Re: The Bat! 4.0
On Friday, October 12, 2007 @ 6:16:34 AM [-0700], Henk M. de Bruijn wrote: What's the situation? Any bètatesting for this version or... Hah! Had me going there for a second. Saw the subject line and thought that 4.0 was ready for download! -- Matt Using 3.99.20 (BETA) on Windows Vista 6.0 Build 6000 () Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
The Bat! 4.0
What's the situation? Any bètatesting for this version or... -- Henk M. de Bruijn __ The Bat! E-Mail System version 3.99.24 Pro on Windows XP SP2 AntispamSniper for the Bat! 2.6.1.2 pgpKc5RzXsnku.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Martin, What's the situation? Any bètatesting for this version or... yes, it will be, You must wait, work in progress release date I'm more interested if features promised for v2 will be available for v4. Or if this is just another milk the cows release. Sorry for being so optimistic about that. Hasn't everyone seen this? Well maybe not, so here it is from the Ritlabs website: The largest-scale changes were made in The Bat!’s interface. Users will see a totally new program. Together with Artem Gorbunov design bureau we created a modern interface that facilitates e-communication via The Bat! 4.0 and further releases. The new design affects every single item of the program from the main window to the smallest dialog boxes. However, we left the classic interface of the program for our most devoted users. The work with macros is significantly simplified. The Bat! was always renowned for its wide support of macros used for message templates and filters creation, but this option was often neglected. In The Bat! 4.0 macros become generally accessible and understandable. Now each group of macros has its own color, each macro is presented in the user’s language instead of macro language (for example, “Recipient’s first name” instead of “%TOFName”). We hope that this new form of macros processing will help every user of The Bat! 4.0 and further versions in creating message templates and filters. The Bat! 4.0 is equipped with an improved account wizard. Now it creates the user accounts automatically basing on the e-mail addresses introduced by users. There is no more need to key in the addresses of incoming and outgoing mail servers and other information. Users just provide their e-mail – then The Bat! 4.0 makes everything on its own. In addition, we introduced message labels in the new version. If in previous releases users only had possibility to add a flag to the message in order to mark it, then The Bat! 4.0 gives users a new option of creating labels with one or many keywords (for example, “Work”, “Advice”, “Comment” etc.). This l abel is seen in “Subject” field. Users also have at their disposal a wide color pattern and can bind any color with any label. -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Peter, On 12-10-2007 21:15, you wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: MS I think that a state of the art modern interface should come with MS state of the art features like IMAP and newsgroups ability. In case of IMAP I have to agree. Me too. -- greeting Best regards /greeting author Peter Fjelsten /author thebat version 3.99.3 Pro /thebat versionextras MyGate, AVG /extras env. 2 POP3, 14 IMAP (Courier) 1 IMAP (Exchange 6.5), 200K+ msgs. /env. os Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 /os Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hi Vili! Friday, October 12, 2007, 6:06:15 PM: What's the situation? Any bètatesting for this version or... yes, it will be, You must wait, work in progress :-) release date I'm more interested if features promised for v2 will be available for v4. Or if this is just another milk the cows release. Sorry for being so optimistic about that. ;-) -- Regards, Martin The Bat! v3.99.24 powered by Windows Server 2003 R2 Standard Edition 5.2 Build 3790 Service Pack 2 ConCarne cooks best since 1998 http://www.concarne.org smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hi Gleason! Hasn't everyone seen this? Well maybe not, so here it is from the Ritlabs website: The largest-scale changes were made in The Bat!’s interface. Users will see a totally new program. [...] Sounds fancy and supports exactly what I wanted to say: A lot of cosmetic fixes and some fancy bright new colorful stuff but old issues aren't fixed. I think that a state of the art modern interface should come with state of the art features like IMAP and newsgroups ability. The last time I tried IMAP it did not work as it should, see here in the group. I especially had problems with filters and stuff like this. Also some other issues which makes IMAP completly unusable for me. Funny is that I paid for IMAP when I bought v2. Plus plus plus. But I'm