Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
Am 06.12.2010 09:46, schrieb Jacques Lys: Hello, In fact, PT data are most often seen by agencies as being critical data they have to protect while submitting tender for Delegation de Service Public. I expected the timetables to be organized by a government supervisory body, with only the bus lines being awarded to the winner of an auction. That's how it is west of Rhine (which is, of course, not necessarily better). Such a body is easier to approach with an offer to share the timetable. -- Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, Michał Borsuk ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
Ok, finally someone that really knows the case! so. First, if it is like that, then a proper authorization to use the timetables and routes, one by one, granted by veolia, keolis and transdev would do for a great amount of pt companies in france. Correct? I happen to have contacted veolia's director of developpement and innovation, who, verbally, i know, told me that no o'e would ever oppose me, at least in veolia, for taking these timetables, one by one, from all subsidiary transporters' sites. The same for routes. If i cannot trust this kind of saying...then, who can i trust? For more technical details, i will send you another email, as i'm still better in french than in english, especially for such technical language... but thank you for someone from french pt answering, at last! Le lundi 6 décembre 2010, Jacques Lys jacq...@famille-lys.com a écrit : Hello, I'm afraid you're wrong : Transit data are generally not freely available in France.You should know that legally, PT are the responsibility of local authorities. In fact these authorities entrust the operation of PT networks to companies which are often subsidiaries of three major groups (Keolis, Transdev and Veolia ... soon 2 because Transdev and Veolia are expected to merge!) through Delegations de Service Public (Delegations of Public Service) concluded for a fixed period (often 10 years). In fact, PT data are most often seen by agencies as being critical data they have to protect while submitting tender for Delegation de Service Public. Contrary to what you seem to believe, nobody enjoys 'nice governmental jobs' in French PT (almost all agencies are under common law...) and it's not by simple jealousy that employees wanting to protect their jobs refuse to submit data! Fortunately, for some time, the trend seems to be in setting PT data free : local authorities are more and more seeing themselves as the PT data owners and some of them are planning to make those data freely available to the public. That is what comes just to be done in Rennes (Brittany), where the Communauté d'Agglomération Rennes-Métropole recently proposed data in GTFS format (http://www.nosdonnees.fr/package/donnees-transport-rennes-metropole). The times they are a-Changin', even in France ! Cordialement. Jacques LysOpenStreetMap Contributor IT Manager in a French Transit Agency ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
Am 06.12.2010 14:54, schrieb Andrei Klochko: Hi, That is simply not true. I know what I am doing. I would like to believe it as well, but as I know copyright laws (not of France, but of other countries), to me it also sounds weird. What I could suggest is to have an official, written advice of a legal firm that what you want to do is indeed legal. What we simply find strange is that France would leave such a loophole. It is specifically closed in the legal systems of most other countries by stating non-sequential reading of records, not leading to the copying of the entire database. And reading all timetables DOES NOT constitute a recreation of a database, because you are indeed doing a sequential copying. It does not matter how you process the data, the sequential reading is important. Again, this is how it is defined in many countries, but perhaps not in France. Stay cautious. Ask another lawyer? Greetings, and good luck. -- Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, Michał Borsuk ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
Good evening, i admit it, I know almost nothing about law. I focused on database, intellectual property law. These texts are quite small. I know my interpretation has no value, which is why I just spent 1h and a half talking to yet another lawyer. And what he told me was this: in one sentence, I am om the cutting edge of law. Which means, he cannot say for certain, wether someone attacking me on this, would win or not. But according to him, if I could go to each bus stop, take a picture of the timetables on the stop, and then, extract the information to incorporate it in my database, while keeping the photo as a proof that I did not use any electronic (internet) means to access easily a work that took time to gather, then I should be on my right, as I really spent time and effort to gather again the same information. Concerning my former assesment, about small databases, I admit I was not clear enough: First, let us consider the case, of a unique, all alone transport company, not owned by any big group, and that would operate 10 lines (say). The *creation* of each timetable, I mean the choice of the times and frequencies, is a real work: for this, the company spends time. Nonetheless, a timetable, as a production of spirit being heavily constrained by a definite industrial objective (functionment of their lines), it does not bear a mark of its author's personnality, and as such, is not protected by pure copyright (droit d'auteur), as would be a book or poem. Moreover, this data is not secret, as it is provided to the public. Which means, every one has the right to download ONE timetable alone, and put it on its site. Then, the question is only about the *gathering* of existing timetables together, so as to make a database. And this small company, has only ten lines, which means the database, as a structure containing data that is not individually copyrightable (one timetable is freely downloadable, as I said earlier), would only be a structure *containing 10 pdf files*. As such, the gathering of 10 pdf files, may (I know, I still have to prove it) be a work, that needed few enough investment, so as not to be considered to be protected by pure *database copyright*. In this way, it is *possible* that someone might have the right to download the entire set of timetables of one single, small company. Now, if you consider the real world, there are big transport agencies, like transdev, who own 100% of several smaller agencies, which are the real operators of the local transports. These small agencies, have produced timetables, that you can access either directly on a bus stop, either on their web site. On the other hand, obviously, the big corporation (transdev, or veolia, or anything else), does have, on its side, a big database that gathers all timetables of its filials. But if, by chance, they created this database starting from data provided to them by the filials (and not the opposite, transdev creating the database and then give the different timetables to its filials), then the source of their database are the filials. Which means that, if I go to every flial and take the timetables that concern only their lines, and from their, small site, then I fall back to the case mentioned above, where it would be just as if I took these timetables from a small, standalone company. As transdev - or any other big company holding these small operators - would have made its database from the same sources as me, we would only have the same sources, one would not be copying the other. So wether their database exist or not, is none of my concern, then. I really recreated it from small enough sources. I fractionned the imports directly to the sources of the data. Is more clear this way? I know I still have to check, and re-check, and triple check, and ultimately I think I will have to take the risk. As I saw, many sites emerged from openstreetmap data. What I would like to do, is not to bind openstreetmap with my risks. I would make my own site, only use data from openstreetmap underneath my transit data, to support it, and say clearly, if necessary, that my database recreating activities have nothing to do with openstreetmap, so the project would be safe. Is that possible? And about the ask a lawyer phrase, this is what I am doing, every single day between monday and friday, since last week. I really want to know what I would be up to. So, ok, I know personnaly nothing of civil law, but still, I'm doing my best to learn. All what I said was only with that point of view. And I understand only experienced lawyers can fill the blanks in my elaborations about law, and tell me where I am wrong. But by saying all what I'm saying here, I am only trying to see if anyone else have had similar thoughts, and if anyone can help me. That's all... Regards Andrei 2010/12/6 Michał Borsuk michal.bor...@gmail.com Am 06.12.2010 15:26, schrieb Andrei Klochko: Hello, Yes, in France it's even worse: the database producer may
Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
On 12/06/2010 05:07 PM, Michał Borsuk wrote: Am 06.12.2010 15:26, schrieb Andrei Klochko: Hello, Yes, in France it's even worse: the database producer may forbid any quantitatively or quantitatively substantial extraction from his database, by all means and in any form BUT you have this counterpart: when a database is made available to the public by the holder of the rights, then he cannot forbid [among other things] the extraction AND reuse of a quantitatively or qualitatively non substantial part of the database, by the person who has licit access to it. So after all us, the grumpy old men, were right. I only put this line here, to ask the question: what, if many different people, decide to all take one timetable, and then reuse it as they want, like for example, by publishing it in a centralized site? Then this is the wrong group. Ask a lawyer! Indeed talk-legal may be the more suitable list for such discussions. As for database copyright, I can tell you the situation here in Italy (and I would expect the situation to be somewhat similar throughout the European Union): Database copyright applies to databases in any form, even non-electronic (think printed telephone books), though I'm not completely sure about how non-trivial a database has to be in order to be copyrightable. In any case, the copyright extends to any substantial extraction of data (again what is substantial is not well-defined and may be a gray area). Even if it's done in tiny bits, one record at a time, as soon as these are put together again, they will become substantial as soon as enough data is gathered (IANAL, the interpretation is my own). However, let's assume the following: * Public transport companies have a database of all their stops, lines, timetables etc. (Organizations that have existed for decades might originally have kept this information on paper, but as we have seen before, even this may legally be a database.) * That database was created beforehand, only after that were the stops built and lines entered into service. * Hence, the fact that there is a stop, its name, location, lines and all the rest are all data derived from that company's database. * As a result, even mapping bus stops (let alone lines) would be a breach of copyright unless *either* we have permission from the company *or* it turns out that the original database is not copyrightable for some reason. The same may apply to other fields of OSM, such as information on street names. In their case, however, the decision to name a street in a certain way is a legal act or regulation and, as such, cannot be copyrighted in many countries. Public transport infrastructure may or may not be a similar case. In fact I remember that at one of the last SOTMs (2009 or 2010 I believe) there was a lawyer talking about the legality of mapping streets and others, and the key message was: It's a gray area, but don't let that discourage you from mapping. Here the data is made publicly available...and if the transporters are the ultimate producers of the data, then taking it from every transporter is only copying THEIR database, which is not big enough to make a database. You see? No, I don't. The catch is that the aggregation of these single databases may constitute sufficient effort to qualify as a new database. On a different note: have you taken a look at Transiki yet? In case you haven't, it's Steve Coast's second child after OSM and their goal is just that - to make public transport timetables freely available. You might want to get in touch with them - they seem to have an idea similar to yours and are still in their beginnings, maybe you can join forces. Michael ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Again about time tables, and some interesting sites
Thank you for your answer. Indeed, it is almost impossible to prove you indeed have the right to do anything, in the geographical data area. But to answer to your idea of even bus stops physical locations being copyrighted, we have the following story, that every lawyer in france takes back: *consider a single person, phoning to every number he can dial randomly. *if he manages to get names and adresses of answering people - which is utmost unlikely, but just suppose it *then he recreated the phone book from scratch, and no one will be able to sue him, if not for collection and keeping of personal data, which is not the case for our bus stops. Which means, wandering around in a city, and noting all bus stops, and noting what is written on them, could be considered rebuilding public data from scratch, and as such, not fall under database copyright. But Michał is right, I have to stop messing with this list, for purely legal questions. I will continue asking lawyers, etc... And about transiki, yes I know about them, I am on their mailing list. But neither transiki nor OSM would take the risk to do what I am trying to do here, finding ways to bypass database right, because it would be stupid to gamble such big projects on slippery legal questions. I, on the other side, will maybe be ready to take the risk, once I know more. And if this is to be the first juridic case about this *precise question*, then so be it. But at last, we will know for sure, then. And I am not going to throw myself with no warranty: I intend to prepare my weapons, for this fight. This is way I keep thinking standalone. But nonetheless, this will not keep me from contributing to transiki, of course. Transiki may be the proper, open-licensed version of Google transit, but my version will be the dirty and hopefully, fast-made, version. What I would like, is that random users, without even learning how to use Potlatch or JOSM, without having to know anything about legal terms, would just upload timetables and plans, and if I manage to do it, an internal utility on my site will try to interpretate the timetables and plans, to extract the needed data from them; and then the user will only have to correct what is wrong. Think of dailymotion processing a video you just updated. Wouldn't it be good? Of course, this supposes huge work I am very probably absolutely not aware of, but still, why not just go and try it? The point is, about asking companies, I know a company, that is so greedy to keep its data, that isn't even featured on itransports.fr, the site referencing more of 80% of French PT data. They simply won't listen to anyone. And I know this will not be the only company to do so. And I am not going to gather 100 mobs to go and sit there in front of their buildings for three days to at last obtain their ** paper. This is why I wanted so much to find a way to bypass these companies that block entire geographical sectors of PT maps. When you break a chain, the whole chain becomes useless. And if such companies break the chain of transportation, then my site will be useless. This is why I am craving so much for a legal way, even a little unstable, to bypass all of this. The fact is, as many people told me, sometimes they don't even know who holds the rights over this data! But thank you for all your answers. I will try to find someone that will answer these questions, on the legal-talk. I already been to legal-talk, asked, but got very few really detailed answers. I will try again, now. Greetings Andrei 2010/12/6 Michael von Glasow mich...@vonglasow.com On 12/06/2010 05:07 PM, Michał Borsuk wrote: Am 06.12.2010 15:26, schrieb Andrei Klochko: Hello, Yes, in France it's even worse: the database producer may forbid any quantitatively or quantitatively substantial extraction from his database, by all means and in any form BUT you have this counterpart: when a database is made available to the public by the holder of the rights, then he cannot forbid [among other things] the extraction AND reuse of a quantitatively or qualitatively non substantial part of the database, by the person who has licit access to it. So after all us, the grumpy old men, were right. I only put this line here, to ask the question: what, if many different people, decide to all take one timetable, and then reuse it as they want, like for example, by publishing it in a centralized site? Then this is the wrong group. Ask a lawyer! Indeed talk-legal may be the more suitable list for such discussions. As for database copyright, I can tell you the situation here in Italy (and I would expect the situation to be somewhat similar throughout the European Union): Database copyright applies to databases in any form, even non-electronic (think printed telephone books), though I'm not completely sure about how non-trivial a database has to be in order to be copyrightable. In any case, the copyright extends to any substantial extraction of
