Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

Before I reply on your suggested message (I need think about it a little 
bit first)... I'd like to make an observation ...

I think one of the reasons its not so easy to get the message exactly right 
is awareness that users are likely, unfortunately, NOT routinely 
backing-up. So the message of advised steps also has to kinda deal with 
that. BUT should it? IF we were SURE they were backing up then the message 
could be a lot simpler I think.

BECAUSE I run redundant backup that detects changes in a TW every 30 
minutes or so I would rarely follow your suggested steps. I'd just close 
(without saving) and re-open & if the problem came back I'd revert to a 
previous version.

I suppose what I am saying is *I don't see why TW creators should have to 
have the hassle of laying out complex steps because users are lazy about 
backup*. In a way I think they should ASSUME people back-up. But also give 
alerts, in the "Red Screen", to encourage them to do that if they aren't 
already. 

Backup is universally understood as a basic principle. Its likely one of 
the most straight-forward concepts you encounter in TW. I don't like to see 
you developers over-apologise when Users do need to take some ordinary, 
understandable, responsibility too.

I hope it is clear what I am saying. That whilst reminders of backups are a 
very good idea, especially in "crash" messages, I'd NOT try to address 
salvage in every post-crash scenario ultra-carefully. It just gets too 
complicated. IF you had decent recent backups already you'd simply bail out.

Best wishes
Josiah

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 14:50:26 UTC+1, PMario wrote:
>
> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 1:45:53 PM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> The impact on me when I was first using TW of Red Messages: they got me 
>> in a hot sweat. Till I realised they are rarely fatal. My single biggest 
>> issue has never been them. Its been browser crashes corrupting the TW file.
>>
>
> That's the problem. We actually don't know, if the system is in a "fatal 
> state". ... but it could be. 
>
>  So opening the file explorer and create a backup, before the next 
> save may be the best choice. ... I'll probably include this advice. 
>
>
>  
>
>> To be honest its the *AESTHETICS of the warnings* as much as anything 
>> that scared me, and likely for others who have no clear idea what is 
>> happening. 
>>
>
> OK. It should be scary!
>  
>
>> TBH, I'd rather have a message like ...
>>
>> *  DON'T PANIC.*
>>
>
> Good advice!
>  
>
>>
>> *There is a problem but it is likely not a disaster, just a small glitch.*
>>
>
> We really cant promise that. .. The internal state, may be broken and the 
> next save may hurt. Especially if users try out 3rd party software. .. 
>
>
>> *  To be safe, please close the window this TW is in and reopen it.*
>>
>
> That's exactly, what should be done. 
>  
>
>>
>>
>> * NOTA BENE: Please make sure that you always regularly backup your 
>> TiddlyWiki   because failures do happen & it would be a great shame if 
>> you lost your work.*
>>
>
> I like that. Backups are always good. 
>  
> --
>
> So the right thing to do is:
>
>
>   DON'T PANIC. There is a problem but it is likely not a disaster. 
>
>- Please open your file explorer and create a backup of your TW file. 
>- *Don't save, create the backup .. Now!*
>- After you did the backup, you can save this wiki. 
>- *To avoid data loss, please close and reopen the TiddlyWiki.*
>- Check the content.
>
>   NOTA BENE: Please make sure that you regularly backup your data,
>   because failures do happen & it would be a great shame if you lost 
> your work.
>
> what do you think. ... To complicated?
>
> -m
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0b59ffd4-ecbd-4f4d-9bbb-5590798bfc3a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[PMario]

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 1:45:53 PM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> The impact on me when I was first using TW of Red Messages: they got me in 
> a hot sweat. Till I realised they are rarely fatal. My single biggest issue 
> has never been them. Its been browser crashes corrupting the TW file.
>

That's the problem. We actually don't know, if the system is in a "fatal 
state". ... but it could be. 

 So opening the file explorer and create a backup, before the next save 
may be the best choice. ... I'll probably include this advice. 


 

> To be honest its the *AESTHETICS of the warnings* as much as anything 
> that scared me, and likely for others who have no clear idea what is 
> happening. 
>

OK. It should be scary!
 

> TBH, I'd rather have a message like ...
>
> *  DON'T PANIC.*
>

Good advice!
 