really tired of talking this all and all over again. I'm complaining every six months or so about the company's politics and the priority of issues, bugs and stuff like this and it seems that I am the almost the only one who isn't happy with this. I agree that the TB interface should be state of the art. This is important for a lot of (new) customers. But don't forget the tons of to-do's you can see in the bug tracker and in the list of long promised features. -- Regards, Martin The Bat! v3.99.24 powered by Windows Server 2003 R2 Standard Edition 5.2 Build 3790 Service Pack 2 ConCarne cooks best since 1998 http://www.concarne.org smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hello all, Friday, October 12, 2007, Peter Hampf wrote: What I want is a sota eMail client, not more and not less. No newsgroup support and no mini browser and nothing that cooks my coffee or answers my phone. o-) newsgroup is not planned, from my POV, this is almost dead service. -- Bye Marek Mikus Czech support of The Bat! http://www.thebat.cz Using the best The Bat! 3.99.24 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 with MyMacros,XMP,AnotherMacros, NOD32 Antivirus plugin and AntispamSniper v 2.6.1.5 Notebook Toshiba, Core2 Duo 1.83 GHz, 1 GB RAM Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hello all, Friday, October 12, 2007, Henk M. de Bruijn wrote: What's the situation? Any bètatesting for this version or... yes, it will be, You must wait, work in progress :-) -- Bye Marek Mikus Czech support of The Bat! http://www.thebat.cz Using the best The Bat! 3.99.24 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 with MyMacros,XMP,AnotherMacros, NOD32 Antivirus plugin and AntispamSniper v 2.6.1.5 Notebook Toshiba, Core2 Duo 1.83 GHz, 1 GB RAM Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hello TheBat Beta List Members!!! Someday, and that was in evening, Gleason wrote something like this: yes, it will be, You must wait, work in progress release date I'm more interested if features promised for v2 will be available for v4. Or if this is just another milk the cows release. Sorry for being so optimistic about that. Hasn't everyone seen this? Well maybe not, so here it is from the RITLabs website: ... So 1. GUI - like in v3 upgrade 2. Account wizard - it works now? .dsi files hmmm ... ?? 3. message labels For me nothing special. I forgot! I can add: gmail aka theba.net. But still for me that is not major version. What normal user expect is: 1. HTML templates 2. HTML pictures 3. Account like in OE (example: one Incoming folder for couple Accounts) 4. Improved backup and folder/message maintenance (.bin files problems) 5. RSS native support 6. better IMAP 7. better calendar and exchange support 8. Linux version 9. ldap v3 with TLS/SSL What I expect: 1. Bugfixes 2. News and RSS native support 3. HTML tamplates and pictures 4. PocketPC version with synchronization 5. Mouse gestures 6. ACAP implementation for auto-choose best secure connection to server -- Thanks and best regards, Sebastian Murawski Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
What's the situation? Any bètatesting for this version or... yes, it will be, You must wait, work in progress :-) release date -- Vili Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: thebat.net connection
Hello Peter, Thursday, October 11, 2007, 8:07:38 PM, you wrote: Peter Hello Jim, Peter Thursday, October 11, 2007, 7:27:57 PM, you wrote: Jim Hi Peter, Jim You just need to enable pop for you your account in settings Jim once Jim logged into www.thebat.net... Jim See Below... Jim Jim Best Regards, Jim Jim Jim - Forwarded Original message header -- Jim From: Jim Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim Received: Sunday, Sunday, October 07, 2007, at 10:24 AM Jim To: Maxim Masiutin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim CC: tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com Jim Subject: Enable POP access Jim From: Maxim Masiutin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Enable POP access Hello Tbbeta, Unfrotunately, until we resolve this issue, you will have to login once via the web interface to www.thebat.net to enable POP access. Once you login and agree to the terms, you will see this screen http://www.google.com/mail/help/images/screenshots/enable_pop/pop.gif under Forwarding and POP task. I hope that this screen is quite self-explaining. Jim Hi Maxim, JimThis is about as simple as it could be... @thebat.net set up Jim and Jimworking just dandy :) Jim Best Regards, Jim Jim Jim -- Jim Jim Brown is [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim Cisco Systems-NTMG 1414 Massachusetts Avenue, Jim Boxborough, MA, 01719 Jim Principal Solutions EngineerWork/Mobile: 508-320-2302 Jim FAX: 877-541-8365 