[OSM-talk-be] trunk crossroads and cyclerouting
Hi all, At http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.86777mlon=4.678712zoom=18layers=M a small junction way http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/8288162 exists between the two parts of the Koning Boudewijnlaan (or Celestijnenlaan as you wish :-) This way is currently tagged as trunk_link http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Link_(highway). However, (at least in Belgium) trunk roads are prohibited for bicycles. Indeed, if you try to create the shortest cycle route from Celestijnenlaan (South) to Celestijnenlaan (North), you end up with http://www.openrouteservice.org/index.php?start=4.6797122,50.8671213end=4.6779527,50.8683266pref=Bicyclelang=denoMotorways=falsenoTollways=false. So it seems like trunk_link ways are also bicycles prohibited. Does anyone have a suggestion/thought on how to fix this? - Changing trunk_link into primary_link seems weird (and only solves the problem locally) - Altering the bicycles prohibited behaviour of trunk_link sections seems to be an option, but I don't know if this is the best thing to do and whom to contact for that? - Creating a separate cycleway might solve the problem locally (and temporarily) but not in other places where the issue might exist. Better suggestions welcome. Thx Klaas ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] trunk crossroads and cyclerouting
Hi, I think the road is wrong classified. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/8288162 It should be residential and part of the Celestijnenlaan and not trunk_link http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/72912809 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/3877191 Because that is what it is there: a crossing between the Celestijnenlaan and the trunk of Koning Boudewijnlaan. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/16771612 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/17773075 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23832344 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/73579618 As trunk_link it would link two trunks, which has no sense there. Maybe add also the traffic signals on the two crosspoints http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/16571335 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/18232318 Regards, Gerard Klaas Gadeyne wrote: Hi all, At http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.86777mlon=4.678712zoom=18layers=M a small junction way http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/8288162 exists between the two parts of the Koning Boudewijnlaan (or Celestijnenlaan as you wish :-) This way is currently tagged as trunk_link http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Link_(highway). However, (at least in Belgium) trunk roads are prohibited for bicycles. Indeed, if you try to create the shortest cycle route from Celestijnenlaan (South) to Celestijnenlaan (North), you end up with http://www.openrouteservice.org/index.php?start=4.6797122,50.8671213end=4.6779527,50.8683266pref=Bicyclelang=denoMotorways=falsenoTollways=false. So it seems like trunk_link ways are also bicycles prohibited. Does anyone have a suggestion/thought on how to fix this? - Changing trunk_link into primary_link seems weird (and only solves the problem locally) - Altering the bicycles prohibited behaviour of trunk_link sections seems to be an option, but I don't know if this is the best thing to do and whom to contact for that? - Creating a separate cycleway might solve the problem locally (and temporarily) but not in other places where the issue might exist. Better suggestions welcome. Thx Klaas ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] layer probleempje
Gerard, net ook de josm upgrade gedaan en met de bing assistentie is het effectief bijzonder prettig werken Op 3 december 2010 16:08 heeft Gerard Vanderveken g...@ghia.eu het volgende geschreven: Nu Bing ook in mijn JOSM beschikbaar is als satelliet achtergrond (zie Bing thread), heb ik eens een blik geworpen op je probleem. Met bing.com/maps en tilt view can je ook vanuit zijwaartse richtingen kijken en daar lijkt mij die hele parking op een soort dam/viaduct te liggen. jap, het is een oude viaduct, sinds paar jaar herbestemd als parking Wat eerst opvalt is de geringe precisie voor ligging en loop van de straten (Er was blijkbaar veel wind en de satellieten hingen scheef :-D ). Het fietspad ligt vrij goed. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/81059334 De opgaande weg ligt er normaal vlak naast. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/81059339 Maar op de kaart wordt dat een tiental meter, wat teveel is. ja, dat was me ook opgevallen, maar ik hou me doorgaans op bestaande nodes van anderen nogal straf in (ben ook nog maar net begonnen in josm, en zonder de sat-pics) Er is natuurlijk wel een zekere afstand tussen, want de mapping gebeurt as naar as, dus halve straatbreedte plus halve padbreedte. De weg staat nu als highway= residential, maar ik zou misschien eerder kiezen voor highway= service en het fietspad daar niet apart maar als cycleway:right =track. dank voor de tip, er ligt ook nog een voetpad langs trouwens, dat wordt dan ook nog een footway=right? verderopn (voorbij de parking) lopen fiets-en voet-pad trouwens gewoon door over het oude traject van de weg waar ook de tram nog rijdt (wagens kunnen niet meer verder) en ik vind net ook dit: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Cycleways (de 'appropriate barrier' is in dit geval vooral de verhoging van het fietspad tov het wegdek, niet echt 1m afstand dus) Naast de aflopende weg ligt er eigenlijk nog gedeeltelijk een derde weg die nog niet gemapt is. en ook vooral als extra parking gebruikt in de praktijk De Parking ligt binnen de twee wegen. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/86989968 klopt, herbestemming dus van de oude middenberm + linkerrijstroken in beide richtingen Omdat nu de drie wegen elk apart een brug lijken te hebben, zou ik er eerder voor kiezen om de hele oppervlakte als parking (of is er een betere tag om een open ruimte/plein aan te geven) aan te duiden, met daarop de wegen, allen in layer 1. De onderliggende weg , Slachthuiskaai zou ik op layer 0 als tunnel aangeven op zijn lengte (20m). goed idee, ik kijk ernaar (een dezer) bedankt voor de tip. (mental note to self: de one-way in de tunnel niet vergeten) http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/81059342 en ook de andere wegen die er verderop onderdoor lopen, zoals de spoorweg en de weg naar de terminal. De resulterende kaart zal mi. dan korrekter kunnen worden geinterpreteerd. Het is logisch dat de trap vedwijnt in de rendering, want zijn lengte is veel te kort (nu 5 meter). http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/86960775 Als ik zie op satelliet, dan is zijn lengte minstens 10 meter, (logisch ook, daar hij een hoogte van 5-6 meter maakt en ook nog twee platformen bevat), daarbij loopt hij over een voetpad tot aan de as van de weg, wat ook nog eens 5 meter maakt. Dus hij is drie keer langer dan gemapt. mijn fout, denk dat ik me vooral laten misleiden heb door de weg die (nu via bing duidelijk) te hoog naar het noorden ligt, de combo met mijn gps track heeft me wat oneigenlijk doen schipperen denk ik ik kijk het in alle geval mee na straks Er is blijkbaar nog een reliek van een knooppunt http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1012467813 Te wissen? lijkt me idd het geval Voor de Kusttram is er een brug gemaakt http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/26469322 die het huidige traject verdubbelt. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/68610996 Dit moet ingepast worden. Dit is ook het geval met http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/59211807 en http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/68610999 en http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/68610997 Ik attendeer BDROEGE met PM op deze situatie. http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/BDROEGE hij/zij heeft ondertussen al een en ander aangepast merk ik http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/6538707 een dezer ga ik dan zelf met bing in de hand ook nog je suggesties van hierboven toevoegen. Apropos, je vermeld met PM zo terloops dat het klinkt alsof ik zou moeten weten wat dat betekent :-) (wat niet het geval is, sorry) Als beginner leer ik graag bij, alvast bedankt. groetjes, -marc= mvg Gerard. 2010/11/29 Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com Marc Portier wrote: Ben, bedankt voor het antwoord, logische opvolgvraag: Weten wat we (nu) weten, wordt het doorgaans aangeraden ons daarvan aan te trekken en door cosmetische veranderingen de rendering iets vollediger/juister te krijgen Nee, het motto dat
Re: [OSM-talk-be] trunk crossroads and cyclerouting
On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:41:25 +0100, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: I usually tag these small ways between two lanes of a dual carriage road with the same classification of the crossing roads, in this case highway=unclassified. But there's no strict rule on this AFAIK, even though we could really use one... Tag it according to the traffic that runs over it. If the crossing road is a residential road, tag the part between the two carriageways as residential. Is it a cycleway, tag it as cycleway. I think the basic rule can be made as such: if a way crosses another way, do not change the tagging to match the crossing way. So the example Klaas gave is IMHO an example of incorrect tagging. Maarten ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] trunk crossroads and cyclerouting
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 12:41 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: Klaas Gadeyne wrote: This way is currently tagged as trunk_link http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Link_(highway). However, (at least in Belgium) trunk roads are prohibited for bicycles. Well, yes and no. Yes for 99% of trunks in Belgium, but there are exceptions, particularly at crossroads where one wouldn't downgrade small pieces of road. Take for example a crossing between two dual carriage roads, one trunk, the other primary: you wouldn't split the trunk at the crossing to downgrade it on that little bit to primary. I wouldn't use links for these bits either: links are primarily for ramps (op- en afritten) to the road, like those on motorways. So it seems like trunk_link ways are also bicycles prohibited. Does anyone have a suggestion/thought on how to fix this? - Changing trunk_link into primary_link seems weird (and only solves the problem locally) I usually tag these small ways between two lanes of a dual carriage road with the same classification of the crossing roads, in this case highway=unclassified. But there's no strict rule on this AFAIK, even though we could really use one... (Also, preferably keep this little way as a separate way, i.e. don't join with the crossing roads) I'm not sure I understand you, unless you've made a typo: With crossing roads, I assumed you meant the Celestijnenlaan (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/72912809 and northern counterpart). However, these both are tagged as residential (and not as unclassified)?? [*] (Note: Tagging the small way as residential seems also the solution Gerard suggests in his reply) [snip section about possibly adding other tags] Regards, Klaas [*] In fact, you are partly right in the sense that way 72912809 (in fact the whole Celestijnenlaan south of Koning Boudewijnlaan) shouldn't be tagged as residential, as it's full of university buildings and companies... ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Someone already had a look at the Bing Terms of Use?
I feel that it is not safe at this point. I have raised my concerns in this thread http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2010-December/005299.html On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Manuel Reimer manuel.s...@nurfuerspam.de wrote: Hello, is it secure to use Bing? Any license risks? Could Microsoft, at some day, just force us to remove everything with source=Bing on it? Am I forced to have this source tag there? Should stuff, taken from Bing, be verified via GPS track at some time to get the data secure? One risk, which definetly exists, is that Microsoft rejects their offer at some time, so if there is no risk in using the data, I would start to use it to complete several things in my area (buildings, landuse, ) as long as the data is still available for OSM. Yours Manuel ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Someone already had a look at the Bing Terms of Use?
Andrew, Manuel - On 12/06/2010 10:28 AM, Andrew Harvey wrote: I feel that it is not safe at this point. I have raised my concerns in this thread http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2010-December/005299.html The situation is sufficient for me to use Bing imagery for tracing. I'm not looking at the legal side of it, I'm just looking at the size of the PR disaster should Microsoft attempt to backtrack in any way. PR is more important than legal. As most people on this list know, with CC-BY-SA being next to invalid for Geodata in the US, any of the big US players could long have taken our data an run. Why haven't they? Because they fear a PR disaster. But luckily this is something that everyone can decide for themselves - if you're happy with the situation, start tracing; if you're not, then don't. There's enough mapping to be done without reliance to Bing images. Bye Frederik ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Someone already had a look at the Bing Terms of Use?