>
> *There is a problem but it is likely not a disaster, just a small glitch.*
>

We really cant promise that. .. The internal state, may be broken and the 
next save may hurt. Especially if users try out 3rd party software. .. 


> *  To be safe, please close the window this TW is in and reopen it.*
>

That's exactly, what should be done. 
 

>
>
> * NOTA BENE: Please make sure that you always regularly backup your 
> TiddlyWiki   because failures do happen & it would be a great shame if 
> you lost your work.*
>

I like that. Backups are always good. 
 
--

So the right thing to do is:


  DON'T PANIC. There is a problem but it is likely not a disaster. 

   - Please open your file explorer and create a backup of your TW file. 
   - *Don't save, create the backup .. Now!*
   - After you did the backup, you can save this wiki. 
   - *To avoid data loss, please close and reopen the TiddlyWiki.*
   - Check the content.
   
  NOTA BENE: Please make sure that you regularly backup your data,
  because failures do happen & it would be a great shame if you lost 
your work.

what do you think. ... To complicated?

-m

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/b9406e8c-cb26-4665-9abf-1f4d750a9020%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao all

Just a side comment of my experience as a user who doesn't really know what 
those messages mean other than "close it & restart." :-) 

The impact on me when I was first using TW of Red Messages: they got me in 
a hot sweat. Till I realised they are rarely fatal. My single biggest issue 
has never been them. Its been browser crashes corrupting the TW file.

To be honest its the *AESTHETICS of the warnings* as much as anything that 
scared me, and likely for others who have no clear idea what is happening. 

TBH, I'd rather have a message like ...








*  DON'T PANIC. There is a problem but it is likely not a disaster, just a 
small glitch.  To be safe, please close the window this TW is in and 
reopen it.  NOTA BENE: Please make sure that you always regularly 
backup your TiddlyWiki   because failures do happen & it would be a 
great shame if you lost your work.*A message something like that.

Having the message in Glaring Red may feel like a good idea. I think a 
softer colour like Light Pink would be just as good without the extreme 
aesthetic alert factor.

Just some thoughts.

Best wishes
Josiah

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/eea76ac3-f55f-4eb2-8a11-fe72cf7ab4f6%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[tejjyid]

That's my experience too. I've never seen it when it wasn't my fault. 
That's why I feel the apology is awkward, because mainly it will be the 
user at fault. The communication is well-intentioned, but it doesn't match 
the pragmatics of the situation. That kind of mismatch is what I was 
looking to avoid. But look, I don't want to waste your time on it. As a 
final compromise/suggestion, how about "Sorry, but this might be serious. 
To protect your data..." But I will absolutely be happy with your final 
call. Otherwise this kind of discussion can go on for years!

Thanks for taking the time over this.

Andrew   

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 21:33:39 UTC+11, PMario wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 11:03:52 AM UTC+1, tejjyid wrote:
>>
>> "We are sorry!" is better than "This is embarrassing", although I would 
>> omit both myself. I guess that depends on how often the RSOD is seen as a 
>> result of user activity, vs system bug appearance. Obviously in the latter 
>> case, if feels right to apologise. I prefer "To protect your data you need 
>> to restart TiddlyWiki". If we stick with "highly recommend", I prefer 
>> "restarting", but that may be Australian dialect.
>>
>
> IMO the core and tiddlywiki/plugins don't throw RSOD often. .. I 
> personally only see it during development. And there, I don't even read it, 
> since I have more info in the dev panel. .. 
>
> So for users I'd go with "We are sorry! ... " because, it really shouldn't 
> happen. 
>
> We could also provide a link, to open a new issue at github. Similar to this 
> one , that Mat and I 
> created at the last EU meeting. ... It didn't make to TW yet and I didn't 
> push it, since we already have enough pending PRs :/
>
> -m
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f0a41dc0-2218-437c-aef2-9eaf56fab31d%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[PMario]

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 11:03:52 AM UTC+1, tejjyid wrote:
>
> "We are sorry!" is better than "This is embarrassing", although I would 
> omit both myself. I guess that depends on how often the RSOD is seen as a 
> result of user activity, vs system bug appearance. Obviously in the latter 
> case, if feels right to apologise. I prefer "To protect your data you need 
> to restart TiddlyWiki". If we stick with "highly recommend", I prefer 
> "restarting", but that may be Australian dialect.
>

IMO the core and tiddlywiki/plugins don't throw RSOD often. .. I personally 
only see it during development. And there, I don't even read it, since I 
have more info in the dev panel. .. 