E-Page: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim Home:508-653-3719 76 Pemberton Road, Wayland, MA, Jim 01778 Jim - Original message text -- Jim Received: Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 7:22 PM Jim From: Peter Kerekes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jim To: tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com Jim CC: Jim Subject: thebat.net connection Jim Jim Hello, Jim I set up an account with thebat.net - I think - successfully. I Jim could send Jim a mail from Peter my personal account through my IP to bat.net. Jim However cannot Jim receive/send mail from the BATNETaccount established in BAT. Jim I can go to my gmail account through the browser and found my Jim letter. Jim However If I use the account BATNET, which set up in the BAT Jim software, to Jim connect to gmail I get this error message: C: Connected to pop.gmail.com, port 995 [14:56:56] S: +OK Gpop ready for requests from 206.126.82.213 38pf2115276wrl [14:56:56] C: USER [EMAIL PROTECTED] [14:56:56] S: +OK send PASS [14:56:56] C: PASS xxxyyy [14:56:56] S: -ERR [SYS/PERM] Your account is not enabled for POP access. Please visit your Gmail settings page and enable your account for POP access. Jim I have no idea what is wrong. I think I did everything according Jim to Jim instruction. I set up a new password for this account, it is Jim different Jim from the password I use for my regular Peter account which goes Jim through Jim my IP account Jim Jim I hope someone can guide me to the right direction. Peter Thanks. It works. Yes it works to receive messages to @thebat.net. However I cannot sent any from @thebat.net. Looked around but could not find anything on the website not in the group. Could you advise me on this? -- Best regards, Peter The BAT 3.99.24, Windows XP, Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Marek Mikus wrote: 8. Linux version I do not think, we will ever see The Bat! under Linux, if will be developed in Delphi. And really do not think, You can do business in this platform, nobody wants to pay for apps, because everything is free. The Bat! is the one application I would really like to pay for on Linux... However, I must confess I might not be representative of the vast majority of Linux users, who would not even try The Bat! unless it is GPL or some license alike, which, sadly, is never gonna happen... Really too bad :( Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hello all, Friday, October 12, 2007, Sebastian Murawski wrote: So 1. GUI - like in v3 upgrade afaik we can expect huge change in V4, nothing small as themes in V3 2. Account wizard - it works now? .dsi files hmmm ... ?? 3. message labels For me nothing special. I forgot! I can add: gmail aka theba.net. But still for me that is not major version. do You really expect all features in 4.0? Do You expect major changes between 3.99 and 4.00? ;-) What normal user expect is: 1. HTML templates afaik we can expect them next year in 4.x 2. HTML pictures I hope we will see it in 4.0 already. 3. Account like in OE (example: one Incoming folder for couple Accounts) nice, but I do not expect this. And You can use common filters, do not You? 4. Improved backup and folder/message maintenance (.bin files problems) 5. RSS native support 6. better IMAP 7. better calendar and exchange support afaik all were planned for 4.x, but do not expect them in 4.0. For V4, new Microed with Unicode support is developed, as I expect, it will be introduced in 4.x too. 8. Linux version I do not think, we will ever see The Bat! under Linux, if will be developed in Delphi. And really do not think, You can do business in this platform, nobody wants to pay for apps, because everything is free. -- Bye Marek Mikus Czech support of The Bat! http://www.thebat.cz Using the best The Bat! 3.99.24 under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 with MyMacros,XMP,AnotherMacros, NOD32 Antivirus plugin and AntispamSniper v 2.6.1.5 Notebook Toshiba, Core2 Duo 1.83 GHz, 1 GB RAM Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[3]: The Bat! 4.0