On 12/06/2010 10:18 AM, Andrew Harvey wrote: I suppose I don't mind if a license is technically invalid because of some obscure legal reason, I just think that the intent needs to be there, publicly, officially, and clearly stated on what they are okay with and what they aren't. I don't think the Bing people have clearly stated what they consider acceptable and what they don't. You can use the Bing map tiles in OSM editors and contribute the results to OSM: Microsoft is pleased to announce the royalty-free use of the Bing Maps Imagery Editor API, allowing the Open Street Map community to use Bing Maps imagery via the API as a backdrop to your OSM map editors. Another potential problem I see with Bing is, as far as I could tell, this grant is only for OpenStreetMap. Does their permission extend to other people who then use the OSM database? I feel this needs to be made clear. Once it's in the OSM DB, it's under OSM's control thanks to the CTs, so there are no downstream issues caused by the data coming from Bing. - Rob. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, pec...@gmail.com wrote: License is fine. It is CT which in fact still allows OSMF to change data license to any other free license (which could be strip share alike and attribution requirements) what blocks usage. In fact, there is NO license which allows such CT to coexist. Only PD, and that's even not working in all countries. I'm sure that if, at any time in the future, the OSM license needs to be changed, it will be into something that works in all countries. We don't know if it will ever be necessary; we don't know what that license might be; we don't even know which countries will be around then and what their legal systems will look like. Think long-term! This is not a clause aimed at next year. I know that ODbL team talked about changing description of free license, but I don't see any official statements about that. I'm afraid that PDists got their way all over again. ODbL is not a PD license, so you do not have to be afraid. As for the distant future - we don't know who will be in OSM then, what their preferences will be, and wheter you and I will be alive then. I think it is ok to let those who *then* run OSM decide, instead of trying to force onto them what we today think is right. I think the problem with this idea is that it opens the door for carpetbaggers[1]. The purpose of share-alike licenses is to prevent the freeness of people's contributions from *ever* being hijacked. I, for one, certainly want to ensure that whoever runs OSM at some indeterminate point in the future can not pervert the principle on which I made my contributions. Anything less is unacceptable and is disrespectful to those who built OSM in the first place. 80n [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger#United_Kingdom And legal-talk is that way --- Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Database right for public transport
Hello, first, to put things clear, I know of Transiki, I know of Google Transit obviously, I know of OSMand, and I know - a little - about database copyright in France. I already asked several lawyers about my questions, without it resulting in any clear answer. And no, what I intend to do will not be linked to OSM, I will create a separate dite on which OSM would only feature as the provider of purely geographical data. And also, this site I may make myself will not prevent me, on another end, to contribute to the more proper Transiki. But still, I have this dirty idea, that I would like to try. My question is not about trying to naively copy everything, it is more about trying to find a way so that I more recreate than copy things. My question is this: Starting which point, the whole set of timetables of a single, standalone transit agency, would constitute a protectable database according to French Law, in the way that it needed substantial efforts, either materialy, financially or in terms of personel, to be created? By created, I also intend that the only work directly tight to the creation of a database, is the gathering of information, not its creation (i will come back to that point later on). On another end, I know transit agencies are hardly on their own in the real world, but the thinking behind this is that, if, and only if, I can copy or reproduce, in any way, including taking pictures of bus stops, the whole set of timetables a *small* transit agency, then wether these timetables were gathered *afterwards*(after their creation by the small transit agency, and put onto their small site) into a bigger database, by either the big company owning the small one, or by the public authority compiling timetables of all the transit agencies of whom it has the charge, is none of my concern: in this case, we would only be gathering data *from the same source*. Of course, if it happens that the transit agencies only propose unfinished timetables either to the public authority or to their parent company, and that it is the authority/parent company that finishes all timetables of many small agencies, then these timetables would directly be part of their personal database, and then, taking these timetables, by any mean, would probably be copying their database. The point behind that is that there may be a way, along which it would not be easy for transport agencies to ever prove that a site indeed made unauthorized copy of a *protected *database. If a set of 10 timetables is possible to copy, then when you copy timetables from a single transit agency site, you would only copy THEIR small database, and if the investment they made into gathering timetable information - I insist on the term *gathering, *not *creating* - then the copy of all their timetables would not be forbidden; and if one would copy like that all timetables from all the small transit agencies he can, and if by doing this he recreates the timetable database of some big transport authority or parent company, then who cares, as he only recreated the database from the same source as did this big entity. This could maybe be a way to do a quick-and-dirty transit map, and see if anyone manages to prove that there was something illegal in it. I know this kind of project may sound quite risky, which is why I will do everything possible to cut all responsibility off Openstreetmap, which I think is not difficult as Openstreetmap staff would have nothing to do with my future standalone site, and also, I am not going into that without preparing the terrain, which is why I am right now consulting so many lawyers to get a better picture of what is ahead me, and readying my strategy, to avoid trouble. Any advice on such an entreprise? Thanks Andrei ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Database right for public transport
On 6 December 2010 20:57, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, [snip] strategy, to avoid trouble. Any advice on such an entreprise? I'm not sure that this is really on topic for this list since it doesn't impact legally on open street map (or it shouldn't). Its also the kind of thing you should talk to a lawyer, preferably a French lawyer, about rather than asking for advice on list, since you may get more reliable advice that way. Also - this is true in this country but may not be true in France - lawyers prefer to be formally instructed when giving advice of this specificity in case the advice is acted upon and then the person they advised gets into difficulty. The formal instructions are a form of protection for the lawyer. Having said that you might want to think carefully about the difference between database copyright (in L112-3 of the intellectual property code) and the sui generis database right (in L341-1). There's a reasonable argument, based on the Fixtures Marketing cases (see http://curia.europa.eu/fr/actu/communiques/cp04/aff/cp040089fr.pdf) that a transport company does not acquire a database right in its own timetable data because it does not expend resources collecting it (in French the word is la constitution rather than collection). It makes the timetable itself so does not need to collect it. As the creator it has no database right (an odd but important result). I think that is the thrust of your argument. But, a transport company might be able to claim a database copyright in its timetable on the basis that it is an intellectual creation. The idea of the database directive was that a common standard would be applied across all EU states for the threshold test for database copyright. My impression is that the threshold for database copyright is lower in France than it is for most other forms of copyright, but that is still somewhat uncertain I think. The reason this may be a real issue is that it does require intellectual creativity to put together most transport timetables. Considerable thought needs to go in to ensuring that they work. On the basis of a recent High Court case in which the football league's fixtures list was accepted as an intellectual creation, I am fairly sure that such timetables are copyrightable as databases in England. The standard _ought_ to be the same in France, but there has been no direct court of justice authority on the point as far as I know. In other words: I don't think it would work. -- Francis Davey ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Database right for public transport
Hi, I am sorry, you are right, based on what I said, this conversation hardly concerns osm directly. I asked before I did not know where to start getting real help about this. And so, thank you for your answer. It finally got into the heart of the subject. I never thought of that point, that transport companies do not collect the timetable database, as it is already there. And this was, in fact, almost my argument in what I said, except that I did not realize the full extent of the separation between the creation and the gathering of the timetables. And you are right too, in the fact that timetables are close to be obvious copyrightable things, in that they are original creations of the mind, that really needed thinking, and time. About the distinction between sui generis and copyright, I jumped some times between the two groups of articles you cite here, I just did not understand until now that sui generis was exactly what I called database copyright, as opposed to droits d'auteur, for what you call - and actually is -database copyright. In other words, I knew the distinction but did not know how to say it in english. What is weird, though, is that really every lawyer I asked in France, confirmed me there would not be any copyright on a single timetable, and the same for the collection of different timetables. They were always afraid of the interpretation of the database law, precisely because there had been no cases about it yet. And about the formal instruction, the point is I am a student, and I don't know if with the 500€ a year max I could spend on such unpredicted stuff, I would be sure to get my final advice...And when I asked today to one of the lawyers I called, he told me that on such a complex case, it would very probably cost me a lot...I really do not know where I will be able to find out all this money for that...and when I asked other cabinets, without even forwarding me to any lawyer they told me straight that this would be really expensive...I am no business man, unfortunately! Especially if I wanted, like at the beginning, to open this site I wanted to create, to as much countries as possible...this is just impossible to do without a huge proper funding...and still, it will be no use to osm and transiki because, even with all the advice that could be gathered, on the ways to bypass what can be bypassed, as you said it would probably be still too risky to use anything without proper authorization... Maybe then I will just turn to Transiki, and think of a way to get all these damn authorizations fast...We may still have a point in the fact that travel agencies in France always have this dichotomy between their internal database, and you recreating it with one-by-one timetables...Upon what you said, they still have to authorize it (which, in my experience, they all even do not know), but they will be much eager to do so, based on everything I heard. So developping a tool to assist timetable data transfer from pdf files to the transiki database, would still be a good thing I could start thinking of... Anyway, thank you for this very clever answer, it made me advance in this. Good night Andrei 2010/12/6 Francis Davey fjm...@gmail.com On 6 December 2010 20:57, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, [snip] strategy, to avoid trouble. Any advice on such an entreprise? I'm not sure that this is really on topic for this list since it doesn't impact legally on open street map (or it shouldn't). Its also the kind of thing you should talk to a lawyer, preferably a French lawyer, about rather than asking for advice on list, since you may get more reliable advice that way. Also - this is true in this country but may not be true in France - lawyers prefer to be formally instructed when giving advice of this specificity in case the advice is acted upon and then the person they advised gets into difficulty. The formal instructions are a form of protection for the lawyer. Having said that you might want to think carefully about the difference between database copyright (in L112-3 of the intellectual property code) and the sui generis database right (in L341-1). There's a reasonable argument, based on the Fixtures Marketing cases (see http://curia.europa.eu/fr/actu/communiques/cp04/aff/cp040089fr.pdf) that a transport company does not acquire a database right in its own timetable data because it does not expend resources collecting it (in French the word is la constitution rather than collection). It makes the timetable itself so does not need to collect it. As the creator it has no database right (an odd but important result). I think that is the thrust of your argument. But, a transport company might be able to claim a database copyright in its timetable on the basis that it is an intellectual creation. The idea of the database directive was that a common standard would be applied across all EU states for the threshold test for database copyright.
[OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
This message explains a problem that user interfaces such as Nominatim have when choosing the correct localized 'name' tag to show to the user, why I believe this is caused by incomplete tagging, and a proposal to fix it. I was surprised when searching on the OSM home page to find Edinburgh was not in Scotland but in 'Ecosse'. My preferred language is English, although I do understand a few words of French, and I had set my browser language preferences accordingly. The browser sends an HTTP Accept-Language header giving English a better score than French. So why does Nominatim think I would prefer to see the French name for the country? It is because it sees some tags like (simplified to illustrate): name=Scotland name:fr=Ecosse name:es=Escocia Given that, and the user's preferred languages [en, fr], what name should be picked? The program cannot know that the name 'Scotland' is in English, so the best course of action is to pick a name that the browser says it will accept. If none of the names is tagged with an accepted language then it can fall back to the ordinary 'name' tag as a last resort, but if some localized names are there then they should be used. The alternative would be no localization. I have noticed similar problems when searching in the USA: someone added Serbian Cyrillic names for the 50 states, which now pop up instead of the English names because I have included Serbian in my language list, even though with tiny score. I believe the answer, as so often, is to improve the tagging used so that software has the information it needs. In this case an explicit English- language name should be added, so we have name=Scotland name:en=Scotland name:fr=Ecosse name:es=Escocia (Another way to tag the same info would be to invent a new tag 'language_of_main_name=en' but this seems cumbersome and would not be understood by existing software.) In an attempt to fix this I have asked the maintainer of http://keepright.ipax.at/ to add a data check. Where a choice of languages exists for a name, then there should be one that corresponds to the main 'name' tag. In other words for the example above there was name=Scotland but not any name:XX=Scotland. One should be added indicating the language of this name, so that user interfaces can choose among the name:XX. Of course if an object has just a single name tag to be used for all languages, that's fine. What I plan to do is to work through these 'language unknown' warnings and, with help from a tool, add explicit language tags. I have manually fixed the small number of cases in London but it gets more interesting in Wales (where a user who understands both English and Welsh, but prefers English, will currently be given the Welsh names) or Turkey (where a user preferring Turkish to Greek will be given Greek names for many places). In the new year I plan to write a small tool to help fix these, prompting a human being to decide or at least verify the language of each name. Then an additional name:XX tag will be added to the object. Sound sensible? -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Hi, On 12/06/2010 11:00 AM, Ed Avis wrote: Given that, and the user's preferred languages [en, fr], what name should be picked? The program cannot know that the name 'Scotland' is in English Why? Are there places in Scotland that have a Gaelic name in the name tag? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Someone already had a look at the Bing Terms of Use?
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: The situation is sufficient for me to use Bing imagery for tracing. I'm not looking at the legal side of it, I'm just looking at the size of the PR disaster should Microsoft attempt to backtrack in any way. PR is more important than legal. As most people on this list know, with CC-BY-SA being next to invalid for Geodata in the US, any of the big US players could long have taken our data an run. Why haven't they? Because they fear a PR disaster. I suppose I don't mind if a license is technically invalid because of some obscure legal reason, I just think that the intent needs to be there, publicly, officially, and clearly stated on what they are okay with and what they aren't. I don't think the Bing people have clearly stated what they consider acceptable and what they don't. Another potential problem I see with Bing is, as far as I could tell, this grant is only for OpenStreetMap. Does their permission extend to other people who then use the OSM database? I feel this needs to be made clear. But luckily this is something that everyone can decide for themselves - if you're happy with the situation, start tracing; if you're not, then don't. There's enough mapping to be done without reliance to Bing images. Yes, though its a little more complicated than that. What if there is data from GPS, data from NearMap and data from Bing. There is enough diversity to find people who think one data source is superior with the other and shouldn't be replace with the other. How do we decide who's data is the best? I face this every day when I have to decide whether to replace someones GPS survey data with NearMap derived information. On one hand NearMap is a perfectly legitimate data source and is in most cases probably more accurate that a consumer GPS. On the other hand someone who likes the contributor terms may think that their GPS data is superior and shouldn't be replaced with more accurate NearMap derived information because the NearMap information is incompatible with the contributors terms. If we go along with everyone make up their own mind, clashes will erupt. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 12/06/2010 11:00 AM, Ed Avis wrote: Given that, and the user's preferred languages [en, fr], what name should be picked? The program cannot know that the name 'Scotland' is in English Why? Are there places in Scotland that have a Gaelic name in the name tag? :-) Well does anyone have code to add name as local language in postgis, what are the options? Lets not complicate your remark by enumerating all multilingual areas in the world, where names means power -- /emj ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Hi, Ed Avis wrote: [...] I believe the answer, as so often, is to improve the tagging used so that software has the information it needs. In this case an explicit English- language name should be added, so we have name=Scotland name:en=Scotland name:fr=Ecosse name:es=Escocia (Another way to tag the same info would be to invent a new tag 'language_of_main_name=en' but this seems cumbersome and would not be understood by existing software.) This is also the solution I am using when tagging stuff in the German Community of Belgium, where many places, streets, etc have both german and french names. But this is indeed a problem in many areas - with special focus on countries with more than one official language. (But of course also - for example - in touristic places and elsewhere.) The only objection I have is that it introduces some sort of redundancy - even if small. I can't think of a better solution so far, though. In the new year I plan to write a small tool to help fix these, prompting a human being to decide or at least verify the language of each name. Then an additional name:XX tag will be added to the object. Sound sensible? Could be a solution, I think. Michael ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: Given that, and the user's preferred languages [en, fr], what name should be picked? The program cannot know that the name 'Scotland' is in English Why? Are there places in Scotland that have a Gaelic name in the name tag? There may be, but in the absence of other information, how would you write a program to work out that name=Scotland must be in English and not some other language? We could add per-country or per-geographical-area rules about what the 'default' language is. But that seems like the wrong answer, and would give the wrong result in many cases. Often, there is no sharp dividing line between one language area and another, so we do need to tag the language used at the level of individual objects, and not as a set of defaults. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Le 06/12/2010 11:22, MD a écrit : Hi, Ed Avis wrote: [...] I believe the answer, as so often, is to improve the tagging used so that software has the information it needs. In this case an explicit English- language name should be added, so we have name=Scotland name:en=Scotland name:fr=Ecosse name:es=Escocia (Another way to tag the same info would be to invent a new tag 'language_of_main_name=en' but this seems cumbersome and would not be understood by existing software.) This is also the solution I am using when tagging stuff in the German Community of Belgium, where many places, streets, etc have both german and french names. But this is indeed a problem in many areas - with special focus on countries with more than one official language. (But of course also - for example - in touristic places and elsewhere.) The only objection I have is that it introduces some sort of redundancy - even if small. I can't think of a better solution so far, though. In the new year I plan to write a small tool to help fix these, prompting a human being to decide or at least verify the language of each name. Then an additional name:XX tag will be added to the object. Sound sensible? Could be a solution, I think. A solution could be by adding a tag on boundaries with something like language:name=nn as 'default language' for the tags name=* inside the boundary, and maybe a cascade system for some places where the langage at country level is nn and at regionnal level is mm. It gives less work for the mappers, no redundancy but more work for nominatim. I have tryied something in that way with a 'default' relation : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Defaults -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: Given that, and the user's preferred languages [en, fr], what name should be picked? The program cannot know that the name 'Scotland' is in English Why? Are there places in Scotland that have a Gaelic name in the name tag? There may be, but in the absence of other information, how would you write a program to work out that name=Scotland must be in English and not some other language? We could add per-country or per-geographical-area rules about what the 'default' language is. But that seems like the wrong answer, and would give the wrong result in many cases. In a few cases, the thing is you want to make those areas anyways right? Then people who care about the area can go and fix them. I.e. your welsh example would be fixed almost directly, except some corner cases. -- /emj ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Hi, On 12/06/10 11:48, Ed Avis wrote: We could add per-country or per-geographical-area rules about what the 'default' language is. I guess those don't have to be added, do they? Is it not implicit that places in France will by default have the French name in their name tag? But that seems like the wrong answer, and would give the wrong result in many cases. Often, there is no sharp dividing line between one language area and another, so we do need to tag the language used at the level of individual objects, and not as a set of defaults. My guess is that a rule like I suggested would yield the correct answer in 99.5% of cases. The remaining 0.5% should receive special tagging because they are the exception; I don't think we should flood the whole database with unnecessary duplication of values. (Where would it end? Just because occasionally a famous street in France will be known to the English by an English name, should every single street in France thus be tagged name:fr=...?) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Erik, On 12/06/10 11:19, Erik Johansson wrote: :-) Well does anyone have code to add name as local language in postgis, what are the options? Lets not complicate your remark by enumerating all multilingual areas in the world, where names means power The question was about Nominatim originally. As far as I am aware, Nominatim already makes an effort to find out in which country something lies (so it can give the country in the result list) - so it should be trivial to employ a country-language code mapping and always assume that the given name is in the country's default language, no? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: We could add per-country or per-geographical-area rules about what the 'default' language is. But that seems like the wrong answer, and would give the wrong result in many cases. Seems like the right answer to me. There are lots of things that would benefit from this scheme: default speed limits, driving on left/right, default access rights, etc etc... Often, there is no sharp dividing line between one language area and another So those areas should specify languages explicitly. Very many countries have a single official language. Asking every mapper to add this extra tag, rather than just the ones where it could be ambiguous, doesn't make sense. I have no idea if anyone's interested in implementing the default system though. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Someone already had a look at the Bing Terms of Use?