So for users I'd go with "We are sorry! ... " because, it really shouldn't 
happen. 

We could also provide a link, to open a new issue at github. Similar to this 
one , that Mat and I 
created at the last EU meeting. ... It didn't make to TW yet and I didn't 
push it, since we already have enough pending PRs :/

-m

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f30821f8-ca73-4055-9a83-f415e4227c3a%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[tejjyid]

"We are sorry!" is better than "This is embarrassing", although I would 
omit both myself. I guess that depends on how often the RSOD is seen as a 
result of user activity, vs system bug appearance. Obviously in the latter 
case, if feels right to apologise. I prefer "To protect your data you need 
to restart TiddlyWiki". If we stick with "highly recommend", I prefer 
"restarting", but that may be Australian dialect.

AW

On Saturday, 11 March 2017 20:23:53 UTC+11, PMario wrote:
>
> On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:05:14 AM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> As i've noted elsewhere "This is embarrassing" is not useful. You have no 
>> need to be embarrassed on my behalf - or indeed, your own, in the rare 
>> event that the error originates in TW core.
>>
>> I think I used that phrasing as a nod to a meme carried by Firefox and 
>> others (see below). I’d be happy to ditch it; it is a bit folksy for my 
>> tastes.
>>
>
> I can change the wording in PR #2799 
> , if you want. .. but 
> we have to be sure about the exact phrase, since it also affects all 
> translations. 
>
> I'd like to change the order of the arguments. eg: "We are sorry! To 
> protect your data we highly recommend to restart TiddlyWiki."
>
> -mario
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/03323f8b-0517-4dd7-9576-472fa60f9062%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[PMario]

On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:05:14 AM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> As i've noted elsewhere "This is embarrassing" is not useful. You have no 
> need to be embarrassed on my behalf - or indeed, your own, in the rare 
> event that the error originates in TW core.
>
> I think I used that phrasing as a nod to a meme carried by Firefox and 
> others (see below). I’d be happy to ditch it; it is a bit folksy for my 
> tastes.
>

I can change the wording in PR #2799 
, if you want. .. but 
we have to be sure about the exact phrase, since it also affects all 
translations. 

I'd like to change the order of the arguments. eg: "We are sorry! To 
protect your data we highly recommend to restart TiddlyWiki."

-mario

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/84f78626-fc6c-443c-aaa0-d89e3433d73c%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[tejjyid]

Thanks Jeremy. It's a good idea to expain *reason* in messages. "As a 
result of an error, you need to restart Tiddlywiki to protect your data" 
would be more communicatively effective. Or if you feel "need to" is too 
coercive "should" conveys the notion of recommendation nicely. If you are 
uncomfortable addressing the user directly, then "Tiddlywiki should be 
restarted to protect its/your data" may suit. I prefer the more direct 
approach.

As i've noted elsewhere "This is embarrassing" is not useful. You have no 
need to be embarrassed on my behalf - or indeed, your own, in the rare 
event that the error originates in TW core.

The problem with being half clever (me) is that you make a lot of bad 
guesses. Sorry you have to suffer for them. The information "Node was not 
found" is really not useful to the casual user, so there's no value in 
presenting it. The user who can make use of it will easily find it in the 
console. (I would probably have been asking about it anyway, despite that)

Cheers.

On Thursday, 9 March 2017 22:14:58 UTC+11, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew
>
> The “red screen of death” is triggered by untrapped JavaScript errors. In 
> general, there are no guarantees as to the internal state of the system 
> after an error because it will have been left in an intermediate state. 
> That’s why the only good general advice is to restart TiddlyWiki. In 
> practice, some errors are more recoverable than others, but continuing 
> after an RSOD is inherently risky.
>
> Roughly half the time when I get the RSOD, when I click on the offending 
> tiddler to amend it, I get another RSOD telling me Node is not defined. I 
> know that; I don't use it. I do my development in the browser. Why do I 
> need to see this message, and more particularly, why is not having Node - I 
> thought it was optional - so serious as to cause an RSOD?
>
>
> The error message here is referring to a variable called “Node”, which is 
> part of the standard DOM specification, and nothing to do with Node.js.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
>
> Thanks, Andrew
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com .
> To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/c31d7e18-23ac-4da1-b05c-9271f80e1445%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/e39c7db4-238b-42ec-87bd-ca56b21f65e4%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[Eric Weir]

Still a subscriber, but haven’t posted in a long time. I need help with 
something not TW related, but that I thought this group might have a thought 
about.