Alto, Guten Morgen, MS I'm complaining every six months or so about the company's MS politics and the priority of issues, bugs and stuff like this and MS it seems that I am the almost the only one who isn't happy with MS this. I'd rephrase that: You're one of the few that haven't given up yet. The others do not see it necessary to beg for features that were guaranteed years ago and have already been payed for. They have resigned to the fact that they have been ripped off. I guess I am going to have to disagree with that. TB Imap is not perfect, but it is the pick of my list which includes: Thunderbird Mulberry Becky Sylpheed Eudora (and Penelope) Pegasus Gemini Courrier Pocomail TB is the pick, because it is the most well developed Imap implementation with the most configurable interface, with tolerable html in email display. It is true that Mulberry's Imap is more complete, but I don't find it more trouble free. It seems to me that the real issues that TB must confront right now, as a commercial product, are the successes of Thunderbird and Gmail. Thunderbird succeeds, it seems to me, primarily on the basis of flash and glitter. It's email handling tools are years behind many others, which is natural since it has had a lot less time to develop them. So, yes, a little glitter and flash for TB, please. And let's get TB interfaced with Gmail, so users that are attracted to that product find they can enhance it with TB, rather than see TB as a lesser choice. -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Hi Marek, On Friday, October 12, 2007 at 3:58:04 PM you wrote: 8. Linux version MM I do not think, we will ever see The Bat! under Linux, if will be developed MM in Delphi. And really do not think, You can do business in this platform, MM nobody wants to pay for apps, because everything is free. Not everyone who uses Linux does so full time. Ritlabs could make a stripped down version of TB! for Linux. I wouldn't mind! grin -- Regards, Maggie It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it. -George W. Bush Emailing with The Bat! 3.99.24 Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Guten Morgen, MS I'm complaining every six months or so about the company's MS politics and the priority of issues, bugs and stuff like this and MS it seems that I am the almost the only one who isn't happy with MS this. I'd rephrase that: You're one of the few that haven't given up yet. The others do not see it necessary to beg for features that were guaranteed years ago and have already been payed for. They have resigned to the fact that they have been ripped off. -- MfG, Altomailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpJntCwDQMJE.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[4]: The Bat! 4.0
Guten Morgen, GP TB Imap is not perfect, but it is the pick of my list which GP includes: GP Thunderbird GP Mulberry GP [...] You'll notice that I'm still using v3.0.1.33 to write this message. Besides some interface issues (some of which have been intentionally broken by RIT, we've been through that) every version after this has IMAP tasks hanging, on occasion corrupts message base files, produces AVs (both reproducable and sporadic) and exhibits generally low performance in terms of operation speed, response to user interaction and resource (esp. memory) demands. At least the errors of .33 are known and can be avoided by not using certain options. TheBat hasn't been out of beta state since v1.66. -- MfG, Altomailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpQJS4WiEuIH.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Re[3]: The Bat! 4.0
Gleason wrote: TB is the pick, because it is the most well developed Imap implementation with the most configurable interface, with tolerable html in email display. It is true that Mulberry's Imap is more complete, but I don't find it more trouble free. TheBat!'s IMAP handling is crude and unpredictable. I would never trust it in a production environment. The HTML display is not tolerable until we have the choice to display images. It seems to me that the real issues that TB must confront right now, as a commercial product, are the successes of Thunderbird and Gmail. Thunderbird succeeds, it seems to me, primarily on the basis of flash and glitter. It's email handling tools are years behind many others, which is natural since it has had a lot less time to develop them. Thunderbird is what I chose to put my company on. The IMAP implementation is great. It is not complete, but average users won't notice unless they want to drag out the RFC :). At least I can save my sent mail to my IMAP sent items box, I can rely on the counters, I can leave it on as long as I want and it won't hang, I can filter my account and my number one pet peeve. I can mark items as deleted and they don't disappear from the inbox (when we used TB! this was the number one trouble call, accidental deletion) with Thunderbird, it is just lined through, the user can right click and undelete, no more hysterical calls. undelete is possible in TheBat!, it just isn't intuitive to the average user, gone is gone to them. :) As others have pointed out, we were promised IMAP in v2, we still do not have a production ready IMAP client. I would move my company back over to TheBat! in a heartbeat if IMAP was working and reliable. But I won't even use it for my personal IMAP account at home. Sorry if the formatting is off in this e-msil, I am at a friends house