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote: with and what they aren't. I don't think the Bing people have clearly stated what they consider acceptable and what they don't. It would be a very strange world if Steve Coast announced that OSM could use Bing maps, and he meant something other than trace streets and other objects from them, and license that data as CC-BY-SA. Steve ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: We could add per-country or per-geographical-area rules about what the 'default' language is. I guess those don't have to be added, do they? Is it not implicit that places in France will by default have the French name in their name tag? Yes, but that still has to be added or tagged somewhere. There is no 'default language' tag on the map currently, AFAIK. My guess is that a rule like I suggested would yield the correct answer in 99.5% of cases. The remaining 0.5% should receive special tagging because they are the exception; I don't think we should flood the whole database with unnecessary duplication of values. (Where would it end? Just because occasionally a famous street in France will be known to the English by an English name, should every single street in France thus be tagged name:fr=...?) I am not suggesting that, just that where this particular object has both name=Tour Eiffel and name:en=Eiffel Tower, it should get also name:fr. An object with just a single name tag does not present any problem for user interfaces to choose which one to show. You may be right that adding per-country rules would solve it in most cases. I'm not dogmatic about avoiding such defaults or implicit information; nobody suggests that every road on the map should be tagged to say drive-on-left or drive-on-right. However, I suggested using the existing tagging mechanisms partly because this would not require any changes to existing software. It is sufficient to download an object by itself and that contains the info you need to choose which name to show. If regional defaults were introduced, every user-facing program that wants to do localization would need to be modified to understand the new scheme. But also, I think that having defaults in this way makes errors more likely. If a Gaelic-speaking part of Scotland has a place whose 'name' is in Gaelic, then if this is just tagged as 'name=N' it is correct. Not complete, perhaps, but not wrong as far as it goes. However if there is a default setting for Scotland that says names are in English, this tagging is now giving incorrect data about the language of this name N (even though N may well be correct by the 'on the ground' rule). Every mapper must be aware of the default for each area. So I think that rather than creating defaults, it is more robust to add additional information to the small number of objects that need it. Again, this is only for those objects tagged with more than one name. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. Sadly, the GUI doesn't tell me when this flag was set, nor does it provide a way to unset it. (I could also complain about the fact that there are no indications anywhere else that you're operating in a totally different licensing mode, but I'll leave it.) So: 1) Could someone please unset this flag for me: (User: stevage) 2) Could someone please tell me when it got set? And for bonus points: 3) Could someone provide evidence that I did indeed set it? I think the most likely explanation is that I did (I do recall visiting the page on several occasions to read the terms, maybe I had a brainfart), but I'm curious whether there is any kind of signature equivalent that would hold up in court. A single bit in a database is not very compelling. Failing all that, I guess I create a new user account? From a pragmatic legal perspective, it seems to me that any nearmap-sourced edits that I made while under the effects of the CT are totally invalid anyway, so should be moved to a non-CT account. Or, to save a lot of bother: just unset the flag. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
On 6 Dec 2010, at 10:10, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 12/06/2010 11:00 AM, Ed Avis wrote: Given that, and the user's preferred languages [en, fr], what name should be picked? The program cannot know that the name 'Scotland' is in English Why? Are there places in Scotland that have a Gaelic name in the name tag? Yes there is and technically should be. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/3493177 is an example where there is no other name tags. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/269271354 is an example where you have the name in English in the name tag, and no name:en tag. And I have found one where name is in Gaelic, with a separate en tag, but no other name tags: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/380646 Shaun ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On 06/12/10 12:09, Steve Bennett wrote: 1) Could someone please unset this flag for me: (User: stevage) This is really a policy issue I think. 2) Could someone please tell me when it got set? 2010-08-13 01:44:38.6323 UTC And for bonus points: 3) Could someone provide evidence that I did indeed set it? I think the most likely explanation is that I did (I do recall visiting the page on several occasions to read the terms, maybe I had a brainfart), but I'm curious whether there is any kind of signature equivalent that would hold up in court. A single bit in a database is not very compelling. It's not a bit, it's a timestamp precisely because it does provide better evidence. It also means it can be correlated with the logs, so for example I can tell what IP address you made the change from. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
On 6 December 2010 11:41, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Erik, On 12/06/10 11:19, Erik Johansson wrote: :-) Well does anyone have code to add name as local language in postgis, what are the options? Lets not complicate your remark by enumerating all multilingual areas in the world, where names means power The question was about Nominatim originally. As far as I am aware, Nominatim already makes an effort to find out in which country something lies (so it can give the country in the result list) - so it should be trivial to employ a country-language code mapping and always assume that the given name is in the country's default language, no? This is the approach I've already taken - the next version of Nominatim has a field country_default_language_code as part of the country details (http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/nominatim/data/country_name.sql). This list is entirely of my own construction and probably misses quite a few countries default languages. I welcome any improvements! This approach really only works for countries with a single primary language, for instance it won't work well in Switzerland, but in general people in countries with multiple primary languages are more careful about how they tag languages so actually ti resolves most of the problems. Cheers, -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Le 06/12/2010 12:52, Steve Bennett a écrit : On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Ed Avise...@waniasset.com wrote: We could add per-country or per-geographical-area rules about what the 'default' language is. But that seems like the wrong answer, and would give the wrong result in many cases. Seems like the right answer to me. There are lots of things that would benefit from this scheme: default speed limits, driving on left/right, default access rights, etc etc... Often, there is no sharp dividing line between one language area and another So those areas should specify languages explicitly. Very many countries have a single official language. Asking every mapper to add this extra tag, rather than just the ones where it could be ambiguous, doesn't make sense. I have no idea if anyone's interested in implementing the default system though. Steve http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Defaults -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Brian Quinion openstreetmap at brian.quinion.co.uk writes: This is the approach I've already taken - the next version of Nominatim has a field country_default_language_code as part of the country details OK I guess that takes care of it, so we don't need additional per-object tags. This list is entirely of my own construction and probably misses quite a few countries default languages. I welcome any improvements! Shouldn't it be tagged as part of the map, rather than a separate file? -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
On 6 December 2010 13:18, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: Brian Quinion openstreetmap at brian.quinion.co.uk writes: This list is entirely of my own construction and probably misses quite a few countries default languages. I welcome any improvements! Shouldn't it be tagged as part of the map, rather than a separate file? Feel free to move the data into the map - if this happens I will probably write something to import it into the table. -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Someone already had a look at the Bing Terms of Use?
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote: with and what they aren't. I don't think the Bing people have clearly stated what they consider acceptable and what they don't. It would be a very strange world if Steve Coast announced that OSM could use Bing maps, and he meant something other than trace streets and other objects from them, and license that data as CC-BY-SA. ... and CT/ODbL in future Fixed that for you. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
This should really be taking place on the legal list but nonetheless: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. Sadly, the GUI doesn't tell me when this flag was set, nor does it provide a way to unset it. (I could also complain about the fact that there are no indications anywhere else that you're operating in a totally different licensing mode, but I'll leave it.) You're not operating in a totally difference licensing mode, the work is licensed under CC-BY-SA until the switchover. So: 1) Could someone please unset this flag for me: (User: stevage) Unsetting the flag has repercussions to the organization which I think you should be aware of. The CT isn't a license, it's a terms of agreement. That means you've given OSMF a license to the data, and now you're asking them to revoke that license. This would be (moral if not legal) equivalent of someone offering up a program under the GPL and then saying Nope, I want it proprietary. Going forward, of course, you can choose your own terms, but you can't retroactively revoke the license, because that's spelled out explicitly in the license itself. My suggestion to you personally, if you don't like the project's terms, then you should stop submitting data to it immediately. 2) Could someone please tell me when it got set? And for bonus points: 3) Could someone provide evidence that I did indeed set it? I think the most likely explanation is that I did (I do recall visiting the page on several occasions to read the terms, maybe I had a brainfart), but I'm curious whether there is any kind of signature equivalent that would hold up in court. A single bit in a database is not very compelling. Assuming this question was asked in good faith, then I can tell you for sure that agreement to a license via a click is indeed valid. If it weren't, then every time you agree to any web site or software's terms of service via a single checkbox, then that would be invalid. I notice you're using a Google email address- I'm sure you had to click some terms at some point- same thing. In this case, OSM knows you were authenticated, where you were authenticated from, and when you clicked the button and submitted the form. Failing all that, I guess I create a new user account? Sure, you could, but all new accounts require accepting the CT before you can begin. From a pragmatic legal perspective, it seems to me that any nearmap-sourced edits that I made while under the effects of the CT are totally invalid anyway, so should be moved to a non-CT account. I don't know anything about Nearmap, buf the data in OSM as of today is available under the CC-BY-SA license, and your usage is bound to that. Or, to save a lot of bother: just unset the flag. I'm not on the OSMF board, but if I were, I'd say that the dangers of revoking a license are so high that I'd be extremely hesitant to do so. On the other hand, someone who might have a beef with OSM and doesn't want to accept the CT might set up such a situation to put them in an impossible situation. In other words, Steve, I think it was your talk I went to at SoTM, regarding rendering. If it was, you seem like a nice guy. Please don't make more trouble for OSM- if you don't like the CT, then just stop contributing. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On 6 December 2010 23:55, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: This should really be taking place on the legal list but nonetheless: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. In other words, Steve, I think it was your talk I went to at SoTM, regarding rendering. If it was, you seem like a nice guy. Please don't make more trouble for OSM- if you don't like the CT, then just stop contributing. The problem is by agreeing to the CT Steve has breached his contract with Nearmap, which in turn is a breach of CT terms so legally he had no right to agree to the CTs in the first place. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. From a pragmatic legal perspective, it seems to me that any nearmap-sourced edits that I made while under the effects of the CT are totally invalid anyway, so should be moved to a non-CT account. We're* also expecting to implement a way for you to flag edits that shouldn't be promoted to CT/ODbL, so you'll be able to accept CT, and flag those changesets that are incompatible individually. The bad ones won't be brought forward but your survey-based, direct-observation contributions will continue. Many other benefits to this approach, but that's a discussion for another list. * LWG have been discussing it, but the server team / community will end up implementing it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
I think that the pertinent question is whether Steve deliberately accepted the CT and license or was he hijacked by a bad UI. David. PS. Wow, reading all of the emails on this subject over the last year, it is clear that this license issue and the way that it has been handled is obviously the best thing that ever happened to OSM and the OSM community! Personally, I don't have any strong technical reasons to favor either side the debate over the status quo license and the new license and CT, but in observing how this whole debacle has been handled, my gut is definitely against it now. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: This should really be taking place on the legal list but nonetheless: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. snip So: 1) Could someone please unset this flag for me: (User: stevage) Unsetting the flag has repercussions to the organization which I think you should be aware of. The CT isn't a license, it's a terms of agreement. That means you've given OSMF a license to the data, and now you're asking them to revoke that license. This would be (moral if not legal) equivalent of someone offering up a program under the GPL and then saying Nope, I want it proprietary. Going forward, of course, you can choose your own terms, but you can't retroactively revoke the license, because that's spelled out explicitly in the license itself. My suggestion to you personally, if you don't like the project's terms, then you should stop submitting data to it immediately. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
Frederik Ramm schrieb: Erik, On 12/06/10 11:19, Erik Johansson wrote: :-) Well does anyone have code to add name as local language in postgis, what are the options? Lets not complicate your remark by enumerating all multilingual areas in the world, where names means power The question was about Nominatim originally. As far as I am aware, Nominatim already makes an effort to find out in which country something lies (so it can give the country in the result list) - so it should be trivial to employ a country-language code mapping and always assume that the given name is in the country's default language, no? With some countries having up to 11 or so official languages (ever looked at South Africa?), I'm not sure that's so trivial. Or would you able to tell me what language a name in Switzerland is in on a pure-logical basis (Switzerland has German, French, Italian, and Romansh/Rhaeto-Romanic that are all official languages)? Of course, a human can potentially take a good guess based on some knowledge of the languages, but machines have a hard time there... Robert Kaiser ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Announce: Bing Aerial image age viewer
Hi all, For those of you wondering when the Bing aerials were photographed for your area (like me), I created a viewer for that. Give it a try: http://mvexel.dev.openstreetmap.org/bing/ It uses the date given in a Bing custom HTTP header, which is often correct, but not always. Date error reports are accumulating here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Bing#Age_of_images What I'd like to do: * Add permalink for easy error reporting * Cache the date tiles to reduce the number of requests to the Bing servers. If someone would like to give these a go, ping me for source code etc. Best, Martijn Martijn van Exel +++...@rtijn.org laziness – impatience – hubris http://schaaltreinen.nl | http://martijnvanexel.nl | http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ twitter / skype: mvexel flickr: rhodes ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On 6 December 2010 14:55, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. But the Contributor Terms aren't compatible. It's not some theoretical issue, they are actually incompatible in that you can't give OSMF the rights listed in CT to something licensed CC-By-SA (yes, this belongs on the legal list but I wanted to correc this) Sadly, the GUI doesn't tell me when this flag was set, nor does it provide a way to unset it. (I could also complain about the fact that there are no indications anywhere else that you're operating in a totally different licensing mode, but I'll leave it.) You're not operating in a totally difference licensing mode, the work is licensed under CC-BY-SA until the switchover. So: 1) Could someone please unset this flag for me: (User: stevage) Unsetting the flag has repercussions to the organization which I think you should be aware of. The CT isn't a license, it's a terms of agreement. That means you've given OSMF a license to the data, and now you're asking them to revoke that license. This would be (moral if not legal) equivalent of someone offering up a program under the GPL and then saying Nope, I want it proprietary. With regards to what Steve submitted so far, yes, but he should be able to decide the terms for his new edits. Going forward, of course, you can choose your own terms, but you can't retroactively revoke the license, because that's spelled out explicitly in the license itself. My suggestion to you personally, if you don't like the project's terms, then you should stop submitting data to it immediately. Or let's discuss the terms and come up with something that satisfies more people. There is a very vocal group, including you saying that this is now the project's terms in ways that try to sound authoritative, but 1. these terms are still in flux which you know about, so what are the actual terms? the 1.0 or the 1.1 or the upcoming 1.2? 2. assuming that the project is the community then the new terms are just the terms of a part of the project and what the committee up there decides doesn't automatically become fact. And telling the other part of the project to go away you're not helping OSM, so in your words Please don't make more trouble for OSM, you did seem like a nice guy at the SoTM. (which is irrelevant, but that's apparently the way to communicate) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