The email from Jeremy was in my mailbox this morning, but the “to” address was 
not mine. It was "h...@alph146.prodigy.net.” There were several other emails 
like this, legitimately mine but with a “to” address that was not mine. All had 
the same address except that the contained three digit number was different. 
E.g., an email from my healthcare provider seeking feedback on a recent 
doctor’s visit was address to "h...@alph133.prodigy.net. 

Other messages like this have been arriving throughout the morning, all 
seemingly from sources from which I regularly receive email, all with this 
incorrect “to” address but with a varying three-digit contained number.

It’s been suggest that these are phising attempts, and that I should not click 
on any of the the links in the messages, on the “click here to begin your 
survey” link in the message from my healthcare provider. These don’t seem like 
normal phising emails, which I take are usually/always sent to the correct “to” 
address.

Mystified? Any sense of what’s going on? Reason to be concerned?

Thanks,

Eric Weir


> On Mar 9, 2017, at 6:14 AM, Jeremy Ruston  wrote:
> 
> Hi Andrew
> 
> The “red screen of death” is triggered by untrapped JavaScript errors. In 
> general, there are no guarantees as to the internal state of the system after 
> an error because it will have been left in an intermediate state. That’s why 
> the only good general advice is to restart TiddlyWiki. In practice, some 
> errors are more recoverable than others, but continuing after an RSOD is 
> inherently risky.
> 
>> Roughly half the time when I get the RSOD, when I click on the offending 
>> tiddler to amend it, I get another RSOD telling me Node is not defined. I 
>> know that; I don't use it. I do my development in the browser. Why do I need 
>> to see this message, and more particularly, why is not having Node - I 
>> thought it was optional - so serious as to cause an RSOD?
> 
> The error message here is referring to a variable called “Node”, which is 
> part of the standard DOM specification, and nothing to do with Node.js.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Jeremy.
> 
>> 
>> Thanks, Andrew
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/c31d7e18-23ac-4da1-b05c-9271f80e1445%40googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/EA230369-272C-483A-B03C-DFA54A2E0FBF%40gmail.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"Our world is a human world." 

- Hilary Putnam





-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/6471212E-D48A-4997-9856-E85D2B166D2C%40bellsouth.net.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Andrew

The “red screen of death” is triggered by untrapped JavaScript errors. In 
general, there are no guarantees as to the internal state of the system after 
an error because it will have been left in an intermediate state. That’s why 
the only good general advice is to restart TiddlyWiki. In practice, some errors 
are more recoverable than others, but continuing after an RSOD is inherently 
risky.

> Roughly half the time when I get the RSOD, when I click on the offending 
> tiddler to amend it, I get another RSOD telling me Node is not defined. I 
> know that; I don't use it. I do my development in the browser. Why do I need 
> to see this message, and more particularly, why is not having Node - I 
> thought it was optional - so serious as to cause an RSOD?

The error message here is referring to a variable called “Node”, which is part 
of the standard DOM specification, and nothing to do with Node.js.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> 
> Thanks, Andrew
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com 
> .
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/c31d7e18-23ac-4da1-b05c-9271f80e1445%40googlegroups.com
>  
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
> .

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/EA230369-272C-483A-B03C-DFA54A2E0FBF%40gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] TW5 - Another RSOD suggestion

[tejjyid]

Roughly half the time when I get the RSOD, when I click on the offending 
tiddler to amend it, I get another RSOD telling me Node is not defined. I 
know that; I don't use it. I do my development in the browser. Why do I 
need to see this message, and more particularly, why is not having Node - I 
thought it was optional - so serious as to cause an RSOD?

Thanks, Andrew

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/c31d7e18-23ac-4da1-b05c-9271f80e1445%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.