using Fastmail's web interface... -- Mike Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hi Mike, On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:59:27 -0500 UTC (10/12/2007, 6:59 PM -0500 UTC my time), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: t TheBat!'s IMAP handling is crude and unpredictable. I would never trust t it in a production environment. The HTML display is not tolerable until t we have the choice to display images. I have only partially quoted your well thought out and purposeful email regarding IMAP. I have been saying this for years, and it still is unpredictable. All this afternoon and yesterday, I am seeing an old bug recur over and over. This is where you click on a new email, and there is no message body. Hence, either this email is no longer there, or there is some other issue. The way to correct this is to Clear Catch Now... my question is why is this necessary on TB!'s implementation of IMAP? No other client requires me to clear the cache to read email properly at any time. It requires unnecessary steps just to read mail. It is bothersome, troubling, and tells me that IMAP is still not right. I cannot trust TB! IMAP for production use. -- Gary Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Gary, All this afternoon and yesterday, I am seeing an old bug recur over and over. This is where you click on a new email, and there is no message body. Hence, either this email is no longer there, or there is some other issue. The way to correct this is to Clear Catch Now... my question is why is this necessary on TB!'s implementation of IMAP? No other client requires me to clear the cache to read email properly at any time. It requires unnecessary steps just to read mail. It is bothersome, troubling, and tells me that IMAP is still not right. I cannot trust TB! IMAP for production use. Yes, that was a great annoyance. I haven't seen it for a long time. When TB was doing that to me, I stepped down a level to Mulberry. -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[5]: The Bat! 4.0
TB is the pick, because it is the most well developed Imap implementation with the most configurable interface, with tolerable html in email display. It is true that Mulberry's Imap is more complete, but I don't find it more trouble free. TheBat!'s IMAP handling is crude and unpredictable. I would never trust it in a production environment. The HTML display is not tolerable until we have the choice to display images. Crude and unpredictable. That would be Pocomail and Eudora. Thunderbird is what I chose to put my company on. The IMAP implementation is great. It is not complete, but average users won't notice unless they want to drag out the RFC :). At least I can save my sent mail to my IMAP sent items box, I can rely on the counters, I can leave it on as long as I want and it won't hang, I can filter my account Yes, if static message index columns, inability to set font sizes, and many other things is good enough, Thunderbird is good enough. and my number one pet peeve. I can mark items as deleted and they don't disappear from the inbox (when we used TB! this was the number one trouble call, accidental deletion) with Thunderbird, it is just lined through, the user can right click and undelete, no more hysterical calls. undelete is possible in TheBat!, it just isn't intuitive to the average user, gone is gone to them. Interesting. One of the things I positively didn't like about Mulberry was the necessity to delete messages twice. If I delete it, I want it to be gone. All gone. POP users have survived a long time without needing to deleting messages twice, why does this become necessary for Imap users? -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Sveiki, Alto, Guten Morgen, MS I'm complaining every six months or so about the company's MS politics and the priority of issues, bugs and stuff like this and MS it seems that I am the almost the only one who isn't happy with MS this. I'd rephrase that: You're one of the few that haven't given up yet. The others do not see it necessary to beg for features that were guaranteed years ago and have already been payed for. They have resigned to the fact that they have been ripped off. I guess I am going to have to disagree with that. TB Imap is not perfect, but it is the pick of my list which includes: Execuse me, but TB!'s IMAP is a crap. It's not even in alpha stage. In fact I haven't seen worse IMAP implementation. My students at university write better IMAP code in 4 to 6 weeks than Ritlabs did it in 4 years. -- Best regards, Vilius Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Vilius, I guess I am going to have to disagree with that. TB Imap is not perfect, but it is the pick of my list which includes: Execuse me, but