- Original Message - From: Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com To: Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com Cc: Open Street Map mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag This should really be taking place on the legal list but nonetheless: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. Serge, are you sure about the advice you gave above? Last I heard, use of NearMap imagery was incompatible with the CT's, and that position is also stated on the wiki at: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nearmap David Sadly, the GUI doesn't tell me when this flag was set, nor does it provide a way to unset it. (I could also complain about the fact that there are no indications anywhere else that you're operating in a totally different licensing mode, but I'll leave it.) You're not operating in a totally difference licensing mode, the work is licensed under CC-BY-SA until the switchover. So: 1) Could someone please unset this flag for me: (User: stevage) Unsetting the flag has repercussions to the organization which I think you should be aware of. The CT isn't a license, it's a terms of agreement. That means you've given OSMF a license to the data, and now you're asking them to revoke that license. This would be (moral if not legal) equivalent of someone offering up a program under the GPL and then saying Nope, I want it proprietary. Going forward, of course, you can choose your own terms, but you can't retroactively revoke the license, because that's spelled out explicitly in the license itself. My suggestion to you personally, if you don't like the project's terms, then you should stop submitting data to it immediately. 2) Could someone please tell me when it got set? And for bonus points: 3) Could someone provide evidence that I did indeed set it? I think the most likely explanation is that I did (I do recall visiting the page on several occasions to read the terms, maybe I had a brainfart), but I'm curious whether there is any kind of signature equivalent that would hold up in court. A single bit in a database is not very compelling. Assuming this question was asked in good faith, then I can tell you for sure that agreement to a license via a click is indeed valid. If it weren't, then every time you agree to any web site or software's terms of service via a single checkbox, then that would be invalid. I notice you're using a Google email address- I'm sure you had to click some terms at some point- same thing. In this case, OSM knows you were authenticated, where you were authenticated from, and when you clicked the button and submitted the form. Failing all that, I guess I create a new user account? Sure, you could, but all new accounts require accepting the CT before you can begin. From a pragmatic legal perspective, it seems to me that any nearmap-sourced edits that I made while under the effects of the CT are totally invalid anyway, so should be moved to a non-CT account. I don't know anything about Nearmap, buf the data in OSM as of today is available under the CC-BY-SA license, and your usage is bound to that. Or, to save a lot of bother: just unset the flag. I'm not on the OSMF board, but if I were, I'd say that the dangers of revoking a license are so high that I'd be extremely hesitant to do so. On the other hand, someone who might have a beef with OSM and doesn't want to accept the CT might set up such a situation to put them in an impossible situation. In other words, Steve, I think it was your talk I went to at SoTM, regarding rendering. If it was, you seem like a nice guy. Please don't make more trouble for OSM- if you don't like the CT, then just stop contributing. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 11:42 AM, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 December 2010 14:55, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. But the Contributor Terms aren't compatible. It's not some theoretical issue, they are actually incompatible in that you can't give OSMF the rights listed in CT to something licensed CC-By-SA (yes, this belongs on the legal list but I wanted to correc this) Right; this is an issue with a few people in OSM who've integrated other datasets under a specific license, rather than either getting the other organization to make them available under a very permissive license, or else making the donation to OSM itself. I don't know the specifics of Nearmap but I'm aware of this issue in general. So: 1) Could someone please unset this flag for me: (User: stevage) Unsetting the flag has repercussions to the organization which I think you should be aware of. The CT isn't a license, it's a terms of agreement. That means you've given OSMF a license to the data, and now you're asking them to revoke that license. This would be (moral if not legal) equivalent of someone offering up a program under the GPL and then saying Nope, I want it proprietary. With regards to what Steve submitted so far, yes, but he should be able to decide the terms for his new edits. I think that this issue is really more cut and dry. Regarding data he's entered which is licensed by a third party, the third party needs to make the data available to OSM in a way that works with OSM's chosen license model, or else the data needs to be removed from OSM. That doesn't mean Steve needs to be alone; OSM could offer resources to assist this effort. Or let's discuss the terms and come up with something that satisfies more people. There is a very vocal group, including you saying that this is now the project's terms in ways that try to sound authoritative, but 1. these terms are still in flux which you know about, so what are the actual terms? the 1.0 or the 1.1 or the upcoming 1.2? Google, Twitter and Facebook, the three largest sites in the English speaking Internet, all have terms which change over time, and so does OSM. And unlike those other organizations, you have direct ability not only to accept or not accept the terms, but also to vote for the organization's leadership, which AFAIK, isn't an option for Google users. 2. assuming that the project is the community then the new terms are just the terms of a part of the project and what the committee up there decides doesn't automatically become fact. The LWG is part of the OSMF, and the OSMF is who runs this project. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
2010/12/6 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 11:42 AM, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 December 2010 14:55, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. But the Contributor Terms aren't compatible. It's not some theoretical issue, they are actually incompatible in that you can't give OSMF the rights listed in CT to something licensed CC-By-SA (yes, this belongs on the legal list but I wanted to correc this) Right; this is an issue with a few people in OSM who've integrated other datasets under a specific license, rather than either getting the other organization to make them available under a very permissive license, or else making the donation to OSM itself. Serge, which part of It isn't about license, it is about CT you don't understand? License is fine. It is CT which in fact still allows OSMF to change data license to any other free license (which could be strip share alike and attribution requirements) what blocks usage. In fact, there is NO license which allows such CT to coexist. Only PD, and that's even not working in all countries. I know that ODbL team talked about changing description of free license, but I don't see any official statements about that. I'm afraid that PDists got their way all over again. Cheers, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
There are likely to be cases where two or more of the possible languages use an identical name for the same location or entity. Plus, in addition to any official languages for a particular country, you may have additional languages spoken by the local people. For example, the official language of France is French, but it has 24 regional languages in the European region of the country, and 51 additional regional languages in overseas territories, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_France. Trying to decide, on a location basis, which language a name=xxx tag belongs to won't be trivial. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language From :mailto:ka...@kairo.at Date :Mon Dec 06 09:50:25 America/Chicago 2010 Frederik Ramm schrieb: Erik, On 12/06/10 11:19, Erik Johansson wrote: :-) Well does anyone have code to add name as local language in postgis, what are the options? Lets not complicate your remark by enumerating all multilingual areas in the world, where names means power The question was about Nominatim originally. As far as I am aware, Nominatim already makes an effort to find out in which country something lies (so it can give the country in the result list) - so it should be trivial to employ a country-language code mapping and always assume that the given name is in the country's default language, no? With some countries having up to 11 or so official languages (ever looked at South Africa?), I'm not sure that's so trivial. Or would you able to tell me what language a name in Switzerland is in on a pure-logical basis (Switzerland has German, French, Italian, and Romansh/Rhaeto-Romanic that are all official languages)? Of course, a human can potentially take a good guess based on some knowledge of the languages, but machines have a hard time there... Robert Kaiser ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
Hi, pec...@gmail.com wrote: License is fine. It is CT which in fact still allows OSMF to change data license to any other free license (which could be strip share alike and attribution requirements) what blocks usage. In fact, there is NO license which allows such CT to coexist. Only PD, and that's even not working in all countries. I'm sure that if, at any time in the future, the OSM license needs to be changed, it will be into something that works in all countries. We don't know if it will ever be necessary; we don't know what that license might be; we don't even know which countries will be around then and what their legal systems will look like. Think long-term! This is not a clause aimed at next year. I know that ODbL team talked about changing description of free license, but I don't see any official statements about that. I'm afraid that PDists got their way all over again. ODbL is not a PD license, so you do not have to be afraid. As for the distant future - we don't know who will be in OSM then, what their preferences will be, and wheter you and I will be alive then. I think it is ok to let those who *then* run OSM decide, instead of trying to force onto them what we today think is right. And legal-talk is that way --- Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Osmosis exception
Same situation with osmosis 0.38, only node no ways Carsten Den 05-12-2010 20:50, Carsten Nielsen skrev: I dont recall where I saw the --read-bin option but se it is also mentioned in the recent geofabrik blogpost http://blog.geofabrik.de/en/?p=75 and yes I have tried to replace it with the --read.pbf and the result is the same. I have not tried with the 0.38 version of osmosis because, geofabrik menthion that it the 0.37 version should work, but I will give it a try. Carsten Den 05-12-2010 20:37, Stephan Knauss skrev: On 05.12.2010 17:52, Carsten Nielsen wrote: call %OSMTOOLS%\Osmosis\osmosis-0.37\bin\osmosis.bat --read-bin %DATADIR%\europe.osm.pbf --bounding-polygon file=%DATADIR%\CTN OSM DK mm.poly.txt --write-xml file=%DATADIR%\denmark_mm.osm Any clues to why I dont get any ways in my OSM file ? Have you tried the read-pbf task? I did a similar thing and it worked. You could also use a more recent version of osmosis. Stephan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Ingen virus fundet i denne indkommende meddelelse. Kontrolleret af AVG -www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/3298 - Udgivelsesdato: 12/05/10 08:34:00 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Ingen virus fundet i denne indkommende meddelelse. Kontrolleret af AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/3298 - Udgivelsesdato: 12/05/10 08:34:00 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-legal-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, pec...@gmail.com wrote: License is fine. It is CT which in fact still allows OSMF to change data license to any other free license (which could be strip share alike and attribution requirements) what blocks usage. In fact, there is NO license which allows such CT to coexist. Only PD, and that's even not working in all countries. I'm sure that if, at any time in the future, the OSM license needs to be changed, it will be into something that works in all countries. We don't know if it will ever be necessary; we don't know what that license might be; we don't even know which countries will be around then and what their legal systems will look like. Think long-term! This is not a clause aimed at next year. I know that ODbL team talked about changing description of free license, but I don't see any official statements about that. I'm afraid that PDists got their way all over again. ODbL is not a PD license, so you do not have to be afraid. As for the distant future - we don't know who will be in OSM then, what their preferences will be, and wheter you and I will be alive then. I think it is ok to let those who *then* run OSM decide, instead of trying to force onto them what we today think is right. I think the problem with this idea is that it opens the door for carpetbaggers[1]. The purpose of share-alike licenses is to prevent the freeness of people's contributions from *ever* being hijacked. I, for one, certainly want to ensure that whoever runs OSM at some indeterminate point in the future can not pervert the principle on which I made my contributions. Anything less is unacceptable and is disrespectful to those who built OSM in the first place. 80n [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpetbagger#United_Kingdom And legal-talk is that way --- Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 08:55 -0500, Serge Wroclawski wrote: This should really be taking place on the legal list but nonetheless: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. What about at changeover though? Im pretty sure Steve asked this question in relation to data in the future, not the present. You're not operating in a totally difference licensing mode, the work is licensed under CC-BY-SA until the switchover. What happens at switchover though? Does the work that he unwittingly contributed (but he now wishes to revoke, having become aware of his violation) get switched? If I was to put a tag into the database, which contained copyright information, and I wasnt aware it was copyrighted, should I not have the right to ask for the removal of that information? Does the OSMF need a DMCA statement from anyone who has accidently contributed invalid data, which they refuse to remove. I do agree that it would be good to have some indication on the main screen, as to whether you have accepted the licence or not. The CT isn't a license, it's a terms of agreement. That means you've given OSMF a license to the data, and now you're asking them to revoke that license. ... because he has subsequently found out that he has no legal right to give that data to OSMF, and has infact commited an offence himself. The data that he contributed, that he's asking them to revoke, was invalid in the first place. It does raise one interesting question though (which I believe SHOULD be on legal-talk but Ill ask here since it fits with the rest of the thread). If a user becomes aware they have contributed data in this situation, and asks OSMF to remove the data or at least to not relicence the data, and OSMF doesnt remove or does relicence, does the fact the user asked for the data to be removed, remove any liability from the user for the violation? Does this put OSMF in a liable position, by refusing to remove data that it knows is in breach of copyright and its own terms? What would happen if a user was tracing from google instead of nearmap, and had accepted the CTs, would OSMF also refuse to change the flag, and simply relicence the google-traced data along with everything else? This would be (moral if not legal) equivalent of someone offering up a program under the GPL and then saying Nope, I want it proprietary. Not quite, this would be like someone distributing a GPL program but inadvertantly including firmware, and then after realising the firmware was there, deciding the licence has to be changed, or even saying 'You can have this program under GPL, but not this part which is unfortunately copyrighted to someone else'. My suggestion to you personally, if you don't like the project's terms, then you should stop submitting data to it immediately. And the 'illegal' data that has already been contributed, what of it? From a pragmatic legal perspective, it seems to me that any nearmap-sourced edits that I made while under the effects of the CT are totally invalid anyway, so should be moved to a non-CT account. I don't know anything about Nearmap, buf the data in OSM as of today is available under the CC-BY-SA license, and your usage is bound to that. Thats all great for today, but the CTs arent about today, theyre about the future, when there isnt a CC-BY-SA license. I'm not on the OSMF board, but if I were, I'd say that the dangers of revoking a license are so high that I'd be extremely hesitant to do so. I guess it depends if the 'danger' is equal to the danger of having a user inadvertantly contributing large chunks of data which is not legally licenced to be in OSM. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
