfurt.de/~baeuchle  ++49 (69) 798 47 532
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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

2011-06-22 Thread Stephan Wolff


Moin Phobie!

Am 22.06.2011 03:55, schrieb phobie:

On 22.06.2011 01:37, Stephan Wolff (seawolff) wrote:

Dieser ist schon häufiger durch sehr eigenwillige Aktionen
aufgefallen


Man merkt in welche Schublade du mich gerne schieben möchtest.
Ich halte es für unangebracht dies nun auf talk-de zu verschieben.
Es kommt auch sehr komisch rüber nachdem du im März noch du machst gute
Arbeit für OSM. schriebst.


Entschuldigung, es sollte nicht so negativ klingen. Deine Arbeit bei der 
Detailerfassung z.B. von Militär- und Industriegebieten finde ich sehr 
wertvoll.
In machen Punkten interpretierst du die OSM-tags allerdings in 
ungewöhnlicher, dem Wiki widersprechender Weise und wendest diese 
Interpretation großflächig an. Das meinte ich mit eigenwillig.



Für die anderen Mitleser muss ich nun aber leider doch auf die oben
beschriebenen eigenwilligen Aktionen eingehen:
Zu tram:
Ich kenne bis heute keine bessere Möglichkeit um zu beschreiben, das
Bahnschienen in der Straße verlaufen.


Ich hatte die Frage hier angesprochen und niemand fand railway=tram 
zutreffend. Daraufhin habe ich einige Gleisstücke wieder auf 
railway=rail zurückgesetzt.



Zu den Laderampen:
Besser wäre wohl railway=disused + disused=stop + passengers=no gewesen.
Könnte man ja mal drüber reden, was du jetzt draus gemacht hast ist auf
jeden Fall kontraproduktiv.


Ich hatte nur public_transport=stop_position und railway=halt gelöscht. 
Diese Tags dienten offenbar nur dazu, die Darstellung durch Mapnik zu 
erreichen. Den POI mit den übrigen Tags hatte ich belassen (obwohl wir 
eigentlich nur noch vorhandene Dinge erfassen).

Güterladerampen werden üblicherweise nicht mit railway=stop bezeichnet.
Für zurückgebaute Strukturen ist auch disused unpassend.


Ansonsten lasse ich mich durchaus überzeugen (siehe Fahrradstraße) aber
nicht ohne Argumente.


Ich hatte das Problem der Fahrradstraßen ergebnislos mit dir diskutiert, 
dann eine Umfrage unter allen betroffenen Mappern gemacht, es hier in 
der Liste besprochen und erst danach geändert und dokumentiert. Später 
hattest du dich nochmals bei mir beklagt und wir haben nochmals 
diskutiert. So viel Überzeugungsarbeit kann ich nicht in jedem Fall 
leisten ;-) .


Viele Grüße
Stephan


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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

On 22.06.2011 11:04, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 Am 22. Juni 2011 03:55 schrieb phobie omlists.pho...@safersignup.com:
 Leider gibt es bis heute keinen Tag für Fahrradstraßen und das Rendering
 ist bis heute unbefriedigend.
 +1, ich war schon immer für highway=cycleroad (o.ä.) aber bisher (=in
 den letzten Jahren) war die Mehrheit dafür, das nicht zu machen.

Oder halt als Zusatzinformation mit cycleway=cycleroad .
Aber da scheint es wohl niemals eine Einigung zu geben... schade...


 Probleme mit dem Routing gab es niemals egal ob mit highway=cycleway
 oder highway=residential .
 doch, klar gibt es Probleme mit dem Routing, wenn man cycleway taggt
 (weil man Kfz damit aussperrt).

Wer auch immer sich ausgedacht haben mag das highway=cycleway das Tag
bicycle=designated implizieren sollte.
Vermutlich derjenige der sich auch bicycle=official ausgedacht hat...
Ich denke cycleway impliziert höchstens bicycle=yes aber sicher nicht
designated.

Bei Fahrradstraßen gab und gibt es mit residential/cycleway niemals
Probleme,
weil die access-Keys für andere Fahrzeuge immer explizit getagged wurden.

Z.B. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/47516724


 Zu tram:
 Ich kenne bis heute keine bessere Möglichkeit um zu beschreiben, das
 Bahnschienen in der Straße verlaufen.

 note?

Eine Information in note=* zu verschieben ist im Endeffekt das verwerfen
dieser Information.
Es gibt kein Tag das sich schlechter automatisiert auswerten ließe.

 Evtl. einen neuen Extratag, aber tram ist einfach was komplett
 anderes als eine Eisenbahn.

Ach ja?
Wie passen Stadt-Regional-Bahnen in das Schema?


 Daher wäre es aber auch nicht schlecht gewesen, so was wie Deine
 versuchte Vereinheitlichung vorher mal kurz hier anzusprechen.

Wie du weißt mappe ich nicht gerade wenig, wenn ich für alles vorher um
Erlaubnis beten müsste würde ich zu nichts mehr kommen.
Da die meisten Sachen niemandem auf die Füße treten ist es sinnvoller
einfach zu mappen und zu gucken ob sich jemand (wie hier) beschwert.
Unpassend war eigentlich nur der Rundumschlag von Stephan.


 In der
 Sache halte ich es für ziemlich egal, ob in source:maxspeed zone,
 zone:30, oder DE:zone steht, solange in maxspeed die richtige
 Höchstgeschwindigkeit eingetragen ist, ein Rückändern ist daher m.E.
 auch mehr history-spam als hilfreich.

Hauptsache die beiden Tags werden immer zusammen gesetzt, falls man
Zahlen in maxspeed schreibt.