TB!'s IMAP is a crap. It's not even in alpha stage. In fact I haven't seen worse IMAP implementation. My students at university write better IMAP code in 4 to 6 weeks than Ritlabs did it in 4 years. Interesting. What I see is that every single Imap client out there is either incomplete (like Thunderbird) or has problems worse than TB. I have heard from a well known email client programmer that this probably has something to do with the fact that the Imap specification is enormous. -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Gary, All this afternoon and yesterday, I am seeing an old bug recur over and over. This is where you click on a new email, and there is no message body. Hence, either this email is no longer there, or there is some other issue. The way to correct this is to Clear Catch Now... my question is why is this necessary on TB!'s implementation of IMAP? No other client requires me to clear the cache to read email properly at any time. It requires unnecessary steps just to read mail. It is bothersome, troubling, and tells me that IMAP is still not right. I cannot trust TB! IMAP for production use. I also subscribe to the Mulberry and Pegasus discussion lists. It is worthy of remark how many of my fellow subscribers are IT types who think developers should be guided by their needs. In the case of Mulberry, they have convinced Cyrus to take Mulberry open source after helping bankrupt it with their narrow vision of what an email client should be (no html, etc.). Again, I don't say that TB's Imap is perfect, just a respectable effort compared to how others have done. And Ritlabs remains commercially viable. I'm impressed. May they continue to not be guided by what IT types think they should do. -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hi Gleason, On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:45:51 -0400 UTC (10/12/2007, 7:45 PM -0500 UTC my time), Gleason Pace wrote: G Interesting. One of the things I positively didn't like about G Mulberry was the necessity to delete messages twice. If I delete it, G I want it to be gone. All gone. POP users have survived a long time G without needing to deleting messages twice, why does this become G necessary for Imap users? This is the IMAP protocol, deletion is a 2 step process, as stated in the RFC... a message is marked for deletion, then it is expunged. There is a feature in Mulberry where you delete a message or thread, and then when you go to another folder, or close the existing folder, it auto expunges or deletes the messages marked for deletion. It takes me 2 keystrokes to permanently delete threads for example. -- Gary Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hi Gleason, On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:19:32 -0400 UTC (10/12/2007, 8:19 PM -0500 UTC my time), Gleason Pace wrote: G I also subscribe to the Mulberry and Pegasus discussion lists. It is G worthy of remark how many of my fellow subscribers are IT types who G think developers should be guided by their needs. Since it is now open source, any one can be in the development. Over the many years of being on that list also, I have found the above not to be the case. G In the case of Mulberry, they have convinced Cyrus to take Mulberry open G source after helping bankrupt it with their narrow vision of what an G email client should be (no html, etc.). nothing can be farther from the truth from the above statement. The company that merged with Mulberry, (Cyrusoft) lost a big govt contract that they bid on. It is that simple. It had nothing to do with Mulberry the client or any IT people driving it in a certain direction. The above is totally false. -- Gary Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hi Gary, On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:23:37 -0500 UTC (10/12/2007, 8:23 PM -0500 UTC my time), Gary wrote: G Hi Gleason, G On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:45:51 -0400 UTC (10/12/2007, 7:45 PM -0500 UTC my G time), Gleason Pace wrote: G Interesting. One of the things I positively didn't like about G Mulberry was the necessity to delete messages twice. If I delete it, G I want it to be gone. All gone. POP users have survived a long time G without needing to deleting messages twice, why does this become G necessary for Imap users? G This is the IMAP protocol, deletion is a 2 step process, as stated in the G RFC... a message is marked for deletion, then it is expunged. There is a G feature in Mulberry where you delete a message or thread, and then when you G go to another folder, or close the existing folder, it auto expunges or G deletes the messages marked for deletion. It takes me 2 keystrokes to G permanently delete threads for example. I forgot to add that since you