Am 06.12.2010 17:58, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: The LWG is part of the OSMF, and the OSMF is who runs this project. The LWG is part of the OSMF, and the OSMF is part of the ~3 people who runs this project :-) Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 09:41:05 -0500 Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: We're* also expecting to implement a way for you to flag edits that shouldn't be promoted to CT/ODbL, so you'll be able to accept CT, and flag those changesets that are incompatible individually. The bad ones won't be brought forward but your survey-based, direct-observation contributions will continue. Many other benefits to this approach, but that's a discussion for another list. this was mentioned on talk-au and the impracticality of marking changesets was noted. If work has a source tag then this is easy for a particular node or way, but subject to vandalism by others. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 21:15 +0100, Ulf Lamping wrote: Am 06.12.2010 17:58, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: The LWG is part of the OSMF, and the OSMF is who runs this project. The LWG is part of the OSMF, and the OSMF is part of the ~3 people who runs this project :-) If the OSMF board abandoned OSM, maybe a dozen people would notice the difference. If the contributors abandoned OSM, well, the outcome would be obvious. Before this whole licence thing blew up, how many people even knew about OSMF? If things were done right, and this issue hadnt dragged on for 3 years, I suspect many of us possibly wouldnt have even heard of OSMF, and would have simply continued contributing data. The only action I can see the foundation has done in recent history, is to disenfranchise users by dragging legalities out for far too long. Sure, they might say theyve 'made progress' or 'formed working groups' or whatever, but Im seeing very little progress and very little work from the groups. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On 05/12/2010 22:07, Anthony wrote: On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Dave F.dave...@madasafish.com wrote: As long as there are external ways connecting to the area, a router should be able to find the appropriate entrances exits by tracking the perimeter. I thought they were already able to do that, but maybe not. Surely they can - just treat it like any other way. However, they don't treat leisure=park as a routable feature All routers? All areas? - which, if all they know about is the perimeter, is probably a good thing. Eh? I thought you said you'd love it if it cut directly across an area?? They don't have to *follow* the perimeter just use it to find the best exit then join it to the entrance to the area with a straight line. Are you certain no routers can do that? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Glittermap
Just saw a tweet from Ed Parsons that might be relevant to glittermap! Use with care animated pins http://goo.gl/a3Q8g, could be the mapping equivalent of blink/blink Toby On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, glitter today, dragons sea monsters tomorrow. SEJ A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes. -Ludwig Wittgenstein Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:37:41 -0400 From: Donald Campbell II donaciano2...@gmail.com To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New: A blackwhite base layer gratuitous snip Old fashioned piratey maps with dragons in the water... Flippin' SpongeBob maps!! This is really a great way to add more fun to the maps and get more people excited about it especially graphic artist types who want to have a wide range of work in their portfolios. It would also be great for advertisements and theme park type guides. There's of course the isometric map, the 8-bit map styles, etc... Has anyone already made a wacky OSM styles page? I know there's the featured images but things can get lost in the archive there. -Don. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 20:56 +, Dave F. wrote: - which, if all they know about is the perimeter, is probably a good thing. Eh? I thought you said you'd love it if it cut directly across an area?? They don't have to *follow* the perimeter just use it to find the best exit then join it to the entrance to the area with a straight line. And as was said during the thread, what happens if theres a lake, a building, a playground, etc in the middle of the straight line? What about if the 'straight line' crosses outside of the area, say for example if you had an L-shaped area. Are you certain no routers can do that? I think this is what it boils down to, that some routers may be able to do it, but I suspect most cant/wont. As a general rule, routers route directly from one node to another. along a way and only leave that way at a junction. There is no reason you couldnt make a walking router, which doesnt have the restrictions of having to follow a way, but at the moment this isnt how most (all?) of them work. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On 06/12/2010 21:06, David Murn wrote: On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 20:56 +, Dave F. wrote: - which, if all they know about is the perimeter, is probably a good thing. Eh? I thought you said you'd love it if it cut directly across an area?? They don't have to *follow* the perimeter just use it to find the best exit then join it to the entrance to the area with a straight line. And as was said during the thread, what happens if theres a lake, a building, a playground, etc in the middle of the straight line? As I said earlier in the thread, use multi-polygons. The router *should* be able to get around it (see earlier in the thread about the maths required to get around corners. Even without it should still be able to avoid blockages. If it can't do this then it's not really fit for purpose should be avoided. What about if the 'straight line' crosses outside of the area, say for example if you had an L-shaped area. Have you actually read the whole of this thread? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 21:18 +, Dave F. wrote: On 06/12/2010 21:06, David Murn wrote: On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 20:56 +, Dave F. wrote: - which, if all they know about is the perimeter, is probably a good thing. Eh? I thought you said you'd love it if it cut directly across an area?? They don't have to *follow* the perimeter just use it to find the best exit then join it to the entrance to the area with a straight line. And as was said during the thread, what happens if theres a lake, a building, a playground, etc in the middle of the straight line? As I said earlier in the thread, use multi-polygons. The router *should* be able to get around it (see earlier in the thread about the maths required to get around corners. Okay, so are we going around the perimeter of the polygon or are we taking a straight line cutting directly across an area? If it can't do this then it's not really fit for purpose should be avoided. Its 'not really fit' for your specific purpose, that doesnt mean you should be telling people to avoid it. Should we avoid all routers that dont take into account hgv and maxheight/maxwidth when routing, because its not fit for purpose of driving a big-rig? If you really want fuzzy routing in an application, feel free to add it, thats the whole point of opensource. However, please understand that most of us use routing software, expecting it not to try and take shortcuts across unmapped areas. The biggest problem is if an area is mapped, but the objects in that area arent. If the objects in the park were marked, including paths, then there would be no need for this discussion in the first place. This discussion came up with regards to routing across a park area that has paths but where no paths are mapped. What about if the 'straight line' crosses outside of the area, say for example if you had an L-shaped area. Have you actually read the whole of this thread? Yes, I did, infact I was one half of the monologue when the thread first started, so not only did I read the whole thread, I wrote half of it. Youre the first person to mention a straight line cutting across the area, since everyone explained the problems with it. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On 6 December 2010 20:44, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 08:55 -0500, Serge Wroclawski wrote: This should really be taking place on the legal list but nonetheless: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, So, this is awkward. According to my profile, I've agreed to the new Contributor Terms. I have no recollection of having done so, and obviously I don't want to agree to them while they're incompatible with Nearmap. If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. What about at changeover though? Im pretty sure Steve asked this question in relation to data in the future, not the present. It's incompatible even at present. You're not operating in a totally difference licensing mode, the work is licensed under CC-BY-SA until the switchover. What happens at switchover though? Does the work that he unwittingly contributed (but he now wishes to revoke, having become aware of his violation) get switched? If I was to put a tag into the database, which contained copyright information, and I wasnt aware it was copyrighted, should I not have the right to ask for the removal of that information? Does the OSMF need a DMCA statement from anyone who has accidently contributed invalid data, which they refuse to remove. I'm afraid the answer is you can delete the data yourself in that situation. So you actually have the right for the removal, but the easiest way to do that is to delete the data yourself, and if for some reason you don't want to do that or can't, then the Data Working Group normally takes care of it if they become aware of the problem. I do agree that it would be good to have some indication on the main screen, as to whether you have accepted the licence or not. The CT isn't a license, it's a terms of agreement. That means you've given OSMF a license to the data, and now you're asking them to revoke that license. ... because he has subsequently found out that he has no legal right to give that data to OSMF, and has infact commited an offence himself. The data that he contributed, that he's asking them to revoke, was invalid in the first place. It does raise one interesting question though (which I believe SHOULD be on legal-talk but Ill ask here since it fits with the rest of the thread). If a user becomes aware they have contributed data in this situation, and asks OSMF to remove the data or at least to not relicence the data, and OSMF doesnt remove or does relicence, does the fact the user asked for the data to be removed, remove any liability from the user for the violation? Does this put OSMF in a liable position, by refusing to remove data that it knows is in breach of copyright and its own terms? I guess it'd be up to Steve or the DWG to remove it even though the contributions may be compatible with some future version of the CT, but currently they're not and there's no way to unset the flag and no way to register a new account with original contributor terms :( Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On 06/12/2010 21:42, David Murn wrote: On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 21:18 +, Dave F. wrote: On 06/12/2010 21:06, David Murn wrote: On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 20:56 +, Dave F. wrote: - which, if all they know about is the perimeter, is probably a good thing. Eh? I thought you said you'd love it if it cut directly across an area?? They don't have to *follow* the perimeter just use it to find the best exit then join it to the entrance to the area with a straight line. And as was said during the thread, what happens if theres a lake, a building, a playground, etc in the middle of the straight line? As I said earlier in the thread, use multi-polygons. The router *should* be able to get around it (see earlier in the thread about the maths required to get around corners. Okay, so are we going around the perimeter of the polygon or are we taking a straight line cutting directly across an area? I think you've deliberately not taken on board many of the points made in this thread purely to be an argumentative PITA, so you're on your own. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 22:45:00 +0100 andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. What about at changeover though? Im pretty sure Steve asked this question in relation to data in the future, not the present. It's incompatible even at present. could you please explain this reasoning? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Glittermap
Just saw a tweet from Ed Parsons that might be relevant to glittermap! Use with care animated pins http://goo.gl/a3Q8g, could be the mapping equivalent of blink/blink So fun! Really addictive game, how can we feed them? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On 6 December 2010 23:23, Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote: If Nearmap is CC-BY-SA, they're compatible now. What about at changeover though? Im pretty sure Steve asked this question in relation to data in the future, not the present. It's incompatible even at present. could you please explain this reasoning? The assumption (from Nearmap's terms of use) is that the results of tracing the imagery become CC-By-SA. CC-By-SA is incompatible with the license you grant to the OSMF when you accept the new CT, I thought that was a generally accepted interpretation? I mean regardless of what OSMF does with the data now or in the future. Again this belongs on the other list but the misleading statement was made here. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Working for Mapquest as of today
Congrats! good luck! mike On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Emilie Laffray emi...@osmfoundation.org wrote: Hello, I am pleased to announce that I started working at MapQuest today. I want to let the OSM community know how excited I am about this new opportunity. I will continue in my capacity as an elected member of the OSMF board, and as Treasurer. I will be the technical product manager for the main site search team. I will be sure to update my biography on the foundation web site in the next few days. You know how busy it is when you start a new job! Emily Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 05/12/2010 22:07, Anthony wrote: On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Dave F.dave...@madasafish.com wrote: As long as there are external ways connecting to the area, a router should be able to find the appropriate entrances exits by tracking the perimeter. I thought they were already able to do that, but maybe not. Surely they can - just treat it like any other way. However, they don't treat leisure=park as a routable feature All routers? All areas? My understanding is that routers just ignore the area tags completely. So as far as the router knows, so a closed way marked with highway=residential/area=yes is treated exactly the same as any other way marked highway=residential. In other words, it routes along the perimeter, and not through the area itself So allowing routing around the perimeter of an area marked leisure=park would simply require treating leisure=park the same as, say highway=pedestrian. Not that I think this is a good idea. It probably isn't. But it's certainly possible. - which, if all they know about is the perimeter, is probably a good thing. Eh? I thought you said you'd love it if it cut directly across an area?? No, I didn't. They don't have to *follow* the perimeter just use it to find the best exit then join it to the entrance to the area with a straight line. Are you certain no routers can do that? Of course not. I'm not even certain I know of all routers that exist. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:42 PM, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: However, please understand that most of us use routing software, expecting it not to try and take shortcuts across unmapped areas. Who said anything about taking shortcuts across *unmapped* areas? How in the world would that work? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Working for Mapquest as of today
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Emilie Laffray emi...@osmfoundation.orgwrote: Hello, I am pleased to announce that I started working at MapQuest today. I want to let the OSM community know how excited I am about this new opportunity. I will continue in my capacity as an elected member of the OSMF board, and as Treasurer. I will be the technical product manager for the main site search team. I will be sure to update my biography on the foundation web site in the next few days. You know how busy it is when you start a new job! Yay!!! Congratulations! -Katie Emily Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com @filbertkm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: The CT isn't a license, it's a terms of agreement. That means you've given OSMF a license to the data, and now you're asking them to revoke that license. This would be (moral if not legal) equivalent of someone offering up a program under the GPL and then saying Nope, I want it proprietary. Well, more like the moral/legal equivalent of seeing your name on a list of people who offered up a program under the GPL and then saying Huh? I don't remember ever doing that. WTF? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Working for Mapquest as of today
Welcome! And not a moment too soon! -Randy On Dec 6, 2010 5:59 PM, Emilie Laffray emi...@osmfoundation.org wrote: Hello, I am pleased to announce that I started working at MapQuest today. I want to let the OSM community know how excited I am about this new opportunity. I will continue in my capacity as an elected member of the OSMF board, and as Treasurer. I will be the technical product manager for the main site search team. I will be sure to update my biography on the foundation web site in the next few days. You know how busy it is when you start a new job! Emily Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Explicit tagging of name language
On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 10:00:57AM +, Ed Avis wrote: In an attempt to fix this I have asked the maintainer of http://keepright.ipax.at/ to add a data check. Where a choice of languages exists for a name, then there should be one that corresponds to the main 'name' tag. In other words for the example above there was name=Scotland but not any name:XX=Scotland. One should be added indicating the language of this name, so that user interfaces can choose among the name:XX. Of course if an object has just a single name tag to be used for all languages, that's fine. This will atleast give bogus warnings with places like Brussels that are bilingual, where name actually contains the name in both languages (Dutch and French), and also has the language specific name for both languages. Kurt ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Someone already had a look at the Bing Terms of Use?