Grüße
phobie


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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

Am 22. Juni 2011 14:43 schrieb fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com:
 +1, ich war schon immer für highway=cycleroad (o.ä.) aber bisher (=in
 den letzten Jahren) war die Mehrheit dafür, das nicht zu machen.

 das gehört in eine zusatz tag analog zu motorroad=yes.


-1, warum? Gehört highway=pedestrian auch in einen Zusatztag? Und
highway=cycleway? Es ist eine eigene Klasse, und daher gehört es auch
in keinen Zusatztag.


 highway=living_street würde ich auch als Unfall definieren und in


ich nicht. Warum sollte das ein Fehler gewesen sein?


 highway=* (meist residential) und living_street=yes konvertieren !


Warum? Was ist der Vorteil?


 Ich setzte immer zusätzlich ein living_street=[highway] (residental).


jeder kann ja taggen, wie er will, aber m.E. erzeugst Du damit nur
unnötige Redundanzen...


 Zu tram:
 Ich kenne bis heute keine bessere Möglichkeit um zu beschreiben, das
 Bahnschienen in der Straße verlaufen.

 Ist zwar nicht erlaubt funktioniert aber mit railway=* + highway=* an
 einer Linie und ist ja auch richtig, da die Linie ja eben beides ist.


wenn die Richtung der Straße dieselbe ist wie die der Schienen ist es
m.E. richtig, wenn wir aber von einer Kreuzung sprechen, dann fahren
keine Autos auf den Schienen in Schienenrichtung, und dann halte ich
ein highway=* auch für ungeeignet.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Bahnen in der Straße und Straßenbahnen (war: DE:zone)

2011-06-22 Thread Wolfgang

Hallo,
Am Mittwoch 22 Juni 2011 14:41:14 schrieb Björn Bäuchle:

 
 Richtig ist: In KEINER Stadt ist der Übergang zwischen Straßenbahn und
 Eisenbahn fließend. Immer gibt es einen Punkt (bzw einen recht kurzen
 Abschnitt), an dem das eine aufhört und das andere beginnt. Maßgeblich
 ist der Zuständigkeitsbereicht der EBO (Eisenbahn) oder BOStrab
 (Straßenbahn). Hatten wir das nicht schonmal hier durchgekaut?
 

Ich mappe, was ich sehe. Und wenn ich ein Gleis finde, an das weder die EBO 
noch die BOStrab genagelt ist, ist das erst mal ein Gleis. Damit ist der 
Übergang für mich fließend oder besser fahrend, wenn es einen gibt.

:-)

Gruß, Wolfgang

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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone


Hallo,

On 06/22/11 11:33, Walter Nordmann wrote:

Wir haben klare Regeln, was Bulk-Uploads betrifft und ich bin der Meinung,
dass diese hier auch gelten:


Ja. Ganz unabhaengig vom konkreten Fall, den ich mir nicht angeschaut 
habe, will ich das nochmal bekraeftigen. Diese verschaerften Regeln 
gelten fuer alles, was in irgendeiner Weise mechanisch/algorithmisch ist.


Das heisst, die Mapper haben bei uns nach wie vor weitgehend 
(Narren)Freiheit und koennen die Sachen, die sie erfassen oder 
aktualisieren, so taggen, wie sie wollen.


Aber jeder, der mit Xapi oder auch nur der Editor-Suchfunktion ein such 
alles, fuer dass X gilt, und tagge es mit Y durchfuehrt, der ist schon 
auf dem automatisierte Edits-Ticket, und von dem wird erwartet, dass 
er seine Ideen vorher diskutiert.


Der Grund dafuer ist, dass man mit solchen Methode viel mehr und 
grossflaechiger Schaden anrichten und Leute veraergern kann, als wenn 
man einfach nur in seinem Dorf vor sich hin mappt.


Mir ist klar, dass sich viele nicht daran halten. Aber wer sich da nicht 
dran haelt, der darf sich auch nicht wundern, wenn andere dann was zu 
meckern haben ;)


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone

Moin!

On 22.06.2011 11:51, Schorschi wrote:
 sagen wir mal, es war die Art und Weise, die Anstoß erregte ... im Wiki 
 eine klare sachliche Aussage (dass DE:zone:30 eben redundanter ist als 
 DE:zone) mit der Bemerkung nicht NPOV zu revertieren, ist ziemlich 
 unglücklich, denn die Bemerkung, dass etwas redundant ist, ist sachlich 
 und damit eben NPOV. Ich habe das (ohne die angemeckerte Bemerkung) wieder 
 eingetragen.

Ja, wenn man es so sieht ist es unglücklich.
Mit NPOV meinte ich den Satz This approach is fully compatible...
Das hatte also mit DE:zone gar nichts zu tun.


 Ich werde Stück für Stück bei entsprechenden Bearbeitungen die Redundanzen 
 einfach wieder rausschmeißen, es sei denn jemand anderes ist hier noch der 
 Meinung, die erhöhte Redundanz wäre sinnvoll.

Ich wäre ja eher dafür es dann lieber ganz zu entfernen.
Es ging mir ja von Anfang an nur um eine Vereinheitlichung, bei der
keine Daten verloren gehen.


 ich glaube nicht, dass ich hier groß als Labertasche auffalle ... darum 
 geht es also nicht. In meinen Augen wurde die Qualität der Daten bei 
 deiner Aktion nicht erhöht.

Bei DE:zone vs. DE:zone:zahl magst du ja recht haben.
Aber durch das Entfernen von zone oder de:zone sicherlich.

Grüße
Per

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Re: [Talk-de] DE:zone