complain about deleting messages twice tells me you know nothing about IMAP protocol or standards, which is something Mulberry follows better than any other client. It is a complex protocol. So your complaints are that they follow the protocol exactly, and that is bad. Your above complaints are directed at Mulberry, where in reality it should be directed at the IMAP protocol. You dislike the messenger (Mulberry) for bringing you the bad news, not the sender, which in this case is the protocol/IMAP RFC :) -- Gary Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Gary, G In the case of Mulberry, they have convinced Cyrus to take Mulberry open G source after helping bankrupt it with their narrow vision of what an G email client should be (no html, etc.). nothing can be farther from the truth from the above statement. The company that merged with Mulberry, (Cyrusoft) lost a big govt contract that they bid on. It is that simple. It had nothing to do with Mulberry the client or any IT people driving it in a certain direction. The above is totally false. Good. Then perhaps you would agree that what gets used in a production environment might not necessarily be the largest concern that Rit might have with TB. -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hi Gleason, On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:45:18 -0400 UTC (10/12/2007, 8:45 PM -0500 UTC my time), Gleason Pace wrote: G In the case of Mulberry, they have convinced Cyrus to take Mulberry open G source after helping bankrupt it with their narrow vision of what an G email client should be (no html, etc.). nothing can be farther from the truth from the above statement. The company that merged with Mulberry, (Cyrusoft) lost a big govt contract that they bid on. It is that simple. It had nothing to do with Mulberry the client or any IT people driving it in a certain direction. The above is totally false. G Good. Then perhaps you would agree that what gets used in a G production environment might not necessarily be the largest concern G that Rit might have with TB. It should be their largest concern.. my definition of a production environment is that of using a software product day in and day out individually or within or upon a network of computers *without* problems. In other words, it is the opposite of either alpha or beta software, where you would not use a product/software for day to day activities, because it is inherently unstable or has too many bugs. Since I use IMAP and my clients all use IMAP on my servers, there are problems. They call me, taking my time (which is money) to answer problems related to IMAP and TB! I don't get IMAP calls when they use other email clients. -- Gary Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Gary, G This is the IMAP protocol, deletion is a 2 step process, as stated G in the RFC... a message is marked for deletion, then it is G expunged. There is a feature in Mulberry where you delete a G message or thread, and then when you go to another folder, or G close the existing folder, it auto expunges or deletes the G messages marked for deletion. It takes me 2 keystrokes to G permanently delete threads for example. I forgot to add that since you complain about deleting messages twice tells me you know nothing about IMAP protocol or standards, which is something Mulberry follows better than any other client. It is a complex protocol. So your complaints are that they follow the protocol exactly, and that is bad. Exactly, it is a complex and large protocol. That is why producing a really good implementation has eluded all comers to date. Not that Rit is ripping people off by not doing what they promised. Your above complaints are directed at Mulberry, where in reality it should be directed at the IMAP protocol. You dislike the messenger (Mulberry) for bringing you the bad news, not the sender, which in this case is the protocol/IMAP RFC Yes, it is that way because the specifications say it should be. I think Rit got it right by ignoring the specification on this one. Let them continue to be guided by what real people using their program might want. -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Gary, G Good. Then perhaps you would agree that what gets used in a G production environment might not necessarily be the largest concern G that Rit might have with TB. It should be their largest concern.. I see, so you still want Rit (and Cyrus) to be guided by the needs of IT types. my definition of a production environment is that of using a software product day in and day out individually or within or upon a network of computers *without* problems. Yes, that is what IT types want. I understand that Thunderbird gives you that. That is not the way most people use an email client. It is