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:55 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: PR is more important than legal. As most people on this list know, with CC-BY-SA being next to invalid for Geodata in the US, any of the big US players could long have taken our data an run. Why haven't they? Because they also distribute the data outside the US? Because next to invalid isn't the same as invalid? Because if a license is invalid, then everything falls back to all rights reserved? Because they'd have to simultaneously take the position that their data is protected but ours isn't? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 05/12/2010 22:07, Anthony wrote: - which, if all they know about is the perimeter, is probably a good thing. Eh? I thought you said you'd love it if it cut directly across an area?? No, I didn't. Not in that context, anyway. If all a router knows about is the perimeter, it shouldn't be cutting through an area. If it understands areas, and the area is tagged as routable (implicitly or explicitly), then yeah, it should. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 18:21 -0500, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:42 PM, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: However, please understand that most of us use routing software, expecting it not to try and take shortcuts across unmapped areas. Who said anything about taking shortcuts across *unmapped* areas? How in the world would that work? I was using 'unmapped area', to mean an area marked as (for example) park, with no other features (ie, pond, trees, paths, barriers, roads) mapped. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Osmosis exception
Hi, On 06.12.2010 19:58, Carsten Nielsen wrote: Same situation with osmosis 0.38, only node no ways on talk-de had been similar reports. Frederik mentioned he will replace the version on the server. Stephan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] routing across open spaces
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:11 PM, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 18:21 -0500, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:42 PM, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: However, please understand that most of us use routing software, expecting it not to try and take shortcuts across unmapped areas. Who said anything about taking shortcuts across *unmapped* areas? How in the world would that work? I was using 'unmapped area', to mean an area marked as (for example) park, with no other features (ie, pond, trees, paths, barriers, roads) mapped. A more accurate term for them would be mapped areas. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk-nl] Announce: Bing Aerial image age viewer
Hi all, For those of you wondering when the Bing aerials were photographed for your area (like me), I created a viewer for that. Give it a try: http://mvexel.dev.openstreetmap.org/bing/ It uses the date given in a Bing custom HTTP header, which is often correct, but not always. Date error reports are accumulating here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Bing#Age_of_images What I'd like to do: * Add permalink for easy error reporting * Cache the date tiles to reduce the number of requests to the Bing servers. If someone would like to give these a go, ping me for source code etc. Best, Martijn Martijn van Exel +++...@rtijn.org laziness – impatience – hubris http://schaaltreinen.nl | http://martijnvanexel.nl | http://oegeo.wordpress.com/ twitter / skype: mvexel flickr: rhodes ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
[OSM-talk-nl] openstreetbugs / fietsrouteplanner
Beste, wij willen in onze fietsrouteplanners graag een aanmoediging opnemen de kaart te verbeteren als je ergens lokale kennis hebt. In eerste instantie een verwijzing naar www.openstreetmap.nl/content/zelf-de-kaart-bewerken.html, plus voor wie dat te ingewikkeld vindt een verwijzing naar www.openstreetbugs.org Heeft iemand ervaring met hoe lang meldingen op openstreetbugs blijven staan alvorens ze door iemand worden opgepikt? Groeten, Dirk --- Dipl. Geogr. Dirk Bussche Adviseur Geografische Toepassingen Goudappel Coffeng BV Snipperlingsdijk 4 Postbus 161 7400 AD Deventer The Netherlands t +31 (0)570 666 830 f +31 (0)570 666 888 i http://www.goudappel.nl aanwezig op kantoor: maandag, dinsdag en woensdag Goudappel Coffeng is gevestigd in Deventer, Den Haag, Eindhoven, Leeuwarden en Amsterdam Disclaimer De informatie opgenomen in dit bericht kan vertrouwelijk zijn en is uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Indien u dit bericht onterecht ontvangt, wordt u verzocht de inhoud niet te gebruiken en de afzender direct te informeren door het bericht te retourneren. De afzender sluit iedere aansprakelijkheid uit die voortvloeit uit elektronische verzending. ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] openstreetbugs / fietsrouteplanner
2010/12/6 dbuss...@goudappel.nl: wij willen in onze fietsrouteplanners graag een aanmoediging opnemen de kaart te verbeteren als je ergens lokale kennis hebt. In eerste instantie een verwijzing naar www.openstreetmap.nl/content/zelf-de-kaart-bewerken.html, plus voor wie dat te ingewikkeld vindt een verwijzing naar www.openstreetbugs.org Heeft iemand ervaring met hoe lang meldingen op openstreetbugs blijven staan alvorens ze door iemand worden opgepikt? Erg lang soms. Reden is, naast dat niet iedereen openstreetbugs bekijkt (zodat fouten worden verbeterd maar niet verwijderd), dat de opmerkingen vaak net te vaag zijn om zonder meer toe te voegen, en er dus alsnog iemand lokaal langs moet komen om de exacte situatie vast te stellen. En dat gebeurt niet zomaar overal. -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [Talk-br] Cartas do IBGE
Eu tinha pensado numa solução mais simples: converter a imagem para um PNG na maior resolução possível, tomar umas 3 ou 4 coordenadas a partir das imagens de satélite com a melhor precisão possível e traçar as ruas sobre as imagens usando um plugin apropriado para imagens não-georeferenciadas. []s Em 6 de dezembro de 2010 14:09, Ulf Mehlig ulf.meh...@gmx.net escreveu: Eu diria: depende ... Acredito que o IBGE permite o uso. Se estás falando em utilizar eles para digitalizar diretamente do PDF (após transferir em algum formato que possa ser utilizado em um SIG para georeferenciamento, instalar um servidor WMS etc.), as dificuldades técnicas provavelmente não compensam o esforço. Mas é bem possível utilizar estes mapas para planejar, por exemplo, o trabalho de campo com o GPS, checar nomes, ou algo parecido. Resta dizer que pelo menos na região norte a precisão destes mapas deixa a desejar (ouvi falar que o IBGE vai elaborar novo material a partir do atual censo). Ulf On Sun, 2010-12-05 at 17:08 -0300, Alexandre Parente Lima wrote: Encontrei esse material no site do IBGE, tem todas as cartas municipais E possível utilizar essas cartas com base na autorização que temos? ftp://geoftp.ibge.gov.br/MUE2007 -- Doutor em Ciências Ocultas, Filosofia Dramática, Pediatria Charlatânica, Biologia Dogmática e Astrologia Eletrônica. ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br -- Dr. Ulf Mehlig · Laboratório de Biologia Vegetal Instituto de Estudos Costeiros (IECOS) Universidade Federal do Pará, Campus Bragança · Brazil -- ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-br] Cartas do IBGE
Estou conseguindo coletar muitas ruas aqui da minha região usando as imagens do Bing. Será que esses PDFs não seriam úteis no que diz respeito aos nomes das ruas? Em 6 de dezembro de 2010 14:15, Arlindo Pereira openstreet...@arlindopereira.com escreveu: Eu tinha pensado numa solução mais simples: converter a imagem para um PNG na maior resolução possível, tomar umas 3 ou 4 coordenadas a partir das imagens de satélite com a melhor precisão possível e traçar as ruas sobre as imagens usando um plugin apropriado para imagens não-georeferenciadas. -- Rodrigo de Avila Analista de Desenvolvimento (51) 9733-3488 • rodr...@avila.net.br • www.avila.net.br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-br] Cartas do IBGE
É justamente o que ia perguntar. Seria possível utilizar as cartas somente como fonte dos nomes das ruas? 2010/12/6 Rodrigo de Avila rodr...@avila.net.br: Estou conseguindo coletar muitas ruas aqui da minha região usando as imagens do Bing. Será que esses PDFs não seriam úteis no que diz respeito aos nomes das ruas? Em 6 de dezembro de 2010 14:15, Arlindo Pereira openstreet...@arlindopereira.com escreveu: Eu tinha pensado numa solução mais simples: converter a imagem para um PNG na maior resolução possível, tomar umas 3 ou 4 coordenadas a partir das imagens de satélite com a melhor precisão possível e traçar as ruas sobre as imagens usando um plugin apropriado para imagens não-georeferenciadas. -- Rodrigo de Avila Analista de Desenvolvimento (51) 9733-3488 • rodr...@avila.net.br • www.avila.net.br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br -- Ronaldo Maia ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-is] Húsnúmer og GPS
Hér er allavega söluáróður frá umboðsaðila Garmin á Íslandi http://garmin.is/product/kort/islandskort.shtml Þar kemur m.a. fram að þeir hafi: * Hámarkshraða vega * Hæðarlínur með 20 metra millibili * Strandlínu * Vötn * Útlínur jökla, þjóðgarða og friðlanda * Gönguleiðir * Vegir og götur * Byggingar * Örnefni (byggð á prentuðum kortum LMÍ) * Skálar * Tjaldsvæði * Sundlaugar * POI Varðandi hámarkshraða vega, þá efast ég um að þeir hafi farið á hvern stað og lesið af skiltum. Þeir hljóta að hafa fengið upplýsingarnar einhvers staðar. Með kveðju / With regards, Svavar Kjarrval (sva...@kjarrval.is) s. 863-9900 On 2.12.2010 16:22, Kalli G wrote: Hér er það sem kemur fyrst upp í hugann í sambandi við hvað þyrfti til að gera kortið vel samkeppnishæft. En ég held að frítt kort með leiðsögu að húsnúmerum, helstu POI og einstenfugötum væri strax orðið vel samkeppnishæft bara fyrir það eitt að vera frítt. _* Fyrir navigation tæki:*_ * *Navigation* *Tells you where and when to turn. **Húsnúmer *** ***POI * *Points of Interests: Búðir, bensín, söfn, kirkjur, tjaldstæði, hótel, sundlaugar, áhugaverðir staðir. **Einstefnugötur** **Lane assist:** Guides you to the proper lane for navigation(example: Keep right, then turn right on ramp) **Speed limits*** *Displays the speed limit for the road you are driving on* ***Landmarks (Örnefgni)* *td. Fjöll, Hellar, Áningagrstaðir, göngubrýr **Gönguleiðir* *(Má taka gönguleiðir frá wikiloc.com http://wikiloc.com ??) **Terrain** kjarr, mýri, vatn sandur hraun og fl. **Hæðarlínur** **Find emergency help:** Includes Where am I? emergency locator that shows your coordinates, nearest address, and closest hospitals, police and fuel stations * *Eftirfarandi atriði *vantar* í íslensku kortunin (svo ég best viti)* Junction view* Realistically displays road signs and junctions on your route along with arrows that indicate the proper lane for navigation * **Proximity Alerts or Alert zones** *Lætur þig vita þegar þú nálgast umferðareftirlitsmyndavél (það væri hægt að útfæra þetta á einbreiðar brýr eða hættulega vegkafla líka. Blidhæð, krapparbeykur, börn á leið í skóla.. you name it) *Útlínur Húsa*. *Akreinavísar*: (hotlinks) http://i1.lelong.com.my/UserImages/Items/0904/09/digital...@13.jpg http://f.imagehost.org/0706/505.jpg http://www.letsgomobile.org/images/news/garmin/citroen-navigation-garmin.jpg http://gbr.garmin.com/3700/photoreal.html *Útlínur húsa og módel*: (hotlinks) http://salestores.com/stores/images/images_747/0100071500.jpg http://www.garmin-3790t.org/buy%20garmin%20nuvi%203790T.jpg http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/m_peden/sc-01-lg.jpg 2010/12/1 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is mailto:sva...@kjarrval.is Ég myndi elska það að rústa Garmin kortinu í samkeppni! Er hægt að komast í lista einhvers staðar yfir fídusa sem eru í boði á Íslandskortinu sem R. Sigmundsson gefur út? Síðan gætum við athugað hvað Garmin tækin styðja og nýtt það í ystu æsar (eftir áhuga okkar). Gætum byrjað að gera eitt hverfi „fullkomið“ og séð hvernig það virkar. Með kveðju, Svavar Kjarrval On 1.12.2010 21:58, Karl Georg wrote: Hæ, nú þar sem bing kortin auðvelda okkur til muna að setja innn hús og húsnúmer númer inn í OSM langar mig að forvitnast um eftirfarandi atriði: Geta helstu gps bíltæki birt útlínur húsa ásamt húsnúmerum? Eða er bara boðið uppá húsnúmera routing án auka grafíks eins og við þekkjum td. úr garmin kortunum? Annað, í sumum tækjum eru 3d módel af þekktum byggingum, geta osm kort boðið upp á þessháttar skraut ? Eitt enn, Getum við haft svona akreinavísa fyrir leiðsögutæki ? Þar sem td þeim sem ætla uppá bústaðaveg (Frá hvaða götu sem er.), er bent á að halda sér á ákveðinni akgrein. Semsagt, getum við ekki gert samkeppnishæf gps kort við íslenku garmin kortin hvað varðar ýmsa aukafídusa ? Kv. Kalli ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is -- Kveðja, Karl Georg ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Fasteignaskrá