not the way I use it for that matter. It is the way IT managers use it. In other words, it is the opposite of either alpha or beta software, where you would not use a product/software for day to day activities, because it is inherently unstable or has too many bugs. I don't find this to be true of TB. Since I use IMAP and my clients all use IMAP on my servers, there are problems. They call me, taking my time (which is money) to answer problems related to IMAP and TB! I don't get IMAP calls when they use other email clients. You mean, when they use Thunderbird. If they use Pocomail, I can guarantee you that you would have a new conception of what it means to get support calls. Yes, your support costs should be your largest concern. Ritlabs and other developers should feel free to not consider this when they make decisions. -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: The Bat! 4.0
Hi Gleason, On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:58:59 -0400 UTC (10/12/2007, 8:58 PM -0500 UTC my time), Gleason Pace wrote: I forgot to add that since you complain about deleting messages twice tells me you know nothing about IMAP protocol or standards, which is something Mulberry follows better than any other client. It is a complex protocol. So your complaints are that they follow the protocol exactly, and that is bad. G Exactly, it is a complex and large protocol. Have you ever read it? G That is why producing a really good implementation has eluded all G comers to date. Again not true. you make a very big generalization upon a subject you obviously know nothing about. G Not that Rit is ripping people off by not doing what they promised. Since you don't know about the IMAP protocol or its basic fuctionality or features, or advanced features, I hardly think the above statement is credible. Your above complaints are directed at Mulberry, where in reality it should be directed at the IMAP protocol. You dislike the messenger (Mulberry) for bringing you the bad news, not the sender, which in this case is the protocol/IMAP RFC G Yes, it is that way because the specifications say it should be. I G think Rit got it right by ignoring the specification on this one. Let G them continue to be guided by what real people using their program G might want. Then why use any RFC protocol at all, even SMTP, or POP, or heck... now you can be Microsoft and just use what you want.. You are missing the point because you do not understand the problem. Generalizations do not help, and being sadly misinformed, e.g. the Mulberry history, are just ranting without knowledge. Sorry, gotta go and this is silly. -- Gary Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Gary, G Yes, it is that way because the specifications say it should be. I G think Rit got it right by ignoring the specification on this one. Let G them continue to be guided by what real people using their program G might want. Then why use any RFC protocol at all, even SMTP, or POP, or heck... now you can be Microsoft and just use what you want.. You are missing the point because you do not understand the problem. Generalizations do not help, and being sadly misinformed, e.g. the Mulberry history, are just ranting without knowledge. Sorry, gotta go and this is silly. IT types tend to consider those who disagree with them to be ignorant, uninformed, not worth conversing with. Yes, I have found that to be true as well. No, I am a software developer with a lot of years behind me. I have worked with just about every email client out there looking for the best I can get. No, I don't think you can dismiss my opinion that easily. -- Gleason Using 3.99.24 on Windows XP, 5.1, Build 2600. IMAP email provider is Fastmail, which uses Cyrus server software. Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
10/13/2007 12:23 AM Hi Gary, On 10/12/2007 Gary wrote: GB I don't get IMAP calls when they use other email GB clients. Seems you have already found the answer to your problem. -- Take Care, Paul Voyager v.3.99.4 on Win2k SP4-Rollup1 5.0.2195 No IMAP OTFE Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: The Bat! 4.0
Hello Martin, Friday, October 12, 2007, 9:04:47 PM, among other things, you wrote: MS I'm complaining every six months or so about the company's politics MS and the priority of issues, bugs and stuff like this and it seems that I am MS the almost the only one who isn't happy with this. You are not the only one. I think most of us have just got tired of banging our head against the Ritlabs brickwall. -- Best regards, Roger :flag-southafrica: The Bat! v3.99.24 with AntiSpamSniper 2.6.1.2, on Windows XP, version 5 1, build 2600 and Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.99.24 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