2010/12/6 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is: Var að hringja í Fasteignaskrá og vildi forvitnast hvort við gætum fengið GPS hnit úr staðfangaskrá fyrir allt landið en fékk það svar að það myndi kosta um 200 þúsund krónur. Þess vegna datt mér í hug hvort við gætum reynt að fá gögnin ókeypis og án ósanngjarnra skilyrða. Ein leið sem mér datt í hug væri að biðja formlega um afhendingu gagnanna án endurgjalds (eða gegn sanngjörnu úrvinnslugjaldi). Ef beiðninni yrði neitað gætum við sent stjórnsýslukæru í von um að hún yrði samþykkt. Það er engin trygging fyrir árangri en mér finnst að við ættum allavega að reyna. Hljómar vel. Ef við myndum borga fyrir þessi gögn í dag (þ.e. þessar 200.000 kr) myndu gögnin vera samhæf OSM skilmálunum. Þ.e. er þetta eingöngu úrvinnslugjald, eða er þetta afnotagjald fyrir gögn háð ákveðnum skilmálum? Kosturinn yrði sá að við fengjum GPS hnit fyrir (nær) öll hús á landinu sem gæti sparað okkur mikla vinnu í framtíðinni, gætum áætlað staðsetningu ómældra gatna (betur) og flýtt fyrir því að fólk noti OSM Garmin kortið frekar en það keypta. Það væri frábært að fá þessi hnit. Það var svipað import á húsnúmerum í Færeyjum sem hefur hjálpað mikið til. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-de] White spots RELOADED
Hallo Gary. Am Samstag 04 Dezember 2010, 10:34:33 schrieb Gary68: ich nehme jetzt noch die typen farm, locality und region raus und dann läuft das immer anfang des monats, wie auch unmapped. gerade läuft eine aktualisierung... oder auf anfrage! Wirklich, die Liste ist super. Ich habe am Wochenende gleich mal einige Orte in Ba-Wü abgearbeitet. Allerdings stören die locality-Objekte schon ein wenig, dann da ist halt einfach manchmal nichts in der Nähe. Und wenn, dann oft nur Waldwege, die man im Luftbild nicht ausreichend genau erkennt. Daher die Bitte: Könntest du die White-Spots für Ba-Wü bitte mit der neuen Konfiguration neu erzeugen lassen? Idealer Weise mit einem Datensatz der die Änderungen von Sonntag noch drin hat, damit die ersten paar gleich weg fallen. Danke schonmal für die großartige Auswertung! Ein paar False-Positives gibt es immer wieder duch Zusammenschlussgemeinden, deren village-Node eben zwischen den Ortschaften in der Pampa liegt. Gibt es dafür schon eine Idee, wie man diese Nodes von normalen Ortschaften differenzieren kann? Gruß, Bernd -- You're smart when you only believe half of what you hear. You're wise when you know which half to believe. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Bing tch
Zitat Wolfgang: [ Wegpunkte exakt vermessen] Die Genauigkeit wird irgendwo zwischen 1 und 2 m liegen. Genauer ginge es mit dgps-fähigen Geräten. Letzte Woche habe ich auf einem Garmin GPSmap 60CSx in Verbindung mit einer externen Antenne (Gilsson MCX) fuer einen Wegpunkt eine geschaezte Genauigkeit von 0,3 Metern angezeigt bekommen. Allerdings hab ich die Messung fast 12 Stunden laufen lassen. Bei ca. 30 Minuten Messdauer bekomme ich manchmal unter guten Bedingungen Angaben bis zu 0,6 Metern. Die Lage des 0,3-Meter-Punktes stimmt im betroffenen Gebiet ausnahmsweise relativ genau mit den Bing-Luftbildern ueberein. -- Michael ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] White spots RELOADED
Am Montag 06 Dezember 2010, 09:17:24 schrieb Bernd Wurst: Allerdings stören die locality-Objekte schon ein wenig Jetzt bin ich verwirrt. Ich bin mir sicher, dass ich gestern auch mal die Seite reloaded hatte. Heute allerdings hat die Seite da da im Seitenkopf: | file ../../osmdata/baden-wuerttemberg.osm Sun Nov 28 08:16:56 2010 [...] | Excluded place types: island region farm locality D.h. du hast es gestern neu laufen lassen mit einem nicht ganz aktuellen Datensatz? Okay, dann reduziert sich die Bitte auf einen aktuelleren Datensatz. Aber ist dann nicht mehr so dringend, ich kann ja da weiter machen wo ich aufgehört habe. Gruß, Bernd -- Ich hab mich immer gefragt, ob es einen Gott gibt. Jetzt weiß ich es. Es gibt einen. Und das bin ich! - Homer S. in Homer the Great/Homer der Auserwählte (2F09) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Bing tch
Hallo, Am Montag 06 Dezember 2010 09:20:40 schrieb Michael Buege: Zitat Wolfgang: [ Wegpunkte exakt vermessen] Die Genauigkeit wird irgendwo zwischen 1 und 2 m liegen. Genauer ginge es mit dgps-fähigen Geräten. Letzte Woche habe ich auf einem Garmin GPSmap 60CSx in Verbindung mit einer externen Antenne (Gilsson MCX) fuer einen Wegpunkt eine geschaezte Genauigkeit von 0,3 Metern angezeigt bekommen. Allerdings hab ich die Messung fast 12 Stunden laufen lassen. Bei ca. 30 Minuten Messdauer bekomme ich manchmal unter guten Bedingungen Angaben bis zu 0,6 Metern. Die Lage des 0,3-Meter-Punktes stimmt im betroffenen Gebiet ausnahmsweise relativ genau mit den Bing-Luftbildern ueberein. Ich bin immer etwas zurückhaltend mit der Genauigkeit, die das GPS anzeigt. Ich messe mit einem Colorado, das hat einen Modus, in dem ein Messpunkt gemittelt werden kann aus mehreren unabhängigen Messungen. Ich gehe ebenfalls mit einer externen Antenne auf einer 3-m-Stange raus und lasse ihn auf dem Messpunkt mitteln. Das dauert je nach Empfangsbedingungen meistens um die 30 Sekunden, manchmal bis 5 Minuten. Nach Ablauf von mindestens 90 Minuten wiederhole ich die Messung. Nach 10 Messungen ist in der Regel eine Genauigkeit von ca. 1m erreicht. Nachprüfen kann man das, indem man mehrere Messpunkte in Sichtweite setzt oder vom Messpunkt aus terrestrisch die Entfernung zu Punkten bestimmt, die auch im Luftbild gut zu erkennen sind. Die Differenzen zwischen Wirklichkeit und Eintragung im Luftbild müssen dann innerhalb der Grenzen liegen. Gruß, Wolfgang ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neue Wochennotiz Nr.20
Vielen Dank! Lg ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neue Wochennotiz Nr.20
Am 04.12.2010 23:58, schrieb Gehling Marc: Wie jede Woche haben wir die Neuigkeiten aus dem OSM-Universum in der Wochennotiz zusammengetragen: http://blog.openstreetmap.de/2010/12/osm-wochennotiz-nr-20/ Viel Spaß beim Lesen! Danke, gibt es irgendwo Erläuterungen zu den verlinkten Videos (Codeswarm, Vandalism/Hidden Message) ? Christian ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Bing und SlippyMap
* geo.osm geo@googlemail.com [2010-12-03 17:11]:
Hab gerade nach der Anleitung mein gut funktionierendes WMS (auch mit Bing)
und slippymap ausgenockt und imaginary als einziges Plugin aktiviert.
so nu is Bing auch weg, auch in den Einstellungen und der Auswahl der
diversen wms plugins ist Bing nirgends zu finden, so was mach ich nu...?
gibt es denn in diesem Zusammenhang auch ne Möglichkeit die Einträge
aus dem WMS-Plugin zu speichen und ins Imagery-Plugin übernehmen?
Sonst müßte ich mir die vorher von Hand mal rauskopieren.
Hallo Alex,
ich mache das quick und dirty mit dem folgenden Skript:
#!/usr/bin/perl
# usage: wms2imagery.pl preferences.old preferences.new
my $in = shift;
die file not found: $in unless $in -r $in;
open IN, $in or die cannot read $in;
my $count = 0;
while (IN)
{
if (/^imagery\.layers\.(\d+)=/)
{
my $t = $1;
$count = $t if $t $count;
print $_;
}
elsif (/^wmslayers\.\d+=(.+)$/)
{
my ($name, $url) = split(/\036/, $1);
my $type = wms;
if ($url =~ /^(\w+):(http:.+)$/)
{
$type = $1;
$url = $2;
}
printf imagery.layers.%d=%s\036%s:%s\n, ++$count, $name, $type,
$url;
}
else
{
print $_;
}
}
close IN;
Viele Grüße
Alex Pleiner
--
Alex Pleiner plei...@zeitform.de zeitform Internet Dienste OHG
Tel./Fax: +49 (0) 6151 155-635 / -634 Fraunhoferstraße 5
PGP S/MIME: http://key.zeitform.de/ap 64283 Darmstadt, Germany
Reg: HRA 6898 (Amtsgericht Darmstadt) http://www.zeitform.de
___
Talk-de mailing list
Talk-de@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neue Wochennotiz Nr.20
Am 06.12.2010 um 11:11 schrieb Chris66: Am 04.12.2010 23:58, schrieb Gehling Marc: Wie jede Woche haben wir die Neuigkeiten aus dem OSM-Universum in der Wochennotiz zusammengetragen: http://blog.openstreetmap.de/2010/12/osm-wochennotiz-nr-20/ Viel Spaß beim Lesen! Danke, gibt es irgendwo Erläuterungen zu den verlinkten Videos (Codeswarm, Vandalism/Hidden Message) ? Ich glaube es gibt nicht mehr, als das was unter den Video steht. Der Codeswarm ist eben dieser typische Codeswarm, denn man mit einem einfachen Skript erstellen kann und der hier für das Repository der Potlatch 2 Entwicklung erstellt wurde. Bei dem anderen Video steht lustigerweise mal „Ban Potlatch!“ dort, wie das zustande kam weiß ich aber nicht. -Jonas ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neue Wochennotiz Nr.20
Am 06.12.2010 15:08, schrieb Jonas K.: Danke, gibt es irgendwo Erläuterungen zu den verlinkten Videos (Codeswarm, Vandalism/Hidden Message) ? Ich glaube es gibt nicht mehr, als das was unter den Video steht. Der Codeswarm ist eben dieser typische Codeswarm, denn man mit einem einfachen Skript erstellen kann und der hier für das Repository der Potlatch 2 Entwicklung erstellt wurde. Hier hab ich zumindest 'ne kleine Erläuterung gefunden: http://www.michaelogawa.com/code_swarm/ Bei dem anderen Video steht lustigerweise mal „Ban Potlatch!“ dort, wie das zustande kam weiß ich aber nicht. Also wenn die aufblitzenden Quadrate Edits sind, dann hat jemand die Tigerkorrektur Edits so über die USA verteilt, dass der Schriftzug BAN POTLATCH entstand. Chris ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] [Projekt WissenWert] Wikimedia Deut schland unterstützt 2 OSM-Projekte
Wikimedia Deutschland hat heute das Ergebnis des WissensWert-Wettbewerbes bekanntgegegen [1]. Zwei der 8 Gewinner haben mit OSM zu tun: Luftbilder für OpenStreetMap von OSM-Stammtisch Dortmund (Marc Gehling, Olaf Kotzte) [2] und Barrierefreies Onlineportal für Karten- und Routing-Services von Annette Thurow [3] Meinen Glückwunsch an die Preisträger :-) Raimond. [1] http://blog.wikimedia.de/2010/12/06/wissenswert-ergebnis-wir-unterstuetzen-acht-mutige-projekte/ [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WissensWert/40_-_Luftbilder_f%C3%BCr_OpenStreetMap [3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WissensWert/59_-_Barrierefreies_Onlineportal_f%C3%BCr_Karten-_und_Routing-Services_mit_der_Schwerpunkt-Zielgruppe_blinder_Fu%C3%9Fg%C3%A4nger signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Bing und SlippyMap
dank dir für das Skript. Unter Windows wird die Umsetzung ja schon wieder zu nem Geduldsspiel. Da ist es fast einfacher ich lege im Imagery die Einträge neu an und kopiere mir dazu die vorher per copy/paste gesicherten Einträge zurück. -- schönen Gruß Alex ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] White spots RELOADED
hi ba-wü kommt nachher, wenn ich zu hause bin neu mit daten von heute/geofabrik. sollte also drin sein. zu dem anderen problem unten: alle false positives wird man nicht rausbekommen, oder? oder hat jemand eine idee, wie das zu lösen ist? ciao gerhard On Mon, 2010-12-06 at 09:17 +0100, Bernd Wurst wrote: Hallo Gary. Am Samstag 04 Dezember 2010, 10:34:33 schrieb Gary68: ich nehme jetzt noch die typen farm, locality und region raus und dann läuft das immer anfang des monats, wie auch unmapped. gerade läuft eine aktualisierung... oder auf anfrage! Wirklich, die Liste ist super. Ich habe am Wochenende gleich mal einige Orte in Ba-Wü abgearbeitet. Allerdings stören die locality-Objekte schon ein wenig, dann da ist halt einfach manchmal nichts in der Nähe. Und wenn, dann oft nur Waldwege, die man im Luftbild nicht ausreichend genau erkennt. Daher die Bitte: Könntest du die White-Spots für Ba-Wü bitte mit der neuen Konfiguration neu erzeugen lassen? Idealer Weise mit einem Datensatz der die Änderungen von Sonntag noch drin hat, damit die ersten paar gleich weg fallen. Danke schonmal für die großartige Auswertung! Ein paar False-Positives gibt es immer wieder duch Zusammenschlussgemeinden, deren village-Node eben zwischen den Ortschaften in der Pampa liegt. Gibt es dafür schon eine Idee, wie man diese Nodes von normalen Ortschaften differenzieren kann? Gruß, Bernd ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] [Projekt WissenWert] Wikimedia Deuts chland unterstützt 2 OSM-Projekte
ausgezeichnet!!! Super! mike 2010/12/6 Raimond Spekking raimond.spekk...@gmail.com: Wikimedia Deutschland hat heute das Ergebnis des WissensWert-Wettbewerbes bekanntgegegen [1]. Zwei der 8 Gewinner haben mit OSM zu tun: Luftbilder für OpenStreetMap von OSM-Stammtisch Dortmund (Marc Gehling, Olaf Kotzte) [2] und Barrierefreies Onlineportal für Karten- und Routing-Services von Annette Thurow [3] Meinen Glückwunsch an die Preisträger :-) Raimond. [1] http://blog.wikimedia.de/2010/12/06/wissenswert-ergebnis-wir-unterstuetzen-acht-mutige-projekte/ [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WissensWert/40_-_Luftbilder_f%C3%BCr_OpenStreetMap [3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WissensWert/59_-_Barrierefreies_Onlineportal_f%C3%BCr_Karten-_und_Routing-Services_mit_der_Schwerpunkt-Zielgruppe_blinder_Fu%C3%9Fg%C3%A4nger ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
